Military Review

How the Bolsheviks took the Kremlin

229
The red project was fundamentally different in that it offered a new reality that corresponded to the ideal ideas of the masses. "Old Russia" committed suicide. In February, the 1917 of the year - and this must be clearly understood and remembered - came the end not only of the Russian Empire and the Romanov dynasty, but also the demolition of the former civilization project. It was a terrible disaster - the collapse of the whole of old Russia.


It was not the red commissars, soldiers, workers and peasants who killed her, but the masters of the former Russia themselves - the grand dukes, aristocrats, generals, landowners, bankers, industrialists, the liberal intelligentsia. Pandora's box was open. The social elite of Russia itself launched the mechanism of the Troubles - merciless and all-destructive. All "clamps" were destroyed! The church was emasculated under the Romanovs. And the Februaryists destroyed the last two “seals” - the autocracy and the army. Launched the mechanisms of hell on earth.

Now liberals, democrats like to accuse the Bolsheviks of repression, red terror, the cruel suppression of uprisings and insurrections. But they forget to say that The gates of hell in Russia were opened by representatives of the pro-Western liberal-democratic project (the future of the White project). They destroyed all the clamps, opened the gates to the underworld, and absolute evil flooded into the world. The sailors and soldiers, who were not yet Bolsheviks, seized and shot the officers; peasants smashed landowner estates and killed nobles; the criminal revolution began with thousands of victims; soldiers-marauders robbed trains, smashed food depots and wineries, kept entire settlements in fear; the old police was disbanded, the new militia was still being formed, it did not have professional personnel, forces and means, information (card files and archives were destroyed after the February coup); the Cossacks thought they were free, drove the workers and peasants from their regions, then became participants in the white terror and were marked by disgusting scenes of the total plunder of their own Russian population; ethnic minorities began to take revenge on Russians for "oppression" and "occupation"; in Russia there were many thousands of representatives of other nations (former prisoners of war), for example, Czechoslovakia, they created their own terror, etc.

Absolute evil destroyed Russian civilization and culture, devoured the lives of millions of people. It is necessary to forget forever the naive tales about bloody commissars and white knights, orthodox monarchists. Absolutely everything was covered in blood by ears. In the vast expanses of the fallen empire reigned endless violence. The war of all against all, without rules, without mercy. It was the agony of "old Russia". Her death. The wreckage of Russia fell under the authority of the countries of the West and the East. Russian people died. From this hell, Russia and the people were able to pull the Bolsheviks. And this could be done not with a prayer calling “let us live together”, not with a noble contemplation, but with resolute and tough actions, having a great idea and program for creating a new reality (project), and civilization. In a most surprising way, the Russian communists were able to pull Russia and the people out of the inferno, destroyed part of the enemies, discarded others, put things in order with a firm hand and created a new Russian empire - the Soviet Union. At a high price, but there was no other choice (except for the death of the entire millennial civilization and people), they restored the country, brought it out to world leaders. The advanced western project, “Eternal Reich”, defeated the destruction of Soviet civilization that defied the power of the masters of the West over the planet, won. We have achieved fantastic success in science, education, culture, space and the construction of defense. Thanks to this foundation, the current Russia alone exists.

The Bolsheviks had the image of a new reality, the idea - communism. For the common man, far from the theories of Marxism, he absorbed the features of the “golden age” (“primitive communism”), when there were no rich and poor, “Christian socialism” of the times of Christ and his apostles, when Christianity was not yet driven into the fold Church, expressing the interests of the spiritual and secular feudal lords, enslaved the common people. The communist "bright future" was the continuation of the Christian "kingdom of God." It is not by chance that a whole pleiad of Russian, Christian-minded thinkers were at the same time advocating socialism.

On the other hand, socialism, communism, a society of social justice were the antipodes, direct enemies of capitalism, the Western world of robbery, looting and appropriation, consumer society and degradation. Socialism stood on the powerful foundation of social justice, the rejection of the exploitation of the working masses, parasitism on people. At the championship of labor. Labor, activity and creation were on the banners of the new world. That is, October was in the interests of ordinary people. The overwhelming majority of the population of Russia - 95% of farmers and workers.

In this case, the Bolsheviks had the energy, will and faith in their victory. The core of the Bolsheviks were professional revolutionaries, iron people, who went through a school of exile and prisons. They were ready to die for the victory of a new reality. The Bolsheviks had an organization, a party that gathered and targeted the energy, will and faith of millions of people to create a new reality, a "bright future."

Thus, the Bolshevik turned out to be the only force that, after the death of the “old Russia” in February-March 1917, tried to create a new reality, a civilization in the interests of the overwhelming majority of the people. At the same time, the red project was one with the Russian matrix. (the idea of ​​social justice, ethics of conscience). The White project was in the interests of a small part of the Russian people and destroyed the foundations of the Russian matrix, which automatically led to the death of the entire Russian civilization and people. If it were not for the Bolsheviks, Russia would have finally collapsed and perished!

Bolsheviks take the Kremlin

The events in Moscow developed more dramatically than in Petrograd. On November 7, after news of the success of the uprising in Petrograd, the Moscow Bolsheviks set up their Fighting Center, sending people to the post office and agitators in the 56 Infantry Regiment barracks. They called on the soldiers to occupy the Kremlin, banks and other important objects, but the soldiers were in no hurry to execute it.

In the evening of November 7, a meeting of the Moscow City Duma, in which the majority were Social Revolutionaries (the Socialist Revolutionary Party), was decided to support the Provisional Government and establish the Public Security Committee (CBS), headed by Duma Chairman, Right Social Revolutionary Vadim Rudnev and Commander of the Moscow Military District Konstantin Ryabtsev. The KOB was supported by Moscow cadets and Cossacks located in the city. In the meantime, the Bolsheviks formed the Moscow Military Revolutionary Committee (MVRC), which demanded that the troops stationed in the city execute only its orders. On the night of November 8, soldiers who had gone over to the side of the MVRK broke into the printing houses and did not allow any newspapers to be printed, except for Izvestia and Sotsial-Demokrat. At the same time, the commandant of the Moscow Kremlin, at the request of the MVRC, began distributing to the workers weapon from arsenals.

On November 9, around the 300 officers and junkers gathered in the building of the Alexander Military School (in the area of ​​today's Arbat Square), which formed the core of the resistance to the Bolsheviks. A detachment of student volunteers who joined them called himself the “White Guard” (as opposed to the “Red Guard”), which is considered the date of birth of this term. In 18 hours, after learning of the advance of the ataman Krasny and Kerensky to the Petrograd, Konstantin Ryabtsev declared martial law in Moscow and advanced an MVCM ultimatum to surrender the Kremlin, disarm the rebel units and disband. On the same day, the cadets successfully attacked a detachment of the Reds - 45 people were killed or injured. In the evening, emboldened White Guards occupied the entire western part of Moscow right up to Dorogomilovo, repulsed the post office, the telegraph office and the telephone station. On November 10, the cadets entered the Kremlin and began to disarm the Reds who were there. At first, everything went peacefully, but then the soldiers and workers, seeing that there were very few junkers, resisted. White fired a machine gun. As a result, according to various sources, from 40 to 300 people were killed. The Moscow Revolutionary Committee declared a general strike and began to force detachments of workers and soldiers to the center.

11 November Moscow streets blocked the barricades and fierce fighting began. By the end of the day, Tverskaya Street and part of the Okhotny Ryad, Krymskaya Square, Taganskaya Square, the General Post Office, Kursky and Aleksandrovsky (now Belorussky) railway stations were red backed. The Bolsheviks began to use artillery, which led to the destruction of a number of buildings - from the Metropol Hotel to the temples of the Kremlin, which was shelled from the heights of the Sparrow Hills and Shviva Hill (Vshivaya Hill, aka Tagansky Hill), from the area of ​​the Babiegorodsk dam. During flights and missiles shells destroyed many houses, civilians were injured. Bishop Nestor of Kamchatka (Anisimov), who witnessed the bloodshed in Moscow and assisted the wounded, later wrote: “The Russian weapon, which was lacking for defense against a heavily armed enemy at the front at the beginning of the war, was now harvested, but, to the horror of our Homeland , it was not turned to the enemy, but to their own Russian brothers, to the execution of their native cities and shrines. ... For eight days, sitting in the basements, the unfortunate Moscow inhabitants in the shelling areas were forced to suffer and starve, because any way out of the house or basement threatened to be intentionally or unintentionally killed and shot. ” In the middle of the day, a truce was concluded - both sides hoped to gain time and wait for the reinforcements approach. By November 12, part of the whites (three cadet corps and the Alekseevskoe military school in Lefortovo) surrendered to the mercy of the Revolutionary Committee, although the cadets continued to hold the Kremlin.

At the same time, the Cossacks refused to recognize the new government. On November 7, Don Army Ataman Alexey Kaledin made a statement declaring the seizure of power in Petrograd as criminal, and stated that until the restoration of legitimate authority, the Troop Government assumes all power in the Don Region. On November 10, Kaledin supported the Kuban chieftain Alexander Filimonov, the Terek ataman Mikhail Karaulov and the Orenburg ataman Alexander Dutov. November 8 on Don, in Novocherkassk, under the leadership of General Mikhail Alekseev, the former chief of staff of the General Headquarters of the Supreme Commander of the tsarist army, began the formation of the so-called Alekseevskaya organization, which later became the main core of the Volunteer White Army.

November 14 Red Guards and soldiers who managed to take control of most of the city, increased shelling of the building of the city Duma (today Lenin Museum on Red Square) and the Kremlin, where the retreating cadets and members of the COB sat down. During the battles, Uspensky, Blagoveshchensky, Archangelsky, Nikolo-Gostunsky Cathedrals, the Miracles Monastery, the Cathedral of the Twelve Apostles, Ivan the Great Bell Tower, the Patriarch's sacristy, the Small Palace and some Kremlin towers, including Nikolskaya, Beklemishevskaya, were damaged (the upper tower was completely destroyed). part) and Spasskaya (among other things, the clockwork of the Kremlin chimes was damaged).

By the evening of November 15, an agreement was reached between the Committee for Public Security and the MVRC on the disarmament of the cadets, officers and students defending the Kremlin, who were then to be released. At 9 in the evening, the Revolutionary Committee issued an order: “The revolutionary troops won, the junkers and the White Guard surrender their weapons. The public security committee is dissolved. All the forces of the bourgeoisie are utterly defeated and surrender, having accepted our demands. ” 15 November was published manifesto MVRK, proclaimed in Moscow, the power of the Soviets, that is, in fact the Bolsheviks. Finally, the last whites were disarmed on November 16.

How the Bolsheviks took the Kremlin

Damage to the walls of the Cathedral of the Twelve Apostles after the shelling of the Kremlin. Moscow. November 1917 of the year

Thus, the uprising in Moscow, in contrast to Petrograd, led to a bloody clash. In total, several hundred people died on both sides during the fighting and massacres in Moscow. Many of the participants in the battles in Moscow - officers and junker (white), later made their way to the Don and continued the fight.

Writer M. Gorky quite accurately conveyed the essence of this event: “In essence, the Moscow massacre was a nightmarish bloody beating of babies. On the one hand, there are young Red Guards who do not know how to hold guns in their hands, and soldiers who almost do not give themselves an account: who are they going to die for, what are they killing for? On the other hand, there is an insignificant quantitatively small group of junkers who courageously perform their “duty” as inspired by them. ” Unfortunately, this was only the beginning of a bloody massacre that would soon cover the whole of Russia.

It was one of the first outbreaks of the Civil War. However, at the beginning of the opposition t n. whites did not have the strength for a serious confrontation. The Bolsheviks rather easily suppressed individual centers of resistance, which led to the “triumphal march of Soviet power” throughout the country. For a full-scale war, completely different organizational capabilities and resources were needed. They were only among the open enemies of the German bloc and the former "partners" of Russia in the Entente - Germany, Austria-Hungary, Turkey, England, France, the USA and Japan.


Small Nicholas Palace in the Kremlin, damaged by artillery fire during the battles for Moscow
Author:
Articles from this series:
Smoot 1917 of the year

100 anniversary of the February Revolution
What ruined Tsarist Russia?
Nicholas II had no chance of retaining power.?
How Nicholas II abdicated the throne
"Russia plunged into the swamp of a dirty and bloody revolution"
The war for absolute power on the planet
Russian intelligentsia against the "kingdom of darkness"
The myth of the "Jewish Revolution" in Russia
How the Februaryists destroyed the army
How Kerensky became the destroyer of Russia and the Russian army
How the feudalists unleashed a civil war in Russia
How the Februaryists officially "buried" the Russian Empire
October saved Russia
The Bolsheviks began to implement a new development project, saving not only Russia, but the whole of humanity
Why did the Bolsheviks defeat
Why lost the White Project
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  1. Olgovich
    Olgovich 13 November 2017 07: 30 New
    11
    What is a Russian matrix, who knows? I have not seen this among the Bolsheviks. I think they would be very surprised if they knew that they were creating it.

    Colonel Rudnev, commandant of Moscow, had all the forces and means to suppress the anti-government anti-Russian rebellion, but betrayed the people and the oath.
    He was subsequently arrested by the legitimate armed forces for surrendering Moscow and destroyed. And rightly so.
    1. Finches
      Finches 13 November 2017 08: 24 New
      24
      I will leave without my personal comments and turn to the classics, unfortunately, we are listening to the great princes, forgetting to ask - how did the ordinary people live:

      The great Russian writer and thinker Leo Tolstoy

      Here is how he described his trip to several dozen villages of different counties at the very end of the 19th century:
      “In all these villages, although there is no mixture of bread, as it was in 1891, they don’t give bread, although clean,. There is no welding of millet, cabbage, potatoes, even the majority. The food consists of grass cabbage soup, whitened if there is a cow, and unbleached if there is none, and only bread.In all these villages, most of the villages have sold and mortgaged everything that can be sold and mortgaged.
      From Gushchin I went to the village of Gnevyshevo, from which two days ago peasants came, asking for help. This village consists, like Gubarevka, of 10 courtyards. At ten yards there are four horses and four cows; almost no sheep; all houses are so old and bad they barely stand. Everyone is poor, and everyone is begging to help them. “If only the kids had a rest,” the women say. "And then they ask for folders (bread), but there is nothing to give, it will not fall asleep evenly" ...
      I asked to exchange three rubles for me. There was no ruble of money in the whole village ... In the same way, the rich, who make up around 20% everywhere, have a lot of oats and other resources, but besides this, landless soldiers' children live in this village. A whole settlement of these inhabitants has no land and is always in poverty, but now it is with expensive bread and with sparing giving of alms in terrible, terrifying poverty ...
      A tattered dirty woman emerged from the hut, near which we stopped, and went to a pile of something lying on a pasture and covered with a tattered caftan that was torn everywhere. This is one of her 5's children. A three-year-old girl is sick in extreme heat with a kind of influenza. Not that there is no talk of treatment, but there is no other food than the crusts of bread that the mother brought yesterday, leaving the children and running away with a bag for requisitions ... The husband of this woman left spring and did not return. These are approximately many of these families ...
      We, adults, if we are not crazy, we could seem to understand where the hunger of the people. First of all, he - and every man knows that - he
      1) from the shortage of land, because half of the land is from landowners and merchants who trade both land and bread.
      2) from factories and plants with those laws under which the capitalist is fenced, but the worker is not protected.
      3) from vodka, which is the main income of the state and to which the people have been accustomed for centuries.
      4) from the soldiery who selects the best people from him in the best time and corrupts them.
      5) from officials who oppress the people.
      6) from taxes.
      7) from ignorance in which government and church schools consciously support it.
      The farther into the depths of Bogoroditsky district and closer to Efremovsky, the worse and worse the situation ... Almost nothing was born on the best lands, only seeds returned. Almost everyone has bread with a quinoa. Quinoa here is unripe, green. The white nucleolus, which usually occurs in it, is not at all, and therefore it is not edible.
      You cannot eat bread with a quinoa alone. If you eat one bread on an empty stomach, it will vomit. From kvass made on flour with a swan, people go naughty. "


      Another classic of Russian literature, Vladimir Galakteonovich Korolenko:

      He lived in the villages for many years and organized the distribution of food loans and canteens for the starving.

      "You are a fresh person, stumble upon a village with dozens of typhoid patients, see a sick mother bend over the cradle of a sick child to feed him, lose consciousness and lie above him, and there is nobody to help, because her husband mumbles on the floor in incoherent delirium. And you be horrified. And the "old servant" got used to it. He already experienced it, he was horrified twenty years ago, got sick, boiled over, calmed down ... Typhoid? But we always have this! Quinoa? Yes, we have this one every year! "
      1. avt
        avt 13 November 2017 11: 56 New
        +9
        Quote: Finches
        The great Russian writer and thinker Leo Tolstoy
        Here is how he described his trip to several dozen villages of different counties at the very end of the 19th century:
        “In all these villages, although there is no mixture of bread, as it was in 1891, they don’t give bread, although clean,. There is no welding of millet, cabbage, potatoes, even the majority. The food consists of grass cabbage soup, whitened if there is a cow, and unbleached if there is none, and only bread.In all these villages, most of the villages have sold and mortgaged everything that can be sold and mortgaged.

        Well, then tell Tolstoy that although he’s a block, he’s a lie human! ” bully Here we go
        Olgovich
        laid out
        Campaigning for the Bolsheviks, you can’t give figures; campaigning is reversed! lol pound is
        0,41 kg, respectively, during the terrible war in 1916, each person in the working-class family ate 285 kg of bread and 31,1 kg of meat! During the onset of socialism in 1937, he ate 192 kg of bread and meat-18 kg. -Without any war

        You and Tolstoy and other korolenki cannot be fooled here! bully We, the “bakers”, are from the noble assembly of the Proletarsky district. They know everything and they will tell the truth. bully
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 13 November 2017 14: 12 New
          +7
          Quote: avt
          You and Tolstoy and other korolenki cannot be fooled here! We have, “bakers” are from the noble assembly of the Proletarsky district. They all know what and they’ll tell the truth

          You are a boring FIGURES of statistics to refute: this is not Tolstoy, you will not get sick here, rattle-do not manage! lol
          1. Varyag_0711
            Varyag_0711 13 November 2017 14: 19 New
            20
            Olgovich Today, 14: 12 ↑
            You boring figures of statistics to deny
            "Boring digits statistics" sucked by you from a finger? To refute what is necessary? What statistics, where? And your opuses about the jelly rivers and milk shores for the people in the Republic of Ingushetia have already been refuted 100500 thousand times. Can you come up with something smarter, or haven’t you brought in new manuals?
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 13 November 2017 15: 06 New
              +7
              Quote: Varyag_0711
              "Boring digits statistics" sucked from your finger? To refute what is necessary?

              Documents of the Russian Federal Archives, comrade Varangian, this is NOT a finger, not at all! This is the source of knowledge. State!
              You can also (like all of us) fall to it: http: //istmat.info/node/18419 yes
              PS Theme of the article, by the way, about the Russian Kremlin yes
              In which, by the way, the "Russians" Bolsheviks demolished 28 of the 54 buildings.
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 13 November 2017 15: 12 New
                +3
                I don’t understand what you fall for more from time to time. belay laughing
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 November 2017 15: 17 New
                  +6
                  Quote: avva2012
                  I don’t understand what you get to from time to time. belay laughing

                  We adhere, comrade Abba, we fall to the sources of knowledge! yes Archives are the liveliest of them, yes! hi
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 13 November 2017 15: 38 New
                    +6
                    Ahhh, life-giving? The Ministry of Health warns that excessive seizure is harmful to health. wink
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 13 November 2017 15: 41 New
                      +4
                      Quote: avva2012
                      Ahhh, life-giving? The Ministry of Health warns that excessive seizure is harmful to health. wink

                      And we are little by little: for health! yes
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 13 November 2017 16: 01 New
                        +4
                        Now, that’s another matter. But anyway, now there are so many chatters, they are masking it so that you can easily get to the wrong source. And then, allopecia, accommodation spasm and other symptoms of intoxication. laughing
                2. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 14 November 2017 05: 33 New
                  +9
                  He has a document. About personal great-grandfather's house in St. Petersburg. Here he falls to him.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 14 November 2017 07: 54 New
                    +2
                    Quote: mordvin xnumx
                    He has a document. About personal great-grandfather's house in St. Petersburg. Here he falls to him.

