Submachine gun: yesterday, today, tomorrow. Part of 1. First-generation submachine guns

90
Why do the stars burn,
Why do the stars burn,
Why do the stars burn?
It is not clear.
Get me a gun
Find me a gun,
Buy me a machine.
And that's that.
Chorus:
Believe me, means known
So that finally everything at once fell into place.
No one will say anything bad, but who decides to say
Immediately and immediately fall.
(“Dear Boy”, 1974, the music by D. Tukhmanov, lyrics by L. Derbeneva)


In the wonderful Soviet movie “Dear Boy”, this is certainly not about the machine gun itself, but about the submachine gun. Moreover, one of the gangsters, the kidnappers of both “dear boys,” is armed with a submachine gun - something similar to the American M3, and from time to time it shoots from it. Fortunately, not in people!



So we’ll really be talking about a submachine gun and ... about its place in the past, present and prospects for the future. And if so, then you need to start from the very beginning. But not from that double-barreled Italian freak, who for some reason is considered the father of all PPs (rather, this is not his own grandfather), but from real, “human appearance” samples with a butt and a magazine adapted for “manual use” and appearing at the very end World War I Well, such a famous author as Christopher Chant will become our “guide” in this diverse world of PP, and even if it’s an “enemy voice,” it’s believed that he is well versed in armory topic. So…


MP-18 with snail shop on the 32 cartridge from the pistol "Parabellum".

In his opinion, even today, after 100 after its birth, the first and truly successful PP is MP-18, and it could well have fought today because it is a classic! Well, the first article about this submachine gun on VO appeared on 13 of March 2013 of the year, so this is really a classic. But what is important to note, and what should be emphasized? Firstly, despite the short barrel (only 200 mm), effective fire could be fired from it at a distance of up to 150 meters, and this was quite enough then. Secondly, the rate of fire in 450 rounds per minute was also convenient for everyone. The following material on VO about MP-18 from 31 on August 2013 of the year dealt with the distrust of the top military leadership of Germany in this type of weapon, as a result of which each type of armed forces chose a submachine gun for itself, which is why he appeared in the army in several samples at once.

But, the MP-18 was not the only contender for the role of "pioneer" of all modern submachine guns. Let us recall, for example, Adolph Furrer’s M1919 submachine gun (BO 24 September 2014) with a pistol “Parabellum” mechanism, which was late for distribution, although only for a year.


Submachine gun "Standschütze Hellriegel".


Standschütze Hellriegel device.

They tried to make a submachine gun in Austria-Hungary. Moreover, even earlier than in Germany. Work on the submachine gun "Standschütze Hellriegel" began here in 1915 year. Moreover, the power was supplied by cartridges from the German drum shop “Trommel” (“Drum”) with a capacity of 160 cartridges. But the flow of ammunition from it into the chamber of the submachine gun passed ... along the flexible chute, which was connected to the receiver of the magazine on the barrel. Since the drum spring could move with difficulty (if at all), the cartridge feed mechanism is not completely clear. But on the other hand, the presence of this “sleeve” gave reason to believe that this submachine gun had band feed, although in reality it was not at all so. We can assume that it was supposed to use domestic 9 × 23 mm Steyr pistol cartridges. But it was, perhaps, his only dignity. The complex feed mechanism, and also water cooling, put a cross on this design. Although in itself it was interesting. For example, the bolt had two guides for two springs, which later, much later, was implemented in the design of many submachine guns.


By the way, in the same Germany they tried to make a submachine gun even on the basis of the same Maxim machine gun! With a handle like a meat grinder handle and with a machine-gun bolt, this ersatz weapon remained a prototype!

But then there were 20 and 30 years. Years of exploration and discoveries, years of preparation for the new war. And ... here we already know that both the German generals and the young Soviet commanders and people's commissars were equally suspicious of such weapons as a submachine gun. Both Bolotin, and Gnatovskiy and Shorin, and the same Shantin, they all say that they were considered then police weapons, but that was exactly the way it was. In Germany, they just went to the police of the Weimar Republic, because the Versailles Treaty of their use in the army was limited. Had to resort to tricks. For example, the German company “Rheinmetall” simply bought the Swiss company “Soloturn” and ... began in neighboring Switzerland to produce the German, in essence, the submachine gun “Steyer-Soloturn” S1-100 in 20-30 of the last century, which was actively supplied to the markets from around the world, including Japan, China and the South American republics. In addition to the 9-mm machine gun pistols, samples were produced for 9-mm cartridge Mauser and 9-mm Steyer. The Chinese, Japanese and South American parties of this weapon were specially ordered for 7,63-mm Mauser cartridges. The Portuguese, in contrast, needed a submachine gun chambered for “Parabellum” 7,65-mm. There were models with a mount for the bayonet, with an attached tripod (!!!) and a mass of spare parts. Moreover, the quality of the manufacture of these weapons was traditionally Swiss. And ... it was enough just to buy one such submachine gun, disassemble, measure all its details and ... make it up for its own production. That is either better (which would be very difficult!), Either at the Swiss level, or ... worse, but its own. The last path was taken, for example, by the Japanese, who released their “100 type”, and the same Englishmen who copied the German MP-28 (almost all the same MP-18, only 1928 of the model year), which had been produced before in Belgium, and in Spain, but in England turned into "Lanchester". True, the store he contained 50, not the cartridge 32, but in principle the changes in it were minimal. K. Shant notes that both the MP-28 and the Lanchester were reliable and generally not a bad weapon, only their production was quite expensive.


"Steyer-Solothurn" S1-100 with all accessories.

Interestingly, 1928 has become a significant year for submachine guns. So, it was this year that the US Navy officially adopted General John Thompson’s “gangster” submachine gun, which he “pushed” into the army from the very end of the First World War, and in the USSR it was this year that the Artillery Committee proposed to accept for pistols and 7,63 × 25 submachine guns mm Mauser cartridge, which largely determined the future of our domestic submachine guns. By the way, for some reason, in many books devoted to the weapon theme, their authors write that in the USSR, machine guns were not given due attention in the pre-war years. But how can this be, if it was in our USSR in 1932 - 1933 that the whole 14 (!) Samples of 7,62-mm submachine guns, including Tokarev, Degtyaryov submachine guns (based on his machine gun DP-27) and Korovin, as well as Prilutsky and Kolesnikov. Where more, and most importantly - which country can boast a large number of prototypes?


Incomplete disassembly of the "Steyer-Solothurn" S1-100.

