Submachine gun "Uzi" against "Mauser" and "Erma"

135
They say that ideas are in the air. And they say that information is like water: it is in the habit to leak everywhere. Yes, in fact, she doesn’t need to leak out by herself. There are media, there are “official statements”, there are military attaches, there are spies. In a word, it is easier to learn about what others have and to apply it in oneself. Here, for example, the Uziel Galya submachine gun, which was put into service in 1954 year under the name "Uzi". Yes, he was ahead of many samples, but much of what he did was, as we already know, done before him, and much was already in the drawings or was tried.

For example, the same West Germany for a long time was content with a clone of our PPS, but in November 1955, when the Bundeswehr began to be created, it was decided to create its own sample. Thus, the large-scale development of machine guns in West Germany was stimulated, which resulted in the Bundeswehr conducting many tests of submachine guns chambered for 1956 × 1959 mm Parabellum from 9 to 19. And for the sake of objectivity for the sake of testing and the British "Sterling", and the Israeli "Uzi".



Submachine gun "Uzi" against "Mauser" and "Erma"

M-56 had a very simple design. Shooting was carried out with an open bolt, the handle of which was to the left. However, unlike MP-40, it was covered with a special plate. Both the pistol grip and the additional grip under the barrel had characteristic figured cuts under the fingers.


Mauser MP-57


The most successful were recognized the development of two companies: "Mauser" and "Erma." The last company at that time was working ... French inventor weapons Louis Bonnet de Camill, who designed a submachine gun, is very similar to both Czech and Israeli designs. He received the designation МХNUMX, but, having released all 56 copies of the new submachine gun, the company refused to develop it further. It is possible that she did not have the production capacity necessary to fulfill the military order. In general, it turned out that someone Fenner Achenbach financed this project, but transferred the work to Camille to Mauser, where she received the designation M-10.


MP-57 - device layout.


Mauser has improved the design of the new submachine gun: a folding stock has been added, and the folding front handle under the barrel has been improved so that when folded it would be horizontal.


Submachine gun "Mauser" MP-57. Left view. A mode switch is clearly visible just above the trigger. There is an automatic grip guard at the back of the handle. Shops are inserted into the pistol grip. On top of the receiver box laid folding butt. Below under the trunk is an additional handle with a figured neckline at the bottom.


In the MP-57, the oncoming shutter was used, and cartridges were powered from easily accessible 32-cartridge shops from the MP-40. Moreover, with a weight of 3,15 kg without a store, the Mauser was much lighter than the Uzi, which weighed 3,5 kg. Its total length was 610 mm, folded - 430. The rate of fire was high - 800 rds / min. However, in the end, the Bundeswehr MP-57 did not adopt, but chose Uzi, giving it the designation MP-2 (1959). In total, 25 submachine guns of this type were manufactured. It was tested in different countries, but there was no order for it.


MP-57 with a fully unfolded butt and hand grip.


Stayer Mpi-69


Also at the beginning of the 60 of the twentieth century in Austria, the development of a new submachine gun began, in which the designers tried to use all the achievements of military-technical thought accumulated by that time. The Steyr-Daimler-Pooh company designed the MPi-69 PP, the design of which was only slightly modified in the 1981 year. It turned out the version of MPi-81, which was produced until the middle of the 1990-s. Moreover, both versions have found wide application in the police and armies of a number of countries in Europe and in other regions of the planet.

The submachine gun MPi-69 is a typical example of the third generation. Short, convenient, with the location of the store in the handle, providing "intuitive" loading in the dark. Shoots from the open shutter. The choice of shooting mode is carried out by pressing the trigger: the first press - a single shot, more powerful and long - automatic fire. Receiver box of simple outlines, made of extruded steel, pad on receiver and pistol grip made of nylon. The “oncoming” shutter, that is, it is placed on the table and thus a large part, namely the 2 / 3 of its weight is in front of the chamber. Drummer fixed. The recoil spring is worn on a metal rod, which, together with it, enters the hole in the upper part of the bolt.


Submachine gun MPi-69.


The MPi-69 platoon handle is very original. It is essentially not there! To pull the bolt back, pull the belt around the strap; to reset the bolt, the shooter must pull the front of the sling back and then release it. On the MPi-81 submachine gun, this system was replaced with a conventional handle on the left. The sight consists of a protected front and rear with reversible entirely on 100 and 200 mm. The front sight is adjustable horizontally and vertically. Butt retractable and made of steel wire. The rate of fire is low - 550 shots / min., Which allows for good control of this weapon.


MPi-69 with extended wire butt.


Mendoza HM-3


In Mexico in the middle of the 70 of the twentieth century, they also took up a submachine gun, which was designed by Hector Mendoza, the son of the famous Mexican designer of small arms Rafael Mendoza. This compact and modern weapon was subsequently adopted by the Mexican army. But due to strict Mexican laws, he never officially exported outside the country. At the end of 1990's, Mendoza began the production of an improved version with modern polymer parts. The butt is known in several versions: U-shaped, folding on the right side, and L-shaped, the design of which is such that the shoulder rest can be the front handle for holding.


Submachine gun NM-3.


The designer, apparently, wanted something unusual, and he achieved his goal. This software does not have a cocking handle. He has a pistol-type shutter, with notches on both sides, and that's what they are cocked for. This submachine gun was designated HM-3 and was produced in two main versions: HM-3 for military use with automatic fire capability and semi-automatic HM-3S only for the police and security forces. The latter has a U-shaped cocking knob (instead of a notch), which is located above the receiver and because of its shape does not interfere with aiming.


The police model HM-3S has a characteristic handle on the gate, located vertically, and a butt with a U-shaped shoulder rest.


Walther MP


Finally, the Germans managed to create a very simple and unpretentious "Walter" MP - a submachine gun with a rolling bolt and a reloading handle carried far forward, which is located above the barrel. The MPK version is more suitable for concealed carrying, the second MPL is for aiming firing.

The shutter is also free, and the fire is conducted when the shutter is open. Butt folding, of a metal tube, and its shoulder rest can be used as an additional front handle. Both options allow the maintenance of both automatic and single fire.


"Walter" MP-L.


It was produced in several modifications: MP-K (K - Kurz, “short”) - version with barrel length 171 mm: MP-L (L - Lang, “long”) - version with barrel in 257 mm. Both options were widely exported to Latin America, including countries such as Brazil, Colombia, Mexico and Venezuela.


The device "Walter" MP-L.


PM-63


In the 50-60 years of the last century, the Polish gunsmith constructors Peter Villeneuvec, Tadeus Bednarsky, Ryszard Helmicki and Ernest Durasevich created their own 9-mm submachine gun with a magazine in the hilt and a Soviet 9 × 18 mm PM cartridge (later it appeared later in the handle and under the Soviet 1957 × 1957 mm pistol PM (later it appeared in the handle and under the Soviet 26 × 2013 mm pistol PM (later it appeared later in the handle and, under the Soviet XNUMX × XNUMX mm, the PM cartridge appeared later it appeared later in the XNUMX mm submachine gun with a magazine in the handle and a Soviet XNUMX × XNUMX mm pistol PM with a magazine in the handle and under the Soviet XNUMX × XNUMX mm pistol PM appeared later, and it was the same; "Version of this software, which was exported). Interestingly, the XNUMX project of the year considered the possibility of reducing the rate of fire by increasing the weight of the bolt without increasing its size. To achieve this, it was supposed to be due to a tungsten liner. However, the proposal did not pass, because the construction was very expensive. In XNUMX, an experienced submachine gun with a moving bolt was given the code name Ręczny Automat Komandosów (“special submachine gun”). The mass of the shutter on it increased due to its greater length. (On the "VO" article about him was XNUMX February XNUMX g. There all its features are described in great detail.)


One of the first samples of the Polish submachine gun RM-63.



Scheme of the device PM-63.


To be continued ...
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135 comments
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  1. +8
    8 May 2019 06: 28
    The cycle pleases previously unknown models of weapons. Thanks to the author.
  2. +5
    8 May 2019 06: 51
    German gunsmiths also knew how to make and produce high-quality and reliable weapons.
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. +13
    8 May 2019 08: 44
    "The MPi-69 cocking handle is very ingenious. It's actually not there! To pull the bolt back, pull the strap with the sling; to cock the bolt, the shooter must pull the front of the sling back and then release it."
    Obviously - translation costs, sling translates both as a sling and as a belt.
    There are no slings there. As a handle for cocking the shutter, the front sling attachment belt is used for carrying. He pulled the front swivel onto himself, let go - shoot.

    The photo clearly shows how the shutter cocked in the Steyr MPi 69.
    1. +17
      8 May 2019 08: 51
      Of course! This proposal needed editing - one word "bolt" is worth it. But ... I took it from somewhere, and then got distracted, apparently, and forgot that it was necessary to work with it. Second, after it the sentence is already "normal". Once again I'm convinced how difficult it is to proofread your own text yourself. There are always some flaws! Alas!
      1. +7
        8 May 2019 09: 20
        With regard to weapons, "volt" is always a bolt. The bolt running onto the barrel is most often a telescoping bolt - a telescopic bolt. Although sometimes there is also a "wrap-around bolt" - a bolt running on the barrel.
        1. +3
          8 May 2019 17: 35
          Yes, I know, I was simply distracted by something on this proposal. It happens...
      2. +4
        8 May 2019 11: 53
        Good afternoon, Vyacheslav! Thanks for the new article and the upcoming Holiday! drinks

        As for the bolts: Everything is correct there, they have there, in the decaying west, all manual reloading bolt rifles are simply called "bolts". So you don't need to translate anything, those who are in the subject will understand, and those who are not will not need to. hi
        1. +10
          8 May 2019 12: 53
          Stop, Constantine! The resource seems to be scientific popular, and therefore, I think, "chewing" makes a lot of sense. For example, I am not in the subject (not a techie), but I am happy to read such materials
          1. +7
            8 May 2019 13: 01
            Hi Anton, Happy Holiday! hi I am also not a "techie", but one does not interfere with the other. I meant that we have Viktor Nikolaich, who will always explain and expand everything, and the author of the articles does not really need to "bother" about the educational program, let him write more good articles for us, otherwise soon there is nothing to read here in arms will be. drinks
            1. +5
              8 May 2019 13: 14
              And you too with the upcoming holiday!
              My opinion: in any case, the material should be accessible to the average reader.
              For contrast, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the first articles of E. Vashchenko on the organization of the Byzantine army of the XNUMXth century.
              1. +3
                8 May 2019 13: 16
                Thank you, I'll sit in the evening, read. hi
        2. +5
          8 May 2019 15: 30
          "there, in the decaying west, all manual reloading bolt rifles are simply called "bolts"
          Simply bolts of a bolt-action rifle are called in the overwhelming majority of cases the “couch experts” of the local spill, since slang is not used in the special literature.
          In the decaying West (English), the rifle is called a rifle. If the rifle has a longitudinally sliding bolt, then bolt-action rifle. And if a direct-acting longitudinally sliding shutter, like the Mannlicher M1895, then straight-pull rifle.
          1. +1
            8 May 2019 19: 31
            Well, as I said, an older friend will always correct any mistake. However, Viktor Nikolaevich, having written about "bolts", I relied on imported arms literature. Do not ask which one, I don’t keep an archive, but I guarantee that which is not an artistic one. smile
        3. +2
          8 May 2019 17: 35
          Thanks! And you too !!! Good luck and spring mood!
        4. +1
          9 May 2019 07: 36
          They also have bolts for the crossbow. From there, apparently, the legs of the bolt-bolt grow?
          1. -1
            10 May 2019 05: 14
            Quote: Horse, people and soul
            They also have bolts for the crossbow. From there, apparently, the legs of the bolt-bolt grow?

            Damn everything is gone with us too! Horror! This is due to the place where not only the legs grow, but they can also screw the same bolt !!! wassat crying
      3. +1
        8 May 2019 21: 45
        Quote: kalibr
        Once again, I am convinced how difficult it is to read your own text yourself. Any flaws always remain! Alas!

        Vyacheslav! hi Thank you for an interesting, informative and easy-to-read article. And about proofreading your own text, let me give you a little advice: read it out loud. All the "shoals" in this case appear much more clearly. This is the old method of newspaper proofreaders and censors. hi
  5. +3
    8 May 2019 09: 51
    Thank you, very interesting. I have a question for you, automatic pistols can be attributed to submachine guns and most importantly what is the fundamental difference between them, as a class.
    1. +5
      8 May 2019 11: 32
      "... automatic pistols can be attributed to submachine guns and the main thing is what is the fundamental difference between them as a class."
      There is "GOST 28653-90 Small arms. Terms and definitions".
      According to this standard, a pistol is a small arms, structurally designed to hold and control when shooting with one hand.
      According to the same standard, a gun - a machine gun - an automatic machine, the design of which provides for firing pistol cartridges.
      In turn, the machine is an automatic carbine. From these three definitions, one can clearly see the fundamental difference and the fact that the automatic pistol is not a submachine gun.
      1. +4
        8 May 2019 11: 55
        Vic, hello, with the Coming! hi As always, you have everything sorted out and you have an answer to any question. For what I love and respect. drinks
      2. +4
        8 May 2019 12: 09
        We are trained in pistol shooting with only two hands, and very often with Roni’s butt or modular kit https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQSMjyCYYJT4xDnrPvJr3sDt03Zwx0CkDAEvtqcht which is not suitable for us. https://images.ua.prom.st/7_w1371055370_h640_konversionnyj-takticheskij-komplekt.jpg
        1. +3
          8 May 2019 12: 16
          It absolutely does not change anything. You can shoot from a carbine with one hand, but that does not make it a pistol.
          1. +1
            8 May 2019 16: 07
            Quote: Undecim
            It absolutely does not change anything. You can shoot with one hand from a carbine, but that does not make it a gun

            You do not catch the difference between "you can shoot" and "constructively intended".
            1. +3
              8 May 2019 17: 32
              But am I not talking about that?
              1. +2
                8 May 2019 21: 38
                Yes, I am confused with the sequence of comments. :)
        2. +4
          8 May 2019 13: 41
          Just different shooting schools.
    2. +5
      8 May 2019 14: 17
      Here it is numbing to someone! Another spiteful dwarf zamushenil adequate comment.
  6. +3
    8 May 2019 12: 51
    The articles are interesting, I look forward to the Swedes, they have quite interesting PPs especially with a sub-caliber bullet, 6.5x25, also they are in 7.62x25.
    And the most popular with banditos-Intratec TEC-DC9.
    1. +6
      8 May 2019 17: 31
      All this will be, do not worry ...
      1. +1
        8 May 2019 17: 38
        Quote: kalibr
        All this will be, do not worry ...

