Submachine gun: yesterday, today, tomorrow. For every taste!

89
So, we saw that the samples of the third generation machine guns began to be developed at the end of the Second World War, and somewhere at the beginning of the 60's they were put into service. True, the old approaches still made themselves felt. The military believed that they needed (if they still needed them at all!) A single sample of a submachine gun. Yes, it was so in 30, but already the war showed that two different submachine guns for the same cartridge can coexist in the same army - PPSH-41 and PPS-43. But even in the German army, the Sturmgever-44 did not completely replace MR-40. Almost all the submachine guns of the post-war years of release, including the famous Uzi, were “united”, so to speak. However, new technical solutions (rolling shutter, placing the store in the handle and folding stock) unleashed the hands of designers, and they created a lot of truly remarkable samples, which, one can say so, simply glorified this third generation of submachine guns. A lot was written about Uzi, but there were other, almost equally interesting technically, samples of this weapons.

And to create new designs started everywhere. So at the beginning of 60's, they were not just a lot, but a lot. For every taste and price. Although the choice of cartridges, as before, was small. Basically, all new PPs were created under the 9-mm “Parabellum” cartridge. And it’s understandable: they don’t seek good from good, as they say.



Submachine gun: yesterday, today, tomorrow. For every taste!


Danish "Madsen"


"Madsen" M45. An example of the original, but not too successful design. The fact is that he did not have the usual cocking handle. Her role in the M45 submachine gun was playing ... a fluted barrel casing, similar to a pistol. Beneath it was a return spring wrapped around the trunk. It is clear that the movement of massive parts, including the bolt and barrel cover, could not but affect the rate of fire. But the cocking of such a “huge automatic pistol” could not but cause certain difficulties, and besides, the spring overheated from the heated barrel!

Already in 1945, the Danish "Madsen" М45 appeared, then it was replaced by the М46, М50 and М53 models. Moreover, the 1950 model of the year was quite similar to our PPP, except that it did not have a casing on the barrel. But she didn’t have a straight but horn shop. The 1950 model of the year was so good that it was tested in England for adoption, but the Sterling still liked the military more.


“Madsen” M50 - mm 9x19

"It is badly made, but firmly sewn" - French MAT 49


The French immediately after the war announced a competition for a new software, it was required that the new weapon was completely French! No sooner said than done! Thus was born the MAT 49, about which everyone said that he was "done wrong, but well stitched." There are no innovations, except perhaps the reclining handle, which played the role of a receiver for the store. That is, it was held not by the store, but by this handle, so the loosening and misalignment of the stores were excluded. The PP itself was entirely metallic. Not an ounce of plastic or wood. Heavy: weight with a store 4,17 kg. But yours! And very durable. And all the "gaps are closed," even the window of the store, when it is folded, closes a special bar. So it can be sprinkled with sand and earth. Inside, nothing will fall. It is not surprising that in the former French colonies it is still used!


MAT 49

FMK-3. Argentina


Since 1943, the new PP began to develop ... Argentina. A number of designs were created there, the result of which was the FMK-3 (1974) (article on the July 23 BO 2018) and which had a magazine in the handle and a “ram gate”, and a folding front handle was provided .


FMK-3

"Carl Gustaf" M / 45. Sweden


In the same year, 1945 offered its own submachine gun “Karl Gustav” m / 45 to Sweden. And everything in it was traditional, except for one - the newly developed store for 36 cartridges (50-charging shop from Suomi was used first) with a double row of cartridges. The Swedes made it extremely reliable. So reliable that the CIA delivered them even to its special forces in Vietnam during the Vietnam War. They were sold to Denmark, Ireland and Egypt (!), Where their licensed production was established. It is in service today, and the Swedes are not going to replace it with anything else. The limit of perfection, in their opinion, has been reached.


Submachine gun m / 45

About the Israeli "Uzi" and the Czech CZ 23


We talked a bit about “Uzi” in the past material. Here you can only add what weapons historian Chris Shant writes about him: “The Gala was greatly impressed by the Czech CZ 23 submachine gun, which used a bolt that attacked the barrel ...” He then wrote: “This pushed Gala to create more long gate, two-thirds of which are hollow cylinder ". Since the shutter length should be 10-12 cm and the return stroke 15 cm, it turns out that with the traditional scheme the length of the receiver will be no less than 27 cm. The German MZ-40 had, for example, the total length 68 cm and the trunk 25 length, see Y Uzi, the total length of 47 cm, and the length of the trunk - 26!

All this is so, the only question is, where did he get the data that everything was exactly the way he described it? Standing behind and watched? In general, even if everything was exactly like this, there is nothing wrong with that. Just a smart designer should “steal” all the best from everyone more, and without inventing a bicycle, rationally combine all this in his design. However, in books on stories fiction weapons like "he thought he was impressed, he copied ..." should be smaller, and there should be more accurate document-based facts. Rather, they should dominate. For example, there is an archive of the Russian Military History Museum of Artillery, Engineers and Communication Troops of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. There are all the documents on the development and adoption of the rifle Captain Mosin. Based on them, there was a whole cycle of articles on HE, but there are still people who, with perseverance, worthy of better use, continue to write about the “barrel of Nagant”, and many other absurdities. We see the same thing with regard to the Kalashnikov automaton, although all the “dots above i” in its history are set a long time ago. But this is so ... had a word.

Returning to the “our” topic of post-war machine pistols, it should be noted that compactness was one of the important requirements for them. This trend was caught by Yaroslav Holechek and Uziel Gal. And it was also understood by the Italian designer Domenico Salz, who in the year 1959 offered his submachine gun "Beretta" RM-12. There were fewer new products in it than in CZ 23 and Uzi, but more than in m / 45.

PM-12 "Beretta". Italy



PM-12. Left view.

In it, the bolt is on the trunk at ¾ of its length. Although the barrel box has a cylindrical shape, there are wavy depressions on its inner surface - mud traps due to which PM12 dirt and sand are not terrible. The reloading handle is on the left. It is larger than that of other samples and advanced far forward, to the very front sight. The submachine gun, like the Thompson 1928, has two pistol grip arms, so there is no need to hold a weapon for the magazine. Butt folding, which is also very convenient. Convenient and safety in the handle below the trigger guard. When the handle is wrapped around with a hand, it is squeezed and only then can it be fired. True, the Italian army and police bought this submachine gun only in limited quantities and only for their special forces. But on the other hand, the commercial success of the new Beretta exceeded all expectations: it was sold to the countries of the Middle East, to Africa and Southeast Asia. In Brazil and Indonesia, its licensed release from right-selling in local markets was mastered, and the Belgian company FN and Brazilian Taurus began to produce the PM12S modification.


PM-12. Right side view with butt folded to the side.

Copies of the Soviet PPS-43


It should be noted that after the war, many foreign companies were so inspired by the success of the Soviet PPS-43 that they began to copy it in the most shameless way. For example, the Finns released M / 44 - a submachine gun, which was a copy of the Soviet PPS adapted for the 9 × 19 mm cartridge, and started its production at the Tikkakoski enterprise. By the way, in Poland their production was also organized from 1944 to 1955 for the year under the name “PPS wz.1943 / 1952”. That's just instead of a metal folding butt it was equipped with wooden, attached to the receiver tightly.


