Submachine guns on the road to perfection. Answers to the challenges of time

133
Submachine gun: yesterday, today, tomorrow.
New ideas in the field of creating submachine guns became the consequence those calls of timethat once again stood before the military on the agenda. It remained only to translate the answer to them in the metal. And it was done! New types of ammunition have appeared, and under them are new models of modern and more effective submachine guns.

What ammo necessary modern pistols, machine guns?


Today, from experience and according to science, we have the following: heavy and more aerodynamically improved bullets that accelerate more in the barrel, fly farther and more accurately and, accordingly, are less susceptible to wind demolition. But the accuracy of the shot is affected by the return weapons: the lower it is - the more accurately the bullet flies. Therefore, the choice of the caliber of small arms and submachine gun in particular is always a compromise. Now the bullets are becoming more elongated and streamlined, their caliber also decreases, so they accelerate in the barrel to higher initial velocities than before. Well, they try to reduce returns in various cunning ways. And today, bullets of submachine guns, with all other circumstances, fly farther and more accurately than those of the same military models, and at the same time they have better armor penetration.



Submachine guns on the road to perfection. Answers to the challenges of time

American “frontier guards” with Hempler and Koch machine guns UMP45 caliber 11,43 mm


As for our country, in the USSR, at the beginning of the 70-s, a small-caliber 5,45 × 18 mm cartridge was created with a bottle-shaped sleeve, a sharp-nosed bullet and increased penetration, and a PSM self-loading pistol (1972 year) for it. Then came the automatic gun OTs-23 "Dart" for the same ammunition. In 1980-s, they began to design submachine guns for it, but they all remained prototypes. It is believed that since his muzzle energy is only about 130 J, he is too weak for a PDW concept weapon. Although his bullet with a solid core at a short distance allows you to pierce 1-2 class body armor, which is an excellent result for pocket pistols.

It was also decided to create an ammunition with enhanced penetrating power, namely the 9 × 21 mm cartridge, which has a heavy pointed bullet (used in the SP-10, SP-11, SP-12, SP-13 and CP-2 submachine guns “Heather "). Heather allows 100 to break through 4-mm steel sheet at a distance of 70 m. Although in itself its firing range is relatively small, because it has a small flatness of bullet flight. That is, this is also not a “universal”, but a very specific PP for the needs of special forces and firing at the enemy, wearing bullet-proof vests in the melee. Compact 9-mm 9-91 (see BO 24 December 2010) chambered for 9 x39 mm became a kind of hybrid between our traditional machine gun and submachine gun. It is flat, comfortable, with a high (for submachine guns) muzzle energy around 700 J, which is nonetheless lower than that of traditional machine gun ammunition. At a distance of 100, the 9-91 bullet pierces 8-mm steel sheet or body armor to 3-grade protection. That is, it is more profitable than PP under 9 mm “parabellum” cartridges and can confidently hit targets at a distance of 200 m. However, in the army of the Russian Federation, despite all its high characteristics, it did not catch on. Apparently, his ammunition is quite expensive, and the niche that he occupies is narrow.


9-9 Compact 91-mm


In the new conditions, by the way, the old Soviet cartridges for PPSh and PPS of 7,62 × 25 mm caliber may well be used as “armor-piercing ammunition”, since there are a lot of them in warehouses. Thus, in the United States, based on this cartridge, a civilian ammunition, equipped with a sabot (!) Lead bullet with a plastic tray, similar in design to the Swedish cartridge to the CBJ-MS PP, has already been created, and it is considered to be very effective.

Today in the army of the Russian Federation a Parabellum cartridge 9 × 19 + P + is adopted - i.e. the most powerful among its “brothers”, not counting the export version of 9 × 21. And many are surprised by this decision. First of all, its sleeve is only a millimeter longer than the sleeve of the 9 × 18 cartridge to the Makarov pistol. But the main problem of the latter is connected not with the cartridge case, but with the deep landing of a bullet in it, because of which the powder charge in it cannot be increased. A bullet has a small length, which degrades the ballistics and its striking effect. Meanwhile, in the same Belgium, on the basis of the “Makarovsky” patron, the VBR-B 9 × 18 KATE armor-piercing cartridge was made longer (29,6 mm) than the “Makarovsky” one and in almost all its characteristics quite comparable with the same 9 × 19 mm . However, we are also working to improve this cartridge (See, for example, VO "Pistol rounds" 10 January 2012). Well, 9 × 19 + P + could quite possibly be adopted in order to develop new types of PP for it and it is easier to sell them to the West.


Good old "Makarovsky" cartridge.


Opinion of some against opinion of others


Nevertheless, many experts still believe that it is pointless to try to create a new software for all occasions for mass armies. That the supply of two types of cartridges in the case of a real military conflict will complicate logistics, and in the event of a clash of fighters with rifles will not leave the “pistol-riders” chances. Therefore, as an alternative, they offer shortened versions of the machine gun (or "assault rifle"), under the regular for the army ammunition. Again, this concept (or trend) is again suitable for our Russian AKS74 and M4 from the Americans. However, this is in theory, but in practice, PDW submachine guns are still widespread, and there are more and more new samples of them.


Cartridges 7,65 × 17 mm Browning (left), 7,62 × 25 mm TT (center), 9 × 19 mm Parabellum (right)


Moreover, in the USA it is proposed a “step back”, that is, an increase in the caliber of submachine guns and pistols from 9 mm to a larger one. In the 2007 year, for example, the USAF decided that an .40 caliber Smith and Wesson (10 mm), or even the good old .45 ACP (11,43 mm) is suitable for them. They explain it this way: even if these bullets have heavy bullets, they do not give a high penetrating effect, but if they hit the vest they can cause serious injuries of a shock character to its holder. On the other hand, they have high dispersion and it will be quite difficult to hit the target at a distance above 50-60 meters.


Submachine gun UMP45


For the police, and these calibers are good!


But in the police weapon cartridges caliber 9 × 19 mm or .45 ACP are quite sufficient. It is noted that they are not prone to ricocheting, which is very important if the fire is conducted in urban environments. So the rejection of them in the near future is unlikely. Moreover, samples of large-caliber PP type HK UMP45 chambered for .45ACP (11,43x23 mm) cartridges began to appear abroad, oriented, however, primarily for sale in the US, where local police departments enjoy considerable freedom in buying weapons and equipment for their own needs. Compared to the same MP5, this is largely a simplified weapon with automatic shutter-based automation, which is why the UMP on the international arms market costs less than the same MP5.

Trend to the head!


Well, now let's summarize some results and see how the development of submachine guns at the turn of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries resulted. Let's start with the cartridges, because without them there would not be this class of weapon.