So, in the 20-30s, the same Germans received submachine guns (except for MP-18) MP-28, MP-34 and MP-35, not too different from each other. The Italian Beretta entered service in the 1934. Thompson M1928, Steyer Solothurn S1-100 (1930 year) in this sense were already almost veterans, just like the Finnish Suomi m / 1931. In the same glorious cohort of the heirs of the MP-18 mid 30-x we see our PPD-34 with a box magazine on the 25 cartridge and copied from the Finnish drum on the 71 cartridge.


"Suomi" m / 1931.

Now let's see what the trend manifested in the design of PP in these years. Well, first of all, the length of the trunk began to grow. The most long-barreled in this plan (up to 1938 of the year) was “Suomi” (314 mm), which allowed him to conduct more accurate fire even at extreme distances of aimed shooting. Then the rate of fire began to grow. In MP-18, it was 350 / 450 rounds per minute, but in MP-28 it grew to 650, in Beretta and Lanchester it was already 600, 700 in Thompson, in PPD-34 and “Type 100” No - 800 and Suomi's 900 shots per minute! Shooting switches appeared, which now allowed firing both single fire and bursts, and the same “Suomi” in addition also had a box-shaped two-row magazine on 50 cartridges placed in it in two sections with alternate feed. That is, it is obvious that the density of fire at this time began to be considered more important than accuracy, since at close range it is precisely this indicator that is the most important for a submachine gun.


PPD-34 with magazine for 25 cartridges.


PPD-34 with magazine on 71 cartridge.

The last of the “veterans” of 30’s, namely 1938 of the year, which also became a landmark in stories submachine guns, became the Czechoslovak ZK383. He was distinguished from all other samples by the presence of a folding bipod that retracts folded up in the forearm, a return spring in the ... butt, and an original device that shows the “direction of flight of thought” of the designers of that time - a removable weight weight for the bolt, 170 g I put the weight on - and the submachine gun makes 500 shots per minute, removed - the shutter became lighter, and the firing rate increased to 700 shots! They even equipped it with a quick-change barrel mechanism. That is, as you wish, and use! In addition to Czechoslovakia, the ZK383 (for the needs of the police, the model “P” was released without a bipod) entered into service with the Bulgarian army, where, like the Lanchester in the British Navy, it was operated until the 60 of the last century. They also entered the service of Brazil and Venezuela, but the parties were small. But when the Second World War began, these PP under the brand name vz 9 went to the armament of the troops ... SS, who fought on the Eastern Front! The SS found him to be quite good, albeit a bit heavy. But they fought with him throughout the war. True, the concept of "heavy" is very relative, considering that the equipped PPD-34 weighed 5,69 kg, "Suomi" 7,04 kg (with a drum shop), and ZK383 - 4,83 kg.


Czechoslovak ZK383 "on legs".

But it was the last submachine gun, made in the "old tradition" and belonging to the first generation of submachine guns. In the same 1938 year, a completely new sample of a submachine gun appeared in the same Germany, and with it in the history of PP a new page was opened ...

To be continued ...
90 comments
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  1. +9
    22 February 2019 15: 20
    Thank you, a great article for PP lovers.
  2. +1
    22 February 2019 15: 23
    And why didn’t they mention the first Russian Fedorov assault rifle? He also managed to participate in the 1st World War as the German MP-18.
    1. +2
      22 February 2019 16: 01
      That's right, Boris. It was necessary to write about Fedorov’s machine, somehow it’s not a complete review. If memory serves, then the samples were created before 1917, participated in the First World War, and later mass production was organized in Kovrov in 19-24.
      1. +14
        22 February 2019 16: 11
        We are talking about submachine guns!
        1. 0
          22 February 2019 17: 11
          Vyacheslav, of course, I am familiar with this classification based on the type of cartridge and with the terms in accordance with GOST 28653-90. But, actually, this classification is still controversial. There are many opinions. The difference in the operation of weapon automation is, nevertheless, more substantial. I’m saying that, as you well know, in automatic devices, the shutter recovers, and in automatic machines, the work is done by venting gases.
          By the way, I met information that Fedorov called his weapon a "machine gun". And the automation in his system is based on the use of recoil with a short stroke of the barrel with a bolt carrier retreat accelerator.
          Maybe write a review about the first samples of automatic weapons without dividing into these types? And there will be more material, and it is more interesting to compare the capabilities of the samples.
          1. +2
            22 February 2019 17: 55
            The difference in the operation of weapon automation is, nevertheless, more substantial. I’m saying that, as you well know, in automatic devices the shutter recoil, and in automatic machines, the work is done by venting gases.

            And where then to record automatic machines, software and machine guns based on automation with a half-free shutter?
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. 0
            22 February 2019 19: 13
            Quote: Reserve officer
            The difference in the operation of weapon automation is, nevertheless, more substantial. I’m saying that, as you well know, in automatic devices the shutter recoil, and in automatic machines, the work is done by venting gases.

            The SETME assault rifle (or, in our opinion, the assault rifle) and its descendant G-3 use a half-free bolt.
            Quote: Reserve officer
            By the way, I met information that Fedorov called his weapon a "machine gun".

            This is exactly what the Fedorov automatic rifle was originally called. The name "automatic" was proposed later by N.M. Filatov. V.G. Fedorov was generally considered as an alternative to a light machine gun. During WWI, there was an acute shortage of light machine guns in the Russian army. To make up for this shortage, Fedorov proposed to remake his rifle for automatic fire, which was done in 1916.
          4. The comment was deleted.
          5. 0
            23 February 2019 14: 23
            Quote: Reserve officer
            at automatic equipment at the expense of recoil of a lock, and at automatic machines work is due to exhaust of gases
            The recoil of the shutter is present in all types of automatic weapons (correct if you are not aware of something).
            Giving away free Shutter - Only for models with a heavy shutter or weak cartridge.
            We, it seems, do not have a control gear with an engaged shutter, but the same Kalashnikov submachine gun was with a shutter-release device, the Steyr TMP has an interlocked (with a barrel) shutter.
            PCBs with an engaged shutter or a retarder have less weight than those with a free shutter.
            Well, there are almost automatic machines with a free shutter.
          6. 0
            4 March 2019 07: 53
            Quote: Reserve officer
            Maybe write a review about the first samples of automatic weapons without dividing into these types? And there will be more material, and it is more interesting to compare the capabilities of the samples.

