Pistols and guns of the era of change and ammunition for them

Submachine gun: yesterday, today, tomorrow.


Today our story will be about the samples of this weaponsappeared at the end of 80-x - the beginning of 90-ies of the last century. At this time, the world has changed dramatically, and the weapon also turned out to be included in the complex process of change.

Why do you still need a submachine gun?


In the sixties and seventies of the last century, and in some countries a little later, that is, in the eighties, as the NATO bloc actively switched to intermediate 5,56-mm cartridges and corresponding weapons, the army’s “universal” PPs of the previous generation almost everywhere removed from service. Well, if their production was maintained where, it was only in the countries of the “third world” and that was mainly due to their cheapness. In NATO countries, the main type of weapon has become an automatic rifle for low-pulse intermediate ammunition, and why this is so clear. For example, it was supposed to arm radar personnel with submachine guns. But in the depths of its territory, why do we need to arm it with something? And if the enemy lands a landing, then, be he armed with M16 rifles, what resistance would people be able to offer him with machine pistols in their hands? Nevertheless, they worked on new submachine guns, and at the end of the 80s - the beginning of the 90s of the last century, they began to appear and brought a lot of new things with them.


In the last decade, the development of submachine guns made a lot of zigzags, which gave rise to many original designs. Here, for example, the Swedish submachine gun with a free gate, incident to the breech, CBJ-MS. It is portable, mobile, but it even has a bipod and a snail shop is provided!


Look at the photographs of the same aircraft pilots: and what is missing from them, and the pilot in the cockpit of the same attack aircraft or helicopter so closely that the same submachine gun is simply impossible to attach to it. During the years of the Afghan war, they tried to arm the pilots of AKS74, to include him in the NAZ ... And so what? There were four cases of pilots ejection of SU7B and MiG-21 over the territory of the enemy, and at the same time none of the pilots could not use it.

And in terms of size, the AKS74U is approximately equal to any PP, except perhaps for Micro-Uzi. But only it is much better both in effective range and in penetrative power. The barrel of the AKS74U is overheated only from the fourth store when shooting at a fast pace, but how long will the same pilot lead it? And not without reason in tank styling is also provided for both the machine and hand grenades. After all, tankers will have to deal with an enemy who is not armed with submachine guns in the event of the defeat of their combat vehicle. Hence the need, again, for adequate fire in terms of strength and accuracy on their part.

The main weapon of anti-terror!


However, at the same time, namely, the sixties and seventies of the twentieth century, a new stage began in the West in the development of submachine guns as a type of weapon. True, now at a fundamentally new level. Now, he again became just a police weapon, as he had been talking about in 30's, but not the entire police, but special forces, and various special services. It turned out that the ordinary police could not effectively deal with international terrorism and organized crime and needed an adequate response and adequate armament. After all, none of the same terrorists in the city will run with the M16 rifle, but will choose something smaller and less visible. So, with the same weapon, but better quality, one should act against them. And the German Heckler & Koch MP5 became a typical weapon for counter-terrorism operations. And yes, indeed, it looks more like an assault rifle (since it was created based on the G3 rifle), and in terms of size and mass it is closest to the MP40 or PPP, that is, weapons of the previous era that have passed the test of time.

But “closer” does not mean “exactly”. The design of new software is much more complicated and perfect. They began to use semi-free valves, or even the removal of gases for the operation of automation, shooting “from the closed gate” when using trigger USM - all this improved the quality of the new generation of PP on all their characteristics.


“Russkiy Les” - the Kedr submachine gun



And this is “Cedar” and shops to it ...


But in the regular army, PP was used at that time very limitedly, primarily as traditional, and even can be said: as a “psychological” and “status” weapon for arming the soldiers-artillerymen, tankmen, communications men, rocket engineers and staff officers. That is, all those for whom fire contact with the enemy in regular conditions, although theoretically possible, but whose practical risk is reduced to the very minimum.

Pistols and guns of the era of change and ammunition for them

Another sample of the "Russian forest": OC-02 "Cypress"


New time - new songs!


Interestingly, the USSR as well in 70-s of the XX century, apparently under the impression of the success of “Mini-Uzi” and “Ingram”, announced a competition for the development of an 9-mm submachine submachine gun, in which such well-known designers participated N. M. Afanasyev from Tula and E. F. Dragunov from Izhevsk. But our 9-mm cartridge was too weak. He gave an aiming range of just 50-70 meters, which could not be considered satisfactory. Therefore, work in this direction then stopped. But on the other hand, under the motto "Modern", they tried to create a new 5,45-mm small-sized machine gun, in order to arm the gunners, the crews of armored vehicles and the fighters of the auxiliary units with this weapon. The winner was the familiar Kalashnikov assault rifle AKS74U for both the military and industry.

But barely in our country in the eighties and nineties of the last century, the “winds of change” blew out, as interest to the PP arose to the full and new samples began to appear like mushrooms after rain. First of all, they turned out to be in demand as a “policeman” and, of course, counter-terrorism weapons. Old drawings were taken from the archives and quickly brought to production a number of designs of the seventies: the whole “Kashtan” forest nursery (see IN 3 February 2015), Cypress and Kedr (see IN 2 October 2013 g .). And many more constructions for special forces and militia were created from scratch: PP-19 Bison, Gepard, OTs-22, CP-2, PP-90, PP-90М1, PP-2000 and many others. And today we can see them in the hands of the traffic police, and collectors, and ... in one word “ours was found.” Now we would also have to create something equal to Kalashnikov for entering the world market of PP, but so far this has not been achieved.


Particularly interesting was our "Bison" - externally a copy of a Kalashnikov assault rifle, but with a pistol cartridge and with a large-capacity screw shop.



It can be installed folding butts of different devices ...



... and also "Bison" can be equipped with a silencer.


Here we need to again turn to the theory and find out what the customers of the new submachine guns really want from their creators, and again what trends are followed today by those and others. Rather, they began to follow after such a landmark event as the 1991 year and the collapse of the USSR. And it was so that the spread of body armor already then greatly lowered the combat value of submachine guns that fired standard pistol cartridges with their specific shape with bullets and low action on obstacles. And this led to the fact that the very idea of ​​a submachine gun as a small arms for ordinary pistol cartridges had to be revised. To solve the new tasks, special, say, a “submachine gun,” very specific ammunition, were also required. The easiest way was to create small-caliber low-impulse cartridges.


American "American-180" - a killer "melkashka."


Which is better: one big bullet or many small ones?


Moreover, it turned out that at a rate of fire around 20 shots per second, the number of hits at the same place on the target greatly increases the armor penetration of such small-caliber bullets, because the armor of bullet-proof vests does not have time to restore its microcrystalline structure after many consecutive hits, and collapses. So, for example, such submachine guns as American-180 and its improved analogue of the Yugoslav Gorezhe MGV-176 (caliber 5,6-mm or .22LR) became immediately advantageous. A new concept appeared, called PDW (English Personal defense weapon - “Personal Self-Defense Weapon”), the essence of which was to create new cartridges and already for them - new types of PP. So, in fact, there were fourth-generation submachine guns.


