The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 19. After battle

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The epic of "Varyag" is nearing completion - all we have to do is to consider the decisions and actions of the Russian commanders after the battle, and ... I must say that the author of this series of articles honestly tried to summarize the facts known to him and build an internally consistent version of events. However, some data in the resulting description of the battle do not want to be “embedded” categorically, and that’s what we should list - even before we go on to describe the events after the 27 battle of January 1904.

first - this is the loss of the Japanese. An analysis of the currently existing documents shows that the Japanese in a battle with Varyag and Koreans did not suffer any casualties, the author himself adheres to this point of view. However, there is some evidence to the contrary.

So, a certain journalist McKenzie, author of the book From Tokyo to Tiflis: Uncensored letters from the war. London: Hurst an Blackett, 1905, who was personally present at Chemulpo during the 27 battle of January 1904, writes:

“This statement, like many other statements by the Japanese about the number of their dead and wounded, is questioned by some. I can name two facts - indirect evidence of this.

The first fact - Shortly after seven o'clock in the morning after the battle, I was walking along the main street of Chemulpo, when I met the doctor of the Japanese Diplomatic Mission in Seoul, going to the railway station. I knew him well, and when we went together, he told me that he had come to inspect the wounded. But officially, the Japanese did not suffer casualties while the Russians were cared for on foreign ships.

The second fact. A few weeks after the battle, my enthusiastic friend, who has close official ties with Japan, described to me cases of heroism of people during the war. “For example,” he said, I recently came to see the mother of one of our sailors, who was killed during the battle of Chemulpo. She dressed in the best outfit to accept me, and considered my condolences as congratulations on the happy event, as it was a triumph for her: her son had to die for the emperor at the beginning of the war.

"But," I said in amazement, "there must be some kind of mistake. After all, according to official data, no sailor was killed in that battle." “Ah,” my friend replied. "This is so. On the warships there were no dead, but some Russian shells hit the Japanese ships nearby in order to follow the Varyag movement. The sailor, whose mother I visited, was on board one of them, and was killed there. "


Frankly, all of the above utterly strange. You can somehow try to suggest that the Japanese invited the doctors even before the start of the battle, so to speak, “in reserve” and he didn’t actually examine any injured. But the explanations of a friend of a foreign journalist are more than unsatisfactory - no ships or boats from which the Japanese would watch Varyag and who could be at least theoretically hit by 27 January 1904 Russian shells did not exist in nature. Some Japanese boats could be on the Chemulpo road, but there the Varyag did not shoot.

Second. As we know, no Japanese destroyer “Varyag” drowned, and moreover, judging by the “Battle Report” of the commander of the destroyers Sakurai Kitimaru of the 14 squadron, all three 27 ships of this class participated in the 1904 battle in January. held on to the flagship cruiser "Naniwa" and did not even try to go into a torpedo attack. However, there are two inconsistencies that categorically do not fit into this version.

The first of these: according to the “Combat Report” to Kitimaru, during the 27 battle of January 1904, its destroyers followed “Naniwa”: “Tidori”, “Hayabusa”, “Manadzuru”, being at the stern exchange rates from the non-firing board "Naniwa" at a distance of 500-600 m, went a parallel course, waiting for the right moment to attack. " However, if we look at the diagram presented in “Description of military operations at sea in 37-38. Meiji (in 1904-1905), then we are surprised to find that the Japanese destroyers do not follow the Naniwa-Niitaka pair, but rather the Takachiho-Akashi pair. But then the question arises - what route did the Japanese destroyers actually go to?

And here is the second: if we take the diary of one of the eyewitnesses of those distant events: the midshipman of the American gunboat "Vicksburg" Leri R. Brooks, then we will read the following:

“When the Varyag began to retreat, one of the Japanese destroyers tried to attack it from the south-west, but was ousted by the Russian fire, not having time to approach.”


It should be noted that no friendly relations of this midshipman with Russian officers, which could encourage L. R. Brooks on a lie in nature did not exist. And it’s hard to imagine that a person in a personal, non-public diary would lie. Who is there to deceive himself?

The only thing that comes to mind is that some Japanese ships made a maneuver, which from afar could look like a miner attack. But, if so, then, perhaps, on the Varyag could they be considered the same? But maybe the attempt to go on the attack did indeed take place?

The fact is that if we assume that the authors of the schemes of the book “Description of military operations at sea in 37-38. Meiji (in 1904-1905) was nevertheless mistaken, and the commander who directly supervised the destroyers in battle was right, then it must be admitted that the prerequisites for a mine attack still formed when Varyag left 12.15 for Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi), while Naniwa, Niitaka approached this island from the other side. At this moment, three Japanese destroyers had the opportunity to give "full speed ahead", and, being "in the shadow" of Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi), suddenly at full speed jump out because of him and attack the Russian ships.


The route of the destroyers according to the scheme is highlighted in red, the route of the destroyers is shown in blue if they followed Nanivoy. The possible route of the destroyer attack is shown with a red dotted arrow.

In other words, in the circumstances, the attempt at a mine attack looks quite reasonable: at the same time both the Russians and the American midshipman observed such an attempt, but the Japanese categorically deny its presence.

And finally, the third. We carefully studied the maneuvering of the Varyag and the Koreans, and a little less detail about the movement of the Japanese ships, despite the fact that their courses after 12.15 were not described by us at all. Such an approach has the right to life, because on the whole, the maneuvering of Japanese cruisers looks quite rational - with the start of the battle, they moved towards the eastern channel, blocking the "Varyag" the most obvious route of breakthrough, and then, in general, acted according to circumstances, and went straight on the "Varyag" during his hitch at o.Phalmido (Yodolmi). Then "Varyag" retreated, again placing sharply between themselves and their pursuers, but for Fr. Yodolmi on the fairway leading to the Chemulpo raid, only the Asama followed the Russian ships. However, approaching the island, "Asama" produced a strange circulation, including the Japanese


The route of the “Assam” and its circulation are highlighted in red.

Obviously, for the pursuit of "Varyag" such a circulation is not needed, but Yashiro Rokuro does not give any reasons explaining it. Actually, a record approximately corresponding in time to this turn in the “Combat Report” of the commander of “Asama” reads:

“In 13.06 (12.31 in Russian time, hereafter we will indicate it in brackets)“ Varyag ”turned to the right, opened fire again, then changed course and began to retreat to the anchorage,“ Korean ”followed him. This moment I received a signal from the flagship “Chase!”, Changed the course and began to pursue the enemy. ”


“Asama” turned straight to “Varyag” and went to Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi) was at the latest in 12.41 (12.06) and moved directly to the enemy before the circulation itself. After the circulation was completed, he also followed the Russian ships. Thus, it turns out that the signal-order from the “Naniwa” could only be raised during the circulation of the “Assam”: they noticed on the flagship that the “Assam” was turning somewhere, somewhere not there, and ordered to resume the pursuit of the enemy. Consequently, this circulation is not at all the result of some order of Sotokichi Uriu. But then what caused her?