So, fundamentally new types of small-caliber cartridges with high-speed bullets with enhanced armor-piercing, but little stopping effect, have appeared. These are primarily ammunition with 4,38-mm, 4,6-mm, 5,6-mm, 5,7-mm, 5,8-mm, 6,5-mm bullets. As you can see - gauges for every taste - take it and create your own cutting-edge software for them. Accordingly, 7,62-mm ammunition “went into the shadows” and does not enjoy the same popularity, but the traditional “Luger” caliber 9-mm lives and thrives, although it undergoes continuous improvements. A new caliber appeared - 10-mm and under it already has a submachine gun "Heckler and Koch" MP5 / 10. Experiencing a kind of renaissance ammunition of large calibers - 11, 43 and even 12,7-mm. And again, because of the proliferation of bulletproof vests. Only small-caliber bullets pierce them, and these ... break through or defeat at the expense of their mass through the barrier.


Swedish submachine gun CBJ-MS. It uses 20 and 30 charging stores, but also these “snail shops” for whole 100 cartridges!


Design: still used free and semi-free valves, to which was added an “automatic” lock based on the vapor mechanism, in which locking is carried out by their turn and even recoil of the barrel with its turning during a short stroke. Samples with a bolt and a magazine in a pistol grip incident on the barrel spread widely.


Russian PP-93 with a magazine in the handle.


Plastics play a huge role in construction materials. Metal on many samples remained only the barrel, bolt, bolt spring (and various small springs) and individual parts USM. Everything else is now made of plastic.


Austrian submachine gun "Steyr" AUG-Z-A3, created on the basis of a rifle and on the system of bull-pap has a plastic case and a translucent plastic shop.


There was a trend towards the use of larger capacity stores. If before the shops were standard in 30 cartridges, and 40-cartridges were rare, today 50-charging stores with a four-row arrangement of cartridges and rebuilding them into one cartridge before serving are widespread. We started using screw shops on 60 and more cartridges. In the Russian Federation, they are located under the trunk, in the USA and in China - above the trunk. In the custom of steel transparent plastic shops, easily allowing to control the flow of cartridges.


American submachine gun with the top location of the auger shop "Kaliko-960".


The fashion trend has become the Picatinny Plank. On the last years of PP, they are attached without fail, and not even one, but 2, 3 and even 4! Now you can hang on a weapon and a powerful sight, and a tactical flashlight, and a laser sight at the same time. Widespread collimator sights. Thus, electronics is slowly but surely moving to a place where, it seems, quite recently there was no place for it!

Modern (2001 development of the year) MP9 submachine gun from Swiss firm Brugger and Tome. It has a very high rate of fire up to 1100 rds / min (see VO “MP9. Super-rapid submachine gun for special forces" 1.05.2019). A collimator sight is mounted on the weapon, as well as a block with a tactical flashlight and laser designator.


Scheme of the device MP9.


Increasingly used modular scheme. Thanks to this, the weapon can be tailored to each fighter individually, and adapted for use by both right-handed and left-handed arrows.


Transparent store on MP9.


Well, what effect (or will be able to bring) the realization of all these "achievements" in practice, we will tell you in the next issues of this series.

To be continued ...
133 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. -2
    9 June 2019 18: 33
    Already wrote the best software is AKS-74U. PP under the pistol cartridge cartridge and does not have any advantages over the AKS-74U.
    1. +7
      9 June 2019 19: 23
      And the best fish is sausage.

      But sometimes you want sausage, and sometimes you want fish.

      Yes

      The tendency is not to replace the machine gun (assault rifle) with a submachine gun at all, but to replace the pistol with a submachine gun and equip the armed with an assault rifle with a pistol as a spare weapon.
      1. 0
        9 June 2019 19: 30
        Why replace the gun with PP?
        1. +4
          9 June 2019 19: 35
          Not everyone knows how to use a gun effectively. Focusing three bullets in black at 25 meters has nothing to do with either the actual tactical use of these weapons, or with self-defense.

          A submachine gun is much more effective at a pistol distance and easier to use.
          1. +2
            9 June 2019 19: 40
            Why do you think if a person cannot learn to use a gun then he will learn how to use PP. What does the PP have another faster and more flat cartridge? No. Auto racing is so stressed and not skillful, it's rather a minus. Store capacity? So modern pistols have a capacity of 15-20 rounds. But the gun can be operated intuitively.
            1. +5
              9 June 2019 20: 01
              Using a pistol is not as easy as it seems, especially when the distance is short, the count goes for seconds and the bet is life.

              I myself am a pistol gunner, an IPSC shooter since 2011, because I am writing what I know for sure.

              From the pistol they shoot "at the pistol", from the submachine gun and the carbine they shoot "at the carbine".

              It is much easier to teach a person to shoot "at a carbine" at such a distance of up to 200 meters than to teach to shoot a pistol up to 25 meters. I just speak from my own experience.

              I have a Glock 17 Gen 4 and I shoot decently with it. After I bought a "carbine-kit", from the same Glock with a stock I get better and faster. And any person will be the same.

              hi
              1. -1
                9 June 2019 20: 13
                Skita shoot better because you know how to shoot with a pistol, and the butt contributes to more accurate shooting. If a person does not know how to shoot, does not have his own weapon that he knows well, he doesn’t care what they give him. It is unlikely that he will fall 200 meters with a pistol cartridge.
                1. +3
                  9 June 2019 20: 20
                  Yes and no. The very method of shooting "at the carbine" gives in itself a faster result with less burnt cartridges.

                  From a carabiner of a whale I did not shoot beyond 100 meters. One hundred meters into the standard IPSC target, everything flew well.
                  And so I shoot in a pistol match in the RCC division (caliber carbine pistol) at a distance of up to 25 meters with a running gear for a while and shooting at moving targets and from uncomfortable positions.

                  Here, the dude also shoots from RCC:

                  1. +2
                    9 June 2019 20: 39
                    Question: with what is a person more likely to fight back when the enemy is already literally a few meters away? The same pistol cartridge distance. Two hundred meters you can shoot in that direction and thereby interfere with the enemy. You can hide, lie down. And at point blank range you need a pistol, a modern Glock type pistol, compact and without unnecessary manipulations with a fuse. And at 200 meters it’s possible to shoot back with AK, with AK it’s better even for 7.62x39 amendments are not needed, which can’t be said about PP.
                    1. +4
                      9 June 2019 22: 23
                      Quote: ssergey1978
                      Question: with what is a person more likely to fight back when the enemy is already literally a few meters away? ....
                      Two hundred meters you can shoot in that direction and thereby interfere with the enemy. ... And at point blank range you need a pistol, a modern Glock type pistol, compact and without unnecessary manipulations with a fuse.

                      In fact, from a pistol, against a well-equipped opponent, you can only effectively shoot yourself.
                      And to shoot, to interfere, to make noise, driving away the enemy ... - he is not a bear, he does not bite.
                      Glock does not have anything outstanding - a convenient gun and nothing more.
                      Quote: ssergey1978
                      And at 200 meters it’s possible to shoot back with AK, with AK it’s better even for 7.62x39 amendments are not needed, which can’t be said about PP.

                      You’d better take 200 meters of SVD - you’ll shoot single at any, even though the cartridge is more powerful, it’s more likely to break through a bulletproof vest and cause injuries.