            really a lot of opinions. but division into types according to the principle of a cartridge is better left. the same Fedorov assault rifle is essentially an automatic rifle and is closer not to the PP but to the light machine gun.
    2. +3
      22 February 2019 18: 23
      we read carefully the title of the article - Submachine gun: yesterday, today, tomorrow. Part 1. First-generation submachine guns
    3. 0
      23 February 2019 06: 39
      Fedorov’s rifle is nevertheless closer to an automatic rifle.
      1. 0
        25 February 2019 20: 59
        Not closer, but this is a rifle, or, if you wish, an automatic carbine as applied to the production model.
  3. +5
    22 February 2019 15: 31
    Vyacheslav, one could also mention Kiraly with his folding magazine and 9-mm "long" Mauser cartridge.
    Although he, yes - M-39 ...
    So, I hope, will be continued.
  4. +4
    22 February 2019 15: 42
    MR-38 is yes ...
    Such a long row of twin brothers with wooden boxes, punchcases and shops from the left (rarely from the right) side.
    And then - "Erma"! It's like plywood and rag biplanes, and immediately the jet MiG-15.
    The Germans were able! Loved, wanted. They knew a lot!
    P-08, P-38, MP-38/40, Sturmgever and both MG.
    Legend!
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. 0
        22 February 2019 19: 26
        Users, in modern terms, probably thought of these devices, if they read the memoirs of both sides, and think differently. I do not know the opinion of the users of Sturmgever ("who died in the 70s"), who are fighting him in Syria live, but among the many newsreels he can be seen more than once among the soldiers of the Red Army.
        In general, it is not clear where such an opinion is that MG is an easel machine gun ... His profile is called differently.
        And it is good that such an opinion about these samples, the effectiveness of which has been proven by more than one or two wars, is just your personal opinion.
        hi
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +5
        22 February 2019 19: 28
        Quote: feb-fri
        Sturmgever - UG left an inheritance in the form of AK-47, which, like any non-viable product, died in the early 70s.

        And you go too. It has been said hundreds of times that the AK is not a "legacy" of the ShG-44.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. +1
          23 February 2019 09: 22
          I do not agree. Just - is. Of course, not in the constructive sense - a way of locking and generally the internal structure.
          The priority in creating a new class - an assault rifle (or an assault rifle according to our classification) under a cartridge of reduced power, just belongs to the Germans. And this, as our military understood in time, is the right way. So we followed this right path, capturing AK as a result.
      3. +3
        22 February 2019 21: 02
        MG-34 and VG-42 belong to the class of single machine guns. And here the Germans became "trendsetters". They used the bipod in the first world for the VG-08 and nothing more.
        Happy open day, buddy! laughing
  5. +4
    22 February 2019 15: 50
    But it is true ... in what "qualification categories" does this or that "device" fall, if "judged" by any one (even two ...) "parameters"! So Spark Revelli hit the submachine guns, based on a pistol cartridge! Tady and the "experimental" LAD light machine gun (model 1942-43) should be included in the submachine guns on the same basis! Or in the USA they "hooligans": they tried to make a "submachine gun" using 5,56 x 45 mm "rifle" cartridges ...
    1. +5
      22 February 2019 16: 13
      Yes, Vladimir. You see, why not turn on the machine Fedorov ... But because the machine. The cartridge is not the same.
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. The comment was deleted.
    1. +9
      22 February 2019 16: 52
      Quote: inyan
      By the way, for some reason, in many books devoted to the weapons topic, their authors write that in the USSR submachine guns were not given due attention in the pre-war years. But how can this be, if it was here in the USSR in 1932 - 1933 that 14,!) Models of 7,62 mm submachine guns were developed, embodied in metal and tested, including Tokarev and Degtyarev submachine guns ( based on his machine gun DP-27) and Korovin, as well as Prilutsky and Kolesnikov. Much more, and most importantly, which country can boast a large number of prototypes?

      There is a famous parable about an assiduous fool and his forehead. This is just the case.
      Just the Chinese, Japanese and South American parties of these weapons were specially ordered under the Mauser cartridges of 7,63 mm. The Portuguese, on the contrary, needed a submachine gun chambered for 7,65 mm Parabellum.

      Exactly. All are just cool "experts" of the level of the Soviet parish.
      Smart people made PPs in 9 mm caliber. The smartest, in .45 caliber. And those that are simpler are "in a caliber with a flat trajectory."
      And ... it was enough just to buy one such submachine gun, disassemble, measure all its parts and ... make it into your own production.

      Nothing will work.
      You need to know the composition of the metal, as well as the technology of its processing.
      It is only teapots who think that a weapon is "made" by drawing its mechanism on a piece of paper.
      That is why the three-ruler is called the Nagan-Mosin rifle. Because without the barrel of Nagan (bought for a lot of money) it would be just rubbish. Not even CBT or ABT, because there, too, Nagan’s barrel technologies were applied (three-line).

      Comrades, our beloved clown appeared again, carbine Zeus, and I still can’t remember him! All newcomers are advised not to engage in discussions with him. It is useless stubborn as I don’t know what, just ignore it!
      1. +5
        22 February 2019 18: 01
        But with his thesis "It is only teapots who think that a weapon is" made "by drawing its mechanism on a piece of paper." it's hard to disagree.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +5
            22 February 2019 21: 33
            "ALMOST EVERYTHING" - I love it! Napoleon, Einstein and Sklifasovsky in one bottle (chamber), brilliant! And finally, you remembered your unforgettable Kiraly, and already began to fear that this time you will manage without him. No, here-as-there, they did not disappoint expectations, for which thanks. hi
      2. +5
        22 February 2019 21: 11
        Misha, hi! Also learned. I already talked, it gives me incredible pleasure. Although I'm not a sadist at all. smile

        With the coming of you, and all of our Voshny people. Good luck, health and happiness! drinks
      3. +1
        23 February 2019 06: 18
        Quote: burigaz2010
        All newcomers are advised not to engage in discussions with him. It is useless stubborn as I don’t know what, just ignore it!
        How did it happen? Experts understand that it is impossible to feed a troll, but on the other hand, untouched false information, in immature minds, can become "truth".
    2. +10
      22 February 2019 17: 05
      Quote: inyan
      Because without the barrel of Nagant (bought for a lot of money)

      Yes, there was no barrel Nagan for a lot of money. For the sample was taken from the barrel rifle Lebel. From Nagan there was quite another. This was written on BO many times with photocopies of his personal letters.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +7
          22 February 2019 18: 35
          Go to the archives of the Military Historical Museum of Artillery, Engineers and Communication Forces in St. Petersburg. There are all the documents. Both in Russian and in French ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. +7
            22 February 2019 21: 37
            Good evening, Vyacheslav! hi
            I doubt he knows French. request
            Happy and thank you for raising the topic. drinks
      2. +8
        22 February 2019 17: 55
        Comrade Shpakovsky just ignore this character, arguing with him is useless !!! And yes, all members of the forum with the upcoming 23 !!!
    3. +6
      22 February 2019 19: 37
      Quote: inyan
      the three-ruler is called the Nagan-Mosin rifle. Because without the barrel of Nagan (bought for a lot of money) it would be just rubbish

      Do not fantasize. Nobody bought a barrel from Nagan. Russia had the technology of manufacturing rifled barrels since the adoption of the Berdan rifle. And the Mosin-Nagan rifle is named for the fact that it uses its magazine supply mechanism for cartridges.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    4. 0
      23 February 2019 07: 03
      Quote: inyan
      Smart people made PP in 9 mm caliber. The smartest, in caliber .45
      Why is .45 better than 7,62x25? The cartridge is heavy, but stupid.
      Now no army and police are armed with a .45-based cartridge. However, almost all refused 7,62x25. But for PP, the latter is preferable to 9x19 and .45: both range and flatness are higher, and the flesh vomits no worse.

