Military Review

Why lost the White Project

188
Why lost the White Project

Why did you lose the “White” project? The Russian code, the matrix expressed in the Russian civilization project, was in ever-growing contradiction with the projects of the Russian “elite” - the Romanovs and Westerners, who committed the February-March coup, and then with the support of the West created the White Project. The contradiction between the Russian matrix and the projects of Westerners and led to the 1917 disaster of the year, the new Troubles and the most brutal civil war. White project did not meet the aspirations of the masses.


The White Project is a liberal-bourgeois, pro-Western project. He was promoted by masons, secret hierarchically constructed lodges, aiming at the creation of a "united humanity" led by a world government. Accordingly, Russian lodges were secondary and conceptually ideologically dependent on Western senior "partners." At the same time, the Freemasons had a certain support of Jewry, which provided support from the so-called. "Financial international" ("golden elite", "owners of money"). In addition, the pro-Western, Masonic project of transforming Russia, especially at the first stage, enjoyed the support of Western "partners" in the Entente - official governments, institutions and organizations of the United States, Britain and France.

February revolutionaries who overthrew Tsar Nicholas II, who destroyed the Russian autocracy and the imperial army, were the social basis of this project. It was a large part of the then top of Russia, the degenerated elite of the Russian Empire - a significant part of the Romanov dynasty, speaking against Nicholas II, church hierarchs, generals, aristocracy, nobles, liberal intelligentsia (the overwhelming part of the then Russian intelligentsia), capitalists — bankers, industrialists, proprietors— bourgeois, officials, members of almost all public and political parties and movements (except for extremely weakened right-wing monarchists, who by the year 1917 had lost almost all previous positions in society).

Once and for all it is necessary to reject the myth that the Bolsheviks overthrew the king. The autocracy was crushed not by commissars and not Red Guards, but by freemasons of higher degrees of initiation, generals, dignitaries and Duma leaders. The liberal-bourgeois part of society tried to finally approve the matrix of Western society in Russia. The Russian autocracy, in their opinion, prevented them from being archaic, holding back the movement of Russia along the western path. They had power, wealth, capital, property, a huge influence through the liberal press (and then almost all of it was liberal), through parties and movements. But there was no real power, that is, control. Genuine power could only be obtained by destroying autocracy. In addition, the Russian Westernizers, brought up on European models, always have a distorted view of the West and Russia. Westerners, Mason liked to live in Europe - "sweet and civilized." For them, Russia has always been a “prison of nations”, a “dense, backward country”, with “wild and unenlightened people”, “always drunk”, incomprehensible to them muzhiks.

So they wanted to make France, Holland or England from Russia. They did not understand that Russia-Russia is a separate, unique civilization, not the West, and not the East. Our Westerners wanted “market”, “democracy” (in fact, the power of the rich through the media and parties), “freedom”. There were certain mercantile considerations - the royal family had to share property, the capitalists and bourgeois did not want any restrictions on the predatory mastering of Russian wealth, in this they did not differ from their Western counterparts.

Therefore, you should always remember that The White movement is a pro-Western liberal-democratic, bourgeois movement. In the Soviet Union, they made a mistake when in the films about the Civil War they created an erroneous image of white officers and men. Everywhere they turned out to be monarchists and during holidays in restaurants and taverns they shouted the hymn "God Save the Tsar!" This is a myth, Soviet and liberal. All the white armies and governments shunned monarchism, adhered to liberal-democratic positions. Moreover, the White Guard counterintelligence crushed marginal underground monarchist movements during the war with the Reds. Monarchism had no place in the ranks of the White Army, except for the personal convictions of individual officers. Not surprisingly, as it turned out later, most of the officers who held monarchical views and patriots of United Great Russia ended up in the ranks of the Red Army. And they were not mistaken; as a result, the Stalinist empire would restore the Russian empire almost to its former borders and even more - taking into account the states of “people's socialism” and the socialist bloc, which were included in the sphere of influence of Russia-USSR.

Why did the Westerners, the masons make a revolution, when the German bloc was already falling from exhaustion? After all, Russia could become the winner of Germany, along with other Entente powers. Such was the installation from the owners of the West - Russia, according to their plans, was to collapse and also become prey, like the dead German Empire. Russian Westerners-masons who were deceived in their hopes (future revolutionaries of the Februaryists) wanted to overthrow the tsar, come to power, and direct Russia along the Western path of development on the wave of victory, focusing on England, France and the USA. In addition, there was a danger that at the last moment the tsarist regime would nevertheless dodge and go to a separate peace from Germany (therefore they killed Rasputin, who with the help of the queen insisted on this idea), which could prolong the rule of the Romanovs for some time. As a result, Russia's pro-Western elite — industrial-financial, military, administrative, political — conspired and overthrew the tsar, destroying autocracy and empire.

However, instead of a triumphant victory, the degenerated “elite” caused a chain reaction and a catastrophe to the “old Russia” in which it itself flourished. Not only autocracy, the Russian Empire, the house of the Romanovs, but the whole old project and statehood collapsed. The Westernizers themselves launched the process of the Russian Troubles - merciless and all-destroying.

In this way, The white project was based on the conviction that after the overthrow of autocracy (or socialism, in 1991-1993), life can be arranged according to Western models. The project ideologists were masons who believed that Russia could be integrated into Western (European) civilization. Russia has already partially become the financial and economic periphery of the West under the Romanovs, European culture shaped the consciousness of the elite of the Russian Empire, which spoke German, French and English. The Russian intelligentsia was brought up on the western cultural matrix. Now, the Westerners wanted to complete the process of Westernization of the Russian civilization, begun under the Romanovs. If during the rule of the Romanovs, the social elite was mostly zapadnizirovatsya, and the people for the most part retained the Russian matrix (the dream of social justice, the Russian language, Russian fairy tales, epic songs, life, etc.), now in Russia they were going to create a new society by the example of Western democracies. Its hallmarks were parliamentary-type democracy; market, fully capitalistic economy, without the archaic elements that persist in Russia; independent judiciary; political pluralism, multi-party system; the secular nature of society, without the domination of one of the religions and state support of the church; various freedoms, etc.

But this is the outside. Under such a “democracy”, society was free from the outside, but, in fact, the parliamentary republic relied on a strict hierarchy of secret power in the order, masonic and paramason structures and closed clubs. Such a system still rules the West. The children of representatives of the financial, economic, political and military elite study in special educational institutions, enter into the local closed clubs (like "Skull and Bones" - the oldest secret society of students at Yale University in the USA). There they make the necessary contacts and acquaintances. There is a certain selection. Natives of such clubs and societies occupied and occupy the most important posts in politics, media, financial, economic, military, scientific and educational spheres in Western countries. Such a system is controlled by the executive, legislative and judicial branches. Individuals who dare to speak out against the system are being boycotted, isolated, ridiculed, or even physically destroyed if they do not understand the “signals” and are dangerous.


The market (capitalist) economy becomes the basis and breeding ground for the monopolistic structures of financial and industrial capital (modern TNCs and TNBs), which concentrates the main flows and sources of profit. The main wealth of the country belongs to a limited circle of families. Not surprisingly, at present, several hundred clan families control more than half of the wealth of the planet. Pluralism in ideology allows you to manipulate public opinion. Most and most mass media belong to the oligarchy, which is another contour of control over society.

It is worth noting that the Western project has shown its strength and effectiveness in the conditions of Western Europe and the USA. The masters of the West were the first to make a qualitative breakthrough in technology, and subjugated almost the entire planet to their power, robbed all of humanity. Colossal wealth was removed from the periphery of Western Europe, America, Africa, Asia, and island territories. They created an extremely effective parasitic model of plunder and exploitation of the most part of human civilization. This ultimately made it possible to create the appearance of prosperity in the core capitalist countries (metropolis), the consumer society and the “general welfare”, temporarily suppressing social discontent in Western countries, channeling it into consumption and entertainment. This channeled the attention and energy of the people, but had a disastrous effect on the future of the white race and practically all the peoples of Western Europe (extinction, moral, mental and physical degradation, involution). True, the owners of the West do not care about the future of the white race and the major nations of Europe, they have already implemented the project of the "gray race" - the ideal slave-consumer, who has no racial, linguistic, national, cultural roots. Such a slave is extremely easy to manipulate, sculpt anything from it.

The problem was that as it shows история, the western project of a global slave civilization, with the domination of the few "chosen" over the masses of "subhuman - two-legged tools", lowered into an animal state, is unacceptable for the Russian matrix, the program code of the Russian super-ethnos. The destruction of social justice and ethics of conscience (participation in the highest news, the world of truth and justice) leads to the self-destruction of the Russian people, society and the state. Thus, the westernization of the elite of the Russian Empire ultimately led to the 1917 disaster of the year. The Western path of development unambiguously leads to the Russian Distemper — the answer of the Russian people to the unrighteousness of the “elite” and the violation of social justice.

Therefore, representatives of the white, liberal-democratic project could not create an attractive image of the future for the majority of the people in 1917-1918. The image of “sweet” Holland or France, “enlightened”, prosperous and rich, was acceptable to the majority of a significant part of the liberal intelligentsia, the bourgeoisie and the nobility. But he had no chance of success in the common people. We see a similar situation in Russia at the end of the XX - XXI centuries. Goals like “catch up with Portugal” in terms of the level of prosperity, become “an energy superpower” (in essence, “the economy of the pipe”), are unacceptable for Russians. Ordinary people very quickly notice, despite the qualitative strengthening of the power of propaganda, that there are “chosen” and “working animals”. That someone can afford yachts and airplanes, diamonds and estates, real estate abroad, and for others “no money”. That “golden kids” can drive on super cars, break the rules and even kill ordinary people, they are “otmazhut”, and an ordinary person will be planted for a long time if he cuts down a dried up tree in order to heat the stove in winter.

Thus, it is precisely the path of integration of Russia with the West, the loss of its national identity to a large extent and predetermined the tragic divergence of civilization and national (state) projects in the Russian empire and, ultimately, the collapse and destruction of the Romanovs project, the “old Russia” - a catastrophe 1917 of the year. Russia could not become part of the West - only as a colony (and then in parts, it is easier to digest), with the complete extinction and death of the Russian super-ethnos, language and culture. The proposed future could not come (the unity of Russia and the West), since the path to it turned into a catastrophe and the death of Russian civilization and the people. Liberals and Westerners of all stripes in Russia could not understand this and cannot understand it. We are seeing a similar situation lately.

The white, liberal-democratic (pro-Western, Masonic) project had no chances in Russia at all. This project could not win, as Russia, following the path of complete Westernization, inevitably had to disintegrate and self-destruct. What happened in 1917-1920. Only the red (Soviet) project saved Russia, all civilization and the people.


Understand this and the deepest minds in the West. Thus, the British historian and philosopher Arnold Toynbee (1889 of the Year - 1975) noted: “Although the pro-Western policy was carried out for more than two centuries, it led Russia to Peter the Great to a complete collapse. One explanation for this development is that the process of Westernization did not affect all aspects of the life of Russia and was strictly limited to certain limits. Actually, the West has not influenced the life and culture of Russia ... Powerful traditional cultural layers resisted the processes of westernization (Russian matrix. - Author). Disaster 1914-18 made obvious and universally recognized industrial and social backwardness of Russia, contributed to the coming to power of the Bolsheviks, defining to some extent and their program ... The radical forms of political opposition developed in the West penetrated Russian life so deeply that the struggle for political freedom in Russia could well be considered Western-style movement, and the revolution was anti-Western in the sense that the West was in a certain sense identified with capitalism ”(A. Toynbee. Comprehension of history).

Toynbee clearly determined that the Russian code, the matrix expressed in the Russian civilization project, was in ever-growing contradiction with the projects of the Russian “elite” - the Romanovs and Westerners who committed the February-March coup, and then with the support of the West created the White Project. The contradiction between the Russian matrix and the projects of Westerners and led to the 1917 disaster of the year, the new Troubles and the most brutal civil war. The white project did not meet the aspirations of the masses who wanted social justice, the destruction of social parasitism. The white project led to the death of the Russian civilization and the people, to the disintegration and subordination of the remnants of Russia to the West. Therefore, the people supported the Bolsheviks, the Russian Communists, with their idea of ​​social justice, conciliarism and the destruction of social parasites, with the replacement of the formal religion with the ethics of conscience.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Smoot 1917 of the year

100 anniversary of the February Revolution
What ruined Tsarist Russia?
Nicholas II had no chance of retaining power.?
How Nicholas II abdicated the throne
"Russia plunged into the swamp of a dirty and bloody revolution"
The war for absolute power on the planet
Russian intelligentsia against the "kingdom of darkness"
The myth of the "Jewish Revolution" in Russia
How the Februaryists destroyed the army
How Kerensky became the destroyer of Russia and the Russian army
How the feudalists unleashed a civil war in Russia
How the Februaryists officially "buried" the Russian Empire
October saved Russia
The Bolsheviks began to implement a new development project, saving not only Russia, but the whole of humanity
Why did the Bolsheviks defeat
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  1. A.V.S.
    A.V.S. 10 November 2017 15: 06 New
    16
    The “White Project” is completely ordinary patriotism, “Great, Unified and Indivisible Russia.” The white movement is the resistance of normal people - patriots, liberals, monarchists, conservatives - against crazy extremists, criminals, spies and adventurers. Russia's trouble is that there were few normal people, and there were too many madmen and fools.
    Specifically: it was impossible to be more vicious, deceitful and cruel than the Communists. Baron Ungern tried to act like the Bolsheviks - as a result, he was considered an insane sadist by all other participants in the White Struggle.
    1. 210ox
      210ox 10 November 2017 15: 08 New
      +5
      What is the “White Project?” Then write something?
      1. Romey
        Romey 10 November 2017 15: 21 New
        +8
        I can continue ... There was no "white project". In addition to the slogan of "one and indivisible", outwardly beautiful. but in every possible way divorced from post-revolutionary reality, the white side could not offer a single real alternative. The only figure who seriously approached this goal was only the chieftain of the VVD P.N. Krasnov, who was trying to build a new state structure of Russia on the territory of the Donskoy Army region as opposed to the Bolshevik project, but due to circumstances he didn’t succeed, unlike the Bolsheviks, who showed a will to win and were able to implement to some extent their proposed . The rest was really not serious, including the most diverse "governments" ...
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 10 November 2017 15: 58 New
          12
          The only figure who seriously approached this goal was only the chieftain of the VVD P.N. Krasnov, who was trying to build the new state structure of Russia in the territory of the Don Don

          Yes, he is a famous separatist and traitor. It was cleverly invented that out of all this Caudles, he also stands out.
          1. Romey
            Romey 10 November 2017 16: 40 New
            +5
            Exactly. The grin of history: not one of the white generals possessed the qualities necessary for a politician, all the more intending to compete with such political bison as V.I. Lenin or L.D. Bronstein (Trotsky). But P.N. Krasnova, these qualities were: common sense, lack of principle, cynicism and illegibility in the media.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 10 November 2017 16: 53 New
              10
              But P.N. Krasnova, these qualities were: common sense, lack of principle, cynicism and illegibility in the media.