                    Documents did not survive, alas. And the apartment in St. Petersburg was. He visited her after 90 years: as the sailors broke the door in November 1917, so she stayed, only repaired
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 14 November 2017 07: 56 New
                      +6
                      C'mon, don't be offended. I just got out of the bath, missed the site.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 14 November 2017 10: 19 New
                        +1
                        Quote: mordvin xnumx
                        C'mon, don't be offended. I just got out of the bath, missed the site.

                        Bathhouse in the morning ?! It remains only to envy! good
                        No offense, no reason! hi

              2. badens1111
                badens1111 13 November 2017 15: 20 New
                +8
                Quote: Olgovich
                In which, by the way, the "Russians" Bolsheviks demolished 28 of the 54 buildings.

                Well, the province went to write, and Catherine 2, built everything from scratch?
                Plans for a large-scale restructuring of the Moscow Kremlin, developed during the reign of Empress Catherine II, laid the foundation for the gradual destruction of the former appearance of Ivanovskaya Square. In the 1770s, in connection with the planned construction of a new building of the Grand Kremlin Palace, the 1817th century clerical chambers were demolished. In 1851, the same fate befell the church of Nikolai Gostunsky, whose main throne was transferred to the bell tower of Ivan the Great. Under Emperor Alexander II, the construction of the Small Nikolaevsky Palace, begun as early as 1898 by the architect K. A. Ton on the site of the Platonov Bishop’s House, is nearing completion. The formation of the new architectural appearance of Ivanovo Square completed the creation in XNUMX of the monument to Emperor Alexander II “The Liberator” (sculptor A. M. Opekushin, artist P. V. Zhukovsky, architect N. V. Sultanov).
                Subsequent the same right here from scratch all built?
                And what are these to blame?
                In the 1838th century, the ensemble of the last, fifth in a row Kremlin square, called the Palace or the Imperial, was created. This happened after, in the years 1850-XNUMX, on the site of the ancient Grand Ducal Palace of Ivan III and the palace of Empress Elizabeth Petrovna built on its basis in the eighteenth century, the architect K.A. Ton erected the buildings of the new imperial palace.
                What is your petty and deceitful state of mind and your comments ..
                http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/3537344/post2965
                19666 /
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 13 November 2017 15: 32 New
                  +6
                  Quote: badens1111
                  What is your petty and deceitful state of mind and your comments ..

                  Once again, for lol tankmen:: Bolsheviks demolished 28 of the 54 buildings .As well as tens of thousands of churches, chapels, monasteries, monuments of glory of Russia - all over the country. All the Russian people cared, yes
                  Refute the FACT.
                  1. badens1111
                    badens1111 13 November 2017 15: 50 New
                    11
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Refute the FACT.

                    To refute what?
                    I do not intend to engage in stupid discussion.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    tens of thousands of churches, chapels, monasteries,

                    Yes, yes .. at the same time, THOUSANDs of factories and factories were built, escaped into Space, and some sort of Olgovich was like old gray in bast shoes and onuchs, sitting on the porch and dropping .. "about whom I lost"
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 13 November 2017 21: 32 New
                      +3
                      Quote: badens1111
                      To refute what?

                      What a strange "inhibition", comrade badads?
                      THIRD TIME I say: the fact of the destruction of the most valuable historical monuments of RUSSIA and the RUSSIAN people. The most valuable and unique!
                      Quote: badens1111
                      tens of thousands of churches, chapels, monasteries,
                      Yes, yes .. at the same time built THOUSAND factories and factories, broke into space

                      Thousands of monuments of GLORY OF RUSSIA and its HEROES were destroyed: the Column of Glory of Russia, the main monument of the Glory of the Borodino field, the tomb of Prince Bagration is blown up and his bones are scattered near the road, destroyed the grave of General Dokhturov, monuments to the heroes of the Second World War, etc., etc.

                      And the Americans built, jokingly, the main factories of the USSR sterilization. AND OTHER countries built factories and schools and, which is significant, WITHOUT any Bolsheviks.
                      And they flew into space-WITHOUT them. Like Russia, it would have flown WITHOUT them: ALL scientists of the atomic and space projects were trained in the IMPERIAL Universities of Russia, by imperial scientists and teachers.
                      Learn the history of Russia and love it!
                      1. badens1111
                        badens1111 13 November 2017 22: 06 New
                        +7
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        THIRD TIME I say: the fact of the destruction of the most valuable historical monuments of RUSSIA and the RUSSIAN people. The most valuable and unique!

                        What kind?
                        And who will be responsible for the destruction of industry like you?
                        Over 15 million not surviving because of you in 90?
                        Speculation
                        your everything, nothing sacred, in you and your kind is not.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        major sterilization plants C

                        Moldovan wine hit in the head? Or whiskey sorted out?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Like Russia, it would have flown WITHOUT them: ALL scientists of the atomic and space projects were trained in the IMPERIAL Universities of Russia, by imperial scientists and teachers.

                        And the first "kozmonaut" was Nikolashka 2. Isn't that so?
                        Judging by the scribble, tightly vypimy, if so directly carries nonsense?
                        You’ll lie in an environment of your own kind.
                    2. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 14 November 2017 10: 40 New
                      +1
                      Quote: badens1111
                      What kind?
                      And who will be responsible for the destruction of industry like you?
                      Over 15 million not surviving because of you in 90?
                      Speculation

                      TRUTH, comrade badance, you are given a specific cruel truth for you. The answer is... Again empty chatter in response to specific allegations of specific crimes. Not ashamed?
                      scientists and teachers.
                      And the first "kozmonaut" was Nikolashka 2. Isn't that so?
                      Judging by the scribble, tightly vypimy, if so directly carries nonsense?
                      You’ll lie in an environment of your own kind.
                      Learn the HISTORY of our Homeland, comrade. badnes! Then you will learn about Albert Kahn and the biography of ALL authors of space and nuclear projects, studied at the Imperial Technical School and the St. Petersburg Polytechnic Institute of Emperor Peter the Great, etc.
                      . I was not too lazy and looked at the biographies of these scientists. So I advise you to stay calm. And it’s even inconvenient for you, comrade baden lol
                      1. badens1111
                        badens1111 14 November 2017 15: 33 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        TRUTH, comrade badance, you are given a specific cruel truth for you.

                        The lies, gossip and distortion in your presentation cannot be true.
                        You don’t know the history of the Motherland. Biographies of scientists, it’s wonderful, but it would not hurt you to know if there weren’t the Soviet government, whose first decrees were care for scientists, the creation of universities, these scientists would not have been, as was usual in tsarist Russia because inertia and laziness of the ruling class.
                        http://leninism.su/books/3601-lenin-nauka-i-prosv
                        eshhenie.html? showall = 1
                        Enlighten yourself.
                        And learn to be an illiterate plagiarist, write at least a nickname correctly, or you’re drunken, just because of your inherent rudeness and so not very great mind, enough for a miserable mosquito bite instead of arguments.
                    3. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 14 November 2017 11: 05 New
                      +1
                      Quote: badens1111
                      Christ the Savior? Nothing!
                      Demolished by agreement with the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church, as representing no value.

                      Cathedral of Christ the Savior-Monument to the Heroes of OV 1812, with memorial plaques of the Russian HEROES of the war -did not represent value ?! What is Russian in you, comrade baden? Besides bad Russian? As much as in those of plaques with the names of heroes made marble chips for park paths
                      The absurd FALSE of the Church's consent to the demolition of the Temple, on whom is it considered? Are you reassuring yourself?
                      PS are afraid of the answer for their lies and turned off the comments, well done!
                      1. badens1111
                        badens1111 14 November 2017 15: 54 New
                        +3
                        Demolished by agreement with the Church. Learn History.
                        Now the realities of our time.
                        The Novo-Tikhvin Nunnery, Marina Sakharova, posted on Facebook photos of the demolished monastery. Built in 1782, the building was put on state guard in 1974 and, after the transfer of the Russian Orthodox Church, was closed for restoration.
                        87T Dekabristov Street, part of the ensemble of the Novo-Tikhvin Monastery disappeared. This was discovered by the founder of the organization "Real History", which was described on her Facebook page. The Assumption Church was built in 1782, its construction is associated with the name of the architect M.P. Malakhov. The building was put on state guard back in Soviet times, in 1974. Six years ago he was transferred to the possession of the Novo-Tikhvin Monastery.

                        The disappearance of the monument of the XVIII century was noticed on April 11, while since 2015 the building has been closed for restoration. Then the public men noted that the gate was immediately demolished at the church. Now caring citizens are asking themselves what happened to the monument.
                        https://ekburg.tv/novosti/gorod/2017-04-20/v_cent
                        re_ekaterinburga_propala_cerkov_xviii_veka

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The absurd FALSE of the Church's consent to the demolition of the Temple, on whom is it considered? Are you reassuring yourself?

                        Your ignorance of the question does not surprise. Who wants to find, related to this question, will find.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        What is Russian in you, comrade baden? Besides bad Russian?

                        Much more than in you, for you are a Russophobic counterfeiter.
                        Much smarter than those who wrote at least this.
                        http://vestnik-mgou.ru/Articles/Doc/742
                    4. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 15 November 2017 11: 32 New
                      0
                      Quote: badens1111
                      The lies, gossip and distortion in your presentation cannot be true.

                      WHITENING Bones of Prince Bagration, thrown out of your grave blown up by you, blown up by you and looted monuments of Russian Glory is a cruel TRUTH, you are afraid of it, like a devil incense. That's about Bagration-they pretended not to notice. Why? Is it really embarrassing?
                      Biographies of scientists, this is wonderful, but it would not hurt you to know if there weren’t the Soviet government, whose first decrees were care for scientists, the creation of a university, there wouldn’t be these scientists

                      Hypocrisy and hypocrisy is your sorbence, as is illiteracy. 14 academicians of the RAS Died of Starvation, i.e. from your “care”, Vernadsky and Oldenburg and others were in prison, they shot some scientists, sent them to the labor front, they all went hungry, all from “worries. Once again for the tank crew: ALL scientists of atomic and cosmos projects learned at IMPERIAL Universities and IMPERIAL educators. Chop yourself on the nose, finally, or deny it, Comrade unable to do it.
                      ALL institutions created by Sovietsexistedthey are childbirth from Commission for the Study of Natural Productive Forces of Russia (KEPS). For example, the Radium Institute was created by Vernadsky (a Soviet scientist, lol ) from the radar department of KEPS, its leaders and employees are from KEPS-Bushilov, Khlopin, Mysovsky and pr-RUSSIAN scientists who have learned and become scientists before the riot. But EVERYTHING is learned after the riot-learned at IMPERIAL Universities
                      Learn the FACTS and primary sources, otherwise you are always in a puddle lol
                      PSZ You tortured with your nickname: well, I was mistaken, so what? I am mistaken in other words, so what now? request
                  2. avva2012
                    avva2012 13 November 2017 16: 09 New
                    +9
                    Oh, in vain you do not watch Yegor Yakovlev and Klim Zhukov. And then it’s a long time to type letters explaining that the destroyed churches were basically simply not used for their intended purpose, because, after separation from the state and the lack of sponsors for technical reasons, stupidly, the Russian Orthodox Church did not have money to support them. So those churches that went under warehouses and other facilities were saved by the Soviet government. Well, and the churches, which were architectural monuments, mainly stood on the balance of the state, they were restored, restored for example (Kiev Pechersk Lavra), St. Isaac's Cathedral and many, many. Apparently, you were not in the black earth and in the Ukrainian SSR. How many active churches were there, have not been seen.
                    1. wax
                      wax 13 November 2017 19: 43 New
                      +7
                      In Zhizdra of the Kaluga region now, my hometown, the existing Alexander Nevsky Cathedral was destroyed by the Germans upon retreat, near 10 km in the settlement near the railway station The station was destroyed by the Germans during the retreat. So not only the superhistorical buildings were preserved, but the Soviets kept the required number of churches for the Orthodox people almost within walking distance.
                    2. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 13 November 2017 21: 53 New
                      +2
                      Quote: avva2012
                      Oh, in vain you do not watch Yegor Yakovlev and Klim Zhukov. And then it’s a long time to type letters explaining that the destroyed churches were basically simply not used for their intended purpose, because, after separation from the state and the lack of sponsors for technical reasons, stupidly, the Russian Orthodox Church did not have money to support them.

                      Do you even know what was destroyed, what monasteries and temples, monuments? WHAT do you know besides the Cathedral of Christ the Savior? Nothing!
                      Otherwise, they would not have been talking with such cynicism about the Russian tragedy.
                      Destroyed: The most beautiful copy of the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Petrozavodsk, the largest miracle Cathedral in Asia in Irkutsk, the Miracles Monastery in the Kremlin, and more and more. WHO asked the church - maybe it can't contain ?!
                      The Russian soul that was invested in them was crippled! Is it really not clear?
                      1. badens1111
                        badens1111 13 November 2017 22: 10 New
                        +7
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Do you even know what was destroyed, what monasteries and temples, monuments? WHAT do you know besides the Cathedral of Christ the Savior? Nothing!

                        Demolished by agreement with the leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church, as representing no value.
                        And now, long-maned do not differ in morality, it is not in vain that they drove them in the country.
                        Borisoglebsky Monastery

                        One of the researchers and restorers of the Borisoglebsky monastery in Dmitrov, Sergei Gavrilov in 2000, recalled how a monument of architecture passed under church control. According to him, the first question of the future head priest of the temple, Archimandrite Roman, concerned the gate: is it possible to make the Holy Gates so that it can enter through them by car. Later, the clergyman was satisfied with the economic Front Gate.
                        When the city library liberated the abbot’s home in 1993, the clergy simply left the rest of the books on the fire. Then they dismantled the north-west tower of the XVII century, which was a historical image of the Borisoglebsky monastery. The new owners of the temple unearthed a seven-hundred-year-old cemetery. Human remains from the earth were excavated by an excavator. The hieromonks of the monastery betrayed several boxes with the bones according to the Orthodox rite, the rest was simply loaded onto dump trucks and taken to a dump along with the foundation of the Dmitrov labor camp (dmitlag) with protruding concrete gravestones. The archimandrite refused the proposal to make of plates a common basis for a large memorial cross. Also, the foundation of an unknown building that existed before the XNUMXth century, the initial white stone thresholds, part of the vaults of the cellars and the basement of the XNUMXth-century cathedral, went to the landfill. The abbot cells of the XVII century were completely redone, although their reconstruction took place shortly before the "overhaul".
                        http://nnm.me/blogs/rus001/razrushenie-i-novodel-
                        chto-proishodit-s-hramami-kotorye-zabiraet-rpc
                      2. avva2012
                        avva2012 14 November 2017 02: 31 New
                        +7
                        As for Irkutsk, I don’t need to fill the tanks, Olgovich. This cathedral did not represent value, although it was big. Yes, and the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, excuse me, of cultural value, unlike other preserved and carefully restored, the same. Well, as for the crippled soul, right now, I'm crying
                    3. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 14 November 2017 11: 16 New
                      +2
                      Quote: avva2012
                      As for Irkutsk, I don’t need to fill the tanks, Olgovich. This cathedral did not represent value, although it was big. Yes, and the Cathedral of Christ the Savior, excuse me, of cultural value, unlike other preserved and carefully restored, the same. Well, as for the crippled soul, right now, I'm crying

                      Did you single him out, a "specialist" in Russian architecture?
                      Who gave you the right to judge is good, bad? Who are you?
                      This is not your property, it does not apply to you: it is not your business!
                      sob from tenderness over the Irkutsk House of Soviets (ugliness is rare, but Bolshevik)lol , enjoy the swimming pool "Moscow" -you only managed to master it! lol
                      1. long in stock.
                        long in stock. 14 November 2017 19: 21 New
                        +2
                        Strabatovsky dropout gives advice on architecture ... I'm wallowing ...
                      2. avva2012
                        avva2012 15 November 2017 05: 27 New
                        +1
                        I judge by the fact that other temples remained in the city of Irkutsk and carefully preserved, as architectural values ​​recognized by experts. What prevented the Bolsheviks from blowing them all up? A similar question in your head did not arise? Or can I see, but I can’t see here? The temples of Suzdal, Zagorsk and in general, all, the "Golden Ring", who did they keep? I repeat once again for military builders, the Cathedral of Christ the Savior was a remake, it did not represent architectural value and does not represent until now if you visited it. Pompous squalor. A sufficient number of such temples were made throughout the country, albeit not one in one, and of a smaller size. The ROC did not have money after separation from the state. There were not enough parishioners at all the temples. Where the parish was, churches were preserved, even if they were not works of art. For example, in our village of Thelma. Although, in my opinion, the temple is beautiful. No one forbade church attendance. Atheistic propaganda was on the one hand, but that’s all, up to Khrushchev. Here, he, an unprintable word, with a penchant for voluntarism and a clear Trotskyist, began to close the church. But that's another story.
                    4. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 15 November 2017 11: 58 New
                      0
                      I judge by the fact that other temples remained in the city of Irkutsk and carefully preserved, as architectural values ​​recognized by experts. What prevented the Bolsheviks from blowing them all up? A similar question in your head did not arise? Or can I see, but I can’t see here? The temples of Suzdal, Zagorsk and in general, all, the "Golden Ring", who did they keep? I repeat once again for military builders, the Cathedral of Christ the Savior was a remake, it did not represent architectural value and does not represent until now if you visited it. Pompous squalor. A sufficient number of such temples were made throughout the country, albeit not one in one, and of a smaller size. The ROC did not have money after separation from the state. There were not enough parishioners at all the temples. Where the parish was, churches were preserved, even if they were not works of art. For example, in our village of Thelma. Although, in my opinion, the temple is beautiful. No one forbade church attendance. Atheistic propaganda was on the one hand, but that’s all, up to Khrushchev. Here, he, an unprintable word, with a penchant for voluntarism and a clear Trotskyist, began to close the church. But that's another story.
                      Ahh, not everyone blew it up, so thank you too ?! fool
                      When it finally comes, it was NOT YOUR TEMPLE! And you do not judge what to demolish, what is not, what is valuable, what is not.In addition, you blew up the grave of Bagration and the column of Glory of Russia, Miracles Monastery- and so on and so forth is your level of culture and your artistic "specialists."
                      Do you know how many temples, chapels, monuments there were before you? do not know. Do you know how much survived until your end in 1987? You don’t know again.
                      You mention Suzdal "saved", not knowing what BEAUTY you destroyed there, the majestic Trinity Cathedral, etc. HOW can you not be ashamed of that ?! request
                      In you says -Lack of knowledge of the history of the motherland
                      1. badens1111
                        badens1111 15 November 2017 12: 11 New
                        +3
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        In you says -Lack of knowledge of the history of the motherland

                        Are you talking about yourself? Of course, Mr. collector of Chernukha and other trash.
                        Say thank you that the state has preserved the Trinity and Pechersk Lavra, understanding their significance. And what was thrown by your clericals, due to the absence of parishioners, is a fact that is indisputable, this is your problem.
                        Alexander Matrosov, Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya and her brother Sasha, the Barbashov brothers, millions of their peers who died for their homeland, much more holy in their feat than your Nikolas and other useless ones.
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 15 November 2017 13: 19 New
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You mention Suzdal "saved", not knowing what BEAUTY you destroyed there, the majestic Trinity Cathedral, etc. HOW can you not be ashamed of that ?!
                        You DO NOT KNOW Russia do not like Russia. Here's HOW your "commexperts" "saved" Suzdal.
                        :
                        “January 1933. The head of the Suzdal Museum Varganov.

                        The City Council asks you to give permission to break the former church. Kozma and Damian and the bell tower of St. Dmitry, as a material necessary for construction humpbacks».