Yugoslav MGV-176.


New ammunition began to be a cross between pistol and intermediate cartridges for machine guns, but nevertheless closer to the first, first of all in such indicators as in power and recoil energy. But the use of sharp-caliber small-caliber bullets at ranges up to 150-200 m in terms of their impact on the target allowed them to achieve comparable results with intermediate ones. First of all, thanks to the high initial speed and flatness of the trajectory of the bullet, it was possible to significantly increase their penetration effect. It can even be said that in this way another fundamentally new type of small arms was born.


And this is nothing more than ... "whale" - that is, a set of devices that allows you to assemble another from one. In this case, it is a set of additional parts for the Glock-17 pistol that allows you to easily turn it into a submachine gun!



Another conversion of the “Glock”, and which of them is “cooler” you can’t even say!


However, in the NATO countries, design work under the CRISAT project (Collaborative Research Into Small Arms Technology - “Joint research in the field of small arms technology”) began in the 1990 year, and their goal was extremely important and significant: to find a replacement for the legendary pistol cartridge 9 × 19 mm Parabellum. At the same time, it was required to create under the new cartridge two new samples at once: a pistol weighing up to 1 kg and a submachine gun within the concept of PDW weighing up to 3 kg. The pistol bullet had to pierce the titanium plate 1,6-mm thick or 20 layers of kevlar fabric, and hit the enemy behind these obstacles at a distance of 50 m. The submachine gun had to do the same thing, but at a distance of 150 m.


Quite a short MP5 is more likely a tribute to fashion than a really serious PDW weapon.


Submachine guns under the "small cartridges"


Interestingly, this year was marked by the appearance in Belgium of the first “gun-cartridge” complex, which consisted of a new 5,7 × 28 mm caliber ammunition, an FN Five-FN pistol and a FN P90 submachine gun from FN Herstal. Recall that thanks to its original cartridge, more like a machine gun than a pistol, it was possible to squeeze whole 50 of such ammunition into his shop. The sleeve is bottle-shaped, and rather long, which also made it possible to place a powerful powder charge in it, the ignition of which forces its pointed bullet with 1,8 g mass to leave the barrel at a speed of 823 m / s and 610 J. energy. compared to traditional 9 × 19 cartridges mm.


Submachine gun MP7.


However, it is worth noting that, with all the positive moments, P90 did not become popular as an army weapon of self-defense, but again it fell into the arsenals of special police units. That is, the original idea of ​​PDW has corrected life, and there is nothing surprising in it, it happens all the time. They even wanted to take the Belgian 5,7-mm cartridge as a standard for NATO, but then he had a competitor from Germany - the 1990 × 4,6 mm cartridge created at the end of 30-s. He was still made by the same firm, Heckler and Hawk, and she produced an MP7 submachine gun (see VO 9 in October 2010) under him and an HK P46 pistol. Its data are as follows: energy 460 J (because the caliber is smaller), the mass of the bullet 1,7 g, and also the initial velocity is less - 736 m / s. But with all this, his punching characteristics are quite comparable with the Belgian. Well, in the submachine gun it was completely used vapor-automatic automatics from the G36 rifle.


The MP7A1 submachine gun of the Bundeswehr with the Zeiss collimator sight and the LLM01 laser designator.


On tests 2000 — 2003. The Belgian 5,7-mm cartridge proved to be better than the German. But it was not possible to standardize it for NATO, and each country remained with its own interest.

Meanwhile, a new cartridge with similar parameters was created by Vlastimil Libra (owner of a private arms firm) in the Czech Republic. The cartridge is called .17 Libra and has the following dimensions: 4,38 × 30 mm. The bullet to it is very light and easily reaches a speed of about 700 m / s., Which allows it to pierce the standard NATO armor at a distance of 250 meters. 10-mm steel plate it punches at a distance of 10 m, and up to 200 m retains a very high stopping effect. Under the new cartridge was created submachine gun CZW 438.


Submachine gun CZW 438.


The Chinese, who in the middle of the 90-ies created the 5,8 × 21 mm cartridge, also made Chang Feng submachine guns (see IN 22 February 2017) and the Type 05, are not far behind. This cartridge has a rather heavy bullet (weighs about 3 grams), which has a high initial speed - up to 500 m / s. Interestingly, the store of this machine gun auger gun, but unlike our "Bison" is not located below, but on top of the receiver!

“Bad examples” are contagious (just kidding!), And in Sweden they also decided to make a similar small-caliber armor-piercing ammunition for a submachine gun and made an 6,5 × 25 mm cartridge with a tungsten bullet in a plastic tray. And under him at the beginning of 2000's, they also made a submachine gun CBJ-MS (see VO 5 in March 2013), which has a sub-caliber tungsten bullet in a plastic tray. This bullet is the fastest. Its initial speed is at the level of Mosinskaya trilinea - 830 m / s, so it is not surprising that at a distance of 50 m it freely penetrates the 7-mm armor sheet. Moreover, this munition was designed on the base of the sleeve from the 9 × 19 “Parabellum” cartridge, slightly elongated and with a 6,5 mm caliper. That is, in terms of external dimensions, it is essentially unified with the 9 × 19 cartridge, which is very convenient, since it makes it possible to use it in samples of existing weapons for this cartridge. It is required to replace only a trunk, and all! Even the shutter does not need to change!


Submachine gun CBJ-MS.


True, there are spots on the sun. Although it has an impressive range, up to 200 — 250 m, its bullet has a weak stopping power. However, this is a very interesting sample of a submachine gun and will be curious how its fate will be.

And then it happened that in the NATO leadership in 2008, it was decided, first, to develop separate specifications for "soft" and reinforced ceramic plates of body armor, and second, to create a new "assault rifle for everyone." So all the forces today are thrown at it, and the submachine guns again went to the background.

To be continued ...
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  1. Theodore 8 June 2019 18: 09 New
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    I would have attached a snail to Stechkin, and did not bother!
    1. Nikolaevich I 9 June 2019 03: 44 New
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      So, "all" complain that the cartridge (9 x 18 mm) is rather weak!
  2. K-50 8 June 2019 18: 35 New
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    PP "Kashtan" under the caliber 9 * 21 or 7,62 * 25 (only a pointed bullet and how Gryazev and Shipunov made a high-speed bullet for the GS-18) would not be very bad. IMHO.
    For some reason, he appeals to me purely outwardly most of all. There is something in it that is attractive. repeat
    1. ssergey1978 8 June 2019 19: 10 New
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      Why reinvent the wheel. 5.45x39. For an assault rifle with a barrel length of 415, not ice, but for PP will do
      1. Nikolaevich I 9 June 2019 02: 55 New
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        In the US, there is an IMP-221 submachine gun chambered for 5,56 x 36 mm ... wink
        1. Catfish 9 June 2019 16: 53 New
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          Hello Vladimir hi . But was this IMP adopted somewhere in service?
          1. Nikolaevich I 10 June 2019 00: 48 New
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            Good morning, Constantine! IMP-221-prototype, and I mentioned it in connection with the proposal ssergey 1978 to use for the software cartridge 5,45 x 39 mm and nothing more "not to bother" ... So I cited the example of "similar, but American" cartridge 5,56 x X45 mm, shortened to 36 mm for use in software IMP ... (5,56 x36 mm experienced) hi
            1. Catfish 10 June 2019 15: 49 New
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              Clear, hi There was an idea, but things didn’t go further than experiments. Better time-tested 9x19, or its modern modifications. drinks
              1. Nikolaevich I 10 June 2019 16: 21 New
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                Quote: Sea Cat
                Better time-tested 9х19, or its modern versions.