Submachine gun m / 44

After the war, its creator, Willy Daus, moved to Spain, and with the support of German designers from Mauser, who also ended up there after the war, began the production of the same submachine gun called Dux M53 in Oviedo’s arsenal. In 1953, the DUX M53 submachine gun was adopted by the border guards of the Federal Republic of Germany, and this weapon was delivered to the country from Spain. Its weight was 2,8 kg, length 0,83 m, rate of fire 600 rds / min. He fired 9-mm cartridges from a 36-charging magazine. The store was therefore straightforward, and that’s where the differences ended. The difference between the Finnish and Spanish samples was also in the number of holes in the barrel casing: the Spaniards had 7, the Finns had 6. The most "modern" model was the "Dux" М59, again received the "horn" shop. It was possible to fire fire from them only in lines. It was planned to put it into service with the Bundeswehr, but it was not possible to achieve this, so it was released in small quantities.

To be continued ...
89 comments
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  1. +10
    April 24 2019 18: 42
    Vyacheslav Olegovich - sincere thanks! hi
    I knew about "Dux" for a long time, but I was not familiar with the details of its production. And produced in Egypt "Carl Gustav" seemed to be called that way - "Port Said". I remember in the chronicles of the 50-60s, from which regions of the world there were no photographs of any mercenaries with this "Karl", some kind of universal love. wink
  2. +3
    April 24 2019 18: 45
    In my non-professional opinion, the cartridge 7,62 * 25 from the TT, the PPSh was still undeservedly ignored.
    1. +9
      April 24 2019 18: 47
      You're right. Further on this will be. Read the series ...
    2. +3
      April 24 2019 19: 15
      [img = | 9pair] [/ img]
      Interesting about 9х19 \ 7.62тт
      1. +2
        April 24 2019 19: 22
        I read it all, thanks!
      2. +2
        April 24 2019 19: 50
        on this table there are more questions than answers ... however, comrades there unsubscribed about it.
      3. +5
        April 24 2019 20: 17
        Quote: slowpokemonkey
        Interesting about 9х19 \ 7.62тт

        The specific energy of CTs at 100m is 7,52 j / mm ^ 2, for MP-40 / 28 5,4-5,5J / mm ^ 2.
        That is, penetration is almost a quarter higher.
        Yes, and flatness is better due to the lower weight of the bullet.
      4. +4
        April 24 2019 20: 36
        Pistol cartridge 9 * 19 at 500 meters distance? belay
        Yes, he just will not fly so much !!! request fellow
        I don’t know who made this table, but game !!! WILD WILD !!! fellow laughing
        Farther than 100 meters from the target it was difficult for them to get into something, and at such a distance of 500 m, it is unlikely to inflict acceptable damage. request Yes
        1. 0
          April 24 2019 21: 28
          A 9x19 pistol cartridge from not a pistol barrel, but from a 10 "-16" inch barrel will quite have the energy indicated in the table at the range indicated in the table.

          It will only be possible to get somewhere according to the theory of probability (or even not probability).

          Unfortunately, a crazy "pistol" bullet at 500 meters is very, very serious.
          1. -1
            April 25 2019 09: 03
            Quote: Horse, people and soul
            A 9x19 pistol cartridge from not a pistol barrel, but from a 10 "-16" inch barrel will quite have the energy indicated in the table at the range indicated in the table.

            It will only be possible to get somewhere according to the theory of probability (or even not probability).

            Unfortunately, a crazy "pistol" bullet at 500 meters is very, very serious.

            A pistol bullet from 100 meters is already an injury effect. Best case scenario.
      5. +1
        April 25 2019 14: 36

        The devil is in the details. I didn’t think that Popenker was looking one-sidedly at things related to weapons-related issues.
    3. -3
      April 24 2019 21: 38
      K-50, actually the TT 7,62 cartridge is more correct than the Mauser 7,63
      1. 0
        April 25 2019 07: 04
        Quote: Astra wild
        K-50, actually the TT 7,62 cartridge is more correct than the Mauser 7,63

        I know, but in our country it has the designation shown by me.
  3. +5
    April 24 2019 19: 04
    Another portion of yummy!

    Thank you!

    Yes
    1. +6
      April 24 2019 19: 23
      Following will be two more, they are ready ...
  4. +5
    April 24 2019 19: 24
    good ...Thank. Hello everyone hi
    "Carl Gustaf" M / 45. Sweden
    PM-12 "Beretta". Italy
    Submachine gun m / 44
  5. +1
    April 24 2019 19: 37
    Oh, I don’t know ... Visually, from the post-war PP I always liked the Czech "scorpion" ....
    1. +3
      April 24 2019 21: 19
      Moreover, the new Scorpio EVO 3.

  6. +2
    April 24 2019 19: 41
    Thanks for the very high-quality series. hi
  7. -1
    April 24 2019 19: 41
    Since the mid-20th century, almost all well-known submachine guns were produced with shops without rebuilding. The supply of a cartridge into the chamber from the store of such submachine guns characteristically swings the weapon when firing from side to side. One of the best western submachine guns for such a store is the German HK MP-5, which is distinguished by fairly good accuracy and accuracy due to the design of the bolt and the general design of the weapon. But even the HK MP-5 still sways from side to side, even with an emphasis on the butt. And without emphasis on the butt, and even if we shoot from a light pistol with such a magazine under heavy modern large-caliber cartridges, the swaying even more significantly interferes with accurate firing at a high pace.

    Later, experts seriously leaned on the accuracy and accuracy of fire from submachine guns, and in the 21st century, an experimental Kriss Vector submachine gun appeared under the Glokov magazine, with a direct single cartridge feed. This submachine gun has the bore axis at the height of the shooter's right wrist. The so-called "recoil shoulder" in the submachine gun is practically absent, there are no lateral nods when feeding cartridges into the chamber from the Glokov magazine with rebuilding and direct single feed. There is only a slight sagging of the weapon when firing, typical for such magazines, which is much easier to control the arrow. Light shot shells fly out at an angle to the vertical and take the submachine gun a little to the left, but this is already minuscule compared to the problems of standard submachine guns and pistols with a magazine without rebuilding. The Kriss Vector submachine gun is considered high precision. Its shutter is a bit unusual. But we are not talking about the bolt, but about a store with a direct feed, which allows you to shoot even in bursts with a direct front sight, without alternating nods to the left and right. The submachine gun is very accurate and accurate, allowing for quick aiming and shooting compared to previous generations of submachine guns. These are the first steps. It will be even more fun when such submachine guns are brought to mind. A magazine with a direct single feed of cartridges, a low location of the barrel, cartridges with a reduced flange of the case, ideally balanced in the centers of mass, movable automatic weapons, well-thought-out ergonomics and weapon design - this will be the 21st century, the century of high-precision and effective weapons.



    1. +3
      April 24 2019 21: 02
      A story about him is planned in one of the following materials ...
      1. -4
        April 24 2019 21: 41
        Quote: kalibr
        A story about him is planned in one of the following materials ...