        According to TES-9, you can show the explosion scheme. Pretty simple software, for poor countries.
  7. +6
    8 May 2019 14: 19
    Hello hi ... a bit of shooting:
    The MPi-69 submachine gun is a typical example of the third generation.
    .... whose design was only slightly modified in 1981. The resulting MPi-81 version
    In the late 1990s, Mendoza began manufacturing an improved version with modern polymer parts .... Mendoza HM3
    Produced in several versions: MP-K (K - Kurz, "short")
    ... "Walter" MP ... It was produced in several modifications: MP-K (K - Kurz, "short") - an option with a barrel length of 171 mm ...
    ... MP-L (L - Lang, "long") - an option with a barrel of 257 mm.

    PM-63
    In the 50-60 years of the last century, Polish arms designers ... created their own 9-mm submachine gun with a magazine in the handle and under the Soviet 9 × 18 mm PM cartridge

    _All Victory Day! drinks
  8. +5
    8 May 2019 17: 58
    That's how it goes ... the layout of the material depends on the topic, the idea of ​​each material. It is possible to describe each PP, but, probably, this is a slightly different direction of articles than mine.
  9. +1
    8 May 2019 21: 04
    By the way! Today I read that the border service "Dozor" in Ukraine was armed with "Kokhav" MR 5!
  10. +2
    9 May 2019 06: 30
    There they have a real panopticon of submachine guns. Each service tries to choose the best!
  11. +2
    9 May 2019 06: 33
    Quote: Polite Elk
    This is an old method of newspaper proofreaders and censors.

    Thanks! But not always succeed. One must be at home. My loved ones ... do not really like my topics ... And to listen out loud ....
  12. -4
    9 May 2019 11: 32
    Post-war submachine guns (PP) - this is basically a further reduction in the cost and simplification of the traditional design of the PP, taking into account the practical experience of using the PP. But there are interesting nuances.
    1.In these 2 PPs, a one-row rearrangement store was used that does not swing the PP from side to side when shooting, as with a two-row magazine without rearrangement, which significantly increases the accuracy of the weapon and the ease of aiming from such weapons, which affects the effectiveness of these 2 PP:
    The MP-57 used a “rolling” shutter, and the cartridges were powered from the easily accessible 32-cartridge magazines from the MP-40.

    PM-63
    In the 50-60 years of the last century, the Polish gunsmith constructors Peter Villeneuvec, Tadeus Bednarsky, Ryszard Helmicki and Ernest Durasevich created their own 9-mm submachine gun with a magazine in the hilt and a Soviet 9 × 18 mm PM cartridge (later it appeared later in the handle and under the Soviet 1957 × 1957 mm pistol PM (later it appeared in the handle and under the Soviet 26 × 2013 mm pistol PM (later it appeared later in the handle and, under the Soviet XNUMX × XNUMX mm, the PM cartridge appeared later it appeared later in the XNUMX mm submachine gun with a magazine in the handle and a Soviet XNUMX × XNUMX mm pistol PM with a magazine in the handle and under the Soviet XNUMX × XNUMX mm pistol PM appeared later, and it was the same; "Version of this software, which was exported). Interestingly, the XNUMX project of the year considered the possibility of reducing the rate of fire by increasing the weight of the bolt without increasing its size. To achieve this, it was supposed to be due to a tungsten liner. However, the proposal did not pass, because the construction was very expensive. In XNUMX, an experienced submachine gun with a moving bolt was given the code name Ręczny Automat Komandosów (“special submachine gun”). The mass of the shutter on it increased due to its greater length. (On the "VO" article about him was XNUMX February XNUMX g. There all its features are described in great detail.)

    The store with rebuilding in one row has long been finalized by the Germans themselves and the complaints about its insufficient reliability were taken into account. In more advanced stores with rebuilding and direct supply of the cartridge from the store, in the narrowing neck of the store - where the cartridges begin to be rebuilt in a row, the cartridges with their side walls do not slide along the flat faces of the inner side walls of the store, but along the protrusions, and the store is no longer sensitive to pollution, it cleans itself. This is the simplest design task, which is solved in a similar way in many weapons nodes with a consistently positive result, but in the USSR they could not be solved:




    It is enough to perform the protrusions only in the tapering part of the store, and leave the direct part of it with smooth walls, or even make it through the windows (for the gun store located completely inside the handle of the gun).
    2. The combined mouth of the store with the handle is a saving in the weight of the PP and its compactness.
    3. The on-board shutter with the free shutter allows you to move the center of gravity of the PP forward, so that it is easier to shoot without a stock, to make the PP more light in weight and compact in length. But you need to think about the effective cooling of the barrel closed by the oncoming shutter, which can quickly overheat when shooting intensively.

    ... With regard to the modern PPs of the 21st century: The bolt itself and the PP barrel must also be positioned as low as possible by the Center of Gravity, closer to the grip of the machine gun, in order to reduce the chatter of the weapon when firing and thereby increase the effectiveness of the PP. The optimal pistol CG is in the same horizontal line with the exact line behind the arrow's index finger pulling the trigger. We sometimes shoot from PPs "in a pistol-style" - without a stock. The design of the most folding PP stock should be made without the Recoil Shoulder (according to Blagonravov), and the sights should be placed higher - as they do in modern weapons with picatinny rails.
    ... This was supposed to be achieved through a tungsten insert. However, the proposal did not pass, since the construction was very expensive.

    Here, the translators messed up something, most likely, because the no less heavy metal - lead, which is traditionally used to produce all calibers of small arms bullets, can be freely poured into the cavity of such a shutter and closed the technological hole after pouring with more refractory metal. Calculate the volume of the cavity and the volume of lead inside, taking into account the thermal expansion coefficients of lead and gate steel. It will come out cheaper than tungsten and easier to manufacture.
    But in modern PCs, they are fighting to reduce the mass of weapons and the weight of the free shutter does not suit the designers anymore, so they use lighter half-free bolts or gas exhaust automatic weapons, as in automatic machines - and here is also a huge place for forward development. Modern semi-free shutters can be made more reliable than existing ones, better balanced, even lighter. Gas automation systems can also be made lighter and more compact than currently existing weapons counterparts, and better balanced.
    Modern software can be made easier, more precisely, more efficiently, but technologically it will come out somewhat more expensive than the simplest software of the first half or the middle of the 20th century.
    1. 0
      9 May 2019 12: 22
      In modern stores made of plastic, direct fluoridation of the surface of the store is used, which ensures that the dirt does not adhere and the cartridge does not rub without friction.

      The buildup of an automatic weapon equipped with a magazine with an output of cartridges without rebuilding one row is completely lost against the background by orders of magnitude greater swinging from the reciprocating movement of the shutter, the double impact of powder gases (into the slide and the slide frame), the impact of the slide frame into the receiver and barrel .
      1. -1
        9 May 2019 13: 06
        Quote: Operator
        In modern stores made of plastic, direct fluoridation of the surface of the store is used, which ensures that the dirt does not adhere and the cartridge does not rub without friction.

        Plastic shops don't suit the military. The jaws holding the cartridge in the store are thin, and if they are made of plastic, even when used in conditions of large temperature drops, they quickly break. Plastic is a "living material", it is constantly changing its properties, "aging", under the influence of low temperatures or aggressive media, radiation - it becomes brittle, from large temperature changes, plastic also rapidly ages and becomes brittle. And the plastic store breaks down. This is permissible in the civilian market, but definitely not in the army. Americans seem to make good stores out of polyethylene. But the army still buys metal.
        In Russia, plastic sponges make steel sponges. You won’t make the sponges of the store thick, because you get bad weapons - in this part of the weapon, the bill goes by a fraction of millimeters to bring the cartridge closer to the chamber axis - this is both the reliability of the weapon’s automation and the accuracy of firing from the weapon at the same time. They also try to make the shop in this section smaller, in order to reduce the window under the store in the receiver and increase its stiffness - which gives the accuracy of firing from weapons and increases the efficiency of fire from weapons.
        Combined store: case - plastic, sponges - steel, the military is quite happy. The protrusions of the tapering neck of the plastic also can not be done. Thin protrusions made of plastic are easily damaged, even just scratched during tough operation, and this will cause problems in the operation of such a store - delays. The upper part of the store needs to be stamped from steel, and then steel should also be strengthened by nitrocarburizing. The thin metal will quickly become saturated with compounds of carbon and nitrogen and the process will take little time, it will be inexpensive in mass production. And to make the bottom of the store out of plastic - an excellent store will come out for both software, assault rifle, and sniper weapons: lightweight and reliable.
        Quote: Operator
        The buildup of an automatic weapon equipped with a magazine with an output of cartridges without rebuilding one row is completely lost against the background by orders of magnitude greater swinging from the reciprocating movement of the shutter, the double impact of powder gases (into the slide and the slide frame), the impact of the slide frame into the receiver and barrel .

        The weapon sways to the sides, so much that in any slow-motion video made with automatic shooting from such weapons, the weapon goes left and right and the amplitude increases with each shot. In Russia, people hardly shoot weapons, so they don’t understand how badly a store without accurate rebuilding is for accurate and effective shooting. For such people, I suggest watching videos on YouTube, of which there are many. I shoot and it’s no secret to me how bad a two-row store is without rebuilding. With a single shooting mode after swinging to the sides of the weapon, additional time is needed to stabilize the weapon and aim, which reduces the rate of fire. A store without rebuilding - it’s always bad, in any weapon, even in the highest quality weapon, under the lightest small-caliber cartridges - it always sways the weapon.
        1. 0
          9 May 2019 13: 33
          Now there are completely plastic shops made of crystalline polyarylate - practically the same metal, even forged when heated.

          I did not shoot from PP, but I strongly doubt that replacing a double-row store without rebuilding cartridges with a rebuild store will somehow affect the accuracy of firing in bursts, since the shift of the center of gravity of the shutter (during reciprocation) and the mass of the shutter are two orders of magnitude greater displacement of the longitudinal axis of the cartridge relative to the axis of the barrel and the mass of the cartridge.

          The hands and body of the shooter do not serve as a rigid machine, but as elastic shock absorbers, therefore shooting from PPP type PPs at a distance more than 25-50 meters (depending on the shooter’s qualifications) is a waste of money. And so from the Uzi-like all the more.
          1. -2
            9 May 2019 17: 49
            Quote: Operator
            I did not shoot from PP, but I strongly doubt that replacing a double-row store without rebuilding cartridges with a rebuild store will somehow affect the accuracy of firing in bursts, since the shift of the center of gravity of the shutter (during reciprocation) and the mass of the shutter are two orders of magnitude greater displacement of the longitudinal axis of the cartridge relative to the axis of the barrel and the mass of the cartridge.

            Very bad effect on the accuracy and efficiency of automatic and self-loading weapons. All samples of weapons under a two-row magazine without rearrangement swings left and right when shooting, in addition to the usual recoil action. The trajectory of the weapon in the hands of the shooter when shooting becomes complex and poorly controlled by the shooter, accuracy decreases, accuracy decreases, time for aiming increases - the fighter is already dead while aiming after the previous shot, because the enemy had a weapon with a direct feed cartridge, which makes accurate Shot faster (SIG P320 (P229), Beretta 92, KRISS Vector, etc.). It is useless to deal with this muzzle attachments and compensators, because this is a jamb of the magazine and can only be treated by replacing the magazine with a magazine with a direct cartridge feed. In weapons, the cartridge flies into the chamber at high speed and the force leading the weapon to the side with an oblique feed is not so small. The larger the diameter of the sleeve, the mass of the cartridge, the speed of the cartridge at the moment of movement from the magazine to the chamber, and the less the weight of the weapon, the more it sways left and right when shooting. It is treated only by replacing the store with a more perfect one in design, and in no other ways.
            Quote: Operator
            The hands and body of the shooter do not serve as a rigid machine, but as elastic shock absorbers, therefore shooting from PPP type PPs at a distance more than 25-50 meters (depending on the shooter’s qualifications) is a waste of money. And so from the Uzi-like all the more.

            But it is necessary to shoot 200-250 meters inclusive from the software with an emphasis on the butt. This is where there is space for thinking how to make weapons accurate in order to hit. Human anatomy does not allow holding a weapon rigidly. Everything in our body is elastic, but having sufficient degrees of movement in all directions. And even the human skeleton and joints are designed so that they do not interfere with conditional segmental bodies of the body to move freely in all directions with a small amplitude under the influence of external forces, even at maximum muscular tension. Therefore, any constructive lack of weapons leading the weapon away from the aiming point until the bullet leaves the barrel of the weapon negatively affects the accuracy of the weapon and this does not heal until, instead of people, it was taught to fight steel robots with AI, and another skeleton-frame device laughing We all mow, if we are given oblique weapons, even snipers and recognized experts in precision shooting wassat
      2. -2
        9 May 2019 13: 24
        Quote: Operator
        against the background of orders of magnitude greater buildup from the reciprocating motion of the shutter, a double blow of the powder gases (into the shutter and the bolt frame), a bolt of the bolt frame into the receiver and barrel.

        .... The site works poorly, so I tear the message. To reduce the impact of automatic weapons on firing accuracy, it is necessary to improve automatic weapons. I constantly write how to do it. For gas exhaust automation I understand all the nuances. There are areas where you can make a breakthrough in the accuracy of weapons. Russia has been sleeping since the beginning of the 90s. Or rather, even earlier, she went to sleep. In the United States and NATO countries, they are not sleeping.
        For semi-free shutters, I also have thoughts on how to improve them, but half-free shutters by the military are not interesting. And we write here primarily about weapons for the Army.
        The store also needs to be improved - move to a new one, with the rebuilding in one row. There is nothing in the weapon that does not affect accuracy. A store without rebuilding greatly affects the combat characteristics of weapons. We need to learn how to make good shops with rebuilding in one row, so that weapons in Russia again begin to shoot right at the target, no worse than the western one. Russia makes bad pistols because of shops. Not guns are bad, but stores without rebuilding make them so.
        And to improve the cartridge: for machine guns and pistols, lighten the cartridge, do not insanely increase the diameter of the sleeve, reduce the sleeve flange. Improve the ballistics of the bullet so that the bullet loses less speed in flight, and less gunpowder is required to disperse it, which burns out and destroys the barrel, and we will reduce wind drift in a more streamlined and heavier bullet. Metal-plastic sleeves are interesting, where the sleeve itself is like a hunting cartridge: the front part is made of polymer, the bottom is made of brass. I can write a lot about the design of the cartridge case for high-precision weapons, and here Russia is decades behind the West.
  13. 0
    9 May 2019 12: 03
    A submachine gun is no more than an extremely cheap mechanism for stuffing an enemy carcass with bullets (not protected by at least a light bulletproof vest) at close range due to the fact that the reciprocating large-mass shutter (relative to the mass of the whole weapon) swings the PP without childishness.