                Well, "it" is how it turns out! But there are "attempts" to change ...
                By the way, on India’s “base” of the 5,56 x 45 mm cartridge in India, an 5,56 x 30 mm cartridge was made to develop the PDW complex for this cartridge; but, alas, I was not interested in whether they did "something such," or not .... hi
                1. Catfish 10 June 2019 17: 09 New
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                  In India ... With all my respect for Raju Kapoor, something does not believe in "something such." hi
                  1. Nikolaevich I 10 June 2019 17: 14 New
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                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    In India ... With all my respect for Raju Kapoor, something does not believe in "something such."

                    And I think so ! yes
    2. Nikolaevich I 9 June 2019 03: 07 New
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      Quote: K-50
      PP "Chestnut"

      Quote: K-50
      There is in him that sort of, attracting

      And I "bastard" from the PP "Cheetah"! repeat Advantages: 1. nodes (parts) of the Kalashnikov assault rifle are used (it is possible to "remake" old Kalash in PP ...); 2. by replacing the valves, chamfer options are obtained: 9 x 18 mm, 9 x 19 mm, 9 x 21 mm, 9 x 30 mm Thunder; 3. created a "surface-underwater" version for 9 x19 mm and PSP cartridges ...
      1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 11: 20 New
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        If there were virtues in him, they would make him hundreds of thousands. And since it does not exist in nature from the word "completely", it does not mean a lot of advantages, but one big and continuous flaw.

        All the advantages are a spherical crystal horse in a vacuum, and in the dry residue - several copies for testing. And that is all.
        1. Nikolaevich I 9 June 2019 12: 48 New
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          This is not an argument ... in Russia, a lot of excellent products are shelved!
          1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 12: 54 New
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            Collective intelligence is smarter.

            hi
            1. Nikolaevich I 9 June 2019 16: 33 New
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              Quote: Horse, people and soul
              Collective intelligence is smarter.

              lol Well, maybe sometimes ... but about the "crowd syndrome" heard? winked
              1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 18: 03 New
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                Of course!

                Crowd syndrome is localized on Durkain.

                laughing
  3. ssergey1978 8 June 2019 18: 36 New
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    The best software is AKS-74U.
    1. san4es 8 June 2019 19: 10 New
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      ... He doesn’t have a pistol cartridge - this means it’s not PP request
      1. ssergey1978 8 June 2019 19: 12 New
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        In terms of software. And the line between cartridges 5.45 and 5.7 is erased
        1. san4es 8 June 2019 19: 18 New
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          ... Judging by the new samples of pistols - YES ... but it’s 5,7 × 28 mm and not 5,45 x39, as on AKSU hi
    2. 3x3zsave 8 June 2019 19: 29 New
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      This is a shotgun assault rifle. Not a candle to God, not a damn poker.
      1. ssergey1978 8 June 2019 19: 33 New
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        This sawn-off shotgun perfectly fulfills the functions of a PP if the rekoshet fighter can use bullets without a steel core or a half-shell. A plus is the range of targeted shooting and high kinetic energy
        1. 3x3zsave 8 June 2019 20: 14 New
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          Yeah, I agree. Only, the infection, heavy, angular and nifiga does not meet the requirements of users. In its purest form - a stool from Ikea, expensive, square and not functional.
          As for the cartridge, the servicemen do not have to choose what was sent, then they hammer it into the store.
          1. ssergey1978 8 June 2019 20: 25 New
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            Where is heavy? 3 kg where is angular? Look at the ultrasound where the corners are and the weight of the ultrasound loses outright, and shoots a dead cartridge.
            1. 3x3zsave 8 June 2019 20: 30 New
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              Sorry, what kind of Uzi do you mean?
              1. ssergey1978 8 June 2019 20: 35 New
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                I wrote an ultrasound. not mini, not micro.
                1. 3x3zsave 8 June 2019 21: 11 New
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                  For 1948, he was fully consistent with the requirements. Moreover, the design was so successful that it has been replicated and modernized for 70 years.
      2. Catfish 9 June 2019 01: 11 New
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        Hello to Anton! hi Precisely said. And in the army and the police, they expressed their attitude towards him in one word, “GRABLE”, a very accurate description of this model. But, as they say, in lack of fish ...
        1. IQ12NHJ21az 9 June 2019 16: 11 New
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          Is it about AKS74U or about ultrasound?
          1. Catfish 9 June 2019 16: 24 New
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            AKSU, with their “Uzi”, they’re not bad and understand.
        2. Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 19: 51 New
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          A stub?

          Apple !!!

          laughing
    3. tracer 9 June 2019 03: 33 New
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      One hundred percent better. PP well fires at close range, which AKSU does not allow when. This means that its effectiveness at the same dimensions is better, since it allows you to keep the enemy at an unprofitable distance beyond the effectiveness of 9x19 caliber machine guns ... But the gun is short because the shot will be faster. Why only "GLOKolyub Horse" is late today.
      1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 11: 28 New
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        But on the "short" is better gun since a shot from it will be faster


        For this you need to study for a long time and burn many, many rounds.
        It’s easier to learn how to use Ksyuha or PP for short distances. It is from the end users (units) that Ksenia is suitable for this or is more preferable PP.

        The horse sleeps at night.

        yes

        If the pistol is used not by special forces and not by the police, then it is not worth treating it as the main “weapon”. The gun today is still a spare weapon
        1. tracer 10 June 2019 00: 31 New
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          I had a couple of months of nazd to speak with the mentor of the New York Police Department mentally. Very informative. As they say, a sailor’s seaman ... So, a few years ago, they mocked with pistols this or that for a long time, at that time they even bought a new S&W MP9 9 × 19. We came to the conclusion that Glock 17 is better with a striker for their patrol specifics and there are no official offsets. A completely oak trigger pull was also established for admission to patrol duty. But the joke is that it’s very difficult to send a standard police officer with him. He himself (the instructor) sets the tuning IPEX with an effort of about 2.5 pounds. (I don’t remember the standard about 4.5 pounds or even 5.5. They shoot the standard and set the standard. Yes, they train very well by real professionals. And they are trained to shoot instantly in the center of the case. At close range, a professional person will not let you shoot first from the shots. Although the distances their effectiveness is still different, due to better aiming and barrel length.
          1. tracer 10 June 2019 00: 37 New
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            And yet, comrade Horse ... In order to save ammo and for a deeper skill, the Siloviks are training on "Laser Shot" Texas simulators. There, to hell with a dope, all the whole of various levels and weapons options. There are those that the site does not show but they are. They are sold only to security forces. Interesting thing.
            1. Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 00: 49 New
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              Yes matzal i sirt. For my taste, a completely bespontovaya contraption.

