Submachine gun: yesterday, today, tomorrow. Part of 8. Submachine guns 3-th generation. Innovations and Priorities

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Last time, we stopped at the fact that already during the war years, soldiers of the warring armies began to distribute questionnaires in order to find out their opinion about a promising submachine gun. For example, 6 in May 1943, the Australian army sent out a questionnaire to a large number of soldiers with combat experience. The questionnaire was focused primarily on the design of small weapons. For example, there were such questions, where would they prefer to have a reloading handle, and did they think that a submachine gun needed a bayonet. The results of the survey were analyzed by Major Eric Hall, after which he, using the information received, designed a new submachine gun “Code”, very different from “Owen”. In principle, it was all the same "Owen", only the store on it was not installed on top, but was inserted into its handle. It turned out that most soldiers liked just such a system of ammunition. Improvements have been made to balancing weapons. But in the end we got a sample of a rather futuristic shape, obviously sinning with wartime minimalism.


Submachine gun "Kokoda" МCEM-1.



The test was held in the British Army in Pendin from 8 to 16 in September 1947, along with Patchett, BSA, British MCEM-3 and STAN Mk.V. machine guns. During the tests, "Kokod" received the MCEM-1 index (stands for "military carbine, experimental model"). In the process of firing, the sample heated up very quickly, and the welds that held the case and trigger together were cracked, that is, the welding turned out to be of poor quality! He lost outright to his rivals Kokod, but it is impossible not to notice that by its design it was a very advanced mechanism, which could well be attributed to the third generation of submachine guns. It was compact and had a second grip fixed almost at the very muzzle of the trunk. Its length with extended shoulder rest was equal to 686 mm, and the mass in the uncharged state was 3,63 kg. The magazine on the 30 cartridges was inserted into the pistol grip from the bottom, and there was a trigger in it. The rate of fire was at the level of 500 rds / min, the initial speed of the bullet 365 m / s, with the barrel length 203 mm.

Submachine gun: yesterday, today, tomorrow. Part of 8. Submachine guns 3-th generation. Innovations and Priorities

Submachine gun "Kokoda" with extended butt and no store.

As you can see, many technical solutions of submachine guns of the future, including our Russian submachine gun Veresk CP-2, which probably took all the best from foreign and domestic samples of this type of weapon, were embodied in it. But about him the material on the VO was already (“Submachine Gun CP-2“ Heather ””, 14 March 2014). And if we compare it with other models of military and post-war time, then again we will see that ... they were usually created on the principle of "step by step" (step by step), when one designer came up with one thing, another with another, and then already a third person united their “steps” into something fundamentally new, and therefore caused everyone to admire.


CP-2 "Heather"

And again, many of the development was already ahead of its time, but, nevertheless, fell “not to the court”. Indeed, in the same 1942 competition to replace PPSH-41, the result of which was the appearance of a Soudaev submachine gun in our army, the submachine gun designer Shchurovsky test site Nikolai Rukavishnikov also participated, in which the store was located in the handle and ... there was a bolt incident on the barrel. By the way, an interesting article by Mikhail Degtyaryov “Who is the first?” Was published in the magazine “Kalashnikov”. Rukavishnikov's experienced submachine gun ”, in which his construction was described in great detail. That is, here too we were “ahead of the planet” throughout, and Rukavishnikov himself, in his conceptual vision of what a machine pistol should be, overtook the Czech designer Yaroslav Holecek with his vz. 48, and the lieutenant of the British Army Podsenkovsky, who presented the MCEM-2 submachine gun to the competition along with Kokoda as a replacement for STAN in 1944. It is hard to imagine that the British and Australians learned about what Rukavishnikov invented. They themselves realized that, in the case of Kokoda, the store in the handle was located exactly according to the demands of the workers. But, nevertheless, it is pleasant to realize that we had thought of this decision a little earlier, and in addition it was our designer who had combined this technical solution with another - a gate that was incident on the barrel. True, it is vz. 48 first in the world went into mass production. And, by the way, where did he then not fight, starting with Cuba and ending with the countries of the Middle East.


Msem-xnumx. The length of the 2 mm, the magazine on the 380 ammo is located in the grip. The submachine gun was well balanced, which allowed it to be fired with one hand. The shutter in the form of a half-cylinder has a length of 18 mm and almost completely closes the trunk. The shutter is retracted in the same way as on the American M216 - with the help of fingers. Holster is also a butt, like a Stechkin pistol. PP had a very high rate of fire, which is why, perhaps, he was not accepted for service.


Msem-xnumx. Front view.


Msem-xnumx. Oncoming shutter.

But then everything again turned out exactly the same as with us. There was a good PPD-40. Was! But ... he was not very technological, and therefore expensive to manufacture. And what did Shpagin do? Just simplified it in relation to the needs of mass production! Yaroslav Holechek combined two innovations in his development at once - the store in the handle and the shutter incident on the barrel. But ... its PP case remained traditional, cylindrical, and therefore sensitive to contamination. Production of the new model began in the 1949 year. Note that at first it was designed for 9 × 19 mm cartridges “Parabellum”, but in the same year the Czechoslovak army, under pressure from the Soviet Union, instead introduced this cartridge to our domestic 7,62 × 25 mm from TT. And, it is believed that this submachine gun from this only won. It was exported to Cuba, Chad, Syria and Libya, as well as Mozambique, Niger and Somalia.


Submachine gun vz. 48 (aka Sa. 23).

And here in Israel there was “his own Shpagin”, a young officer, Uziel Gal, who essentially repeated the design of Holecek (whether Gal was familiar with his submachine gun or not, experts still have heated debates) but in a more technological and adapted form for war in the conditions of the sandy desert. So, he provided in the walls of the bolt-box large stamped “pockets” for sand and mud that had gotten inside, and at the same time became stiffening ribs. The hinged lid improved the cleaning convenience by an order of magnitude compared to the one-piece and fairly long receiver of the Czech PP, which looked like a pipe. That is, it has always been and always will be who goes along the path of individual improvements, and someone manages to solve the problem in a complex and at a higher technological level.


A sample of the standard "Uzi" with a metal folding butt.

But the most important thing is that after the decades that followed, the layout of the vz. 48 (also known as Sa.23) and “Uzi”, put into service in 1954, became generally accepted for a whole family of small-sized submachine guns, which turned out to be many samples, for example: MAC-10, MPi 69, Steyr TMP, PP- 2000, MP7 and many others.


Msem-xnumx with a bayonet. Well, why the bayonet on such a short weapon?