      Quote: inyan
      You need to know the composition of the metal, as well as the technology of its processing.
      After years of starting rifled rifles?

      Quote: inyan
      That is why the three-ruler is called the Nagan-Mosin rifle.
      Aha! As true as claiming that the AK is licked off the StG.
      Quote: westa
      Mandatory are 3 factors:
      1. Profile education.
      2. Work experience.
      3. Talent.
      Glock thought for a moment. However, he did not invent anything new.

      Quote: westa
      AK-47, this weapon is exactly the same class as the StG44. There are differences in design, but the class of weapons is the same.
      Is this an attempt to somehow appoint AK as the heir to StG? That's bullshit! The work of the StG automatics, one might say, was "lapped" with the SVT, the work of the AK automatics - from the Mondragon rifle (greatly simplifying it), and Fedorov outlined the concept. So everything is by you!
      1. +1
        23 February 2019 13: 53
        Why is .45 better than 7,62x25? The cartridge is heavy, but stupid.


        Besides the stupidity, .45 ACP is also expensive. For wartime - a very bad cartridge. They rejected 7,62x25 all over the world, primarily because the USSR itself refused. Why 7,62x25 when there is 7,62x39?

        Kalash received with enthusiasm throughout the world. Cheap and cheerful. Very cheap and scribe, how angry.
        1. 0
          23 February 2019 14: 09
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Besides the stupidity, .45 ACP is also expensive.
          Omitting "expensive" - ​​the richest country in the world could push it to its satellites and it would be cheap. But not destiny: it is slow, heavy and very "fat", and only Russia can afford to have different cartridges for PP and KS wassat

          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          They rejected 7,62x25 all over the world, primarily because the USSR itself refused.
          Perhaps in vain.
          It was possible to make a monster under 10 mm, and not laugh in the form of 9x18, and we would have gotten ourselves a modern cartridge. But then it would be a cartridge ahead of time. 40 years.

          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Why 7,62x25 when there is 7,62x39?
          7,62x25, nevertheless, is weaker than 7,62x39. However, according to the parameters, the AKS-74U was a submachine gun, but for the 7,62x25 software it was almost ideal for some time, and even at the time of the appearance of the AKS-74U it was simply perfect: the weapon could be made much easier and simpler.
          1. +1
            23 February 2019 14: 24
            and he would become cheap.


            For objective reasons - I would not. From that amount of materials, almost two parabellums can be infused.
          2. 0
            23 February 2019 14: 27
            It was possible to make a monster under 10 mm


            After the appearance of Kalash in the USSR, they generally considered the new class of PP to be unnecessary. Considering the gigantic amount of PPSh / PPS in mobile warehouses.
            1. 0
              23 February 2019 14: 50
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              After the appearance of Kalash in the USSR, they generally considered the new class of PP to be unnecessary.
              ... and therefore the freak AKS 74U appeared.
              I meant the pistol cartridge in general. Instead of a stub 9x18
          3. +1
            23 February 2019 14: 29
            weapons could be made much easier and simpler.


            Understanding things always comes belatedly and with time.
            1. 0
              23 February 2019 14: 39
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              Understanding things always comes belatedly and with time.
              Kalashnikov made his PP quite a long time ago. Quite a working sample. Along the way, the "joke" with the dimensions and weight was not understood.
              PP could be "packed" in 2 kg.
              1. 0
                24 February 2019 04: 36
                Quote: Simargl
                Kalashnikov made his PP quite a long time ago. Quite a working sample. Along the way, the "joke" with the dimensions and weight was not understood.
                PP could be "packed" in 2 kg.

                Kalashnikov PP was not adopted anywhere in the USSR. Submachine guns Degtyarev, Shpagin, Sudaev stood before the adoption of the Kalashnikov assault rifle. A submachine gun is the simplest automatic weapon and can be made even without special education in artisanal conditions. PCA during the war years was done almost in garages. Even prisoners in prison, possessing metalwork tools and metal skills, were able to clandestinely manufacture submachine guns. And serial models of submachine guns can be less than 2 kg in weight. The submachine gun of Gryazev and Shipunov - the famous Soviet designers-creators of aircraft guns, where each gram is worth its weight in gold, created the famous PP2000, weight - 1,4 kg.
                1. 0
                  24 February 2019 08: 42
                  Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                  Kalashnikov PP was not adopted anywhere in the USSR.
                  Kalashnikov software was manufactured, tested and evaluated. Those. the possibilities were known.

                  Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                  Submachine gun - the simplest automatic weapon
                  If you do not put a certain framework - yes. If you restrict the designer in terms of manufacturability and weight, problems arise.

                  Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                  And serial models of submachine guns can be less than 2 kg in weight.
                  Not serial, but modern.
                  Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                  famous PP2000
                  Is it possible to compare it with PP, in which the barrel is "full-size" (250-300 mm), which allows you to squeeze the maximum out of the cartridge? Nevertheless, to reduce the mass, the bolt must either be slowed down or locked to the barrel (I think so), otherwise either the bolt speed will be low or the sleeve will tear. The easiest option for PP, I think, is a larva, like in P38.
                  1. 0
                    24 February 2019 13: 03
                    Quote: Simargl
                    Not serial, but modern.

                    PP-2000 serial submachine gun. Using the PP-2000 as an example, I brought a submachine gun weighing 1,4 kg. Produced after 2000. Smaller and lighter automatic weapons produced in the world under this cartridge are already called automatic pistols and do not have a butt, are effective at even shorter pistol distances, as a rule, under a powerful pistol cartridge they already have a locking with a movable (lowering, swivel) barrel like in self-loading pistols. And submachine guns have now reached the "bar" - 1,4 kg with a butt.
                    Quote: Simargl
                    Is it possible to compare it with PP, in which the barrel is "full-size" (250-300 mm), which allows you to squeeze the maximum out of the cartridge?