The author suggested that perhaps the commander of the Asama, seeing that the Russian ships approached the border of the territorial waters (and at about the time they were about there), considered it necessary to stop the pursuit. Recall that the battle began precisely when the Varyag approached the border of the water bridge, and the Japanese, opening fire, could assume that the Russian cruiser had already left them. And now, when they returned there, Yashiro Rokuro could find that pursuing them there was a move. However, this is a very dubious explanation, since in this case “Asama” should not have turned back, but ceased firing - nevertheless, there is no evidence that “Asama” stopped shooting during circulation. And, if “Asama” really ceased firing, then on “Naniwa” they would have raised an order to resume shooting, rather than “Harass”.

The second option is that the Russian ships "hid" behind the island during the approach of the Japanese cruiser and the "Assam", bypassing the island, found them too close to him, and therefore chose to break the distance, it also looks at least strange. Why did the Asame have to shy away from the Russian ships, and at the same time changing the shooting board during circulation? Somehow it does not look like the Japanese.

And finally, the third option - a malfunction of the control, or getting combat damage, as a result of which Asama was forced to break the distance. It looks the most logical, but, as we know, “Asama” during the battle had no damage and did not receive damage.

It must be said that such a point of view was also expressed (V. Kataev) that "Asama" made a circulation, passing the destroyer that approached the island to attack "Varyag". But, with all due respect to the distinguished author, such an explanation is no good. Armored cruisers do not lay circulations in order to give way to the destroyers, and despite the relative narrowness of the navigable canal in the region of Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi), "Asama" there could easily cross each other with the destroyer, even with "Mikasa" Kheikhatiro Togo without any circulations. And how can it be that the armored cruiser going on 15 nodes has a place to turn, and the destroyer does not have to go past him?

Thus, we can only say one thing: having done a lot of work with the documents and materials available to us about the Varyag and Koreans fighting with the superior forces of S. Uriu’s squadron, we still can’t dot the i's. One can only hope that sometime in the future some more “Top Secret Protocols to the“ Top Secret War at Sea ”” will emerge from the depths of the Japanese archives, which will give answers to the questions we are interested in. In general, as the character of one entertaining book said: “I envy my descendants - they will learn so much interesting things!”. Well, we will return to the Varyag - after either in 13.35 (13.00), or in 13.50 (13.15) the padded cruiser anchored on Chemulpo in the immediate vicinity of the British cruiser Talbot.

The French and English cruisers sent the boats with the doctors almost immediately, as soon as the Varyag anchored. In total, three doctors arrived: two Englishmen, including T. Austin from the Talbot and his colleague Keenie from the nearby British steamer Ajax, and E. Prizhan from the Pascal. The French cruiser commander V. Sanes arrived at the French boat (Sene?) Different sources give different transcriptions). The Americans also sent their doctor, but his help on the cruiser was not accepted. Generally speaking, the actions of the commander of the cannon "Vicksburg" and his relationship with VF Rudnevs deserve a separate material, but this is irrelevant to the topic of our cycle, therefore we will not describe it.

In order to understand the further actions of Vsevolod Fedorovich Rudnev, it should be borne in mind that the Varyag commander had to act under time pressure. We know that Sotokichi Uriu did not dare to fulfill his ultimatum and did not go to Chemulpo’s raid in 16.35 (16.00), as promised, but the commander of the Varyag, of course, could not know about it. What is equally important - when making a decision to evacuate the crew, one should have taken into account the decision of the foreign stationary commanders to leave before 16.35 (16.00), taken so that their ships would not suffer during a possible Japanese attack.

In other words, on everything about everything Vsevolod Fedorovich had less than three hours.

Shortly after Varyag anchored (after 20 or 35 minutes, depending on how long the anchorage time was right), V.F. Rudnev leaves the cruiser. Record in the ship's logbook reads:

"14.10 (13.35) The commander of the French boat went to the English cruiser Talbot where he stated that he intended to destroy the cruiser because of its complete unsuitability. He received consent to transport the crew to the English cruiser. ”


Negotiations did not take much time. The following entry in the magazine "Variag":

“In 14.25 (13.50) the commander returned to the cruiser where he informed the officers of his intention, the latter approved him. At the same time boats from French, English and Italian cruisers approached the cruiser. they began to put the wounded on the boats, and then the rest of the crew and officers. ”


It is not entirely clear when the first boats to evacuate the crew went to the Russian cruiser — it seems that they were sent to the Varyag before Vsevolod Fyodorovich announced his decision to evacuate the ship. Perhaps a semaphore was given from “Talbot” to “Pascal” and “Elba”? This is not known to the author of this article, but this is what we can say for sure - no delay was allowed. Nevertheless, and despite the fact that “Varyag” was anchored in the immediate vicinity of foreign stationary staff, the evacuation process was delayed.

Recall that the doctors started their work at 14.05 (13.30) - and, despite the fact that they provided only first aid, they finished it at 16.20 (15.45), and without examining all the wounded, only most received "more or less serious injuries." That is, in fact, just preparing the injured for transportation (and dragging them along the ladders and lifeboats even without first aid would be completely wrong), despite the fact that it was carried out with the help of foreign doctors who started work as soon as possible, dragged on almost until the end of the time of the ultimatum S. Uriu.

True, the Varyag logbook provides slightly different information:

“14.05 (15.30.) The whole crew left the cruiser. Senior and bilge mechanics with the owners of the compartments opened the valve and the Kingston and also left the cruiser. I had to stop at the sinking of the cruiser as a result of the request of foreign commanders not to blow up the vessel so as not to endanger their ships on a narrow roadstead, and also because the cruiser was sinking more and more. ”


However, the 15-minute difference in the memories of the British doctor T. Austin and the records of the cruiser’s logbook is quite easy to “reconcile” with each other - for example, V.F. Rudnev could have gone on the last cruise round, having ordered the last wounded to be taken away (by that time, obviously, who were on the upper deck of the Varyag) and not to see when the last boats with the crew had fallen off.

"16.25 (15.50) The commander with the senior boatswain, making sure once again that all people had left the cruiser, pushed him from the French boat, who was waiting for them at the ramp."


And that was all. In 18.45 (18 hours 10 minutes Russian time)

"The cruiser" Varyag "plunged into the water and fell completely on the port side."