        What is there to tell? The design is a little bit crooked. She twists slightly when shooting. But even in this version, the submachine gun turned out to be highly accurate.
        1. The barrel at the height of the wrist is for pistols, so it throws up less when firing while holding a pistol in your hand, without stopping in the butt. For precision pistols, a handle angle is selected to relax the muscles of the arm holding the gun, and the gun itself was correctly positioned in the hand - aimed at the target so that the muscular effort would not interfere with accurately shooting. And the barrel is planted lower, ideally at the height of the wrist, in order to minimize the gun’s jump up at the moment of the shot under the influence of recoil, and thereby increase the accuracy and accuracy of the gun.
        2. When the shoulder rests the arrow in the butt - this only complicates the design of the submachine gun. The right hand of the arrow, when resting on the butt, nevertheless bends more strongly at the elbow and the position of the wrist is lower than when holding the weapon along the pistol, and not on the longitudinal axis of the weapon - the weapon rests on the shoulder with the butt, the hand performs another function with this hold, and the meaning of this solutions with the butt is not very clear.
        3. The barrel should be set low, but it is enough to execute the barrel in line with the bolt box and butt - above the trigger. USM can be made lower, without compromising the rigidity of the receiver. A more traditional design will regain the necessary rigidity without overcomplicating and overloading the design of such weapons.
        4. The lock in this submachine gun used a new, semi-free, unusual design. But the traditional upright shutter of a submachine gun with a normal layout for a weapon with a butt looks more interesting. Only the upright shutter is ideally balanced in design and made easier, semi-free or with locking. To make a cartridge with a reduced flange, which in Russia have not yet been developed, but in the West are being intensively developed for promising weapons from the 90s of the 20th century and are being produced. The shutter of this submachine gun was designed for a low barrel - at the height of the wrist of the weapon holding the hand, for firing without a butt. And the butt was attached later. Without a butt, he should shoot better than traditional submachine guns.
        5.And here is a store with a rebuild with direct feed of a cartridge for a submachine gun firing from a closed bolt - this is very good. Shooting is carried out with the shutter closed - less dirt flies outside to the weapons store. Modern shops with rebuilding in one row have learned to work well, without delay.
        6. The semi-free shutter of this submachine gun so that the barrel is mounted on the submachine gun motionless is good for the accuracy of the submachine gun. The semi-free shutter allows you to make the shutter of the submachine gun and the submachine gun itself easier. The free bolt is harder to do so that it does not have time to roll back until the bullet leaves the barrel of the submachine gun at the time of the shot.

        Under the butt, you can make a simpler, more classic and ergonomic design, but it will shoot no worse. The whole point is the direct feed of the cartridge and the excellent dynamic balance of all moving parts of the automation and the weapon itself.
    2. +4
      April 24 2019 21: 34
      Major, you are so vividly talking about MP5 that I had a question, but did you personally use it?
      1. +3
        April 24 2019 21: 39
        Yes, I am also very interested to know this. Your personal impressions, so to speak. I did not hold in my hands ...
        1. +3
          April 24 2019 21: 52
          I was holding in my hands only the civilian version without an autofire with an oar and a pseudo-extinguisher, which is why the real barrel is two times longer than the original. This trick is for sale, to sell, like a carabiner, according to local law. The weapons were prepared in the store after import for initial registration and at that time it could not be bought.

          Honestly, I was hoping that he would be somehow lighter than Kalash, and, well, hell.

          Heavy piece of iron for a pistol cartridge. The oar does not add up. But because of the weight, they say, is not Kalashmatit.
      2. +3
        April 24 2019 22: 03
        Hello, Beautiful Stranger! Between us, there are very few users.
        1. +2
          April 26 2019 14: 55
          Hello, St. Petersburg poet. You have something kind of romantic present, and women like it
          1. 0
            April 26 2019 17: 26
            Alas, the Beautiful Stranger. At a certain time, romance dissipates like fog over the Neva, being replaced by the leaden abominations of life.
      3. -4
        April 24 2019 22: 06
        Quote: Astra wild
        Major, you are so vividly talking about MP5 that I had a question, but did you personally use it?

        I studied at school when you skipped it. He shot a lot of different weapons. And very many shot from this submachine gun, it is very widespread in the world. No problem finding and chatting. Even on this site there should be such people. I mean the fully automatic version of this PP 9 mm caliber, with a standard magazine, and not the 5,6 mm caliber carbines based on this PP. There are a lot of videos how this PP shoots in different shooting modes from all angles is on the network. He leads left and right - you can’t deceive physics. The Hekler und Koch MP-5 submachine gun is characterized by increased accuracy and accuracy in comparison with traditional software with two-row shops without rebuilding. In short bursts of 2-3 rounds, it still turns out to hold this PP with both hands with an emphasis on the butt. But he still begins to throw it left and right due to the design of the store. With a single-row magazine, or with a two-row one-line lane, this software would be even more accurate and perfect.
        For the police, where it is mainly used - it would be just right, so as not to touch the stray bullet of civilians. But it was developed so long ago when similar stores had not yet been used in software, and it has the usual software store for those years without rebuilding.
        The PCA does not throw to the sides, and Chris Vector does not throw, because the cartridge feed is direct. Chris Vector is a very accurate PP.
        For handgun pistols without focus on the butt, the magazine design is even more critical and even more affects the efficiency and accuracy of the fire.
        1. +2
          April 24 2019 22: 52
          I mean the fully automatic version of this PP 9 mm caliber, with a standard magazine, and not the 5,6 mm caliber carbines based on this PP.


          It was not a .22LR carbine, but quite an ordinary, non-Orthodox 9x19. Only without auto fire. With a two-row magazine without rebuilding 20 rounds in the kit. Those who need 30 rounds of ammunition buy extra.

          laughing

          Shop (transparent!) For MP5 9x19 two-row without rebuilding on the spare parts website for Heckler.

          https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/10-Round-Magazine-Translucent-9mm-HK-MP5-74p18740.htm
          1. +2
            April 24 2019 23: 04
            The Hekler und Koch MP-5 submachine gun is characterized by increased accuracy and accuracy in comparison with traditional software with two-row shops without rebuilding.


            Chetarzhu ... oh, this major theorist.

            laughing

            10 round magazine for MP5 double row without rebuilding.



            http://www.armslist.com/posts/7162461/phoenix-arizona-magazines-for-sale--genuine-hk-mp5-german-30-round-9x19-magazines


            Shops to MP5 9x19 two-row without rebuilding.
            1. -4
              April 24 2019 23: 15
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              Chetarzhu ...



              Magazine for 10 rounds for MP5 two-row without rebuilding.

              Instead of trolling, re-read my post again, where I repeatedly indicate which store is in MP-5, and which store is Chriss Vector.
              1. +4
                April 24 2019 23: 19
                A lot of text and reduced flanges. Insanely a lot of.
                Write an article if you wish.

                wassat
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                2. -3
                  April 25 2019 09: 45
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  A lot of text and reduced flanges. Crazy a lot.
                  Write an article if you wish.