                    This is a submachine gun. The trunks of 250-300 mm under the pistol cartridge will still be inferior to the Kalashnikov assault rifle and automatic rifles in effective and sighting ranges. Therefore, submachine guns were supplanted by machine guns and automatic rifles in the developed armies of the world around the middle of the 20th century, in the less developed armies a little later. The PP-2000 has an effective range of up to 100 m, sighting up to 200 m, with a minimum weight and dimensions of weapons achieved for ease of wearing, there are no protruding parts when worn. The larger one is already a Kalashnikov assault rifle. Smaller and lighter examples of modern small arms are already pistols. The pistol of the construction of Gryazev and Shipunov GS-18 is also the lightest pistol for a modern cartridge that has passed military acceptance - 470 grams without a magazine with cartridges. But the design of GS-18 was never brought to mind. There were complaints of low-quality descent and the store. Although the gun is very accurate. With such a small mass under a powerful pistol cartridge, the recoil of the weapon will be very sensitive. But the small mass of weapons will appeal to those who have to constantly drag weapons on themselves. And GSh-18, unlike Glock and similar Western pistols, passed military acceptance, where the requirements for weapons are the most severe.
                    1. 0
                      24 February 2019 19: 57
                      Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                      Using the example of PP-2000, I brought a 1,4 kg submachine gun.
                      The cartridge is weak, the barrel is short. Therefore, the shutter is free. This does not affect the sleeve very well. Am I right or not - only weapon operators can say.

                      Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                      The trunks of 250-300 mm under the pistol cartridge will still be inferior to the Kalashnikov assault rifle and automatic rifles in effective and sighting ranges.
                      We read the above and compare ...
                      Quote: Simargl
                      The AKS-74U, in terms of parameters, was a submachine gun, but for PP 7,62x25 it was almost ideal for some time, and even at the time of the appearance of the AKS-74U it was simply perfect: the weapon could be made much easier and simpler.


                      Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                      Using the example of PP-2000, I brought a 1,4 kg submachine gun.

                      From brechopedia, the speed of a bullet from AKS-74U is 735 m / s.
                      From the brechopedia, the speed of a bullet from the AK-74 is 910 m / s.
                      The difference in bullet energy is 1,55 times.
                      The energy of the bullet for the AK-74 is about 1143-1528 J (from the Brechopedia).
                      I could be wrong, but the energy of the bullet from the AKS-74U, it turns out, is 746-997, i.e. the lower bar is comparable to 7,62x25, and in general to 10 mm Auto. We can conclude that the AKS-74U, in fact, occupies a software niche.
                      In my opinion, instead of blocking 9x18, it was necessary to make a cartridge with a cylindrical sleeve from 7,62x25. It would be something like 9x21 (not 9x21 IMI) or .40 S&W.

                      Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                      Therefore, submachine guns were supplanted by machine guns and automatic rifles
                      The PP has its own niche - they are for those who have the main tool for exterminating the enemy - not a machine gun / rifle, but something more technological and / or powerful: aviation, artillery, tanks, communications, air defense, etc.

                      Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                      But the design of GS-18 was never brought to mind. There were complaints of low-quality descent and the store.
                      When it was? Even the Viking was polished - normal, it seems, became.
                      And so - I would like to try, so as not to dissuade ... while not a single pistol under 9x19 was impressed. True, a quick fire did not try ...
                      1. 0
                        24 February 2019 20: 48
                        Quote: Simargl
                        The PP has its own niche - they are for those who have the main tool for exterminating the enemy - not a machine gun / rifle, but something more technological and / or powerful: aviation, artillery, tanks, communications, air defense, etc.

                        PP-2000 and made for its niche. He clearly agreed on the scope based on his combat characteristics and design. This is an analogue of modern western PDW. And there is a special cartridge for it. By design, the PP-2000 is a submachine gun. Lighter - already automatic pistols. Heavier and more long-range - machine guns and automatic rifles. Ksenia is a shortened Kalashnikov assault rifle. She and the barrel is poorly cooled. But where the unification of weapons for various purposes is needed, Ksenia is justified.
                        Quote: Simargl
                        When it was? Even the Viking was polished - normal, it seems, became.
                        And so - I would like to try, so as not to dissuade ... while not a single pistol under 9x19 was impressed. True, a quick fire did not try ...

                        With GSH-18 we got into a puddle. Although no one let out a lighter combat pistol. Any glocks have not passed the Russian military acceptance. I, too, easily tolerate the recoil of weapons, even artisanal pistols exploded in my hands when I poured too much gunpowder - nothing happened to me, except for shrapnel wounds and bruises. I even hit the target, and behind the target I hit a few more "targets" right through. And so, from childhood and from all kinds of sports, and from combat, and from the 12th hunting caliber, I fired without problems. This is from school. I do not feel the recoil of the AK 5,45 mm very well from the small car. But there are less physically gifted people to whom the 12th hunting caliber already seems overly powerful in terms of recoil. And I saw the girls with my own eyes, who even dropped a small pistol when firing. The small pistol has recoil, unlike the small rifle.
                      2. 0
                        25 February 2019 09: 58
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        This is an analogue of modern western PDW.
                        What am I talking about?
                        Quote: Simargl
                        they are for those who have the main tool for exterminating the enemy - not a machine gun / rifle, but something more technological and / or powerful: aviation, artillery, tanks, communications, air defense, etc.

                        Quote: brechopedia writes
                        Personal Self-Defense Weapons (English personal defense weapon, PDW) - a term used in Western countries to designate light and compact weapons intended for arming military personnel of the so-called “second line” (crews of military vehicles, artillery calculations and others) who are not supposed to use “full-sized” weapons by their nature of service, but which can you need more firepower than pistols can provide.

                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        But where the unification of weapons for various purposes is needed, Ksenia is justified.
                        It just so happened that the fighters of the "second line" do not carry a full-size AK from their hands, and "Ksenia" is a stub of a full-size AK: the same is not comfortable and heavy, but with the capabilities of the PP - nothing more. On the other hand, where PDW is needed, there are only pistols around, i.e. if you carry shells, carry pistol cartridges too ...

                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        With GS-18 sat in a puddle.
                        Perhaps because he is drummer ...
                      3. 0
                        25 February 2019 12: 53
                        Quote: Simargl
                        On the other hand, where PDW is needed - there are only pistols around, i.e. carry shells - carry and pistol cartridges ...

