Submachine gun: yesterday, today, tomorrow. Part of 2. Unusual first generation PCB

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Well, what was the most interesting submachine gun of the first generation in design? If we all decompose them in one row, then ... the choice will be made easily. In the aggregate of all indicators, this will turn out to be ... yes, don't be surprised - not German, not Swiss (although he is also German in essence) and not a Czechoslovak model, but ... Finnish Suomi submachine gun m / 31 designed by Aimo Lahti.


Submachine gun "Suomi" with accessories and shops.



His full name was Aimo Johannes Lahti, and he began developing his own submachine gun from 1921, as soon as the German MP-18 fell into his hands. However, maybe it was the MP-19, produced under the provisions of the Versailles Peace Treaty for the needs of the police of the Weimar Republic. And he certainly liked him, otherwise he wouldn’t do it. But having liked it, this submachine gun made Lahti think about how to make the original sample even better and more perfect in all respects. His first model, embodied in the metal, had a caliber of 7,65-mm and was called KP / -26 (konepistooli Suomi m / 26), and he immediately went into production in the same year. True, it was produced in quantities not too large. Well, the word Suomi meant the name of his country, that is, Finland.


The first sample is often very strange. So “Suomi” m / 26 also looked like a perfect “something” ...

However, he did not stop improving this model, which eventually led to the appearance of another model in the 1931 year, called Suomi-KP Model 1931. The release of this sample lasted for quite a long time - until the 1953 of the year, and about 80 thousands were made in total.

Surprisingly, the “Suomi” was considered by the military rather as an ersatz of a light machine gun than weapon assault units. It turned out that there were not enough such machine guns, but just “Suomi” arrived in time and ... the military demanded to put a replaceable trunk of a great length on it, as well as give it a large-capacity store, as well as bipods. So not only the Czechs saw in the submachine guns a version of the lightweight machine gun. And, by the way, this was the case when the same designer, still in 1926, offered the army his own machine gun for the Lahti Soloranta rifle cartridge L / S-26. Well, make it, saturate the troops, and then buy a machine gun from the Czechs, from the Germans, if Czech seemed not very suitable because of the small capacity of the store. But no - they decided to compensate for the lack of a machine gun by the presence of submachine guns. So much so that some samples of "Suomi" were produced in a version for bunkers, that is, with a pistol grip and no stock at all!


Around 500 copies of "Suomi" were intended to equip bunkers and bunkers.

But the effectiveness of this submachine gun as a light machine gun was low due to the low striking ability of the pistol bullets. Therefore, the Finns had already directly during the hostilities of the outbreak of the Winter War to revise their military doctrine and hastily increase the production of Lahti-Solorant L / S-26. Then, fortunately, the captured DP-27 turned up for them, which turned out to be much better than its Finnish counterpart. But on the other hand, they increased the number of infantry from 1 unit to 2-3 per unit, which immediately affected the increase in the firepower of the Finnish infantry. Be that as it may, it should be noted that the Suomi, as a first-generation submachine gun, went very far from the MP-18 and became a successful model, although it also had its own, with very specific flaws. On the other hand, some of them were more likely attributed to him. For example, one can read in our literature that the drawback was the lack of a fore-end under the barrel behind the magazine, which is why when shooting we had to hold it by the magazine. But the PPSh had exactly the same design. But ... for some reason, this lack of our sample is not seen. However, “Suomi” really required a good training of personnel, since the vacuum shutter retarder that stood on it was very sensitive to the slightest pollution, dust and even simple fogging. By the way, the submachine gun Aimo Lahti liked not only in his homeland. The license for its production was bought by Denmark, where it was produced under the designation m / 41, Sweden (m / 37), Switzerland (and there they understood a lot about good products!). Here he went into production under the designation MP.43 / 44, and in total there were 22 of them released. 500 copies of Suomi were purchased in Bulgaria in 1940-1942. Sweden purchased 5505 units, and produced M / 420 37 thousand units. About 35 units were purchased by Croatia and Estonia, and Germany received 500 Finnish-made Suomi submachine guns, which went into service with the Waffen-SS units in Karelia and Lapland. They also armed the 3rd Finnish battalion of the Nordland regiment, owned by the 042th tank SS division "Viking". From Denmark, the Germans received a certain number of Madsen-Suomi, which they gave the designation MP.746 (d). Somehow, an unspecified amount of Suomi fell into Spain's civil war. The captured “Suomi” fought in the Red Army both during the “Winter War” and during the Great Patriotic War.

How was this rather original submachine gun set up, which set a kind of trend, in modern terms, to the designers of many countries of the world. In general, “Suomi” was a typical first-generation software that started its “pedigree” starting with MP-18. So, the shutter resembled German from MP-19, (ancestor of the Austro-Swiss “Steyr-Solothurn S1-100), but at the same time it had its original design highlights. However, about this a little later, but for now it is important to note that this sample was made according to very high quality standards, very soundly, but ... with the use of a large number of machine tools. The bolt carrier had to be milled from solid steel forgings, converting whole kilograms of metal into chips! The strength was high, but the weight (in the curb state more than 7 kg) was not small, and there’s nothing to say about the cost. By the way, this is one of the reasons why this software was released in relatively small quantities.