And, oddly enough, the war showed that military experts of the 30s, who claimed that the PP was a police weapon, turned out to be right in the end. Already at the end of the war, the automatic rifles and assault rifles that appeared under the intermediate cartridge sharply narrowed the niche of submachine guns and practically drove them out of the army. This happened, for example, in the Soviet army after adopting the SKS carbines and the AK-47 assault rifle, while in the USA the automatic rifle became the dominant weapon. A similar situation took place in Europe with the CETME and FAL rifles, well, and the submachine guns remained to the border guards, gendarmes, police and special forces. In the army, they were now used very limitedly: for arming tankers, as well as technical personnel. And, again, in the US Army, even the experts of the water treatment service received the M16 rifles, and not the submachine guns. But various “security guards” became their main consumers, which caused a real boom among firms that were engaged in their production. A lot of PP within the framework of military aid went to the countries of the third world, where they fought against each other for a long time, and very often past allies now fought against each other. New concepts of pistol-machine guns, new ideas appeared, and all this, in turn, at the turn of the century gave rise to new designs.

To be continued ...
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  1. -6
    April 10 2019 18: 35
    Russian submachine gun "Veresk" SR-2, probably taking all the best from foreign and domestic samples of this type of weapon.

    Heather SR-2 is already an automatic machine by design, only under a powerful pistol cartridge, in which the magazine with cartridges is located in the shaft in the handle.
    1. +3
      April 10 2019 19: 54
      Heather SR-2 -...

      hi ... add history:

    2. +6
      April 10 2019 20: 13
      Excuse me, do you attach bark when you compose your texts? Or is it your kind of humor, peculiar ... in some way.

      "Automatic by design", and a submachine gun by design - what? "Only for a powerful pistol cartridge" ... What cartridge? 9x18 powerful? Or 9x19? What is his POWERFUL patron, uncle !!!? And to top it off, he explained to everyone that he had the store "in the mine" in the handle, otherwise no one knows this model and is not visible in the article in the photo. laughing No, it should have been written like this, "Around Laughter" died of laughter. Oh my God, what a talent ... laughing

      PS / About the cortex - I meant the cerebral cortex.

      Dear Author, thanks hi drinks
      1. -1
        April 10 2019 20: 31
        Quote: Sea Cat
        PS / About the cortex - I meant the cerebral cortex.

        Train your core, my young and hot fan laughing
        The Veresk SR-2 submachine gun has an automatic design. The cartridge is powerful - 9x21 mm Russian, and not 9x18 mm.
        Heather SR-2 is still a submachine gun in class, and according to the device, an automatic machine, with a gas outlet, a bolt frame, and other amenities of a more adult life.
        If today I got up on the wrong foot. Then tomorrow get up with that one and start living without rudeness and arrogance. Without snotty, I’ll figure out how to write to me.
        1. +4
          April 10 2019 20: 45
          ... you cross in a shooter laughing .... In Sniper-Apic for example ... bully
          1. +7
            April 10 2019 20: 54
            It is impossible to play chess with the opponent if the opponent plays "Chapaya". Then you need not move the pieces, but the board ...

            laughing
          2. +5
            April 10 2019 20: 55
            Good evening, colleague Sanchez! Well, where am I to shoot with him, he certainly shoots in the same way as he expresses his "thoughts". drinks
            1. +1
              April 10 2019 22: 30
              hi ...Kind and funny fellow ... drinks
        2. +7
          April 10 2019 20: 47
          automatic design automatic


          I will definitely keep this pearl.

          laughing
          1. +2
            April 11 2019 06: 18
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            I will definitely keep this pearl.
            Deagle is probably also an automatic ...
        3. +5
          April 10 2019 20: 53
          You are incorrigible with your poke. Well, to hell with you. "By class p / p, and by device automatic" - A "in the garden of elder, and in Kiev uncle." Be healthy, Major, I wish you success and continue to please everyone with your "aphorisms". hi
          1. 0
            April 10 2019 21: 08
            Quote: Sea Cat
            You are incorrigible with your poking., Well, to hell with you.

            I will not be able to re-educate me. I can only get nasty in response to rudeness. And I consider my behavior to be acceptable norms of behavior on the Internet. I do not like it when they try to stick their problems on the surface of "education" and "good manners".
            Automata created in the USSR-Russia have a characteristic automation system - gas evacuation. At a submachine gun, gas exhaust automation with locking is almost never found, because under the usual pistol cartridge, simpler automation schemes were traditionally used in the era of submachine guns. Under the intermediate cartridge, they switched completely to the gas outlet, because other types of automation under the more powerful cartridge did not justify themselves.
            1. +6
              April 10 2019 21: 12
              And what about the flanges? Reduced, hopefully?

              laughing

              I require reduced flanges in the comments on this article!
            2. +4
              April 10 2019 21: 23
              I have no problem, take it easy. And you can count your behavior as any kind of score. To me all this from the high bell tower. But if you poke people around, there will be others besides me poking your noses at your understanding of "good manners".
              So what's up with the flanges downsized yet?
              1. 0
                April 11 2019 06: 22
                Quote: Sea Cat
                So what's up with the flanges downsized yet?
                Not yet. Still old-fashioned.
                Will have to myself.
                I demand to get rid of a cartridge with a protruding flange (7,62x54) and adopt a cartridge with a reduced flange (less than the diameter of the base of the sleeve)!
                ..
                So ok?
                1. +2
                  April 11 2019 08: 32
                  It’s normal if the fix is ​​not an idea, which must be repeated in any topic and in every comment.

                  "Military Review" is not a specific specialized medical resource on mental pathology.
                  1. +1
                    April 11 2019 08: 33
                    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                    "Military Review" is not a specific specialized medical resource on mental pathology.
                    Sometimes big doubts arise.
                    However, these are all forums.
                2. -1
                  April 11 2019 08: 58
                  Quote: Simargl
                  Not yet. Still old-fashioned.
                  Will have to myself.
                  I demand to get rid of a cartridge with a protruding flange (7,62x54) and adopt a cartridge with a reduced flange (less than the diameter of the base of the sleeve)!
                  ..
                  So ok?