                        Museum employee V.I. Romanovsky sends a request to the Central State Restoration Workshops about the possibility of replacing the Dmitrievskaya Church with the Znamenskaya Church, and only later buildings should be allowed to be taken away from Kozmodemyanskaya. There is no thought about the possibility of finding for the bath other building material is just being discussed what monument to destroy. Suzdal lost one of the most peculiar monuments of the late Baroque - Dmitrievskaya Church in 1764 and its entire ensemble. In its place you built a city dump.

                        Back in 1927, the Vladimir Provincial Department of Finance demanded that the Suzdal Museum, on the basis of the NKVD Circular No. 351, receive funds from “scrapping” the Borisoglebskaya, Dmitrievskaya and John the Baptist Church.
                        The Bolsheviks found the STONE, yes am .

                        So in the city of Suzdal disappeared churches of St. Athanasius in 1719 in the Kremlin; St. Wonderworker Nikola 1718, warm at Borisoglebskaya; Dmitrievskaya 1764; warm St. George in 1715, with a bell tower in 1809; Zlatoust 1729; St. John the Evangelist of 1771, warm at Ilyinskaya, St. Barbara of 1737 and warm Praise of the Virgin with the bell tower of God-loving 1789 at the Zlatoust cemetery; All Saints 1694 with a bell tower in a cemetery; Trinity Cathedral 1700, http://www.photosuzdal.ru/photos/suzdal_302002.ht
                        m

                        What, keep silent, comrade Avva? Pretending not to read? Still would....
                      3. avva2012
                        avva2012 16 November 2017 05: 08 New
                        0
                        the city of Suzdal, the church of St. Athanasius 1719 in the Kremlin disappeared; St. Wonderworker Nicholas 1718, warm at Borisoglebskaya; Dmitrievskaya 1764; warm St. George 1715 g., with the bell tower 1809 g .; Zlatoust 1729 of the year; St. John the Evangelist of 1771, warm at Ilyinskaya, St. Barbara, 1737, and warm Praise of the Virgin with the bell tower of God-Loving 1789, at the Zlatoust cemetery; All Saints 1694 g. With a bell tower in the cemetery; Trinity Cathedral 1700, What, say nothing, comrade Avva? Pretending not to read? Still would....

                        I read and what? You may not understand, but year of construction does not automatically mean the cultural and artistic value of a given cathedral. This is the time. And, two, but with what fright, you divide "into yours and not yours." Their state built mainly. So, how much does it build? If the "House of Culture" decided to demolish what, it is necessary, to hold a popular referendum, "they say it was built from the taxes of the people?" A temple is a room of a certain appearance and nothing more. Prayer, if it is sincere, will reach where it is necessary without gilded robes and salaries of icons. So do not here crocodile tears to pour and shame adults. They would look at themselves. What you are proud of and what you are trying to poke is 99% slag, not history. A pretentious selection of obscure facts that speak of your omnivore, and not your ability to analyze and correlate information. Pigeon syndrome on a chessboard.
                    5. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 16 November 2017 07: 44 New
                      +1
                      Quote: avva2012
                      I read and what? You may not understand, but the year of construction does not automatically mean the cultural and artistic value of this cathedral. This time. And, two, but with what fright, you divide "into yours and not yours." Their state built mainly. So, how much does it build? If the "House of Culture" decided to demolish what, it is necessary, to hold a popular referendum, "they say it was built from the taxes of the people? A temple is a room of a certain appearance and nothing more. Prayer, if it is sincere, will reach where it is necessary without gilded robes and salaries of icons. So do not here crocodile tears to pour and shame adults. They would look at themselves. What you are proud of and what you are trying to poke is 99% slag, not history. A pretentious selection of obscure facts that speak of your omnivore, and not your ability to analyze and correlate information. Pigeon syndrome on a chessboard.

                      The value of the demolished is CONFIRMED today, you can’t understand what you read?
                      It is time.
                      Second: 0churches belonged to the CHURCH, not to you. And it’s not your business, respectively. Just as it’s not your business, to judge how it comes, prayer does not come, it is the work of the Church and believers.
                      3. You wouldn’t have to be ashamed if you wouldn’t constantly position yourself as an intellectual. But you do not know Russia (history, culture) and do not want to know, this is impossible for an intellectual.
                      4. The facts are "unreasonable"? What's this? belay Do you speak Russian?
                      The “slag” of facts is something you don’t know, and all your “analysis” without them is a game of Chapaev on a chessboard. What are you doing, assuring that you are a grandmaster. lol
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 16 November 2017 08: 57 New
                        +1
                        churches belonged to the CHURCH, not to you

                        The church during the time of the Republic of Ingushetia was not separated from the State, but under the Senate there was a Synod, i.e., a ministry. So, the church itself and what was in its charge, movable and immovable property, everything belonged to the state.
                        Just as it’s not your business, to judge how it comes, prayer does not come, it is the work of the Church and believers.

                        Naturally. Read the theological literature and find out what the hierarchs of the church think about it.
                        assuring that the grandmaster.

                        What, you, I prefer backgammon. ps The game "Chapaeva", this is checkers. wink
                        You would not constantly position yourself as an intellectual.

                        You, all the same, tie yourself to talk to yourself. Good, it will not end. Where and when did I write about this? And in general, I join the words of L.N. Gumileva, "what are you, I have a profession."
                        ps And the facts you have, to put it mildly ... What, is it, "Top Secret, after reading burn"? You have such a document in the book, did not make you think about anything? (your recommendations on thousands of peasant uprisings).
                      2. avva2012
                        avva2012 16 November 2017 09: 13 New
                        0
                        And you have the facts, to put it mildly ... What, is it, "Top secret, after reading burn"? You have such a document in the book, did not make you think about anything? (your recommendations on thousands of peasant uprisings).
                        Slightly confused here in your facts: "Top secret. To be burned in situ "
                    6. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 16 November 2017 10: 19 New
                      0
                      The church during the time of the Republic of Ingushetia was not separated from the State, but under the Senate there was a Synod, i.e., a ministry. So, the church itself and what was in its charge, movable and immovable property, everything belonged to the state.

                      Oh, how it all started: the owners of the churches, s. sites and property of the Russian legislation called the Holy Synod, bishops' houses, parish churches, monasteries, reign. wives communities, cityless churches (cathedrals, cemeteries, and guns), religious schools, guardianship of the poor clergy, diocesan clergy, jointly owned by candle factories and money capital.
                      Then EVERYTHING was declared the property of the Bolshevik state). Which destroyed tens of thousands of Russian monuments. of which quarries were made. Remember WHO built ancient shacks from ancient temples and statues? Also, by the way, the Colosseum was not demolished lol .
                      .
                      ps The game "Chapaeva", this is checkers. wink

                      on a CHESS board. Did not know? belay
                      Where and when did I write about this? And in general, I join the words of L.N. Gumileva, "what are you, I have a profession."

                      Constantly write: when you teach what is right, what is not. Intelligent habits.
                      ps And the facts you have, to put it mildly ... What, is it, "Top Secret, after reading burn"? Such a document in the book didn’t make you think of anything

                      I don’t understand what it is about: what book?
                      Your recommendations on thousands of peasant uprisings:
                      read OGPU reports with 1928 and then-read, read ....
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 16 November 2017 10: 33 New
                        +1
                        I don’t understand what it is about: what book?
                        Your recommendations on thousands of peasant uprisings:
                        read OGPU reports with 1928 and then-read, read ....

                        Here in this book is.
                        Then EVERYTHING was declared the property of the Bolshevik state

                        Property of the state under the name of the Republic of Ingushetia passed into the ownership of the workers 'and peasants' state, what is wrong?
                        Remember WHO built ancient shacks from ancient temples and statues

                        Ludi.
                        Constantly write: when you teach what is right, what is not. Intelligent habits.

                        Do I teach? Is that you with a mirror now?
                    7. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 16 November 2017 10: 48 New
                      0
                      1. Church ownership history: Orthodox Encyclopedia -read.
                      2. The barbarians were building.
                      3. Again Istmat DOCUMENTS do not believe?
                      4. What do you believe?
                      5. I see you.
          2. avt
            avt 13 November 2017 16: 10 New
            +7
            Quote: Olgovich
            You are boring figures of statistics to refute:

            What about the criminal case for the supply of grain to the starving areas of the Empire Bulo? Well, with the main supplier, the casino holder and the supplier of water closets? bully Yes, his accomplice from the Ministry of Internal Affairs with a big name? Let me guess - there was no need for bread, there was meat. So there was simply no hunger wassat
            Quote: Olgovich
            here you will not get sick, chatter, you will not manage!

            Chatter and pampering in one word, and not hunger, because Nikolashka, the "Bloody" criminal case then merged ..... into the water closet the Swedish citizen delivered him. bully
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 13 November 2017 21: 12 New
              +2
              Quote: avt
              Chatter and pampering in one word, and not hunger, because Nikolashka, the "Bloody" criminal case leaked ..... into the water closet the Swedish citizen put him

              With tsifirki you, as expected, BYAD. lol
              "Tolstoy, vateklozeta", etc.chatter, and - NOT ONE tsifirki "retreat"! yes
              Such ma-ah-ah-a-little, clumsy tsifirki, but how do you fear them! lol
              And rightly afraid!
              There is strength in them, as at the tip of Kashchey’s needle ....
        2. long in stock.
          long in stock. 13 November 2017 21: 49 New
          +5
          olgovich will not let you lie ... the same Lump !! HUMAN !! where there before him are some kind of little korolenki and fat ... so .. apprentice ..
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 November 2017 14: 49 New
        +6
        Quote: Finches
        I will leave without my personal comments and turn to the classics, unfortunately, we are listening to the great princes, forgetting to ask - how did the ordinary people live:

        Dear Eugene, I suggest you turn to FIGURES, not fiction.
        Comrade baden finally squeakedly acknowledged the authenticity of the Report of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR of 1955, which inexorably states that in 1937 a resident of the USSR ate much WORSE than in 1913.http: //istmat.info/node/18419. Take an interest!
        And if in 1913 it was so bad, then what happened in 1937 ?! And earlier (later)?
        And here's what: http://new.rusarchives.ru/publication/hunger-ussr
        /1933_15.shtml- and there are a lot of such documents !.
        So much for Tolstoy ...

        Therefore, Ryabtsev could not have surrendered the Kremlin and Moscow!
      3. BAI
        BAI 13 November 2017 16: 21 New
        +4
        And here is another Russian classic - A.P. Chekhov from the Sakhalin penal servitude wrote about the unfortunate Sakhalin convicts:
        according to Chekhov, each convict received only baked bread over three pounds. Russian pound, I remind you again, this is 410 grams. So, the convict received more than 1230 grams of bread daily at the imperial penal servitude. The quality of the bread is high. At the imperial penal servitude the convict meat received 40 spools, or 171 grams daily, the imperial penal servants received cereals, 15 spools or 64 grams daily, plus he also received various welding products. On a fasting day, instead of meat, the convict received 410 grams of fish.

        By the way, in hard work, as Chekhov writes, a convict was supposed to have a pound of meat per day, that is, 410 grams and bread were given to him a pound more, not three, but four pounds. Hard work is, for example, carpentry.
        In general, reading about the diet of convicts in the imperial penal servitude is even fun. For example, Chekhov writes that only salted meat and fish are eaten. This is understandable, there were no refrigerators in those days. But here is what Chekhov writes further.
        - It happens that in a prison they cook a stew of fresh meat; this means that the bear lifted up the cow or some misfortune happened with the breech bull or cow. But prisoners are often treated like a slaughter like a carrion and refuse to eat it.
    2. dSK
      dSK 13 November 2017 08: 29 New
      +7
      Hello Andrey! Modern history - at first the USSR collapsed, then set to work for the Russian Federation. Just do not take into account one significant point - our leader is now pro-Orthodox. Now the State Deputies openly regret that they did not "finish off" in 2000. And now for sure they will not succeed. States for the collapse of the USSR, in addition to indoctrination, "lowered" oil prices to $ 25. In 2014, oil prices "fell" to $ 27. Russia has resisted, now oil is "torn" for $ 70. In Syria, the Libyan scenario does not pass. In Ukraine, more than half of the Orthodox, civilians and heavily armed mercenaries. But as Alexander Nevsky once said: "Whoever comes to us with a sword will die from the sword"
      There is a revival of Orthodoxy in Russia. Growth costs are inevitable, people are not angels, each has its own skeleton in the closet and a log in the eye. Jesus Christ: "I am with you and no one at you."
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. dSK
          dSK 13 November 2017 12: 13 New
          +7
          Quote: Varyag_0711
          Orthodoxy is not the salvation of Russia,

          Matthew 13: 6-7but whoever seduces one of these little ones who believe in Me, it would be better if they would hang a millstone on his neck and drown him in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world from temptations, for temptations must come; but woe to that person through whom the temptation comes. " In the Good News - the Gospel, there are no empty words, because the Son of God said this. Sooner or later, your conscience will wake up - the voice of God.
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 13 November 2017 12: 32 New
            +9
            Buy a rooster in the market and chop off his head .... The man explains that our country is multinational and multiconfessional. Nobody is against Vera, just don’t have to impose her on anyone. You are not alone here so smart.
          2. Varyag_0711
            Varyag_0711 13 November 2017 12: 38 New
            17
            dsk today, 12:13 ↑
            Matthew 13: 6-7
            I say a clinical case. fool Here are exactly the same fanatics like you, but only with pots on their heads, they have ruined the whole country. I'm just wondering what you forgot on this site? Sermons here are not particularly revered, here mostly people are literate, well, with the exception of trolls and inadequate from the Russian Orthodox Church. This site is primarily about weapons and their use, what does your gospel of horseradish understand who has any relation to a specific article? You need the Spas TV channel, you are mistaken in your address. Why are you posting your rubbish in articles that are not related to Orthodoxy, and indeed to religion? From fucking do? And why did such a "believer" and "Orthodox" like you, put on the flag of an atheistic USSR?
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 13 November 2017 12: 56 New
              +9
              I say a clinical case.

              The problem with such "believers" is that he will be treated for influenza in a polyclinic built during the USSR and most likely a doctor who has been educated there, and not at the iconostasis. But, when it gets sick, and how it will recover, it will expose the atheists of the Bolsheviks with new strength and a sign of the Cross. There would be no prayer of his own, even though he himself, but the Gospel and others, it is easy. It is not necessary, in fact, in this case, to work on oneself, to ulcerate one's own sins. It's always easier strangers. The pastor is visible.
              1. Varyag_0711
                Varyag_0711 13 November 2017 13: 36 New
                16
                Alexander, I completely agree. I’m just wondering, where did so many “believers” come from in an almost completely atheistic country? Well, suppose in the frenzy of the 90s they believed in anyone from hopelessness, from Christ to Kashpirovsky. But now what happened? Autumn aggravation in special hospitals? Or is the legacy of the 90s so reflected in fragile brains? No, I understand everything, do you want to believe, believe, even in God, even in hell, but why put your so-called "feelings" on display? Why provoke the same Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, or anyone else?
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 13 November 2017 14: 46 New
                  +9
                  Alexei, I can’t say that I know for sure what the dog rummaged around here bully, but I have a suspicion that most of the monarchists who suddenly believed and their ilk, who are now on the Internet, are either children or working on ads (how to make money on the Internet) or both. Suspicion is also based on the fact that some anti-Soviet fakes suddenly appear simultaneously on all possible resources without, of course, bypassing ours.
                  Another point. One good man died recently and I was at a funeral. So, after the funeral service was a priestly sermon. So, I was extremely surprised at the mention of the former atheistic authority. The priests and our church were indignant at the fact that there were persecutions during the Civil War, that some priests suffered. But excuse me, why are you getting into politics? I want to ask? Your business is to heal the soul, and not to fulfill the role of a political officer. And personally, I come to the temple not to listen to what Bolsheviks were fiends, and what a blunder now. Well, the last. In my opinion, again, now the time is no better than 90's in a sense. There is no sense of stability, we live like on a volcano, and therefore people seek to find solace.
                2. BAI
                  BAI 13 November 2017 16: 25 New
                  +2
                  I’m just wondering, where did so many “believers” come from in an almost completely atheistic country?

                  And it was fashionable.
              2. Olgovich
                Olgovich 13 November 2017 14: 28 New
                +6
                Quote: avva2012
                The problem with such "believers" is that he will be treated for influenza in a polyclinic built during the USSR and most likely a doctor trained there

                If there is money, then it’s not for you and not in your clinics.
                Ilic was served not by Bolshevik doctors, but by the imperial and even .... imperialist !.
                Quote: avva2012
                atheists of the Bolsheviks.

                When the Bolsheviks seriously and seriously fall ill, they sharply forget about party cards and become believers. And in the last way they often go after the funeral service by the priest.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 13 November 2017 15: 18 New
                  +7
                  I agree with your last proposal, but this applies not only to the Bolsheviks, but, in general, to almost all. When bake. And about Lenin, you, excuse me, knock, knock, at home, who is? What are the Bolshevik doctors in 1920? 6 years of study at the doctor, well then, maybe less .... laughing laughing
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 13 November 2017 15: 23 New
                    +6
                    Quote: avva2012
                    I agree with your last sentence,

                    I respect honesty. Still, what about a party card? request
                    Quote: avva2012
                    What are the Bolshevik doctors in 1920? 6 years study at the doctor

                    Therefore, today you’re getting more Soviet doctors than non-Soviet doctors
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 13 November 2017 15: 55 New
                      +8
                      Believe me, in this industry, if it goes on with education, it’s soon certain that it would be better not to go to the hospital, even if it’s paid, even if it’s free. Soviet doctors will leave for natural reasons and hello.
                      Olgovich, can you read? It is written about "when almost everyone bakes." What is the party ticket here? Here you know how lucky. With a diagnosis of any serious illness, some people first begin to turn to the supernatural, and then to the doctors. Unfortunately, it happens that this appeal is already late and nothing can be done. Others remember the soul when nothing can be done from the very beginning. Not all and discussion of this issue is not subject. But the fact that in such cases many do it is a fact.
                      And yet, how is it with Lenin and the imperialist doctors? laughing Maybe I'm wrong, but the imperialist doctor arrived late. And his profession was in brain morphology. Pathologist, if simple.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 13 November 2017 22: 33 New
                        +2
                        Quote: avva2012
                        Believe me, in this industry, if it goes on with education, it’s soon certain that it would be better not to go to the hospital, even if it’s paid, even if it’s free. Soviet doctors will leave for natural reasons and hello

                        Somehow without Soviet doctors in other countries they survived? and survive, and not bad!
                        Quote: avva2012
                        What is the party ticket here?

                        Do you remember what you wrote? About believers, fleeing, nevertheless, to the polyclinic, when they bake, and not to God. With sarcasi.
                        Although they turn to you and to God. Everything is logical with them.

                        But people who blew up churches, laughed at the Church, when the test comes, they flee to the Church, completely forgetting about their recent atheism and "beliefs". request You can understand them, but .....
                2. badens1111
                  badens1111 13 November 2017 15: 24 New
                  +6
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Ilic was served not by Bolshevik doctors, but by the imperial and even .... imperialist !.

                  What kind of stupidity? A doctor is a doctor, no matter where the Aesculapius works, but for sure, you are not doctors, but rvachs remotely related to Aesculapius and Hippocrates.
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 13 November 2017 15: 36 New
                    +4
                    Quote: badens1111
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    Ilic was served not by Bolshevik doctors, but by the imperial and even .... imperialist !.

                    What kind of stupidity? A doctor is a doctor, no matter where the Aesculapius works, but for sure, you are not doctors, but rvachs remotely related to Aesculapius and Hippocrates.

                    Not mine. Avva claims that when you get to the clinic, you go to the conscience doctors.
                    Here is Ilych - to the imperial.
                    1. badens1111
                      badens1111 13 November 2017 15: 51 New
                      +4
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      Here

                      No headache?
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 13 November 2017 16: 17 New
                        +5
                        !!!!!!!!!!!!! laughing It doesn’t hurt, only the woodpecker’s head, and a person’s balls can hit the rollers just like that.
                      2. long in stock.
                        long in stock. 13 November 2017 21: 52 New
                        +4
                        that which is not there, cannot hurt ...
                3. Dzmicer
                  Dzmicer 13 November 2017 16: 28 New
                  +5
                  badens1111,
                  My grandfathers took it.