                      At medium and near range, only weapons with an intermediate cartridge (minimum) will be useful to you. But he will also have problems against the 4th class bulletproof vest (according to the latest GOST R 50744-95 of 2014).
                      1. 0
                        9 June 2019 22: 30
                        And that right everyone runs in armor. SVD is not used to AK and 200 meters for him is nonsense. A convenient pistol is not (and only) in stress that they often forget about the cartridge from the barrel and thinking that the barrel is empty, shoot at the ceiling, and forget about the fuses, etc. Therefore, the intuitive weapon is important. A pistol is a continuation of a hand with all those who are sticking out, but is an eperized opponent immortal or not afraid?
                      2. +2
                        9 June 2019 22: 39
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        And that right everyone runs in armor.

                        Attacks are a must. Only the crowd runs in one pants. There is also a crowd in cinema and its acting level does not correlate with the main artists in any way.
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        A convenient gun is not (and only) in the stress that they often forget about the cartridge from the barrel and thinking that the barrel is empty, they shoot at the ceiling

                        If you hit the ceiling, then you have already been shot.
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        A pistol is a continuation of a hand with all those who are sticking out, but is an eperized opponent immortal or not afraid?

                        Learn to write correctly, otherwise no one will accept your movie scripts.
                      3. 0
                        9 June 2019 22: 43
                        Unlike you, I have been dealing closely with weapons since 2004, and shooting at the ceiling after stress is real. But cinema and scandals are probably your destiny. shoot further on the clave. You need attack aircraft, a meeting with them tends to zero.
                      4. 0
                        9 June 2019 22: 47
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        You need attack aircraft, a meeting with them tends to zero.

                        In combat conditions, if you are attacked or pursued, it will be just a professional.
                      5. 0
                        9 June 2019 22: 50
                        Was there a lot of Bormalei in Chechen armor?
                      6. +3
                        9 June 2019 22: 54
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Was there a lot of Bormalei in Chechen armor?

                        A lot ... Attack aircraft ...
                        Even in the Great Fatherland. Stormtroopers had a war of iron cuirasses.
                      7. -3
                        9 June 2019 22: 55
                        Are you an adult? You are still a German soldier 1mv in keras court glued.
                      8. +2
                        9 June 2019 23: 00
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Are you an adult? ...

                        You can’t perceive reality properly? Is she too far beyond your knowledge?
                        Always the military thought about protection and applied it. There were no fools.
                      9. 0
                        9 June 2019 23: 04
                        In World War II, all my great-grandfathers fought with me, one can now be read on the MO website. with a clipping from a 1943 newspaper and not one has not even seen these keras
                      10. +1
                        9 June 2019 23: 08
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        In World War II, all my great-grandfathers fought with me ...

                        By whom? Drivers, tankmen, gunners, ....
                        Attack aircraft are separate units, such as modern special forces.
                      11. -4
                        9 June 2019 23: 13
                        What kind of drivers are you driving, Score Ivan Sursyakov on the MO website and see what kind of driver he was. Sometimes it's better to chew than talk.
                      12. +5
                        9 June 2019 23: 23
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Sometimes it's better to chew than talk.

                        Sursyakov Ivan Andreevich 1914?
                        Battery Commander 95 Heavy Howitzer Art. brigades.

                        Well, and what does it have to do with attack aircraft or something else?
                        Maybe you think that he transferred to you all 100% of the knowledge about which he did not even suspect. A person even after 5 years forgets a lot and then may wonder how everything changed out of the blue.
                      13. 0
                        9 June 2019 23: 27
                        For 5 years, he raised the remnants of the soldiers in the attack in the absence of officers and personally destroyed 16 Germans only in his last battle.
                      14. +3
                        9 June 2019 23: 33
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        What 5 years, he raised the remains of the soldiers in the attack ....

                        Do you read badly?
                        5 years is a period when a person forgets unused information, especially details.
                        With your ChSV you absolutely do not pull on your great-grandfather.
                      15. -1
                        9 June 2019 23: 41
                        What is faq? Front-line soldiers do not forget the war not when.
                      16. +2
                        9 June 2019 23: 48
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        CSW

                        Self-esteem is an abbreviation widely used on the Internet.
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Front-line soldiers do not forget the war not when.

                        They forget ... They only remember what they periodically remember (cherish the memories) —that's why they gather on holidays (and not only front-line soldiers but that’s all ...).
                      17. 0
                        9 June 2019 23: 30
                        Sursyakov Ivan Andreevich 1902 ordinary.
                      18. 0
                        9 June 2019 23: 37
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        1902 ordinary.

                        Read my ...
                        But again they kept silent about the military specialty. They already said "A" ...
                      19. -6
                        9 June 2019 23: 44
                        What do you want to say that you fought in Keras, so it was not. Even in the 80s, the bulletproof vest was such that if you fall you will not get up on your own, but there was not much sense from him.
                      20. +4
                        9 June 2019 23: 51
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        What do you want to say that you fought in Keras, so it was not.

                        If you don’t know what, it doesn’t mean that it didn’t.
                      21. -4
                        10 June 2019 05: 06
                        Interest for the sake of glanced at Wikipedia and found there these photos and text word for word is the same. That is, your knowledge comes down to rewriting phrases from the wiki on the forum. Are you interested in communicating this way? I’m sure you’ve never held a weapon in your life.
                      22. 0
                        10 June 2019 12: 49
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        For the sake of interest, I looked at Wikipedia and found these photos there.

                        You decided not only to write but also to read ....
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        and the text word for word is the same.

                        What text?
                        I rarely go to Wikipedia - I prefer different sources.
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        I’m sure you’ve never held a weapon in your life.

                        Confidence is the lot of dunno.
                        I served my ...
                        And he visited the hospital with a wounded arm. Unusually there ...
                      23. -1
                        10 June 2019 12: 55
                        I know how conscripts serve, go to the shooting range once a year. My shot thousands of shots, including on a live target. I’m unlikely to be studying with you or at the school
                      24. 0
                        10 June 2019 12: 59
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        It is unlikely that I will learn from you or from the school ......