              When I still had Glock 36, I started training with it. How the bullets went better - switched to Glock 17 and it seemed like a child’s toy.

              SIRT and a variety of laser shooting galleries do not give a complete picture. Having worked there descent - on real weapons will still be different.

              Only idling on real weapons (with or without a laser cartridge) and real shooting give a noticeable effect.

              And these laser "simulators" - just to sell them.
          2. Timeout 10 June 2019 09: 16 New
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            Quote: tracer
            So, a few years ago, for a long time they mundered with pistols this or that, at that time they even bought the new S&W MP9 9 × 19.

            Tracer, why again distribute fakes? In the NYPD since the last century, service weapons are Smith & Wesson 5946, 5906, Glock 19, and Sig Sauer P226. So they did not look for anything and are not looking for it. Again, you have another fantasy flight ...
            Quote: tracer
            Concluded that it is better Glock 17 with a striker

            And what has Glock already begun to produce pistols with trigger trigger?
            Quote: tracer
            I had a couple of months of nazd to speak with the mentor of the New York Police Department mentally.

            Yeah, another conversation, as with Morgan Freeman. I wonder after what mushrooms ...
            1. Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 10: 56 New
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              Quote: tracer
              Concluded that it is better Glock 17 with a striker

              And what has Glock already begun to produce pistols with trigger trigger?


              It's just that Comrade Tracer had two thoughts at once, which he decided to rush to combine in one phrase.

              We decided to take a gun with a striker and it became Glock. And with two versions of a tight descent. Typically American crap. Glock is used all over the world, and only American cops manage to shoot their own thigh with it. Well, Zadornov also told about the reason for this phenomenon.

              By the way, at the Millennium in New York they drove the cops from all the states bordering New York, which on Broadway stood at each intersection as many as 20 pcs. Plus types in civilian rushing along the sidewalks. So here the cops that were nearby had Glocks. I especially did not consider 17 or 19.
              1. tracer 10 June 2019 15: 06 New
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                To me, to the drum, the opinions of some local eagles and their fantasies on him of what they have never seen. And they will never see. Time out confirmation of this. But you horse are absolutely right in understanding what I wrote. And the fact that you saw with your own eyes that there can be none. Timeout will be upset.
                1. tracer 10 June 2019 15: 10 New
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                  And as for Freeman, yes it was. Faced at work. About 3 years ago. Interesting guy. True old one already ..
                2. Timeout 11 June 2019 02: 12 New
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                  Quote: tracer
                  I'm absolutely up to the drum

                  Yeah, then you run away for every opinion and complain to the administration. And this happens regularly.
              2. Timeout 11 June 2019 02: 08 New
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                Quote: Horse, people and soul
                It's just that Comrade Tracer had two thoughts at once, which he decided to rush to combine in one phrase. We decided to take a gun with a striker and it became Glock.

                A polygonal section, the Polish PM, etc., etc., are noticed behind it, the pearls that a knowledgeable person simply cannot issue. No, a colleague to the answer of “tracer” I gave an unambiguous remark with a list of models in service, which he is not even aware of. For he asserts of the secret knowledge gained in "conversation."
                Quote: Horse, people and soul
                And with two versions of tight descent

                About this there are a bunch of articles on the internet, from which by the way he draws Old. But the trouble is, 80% of articles are written by such "experts", and he will copy these errors.
                Quote: Horse, people and soul
                to the millennium in new york

                I bet the tracer doesn't even know what it is.
                PS Scrolled down comments, and it really is.
                Quote: tracer
                And the fact that you saw with your own eyes that there can be none.

                It just doesn’t reach him that you saw the cops with the Glocks from 1999 to 2000 ... And this is the "migrant" who was supposed to celebrate the millennium.
                1. tracer 11 June 2019 02: 24 New
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                  I did not speak about Milenium. Is it in your head a connection with millennium or something else. What else do you connect there or by whom? HOW FUNNY I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS MILENIUM. EVERYTHING appreciated. Applaud your sick imagination. I say what I saw or heard or encountered myself. THIS WHY YOU REVEALED YOURSELF AS A UNDERSTANDING FOR ANY QUESTION. And it is your judgment that is final. And look at the same time completely funny. Still photos of my pistols waiting who asked? Do not sleep at night, probably .. The trouble is straight.
                  1. Timeout 11 June 2019 02: 38 New
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                    Quote: tracer
                    I say what I saw or heard or encountered myself.

                    Well, yes, I encountered ... For example, with the 1954 TT. Or with the Polish PM. Or maybe with D7, then you need to list the collision?
                    1. tracer 11 June 2019 02: 45 New
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                      Yes, the error came out TT 52 years with a small notch is this fundamentally? About the "Polish PM" he just said that he is very similar to the PM and good in manufacturing quality. Am I not right? And he talked about the cargo container for the parachute system. Do not confuse with a D7 parachute. Alas, wipe away the tear. If you weren’t so self-confident, you would be quite a normal participant.
                      1. Timeout 11 June 2019 03: 06 New
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                        Quote: tracer
                        Yes, the error came out TT 53 years with a small nozzle is it fundamentally?

                        Will we play a guessing game again? Study the question first. But I'll tell you a secret, TT in 1952 was discontinued, especially with small nozzle....
                        And this is a screen so that the jambs do not hide.

                        Quote: tracer
                        About the "Polish PM" he just said that he is very similar to the PM and good in manufacturing quality.

                        What is it like?
                        Quote: tracer
                        Yes, calm down you already. Well, if you’re Polish, “Makarov” is not Makarov. "
                        Quote: tracer
                        And he talked about the cargo container for the parachute system. Do not confuse with a D7 parachute.

                        Quote: tracer
                        The parachute is most likely either D 6 or D7 and I doubt very much that D5.

                        Yeah, have you already developed a D-7 parachute? Or where UPDMM 65 hung from a fighter ...
                      2. tracer 11 June 2019 03: 39 New
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                        You confuse it. D7 I did not say that it was a parachute, but only presented your assumption on this score .. Probably a lot has changed since then. And I don’t know, I don’t remember exactly what the name of the container with which I jumped was called. So do not backtrack tovarisch. So is the 1952 TT.
                      3. Timeout 11 June 2019 03: 54 New
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                        Quote: tracer
                        D7 I did not say that this is a parachute

                        Is the quote read differently or is it necessary to twist something in the mind?
                        Quote: tracer
                        So is the 1952 TT.