              I would remove the “common sense” from the above, nevertheless. Betrayal is not the best choice for a person with common sense. Yet the same Kornilov or Denikin, somehow against his background look cleaner.
              1. Romey
                Romey 10 November 2017 17: 38 New
                +7
                Colleague! We are talking about Krasnov in 1918, not 1941. These are completely different people. To speak of Krasnov as a traitor during the Civil War, to put it mildly, is premature. Then the signing of the Brest peace will have to be explained by betrayal too. Cooperation with the Germans was explained precisely by common sense: the Cossacks can not physically fight for lack of resources, the Allies are far away, and what kind of allies it most likely reached Krasnov between February 17 and March 18. As for the purity of any figure of this period, this is also a very controversial issue, since the psychology of a participant in a civil war is very different from our psychology of peacetime. There are other concepts about good and evil, and very hypertrophic ones. I'm just trying to move away from any ideological bias on this particular issue.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 10 November 2017 17: 46 New
                  12
                  I agree with you that Krasnov was different in 1941 from himself in 1918. By age. You know, life may not have taught me much, but one thing, I learned ironically that if a person is by nature a skin, then he will remain a skin under any circumstances. Everything else is an excuse, believe me.
                  1. Romey
                    Romey 10 November 2017 18: 04 New
                    +1
                    It is possible, but Krasnov’s political and philosophical views repeatedly drifted in different directions depending on the situation. But after reading a lot of scientific literature, memoirs of participants, works of art of various kinds on the events in the Don in 1917-1922, I came to this conclusion, although I am not a classic anti-Soviet to self-forgetfulness. Yes, it can be unpleasant, but nonetheless it is. Although, of course, it may also be somewhat biased: my great-great-grandfather, a subunion was a member of the Don Rescue circle in 1918.
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 10 November 2017 18: 14 New
                      +8
                      Clear. There will be bias in this matter and there is no getting anywhere from it. Blood is not water. Family legends are the most durable and have a powerful effect on generations, thereby on the one hand cementing the clan, making it a family, and on the other hand, these legends, like a railway track, have just stood up and you won’t go anywhere. So, I understand your attitude to the topic under discussion, but Krasnov is really a character .....
                  2. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 10 November 2017 19: 03 New
                    +4
                    Are you talking about the skin that has become skin?
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 10 November 2017 19: 06 New
                      +2
                      Skin was at first, and only then he became.
                      1. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 10 November 2017 19: 09 New
                        +2
                        Yes, he was a skin and was by name and content .. and change the name did not work out much .. you won’t leave fate ...
                2. Proxima
                  Proxima 10 November 2017 18: 42 New
                  +4
                  Quote: romey
                  Colleague! We are talking about Krasnov in 1918, not 1941. These are completely different people.

                  Wow! These are different people! belay
                  As in a bearded joke: "... before you is the skull of Peter the Great at 13 years old, the skull of Peter the Great at 24 years old ..." wassat
                3. Hantengri
                  Hantengri 10 November 2017 21: 15 New
                  +2
                  Quote: romey
                  Colleague! We are talking about Krasnov in 1918, not 1941. These are completely different people.

                  So, in addition to the unbridled hatred of the “boorish boor” (c), Krasnov also had a split personality ?! belay It’s sad. But it happens worse: https: //www.litmir.me/br/? B = 14259 laughing
        2. avt
          avt 10 November 2017 16: 29 New
          +5
          Quote: romey
          but due to circumstances he didn’t succeed

          bully And what? Weakly this “circumstance” to name ?, “Cossack” disappeared like smoke, exactly along with the Hetman Skoropadsky, when the Germans left with their Reichswehr, whose clients were both. Kstat Krasnov from Ukraine received weapons with the blessing of the Germans.
          1. Romey
            Romey 10 November 2017 17: 04 New
            +4
            Not so simple. This is rather one of the circumstances. Firstly, in 1918, there was no talk of any "Cossack". She appeared a little later in the bowels of the Kuban regional council under the guise of a federation of the Don, Kuban and Terek, but was quickly covered by volunteers. The essence of Krasnov’s actions was: 1. The State can only overcome the State. 2. Only a regular army can defeat a regular army. 3. need social support, and he tried to win over at least part of the non-resident population. In matters of strategy, he was also more realistic than the others, insisting on the capture of Tsaritsyn and connection with Kolchak and the white whales instead of the stupid trampling in the Kuban and any partisans. As for the Germans, then again, in this regard, he is more similar to the Bolsheviks than to the hetman. who was an outright puppet, and neither Krasnov, let alone the Bolsheviks were such, and were playing their very cunning game. One needed a respite, and the other a weapon, and it was not a secret for both opponents that Germany would soon be blown away ... These are such bizarre squiggles betrayed by the civil war in Russia. It’s just amazing.
            1. captain
              captain 10 November 2017 17: 54 New
              +7
              Maybe I'm wrong, but Russia was a peasant country at 80%. Lenin, or rather the Socialist-Revolutionaries were the first, offered to give the land to the peasants for free. For a peasant country, that was all. And White could not offer such a slogan. The peasants supported the Bolsheviks (they did not know that then they would take away this land after the victory).
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 11 November 2017 02: 09 New
                +2
                Well, if you are wrong, then in the company of A.I. Denikin: "The White Movement ruined the land issue."
              2. Olgovich
                Olgovich 11 November 2017 07: 31 New
                +3
                Quote: captain
                Maybe I'm wrong, but Russia was a peasant country at 80%. Lenin, or rather the Socialist-Revolutionaries were the first, offered to give the land to the peasants for free. For a peasant country, that was all. And White could not offer such a slogan. The peasants supported the Bolsheviks (they did not know that then they would take away this land after the victory).

                ALL whites offered REALITY - the solution of all issues on the basis of the will of the people through its deputies, elected to Uchr. Collection. That in Russia there was agreement and there were no civil conflicts. Those. democracy-the will of the majority, taking into account the views of the minority.
                The Bolsheviks betrayed a cynical sweet, divorced from reality FALSE.
                1. long in stock.
                  long in stock. 11 November 2017 08: 20 New
                  +6
                  olgovich time again? how about coupons in Samara at 70? have you already gone beyond the mind for a long time .. we are observing the establishment .. and when do you remember that democracy is when a citizen has at least 3 slaves ... something tells me that you see yourself as such a citizen ..
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 11 November 2017 10: 03 New
                    +1
                    Quote: long in stock.
                    olgovich time again? how about coupons in Samara at 70? have you already gone beyond the mind for a long time .. we are observing the establishment .. and when do you remember that democracy is when a citizen has at least 3 slaves ... something tells me that you see yourself as such a citizen ..

                    Do not rattle, but with DOCUMENTS disprove the "lie": now is not the year 1917-1991, the agitation is not interesting to anyone!

                    your mind has gone beyond reason for a long time

                    Comrade long in! I will not answer you, like Khan and the curiosity. Behave yourself properly.
                    1. long in stock.
                      long in stock. 11 November 2017 22: 54 New
                      +2
                      then you answered me with documents about coupons .. they behave decently with people, and with cheaters only a shandal on the head and in the puddle .... but for you this is normal ..
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 12 November 2017 09: 26 New
                        0
                        Quote: long in stock.
                        then you answered me with documents about coupons ..behave decently with peopleand with cheaters only a shandal on the head and in a puddle .... but for you this is normal ..

                        Tov long in!
                        From now on, I don’t read and don’t answer you. hi
            2. avt
              avt 10 November 2017 18: 25 New
              +5
              ]
              Quote: romey
              The essence of Krasnov’s actions was:

              He saddled the site of Kaledin and clearly dipped to whom in the lackeys to go.
              Quote: romey
              As for the Germans, then again, in this regard, he is more similar to the Bolsheviks than to the hetman. who was an outright puppet, and neither Krasnov, let alone the Bolsheviks were such, and were playing their very cunning game.
              bully Well, yes, nowhere ... shit ,, Cossacks "does not smell. bully Before washing off Hitler’s lackey, and Krasnov faithfully served any German regime and even tried to raise the Cossack corps in SS with Hitler’s personal oath in 1943, it seems, the truth was, the free Cossacks, the descendants of the stray Goths in the Don steppes, are “ANNONATIONAL formation at the headquarters of the tank corps SS. There is no such “tricky game” and especially IDEOLOGY, as the Bolsheviks had with Hitler lackey! From a word altogether. Even Makhno with his anarchism, Selyansky was head and shoulders higher than Krasnov. The only thing that differed from Skoropadsky was that the Germans did not crown him directly in the circus, like that in Kiev.
              1. Romey
                Romey 10 November 2017 19: 00 New
                +1
                I wonder if Krasnov knew in 1918. that he lackey corporal of the Kaiser army? I doubt it. Maybe a Kaiser? It is also unlikely, for, I repeat, the near end of Germany was not a secret for anyone. Did Krasnov know in 1918 that the Cossacks were descendants ready? I also doubt it. Don Autonomy? But in this, too, at that time there was no heresy. Look at the abundance of all sorts of Soviet republics and White Guard governments. Yes, there wasn’t and couldn’t have any ideology, for the simple reason that, being a career officer in the Russian army, he adhered to the apolitism characteristic of all then armies. This was accepted everywhere: either you are a soldier and you have no other ideology other than the Oath, or quit and do whatever you want outside the army. And as for the tricky game, I have a completely different opinion, based on an attempt at a sound analysis of the situation, rather than personal ideological addictions. Not being a supporter of P.N. Krasnova just pay attention to the episodes of the Civil War. For this, let me take my leave because I refuse to participate in the pointless next Internet slaughter about the civil war and to contribute to the split between the right and left patriots. hi
                1. avt
                  avt 10 November 2017 19: 57 New
                  +4
                  Quote: romey
                  I wonder if Krasnov knew in 1918. that he lackey corporal of the Kaiser army? I doubt it.

                  Do not hesitate, but carefully read
                  Quote: avt
                  and Krasnov faithfully served any German regime

                  Quote: romey
                  It is also unlikely, for, I repeat, the near end of Germany was not a secret for anyone.

                  bully Knowing the result over the years, issuing ,, analysis "is easy. bully
                  Quote: romey
                  Yes, there wasn’t and couldn’t have ideology in its purest form,

                  bully In the Civil War, only two categories of actors did not have it, namely: First, specific puppets, the most striking example of which was ... hetman Skoropadsky, who worked on the Austro-German project, Ukraine; Second, banal bandits referred to in those green times, to which the same Makhno had nothing to do. All the rest, absolutely EVERYTHING tried in one way or another to completely bring their ideology to their own kingdoms, including banal nationalism.
        3. Olgovich
          Olgovich 11 November 2017 07: 18 New
          +2
          Quote: romey
          There was no “white project”. In addition to the slogan of "one and indivisible", outwardly beautiful. but in every possible way divorced from post-revolutionary reality, the white side could not offer a single real alternative

          The project was not only there, but WINNING: see the flag with the double-headed eagle of Russia (and this is the flag of white Russia) over the Kremlin.
          And the main slogan of the White movement, if not in the know:all power to the people-through the Constituent Assembly.
          Krasnov is one of the most Unsuccessful white figures, unlike Denikin and Kolchak.
          Quote: romey
          Bolsheviks who showed a will to victory and were able to one degree or another to realize their proposed

          They could not realize any of what they proposed: neither peace, nor land, nor hunger, nor factories to workers.
          1. Romey
            Romey 11 November 2017 10: 32 New
            +1
            Strongly disagree. With these slogans and in the absence of any intelligible political program, it was impossible to defeat the White Movement, except for non-commitment. Moreover, A.I. Denikin, with his adventurous breakthrough to Moscow, buried the White movement purely militarily. The social base also did not allow this to be done and if the Bolsheviks did not pursue an initially hostile policy towards the Cossacks by dragging them to their side, and this was quite possible, the White movement would have been defeated much earlier.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 12 November 2017 09: 22 New
              0
              Quote: romey
              Strongly disagree. With these slogans and in the absence of any intelligible political program, it was impossible to defeat the White Movement, except for non-commitment.

              Your right.
              the whites were HONEST with the people, not promising milk rivers, but a difficult but peaceful path. You think this is bad. I have nothing to say to that request
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 12 November 2017 09: 25 New
                +3
                Quote: Olgovich
                the whites were HONEST with the people, not promising milk rivers,

                Doctor of Historical Sciences Heinrich Joffe in the journal "Science and Life" No. 12 for 2004 - and this journal has managed to be noted for its ardent anti-Sovietism in recent years - writes in an article about Denikin: "There was a real revanchist sabbat on the territories liberated from red territories. Old masters returned, arbitrariness, robberies, terrible Jewish pogroms reigned ... ".