                  Not for you, a troll from the Baltic states, I am writing that you flood here and troll under each of my comments. You choke directly under my every comment laughing And for those who want to understand why Russian weapons are worse accuracy and accuracy in comparison with the best Western models designed more competently and rationally, with knowledge of fundamental physical laws.
                  The Russians started firing from Western weapons, and now in Russia, Russian weapons raise many questions. Often, a cursory glance is enough for me to see the reason for the poor accuracy and accuracy of the weapon, and other unimportant characteristics of the weapon.
                  And you decided that I have nothing to do and I'm writing here. I have something to do, so here I am writing. There is no weapons culture in Russia, people don’t shoot and weapons don’t understand. The overwhelming minority shoots, but they shoot too little, because they are placed in severe restrictive conditions by laws in force since Soviet times. Normally they shoot to learn how to understand shooting from weapons and weapons, only athletes. Even among professional military men and officers, I know people who do not like to shoot and do not understand weapons.
                  For those who are interested, I spread all the physics of the shooting process and the design of weapons affecting this shooting physics. To know why one weapon is less heapy and accurate than another, and why it is more difficult to get from a Russian pistol than from a western one, which is in service in the USA and NATO countries. And I write how to deal with it. Many people think that the accuracy of a weapon depends only on the quality of the cartridge and the thickness of the barrel. But the accuracy and effectiveness of weapons have much more to do in the design of weapons. 5 years ago I wrote the same thing on this site. Many cheer patriots and local populists do not like this approach. They mistakenly believe that a weapon starts to shoot accurately when you praise it, even if the design of such a weapon does not allow you to make an accurate shot from it. But I have a different cheer-patriotism, this is when the Russian army is armed with the best weapons that exceed Western standards.
                  You live in the country of NATO, you have Russophobes in power in the Baltic states and you, apparently, really do not like what the Russians write in Russian, how to teach Russian weapons to shoot and hit well. But these are your problems. Your politicians themselves have chosen Russophobia and neo-Nazism as a state ideology. And in Russia, they will learn how to do weapons well when they move away from Soviet masses and come to understand that every barrel in a war is worth its weight in gold, and each barrel must fall in and be effective as far as modern weapons technology allows. You really don't like it. I understood you and made conclusions. But I am not writing to you or in the Baltic states.
                  1. 0
                    April 26 2019 14: 59
                    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                    And for those who want to understand why Russian weapons are worse accuracy and accuracy in comparison with the best Western models designed more competently and rationally, with knowledge of fundamental physical laws.

                    The sweeping okhayut Russian weapons does not do you honor.
                    1. -1
                      April 26 2019 16: 47
                      Quote: Tank Hard
                      The sweeping okhayut Russian weapons does not do you honor.

                      A retarded weapon that reduces the chances of a soldier surviving to praise an even more harmful occupation. I wrote in great detail what the lag of Russian pistols is from modern Western ones. This is not indiscriminate oohai, but specific design flaws that need to be addressed.
                      1. 0
                        April 26 2019 20: 55
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        This is not indiscriminate oohai, but specific design flaws that need to be addressed.

                        Reading your posts and comments, one gets the impression that it is "indiscriminate blundering". However, this is your opinion ...
                      2. +1
                        April 26 2019 23: 28
                        Quote: Tank Hard
                        Reading your posts and comments, one gets the impression that it is "indiscriminate blundering". However, this is your opinion ...

                        I am not engaged in "indiscriminate moaning", I name specific shortcomings and ways to solve them.
                        Russian pistols chambered for 9x21 mm with a magazine without restructuring swings and turns left and right when shooting. Western pistols hold exactly the front sight. The effectiveness of Western pistols from this is higher.

                        I propose to get rid of the horizontal pendulum in the magazine, to make a "self-cleaning" magazine with rebuilding in one row, from which cartridges are fed in a completely straight line into the chamber - along the aiming line of the pistol. The pistol will not swing left-right when firing and will not swing to the sides. This is a serious drawback, because it is much more difficult to bring the pistol horizontally to the shooter than vertically. Those who got rid of this pendulum immediately raise the class of the pistol. The rate of fire and accuracy will increase.

                        Further, to raise the characteristics of the gun even higher, I propose to switch to a more advanced cartridge with a reduced sleeve flange, such:


                        This is the same Russian 9x21 mm, but with a reduced sleeve flange. Throw out all excess metal from the sleeve, and slightly reduce the flange. The cartridge will become more perfect and the quality of firing from a magazine self-loading pistol will rise higher only by improving the pistol cartridge sleeve and its shape. This is a free upgrade that only requires re-calculation of the liner.

                        I also propose to improve the movable casing-shutter of the gun in order to minimize the folding back of the gun and nod forward with the reciprocating movement of the casing-shutter of the gun when shooting. To do this, distribute the mass of the pistol shutter along the movable shutter-casing evenly along the entire length of the shutter, and try to make the shutter as short as possible. In terms of height, the center of mass of the pistol shutter must be exactly at the height of the axis of the bore.

                        Move the moving parts of the gun automatics in order to increase the class of fire from the gun. This will increase its accuracy and firing efficiency only by improving the design and balance of weapons. This is a way to improve the gun without reducing the technological tolerances that cannot be reduced for military weapons so that they do not wedge from pollution.
                      3. 0
                        April 27 2019 15: 47
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        I propose to get rid of the horizontal pendulum in the magazine, to make a "self-cleaning" magazine with rebuilding in one row, from which cartridges are fed in a completely straight line into the chamber - along the aiming line of the pistol. The pistol will not swing left-right when firing and will not swing to the sides. This is a serious drawback, because it is much more difficult to bring the pistol horizontally to the shooter than vertically. Those who got rid of this pendulum immediately raise the class of the pistol. The rate of fire and accuracy will increase.

                        Further, to raise the characteristics of the gun even higher, I propose to switch to a more advanced cartridge with a reduced sleeve flange, such:



                        This is the same Russian 9x21 mm, but with a reduced sleeve flange. Throw out all excess metal from the sleeve, and slightly reduce the flange. The cartridge will become more perfect and the quality of firing from a magazine self-loading pistol will rise higher only by improving the pistol cartridge sleeve and its shape. This is a free upgrade that only requires re-calculation of the liner.

                        I also propose to improve the movable casing-shutter of the gun in order to minimize the folding back of the gun and nod forward with the reciprocating movement of the casing-shutter of the gun when shooting. To do this, distribute the mass of the pistol shutter along the movable shutter-casing evenly along the entire length of the shutter, and try to make the shutter as short as possible. In terms of height, the center of mass of the pistol shutter must be exactly at the height of the axis of the bore.

                        Move the moving parts of the gun automatics in order to increase the class of fire from the gun. This will increase its accuracy and firing efficiency only by improving the design and balance of weapons. This is a way to improve the gun without reducing the technological tolerances that cannot be reduced for military weapons so that they do not wedge from pollution.

                        But this is an interesting answer! To my regret, I can’t adequately comment on your opinion, because I’m not competent enough in this matter, but with great interest I would read the competent comments of specialists who (I hope so) are present at VO. And yet (in my opinion) it is important that the dialogue is conducted without mutual insults and rudeness. hi
                      4. 0
                        April 27 2019 16: 08
                        Quote: Tank Hard
                        But this is an interesting answer!