The submachine gun had the simplest automatics, operating at the expense of the recoil of the free shutter, and fired from the open shutter. That is, the hammer on the gate was fixed motionless, and the barrel itself was not locked when fired! Such a design to slow down the rate of fire or requires a large mass of the shutter, or some devices. And on “Suomi” such a “adaptation”, or rather “highlight” of its design, was the vacuum shutter brake, arranged in a very original way. The barrel box of a cylindrical shape and the bolt, also in the form of a cylinder, were so tightly fitted to each other that the air breakthrough between them during the movement of the bolt inside the receiver was completely excluded. There was a valve in the back cover of the receiver, which allowed the air that was there to go outside, but on the contrary did not let it through. When the bolt went back after a shot, he squeezed air from the back of the receiver to the outside through this valve. At the same time, there was an overpressure, and here it slowed down the shutter. When, under the action of a return spring, the valve began to move forward, the valve closed, and a vacuum appeared behind the valve, which also slowed its movement. Such a device made it possible to solve several important tasks at once: to achieve slowing down of the movement of the shutter when moving both ways at once, and hence, reducing the rate of fire, and also to improve its smoothness, which most favorably affected the accuracy of fire.

To prevent dust and dirt from entering through the slit for the bolt handle, and, of course, in order to increase the tightness of the receiver, the designer placed the L-shaped shutter handle separately from it, right under the back plate of the receiver, and firing she remained motionless.


Submachine gun "Suomi". Appearance and view with cuts. The L-shaped reloading handle, which is located behind the left, is clearly visible.

Another feature of “Suomi” was the design of the barrel casing and the barrel itself, which were easily removed together, which made it possible to replace overheated barrels and maintain a high rate of fire. Although the sector sight was calibrated over a distance of 500 m, the real range when firing bursts did not exceed 200 m.

Shops for "Suomi" were of several types. One of them is box-shaped for 20 cartridges, then a disc for 40 cartridges, the design of Lahti itself, and finally, another drum magazine for 70 cartridges developed by engineer Koskinen in 1936 and weighed as much as 40-charging. In Sweden, four-row box magazines with a capacity of 50 cartridges were designed. In 1950-e, a box-based store on 36 cartridges from the Swedish Karl Gustov M / 45 submachine gun began to be used. The soldiers of the Finnish army, as, incidentally, the soldiers of all other countries of the world, were strictly forbidden to keep a submachine gun when firing at the store, so as not to loosen its latches and the mouth of the receiver. But this prohibition in combat almost always violated.


Drum shop machine gun "Suomi".

Despite the fact that the production of Suomi was generally small, the Finns demonstrated their skillful use in battles during the Soviet-Finnish war of 1939-1940. Then these submachine guns made a strong impression on both the private and the commanders Red Army. In fact, this is what forced our military to speed up the production and mass production for the army of this new type of weapon. Moreover, plans for the deployment of PP production in the USSR were adopted even before the Finnish War, but their implementation in practice went slowly. And then everyone saw, and many still experienced firsthand what it means to have a submachine gun with a large supply of ammunition in a wooded area, and it’s not surprising that all forces were immediately thrown at the “automation” of the Red Army fighters. In addition to the fact that even Fedorov’s machines were withdrawn from the warehouses and returned to service, they quickly increased the production of Degtyarev's submachine guns, and at the same time they also modernized them.


Finnish soldier in the forest in an ambush with a Suomi submachine gun in his hands.

By the way, the “winter war” has become the peak of the use of drum shops. They were immediately adopted by the Red Army and the Great Patriotic War, our machine gunners met with such high-capacity stores. And ... already in its course a truly amazing thing came to light, however, it was obvious from the very beginning. The use of such stores for the most part ... is not justified. They are more complicated and much more expensive to manufacture, and they are also less reliable than box-shaped “rozhkovy”. In addition, they weight the weapon and deprive him of maneuverability. It is not necessary to change the store for a long time, but the stock of cartridges is much more convenient to carry in pouches. And it was not without reason that in the USSR, having taken the Suomi drum shop as the basis for the late modification of PPD and PPSH-41, in the second year of the war they returned to the traditional box stores. The truth is that in the cinema (oh, this is a movie!), And also in the newsreel footage from submachine guns in the hands of our fighters, drum shops are much more likely to have.

To be continued ...
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  1. +1
    24 February 2019 06: 59
    Here is an unusual compact weapon "upside down":
    http://www.sinor.ru/~bukren1/anti_t_b.htm
  2. -3
    24 February 2019 07: 15
    The real ancestor of the Soviet Second World War submachine guns. Even visually visible similarity. And history confirms this. But with Kalash, it’s becoming more and more difficult for our illiterate liberals who claim that Kalashnikov didn’t invent anything and that the captured Germans made the machine, it would be worthwhile to study the design of the AK-47 and the Germans: components and parts that worked well in the Soviet Second World War small arms, not in German. But the main plug in the creation of the machine of those years is the shutter locking mechanism. In Kalashnikov, turning the shutter larvae is the most reliable automatic locking mechanism to date, known since the beginning of the 20th century in small arms. But competently applying it in the machine under an intermediate cartridge was the first to Kalashnikov. From Kalashnikov, all successful assault rifles went with the turn of the shutter larva and so far nothing has been better invented. And during the war, with such a lock was an American M1 Garand self-loading rifle, which the Americans loved, and Kalashnikov really liked the design of this rifle. Although Kalashnikov did everything in his own way, the donor of ideas here was clearly not the Germans, but the Garand rifle. The Germans in those years were on par with the Soviet gunsmiths and fumbled with locking the skew of the bolt, which was more suitable for self-loading rifles, but for fully automatic it was no longer very reliable and the military rejected such rifles.
    1. +2
      24 February 2019 10: 15
      Well, not funny. The previous article in this series talked about PPD-34.
      1. 0
        24 February 2019 14: 42
        Quote: Ural-4320
        Well, not funny. The previous article in this series talked about PPD-34.