                About the atrocities of the troops of Kolchak are legends. The number of people killed and tortured in Kolchak dungeons did not give in to counting. Only in Yekaterinburg province, about 25 thousands of people were shot.
                “In Eastern Siberia, horrible murders were committed, but they were not committed by the Bolsheviks, as I usually thought I would not be mistaken if I say,” the American general William Sydney Grevs later admitted as an eyewitness to those events, “that for every person killed by the Bolsheviks, there were 100 people, killed by anti-Bolshevik elements. "
                HONESTLY RECOGNIZED
                The “ideology” of the whites in this question was clearly expressed by General Kornilov:
                “We went to power to hang, but we had to hang to come to power”
                ...
                http://telegrafua.com/social/12700
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 12 November 2017 10: 17 New
                  +2
                  My great-grandfather (lived 109 years) personally compared the Kolchakites and the Reds .... in the Reds, it struck me that the barefoot went on attack in the winter and were ready to tear the teeth of Kolchak’s, and the Kolchak’s were so old that they could hang up the old ladies .... - the Reds went to storm the village, otherwise he was already in the loop ...
          2. Alexander Greene
            Alexander Greene 11 November 2017 19: 52 New
            +6
            Quote: Olgovich
            The project was not only there, but WINNING: see the flag with the double-headed eagle of Russia (and this is the flag of white Russia) over the Kremlin.

            The White Project won temporarily. The working people have already understood that the "white project" of 1991, like the "white project" of 1917, is only for "white" people, and not for working people, so the victory of socialism is a matter of time
            1. badens1111
              badens1111 11 November 2017 19: 53 New
              +5
              Quote: Alexander Green
              The white project won temporarily.

              Colleague, this is no longer the White Project .. it is an openly pro-Western, openly treacherous project.
      2. A.V.S.
        A.V.S. 10 November 2017 15: 24 New
        +6
        The Russian “white” patriots advocated completely ordinary things: the Fatherland, freedom, civil rights, private property, entrepreneurship and free trade. But their opponents, the “red” and other socialists ... it’s as if Islamic came to power in eReF Caliphate, along with homeless people, bandits, Tajik migrant workers and Ukrainian mercenaries. Interestingly, would the current supporters of the Soviet system like the power of Khalifa al-Baghdadi?
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 10 November 2017 15: 30 New
          17
          Russian patriots - "white" - advocated completely ordinary things

          I agree, completely “ordinary things”: a) a scanty number of gentlemen at the top of power should forever parasitize those whom they called cattle, servants, mob, boors;
          b) private property, inviolable; c) the life of those who are not members of the "elite" is not worth considering as value, and therefore these lives can be paid in various predatory wars so that the descendants of the "white bone" can continue to parasitize. This is so brief.
          1. A.V.S.
            A.V.S. 10 November 2017 15: 49 New
            +9
            Quote: avva2012
            the scanty number of gentlemen on top of power must forever parasitize

            Do you mean the Politburo and the Central Committee of the CPSU ?! I agree, they parasitized the multimillion-dollar mass of Soviet citizens, forcing them to participate in various predatory wars in Angola, Somalia, Nicaragua, Syria, Afghanistan, and even paying hundreds of billions of dollars the happy life of Arabs, Cubans and other blacks for "building socialism."
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 10 November 2017 15: 53 New
              +7
              We are now talking about the "white project", so your comment is past the checkout.
            2. Proxima
              Proxima 10 November 2017 16: 10 New
              11
              Quote: A.W.S.
              Quote: avva2012
              the scanty number of gentlemen on top of power must forever parasitize

              Do you mean the Politburo and the Central Committee of the CPSU ?! I agree, they were parasitic on the multimillion-dollar mass of Soviet citizens

              The most important "parasite" was Stalin. He was so "parasite" that IT EVEN WAS NOTHING TO BURN IN ANYTHING !!! belay
              As for the Politburo and the Central Committee of the CPSU (b), their "wealth" taken together did not reach the thousandth share of the income of the current average oligarch. fellow
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 10 November 2017 16: 20 New
                +9
                You decide what kind of anarchy I am? belay I.V. Stalin and the Politburo at the time, this is just an example of the fact that people standing at the top of power can be people, not parasites. In contrast to the whole of world history, They proved it.
              2. looker-on
                looker-on 10 November 2017 16: 41 New
                +3
                But why did Stalin keep something? He owned the largest country. What is more? laughing Yes, you can’t take much with you to the grave.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 10 November 2017 16: 46 New
                  +6
                  The whole problem is that Akromya I.V. Stalin, the communist, no one thought of this before. They usually push it into their own gut and that's it. Nicholas that did not "own a big country"? But no, "private property, not touched."
                2. Proxima
                  Proxima 10 November 2017 18: 12 New
                  +6
                  Quote: looker-on
                  But why did Stalin keep something? He owned the largest country. What is more? laughing Yes, you can’t take much with you to the grave.

                  Well then, he “owned” the army, but for some reason he didn’t otmazat his children from the army (both died). Your logic is strange.
                  1. creak
                    creak 10 November 2017 20: 13 New
                    0
                    [quote = Proxima] Well then, he also “owned” the army, but for some reason he didn’t stop his children from the army (both died). Your logic is strange. [/ Quote
                    Yes. both sons died, only Jacob died as a real officer in captivity. And Vasily, after the war, also died - or rather died, because he was drunk on an elementary basis
                    - Do you catch the difference or will we create another myth?
                    Then, to complete the picture, add to this myth the daughter Svetlana, who left her children and fled to the United States and also "died there ...
                    1. avt
                      avt 10 November 2017 20: 47 New
                      +3
                      Quote: ranger
                      And Vasily, after the war, also died - or rather died, because he was drunk on an elementary basis

                      In general, Vasya Khrushchev and his accomplices did not even roll up to the camp - the PRISON and not just, but to the Vladimir Central! In which the same Sudoplatov had completely served.
                      1. creak
                        creak 10 November 2017 20: 56 New
                        0
                        quote avt] Vasya actually Khrushchev and his accomplices didn’t even roll up to the camp - the PRISON is not easy, but to Vladimir Central! In which the same Sudoplatov served his full sentence. [/ quote]
                        And Sudoplatov to Vasya sideways, that Vasily is the same hero? And Vasily began to plague not because of Khrushchev, but also with his living father - do not confuse the cause with the investigation.
            3. long in stock.
              long in stock. 10 November 2017 19: 38 New
              +9
              What are you? were you forced to fight in salvador or in afghanistan? then you’ll cut off the sturgeon .. imagine the bloody communists asked if you wanted to go to Afghanistan .. not only that, they submitted a lot of reports with a request to send them, but because people had something that you and you don’t have like .. they had patriotism .. and your patriotism is to serve those who give money .. for good reason you have an idol ...
          2. looker-on
            looker-on 10 November 2017 16: 38 New
            +3
            And what has changed during the USSR? Everybody went on seagulls on the Volga? Everybody had their own summer cottages? Didn’t everyone have a rest trip and more and more on the overseas islands? They took everything that was possible and gave out work and apartments in which it’s a bit crowded (kitchens in a couple of squares were especially impressive since childhood)
            1. long in stock.
              long in stock. 10 November 2017 19: 43 New
              10
              you were always fed up with the ussr. you went to kindergarten and school — for free. but you didn’t plow like you did under the tsar starting from 8-10 .. and in the village even earlier .. you had housing. you were protected. you are free I went to children's camps, and if there was a disease you went to a sanatorium for treatment ... and all this is free ... no one promised you that all your Wishlist would be satisfied ... and before you blame the Khrushchevs I strongly advise you to think about how they appeared and the most important thing for what .. the head needs to be thought of as his own and not by Google .. and most importantly, this housing could just be earned by working at the enterprise. I advise you to compare it with a mortgage .... that's where the wordless turns out. I took a mortgage, fell into slavery. .
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 11 November 2017 02: 18 New
                +1
                Do you have a valid mortgage loan that you talk so colorful about his horrors?
                1. long in stock.
                  long in stock. 11 November 2017 08: 22 New
                  +3
                  Thank God I have my hands and my head. I just earned an apartment for myself. But many couldn’t do it, but I don’t live in a vacuum and communicate with people ..
            2. Alexander Greene
              Alexander Greene 10 November 2017 20: 05 New
              +3
              Quote: looker-on
              kitchens in a couple of squares were especially impressive since childhood

              Let me not believe you, in childhood everything seems great. As a child, I lived in a small working village and everything seemed great then, now nostalgia tortured me, I came and was surprised how small everything was: both the house is small and the school is small and .....
              1. long in stock.
                long in stock. 10 November 2017 22: 31 New
                +4
                this individual’s childhood has just begun ..
          3. Olgovich
            Olgovich 11 November 2017 07: 50 New
            +2
            Quote: avva2012
            I agree, completely “ordinary things”: a) a scanty number of gentlemen at the top of power should forever parasitize those whom they called cattle, servants, mob, boors;

            Enough of these mossy stupid lying agitation:bring DOCUMENTS of whitewhere indicated. You can’t (as always lol )
            And in the program DOCUMENTS it was clearly indicated: All issues should be decided by the Constituent Assembly of Russia, chosen by ALL the people of Russia, this is the slogan of the White Movement. ALL the people of Russia ,, hear? And not with a bunch of parasitic liars, who seized power and divided the people into people and subhuman people, according to the criterion, apartheid of the beginning of the 20th century. .
            You beat DOCUMENTS, and not a false empty chatter, comrade. Avva! And then for 70 years she snapped at EVERYTHING.
            1. long in stock.
              long in stock. 11 November 2017 08: 29 New
              +6
              read or watch the operation Trust. there in your white movement about all the beauty shown ... but about documents, so for you they do not exist. and here they poked with a top-secret report, so this document was published in 2003 in a collection with the participation of Mr. Khlevnyuk .. that’s another character .. recently there was a publication about him and the Yeltsin center ... the rest is links to him. This document is not available. And you didn’t read it. But you read what the hryvnyak presented to you .. but for you it’s normal. There are people who prefer dirt — even the medical name is such ..
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 11 November 2017 09: 59 New
                +1
                Quote: long in stock.
                read or watch the operation Trust. there in your white movement about all the beauty shown

                Jabber again ... How much can you ?! WHITE DOCUMENTS about "preserving the power of a handful of bourgeoisie, and the rest is" -due !!
                1. long in stock.
                  long in stock. 11 November 2017 22: 58 New
                  +6
                  but there are no white documents .. as there was no white movement .. there were a bunch of different people with different slogans. united them only one thing, they will return again gentlemen ... so you are back in a puddle .. be more specific - documents on kolchak by kaledan or Wrangel. What exactly do you need?
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 12 November 2017 09: 24 New
                    0
                    Quote: long in stock.
                    but there are no white documents ..

                    Learn, study and study .. but, all the same, do not learn no
                    1. badens1111
                      badens1111 13 November 2017 09: 14 New
                      +4
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      anyway, don’t learn

                      What you, here and demonstrate, always.
            2. avva2012
              avva2012 13 November 2017 04: 22 New
              +3
              Enough of these mossy stupid lying agitations: bring the WHITE DOCUMENTS where indicated.

              This is not agitation, Olgovich, this is a statement of fact. Moreover, here are the documents? The whole history of mankind is based on the enslavement of the majority, by the minority, and only the Great October Revolution changed this injustice by removing private ownership of the means of production. The “White Movement” could not offer the people anything but the restoration of the “old order”, and therefore lost.
              Well, if you want a “document”, here is a document describing the structure of your beautiful society:
        2. badens1111
          badens1111 10 November 2017 16: 53 New
          +8
          Quote: A.W.S.
          . But their opponents, the "Reds" and other socialists ... it’s as if the Islamic Caliphate came to power in eReF

          Something lately, like a training manual, people like you about this. Supposedly correspondence.
          The same Mikheev language has erased today on the radio, everything about it is somehow awkward and angrily moaning.
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 10 November 2017 17: 02 New
            +8
            And don’t say how, by the signal of the flag, everyone begins to express their own opinion that de Trotsky made the revolution, then Lenin, already an English spy, etc. Then, one thing is suddenly forgotten, but the other is remembered. Oh, to look at that shaker!
            1. long in stock.
              long in stock. 10 November 2017 19: 45 New
              +4
              oh don’t say .. like parrots .. even I want to cry, I’m not even thinking .. a set of the same words ..
      3. Proxima
        Proxima 10 November 2017 15: 56 New
        10
        Quote: 210ox
        What is the “White Project?” Then write something?

        But is it not better to write that the red movement is a MONOLITH, that is, the Bolsheviks, led by unquestioned authority (Lenin). And the white movement is a rabble of monarchists, liberals, cadets and other adherents of numerous adventurous movements. The divisions in the white movement were already then, but they were smoothed out in the face of general danger (by the Bolsheviks). If White had won, Russia would again plunged into the abyss of civil wars, which would have completely destroyed Russian civilization.
        1. A.V.S.
          A.V.S. 10 November 2017 16: 02 New
          +3
          Quote: Proxima
          the white movement is a rabble of monarchists, liberals, cadets and other adherents of numerous adventurous movements

          Seven of the ten most prosperous countries in the world are monarchies. Liberalism is the policy of approximately 90% of countries (except for those developed as Somalia). And the red movement is either urban madmen like American Communists or evil fanatics running around in the jungle with machine guns.
          1. Proxima
            Proxima 10 November 2017 16: 29 New
            +6
            Quote: A.W.S.
            Seven of the ten most prosperous countries in the world are monarchies. Liberalism is the policy of approximately 90% of countries (except for those developed as Somalia).