                        The Germans and Belgians in general invented special calibers for such weapons - 4,6 × 30 mm and 5,7 × 28 mm. There are other developments of similar calibers, but these are the most famous thanks to aggressive advertising in the Western media. 4,6 mm is not suitable for the military, because problems with the barrel begin when water from such a small caliber gets there, and 5,7 mm is already normal - the 22nd caliber has long taken root in the armies of the world. The advantage of these 2 rounds is that they are much lighter than the 9x19 mm Parabellum cartridge, although with a higher cartridge price and a lower barrel life, and with a small mass of weapons, we also have a small mass of standard portable ammunition. Now there are active experiments with composite sleeves. When they bring the technology to mind, we will get even lighter cartridges by reducing the mass of the cartridge case. More ammo - you can shoot longer. But the ability to hit the target with aimed fire and saving cartridges for a fighter is still more important. Therefore, the fighter needs to shoot a lot at the training ground and at the shooting range. So that it doesn’t turn out that the gunsmiths developed the best weapons and cartridges for the soldiers, but they came out so expensive and so few that the soldiers began to shoot less. And then the war, and homing endless rounds have not yet been invented.
                      4. 0
                        25 February 2019 20: 00
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        The Germans and Belgians in general invented special calibers for such weapons - 4,6 × 30 mm and 5,7 × 28 mm
                        The adoption of 9x18 dates back to the time when the industry of the USSR was not quite ready for high pressure in the barrel. More caliber - lower pressure.
                        At 5,7 × 28 mm, the "chip" is a unfolding bullet: it pierced the body armor and skin, and then - like a knife.

                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        Now there are active experiments with composite sleeves.
                        Already there were composite, aluminum, combustible (sleeveless) sleeves, even liquid two-component ....

                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        The advantage of these 2 cartridges is that they are much lighter than the 9x19 mm Parabellum cartridge
                        Not much. Maximum 20%.
                      5. 0
                        25 February 2019 23: 00
                        Quote: Simargl
                        At 5,7 × 28 mm, the "chip" is a unfolding bullet: it pierced the body armor and skin, and then - like a knife.

                        5,7x28 mm cartridges are available in several standard types with different bullets, including armor-piercing, expansive with increased stopping power, subsonic and high-precision. The range of bullets for a cartridge can change over time. This cartridge is in fact a shortened and weakened version of the 5,56x45 NATO cartridge (.223 Rem) - this is to avoid the next tales and legends about its properties. The 5,7x28 mm cartridge weighs 7 grams and takes up less volume during transportation and storage - the standard pack of 50 rounds is small. The cartridge 9x19 mm 7H31 (for PP-2000) weighs 8,2 grams. 100 rounds of 5,7x28 mm will weigh 120 grams less than 100 rounds of 7H31, and at the same time take up less volume - this is what the developers of this cartridge are pushing for, in addition to its ballistic characteristics.
                      6. 0
                        25 February 2019 23: 11
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        This cartridge is in fact a shortened and weakened version of the 5,56x45 NATO cartridge (.223 Rem) - this is to avoid the next tales and legends about its properties.
                        Yeah! Changed the sleeve, capsule, gunpowder, bullet ... and so - yes: the same .223 Rem what
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        100 rounds of 5,7x28 mm will weigh 120 grams less than 100 rounds of 7H31, and at the same time take up less volume - this is what the developers of this cartridge are pushing for, in addition to its ballistic characteristics.
                        I guessed it: 20% (more precisely - 17%).
                        I am for 9x21 with an energy of 650-800J (in fact, it is weaker).
                      7. 0
                        25 February 2019 23: 31
                        120 grams is an extra 17 rounds per hundred rounds by weight. The recoil of weapons under this cartridge is several times less than that of the standard 9x19 mm. But the barrel wears out faster and the cartridges, like the weapon itself, are now expensive. My friend from 45 gauge switched to 9 mm. The pair is precisely due to the fact that he shoots a lot in the dash, and 9mm cartridges are cheaper than the 45th caliber. He is not poor, but even he can feel it on a budget. In terms of slaughter, now 9 mm. The pair is very advanced and the 45th is already not really needed. Shoots now from Browning, and earlier shot from the 1911th company Sig (also developed by Browning) - very pleased.
                      8. 0
                        26 February 2019 02: 23
                        Quote: Simargl
                        Yeah! Changed the sleeve, capsule, gunpowder, bullet ... and so - yes: the same .223 Rem

                        The caliber is the same, only the cartridge is less powerful - is that more understandable? winked 5,7x28 mm is a shortened version of .223 Rem. As the cartridge 7,62 mm TT was a shortened version of the cartridge 7.62x53R from Mosinki - the caliber is also the same and the technological line and the tool for the production of barrels are one. Even defective barrels for Mosinki were cut off and used for weapons chambered for 7,62 mm TT in the factory, so that metal and time for manufacturing could be saved. There is nothing new under the sun. Or do you not know that when they take weapons to a new caliber, they also consider money in the treasury? The Americans also believe, because such cartridges are produced by billions - and this is very much and expensive. Good weapon steel is also produced in limited quantities - not every crude steel goes to the barrels. In the event of war, arms factories in the United States and Europe will be overloaded and any savings in time and resources in the production of weapons will pay off handsomely. Although the cartridge was invented in Belgium, Belgium is in NATO, and NATO is a single unit for the participating countries. In the American army in service with German, Italian, Belgian weapons, English - this is fluent from memory.
  8. +1
    22 February 2019 16: 34
    Colleagues, I have always believed that the PP appeared on the eve of WWII. I read somewhere that the PP differs from a conventional machine gun in its compactness and pistol cartridge. And with a bipod and a magazine for 7..1 it is quite an "adult machine gun".
    1. +3
      22 February 2019 21: 40
      Good evening lady! love

      This is not an "adult machine gun", therefore it is called a submachine gun. Yes, you yourself have already answered your question. hi
    2. 0
      23 February 2019 18: 35

      Villar-Perosa is a 9mm Italian twin aircraft submachine gun. The weapon was developed in 1914 by the major of the Italian army, Bethel Abiel Revelli. It was used by the Italian army and air force during the First World War.


      In 1915, the new system was turned into a kind of ultralight light machine gun, making it the world's first submachine gun. Villar-Perosa installations on aircraft, automobiles, motorcycles, bicycles (on the steering frame), etc. are known. This submachine gun was also used to a limited extent in the Austrian army, in the caliber 9 mm Steyr.
    3. 0
      23 February 2019 18: 57

      WikiWiki -
      Tokarev submachine gun, original name - Tokarev light carbine - created in 1927, an experimental model of automatic weapons under the modified revolver cartridge Nagan, the first of the Soviet submachine guns developed. It was not accepted into service, was released by a small experimental batch, and was used to a limited extent in the Great Patriotic War.
      Although Tokarev’s PP was not officially adopted, a significant number of copies of this weapon were produced — according to various sources, from 300 to 600, that is, it is quite comparable with the scale of PPD production at the initial stage of development in production; It was also released a fairly large number of rounds for him. Part of the submachine guns fell into the troops. Even cases of their application during the years of World War II are known (in January 1942 on the Kalinin Front).