        He was not too lazy and found graphic images from the weapons directory of the Soviet submachine guns of those times PPD-34 and PPSh-41. On the graph, the similarities and differences are better visible with the Finnish machine presented in the first photo in the article. The graphic image is more contrast.

        Here is the finn from the article:


        Here is the PPD-34:


        Here is the most famous Soviet submachine gun of the Second World War - PPSh-41:


        In my opinion, it is foolish to deny the similarity of the Soviet PCA with the Finn from the article. Inside, everyone has free gates, and the simplest triggers, and fundamental differences between all three of the PP can not be found. PPSh - the simplest and most technologically advanced in manufacturing - this is also known. But even purely visual in PPSh with Finn, there are similarities that are foolish to deny. According to the experience of the Soviet-Finnish war, the Soviet gunsmiths were given a clear idea of ​​what kind of submachine gun the Red Army needed, and they did as always.
        This is not an isolated case when Soviet gunsmiths took a successful foreign sample as a donor and created weapons for it under a new technical task. A very successful German Walter was the donor of Makarov’s pistol - I know both of these pistols well, I even disassembled and studied the designs of both, Makar is better and more convenient for my hand, but the donor was Walter, as mentioned in the specialized literature on weapons.
        1. +3
          24 February 2019 15: 15
          Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
          PPSh - the simplest and most technologically advanced in manufacturing - this is also known.

          But what about PPP? Is it like the simplest and most technological? Consumption of materials is 2 times less, and labor costs 3 times than that of PPSh ...
          1. +1
            24 February 2019 15: 38
            Quote: kuznec
            But what about PPP? Is it like the simplest and most technological? Consumption of materials is 2 times less, and labor costs 3 times than that of PPSh ...

            PPS later appeared. And according to the experience of the Soviet-Finnish war, just PPSh-41 came out very similar to the Finn. Although not a copy, but the roots of the Finn are clearly visible in the PCA. PPSh was often collected by schoolchildren in simple workshops. PPSh is also very simple in design. PDP was unsuccessful and complex in design, and soon after the start of the Second World War, it was withdrawn from service, and its production was discontinued. PCA until the end of the war prevailed in the troops. And of the rifles - Mosinka, although there were already self-loading rifles, but less reliable than Mosinka. During the war, the evolution of weapons accelerates several times. After the Second World War, in general, Soviet troops switched to a Kalashnikov assault rifle, because even during the war the Germans acquired hand-held automatic rifles with a longer effective automatic range than submachine guns. Now if Russia begins to fight, and if the Russian elites do not flee to the West (which they are carefully preparing for), as the Polish politician did, for example. elite in the Second World War, Russia will end the war with much more advanced weapons than it has now. But Kalash is likely to continue, like Mosinka in the Second World War.
            1. 0
              24 February 2019 18: 55
              Whirlwind, in general, I liked your comments, but I do not agree with the war.
              I was taught that "Soviet people are peace-loving" and now V. V. the least wants to fight, and you are going to fight
            2. +2
              24 February 2019 19: 27
              PPSh and Suopyumitnichesky had nothing in common. Is that the principle of automation. In general, there is nothing in common
            3. 0
              24 February 2019 22: 58
              Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
              just PPSh-41 came out very similar to the Finn. Although not a copy, but the roots of the Finn are clearly visible in the PCA. PPSh was often collected by schoolchildren in simple workshops. PPSh also has a very simple design

              You contradict yourself. After all, it is written that the "Suomi" consisted mainly of milled parts, and the reliable operation of the shutter required minimal tolerances. Such a weapon cannot be simple and technologically advanced - in those days there were no CNC milling machines, everything had to be done by skilled workers, not schoolchildren. And the PPSh was developed with the expectation of the widespread use of stamping, which was new for the USSR and the patriarchs of the domestic school of designing automatic (Fedorov and Degtyarev) weapons were at first perceived as heresy.
        2. +1
          24 February 2019 20: 45
          Outwardly similar, but the implementation of the principle of action varies enormously. There, only the name of the parts is common. Both the diesel and gasoline engines are the same for the machine - both internal combustion engines, but the principle of operation is different in general. Although both there and there are timing, KShM, and on modern there are nozzles.
          Reducing the rate of fire with a mass of the shutter and vacuum braking are fundamentally different solutions to the same problem.
        3. +2
          24 February 2019 21: 31
          Major, you are wrong. The similarity between the PPSh and Suomi is only external, in terms of layout, and also in terms of its intended purpose as a "melee" weapon. Just like Kalash and Sturmgever, their purpose is naturally different from that of the PP. To speak about the identity of the design of these systems, sorry, is illiterate. hi
          1. +3
            24 February 2019 21: 54
            Quote: Sea Cat
            The similarity between the PPSh and Suomi is only external, in terms of layout, and also in terms of its intended purpose as a "melee" weapon.