    Therefore, where you don’t place a receiving mouth of the store in the PP, you will still get close to zero accuracy of fire by bursts (with the exception of shooting at close range). Especially this disadvantage manifests itself in weapons with the location of the receiving neck in the handle, as in the Uzi-like PP. Therefore, the best models of automatic weapons in the class of submachine guns are considered to be PPP, MP-40 and М3 with a spaced base for holding a weapon with two hands, inside which the shutter moves (PCA and Thompson are out of competition because of their large mass and automatic form factor) .

    In other words, Uziel Gal, not possessing elementary knowledge in biomechanics, screwed up completely with his "army" PP with a magazine in the handle and a large free shutter laughing
    1. -2
      9 May 2019 14: 01
      Quote: Operator
      A submachine gun is no more than an extremely cheap mechanism for stuffing an enemy carcass with bullets (not protected by at least a light bulletproof vest) at close range due to the fact that the reciprocating large-mass shutter (relative to the mass of the whole weapon) swings the PP without childishness.

      Modern SMGs are already a different class of weapons. The partisans and rebels have long been saturated with Kalash and fnks. A 21st century PCB should be lightweight, precise, easy to use - for professionals. A modern PP should only shoot from a closed shutter, with a fixed burst mode of 2-3 shots, and so that it does not walk in all directions in the hands. A folding or retractable butt of a competent design is required. Light polyethylene or aluminum spring-loaded curtains are permissible on the liner ejection window, so that nothing flew inside, like in the M-16, but of a more perfect design. Gas-operated automatics have not exhausted anything yet and you can make it very light, less affecting the accuracy and efficiency of shooting, if you move away from the old patterns that PP is for the Papuans. I also have a version of a semi-free bolt for a pistol cartridge on the head more interesting than the German GK MP-5. I thought about how to make this German more reliable and came to an even simpler shutter with a slowdown, placing a slowdown device like the AK and Garand M-1 - radially. And in the USSR it was already in machine guns, but no one thought of placing it radially - it turns out even easier, and without unnecessary details. Even without rollers, deceleration comes out with a slight rotation of the shutter cylinder. And under a rifle cartridge, another 2-3 balls from a bearing of a small diameter, rolling along inclined radial grooves inside the bolt carrier, solve the problem of "slowing down" under a more powerful cartridge. Weight, dimensions - we win. The circular starting of the sleeve will slightly increase the reliability of such a weapon, compared to the Germans. The accuracy of the weapon is from a semi-free bolt. All parts of the bolt carrier are closed and protected from external dirt and debris. After the war, the Germans made only the first step towards semi-free locks with their rollers. Before that, there were levers at the semi-free locks. It remains to place the balls radially and force the shutter to rotate when retreating back along the oblique helical "lugs", and the balls will slow down rotation and retreat - the advantages of the classic rotary and semi-free shutters are combined laughing
    2. -2
      9 May 2019 14: 17
      Quote: Operator
      Therefore, where you don’t place a receiving mouth of the store in the PP, you will still get close to zero accuracy of fire by bursts (with the exception of shooting at close range). Especially this disadvantage manifests itself in weapons with the location of the receiving neck in the handle, as in the Uzi-like PP. Therefore, the best models of automatic weapons in the class of submachine guns are considered to be PPP, MP-40 and М3 with a spaced base for holding a weapon with two hands, inside which the shutter moves (PCA and Thompson are out of competition because of their large mass and automatic form factor) .

      In other words, Uziel Gal, not possessing elementary knowledge in biomechanics, screwed up completely with his "army" PP with a magazine in the handle and a large free shutter

      A spaced apart base elongated along the axis of the weapon inside which a heavy bolt moves is good for shooting stability, partially weakens the flaws of the store without rebuilding. But now light and compact PCs are produced with increased requirements for accuracy and accuracy. Because the police use them when a slip is often the death of an innocent passer-by or witness. The military also wants no worse weapons. But as for me, the military should have only the best - the war will take all this into account. Therefore, 21st century software is a high-precision and high-tech weapon at the level of machine guns and sniper rifles. A store without rebuilding under a powerful and heavy cartridge in such a lightweight PP generally kills accuracy and accuracy. The mass of the moving cartridge in the transverse axis of the weapon in the horizontal direction at the time of reloading increases relative to the mass of the weapon - and such a weapon takes away more when firing. We need a store with rebuilding and direct supply of a cartridge for modern PP, which does not cause a horizontal bullet of weapons when firing.
      1. 0
        9 May 2019 14: 37
        The main thing for PP is to be compact, so the rest of its design features (spaced hold base, store location in the center of gravity, rebuilding of cartridges in the store, balanced automation, etc.) can be implemented whenever possible.

        One of the modern software with a powerful cartridge is the FN P90 - its layout of the store and the supply of cartridges can serve as a starting point for creating a national software package (subject to an increase in the base for holding the weapon and using other types of automation).
        1. -2
          9 May 2019 15: 26
          Quote: Operator
          The main thing for PP is to be compact, so its other design features

          Compactness is a requirement for the so-called auxiliary weapons, which are equipped with crews of tanks, pilots, etc. In the West, this problem is considered. But the military key is quite happy. And Ksenia - under a normal submachine gun cartridge. An automatic rifle cartridge is heavier in mass, which is a shortage of military weapons, but it is more accessible, because the whole army on this cartridge, which is already an advantage of this cartridge. Applying a metal-plastic lighter sleeve, we will win in the weight of the cartridge, but the long stroke of the Ksenia's automatics still makes the weapon heavier than under the pistol cartridge. I would make Ksenia barrel with better cooling and a more open ventilated forend. The American company POF produces automatic rifles and carbines with improved barrel cooling - everything is beautifully decided on this company, the weapon withstands sadistic tests for the number of shot cartridges in automatic mode.
          Under modern sights, something and the base of MA Dragunov to replace the key will come up with a compact and light in the near future. Samples are already being shown at exhibitions. There, physically, this machine has a more rational layout for systems with an upper lateral gas outlet than automatic machines of the AK family.
          If you develop the topic of gas vents, you need a thin gas vent made of a heat-resistant alloy (like the American AR-15) above the barrel, closer to the barrel itself, so that it bends and extends along with the barrel, lesser reducing the accuracy of the barrel. The bolt frame of the central heating center and the Center of Inertia will be able to perform structurally lower, closer to the axis of the barrel channel that is optimal for firing from such weapons. Butt without shoulder recoil, according to Blagonravov. 8-12 combat stops at the shutter, and not 2 - there will be less radial movement of the shutter during the shot, even with a shorter stroke of the shutter frame to shoot more accurately, and less radial movement when setting the shutter in the front combat position, so that the machine returns earlier to a stable position after the first shot - we raise the accuracy, accuracy and practical rate of fire. The resource of the barrel and accuracy can be increased by abandoning the side gas outlet in the wall of the barrel, if the gas outlet to the front muzzle device with a built-in gas outlet. But here you already need to look with reference to the machine, how much it will work in the machine. It works perfectly in self-loading weapons, but such a gas exhaust system is more quickly polluted because it is not blown by gases under high pressure, as in AK. Shop with rebuilding in a new compact machine for the crew of military equipment and so on. - We will further increase the accuracy and practical rate of fire, especially from unstable positions. Mandatory shooting mode with a cut-off of 2 or 3 shots, in addition to a single. Long bursts are almost never shot, because the cartridges must be saved and be able to hit the target from the first shot.
          And the last cherry on the cake is metal-polymer sleeves with a reduced flange, lighter, and more perfect shapes, due to the reduced sleeve flange, for the automation of high-precision self-loading weapons. But this is a new cartridge coming out. You can do it under the old one.
          Quote: Operator
          One of the modern software with a powerful cartridge is the FN P90 - its layout of the store and the supply of cartridges can serve as a starting point for creating a national software package (subject to an increase in the base for holding the weapon and using other types of automation).

          Bad store. All of the plastic and the cartridge in it makes a complex movement. I saw problems with the store for this FN P90 among shooters who cope with other weapons with a bang. You cannot handle this store without qualifications and experience. It is difficult to equip with cartridges. The store is a disadvantage of this software. But the store is large, and specialists like FN P90 even use such a complex store. I think that they pray at stores so that they don’t let you down at the right time. But the cartridge itself is interesting, as I like it — accurate, flat, with low recoil, a sleeve with a reduced flange, when it hits the gelatin block, the bullet unfolds and inflicts a lacerated wound of large cross section.
          1. 0
            9 May 2019 15: 49
            I meant PP as an exclusively police weapon for use against felons who are not protected by body armor. For terrorists in body armor, special forces police officers require a full-fledged machine gun. For tankers also require a full-fledged machine with a folding AKMS-type butt. But the pilots will have to interrupt themselves with a 9x19 mm caliber pistol - in any case, after the ejection of enemy territory, they will be hunted by numerous enemy units, so nothing will help single pilots except for their search and rescue service armed with attack helicopters.

            If the FN P90 is bad, there is a Beretta M12 with the store's location in the center of gravity of the weapon and a large holding base. It remains only to balance the automation and we will have the perfect police PP.

            Metal-polymer sleeves when fired from a closed bolt melt in the barrel.
            1. -2
              9 May 2019 17: 03
              Quote: Operator
              I meant PP as an exclusively police weapon for use against criminals unprotected by bulletproof vests.

              The FN P90 was designed for the army. Special services and PMCs still use such weapons. He is with armor-piercing bullets. According to the Western program, he passed so that he could penetrate body armor and army helmets at 200 meters. The Germans of caliber 4,6 mm offered their cartridge, which is also good, but the United States chose the Belgian caliber 5,7 mm. But both rounds are good. There is also tracer and training cartridges for it. Later, a civilian version of the cartridge of this caliber appeared for policemen with an ordinary bullet. Now, perhaps, the range of cartridges has been expanded. A small bullet weighing only 2 grams, but unfolds in the body and cripples the target. Stopper police love to get a shot from the first shot. And a narik can get caught, and a lousy criminal, and just an elk on adrenaline, which needs to be knocked down with a single shot. Although, there is a controversial issue, which is better, and not always the advantage in the direction of stoppers. Intelligence agencies still use this Belgian small-caliber weapon. The President of the United States with Belgian pistols is being guarded, a bunch of other presidents and dictators, the mafia loves this cartridge, because it pierces police body armor. And the police have 9 mm, .40 caliber and .45 caliber pistols in the main, but both the Germans of the caliber of 4,6 mm and the Belgians of the caliber of 5,7 mm are purchased.
              Quote: Operator
              Tankers also require a full-fledged assault rifle with a folding butt like AKMS. But the pilots will have to interrupt with a 9x19 mm pistol - in any case, after ejection over enemy territory, numerous enemy units will be hunted for them, so nothing will help single pilots except their search and rescue service, armed up to attack helicopters.

              AKMS I do not like at all. Better Kalash 5,45 mm with a folding butt. AKMS is tin, you need to constantly train with it, therefore, not for tankers who need to train more with the tank, and not with the AKMS. Ksenia of 5,45 mm caliber or 5,45 mm Kalash with a folding stock is better than AKMS for tankers. Pilots are better off using lighter weapons to quickly reel fishing rods from where they fell. But Ksenia is satisfied with the pilots too. Many calibers for the army are a complication of logistics. Pilots are easier and quieter weapons, and at the same time under a powerful cartridge to break through the body armor and helmets of the enemy. At the same time easy to use and to intuitively hit. Silent - this will be a pistol with an army-style silencer for subsonic cartridges, and powerful - lightweight and shortened versions of assault rifles under a standard cartridge with an armor-piercing bullet, but of a more advanced design than currently used, from which it is problematic to shoot when the enemy has more accurate weapons on armament.
              Quote: Operator
              If the FN P90 is bad, there is a Beretta M12 with the store's location in the center of gravity of the weapon and a large holding base. It remains only to balance the automation and we will have the perfect police PP.

              I know this Beretta. I saw this piece of iron. In Italy, the police are definitely armed with them, in a number of other countries. But more popular now is the HK MP-5 with a half-free shutter. Beretta M12 - a regular submachine gun, a very long time produced. Under the cartridge 9 mm Luger. This PP also drives left and right when firing from behind a magazine without rebuilding. I post the first video that appears, where in a couple of moments in slow motion you can see how it sways left and right when shooting, and the swing amplitude increases, better videos should be on YouTube, if you look:

              This is already yesterday. In the 21st century, they began to produce again, but under modern stores, PP with a direct feed cartridge and rebuilding, which keep the front sight exactly when firing and do not scatter left to the right, like the Swiss KRISS Vector. Balance the automation in height and horizontal, and with a rotating shutter, still balance the radial shutter to prevent the occurrence of centrifugal forces leading the weapon away when firing at the side. Use a gas vent or retardation in the bolt under a powerful pistol cartridge, the barrel is only stationary, with good access to fresh air for cooling. So that the police have a modern, accurate and efficient apparatus. Only shoot from the shutter. So that it was light, precise, a bunch of special stages allowed to hang on all sides, the fore-end is cylindrical around the trunk, the butt without recoil shoulder. All the nuances are solved today. For the policeman to shoot and hit, and not think about anything anymore, to shoot quickly, spend a minimum of time on aiming.
              Quote: Operator
              Metal-polymer sleeves when fired from a closed bolt melt in the barrel.

              Depends on what. There are plastics quite refractory. Now, and by order of the US Army, such cartridges are being developed for all American army rifle calibers, and there are civilian versions. In Russia, shells with polymer belts are fired - it’s also hot in the barrel, no less than in the sleeve, and the polymers cope.
              1. 0
                9 May 2019 19: 57
                The HK MP-5 with a semi-free closed breech "kicks" when firing more than the Beretta M12 with a free open breech - in the latter PP, part of the recoil energy is extinguished due to the production of a shot when the bolt is rolled onto the barrel.

                The American LSAT program for the development of automatic small arms chambered with a metal-polymer sleeve is a fiasco - in case of firing from a closed gate after the end of the queue, the cartridge is too long in the barrel chamber, the temperature of the inner surface of which exceeds the melting point of all known plastics, so the sleeve just sticks to the cartridge chamber , after which it can be removed only with a knife, because the metal bottom is easily torn off by the ejector from the heated plastic wall. zy.

                Demonstration of firing bolt rifles with manual reloading and plastic cartridges - no more than consumer fraud: after several shots and heating of the barrel, the plastic sticks to the chamber chamber as expected - there are reports of independent American testers on the Internet.