                        Especially like this ...
                2. tracer 11 June 2019 02: 57 New
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                  You are a member of the site, and are required to abide by its rules. And if you violate them, or if you violate them, then the administration, and not I, will explain the rules of the site to you.
                  1. Timeout 11 June 2019 03: 13 New
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                    Quote: tracer
                    You are a member of the site, and are required to abide by its rules. And if you violate them, or if you violate them, then the administration, and not I, will explain the rules of the site to you.

                    Oh, I ran to complain again, as soon as you poke a lie ... So cheating is paragraph (XNUMX) in the rules.
                  2. tracer 11 June 2019 03: 39 New
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                    Until you break calm down.
                  3. Timeout 11 June 2019 03: 55 New
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                    Quote: tracer
                    Until you break calm down.

                    So you break.
  • faterdom 8 June 2019 19: 15 New
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    Our fists a hundred years ago made cuts. Unification of ammunition and parts is complete (with a mosquito). The lethal force at short distances - more than at long distances - is all the same impractical. The bestowal is true ... not for women's or children's pens, but maybe weapons should not be for them?
    Dealt with PP-90 and PP-92.
    Honestly, I personally find it more convenient and reliable PM and Stechkin. Well and PSM - a cool little gun!
    1. Timeout 10 June 2019 09: 31 New
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      Quote: faterdom
      Dealt with PP-90 and PP-92.

      And PP-92 what kind of beast?
  • lucul 8 June 2019 19: 18 New
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    Good article.
    These software can only make sense in enclosed spaces. In a clean field, it is rubbish - only shoot yourself.
  • ssergey1978 8 June 2019 19: 23 New
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    Quote: san4es
    ... Judging by the new samples of pistols - YES ... but he's 25 and not 39 hi

    I wanted to say that there is nothing to fence a garden with a new cartridge for PP when you can use the old 5.45.
    1. Corn 8 June 2019 19: 51 New
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      Old 5.45 is completely unsuitable for PP, the powder charge does not have time to burn out, the stopping bullets are not enough, the relatively strong recoil will not allow to compensate for the small caliber with rate of fire, and a bullet with a large elongation has serious problems with rebounds, which is important for police weapons in an urbanized environment.
      1. ssergey1978 8 June 2019 20: 05 New
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        Nonsense. Gunpowder burns out, 200 mm is enough. 735 m. From. gives good OD and for weapons with auto-fire it’s not critical. Recoil, I own the Saiga MK under 7.62x39 scanty returns. And no one canceled bullets without a steel core. And what is better than 5.7x25 cartridges?
        1. Corn 8 June 2019 20: 35 New
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          There is nothing to argue here, all of the above applies to 40 years of experience in operating AKSU. I do not know a single living person who would remember this machine with a kind word. In fact, he has only one advantage - reliability, everything else is bad.
          Your saiga has only one firing mode.
          Not only the core affects the susceptibility to ricochets, but the shape of the bullet, even with a lead core of 5,45, will ricochet strongly.
          And what is better than 5.7x25 cartridges?
          Yes, nothing, therefore, did not receive wide distribution.
          1. ssergey1978 8 June 2019 20: 41 New
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            From whom did you hear the bad about the AKS-74U, from the one who did not hold it in your hands? The revitalized bullets with a lead core are reluctant to re-emerge, and the half-shells will not re-circulate in the prince. Yes, the saiga formally has a single shooting mode but formally.
            1. CTABEP 9 June 2019 09: 24 New
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              Well, I held him, and even shot - I can’t say anything good about him. The bullet of course flies far, but from 100 meters there is already a problem, it is very uncomplicated, the flash blinds at night. Bullets with a lead core and some special shape are certainly good, but in fact there are three 7H10 zinc there, take it and don't show off. The only thing that is good to do with it is to hook the store for 45 rounds and scoring the tracer from the hip to release it in the direction of the targets (of course, in the evening or at night) - but the pleasure is purely aesthetic.
              1. ssergey1978 9 June 2019 09: 42 New
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                All AKs are not applied (a matter of habit) for me personally you can’t imagine better. All Ak blind at night (think PP) will not blind. More than once, the AKS-74U was used in a confined space and not one of the shooters was injured, and only some people constantly talk about some terrible ricocheting.
        2. Horse, people and soul 8 June 2019 20: 43 New
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          Duc, 5.7x28 was made to replace the pistol 9x19, and not the intermediate 5.56x45 or our 5.45x39.

          Weapons under 5.7x28 could not displace the weapons under more than a hundred-year cartridge 9x19. The cartridge and weapons 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 have existed for a long time so that "everyone abandoned their old 9x19 and switched to a small-caliber cartridge in PDW."

          However, this is not the case.

          Campaign, 9x19 will live the next 100 years.
  • san4es 8 June 2019 19: 42 New
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    Thank. Hello everyone hi
    ... Movies on the topic;
    ... many designs for special forces and police were created from scratch: PP-19 "Bison"
    .... PP-90M1 ...
    1. Botanologist 8 June 2019 22: 18 New
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      Shot last week with PP-90. The impression is complex, and could not imagine the combat options for him. The guard will do, for the anti-terror gun is nevertheless more accurate and more functional.
      1. Timeout 10 June 2019 09: 26 New
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        Quote: Botanologist
        Shot last week with the PP-90.

        And what does the PP-2000 have to do with it? PP-90 is a "pencil case", almost wherever possibly removed from service.
    2. Catfish 9 June 2019 01: 08 New
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      Sanchez hi and this PP-90M1 is also the brainchild of the company Gryazev-Shipunov? The characteristic mechanism for reloading weapons is already painfully.
      1. san4es 9 June 2019 11: 56 New
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        Absolutely a bullseye smile ... Greetings Cat hi
        The PP-90M1 submachine gun was developed in the Tula Design Bureau as a competitor to Izhevsk PP-19 Bison-2. Despite the similarity in designation with the folding PP-90 submachine gun, this model by design has nothing to do with it and is a completely original development. The purpose of creating the PP-90M1 submachine gun was a weapon with a large-capacity magazine, which has a high density of fire in close combat.
  • Horse, people and soul 8 June 2019 20: 30 New
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    If we talk about submachine guns, then they usually talk about several target groups for their users:

    - Army specialists without direct contact with the enemy, aircraft crews (emergency laying), armored vehicle crews, drivers, etc.
    - police
    - Army (and not only) special forces.

    These groups will have different attitudes towards PP.

    Army experts will choose between the PP and Ksenia most likely Ksenia. The weight is the same, the size is similar, and Ksyuha’s anger is greater. Yes, and with cartridges and magagzinami there will be no shortage if that.
    The police will choose PP. They are important accuracy over a short distance and limited power - yet in the city w ...
    SWAT will choose the one that best suits the task. The spetsura choice is much wider than just between PP and Ksyuha.

    hi

    Thanks to the author for a portion of yummy!
    1. Shopping Mall 9 June 2019 11: 30 New
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      Quote: Horse, people and soul
      Army experts will choose between the PP and Ksenia most likely Ksenia. The weight is the same, the size is similar, and Ksyuha’s anger is greater. Yes, and with cartridges and magagzinami there will be no shortage if that.