                  And can you elaborate on how your "grandfathers" fought in Spain, Italy and Portugal? Yes, and victorious laughing
                  And you beat like those in Chechen companies.

                  Is it Russian or what?
                  Imagined Chechens taking the Vatican by storm laughing
                  For me, that fascist, that Wahhabi, there is no difference.

                  Yes, for you, in general, everything that is not Bolshevism is fascism.
                  The bearers of the ideology of Nazism-fascism, of course, so as not to spoil the society.

                  So you yourself are the bearer of such an inhuman ideology. For some reason, all the Bolsheviks perceive themselves as commissars who shoot down the enemies of the people. The fact that they or their loved ones may turn out to be enemies of the people (as it happened in reality) is too difficult for them to imagine.
      2. Olgovich
        Olgovich 13 November 2017 14: 15 New
        +4
        Quote: dsk
        Hello Andrey! Modern history - at first the USSR collapsed, then set to work for the Russian Federation. Just do not take into account one significant point - our leader is now pro-Orthodox. Now the State Deputies openly regret that they did not "finish off" in 2000. And now for sure they will not succeed. States for the collapse of the USSR, in addition to indoctrination, "lowered" oil prices to $ 25. In 2014, oil prices "fell" to $ 27. Russia has resisted, now oil is "torn" for $ 70. In Syria, the Libyan scenario does not pass. In Ukraine, more than half of the Orthodox, civilians and heavily armed mercenaries. But as Alexander Nevsky once said: "Whoever comes to us with a sword will die from the sword"
        There is a revival of Orthodoxy in Russia. Growth costs are inevitable, people are not angels, each has its own skeleton in the closet and a log in the eye. Jesus Christ: "I am with you and no one at you."

        Hello dear dsk! How to disagree with you?
        I agree! good
    3. Dzmicer
      Dzmicer 13 November 2017 09: 03 New
      +5
      What is a Russian matrix, who knows?

      Masonic rematch, like all Bolshevik rhetoric. It is futile to look for meaning in it. "Kaltanay-maltanay-width-vyrin-marduhai."
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 13 November 2017 09: 19 New
        +7
        Quote: Dzmicer
        "Kaltanay-maltanay-width-vyrin-marduhai."

        Are these your shamanistic incantations of an anti-Soviet-anti-Russian company, contrary to History? Continue, sometimes it's funny to watch such dances with tambourines.
        1. Dzmicer
          Dzmicer 13 November 2017 10: 14 New
          10
          Do you know what hutspa is? Khutspa is super impudence, shamelessness, unceremoniousness, impudence, rudeness, intolerance in relation to others, impudent and impudent hypocrisy. Khutspa is when a guy accused of killing his parents asks the judge for leniency on the grounds that he is an orphan.
          The Bolsheviks destroyed the Russian aristocracy, Russian clergy, Russian merchants, Russian industrialists, Russian officers, and, finally, the Russian peasantry. The Bolsheviks robbed the Russian people, enslaved it, destroyed, tortured it.
          In this connection, I can’t call the Khutspa more than yours, when you, an accomplice of terrorists and mass murderers, have the audacity to call the real Russian patriots Russophobes, posing as the defender of Russia, which you call the anti-Russian (and anti-Russian, respectively) state of the USSR .
          1. Varyag_0711
            Varyag_0711 13 November 2017 10: 32 New
            17
            Dzmicer Today, 10:14 ↑
            Do you know what hutspa is? Khutspa is super impudence, shamelessness, unceremoniousness, impudence, rudeness, intolerance in relation to others, impudent and impudent hypocrisy.
            This is what you correctly noticed to yourself.
            This phrase of yours is hutspa:
            The Bolsheviks robbed the Russian people, enslaved it, destroyed, tortured it.
            What kind of people did the Bolsheviks rob? The one who had nothing? Neither education, nor medicine, nor livelihoods, nor any prospects at all? Above, Comrade Zyablitsov quoted you as living "a people not plundered by the Bolsheviks." Or do you consider people only bourgeois, priests and landlords?
            1. Dzmicer
              Dzmicer 13 November 2017 10: 48 New
              +5
              What kind of people did the Bolsheviks rob? The one who had nothing? Neither education, nor medicine, nor livelihoods, nor any prospects at all? Above, Comrade Zyablitsov quoted you as living "a people not plundered by the Bolsheviks." Or do you consider people only bourgeois, priests and landlords?

              I consider the people primarily peasants. Which, in 1917, owned 85% of the land for which they had been making redemption payments for decades and which the Bolshevik robbers and murderers "collectivized." This caused a real civil peasant war in 1930, but the rebels were fragmented, atomized, and deprived of leaders (all potential ones were either killed or in exile), which is why all the centers of the popular rebellion against anti-people power were easily extinguished.
              1. Varyag_0711
                Varyag_0711 13 November 2017 11: 11 New
                19
                Dzmicer Today, 10:48 ↑
                I consider the people primarily peasants. Which in 1917 owned 85% of the land
                "Burn Ischooo" ... laughing laughing laughing So I want to ask, where do you get such nonsense nonsense?
                And also for those especially gifted in the knowledge of our history. Collectivization was a necessary, but extremely necessary measure to ensure the country's food security in preparation for the war against Nazi Germany. In addition to this, workers were needed for the industrialization of the country. Because there was nothing to fight elementarily. Who do you think was supposed to build factories, plants, infrastructure, hydroelectric power stations, schools and more? Where could workers be taken, except in villages, if 85 percent of the population were peasants?
                Or, according to your logic, did not have to prepare for war? Why would you meet Hitler like bread and salt, would you heal well, right?
                All your “logic” fool the logic is through and through a rotten and corrupt liberal who will sell his own mother for 30 pieces of silver and his mother, not to mention his homeland! negative
                1. Dzmicer
                  Dzmicer 13 November 2017 11: 38 New
                  +7
                  Collectivization was a necessary, but extremely necessary measure to ensure the country's food security in preparation for the war against Nazi Germany.

                  It's five!
                  1. The Nazis came to power in 1933. The USSR worked closely with Weimar Germany.
                  2. Collectivization became the cause of the famine of 1932-1933. Excellent food security!
                  In addition to this, workers were needed for the industrialization of the countryBesides this, workers were needed for the industrialization of the country.

                  Therefore, it is necessary to turn the population into slavery, because to attract workers with higher wages is oppression and capitalism, but the robbery of the village through “price scissors” and collectivization is, in our opinion, in a popular way! Patriotic, tightly, spiritually!
                  Or, according to your logic, did not have to prepare for war?

                  What is the war in 1930?
                  Why would you meet Hitler like bread and salt, would you heal well, right?

                  The Nazis and Bolsheviks are twin brothers, so no.
                  The great leader is.
                  The only true teaching is.
                  There is reprisal against the opposition.
                  Mass killings - there is.
                  The only difference is that the Nazis came to power as a result of the elections, and the Bolsheviks through armed capture. Well, in the principles of annihilation: some destroyed according to the racial principle, others according to the class.
                  logic through and through a rotten and corrupt liberal

                  I am a solidary. That is, from both your and liberoid points of view - a fascist. You have much more in common with liberalism: you equally hate pre-revolutionary Russia and the last legitimate ruler of Russia, Nicholas II, your ancestors equally enthusiastically raked the color of the Russian nation, when there was no one to ruin, then you embarked on each other (great terror).
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 13 November 2017 12: 04 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Dzmicer
                    Therefore, it is necessary to turn the population into slavery, because to attract workers with higher wages is oppression and capitalism, but the robbery of the village through “price scissors” and collectivization is, in our opinion, in a popular way! Patriotic, tightly, spiritually!

                    Well, you are just the path of the enlightened European powers. They just went through this much earlier, and Russia was stuck in development.
                    Any industrialization needs free hands. You can take them only in the village. And in some places the question was simply solved: enclosure, the law on vagrancy, work houses.
                    1. Dzmicer
                      Dzmicer 13 November 2017 12: 18 New
                      +3
                      And in some places the question was simply solved: enclosure, the law on vagrancy, work houses.

                      Or even simpler: the liberation of the peasants from serfdom without land. The way in which peasants were freed in Russia is a precedent unprecedented in history. In Britain, for example, until now almost all of the land belongs to land lords.
                      I also love when the so-called rush "Decree on cook children", restricting the right to study for people who do not have the proper conditions for this. In "enlightened Europe" such a decree could not have appeared simply because the question of the education of "Cook children" was not even raised there, they were not accepted for study.
                  2. badens1111
                    badens1111 13 November 2017 12: 07 New
                    +7
                    Quote: Dzmicer
                    I am a solidary. That is, from both your and liberoid points of view - a fascist

                    Ideology has already been beaten by us.
                    Ideology is prohibited in the country. The carrier of this ideology, in questions of the history of the country that defeated you in 1945, is better to shut up.
                    Quote: Dzmicer
                    your ancestors with the same enthusiasm haunted the color of the Russian nation, when there was no one to harass, then you set to each other

                    Our ancestors got rid of people like you and, as the experience of the Great Patriotic War showed, they did the right thing, it’s a pity that the government was human that left you to divorce, allowing in the current Russian Federation, now, to transmit the fascist point of view to society.
                    http://kodeks-ob-admin-pravonarusheniyah.com/stat
                    ya-20-3-propaganda-i-publichnoe-demonstrirovanie-
                    nacistskoj-atributiki-ili-simvoliki /
                    1. Dzmicer
                      Dzmicer 13 November 2017 12: 22 New
                      +4
                      Ideology has already been beaten by us.

                      Personally stormed the Vatican, Lisbon and Madrid and hoisted the red flag there? laughing
                      Our ancestors got rid of people like you and, as the experience of the Great Patriotic War showed, they did the right thing, it’s a pity that the government was human that left you to divorce, allowing in the current Russian Federation, now, to transmit the fascist point of view to society.

                      The funny thing is that you absolutize the state and urge you to kill fellow citizens, as it were, an “anti-fascist”.
                      Which only confirms my point of view that Bolshevism and Nazism are bastard twin brothers.
                      1. badens1111
                        badens1111 13 November 2017 15: 26 New
                        +6
                        Quote: Dzmicer
                        Personally stormed the Vatican, Lisbon and Madrid and hoisted the red flag there?

                        My grandfathers took it.
                        And you beat like those in Chechen companies.
                        For me, that fascist, that Wahhabi, there is no difference.
                        Quote: Dzmicer
                        The funny thing is that you absolutize the state and urge you to kill fellow citizens

                        The bearers of the ideology of Nazism-fascism, of course, so as not to spoil the society.
                  3. BAI
                    BAI 13 November 2017 16: 50 New
                    +3
                    Collectivization caused the famine of 1932-1933. Excellent food security!

                    Actually, the facts speak of something else (sorry for the long quote):
                    at the XIV Congress of the CPSU (B.) in 1925. The need to stop being a raw materials appendage of the West was obvious to the then leaders of Russia:
                    Quote: We are 50-100 years behind advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we will do it, or they will crush us. "(I.V. Stalin)

                    It was necessary to carry out an urgent breakthrough in industrial production - "industrialization".
                    But, in addition to industrialization, in the USSR they also tied tightly (not to the pound of England or the US dollar), but to gold, and brought into circulation a gold dime, which did not suit the West at all.
                    Then something almost unbelievable happened. Western capitalists unexpectedly refused to accept gold as a means of payment in trade with Russia. This amazing behavior of the capitalist powers (so fashionable in the current Western embargo policy) went down in history under the name of the “golden blockade”.

                    The meaning of this act is simple - now the USSR can buy machine tools and machines only for its natural resources. Gold will lie in the basements of Gokhran dead weight. Oil, timber and grain, especially grain - it is precisely its west that wants to receive for the supply of its equipment. The country's leadership is forced to play by these rules: the equipment is paid for by natural resources, since we do not take gold.

                    There is a great opportunity to conquer Soviet Russia without inventing Hitler and without military intervention.

                    The first step to this is the refusal to accept gold from the USSR, the second step is an embargo (import ban) on the supply of Soviet goods to the West. In fact, export of timber and oil products is prohibited. That is, all that paid for the supply of Western cars for the destroyed Russian economy.

                    The first five-year plan begins in 1929, the United States introduced restrictions in 1930-1931, a similar decree was issued in France in 1930. On April 17, 1933, the British government announced an embargo on the main export goods of the USSR. It covers up to 80% of our exports.

                    First, the West refused to accept gold from the USSR as payment, then everything else, except grain. At the same time, in the West, organized by the "Crisis" (for internal use, including for the redistribution and seizure of property from some in favor of others), it knocks down the price of our Grain, but the price of its products almost doubles.

                    The Stalinist leadership is faced with a choice: either refusal to restore industry, i.e. surrender to the West, or the continuation of industrialization, leading to a terrible internal crisis. The Bolsheviks will take the grain from the peasants - there is a very high probability of starvation, which in turn is likely to lead to an internal explosion and the displacement of power. In any case, the West wins.

                    Stalin decides to go ahead. In the summer of 1929, collectivization of agriculture began. The state collects grain and sends it to the West, there are no stocks. Hope Stalin for a new crop. It turns out to be small - in a country of drought. A country cannot buy food either for gold or for a currency, because it does not exist because of the embargo.

                    Attempts are being made to urgently urgently save the situation - to bring grain from Persia, where they agree to accept gold.

                    Do not have time - a disaster happens. In 1932-1933, a lot of people die, and only after that, immediately after that (!) The West is again ready to accept oil, timber and precious metals from the Bolsheviks. In 1934, grain exports from the USSR generally ceased.

                    The European Parliament has recognized the Holodomor in Ukraine as a crime against humanity / There was also famine in Povozhye, but Europe is not interested in it - BAI /. The culprit is the leadership of the Stalinist USSR. But in the document of the European Parliament there is no answer to two questions: Why did the West behave so “strangely”, refusing to accept gold from Stalin, why did they want to receive only grain from us as payment.

                    Several generations of our compatriots remembered well how cultural and civilized Europe could easily fall under the fascist boot in just a few years, and then, having lost its human appearance and forgetting about any humanism, set off to burn, rob and kill millions of people. And to stop this horde is impossible by any exhortations. (C)

                    For reference, the USSR economy, which had already been destroyed by the West in the 40s, canceled food cards in 1947 - two years after the war, France was under the “Marshall Plan” in 1949, England in the early 50s.

                    By the way, the famine in the United States claimed 7 million lives.

                    About USA:
                    In the US, they hide how many people died from the hunger of the 30s. The official statistics for the most difficult - 1932 were destroyed, officially - the reports allegedly "were not compiled." Apparently, in the 30s, millions of people died of starvation in the United States. Analysis of the age-sex pyramid shows a demographic failure of 5-7 million people, most of whom are children, as happens with hunger. But these are indirect estimates, the real information is hidden. Those who talked about this tragedy in the United States were persecuted with extrajudicial killings and imprisoned as “communist agents” and “Soviet spies” until the 60s.


                    In my opinion, it is not very different from the USSR. But what “collectivization” and “industrialization” are to blame for there? Who threatened them?

                    PS. I am not a doctor, but in my opinion, of course, children do not look hungry. Poor - yes, but not hungry. Although here - really hunger.

                    Do not pay attention to the woman’s stomach. This is either a pregnancy or a disease.
                    1. badens1111
                      badens1111 13 November 2017 19: 23 New
                      +2
                      Who is afraid of the Soviet Union?
                      Andrei Fefelov and Deputy Director of the Institute of CIS Countries Igor Shishkin talk about the origins of anti-Sovietism. Why is the USSR an integral stage in the development of historical Russia, who and for what reasons is trying to refute this.
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69rXbk02z7c
                    2. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 13 November 2017 23: 02 New
                      +3
                      Quote: BAI
                      In the US, they hide how many people died from the hunger of the 30s. The official statistics for the most difficult - 1932 were destroyed, officially - the reports allegedly "were not compiled." Apparently, in the 30s, millions of people died of starvation in the United States

                      Comrade WAI, believe NUMBERS, not post-Soviet researchers of the Amer’s famine (the Soviet did not know it lol )
                      And the numbers are in the Report of the Central Statistical Bureau of the USSR of 1955, where the figures of the 30s for the USA are given: there people ate 3-5 times more, whose in the USSR in 1940.
                      Such is the "famine."
                      2. On gold, you are aware that among themselves the stranglers of the USSR gold, too-NOT received?
                      3. Butt M. Export of the USSR in the first five-year period (1928-1932) / Foreign trade. No. 1, 1933. S.4-7.
                      Industrial group-64%
                      Agricultural 36%
                      Where is the export of grain only? request
                2. Lieutenant Teterin
                  Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 12: 02 New
                  +5
                  Quote: Varyag_0711
                  where do you get such nonsense nonsense?

                  In archives, articles and monographs.
                  https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/chastnoe-zemlev
                  ladenie-pskovskoy-gubernii-v-1905-1914-godah
                  Pay attention to the dynamics of land sales by nobles and purchases by peasants.
                  1. Varyag_0711
                    Varyag_0711 13 November 2017 12: 20 New
                    16
                    Lieutenant Teterin Today, 12:02 ↑
                    In archives, articles and monographs.
                    I’ll dash so many archives for you in a couple of days, you are tormented to study. It is not necessary to expose liberal-bakery feces for archival documents.
                    If the people lived well under the king, there would be no revolution. Here is a fact that covers all of your demagogy about "Russia that we lost."
                    1. Lieutenant Teterin
                      Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 13: 08 New
                      +5
                      Quote: Varyag_0711
                      I’ll dash so many archives for you in a couple of days, you are tormented to study. It is not necessary to expose liberal-bakery feces for archival documents.

                      Great argument. At the level: "EXCELLENCE! 111". But essentially you say, judging by the tone of the comment there is nothing. And so that you do not think that the data I have provided is someone’s fiction, here are scans of the article to which I referred:



                      1. Varyag_0711
                        Varyag_0711 13 November 2017 13: 15 New
                        14
                        Lieutenant Teterin Today, 13:08 ↑
                        here are scans of the article to which I referred:
                        AND? What's next? Should I read and cry? You can write your heresy as much as you want about how the people were provided with land, the pages of VO will not be tolerated. Only now all your articles are not friendly with logic. And the logic is simple to disgrace. If, as you are trying to convince us all, the peasants had plenty of land, then why did they follow the Bolsheviks and their slogan “All the land to the people” ?! Eh?
                  2. Dzmicer
                    Dzmicer 13 November 2017 12: 24 New
                    +2
                    The link does not work, unfortunately
                  3. long in stock.
                    long in stock. 13 November 2017 22: 01 New
                    +5
                    Well then explain the colossal number of peasant uprisings and riots from 1901 to 1911? Read the manifesto of February 26, 1903.
          2. avva2012
            avva2012 13 November 2017 10: 35 New
            +8
            you have the audacity to call the real Russian patriots Russophobes, posing as the defender of Russia, which you call the anti-Russian (and anti-Russian, respectively) state of the USSR.