                Polymer belts of artillery shells are made of polycarbonate, which does not melt, but sublimates with the release of exclusively gaseous products - the width of the ring band is designed to sublimate along a circular arc with an emphasis on the rifling of the barrel during the movement of the projectile in the barrel.
                1. -2
                  9 May 2019 22: 29
                  Quote: Operator
                  The HK MP-5 with a semi-free closed breech "kicks" when firing more than the Beretta M12 with a free open breech - in the latter PP, part of the recoil energy is extinguished due to the production of a shot when the bolt is rolled onto the barrel.

                  I’ll write a little theory. When I shoot a weapon with a free bolt that shoots from the rear whisper, I always feel how the mass of the moving bolt with the cartridge moving forward at the moment of the shot strongly knocks the sight, even if the bolt is cylindrical with the center of mass lying aligned with the barrel bore. How not to place the shutter. And if the magazine is two-row without rebuilding, accuracy and accuracy even more fall, because in addition to nodding with the weapon forward, when the bolt and bullet move forward, and nodding with the weapon down, when the cartridge is raised from the magazine to the level of the barrel chamber, a nod of the weapon is added to the left or right , depending on which side of the magazine the cartridge is straining. I've been shooting for a long time. I know different sports firearms, different military ones, slightly imported ones, different hunting ones. I have experience of shooting from different weapons. And not 5 rounds every six months. He himself made a lot of farting, including for sporting small things with a small recoil and the weight of a cartridge, and any mass moved at the time of the shot in the weapon is easily felt by the shooter and knocks down the sight. For serious live ammunition, accuracy will fall even more, because the cartridge is heavier, longer and the sleeve is larger in diameter than small ones, and the nod of the weapon will become even proportional to these characteristics of the cartridge and the speed of movement of the cartridge into the chamber more. The mass of the bolt, the return spring, together with the cartridge in the weapon firing from the rear whisper - this is a large mass, its influence on the accuracy of the weapon is great. The lighter the weapon, the stronger it is felt in the weapon. I myself can stand up for turning, milling and other machines, and depict the shutter of any kinematics in metal, wind a spring, calcine, assemble, and then shoot. Everything has long been personally verified, in addition to physics textbooks, which many ignore.
                  Modern high-precision PPs and assault rifles should not shoot from the rear whisper, this is applicable for other classes of weapons. Therefore, PP firing from a closed shutter is always more accurate at the physics level than PP firing from an open whisper, and this is not treated.
                  The German MP-5 nods stronger left and right only because it is about a pound lighter than the Italian. With an increase in the mass of the weapon, the nods to the left and right will feel weaker, because the speed of such nods will drop in proportion to the increased mass of the weapon - this is Newtonian physics and everything is elementary even for a student who knows physics and mathematics. The fixed mass of the weapon relative to the moving with acceleration parts of the weapon automation is decided.
                  But we are trying to make light and at the same time accurate weapons. Therefore, all the shortcomings of the kinematics of the weapon must be eliminated, even the cartridge flange of the cartridge should be reduced, and the cartridge should be lightened. Do not excessively increase the cartridge case volume for a more powerful shot, but improve the powder in order to obtain the required bullet speed from a small diameter cartridge case and without increasing the cartridge case volume, or to additionally increase the length of the stationary barrel within reasonable limits, which also increases the bullet speed with an increase with each additional centimeter of barrel length, but to reasonable limits.
                  Quote: Operator
                  The American LSAT program for the development of automatic small arms chambered with a metal-polymer sleeve is a fiasco - in case of firing from a closed gate after the end of the queue, the cartridge is too long in the barrel chamber, the temperature of the inner surface of which exceeds the melting point of all known plastics, so the sleeve just sticks to the cartridge chamber , after which it can be removed only with a knife, because the metal bottom is easily torn off by the ejector from the heated plastic wall. zy.

                  They continue to invent such cartridges in the USA. It’s all clear how it works there. I also understand how gunpowder heats the chamber in the PP and the machine gun if inserts from heat-resistant hard-working alloys are put in the chamber, which complicates and increases the cost of machine gun production. However, hope is warm in the Soul.
                  But in addition to the plastic in the hot chamber, I suggest also improving the shape of the classic sleeve. Reduce flange sleeves. We will improve the operation of the weapon automation, the weapon will swing less when the cartridge is sent to the chamber from the store, we will be able to reduce the important details of the bolt group without losing their strength, which will further improve the kinematics and balance of the weapon when shooting. And reducing the mass of the sleeve is always a plus for logistics, and for firing accuracy, and for the load on the shooter. The taper of the liner is also reduced for automatic and self-loading weapons, to reduce the diameter of the liner, the angle of the ramps of the liner to increase the accuracy of the cartridge to make 30 degrees. Between the sleeve dule and the slope, make a radius near the sleeve so that the gases are even better pulled forward. Recycle sleeve geometry. The type of capsule does not play a role here. The cartridge will become better, the weapon for it is also better.
                2. -2
                  9 May 2019 22: 33
                  ... tearing up messages.
                  Quote: Operator
                  Polymer belts of artillery shells are made of polycarbonate, which does not melt, but sublimates with the release of exclusively gaseous products - the width of the ring band is designed to sublimate along a circular arc with an emphasis on the rifling of the barrel during the movement of the projectile in the barrel.

                  Polycarbonate also has one joint - it is destroyed under the influence of ultraviolet radiation, and even ordinary sunlight destroys it, makes such plastic brittle. But there are modern polycarbonates with special additives that weaken the effect of ultraviolet radiation.
  14. +1
    9 May 2019 13: 40
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    The site is working badly, therefore, ditching posts.
    To reduce the influence of the operation of the weapon’s automatics on the accuracy of shooting, it is necessary to improve the weapon’s automatics. I am constantly writing how to do it. I understand all the nuances for gas automatic

    VO has hosting in Germany, so there is nothing surprising in the glitches on 9 May laughing
    Write an article about improving the automation of small arms.
    1. -3
      9 May 2019 14: 09
      Quote: Operator
      VO has hosting in Germany, so there is nothing surprising in the glitches on 9 May

      Already in Russia this is a site.
      Quote: Operator
      Write an article about improving the automation of small arms.

      I write in the comments. True, here a couple of trolls constantly arise, but you can not pay attention to them - they stupidly troll, set minuses and run away when you start to answer objectively. On the server all my comments are. I am not a strong writer. It’s easier for me verbally. When I write, I get distracted and make mistakes, correct and make new ones, not only grammatical, but sometimes also semantic.
      1. +1
        9 May 2019 14: 13
        That's how they all write - each paragraph is rewritten several times. And without an article, the comments could not reveal the essence.
  15. 0
    10 May 2019 01: 08
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    PP shooting from a closed shutter is always more accurate at the level of physics than PP shooting from an open whisper

    There is one exception for PP shooting from an open shutter - PP with balanced automatics.
    1. -2
      10 May 2019 13: 17
      Quote: Operator
      There is one exception for PP shooting from an open shutter - PP with balanced automatics.

      Balanced automation, as it is commonly called in Russia, with the mass of the shutter moving in antiphase, the counter-mass of this shutter? It is unreliable because of the gears in the design, you can make it on cables and blocks, but there will also be disadvantages. Gears do not work well under shock loads - this is taught in mechanical engineering specialties and any intelligent engineer knows this. The bolt quickly rolls back and returns forward - the gears will work at suboptimal, close to shock and shock loads, and the structure turns out to be very weak from an engineering point of view, the survivability of the structure is questionable, the resource of the weapon will fall. You can place a counterweight on a block and a cable in the butt, where free space is already lost without work: the counterweight is coaxial with the center of mass of the bolt group, which, in turn, is coaxial with the barrel bore and the center of mass moving in the barrel at the time of the shot of the bullet - this is the optimal design with a counterweight the shutter will be. Reduce moving masses, on the contrary, keep the rigidity of the weapon's structure high, so that everything is less deformed and bent during the operation of the weapon. The cable has elasticity and will stretch slightly and absorb shock loads, unlike gears, which will simply break and fail very quickly. But the "balance" of the system will fall. The reliability of such weapons will drop slightly compared to the classic ones, and the accuracy of automatic fire will increase significantly. But the accuracy of single fire will not improve: due to the increase in the mass of the weapon, it will rise slightly, but it will fall due to the operation at the time of the shot of this entire cumbersome system of moving parts, not ideally coordinated in time - there will be no advantages for single fire. This is for machine guns only. The weight of the bolt carrier doubles, and this is the dimensions and weight of the weapon, because all this crap is also placed in a more bulky and heavy receiver, plus a cable, a rotating block, the counterweight to the bolt carrier and the bolt ... ergonomics of the shooter - the accuracy of fire will increase, the controllability of the weapon will improve, the additional weapon extended far ahead will decrease. the weight of the weapon, and we will win by the weight of the weapon, because we use the rigidity of the butt in the structure.

      We need to improve the automation of weapons themselves, Eugene Stoner in his AR-15 90% of the tasks associated with accuracy solved. It remains for gas outlets to solve another 10%, plus more rational schemes that are less prone to pollution. It turns out that I can decide the remaining 10% - the shutter and the shutter frame are perfectly balanced by the centers of inertia, all the last minute details of the shutter group, get rid of the remnants of the impact on the accuracy of the external side gas outlet and the gas piston in the weapon. And part of the shortcomings associated with the dirty design of the AR-15 will get rid of. But it turns out another weapon. Both the AR-15 and the SVD will be disposed of permanently. You can make a semi-free shutter for the police a similar concept, and gas exhaust systems for the army: sniper self-loading weapons, machine guns. But the cartridge is better with a reduced sleeve flange. A store without rebuilding will still swing the weapon left and right and interfere with an accurate shot. The weapon starts with a cartridge, and self-loading - with a cartridge and a magazine. With these two, you need to start creating the perfect weapon. I can draw all weapon schemes in 3-D - this is not a problem for me.
      1. -2
        10 May 2019 13: 22
        ... A cartridge with a reduced sleeve flange, Russian 9x21 mm (I can draw for all rifle and machine gun cartridges):


        And a store with a rebuilding, where the narrowing neck of the store is self-cleaning, and not the firewood that short-sighted "experts" shove people on Russian sites (for rifle and automatic cartridges it is also elementary calculated and done, but already with 3 side guides on each side, and not with 2, like a pistol):

      2. 0
        10 May 2019 13: 47
        For PP, you can make a balanced automation without gears and cables.
        1. -2
          10 May 2019 13: 58
          Quote: Operator
          For PP, you can make a balanced automation without gears and cables.

          Parts must move in antiphase. I can hardly imagine how it can work in weapons without an intermediary in the form of a gear with a gear rack or a block of cable with a wheel? All designers and research institutes do this: in Kovrov, a pair of gears of a specially calculated profile, Nikonov’s machine has a cable and a fixed block of wheels. Everywhere gear racks, gears and blocks with cables. In artillery, if this can be useful there, there will also be gears with gear wheels, and gear chains instead of cables, but this is not necessary in artillery.

          And why is modern PP so? It is better to increase the mass of PP due to the thickness and rigidity of the barrel, and the rigidity of the receiver and butt, and not suffer from garbage, increasing the mass of moving parts and complicating the design. Modern PP - for the police, under the police pistol cartridge, where accurate single fire is more important in most cases than machine gun. In the army, with the modern development of machine guns, they are practically not needed anywhere, with rare exceptions.
  16. 0
    10 May 2019 14: 02
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    All designers and research institutes do this: in Kovrov, a pair of gears of a specially calculated profile, Nikonov has a cable in the machine and a fixed block from the wheel

    These are automatic machines chambered for 5,45х39 mm. For the pistol cartridge 9x19 mm, a simpler scheme of balanced automation is quite suitable.
    1. -2
      10 May 2019 14: 13
      Quote: Operator
      These are automatic machines chambered for 5,45х39 mm. For the pistol cartridge 9x19 mm, a simpler scheme of balanced automation is quite suitable.

      Lever arm? Why is all this necessary for a modern PP, which is struggling with weight, but at the same time striving to maintain the accuracy of weapons, including a single shot? A semi-free bolt of a physically competent design, so that nothing dangles and does not lead away from the aiming point, or a similar gas outlet for the most "military" who like to fall out in the mud with a weapon before firing, and so that dirt must be packed inside the receiver, usm and store soldier Shoot only with a closed shutter so that the accuracy of the fire is at the level of the best self-loading weapons with a stock in accuracy and accuracy. Provide a fixed 3-shot mode of bursts, and does a police officer personally question me for a fully automatic mode in general?
  17. 0
    10 May 2019 14: 16
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    Lever arm?

    Know how (and even without increasing the weight of the weapon).
    1. -2
      10 May 2019 15: 14
      Quote: Operator
      Know how (and even without increasing the weight of the weapon).

      Tell us the know-how? But I'm more interested in a semi-free shutter in PP. But not like a German, but with a slowdown during the radial rotation of the shutter, in addition to the direct movement of the shutter back when the shutter recoils.
      The combat stops on the bolt and in the receiver immediately after the breech section of the barrel have not a straight profile, but a beveled - screw profile. Let there be 2 such stops at the shutter left and right of the shutter axis. The shutter moves forward, entering these beveled grooves and turns slightly. When releasing weapons after a shot due to these grooves, the shutter is already slowed down until the bullet leaves the barrel. The shutter should not only move back, but also turn slightly before opening. There are additional friction forces and resistance to rotation of the shutter, due to which there is a slowdown in its opening in the first phase, while the bullet is still in the barrel. Under the pistol cartridge will go. And to further increase deceleration, under powerful pistol and rifle cartridges, the bolt in the bolt frame communicates with the latter through oblique grooves or a curly oblique hole (2 symmetrical oblique curvature holes located symmetrically to the bolt axis in a fully balanced version). Moving back and rotating in the oblique grooves of the receiver, the bolt even more (approximately 2 times), through the oblique grooves between the bolt and the bolt frame, pushes the bolt back held by the return spring until the bolt completely leaves the oblique grooves of the receiver unlocking the shutter and back it already moves like a simple free shutter. Compared to the German company Huckler und Koch, there are no small rollers; the design of the weapon, bolt and receiver is more compact and light. The shutter itself is elementarily structurally performed by a perfectly balanced center of mass of the shutter relative to the axis of the barrel in 2 necessary planes and radially balanced with a circular rotation of the shutter to prevent radial runout of the shutter rotating at the time of the shot.
      The ideal semi-free shutter is more perfect than the Germans with roller construction. Everything is based on existing weapons technology and is performed in metal as standard. The combination of two principles - shutter slowdown and shutter rotation gave a shutter with unique characteristics. The barrel is hung out, the automation is sitting low - on the axis of the barrel, its weight is minimal, everything is perfectly balanced, the weight of the weapon is also minimal. Increase the barrel thickness and stiffness of the weapon box freely to get the match accuracy of the weapon. A cartridge with a reduced flange and a magazine with rebuilding and direct feeding of cartridges into the chamber complete the touches of a new high-precision weapon with a half-free bolt.
  18. 0
    10 May 2019 15: 44
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    Tell the know-how

    Only after signing a contract with a licensed manufacturer of short-barreled weapons.
    1. -2
      10 May 2019 16: 09
      Quote: Operator
      Only after signing a contract with a licensed manufacturer of short-barreled weapons.