            Respected! Do not go into cheap sophistry! Let's not compare gold and diarrhea, just for the reason that both of these items are yellow. The post was about something else:
            Quote: Proxima
            The divisions in the white movement were already then, but they were smoothed out in the face of general danger (by the Bolsheviks). If White were to win, Russia would again plunge into the abyss of civil wars, which would completely finish off Russian civilization.
          2. badens1111
            badens1111 10 November 2017 17: 02 New
            +6
            Quote: A.W.S.
            Seven of the ten most prosperous countries in the world are monarchies. Liberalism is the policy of approximately 90% of countries (except for those developed as Somalia).

            Vaughan Che Mikhalych..et is definitely a training manual..then one of these days one churchman of the Anglican church comes to us, Windsor will be wooed on the royal throne .. that's what the fuss is about .. According to insider sources, a visit to Russia on the 105th agreed with the Moscow Patriarchate the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Wembley, will mainly focus on the prospects for the restoration of the monarchy in Russia and the possibility of inviting the representative of the Windsor dynasty "professing Orthodoxy" to the throne ...
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 10 November 2017 17: 41 New
              +7
              badens1111 it will mainly be devoted to the prospects for the restoration of the monarchy in Russia and the possibility of inviting the representative of the Windsor dynasty "professing Orthodoxy" to the throne ...

              Glory, glory, Orthodox people! Finally, it happened! Now, everything will be like everyone else. The ripples, soldiers, our king, peas showed a muzzle, so we die all for it! Or something like that. Life will begin! Count Serdyukov. Princess Poklonskaya good Lyapota.
            2. Proxima
              Proxima 10 November 2017 18: 20 New
              +3
              Quote: badens1111
              Quote: A.W.S.
              Seven of the ten most prosperous states in the world are monarchies.

              Vaughn Che Mikhalych..et definitely training manual.

              The fact that the training manual is understandable, but you need to use this "folio" wisely, and not cram excerpts about and for no reason.
              1. badens1111
                badens1111 10 November 2017 19: 36 New
                +7
                Quote: Proxima
                but this "folio" must be used wisely, and not cram excerpts about and without reason.

                They can’t, the debit with the loan will not converge.
                Do you know the six principles of Goebbels’s propaganda? They rely on them.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 10 November 2017 19: 48 New
                  +4
                  Quote: badens1111 They can’t, the debit with the loan will not converge.

                  The budget cutters there are the same as ours. The main thing is to show the work and report, therefore, apparently, they are recruiting someone, if only in large quantities. All this riffraff is ready to work for a penny, and the debit with the loan is served as it should. The rest is small, between good people.
          3. chenia
            chenia 10 November 2017 18: 02 New
            +7
            Really compare the current prosperous liberal and democratic Ukraine, with the decaying USSR.
            Morality. Economy. Education. Population growth. Sport. The science.

            Absolute comparison. And feel the difference.
        2. avt
          avt 10 November 2017 16: 37 New
          +8
          Quote: Proxima
          And the white movement is a rabble of monarchists, liberals, cadets and other adherents of numerous adventurous movements.

          Controlled and controlled by interventionists. What is one mission led by Zhanen with .... Peshkov, nee Sverdlov, the brother of the Kremlin Yankel Miraimovich. Yes, and himself, the "supreme ruler" is a British citizen.
      4. badens1111
        badens1111 14 November 2017 15: 24 New
        +2
        Quote: 210ox
        What is the "White Project?"

        The white project is DEATH, murder violence.
        In the anti-Soviet literature about the Civil War, a lot and with anguish is written about the "death barges", which, they say, were used by the Bolsheviks to crack down on White Guard officers. In the book of the historian, doctor of historical sciences P.A. Golub, “White Terror in Russia”, facts and documents are given that testify that “barges” and “death trains” were actively and massively used by the White Guards.
        General Greves, commander of the corps of American interventionists in Eastern Siberia, wrote in his memoirs in 1922: "Terrible murders were committed in Eastern Siberia, but they were not committed by the Bolsheviks, as they usually thought. I would not be mistaken if for every person killed by the Bolsheviks, there were a hundred killed by anti-Bolshevik elements."
        Very visual material on the question of what and who were sadists in white.
        One indicator, taken by the White village, killed among the white-3, killed in the village 507. A clear picture of who killed the Russian people. Https: //cont.ws/@azazell04/767564
    2. looker-on
      looker-on 10 November 2017 16: 32 New
      +1
      Thank you! Removed from the language. Especially about the Bolsheviks
    3. 34 region
      34 region 10 November 2017 16: 36 New
      +6
      A.V.S. Today, 15:06 p.m. *** Specifically: it was impossible to be more malicious, deceitful and cruel than the Communists *** What was the anger, deceit and cruelty of the Communists? The entire development of Western civilization took place by bloody methods. All protests were suppressed through blood. Take the latest examples of democracy. How is democracy introduced? Is the West very sorry for its methods? Or is the communists bombing democracy? Can you describe others by describing this from your image in the mirror?
    4. kalibr
      kalibr 10 November 2017 17: 22 New
      +2
      But didn’t the “whites” win in the end? Whose flag is fluttering over the Kremlin? The ruling party of Russia is called after the Denikin armored train. The coat of arms is an eagle, as before. Why did they leave to that and returned ...
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 10 November 2017 19: 55 New
        +4
        Vyacheslav is not white .. the flag is all entourage ... and believe me, there’s hardly any one who knows who the armored train was called from Denikin .. these people will be of any color if it is profitable ..
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 10 November 2017 20: 11 New
          +3
          there’s hardly any XDUMX riders who know what the armored train was called at Denikin ..

          This is a blow to the liver. Class!
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 11 November 2017 10: 50 New
            +2
            Quote: avva2012
            there’s hardly any XDUMX riders who know what the armored train was called at Denikin ..

            This is a blow to the liver. Class!

            And if they read, if they knew, then instead of a flag there would be someone screwed there !!
            Because there --- banter on the party in power.
      2. zoolu350
        zoolu350 11 November 2017 05: 29 New
        +5
        Not won, but won the battle neovlasovtsy. Soon we will return to the red banners.
    5. long in stock.
      long in stock. 10 November 2017 20: 16 New
      +6
      order of the commandant of the Makeyevsky district of November 10, 1918: “I forbid to arrest workers, but I order them to be shot or hanged; I order all the arrested workers to be hanged on the main street and not to take pictures for three days. ”So only Ungern is a crazy sadist ... well, well ..
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 11 November 2017 14: 39 New
        +4
        So in 1905 the workers were shot a lot, hung up and thrown from trains on the go, and then they were surprised that in 1917-18 they didn’t trust the masters very much ...
        1. long in stock.
          long in stock. 11 November 2017 23: 02 New
          +2
          these are the Olgovichs who are surprised..who everybody normally understands such things. If in 1 world military department it was noted that up to 40 percent of conscripts came with signs of corporal punishment, it’s surprising that the officers were lifted up with bayonets ... he’s so comfortable, he forgets good things quickly but evil remembers a very long time ..
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 12 November 2017 10: 19 New
            +2
            Well, do they really think men for people?
    6. Hantengri
      Hantengri 10 November 2017 21: 52 New
      +6
      Quote: A.W.S.
      The trouble of Russia is that there were few normal people, and there were too many crazy and fools.

      The trouble with all the Einsteins, the Alexander of Macedon, the Spider-Man, the Batman, and other Julius Caesars is that there, behind the perimeter of their specialized medical institution, there are millions of “crazy and fools” who are completely unwilling take the juice of the brain of these "Giants of Thought" seriously! laughing
      1. long in stock.
        long in stock. 10 November 2017 22: 28 New
        +2
        and can give him parabellum?
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 10 November 2017 23: 25 New
          +4
          Quote: long in stock.
          and can give him parabellum?

          To whom A.V.S., or to what thread "Caesar"? "Caesar", damn it, is impossible, for obvious reasons. And ABC is not a fact that it is not from the same chamber .... lol
          1. long in stock.
            long in stock. 11 November 2017 08: 30 New
            +4
            so we’ll give a toy .. then we’ll immediately find out which of them is the main one in the room ..
  2. 210ox
    210ox 10 November 2017 15: 07 New
    +6
    This is understandable .. Ideology won over the slurred mumble about the meaning of life and the crunch of French bread ...
  3. avva2012
    avva2012 10 November 2017 15: 16 New
    11
    Oh, author, well, again, a matrix, a scribbler, because he writes sensibly when he wants to. The whole idea is not in the specificity of the Russian path and its difference from the western one, but in the fact that our ancestors were finally able to turn the wheel of history, remove parasites that prevent humanity from developing freely.
    1. Romey
      Romey 10 November 2017 15: 40 New
      +3
      I’ll make a correction about removing parasites ... It depends on which ones. If we are talking about people like N. Gumilyov or I. Ilyin, then I doubt that they were such. But if we are talking about other parasites, real ones, then unfortunately we can say that this did not succeed and by the 60s a fundamentally new parasitic layer had formed that buried the USSR and is now preparing for the funeral of the Russian Federation.
      1. avva2012
        avva2012 10 November 2017 15: 45 New
        +6
        A parasite is one who appropriates the added value, as well as one who serves this parasite in one way or another. Suppose, he creates, perhaps, brilliant creations confirming the inviolability of the system, when “seven with a bipod, and one with a spoon”.
        1. Romey
          Romey 10 November 2017 15: 51 New
          +2
          It turns out L.N. Tolstoy classic parasite? wink It seems to me that you greatly simplify ... Everything is much more complicated.
          1. avva2012
            avva2012 10 November 2017 15: 55 New
            +6
            And that L.N. Tolstoy served the interests of parasites? Did he not be excommunicated and was he not in the front ranks of the classics of Russian literature under the Soviet regime, which those parasites, this, that? wink In my opinion, are you trying to misunderstand me? laughing
            1. Romey
              Romey 10 November 2017 16: 17 New
              +3
              No, I understand you, but. alas, the past is not painted only in black and white tones and in this world in general everything is relative. I personally just try to understand both sides of the conflict. And it is hardly possible in this process to justify everything with dry lines of the works of the classics of Marxism. For example, what class contradictions could the peasant, say of the Penza province and the Ural Cossack, share? And the difference between them was only that. that one paid taxes in money and the other in blood, and even at his own expense. Everything is really much more complicated ...
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 10 November 2017 16: 24 New
                +5
                And, it seems to me, everything is quite simple. The peasant, like the Cossack (by the way, also a peasant) was the food base for those, I will not repeat myself, only in different roles.
                1. Romey
                  Romey 10 November 2017 16: 34 New
                  +1
                  So here I am about the same thing ... A Cossack would not have so stubbornly butted a peasant for alien interests, therefore it was a question of something else. Probably both sides had some kind of their highest ideals, not fully explained by the injustice of the social system.
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 10 November 2017 16: 42 New
                    +5
                    Why? And the peasant of the Tula province with the peasant of the Bavarian region, which is not divided in the WWII? Everything is simple. Cossack, for example, was poured into his head that he was a special ethnic group, that the peasant was lower than him in position and that was all. Don't you think so? wink
            2. kalibr
              kalibr 10 November 2017 17: 24 New
              +1
              Tolstoy was excommunicated, but not from the Empire! War and peace were in the program of all higher educational institutions of Russia. Before the revolution ...
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 10 November 2017 17: 29 New
                +5
                Ba belay The empire we had was Orthodox. What does excommunication mean in this case?
                1. Romey
                  Romey 10 November 2017 18: 13 New
                  0
                  Nothing at all. L.N. Tolstoy remained in his right and condition. In general, relations between the writer and the Church are a topic for another discussion. By the way, there is a version that L.N. Tolstoy died on the way to Optina Desert, and before that he was in a state of conflict with his family precisely on a religious issue.
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 10 November 2017 18: 25 New
                    +4
                    I, as an Orthodox, albeit “red” one, would very much like for it to turn out that way, he would reach Optina Wasteland, where Lev Nikolaevich found peace for his soul. He was a good man. An officer who honestly fought, a brilliant writer, a wise man who saw the injustice of that "world", which he knew very well.
                    1. avt
                      avt 10 November 2017 20: 54 New
                      +3
                      Quote: avva2012
                      , a brilliant writer,

                      ,, War and Peace "is real fellow next to it, perhaps, only the “Quiet Flows the Don” of Sholokhov can be delivered, but nothing else comes to mind somehow on a scale. request
                      1. Karen
                        Karen 11 November 2017 15: 38 New
                        0
                        avt
                        Circumcision and admission to the ranks of the “God-chosen” will help ... Then the Torah will be the only significant book ...
                        ______
                        It has long been concluded that L.N. Tolstoy wrote this novel in order to inform in detail about the great migration of peoples. Well, when I found out about the last work of the Thinker of his people, I realized that he was not mistaken in his version ... he compiled a dictionary.
            3. parusnik
              parusnik 10 November 2017 17: 58 New
              +5
              avva2012... By the way, under the Provisional Government, peasants ravaged Yasnaya Polyana, and the "bloody Bolsheviks", as soon as they established themselves in Yasnaya Polyana, allocated money to the Tolstoy family in the form of a one-time allowance and money to restore the estate ..
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 10 November 2017 18: 03 New
                +8
                The same thing happened from the estate of A.S. Pushkin. And again the same Bolsheviks, fiends. So, you tell me, they had nothing to do with money? Rolls Royces were already. Would have found yourself batiste footcloths though. Freaks, by golly.
                1. parusnik
                  parusnik 10 November 2017 18: 13 New
                  +8
                  Yeah, cranks are still those, as soon as they came to power, already in 1918 .. began to establish various research institutes, laboratories ... reserves ... that is. they just thought about how to shed a human blood ...
                  1. avva2012
                    avva2012 10 November 2017 18: 21 New
                    +9
                    Apparently, this is a special perversion. Unlike the Romanovs and the company, they, these railroad freemasons, loved to plague the literate, and since there were few of them at RCMP, we had to breed on an industrial scale. And yet, they, these red-bellied ones, did not like the sick, and therefore they organized polyclinics, sanatoriums and some medical institutes did darkness. In short, demons and devilish devils.
                    1. parusnik
                      parusnik 10 November 2017 18: 26 New
                      +6
                      The Devils are simple, not that the White Angel Movement ... Completely angels alone ... Russian Pogon, English uniform, Japanese tobacco ...
                      1. avva2012
                        avva2012 10 November 2017 18: 38 New
                        +9

                        On 4 of April 1920 of the year, General Baron Pyotr Nikolaevich Wrangel arrived in Sevastopol on the English battleship Emperor of India and took command of the Armed Forces of the South of Russia. Not frail such a sealed trailer?
                  2. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 10 November 2017 23: 11 New
                    +6
                    parusnik "already in 1918 .. began to establish various research institutes, laboratories ... reserves ... that is, they only thought about how to shed human blood ..."
                    Please do not talk about this with our indoor White Guards.))))
              2. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 10 November 2017 23: 09 New
                +6
                parusnik "and the" bloody Bolsheviks ", as soon as they established themselves in Yasnaya Polyana, allocated money to the Tolstoy family in the form of a one-time allowance and money to restore the estate .."
                That's because the bastards were doing what!))))
            4. avt
              avt 10 November 2017 18: 32 New
              +1
              Quote: avva2012
              Did he not be excommunicated and was he not in the front ranks of the classics of Russian literature under the Soviet regime, which those parasites, this, that?