            How much less patriotism, that is, how much do they pay for such posts? I think it’s not expensive. The bird is not a great hit.
          3. kalibr
            kalibr 13 November 2017 12: 23 New
            +3
            I liked these words. Directly asking for pulpit: the gates of hell in Russia were opened by representatives of the pro-Western liberal-democratic project (the future White Project). They destroyed all the “bonds”, opened the gates to the underworld, and absolute evil poured into the world. Oooo, how scary. And along the road, the dead with braids stand!
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 13 November 2017 12: 37 New
              +4
              Believe me, they’re not yet standing, but they will be. Although 90 didn’t teach anything?
          4. verner1967
            verner1967 13 November 2017 20: 37 New
            +1
            Quote: Dzmicer
            In this connection, I can’t call the hutsp more than yours,

            100500 good
          5. Captain45
            Captain45 14 November 2017 17: 12 New
            +2
            Quote: Dzmicer
            The Bolsheviks destroyed the Russian aristocracy, Russian clergy, Russian merchants, Russian industrialists, Russian officers, and, finally, the Russian peasantry

            Wow, damn it .... belay And who then stayed in Russia if everyone was killed request
            1. Dzmicer
              Dzmicer 14 November 2017 17: 28 New
              +2
              "Population", "Daragy scattered"
              1. long in stock.
                long in stock. 14 November 2017 19: 22 New
                +2
                it is visible to you. it’s good that people have no relation to people like you ...
      2. andrew42
        andrew42 13 November 2017 13: 12 New
        +2
        Yes it is true. The Russian Matrix looks a lot like a cliché, where there are more misunderstandings than meaning. Russian culture is understandable. Russian traditions - understandable. Even the “Russian genetic code” is understood as an inherited value system. "The matrix" ? - No, I do not know. But in order to verbally confuse the "masses", apparently taken into service. Reminds ".. and as one die in the struggle for IT."
    4. Looking for
      Looking for 14 November 2017 16: 57 New
      0
      Quote: badens1111
      You do not know the history of the motherland

      Well, why does he possibly know the history of Russia, BUT !!! only those pages of it. which it is FAVORABLE for him to cover.
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 13 November 2017 07: 30 New
    10
    The Bolsheviks had the image of a new reality, the idea is communism
    ... And now what is the reality? .. The welfare state? .. And in what is expressed .. the union of labor and capital? ... In the mortgage? .. Taxes? Price increase? In credit bondage.? .. Camo coming? Recently, the GDP declared that the national idea was patriotism .. But for different social strata of the population, it is not the same ... Some do their duty, cause fire on themselves, others buy up gold watches and send children to study abroad, and children from abroad watered country and people ..
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 13 November 2017 09: 08 New
      +7
      .And now what is the reality? .. Social state? ..

      Words words words. The welfare state now is an irregular working day, an unclear prospect of a pension and how one will have to live on it, the absence of job guarantees by the profession of children and, in general, it is simply not clear what awaits the country further. And around the howl about totalitarianism, which should not be repeated, the construction of the "wall of sorrow", the erection of monuments to Czech killers. And the deeper the fall, the more they wipe their feet on the country, the higher the screech of the "bloody Bolsheviks". The Bolsheviks, who were able to save Russia, build a powerful state that influenced the course of world history. What did they build, what are they influencing now, interesting? After a welfare state, it may turn out that it’s not that no one will build a wall of sobs, but in general, no one will remember what it was, at least some kind of state.
    2. Hlavaty
      Hlavaty 13 November 2017 11: 00 New
      +1
      Quote: parusnik
      .And now what is the reality?

      Are the Bolsheviks in power now?
  3. Korsar4
    Korsar4 13 November 2017 07: 32 New
    +2
    There is much to discuss. Especially in search of the source of such a radical change. In my opinion, Berdyaev saw them in the schism of the times of Nikon, the reforms of Peter, and the uprising of the Decembrists.

    And to identify the "savior of the Fatherland" - it turns out the same buffonade as in "Shirley-Myrli."

    The findings will be biased in any case. You just read the chronicle - and you see loss after loss.
  4. mavrus
    mavrus 13 November 2017 07: 56 New
    +3
    Quote: Korsar4
    There is much to discuss. Especially in search of the source of such a radical change. In my opinion, Berdyaev saw them in the schism of the times of Nikon, the reforms of Peter, and the uprising of the Decembrists.

    And to identify the "savior of the Fatherland" - it turns out the same buffonade as in "Shirley-Myrli."

    The findings will be biased in any case. You just read the chronicle - and you see loss after loss.

    It is well said, "and you see loss after loss." This is familiar to our generation from the 90s
  5. Lieutenant Teterin
    Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 08: 48 New
    +9
    The article is a fat minus. Mr. Samsonov, with tenacity worthy of a better application, tries over and over again, arguing with reality, to justify the Bolsheviks. The introductory paragraph of the article alone contradicts historical reality. The crime of the Februaryists only seriously wounded Old Russia, became the prologue of events similar to the Time of Troubles of the 17th century, but did not kill it. The feudalists did not abolish the old system of legislation, the social structure of society, the system of military and civil ranks and awards. The federalists did not exterminate or imprison the active part of Russian society in murderous concentration camps. And they didn’t try "to bring out a new historical community - the Soviet man." It was all the Bolsheviks who were engaged in. And it was the Bolsheviks who killed Russia, because through the Constituent Assembly, Russia had a chance to get out of the Troubles, choosing a power endowed with the trust of the people. And the people at the elections to the U.S. showed that they trusted the Socialist-Revolutionaries with their moderate program more than the Bolsheviks with their insane utopia.
    So after such errors in the introductory part of the article, reading the text itself does not make sense - it is just as illiterate in historical terms.
    1. badens1111
      badens1111 13 November 2017 09: 21 New
      +7
      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      The crime of the Februaryists only seriously wounded Old Russia, became the prologue of events similar to the Time of Troubles of the 17th century, but did not kill it. The feudalists did not abolish the old system of legislation, the social structure of society, the system of military and civil ranks and awards.

      How much aplomb, how much passion .. but in fact FALSE.
      Order No. 1 says it all.
      The Provisional chatter about the US-country fell apart, the result is that in reality, they swept your Februaryists out of the country as completely unnecessary.
      1. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 10: 25 New
        +6
        Quote: badens1111
        The talk of the Provisional about the CSS-the country was falling apart,

        Mr. Baden, in 1613 the country was in even worse condition, but the Zemsky Sobor convened by “chatter” coped with this situation. So, similarly to him, the Constituent Assembly was to do the same.
        1. badens1111
          badens1111 13 November 2017 12: 09 New
          +5
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          in 1613 the country was in even worse condition

          failed in 1238.
          Your reference to the Time of Troubles is not relevant.
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          So, similarly to him, the Constituent Assembly was to do the same.

          I could not, chatter and narcissism bent off the brains of your spiritual forerunners.
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 13: 50 New
            +5
            Quote: badens1111
            Your reference to the Time of Troubles is not relevant.

            Really? But for a man who loves his homeland and knows Russian history, the parallels between the Time of Troubles and 1917 are more than obvious. How did the Februaryists differ from, for example, the Seven Boyars? Or what is the difference between the absence of the lawful Sovereign in 1613 and 1917?
            Quote: badens1111
            chatter and narcissism bent off the brains of your spiritual forerunners.

            Baden, you are a terrific person. You have just managed to offend the memory of hundreds of thousands of Russian people in one phrase. Those who shed blood, and even gave their lives, protecting the Fatherland and the people. In your opinion, were they occupied with narcissism? If so, then your words are undisguised Russophobia of the worst injury.
            1. andrew42
              andrew42 13 November 2017 14: 20 New
              +2
              Yes, it’s useless to exhort. The main thing there is that the boy and girl for anti-Semitism should not blush in front of the collective. And here you are trying to Baden’s "to talk about the fate of Russia."
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 13 November 2017 20: 36 New
                +5
                Quote: andrew42
                Yes, it’s useless to exhort

                With your literacy level, really .. what’s on the forehead, what’s on the forehead, you have ABM education, are you talking about some kind of Jews, do you have any fear in the subcortex of one mention of the Jews?
                And where did you divide the Jews of the creators of our weapons, who broke the ridge of Hitler?
                Remind last names?
                The creators of the KV and IS tanks and self-propelled guns SU and ISU-Kotin, and the engines for them - Wichmann, Gorlitsky, Ber, Werner.
                The creators of Katyusha are Schwartz, Gontmakher, Shor, Levin, Guy.
                The creator of the N-37, NS-45, NS-23 aircraft guns, tank and anti-tank guns is Nudelman.
                The creator of anti-aircraft systems - Levin, Lyulyev, Khorol.
                The creator of the SU-152 self-propelled gun based on the T-34 is Gorlitsky.
                Creator 160 mm. mortar - Teverevsky ..
                The inventor of the "hedgehogs" is General Gorikker.
                The People's Commissar of Arms - Vannikov, the People's Commissar of Tank Industry - Salzman, the aviation industry - Sandler.
                The directors of the largest aircraft and tank factories are Schenkman (La-5 and La-7), Honor (Barikad factory), Fradkin (Voroshilova factory), Salzman (- Comintern), Goldstein (Molotov factory) , Rubinchik (Zr. Kr. Sormovo), Belyansky (Chelyabinsk z-d IL-2), Lifshits (GAZ-zd), Katsnelson (z-174), Leo (Altai z-z.) - THIS is for are you the same enemies? On what basis?
                Quote: andrew42
                And here you are trying to Baden’s "to talk about the fate of Russia."

                Are you smart?
                WHO arrested Nicholas 2 and his family? Who committed the February rebellion?
                Go and learn at least something.
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 13 November 2017 16: 58 New
              +4
              You do not know Russian history well. There are no parallels there, acre of propaganda. Because different reasons were between the Time of Troubles and February. Different relationships between the participants. Impostors, King Vladislav, Swedes, traitors to the boyars, who they seem to be from our time, but then, simply parochialism was not outlived. Therefore, the Romanovs, who were covered up to their ears with Poles, and not only they, not only did not suffer punishment, but also became a dynasty. You, use in such reasoning not logic, but magical thinking, supposedly outwardly similar, but different in content, may have the same properties. In short, if easier, put a shadow on the wattle fence.
            3. badens1111
              badens1111 13 November 2017 20: 30 New
              +4
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              You have just managed to offend the memory of hundreds of thousands of Russian people in one phrase. Those who shed blood, or even gave their lives, protecting the Motherland and the people

              Whom? Krasnov, Manenerheim, Kolchak, Semenov, Shkuro Denikin, OSKORBIL? Did they defend this?
              "We were going to hang, Yua had to hang-your Kornilov, defenders found ..
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              If so, then your words are undisguised Russophobia of the worst injury.

              Insert Vlasov into the iconostasis, along with Hitler, these are your authorities.
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 20: 43 New
                +5
                Quote: badens1111
                Whom? Krasnov, Manenerheim, Kolchak, Semenov, Shkuro Denikin, OSKORBIL? Did they defend this?

                On the fronts of World War I - yes. Protected. And you called their actions "narcissism." And in the same way they offended the memory of Prince Oleg Konstantinovich Romanov, who died in a battle with the Germans in 1914. The prince covered up with simple Russian guys from the guards cavalry. Prince Simple guys. And you are "narcissism." Count Keller personally led his units in the attack. General In the forefront. He was wounded, covering himself with the same simple mobilized cavalry guys. And you are "narcissism."
                Denikin, commanding the Iron Division, defeated the vaunted Prussian Steel Division in 1916. With small losses. And you are narcissism.
                The workers of the Izhevsk and Votkinsk factories voluntarily went against the Bolsheviks. Under the red flag. And you are narcissism.
                This list can be continued for a long time. You are disgusting, Baden, and first of all, because in your desire to whitewash the Bolshevik criminals, they are throwing mud on Russia and Russian heroes.
                And take a member of the AUCPB, Soviet General Vlasov, to yourself. It is a product of your system and its illustrative example. Caressed by power, the defender of Moscow, the hero - and at the first opportunity - overstepped the enemy. The very same Denikin, once in Austrian captivity, used all his strength to escape and return to his "iron" shooters. And came back.
                1. badens1111
                  badens1111 14 November 2017 09: 30 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  good example.

                  You, an illustrative example of a speculator on historical topics, with a clear focus on Russophobia and anti-Sovietism.
                  All your dubious quality sermons about the “heroism” of Kolchaks and other Denikins are broken up on one fact, Kolchak for treason is washed away by the Angara, Denikin in America wrote a thick folio on how to defeat Russia.
                  Alas, shortly before his death, Anton Ivanovich thoroughly got drunk. It is very significant that although his letter to Truman below was published 18 years ago, so far no one has digitized it and has not posted it on the Internet. I correct this annoying defect:

                  A.I. Denikin to G. Truman: Bet on the Anti-Communists! // Military History Journal. 1998. No. 4. S.92–96.
                  http://pyhalov.livejournal.com/462534.html
      2. Looking for
        Looking for 14 November 2017 17: 00 New
        0
        Kum da Kuma (Olgovich and Teterin) is one Satan.
        1. long in stock.
          long in stock. 14 November 2017 19: 23 New
          0
          everything is fine. autumn ... exacerbations ...
    2. avva2012
      avva2012 13 November 2017 09: 43 New
      +8
      And they didn’t try "to bring out a new historical community - the Soviet man."

      They didn’t try. Soviet people simply lived in a Soviet country. Well, people like you have tried, but will you get you out? While the Soviet regime was strong, such as you sat quietly, quietly, or vice versa, in the forefront were at demonstrations dedicated to the November 7. And now they have climbed out, have grown their tails.
      1. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 10: 39 New
        +6
        Did not try? Oh really? Tried and how. And they themselves admitted this. Or will you argue with "Comrade People's Commissar of Education" Lunacharsky? http://lunacharsky.newgod.su/lib/o-vospitanii-io
        brazovanii / vospitanie-novogo-cheloveka
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 13 November 2017 11: 14 New
          +7
          Words, words, that's just, you did not understand anything. "I am dying, goodbye to my Homeland," it was written by a Soviet man who, himself, grew up in a Soviet country. Which, perhaps, went to the Soviet kindergarten and the Soviet school, was in the Soviet pioneer camps and attended sports sections, and if, he was older, and he did not have a chance, then he had something to compare. And he chose the Soviet Homeland as an atheist, and knowing that beyond the threshold he was expecting nothing, nevertheless he chose why to give his only life.
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 12: 05 New
            +5
            No, you didn’t understand anything. Soviet society and "culture" were built on the denial of Old Russia. Why did you quote the words of the unknown Hero for me remains a question. In the conditions when he died, any honest person would prefer death to surrender to the Nazis.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 13 November 2017 12: 19 New
              +6
              It’s not for you to talk about honor and an “honest man,” repeating the hardened ideoms of the Vlasovites and the NTS. According to the author, the "old Russia" was killed by landowners, priests, and a thieving elite. Therefore, one can understand the Bolsheviks, how can they not deny the half-decomposed corpse? The Communists took all the best from Russia and its people to build the USSR. Such a country, the greatness of which Russia has never reached, living under the heel of the same Romanovs.
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 13: 20 New
                +5
                Quote: avva2012
                Do not you talk about honor and "honest man",

                Do not tell me what I should do and I will not tell you where you should go. laughing
                But seriously, it’s just about the honor - I’m talking about, because I consider my prince of imperial blood Oleg Konstantinovich Romanov, Count Arthur Fedorovich Keller, Baron Peter Nikolayevich Wrangel, Colonel Alexander Pavlovich Kutepov and hundreds of thousands of Russian people who defended their homeland in 1914 and in 1918. These were the people of Honor and I am equal to them. But after 1991, it was not appropriate for a Soviet person to talk about honor. You looked at how the country was pulled apart by three loser alcoholics and ... did nothing. In 1917, thousands of people raised weapons in defense of Russia against usurpation of power. And in 1991? Millionth KGB, army, party - where were they? They sat on the pope evenly and were silent, waiting for the imperious shout of the next “leader”!
                Quote: avva2012
                According to the author, the "old Russia" was killed by landowners, priests, and a thieving elite.

                You wanted to say "how lying author, "right? Because the Russian elite defended it during the First World War and then massively stood up for its defense against the Bolsheviks.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 13 November 2017 13: 40 New
                  +5
                  Bah, personally, or something, taught? But seriously, open and read what they wrote in 1944-45, ROA and what they wrote and write in the NTS. Where is the honor and honest people? And your comments are so similar to their ideas. Strange, right?
                  1. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 14: 11 New
                    +4
                    Quote: avva2012
                    personally, or something, taught?

                    In order to share the ideals of a person, one does not need to personally learn from him. I believe you are well aware of this.
                    Quote: avva2012
                    ROA and what they wrote and write in the NTS.

                    ROA is a purely Soviet creation, founded by Soviet General Vlasov. But even then, the ROA itself began to participate in the battle against the Soviet troops ... already from February 9, 1945. In other words, the Nazis used
                    ROA as a propaganda tool and nothing more. And Vlasov himself, as a product of the Soviet system, did not distinguish between the Communists and the Russian people. Unlike the White generals. Read the memoirs of whites. They clearly distinguish between the Communists agitating the people and the people themselves, who are deceived by predatory slogans. The ROA did not have this, they only covered themselves with separate slogans of white.
                    And the NTS ... actually, the NTS didn’t please you? The fact that some of its members, in their naivety, decided to cooperate with the Nazis, for which, since 1943, did the Gestapo repression fall upon the NTS itself?
                    1. Varyag_0711
                      Varyag_0711 13 November 2017 14: 31 New
                      15
                      Lieutenant Teterin Today, 14:11 ↑ New
                      ROA is a purely Soviet creation
                      Yes shi? And Krasnov, and Shkuro, and most importantly the Directorate of Cossack Troops of the Imperial Ministry of the Eastern Occupied Territories, is also a product of the Soviet system? And the few thousand White Guard defiles who fought in Spain on the side of Franco, whose generation is this, your highly moral?
                      Your destiny, this is not an honor to say, where you have the honor of the rules of the site do not allow to say!
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 13 November 2017 15: 32 New
                        +5
                        Why only in Spain? They were in the forefront, in abandoned sabotage groups along our rear in the first hours of the war.
                      2. Lieutenant Teterin
                        Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 15: 41 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Varyag_0711
                        And Krasnov, and Shkuro, and the main department of the Cossack troops of the Imperial Ministry of the Eastern occupied territories,

                        And when did Krasnov and Shkuro manage for you to join the ROA? ROA - separately, and the Cossack separatist Krasnov - separately. From him back in civilian life there was more harm to the Volunteer army than good.
                        But Franco didn’t please you? An honest officer who honestly served his homeland and led an army that defended the homeland from leftist terror and the invasion of an international rabble. And by the way, about two hundred white emigrants on the side of Franco fought. How 200 people have turned into thousands in you - I don’t know. Looks like fear has big eyes.
                    2. avva2012
                      avva2012 13 November 2017 15: 01 New
                      +5
                      Naive traitors! Lieutenant Teterin, I guessed where your ears are growing from, you showed them. Bravo! And, I thought that Stirlitz with a parachute dragging behind his back in the center of Berlin is a joke. Vlasov, this is a Soviet project, and NTS, this is not a CIA project? You know, I don’t even know what is more in you. I think, after all, a sense of impunity.
                      Of course, if with the help of your curators the country falls apart, maybe you will evade responsibility, but in life everything is 50 on 50. Either leave or not. I hope for the second option.
                      1. Lieutenant Teterin
                        Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 15: 56 New
                        +5
                        Quote: avva2012
                        Naive traitors!


                        And who are they? To believe in tales member of the AUCPB Vlasov about the "struggle with the Germans and the Bolsheviks" and join the ROA at that time needed to be either a fool or a naive person. You know, I don’t want to believe that the Soviet system so fooled people that they sincerely believed Vlasov. I prefer to consider them naive people, who entertained themselves with futile hopes.
                        Quote: avva2012
                        NTS, is this not a CIA project?

                        I laugh out loud)) NTS was created in the 20s, when the CIA did not exist at all. Or do you think that the evil imperialists in the time machine made their way into the past to create the NTS?
                        Quote: avva2012
                        with the help of your curators, the country will fall apart,

                        You know, from the experience of the 20th century, the CIA and Mossad and Mi-6, VKPB and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union did the best to cope with the collapse of the country. And yes, what is your strange habit: seek a curator from everyone who disagrees with you? Are you really alien to the idea that a person is able to think independently, without the instructions of parties, committees, secretaries and other ideological riffraff?
          2. kalibr
            kalibr 13 November 2017 12: 27 New
            +1
            And in the 91st nobody wrote this and was not going to die for the State Emergency Committee ...
          3. Olgovich
            Olgovich 14 November 2017 11: 31 New
            +1
            Quote: avva2012
            "I am dying, goodbye to my Homeland," it was written by a Soviet man who, himself, grew up in a Soviet country.

            It was written by a RUSSIAN man, as he wrote and acted ALL THOUSAND YEARS OF RUSSIA to you and arrives after disappeared you
        2. badens1111
          badens1111 13 November 2017 11: 48 New
          +6
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          Or will you argue with "Comrade People's Commissar of Education" Lunacharsky?

          Page not found
          Could not find the page you requested.