                        All the same, you have big problems with logic and perception.
                        I am critical of Wiki.
                        And I'm not a teacher to learn from me. Everywhere I say to you in the context of "yourself".
                      25. 0
                        11 May 2020 05: 57
                        Judging by the statements, spelling, etc. your maximum counter-strike
                      26. 0
                        11 May 2020 06: 50
                        I’m embarrassed to ask, what is the connection between spelling and weapons?
                      27. 0
                        11 May 2020 07: 01
                        Lexicon and mistakes at the school level. Like the manner of communication
                      28. -1
                        11 May 2020 07: 06
                        Actually, I didn’t communicate with you. And yet, what does spelling and weapons mean? I have been engaged in weapons for more than 20 years, my shotgun more than you have taken steps in this life. It didn’t occur to you about spelling that the person is busy, writes from the phone, in the end he has a headache. And even though I graduated from both a technical school and a technical university, they didn’t teach Russian there or there. So learn to live another.
                      29. 0
                        11 May 2020 07: 26
                        This is the Internet and comments on the article, for private communication there are private messages. I also write from the phone, but somehow such problems are not observed. Get well soon, the head is an important part of the body. Less pathos, act like an arrogant boy. Nobody teaches you life, just share your findings on the basis of what you read. Adults tend to correct mistakes. For sim, good luck to you.
                      30. 0
                        11 May 2020 07: 47
                        I strongly doubt that you can teach me something, for this at least you need to know something yourself. You write comments under the article about PP and what are your comments about? About spelling, strakball it. e. You probably saw the right airsoft, but didn’t even hold the PP in your hands. So what are you going to teach me? Why did you leave these comments under the one-year article?
                      31. 0
                        11 May 2020 07: 55
                        Dear, you do not have respect for the interlocutor and manners. I'm not going to teach you anything, I just pointed out the shortcomings of your communication style. I didn’t write a word about airsoft - you still have reading problems, but this is probably the influence of your sore head, which you indicated as an excuse for spelling. Because I read this article only now. You obviously had to learn logic. I repeat the last time, less pathos and more respect for the interlocutors. And less knowingly false statements. The discussion is over.
                      32. +1
                        10 June 2019 16: 24
                        I saw this photograph in a documentary about the Second World War, when no one in the USSR heard about Wikipedia, and there wasn’t such a word! The book also contained materials on the actions of the assault groups in 1944-45.
                      33. 0
                        11 May 2020 05: 55
                        If you don’t know something, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t
                      34. 0
                        9 June 2019 22: 32
                        By the way, a bear, unlike a person, is pointless to scare, if he decided to attack you, you only have to shoot a lot and preferably accurately
                      35. +1
                        9 June 2019 22: 44
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        By the way, a bear, unlike a person, is pointless to scare

                        The bear is very afraid of the sharp noise of the shots. People very often meet bears and even a knock on iron drives them away.
                      36. 0
                        9 June 2019 22: 45
                        Any beast, if it cannot go away or is wounded, attacks and it does not make sense to frighten it.
                      37. -1
                        9 June 2019 22: 50
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Any beast, if it cannot go away or is wounded, attacks and it does not make sense to frighten it.

                        Well, why should you contact him (the beast)? Scare - and no problem.
                      38. 0
                        9 June 2019 22: 51
                        If the beast is hungry, wounded, scared, sick, and your face is simply not for him?
                      39. +1
                        9 June 2019 23: 11
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        If the beast is hungry, wounded, scared, sick, and your face is simply not for him?

                        Wild nature, therefore wild, because it does not intersect with civilization. Nature is self-sufficient if you do not destroy it.
                      40. +5
                        9 June 2019 23: 16
                        By the way, about the bear ...

                        Old and young hunters go to the bear and the old teaches the young:

                        - Just look how we will approach the den - do not step on the shit.
                        - So, where is the shit coming from?
                        - There will be a bear - there will be shit!

                        laughing
                      41. 0
                        9 June 2019 23: 19
                        Fortunately, I am slow-witted, mondrage comes after work, because there were shots at the ceiling. You act on the machine, it seems that you have defused the trunk but something has changed and, in addition to consciousness, reflexively distorted the frame.
                      42. 0
                        9 June 2019 23: 11
                        What about the legs?

                        laughing

                        The bulletproof vest - okay, but the legs - are not covered in such a way. Queue on the legs. And that’s it. Fell - you are a corpse. The next line will finish.
                      43. +1
                        10 June 2019 00: 31
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        The bulletproof vest - okay, but the legs - are not covered in such a way. Queue on the legs. And that’s it. Fell - you are a corpse.

                        It’s important not to lose consciousness. Roll over for any shelter and heal.
                        Before the fight, Westerners and all sorts of bandits take special drugs (like energy-drugs) that reduce pain, physical, psychological sensitivity .... A person can continue to shoot until there is deep blood loss.
                      44. 0
                        10 June 2019 05: 24
                        Yes you are a storehouse of knowledge. It is interesting when you shoot in the legs you will follow your knowledge, although whoever shoots you at the computer there are no enemies
                      45. 0
                        10 June 2019 12: 27
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Yes you are a storehouse of knowledge.

                        At school, you probably argued like: why the heck is this physics, mathematics, diploma - I will be the boss.
                        Do not envy - just learn.
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        I wonder when they shoot at your feet, you will follow your knowledge,

                        Of course ... Only fools don't learn anything.
                      46. 0
                        10 June 2019 12: 52
                        You will laugh, and I became the boss. Chief engineer of EW Fleet at 29 years old.
                      47. 0
                        10 June 2019 12: 54
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        and I became the boss.

                        I understood this even when I talked about your FAC ... Many military men I know, because your type immediately coincided.
                      48. 0
                        10 June 2019 13: 08
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Chief engineer of EW Fleet at 29 years old.

                        You have exposed yourself too much. The Internet does not forget anything.
                        For example, I respect absolute anonymity.
                      49. 0
                        10 June 2019 14: 19
                        I'm not a criminal, not what I'm afraid of.
                      50. 0
                        10 June 2019 14: 26
                        You have already revealed many of your psychological weaknesses. Then you can pull the tongue until you talk about any incriminating evidence. Then the noose will tighten tightly.
                        I advise you to change the mailbox (easy to hack) and register on the site and never repeat the above.
                      51. 0
                        10 June 2019 14: 30
                        Who needs a long time viewed my email. There is nothing to blackmail me. I am on the side of the law.
                      52. 0
                        10 June 2019 14: 31
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        I am on the side of the law.

                        Do you think that they will communicate with you for the sake of the law?
                      53. 0
                        9 June 2019 23: 44
                        Glock does not have anything outstanding - a convenient gun and nothing more.


                        And here I do not agree. Glock is, above all, a reliable gun. It’s like Kalash in the world of pistols.

                        And yet - Glock is in 7 calibres and 5 sizes with shops in the full-size version 9x19 from 17 to 33 rounds, not counting the aftermarket of the market, where there are snails and 50 rounds.

                        There are two loudest sounds: "click" when waiting for "bang", and "bang" when waiting for "click".

                        So Glock will always have a shot when you are waiting for a shot and there will be no shot if you are not waiting for a shot.

                        The main fuse is in the head. Glock will do the rest himself.
                    2. 0
                      9 June 2019 23: 08
                      Question: with what is a person more likely to fight back when the enemy is already literally a few meters away?


                      Our sworn friends from across the ocean always carry a gun with them when stripping. Just for such a case. And in case the M4 refuses or there is no time to recharge.
                    3. +1
                      10 June 2019 07: 03
                      Quote: ssergey1978
                      Question: with what is a person more likely to fight back when the enemy is already literally a few meters away?

                      As an option with buckshot ... feel
                      1. +1
                        10 June 2019 12: 15
                        Quote: ssergey1978
                        Question: with what is a person more likely to fight back when the enemy is already literally a few meters away?