As for the gunner "Koreyets", then it was so with her. Once in 14.25 (13.50) vf Rudnev announced his decision to destroy the cruiser, without making another attempt to break through, and midshipman Balk was sent to the Koreets. In 14.50 (14.15), he boarded the Korey and announced the decision to destroy the Varyag, and bring the team to foreign stationary.

A military council was held at 15.55 (15.20), at which it was decided to destroy the “Koreyets” due to the fact that in the roadstead a canlodka would have been shot by the enemy with distances unattainable for her guns. Apparently, someone suggested the option to leave for the island of So-Wolmi (Fr. Observatory) to try to fight from there: it was about a small island located not far from a fairly large island. Rose, between him and the exit of the raid. However, this idea could not be realized at low tide - depths did not allow.

In 16.40 (16.05), two explosions, which took place at intervals of 2-3 seconds, destroyed the gunner Korean.

What do we usually like to blame Vsevolod Fyodorovich in our actions and decisions after the battle? The first is the haste with which he made the decision to destroy the Varyag. Well, of course - only the ship was anchored, the officers had not yet completed the inspection of the cruiser, and Vsevolod Fyodorovich had already single-handedly decided everything and further put his decision into action.

But in fact, in V.F. Rudnev had more than enough time to assess the combat capability of the Varyag. For some reason, the critics of the commander of the cruiser Varyag believe that it is possible to proceed to the examination of his condition only after the ship anchors on Chemulpo raid, and this was absolutely not the case. As we know, vf Rudnev after 12.15 retreated for Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi) in order to assess the degree of damage to his ship, and, of course, received with some information about the problems. Then the Varyag retreated to the Chemulpo raid, and the fire on it was stopped at 12.40: after that nothing could interfere with the collection of information about the damage to the ship. As we know, vf Rudnev, went to the "Talbot" in 13.35, that is, from the time of the cease-fire by the Japanese and before leaving for the British cruiser, Vsevolod Fedorovich had almost an hour to figure out the state of "Varyag". During this time it was impossible, of course, to penetrate into all the nuances of the damage received, but, of course, it was possible to assess the condition of the ship and the degree of drop in combat capability.



As for Vsevolod Fyodorovich’s departure before the completion of the cruiser survey, it’s worth remembering the famous Pareto rule: “90% of the result is achieved 10% of effort, but the remaining 10% of the result has to be applied the remaining 90% of effort”. Inspection of the ship meets certain requirements and must be completely complete - at the same time, what was already known was enough to understand that it no longer makes sense to bring the ship back into battle - the ability to cause damage to the enemy was obviously exhausted.

The second thing that Vsevolod Fyodorovich is accused of today is that he just flooded the ship and did not blow it up. V.F. Rudnev gave the following explanation in the report to the Marine Department Manager:

"I had to stop at drowning, due to the assurance of foreign commanders not to blow up the vessel, so as not to endanger their ships in a narrow raid, and also because the cruiser was more and more immersed in water."


However, our revisionists found these reasons unsatisfactory: “Korean” was blown up, and nothing terrible happened, so no problems, in their opinion, with “Varyag” would have arisen. Maybe it, of course, is true, but there are a number of nuances that do not allow equating “Korean” and “Varyag” between themselves.

It is already difficult to determine the exact location of Russian ships relative to foreign ones, but by comparing the photographs of the explosion of the Korean from the Vicksburg.



and from "Pascal"



with a photo of "Varyag" on the anchorage,



We can quite reasonably assume that “Varyag” was much closer to foreign stationary students than “Koreyets”. It was impossible to put “Varyag” on arrival at the raid - it would have complicated the evacuation of the wounded and the crew, and, as we remember, foreigners were going to leave the raid before 16.35 (16.00). It should be remembered that the "Varyag" did not have its own boats, and he could not evacuate the crew on his own. Of course, the boats were on the Koreans, but, firstly, there were few of them, and secondly, with their help, it was necessary to evacuate the crew of a gunboat.

In other words, in order to blow up a cruiser, it was necessary after the evacuation of his crew to take him away from the parking lot of foreign ships, or to insist that they themselves move closer to 16.35 (16.00). But at the same time agree with the commanders, so that they sent the boats to evacuate the subversive party.

Today it is easy for us to argue - we know when the crew’s transportation to foreign stationary facilities actually ended, but Vsevolod Fedorovich couldn’t know for sure. The cruiser did not have special devices to load the wounded to the boats, which made their evacuation one more task. They were passed from hand to hand to the crew lined up in a chain, helping those who could move on their own go and descend, and it all worked out rather slowly. This was also because the transportation of the wounded was only to be followed after at least first aid was given to them, five doctors worked tirelessly, but things were still moving slowly.

Put yourself in the place of VF Rudneva. He is "on hand" badly damaged cruiser and many wounded. Own means of evacuation there, and proceed to the destruction of the "Varyag" must be no later than 16.35 (16.00). Of course, you should not blow up a cruiser in the immediate vicinity of the Talbot. But if the cruiser is taken away from the Talbot now - the evacuation will be delayed. If you first evacuate the wounded, and then try to lead the cruiser, then there may not be enough time, and the Japanese may appear on the raid - and on the cruiser only the party of "hunters", which should ensure its explosion. So you can give the Japanese ship at all. To ask the foreigners themselves to leave their parking places to 16.35 (16.00), reminding that this was exactly what they were going to do if Varyag did not enter the battle with S. Uriu's squadron? And if it’s still impossible to evacuate all the wounded before that time, then what? Blow up the cruiser with them?

It is today we know that the Japanese did not go on a raid after 16.35 (16.00), but in V.F. Rudnev was not the slightest reason to assume such. His decision to sink rather than blow up a cruiser is dictated by the need to cope before the deadline on the one hand, and the need to be as close as possible to foreign hospitals for timely evacuation - on the other.

It should be noted that the submersion of the cruiser, although it did not destroy it completely, was guaranteed not to allow it to be raised until the end of the war. That is, the Japanese obviously could not use it in the course of hostilities, and then ...

Do not forget that the "Varangian" was flooded in the raid of a neutral power. And on January 27, 1904, when the hostilities had just begun, it was by no means impossible to assume the crushing defeat that the Russian Empire would undergo in this war. But even in the event of a tie, nothing subsequently would prevent the Russians from raising the cruiser and reintroducing it into the Russian Imperial fleet... By the way, this should not have been done with the “Korean” - due to its small size, it would have been much easier to raise it than a cruiser of the 1st rank over 6 tons in weight, which was the “Varyag”.