          Here are some similar pages from this site:

          vospitanie-novogo-cheloveka
          iz-lekcii-vospitanie-novogo-cheloveka

          So writes Lunacharsky
          V.I. Lenin said: measure your behavior with the basic moral norms of the proletariat. And for the basic moral norms of the proletariat, it’s good that leads to the victory of the proletariat and its ideals, and it’s bad that it harms this.

          In this direction, it is necessary to develop a sense of honor.

          A sense of honor must be developed from an early age. It is necessary that the collective bringing up the authority in this direction, and if the boy or girl badly lied, interfered with collective work, committed violence against the weak, showed anti-Semitism, they should feel ashamed before all comrades for their actions, unworthy members of this collective. It is necessary that the little man blush with shame when he has to admit it to his team.

          This is what a sense of honor means. This is the enormous power of intracall discipline. And if the teacher achieves such discipline, then he will achieve a lot.
          And what kind of morality are you pushing into society? House -2 and Berkova? Is that all of you?
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 12: 40 New
            +4
            I AM? The harlot Berkova? You made me laugh. House-2 was organized by the daughter of Soviet official Sobchak Ksenia Sobchak. But Berkova was brought up by people who were Komsomol members and pioneers. And, if you forgot, in the 90s and late 80s, yesterday’s pioneers and Komsomol members also dreamed of becoming bandits and prostitutes. It was the Soviet system that educated people so that without pressure from the state, they sank to banditry and prostitution. Russian emigrant aristocrats, finding themselves without a homeland in a foreign land, did not allow themselves this.
            And how a sense of honor was brought up by the 30s, when people massively wrote denunciations, and the KGB mocked the detainees.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 13 November 2017 13: 25 New
              +3
              The harlot. What a tall calm! Reminds 90 and transmission on TV. Also a pastor?
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 13: 28 New
                +3
                I am an Orthodox Christian, if you are talking about this. And I used the word "harlot" for two reasons: firstly, I do not like to swear. To make me express myself strongly, I need to be very, very hard pressed. And secondly, the site’s rules prohibit the use of another word with the letter "b", which more accurately describes the behavior of this ... lady.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 13 November 2017 13: 45 New
                  +4
                  I congratulate you, I do too, but I swear and I don’t see anything terrible about it. In addition, I think that the use of this word does not make you more Orthodox, but, funny, yes. Everything is in place and time, right?
                  1. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 14: 00 New
                    +3
                    Quote: avva2012
                    but I swear and don’t see anything terrible about it.

                    And this is a matter of individual morality. Someone considers it permissible for himself to swear, while someone does not. Someone gets drunk to a pig state, and someone allows himself no more than a glass of wine. This question is exclusively individual and nothing more. Like the question of faith and following the rules of the Church. Church Tradition, in the person of the writings of the Church Fathers, considers the use of mat to be a sin, which is why I personally strive not to use such abuse in my speech. Although, sometimes, emotions erupt outward, which I do not hide, and honestly admit. About the reasons for using the word "harlot" I told you above. Firstly, there is no desire to once again express obscene words, and secondly, site rules prohibit the use of obscene language. I did not want to seem to you some more moral or “more Orthodox” person, but I only followed the rules of the site. If you asked me about my attitude to this woman, for example, in personal correspondence, I would certainly use a different, sharper expression.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Hantengri
              Hantengri 13 November 2017 20: 49 New
              +5
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              But Berkova was brought up by people who were Komsomol members and pioneers.

              And who were the people who raised you? They wiped, in the toilet, anus with a red tie? Did they regularly defecate on a Komsomol ticket? Since 3 months they have been dissident - they fought with the Soviets (you like “Ts” like that!) Regime, refusing to eat the totalitarian “Baby” infant formula? If not, how did it happen that they have such a political "Berkova" has grown?
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 22: 30 New
                +3
                Mr. Tengri You are now a wonderful example of impotent anger. You understand that, in fact, you have nothing to object to, and this annoys you greatly. Those who raised me were honest, loving Russia people. Yes, and I myself have been a consistent monarchist, conservative and anti-communist throughout my entire conscious life. And he did not change his position. So with the "political Berkova" you have a blunder. And thanks for the phrase - now I will know how to call the majority of the "comrades who are hesitating with the party". wink
                1. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 14 November 2017 00: 35 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Those who raised me were honest, loving Russia people.

                  That is, they did not live in the USSR and were not pioneers-Komsomol members, and they didn’t even sniff the godless nonsense education (you, judging by the "forceless", you definitely didn’t sniff it). And where did you live somewhere in London and Paris, have you been "consistent monarchists" all your life, and have you been raised the same way? No? Well ... about "Berkova" I hope you remember ...
          2. andrew42
            andrew42 13 November 2017 14: 11 New
            +2
            Quote: badens1111
            if a boy or girl badly lied, interfered with collective work, committed violence against the weak, showed anti-Semitism, they should feel ashamed before all comrades for their actions
            And for “anti-Russianism” (nowadays they drive Russophobia into clichés), “anti-Slavism”, and for other “anti-Sinism” you can NOT REDUCE the boy? - Thank you, badens1111. Well, just a mountain from the shoulders! ... Do not fail to screw about anti-Semitism! Offset!
            1. badens1111
              badens1111 13 November 2017 22: 14 New
              +4
              Quote: andrew42
              if a boy or girl badly lied, interfered with teamwork, committed violence of the strong over the weak,

              Quote: andrew42
              they should feel shame before all comrades for their actions

              Is your frankly weak intellect not read and not accepted? Have you rested like Antokha Blagin in the rubbish of a worldwide Jewish revolution?
              What about the heaps of the current ruling class, mostly of your unloved nationality, why don’t you oppose it, but strive to spit in the past?
              The answer can be from a cannon if you know Russian proverbs, of which I have every right to doubt.
        3. Looking for
          Looking for 14 November 2017 17: 03 New
          -1
          Do not transfer to the affairs of bygone years. The question relates specifically to YOU ​​and YOU like them.
    3. Hlavaty
      Hlavaty 13 November 2017 11: 10 New
      10
      Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
      The feudalists did not abolish the old system of legislation, the social structure of society, the system of military and civil ranks and awards.

      That is, they did NOT CHANGE ANYTHING. And this is in a country where the need for change is not just ripe, but overripe.
      How can you change a country for the better without changing anything?
      That’s why the Russian Empire covered itself with a copper basin because a bunch of trading oligarchs decided that they themselves would rule the country instead of the tsar. They bought deputies / generals and plotted. And then what began with the country, when traders came to power. The collapse of the country, a mess and bloodshed.
      The same thing was repeated later in 1991, when traders in the shadow economy in alliance with the West destroyed the USSR. Still disentangling ...
      1. alstr
        alstr 13 November 2017 12: 26 New
        +3
        I remember in the film "Do not be afraid I am with you", one of the main villains, the local buy said the following phrase: "I want to live in a new way, but so that everything remains as before."

        Here is February 1917 and passed under this slogan.
      2. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 12: 41 New
        +4
        And why did they need to change something if it was in the competence of the Constituent Assembly, and not the Provisional Government?
        1. Hlavaty
          Hlavaty 13 November 2017 16: 10 New
          +4
          Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
          And why did they need to change something, if it was in the competence of the Constituent Assembly,

          And then, what else, they did not shine before the Constituent Assembly.
          Russia is on the verge of rebellion, and the tsar first dispersed the Duma, and then he denied himself, leaving no legitimate government. They tried to fill the void at the top of the government (attention!) The Provisional Government, elected by the Provisional Committee of the dissolved Duma !!! Which also did not want to change anything!
          As a result, anarchy arose in the country, which is a disaster for a country like Russia.
          1. andrew42
            andrew42 13 November 2017 18: 55 New
            +1
            Exactly. When an irresponsible audience is in power, wait for more tenacious guys to come for power, without sentiment, not taking funds, not reckoning with losses in the attracted "masses". Here the Bolsheviks jumped out. Jackpot. And then they retook the deck, for themselves loved ones. Fortunately, the slogans put forward were such that the current breeders still “study, study, and study again,” as the Great Lenin said.
            1. badens1111
              badens1111 13 November 2017 22: 16 New
              +3
              Quote: andrew42
              When an irresponsible audience is in power, wait for more tenacious guys to come for power, without sentiment, not taking funds, not reckoning with losses in the attracted "masses"

              Did you confuse the past from 1991-1993? No? And why so, here I remember, I don’t remember there?
              Quote: andrew42
              Fortunately, the slogans put forward are such that the current bred

              Everything worked out, you believed them and still believe, nowhere else to go, judging by your writings.
              1. andrew42
                andrew42 14 November 2017 11: 20 New
                +2
                1) I remember everything perfectly. I have all the moves recorded :)) In 1991-1993, the period of lack of power had just come, if you did not distort and mean power in general in an INDEPENDENT state. And in these years other guys came, not so much for power as such (because power implies at least minimal responsibility as well), but came for state assets, for tearing apart, with complete props of power in fragments of the state. 2) Believe the Bolsheviks? - They died. Where are they, your Bolsheviks? In 1991, such a political force had a place to be? Maybe in the 2000 "Putin" year? - I have all the moves recorded here. Those same “Bolsheviks,” to say, “faithful Leninists,” but in fact Trotskyists and “new red nobles,” they almost ended during the internal party wars inside the CPSU in 1929-1939. And thank God. 3) Do you read between the lines. Once again I state, for those who are in the tank: The Romanov device of Russia has really rotted, fact. But, February and October 1917 - these are 2 phases of a very definitely modeled turmoil with the goal of destroying Russian statehood in ANY form. Instead, they put the medicine on a cutting table. and what happened AFTER the victory of the 2nd revolution, what forces were involved in the matter inside the victors' camp is a completely different story, and the invariance of the red slogans has nothing to do with it, they simply beat each other in the internal party struggle. The Red Statemen won the Red Russophobes, that’s all.
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. Flying Dutchman
    Flying Dutchman 13 November 2017 10: 11 New
    10
    Anti-people rebellion ... Anti-people power is one that acts against the will of the majority of the people and violates its vital interests. The civil war subsequently showed that the majority of the Russians were for the Bolsheviks and the defeat of the “whites” clearly shows this. So, it was the “white project” that was anti-people. Yes, just like that: in a civil war, elections are not falsified. And also this strange logic: they say, white can be shot "for treason", but not red. Yes, and "millions shot by the red" ... where are they from? This peasants and workers were many millions, but not a handful of bourgeois. Like now, that the oligarchs are millions? But, after all, for their sake the current "white project". Mocking people sooner or later leads to the collapse of the anti-people regime.
    1. A.V.S.
      A.V.S. 13 November 2017 11: 41 New
      +4
      Quote: Flying Dutchman
      that the choice of the majority of Russians was for the Bolsheviks

      Elections to the Constituent Assembly gave the Bolsheviks only 22%. So the choice of the majority of Russians was AGAINST the Bolsheviks.
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 13 November 2017 11: 54 New
        +6
        Quote: A.W.S.
        Constituent Assembly

        Your CSS is an insignificant and worthless collection of talkers, therefore, they dispersed this whole Sharashkin office, because the continuation of the chatter led to the complete disintegration of the country.
        The Constituent Assembly as soon as possible was to assemble the Provisional Government, which all the time dragged on with this matter. For seven months it prepared the Regulation on the elections to the Constituent Assembly, although, in general, taking into account the experience of elections to the State Duma of various convocations, it was possible to prepare this document in the size of fifty pages within one to two months, to hold elections in the middle of summer, and by fall, the Constituent Assembly would have completed work.

        However, the interim ministers really liked the power, and therefore they delayed the holding of the Constitutional Court, several times calling for elections and postponing them. The upshot was that there was practically no power left in Russia, chaos was growing, failures were pursuing at the front, and the military was already thinking of dictatorship and restoring order with a “strong hand”, the first signal of which was the Kornilov rebellion.
        Having come to power, the Soviet government did not cancel the elections to the Constituent Assembly, moreover, it did not “change the election procedure“ under the Bolsheviks ”, although the alignment of political forces in the country changed. The only thing that was new was the conditions for the start of the work of the Constitutional Council - it could not begin to work before 400 deputies arrived, that is, more than 50% of the amount to be elected
        Read on and don’t tell us here the myths about the Foundation .. https: //cont.ws/@ralexd/284893
        1. A.V.S.
          A.V.S. 13 November 2017 12: 07 New
          +5
          Quote: badens1111
          US-insignificant and worthless talker assembly

          So the Bolsheviks elected to the Constitutional Council are also talkers, and we’ll write it down ... Further, these “talkers” -deputates created anti-Bolshevik resistance in the country, which fought against the communist dictatorship for 5 years. In Petrograd, c / d came in second with 27% of the vote, and in 11 from 38 provincial cities the cadets even managed to come out on top, pushing the Bolsheviks out (in particular, in Voronezh - 58%, in Kaluga - 49%).
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 13 November 2017 12: 12 New
            +5
            Quote: A.W.S.
            So the Bolsheviks elected to the U.S. are also talkers, and we’ll write it down ...

            You can write anything to yourself, only these Bolsheviks have gathered the country, and your chatty community, together with the Interventors in the army of all sorts of Whites and in gangs of various kinds, robbed the country and killed people.
            Quote: A.W.S.
            anti-Bolshevik resistance, which fought for 5 years with the communist dictatorship.

            Five years? Yeah, at 22 kicked out as unnecessary trash. Everything else, banal criminality, which found its place in places conducive to recovery.
            1. A.V.S.
              A.V.S. 13 November 2017 13: 08 New
              +5
              Quote: badens1111
              your chatty community, along with the Interventors

              And how many terrible interventionists were there?
              The strength of the interventionists (losses are indicated in parentheses)
              Japan - 72 thousand (1400)
              France - 35 thousand (50)
              Britain (including dominions) - 22 thousand (600)
              USA - 15,5 thousand (500)
              Greece - 8 thousand (400)
              Romania - 4 thousand (200)
              Czechoslovakians - 39 thousand (4000)
              Serbs - 4 thousand (500)
              Italy - 4 thousand
              Danes - 800 people

              Total: 205 thousand people
              The number of Soviet internationalists :
              Hungarians - up to 100 thousand
              40 thousand Chinese
              Latvians-40 thousand in the Red Army, total approx. 70 thousand
              Austrians, Germans, Czechs, Poles ....
              Total internationalists: 250-300 thousand people
              1. BAI
                BAI 13 November 2017 17: 05 New
                +2
                And how many terrible interventionists were there

                Well, a natural world war broke out in 1/6 of the land.
              2. badens1111
                badens1111 13 November 2017 22: 20 New
                +2
                Quote: A.W.S.
                Latvians

                But they were not part of the Republic of Ingushetia, are these Latvians?
                And the Chinese in Russia, who brought in such quantities? And why be strange that they did not fight in your gangs, but in the Red Army?
                Quote: A.W.S.
                Hungarians - up to 100 thousand

                Wow, this is such a digital ???
                And where did the Czechoslovak corps fought on the side of the whites, and the Polish legion, and so on? Again selectivity?
                And ANTANTA is white-furry, that's just innocent, isn't it?
                Major General William Sidney Graves (William Sidney Graves, 1865-1940) commanded the expeditionary force of the US Army in Siberia in 1918-1920. Upon retiring, the general simply - by accident! And honestly! What is the point of lying not about your story, it is “possible” to embellish it. He wrote what was - the book "America's Siberian Adventure (1918-1920)." We even published it in 1932, with a circulation of 5000 copies.

                Especially in view of today.
                A small selection of the most informative moments from the book.
                The original text. The full text of the Siberian memoirs of a respected general lies here. Https: //www.marxists.org/archive/graves/193
                1 / siberian-adventure / index.htm
                How fortunate that our revolutionary great-grandfathers withstood, did not give up and won, did not allow the victory of the whites in the Civil War in general and the notorious admiral in particular. Happiness for all; even for those who are now thoughtfully telling about the victory of the "red-headed louts" and "Jewish commissars", longing for the crunch of the French roll.
                Source: http://fishki.net/2136496-vospominanie-o-kolchake
                -prostogo-amerikanskogo-generala-grjejvsa.html © Fishki.net

                But White would have won - terror would have been all-consuming.

                Here is the evidence for you:

                Book of Oleg Artyushenko THE TRUTH ABOUT THE WHITE TERROR

                Excerpts from the book:

                Kolchak Government Minister Baron Budberg wrote in his diary:

                The degenerates who arrived from the detachment boast that during punitive expeditions they gave the Bolsheviks to be slaughtered by the Chinese, having previously cut the tendons under their knees by prisoners (“so as not to run away”); they also boast that they buried the Bolsheviks alive, with the bottom of the pit covered with entrails released from the buried places (“so that it would be softer”).
                https://mediarepost.ru/news/49807-pochemu-krasnye
                -pobedili-belyh-svideteli-o-zverstvah-belyh-v-gra
                zhdanskuyu-voynu.html
              3. Olgovich
                Olgovich 14 November 2017 12: 26 New
                +1
                And when you ask the Bolsheviks to bring “battles” and “battles” with the French, amers, they fall into ... righteous anger! lol
          2. avva2012
            avva2012 13 November 2017 12: 41 New
            +5
            Further, these "talkers" -deputates created anti-Bolshevik resistance in the country, which for 5 years fought against the communist dictatorship.

            How KOMUCH fought in Samara and what "successes" these "best of the best" have achieved, much has been written.
            1. Hantengri
              Hantengri 13 November 2017 18: 39 New
              +2
              Quote: avva2012
              How KOMUCH fought in Samara and what "successes" these "best of the best" have achieved, much has been written.

              You would, the doctor, still ask, sick: on whose bayonets, this lump, drove into Samara and to whom these bayonets obeyed! laughing Not sure what they know.
          3. Hlavaty
            Hlavaty 13 November 2017 16: 17 New
            +3
            Quote: A.W.S.
            In Petrograd, c / d came in second with 27% of the vote, and in 11 from 38 provincial cities the cadets even managed to come out on top, pushing the Bolsheviks out (in particular, in Voronezh - 58%, in Kaluga - 49%).

            Well, what are the achievements of these chosen ones? What could they do for the country? In my opinion, the statistics you cited show how far any election is far from reality. From what the country really needs at a particular moment in time.
        2. Lieutenant Teterin
          Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 12: 45 New
          +6
          Quote: badens1111
          Your CSS is an insignificant and worthless collection of talkers, therefore they dispersed this whole Sharashkin office, because the continuation of the chatter led to the complete disintegration of the country

          It was the only institution in those conditions that really expressed the will of the people. The people voted for the deputies of the CSS. And the government was to be formed by deputies of the CSS, and not a bunch of Bolsheviks who carried out an armed seizure of power and shot popular demonstrations in support of the CSS.
      2. Alexander Greene
        Alexander Greene 14 November 2017 01: 14 New
        +3
        Quote: A.W.S.
        Elections to the Constituent Assembly gave the Bolsheviks only 22%. So the choice of the majority of Russians was AGAINST the Bolsheviks.

        Marxism teaches that the working class can take power into its own hands only in a revolutionary way, that the bourgeoisie will not let it win in the elections.
        Proletariat fightsThe result is October 1917. The bourgeoisie sneaking to powerThe result is August 1991.
    2. andrew42
      andrew42 13 November 2017 18: 37 New
      +1
      I am not an apologist for the “lieutenants Golitsyns” and the “Cornets of Obolensky,” but I cannot agree with you. Where was he that "White Project"? Where did you dig it from? A project is a system of assigned tasks, outlined measures and coordinated actions. What you called the "white project" is called REACTION. That is precisely why the speeches of the so-called “whites” were scattered, motley, and “regional,” with different slogans, with different understandings of goals. With a lack of understanding of WHAT exactly they advocate. Against what. and then it was not completely clear. Against the Reds, against the "Kerensky", against the monarchy, against the local nationalists, or even simply "against the mess" - who is much worth it. So what kind of "white project" are we talking about? - There was no project. There were separate regional leaders of the “whites” with their consortium of supporters. They had only one thing in common (well, not counting Miller in the north) - not to let Russia break. But WHAT exactly Russia, they found it difficult to decide. The Reds have made up their minds - let’s let us break the “labor proletarian”, while the White - no. Secondly, do not dissemble that "the majority has chosen." Not born yesterday. Today, “the majority chooses” Putin over and over again, while everyone is talking about the bourgeoisie who have ravaged the state property of the USSR and snickering around “Edinaya Rossiya”, which careerists have never accumulated. Chooses on "lack of fish". Again, according to your logic, in the Time of Troubles, that: “the majority chose” False Dmitry? Polish and papal invaders- ,? Well, since they had been nightmare of Muscovy for such a long period, they apparently "chose". But the "stupid" Kozma Minin associates were in the minority (and it’s true, Nizhny, Vyatka, and Perm remained the non-devastated regions). And therefore it is not necessary to simplify about "anti-people." The clash of layers, layers, and even regions of the former Empire was anti-national. The clash was fueled by an “insulted” nobility, and the boys in leather jackets, on the other hand, were very comfortable handing out “red promises” at this new all-Russian conflagration.
      1. A.V.S.
        A.V.S. 13 November 2017 20: 35 New
        +2
        Quote: andrew42
        Where was he that "White Project"?
        Quote: andrew42
        With a lack of understanding of WHAT exactly they advocate. Against what. and then it was not completely clear.