            Inside, all the air-operated submachine guns have minimal differences, often at the level of "different tastes of oysters." I see that the PPSh was created under the influence of a Finn, and I understand why this was so. But I don't write that the PPSh is a technical and technological copy of Finn. TT is not a copy of the 1903 Browning, although it is made on its basis, the PM is not a copy of Walter, although it absorbed from Walter all the good accumulated by the Germans in the Walter firm, but it was remade from scratch and is not a copy of Walter, it is much better in the hand closest to PM Walter PPK, but Walter's nature is visible both visually and when disassembling weapons. And here you can see the influence of the Finn, but there is no stupid copying - everything is done wisely and with knowledge of the structure and operation of automatic weapons. From the Zhuk's handbook, I specially cited illustrations of the Soviet PPs, which were compared above. I found these pictures on the Internet and I liked them, downloaded the Beetle's reference book. So, there are no illustrations of a Finn in this Soviet reference book, so as not to ask extraneous questions. There are other Finns, but this is not. I am a technologist by education and I see the difference between a Finn and a PPSh, but there is also a Finn's influence on the design of a PPSh.
            1. +2
              24 February 2019 22: 07
              There is a Finn, "Suomi" 1931, and a number of muzzle modifications. A. B. Zhuk "Small arms" (revolvers, pistols, rifles, pistol - machine guns, machine guns). Military publication 1992. Page 600. By the way, no one edited the Zhuk, "so as not to ask extraneous questions", he created and published his books on his own initiative and in complete solitude. He redrew several samples for himself in my museum. The beetle was an enthusiastic and talented person, he rest in peace. soldier
              1. +1
                24 February 2019 22: 42
                The directory is good, at the level of the best western weapons books of this kind. I searched around and on this village, but this Finn did not see. They are located there by country. He is in the directory. Soryan, did not notice. It can be seen that the Finn shop was very popular with the Russians, which also influenced the design of the PPSh box. Later, PPPs already went to box stores - less bulky, and more simple and reliable in operation.
                1. +2
                  24 February 2019 23: 04
                  Yes, this guide is several orders of magnitude better than all Western catalogs of that time. But, friend Whirlwind, what kind of "bed design" are you talking about, what is there to design something. At least compared to the same shoulder pad? A piece of wood, it is a piece of wood in Africa. smile
                  1. +1
                    24 February 2019 23: 27
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    what kind of "lodge construction" you say, what is there to design something. At least compared to the same shoulder pad? A piece of wood, it is a piece of wood in Africa.

                    I read a beetle in childhood. He was reprinted several times. The first books were still Soviet - I remember that for sure. Because the first I read published back in the 80s. I watched the years of publication in books. A single reference book, which included all of his previous books, was published in the 92nd year.
                    Lodges. A weapon has a box, not a box or ... box. laughing Not quite a piece of wood. The design of the new PPSh drum store influenced the design of the PPSh box and it became closer to the Finnish one. Soviet designers did not show off, but studied with others and produced weapons that won the war. They did not throw grubs. Now, in principle, too, but cheers-patriotism, that in Russia they invented weapons, a barrel, a cartridge and a revolver reminds me of another cheers-patriotism, where Bandera is a hero, and Muscovites stole everything at night and taken to Moscow wink Germans from all over the world assemble and construct successful elements for their weapons, Americans similarly, Italians, Belgians generally dragged the Browning weapons genius to their homeland in Belgium to snatch a piece of the weapon miracle, and they don’t hum, consider themselves to be advanced gunsmiths as well.
                    1. +1
                      24 February 2019 23: 50
                      Well, I don’t argue. And about the elephant, which is a "truly Russian animal" there are enough talkers. As for the weapon, EVERYONE pulls from EVERYONE without embarrassment, and they do it right. And then while you will "reinvent the wheel" do not re-invent for a long time before you have to feed a foreign army. Still, only talented people, such as John Browning, Hiram Maxim and Hugo Schmeiser, are driving this industry sharply forward. Alas, I can't name any of ours on the shooter, they are great craftsmen - yes, decent designers, but there are no ingenious INVENTORS. Although, stop! There is, of course - Igor Yakovlevich Stechkin! He invented a magnificent pistol, it's a pity our warriors underestimated it.
                      1. +1
                        25 February 2019 00: 13
                        If they bypass patents, then they pay license fees. And when the patent runs out of time, then good immediately stretch all chopping chip in weapons designers in their corners. This is a worldwide practice. The patent is valid for a limited time. Of the good Russian designers: Mosin, Kalashnikov, Dragunov, Degtyarev, Shpagin, Simonov and a number of others. Gryazev and Shipunov with their team also noted in small arms. In hunting Soviet weapons were very successful developments. One TOZ-34 of the designer Korovyakov is worth it - he took the first prizes at international arms exhibitions, we are still loved by hunters. We do not even know many designers by name, but we know and love the weapons they developed. I have many weapons designers that I don’t even know about, because I’ve never been interested, I just shot and enjoyed the shooting results.
                      2. 0
                        25 February 2019 01: 21
                        I have a piece BM-16 of 1963. They offered in exchange Benelli, and even surcharge. Politely sent by the forest. Well, the rich have their own quirks, we have ours. drinks
                      3. 0
                        25 February 2019 02: 17
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        I have a piece BM-16 of 1963. They offered in exchange Benelli, and even surcharge. Politely sent by the forest. Well, the rich have their own quirks, we have ours.