      And I laid out the finished semi-free shutter above. Though now bring to the patent office and patent. Just add pictures. I can write some more promising ones. Gas vents can also be steep, so as not to degrade, but to improve the accuracy of weapons, unlike modern ones. But this one is optimal for the needs of the same police. To make a self-loading high-precision sniper, and PP. The police live clean, not like the army. And weapons without a gas outlet are easier to clean, because you do not need to clean the gas piston system of the weapon, only the barrel of the weapon. The inertial Benelli freaked me out that they couldn’t compose something like that for a more serious weapon in harmony of solution, but adapted not only for hunting. And he came to such a semi-free shutter. Inertia, neither the police nor the military are likely to fit because of their characteristics. The Germans did not have the imagination to combine both of the principles of movement permissible in a half-free shutter - the reciprocating and the rotation of the shutter around the longitudinal axis. Therefore, they composed rollers and a bunch of other excess metal in the construction of their rifles on a half-free shutter piled up. Everything is beautiful and simple here, it is calculated for any cartridge. Many solutions successfully roam the AR-15 shutter frame. But this weapon is cooler than the AR-15 in terms of performance. The only minus is a half-free shutter, and not a complete locking at the moment of the shot, as with gas vents.
      1. +1
        10 May 2019 17: 25
        One patent does not solve anything: you patent in Russia - they will issue pirated copies in the USA, you patent them in the USA - they will issue them in China, you patent them in China - they will issue them in Brazil, etc.

        Full patent protection requires about 250-500 thousand dollars, and this is already a full-fledged investment, which only companies such as Kalashnikov, Heckler und Koch, Smith and Wesson, etc. can handle.
        1. -2
          10 May 2019 17: 45
          Quote: Operator
          One patent does not protect anything: if you patent in Russia, they will begin to produce pirated copies in the USA, you will patent in the USA - they will release in China, you will patent in China - they will release in Brazil, etc.

          Full patent protection requires about 250-500 thousand dollars, and this is already a full-fledged investment, which only companies such as Kalashnikov, Heckler und Koch, Smith and Wesson, etc. can handle.

          I don't care about patents. I write to read, think, copy, or invent further. Let them copy ideas, but until they bring it to production, they’ll come up with something their own and move from the parking brake. It will go further along the thumb. But they did not sit still, as with the SVD and Kalash, against which weapons had been developed in the West for a long time that counter them. Russia needs the best weapons to be a leader in weapons technology. I am writing this in Russian on a Russian server. Because thanks to my origin and books in Russian, I was fond of weapons since childhood and began to do it myself. Then he left and did not go to study as a gunsmith, as I was pulled by the Specialists, so that I would not go to jail for manufacturing. I became famous early. At the age of 16, uncles ran after me and asked me to show. Rumors too quickly reached the Specialists. But I always made accurate weapons, because I studied shooting in the sports shooting section. Inaccurate weapons I do not understand. the weapon either hits the target, or it is no longer a weapon. I have diplomas, there is engineering and everything is metal, and from other materials I rummage how to do it and I can do it myself. But I am not a chemist and I do not know all the modern materials thoroughly. In weapons, I normally rummage. Tsniitochmash let read my comments on the server and do. I will write more. Stop sitting in the swamp. War will come unexpectedly as always and you must always be one step ahead of the planet. The Communists launched an army in the early years of Soviet power while they were building an industrial base, and Hitler came to kill the Russians. L.Oh.a.m. and can not be. You need to arm yourself and cherish your army with the latest developments, so that the enemy of the Obl. R.S.R.A.L.s. from one thought about the Russian army and about Russian weapons. I don’t give a damn about smithwessons and hecklers. You can’t drive us with sticks laughing
          1. -3
            10 May 2019 18: 16
            Again the trolls swooped down with minuses. The "Sea" cat and the Horse in a coat got out of their garbage cans. I don't care about the minuses, because none of the local 2 + 2 trolls in the design of the weapon will be able to fold, not only to make a ready-made sample out of the head, and to shoot more accurately than competitors. Quietly sculpt cons. But I already know two concerned. Two offended and notorious people wink
          2. 0
            10 May 2019 18: 53
            Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
            I have diplomas, there is engineering and all metal and from other materials I rummage how to do and can do it myself

            Make a license for the manufacture of smooth-bore weapons - I will give you a project of a semi-automatic submachine precision rifle with a semi-free roller shutter.

            It will only be necessary to master the oval-screw drilling of the barrel bore, carbonitriding its surface and the milky chromium-plating of metal sleeves.
            1. -2
              10 May 2019 20: 42
              Quote: Operator
              Make a license for the manufacture of smooth-bore weapons - I will give you a project of a semi-automatic submachine precision rifle with a semi-free roller shutter.

              It will only be necessary to master the oval-screw drilling of the barrel bore, carbonitriding its surface and the milky chromium-plating of metal sleeves.

              Without rollers, I suggested a semi-free shutter. Which, due to the rotation of the shutter during a short shutter stroke back in the screw channels of the receiver, pushes the shutter frame back through the curly oblique cutouts in the shutter frame interacting with the shutter even more, compressing the spring more strongly at this moment.
              Friction forces when sliding back the shutter with a turn along the oblique helical stops of the receiver and the principle of the lever are combined in one shutter. At the same time, the design is completely balanced and does not cause extraneous disturbances during the operation of weapon automation, which negatively affects the accuracy of shooting. Like a German, it’s only better and better than the AR-15 with a gas exhaust system, which is now the most accurate gas outlet design in the NATO Block countries.
              Slowing the shutter occurs only while the bullet is moving in the barrel. Further, the oblique protrusions end and the free forward movement of the shutter begins backward, as with a regular free shutter. Through the angle of the helical channels in the receiver interacting with the oblique helical warheads on the bolt and through the angle of the oblique notches in the bolt frame, the force necessary to slow the shutter is regulated.
              I have already reviewed all the options for semi-free, inertial shutters, and shutters with acceleration in my mind, while I built this scheme. It is optimal in design. Lighter and more reliable than other schemes, including those with Nekler und Koch rollers.
              It is the simplest, everything is done according to standard weapon technologies, without any oval drilling: only turning, milling and broaching, screw broaches are present and copy milling, but everything is standard and CNC is even easier if you take the standard machining production. Coordinate drilling and boring work will also be. But everything is standard for the production of weapons. Such a shutter allows you to make weapons easier than with roller retardation, without unnecessary parts, and more reliable in operation than traditional semi-free shutters with levers and rollers. It will be more accurate at the training ground than all these rollers and levers.
              It will be necessary to depict in 3D, because I see that it is incomprehensible in words. Then I will lay out the shutter sketches. The insert with screw channels in the receiver should be made harder than the screw stopper of the bolt, the axis along which the oblique screw cutouts of the bolt slide even softer than the bolt, like the receiver itself - this design is ideal. Though now recount under the parameters of the cartridge and put into production. In the West and in the World, there is nothing like it yet, and it is better than all the semi-free bolt locks that are produced. It is more precise, more compact, lighter in weight, more reliable, and the entire design of such a semi-free shutter is perfectly balanced.
              1. -2
                10 May 2019 21: 17
                ...
                Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                The insert with screw channels in the receiver should be made harder than the screw stops of the shutter, the axis along which the oblique screw cutouts of the bolt frame slide even softer than the shutter, like the receiver itself - this design is ideal.

                I broke it. The receiver can also be made harder than the bolt, but it can be softer than the bolt, but better than the bolt, because the bolt of the bolt is smaller and cheap in production, and a good receiver costs money. So, too, everything fits perfectly. Now it's right. I am distracted and therefore make mistakes. There is no time to draw now, and in the head the RAM is occupied with other issues.
                1. -2
                  10 May 2019 21: 28
                  Total: the insert with screw stops in the receiver and the receiver are the hardest, the shutter and bolt frame are softer, and the axis along which the oblique shaped cutout of the bolt frame moves is even softer. So important labor-intensive automation components of such a shutter will not wear out and the system will work more reliably, penny parts will be worn first, the replacement of which will not hit your pocket. This is for the performance of automation. The shutter detail along which the curved cut-out of the shutter frame moves is held on a striker, as in the AR-15. Everything is disassembled elementary, like AR-15, but simpler. The firing pin is removed and the bolt falls apart. And going back.
                  1. 0
                    10 May 2019 22: 30
                    Draw for clarity.
                    1. -2
                      10 May 2019 23: 43
                      Quote: Operator
                      Draw for clarity.

                      I will draw. Only later, tomorrow. It is the simplest in design. I need to sit down in 3-D and start drawing. Not at night to do it. And all of its structural elements have long been mastered by the arms industry in more complex gas evacuation systems. It’s just that in such a semi-free shutter physical forces are competently used and the design itself is rational, not metal-intensive and not complicated by all sorts of rollers and levers. For the next 100 years, it will be enough for the arms industry. Let it be Russia. I'm tired of everything western.
                      I would make it myself easily if I was given a machine tool park. But if I'm already writing here, I'll post it. I have already laid out a self-cleaning magazine with a rebuilding, a sleeve with a reduced flange and a gas outlet that improves the accuracy of a self-loading sniper weapon with an automation system with minimal beats. I will also lay out a semi-free bolt of a more rational design than the current ones, with a deceleration during rotation and a reciprocating movement of the bolt relative to the bolt carrier, plus, using the friction force when interacting between the oblique screw lugs and oblique screw channels, the insert in the receiver immediately behind the barrel, where weapons are usually equipped with lugs. I write clearly, but the word "screw" seems to scare away. Tomorrow I'll draw until evening.
                    2. -2
                      11 May 2019 16: 20
                      He drew sketches to make it clear, but by hand. Drawing there so many nuances in the head arises when plotting that you can experiment with various elements for a week, put together optimally so that all the excess mass of metal is thrown away, make it self-cleaning, so that it is cleaned and purged in the weapon, with minimal beating, make the layout for high-precision weapons, and under bullpup, under different cartridges. And so everything is simple and clear:
                      In figure A, a conventional shutter with 2 side stops, of the type Remington 700:


                      But, if we turn the side stops of the shutter and the corresponding slots in the receiver insert into which they enter when the shutter moves forward, we will make them screw with the Alpha angle, then by increasing or decreasing the Alpha angle we can achieve the drag force necessary to slow the shutter, and we can even completely prevent the shutter from opening if the angle Alpha is made large. What we see in Figure B.

                      But this is not a half-free shutter of automatic weapons, but only its half.

                      We got an additional circular movement of the shutter when moving back, using oblique screw stops and grooves, instead of straight lines. This additional radial movement of the shutter can be used to create another additional force that slows the half-free shutter when rolling back. To do this, we will also make curly oblique grooves at the Beta Angle in the bolt frame, through which the bolt and the bolt frame interact with each other when they move backwards, and additionally compress the return spring with a short stroke of the shutter itself. The bolt frame goes a long way in such a scheme than the bolt itself in the first phase of the backward movement of the shutter - until the bullet has left the barrel. We got the usual semi-free shutter according to the principle of operation.
                      The return spring and some elements in Figure C are not shown, only the gate frame assembly:

                      We get a beautiful semi-free shutter: compact and lightweight, with a minimum of details and beats during operation. Haeckler und Koch on casters and semi-free bolts on the levers such a bolt will steal in weapons and in accuracy, and reliability, and weight. They simply combined reciprocating motion and rotational motion around the longitudinal axis of the shutter in order to use all the possibilities to create forces that slow down the shutter in the first phase of its movement — until the bullet leaves the barrel. And they threw away the deprivation of the details of the usual half-free shutter. At the end of the first phase of movement, such a shutter leaves the helical grooves of the receiver insert, which become straight, continuing inside the receiver itself, and then the shutter moves back like a regular free shutter. When returning to the front position, this design of the shutter helps to rotate it in the oblique grooves of the receiver to the required angle. Optimal design. And the simplest ..

                      Playing with the angles Alpha and Beta in the figures, we can reduce or increase the resistance force when the bolt rolls back under different ammunition, with different recoil force. Both a rifle and a submachine gun can be made, and all of them will be light and accurate, lighter than using a conventional free breech, and everything is located optimally in the centers of mass and balanced in all the necessary planes. In the role of a lever or "roller", the details of such a shutter are themselves.
                      1. 0
                        11 May 2019 16: 30
                        Roller semi-free shutter compared to screw easier:
                        - there are no screw stops in the barrel and on the gate;
                        - there are no screw threads on the outer surface of the gate and the inner surface of the bolt carrier.
                      2. -2
                        11 May 2019 16: 48
                        Quote: Operator
                        Roller semi-free shutter compared to screw easier:
                        - there are no screw stops in the barrel and on the gate;
                        - there are no screw threads on the outer surface of the gate and the inner surface of the bolt carrier.

                        Not easier, but more difficult! Superfluous details - "rollers", which are actually no rollers, but wedges. Both the bolt itself and the receiver are technologically complex in production from a German. It only draws easier. But I draw difficult, but then it is easy to do. I am a technologist by education, I have high machine-building categories. I can work on any machine and sharpen everything myself, without someone else's help. I can write programs on CNC. I am personally familiar with the process. I dismantled the design of this German with rollers. Everything is not easy there.

                        This semi-free rotary shutter is based on the technologies used in the arms industry. All its elements are in AK and AR-15, the details of which are mere pennies in serial production.
                        This shutter in all respects is better than a German. I created it in my head for each element and compared everything with existing samples. My goal was not to show off, but just painted in my head the optimal design, getting rid of the crutches of the existing shutters. He took the best for standards. When he finished composing, he struggled laughing It’s the simplest, as if a gas vent had been torn off the shutter frame of an AK or AR-15 and turned over a couple of details in a new manner. All!
                        The topic of semi-free shutters on this may be closed. Until it starts to be made in metal and optimized. It can be improved and licked for a long time. And you can bury in the drawings. And he will go for hunters and police for all calibers. And Benelli can now be forgotten - it's better than Benelli. And the military can try here and there.
                      3. 0
                        11 May 2019 17: 23
                        In the semi-free roller shutter there really are additional parts - rollers, but they can be picked up in finished form from the mass production range of ball-bearing plants.