                        Late already rushing around. Nothing will be repulsed, since if the enemy climbs even here, then he outnumbers the defenders.
                        Grenade, as the last hello, and - to paradise.
                      2. 0
                        10 June 2019 16: 29
                        In 1941 an ordinary (Ovcharenko?) soldier fought off an entire platoon of Germans with an ax, initially hacking two officers from them.
                      3. 0
                        10 June 2019 19: 45
                        This was the only case.

                        After all, someone won a car in Sportloto. Did you win? Me not.
                      4. 0
                        10 June 2019 17: 16
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        Late already rushing around. Nothing will be repulsed, since if the enemy climbs even here, then he exceeds the defenders in number

                        Watching how, who and where ... request And so, in the same 590 shorter than 5 rounds of 12 rounds with buckshot (yes a reserve with you, yes some skills) it’s quite a hurricane for a not very prepared handful of attackers. feel
                      5. 0
                        10 June 2019 19: 42
                        ... for a not-so-prepared bunch of forwards.


                        And why is everyone so inclined to think that there will be "a bunch of unprepared attackers"? If they have already reached and are about to enter, your comrades who met this "handful" earlier have already been killed.

                        For some reason they think, "I have a pistol, but three tramps have nothing."
                        And if so: "I have a pistol and three scumbags - too"?

                        Surprise ...

                        request
                      6. 0
                        10 June 2019 19: 57
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        And why is everyone so inclined to think that there will be "a bunch of unprepared attackers"? If they have already reached and are about to enter, your comrades who met this "handful" earlier have already been killed.

                        Again - twenty-five ... Against a group of trained individuals and even an APC with a platoon of armed fighters will not help. request What is your comment for? I wrote earlier - depending on how, who and where... request
                      7. +1
                        10 June 2019 20: 11
                        You just love the smooth barrel with buckshot and tend to overestimate its tactical value as weapons.

                        I’m so kaaaatsya. laughing

                        hi

                        Nothing personal...
                      8. 0
                        10 June 2019 20: 44
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        You just love a smooth barrel with buckshot and tend to overestimate its tactical value, like weapons

                        In any case, the taxis are driving. IMHO. But sometimes, at distances up to 50 meters, a smooth barrel in gauge 12 can do things, especially buckshot, it is also less demanding to prepare a shooter in comparison with a short barrel, and every shot with shot buckshot from 12 - I equate to a store from paragraphs. Do you agree? hi
                      9. 0
                        10 June 2019 21: 07
                        and each shot with buckshot of 12 - I equate to a store from paragraphs. Do you agree?


                        I do not agree. The second shot may not be. The line of armor-piercing 7N31 is much more deadly in terms of consequences.
                        It would be true - everyone would be armed with pump action instead of PP. However, the doors are being broken out by the soldiers.

                        Here I shot from the wife of the .44 caliber donated by Remington - a rifled barrel, an animated lead bullet of 217 grains, 30 grains of black powder. On steel plates 5 ... 6 mm thick. A bullet - in pieces, a plate fell. Then he looked at the plate - there are two through penetrations of several millimeters in diameter. Then it turned out that the Kaitseliites (semi-military semi-state semi-voluntary semi-organization of half-sober half-sober militias in Estonia) decided to try the 9mm NATO armor-piercing. Shooting range, like them. IPSCs for armor-piercing and steel core cartridges will immediately be disqualified if they are found.
                      10. 0
                        10 June 2019 21: 46
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        There may not be a second shot

                        This can be said for any weapon ...
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        The line of armor-piercing 7N31 is much more deadly in terms of consequences.

                        About the dice, I kind of said ... request
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        It would be true - everyone would be armed with pump action instead of PP

                        I'm not talking about "specialists" here, but about the common people. In Russia, PP is allowed for the people in a truncated form, and armor-piercing cartridges for the common people are as it were impossible. We are talking about ordinary people, not about specialists. But here, too, the need for invention is cunning. wink We watch the video carefully and to the end, peering between the lines:
                        hi
                      11. 0
                        10 June 2019 21: 57
                        Quote: Horse, people and soul
                        There may not be a second shot

                        This can be said for any weapon ...


                        There is a nuance. This nuance is a quick-fire weapon.

                        One 12-gauge cartridge with buckshot is 9 grains of 8 mm aimed at one target. Between the shots a fairly long period of time at the pump. Semi-automatic 12 caliber saiga is another matter. It's really on par with PP. In addition to penetration.

                        hi
                      12. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 02
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        It's really on par with PP

                        hi Please watch the video completely and to the end. I always post interesting videos full of information for thinking people, otherwise there is only a cry about how people in Russia are limited in weapons. However, as one popular ad said, "you just don't know how to cook them." wink Information is mainly for citizens of the Russian Federation.
                      13. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 04
                        I don’t like such videos where bloggers stick their faces in the frame and shake the subject in their hands instead of just talking behind the scenes, and demonstrate the subject of the conversation on the camera in detail and from different angles.

                        hi

                        We have on sale the same one, but MP5, without an auto fire, also with a long barrel and a muffler simulator around this barrel. RCC - pistol caliber carbine.
                      14. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 08
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        I don’t like such videos where bloggers stick their faces in the frame and shake the subject in their hands instead of just talking behind the scenes, and demonstrate the subject of the conversation on the camera in detail and from different angles

                        This is a good blogger. wink There is a lot of interesting information. I repeat, for those citizens of Russia who endlessly complain that they are "infringed" in the possession of a firearm. For your country this may not be so relevant, but for the Russian Federation it is quite. IMHO. hi
                      15. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 21
                        RCC is a good device for Russia as well. Only, IMHO, ZOO in Russia is somewhat strange with qualifications in the years of using the smoothbore to the right to cut. Sorry, but very narrow-minded people composed this. Shooting tactics from him is fun. True, I did not begin to spend money on a separate child prodigy, but just for half the price of a gun I built a child prodigy around a gun. With the same characteristics. Only cheaper.

                        I have a full set of guns 600 euros + FAB Defense KPOS G2 frame 400 euros + 25 cm barrel 300 euros + impulse silencer 750 euros + collimator prismatic sight 300 euros + magazine for 33 rounds of 45 euros.

                        Barrel 25 cm, silencer. a collimator and a magazine are optional - just a gun and a frame. The frame already has folding mechanical sighting sights with a front sight and a cross over diopter. For a minimum set of 1000 euros. And in a few seconds the gun turns into a PCC and the PCC turns back into a gun.

                        hi

                        A long barrel for Saigi 9x19 and a semi-automatic MP5 and nafig is not needed, but otherwise not sold by law, like a carbine.
                      16. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 29
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        Only cheaper.

                        Didn’t watch the video completely? Sorry. Well, yes it's your business. Since the short-barrel is not allowed in Russia, it’s easier to do it, take a saiga in caliber 20 for commission, in good condition for about 96 euros, and about everything. Cheap and cheerful. However, to each - his own. hi
                      17. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 33
                        Did not become.