              Well, first of all, the synod did not excommunicate, but simply stated a fact - Tolstoy does not want to be in church, well, she’s neither hot nor cold because of this, she’ll survive it somehow, which is actually announced in the MEDIA by LETTER; Secondly, it is the “excommunication” that the heirs propagandize, in the attempts to drive the ROC into, “repentance” rehab before them, but it’s not bully Well and still, yes, Lenin seemed to be saying - ,, Matyoge humanity! "But Dostoevsky - ,, d" the hundredth "hiccup." bully
              1. avva2012
                avva2012 10 November 2017 19: 04 New
                +2
                So then, Lenin, he is a man from the side. But Dostoevsky, who, the same artist, he is his fellow pen, could “love” for this very much. Moreover, according to descriptions of contemporaries, Lev Nikolaevich was very hot-tempered in his youth, and they say his fist “what is your head”. laughing
                1. Cetron
                  Cetron 10 November 2017 22: 13 New
                  +2
                  And what do you want, a Russian officer, an artilleryman and not from the parade guard? As a cadet, Lev Nikolayevich stayed in the Caucasus for two years, where he participated in many skirmishes with the highlanders led by Shamil and was exposed to the dangers of Caucasian military life. With the beginning of the Crimean War, Tolstoy transferred to the Danube Army, participated in the battle of Oltenitsa and in the siege of Silistria, and from November 1854 to the end of August 1855 he was in Sevastopol. For the defense of Sevastopol, Tolstoy was awarded the Order of St. Anne of the 4th degree with the inscription "For Courage", medals "For the Defense of Sevastopol 1854-1855" and "In memory of the war of 1853-1856." Subsequently, he was awarded two [27] medals “In memory of the 50th anniversary of the defense of Sevastopol”: silver as a participant in the defense of Sevastopol and bronze as the author of “Sevastopol Tales”
              2. mat-vey
                mat-vey 11 November 2017 14: 51 New
                +2
                But Kuprin his story about the anathema on what basis wrote?
    2. looker-on
      looker-on 10 November 2017 16: 34 New
      +3
      They turned the wheel what to say ... with human stuffing. Eternally, the whole world prevents communists from coming to a brighter future. I hope the Bolsheviks no longer get to the wheel of history
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 10 November 2017 17: 04 New
        +8
        Quote: looker-on
        Turned the wheel what to say ... with the stuffing human

        Liberals? Yes, that's for sure. Like their Nazi predecessors.
        So the forecast, you will leave power. Forever.
        1. long in stock.
          long in stock. 10 November 2017 19: 58 New
          +6
          you’re a little wrong. the liberal, he is the Nazi. he’s just hiding the swastika ..
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 11 November 2017 20: 04 New
            +3
            Quote: long in stock.
            you are wrong. the liberal, he is the Nazi. just hides the swastika ..

            Well, why ... I am well aware that the extreme degree of liberalism is NACISM. That some individuals of a liberal sense, as well as writers serving them on grants from Soros, demonstrate.
  4. Basil50
    Basil50 10 November 2017 15: 21 New
    +8
    The author is not quite right in the ideology of whites. The whites and those who supported them tried to make up an elite of themselves, right up to the annihilation of those who disagree or doubters.
    In the RUSSIAN EMPIRE, for centuries, serfs were bred as the basis of wealth. The noblemen in the brain raskoryak was from the realization that they kind of like RUSSIAN and trade RUSSIAN. In the west, they traded in other nations, or even blacks. There were differences in geography and language and in appearance. So the idea arose to find differences in justification of the slave trade. After the abolition of the slave trade, the welfare of many nobles was shaken. In addition to returning the rights, including to the peasants, no other options were visible. Hence the blind faith in the West and the willingness to serve the West for the dream of * restoring order * in which they will rule on behalf of the owners.
    This is best reflected in the * White Guard * by M. Bulgakov. Very literary and detailed.
  5. Laurus
    Laurus 10 November 2017 15: 39 New
    +8
    Excellent article and very out of place for the 100th anniversary of the Great Revolution. Unfortunately, our pro-Western liberal government will never miss such an article in the media. So they will be telling all the channels about "balls, beauties, footmen, junkers and waltzes of Schubert" and other French buns on all channels.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 10 November 2017 17: 27 New
      +2
      You know ... will miss! Easy! You just need to add the reference scientific apparatus (links to sources) and forth. Do you want right now I will give you the addresses of scientific journals both here and abroad, where, under the conditions of registration, everything will pass. True, you have to pay. In scientific journals like that. But inexpensive. Within 2-3 thousand. But is this a real fighter for the idea?
      1. Laurus
        Laurus 10 November 2017 17: 56 New
        +6
        Scientific journals are read by people close to science. They do not need such an article, they already know what and how it was. Such articles are needed for those who are told by TV about “Russia We Have Lost” and the Bolshevik villains who arrived in sealed cars with German money and innocently tormented the stopping hundredmilliard people led by the Holy Tsar.
  6. Ural resident
    Ural resident 10 November 2017 15: 59 New
    +8
    "The White Project is a liberal-bourgeois, pro-Western project"
    why write this? Well, you love the Bolsheviks, she loves.
    Here is the history section, as you would like a balanced and truthful analysis. The article is a clear attempt to prove that half of the population was hostile, the Western monarchs, so to speak - and therefore the terror against them was fair.
    I advise the author to read the story, and if he really loves Russia, then it makes sense to write an article about the white movement. And do not give an example that someone shot someone there, it was like that, there was such a time and there were enough bastards everywhere.
    By that time, we had an enormous human patriotic power, educated, making up the backbone of the national Russian elite, which is now practically absent. Millions of people are the foundation of the country, everything in the dust was scattered. There is a volume of literature on this issue, in a nutshell.
    It is interesting to read the diaries of ordinary people, the white emigration - there was so much strength in them - I have never met betrayal anywhere. Their children then returned to the USSR who could.
    But why the Bolsheviks were so uncompromising was incomprehensible. It was possible not to exterminate the entire intelligentsia, the white guard and sympathizers, but to set to work for the good of the new Motherland.
    For some reason, articles are not written about this. I will probably write somehow - so that many historical facts become available.
    1. badens1111
      badens1111 10 November 2017 17: 06 New
      +8
      Quote: A resident of the Urals
      Here is the history section, as you would like a balanced and truthful analysis. The article is a clear attempt to prove that half of the population was hostile, the Western monarchs, so to speak - and therefore the terror against them was fair.

      Which half? Are you seriously sure that Belykh was supported by half the country? Oh she ... now 4% of people in the whole country are thinking about you, and then, all the same 4% were muddied with water, they turned the Civil, then they shamed those who were thrown out of the country as they could, Yes, the Nazis served .. "half the country" ...
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 10 November 2017 17: 33 New
        +3
        In the State Archives of the city of Penza, there are newspaper filings for 1918 -20. and later. So in one of them there is curious material - the peasants of a village write to the Council in the summer of 18. "And we want Tsar Nicholas, with him there was power and everything was cheap." And there was also a war of peasants with the Bolsheviks. Izhevtsy and Votkintsy and much more ...
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 10 November 2017 18: 48 New
          +7
          In 1901-1904 gᴦ. 42 provinces (84%) of European Russia were embraced by the peasant movement. In just the five-year period (1900-1904 g.), 670 peasant riots took place, of which 340 came at 1902 С. Since the spring of 1905, the unrest has intensified so much that what is happening has already been assessed by all observers as a revolution; in June there were 346 incidents noted in the police records, unrest engulfed about 20% of counties. Unrest reaching a peak in the middle of summer͵ decreased in the fall and almost stopped in the winter. Since the spring of 1906, the unrest resumed with even greater force; in June, at the peak of the unrest, there were 527 incidents noted in police records; unrest engulfed about half of the counties.
          And now your numbers, mister historian.
          1. badens1111
            badens1111 10 November 2017 19: 45 New
            +6
            Quote: avva2012
            And now your numbers, mister historian.

            His digits will be thinner, and even far-fetched .. well, the person does not understand what is the reason for the uprisings to which he refers to the notorious Chapanny, who is the inspirer and why it, like Tambov, was suppressed ...
            Here’s the passenger from him. A young man in some kind of newspaper who expressed something in support of Nikolai 2. well and what? Well, it’s there, in the archives, he just forgets to write a little - "The published documents are revealed in the State Archive of the Russian Federation (GA RF), in the fund "Emperor Nicholas II" (No. 601). Several cases of this fund contain letters of various persons to Nicholas II during his imprisonment. Most of the letters are mocking. They express the malicious feelings of private individuals (mainly soldiers, bourgeois and peasants) to the arrested Emperor and his august wife, but part of the letters belong to the pen of loyal subjects of various classes expressing feelings of support for the Royal Prisoners. "https://slavynka88.livejournal.com/297022.html
            Does not understand the difference between MOST and part.
            The question is not even that the part and the moral support of Nicholas2, who forbade them to do this, and why? The question is that it’s only a scanty part, and among the Bely, the monarchists as such, practically there was no .. The idea of ​​the restoration of the monarchy in its former form was unpopular among most of its organizers (the generals and the former Russian elite)
            Biographer A.I. Denikina Lekhovich defined the views of the leader of the "white movement" as "liberalism." According to him, Denikin hoped that "the cadet party will be able to lead Russia to the constitutional monarchy of the British type." So he has "the idea of ​​fidelity to the allies (Entente) has acquired the character of a symbol of faith." That is, when Denikin was a practical bearer of the "white ideal", he deliberately worked for the West, against Russian statehood. Here you have the "color of patriotism"! Http: //historicaldis.ru/blog/435484
            79527 / Istinnaya-sut-% C2% ABbelogo-dvizheniya% C2% BB
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 10 November 2017 20: 00 New
              +3
              The idea of ​​restoring the monarchy in its original form was unpopular among most of its organizers (the generals and the former Russian elite)

              Baron Wrangel expressed himself most clearly: “Russia is not Romanov’s fiefdom!” Even if this is not a transcript, but the general mood of the “white movement” reflects. Yes, and what can we say after almost all the commanders of the fronts expressed their attitude to the tsar, "say, come on, sovereign, do not hesitate." And that, someone expressed his sympathy for Nikolai, it can be recalled that EBN also had the country in 1996, or 2, or 4 percent of the electorate. ps By the way, evil tongues say that Vyacheslav Olegovich was among these percentages and participated in the corresponding meetings.
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 11 November 2017 08: 40 New
                0
                Doctor, you are not a woman to repeat market gossip, right? If you want to know everything, ask me. Yes, I participated, and much more. This work! You, too, should use smelly homeless people ... for a salary. And if you read my articles about PR here on VO, then there it is all described in detail. Why "languages" - everything is in VO!
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 11 November 2017 10: 23 New
                  +5
                  "such a work" ... Yes, no need to explain then, since the work is. Well, for me, homeless people are the same people as we are, unlike some politicians. You won’t mess with them.
                  1. kalibr
                    kalibr 11 November 2017 13: 58 New
                    0
                    It’s also true, and you won’t say anything against it — it can be different in mud. But we have to deal with her, nonetheless. But I still have a choice - if a person is not pleasant to me, then it will be either impossible for him to seduce me with money or, or ... it will cost him many times more. Very much!
                    1. long in stock.
                      long in stock. 11 November 2017 23: 06 New
                      +3
                      as the plumber said to the student, do not get into politics. this is a dirty business ....
                      1. Reptiloid
                        Reptiloid 12 November 2017 15: 54 New
                        0
                        I forgot, some kind of Russian classic. !!!!! Like this: Mother asks her young son why he does not take bribes, he answers "" But who will give me? "
        2. badens1111
          badens1111 10 November 2017 18: 53 New
          +4
          Again...
          In April 1917, the First Provincial Congress of Peasant Deputies was held in Penza. It adopted a resolution - the land should belong to those who cultivate it! Inspired by this decision, the peasants did not wait for the land act from the central government. With the beginning of spring sowing, they independently seized landowners' lands, hayfields and forest lands. The archive has preserved many weekly reports from the field, on cases of seizure of landowner land and crops, logging.