                        For me, the first hunting rifle was from which I shot and hunted back in school - TOZ-66, with the older ones, of course, but I remembered the model of the gun. One old hunter almost gave me a piece of bezkurkovka in nickel in perfect condition, and wanted to leave TOZ-66 to himself, but he gave it to me to hunt. TOZ-66 is already the 12th caliber, but it didn't bother me. I quickly got acquainted with a bunch of hunting weapons as soon as I started hunting with elders. Only 12-caliber self-loading shotguns were too heavy for me in my school years. A double-barreled gun with a bang. Kalashi’s fighting didn’t feel recoil at all, only after sporting weapons inside Kalash everything dangled when I felt the same - accuracy suffered from this in comparison with high-precision sporting weapons, I managed to put different sporting rifles, pistols, and 12-gauge self-loading seemed heavy and uncontrollable . MTs loved sports weapons. I immediately saw the hit on the target of the MC - it was in my hands like an ordinary sports rifle, but the accuracy of the MC was higher.

                        I remembered another ingenious Soviet pistol - MTs-3 "Record", designed by Sheptarsky, based on the Margolin pistol. It was quickly banned by the International Rifle Union, because this Soviet pistol left no chance of victory for traditional pistols. But the Soviet shooters managed to collect medals and set records with him. Banned in time. This is to say that Russians "are not as talented gunsmiths" as foreign ones. Enough talent and always enough. MC-3 "Record":
                      4. 0
                        25 February 2019 17: 09
                        Good afternoon, dear Whirlwind! hi
                        I know the story with the "Record", but I completely forgot about Margolin, thank you, you reminded me, the designer was from God, but he was completely blind.
                        As for hunting, I have already abandoned this occupation for a long time, I have been shooting for my whole unrighteous life. Spruce will fall into the hands of something completely new and interesting. request
                      5. 0
                        25 February 2019 17: 36
                        I shot a lot of margolin and other sports pistols. But I love weapons with a butt and more seriously so that you can shoot accurately at a normal distance. And for hunting to be suitable, because not a single game will let you go at point blank range. True, the hare once stepped on the field with cabbage, but this is just a coincidence. The best gun in the world, as for me, is the old PM. I compared him with many pistols not the benefit of the latter, including with the German Walters close to him. It is a pity that the PM century is about to expire. But as a weapon of self-defense, he still remains an excellent option. And for the protection of the home is suitable. Only laws need to be changed, but here there will be great resistance.
                      6. 0
                        25 February 2019 19: 21
                        Not every game does not allow, grouse, for example, does not notice a sleigh with a horse at point blank range. They hunted in the army with single-barrel 32 caliber (a friend of the local young lady married).
                        And the hare once at night flew into the headlights of my father's Dodge, so my father slapped him right into the "separation" from a TOZ-8, and I learned to shoot with this rifle.
                        As for the comparison of pistols, I will say that not every "Walter" makes sense to compare with the PM, besides, the R.38 Makar is not suitable for all counts, well, except for the dimensions, of course.
                        Regarding the laws, I completely agree, but ETA authorities will never go to the open sale of the short-barrel.
                      7. 0
                        26 February 2019 00: 23
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        And the hare once at night flew into the headlights of my father's Dodge, so my father slapped him right into the "separation" from a TOZ-8, and I learned to shoot with this rifle.

                        Poachers so hunt for a hare - turn on the headlights and the hare cannot turn. And so they drive the car until they crush it. And on foot after a hare chasing with two flashlights is useless - it is faster. I shot from TOZ-8, which is with an iron store. Lightweight rifle, but sports more precisely. TOZ-8 is not as tough as the target ones; it’s worse on a bunch of targets, as you don’t try. I shot from different shooters in childhood as a child, but my love is MC - they are accurate. He did not like only heavy weapons, he thought that it was possible to make very light without compromising accuracy, until he matured and was taught what sopromat was.
                      8. 0
                        26 February 2019 00: 31
                        We had a TOZovka without a store, single-shot. The barrel is very thick and the rifle is heavy, but it hit exactly. I had to hand it over "voluntarily" together with the "Walter" of the 9th model, but there was not enough ammunition for it - 6,35mm. request
                      9. +1
                        26 February 2019 00: 41
                        with a thick barrel - this is the target. There are many different models. And I shot TOZ-8 from the storefront as a child in a shooting gallery, with a hunting trunk profile. The rifle is of high quality, as for hunting, but it cannot compete with the target in accuracy. We are small in the dash constantly competing, who will show the best bunch, and the coach sometimes gave us one MC, and another TOZ-8, to make fun of us, while we did not understand anything. You don’t sweat with the tozovka, but a bunch are all early 2-2,5 times worse than with the MC - you get crazy, you spit that they gave this magazine rifle. But she is heard how she leads when fired - she is not tough.
                      10. 0
                        25 February 2019 18: 03
                        About how much we have been bogged down with the faculty yet!
            2. +3
              24 February 2019 22: 30
              Major_Vortex Well you wrote. At one time at the PVAI department of small arms, I was told a lot about all this ... Who, what, where and how ...
              1. +2
                24 February 2019 23: 13
                Good night, Vyacheslav and thank you! hi The topic is awesomely interesting and you can talk on it ad infinitum. We had a PCA in our department, a gift to Konstantin Rokossovsky, well, I’ll tell you, it was something! All metal parts are nickel-plated, a mahogany bed, not a machine, but a toy! Someone before me made a tricky drill like a trunk, there is a thick steel dice in front of the store below, so they drilled it, and the trunk remained intact. In general, we shot from him in the shooting gallery of the All-Russian Research Institute of Forensic Expertise. Probably the marshal himself didn’t shoot from him, go, and he was more than enough for the war. good
                1. 0
                  25 February 2019 18: 01
                  Envy take, oh-oh. I just held on to it all ...
                  1. 0
                    25 February 2019 19: 28
                    There was also M3A1 donated by Cubans to Marshal Sudets for organizing Cuban air defense. With a donation tablet, he was taken from the battle at Playa Heron, a completely new one. They also shot it off, I liked it, on short ones there was no return at all, and this was at forty-fifth. smile
    2. +6
      24 February 2019 11: 23
      And where did you get the idea that Suomi is the ancestor of our PP. These are absolutely three different types of weapons that differ in their technicals. characteristics and the principle of operation of the weapon mechanism.
    3. The comment was deleted.
      1. +4
        24 February 2019 14: 10
        Quote: erf
        Did not invent ...