                        I keep writing that the Russian army needs a new, more advanced pistol store. I explain why modern western stores with rebuilding in one row are reliable and pass all military test cycles. A similar store, but already under a rifle sniper cartridge, can go for a Marxman rifle, as an option along with a two-row without rebuilding, and as a more advanced store for a self-loading sniper rifle, with which it is better to use a single-row magazine, which provides a more rigid and accurate receiver design boxes.
                        In the West, since the 2000s, even submachine guns with such stores have been produced. A weapon equipped with such a magazine does not drive when shooting left-right - it is much more perfect and accurate. An adversary with a weapon equipped with a simple magazine without rebuilding a weapon against a modern shooter is a corpse.

                        I am writing about more advanced cartridges with a reduced sleeve flange, which allow for the release of a more advanced, more accurate, heap and light, self-loading and automatic weapons with better automation, allow the use of lighter, more compact bolts and bolt groups for bolt sniper rifles, self-loading and fully automatic weapons.

                        I’m writing about the improvement of the weapon itself. Modern pistols, self-loading sniper rifles, assault rifles can be made in a much more advanced design than their ancestors from the 50s of the 20th century. Sniper bolt rifles, as they should be in the 21st century in order to shoot accurately, I also describe. So that in Russia they produce correct and modern weapons, and not engage in fucking in the 21st century. I’m not writing from a floundering bay. Wake up! lol

                        I do not criticize anything indiscriminately. I offer solutions. I am not a fan of criticizing at all. I criticize when I see that it’s already back ... and it’s time to wake up the sleeping ones intensely.
                      5. -1
                        April 27 2019 21: 42
                        ... A magazine with one-sided rebuilding will not wedge against the ingress of a small amount of dirt if the cartridges slide in the narrowing neck of the magazine not along the narrowing side surfaces of the magazine, but along the triangular guides stamped inside the narrowing neck of the store with a slight rounding at the top. In the West, there are a lot of similar stores with different options for guides in the throat of a store with rebuilding: for sniper rifles, self-loading and automatic pistols, with one, two or three guides on each side, with guides of different shapes, with a different internal profile of the store. The main thing is that the store works, and the supply of cartridge was direct. Like that:


                        Modern store guns usually shoot from a closed bolt and dirt flies less into a store than into old submachine guns that shot from an open bolt.
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. +5
          April 26 2019 15: 22
          Major, you cannot live without rudeness and pride: "I was in school when you were skipping it," but don't you admit the thought that I ALREADY STUDYED, and you were brought to the first grade? It is not yet known who and how attended the school. You do not know my teachers, and I do not know yours. Therefore, we are equal
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. +4
        April 25 2019 20: 31
        Quote: Astra wild
        Major, you are so vividly talking about MP5 that I had a question, but did you personally use it?


        I have good reason to believe that this comrade does not even have a driver’s license. Not that access or even ROX.
        1. -2
          April 25 2019 23: 11
          Quote: bunta
          I have good reason to believe that this comrade does not even have a driver’s license. Not that access or even ROX.

          When I passed the commission, I did not have any problems. On the contrary, everything is good with health, both physical and emotional. I can confirm with my direct presence here.

          How did it happen that in the West pistols with magazines with rebuilding pass all army tests and tests with a bang. Nothing they go crazy. They have been in service with the US Army (the largest army in the world) and other NATO countries since the 80s of the 20th century, police, special services, and are purchased by a bunch of non-aligned states. They have been sold very successfully for more than a decade in the civilian market and the demand for such pistols is many times greater than the demand for absolutely all Russian pistols. Models of pistols with such shops are regularly updated for the military, special services, police of NATO countries, and etc .. In army contests and tests, several models of pistols compete successfully at once with such shops, which all work perfectly. In cartridges with a reduced flange, nothing tears off, as local weapons "experts" suggest here. On the contrary, the most powerful magnum ammunition with such a flange is mass-produced by well-known Western cartridge firms, from which Russia in the 21st century copies cartridges developed in the middle of the 20th century one to one, and now these cartridges are ordered by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. Weapons chambered for cartridges with a reduced flange are purchased by the armies of the NATO bloc and the special services of the West. countries from the end of the 20th century.
          And in Russia at this time, the cartridge of the 19th century is being praised. They promise to make even more modern, light and accurate weapons for it (which are more backward, heavy and inaccurate in comparison with Western weapons of a similar class, even at the level of mathematical calculations, which is confirmed by field tests). The cartridge of the 50s of the 20th century of the Winchester MO company is issued as "modern know-how" for precision weapons. How does this happen?

          The notorious Serdyukov stole several billions from the Ministry of Defense and did not sit down, was transferred to a new job, where he steals a lot more. Maybe the reason is such Serdyukovs who steal too much and simply lie to people that everything is fine? The weapon is backward and the lag is increasing from year to year. I, as a person engaged in shooting from school years, see this. From time to time I come across tests where Russian "high-precision" and other weapons are poured into a single gate to Western models. Even at the level of school physics for grades 5-6 of secondary school I try to explain that the "King is naked". I understand weapons, and I have no problems with mathematics and physics. He learned shooting from qualified trainers. I read a lot at arms. He made weapons with his own hands since graduation school, as soon as he learned to work on all the necessary metal-cutting machines.
          And here local characters have already undertaken to write out certificates for me. I go to the doctors of the medical commission, and not the Internet "experts". Maybe in Russia they just steal too much, instead of getting down to business and stop lying? laughing Soldier lives are dear. When armed with backward weapons begin to die, who will run to the West next to ask for "political asylum"? Dead soldiers are on the conscience of such generals, whom it is normal to steal instead of normally equipping the army.
          1. +1
            April 26 2019 15: 39
            Major, although he has a very nasty character, but in this case: "the lag is increasing from year to year," I agree with you: how regrettable, but in light small arms we have a lag
            1. -1
              April 26 2019 17: 21
              Quote: Astra wild
              Major, although he has a very nasty character, but in this case: "the lag is increasing from year to year," I agree with you: how regrettable, but in light small arms we have a lag

              I wrote what the problem is of modern Russian pistols and what is their lagging behind modern pistols of the NATO armies. I wrote how this is standardly solved. If no one here understands what I wrote about, then this only means that no one here is interested in how to make Russian weapons better and eliminate their shortcomings.

              Russian pistol shops - firewood, if in plain language. The West has stepped forward in this direction. A store without rebuilding for a pistol is to shoot yourself yourself many times in a modern war, where the enemy has more advanced pistols with rebuilding in one row, which shoot more accurately and at a faster pace. Russian soldier - a corpse with an obsolete pistol.

              The second point: increasing the cartridges of 9 mm caliber and making them longer and heavier for self-loading pistols, you need to improve the geometry of the sleeve so that the effectiveness of firing from a pistol does not drop too much, compared to standard cartridges of smaller weight and size.