                  It is right. In modern weapons, they seek to reduce the mass of weapons, the mass of ammunition, and increase the accuracy of weapons. Roughly speaking, they strive to win in everything without losing anything. Therefore, you need to look in the weapon-cartridge system for what you can get rid of without harming. And such places are in weapons. One such place is the cartridge flange design. Reducing the sleeve flange makes the sleeve easier, and this is also easier for the cartridge itself. A flange of a sleeve of a smaller diameter will make it possible to construct a more compact, and therefore lighter movable bolt of the weapon - this immediately raises the accuracy of the weapon and reduces the mass of the weapon. A smaller linear lock allows you to make smaller in size, and therefore the mass of the receiver of the weapon, while maintaining the rigidity of the receiver necessary for the accuracy of the weapon. Or increase the stiffness of the receiver without increasing its mass, which will create a more accurate and heaped weapon without increasing the mass of the weapon. If the flange of the sleeve is large, then with a decrease in the mass and dimensions of the bolt we will face a restriction associated with a large diameter of the flange of the sleeve, and to reduce the mass of the weapon by reducing the barrel thickness and wall thickness of the receiver, we will make these parts less rigid, which means that the accuracy and accuracy of the weapon will drop . Plus, we will carry heavier cartridges with us. Heavier cartridges, when huge quantities are produced for the army, are also more expensive cartridges, and more expensive cartridges in transportation.

                  The heavy barrel and light parts of the weapon’s automatic weapons are increased accuracy and accuracy of the self-loading and automatic weapons, the best balance of the weapon when shooting: that of a pistol, that of a machine gun, that of a sniper rifle. The smaller mass of the weapon-cartridge complex is the best shooter mobility, less fatigue (fatigue only when shooting affects the speed of the shooter’s reaction and concentration of attention - accuracy of aimed fire), the shooter operates faster in light combat with a light weapon, which gives him an increased chance to shoot and hit the enemy first.

                  By reducing the flange of the sleeve we get a number of advantages. A cartridge with a protruding edge of the sleeve is firewood from the 19th century. The flangeless cartridge sleeve can be improved by constructing a new sleeve with a flange reduced in relation to the diameter of the sleeve.
                  It interferes with the banal laziness to redesign the cartridge case and greed, because it works like that and it will have to change something, put old cartridges somewhere. Old cartridges are fired at ranges and in shooting ranges, weapons under the old cartridge are subsequently easily upgraded to a cartridge case with a smaller flange or sold to the civilian market with a fully automatic fire shut off mode. And already a new weapon designed for new cartridges gives the advantages described above. As a result: fewer soldiers will die in battle, the army will become more effective only by reducing a small part in the cartridge, which allowed changing a number of parts when designing a weapon - a reduced sleeve flange.

                  Creating a light and oblique weapon in order to report to the authorities that our machine gun / machine gun / sniper rifle is easier than a potential enemy is easier than creating a light and accurate weapon. But with light and precise weapons, the enemy will mow down an army armed with light and oblique weapons. You need to improve the cartridge and weapons under it, so that the army becomes more protected and effective. It’s impossible to fill up with corpses. It is necessary to win with the mind.
                  1. +2
                    April 11 2019 09: 04
                    Don’t boil!
                    The enemy with blasters will run, and with us all 7,62x54R will be in service!
                    However, PMA will not be abandoned. wassat
                    1. -3
                      April 11 2019 09: 44
                      Quote: Simargl
                      Don’t boil!

                      I'm not boiling laughing I work methodically with people. With high self-esteem, I am teaching Starpers to think in more detail, not to smear thoughts around the globe with a thin layer, but to concentrate on solving more specific problems.
                      There is a task: to create a weapon more accurate, easier, using all the knowledge and technology accumulated in the design of weapons and in modern engineering production. Aliens did not fly to Earth and the secret of the blaster from People in Black did not bring. We begin to design without aliens ... I already suggested a cartridge with a reduced flange, to reduce the caliber from 7,62 mm to 7 mm, to increase the efficiency of the machine, I already proposed to modify the shutter of a modern pistol according to the Belgian model in order to improve the balance of the gun and reduce its weight I have already suggested that a gas exhaust system with zero weight and not influencing barrel oscillations as modern gas exhaust systems I have already proposed.
                      Waiting for new thoughts?
                  2. 0
                    April 11 2019 18: 32
                    Major, excuse me, but this is already some kind of paranoid delirium ... I once gently hinted that there was enough "about flanges" in every topic and in almost every comment, but you apparently did not understand.

                    Paranoid delirium (synonym: primary - systemic - interpretative - intellectual) - it is very difficult to detect in the early stages. It is built according to the laws of the "curve of logic." The chain of statements can be very believable and to find a defect in the patient’s thinking requires a lot of experience. Paranoid delirium occurs in adulthood. Usually - 40-45 years. With this type of delirium, “the patient thinks correctly within the limits of falsely established truths.”]


                    http://wiki.1vc0.ru/enciklopediya/psixiatriya/psihopatologiya/bred-klassifikaciya-breda-bredovye-idei.html
                    1. -1
                      April 11 2019 19: 19
                      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                      Major, excuse me, but this is already some kind of paranoid delirium ... I once gently hinted that there was enough "about flanges" in every topic and in almost every comment, but you apparently did not understand.

                      You yourself have not tried to contact a psychiatrist? If you notice something suspicious in people, then the problem may be just in your head?
                      In my opinion, it’s for you from the reduced flanges, and not from me. I observe a picture of how such ammunition is becoming more widespread and I understand their advantages and prospects. You started to write to me about old erlikons, you decided that there were microexractors inside and everything flies through the trunk. You saw it on Wikipedia in the picture. I also saw this picture. An excellent gun, but in a small caliber this will not work. This for large calibers, this may work. I explained to you that this is not about erlikons and microexractors. Sausages you from the fact that I mention the reduced flanges. Relax and forget about these erlicons with microextractors. In the glock, it is not a microextractor and the flange is large, not reduced. You have unhealthy associations with small flanges smile
                      1. -1
                        April 11 2019 19: 33
                        This is directly your topic.

                        The nonsense of invention is the patient’s unshakable conviction that he has made a theoretical or practical discovery of unusual and even universal significance, and its implementation will benefit mankind ....


                        Moreover, which is characteristic

                        ... It is always accompanied by unusually stubborn, clumsy behavior.


                        https://lib.sale/uchebnik-sudebnaya-psihiatriya/bred-izobretatelstva-nepokolebimoe-ubejdenie.html
                      2. 0
                        April 11 2019 19: 35
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        Moreover, which is characteristic

                        ... It is always accompanied by unusually stubborn, clumsy behavior.

                        Relax and imagine a huge flange in a glock. And everything will get better drinks
                      3. -1
                        April 11 2019 21: 54
                        Good evening buddy! hi It seems to me that our "client" is absolutely and one hundred percent sure of his own infallibility. Thank God I did not get into the "old-school with high self-esteem" with him, obviously because he already managed to write me into the "snotty fans". laughing In my opinion, he has the same place in the same room as our mutual friend Carbine. fool
                      4. -1
                        April 12 2019 01: 18
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        In my opinion, he has the same place in the same room as our mutual friend Carbine.