        This nonsense of a madman was not too lazy to write, knowing that from the first to the last word all your statements are a lie? Key decisions in the design of the AK affecting its reliability migrated from the Soviet small arms from the Second World War. The competition itself, in which Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov participated, envisioned the exchange of technical solutions between the participants in the competition with the aim of developing the most suitable automatic machine. Simply put, Kalashnikov borrowed successful decisions even from other participants of the competition, just like they from Kalashnikov - this was stipulated by the terms of the competition. According to your theory, are the Germans in captivity so seriously studied the Soviet weapons school that they decided to abandon their own-German weapons school in favor of the Soviet? Or you just never saw a Kalashnikov assault rifle device live and don’t understand what and for what purposes this weapon was made and how it functions. The key moment of the design of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, over which all the minds of that time occupied with this topic fought, is the locking mechanism by turning the shutter larvae. This locking mechanism was used on machine guns of the First World War, and was in a more modern American self-loading rifle Garanda. Not copied, because the principle of locking by turning the shutter larva can be structurally made different and there is no need to copy anything without a special need for this. And the Garanda rifle was self-loading, and the Kalashnikov rifle was fully automatic. The American M-16 rifle and its derivatives have the same locking mechanism, but made according to a different patent. In all automatic rifles of NATO countries, the shutter larva is also turned, the French FAMAS half-free bolt rifle is a rare exception, but the French have already refused it, the Germans have already refused the half-bolt in their German assault rifle even earlier. Israeli weapons - the rotation of the shutter larvae in the locking mechanism, and they are constantly fighting with their neighbors, and what kind of weapon the Israeli military needs is well understood. Everything that is produced from automatic rifles and automatic rifles in the world and is not a clone of a Kalashnikov rifle, or a clone of a Eugene Stoner rifle - everything is 99% rotated by the shutter larva, the exception is experimental and obsolete designs, and rare commercial designs not accepted by the modern armies of the world due to serious fatal flaws.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +3
            24 February 2019 15: 58
            Quote: erf
            How can one talk about the originality of this unit with the same principle of locking the barrel with hundreds of other weapons?

            This is because you do not distinguish between the principle of locking in the weapon and the specific design of the bolt. The principle of such locking in weapons has been known for a long time. But Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov was the first to make a successful design of an automatic machine with such locking. For the Germans, the machine guns were locked by a skewed bolt, as in the Soviet self-loading rifles of the Second World War, from which the Germans copied elements of successful automation into their weapons. You do not know at all the history of weapons, and how much during the war the Germans copied from the Russians. And having arrived in the SSR, the Germans sharply "grew wiser" and began to make weapons according to Soviet patterns? Kalashnikov has a lot of different weapons in the design of the assault rifle, primarily from the Soviet. But from the Germans there is only a box magazine for 30 rounds for an intermediate cartridge and a barrel shorter than that of a self-loading carbine for the same cartridge - there is also a successful German experience in the combat use of assault rifles in WWII. And the AK design is not German, to your great regret. Otherwise, the Germans would have bombarded the USSR with lawsuits and demanded payments. As they did with the Americans, who copied the bolt for their Sprigfield from the German Mauser 98. And the Americans did pay royalties to the Germans for their rifle in service with the US Army. You are illiterate, and the topic of weapons is generally a dark forest for you.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. +3
                24 February 2019 17: 56
                Quote: erf
                And the AK design is not German, to your great regret.

                Paraguayan?

                Soviet. You theorize from fierce envy and weapons of ignorance. And your cave Russophobia gives you a limited person and a loser. I remember your nonsense in the subject of submachine guns chambered for 7,62 mm TT. You also proved something there.

                In fact: the Germans in the Second World War were successful: the Mauser 98k magazine rifle - the whole world has copied it and is still copying it, machine guns - after the war, were in service with the armies of the world for a long time, self-loading pistols - the Soviet PM is a revised and perfected Walter. The rest of the small arms the Germans endlessly modernized and often under the impression of Soviet weapons and under the influence of Soviet models, as was the case with the self-loading German rifle Gewehr 43, the prototype of which was the Soviet SVT-40, after the unsuccessful model Gewehr 41 which was not liked by the troops and preferred the captured Soviet "Light". So much for the principle of operation of automation with a gas outlet and locking by a skewed shutter, so beloved by the Germans in the Second World War.