Thus, an alternative emerged before Vsevolod Fedorovich Rudnev - he could, at risk for the wounded, crew members, and even with certain chances for the Japanese to seize the Varyag, to blow up the cruiser, or, avoiding the said risks, to submerge it. The choice was neither simple nor obvious. Vsevolod Fedorovich chose the flooding, and this solution had a number of advantages. As we know, it was not optimal, and VF would have been better. Rudnev blow up "Varyag" - but we argue from the position after the knowledge, which Vsevolod Fedorovich did not have and could not have. Based on the information available to VF Rudnev at the time of the decision, his choice in favor of flooding is fully justified, and there can be no talk of any "betrayals" or "gifts of" Varyag "Mikado".

Especially absurd in this regard is the view that the Japanese Order of the Rising Sun, II degree, which VF Rudnev was awarded after the war, was awarded to him because Vsevolod Fedorovich "presented" his cruiser to the Japanese. The fact is that in Japan itself at that time the Bushido code was still cultivated, from the point of view of which such a “gift” would be regarded as a black betrayal. Traitors, of course, can pay the agreed “30 of Srebrenics”, but now reward them with the Second Order of the Empire (the first was the Order of the Chrysanthemum, and the Order of Pavlonia was not a separate award at that time - the Order of the Rising Sun moved to third place) no one, of course, would not. After all, if they were awarded a traitor, then how did the other gentlemen of this order react to this? It would be a mortal insult for them, and they are taken very seriously in Japan.

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  1. +7
    14 November 2018 06: 10
    Dear Andrew,
    Congratulations on completing a great + cycle!
    I hope you will not abandon the topic of Russian-Japanese and will delight you with another series of articles, for example, about the battle in the Korea Strait.
    But officially, the Japanese did not suffer casualties while the Russians were cared for in foreign ships.

    The McKenzie journalist, apparently, was not aware that some of the wounded from the Varyag were admitted to the Red Cross hospital in Chemulpo. Perhaps the doctor of the Japanese Diplomatic Mission in Seoul was going to examine them.
    In the photo - a wounded Russian sailor against the background of Japanese sailors. The nurses are most likely Korean.
    1. 0
      14 November 2018 09: 33
      Quote: Comrade
      You will not abandon the topic of Russian-Japanese and will delight you with another series of articles, for example, about the battle in the Korean Strait

      Hello Valentine hi Unlikely No. - the battle is detailed in detail, there is practically no dark and ambiguous (except for the participation of "Takachiho", "sunk" by "Varyag"), Yessen's actions are quite logical and sound according to the current situation
      hi
      1. +2
        14 November 2018 13: 30
        Quote: Rurikovich
        the battle is quite detailed, there is practically no dark and ambiguous

        Hmmm .... yes? :)))
        1. +1
          14 November 2018 16: 26
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Hmmm .... yes? :)))

          Itch me! belay Really take it ?? wink
          My respect, dear Andrew drinks hi
          Article plus (as always, because emerging issues do not affect the perception of the material as a whole)
          1. +4
            14 November 2018 20: 29
            Quote: Rurikovich
            Itch me! belay Really take it ?? wink

            Someday - by all means and by all means :))) But it is unlikely now - the cycle will most likely turn out to be even longer than the Varangian one for one simple reason - a lot of it has been "sewn" into the history of the WOK since the beginning of the war and even long before it :)) ) In short, in order to deal with the battle in the Korea Strait, it is necessary to sort through the entire history of the WOC.
            Should I once already find a job, or not? :)))) For some reason, it seems to me that on the eve of the new year this issue will be somehow solved, and if I go to work, I will have to stop the cycle in the most interesting place. It will be wrong, but at the same time it’s a new job, and I’m unlikely to extend such a cycle :)))
            1. +3
              14 November 2018 21: 24
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Someday - without fail and necessarily

              Come on!!! belay

              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Should I once already find a job or not

              Personally, I am for a positive solution to the issue of work Yes
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              It will be wrong, but at the same time it’s also a new job, and I’m unlikely to extend such a cycle

              We are already finishing the battle at Chemulpo, we went through the battle at Port Arthur on January 27, 1904, there was a cycle on the battle in the Yellow Sea on July 28, 1904, the cycle "Myths of Tsushima" ... There was only one VOK left with its battle on August 1, 1904. ..
              It’s time for you to write a book on the topic of nuclear weapons at sea Yes wink
              Formally, the history of the VOK begins with the creation of the Rurik, as the lead ship of this series of ocean cruisers. Considering the general tendency of confusion and vacillation, characteristic of almost all fleets of the world at the beginning of the last decade of the 19th century, because technological progress developed much faster than the brains of admirals had time to order their dreams in metal, the Russians faced the same contradictions when they wanted to get what they wanted. All these throws are perfectly described by Melnikov in his "Rurik" was the first ". Therefore, the ship (and with it the other two) turned out to be very contradictory. Of course, to counter the English counterparts of that time (large cruisers of the" Blake "type, which appeared as answer to "Rurik" "Powerfuls") our ships were quite consistent in their capabilities, but, as I said, progress and thinking in accordance with this progress developed faster, therefore, the emerging "asamoids" ( laughing ) as some forum users like to call this type of protected cruiser, they were already smaller, faster, more secure and more powerful request ... And in the battle on 1.08.1904/XNUMX/XNUMX, squadrons faced with a predominance of cruising functions over squadron (VOK) and squadron over cruising (Japanese). But the Japanese could crush our cruisers to smithereens, be Kamimura more aggressive and use superiority in artillery and protection at shorter distances ... But history does not know the subjunctive mood, so we were to some extent lucky to be limited to the loss of one "Rurik "who died really a hero ...
              It would be interesting, of course, to see your author's point of view on this confrontation between the schools of shipbuilding and marine strategies for using ships at the time of the REV, but it is better to find a job for you.
              Regards, hi
              1. +2
                14 November 2018 21: 40
                Quote: Rurikovich
                But the Japanese could crush our cruisers to smithereens, be Kamimura more aggressive and use superiority in artillery and protection at shorter distances ... But history does not know the subjunctive mood, so we were to some extent lucky to be limited to the loss of one "Rurik "who died really a hero ...