      The military will choose a full-fledged AK, or its modern short versions that are similar in niche to the M-4. It is unlikely that there will be a task for which the weapon should be shorter on 10, see

      Quote: Horse, people and soul
      The police will choose PP. They are important accuracy over a short distance and limited power - yet in the city w ...


      Police rifles and their stubs basically can not be given, only the police special forces. The bullet of the automaton flies far and pierces well, to be able to use it in the city and in order not to overwhelm any outsiders, this must be strongly taught. For police, only PP with a cut-off on 3 shot (exclude fully automatic fire), if necessary, issue a BC with armor-piercing bullets of the type 7H31, 7H21 in case the criminals are in armor. And it may even use PP for reinforced cartridges such as 9x21 or 10 mm auto.

      Quote: Horse, people and soul
      SWAT will choose the one that best suits the task. The spetsura choice is much wider than just between PP and Ksyuha.


      This yes, these should be determined, depending on the task.
      1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 12: 30 New
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        The military will choose a full AK


        Who would argue? We are talking about military experts who have “too many” full-fledged Kalash, because by the nature of their activity they do not have contact with the enemy at a distance of a small-arms shot and for whom weapons the shorter and lighter the better.
      2. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 12: 35 New
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        Police rifle and their stubs basically can not be given


        The police is different. I saw at the airport police in Riga and in Prague with MP5. Why at the airport - the people in the darkness?

        In New York, at the Trump Tower, the police were with dogs and M4. In the terminal on Staten Island - the same thing. Darkness to the people.

        And, behold, you are better known to them.

        laughing
        1. Shopping Mall 9 June 2019 12: 38 New
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          Quote: Horse, people and soul
          Police rifle and their stubs basically can not be given


          The police is different. I saw at the airport police in Riga and in Prague with MP5. Why at the airport - the people in the darkness?

          And, behold, you are better known to them.


          Why not? The penetrating action of the MP5 is small, the accuracy is high - just for solving antiterrorist tasks. In the case of which it is more convenient to aim than from a pistol.

          But the AK there just would be superfluous - they shoot at a terrorist, and in the background a plane explodes, which accidentally shot a tank ...
          1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 12: 40 New
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            At the airport there is glass around, and behind the glass there are planes about twenty meters away. Everything is in the hands of the shooter and the queen of chance for any occasion.
    2. Sancho_SP 9 June 2019 11: 43 New
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      The auxiliary parts according to this logic should give out what is cheaper. The same AK (any) from warehouses, of which there are millions of trunks. Under the cartridge that is on the supply in the rest of the unit.

      The police are different. It would be better to give out shotguns to any PPS and other VOKhRMs than automatic weapons. Shotgun, corny, easier to handle in the hands of people whose main job is to write protocols and knock down small bribes. But for all special forces, SOBR, and so on, due to their small numbers, you can keep anything from margolin to Pecheneg in the arsenal, one for each soldier.

      But the "army special forces" - this is generally a collective image. There is intelligence, there is the Airborne Forces, there are army special forces and so on. All of them are of "special" purpose and all have different equipment requirements.
      1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 12: 46 New
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        And what to give out to pilots, tankers, KShM operators and others? Who usually doesn’t need a weapon for, but it’s useful just in case. Who needs a back and forth hatch with personal weapons in the winter?
        1. Sancho_SP 12 June 2019 22: 30 New
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          Just in case. And there are all kinds of cases .. (c)

          The ACS is for those who freely crawl into the hatch and do not interfere under an armchair (optional, ejection). In the same plane or tank, weapons are needed only in case of evacuation on the front line or, worse, behind it. It’s not a sin, and to each machine, put enough in the tank is enough space. Actually, one machine gun for three (four, five) tankers was given solely out of economy. And today, I repeat once again, there are enough AKSs to put into each tank of the army, including scrap metal for conservation. The same goes for the BMP crew, etc.

          In all other cases - the same army pistol that the officers in the compound.
          1. Horse, people and soul 12 June 2019 22: 35 New
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            ... enough space in the tank.


            Not sure. With my height and in the winter, it was inconvenient for me to climb to the KShM-145 back and forth through the side hatch of the BTR-60 radio room.

            If there were also sadanuli, then the horse-radish itself would crawl out of there. There is really little space and everything clings to everything. I'm too big.
            Only in front is normal, where is the driver and commander of the KShM.
            1. Sancho_SP 12 June 2019 22: 42 New
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              With a gun? Why carry it with you at all?

              And KShM is not a tank. There, firstly, there are more officers (who are not supposed to be an automatic machine) than people ^ W soldiers, secondly, the KShM is guarded by at least a platoon, and thirdly, it’s no more likely to get hit by a front line than in a food train.
              1. Horse, people and soul 12 June 2019 23: 22 New
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                The radio station is direction finding and becoming a target for artillery. That is why the radio station is remotely controlled by telephone, for which, in addition to the machine, you also drag the reel with the cable and phone to ... as far as I can not remember after 35 years, but it was definitely several hundred meters. Maybe even 500.
                1. Sancho_SP 14 June 2019 11: 48 New
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                  And this is done without protection? Three officers and two soldiers (the same KShM crew?) Are sitting 500 meters from the walkie-talkie - but are there no other units around?


                  I’m just saying that the weapon of self-defense (that is, the weapons of those fighters who regularly fight not with machine guns, but with equipment) should be proportionate to the risk of the need for this same defense.

                  For example, in your case, would an AKC with a magazine of 20 rounds be more convenient than a regular AKM (AK-74?), Or not?
  • san4es 8 June 2019 21: 50 New
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    what ... the armor of the bulletproof vest plates simply does not have time to restore its microcrystalline structure after many successive hits, and is destroyed. So immediately, for example, submachine guns like the American-180 and its advanced analogue Yugoslavian Gorenge MGV-176 (5,6 mm or .22LR caliber) became profitable ... recourse
    1. Catfish 9 June 2019 01: 04 New
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      Good night, buddy Sanchez! drinks Damn, this American-180 cartridges clicks like seeds, sleeves pour down like husks! good Thank!.
      1. san4es 9 June 2019 12: 15 New
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        ... also that rattle laughing

        recourse ... There is still the M-16 under 22 LR turned up .... smile
    2. Nikolaevich I 9 June 2019 03: 41 New
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      It is a pity that "forgot", "training" machine gun Bluma ... request
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. Catfish 9 June 2019 01: 35 New
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      Of course, I wildly apologize. But what, are the Kalashnikovs in demand in the world market?
      Something I do not know about this. Why would they be in demand there? What is good about them?