                        The blogger’s face in the frame annoys me no matter what he says there. For more than 3 minutes he could not endure this torture with a thick unshaven mug. Sorry, not from evil.
                      18. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 38
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        The blogger’s face in the frame annoys me no matter what he says there. For more than 3 minutes he could not endure this torture with a thick unshaven mug.

                        Well, I don't care much about the look, important information is important to me. And he has a lot of useful information, a very good expert on knives in particular ... good
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        Sorry, not from evil

                        Everything is normal, to each - his own. hi
                      19. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 44
                        For such useful information, possible inquisitive followers can switch to full state support for a long time.

                        stop

                        As a law-abiding person, I myself do not violate the law and do not provoke anyone to violate it.

                        As in itself, Saiga 9x19 RCC is quite an interesting thing without any illegal enhancements. Unfortunately, we cannot buy it from us, although the price would be small for our market. But, damn sanctions ...
                      20. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 47
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        As in itself, Saiga 9x19 RCC is quite an interesting thing without any illegal enhancements. Unfortunately, we cannot buy it from us, although the price would be small for our market. But, damn sanctions.

                        Duc, he speaks about it. wink laughing
                      21. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 49
                        And to hell with him, with Shrek unshaven.

                        bully
                      22. 0
                        10 June 2019 22: 51
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        And to hell with him, with Shrek unshaven

                        Shrek - from German horror. laughing
                        Goodnight! drinks
                      23. +1
                        10 June 2019 22: 54
                        Goodnight!
                        It was nice to talk!

                        drinks
              2. 0
                9 June 2019 21: 21
                But I agree with you.
                When life accounts, there is a lot to look at from a different angle.
                The psychology of gun ownership is very important, because sometimes it is not clear where to shoot, yes, and who is to blame?
                well, you get the point.
      2. 0
        10 June 2019 14: 50
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        And the best fish is sausage.

        But sometimes you want sausage, and sometimes you want fish.

        Yes

        The tendency is not to replace the machine gun (assault rifle) with a submachine gun at all, but to replace the pistol with a submachine gun and equip the armed with an assault rifle with a pistol as a spare weapon.


        And the best sausage, is this a kind stocking, the size of a "good python" with money?
        1. 0
          10 June 2019 19: 44
          Money is gold in coins and bullion from the time of Tutankhamun and earlier.

          Our ancestors taped the toilet three times with money. In the Civil, Patriotic and Pavlovsk reform.
    2. +2
      9 June 2019 19: 55
      Quote: ssergey1978
      Already wrote the best software is AKS-74U .....

      Then, A-91 ... if under intermediate cartridges (5,45 / 7,62 × 39 mm
      5,56 × 45 mm).

      Only this is an assault rifle ... or a carbine.
      But for a reason with a grenade launcher bully
  2. +3
    9 June 2019 18: 54
    Today, the Russian Army adopted the 9 × 19 + P + Parabellum cartridge - i.e. the most powerful among its "brothers", not counting the export version of 9 × 21.


    I am very sorry, but the "western" cartridge 9x21 IMI is not known for anything like the power greater than 9x19, and even vice versa. The legs of this cartridge grow in the legislation of some European countries (Italy, Spain ..) where "military" caliber cartridges cannot be used in the civilian sector. For these countries, a cartridge 9x21 was made, in the chamber of which 9x19 cannot be loaded. And vice versa. There is no additional power there, despite the enlarged sleeve. It's just that bullet landing. As far as I remember, for the 9x21 cartridge there are no pre-honeydewed + P or + P + standards, unlike the 9x19.

    Sometimes they confuse the western completely uninteresting cartridge 9x21 with the Russian 9x21, which grew from
    Makarov’s cartridge and supramedical. This cartridge has a Makarov bullet caliber, more than 9x19 caliber.
    Western 9x21 is a special version of 9x19 for the civilian market, where the circulation of "military" calibers is prohibited.
    Russian 9x21 is a version of the new cartridge based on 9x18 PM for special use.

    The analogue of this Russian 9x21 today is the western .357 Whitefish. Both are 40mm, both are about the same power, but the Western has a .140S & W casing and a standard bullet weighs XNUMX grains.

    By the way, before the Russian 9x21 appeared, special equipment was used (most likely trophy) by Browning High Power, but its usual 9x19 (which is charged for the Parabellums of the beginning of the 20th century) was recognized as insufficient in work on the target, cartridges charged according to the standard 9 mm NATO was not yet or they were not accessible to the USSR. Then in the 1970s, they bought from the French a batch of Manurin MR71 revolvers under the .357 Magnum. These revolvers were solid, strong, and you can still find them in the weapons of the special forces.

    hi

    And for the article to the author, as always, many thanks. Continue to indulge us with such goodies further.
    1. 0
      9 June 2019 20: 29
      And under such a cartridge it would be nice to make that top MP5 or Bison. In general, our gunsmiths, for some reason, do not make PP for different calibers ... even for domestic ones.
      1. 0
        9 June 2019 20: 56
        Because there is no point in PP.
        1. +3
          9 June 2019 21: 46
          Do you know why in modern replicas of muzzle-loading capsule revolvers of the Wild West (used 160 years ago) the front sight is half as high as in the original ones?

          Because the original ones shot at 75 yards, and from modern shoot no further than 25 meters.

          Why am I doing this? And the fact that the military has busts with requirements for weapons that go beyond the reasonable.

          An example of such requirements:
          - the gun must shoot exactly at 50 meters (but really need up to 25 meters and in most cases 5 ... 10 meters)
          - a submachine gun must penetrate the NATO body armor 200 meters (for such a range there are assault rifles and assault rifles. In reality, submachine guns are used from pistol distances to 100 meters).

          If you set unrealistic requirements, then the weapon becomes heavy, bulky and it becomes difficult to shoot from it and even harder to hit.

          There is a point in PP. It makes sense to close the range from 25 meters to 100-150. In this case, the weapon should not be bulky, heavy, it should be easy to shoot from it (low-pulse cartridges) and the stopping effect of these cartridges should be sufficient for firing at a pistol range.
          1. +1
            9 June 2019 21: 50
            So answer what the AKS-74U is not responding. All of the above covers with a margin. That is, it performs the functions of the PP (3 kg curb weight, OD is present), presses performs the functions of a rifle. And most importantly reliable.
            1. 0
              9 June 2019 22: 47
              Answer or not answer - different categories of users will respond differently.

              - Army specialists, tank crews, pilots, KShM operators, etc. will probably say that they are responsible. And there will be no problem either with shops or with cartridges. Size, weight and getting from it to 100-150 meters are quite responsible. They do not need more. This is a weapon in case of emergency. Our hero pilot in Syria fired from Stechkin. Apparently it was not enough. Would Ksenia help? It is unlikely that when one downed flyer against 20 barmaley. Pilots to get out to their better something with a silencer. To remove the dogs or patrol. But not in the bare desert.