                KP Jessen's words on this subject from his report
                During the entire battle, the Japanese maneuvered without any initiative of their own, and blindly imitated only the evolutions we were making; with a huge superiority of artillery and armor protection, while initially having an advantage in the course, it would be incomparably more profitable for them to keep us at some course angle in order to prevent us from developing the maximum force of our side fire or, in pursuit, shoot us with longitudinal shots from 8 dm. their guns. But even under the given conditions of this battle, I am quite sure that if there were the same cruiser as the Russia in the place of "Thunderbolt", both of them would have suffered the same fate as the "Rurik". On the contrary, if in this battle, instead of "Russia" another "Thunderbolt", the enemy would have been inflicted incomparably greater harm. Indeed, for combat with modern armored cruisers, only armored cruisers are by no means weaker than "Bayan" and "Thunderbolt"; "Russia and even more" Rurik "are already too weak ships, the same cruisers as" Bogatyr "," Askold "," Varyag "and the type of" Pallada ", which are completely unable to fight in line with Japanese armored cruisers, would be withdrawn out of order in the shortest possible time.
                In all likelihood, if only the cruisers "Russia" and "Gromoboi" met the enemy without "Rurik", if they had not completely avoided the battle, they would have escaped from such a powerful enemy with much less losses and damage.
      2. +1
        15 November 2018 03: 06
        My respect, Andrew!
        Quote: Rurikovich
        It is unlikely - the battle is in detail painted, there is practically no dark and ambiguous

        And you Monsund remember, like everything is also known, but your namesake made a solid cycle.
        By the way, it is widely believed that "Rurik" went to the bottom astern down,

        but in fact the cruiser was sinking on an even keel. So there can be surprises here as well, who knows what Andrei will "dig up"? wink
        1. 0
          15 November 2018 07: 02
          Valentine, do you remember that the events of the last battle of "Glory, and the entire sad ending of the Moonsund epic took place on a revolutionary wave, because on the contrary, there were enough black spots with incomprehensible actions in abundance Yes The winners write the story. wink hi
          Quote: Comrade
          who knows what Andrey will "dig up"

          Well, yes, he knows how. smile
    2. +1
      14 November 2018 13: 29
      Greetings, dear Valentine!
      Quote: Comrade
      Congratulations on completing a great + cycle!

      And I have not finished :)))))))
      Quote: Comrade
      The McKenzie journalist, apparently, was not aware that some of the wounded from the Varyag were admitted to the Red Cross hospital in Chemulpo

      Dear colleague, as I understand it (I’m definitely not sure), these injured persons arrived at this hospital later than on the morning of January 28, which McKenzie is talking about
      1. +3
        14 November 2018 14: 10
        Good day Andrey !!! Remembering your remarks, if I’m not mistaken from 2013, where you directly stated that you would justify Rudnev with all your might, I’m a little skeptical about your thoughts about this or that situation in the series of articles! The analysis is excellent, in which I do not agree with you, on the contrary, it’s completely for! You have done a great job and covered this episode that has been analyzed more than once from a new point of view. The conclusion itself will be more interesting, I hope you will give it in the final article of the cycle!
        Sincerely hi
        1. +2
          14 November 2018 16: 21
          Quote: Nehist
          Remembering your remarks, if I am not mistaken from 2013 of the year where you directly stated that you will justify Rudnev with all your strength

          Because he fully deserves it, which I knew about in 2013, and, as a matter of fact, before. And everything that I learned new on this topic did not convince me otherwise
          Quote: Nehist
          I’m a little skeptical about your thoughts on this or that situation in the series of articles!

          It is always welcome :)))) We have a free country :))) hi I presented the facts, how they were available to me and my considerations, but your point of view, of course, depends only on you :)
          Quote: Nehist
          The conclusion itself will be more interesting, I hope you will give it in the concluding article of the cycle!

          And where am I going, of course :)))
      2. +1
        15 November 2018 03: 42
        Hello, dear Andrey!
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And I have not finished :)

        This is great news, I must confess, when I saw your work late last night, it suddenly seemed that this was the last article in the cycle. Probably because my eyes were already sticking together, I did not pay attention to the signature "Продолжение следует ... ".
        Eh, I think, sometime now there will be an opportunity to talk on this topic ..

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        as far as I understand (I’m definitely not sure), these wounded were admitted to this hospital later than on the morning of January 28

        You are absolutely right, dear colleague, the Japanese gave the green light to February 12 in the afternoon, and my assumption is incorrect.
        When I realized this, I got into "Top Secret History of the Russo-Japanese War at Sea", appendix "Medical and Sanitary Issue" vol. 1, chapter 2, "Sea Battle at Inchon" (Chemulpo) There are 14 tables, a lot of text, the names and surnames of Japanese troops are listed. But there are no photographs of injuries or injuries, images of fragments extracted, the place and time of the shells and their calibers entering the ships, as well as diagrams, Unlike t. 1, dedicated to the battle of Port Arthur.
        Here, by the way, is a photograph from this volume. Wounded in a battle near Port Arthur, Japanese sailor, wounded and operation.

        Consequently, the doctor of the Japanese diplomatic mission in Seoul was not going to examine the Russians, but the Japanese. Apparently the very ones from the list.
  2. +6
    14 November 2018 07: 23
    Great cycle, thank you very much Andrew! Lately everyone has been trying to debunk everything, some of the Tsarist army’s exploits are different from the Soviet one, but for me it’s history and it’s not worth rewriting it, it’s worth disassembling and studying it and you have to do it, but you can’t rewrite it.
    1. +4
      14 November 2018 12: 28
      You're right: "revisionism" has become fashionable. Shirokorad does it very easily.
      My opinion: all the facts must be approached critically, not emotionally. On the example of "Varyag" and Rudnev's assessment: how many emotions were in Rudnev's assessment, and a critical analysis puts everything in place
  3. 0
    14 November 2018 08: 40
    "commander of the French cruiser V. Saines (Sené?)"
    The author is a plus, and the name of the future admiral, nevertheless, is the Seine.
    1. 0
      14 November 2018 13: 34
      Quote: kvs207
      surname of the future admiral, nevertheless - Seine

      Thank you!
  4. +4
    14 November 2018 10: 15
    . The Americans also sent their doctor, but his help on the cruiser was not accepted. Generally speaking, the actions of the commander of the Vicksburg gunboat and his relationship with V.F. Rudnevs deserve a separate material, but this has nothing to do with the topic of our cycle, therefore we will not describe this.


    In the report, the commander of the gunboat Vicksburg writes that the doctor did indeed return to the ship. But not because of the refusal to help VF Rudnev, but because of the lack of dressings and medicines, having received them, he again went to the cruiser Varyag and provided medical assistance there along with other doctors.
    The report of Pavlov A. I., it seems to me, very much distorted the real picture of what happened in Chemulpo, in addition, in the original version, he sank the Japanese cruiser Akashi.
    1. +1
      14 November 2018 12: 18
      Pavlov, when he talked about the sinking of the Akasi, he had to report: "I was watching, my friend from the Pascal, or I myself was sitting in a tree and saw everything."
  5. +1
    14 November 2018 12: 24
    A good article, put a plus (although I haven’t really liked the topics of a hundred years ago, but these are my problems winked ).
    I really like it when the author sets out the facts as they are, and draws conclusions from them, and does not fit the facts into their theories. I especially liked the visual comparison of the distance between the Varyag and other ships on the one hand and the photo of the explosion of the Koreyets on the other. The question "why the Varyag was not blown up" should obviously be closed now.
    hi
    1. +2
      14 November 2018 18: 54
      "The question" why the "Varyag" was not blown up, obviously, should be closed "for adequate people, and if a person has a lousy character: an eternal debater, then I'm not sure.
      1. +7
        14 November 2018 20: 33
        Quote: vladcub
        "The question" why the Varyag was not blown up, obviously, should be closed "for adequate people