      It was created under the cartridge for the revolver "Nagant". The only cartridge for short-barreled weapons produced in the USSR at that time.
      Due to the specific design of the cartridge (the bullet is recessed into the sleeve), the designer had to apply all his knowledge. But the task was completed and the FIRST SOVIET PP was made!
      But he was not accepted into service! The use of a revolving cartridge led to unstable operation of the PP.
      And it was decided to design all subsequent samples of domestic PP under the cartridge 7,62x25, the production of which was begun in the Soviet Union.
      1. 0
        23 February 2019 19: 41
        In these products, the brains of designers continued to copy known patterns. At Tokarev, a three-ruler peeps out of his PP, as car designers peered at the dawn of motorists at the dawn of motorists with a coachman.
        1. 0
          24 February 2019 10: 16
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Tokareva from his PP peeps three-ruler
          I'm afraid to ask: the mainspring from her? Or shutter? Or a store? Or USM? Or a trunk? Or ... what ?!
  9. +2
    22 February 2019 16: 38
    Thank! Very interesting, I will wait to continue. good
  10. +6
    22 February 2019 17: 08
    Nevertheless, the description of any type of weapon should begin with a clear definition of this very weapon in order to eliminate the confusion, which is already visible in the comments demanding the Fedorov assault rifle "in the studio".
    Therefore, it was obviously worth pointing out that an automatic machine and a pistol - a machine gun - are different types of weapons and at least set general criteria for determining a pistol - a machine gun, suppose an automatic weapon with the possibility of continuous fire with pistol cartridges, but which, by its weight and size characteristics, do not fall into category automatic pistols.
    Then, with a clear conscience, you can leave "overboard" the first attempts to create on the basis of pistols something "like" PP - Repetierpistole M1912 / P16, Mauser C96 and Luger P-08 and go on to what the author calls a weapon "real," human-like "samples with a stock and a magazine, adapted for" hand use ".
    True, the author somehow crumpled the first decade of the development of this type of weapon. Indeed, in the same 1918, the Italians corrected themselves and instead of the "freak" Villar-Perosa created a completely normal Beretta Model 1918.

    There is even information that the Beretta Model 1918 "went into battle" even earlier than the MP-18.
    1. +5
      22 February 2019 17: 12
      By the way, at the end of the war, the "freaks" who remained in the warehouses were also converted into fully combat-ready Villar-Perosa OVP M1918, who fought in Ethiopia and even in North Africa during World War II.
      1. +4
        22 February 2019 17: 21
        The French, who managed to capture the German MP-18 as trophies, did not stand aside.

        Submachine gun STA 1922 / MAS M 1924.
        1. +3
          22 February 2019 17: 43
          For example, the German company Rheinmetall simply bought the Swiss company Soloturn and ... began to produce in Germany neighboring Switzerland, in fact, the Steyer-Soloturn S1-100 submachine gun
          Rheinmetall acquired Waffenfabrik Solothurn AG in order to produce its Rheinmetall-Borsig MP19 under the Steyr-Solothurn S1-100 brand as early as 1929.
          And the company SIG its SIG Model 1920 (in fact - Bergmann / Schmeisser MP.18 / I) launched on the market in 1920. SIG Model 1920 submachine guns were mainly exported to Finland (in caliber 7.65x22 Luger), Japan and China (in caliber 7.63x25 Mauser). In 1930, the SIG M1920 model was released on the basis of the SIG M1930 submachine gun, which was distinguished mainly by moving the magazine to the right side of the weapon (so that the shooter in the heat of battle did not grab the long magazine with his left hand and did not warp it, causing delays in firing), and also by adding a vertical handle under the fore-end.
          1. +4
            22 February 2019 17: 54
            In the early thirties, SIG developed the SIGMKMS submachine gun.

            Unlike the vast majority of submachine guns, SIGMKMS had an original automation scheme with a half-free shutter.
        2. +2
          22 February 2019 18: 25
          That did not have time ... did not have time ...
    2. +3
      22 February 2019 21: 47
      Right, Victor. In our museum was the only sample of this software, though without a store. I remember I was still very surprised by the back plate of the receiver, the massive, cast brass part. And on it there were devices for mounting this weapon in an armored tower, and I read somewhere that the Italians planned it for the crews of the armored cars, and not for the trench infantry. hi
  11. +6
    22 February 2019 18: 05
    The following material on the VO of the MP-18 from 31 August 2013, was about the distrust of the highest military leadership of Germany to this type of weapon

    Somehow it doesn’t fit in with the statement (not mine) that MP-18 was purposefully developed with the aim of arming the assault groups (assault groups) on the direct instructions of Herr Ludendorff.
    1. +3
      22 February 2019 21: 07
      Hello Andrey. You have not been seen for a long time. The fact that in 1915, by decision of the Gewehr-Prüfungskommission MP-18 was created for combat operations in the trenches of the Germans. But it is doubtful whether this was personally the idea of ​​Ludendorff, who until August 1916 was on the Eastern Front, he became Quartermaster General in August 1916, when the MR-18 was already being developed for a year.
      The possibility of 1916, he accelerated the process.
      1. +3
        22 February 2019 21: 44
        Quote: Decimam
        was created for fighting in the trenches the Germans write

        but solely for defensive purposes. Germany lost in machine guns to the British and the French twice (according to V.G. Fedorov). No matter how they called Shosh's machine gun a "non-machine gun", he played his role. What was needed was a mobile machine gun that could be easily moved during artillery preparation of the enemy's attack to the rear and moved to forward positions and repelling the attack at a distance of the last throw of 200m.
        1. +5
          22 February 2019 21: 58
          Obviously, you are right, since at the time the development began, the idea of ​​assault groups was still in its infancy and hardly anyone formulated the requirements for special weapons for these groups.
  12. +5
    22 February 2019 18: 05
    Oooh! Finally! Is it not otherwise, your comrade, Vyacheslav Olegovich, oversaturated the collection with rifle samples and switched to PP?
    Bravo!
    "And today you, at supper,
    I'll sing about weapons
    Weapons, weapons, ... Ballad! "
    V.S. Vysotsky
    1. +3
      22 February 2019 21: 50
      Hi, hello! hi Happy New Year and all the best! drinks
      1. +1
        22 February 2019 21: 53
        Mutually, Konstantin! Blame you for the extension of the promised, correct!
        1. +2
          22 February 2019 21: 57
          Well, before the "call". wink
  13. +4
    22 February 2019 18: 28
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    overfilled the collection with samples of rifles and switched to PP?