                        How did you decide that you are infallible and can give assessments to people where to write them down, to what are your "mutual friends"? Instead of pouting my lips, I would open the guides to modern western standardized ammunition, find there all the new cartridges with a reduced flange. Then I looked at the samples of modern weapons, in which these cartridges with a reduced flange are used, and tried to design similar samples, but on the cartridge of an old design: with a protruding rim or a conventional flangeless one. A heavier weapon will come out, more bulky, less balanced, less heap. Trying to impersonate yourself smarter than others, or to belittle someone's mind, think about it: maybe you yourself have fallen behind somewhere and are swimming in the subject? 21st century in the yard. Weapon technology has advanced slightly since the introduction of the Mosin rifle in the 19th century, chambered for the protruding rim. You’re going crazy about labeling me. I like to chase at such "well-wishers". I know what I'm drowning for. The weapon is being improved. The Maxim machine gun and the Mosin rifle are outdated, the Kalashnikov assault rifle is also becoming obsolete and will end up in the same place where the Maxim machine gun and Mosin rifle are now. SVD has long been not the most accurate self-loading sniper rifle. Do you know what is not the most accurate rifle in battle? This is when you are guaranteed not to hit the enemy, and he, with more advanced and accurate weapons, is guaranteed to hit you. On the scale of the army, it will look like an endless line of coffins of your friends and colleagues. You drown for the coffins of your compatriots, and I for the saved lives. Is it so intelligible or not so clear?
                      5. -1
                        April 12 2019 03: 51
                        So intelligible or not clear already?


                        Yes, it’s clear, everything has been clear for a long time. And not just me. Calm down and take care of your nerves. Have a drink, they say it helps. hi
                      6. -1
                        April 12 2019 09: 00
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Yes, it’s clear, everything has been clear for a long time.

                        I don’t see yet what is clear. The reduced flange allows for a more compact and lightweight shutter, and a weapon receiver. We saved a lot of weapons on the moving parts of the weapon automation and the receiver while maintaining the stiffness of the receiver - this not only made the weapon easier, but also opened up the possibility of using a barrel with a heavier profile without increasing the mass of the weapon - this will increase the accuracy and accuracy of the weapon.
                        A heavier barrel profile is used in high-precision weapons, lighter barrel profiles have worse accuracy and accuracy. This is a compromise and it is known to any competent and experienced shooter, even without a higher technical education. Lightening the barrel — making the walls of the barrel thinner — makes weapons less accurate.
                        The rigidity of the receiver or receiver also affects the accuracy and accuracy of small arms. An elementary example: a rifle for target shooting without a mine for a magazine in the receiver and with a mine for a magazine in the receiver: the mine makes the receiver less rigid - this additional hole in the receiver weakens it and such a rifle shows worse accuracy. And this is a compromise.
                        But you can just take two small things in the dash: with a mine for a store and without a mine for a store, and shoot at the target - a small thing with a mine shows the worst accuracy. Take a small piece with a match trunk profile and lightweight (some kind of hunting) - a more heap heavy profile near the match trunk.
                        The lighter moving parts of the weapon automation (shutter and bolt frame) allow you to design a lighter, more accurate and better balanced weapon. Everyone loves ergonomics. And this is ergonomics: when the weapon is lighter, more stable in the hands, the center of gravity and the center of inertia of the weapon are located more optimally. Inside the weapon, the work of self-loading automation causes less disturbance and oscillation of the weapon during firing, which increases the accuracy and efficiency of the fire.
                        This is achieved by reducing the flange of the cartridge case.
                        This is not higher mathematics. What is incomprehensible here?
                      7. 0
                        April 12 2019 15: 39
                        Yes, I'm not talking about the flange, I'm talking about you. request
                      8. -2
                        April 12 2019 16: 13
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Yes, I'm not talking about the flange, I'm talking about you.

                        I am always in order. Why such conclusions that I have no order?

                        Buying for the Defense Ministry an old American cartridge of development of the 50s of the 20th century, or remaining in an even older Russian, developed in the 19th century, modern Russia is rapidly slipping into weapons archaic. I described the consequences of such a roll. This is against the backdrop of statements that the MO plans to make feature films.
                        Instead of a single film, for the same money, they would develop a sleeve with a reduced flange for American bullets or for bullets of their own design. They made a new sniper cartridge for the army with a more modern sleeve with a reduced flange. Under it, it will be possible to design a more advanced bolt and self-loading sniper rifle. Army arsenals need to be updated with new and more advanced weapons, and not sit still.
                        Pistol cartridges produced in small batches will begin to be produced with a reduced flange. With 9x18 mm, Russia is gradually leaving. New does not copy 1 in 1 in the West, we are not Papuans to just copy everything. And to do a little better - right away with a reduced liner flange. Weapon designers are realizing the advantages of such a sleeve in new models of pistols. Weapon upgrades are possible. And the understanding will come that the transition to more modern types of cartridges is beneficial. Because a weapon designed for such ammunition will have more advanced characteristics. The turn will come both to the machine gun and to other models of small arms. The army will become stronger not at the expense of women who are "giving birth to more", but thanks to more modern and effective weapons.

                        A movie will always have time to make. This is not an army, where instead of modern weapons, inflatable chapels and movie theaters. Weapons in the first place. The cartridge of the 19th century against the background of the prayer and movie theaters leads to disturbing thoughts in the 21st century.
                      9. 0
                        April 15 2019 07: 56
                        Do not swords beads before fellow less ...
                      10. 0
                        April 16 2019 15: 17
                        Quote: mark1
                        Do not swords beads before fellow less ...

                        I'm not even trying to explain anything to the oaks. They climb to me with their bziki. Apparently, they consider themselves to be know-it-all geniuses, whom the communist patorgs told back in the patrol meetings back in the 50s that AK would never be created better (which is an absolute propaganda lie).
                        But there are also literate people, as opposed to the first ones who do not know, but having read the topic, they will quickly remember what mass is multiplied by acceleration, they will figure out what a good balance of a weapon is when shooting, which makes it possible to make an accurate aimed shot, read about , and they will come to the conclusion that a cartridge with a reduced flange in any shooter self-loading and automatic weapons gives a gain in the quality of shooting: in accuracy, accuracy, rate of aimed fire, accurate weapons are better than oblique and weapons are well balanced - more accurate, and more its easy and less tiring even hand, allows the management of such weapons by force of human muscles faster and more accurately, etc. I figured it out when I delved into the topic.
                        And they will begin to produce in Russia cartridges with a reduced flange for pistols, machine guns, sniper rifles and machine guns, and good modern weapons for modern ammunition that will prevent the army from dying on the battlefield. While clinging to the cartridge of the 19th century, someone is pretty good at this. But in case of conflict, people will die. Therefore, it’s time to take care of the Korobochkins, who is making money on the supply of archaic weapons to the Russian army, and to begin deliveries of modern weapons right now. And not an outdated foreign from the mid-20th century, as some suggest.
                        Design engineers have no problem designing an advanced weapon under a more advanced cartridge. Here the problem is hidden elsewhere.
                  3. 0
                    April 13 2019 12: 29
                    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                    The heavy barrel and light parts of the weapon’s automatic weapons are increased accuracy and accuracy of the self-loading and automatic weapons, the best balance of the weapon when shooting: that of a pistol, that of a machine gun, that of a sniper rifle.