                With the submachine guns, the Germans generally got tired of it, because Soviet anti-aircraft guns killed 7,62 mm TT killed the Germans before they could approach the distance for return fire. As a result, it resulted in the supply to the German army of raw and imperfect assault rifles under an intermediate cartridge, but with a greater effective range. But Kalashnikov immediately after the war made a successful AK, which closed the topic of assault rifles to this day. Although I see the future of a Soviet automatic machine gun based on the Degtyarevsky MA with various new options for cartridges and calibers. But even with the AK, the Russian army will not lose the war. Now it’s AK-12 in Russia, which I really liked. They chase him again, polish problem areas, and everything will be in openwork. And then, on the basis of MA, it will arrive in time, even more cool under modern conditions of battle.
                1. +1
                  24 February 2019 20: 54
                  Colleagues Whirlwind and erf, you have an interesting dialogue, but poking each other is on the verge of rudeness, and rudeness does not decorate a cultured person.
                  1. 0
                    24 February 2019 23: 31
                    No, there is no need to poke. Then it’s time for some comrades to explain on their fingers what the Soviet Arms School is. And how much she did to save life and freedom on earth.
              2. +4
                24 February 2019 21: 38
                Karbain, dear, hello! Again emerged and again rude to people? Tell me honestly, you have whistled the keys at the head doctor, right? Well, where is Kirali, where is Kirali, without him you somehow are not you. Well, please something else, I'm just frankly trudging from all your pearls. Well, give out something else, please the people. laughing
        2. +1
          24 February 2019 22: 07
          And where is the AK larva at the shutter?
      2. 0
        24 February 2019 19: 32
        Everything can be. But it's like with cartridges 7.63 for 25 Mauser and Lugger 9 para-where is the Mauser right now and where is the lugger? That's right. A lugger is everywhere and a Mauser is in oblivion. Dozens of countries use Kalashnikov and 16 are almost none. What comes of this? That's right. They take the weapons that are more reliable. And who is there and sometime in more than one place with two balls ?
      3. +1
        24 February 2019 22: 04
        On MP-18 and the box store Hugo Schmeiser received patents.
    4. 0
      24 February 2019 17: 40
      turning shutter larvae

      actually turning the entire shutter
  3. +1
    24 February 2019 07: 33
    Submachine gun: yesterday, today, tomorrow. Part 2.

    Sunday morning succeeded!
  4. +12
    24 February 2019 08: 29
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr

    The real ancestor of the Soviet submachine guns WWII. Even visually visible similarities. And history confirms this.

    And where did you find this "story"? request Read, at the same time, other stories, where it is stated that PPD, PPSh were not copied from Suomi! The massive appearance of submachine guns in the troops at the end of the Soviet-Finnish war and the adoption of the PPD-1940 with the 40 magazine on 71 in the year contributed to the birth of the legend that Degtyarev copied A. Lahti’s Suomi system. In the meantime, it is enough just to make an incomplete disassembly of these two samples, which belonged to the same generation of submachine guns, in order to see that the relationship between the RPM and Suomi is very distant (!). But the first drum shop really got from the second one, albeit with alterations "Nashi", if they slammed ... it was just a "drum" shop! Degtyarev began working on his submachine gun in the second half of the 2s, when they hardly "paid attention" to "some kind of Suomi"! If you believe (God forbid! ...), then it can be argued that Shpagin copied his gun from the PPD! And the American M20 is a "copy" of the "device", which we used to call a "schmayser"!
    .
    And from what "copied" the Reising M50-yourself "think up"!
    1. 0
      24 February 2019 19: 35
      Dattoko the near-by can write-PPSh, a close relative of Suomi, there isn’t anything in common there. Even the PPSs have a round box with no cross-section, they write nonsense and they start drooling. They borrowed a tambourine from Toko.
    2. +1
      24 February 2019 21: 09
      Nikolaevich, besides the store, there is a lot of similarity at the trunk.
      Perhaps Degtyarev somewhere saw his appearance and appreciated the trunk, and everything else was his development. I think this is the most reasonable explanation
      1. 0
        25 February 2019 01: 54
        Quote: Astra wild
        besides the store there is a great resemblance to the trunk.
        Perhaps Degtyaryov, somewhere saw the appearance ...

        Hardly ... Since WW1 there are "motives" left ...
        Mr18
        MG08 / 18
        "PPM"
        And just in case: MT25 ...
    3. +2
      24 February 2019 21: 42
      The "Raising" has a loading handle inconveniently located in the forend. I remember in the seventies I saw this machine in the Maritime Museum of Sevastopol, so they did not even know how to call it, they simply wrote: "trophy machine". After a couple of years, however, they improved. hi
  5. +4
    24 February 2019 08: 56
    Suomi, without a stock, is convenient for use in anti-storm embrasures (embrasure of the entrance defense) of the bunker.

  6. +7
    24 February 2019 09: 27

    Option "900 kp 31 psv". Intended for firing through the special embrasures of the Vickers Alt B Type E 6-Ton tanks. Several dozen were released.
    1. +3
      24 February 2019 11: 23
      Cut off in the likeness of PCA, I saw in the pictures of the protection of Saudi princes.
      1. +3
        24 February 2019 21: 49
        Hello my friend! hi The princes have so many things. I was still the devil when in my childhood I saw in the newspaper a photograph of Doc's Daddy Tontons with a very nice PP. And only ten years later it was possible to find out that it was a Beretta model12. The ways of weapons in this world are inscrutable. wink
        1. +1
          24 February 2019 22: 55
          Hello, good man!

          I actually saw pictures of guys in white shirts to their heels and arafatki on Bosko with a trimmed butt of PPSh with a drum magazine.

          With their money they have special show-offs.
          1. +1
            24 February 2019 22: 59
            End of the world! And they didn’t have a golden case with them? And then these guys love to fuck. )))
            1. +1
              24 February 2019 23: 09
              So I was also surprised - why not gold?