              The cartridge in a self-loading pistol moves at high speed along a complex path from the magazine to the barrel at the time of reloading. The cartridge has a mass, and the higher the mass of the cartridge relative to the mass of the gun, and the higher the speed of the gun’s automatics, the more naughty and difficult it is for the shooter to quickly aim at the target and fire an accurate shot. Firing accuracy and rate of fire are falling - the gun becomes ineffective. It is necessary to avoid the occurrence of extraneous physical forces when the cartridge moves into the chamber of the gun, which interfere with fast aiming and accurate shooting. To do this, you need to improve the store - go to the store with rebuilding in one row, and improve the cartridge - reduce the mass of the sleeve and improve its shape for such applications, including reducing the sleeve flange.

              As long as people, not robots, shoot pistols, this must be dealt with seriously. And not just to increase the volume of the case and the amount of gunpowder, to stuff new cartridges in two rows into the store, to report on the "unparalleled" weapon in the world and forget.

              And with the shutter of the gun there is a lot of work, and with the design of locking the barrel, and with the trigger, and much more. But the gun store needs to be changed. With such a store, the doctor sent to the morgue.
            2. +2
              April 26 2019 21: 15
              Astra, you are probably a kindergarten teacher: you are reporting to everyone for rudeness.
              Life is not a kindergarten. This kid is obedient in the kindergarten, and in life various boors come across: one is rude from poor education, the other because of a bad character, and there is rudeness from arrogance.
              1. +2
                April 26 2019 21: 21
                However, I agree: rudeness does not adorn our site. There is EVERYTHING without rudeness and boorishness: "I am a magnitude, and others are insignificance" it smears the whole impression of the material
                1. -1
                  April 27 2019 15: 46
                  Quote: vladcub
                  However, I agree: rudeness does not adorn our site. There is EVERYTHING without rudeness and boorishness: "I am a magnitude, and others are insignificance" it smears the whole impression of the material

                  Are you talking to yourself here? I sent a troll. It's my business. The troll cannot calm down on its own. Where is the rudeness? Ham - Horse, lyudovѣd and dushѣlyub (Incitatus), I repeatedly suggested to him not to troll with me. He continues to troll even after I explained to him more than once what I am drowning for and why, and that this is never trolling. He continues his dumb trolling. I added it to my personal list of trolls on the site. I don’t troll and don’t be rude to anyone in the comments. "You need to have a snack, if it seems" hi

                  On business. Because of the primitive non-rebuilt stores ordered by the Moscow region, Russian pistols lag behind their Western counterparts - pistols with rebuilt stores. In western pistols with more sophisticated magazines, the cartridge is fed into the magazine in a straight line in a horizontal plane and there is no physical pendulum swinging and deploying the gun left and right when firing, and preventing accurate and good pace from firing. Western pistols are more advanced than Russian ones. In Russia, the design of the store does not allow the release of a gun on a par with Western. One store to replace.

                  Here are western stores with pistols that have been adopted by the armies of the United States and NATO countries, special services and other law enforcement agencies, these pistols are very popular in the civilian arms market. All steel, not plastic. The military doesn’t trust plastic in pistol shops:

                  Beretta m-92:


                  SIG P226:


                  SIG P320:


                  CZ 75:


                  ... He cited the example of a modern Western submachine gun under a magazine with redevelopment and central supply of a cartridge, but with a magazine from a Glock pistol, made of plastic, where I shoot from him a former special forces soldier and in another video, a well-known sportsman-shooter in the USA. For everyone to see with their own eyes, which gives only the use of a more advanced design store with direct single feed in short-barreled weapons. Stores in modern Russian pistols adopted by the Moscow Defense Forces are oblique, this is their birthmark and this can not be cured by any really existing methods. This western submachine gun has a jamb in construction, it bends slightly down when firing, because the barrel is set low and when firing, under the influence of recoil, the butt and receiver work to bend, the bullets gradually go down when firing. But this is a childhood illness. Under such a store, it is not a problem to create more advanced weapons. The main thing is a store with rebuilding and direct supply of a cartridge that does not drive weapons left-right when shooting ...
                  1. 0
                    April 27 2019 15: 48
                    ... Here is the design of the Glock plastic store, who are interested in plastic gun stores:



                  2. +1
                    April 28 2019 10: 39
                    Whirlwind, do you have megalomania? I addressed my comment to Astra and simultaneously expressed my attitude to what decorates or does not decorate the site.
                    PS
                    Concerning shops and generally pistols. Here I am a complete ZERO: once in my childhood, the district policeman gave me the handle of a PM, and I didn’t communicate with pistols anymore. Unfortunately, after 1917, only those in power and crime freely own weapons, and ordinary citizens cannot
                    1. -1
                      April 28 2019 12: 15
                      Quote: vladcub
                      Whirlwind, do you have megalomania? I addressed my comment to Astra and simultaneously expressed my attitude to what decorates or does not decorate the site.
                      PS
                      Concerning shops and generally pistols. Here I am a complete ZERO: once in my childhood, the district policeman gave me the handle of a PM, and I didn’t communicate with pistols anymore. Unfortunately, after 1917, only those in power and crime freely own weapons, and ordinary citizens cannot

                      This is not a "megalomania", I am posting well-developed solutions that are in service with the technologically advanced countries of the world. The largest and most modern armies in the world are armed with such weapons. Not because they want to, but because such a weapon has more advanced combat characteristics. These are finished serial products. Not my know-how. Pistols for such stores are produced in such quantities that all domestic produced pistols are just a drop in the sea.

                      Periodic lies even on this site strains, when articles are written relying on fake data invented by the hackers themselves. And then all those who consider themselves "experts" in weapons repeat the imposed phrases that "a store without rebuilding in a pistol and a sniper rifle is better", "in the West they do not know how to make weapons," etc. lol After all, these are pistols that enter service with the Russian Army and security forces from other departments. Hanging noodles to illiterate people and arming them with obsolete and imperfect weapons, we send people to slaughter against the enemy armed with more modern and advanced weapons. It is important.

                      A couple of trolls have split up on the site and are flooding under my comments - they do a disservice to all of us. I sent them after explained the essence of such decisions, they continued to troll and be rude, and I sent them. Rudeness is trolling. To send a troll is not rudeness.

                      Weapons culture was killed in the USSR when weapons were taken from people and nuts were tightened. The unarmed population does not understand what weapons are good and what weapons need to be purchased for the army. Entire generations of people illiterate in weapons matters have already grown up. I completely agree with this. People buy Western weapons and wonder why it shoots more accurately, weighs less? This is what propaganda spilled into, which replaced technical knowledge. It is necessary to write about modern solutions. Now, more sophisticated stores are being issued for weapons than was customary in the USSR, and cartridges (bullets, cartridges, gunpowder) are being improved, and weapons design can be made much better than with Soviet PM, Stechkin, SVD, Kalash, etc. progress and weapons technology in the world are constantly evolving. In Russia, instead of an arms culture, an arms-cheering patriotic splint is being imposed. And then in the war they will get tired of counting corpses.
  8. +3
    April 24 2019 21: 26
    Quote: kalibr
    Following will be two more, they are ready ...