    Exactly!
  14. +1
    22 February 2019 18: 44
    But not from that double-barreled Italian freak, who for some reason is considered the father of all PP (rather, this is not his own grandfather),

    Nevertheless, it was a twin PP. Subsequently, it was reduced to a classic look - Villar-Perosa OVP M1918.

    They took a single unit, attached a butt and remade the trigger for the trigger.

    PS I tried to download an image from an article already published on VO. Issued by:
    The selected file name is not safe or cannot be downloaded.
    No.
    1. +1
      23 February 2019 02: 08
      The paths of ... weapon stories are inscrutable! Either they tried to make a "submachine gun" for a "rifle" (automatic) cartridge ... then they try to pass off a submachine gun as "a submachine gun for the first (!) In the world ,, intermediate ,, cartridge ..."! I mean the Hungarian Kiraly submachine gun (M.39) This gun used rather powerful 9 x 25 mm cartridges ... this PP was also in service with Germany (SS units, in my opinion ...). " In this regard, "Germany produced cartridges (9 x 25 mm) with even more powerful gunpowder, which gave rise to some" weapon experts "to declare that it was" the world's first intermediate cartridge "!
      1. +2
        23 February 2019 03: 27
        Prior to Kiraly 39.M, under the 9 × 25 Mauser Export cartridge, submachine guns were fired by Steyr, Bergmann, SIG.
        The high pressure 9x25 Mauser Export cartridges were produced for testing Mauser pistols. DWG also produced 487D cartridges with reinforced bullet retention. Presumably, the 487D case was different from the standard Selbslade-Pistole Kal. 9 mm Mauser powder charge. And up to 9x25 Mauser was 9x23 Bergmann. So the first "intermediate" 9 × 25 Mauser was not.
        1. +1
          23 February 2019 05: 50
          Quote: Decimam
          So the first "intermediate" 9 × 25 Mauser was not.

          Duc, I'm not saying that "9 x25 Mauser" is an intermediate one ... these are "some experts" trying ... wink
          1. +2
            23 February 2019 09: 47

            Happy Holidays!
  15. +5
    22 February 2019 19: 16
    Clone MP-18 or MP-28 was also produced in bourgeois Estonia at the Tallinn-Arsenal plant.

    Tallinn Arsenal
  16. +3
    22 February 2019 19: 41
    Quote: inyan
    That is why the three-ruler is called the Nagan-Mosin rifle. Because without the barrel of Nagan (bought for a lot of money) it would be just rubbish. Not even CBT or ABT, because there, too, Nagan’s barrel technologies were applied (three-line).

    "Thoughtful" wink statement. No Nagan barrel existed. Rifle barrels appeared even before the birth of Nagan, and their quality depended on the technological base of a particular country. The Mosin-Nagan name was given to the rifle due to the use of a store in it according to the Naganovsky principle.
  17. +2
    22 February 2019 21: 08
    [quote = westa] [quote = bistrov.]
    Mandatory are 3 factors:
    1. Profile education.
    2. Work experience.
    3. Talent.
    If there is nothing one, nothing will be output. Unless you are appointed as the author of something. [/ Quote]

    Which of these qualities do you consider to be the main one? I bet that under the number 3 (three).
    But for some reason you are modestly silent about mozgoff, strange ... request
    1. +2
      22 February 2019 21: 17
      I tried to match your comment with the previous ones, but did not match. Maybe some of the remote?
      1. +6
        22 February 2019 22: 05
        Good evening, Victor. hi

        This refers to the former Carbine, and now ... Christmas trees! ... He was again completely removed! That’s why - everything was fun for the night. Well, this leader does not think life without his lover Kirali. As for this Hungarian, then our friend Carbine again arose from nothingness. Yes ... quickly him. request
        And Happy New Year to you. drinks
        1. +4
          22 February 2019 22: 09
          Good evening! And you with the upcoming! Yes, they cut off, one might say, live. Although about Kirali it seems to be too early.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  18. +3
    22 February 2019 21: 52
    Quote: Reserve officer
    automata work is due to the removal of gases.

    Not always! There was a series of my articles about semi-free rifles with automatic rifles ...
    1. 0
      24 February 2019 10: 23
      Quote: kalibr
      Not always!
      Yes, at least Baryshev.
  19. 0
    23 February 2019 07: 06
    Submachine guns are now mainly used as special forces weapons (MP5), police weapons, although instead of the latter they are more often used automatic rifles and as a direct self-defense weapon PDW.
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Пистолет-пулемёт
    1. +1
      23 February 2019 13: 43
      The police and their special forces have specific tasks that are performed in a limited urban area, indoors and for the release of hostages. The usual task for the military is on that side all the enemies. The task of the police is to free hostages and capture criminals for subsequent justice. That is why the police use the MP-5, as a weapon with accuracy at the required distance.

      Conventional automatic carbines like the M4 are used by police special forces to storm buildings, but not inside with plasterboard walls.

      PDW - more military weapons of self-defense of crews, etc. It is important for them to break through bulletproof vests and a large, but light wearable ammunition. For police tasks, the ammunition is not very suitable, in order to stop the offender you have to stuff him with bullets, and the one stuffed up to the court will not survive. Expansive bullets were adopted for small-caliber PDWs, but they are also not effective and are prohibited in many European countries, including for the police.
      1. 0
        24 February 2019 10: 44
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        to stop the offender, you need to stuff him with bullets, and the one who is stuffed up before the court will not survive.
        What nonsense ?! The criminal is shot not in order to catch him for trial, but in order to stop the resistance that could result in injuries to police or third parties, as well as during an attack.
        If a criminal is shot, it’s not a task to simply immobilize him: the police have special tools for this - a club, a shocker, and sometimes a network. There is no requirement in any instruction to shoot so that the offender survives - there is a requirement to shoot to kill.
        From this point of view, to give the right to the population to self-defense only the LLC is a nonsense of an amateur: despite the fact that this is a "weapon", despite the fact that it is intended not to kill, in fact, in the cold season it only makes the attacker angry, and in general inflict serious injury or kill if hit "in place".
  20. 0
    April 26 2019 11: 40
    It is a pity that the author did not mention the author of the MP-18 (he is also called the Bergman submachine gun) - the ingenious German designer Hugo Schmeiser. After all, he constructed not only the first serial submachine gun, but also the first machine gun (assault rifle) and his contribution to the creation of AK is difficult to overestimate ...