          The establishment of the authority of the Provisional Government and the formation of councils in our province went bloodlessly. However, for a simple worker, little has changed. Entrepreneurs and landowners, together with the Social Revolutionary elite in the Soviets, acted alongside. The owner of the mill, Komendrovskaya, in July 1917, appealed to the district commissar Milovanov with a complaint that the peasants of the village of Kolychevo had taken the mill away from her. The commissar sent a detachment of the People’s Police there. Five peasants were arrested, and the mill was returned to the owner. Only the Leninist decree legitimized the transition to the peasants of the earth.
          http://www.penza.aif.ru/society/vspominaya_istori
          yu_kak_penza_perezhila_revolyuciyu_1917_goda
        3. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 10 November 2017 23: 14 New
          +4
          kalibr "And there was also a war of peasants against the Bolsheviks. Izhevsk and Votkintsy, and much more ..."
          Among them there were many Social Revolutionaries.
    2. venaya
      venaya 10 November 2017 17: 14 New
      +8
      Quote: A resident of the Urals
      We .. there was a huge human patriotic power, educated, making up the backbone of the national Russian elite, which is now almost nonexistent. Millions of people are the foundation of the country, everything in the dust was scattered. Here volumes of literature on this issue are, in a nutshell you will not say.

      Think at your leisure on your own, if any "volumes of literature on this subject“it means someone paid this pretty much. Remember how such waste paper as Co-False books was produced, his books were in many countries along with the Bible, and as they told me in many countries, even in squalid dwellings assembled from cardboard boxes. Someone not only the Bible was very financially well-off, but also volumes of that same SZLZhenitsin. You really do not understand the simple fact that books themselves do not grow on trees, it requires not only funds but also something more important, that is, the whole monopoly on the media, + bribed rulers with their own control services. And imagine this unimaginable situation in which they start to publish books where the truth is written and nothing but the truth. That, in this case, it is possible that super rich people appear with their "honestly earned money ". Still, you don’t have to be such a naive person like you. Or is it that you simply do not know about this issue, but simply share it?
      1. badens1111
        badens1111 10 November 2017 19: 00 New
        +7
        Quote: venaya
        Think at your own leisure, if there is a "volume of literature on this subject" means someone has paid pretty much

        For a thousand books with all sorts of myths, gossip, speculation with thousands of printings, barely 1, and even then a few print runs, but they say there is no censorship in the liberal values ​​system, there is also some ..
        Quote: venaya
        Someone who was very financially well-off not only released the Bible, but also volumes of the same Co-FALSE.

        Exactly.
  7. parusnik
    parusnik 10 November 2017 16: 05 New
    +8
    "White project" ... And who is it? Ukrainian nationalists who fought for a “free” Ukraine, like Belarusian nationalists, Musavist Azerbaijanis, Dashnaks-Armenians, Meghsheviks-Georgians demanded that Denikin cede them to them, Central Asian kurbashi who spoke of a new caliphate, Bashkir, other Tatar, Caucasus nationalists? And also the autonomists of the Don and Kuban, Siberia ... Is this a White project? .. Something like a single and indivisible project does not smell ... but divided and not unified yes .. Which incidentally happened in 1991 .. Not until the chopped wood has grown again ... The slogans of the nationalists of the 90s did not differ much from the slogans of the nationalists of 80 years ago .. You can’t please the Socialist Revolutionaries at all .. they revolted against both the Reds and the Whites, I remind the Socialist-Revolutionary Menshevik Committee that one of the designers of the White project, Admiral Kolchak .. And the multiple green ones (without shades of white-green, red-green) where shall we go to which project? These shot both white and red .. So where is this project, who was the main designer of the white project - Kolchak, Denikin, Wrangel, Yudenich, the Merkulov brothers ..?
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 10 November 2017 16: 28 New
      10
      who was the chief designer of the white project

      Sorry for the vulgarism, but the main designer was Brucho. He wanted French rolls, white-haired girls and power over the stomachs of those who earned on its filling.
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 10 November 2017 17: 18 New
        +9
        This is true ... This is the whole point of the so-called White Project, that is, what we have now .. That is, for inflation and rising prices, for dividing the society into rich and poor, unemployment, for oil and land oligarchs , for a "regional" power, as one of the former American presidents said, nationalists of all stripes and white "fluffy" generals fought with admirals and chieftains for the recognition of Western values ​​...
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 10 November 2017 17: 35 New
          11
          What lost, we all: 1. Right to an eight-hour work day. For the first time in the world in the history of mankind. 2. Right to annual paid leave. For the first time in the world in the history of mankind. 3. The right to free general and vocational education. Moreover, both secondary vocational education and higher education. For the first time in the world. 4. The right to free use of kindergartens: kindergartens, kindergartens, pioneer camps. First in the world.5. The right to free medical care. For the first time in the world. 6. The right to free spa treatment. For the first time in the world. 7. The right to free housing. For the first time in the world. 8. The inability to dismiss an employee on the initiative of the administration or owner without the consent of the trade union and party organization. 9. The right to work, to the opportunity to earn a living by one’s labor. Moreover, graduates of professional educational institutions had the right to compulsory employment in the labor direction with the provision of housing in the form of a dormitory or apartment. 10. The right to free travel to the place of work or study on an individual, state-paid travel document. For the first time in the world.
          And that "found" you described.
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 10 November 2017 17: 49 New
            +5
            Only here you listed, the White Project did not provide ...
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 10 November 2017 17: 56 New
              +5
              And why with such an attitude: “As people in fear of a nasty thing, zero dignity, zero decency, really scum, one contempt worthy people: impudent, ruthless, full of bullying against the defenseless, with impunity not knowing an obstacle of wild unbridledness and anger, but before the strong ones cowardly, obsequious and bowing ... "Drozdovsky MG Honestly and openly, not that some, they say, are for the people, but against the communists.
              1. parusnik
                parusnik 10 November 2017 18: 07 New
                +4
                Enemy, but honest .. Honestly shot the hero of February Kirpichnikov ... And no one reproaches .. But I would like to ask if Drozdovsky came to power, did such heroes of February survived ..?
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 10 November 2017 18: 29 New
                  +3
                  Heroes would stay. At such a time, they always remain such as Drozdovsky would not heal in the world.
                  1. parusnik
                    parusnik 10 November 2017 18: 31 New
                    +3
                    But the repression is not called ...
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 10 November 2017 19: 18 New
                      +9
                      No, what are you! We will not guess what would happen if, but there are a lot of examples in history. For example, when Louis 18 reigned. Something was there with Cromwell and other English fighters for all good versus all bad things, after they truncated the crown of their king (not a martyr still!). A very telling example is China after the 1911 revolution, by the way, also a bourgeois one (he made a reservation of course, a democratic one), such freedom and democracy began there, even if you bring saints. In general, when noble / or for noble purposes, they slaughter each other, this is called constitutional ordering, and when bydlot, then bloody repressions led by bloody tyrants and life .... muzzles. request
  8. avva2012
    avva2012 10 November 2017 19: 21 New
    +3
    mat-vey,
    What a misfortune happened to Shkuro! And so you will believe in karma and other demonic obscurantism. crying
  9. Eurodav
    Eurodav 10 November 2017 22: 26 New
    +2
    "... The White Project is a liberal-bourgeois, pro-Western project. It was put forward by the Masons .."
    Author do not carry nonsense! Ataman Semenov is also a pro-Western project? The Zionomasons moved the project of extermination of Russian people, helping with both of these, if only the number of those destroyed was more ...
  10. Eurodav
    Eurodav 10 November 2017 22: 35 New
    +1
    Quote: A.W.S.
    The “White Project” is completely ordinary patriotism, “Great, Unified and Indivisible Russia.” The white movement is the resistance of normal people - patriots, liberals, monarchists, conservatives - against crazy extremists, criminals, spies and adventurers. Russia's trouble is that there were few normal people, and there were too many madmen and fools.
    Specifically: it was impossible to be more vicious, deceitful and cruel than the Communists. Baron Ungern tried to act like the Bolsheviks - as a result, he was considered an insane sadist by all other participants in the White Struggle.

    Quite true with one caveat ... What prevented White from moving the slogan "For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland!", Huh? Who didn’t give? Who's stopping? "For the Constituent Assembly!" ... and profiled the country ... Not one, even the most radical white military leader, dared to put forward the slogan - "For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland!". And the people in the very early stages of the coup would support the whites ... But ... Indecision leads to impotence! And now we have what we have!
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 11 November 2017 04: 05 New
      +5
      "For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland!". And the people in the very early stages of the coup would support the whites ...

      Is our people crazy? How many peasant uprisings in the Republic of Ingushetia have begun, at least since the beginning of the century, and how were they suppressed, you know? How workers in factories lived (most): http://saint-juste.narod.ru/rabochie_1.html or pdf : http://library6.com/3596/item/304882 Respect your ancestors, who, unlike many other, more "civilized peoples", were able to recall self-esteem and throw off this yoke.
  11. mar4047083
    mar4047083 10 November 2017 22: 40 New
    +5
    Mr. (comrade) author, earlier your articles contradicted each other. And now in one article, you forget what you started. Decide in the end whose project the Romanovs are. I bring to your attention the matrix is ​​a table with numbers, invented by mathematicians. Didn’t you study higher mathematics. How much will you scoff at common sense? If, you could not master the course of higher mathematics, turn to those who could, turn to Wikipedia, well, you can’t be so stupid.
    1. Curious
      Curious 11 November 2017 00: 07 New
      +5
      The word “matrix” has many meanings in technology.
      Matrix - a sample, model, stamp, template, tool in serial production of objects of art and technology. To obtain a specific shape of the product, a matrix is ​​used.
      In foundry, a matrix is ​​a part of a mold having a cavity in which the outer part of the casting is formed.
      The matrix in the dyeing business is a wooden plate with a relief cut out on it of some pattern, which is used for casting metal printed forms.
      If we talk about concrete, then it consists of a solid matrix of a solid material (for example, cement stone), in which grains of another solid material (aggregate) interspersed, sufficiently firmly connected with the matrix material, are interspersed.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 11 November 2017 15: 28 New
        +5
        And this movie is pretty well known ...
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 11 November 2017 21: 10 New
          +3
          Quote: mat-vey
          And this movie is pretty well known ...

          Shmatitsa is better! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJFx28Mlfj8 laughing
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 12 November 2017 10: 21 New
            +1
            It’s not just from this movie that it started - “we are in the matrix” ... everything around us is not real - we are being ruled ..
      2. mar4047083
        mar4047083 11 November 2017 19: 03 New
        +1
        Hello V.N. I agree in many ways. Let the Russian ethnos matrix (in the technical sense, a stamp), then the counter question. And who is the punch (unless of course the author knows this word)? And about concrete. I probably had bad teachers at the “school”, but they claimed that concrete is a binder (not necessarily a cement stone) and an inert aggregate (maybe even gas).
        1. Curious
          Curious 11 November 2017 22: 43 New
          +2
          First, about the matrix and the punch. As for me, if you don’t bring matters to insanity, then any ethnic group in the process of assimilation of representatives of other ethnic groups is a matrix. In this case, the punch is a variety of historical processes. Even in the process of ethnogenesis, some group can act as the basis (matrix) for other participants in this process.
          So, I repeat, you just do not need to bring matters to insanity.
          Now about concrete. It is not worth reproaching your school teachers for the lack of knowledge, since the course of building materials science is hardly included in the program of at least one pedagogical university.
          If we turn to this subject, then concrete is a non-fired building conglomerate consisting of two interconnected structural elements - a binder, which functions as a cementing matrix component, and a filling component.
          If you do not delve further into the theory, the matrix phase of the most common cement concrete in construction is an artificial stone formed during hardening of cement.
          Along with binders that perform the cementing function in concrete, its most important component as a composite material, which occupies up to 80% of its volume, are aggregates.
          Forming the concrete frame, aggregates actively affect its properties, reducing shrinkage stresses, increasing the elastic modulus and reducing creep, affecting the density, etc.
          Further, you can consider many organic and inorganic binders (cement, gypsum, lime, slag-alkali, polymer, polymer-cement concrete are used only in construction) and various aggregates.
          Gas is not a filler.
          Aerated concrete is a type of cellular concrete. Concretes of this type are characterized by equal
          measured pores in the form of spherical cells, the diameter of which, as a rule, is 1-3 mm. The pore volume in cellular concrete reaches 80-85%.
          Distinguish aerated concreteobtained by mixing a binder, water and a siliceous component with a blowing agent (aluminum powder, hydrogen peroxide, etc.) and foam concreteobtained by mixing a similar mixture with foam.
          Here is a brief summary of concrete.
          1. mar4047083
            mar4047083 11 November 2017 23: 33 New
            +2
            In general, everything is true. I found my school textbook and checked. . The only author of the textbook did not apply the concept of a matrix, but the essence does not change.
  12. Lex.
    Lex. 10 November 2017 22: 54 New
    +2
    The Russian autocracy, in their opinion, prevented them, was archaic, and restrained Russia's movement along the western path.
    Nonsense, there were no Russian kings, then Danes, then Germans
  13. Nagaibak
    Nagaibak 10 November 2017 23: 40 New
    +2
    The Reds won first of all in the minds of people forgive the pun.))) On purely military issues, there was the following. The Reds under control was the center of the country, on the territory they controlled, the bulk of the country's population lived. The Bolsheviks had a large mobilization resource. During the period of white power on all fronts, they had 400000-450000 thousand soldiers. The Reds at the end of the war 5 million 500 thousand under arms. The Reds controlled the main industrial centers of the country, Peter and Moscow. And also the centers of the defense industry such as: Tula, Nizhny Novgorod, Sestroretsk. They controlled the railways, which allowed them to maneuver on their own. The presence of military specialists made it possible to create a regular army in a short time. The main thing at the Reds was the Center for Decision Making- ONE. White controlled the outskirts. The mobilization resource is not large. The movement itself was ideologically blurred, incomprehensible. Monarchists, liberals and social revolutionaries in one bottle. Plus, the Cossacks with their kookies.))) By the way, the leadership of the Cossacks by their actions contributed to the defeat of the whites.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 11 November 2017 04: 25 New
      +6
      Reds won first of all in people's minds