        ... and now Jura 27 and the saxhorse will come up here and quickly explain to me the whole depth of my errors laughing
  6. +1
    14 November 2018 12: 33
    As always wonderful!
  7. +3
    14 November 2018 14: 52
    Really, dear colleague, are you already getting to the end? laughing
    Well and so - quite a sound and balanced assessment. In principle, one could come to her even with less knowledge of equipment, but for this it is necessary to have a good enough imagination to put oneself in Rudnev's place and cut off the facts of afterlife. And many analysts have problems with this. Especially in the very sofas, for which even superficial knowledge of the materiel is not necessary for judgment hi
    1. +3
      14 November 2018 16: 23
      Quote: arturpraetor
      Really, dear colleague, are you already getting to the end?

      I don’t believe it myself :)))))))
      Quote: arturpraetor
      Well and so - quite a sound and balanced assessment. In principle, one could come to her even with less knowledge of the materiel

      Can. But, as you well understand, there are few materiel :))) hi
      1. +2
        14 November 2018 16: 32
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Can. But, as you well understand, there are few materiel :)))

        That is yes. And then you can, without knowing a couple of important facts, but knowing everything else, imagine an erroneous picture that you have already come across more than once, and you had to change your views on these or those things wink But this is, if they say, running into a topic, which is far from always and not at all.
  8. +2
    14 November 2018 18: 09
    When Andrei began the cycle, I wanted to find out everything as soon as possible, and then I was fascinated by Andrei’s manner: to slowly and reasonably tell everything.
    I got used to expecting a new story about the Varyag in the "History" section, and now expect Andrei to indulge him with new stories about the history of the fleet.
    Andrey, sometimes it seems to me that you know EVERYTHING in the HISTORY OF THE FLEET.
    1. +2
      14 November 2018 20: 31
      Quote: vladcub
      Andrey, sometimes it seems to me that you know EVERYTHING in the HISTORY OF THE FLEET.

      You flatter me :) In fact, the more I delve into the topics, the greater my understanding of how much I still do not know :)))
  9. 0
    14 November 2018 20: 25
    "It should be noted that the sinking of the cruiser, although it did not completely destroy it, was guaranteed not to allow it to be raised until the end of the war. That is, the Japanese obviously could not have used it in the course of hostilities, and then ...

    It should not be forgotten that the Varyag was sunk in the roadstead of a neutral power. And on January 27, 1904, when the hostilities had just begun, it was in no way possible to imagine the crushing defeat that the Russian Empire would endure in this war. But even in the event of a draw result, nothing would subsequently prevent the Russians from raising the cruiser and reintroducing it into the Russian Imperial Navy ... "(C)
    -------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------

    A crazy thought came to mind, and suddenly Rudnev was counting on it. Those. the war will end quickly, the Japanese will be defeated, and the cruiser, after lifting and repair, will become part of the Russian fleet. In general, it all happened ... exactly the opposite. : (((

    Andrey, thanks and somehow I don’t want everything to end there. hi
    1. -6
      15 November 2018 00: 05
      Quote: Sea Cat
      A crazy thought came to mind, and suddenly Rudnev was counting on it. Those. the war will end quickly, the Japanese will be defeated, and the cruiser, after lifting and repair, will become part of the Russian fleet.

      The same crazy thought occurred to me that if not Rudnev, then his friend Commander Bailey had precisely expected that the Russian cruiser would already raise the Japanese flag in an hour or so.
  10. -2
    15 November 2018 00: 03
    But the explanations of the friend of the foreign journalist are more than unsatisfactory - there were no ships or boats from which the Japanese would watch the "Varyag" and which could even be theoretically hit by Russian shells on January 27, 1904.

    Theoretically there were two such ships. Aviso Tikhaya (Chihaya?) And the destroyer Kasasagi. It is believed that they did not take part in the battle at all, but how it really was in that mess is unclear.

    In general, the Japanese could get wounded during the landing operation. And the unloading of a heap of soldiers, guns and horses is a troublesome business. And Koreans treat the Japanese badly, there could be incidents in the seizure of office buildings.

    Armored cruisers do not lay circulations in order to give way to destroyers, and, despite the relative narrowness of the navigable canal in the area of ​​about. Pkhalmido (Yodolmi), Asama there could well miss each other even with a destroyer, at least with Mikasa

    I don’t think that Yashiro had an order to ruthlessly ram any Japanese destroyers that didn’t give way to him :) It’s a common mistake in navigation from the destroyer.

    A military council was held at 15.55 (15.20), at which it was decided to destroy the “Koreyets” due to the fact that in the roadstead a canlodka would have been shot by the enemy with distances unattainable for her guns. Apparently, someone suggested the option to leave for the island of So-Wolmi (Fr. Observatory) to try to fight from there: it was about a small island located not far from a fairly large island. Rose, between him and the exit of the raid. However, this idea could not be realized at low tide - depths did not allow.

    And why are you so sure that it was the ebb? For Polutov, for example, it is written in black and white that the last, third Japanese transport was delayed after the landing due to the morning TIDE. And so he left Chemulpo only at 10 o’clock. But if there was an ebb in the morning, that means there should be a tide in the afternoon, right?

    Although 15: 20 is in any case the time between the ebb and flow.

    It is today we know that the Japanese did not go on a raid after 16.35 (16.00), but in V.F. Rudnev was not the slightest reason to assume such. His decision to sink rather than blow up a cruiser is dictated by the need to cope before the deadline on the one hand, and the need to be as close as possible to foreign hospitals for timely evacuation - on the other.

    Moreover, in the end, Rudnev created the situation as favorable as possible for the capture of the abandoned cruiser by the Japanese. Let me remind you that the Varangian drowned very slowly, another three hours, and during this time not only a Japanese destroyer could come up, but simply from the shore the Japanese could pick up in a boat undoubtedly watching this epic. The fact that the Japanese did not capture the Varangian on the same day is pure coincidence. Cant or inconsistency of Japanese services.

    Put ourselves in the place of V.F. Rudnev. He has “on hand” a badly damaged cruiser and many wounded. There is no own means of evacuation, and the destruction of the Varyag must be started no later than 16.35 (16.00).

    And here there is a very interesting nuance. Under the act of the destruction of the Varangian, there is NO signature of the senior officer of the ship of the captain of the 2nd rank Stepanov. Midshipman signed, bilge signed, woe-navigator Behrens signed and there is no second person on the ship! Rudnev brought the order to destroy the cruiser to the senior officer separately, and at that time Stepanov was preparing the Varyag to continue the battle.