      Nothing wild is needed, please. stop Here the people are quite sane and calm. Well, you don’t know why the Kalashnikovs are in demand in the world market, well, okay, I think this will not affect the sale of AKs. Both in our country, and in Bulgaria with Yugoslavia, and to hell where, wherever they release him and wherever they sell him. request

      PS So simple, it doesn’t matter, for the sake of fun: What kind of troops did you serve in? Answer is not required. hi
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 12: 48 New
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          Windy Major, are you reincarnated in jemj after a ban?

          And where, then, is your crown voluminous monologue about reduced flanges in each post?

          hi

          I do not recognize you in makeup ...


          ... and I recognize the sweetheart by gait ...


          laughing
          1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 13: 01 New
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            Not ... in Major, but Carbine, who prematurely rested in the bathhouse.

            How could Carbine be without mentioning Kirali and his usual rubbish about a separate cartridge for cooks, grooms and foot soldiers?

            The 5,56x45 mm cartridge is not intermediate, but an infantry intermediate power. And these are two big differences.


            Just laughing ...
            1. tracer 11 June 2019 02: 39 New
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              Infantry cartridge? I obviously missed something. Well, fantasies there to put 5.45 / 39 in the short-stemmed barrel where half the gunpowder will not burn. BUT about the "infantry" did not hear.
              1. Horse, people and soul 11 June 2019 07: 03 New
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                There again, a long sheet of nonsense hung and was destroyed along with the author, who already had -100 in karma.
              2. Horse, people and soul 11 June 2019 07: 06 New
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                On the AR-15 there are interchangeable trunks (upper) from 18 "to 10" (25 cm) - any whim for your money, as they say.
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 18: 11 New
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          Carbine, they revealed you. Tie accounts to produce.

          You can change and rename your account as you like, but you can’t change your essence and style.

          You’ll be at it, minus 80 in your piggy bank.

          laughing
      3. The comment was deleted.
        1. Catfish 9 June 2019 23: 44 New
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          PP in civilian life was never a police weapon. It was the weapon of gangsters and terrorists.

          Thank you, you are unsinkable ours, again pleased. You’ll try to be more careful here, otherwise you’ll be banned again and we will be missed again. Here without you, it’s like on the arena without the “redhead”. Don't do it all seriously. smile
    2. Nikolaevich I 9 June 2019 02: 50 New
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      Quote: 5tg
      But in the USSR after the war, the PP was not

      In the USSR, the special forces were armed with Czech (Czechoslovak) PP "Scorpion" ...
    3. ssergey1978 9 June 2019 06: 12 New
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      What a long nonsense.
  • Catfish 9 June 2019 01: 24 New
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    Vyacheslav, accept personal thanks for the new and good article. hi It’s only a pity that there was no place for the Chinese “brothers”, maybe in the next article you’ll emboss a couple of cross-eyed photos. drinks
  • riwas 9 June 2019 07: 47 New
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    For grenade launchers and snipers you need a more serious weapon than just a gun. Something between the gun and the PP. At one time, the Stechkin pistol was used for grenade launchers, but this is not an option.
    1. Sancho_SP 9 June 2019 11: 34 New
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      For a sniper - whichever. The infantry, which with SVD or something similar, has no special need for an additional barrel. As with the grenade launcher - it does not work separately from the rest of the compartment.

      But for a sniper saboteur, who in the best traditions of films about Rambo crawls on enemy rear, the weight of the equipment will be more important than an additional barrel, again.
      1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 12: 52 New
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        But for a sniper saboteur, who in the best traditions of films about Rambo crawls on enemy rear,


        He is not alone either. At least two. Observer and shooter.
      2. riwas 10 June 2019 13: 19 New
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        That's it, along with all the trenches and buildings are being stormed, and this is close combat and for it we need appropriate weapons.
  • Sancho_SP 9 June 2019 11: 31 New
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    Something everyone forgot 9h39 ours. It is free that it is automatic in size, but for police functions it is much more interesting than different small things. Unless, for the gun is large.
    1. Horse, people and soul 9 June 2019 13: 07 New
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      This is a special subsonic cartridge for shooting with a silencer.

      Special, rare compared to ordinary, expensive, metal-intensive.

      The transition of some Western units to a small-caliber cartridge for PDW also meant a gain in price. But it didn’t work out. As before, 9x19 is the cheapest cartridge.
      1. Sancho_SP 12 June 2019 22: 04 New
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        So what? There cannot be a subsonic cartridge. A bullet can have a certain speed from a certain barrel, sometimes subsonic. There is nothing special in the cartridge itself, especially if the bullet is just lead. The price of a “special” police cartridge will be at the level of any other with a comparable series.

        But under 9x39 it is very easy to remake or re-make weapons that are as unified as possible with AK. It will be cheap and technological.
        1. Horse, people and soul 12 June 2019 22: 17 New
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          But under 9x39 it is very easy to remake or re-make weapons that are as unified as possible with AK. It will be cheap and technological.


          Nah ... it won't be, friend, cheaper. More materials. The production of cartridges is more expensive compared to 7,62x39 and even more so from 5.45x39.

          Even the price of 9x19 cartridges differs with a bullet of 8 grams (124 grains) and 7,5 grams (115 grains). Cartridges with a bullet of 115 grains are cheaper, although the difference in material consumption is only half a gram. Subsonic cartridges for firing with a silencer with a bullet of 158 grains are already twice as many cartridges with a bullet of 115 grains.

          The consumption of cartridges 9x39 that comes from the operators Vintorez and Val is scanty compared to the consumption of cartridges of "ordinary" calibres 7,62x39 and 5,45x39.

          If you produce 9x39 cartridges in consumption quantities comparable to the consumption of automatic cartridges - it will be very, very expensive in total.

          drinks
          1. Sancho_SP 12 June 2019 22: 22 New
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            So the fact of the matter is that the police are not the army. The absolute cost of cartridges consumed by the police is less than the cost of pasting cars with foil or replacing signboards on cabinets. Excluding SOBR and OMON, not many employees carry the machine gun, and they do not train often. Where do the trainloads of cartridges do?

            And as for the price - I'm talking about the price of weapons. AK-based 9x39 is a reliable and cheap solution for police tasks. Bringing AKSU to an acceptable state, let’s say so.
            1. Horse, people and soul 12 June 2019 22: 55 New
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              AK-based 9x39 is a reliable and cheap solution for police tasks.


              What is the difference between the terminal ballistics of a light bullet from a heavy one? A light bullet better penetrates an obstacle (protection, clothing, light barrier) and quickly loses energy, has no tendency to over-penetrate. A heavy bullet, on the contrary, has a tendency to over-penetrate and retains energy longer with distance.

              Is this what you propose to the police to shoot in the city with heavy 9x39 bullets?

              And do not feel sorry for random children, pregnant with prams, the disabled, and just idly curious citizens who are from their windows and who accidentally find themselves at home (and not even far away!) With a gunner from a 9x39 assault rifle?