        There was such an event: Civil war in Finland and there, imagine the White Project won. Moreover, in the composition as in Russia: monarchists, nationalists, liberals and conservatives against the "red" - Finnish Bolsheviks and socialists. Even the interventionists and internationalists took part. And Finland the Great, United won and indivisible.
        1. long in stock.
          long in stock. 13 November 2017 22: 21 New
          +6
          again you are not smart with yours ... then the white project in Finland simply cut all the Russians — and the officers who served in Mannerheim and certainly weren’t red ... here’s an eyewitness to you
          Here is what IalmarLinder, Mannerheim’s son-in-law, wrote (his article was published in Finland on May 28, 1918): “What is happening in the country is terrible. Despite the ban of the commander in chief, executions continue uninterruptedly. Red madness gave way to white terror. The shootings all the more give the impression of complete arbitrariness, since victims are selected and executed in places where no acts of violence were committed.
          In prisoner-of-war camps, prisoners die like flies. ”
          After the capture of Tammerfors, 200 Russians were executed at the Tammerfors station. Among them were white Russian officers who were hiding in the city. ”And now the main liberators of Finland who made her the Great One and Indivisible
          In the morning of April 12, in Helsingfors, skirmishes between detachments of white and red Finns began. By noon, German troops entered the suburbs of the city. On April 13, a detachment of German minesweepers entered the Helsingfors raid and opened artillery fire around the city. After the minesweepers, the German coastal defense battleship Beowulf appeared on the raid and began firing 240 mm cannons at the positions of the Reds. In the evening of April 12 and on the night of April 12 to 13, the Germans landed a large landing force in Helsingfors.
          On April 13, in addition to the Beowulf, the Westfalen and Posen dreadnoughts entered the Helsingfors internal raid. On the same day, despite the protests of the Russian command, the Germans occupied the Sveaborg fortress. And now about the Finnish appetites -
          On March 7, 1918, that is, in the midst of a civil war, the head of the Finnish government, Swinhuvud, stated that Finland was ready to make peace with Soviet Russia on “moderate conditions”, that is, if East Karelia, part of the Murmansk Railway and the entire Kola Peninsula depart to Finland . eat don’t slap yourself ... so you are definitely a Russian person and love your homeland?
        2. andrew42
          andrew42 14 November 2017 11: 23 New
          0
          This is not a White Project. This is a Finnish nationalist (I see nothing wrong with such a definition) project. The Finns got their own country. If they were helped by the Papuans, and not the "old Russians", this Finnish project would not have become Papuan.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 14 November 2017 12: 30 New
            +3
            Quote: andrew42
            This is not a White Project. This is a Finnish nationalist (I see nothing wrong with such a definition) project. The Finns got their own country. If they were helped by the Papuans, and not the "old Russians", this Finnish project would not have become Papuan.

            Exactly what is white is for Finland.
          2. long in stock.
            long in stock. 14 November 2017 19: 25 New
            0
            Seriously? and why then the Germans fought the main fights and not the Finns? Reveal the secret, how did it happen? the same Helsinki Finns entered behind the Germans. is that how?
            1. A.V.S.
              A.V.S. 15 November 2017 11: 12 New
              0
              The White Project is “a nationalistic project.” Any nationalist stands for “Great, Single and Indivisible Fatherland.” So both the Russian Army and the Finnish Army fought for the same principles, only the Fatherland was different. Yes and Denikin was more liberal than Mannerheim (the Marshal considered the Constituent Assembly absolutely unnecessary). So the victory of the “White Finns” (as Soviet propaganda said) is an example of what the defeat of the “Reds” in Russia would lead to. As you know, life in Finland has always been better and freer than in the USSR and eReF. Therefore, when the USSR in 1939 decided to arrange the Finns with Soviet power with collective farms and the Gulag, these same “white Finns” resisted so fiercely that even Generalissimo Dzhugashvili broke off.
  8. Freeman
    Freeman 13 November 2017 11: 31 New
    +2
    On November 14, the Red Guards and soldiers, who were able to take control of most of the city, intensified shelling City Duma buildings (today the Lenin Museum on Red Square)

    For reference.
    Today, in the building of the Lenin Museum there are exhibition spaces of the Historical Museum, and in the new pavilion in the courtyard of the building - the Museum of the Patriotic War of 1812.
    Although the museum was not officially closed, the Museum of the Patriotic War of 2012 was opened in its premises since 1812. In fact, the Museum of V.I. Lenin is liquidated... / wiki /
  9. Lieutenant Teterin
    Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 13: 29 New
    +4
    Quote: Flying Dutchman
    But, after all, for their sake the current "white project".

    Sorry, but the legal successor of the RSFSR and the USSR under the name of the Russian Federation is definitely not the state of the "white project".
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 13 November 2017 17: 09 New
      +4
      Right! They have not yet reached the level of the "white project" when pieces of Russian territory are promised to foreign states. What a pity for you?
      1. Lieutenant Teterin
        Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 17: 28 New
        +4
        Quote: avva2012
        when pieces of Russian territory are promised to foreign states.

        You are a strange person. Can't you tell the real story from writing in the alternative story genre? Whites never in order to achieve their goals in the war, they did not trade Russia. Unlike the Bolsheviks, who gave a million square kilometers of Russia to the Germans in the Brest Peace.
        For example, Estonians offered Yudenich several divisions in exchange for recognizing Estonia’s independence. He refused. Do you know what you answered? "There is no Estonia, there is an integral part of Russia - Estonia." The same thing happened with other white commanders. Neither Kolchak, nor Wrangel, nor Denikin ever promised anyone the transfer of a meter of Russian land.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 13 November 2017 17: 48 New
          +5
          And what were they, these Denikins about to deliver for? Thanks, nobody gives anything. Gold Kolchak? So it’s not a fact that by the end of the Civil War, it would still be. Not the fact that Kolchak would give it. Next, imagine that the “whites” have won. So what? Immediately united to select a new king? So Wrangel openly said that Russia is not Romanov’s patrimony. And among themselves, these saviors, were not in the best of relations. Thus, a destroyed country, but unlike Soviet Russia, is accessible to any imperialist predators, and also, without a single government with separatist sentiments on the outskirts. People looked and behaved gentlemanly, right? You, id .... don’t count people there.
          There was no alternative story, but reality. Talk about spheres of influence in Russia after the victory over Bolshevism was conducted quite actively. Just do not write in the style of Olgovich, and links hde? Information is not confidential, who will be interested will find. By the way, that's why I write to interest those who read it. You have already decided. Budenovka and parachute is too late to hide.
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 13 November 2017 18: 00 New
            +4
            ps Yes, I almost forgot. If the "whites" won, there would be no movement, "Hands off Soviet Russia." Nothing would have prevented the Entente from tearing what was left of the country. It would not even be like in China after the 1911 year, worse, because the piece was more tasty.
            1. Lieutenant Teterin
              Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 18: 21 New
              +4
              Do you know that this movement originated in the wake of fatigue from the four-year massacre in the WWII? And that soldiers, fatally tired of the war, like their families, directly demanded that the governments of England and France not get involved in the civil war in Russia? These factors prevented both real and hypothetical history
              Quote: avva2012
              Entente break what is left of the country.
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 13 November 2017 18: 31 New
                +4
                Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                And that soldiers, fatally tired of the war, like their families, directly demanded that the governments of England and France not get involved in the civil war in Russia?

                And in Russia, therefore, aren't you tired? And besides, just in the fourth \ year of this won, there should have been a moment \ division of land, it’s clear where the peasant in his overcoat strove. You don’t understand, behind the crunch of the French roll you hear nothing do not wish.
                “I must say that the February Revolution of 1917 was the victory of the Western liberals of that time, and in just 9 months they led the country to complete collapse. Today, the current liberals, who have been ruining the country for 25 years, are afraid of the return of the Soviet Union like fire.
                I always remember what General Brusilov said, explaining why he went to the Red Army: "Because Lenin saved Russia.""
                1. Lieutenant Teterin
                  Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 18: 44 New
                  +4
                  The source of your entrancing quote seems to me that modesty has prevented you from calling, right?
                  1. badens1111
                    badens1111 13 November 2017 19: 01 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                    The source of your entrancing quote seems to me that modesty has prevented you from calling, right?

                    Have you decided to flash your mind? You need to know the great compatriots and what they say .. but it seems to you, to their level ... very, very far.
                    Receive and sign.
                    http://www.nationaljournal.ru/articles/2017-11-07
                    / 4165 /
                    1. Lieutenant Teterin
                      Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 19: 53 New
                      +4
                      Why do you give a link to the fanatical elderly communist Alferov? Do you seriously believe that a communist physicist is capable of objectively understanding history? You would still refer to Chudinov or Fomenko with Nosovsky.))
                      1. Looking for
                        Looking for 14 November 2017 17: 18 New
                        -1
                        But is the fact of the existence of the RF, the successor of the USSR, not a confirmation of the veracity of this expression.
              2. avva2012
                avva2012 14 November 2017 07: 59 New
                +2
                That is, the expeditionary forces landed in Arkhangelsk, Odessa, Vladivostok, PMV and did not smell? And did they leave from there because the families of the military rebelled? Listen to yourself! This is called severe impairment of logical thinking.
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 14 November 2017 12: 37 New
              +2
              Quote: avva2012
              ps Yes, I almost forgot. If the "whites" won, there would be no movement, "Hands off Soviet Russia." Nothing would have prevented the Entente from tearing what was left of the country. It would not even be like in China after the 1911 year, worse, because the piece was more tasty.

              Some dull finger-sucked “would” fool
              But there are FACTS: Serbia completely occupied by the Germans, almost completely Romania, remained only formally in the war. BUT, after it received huge territories, reparations, reputation. And-no one "broke" them and didn’t put them into eternal bondage. Like the French and Angles, the US debt is forgiven.
              And you have some fiction. Naked But how are you without them? Life will collapse otherwise ... lol
          2. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 18: 18 New
            +5
            Quote: avva2012
            And what were they, these Denikins about to deliver for? Thanks, nobody gives anything. Gold Kolchak? So it’s not a fact that by the end of the Civil War, it would still be. Not the fact that Kolchak would give it.

            These are already your thoughts. And the reality is that Denikin: firstly, was a supporter of the Constituent Assembly; secondly, he recognized the supremacy of Kolchak.
            Quote: avva2012
            Immediately united to select a new king?

            In 1613, different people with different ideas about the future of Russia managed to unite and choose a compromise figure on the throne. And this time they would come to a compromise. With regard to the form of government, the personality of the king, etc.
            Quote: avva2012
            So Wrangel openly said that Russia is not Romanov’s patrimony.

            When did the monarchist Wrangel say such a thing? Provide a source. I do not intend to seek evidence of your position in the dispute.
            Quote: avva2012
            Talk about spheres of influence in Russia after the victory over Bolshevism was conducted quite actively. Just do not write in the style of Olgovich, and links hde?

            I, like Mr. Olgovich, wish to have a reasoned argument. Therefore, I ask you a direct question: who and where conducted such "conversations"? In which archive are letters or documents signed by whites that promise someone “spheres of influence” in Russia?
            1. badens1111
              badens1111 13 November 2017 18: 54 New
              +4
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              And the reality is that Denikin: firstly, was a supporter of the Constituent Assembly; secondly, he recognized the supremacy of Kolchak.

              Kolchak who served the Aglitz crown? So who did Denikin serve? Correctly, the same Aglitz crown.
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              In 1613, different people with different ideas about the future of Russia managed to unite and choose a compromise figure on the throne. And this time they would come to a compromise. With regard to the form of government, the personality of the king, etc.

              True, the Troubles were great and what they wanted to say with this fact. If, as a result of 17-22, the people showed confidence not in you, but in the Bolsheviks? You really didn’t catch that in your reference to the Troubles, you directly justified October. ?
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              When did the monarchist Wrangel say such a thing? Provide a source. I do not intend to seek evidence of your position in the dispute.

              But you must give a refutation, but you don’t have it, therefore the reference to the words of Wrangel is correct.
              Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
              I, like Mr. Olgovich, wish to have a reasoned argument. Therefore, I ask you a direct question: who and where conducted such "conversations"? In which archive are letters or documents signed by whites that promise someone “spheres of influence” in Russia?

              But aren't they?
              How many tears were shed by the bourgeoisie about the dispersal of the Constituent Assembly, what indignation they burned against the Bolsheviks who corrected democracy. And the most amazing thing is that these same people enthusiastically welcomed the dispersal of B.N. Yeltsin of the Russian parliament and the shooting of the White House. They have not seen any violation of democracy here. Have something to argue?
              Mass terror began not red, but white. During the October battles in Moscow, the cadets who fraudulently entered the Kremlin captured the soldiers of the 56th reserve regiment. They were ordered to line up supposedly to check at the monument to Alexander II, and then machine-gun and rifle fire was suddenly opened against unarmed people. About 300 people were killed. This happened on October 28, 1917. The next day in Petrograd, the Red Guards and revolutionary soldiers suppressed the rebellion of the cadets. All captured ordinary members of the putsch were subsequently released.
              Have something to argue?
              Memoirs G.Ya. Willem, would you like to read? Everything is written there that your whites carried to the people.
              And the fact that you and others like you are doing in Russia since 90 are well described here.
              http://zoomir.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=2385
              The “Entente Plan” was adopted at a meeting in Paris 23 of December 1917 of the year and promulgated by US President Woodrow Wilson on the eve of 1918. The plan provided for the division of Russia into spheres of influence and was called the “Convention Terms”.
              At the end of December 1917, representatives of France and Great Britain Georges Clemenceau and Robert Cecile signed a secret convention on dividing the south of Russia into areas of interest and areas of future operations of the British and French troops.

              The English "sphere of action" included the Caucasus, the Cossack regions of the Don and Kuban, Central Asia, and the French - Ukraine, Bessarabia and the Crimea.
              London and Paris agreed that henceforth they would consider Russia not as an ally on the Entente, but as a territory for the implementation of their interventionist plans. Https: //aftershock.news/? Q = node / 462408 & a
              mp; full
              Got it?
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 20: 31 New
                +4
                Quote: badens1111
                Kolchak who served the Aglitz crown? So who did Denikin serve?

                Learn the story. Kolchak never served the English. After the abdication of the Emperor, he filed a request for employment, which the British did not even have time to consider. What the doctor of historical sciences Handorin proved with success. https://mikhael-mark.livejournal.com/456459.html
                Quote: badens1111
                if, as a result of 17-22, the people showed confidence not in you, but in the Bolsheviks?

                Confidence? Under the bayonets of the Chinese, Latvians and Hungarians? Above in the discussion, figures were given of the number of foreigners in the service of the Bolsheviks. If the people supported the Reds, then why did your Latvian arrows shoot you away from Ulyanov from "people's love"? Not Siberian. Not Tula. Latvian. And in the elections of 1917, the people did not vote for the Bolsheviks, but for the Social Revolutionaries.
                Quote: badens1111
                they didn’t really catch it. what, in your reference to the Time of Troubles, did you directly justify October too. Having stopped the Troubles arranged by the Whites ??

                Badens, it never dawned on you that your October is not the end, but the height of the Time of Troubles, it is akin to the occupation of the Kremlin by the Poles. And the Volunteer Army is an analogue of the militia of Minin and Pozharsky.
                Quote: badens1111
                you must give a refutation, but you don’t have it, therefore the reference to the words of Wrangel is correct.

                I AM? Obliged to refute something said is unknown by whom? Badenss, you impudent, but in moderation. In a dispute, the burden of proof of position lies with the providing party. If Mr. Abba cited the source of the quotation, I could challenge it for some reason. Without a source, these words are just fiction.
                Quote: badens1111
                enthusiastically welcomed the dispersal of B.N. Yeltsin of the Russian parliament and the shooting of the White House. They have not seen any violation of democracy here. Anything to argue with?

                Yeltsin’s actions were illegal; I have said this more than once, including to you. However, Yeltsin, as a prominent party official in violent reprisals against opponents, had studied in the History of the CPSU.

                Quote: badens1111
                Memoirs G.Ya. Willem, do you want to read? Everything is written there that your whites carried to the people.?

                Are these not the memoirs cited by the red propagandists, but which cannot be found anywhere?)))
                Quote: badens1111
                The Entente Plan ”was adopted at a meeting in Paris on December 23, 1917 and made public by US President Woodrow Wilson on the eve of 1918. The plan provided for the division of Russia into spheres of influence and was called the “Terms of the Convention”.

                Baden, be consistent and speak to the end.
                Agreement then
                concluded in Paris on December 23, 1917 in connection with the October Revolution in Russia and the armistice between the Soviet government and Germany on the Eastern Front, as a result of which Russia actually withdrew from the war on the side of the Entente. ****** It was stated that the agreement was directed exclusively against the Central Powers (Germany and its allies); it was supposed to avoid direct clashes with the Bolsheviks. It was also decided to support, but not recognize, the governments of Finland, the Baltic states, Ukraine, Cossack regions and Transcaucasia, which sought sovereignty from Russia.

                Doesn’t this change the picture? The Entente is trying to reassemble the collapsed "thanks" to the Bolsheviks front in the East. And it is precisely because of the actions of the Bolsheviks that the Allies begin to neglect Russia. So Baden, do not try to whitewash the Bolsheviks, but rather learn history. Not on Bolshevik agitation.
                1. badens1111
                  badens1111 13 November 2017 20: 44 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Doesn’t this change the picture

                  Your lie? It does not change anything, a lie and nothing more.
                  1. Lieutenant Teterin
                    Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 20: 59 New
                    +4
                    Do you call these facts a lie? Baden, it's not even funny anymore. Know how to admit defeat as well as your mistakes.
                    1. badens1111
                      badens1111 13 November 2017 22: 26 New
                      +2
                      I admit your defeat, for a long time I didn’t laugh like reading your moaning.
                      1. Lieutenant Teterin
                        Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 22: 35 New
                        +4
                        Baden, when will you stop using elementary school style arguments? laughing
                2. Alexander Greene
                  Alexander Greene 14 November 2017 01: 26 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Kolchak never served the English.

                  English uniform
                  Shoulder strap french
                  Japanese tobacco,
                  Omsk ruler.
                  Do you recognize?
                  Even the soldiers of the White Army sang these verses.
                3. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 14 November 2017 08: 29 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Learn the story. Kolchak never served the English. After the abdication of the Emperor, he filed a request for employment, which the British did not even have time to consider. What the doctor of historical sciences Handorin proved with success. https://mikhael-mark.livejournal.com/456459.html
                  laughing Excuse me, Lieutenant, but impartial scientific research does not begin with the words: “The myth born of traitors-Bolsheviks ...” You can’t read further because it’s so clear that Mr. Khandorin was biased and proved exactly what he wanted to prove using only “convenient” ones facts and not noticing the "uncomfortable."
                4. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 14 November 2017 12: 42 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  Confidence? Under the bayonets of the Chinese, Latvians and Hungarians? Above in the discussion, figures were given of the number of foreigners in the service of the Bolsheviks. If the people supported the Reds, then why did your Latvian arrows shoot you away from Ulyanov from "people's love"? Not Siberian. Not Tula. Latvian. And in the elections of 1917, the people did not vote for the Bolsheviks, but for the Social Revolutionaries.