    It cannot but rejoice that even on the Varangian burning after the battle, there were officers who did not support Rudnev’s cowardly decision. Get on the spot V.F. Rudneva, his senior officer V.V. Stepanov, we would read a completely different story.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. 0
      15 November 2018 09: 49
      [/ quote] But if there was an ebb in the morning, that means there should be a tide in the afternoon, right?

      Although 15:20 is in any case the time between low tide and high tide. [Quote]

      On those days there were two ebbs and flows:
      - low water at 02-40 (time approximately),
      - big water at 9 in the morning,
      - low water at 15-00,
      - a lot of water at 21-00.
      Thus, the Yapovsky transport was waiting for the morning large water, and at 16-00 the tide had just begun (the water rose a meter and a quarter).
      I will support you about the failed shame of Rudnev: visit the Japanese Chemulpo at 16-30 (as promised, after 16-00), then nothing prevented them from climbing on the Varyag, closing the necessary kingstones, riveting the anchor chain and towing the cruiser to shallow place (just in case); then pump out water from one KO and start pumping water from the rest of the compartments. Well, the next morning, the proud "Varyag" in front of the heroes of the Varangians, under the proud Japanese flag, would go to Sasebo for minor repairs. And on January 27, the Japanese, still and the bodies of the Russian killed, stored on the Varyag, would solemnly be driven past foreign cruisers to the shore, for an honorable burial and Rudnev would be invited to the ceremony. I wonder - would he accept such an offer from the enemy? Or would he shoot himself?
      Well, the tsar’s father would solder to the hero-commander (upon returning to his homeland) a dozen imprisonment in the fortress for transferring the ship to the enemy. But, lucky enough, they did not fulfill their promise, they did not come to Chemulpo.
      1. -1
        15 November 2018 22: 17
        Quote: Jura 27
        On those days there were two ebbs and flows:
        - low water at 02-40 (time approximately),
        - big water at 9 in the morning,
        - low water at 15-00,
        - big water at 21-00

        Thanks for the tip, but do you have a source for this information? Unfortunately, I always come across extremely contradictory information about the tides these days. For example, on "tsushima", on the contrary, they give calculations in which the peak of the tide is indicated at 11:20 and the peak of low tide is at 17:20, which indicates the low tide in the period 5-7 am.
        1. 0
          16 November 2018 03: 08
          Quote: Saxahorse
          on "tsushima", on the contrary, they give calculations in which the peak of the tide is indicated at 11:20 and the peak of low tide is at 17:20

          According to old memory, here you are, my friend, the data on the ebbs and flows of Chemulpo on February 9, ebbs are highlighted in red and tides in blue. As you can see, the guys from Tsushima almost did not make a mistake.

          The information was obtained using the Incheon ebb and flow calculator located on one geographic site.
        2. 0
          16 November 2018 09: 11
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Quote: Jura 27
          On those days there were two ebbs and flows:
          - low water at 02-40 (time approximately),
          - big water at 9 in the morning,
          - low water at 15-00,
          - big water at 21-00

          Thanks for the tip, but do you have a source for this information? Unfortunately, I always come across extremely contradictory information about the tides these days. For example, on "tsushima", on the contrary, they give calculations in which the peak of the tide is indicated at 11:20 and the peak of low tide is at 17:20, which indicates the low tide in the period 5-7 am.

          The source is: http: //alternathistory.com/kakuyu-skorost-mog-razvit-varyag/. There, the specialist did the calculation, and it was for February 09, 1904, and not some 2018th.
          1. 0
            19 November 2018 23: 08
            Quote: Jura 27
            The source is: http: //alternathistory.com/kakuyu-skorost-mog-razvit-varyag/. There, the specialist did the calculation, and it was for February 09, 1904, and not some 2018th.

            Colleague, are you sure what a specialist is? By the way, the signature "ST .MATROS" also reminds me of something. Specifically, in the part of the tide, for example, an incomprehensible phase of the moon caught my eye, or I don't understand, or 50% could not have been. On the other hand, Polutov's phrase about the morning low tide also needs explanation. Polutov did not consider anything, he quoted documents and reports of Japanese commanders.

            I saw a simplified calculation on "tsushima", it looks like the truth. I'll quote right here:

            N. W. F & C. is an abbreviation for High Water Full and Change, translated as the port's applied hour for full water. And generally speaking, it means the approximate time of the onset of full water on the days of the full moon and new moon.
            Thus, in the area of ​​So Volmi, i.e. just at the raid we are considering, on the days of the full moon and new moon, full water arrives at 04.42. .. February 9th was the 8th day after the full moon. Every day, the time of full water shifts forward by 50 minutes, thus 8 days shift the tide time by 400 minutes, i.e. 6 hours 40 minutes. It turns out that on February 9, the peak of high water was approximately at 11.20.


            In general, it is quite simple and understandable.
            1. 0
              20 November 2018 16: 33
              [/ quote] Colleague, are you sure that it is a specialist? By the way, the signature "ST .MATROS" also reminds me of something. [quote]

              I'm sure enough to read the post. And "ST .MATROS" is the moderator who posted the post, at the request of the author (there were glitches on the site at that time).
              You can, of course, ask the author how he did the calculation in the light of the "Tsushima quotation."
              I also don't understand everything, so, for example, Bailey wrote that the tide height at the time of the Varyag's exit was 20 feet, which means that the low tide has already begun (the maximum tide height is more than 7 m) and the current speed was about 2 knots ; but on the other hand, nowhere is it mentioned that the "Varyag", after unanchoring, turned 180 degrees (what should be done if you are standing with your nose to the riverbed and the tide is low), but then it turns out that there was no passing current for the cruiser (its speed was close to zero); on the other hand, the Japanese wrote that the strong current made it difficult for them to maneuver.
              In my opinion, the author of the post on my link is closer to the truth, but, perhaps, the time of high / low water is somewhat different, an hour later, but not the same as calculated on Tsushima, otherwise there is a contradiction with the data of Bailey and the Japanese.
              1. 0
                20 November 2018 23: 56
                Dear colleague, perhaps I still argue a bit.