              In fact, the police are trying to use light bullets. Example: Fiocchi Black Mamba 9x19 weighs 100 grains with a standard of 124 and 115 grains.

              drinks
              1. Sancho_SP 14 June 2019 11: 40 New
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                And what is the problem of making a light bullet in 9x39? Let it be aluminum)
  • Tests 9 June 2019 21: 02 New
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    At airports, with a flight delay, charming civilian girls with spaniel paws or golden retrievers are easily calculated, which bypass the waiting room, or the flow of passengers is cut before entering the airport at the taxi and bus stops. They are, in most countries, on duty completely without weapons. The specifics of the service ... But do not give the PPS or DPS something more serious than the PM ... In the history of Severodvinsk, not the most criminal city in the Russian Federation, there have been cases of thefts and buses, and KAMAZ drunk. Bus on the street Lomonosov just before leaving on Lomonosov Square (the very center of the city) the policemen stopped the policemen with the help of the Ksenia from the first shot on wheels. And on the "KAMAZ - 5511" in the country from the PM, either 10, or 11 rounds left. They didn’t know, or didn’t want to know, the ATC logistic officers had the nomenclature for PMU, there were only 57-N-181 and 57-N-181C ... On the Solza River, poachers wanted to get some salmon, they removed a scalp pipe from one inspector of Rybnadzor, and they wrinkled the second well. There were only two “fishermen” at the net, there were 6 more at the bonfire, they had small things and a shotgun - a pump-neck (next to it, because hazel grouse flutters, black grouse and capercaillie, geese pull, ducks - mallards and gogol), except for a pipe and knives. 2 "Ksenia" sober up all the poachers and clean their brains ... With PM in the taiga on the bank of the river with a high bank against the pump, it was somehow not at all fun ...
    1. Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 20: 05 New
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      In Tallinn, in the 90s, they tried to stop the car from Uzi near a plywood factory on a viaduct. Glory to you, Lord, that not a single bullet hit anyone or anywhere! There are four lanes on the viaduct, city buses, trams to and fro, cars, nearby houses, people walk along the sidewalks.

      After this incident, the Uzi was taken away from the police. Here it was precisely in Uzi. Ksenia, by the way, might have worked better. But there would be corpses in the car.
    2. Sancho_SP 12 June 2019 22: 15 New
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      And here you slightly replace concepts. To communicate with KAMAZ and other buses, we have traffic police, which move only by crews and are always on wheels. You can give them quite ordinary AKSs.

      But everything else is already like organized gangs, calling them "poachers" you greatly soften. It is necessary to work with them differently.
  • storm 10 June 2019 01: 28 New
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    A normal trained fighter needs a Kalashnikov assault rifle and a pistol (Yarygin, Lebedev ...) 9x19mm, everything else from the crafty .....
    All these numerous "special forces" of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the FSB, the Russian Guard with submachine guns will "rush" against punks and unarmed combatants, but as soon as the matter concerns a business trip to the North Caucasus, all these "toys" are surrendered to weapons, and they take AK, SVD and PM (if there is nothing else ...).
    Who does not know how to shoot from AK or PM, he still will not become a sniper if he picks up “Cedar”, “Cypress” or Beretta ....
    1. Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 08: 41 New
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      Well, well, yes. Kalash and pistol, as a spare weapon. Many hang a gun on their chests on their armor. Then it is also an additional protection. And get it quickly.

      And in the Caucasus, the Ducs are generally driven up by APCs and beaten around the house with terrorist fighters from the KPVT. There, no one would have thought for MP5 with 9x19.

      But this is just not normal. But it’s normal to “go in” and let out fear on drunks with kitchen knives and shotguns in high-rise buildings or in wooden buildings. And here MP5 jewelry accuracy is already needed.
    2. Horse, people and soul 10 June 2019 08: 59 New
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      Who does not know how to shoot from AK or PM, he still will not become a sniper if he picks up “Cedar”, “Cypress” or Beretta ....


      Well, let's say, if we are talking about Beretta, then a heavy pistol with locking and 9x19 shoots much softer than the PM without locking and with a half weak 9x18 cartridge. This heavy gun forgives the mistakes of an inept shooter, which the PM does not forgive. So that...

      I didn’t shoot a pistol for 22 years, but before that I shot from PM, and here, in 2010, a friend of IPSC officer invited me to shoot from his stainless Sig P226 into the shooting range. So after 22 years of break, the first series got from this Shig weighing 1200 grams of 9 pieces into a circle 5 cm in diameter and one bullet five cm from this group.
      And immediately after, Shiga shot Walter from a plastic weighing 700-800 grams, just hitting a target with a wild scatter and without such beauty.

      This means that a heavy gun forgives the shooter's mistakes and compensates for the recoil force with its weight.
      The light and plastic gun must be held tight.

      hi
  • faterdom 10 June 2019 19: 50 New
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    Quote: Timeout
    Quote: faterdom
    Dealt with PP-90 and PP-92.

    And PP-92 what kind of beast?
    The length when folded is about 254 mm, when unfolded 508 mm. The barrel had an external thread for installing a silencer.

    Ukrainian designer Igor Alekseenko creatively redesigned the PP-90 design by adding a collapsible rear sight and changing the caliber to 9x19mm. The updated submachine gun received the name Goblin, but did not go into production. Russian designers also decided to release a version of a folding submachine gun chambered for 9x19mm. The new version received the designation PP-92.


    Here is another PP-93. PP-92 did not find the picture.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Timeout 11 June 2019 13: 47 New
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      Ayayay, dear. Why engage in copy paste? Infa from this resource:
      http://gunsa.ru/skladnye-pistolety-pulemety.html

      The fact is that PP-92 does not exist in nature. And in order not to be unfounded, a link to the developer's site:
      http://www.kbptula.ru/ru/karta-sajta

      In the small arms section. Some things must be approached with imagination ...
      1. faterdom 11 June 2019 21: 29 New
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        Well copy-paste ... You asked, I searched. Yes, I was mistaken, of course I didn’t see PP-92 in my eyes, I had to write PP-93. PP-90 has the only advantage - when folded, it has a surprisingly small box, you won’t think that the weapon at all. Everything else is a minus, it is inconvenient to lay out not very fast (if you count in a combat situation), it is inconvenient to hold, it is inconvenient to shoot, and in addition to the whole batch that we had - it’s mandatory that one of the kit’s stores get stuck, and it’s necessary to pull out two swaying hands. And the PP-93 is already much better, but not so compact (sometimes important). But in the end I would personally prefer Stechkin to him, it’s more convenient, but in real life it’s worth a lot.
  • Tests 10 June 2019 20: 55 New
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    Horse, people and souls (Incitatus), dear, I have not heard about such a sad story. If I understand you correctly, this story happened on the Pärnus highway? There, in Soviet times, both people and transport are around the clock. So you remember our minister, foreign affairs: "Morons," ... five "!" And, if I understood you correctly, they didn’t shoot at the police ... sad ...