      Here you can agree with one hundred percent, and the rest of your theses are debatable. If the majority of the empire’s population did not support the idea of ​​revolution, then no military experts could “create a regular army”. During the Civil War, without a united front, the peasants would have fled and no machine guns, like the "whites" organized mobilization, would not have been able to create this army. As for the railways, it can be recalled, but where was the Czechoslovak Legion located and on what? About the supply of ammunition, weapons and ammunition from abroad, the same can be remembered. So much has been written about how "liberators from w-Bolshevism" behaved "on the outskirts", that is, the Urals, Siberia, D.vostok, and why these "outskirts" in a short time, turned red. give meaning to links. By the way, maybe just such a leadership, and not only there, led to the victory of the Soviet regime?
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 11 November 2017 20: 06 New
        +1
        avva2012 "the majority of the population of the empire did not support the idea of ​​revolution, then no military experts could" create a regular army ".
        1. Desertion from the ranks of the Red Army at first had a large scale. Nobody really wanted to fight. Supporting the ideas of the revolution is one thing and going to fight is another.)))
        2. Military specialists did not organize an army. This Bolsheviks with the help of military experts organized the Red Army.
        3. What does the white-bellows have to do with it?))) Having the center of the Moscow railways, the Reds transferred troops to threatened areas. Remember the Leninist theses. “Everything to fight Kolchak!”, “Everything to fight Denikin,” etc. They could concentrate the troops by transferring them from one front to another front. Therefore, the Reds beat White one by one. And where did the squirrels who controlled the Transsiberian?))) Well, they controlled the Transsiberian, and then what?)))))) You apparently did not understand what I wanted to say?)))
        The supply of weapons to whites from abroad is a separate issue. I can say in every way they supplied them with weapons.))) And in different ways.
        4. About the reddened Urals, Siberia, etc. this is not a topic at all. Initially, White carried out mobilization. They created an army, more or less successfully attacked. Kolchak really had a terrible problem with officer personnel. With White and Red mobilized, the issue of desertion was very acute. It is clear that then their brilliant leadership led to the fact that the people began to hate them. People went into the woods, partisan. But I didn’t write about that. Now, if Lenin would not have transferred the capital to Moscow. Then the Bolsheviks would have been definitely defeated. The center is always stronger than the outskirts. In civil wars. That is not what I said. But I support this idea.)))
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 13 November 2017 04: 58 New
          +1
          1-2. It is foolish to argue with the first two points, because, decisively, people are tired of the war and, unlike liberals, we are aware that in any organization, the main thing is. 3. Transsiberian, very much so. The Bolsheviks would not have been hindered by the transfer of the same food from Siberia. There were weapons deliveries, up to tanks. A very important thing is not war, uniforms, boots with windings.
          4. Everything is in the subject, because if you delve into the analysis of who, where, how much and try to continue your thought, it turns out that the “whites” lost by the “points”. Well, de they didn’t have enough officers, but the logistics are bad, they couldn’t unite ...., and if everything was different, then .... Everything is so, but they lost, because, on that period of our History, the Bolsheviks gave the people an Idea, a goal, as a result of which, the people not only won the Civil War, but also in the Great Patriotic War, “Ideas become power when they take control of the masses,” it’s hard to argue with Lenin, isn’t it?
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 13 November 2017 20: 28 New
            0
            avva2012 "That's right, but they lost, because, at that time in our History, the Bolsheviks gave the people an Idea, a goal, as a result of which, the people not only won the Civil War, but also the Great Patriotic War," Ideas become power, when they take possession of the masses, "it’s hard to argue with Lenin, isn’t it?"
            Therefore, I wrote first that the Reds won first of all in the minds of people.))) In general, at first, the fact that the Reds won ideologically I would not say. They won in the minds of the people entering the civil war. At the end of 18 years. And at the beginning and in the summer of 18th, everything was precarious and incomprehensible to them. And White also had no ice. In the words of Lenin, ideas took hold of the masses by the end of the year 18.))) Before that, few people wanted to shed blood for these ideas. Massive red army became only after mobilization. In fact, for White, the same increase in fighters was mainly after mobilization. Out of the 300000th thousandth officer corps of the Republic of Ingushetia, several thousand fought for the whites in the 18th year. The same Denikin out of 4000 in the Army Army had a lot of studying youth.
            By the way, I highlighted in a post that I analyze purely military moments and not ideological ones. Since I am not interested in analyzing ideological issues.))) This is understandable to everyone except perhaps for our White Guards. Therefore, we can conclude that all of these points led to the defeat of the white movement. And the military and the ideological and economic. To say that the Reds won thanks to only one idea (albeit a wonderful one) is not serious.
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 14 November 2017 05: 34 New
              +2
              In general, it is difficult to argue with your statements.
              By the way, I highlighted in a post that I analyze purely military moments and not ideological ones. Since I am not interested in analyzing ideological issues.)))
              Yes, but when a person has to die, the question, “for what?” For him becomes the main one. All the same, the "white movement", its backbone, consisted of military professionals. In spite of the military specialists, do you still teach the right mass to attack? And from the “whites” side, Cossacks, officers, and cadets, though snotty, but already, at least in theory, know something. Here is just one thing, it’s different things, to die for his name in three yards or all the same for ideals, not even global happiness, but yours and your children.
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 14 November 2017 20: 25 New
                0
                avva2012 "All the same, the" white movement ", its backbone, consisted of military professionals. Despite the military specialists, is it still right to teach the working mass how to attack?"
                Where there were more officers, the Reds or the Whites still had a question.))) From among the Cossack officers there were practically no transitions to the Reds, but there were estate troubles.
                The second point))) - whom to teach to walk in attacks correctly? ))) The country fought for three years in the 1st World War. Millions of front-line soldiers in the country were with combat experience.
                In your opinion, it turns out the peasant came home from the front. I heard how the Soviet government promised him land. And at the first call of the Soviet government came out in defense of it with blazing righteous anger, as he had ideals. I think that everything was not so straightforward. I can illustrate with the example of Cossacks. Orenburg Cossacks heading from the front surrendered almost all weapons. (In my opinion, except for one battery that was under its own power across the whole country.) Most Cossacks were neutral. Until a detachment of commander Kadomtsev from Syzran came to their lands. They began to rob the "loot". Cattle and personal property were taken. In some places, other red figures killed the Cossack officers. And therefore, when the whites and white whales began an offensive in the rear of the Reds, an uprising broke out even before Ataman Dutov came with his detachment from Kazakhstan. The Cossacks organized themselves and knocked out the Reds from their villages. I reproduced it from memory. I read the document. There, from Yekaterinburg, the chiefs called for an end to the robbery of the Cossacks. But, it was too late ... Fighters for ideals fled, I must say quick. At that moment. And the other Reds defeated the Cossacks in another year, organized in the regular army. Political work was carried out with them, etc. And the first entertainers with ideals were simply robbers. Therefore, it was not so straightforward. Many riots and deaths could have been avoided; act locally with some red leaders wisely.
                1. avva2012
                  avva2012 15 November 2017 05: 06 New
                  +1
                  Political work was carried out with them, etc. And the first entertainers with ideals were simply robbers. Therefore, it was not so straightforward. Many riots and deaths could have been avoided; act locally with some red leaders wisely.

                  Kadomtsev M.S., who, born in Ufa, is a nobleman, the son of an official? Participated in the defeat of the Cossack units of the chieftain A. I. Dutov? Headed the defense of Samara? Died near Samara in a battle with the troops of the white-hills?
                  In your opinion, it turns out the peasant came home from the front. I heard how the Soviet government promised him land. And at the first call of the Soviet government came out in defense of it with blazing righteous anger, as he had ideals. I think that everything was not so straightforward.

                  I think that since the textbooks on the History of the USSR there still hasn’t been any other opinion about the reasons for the victory of the Reds in the Civil War, such as: an attractive idea and the atrocities of the White against the peasantry. From the 1917 of the year, after the “February”, the “redistribution” of the land begins. In 1918, after the rebellion was organized, resulting in a "white movement", wherever the "liberators" came, the land returned to the landlords. There are corresponding "white" circulars on punishment of those guilty of unauthorized seizure of land. How were you punished? Well, flogging, that's the minimum.
                  The country fought for three years in the 1 World War. Millions of front-line soldiers in the country were with combat experience.

                  There are hardly any statistics on how many healthy soldiers there were who fought for all three years and returned home. I doubt that there were many of them. Documents have been preserved for the 1917 year that many problems at the front arose because the replenishment did not want to fight initially, and besides, it was poorly trained. And there was a significant amount of this replenishment. After Kornilov was struck by a “clever idea”, to gather all the combat-ready into “drummers” and put the majority, who remained in the troops? So, the large masses who returned from the front are not even soldiers, but men with cutoffs. Most of them did not understand the Marxist ideology, but they could not read. Arriving home, they divided the land, if it was not divided, and calmly were going to cultivate it. But here came the liberators from the B-Bolsheviks and ....
                  1. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 15 November 2017 21: 31 New
                    0
                    avva2012 "Kadomtsev MS, who was born in Ufa, a nobleman, the son of an official? Was he involved in the defeat of the Cossack units of the chieftain A.I. Dutov? He led the defense of Samara? He died near Samara in a battle with the forces of the white whites?"
                    Yes, he.))) I will illustrate how he smashed Dutov. This is a document.)))
                    "as evidenced by a telephone message from Chelyabinsk sent to the regional city of Yekaterinburg on 24.05.1918/25892/3" Until now, the Ufa detachments of Kadomtsev continue to operate in the Verkhneuralsk and Troitsk counties districts requisition livestock, hay, ignoring Soviet food authorities, taking away villages and large villages from the population, small cattle that are driven off by thousands from different villages Terrorize the population by taking away household items up to gramophones Trinity, Verkhneuralsk district councils complain about local councils about it. The anti-Soviet mood of the village is growing noticeably. Hurry to take measures against Ufa otherwise it will be a catastrophe. Chairman of the Council of Deputies Apelbaum "[RGVA, f. 4, op. 209, d. XNUMX, p. XNUMX]. As far as I remember, Dutov was not in those parts then. How did this Napoleon command near Samara and how he died there are different versions so heroic.))) His heroic detachment also knows who he was from.))) This is ideological with it’s hard to name a ford. Kutirin and Blucher drove Dutov across the steppes. After a battle near Brent, they squeezed his small detachment into Kazakhstan.
                    That's about the initial period of the Red Army Here in March 1919, the delegate of the VIII Congress of the RCP (B) Sokolnikov said about this "partisan period" in the history of the Red Army:
                    “The best elements fled to Israel and the USA for permanent residence, and thus the selection of the worst elements was created. Those worst members were joined by those who joined the volunteer army not to fight and die, but because they were left without classes , because they were thrown out into the street as a result of the catastrophic breakdown of the entire social structure. Finally, they simply went there half-rotten remnants of the old army ... In the end, we got a system of independent small detachments, which were grouped around individual leaders. These detachments did not ultimately set their task as much struggle and defense of Soviet power and the conquests of the revolution as banditry, looting .. They turned into partisan detachments that were the pillar of adventurism. You remember the story of Muravyov, and you could list many candidates for the Muravyov epic from these adventurous elements, who advanced in guerrilla warfare and who set their task by no means the struggle under the leadership of the Soviet government, and leaned either in the direction of arrogant banditry and looting, or in the direction of Bonapartism "
                    2. Regarding the front-line soldiers. Of course, those who fought for all three years were few in the army. However, experience in war is gained quickly. In a short time, the replenishment becomes fired. It should be noted that there were units all three years sitting in the trenches and did not really fight. And there were units constantly fighting where the composition changed repeatedly. And the replenishment that came in during the war quickly adapted to new conditions. And there were spare parts that were just untrained and there were a lot of them, especially in St. Petersburg. For example, in the peasant army there were many Makhno front-line soldiers. By the way, there were comrades who fought several times on either side. I deeply doubt that out of the 15-plus millions mobilized for war, a small number had combat experience. Problems in the army began when the one-man management was canceled. Before that, everything was in order, the army was controllable. This is after the February Revolution play out.
                    3. White in the spring - in the summer of 18 acted on the outskirts of the Urals, Don, Kuban landlords there was a miser. The redistribution was in central Russia and in Ukraine. And to those places the bloodthirsty white troops did not reach in 18. But Tambov and Siberia in 21 flashed not childishly yes. Also probably for ideological reasons.)))
                    1. avva2012
                      avva2012 16 November 2017 04: 29 New
                      +1
                      But Tambov and Siberia in the 21 year flashed not childishly yes. Also probably for ideological reasons.)))