              - police? Well, the police are operating in the city. And in the city such weapons are supposed to be only "heavy" ones, who, if they use it, are extremely rare. They come with him more often than they use. If there are terrorists, then there is no time for sentimentality. In theory, the MP-5 in 9x19 is less dangerous in the city. But in Chechnya and Dagestan, they can drive an armored personnel carrier and beat them around the house with KPVT. Who would think about MP-5 here? Well, I do not know...

              - Special Forces? Special Forces has the opportunity to get any weapon for a specific operation. What they need will be. Even western, even Chinese, if explained and stubborn.

              hi
            2. +2
              9 June 2019 22: 57
              Sergei, well, you know about the ricochets from this cartridge (5,45). In the forest, or in the mountains, he is more dangerous for his own than for the enemy, I'm not talking about urban development. And the "stub" bullet is even less stable compared to the "normal" AK-74. Therefore, we need such a machine as a P / P chambered for 9x19, or approximately equal to it in effect.
              1. 0
                9 June 2019 23: 01
                Rekoshet is greatly exaggerated; rekoshet is usually from stones and other solid objects. There is no ricochet from a brick, well, be careful not to use a soft bullet. Often, the AKS-74U was used in a confined space and there were no problems with the reflow
                1. +2
                  9 June 2019 23: 07
                  I am not afraid of ricochets; those who use this underautomaton should be afraid of them. I prefer a full-fledged weapon under the normal cartridge 7,62x39. And from the brick (it depends on which brick and at what angle the bullet enters) there is still a rebound. request
                  1. 0
                    9 June 2019 23: 10
                    My weapon is also 7.62x39. it also ricochets from stone. AKS-74U is a full-fledged weapon; moreover, in certain situations it is not replaceable.
                    1. +2
                      9 June 2019 23: 15
                      I will not argue. If you like it, then so be it. By the way, yes, indeed, there are situations in life when you will be happy even with the Revelli fossil. wink
                      Yes, and the stone has to do with it, we rubbed it for the brick.
                  2. +1
                    10 June 2019 00: 05
                    Any bullets will ricochet at all. More or less.

                    A ricochet of a pistol bullet is considered safe beyond 7 meters.

                    I myself received a ricochet with fragments (fragments) of a pistol bullet - once in the hand and once in the face. There was not even a bruise. Well, it’s dangerous for the eyes. Because points in the dash are required.
              2. +1
                10 June 2019 16: 55
                Quote: Sea Cat
                .... Therefore, we need such a machine as P / P chambered for 9x19, or approximately equal to it in effect.

                hi Greetings Cat ... smile

                good... all in chrome .... drinks
                1. +1
                  10 June 2019 17: 17
                  Greetings Sanchez! hi Beautiful, but, the Christmas tree sticks are chrome, this is a perversion, they would have nickelized the howitzer. laughing By the way, he doesn’t seem to have automatic fire, and the barrel is long. Carbine?
                  1. +1
                    10 June 2019 17: 46
                    ... Yes, the costomizers tried - US folk art smile
  3. +3
    9 June 2019 19: 19
    If earlier machine guns (assault rifles) were actually used at 300-400 meters, and submachine guns 7.62x25 and 9x19 were actually used at 150 meters, despite the marked sight, today the "weather" has changed somewhat.

    Our sworn friends from across the ocean have a strong desire to increase the firing range and ammunition on the target for assault rifles up to 600 meters, and to replace pistols with submachine guns, while leaving them with a range of 150-200 meters, greatly lightening the weapon, reducing the size, caliber and cheapening the ammunition itself.

    There is also a third trend. The contingent armed with pistols does not always know how to use them effectively. To solve this problem, there are attempts to use a "whale" - a kit for converting a pistol into an ersatz semi-submachine gun. Despite the semi-automatic pistol fire in such a conversion kit, medium and below average shooters from the pistol began to show good results immediately. That is, for money less than half the cost of the pistol itself, a bad shooter immediately becomes a good one.
  4. 0
    9 June 2019 19: 53
    The CBJ-MS is definitely missing a bayonet knife.
  5. +3
    9 June 2019 20: 16
    Small 9 mm 9A-91 ... chambered for 9x39 mm
    ...
    However, he did not take root in the Russian army, despite all his high characteristics.
    Of course I didn’t take root, it’s almost as a shaft, only without a silencer.
    Apparently, the ammunition for it is quite expensive, and the niche that it occupies is narrow.
    9 * 39 - a standard cartridge for the "shaft", "screw cutter", in their warehouses at least chew back.
    can be adjusted for use by both right-handed and left-handed arrows.
    I’d like to do it for krivorukov, there wouldn’t be a price feel
    1. +4
      9 June 2019 20: 33
      9 * 39 - a standard cartridge for the "shaft", "screw cutter", in their warehouses at least chew back.


      I strongly doubt that the stocks and availability of cartridges for special weapons can be compared with those for conventional machine guns and machine guns.

      Certainly not "chew back seat".

      hi
      1. 0
        9 June 2019 20: 40
        In any case, it’s certainly impossible to call a cartridge rare and in short supply, and even Soviet stocks have not been shot.
        1. +1
          9 June 2019 21: 23
          Well, let's say, if you give out cartridges for a sniper rifle for machine guns, then there will be a shortage of sniper cartridges.

          After all, you are talking about making a light and compact machine gun for these cartridges under 9x39 for distribution to military specialists, pilots, tankers and others. These 9x39 are reserved for the special forces sniper "Vintorez" and the special forces "Val". Special weapon. Special cartridges with a heavy bullet for a silencer.
          1. +1
            9 June 2019 22: 07
            After all, you are talking about how to make a light and compact machine for these cartridges under 9x39
            I don’t have to think over for me, I know perfectly well that this cartridge is not suitable for the machine, because of the rather strong recoil and disgusting ballistics in comparison with full-fledged machines for the usual intermediate cartridge. There’s nothing even to compare with PP, a completely different class
            distribution to military specialists, pilots, tank crews and others.
            but even if such a weapon is launched into a series and handed out, this one will not change anything at all, all these pilots are firing raiders, God forbid, every 5 years, this is for the first time. Secondly, the faster the stocks of old cartridges are used up, the faster the production of modern cartridges will be established, and this is already a good thing.
            Thirdly, the “Price of a cartridge” is already some kind of completely irrational saving on matches, moreover, they pay with blood, 9 * 39 cannot cost much more than the same 7,62 * 39, the state does not care deeply what to buy in this case.
  6. 0
    9 June 2019 21: 15
    It is difficult for me to comment on something on the topic, but it seems that the "Luger" is the most optimal for a wide range of tasks, and only 9x21 - for specialists.
    Everything has already happened, why change something?
    1. +2
      9 June 2019 21: 29
      Luger, as the common name for 9x19 cartridges - yes. As a private name for 9x19 charging according to the standards of the beginning of the 20th century for P.08 - no.

      The luger cartridge 9x19 and then today's 9mm NATO, not to mention the Russian 7N31, are cartridges with the same geometric dimensions that are completely different in allowable pressure in the barrel.