                  These are the FACTS. but if they take Baden, their life will collapse! We have already lived it, but, as it turns out, they spent their whole lives on the chaff. It’s hard for them to admit their own, yes ..
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 14 November 2017 08: 06 New
              +1
              When did the monarchist Wrangel say such a thing? Provide a source.

              Select a segment or an entire statement with a computer mouse, hover over the selected text, right key and voila, find various sources of this expression.
              At the expense of 1613 of the year and troubled times. Once again, there are no direct parallels between the 1917 year and the Time of Troubles, both in appearance and in content. Other times and other relationships between people. In 1917 there was parochialism? The question was, which of the princes is closer to the Rurik? The same recipes that were in 1613 did not solve the problem in 1917. And the fact that the Troubles of 1613 did not end with a year, do you know?
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 15 November 2017 10: 17 New
                +2
                Quote: avva2012
                And the fact that the Time of Troubles in 1613 did not end, do you know?

                In Russian historiography, it just ends in 1613. http://historykratko.com/smutnoe-vremya-smuta
                Before arguing, you would read a history book ....
        2. long in stock.
          long in stock. 13 November 2017 22: 25 New
          +4
          English newspaper "Daily Herald" from 30 / VIII 1920, we read and enjoy .. are you literally trained Mr. Pseudo Lieutenant?
          1. Lieutenant Teterin
            Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 22: 48 New
            +4
            Is it you "about Wrangel’s secret treaty with France", information about which appeared for some reason in the British trade union newspaper, after the visit of the Bolshevik Lev Kamenev to England? http://leon-spb67.livejournal.com/958160
            .html
            Heard about this fake.
            1. long in stock.
              long in stock. 13 November 2017 22: 58 New
              +4
              Well, prove that it’s a fake. Or do you really want to tell me about the purely platonic feelings of the Entente? Let’s have room before you. On the one hand, the newspaper. Not a document, of course, but still. On the other hand, there’s a live magazine .... link which does not open .. well, here's another newspaper, not a trade union. the English newspaper Manchester Guardian wrote: “He was, in essence, a tool in the hands of a powerful business organization, whose main apartment is in Paris. This society, called the “Russian-French Society for the Use of Southern Russia and the Crimea,” was established in early 1920 with a capital of 12 million francs by a group of French-Russian financiers and industrialists. The company included the main shareholders of the iron mines of Krivoy Rog and the coal mines of Donbass. The company bought large stocks of dresses and equipment for the Wrangel army, hoping to pay for supplies by selling bread and other Crimean products. Later they expected to continue the business by exporting iron and coal. They actually managed to bring several ships to Marseille with goods sold at a good price ”[13].
              1. Lieutenant Teterin
                Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 23: 55 New
                +3
                If the link does not open, then here’s a dubbing for you:

                https://leon-spb67.livejournal.com/958160.html

                Here is a quote from the article itself:
                The English Wiki writes that this is a working union newspaper. He also writes that exactly in August 1920 Lev Kamenev came to London and British intelligence intercepted his telegram to Lenin, in which he reported that he had transferred 40 thousand pounds to this newspaper and promised another 10 thousand in the near future:
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Herald_(UK_ne
                wspape)

                In August 1920 Lev Kamenev, a Bolshevik diplomat visiting London on official business, sent a telegram addressed to Lenin in Moscow which was intercepted and deciphered by British intelligence. The telegram stated that Kamenev had paid £ 40,000.00 to the Daily Herald, and a further payment of £ 10,000.00 would be made shortly. [1]

                And it turns out an interesting picture. Kamenev brings money to the trade union newspaper of England ... and then a publication about Wrangel appears. In addition to this publication, the treaty is not mentioned anywhere, the text is not in any archive, not even in any memoirs it is mentioned. Conclusion? Information about the contract - Bolshevik fake.
                1. long in stock.
                  long in stock. 14 November 2017 07: 42 New
                  +2
                  the conclusion is data somewhere in the British and French archives. An analogy can be made with the Hess case, the term of secrecy was extended? why? the conclusion made on the basis of 1 telegram? You certainly excuse me, but what about the conspiracy the Bolsheviks owned ... and money we could have passed it unnoticed ... so it’s more of a pull for a fake ... we still don’t consider French sources .. and yet, this person doesn’t say that it’s a fake, he asks where to look ... and yes it is very strange that it is impossible to find this newspaper in the British archives, is this probably the Kremlin’s hand hid all copies? such inconsistencies do not bother you?
                2. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 14 November 2017 12: 44 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
                  And it turns out an interesting picture. Kamenev brings money to the trade union newspaper of England ...

                  This agreement "-NOT in nature in any archive. That's all!
                  1. long in stock.
                    long in stock. 14 November 2017 19: 33 New
                    +2
                    it’s you have no brains in nature .. which however is not surprising. the building does not contribute to the development of thinking .. especially when there is nothing to develop .. mr. Mr. liar coupon documents in Samara at 70 when will they be?
  10. andrew42
    andrew42 13 November 2017 13: 33 New
    +4
    Another occasion for the bickering of the "bakers" with the "red savior". Without end, without beginning. For my part, I have to offer the following example of figurative thinking: Russian society of the early 20th century in the ring of "world forces" is a sort of large, slightly clumsy boxer, in tattered gloves, shorts for rent for 500 bucks with the stigma "from the Western Allies", underfed by the shopkeeper , healed a "piece of meat" (straight from Jack London's eponymous story). At the same time, the agent-impressionario, crunching buns under champagne, believes that this giant "will win", why don’t waste that! And bravorno "reports" to the highest person who makes the "key bet." This is the same "rotten regime" that is really rotten - the nobility of Peter the Great worked for 300 years, fuel remained toxins. And so, after fussing with a fat, hefty "German", our pretty battered hero gets 2 "presents" from nowhere: 1) a blow to the RIGHT. from the “Februaryists” (why is he so badly fighting, not otherwise a new master is needed), - a knockdown. 2) a blow to the LEFT, this time from the “red non-Russians” (they are using it incorrectly! You need a new Trotskyite master!), - oops! knockout. The end of the ballet. Resuscitation. Can. to organs? - Maybe only the resuscitator Dzhugashvili wants to stir up something, says, "They promised a decent life to a man of labor." Well promised, so what? - To the NEP, to whom the surplus appraisal - to each his own.
  11. Lieutenant Teterin
    Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 14: 30 New
    +4
    Varyag_0711,
    Still, you prefer to argue with reality and repeat the Bolshevik tales. Sorry.
    And the people did not follow the slogans of the Bolsheviks, and this is recognized by the "red historians" themselves.
    [
    More complete data did not in the least shake the conclusions made by V.I. Lenin at the end of 1919, did not fundamentally change the statistical reflection of the correlation of party and class forces that took place in Russia at the end of 1917 — beginning of 1918. An additional survey conducted we, too, did not change the overall picture. 169 Without taking into account the numbers obtained by indirect calculations, we can operate on the following data: in 68 districts (data are partial in 4 districts), 44443 thousand voters voted, including 10649 thousand for Bolsheviks (24%), for the petty-bourgeois parties (including nationalist) - 26 thousand (374%), for the bourgeois-landlord parties (including nationalist) - 59 thousand (7420%). 17

    http://leninism.su/books/4314-vserossijskoe-uchre
    ditelno-sobranie-istoriya-sozyva-i-krusheniya.htm
    l? showall = & start = 13
    Or do you call this book "liberal"?
  12. RUSS
    RUSS 13 November 2017 15: 56 New
    +3
    You can argue until the pulse is lost, but one thing calms down, the leaders of today's Russian supreme authority gave an unambiguous answer on the question of 1917, and in confirmation of this, 2 federal channels continued, as they had said before, “party policies” were recently broadcast by the series in which all these Lenin’s , Trotsky and Stalin, showing topics of who they were - terrorists, troublemakers, rebels, traitors and just bandits!
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 13 November 2017 17: 42 New
      +4
      This is precisely the ambiguity I do not observe. Quite ambiguity, with a deliberate, unsaid ambiguity. That's when in the textbook on national history will be assessed February + October as a joint project to destroy Russian statehood, then it will be unequivocal.
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 13 November 2017 18: 57 New
        +2
        Quote: andrew42
        assessed February + October as a joint project to destroy Russian statehood

        Stupidity.
        There is more faith in this scientist than all the talkers from 1 and other channels.
        “I must say that the February Revolution of 1917 was the victory of the Western liberals of that time, and in just 9 months they led the country to complete collapse. Today, the current liberals, who have been ruining the country for 25 years, are afraid of the return of the Soviet Union. I always remember that General Brusilov said, explaining why he joined the Red Army: “Because Lenin saved Russia.”
        http://www.nationaljournal.ru/articles/2017-11-07
        / 4165 /
        1. andrew42
          andrew42 14 November 2017 11: 30 New
          0
          Did I write something about the Soviet Union? Why confuse the hell with a finger? The 1917 revolution and the post-revolutionary regime are one thing. The Soviet Union, already in 1940, is completely different. I'm not even talking about 1970. it is necessary to look at the essence of things, and not at the red signs. For over 2000 years, Christianity seems to exist, practically on the same dogmas, which does not prevent Christians from cutting each other from time to time, and often justify anti-human deeds. And for the return of the USSR in 1985,
          - I am FOR two arms and two legs. We were wrapped in the wrong place. It is necessary to return to that fork, as they say “back to the Future!”, Because we have no future on the current road, the Russian people are not expecting anything good on this road.
  13. BAI
    BAI 13 November 2017 16: 07 New
    +1
    The war of all against all, without rules, without mercy.

    This is the definition of ANY Civil War.
  14. avva2012
    avva2012 13 November 2017 16: 29 New
    +4
    Lieutenant Teterin,
    Yeah, I know, but the fact that the NTS since the end of the Great Patriotic War have been working under the CIA’s pantry has somehow not been hidden at all. And about ROA, as I understand it, is this a new stream for the rehabilitation of traitors? Then one client already threw a trial ball about Red that he was not quite a traitor. Now you. But say that there are no curators, they say you think. Strange.
    1. Lieutenant Teterin
      Lieutenant Teterin 13 November 2017 18: 42 New
      +6
      Quote: avva2012
      NTS since the end of the Second World War, work under the pantry of the CIA,

      And what did the NTS achieve during this time? Answer: nothing. People employed in this organization spent time aimlessly and meaninglessly. The USSR did not collapse because of their actions. He was ruined members of the CPSU Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Shushkevich and Kravchuk. And I want to ask a question: where were you in those days of 1991? Where were the millionth CPSU, the KGB, the army, the police? What did all the CIA agents buy them? And the chairman of the KGB with his deputies, and the Minister of Defense with the entire apparatus of the Ministry of Defense, and the commander of the Moscow Military District, and the party control committee of the CPSU Central Committee? All sat upright, their mouths wide open and watched as they split up the country. NO ONE MOVED Everyone was waiting for a commanding shout, but no one did anything to save the country (and it was possible to do this, I tell you responsibly). None. And to blame for this, neither the CIA, nor Mossad, nor the NTS, nor the late Vlasov, namely the Soviet system and Soviet society.
      Quote: avva2012
      And about ROA, as I understand it, is this a new stream for the rehabilitation of traitors? Then one client already threw a trial ball about Red that he was not quite a traitor.

      You are a terrific person. I clearly told you: in order to believe Vlasov, you had to be either a fool or a naive person. Where, you are a wonderful person, do you see rehabilitation here? The same with Krasnov. I clearly called him a separatist. He is still in the Civil dirty tricks of the Denikin Volunteer Army.
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 13 November 2017 22: 28 New
        +4
        Quote: Lieutenant Teterin
        I clearly said

        You have clearly said only one thing, superficially denying all the indicated bastards, you are essentially justifying them, they were killing the people who followed the Reds, they were lying to the people, and you are doing the same.
        1. dSK
          dSK 14 November 2017 03: 46 New
          +5
          Hello Vlad! There were red, green, white, orange in Ukraine, what kind of saakashvili were in Georgia - pink? Same standard masonic strategy. "Divide and rule." Lodges are different, but puppeteers are customers alone. They are very smart and cunning, they rub their hands and add gasoline to the gasoline (finance).
          "Orthodox brothers and sisters " - Russians, Belarusians, Ukrainians, Uzbeks, Kazakhs (born in Kazakhstan, met such) and many other nationalities. OrthodoxThose who want to stand on the Last Judgment to the right of Christ. True, justice is one root. And leftist options, leftist revenues, falsehoods are of the same root. The Creator and Creator The Lord God granted man free will.
          The great Russian language was formed on the Gospel, which was transferred to us by the equally apostolic teachers Cyril and Methodius. There were few handwritten books and studied literacy in parish schools. The peasants are “Christians,” and they used to live in communities as early Christians. The word "education" (preserved in the USSR) - a man strives all his life to restore the image and likeness by which the first man Adam was created, flying out of paradise through the efforts of a lying snake tempter. I remember in the USSR the younger section of the kindergarten was called the strange word "nursery" when I began to read the Gospel - the Most Holy Theotokos gave birth to a son in a manger, a feeding trough for cattle. You can give a lot of examples on this topic, the format does not allow. hi
          1. andrew42
            andrew42 14 November 2017 11: 47 New
            0
            As for the "customers" I agree 100%. The monarchies of Europe, as the forms of national states that existed at that time, were faced with a nasty force - ripened, organized, distributed and embedded in all institutions. With the power of using the national bourgeoisie as a disposable, well-funded condom, with the subsequent replacement of the national composition of these narrow-minded bourgeois. Monarchical regimes decomposed by capital are the most favorable situation. WWII and revolutions in Europe (and the overthrow of monarchies is a revolution) is the culmination of the whole plan. For Russia, a second charge was needed — two revolutions one after another.
          2. andrew42
            andrew42 14 November 2017 11: 52 New
            0
            As for the formation of the Russian language from the Gospel - well, God will judge you, as they say. For me, these are "Christian blinkers." The Russian language is the direct descendant of the proto-language of all the whites of people, preserved and evolved in the center of the area of ​​distribution of the race. If prior to the translations of Cyril and Methodius there was no Slavic family of languages ​​(at that time there were essentially only dialects of the same language), then what was there to be translated into? They would serve services like Catholic francs, for example, in someone else's Latin. It was easier to plant Greek :)
      2. avva2012
        avva2012 14 November 2017 08: 14 New
        +1
        Where, you are a wonderful person, do you see rehabilitation here?

        You write, write, the main thing, because so that I do not see this rehabilitation of fascist henchmen here.
        1. Lieutenant Teterin
          Lieutenant Teterin 15 November 2017 10: 22 New
          +3
          You are either a troll or a pretty offended, not very educated person. Learn the story. ROA recruited from Soviet prisoners of war and Cossack separatist and Nazi accomplice (highlighted especially for you, if the first time is not clear to you) Krasnov with its Cossack units are different structures. You see, different. Krasnov still inserted white wheels in Civilian wheels, and in World War II, he generally went over to the side of the Nazis. He betrayed the Russians. The same Denikin, not that he hated Bolshevism, but refused to cooperate with the Nazis, and was happy to receive news about the victories of the Red Army. The very one against which he fought in the Civil. Denikin understood that the external enemy, the Nazis, were worse than the Communists, but the separatist and traitor Krasnov did not. Do you get it now?
    2. long in stock.
      long in stock. 14 November 2017 08: 15 New
      +2
      in general, this person does not understand what he is doing. Krasnov is recognized as a Nazi criminal. FEDERAL LAW
      ON THE COUNTERING OF REHABILITATION OF NAZISM, HEROIZATION OF NAZI CRIMINALS AND THEIR ASSIDENTS. Article 4 paragraph 4 ...
      1. avva2012
        avva2012 14 November 2017 08: 36 New
        +2
        He understands everything. This feeling of complete impunity makes him dizzy. I hope that such self-confidence will play a cruel joke with him and others like him.
  15. avva2012
    avva2012 14 November 2017 03: 18 New
    +1
    Olgovich,
    Well, you sure are a former Komsomol. Speak what you don’t believe. Who blew up and when? Give an example, at least one, when the Communists of 20-30's first ordered the church to be blown up, and then communed? You, use the usual juggling. Take a fact from the past, and the protagonist from the "present". The communists of that time were somewhat different than in the 80's.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 14 November 2017 11: 37 New
      +1
      Quote: avva2012
      Olgovich,
      Well, you sure are a former Komsomol. Speak what you don’t believe. Who blew up and when? Give an example, at least one, when the Communists of 20-30's first ordered the church to be blown up, and then communed? You, use the usual juggling. Take a fact from the past, and the protagonist from the "present". The communists of that time were somewhat different than in the 80's.

      the protagonist from the present, 1920-30-40gg birth fully approved actions from the past. And approves today, until he bakes!
      1. Flying Dutchman
        Flying Dutchman 14 November 2017 17: 46 New
        +3
        Interim government? Constituent Assembly? Since when did they become legal? According to the laws of the Russian Empire, the Ecumenical Assembly was to be assembled from all classes, which would elect the tsar instead of the abdicated Nicholas II. Everything else - and the Republic of the Provisional Government and the Constituent Assembly and the Soviets were illegal. Following the results of the Civil War, it was the Soviets that became legal. It should also be taken into account that election fraud is possible during the “paper” elections, such a falsification is impossible in the Civil War, that is, since it was necessary, the elections cannot be falsified in the Civil War and cannot be falsified. The Whites declared a Civil War (the Bolsheviks did not need a Civil War, since power was in their hands in the form of Soviets everywhere in the field — it had been organized since February 1917) and rushed to “liberate” Moscow and Peter and here the people were not on their side. That is, white has become an anti-people force.
      2. avva2012
        avva2012 15 November 2017 06: 05 New
        0
        What kind of “face” is Olgovich, “1920-30-40 of birth”? Express yourself more clearly, otherwise I get the impression that you are already hot.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 15 November 2017 12: 04 New
          0
          Quote: avva2012
          What kind of “face” is Olgovich, “1920-30-40 of birth”? Express yourself more clearly, otherwise I get the impression that you are already hot.

          Brom should be drunk in this case, Bender recommended. lol What is incomprehensible to you? A person born in the 1920s, or 30s, 40s. Again not Copenhagen? Well, sorry. request
  16. avva2012
    avva2012 15 November 2017 05: 32 New
    +1
    Olgovich,
    Somehow without Soviet doctors in other countries they survived? and survive, and not bad!

    You, this, about survive in Africa and Afghanistan, where our doctors have created a health system, tell us. True, now. everything returned to square one. The most humane capitalist system, such nonsense does not bother in Afghanistan itself, heroin production roofs.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 15 November 2017 12: 06 New
      0
      Quote: avva2012
      Olgovich,
      Somehow without Soviet doctors in other countries they survived? and survive, and not bad!

      You, this, about survive in Africa and Afghanistan, where our doctors have created a health system, tell us. True, now. everything returned to square one. The most humane capitalist system, such nonsense does not bother in Afghanistan itself, heroin production roofs.

      You would create HOME better. And America and Europe, without you understand and live, much longer. And, what is strange, without the Bolsheviks belay
  17. Awaz
    Awaz 23 November 2017 20: 29 New
    0
    all carefully probably read the text of the article. And therefore, we should pay attention to the description of the actions of the Junkers. for some reason, everyone believes that the cadets are minor cadets of military schools, although in reality, during the riots of 17 years, all these kids fled to their homes and only experienced front-line soldiers who were trained as non-commissioned officers remained in the schools. By the way, they were also called junkers, but they were not youngsters. Photos were taken just from Moscow after and before those events where these cadets are captured. Basically, these are quite healthy men already. These junkers were a serious force and did not succumb to revolutionary propaganda, so their white movement actively used it.
  18. Karen
    Karen 23 November 2017 21: 16 New
    0
    No one will tell you what was the name of the book about Artuzov?
    From there I remembered only that one doctor from the white movement betrayed the conspiracy at the Artillery School ...