                    The front balance is five! I'll take it to memorials.
                    Actually, this can be finished - a classic example of a sofa thinker who has never shot a weapon in his life.
                    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                    by constructing a new sleeve with a flange reduced in relation to the diameter of the sleeve.

                    Yeah, why learn history when you can just philosophize while lying on the couch - 1963, USA, SCHV program, .224 E5 Winchester cartridge, I advise you to study why it did not take off.
                    Yes, and the dimensions of the shutter and box are not limited to the size of the flange and the maximum size of the sleeve - do you catch the difference? If you have two cartridges with a maximum sleeve diameter of 10 mm but on the flange is 10 mm and on the other 8 then the box and the shutter will still have to be made of the same size, the difference will only be in the cup of the shutter.
                    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                    lightweight moving automation parts

                    When will you begin to form? Question - the gate frame with the AP15 shutter has a weight of about 280-300 g, the gas exhaust system allows you to install adjustable gas blocks that allow you to fine-tune the automation for a specific barrel length and pressure, but nevertheless the AR15 design uses a heavy buffer pressing the shutter frame and the mass of the moving parts is equal to that of AK - what's up? why don't the Americans just abandon the maxim buffer by strangling the gas outlet so that it works without a weighting agent?
                    1. 0
                      April 16 2019 01: 57
                      Quote: gross kaput
                      The front balance is five! I'll take it to memorials.

                      If you still understood what you are dragging to memoriz. Forgot how you argued with me for a week when I wrote how the accuracy of the SVD rifle dropped when they simply increased the tolerances in the gas outlet system during the competition? You are a fan of reading disputes without knowing the subject. This is the history of the competition, which resulted in the adoption of the SVD. You do not even know how many SVD samples passed through the competition, what changes the rifle underwent during the competition, and how this was justified. You remember writing about the impulse, and even "proved" that the mass of the moving parts of the weapon's automation does not affect the accuracy. And it does. There is a lot of influence there. And he wrote nonsense about the gas outlet system. I drew balls, but I did not understand how the weapon worked. Your weapon is static, so nothing affects. But in real life, a weapon is held by a person who has a bunch of human joints and joints that have such characteristics that allow the joints to move in all directions with a certain freedom of movement. The weapon held in the hands of the shooter is not static. It has inertia and a center of inertia. Therefore, different weapons shoot so differently even with the same cartridge. In a weapon, accuracy is influenced by every detail, how it is located and where, what mass it has, and not just which cartridge is loaded into the weapon.
                      Quote: gross kaput
                      When will you begin to form? Question - the gate frame with the AP15 shutter has a weight of about 280-300 g, the gas exhaust system allows you to install adjustable gas blocks that allow you to fine-tune the automation for a specific barrel length and pressure, but nevertheless the AR15 design uses a heavy buffer pressing the shutter frame and the mass of the moving parts is equal to that of AK - what's up?

                      What are the adjustable airblocks of the AR-15? Modified arches with a gas exhaust system like SVD make adjustable gas blocks. But this is not an AR-15, but an AR-15 with a piston system, as it is called in the USA. In a standard arch, a gas piston is located inside the bolt frame and a long gas pipe leads to it. The gas piston at the arch is closer to the axis of the barrel, more precisely even located exactly on the axis of the barrel.
                      The mass of the slide frame of the AR-15 is reduced to increase the accuracy of the rifle. There are sports versions of the arch with a lightweight bolt frame, and even with a lightweight made of titanium - even lighter. Especially for competitions such shutter frames are produced, where accuracy and accuracy, the rate of fire are important. The spring has to be changed under a lightweight bolt frame, but it's worth it. You have information about the AR-15 from the 60s, and very selective.
                      In addition, it is important where the center of inertia of the AR-15 shutter frame is located, and where the AK is. In systems with locking, the shutter can and should be lightened, the center of mass of the bolt group is moved closer to the axis of the barrel channel, it is desirable to fully align with the axis of the barrel channel to align the center of mass of the bolt group with the center of mass of the bullet moving in the barrel on one horizontal axis, the back is the stop in the butt with a shoulder arrow on the same axis, so that there would be no extraneous forces deploying and tossing the rifle when shooting. In AR-15, these issues are resolved quite well, so the AR-15 with a match barrel shows high accuracy, less than 1 MOA. Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov designed the machine on other basic principles, and the AK does not have such accuracy and accuracy as the AR-15.
                      In the pistol, the center of mass of the movable bolt shifted back will cause nothing but problems when firing, because there is no emphasis on the butt. Have you shot a pistol at least once in your life? At the gun, it is desirable to slide the center of mass of the bolt onto the barrel and distribute evenly along the length of the barrel, horizontally align the center of mass of the bolt of the pistol with the axis of the barrel bore so that the gun more accurately shoots in the hand of an experienced shooter.
                      Quote: gross kaput
                      Actually, this can be finished - a classic example of a sofa thinker who has never shot a weapon in his life.

                      I could calmly say this about you, given how much nonsense you wrote to me.
                      1. 0
                        April 17 2019 12: 41
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        At the gun, the center of mass of the bolt is desirable to slide onto the barrel and distribute evenly along the length of the barrel

                        ... Even rather, distribute the mass of the shutter evenly along the length of the entire shutter, and not along the part of the shutter that fits the barrel of the gun so that when moving the shutter forward and backward, the influence of undesirable forces that arise when the shutter moves backward along not a perfect straight line, as happens when holding a gun while shooting with a shooter in his hands.
                        Roughly speaking, in order for the bolt to nod less front or back, the center of inertia of the shutter was located along the length of the pistol shutter in the middle of the shutter. The center of inertia along the height of the shutter should coincide with the center of inertia of the bullet moving in the barrel at the time of the shot in order to improve the control of the gun by the shooter during the shot, which will increase the accuracy of firing from such a gun by the trained shooter. Left-right, the pistol shutter also must not withdraw, that is, along the vertical longitudinal axis of the shutter, the center of inertia of the pistol shutter should be on the central axis of the shutter, which is also coaxial with the shaft channel inside which the bullet moves when firing.
                        Make the pistol shutter as short as possible - but this is my opinion, I like these pistols. Olympic pistol shooters may disagree with me and prefer a longer shutter. Although the same Pardini shutter is short, and most likely I am right in this.
                      2. 0
                        1 May 2019 12: 25
                        I don’t even want to comment on this enchanting stream of consciousness, you have only three problems respected - a failure in knowledge of the school physics course, poor knowledge of the material part of weapons and a lack of experience in communicating with weapons. But you do not want to learn in a striking way.
                        PS Every time I read your opuses I think that here it is the bottom of your knowledge, but each next opens up new depths and dips laughing
                        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                        Modified arches with a gas exhaust system like SVD make adjustable gas blocks. But this is not an AR-15, but an AR-15 with a piston system, as it is called in the USA.