      It’s absolutely impossible to put 9mm NATO and 7N31 cartridges into Luger P.08 and even in Browning M35, Walter P.38, Mauser C96 (red nine) - rarity will fall apart. Sorry. And the arrow is also a pity - it will tear off (hurt) something necessary.

      hi
      1. +1
        9 June 2019 21: 40
        Well, I did not quite understand your answer, but I trust you as a specialist.
        As far as I understand, the topic of an optimal cartridge will be eternal.
        But let's get back to reality - the 9x19 cartridge will be all-army so far, and 9x21 will be for specialists ..
        And the changes are not yet available.
        1. +2
          9 June 2019 21: 58
          And there is.

          The 9x19 cartridge in different loading options will live for another hundred years. This is yes. One of the reasons is the weapon-human complex, where the weak link is human. So many cartridges have not been invented, but the 9x19 cartridge remains the cartridge that the average person best hits from a "combat" pistol. Better to hit twice from 9x19 than miss twice from .40S & W.

          Russian 9x21 for specials. Who shot .357 Sig or .357 Magnum from revolvers - guess why. Not every person can shoot them accurately and quickly. Large recoil, large toss, weapons (pistols) are slowly returning to the line of sight.
      2. 0
        9 June 2019 22: 02
        The pressures are different but you can stick. Resource decrease it yes.
        1. +2
          9 June 2019 22: 22
          When the resource [unexpectedly] ends in kabum - it may not seem enough.

          crying
    2. 0
      9 June 2019 21: 31
      Russian 9x21 analogue of the western .357 Sig and revolving .357 Magnum.

      Only the mass of bullets is different, and the power of one class is 800-900 Joules.

      And the Russian is a specialist in penetration.
      1. 0
        11 June 2019 15: 06
        That's right: a specialist in armor penetration.
  7. 0
    9 June 2019 22: 33
    One thing is not clear, since reducing the caliber inevitably reduces the stopping effect of the bullet. It turns out that pistols and submachine guns need cartridges of different calibers. But then the very concept of a submachine gun loses its meaning
    1. +1
      9 June 2019 23: 25
      One thing is not clear, because a decrease in caliber inevitably reduces the stopping effect of a bullet


      This is a great art and even a small focus to make a small-caliber bullet fly at the same time steadily, in order to deliver its deadly power to the target, pierce the armor of this target and then still have a stopping effect on the target.

      In order for a small-caliber bullet to exert a high stopping effect on the target, it must start tumbling when hit. The sooner - the better (not for the unfortunate in which she falls).

      To break through the armor you need a light high-speed bullet.

      A light bullet is easily carried by the wind and quickly loses energy with distance.

      There are no miracles. There is an art of compromise.

      hi
  8. 0
    9 June 2019 23: 01
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you! hi But where are the Chinese? Somehow intolerant laughing it turns out: everyone is present, but about them in passing. It's a shame for the younger brother of the Russian elephant. smile
    1. +1
      16 June 2019 12: 16
      Will you Chinese, but what about!
  9. +1
    10 June 2019 03: 21
    Great article as always! The author "deservedly deserves", merci boku!
    There are small notes: 1. 9A-91 has not received distribution, because. cartridges are expensive and the "niche" is small? But what about the "Vintorez" and "Val" AS "well-known" in the VSS army for a long time chambered for 9 x 39 mm? By the way, the "pistol" cartridge "Thunder" (9 x 30 mm) for the PP "Gepard" was also created ... Once the cartridge 9 x 25 mm Mauser was known (Mauser pistols ... Hungarian PP)
    2. The armor-piercing cartridge 9 x 18 mm was also developed in Russia for the PMM pistol .. 3. I support your opinion that the cartridge 7,62 x 25 mm TT could "shake the old days" and it, perhaps, was too hastily removed to the "backyard" ...
    4. I would like to note that for pistols and submachine guns they tried to use not only the 5,6 mm .22LR cartridges and those created on its "base", but also the "NATO" caliber of 5,56 mm ... , 5,56 x 36 mm (USA); 5,56 x 23,5 mm (Switzerland); 5,56 x 30 mm (India); 5. There is such a "niche" - "civilian" weapons. Its peculiarity is the use of especially small-caliber cartridges of "non-standard" (in comparison with "military" weapons ...) calibers (although this is not "obligatory"). pistols with a caliber of 2,7 mm, 3 mm, 4,25 mm .. (In Ukraine, a "firearm" of 4 mm is allowed .., although, maybe in fact, it is 4.25 mm ...) Would you be interested in such a topic for writing an article?
    1. +3
      10 June 2019 21: 27
      In Ukraine, a "firearm" of 4 mm is allowed


      This is one of Flaubert's "recreational shooting" cartridges from the late 19th century. Lead pellet in a side fight brass case without powder charge. The bullet flies out due to the charge of the primer-igniter itself and corresponds to the air in energy. Only without any cylinders and other crap there.

      My grandfather (his kingdom came from Lugansk, the village of Uspenskaya) in the 1920s had a single-shot Monte Cristo pistol under this kind of cartridge. For youth, forgive my grandfather, he wore his show off for the sake of his pants pocket. Charged! He got on the tram on the go and the pistol shot into the thigh. Since then, he did not take personal firearms to the spirit. In the Patriotic War he was the chief gunsmith technician in the naval aviation squadron at the Baltic Fleet. Defended Leningrad, took Königsberg.

      This is my Immortal Regiment today.
      1. +1
        12 June 2019 15: 16
        Remembered! Indeed, Flaubert ... only now the "improved" Flaubert is used more often, that is, with an elongated sleeve and the addition of a certain amount of gunpowder. You had a glorious grandfather ... you have someone to be proud of! I had relatives who fought in the Second World War (there were also those who died), but I don’t know them ... fleeing hunger, my grandmother and her youngest son (my father) enlisted in Sakhalin. On the way, almost all things disappeared; including the documents, the photos that were in the suitcase ... Here is such a selyavi!
  10. +2
    10 June 2019 04: 25
    In the dispute over the ammunition for the PP, there are contradictions that we want to get, stopping effect or defeat for protection, then at what distance, the first determines the shape and contents of the bullet, the second charge force. Following, in fact, why all dances with PP, this is the density of fire in a short period of time. In fact, we will come to the decision of the Americans in Vietnam to solve the problem of high density fire at short distances, RPD with a truncated barrel.
  11. +1
    10 June 2019 06: 14
    I hope there will be material "Here are the Chinese ..."
    Quote: Nikolaevich I
    Would you be interested in such a topic for writing an article?

    Interested in everything. The question is where to get reliable information?
  12. +1
    10 June 2019 06: 16
    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
    This is a great art and even a small focus to make a small-caliber bullet fly at the same time steadily, in order to deliver its deadly power to the target, pierce the armor of this target and then still have a stopping effect on the target.

    Very well said. Asks for an epigraph!
  13. +1
    10 June 2019 08: 25
    American submachine gun with the top location of the auger shop "Kaliko-960".
    ===
    yeah, an example of the breadth of design views