              And then it dawned on me!

              They have gold - ammo!

              laughing
              1. +1
                24 February 2019 23: 15
                Mom, dear! Yes, they are all perverts! And why don't they love them in Europe !? laughing
                1. +1
                  25 February 2019 20: 50
                  But they love everyone in Europe, as they want, who they want and where they want ...

                  wassat
                  1. +1
                    25 February 2019 21: 03
                    I’m not an envious person, but still ... good
                    1. 0
                      25 February 2019 22: 20
                      Yes, I am too.

                      These dark-skinned guys with a beard don't interest me.

                      laughing
  7. +4
    24 February 2019 09: 35
    Describing the "strangeness" of using the PP as a light machine gun, it is strange not to mention its predecessor, the Revelli PP, which was originally created in this capacity, taking into account the realities of the First World War. By the way, the story of the drum shop had a continuation.
  8. +7
    24 February 2019 11: 48

    KP / -31, KP / -31 SJR (with compensator), "Korsu-Suomi", "Tank-Suomi" and with SS-II installation, variation of the 1995 model with a silencer
    1. +4
      24 February 2019 15: 48
      Thanks so much for the illustration!
      1. +1
        24 February 2019 21: 50
        Greetings, Vladislav! hi We, by chance, are not familiar with you?
    2. +2
      24 February 2019 19: 36
      Wow, plus me for the photo
  9. +4
    24 February 2019 14: 24
    By the way, the peak of the use of drum stores was just the “winter war”. They were immediately adopted by the Red Army and the Great Patriotic War, our machine gunners met with such large-capacity stores.

    By the way, the disk store was also used on the PPD-38 (PPD-34/38)
    1. +3
      25 February 2019 20: 55
      It was. But each one approached only his own machine gun. Swapping drums and to shoot - did not work.

      Therefore, they say, Stalin personally insisted "to make a disk store, like the Finns." As a result, the PPSh drum is made from this Finnish Suomi. I don’t know how correct this version is. Personally, Stalin did not order me to do this.

      hi
  10. +1
    24 February 2019 18: 03
    It seems that "Suomi" was used in Angola
  11. +1
    24 February 2019 20: 03
    What is Suomi good for? what The fact that the slightest dirt - it will jam! am I am silent about the price - the first model, the mass production technology has not yet been developed bully . Yes, he fought! good He wouldn’t pull a big war - dear, afraid of dirt negative . For the Finns, this is a step in the arms business, but then they only copied Kalash (probably this is reasonable) hi
  12. +1
    24 February 2019 20: 17
    "about 500 copies of" Suomi "were intended to arm bunkers and pillboxes."
    And how they were placed above me when I said: "The ZH-26 with bipod and a magazine for 71 rounds is almost an 'adult machine gun". The Finnish military also seized a light machine gun from Suomi. True, then they realized that a light machine gun would not work from the PP.
    1. +2
      24 February 2019 21: 15
      Our designers also tried to "put" the PP in the tanks! But everything died at the level of experimental models.
      1. +1
        24 February 2019 21: 24
        Our designers also tried to "shove" the PP in the tanks!
        ,,, and perhaps more or source? hi
        1. +2
          25 February 2019 04: 45
          Sergey projects medium tanks A-43 and A-44 and Uralmashev self-propelled guns. From books, I’ll write something as soon as I get home.
          Regards, Vlad!
      2. +2
        25 February 2019 13: 02
        But everything died at the level of experimental models.

        Proposals on the weapons system and organization of armored forces
        25 April 1940 city

        Weapon system and organization of armored forces of the Red Army
        ,, c) For the armament of the personnel of armored troops

        1. In wartime, the entire commanding personnel of tank forces should be armed with pistols of the type “Mauser". For each combat vehicle to have PPD and 15 hand grenades.
  13. 0
    24 February 2019 22: 20
    It would be better if the Finns copied a box magazine with 50 rounds.
  14. +2
    24 February 2019 22: 29
    The Suomi-KP Model 1931 software used 9x19 mm Steam cartridges. The article missed this.
  15. +2
    25 February 2019 10: 56
    I want to add that Suomi 31 software had a tipping moment compensator. The end part of the casing is cut at an angle with respect to the bore. Degtyarev when developing his PPD-34 did not pay attention to this. Repeating the tubular receiver, he simplified everything that is possible.
    1. +2
      25 February 2019 21: 11
      It’s hard to call Degtyarev a brilliant designer, forgive me patriots. hi
      1. 0
        28 February 2019 00: 18
        Come on dear Konstantin, Degtyarev was or wasn’t, but with his weapon our grandfathers won the Great Patriotic War.
        On the other hand, I respect his position when he recognized the victory of Goryunov at the easel machine gun competition in 1943. And personally under Stalin.
        Regards, Vlad!
        I personally like his RPD.
        1. +1
          28 February 2019 01: 12
          Greetings, Vladislav! hi

          That's right, the victory was won and thanks to the weapons created by Degtyarev, but it seems to me that she, the victory, came faster and would be more bloodless if, in his place, there were, say, Grunov with his MG. But that was - that was, but the history of the subjunctive mood does not have.
          And I also like RPDs, only with assembly-disassembly you need to be more careful, otherwise you can also light it up in your own eyes. I had such crap in my time with SVT-40, when I took it apart for the first time, but without instruction and tools, though the rod then flew into the wall and broke the tile. request