                        But the barrel, bolt and bolt carrier do not require additional treatment for applying screw threads to the outer and inner surface (as in a screw semi-free bolt).
                      4. -2
                        11 May 2019 17: 49
                        Quote: Operator
                        In the semi-free roller shutter there really are additional parts - rollers, but they can be picked up in finished form from the mass production range of ball-bearing plants.

                        Rollers (which are actually not rollers) complicate the design, make it not reliable. Like levers complicate the design of the shutter. Rollers with balls are not so easy to replace. Rollers are used under heavy loads, where the balls will not work. With balls, such a shutter is generally bulky. I’m a more perfect shutter than Haeckler und Koch suggested. It’s better to do it now: play with Alpha and Beta corners, make the layout self-cleaning, so that the burner and dirt from the receiver are blown out by the powder gases of the sleeve flying back - there are options there, make a layout with minimal axial and radial beats for snipers, with a return spring behind the shutter - in the butt stock tube, rearrange it under the bullpup. This shutter can be upgraded and lick indefinitely. Under different cartridges to do. Manufacturability of production to increase. The insert with oblique screw grooves is not sharpened, but, for example, sintered using MIM technology, as the Germans from Walter do. This is a ready-made shutter without flaws of rollers and levers. And he is better than inertia, because it’s easier and the weapon for him will be more accurate, and is devoid of the characteristic lack of all inertia. In extreme conditions, it will only lose to a good gas outlet in terms of reliability. The gas vent can also be developed and improved; there are a number of solutions on how to deprive gas vent weapons of a number of inherent flaws in modern zazootvody.
                        And this is a semi-free shutter in which everything is taken into account. You can’t imagine any better. Only perfect this scheme. If the angle Alpha and Beta is made different, then you can subtly play the characteristics of the slowdown of the shutter. The oblique screw slots in the bolt frame can be made not straight, but curly - you can adjust the shutter even thinner. There is everything in this semi-free shutter, but at the same time they got rid of everything superfluous, and it sits exactly on the axis of the barrel channel - it does not outweigh anywhere, the excess parts do not create problems when shooting and for reliable operation of the automation. I thought it over and calculated all the nuances when I composed it. It is fully customizable, like roller or lever.
                      5. -2
                        11 May 2019 17: 56
                        Quote: Operator
                        But the barrel, bolt and bolt carrier do not require additional treatment for applying screw threads to the outer and inner surface (as in a screw semi-free bolt).

                        What kind of thread? And I didn’t draw any carvings. I am only a shutter and in general terms about the receiver and receiver insert. These are all old, well-honed technologies. Such weapons have been released since the beginning of the 20th century. Now it’s possible to slightly upgrade the technology, but this is also done on a regular machine park, with accessories so that the left Vasya in the left factories could not easily be repeated. The primitive design, which is whetted on a single lathe, and then some parts are only machined on an emery, I also went through. But this shutter is not for primitive weapons, but for high-precision and modern ones. It is quite simple and technological, but not primitive. And according to the characteristics inherent in the kinematics and design of this shutter, it will kill all foreigners with half-free shutters.
  19. +2
    10 May 2019 20: 15
    In the madhouse on the occasion of the Internet access was allowed.
  20. 0
    11 May 2019 18: 46
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    Rollers are used at high loads, where the balls will not work. With balls such a shutter generally bulky come out

    With the dimensions of the receiver, everything is simple (the quadrature of the circle is called): the cross-section of the bolt carrier is round, and the cross-section of the receiver is square, while the rollers of the number four are located at the corners of the box. As a result, the transverse envelope of the receiver exceeds the envelope of the slide frame by only twice the wall thickness of the box. Four rollers will withstand twice the load than two.

    Heckler and Koch smoke bamboo laughing
    1. -2
      11 May 2019 20: 20
      Quote: Operator
      With the dimensions of the receiver, everything is simple (the quadrature of the circle is called): the cross-section of the bolt carrier is round, and the cross-section of the receiver is square, while the rollers of the number four are located at the corners of the box. As a result, the transverse envelope of the receiver exceeds the envelope of the slide frame by only twice the wall thickness of the box. Four rollers will withstand twice the load than two.

      Heckler and Koch smoke bamboo

      You can get rid of the "rollers" and levers in the semi-free shutter if you add a rotary motion to the shutter with a reciprocating shutter, as I suggested above. We kill a bunch of harmful flies living in all modern semi-free locks with "rollers" and levers. I have already proposed the design of a semi-free shutter that is optimal in terms of simplicity, manufacturability, accuracy and size-mass. The semi-free breech is not so complex that it is difficult to model an optimal design. No more rollers and levers needed. In this gate, all this has already been decided. Any external additional "roller" or lever will only complicate, make the design of such a bolt heavier, increase the dimensions of such a retardation system in the weapon, and make it much less reliable in operation, and the accuracy of firing from such a weapon equipped with a bolt with "rollers" and levers will also deteriorate. against what I posted. I have already thought it over for others and calculated it. Now, based on these sketches, using this principle of operation of the semi-free breech, draw a finished breech for a specific caliber, calculate Alpha and Beta, and go to the polygon to bend Famas and Heckler und Kochi. I closed the topic of semi-free locks. Of course, you can be perverted as you like, reinventing the wheel, but there are more important questions, for example, sleeves with a reduced flange, stores with rebuilding and direct cartridge feed, and gas venting systems that are not inferior to non-gas vent systems in accuracy and accuracy of fire, light and reliable at the same time. In Russia, there are enough unsolved problems with small arms and there is something to invent and improve in order to make the army stronger.
  21. 0
    11 May 2019 20: 47
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    vapor systems are not inferior non-gas outlet in accuracy and accuracy of fire

    Such does not exist in nature: any removal from the barrel distorts the free oscillations of the barrel when fired, and unevenly - the more heated the barrel and the outlet, the greater the distortion and the less accuracy and accuracy.
    1. -2
      11 May 2019 22: 12
      Quote: Operator
      Such does not exist in nature: any removal from the barrel distorts the free oscillations of the barrel when fired, and unevenly - the more heated the barrel and the outlet, the greater the distortion and the less accuracy and accuracy.

      There are solutions. I thought them over. But we need a new barrel in design, not cylindrical in cross section. In the center with a channel for dispersal of a bullet and rifling like in an ordinary barrel, and at the vertices of an equilateral triangle there are three thin gas outlet channels, like the AR-15, but in the trunk array and running along the entire barrel. Take the selection of gases for the operation of automation from a muzzle device, as in TKB-045S. The design of the receiver, bolt and bolt I also thought through to the smallest nuances. The long-range rifle will specifically bend all existing gas exhaust systems in accuracy and will come close in accuracy to the best bolted long-range propellers for tens of kilobacks. Further 1.5-2 kilometers from rifles do not shoot. But at these distances much can be improved in weapons. It will come out a little more expensive than modern counterparts, but at times more precisely than all of them combined. From bipod will self-charge for 1,5-2 km to beat for sure.

      All the negative aspects of the effect of the gas outlet on the barrel are removable. In the vents around the trunk, nothing moves and does not cause disturbances in the trunk, as in SVD, only hot powder gases. The effect of heating is stabilized around the circumference of the barrel and the barrel does not twist, gas vents do not bend the shaft when firing. The gas piston is close to the butt and on the same axis with the barrel channel - in the receiver, but the system is not dirty, like the AR-15 and the store does not store combustion waste when firing. The shutter and the bolt frame are also fully balanced and sit exactly on the axis of the barrel bore with centers of mass. The system is ideal from the tip of the muzzle device to the shoulder rest of the butt and everything works for accuracy. Firing accuracy in both planes like a bolt rifle, without the negative effects of automation and the gas exhaust system.

      21st century in the yard. For more than 100 years, weapon designers have been throwing knowledge on self-loading weapons, patents, turnkey solutions that can be combined and combined in order to extract maximum results. Everything is possible today. Kalash and SVD for more than half a century. And the AR-15 can jump.
      1. 0
        11 May 2019 22: 35
        With three parallel holes in the barrel will be hemorrhoids in the manufacture - all known technologies (drilling, doreirovanie, rotational forging) of the barrel and the barrel itself provide for work with an axisymmetric body of rotation with a single central channel.

        Therefore, you will have to first work out the technology of production of oval section shafts and the subsequent drilling of three parallel channels, and only then proceed to the release of weapons with a new system of automatic gas extraction. And these are additional costs and the risk of not achieving the desired result.

        My offer of the 4-ball semi-free shutter is based on the already developed technologies and consists only in the arrangement of known parts.
        1. -2
          11 May 2019 22: 48
          Quote: Operator
          With three parallel holes in the barrel there will be hemorrhoids during manufacturing - all known technologies (drilling, rotational forging) of the barrel channel, as well as the barrel itself, provide for the work with an axisymmetric body of revolution with a single central channel.

          You can do it. No rotational forging. Threaded one-pass planing method, then leave, lapping, leave, nitrocarburizing. This is a high-precision barrel for long-range sniper and counter sniper weapons. Walter for sports weapons makes barrels not round. But three additional round channels of circular cross section equidistant from the barrel and located at an angle of 120 degrees relative to the axis of the barrel bore around the circumference are a problem for technologists, although they can be solved. The system is completely axisymmetric, otherwise it’s just that such a barrel will not be able to shoot - it will bend when shooting. Only the transverse profile of such a trunk is closer to the trihedral, and not round. The round barrel itself can be made thin and placed inside such a structure as autofretch trunks in order to increase the tensile strength of the barrel in thin sections additionally, and to optimize the production and repair technology of such trunks. The trunks under the hot long-range cartridges quickly burn out and you need to consider the process of cheap replacement and repair of the barrel itself. The rest of the expensive rifle will live forever. So as not to impoverish in the production of expensive trunks of a new design. It should be fairly easy to repair. He removed it from a rifle in the nearest weapons workshops, replaced it with a new one from the packaging, and sent the old one to restore the barrel bore and rifling back to the factory. This is a high-precision sniper weapon, not a gross submachine gun, and with such a rifle there are nuances of operation.
        2. -2
          12 May 2019 00: 06
          Quote: Operator
          My offer of the 4-ball semi-free shutter is based on the already developed technologies and consists only in the arrangement of known parts.

          Set yourself a specific task: to develop a system with a half-free shutter of minimum weight, with minimal beating, with a minimum number of moving parts, for weapons of the highest accuracy and with perfectly balanced automation, reliable in operation, wear-resistant, strong and durable. I set myself this task, the priorities were the accuracy of the weapon and the weight of the moving parts of the automation, and the weight of the weapon itself. Then I thought about the remaining nuances when I also had balls in my head, but the design loomed, and got rid of the balls (or conical rollers in my case). I drew a ready-made diagram. He painted a little crookedly, because he painted fluently and this is nowhere to be drawn - only in my head.
          And the rollers with levers themselves flew out of the structure, and it became turning, as I laid out above.
          It all depends on a clear design goal. If there is no clear goal, then there will be a million different designs that will never be embodied in metal. And if there are clear guidelines, then the ideal is achievable. I drew the perfect half-free shutter. Details can now be worked through to completion. I posted it so that everyone who knows the Russian language and reads copied and followed this path in semi-free shutters (although the pictures burned the shutter for foreigners too, but you asked - I did), and did not climb on the old rake, which had long been known. Whoever tries to do better with leverage and balls - let them try, but it will be a fiasco, I warn wink
          1. 0
            12 May 2019 02: 29
            Your semi-free screw shutter design is an analogue of the automatic machine gun of Mikhail Kalashnikov of the 1942 model of the year that did not take off.
            1. -3
              12 May 2019 08: 30
              Quote: Operator
              Your semi-free screw shutter design is an analogue of the automatic machine gun of Mikhail Kalashnikov of the 1942 model of the year that did not take off.

              No. This is a semi-free bolt in which the fighting stops and the corresponding grooves in the receiver, immediately after the breech section of the barrel, are made screw rather than straight to create additional resistance when the bolt moves back in the first phase of its movement at the time of the shot (until the bullet leaves the barrel) . And the rotation acquired by the bolt when moving back through the screw grooves is used to divert the bolt frame held by the return spring of the weapon in the forward position, through the corresponding oblique screw slots in the bolt frame at a greater distance than the bolt itself at this moment, to create additional resistance force backward movement of the shutter in this phase due to increased compression of the return spring. This is not Kalashnikov’s software. He also had a screw, but there is a completely different solution. Now, such nodes in all gas exhaust weapons are used where there is a turn, and not a skew of the bolt, and it is not a problem to mass produce such weapons.
              I drew the diagrams and laid out, gave a description. He specially painted three drawings so that when designing such a shutter they use correctly the principles of deceleration and do not confuse anything. There, the screw stops slow down through the Alpha angle, and the screw slots in the bolt frame slow down through the Beta angle - they work simultaneously when the bolt moves backwards until the bolt comes out of the screw grooves of the receiver insert. At this moment, the bullet leaves the barrel and further the shutter works as usual - free, moving back without rotation, directly. Where is the Kalashnikov PP? I did not even delve into the Kalashnikov PP device, I only saw him in the picture several times fluently. Hekler und Koch rolled shutter in his head, but strove to make his face clean, and not like that of a German. Benelli inertial shutters also did not give rest. But their working principle did not suit them. As a result, everything overlapped one another, the excess was cut off, and such a shutter came out. We live in the 21st century, there is already a lot of knowledge on self-loading automation of small arms, the industry has been stamping such things for a long time, but for other locking systems. Kalashnikov assault rifle in million copies only in the USSR / Russia released. In the West, weapons with similar nodes are mass-produced. Everything is mastered before us. Take and do.
  22. 0
    11 May 2019 23: 00
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    You can do

    It’s impossible - any metalworker will say that, so you’ll have to demonstrate the actual manufacturing of the barrel itself, and then also prove its accuracy / accuracy as part of the weapon.
    1. -2
      11 May 2019 23: 08
      Quote: Operator
      It’s impossible - any metalworker will say that, so you’ll have to demonstrate the actual manufacturing of the barrel itself, and then also prove its accuracy / accuracy as part of the weapon.