                        But do the Americans themselves know that there are adjustable blocks only on the piston arches and on the classic DI AR-15 system they are not? laughing






                        You sometimes amaze me, well, you don’t know about something, so ask GUG something like this -ar 15 adjustable DI gas block - he, unlike you, knows laughing
                        https://www.wingtactical.com/best-rated-ar-15-gas-blocks/

                        PS Do you even go to the Hansa Shol, quite a while there were no funny characters there - boring lol
                      3. -1
                        2 May 2019 11: 12
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        I don’t even want to comment on this enchanting stream of consciousness, you have only three problems respected - a failure in knowledge of the school physics course, poor knowledge of the material part of weapons and a lack of experience in communicating with weapons. But you do not want to learn in a striking way.

                        These are optional adjustable gas units for AR-15, produced third parties. laughing
                        What is so bad about the materiel and school physics? And in SVD, you don’t know how gas exhaust automation works, and how it affects the accuracy of a rifle. He wrote nonsense to me for a week, even painted stupid pictures, but he didn’t understand how the return of weapons works, and that besides the return of the weapon, which is physical strength, a mass of physical forces arise in self-loading weapons that degrade the accuracy of the weapon, in addition to the recoil itself. You argue with me, you write a frank, illiterate hillbilly, which even a schoolboy can easily refute.
                        Open the physics textbook for secondary school. There they will explain to you that mass multiplied by acceleration gives strength, force acts in the direction of application of acceleration to the body in space. All moving parts of the rifle during operation generate forces that swing the rifle at the moment of shooting in the hands of the shooter, they are not all aligned with the bullet’s motion vector in the barrel, they are different in magnitude, occur at different times while the bullet moves in the rifle barrel, and affect negatively on the accuracy of the shot. A person cannot hold a weapon completely motionless in his hands, due to the peculiarities of human anatomy, and the weapon is knocked down from the aiming point while the bullet is still moving in the barrel, and the bullet is no longer going exactly where you aimed.
                        In addition, with the emphasis on the butt still Blagonravov at the beginning of the 20th century for such illiterate demagogues as you wrote about the shoulder of bestowal. Leverage is the simplest. It must be absent from precision weapons. The reality is still harder. Because, in addition to the centers of gravity of the weapon and all moving parts of the weapon automation, there are centers of inertia that reject weapons even when the recoil arm is missing, and we also need to minimize the influence of the forces arising when shooting from weapons related to the centers of inertia of these parts of the weapon. It is impossible to make exact weapons without knowledge of physics and understanding of the features of the human constitution. Teach physics, demagogue lol
                        And with the AR-15 you got into a puddle, you give out optional gas blocks as standard ones. In addition to Google, you also need to open the Google translation, and read what you actually post. Standard rifle AR-15 without adjustable gas unit. And there are a lot of modifications of third-party developers, because there is an open patent for this rifle in the USA, and each manufacturer can change the design of this rifle at its discretion. There are not only low-profile and adjustable gas sides, but also modified designs of the bolt frame, parts of the shutter itself, USM, receiver, barrel, forend, butt ... - everything in this rifle can be replaced, but it will be alterations from third-party manufacturers. To the original AR-15, such details no longer apply. Again you sat in a puddle hi
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        PS Do you even go to the Hansa Shol, quite a while there were no funny characters there - boring

                        If at least one of the statements in this message of mine is refuted in the Hansa, then in the Hansa there are the same stubborn and illiterate demagogues like, in fact, you. These are the basics of precision weapons. You have no idea how a weapon works or how the design of a weapon affects its accuracy. The funny character is you, not me. You yourself try to "explain to me" how the weapon fires, and you yourself write complete nonsense, aggravating your unenviable position with even more nonsense.
                        Learn physics. Knowing physics you will understand how weapons work. You have one big problem - you don’t understand how the gun shoots and gets at all. One solid dark forest in my head No.
            3. +5
              April 11 2019 04: 15
              Sorry Major Whirlwind, but this is really busting .. I always read your comas with pleasure .. somewhere I agree with you, somewhere not, but here you really wrote a frank strangeness based only on the principle of automation in essence ... you could write simply - Yes, it’s a PC with an automatic operation, unusual for PP, based on the removal of powder gases, which is more typical for machine guns and rifles .. and you wrote - an automatic machine by design than caused a banter in some and outright rudeness in others is not very cultural cheat ... essentially this work aut Math was not introduced here for a reason .. the designers wanted to reduce the mass of the bolt group thereby increasing the performance characteristics of Veresk .. a powerful 9 mm pistol cartridge with an armor-piercing bullet with a short barrel and an initial speed of more than 400 ms .. look at how compact and light it is compared with the same mini ultrasound but at the same time how much more powerful .. and again, as far as I know, automatic weapons cannot be divided into classes due to the principle of operation of automation .. yes yes yes and yes yes again the piston combined with the bolt frame very much for all of us something reminds.))))))))))))))
            4. +3
              April 11 2019 06: 50
              IMP-221 (5,56 x 36 mm)
              SIG-Sauer MPX (9 x 19 mm) "Vent" submachine guns ...
    3. 0
      April 10 2019 21: 45
      Dear "Major Whirlwind" didn’t supplement you a little
      Quote: Mayor_Vikhr

      Heather SR-2 is already an automatic machine by design, only under a powerful pistol cartridge, in which the magazine with cartridges is located in the shaft in the handle.