    We are waiting with! And with great impatience. The topic is called failed
  9. +6
    April 24 2019 21: 43
    Uzi, due to his heavy shutter, jumps in his arms.
    And the weight is fair.
    I would prefer Beretta (from the old ones).
    1. +4
      April 24 2019 22: 06
      By the way, yes. So do I.
    2. +1
      April 24 2019 22: 10
      And the smaller the Uzi model (mini, micro), the more it is felt at times. Especially, given the doubled rate of fire of 1200-1250 rounds with less weight than the original Uzi.
      1. +4
        April 24 2019 22: 51
        I myself shot only from the old Uzi with a wooden butt.
        Micro and mini only saw the guys from security.
        By the way, lately they have, like, Scorpios. The ultrasound disappeared somewhere.
        Mini, according to the stories, spit out bullets too quickly. Excess
        rate of fire. And micro has a solitary mode.
        1. +1
          April 24 2019 23: 24
          Excessive rate of fire


          Well, this is more a weapon of attack than, in fact, protection. If you need to quickly clean a room full of bad guys, but you can’t throw a grenade.
    3. +1
      April 25 2019 08: 29
      From the Beretta MP-12 seeming Commissioner Katani failed?))
    4. +2
      April 25 2019 09: 08
      Quote: voyaka uh
      Uzi, due to his heavy shutter, jumps in his arms.
      And the weight is fair.
      I would prefer Beretta (from the old ones).

      I didn’t hold Beretta in my hands. He shot from an old ultrasound scan (he jumps in his hands - I don’t remember, but by and large - not happy), from a Mini-ultrasound scan (orgasm !!!), from an ultrasound gun — sucks.
  10. +3
    April 24 2019 22: 57
    Already in 1945, the Danish Madsen M45 appeared, then it was replaced by the models M46, M50 and M53. Moreover, the 1950 model was pretty much like our faculty, unless it had a casing on the trunk. But then she had not a direct store, but a carob store.
    Honestly, it’s difficult to agree with the author.

    Above in the photo is Madsen M / 50. In the middle is PPS-43. I would not say they are "quite similar".
    Moreover, the Madsen model 43 Mark 1953, which is both with a casing and a carob magazine, and which is in the bottom picture, is not very similar to PPS-2.
    1. +1
      April 24 2019 23: 13
      All firearms are somewhat reminiscent of a wicker arquebus. Barrel, butt, trigger.

      laughing
      1. +1
        April 25 2019 01: 51
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        All firearms are somewhat reminiscent of a wicker arquebus. Barrel, butt, trigger.

        No. Store is mute!
  11. +3
    April 25 2019 03: 56
    Well, if we say: "for every taste" ... then it is worth remembering the "Cheetah" submachine gun.
    PP "Gepard" with a magazine for 40 rounds.
    With "Cheetah" you can use 9-mm cartridges of 15 (!) "Varieties!
    The barrel has original replaceable chambers, which allows the use of a wide range of cartridges, namely:

    With a universal transition chamber:
    9x18 PM all nomenclature (bullets with lead and steel cores, bullets
    all-metal and expansive),
    9х18 PMM (all nomenclature),
    9х19 with a bullet of increased penetrability (RGO57 / 7Н21),
    9x19 PARA (all nomenclature),
    9x21 (RGO52),
    9х21 (РГО54 / 7Н29 / СП-10) with a bullet of increased penetrability.
    * I ask Kirill Karasik to correct it: he was 2 years ago about special rounds.

    With the chambered chambered for 9х30 "Thunder" (developed in the 33491 military unit):
    9x30 "PP" - with a bullet of increased penetrability,
    9х30 "BT" - with an armor-piercing tracer bullet,
    9х30 "PS" - with a lead core bullet,
    9х30 "PB" - with subsonic bullet speed
    1. +2
      April 25 2019 10: 01
      I read this material on HE.
      1. 0
        April 25 2019 11: 10
        Quote: kalibr
        I read this material on HE.

        Yes, VO itself borrowed this material from "someone" ... I read about Cheetah in different sources, "regardless" of VO! It was just that there was no time, but here the infa with VO turned up first ... hi
  12. +7
    April 25 2019 10: 06
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    Not for you, a troll from the Baltic states, I am writing that you flood here and troll under each of my comments.

    Dear Major! Well, why do you immediately "you" if you don't like someone? Do you think it will humiliate him more, show your superiority? Not at all. It is generally accepted that such a tone is more demeaning to the one who uses it than to those to whom it is addressed. You have experience, write interesting comments ... Do not descend to a lower informational level, even if your opinion of a person is sharply negative. Be above that.
    1. -7
      April 25 2019 10: 34
      Quote: kalibr
      Dear Major! Well, why do you immediately "you" if you don't like someone? Do you think it will humiliate him more, show your superiority? Not at all.

      I'm not humiliating anyone. This isn't the first time I've sent this troll. He floods and trolls. Everything is written in my comment to understand it correctly. The troll "did not understand" once again, and twisted it inside out.

      Humiliation is when in Russia the weapon is oblique, but in the NATO countries accurate. I didn’t feed trolls on the site. MO there is nothing to spend money on, what do trolls contain? Better to spend on a new cartridge and a magazine for a pistol, which will allow shooting no worse than NATO's modern models.

      Small arms produced in Russia every year more and more lag behind Western models. Instead of keeping trolls, it would be better to address the causes of the backlog. In this way, in the near future, Africa will also abandon Russian weapons, and its own army will become less and less protected, armed with less sophisticated weapons than the enemy. Is this clear to anyone in Moscow? What Serdyukov stole from the army is enough not only for new cartridges and pistol magazines, in a more understandable language.
    2. +2
      April 26 2019 13: 08
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, this is useless! You can't explain anything to this Samodelkin, boor - he is boor in Africa too. It's a pity you won't be able to read what kind of m and r and zm he rolls me in a personal, you will laugh. For example: "You, s t a r n y r, should be smarter, etc. ...." How do you? And after all, he sincerely believes that he has every right to do this, as well as to poke everyone in a row. But what to do, our side is a family, and in the family, as you know, "not without a parent." request
      1. 0
        April 26 2019 21: 29
        The person is the person, it is sacred, but ... if everything is as you wrote, then it is very sad.
        1. 0
          April 27 2019 12: 12
          Unfortunately, I wrote the truth, alas ... request
          1. -2
            April 27 2019 16: 54
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Unfortunately, I wrote the truth, alas ...

            The truth is, you both began to insult me ​​with a change in personality for a company with the Baltic states - Horse, people and souls (Incitatus). I never grasped You or His name and did not call him names. You specifically began to insult me, call me a boor and a mentally ill person, when I didn’t communicate with you at all and did not know about your existence, then you came to the topic of weapons and continue to do the same. Stop hanging noodles. When I saw that you weren’t calm down, I wrote in a more rude form to go about my business.
            Take care of yourself before evaluating others. You act like a very fat troll with very bad manners, provoke and incite.
            I wrote about "old men" when I found out that both of you are already under the age of ... but behave like juvenile trolls who have not realized themselves in life.
            1. +1
              April 27 2019 19: 05
              I talked with Vyacheslav, but they don’t ask you here.
              1. -2
                April 27 2019 21: 09
                Quote: Sea Cat
                I talked with Vyacheslav, but they don’t ask you here.