      On a lathe, it is also possible by the method of deep drilling, but special equipment is needed. Deep drilling machines are similar to turning, but not universal, there are multi-spindle. I speak like a metalworker. I sharpened and processed deep holes, eccentrics, and I know all the nuances of working with metal. But sharpening in the classical way is not very interesting and the price of the error will be high. We need non-drinkers of the highest class for such work, responsible, who will not confuse anything with the equipment. But, anyway, the marriage will be. But the new methods for producing stem blanks of this design for these trunks are interesting. That everything was accurate, high quality and with a minimum of waste. To only perform finishing operations by cutting method: the amount of rejects, waste and the complexity of production will drop.
  23. 0
    11 May 2019 23: 38
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    new methods for producing stem blanks of this design

    That's what I'm talking about.
    1. -1
      12 May 2019 08: 39
      Quote: Operator
      That's what I'm talking about.

      No problem. Walter does. And to drill 4 holes in the barrel so that there are no beats and drill drift - not a problem. I have extra. draw equipment for such operations and put it here? Where all holes are drilled as accurately as possible with minimal runouts, absolutely coaxial (with minimal alignment tolerances), which are only possible when drilling on modern technological equipment.
      But I would prefer to drill rather than drill deep holes so that such a barrel in production would come out cheaper and with a lower percentage of defective products. I can make such a trunk myself. But it will come out longer than a conventional barrel drilling. But I want to prepare such trunks with the potential for mass production. So that in the event of a serious conflict, industry stamps rifles such as pies. As such technologies are mastered, machine guns and machine guns will also be equipped with such trunks to fire more accurately than modern similar weapons. It is necessary to develop technology - to move progress.
    2. -2
      12 May 2019 15: 53
      Quote: Operator
      That's what I'm talking about.

      In order to drill three holes in a long and thin stem billet made of steel running parallel to the bore along the entire billet, and to do this efficiently, we need extra. devices stabilizing the rotation of a part such as an eccentric.
      We need a barrel with 3 built-in gas outlets at the outlet:

      But we only have a part with a ready-made central bore for the bullet and the external contour of the barrel, which are easy to get in the traditional way.
      We make three sets of detachable adaptations to stabilize the rotation of the barrel stock during drilling. Steel for adapt the barrel so that the specific gravity matches. And we begin to drill holes around the barrel bore counterclockwise. Schematically simplified, it will look like this:
      To drill the 1st hole around the barrel should be like this:

      To drill the 2nd hole around the trunk like this:

      To drill the 3nd hole around the trunk like this:


      Got a trunk with three gas vents. holes did not break and did not lead away. Simplified wrote, only regarding the drilling of gas outlets. This is not yet the purity that is needed. Everything on the machines is done, if skillfully.
      1. 0
        12 May 2019 18: 20
        A simpler solution of the problem is known - the axial gas outlet surrounding the barrel from all sides. But he is not childishly warming the trunk - as well as your three gas vents. So do not take off.
        1. -2
          12 May 2019 18: 33
          Quote: Operator
          A simpler solution to your problem is known - an axial gas vent that surrounds the barrel from all sides. But he is not childishly warming the trunk - as well as your three gas vents. Therefore, it will not take off.

          How is it easier? Trunk in the pipe - this is where I started, but for a long trunk there is such a volume of gas outlet that there isn’t enough cartridge to push back the bolt frame back with a short stroke of the bolt frame back. And you can’t make it too narrow, because gases at high speed through a narrow crack can not break through. It will look terrible if you take it on a heat chamber, and such automation will not be able to work. And the weight will be mom do not worry. I'm doing everything right.
          The gas outlet barrel warms up strongly only in the front part - at the very beginning of the gas outlet, and the barrel itself is very hot from the back when fired. I took these critical points away so that the barrel warmed up more slowly. The triangular profile has the largest surface area of ​​simple shapes and the heat of such a barrel will give the external environment better. And three gas vents to evenly distribute the heat around the circumference of the barrel. When heated, the metal expands and if the gas outlet system is not stabilized in this way, the barrel will lead to heat from firing, and the aiming point during the firing will go along with the barrel heating - we’ll go to the wrong place.

          This is a design for a self-loading sniper rifle, where accuracy comes first.
  24. 0
    12 May 2019 18: 49
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    three gas vents to evenly distribute the heat around the circumference of the barrel

    Three gas outlets explicitly more unevenly distribute the heat over the surface of the barrel than one axial.

    You did not cite a single argument why the well-known design of a semi-free roller shutter is worse than an exotic design with three gas outlets.

    A semi-free shutter will provide more accurate shooting in semi-automatic mode than the vapor mechanism due to the transfer to the shooter during the firing of a single recoil pulse (from the impact of powder gases into the bolt) compared to two pulses (from the blows of powder gases to the bolt and the gas piston / bolt) .
    1. -2
      12 May 2019 19: 30
      Quote: Operator
      1. Three gas vents will obviously more unevenly distribute the heating on the surface of the barrel than one axial one.

      2. You did not give a single argument why the well-known design of a semi-free shutter roller is worse than an exotic design with three gas vents.

      3. The half-free shutter will provide greater accuracy in semi-automatic shooting than the gas exhaust mechanism due to the transfer to the shooter during the shot of one recoil impulse (from the impact of the powder gases into the shutter) compared to two pulses (from the blows of the powder gases into the shutter and gas piston / bolt frame).

      1. They heat up together - synchronously. A triangular profile cools the barrel. Plus, according to the compromising profile, such a profile is much less susceptible to bending than round with a long barrel length - such a profile is stiffer, the barrel will shoot more accurately. It makes no sense to infinitely increase the walls of the barrel, because approximately from the moment when the wall of the barrel becomes equal in thickness to the diameter of the internal bore of the barrel, the increase in the resistance of the barrel walls to rupture begins to lessen as their thickness further increases. Therefore, for heavy barrel profiles with a large elongation of the most long-range and most accurate weapons, it makes sense to switch to a triangular, hexagonal or octagonal profile so as not to pull on excess metal that is inefficiently used in weapons. The triangular profile is the lightest for such a vent system, and it cools well. Therefore he. But this is the basis - the base. The profile can be licked, made even lighter, with a larger surface area. I drew schematically. These are not blueprints, but schemes, so that inquiring minds begin to screw with convolutions wink
      2. "Roller" is worse than mine, because it is more difficult - there are more moving parts, small moving parts under heavy load, including, it is more massive, parts work in worse modes than in mine, the very layout of semi-free automation with rollers in the weapon is more cumbersome. It works like a bolt rifle for me, only with a semi-free bolt: the stops on which the bolt rests when moving backwards in the first phase are located immediately behind the chamber around the bolt - this is the best scheme both in terms of reliability and mass-dimensional characteristics. It will even affect accuracy, because my parts are smaller and they are better positioned on the axis of the bore, more optimally located. With "rollers" this will not work. I gave the ideal scheme of a semi-free shutter. Roller and lever will all be worse. Where the video will try to catch up with mine, mine will do it with less weight and dimensions, and better than the roller one - this is the main thing. It is better to use the released weight for the case, instead of pulling unnecessary "rollers" in the shutter and other hat, and reliability is never superfluous. This is the best semi-free shutter design. It is more perfect. I wrote a lot above about such a shutter and its advantages.
      3. I have already laid out half-free; there, only screw slots in the bolt frame should be turned 90 degrees around the longitudinal axis of the bolt frame so that they become left and right, and not from above and below - there is a place for the cartridge from the direct-feed magazine to smoothly flush. Somehow when I painted everything, I didn’t show it at once - I painted it as it was drawn. And the cross section of the oblique cutout in the bolt frame will actually turn out to be larger, other little things and details after calculations will slightly change the proportions. But this is a sketch of the work scheme.
      The gas vent is more reliable than a half-free shutter. All shots in my rifle with 3 gas outlets fall at one point in space along the common axis along which the bullet in the barrel moves at the time of the shot. This is an ideal gas exhaust circuit. It’s better that physics doesn’t allow to create - this is the limit.
      1. -2
        12 May 2019 20: 04
        Oops, again the quieter minusers climbed out. Funny audience. They pray in chorus for glock like Papuans on glass beads, which today nothing special stands out against the background of more modern and high-quality pistols, there are better ones. And when you write how to make normal weapons in Russia, they troll, call them boorish and quietly minus. The commies nevertheless killed the soldiers specifically in these Russian people when they took away the weapons from the population. Now for them a glock instead of a bead in pictures is enough to show and tell that he is better than a makar.
        I will kill these quiet people further, defending good weapons for the Russian army, and not trash from the end of the 19th century, or American junk from the middle of the 20th, and billions for the thief Serdyukov ..
    2. -2
      13 May 2019 00: 36
      Quote: Operator
      Semi-free shutter will provide greater accuracy in semi-automatic mode

      If you promise not to laugh, then I personally can offer you an even simpler semi-free shutter, in which one moving part is a shutter, as in a free shutter. And a simple return spring. Nothing rotates, no screw stops and oblique grooves, no levers, rollers and gas vents. But figs such a shutter is easy to tear from the extreme forward position. And when it breaks, then it moves further freely, held only by the usual return spring. It uses the old physical principle of residual magnetic induction to slow the shutter to roll back when fired. Explain how it works and how to calculate such a shutter? wink Even children at school in labor education lessons, or as they call it correctly, will be able to assemble such locks. As a child, I did not think of this and learned to work on metal-working machines to make my first "normal" pistol.
  25. +1
    13 May 2019 01: 33
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    principle of residual magnetic induction for slowing the rollback

    The residual magnetic induction of steel decreases with time, therefore, after the n-th number of shots, the semi-free gate will become free with all the ensuing consequences. You can, of course, make a bolt of magnetic material, but its cost will increase by an order of magnitude and one bolt will cost like all weapons.

    On the fig, you gave up this golimy exotic - vapor automatic with three gas outlets in the triangular body of the barrel, semi-free valve on the residual magnetic induction, braking semi-free valve due to the friction force (extremely unstable due to the presence of grease, dirt, gunpowder carbon )?

    Keep it simple and people will reach out to you. laughing
    1. -2
      13 May 2019 02: 21
      Quote: Operator
      The residual magnetic induction of steel decreases with time, therefore, after the n-th number of shots, the semi-free gate will become free with all the ensuing consequences. You can, of course, make a bolt of magnetic material, but its cost will increase by an order of magnitude and one bolt will cost like all weapons.

      Samarium-cobalt magnets operate at temperatures up to 300 degrees. Light and powerful (like neodymium). Make a vintar under some heavy-duty cartridge in the posted barrel, and slow down the shutter opening with a magnet. To stick to a powerful magnet in its extreme forward position. Or even 2 magnets stick together - the shutter will slow down even more laughing Now there is such a price for weapons that it is possible to allow samarium-cobalt magnets to be inserted into a rifle. They will buy as much as a run.


      Quote: Operator
      On the fig, you gave up this golimy exotic - vapor automatic with three gas outlets in the triangular body of the barrel, semi-free valve on the residual magnetic induction, braking semi-free valve due to the friction force (extremely unstable due to the presence of grease, dirt, gunpowder carbon )?

      This is not exotic. This is to get rid of the shortcomings of modern gas vents, and to use the entire mass of weapons for rifle accuracy is more rational, without any left pushers, pistons and gas vents, which do not carry any useful function in the barrel. On the contrary, they interfere with an accurate shot and hang on the weapon with excess weight. Such a vent system will make the barrel stiffer and more accurate, because it is the barrel, and is also designed to make the barrel stiffer in bending and more metal and heat-resistant, with better cooling. And the details of such a rifle will be less than that of modern ones. We win in everything. The price is high until new technologies break in. AK at the time of its appearance was also extremely complicated and expensive to manufacture in comparison with the PPSh and Mosin rifle. But AK failed to resolve issues related to accuracy and accuracy. And today, in the countries of the NATO bloc, weapons are very accurate and you can’t fight with Kalash. The bolt frame and gas piston in such a rifle are perfectly balanced and sit on the axis of the barrel, and gas vents around create additional. structural rigidity - they continue along the receiver in its array. In addition to the fact that they do not bend the barrel and do not cause disturbances transmitted to the barrel by a piston moving in the gas outlet at high speed in shock mode. And right behind the trigger hammer, the annular gas piston in the cylinder with a short stroke for unlocking the shutter, made by one part with the bolt frame around it with a small protruding ring - everything is symmetrical and balanced, followed by the return spring in the tube in the butt, as in AR-15. Everything works for accuracy and doesn’t take the rifle away when fired from the automatic parts of the weapon and the exhaust system, the beating of the moving parts of the automatic and their negative impact on the accuracy is minimized, their proper location allows you to shoot from such weapons very accurately. All that remains is the jamb of the store with the upward movement of the mass of rounds in the store when firing between shots, but it is impossible to deal physically with this. We get rid of the cant of a two-row magazine without rebuilding by switching to a high-quality modern magazine with direct feed of a cartridge. The ejection of the sleeve into the strontium also slightly adds a jamb, but with a lighter sleeve this negative moment will weaken. Sleeves with a reduced flange in cartridges for such a rifle will make it even more accurate, and the dimensions of the bolt frame and bolt are more compact, which significantly reduces the weight of the entire rifle. These sleeves themselves will become easier.
      I proposed a semi-free shutter, usual, but not on friction. Just replaced the lever rotation. Everything works there and is set up like a regular half-free shutter. The angles of Alba and Beta are selected and the shutter becomes more stubborn for unlocking. This is not Kalashnikov’s PP.
      Quote: Operator
      Keep it simple and people will reach out to you.

      If a person in arms is not boom-boom and crawls to me with trolling when I write about weapons, then I am sending such a person. I do not miss without talking to trolls. Let each other troll in their circle. I follow the Western weapons technology and write how the West jump. Local theorists are still praying for Kalash, SVD, and a cartridge for the Mosin rifle, and then they pick up Western weapons and cannot understand why they shoot and fall, but the Russians do not. Everything is very bad with weapons after the USSR. The commies killed weapons culture in Russia and today Russians rush at all sorts of glocks like Papuans on shiny glass beads. There is propaganda, but there is almost nothing behind it. This is about shooting and local trolls.
      1. 0
        13 May 2019 07: 11
        Samarium-cobalt alloy is brittle - will fall out when fired.