                      In general, now, your position is clear.
                      The problems of looting and lawlessness were on both sides. That's just the “Reds" actively fought with this, for example, in the same 1-th horse, and not only there. They drove presumptuous commanders to sinful earth, and sometimes even lower. And, on the other hand, Mamontov’s Cossacks practically thwarted Denikin’s campaign in Moscow because they robbed so much that part turned in general back, and part, though remained, but the stretched carts with junk extremely slowed down the movement and possibility maneuver.
                      Peasant uprisings in Tambov and Siberia.
                      1921-22 years, what were famous for? F. Nansen for whom he collected help? I think, peasants, that in Tambov, that in Siberian villages, it was violet, that some of their brethren, eat bark from trees for food, while others do not disdain humans. But the Bolsheviks did not care. This, after all, in the nightmarish fantasies of the anti-Soviet, Lenin appears as Cthulhu. Apparently, to compare the temporary coincidences between that event and this is not fate.
                      Landowner land in the Don and Kuban, was not, say. What happened. There was a stratification between the Cossacks themselves by property qualification. There were so-called “immigrants”, who, by the way, were actively resettled under the tsarist government in the Don and Kuban. Even that government realized that some riotous heads from the Cossack elite had already "realized" themselves as a special nation and raised the question that there was nothing to feed this Russ.
                      Not from scratch, the yellow water hit Krasnov in the 1918 year. So there was all the buzzing, in terms of conflict, poor-rich, local-not local, without any Bolsheviks.
                      1. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 16 November 2017 19: 58 New
                        0
                        avva2012 "In general, now, your position is clear."
                        Well, write me down as anti-adviser.))))
                        avva2012 "The problems of looting and lawlessness were on both sides. That's just the" red "actively fought with this."
                        Well, yes, they fought. In my example, they didn’t really fight. We did not have time to fight.))) In general, I do not argue that looting was from all sides. And that the Reds fought with him. Some white commanders at their level also fought, but this was rather the exception. Although to restore order among the Cossacks in this regard is a futile business. They robbed always and at all times. In contrast to the Reds, White was afraid to shoot them.))) After all, the Reds and the proletarians could put on a horse, but the White and Cossacks had problems. They did not particularly obey them. These were not subordinates but allies.
                        2. As for the peasants and they were starving to the shit, you were right. Only what for clean raked bread? Saved some, but left others without bread? Or how? So far, Lenin did not replace the surplus appraisal with the tax on taxes of the uprising and continued. Would you gladly open your bins for food detachments?))) We are discussing different situations during the civil war. It lasted more than one year and the situations were different during the war.
                        3. Regarding inequality among the Cossacks. Yes it was, but it was not decisive. Among the Cossacks there were many ascribed, these were soldiers, peasants. The tribal did not consider them for real Cossacks. On average, the plots were equal for the bulk. They were richer, poorer, but let’s say the majority of the modern middle class.
                        About the newcomers. These are immigrants. Cossacks considered them as competitors who want to take away their land, respectively, they were hostile to them. What is in the Urals, Orenburg region or the Don. By the way, the Ural Cossacks reacted to the new government mostly with hostility. And here the stratification of property or class moments has nothing to do with it. They were Old Believers, and stubborn. Therefore, there was a determining religious factor.
                    2. avva2012
                      avva2012 17 November 2017 06: 48 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Nagaybak Well, write me down as anti-adviser.))))

                      So far, it seems, there’s nothing at all, but the hand is already, involuntarily, stroking the holster))).
                      1. Shitty was the case with the “whites” in terms of submission turns out. And what were they going to do after the victory? Who would listen to them? Presented for a moment what would happen to the country. Don, Kuban, the Urals, and maybe Siberia, waved a goodbye to his uncle. Of course, I don’t think that their fate would be happy either. If the state of RI was not so powerful and influential, then what would these pieces mean for friends and partners? Then, the Muslim territories of central Russia would not have looked at this mess for long, not to mention the Caucasus, Transcaucasia and Central Asia. Horror is drawn, and with a good budget, such a quality.
                      2. Rake clean. I don’t know, I don’t know, but the Bolsheviks, I, unlike the anti-Soviet, do not idealize. Who knows, maybe official zeal, maybe, what else. Criminal cases in the future of the repressed must be watched, maybe there, which flashed. Human nature is the same and I.V. Stalin was not in vain, already in the 30's, wrote an article about the dizziness of success.
                      So far, Lenin did not replace the surplus appraisal with the tax on tax rebellions and continued.
                      ))), but what about, a burry ghoul?)))
                      3. I heard about the Old Believers. In general, I believe that aggressive atheism is one of the main mistakes of the Bolsheviks. It was necessary to separate the church from the state, some especially zealous priests, too, but denying Vera, this is stupid. Such a position, then, will repeatedly come across the USSR, in Afghanistan itself. To explain to an illiterate peasant that you are fighting against the atheists is simple. And how much, do not raise the social network there, as you do not try to improve the standard of living, the swing of the grandfathers on Vera, this was unacceptable to them. Dialectics, dialectics, but it is applicable to the created world, and Vera, she herself does not obey any orders.
                      1. badens1111
                        badens1111 17 November 2017 20: 18 New
                        +1
                        Quote: avva2012
                        It was necessary to separate the church from the state, some especially zealous priests, too, but denying Vera, this is stupid. Such a position, then, will repeatedly come across the USSR, in Afghanistan itself.

                        Yes .. there was such a disaster, until 30 until the Trotskyists were driven to where Makar calves did not drive, and after 53, when a shortage of Trotskyists, Nikita corn came to power.
                      2. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 17 November 2017 21: 13 New
                        0
                        avva2012 "So far, it seems, there’s nothing at all, but the hand is already, involuntarily, stroking the holster))).
                        He survived ...))) the good old captain of the militia- DOCTOR scares me with a holster.))) But I'm not afraid of you. In your holster for any, not a trunk, but a thermometer.)))
                        1. I agree with you that White, having won the war, would start fighting against each other. Socialists against monarchists, etc. Plus to this, as you rightly pointed out, nats.okrainy. It is enough to recall how during the war Denikin sent troops to capture the Georgians in Sochi that they captured.
                        2. I also do not idealize the reds. And white as well. Representatives of the warring parties did a lot of injustice then. But with the Reds, everything stabilized over time, a firm order was established, and the population, exhausted by the mess, was glad of at least some order. The value of ideology in the war I do not deny. It’s just that I show that the military factors I have enumerated also directly affected the defeat of whites in the war, while the burry ghoul turned out to be a genius. One move of the Soviet government from St. Petersburg to Moscow allowed them to avoid defeat in the war. And his demand to take the Urals by the fall of 1918? He understood that if the Urals were with White, this would lead the state he led to defeat. This all suggests that Lenin possessed strategic thinking. But White didn’t have a leader of this scale. As they did not have a single center for decision-making and their implementation. It also predetermined their defeat.
                        3. About religious issues, I agree with you.
                2. avva2012
                  avva2012 20 November 2017 06: 12 New
                  +1
                  He survived ...))) the good old captain of the militia- DOCTOR scares me with a holster.))) But I'm not afraid of you. In your holster for any, not a trunk, but a thermometer.)))

                  I think so, captain police, in general, it’s very difficult to scare anything. hi A thermometer, not a thermometer, but we are all liable for military service, and in which case they will give a holster, and what will be there))).
                  And the burry ghoul turned out to be a genius.

                  That’s all, you write great about tactics and strategy. The picture is a sight for sore eyes. And then there’s such a touch. What is V.I. Lenin didn’t please you? Required to shoot? So, without them, without executions, as it turned out, nothing could be done. Practice. Instead, there would be an idealist Trotsky, now, we would find out what, in fact, it is a ghoul in power. Much has been written about V.I. Lenin, and even more, taken from the context. Such a figure in history could not remain without attention. There is a lot of things about the "cook" and about "the more you shoot the bourgeois and the priests, the better." The primary sources are few who read. You can think about the fact that everything was attributed to him. That, he created the practice from the theory of Marxism. In my opinion, this is a human character like that. Yes, a practitioner can perform tough acts, but cruelty is not his goal. Compare with almost the analogue of V.I. Lenin, in the history of our country, with Ivan the Terrible. Media fates are very similar in some ways. Both were accused of bloodthirsty. Both, turned the history of Russia, radically. Both are practically the creators of the new state. But only about one it is known that he prayed for all those killed, and the other was an atheist. True, he died in the 54 year of life from extensive cerebral arteriosclerosis. In the pathogenesis of the development of this disease, at the present stage of development of medicine, it is believed that the cause of such rapid development is an extreme internal stress. What, he worried, what was he thinking, we will never know. Secretive was a man, kept everything in himself. It is very interesting about him as a person, says the historian Kolpakidi.
                  But, in general, it is very nice to meet a Soviet policeman. Over time, you understand what the words in the song mean, "our service is both dangerous and difficult, and at first glance it is not visible." When the service is not visible, the average layman can go out at three in the morning and reach the house without holding an ebony baton in his pocket. And the children in the yard play late. So, taking this opportunity, I want to say thanks for a quiet childhood and youth.
      2. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 12 November 2017 10: 42 New
        +2
        Quote: avva2012
        Reds won first of all in people's minds

        Here you can agree with one hundred percent, and the rest of your theses are debatable. If the majority of the empire’s population did not support the idea of ​​revolution, then no military experts could “create a regular army”. ....... About how "on the outskirts", that is, the Urals, Siberia, D.vostok, the "liberators of w-Bolshevism" behaved, and why these "outskirts" in a short time "turned red ", written so much that it makes no sense to give links. By the way, maybe just such a leadership, and not only there, led to the victory of the Soviet regime?
        I want to add, the majority of the population supported the ideas of the revolution, because the Bolsheviks talked about what would happen! The theses, slogans of the Bolsheviks were understandable What life will be next and people understood what the Bolsheviks wanted to do in the future and how to find their place in the future.
        The white project had no future project
  14. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 11 November 2017 01: 58 New
    +3
    It seems that the author personally communicated with the participants of the White movement. Mr. Samsonov, "In which regiment did you serve?"
    1. badens1111
      badens1111 17 November 2017 20: 37 New
      +1
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      the author personally communicated with participants in the White movement

      I would recommend that you read about General Skoblin, the commander of the Kornilov’s division, an agent of the OGPU FERMER since 1930, and make it clear that even those who fought against the Reds, in the end, realized that there was no homeland other than Russia, whatever its name .
      And he served Soviet Russia in the same way as other, your current dubious heroes, type of skin and all sorts of red-serving against Hitler all Russia against Russia did not serve.
      Which gods do you pray?
  15. avva2012
    avva2012 11 November 2017 02: 54 New
    +5
    creak,
    And Sudoplatov to Vasya how sideways that Vasily is the same hero?

    It is difficult to say the same or not (where the scale by which you rate heroism), but even from the words of the finished anti-Soviet, he fought and is not even bad.
    And, as you put it, "thump", so many who went through this hell .... started.
  16. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 12 November 2017 11: 33 New
    +1
    Here is quite simple:
    The Bolsheviks promised land to the peasants. Won by these promises. And they didn’t give anything in the long run.
    White did not promise anything and immediately lost without the support of the peasants ..

    Sorry, "captain" has already written a similar post. Put him a plus.
    1. avva2012
      avva2012 13 November 2017 05: 02 New
      0
      И gave nothing, in the end.

      I repeat, so as not to hamper you in scrolling the mouse wheel: 1. Right to an eight-hour work day. For the first time in the world in the history of mankind. 2. Right to annual paid leave. For the first time in the world in the history of mankind. 3. The right to free general and vocational education. Moreover, both secondary vocational education and higher education. For the first time in the world. 4. The right to free use of kindergartens: kindergartens, kindergartens, pioneer camps. First in the world.5. The right to free medical care. For the first time in the world. 6. The right to free spa treatment. For the first time in the world. 7. The right to free housing. For the first time in the world. 8. The inability to dismiss an employee on the initiative of the administration or owner without the consent of the trade union and party organization. 9. The right to work, to the opportunity to earn a living by one’s labor. Moreover, graduates of professional educational institutions had the right to compulsory employment in the labor direction with the provision of housing in the form of a dormitory or apartment. 10. The right to free travel to the place of work or study on an individual, state-paid travel document. For the first time in the world.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 13 November 2017 18: 31 New
        0
        Rights have given. But separate apartments (Khrushchev) began to build
        only in the 60s. Beggars, empty shops. Poor medicine.
        The capitalists for the same period have advanced in everything you have listed,
        much further.
        When people pay a lot at work, neither free medicine nor free
        housing. Everything can be bought for your money. And everything is much better.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 13 November 2017 20: 39 New
          +3
          voyaka uh "The capitalists in the same period have advanced in everything you have listed,
          much further. "
          Only the fear of revolutions prompted the bourgeoisie to share.))) In this sense, the October Revolution had a huge impact. The golden age of European countries in a strange way coincides with the presence of socialist countries in Europe.))) How they did not become hard workers put on allowances and production was taken abroad. (Not all of course, but enough.) Another 90s came from Europe due to the collapse of the USSR and socialist countries. And all the campaign. They sailed. I’ve been to Europe))) I wouldn’t go there to live. They live in different ways and the bulk as we are from paycheck to paycheck. Hmm ... but relax and travel wherever it goes.))) About the poor salaries in the USSR is garbage.
        2. avva2012
          avva2012 14 November 2017 05: 50 New
          +1
          You know, I understand your stamp about the "Khrushchev", but apparently even the communal apartments were very different from what they were before the revolution. Maria Pokrovskaya
          About the dwellings of St. Petersburg workers. Published in the journal Russian Wealth, 1897, No. 6.
          http://saint-juste.narod.ru/rabochie_1.html
          When people pay a lot at work, they do not need free medicine or free housing. Everything can be bought for your money. And everything is much better.
          While there is strength and health. You do not set your country as an example; it is simply small, mono-ethnic and with one religion. Plus, some more features in terms of the United States as your ally today.
          And about the fact that they paid little in the USSR (it was impossible to earn), this is a myth. For example, did you hear anything about the "wild brigades"? The problem was different, in the notorious deficit.
    2. Nagaibak
      Nagaibak 13 November 2017 20: 46 New
      +1
      voyaka uh "White did not promise anything and immediately lost without the support of the peasants .."
      It is not true))) White promised the founding.))) By the way, probably about half of the Socialist Revolutionaries and other socialists were among the White.))) The Izhevsk and Votkinsk workers against the Reds went on the attack with red banners and with an orchestra near Varshavyanka. It was they who went to Kolchak in mental attacks and not battalions of white officers (in the photo for the article, by the way from Chapaev). Kolchak had so many officers.)))