                Lying is bad. Liar hi
  13. +2
    April 25 2019 10: 38
    I agree in many respects with your point of view, but nevertheless "you" is hardly worth using ...
    1. -3
      April 25 2019 11: 39
      Quote: kalibr
      I agree in many respects with your point of view, but nevertheless "you" is hardly worth using ...

      This is not the reason. I have always turned to the Internet and I turn to you if I don't know a person. With me, too, everything is on You - it's more convenient for me. If I really know a person, then I myself decide with whom on you, and with whom on you. With unfamiliar adult women and older people, it is preferable to communicate with you, if you use the appeal to you as a separate respectful form of treatment, and not as a form of trolling. Here the trolls themselves run into, and when they receive a natural answer from me, they begin to be indignant so that I call them on you. How is it? This is just one form of trolling. Normal people are not affected. I am not writing about etiquette, but about the specific shortcomings of the weapon and methods of elimination. Sometimes I write controversial things that have not been fully studied and determined, but I don’t troll anyone. In a weapon, accuracy and accuracy are influenced by every detail, its shape, position, design and weight. And it is more important for the trolls to roll any serious discussion into a primitive flood, about "5 drops of oil for lubricating glock", about "grammar", "etiquette" and other things not related to the topic of commentary. Let them talk about ethics and etiquette in hotel topics about etiquette, create such topics and write there. And their level of etiquette and knowledge of etiquette will be immediately visible. There is no obligatory fixed rule on the Internet to address everyone to you, especially to trolls, especially when such a form of address is not used for offensive purposes. This is just one of the generally accepted forms of addressing a stranger on the Internet.
      Meanwhile, Serdyukov stole billions, escaped justice. And in the Russian army, obsolete weapons for obsolete cartridges, and they can’t figure it out. I write ready-made and tested recipes right away, not how to deal with Serdyukov (his place in court, and then in prison for a very long time), but how to make weapons right right, as competent modern developers and manufacturers make them so that they are not inferior to Western ones samples. The troll from the Baltic States is the most trollite under my every comment and is indignant, instead of writing the truth about fascism in the modern Baltic states and the oppression of the Russian population. The fascist teaches me etiquette. When I do not communicate with him and I do not invite him to discuss my comments. This is trolling.
  14. +2
    April 25 2019 12: 06
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    In weapons, accuracy and accuracy are influenced by every detail, its shape, position, design and weight.

    Certainly!
    1. -3
      April 25 2019 12: 46
      Quote: kalibr
      Certainly!

      1. Cartridges flying in with acceleration at an angle from the left and right sides (with transverse movement in addition to the direct longitudinal) from a two-row magazine without changing into a chamber located on the center line of the weapon - this is a pendulum swinging weapon. In any weapon, without exception, equipped with such a magazine, when supplying a cartridge, a pendulum that degrades the combat characteristics of the weapon works. In western pistols, this horizontal pendulum could be eliminated 100%, in Russia they are still tinkering with an outdated pistol magazine without rebuilding, which merges Western models according to the most important combat characteristics into one gate. Why do trolls squeal on the site and deserve my comments when I write about this omission in Russian weapons? When it was time to replace the store yesterday with a more sophisticated and modern one, like the western ones. I even chewed the design of such a store for the lazy, as they do in modern reliable stores with rebuilding.
      2. A cartridge with a reduced flange allows you to create a sleeve for such a shape of the gate of a weapon with better combat characteristics: lighter and more compact, with the best balance of centers of mass, and in absolutely any self-loading, automatic and bolt-on weapons, which will positively affect the accuracy and accuracy of fire and the rate of effective effective fire from weapons. The advantages of using such a cartridge are many in both self-loading and bolt-on weapons. The trolls scream and flood that "this is not allowed" and this is an "attempt on the holy" laughing "A horse in a coat" from deeply unfriendly Russia in the Baltics under my every comment begins its monotonous stupid trolling and flood, misinterpreting my words. In the Baltics, physics may not be taught. But in Russia physics is taught in schools and specialized institutes. Why is Russia sitting on a cartridge of the 19th century, and the Ministry of Defense is going to buy for its needs an American cartridge of the 50s of the 20th century, which is also conceptually outdated, when it is possible to make a more advanced and modern cartridge with better characteristics? How many Serdyukovs have to sit for weapons in Russia to start firing normally? They must sit down so that the army has modern cartridges and weapons, and not from the 19th century on weapons schemes from the middle of the 20th century.
      For weapon shutters, weapons layout, I also offer excellent and well-established schemes that are promising. Again trolling and service. On this site, trolls are well-fed. I did not feed them. On the contrary I drive, and I begin to make claims for it. The illiteracy of the claimants is off the charts.
  15. +4
    April 25 2019 12: 08
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    indignant, instead of writing the truth about fascism in the modern Baltic states and the oppression of the Russian population.

    The same does not apply to the subject of submachine guns ...
    1. -3
      April 25 2019 12: 58
      Quote: kalibr
      The same does not apply to the subject of submachine guns ...

      And what does the trolling and flooding of this Baltic troll refer to under each of my comments? I send him for a walk in another sandbox, and a bunch of local trolls come to me and teach me "etiquette". My etiquette is fine.
      The Baltic states are a fascist anti-Russian entity on the borders of Russia, where all Russian-speaking and Russian populations are oppressed and infringed upon. It's true. And in Russia, the Serdyukovs stole everything at this time and in the Russian army obsolete weapons under obsolete cartridges. The Russian army is weak by the Serdyukovs. I write everything correctly: everything on the topic and without flooding. The Sedyukovs are thieves and should be imprisoned; the Russian army should have modern high-quality weapons, not trash from the 19th and mid-20th centuries. The Serdyukovs will sit down and immediately the weapons will appear good, and the shops will stop wedging, and the cartridges with reduced flanges will no longer annoy the troll from an unfriendly Russian country.
  16. 0
    April 25 2019 12: 10
    Nikolaevich I (Vladimir) Today, 11: 10 Yes, thank God, did it really seem to you that I want to catch you on something. Not at all, on the contrary ...
  17. -1
    April 25 2019 12: 37
    Many PPs look as if they were not factory-made, but a loner handicraftman, by candlelight in the evening, made trowels in the barn.
    It would be alright if the war years were when the price was crucial, but with the post-war why is this so?
  18. +1
    April 25 2019 20: 26
    All these PPs, as they were surrogate weapons, remained because they used a pistol cartridge.
    1. 0
      22 June 2019 14: 30
      I like our "whirlwind" in theory, can anyone use it?
  19. 0
    April 26 2019 11: 17
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    The fascist teaches me etiquette.

    Well, that’s said too much. Why hang tags?
  20. 0
    April 26 2019 20: 23
    RM-12 is similar to the instrument of the Cuban revolution.
  21. 0
    April 26 2019 21: 31
    And there that just wasn’t delivered!
  22. +1
    April 28 2019 01: 01
    pp-93- where you aim and get there !!! --- pp-fairy tale !!! wink
  23. 0
    22 June 2019 14: 07
    Is there a lot of different PP we are producing now, can it be better to move on to several 3-4 mass-produced options?
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