      Perhaps if you return the clock back, then before the appearance of AK with ammunition 7,62x39 in the Russian weapons school, he could be called "automatic"! Alas, from the end of the 40s, in the Russian arms industry, the concept of an "automatic" was assigned to a weapon with an intermediate cartridge. The nearest foreign analogs are “automatic rifles”!
      Heather cartridge - 9x21 powerful, but still pistol. So the image in question is powerful but a submachine gun.
  2. +5
    April 10 2019 19: 21
    The only negative of this article is too ..... short! good We look forward to continuing.
  3. +6
    April 10 2019 20: 07
    SA VZ 26 shooting ...... hi
  4. +4
    April 10 2019 20: 11
    Do not stop surprising, it's me about Kokoda, every time I learn something new from your articles. Thank you very much.
  5. +5
    April 10 2019 20: 26
    "...in the Soviet army after the adoption of the SKS carbines and the AK-47 assault rifle "
    Sorry for the tediousness, Vyacheslav Olegovich, but the AK-47 was not in service with the Soviet Army. This is a prototype, according to the results of military tests in which a number of changes were made and the resulting sample was adopted for service under the name AK (without numbers).
    1. +3
      April 10 2019 20: 40
      Good evening to a good friend! hi

      And about AK-47, you just dumbfounded me, had no idea about these intricacies with the name of the machine. But for sure, I saw instructions only on the AKM / S and AK-74, and on the first model - the span. In what happens. But we, thank God, have you and always correct if that. drinks
      1. +5
        April 10 2019 21: 21
        Good evening!
        There is such instruction.

        This is exactly the brochure in twenty pages, but with a different set of stamps, I found in the bowels of an immense safe in our battalion headquarters. Nevertheless, the sample that was tested in the army could not fail to be accompanied by appropriate instruction. Some happy owner of this rare instruction posted it on the net and now it is often used as evidence that the AK47 was in service. Especially the number of the brochure makes an impression, although anyone who dealt with this issue in the CA knows that numbering and quantity are not the same thing.
        It can be downloaded, it is very interesting to compare with the following, which is already for AK.
        1. +1
          April 10 2019 21: 32
          Thank! For the first time I see. And where was I to get it. Our part was new, and the instructions on the T-62 were issued from the secret only for signature. What I mean is that there, according to the direct, tank, profile, getting something was a problem.
          1. +1
            April 10 2019 22: 25
            here
            http://www.ak-info.ru/joomla/index.php/aaka/5-ak/202-ak47about49
            it is unlikely that it differs greatly, it was printed already for an accepted machine gun, and not for a prototype
            1. +1
              April 10 2019 22: 42
              You compare the manuals of 1949 and 1952.
              1. 0
                April 10 2019 22: 50
                he wrote below that, probably, for some time after being adopted, both abbreviated names were in use.
                Even if the manuals are different, this alone does not prove anything - according to the results of exploitation in the troops, there should definitely be changes.
                in the 1949 manual there is nothing that this manual is for trial operation, and it couldn’t be - such manuals were sent to the troops along with an experimental batch of machine guns, that is, in 1948
        2. +5
          April 10 2019 21: 53
          Do you believe that?



          Collie Cyborg USSR - fake
          1. +3
            April 10 2019 21: 58
            I wrote a comment on an article where Polonsky, in my opinion, described this photoshopping, although it seems that he took it at face value. There are still pictures where the robot is inserted into a battered little book. True scribe - drill the charter of the Soviet army.
            1. +2
              April 10 2019 22: 09
              This is a famous fake, which I posted here as an illustration of the fact that you should not believe "real looking" pictures on the Internet.
              1. +1
                April 10 2019 22: 15
                Could just refer to Richard Bach, if you are an Englishman, or to Kozma Prutkov, if anlofob.
                1. +2
                  April 10 2019 23: 43
                  Look out! (C) Our Kozma, naturally, of Prutkov
        3. 0
          April 10 2019 22: 24
          The first batch of AKs were released in 1948 and then entered the army for testing.
          In 1949, the AK was adopted.
          Brochure 1949, she could not go to the experimental machines.
          Maybe, of course, this is just inertia, according to which a brochure with the designation of a prototype was prepared for the adopted machine gun, but it will be possible to find out for sure only when someone publishes a resolution of the Council of Ministers - unless, of course, it simply says "Kalashnikov assault rifle" without abbreviations.
          In the meantime, it can be assumed that for some time the abbreviated name was used both this and that.
        4. 0
          April 11 2019 09: 34
          In paper form, I have only the "Manual on shooting 7,62-mm modernized Kalashnikov assault rifle (AKM and AKMS)", 1967 edition (third, revised and expanded).
    2. +6
      April 10 2019 20: 51
      This is pure Americanism, certainly in Russia is very offensive.

      AK-47, TT-33, PM-51 ...

      hi

      You can forgive the Americans. Zadornov has already explained everything about them for a long time. But ours ... clearly slanted from the army on flat feet.
      1. +5
        April 10 2019 21: 02
        Hi, Buddy, I'm glad to meet you! hi

        Vyacheslav Olegovich always pleases us, but I would like to meet more often. drinks
        1. +4
          April 10 2019 21: 48
          I have a norm of 5 articles per week. You can’t just publish me alone ...
          1. +2
            April 11 2019 06: 42
            Quote: kalibr
            I have a rate of 5 articles per week.

            Great! fellow Well this is how much you can "criticize"! bully
          2. +1
            April 11 2019 21: 56
            Olegovich hi and if not you, then who? In all other sections, just boredom is mortal, or politics, or vice versa ... wink
      2. 0
        April 13 2019 11: 48
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        This is pure Americanism, certainly in Russia is very offensive.

        And this is purely ours - not to understand the subject with such aplomb to reason.
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        AK-47

        It has already been said more than once that the first document received by the troops along with the AK was the KRS 1949 edition, for those who like to look for a black cat in the room I explain on the fingers - this service manual was SIGNED INTO SEAL on May 11, 1949. those. three months before the adoption of the AK into service, and at that time the abbreviation AK47 was used in all official documents. The first NSD on the AK appeared only in 1951. those. up to this point, the troops had only 1949 cattle. as a result, the name AK47 was used by our military personnel. Moreover, in some secondary documents it existed for a long time - for example, the "Manual on the material part and operation of the T-62 tank" published in 1968, the AK-47 assault rifle is indicated as the crew's weapon.


        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        TT-33

        Here, in general, past the box office, the TT itself entered service as an "automatic pistol of the 1930 model". the pistol was seriously modified and received a new name - "TT self-loading pistol, model 1933." under this name he appears in all instructions and manuals.



        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        PM-51

        Did you come up with it now? Neither Americans nor ours have ever used such abbreviations.
  6. +4
    April 10 2019 20: 36
    That is, it has always been and will be so who follows the path of individual improvements, and someone manages to solve the problem in a complex and at a higher technological level.


    Yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich, on the Uzi these "separate" improvements are especially noticeable, one hole for ejecting the shells (I can't call myself a window) is worth it, there is just an embrasure for shooting a twelfth caliber! fellow I am silent for weight ... hi
    1. +4
      April 10 2019 22: 02
      Nevertheless, it is used in more than 90 countries.
      1. +1
        April 11 2019 15: 40
        Quote: Undecim
        Nevertheless, it is used in more than 90 countries.

        .... Mac 10 and Mac 11. Mac 10 was produced in 45 cal and 9mm. Mac 11, in calibers 380 and 9mm. hi


        ... here too)))
    2. +1
      April 11 2019 15: 16
      ... hole for ejecting cartridges

      laughing .. Right just now (!) In the movie "lit up" fellow

      feel ... Here an interesting "copy" (not the topic) got caught ... recourse
      ... Welrod. (British) 1942
      7,65 mm and 9 mm
      manual reloading slide
      Initial bullet speed, m / s 210
      Sighting range, m 12 - 15
      Participation: World War II, war in
      Southeast Asia, the Middle East ... hi
  7. +3
    April 10 2019 21: 06
    "Itzhak's Roulette" - you know what it is?

    This is "Russian Roulette" in Jewish.

    They send the Uzi barrel into themselves, and then simultaneously press the trigger and pull out the store. If you are an Estonian, then you are 100% dead in this scenario.

    hi

    In the 90s, police got the Uzi, but after a well-known incident of police shooting at a plywood factory in Tallinn from several Uzi on a car running away to an overpass, they collected and gave it to the Kitesellers. Thank God, they didn’t hit anyone.
    1. +3
      April 10 2019 21: 11
      And you imagine in this situation PPSh with a disk of 70 rounds. Here it wouldn’t have been so easy ... wink
      1. +4
        April 10 2019 21: 19
        And if PPSH hammer on a corner and throw to the Fritz?

        laughing

        ... although EMNIP at Uzi and Ingram has a rate of fire of 1200 rounds per minute. Although there are not 70 rounds of ammunition, the whole store will fly out instantly.
        1. +3
          April 10 2019 21: 36
          Yes, I heard about the "corner", they said that lying on the ice, while he shoots all seventy, he gives a full revolution of 360+. smile
          1. +2
            April 10 2019 21: 51
            I take my word for it - check a dozen dumb!

            hi
    2. +3
      April 10 2019 23: 24
      "They direct the Uzi barrel into themselves, and then simultaneously press the trigger" ////
      -----
      This is where such things were done? belay
      Definitely not in Israel.
      1. +3
        April 10 2019 23: 45
        This is where such things were done?
        Definitely not in Israel.


        Whoever did this in Israel is no longer doing it in Israel.

        laughing
        1. +2
          April 11 2019 11: 02
          With us, even if the soldier just sends his own - uncharged! - the weapon in itself, dabbling, it will be expelled from the company. And, possibly, from combat units in general.
          The same thing - consciously send to a friend.
          And the commander of his platoon may lose his epaulette.
  8. +3
    April 10 2019 22: 09
    "Basically, it was the same 'Owen', only the magazine was not installed on top of it, but inserted into its handle. It turned out that most of the soldiers liked just such a system of ammunition."
    The term "like" or "dislike" is not a good one to describe the weapon development process. In this case, placing the magazine in the handle allows reloading the weapon almost reflexively according to the "hand finds hand" principle. This is a significant plus for the PP.
  9. 0
    April 10 2019 23: 02
    the store moved down as it became clear that the PP is not a mini-machine gun, but its own weapon class, with its own tasks.
    and it’s not necessary that its use should be reduced to the fact that you need to shoot from it while lying close to the enemy, squeezing into the ground.
    To the English it came later than everyone else, it seems.
    but the look at the PP as a kind of carbine, which suggested the presence of a bayonet, took the most grotesque forms.
    and a lot of time passed, until it became obvious that the PP itself is a powerful weapon of just melee, and pieces for him are nonsense.
    And in general, somehow with great difficulty, the thought reached the point that PP has a certain range of tasks in application, and they leave a specific imprint on the design and characteristics, and there can be no universal PP.
  10. +1
    April 11 2019 05: 14
    The US Department of Defense has decided on a new weapon for the American ground forces: it was the Swiss Brügger & Thomet APC9 submachine gun chambered for 9 × 19 mm caliber.
    https://www.popmech.ru/weapon/news-472592-ssha-vooruzhatsya-shveycarskim-pistoletom-pulemyotom/
  11. +1
    April 11 2019 17: 25
    Submachine gun "Kokoda"

    Hmm, the grip is directly on the barrel without the slightest sign of a casing to avoid burns (like the same great Sterling), not to mention the bending moment when gripping the handle, placed almost at the end of the barrel (long bend arm), during intense shooting. .. I'm not a gunsmith, and then the ill-conceived layout and ergonomics are obvious.
    From SW. hi
    PS
    The cycle is not bad, so Vyacheslav Olegich is our lasting respect. drinks
  12. 0
    April 15 2019 17: 58
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Yes, I'm not talking about the flange, I'm talking about you.

    I am always in order. Why such conclusions that I have no order?

    Buying for the Defense Ministry an old American cartridge of development of the 50s of the 20th century, or remaining in an even older Russian, developed in the 19th century, modern Russia is rapidly slipping into weapons archaic. I described the consequences of such a roll. This is against the backdrop of statements that the MO plans to make feature films.
    Instead of a single film, for the same money, they would develop a sleeve with a reduced flange for American bullets or for bullets of their own design. They made a new sniper cartridge for the army with a more modern sleeve with a reduced flange. Under it, it will be possible to design a more advanced bolt and self-loading sniper rifle. Army arsenals need to be updated with new and more advanced weapons, and not sit still.
    Pistol cartridges produced in small batches will begin to be produced with a reduced flange. With 9x18 mm, Russia is gradually leaving. New does not copy 1 in 1 in the West, we are not Papuans to just copy everything. And to do a little better - right away with a reduced liner flange. Weapon designers are realizing the advantages of such a sleeve in new models of pistols. Weapon upgrades are possible. And the understanding will come that the transition to more modern types of cartridges is beneficial. Because a weapon designed for such ammunition will have more advanced characteristics. The turn will come both to the machine gun and to other models of small arms. The army will become stronger not at the expense of women who are "giving birth to more", but thanks to more modern and effective weapons.

    A movie will always have time to make. This is not an army, where instead of modern weapons, inflatable chapels and movie theaters. Weapons in the first place. The cartridge of the 19th century against the background of the prayer and movie theaters leads to disturbing thoughts in the 21st century.



    To do this, we need to design new lines, but do we still have designers? Probably not..
    And the flange on the sleeve had to be abandoned back in the 80s ..