        Alloys without samarium have an order of magnitude less magnetic force.
        1. The comment was deleted.
  26. 0
    13 May 2019 18: 02
    What a hell of a mess ...
    Firstly, neither Mauser nor Erma were the "most successful" participants in the Bundeswehr competition for the title of MP2 - the main favorite almost until the end of the tests was the Swedish Carl Gustav M / 45, and the Israelis were given the final victory for 3 reasons:
    1. Uzi tankers liked more than M / 45, and they were one of the main customers of the PP
    2. The Israelis promised a higher rate of supply
    3. political correctness

    Well, for calling Steyr "Stayer" you should immediately
    1. +1
      13 May 2019 21: 41
      Have you been a member of this commission or received information using extrasensory perception? Or is it Wikipedia?
      1. 0
        13 May 2019 22: 25
        I received information in particular. from this book: https://amzn.to/2Q0Ra4J
        and there’s such an interesting document at hand: http://i63.tinypic.com/1604zr.jpg
        where did you get the information from?
        1. +1
          14 May 2019 09: 21
          From where and always - from branded sites, minobra sites, and instructions for use ...
          1. 0
            14 May 2019 10: 27
            from company sites, minobra sites, and instructions for use

            Can you tell me on what "websites of ministers" and in what instructions you can read about the fact that Erma / Mauser were the "most successful" participants in the competition?
            And yes, you can brag about where you found instructions for Mendoza or Armagueru?
            1. +1
              14 May 2019 11: 48
              Quote: el_soldado
              And yes, you can brag about where you found instructions for Mendoza or Armagueru?

              Do you want to prove something to me? Don't ... this is an empty exercise. You can't prove anything to me. Better - this is the best option - take and write excellent material yourself with links to sources, photos of documents. Now about the specifics of the work. When I write materials on the history of chivalry, there are links to sources, because this is intended for a serious audience, and here they are "tested". With materials on PP it is different - this is initially a purely popular series, not designed for the fact that it will "go somewhere further." Therefore, there are no links. I don't see any sense in them. And where did that come from ... You know, I don't remember. I see no reason to remember ... This material, for example, was written at the end of January ... Then there will be, for example, material with a photo in winter, in the snow. So if you want to "cling" to the little things - please. In any case, the series will continue further. Your opinion is the opinion of one person out of 19000. And that says it all. And what, how, where and how you do not even need to know ... why "fish places" to open?
              1. 0
                14 May 2019 13: 39
                And where did that come from ... You know, I don’t remember. I see no reason to remember

                Well, still, who will remember their requests to Google?

                Why "fish places" to open?

                we know these "fishy places" of yours, some photos are too familiar.

                1. +1
                  14 May 2019 17: 59
                  I repeat once again: with the volumes of diverse information with which I deal everything can be. Some photos come from the Internet, some from the websites of firms. What is the crime? Have I already written to you? no one forbids making more interesting, more accessible, bigger and with better photos. The flag in rugi is a witch to help and go. The editors will help you insert your material.
        2. +1
          14 May 2019 09: 26
          Strange: I opened the top links and there is a book "American Warning". It is unlikely that this is what you need. Can you tell us the title of the book? Your link does not work for me. Now I'll check the second one ...
          1. 0
            14 May 2019 10: 03
            book "The UZI Submachine Gun Examined" by David Gaboury
            a photo:
            1. +1
              14 May 2019 11: 37
              An interesting document.
              1. 0
                14 May 2019 11: 40
                certainly
                but still I wonder what YOU based your constructions on.
                1. 0
                  14 May 2019 13: 09
                  You know - AND IT IS INTERESTING TO ME too !!! You have no idea what mountain of sources I have to look through when preparing such materials. Ranging from Wikipedia and Foggothen Weppons to ministry sites and company sites. Somewhere you find a paragraph, somewhere two ... If the source seems to me worthy of attention, I use it. If it is a "live journal" - usually not. Also with books and operating instructions. What will give them a copy or a cover photo. What have I read this? Therefore, a prefabricated hodgepodge turns out. I always laugh when I receive letters like yours - how little I have in my texts. Form - yes mine is 90-100% Content ... everything, as a rule, is someone else's. Taken somewhere. The conclusions are mine (and even then not always). So I'm not inventing anything for this, you can be calm. Here are the sources ... they can fail in some way. Again, even their sources. I try not to use ours.
                  1. 0
                    14 May 2019 13: 33
                    A lot of words, and a complete lack of specificity

                    So come up, I come up with nothing

                    then please name the source from which you learned that "The most successful were the developments of two firms:" Mauser "and" Erma ""
                    I will be pleased to get to know him, there is surely something else interesting to be found.
                    1. +1
                      14 May 2019 18: 01
                      Probably there. But ... I do not get paid for help to those interested in interesting sources. The collective farm is over!
                      1. 0
                        15 May 2019 13: 19
                        what do you get paid for? for articles with questionable information "from third parties"?
        3. +1
          14 May 2019 09: 28
          No results were found for http://i63.tinypic.com/1604zr.jpg.

          Recommendations:

          Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
          Try using other keywords.
          Try using more popular keywords.
      2. 0
        6 August 2019 13: 19
        Well, you weren’t either)
  27. 0
    13 May 2019 20: 22
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    The strikes on the Kalashnikov and in the AR-15 can also easily break or bend themselves.

    The strikers are made of a metal alloy (solid solution of metals), possessing elasticity, and a samarium or neodymium magnet is made of a chemical (intermetallic) compound, as fragile as ceramics.
    1. -1
      14 May 2019 15: 11
      Quote: Operator
      The strikers are made of a metal alloy (solid solution of metals), possessing elasticity, and a samarium or neodymium magnet is made of a chemical (intermetallic) compound, as fragile as ceramics.

      I offered you a semi-free shutter magnet from samarium-cobalt when you got completely confused in my shutter and started to confuse it with Kalashnikov's shutter. With magnets, it looks simpler than half-free shutters with more complex kinematic connections in operation. So that you unload your brains and relax. But it will work perfectly if you make such a shutter correctly. I just do not want to draw how to do it, because it is too simple.
      You’re confused how my half-free shutter works. In my sketch above, with a rotating half-free shutter, it can be seen that I have a half-free shutter that uses a kinematic chain to slow down the backward, working on the same physical principle of slowing down as traditional half-free lever shutters, and roller shutters. The bolt carrier held by the return spring of the weapon moves back a greater distance than the bolt itself. Due to this, the necessary resistance is achieved for the correct operation of the half-free shutter. But this design works when the shutter rotates when moving backward, in contrast to the adopted lever and roller, where the movement is rectilinear.
      Thanks to such a design solution for the shutter, this semi-free shutter has fewer parts in the structure, it is more reliable, the parts work in more favorable modes, the layout of such a shutter is more rational in relation to modern high-precision weapons, the shutter itself can easily be made more compact and lightweight, or while maintaining weight as with a roller or lever, the details of my shutter can be made larger and more solid, durable and reliable in operation. This is a more rational scheme of a semi-free shutter than roller and lever. But it is not used anywhere in the USSR / Russia and in the West. This is explained in Soviet textbooks on the design of weapons by the fact that, ostensibly, it is more difficult to manufacture, which has long been not true. When oblique grooves and oblique screw slots from the late 40s in the USSR were used in weapons manufactured by the most massive series, and the problem has long been solved. In the Kalashnikov assault rifle, such nodes are present in the bolt frame; in more modern weapons, they are also used more widely than other schemes. Today, Russia produces submachine guns with gas automatic control, which are even more complex in design, and there are even more difficult to manufacture screw pairs, and there are no problems. And in the United States, such weapons have been mass-produced since the 30s — even earlier than in the USSR. No problem today to release such a semi-free shutter. It will be cheaper and easier to produce up-to-date modern schemes. I do not write about the ancient and obsolete, because we are talking about something else. The problem is that they are too lazy to turn on their brains and come up with a competent semi-free shutter working during rotation. I found this mistake of the Russian weapons school and here is my sketch of the shutter above, so that even the distant open their eyes and turn on their brains. Otherwise, tomorrow he will appear in the USA, Germany, China, and again we will buy foreign weapons and admire its accuracy and ease, if they still sell it to Russia. Roller shutters have a number of drawbacks that this shutter lacks. Levers of a traditional design - similarly. And I got stuck with minuses local stubborn trolls.
      The principle of additional friction when resting on a sloping surface (a helical surface of rotation relative to the reciprocating movement of the bolt of a weapon) my bolt also uses along with the kinematic chain described above in the message. He has common nuances in working with the semi-free shutter of Kalashnikov PP, but he is better by head. In this shutter, all the forces are used to slow down its retreat - both kinematics and emphasis on the beveled surface. And everything is tuned to absolutely any small arms cartridge. It is enough to play with the corners of Alpha and Beta, and the long screw section in front of the shutter part, change the stiffness of the return spring so that it works correctly with any ammunition from pistol, to semi-free bolt rifles for any purpose.
      1. 0
        14 May 2019 18: 30
        The liner in the gate of the samarium-cobalt intermetallic will also crack after the first strike of the bolt carrier in the shutter.
        1. -1
          14 May 2019 18: 42
          Quote: Operator
          The liner in the gate of the samarium-cobalt intermetallic will also crack after the first strike of the bolt carrier in the shutter.

          Place the magnet in a plastic shell made of viscous plastic (such as high molecular weight polyethylene) holding 300 degrees, like the magnet itself. The magnet must be structurally placed so that it does not heat up to 300 degrees - protect it from overheating and due to demagnetization, which is not a problem with the current level of thermal insulation materials. The thinnest and lightest materials are produced in the 21st century, which allow even a cosmonaut in outer space to be isolated from external temperature with a thickness of several millimeters. impacts. Place a plastic capsule with a magnet inside the steel part of the bolt or a fixed part of the weapon, depending on the chosen technical solution. In order for the plastic container to be uniformly pressed against the steel cup with the entire surface of its walls, and there would be no local point and other local stresses that could cause the magnet to crack under shock loads even through the walls of the polymer protective capsule. Properly damp the magnet, in other words, if it is not possible to add sufficient viscosity to it by adding alloying elements to the magnet alloy. Draw in scrap such a simple scheme and layout options for such weapons.
          1. 0
            14 May 2019 19: 10
            The claimed magnetic force for any magnet corresponds to the case of the interaction of two magnets with each other. The magnitude of the magnetic force of the magnet surface when it interacts with a ferromagnet of the steel type is 5-6 times smaller. By placing the magnet inside the damping polymer liner, you reduce the magnetic force a few more times.

            The small thickness of the thermal insulation of a spacesuit is determined by the complete absence of heat transfer between the spacesuit and the space vacuum. In ground weapons there is no vacuum by definition.
            1. -1
              14 May 2019 19: 14
              Quote: Operator
              By placing the magnet inside the damping polymer insert, you will reduce the magnetic force by several times.

              There, a wall a fraction of a millimeter thick comes out, even if you completely close the magnet with a capsule. And about magnetic circuits I wrote below. Everything is there to make such a semi-free shutter today. If you need him. As for me, with a mechanical kinematic connection, as described above, it’s still more familiar in weapons. And with a magnet - this is so, at the level of pampering, although it can work with a magnet.
            2. -1
              14 May 2019 19: 16
              Quote: Operator
              The small thickness of the thermal insulation of a spacesuit is determined by the complete absence of heat transfer between the spacesuit and the space vacuum. In ground weapons there is no vacuum by definition.

              Again, the middle of the 20th century. Today everything is and today is not the middle of the 20th century. It is enough to open the Internet and read. There are materials without a vacuum that do an excellent job of this.
        2. -1
          14 May 2019 19: 09
          ... I heard anything about magnetic cores, and how cool are such alloys? The magnet can be correctly placed in the weapon and will slow down with the highest efficiency at the right time the shutter when moving back. The shutter becomes the simplest - reciprocating, without complex kinematic relationships, as in mechanical semi-free shutters. But metal will be attracted to weapons. A little, and only in the immediate vicinity of the magnet inside such a weapon, but the effect of the magnet will manifest itself.
          1. +1
            14 May 2019 21: 32
            In the magnetic core, direct contact of ferromagnets without gaskets between them of diamagnetic materials - polymers, aerogels, etc. is necessary.

            The bearing capacity of an airgel layer with a thickness of about 10 mm is zero, so it will break (if brittle) or shrink before the magnetic liner hits the gate (if resilient) when the gate hits the receiver or the barrel. To fully absorb the magnetic liner on all axes, a polymer with a thickness of at least 2 mm is required - see the first paragraph.
            1. -1
              14 May 2019 21: 48
              Quote: Operator
              In the magnetic core, direct contact of ferromagnets without gaskets between them of diamagnetic materials - polymers, aerogels, etc. is necessary.

              The airgel will break (if fragile) or shrink before the magnetic liner hits the bolt (if elastic) when the bolt hits the receiver or barrel. For full depreciation of the magnetic liner along all axes, a polymer with a thickness of at least 2 mm is required - see the first paragraph.

              all these problems are easily solved and are not worth such a detailed discussion. A capsule can be made in the form of a glass. A magnet in the shape of a reverse truncated cone, so as not to fall out, was held in a glass by its shape, evenly distributing the load on the entire tapering surface of the truncated cone of its body.
              There are lots of practical solutions. We are now discussing a spherical horse in a vacuum. In practice, everything is done. There will be contact, the magnetic circuit can even be applied where necessary. Airgel is a thin heat-insulating barrier between the barrel and the magnet, and not the supporting part of the structure, like the aluminum inserts inside the polymer fore-end of the M-16 rifle, only small in area, because the magnet is smaller than the fore-end.
              The Chinese or Japanese will make such a weapon without any problems, or the Koreans. They love know-how and magnets. laughing

              A semi-free shutter with a mechanical kinematic coupling, which uses the moment of rotation of the shutter, rather than external levers and rollers, is more relevant. The Germans have long been selling their roller shutter. Today you can do better. I posted the above drawings on how this might work. He suggested the optimal scheme for high-precision modern weapons, where everything is optimally arranged and there are no unnecessary details in the design that affect the reliability of such a shutter. With competent technical implementation, such a shutter self-centers in the receiver and does not hang out, causing unnecessary disturbances during operation, affecting the accuracy of the shot. There, if by mind, then not only Alpha and Beta, but also a bunch of other angles must be taken into account in order to do perfectly.
            2. -1
              15 May 2019 00: 16
              Quote: Operator
              In the magnetic core, direct contact of ferromagnets without gaskets between them of diamagnetic materials - polymers, aerogels, etc. is necessary.

              The bearing capacity of an airgel layer with a thickness of about 10 mm is zero, so it will break (if brittle) or shrink before the magnetic liner hits the gate (if resilient) when the gate hits the receiver or the barrel. To fully absorb the magnetic liner on all axes, a polymer with a thickness of at least 2 mm is required - see the first paragraph.

              So the magnet does not heat up, the magnet sits clearly in its place laughing laughing laughing
              1. +1
                15 May 2019 01: 00
                "Block with flexible cable" laughing

                The anti-mass shutter, hitting a samarium-cobalt magnet, immediately break it.
                1. -1
                  15 May 2019 01: 28
                  Quote: Operator
                  The anti-mass shutter, hitting a samarium-cobalt magnet, immediately break it.

                  If done correctly, then the glass will not break.

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