                I got the impression that the post was made by two, "ST .MATROS" and "LPGMASTER", and the moderator (?) Senior sailor also filled out some tables and provided some data. The link itself is not visible to me in its entirety, the "Navigation data" section is visible. And so there are questions to him about the moon. The indicated 50% could not have been February 9.02.1904, 9.02.1904. Google some lunar calendar for 23/8/14 in Sale or Incheon. This is the 44rd day of the month, i.e. indeed the 01th day after the full moon (on the 24th day) and there is 12% of the moon. It is important! Again, the indicated time of rising / setting of the moon 10: 6-40: 4 indicates a lunar noon somewhere at 42:6, but the applied hour of the port shown on the map is 40 hours 8 minutes. and this lunar interval must be added to 11:20. Those. both of these numbers, and the 20th day and lunar noon, independently point to 30:2.5 as the approximate time for peak tide. To indicate the exact time, here you need to use the correction tables of the applied hour, but the corrections cannot be so large. The error is plus / minus XNUMX-XNUMX minutes but not XNUMX hours.

                Actually, the applied hour of the port (N. W. F & C.) is for this point on the maps to quickly estimate the time of high and low tide.

                Quote: Jura 27
                this contradicts the data of Bailey and the Japanese.

                Well, here I want to clarify what kind of Japanese data are you talking about? The morning tide mentioned by Polutov is also the data of the Japanese. And the LPGMASTER 2:39 indicated by your link as a peak of low tide, well, you can’t name it in the morning.
                1. 0
                  22 November 2018 06: 42
                  [/ Quote]
                  Dear colleague, perhaps I still argue a bit. [quote]

                  Yes, you can and a lot, I'm only "for".
                  It is possible that the moderator Ivan ("ST .MATROS") filled out the tables according to the vehicle data, but the author ("LPGMASTER"), in theory, should have checked the filling, but he did not write about errors (perhaps he missed something).
                  How the calculation was performed for 08.02.1904/XNUMX/XNUMX, you can ask the author a question - "LPGMASTER" -y.
                  Low tide at 2-39, yes, you can’t name morning, I agree.
                  The Japanese wrote in their reports on the battle that the (strong) current made it difficult to maneuver during the battle, and the battle, according to Tsushima, began 25 minutes later. after the peak of the tide, i.e. the current could not pick up high speed yet. Bailey writes that the speed of the current during the exit of the Varyag was already approx. 2 knots.
                  1. 0
                    22 November 2018 22: 34
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    the battle, according to Tsushima, began 25 minutes later. after the peak of the tide, i.e. the current could not pick up high speed yet.

                    The calculation of Tsushima is still approximate, just because it is based on basic definitions, by 11:20 you need to add or subtract the amendment, it just could not be so big. It would be more correct to say that the tide there happened from about 10:50 a.m. to 11:50 a.m.

                    And the course there could very well be right after the peak of the tide. The fairway of Chemulpo is the mouth of the Hangang, a considerable Korean river. Most likely in this place there was no usual site of large water after the tide, a little inflow from the sea weakened as the Hangan began to push the water back. On the map, notice the average current marked at 3 knots, so 2 knots is one and a half times smaller than usual.
                    1. 0
                      23 November 2018 07: 46
                      Actually there is even more complicated hydrology ..
                      The influence of shallows, shallow depths, spills is not taken into account. In those days, the maximum ebb and flow was detected and the time by level (lot) at several points of the fairway, and then wind, rain, etc. were taken into account. already their experience of previous observations.
                      And now pilotage is obligatory there ... (Phalmido - Incheon).
                    2. 0
                      23 November 2018 16: 32
                      [/ quote] And the course there could very well be right after the peak of the tide. Fairway Chemulpo is the mouth of the Hangang, a considerable Korean river. [Quote]

                      In winter, the runoff is minimal and this river, only by Korean standards, is large, with its 2-3 meter depth.
                      In addition, if in the area of ​​the Varyag parking, the course of the river could still have some significance, then in the area of ​​maneuvering of the Japanese, the influence of the current was absent, due to the distance.
                      Those. from the mouth to the anchorage approx. 2 miles, which means that the flow of the river, after passing the peak of the tide, will reach forty minutes, by about 12-00 (Russian time). To the place of Japanese maneuvering is generally approx. 10 miles, i.e. the current will take more than three hours to influence the ships, and this is already, much after the arrival of the Varyag in the port.
                      Therefore, it turns out that at 12-30, the tide was already long ago, not less than an hour, and maybe more.
                      1. 0
                        23 November 2018 22: 47
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Therefore, it turns out that at 12-30, the tide was already long ago, no less than an hour, or maybe more.

                        "Not less than an hour or more" by the way fit quite well. The question is that the tide was during the day. And the captains of sailing ships were guided by the moon and lunar interval. For this, they began to indicate it on the maps :)
                      2. 0
                        24 November 2018 05: 30
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Therefore, it turns out that at 12-30, the tide was already long ago, no less than an hour, or maybe more.

                        "Not less than an hour or more" by the way fit quite well. The question is that the tide was during the day. And the captains of sailing ships were guided by the moon and lunar interval. For this, they began to indicate it on the maps :)

                        Nevertheless, the first tide was in the morning, and not in the afternoon, probably no later than 10 hours, and in the second evening.
                      3. 0
                        25 November 2018 19: 09
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Nevertheless, the first tide was in the morning, and not in the afternoon, probably no later than 10 hours, and in the second evening.

                        It does not fit. If you know LPGMASTER, try to ask him clarifying questions. I suspect a mistake in the source data.
                      4. 0
                        26 November 2018 15: 10
                        [/ quote] This does not fit. [quote]

                        Why not converge? That 11-20, that 10-00, is still morning, if we assume that the day began at 12-00.
                        I’ll try to write, but there the site has changed - I don’t even know if the message will reach.
    3. +2
      15 November 2018 14: 48
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Theoretically there were two such ships. Aviso Tikhaya (Chihaya?) And the destroyer Kasasagi.

      Then write there and the rest of the Japanese destroyers - why feel sorry for them? :)))) But they were far from the battlefield, the same advice note watched whether Russian ships from Arthur would come "to visit".
      Quote: Saxahorse
      In general, the Japanese could get wounded during the landing operation. And the unloading of a heap of soldiers, guns and horses is a troublesome business. And Koreans treat the Japanese badly, there could be incidents in the seizure of office buildings.

      The first assumption is that someone was injured in transit ... well, how to say? Perhaps he has the right to life, but the Japanese do not have anything like that in their reports, although this is an obvious force majeure. And the second is completely impossible, re-read Polutov again, everything was planned in advance, who, where, in which houses, houses had already been prepared for the reception of the Japanese, and the same Koreans were just not standing in line with "what you please".
      Quote: Saxahorse
      And why are you so sure that it was the ebb?

      maybe because
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Although 15: 20 is in any case the time between the ebb and flow.

      ? :))))) In fact, not only the process of "water leaving" is called ebb, but also the time of "low tide" until the tide begins
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Moreover, in the end, Rudnev created the situation as favorable as possible for the capture of the abandoned cruiser by the Japanese. Let me remind you that the Varangian drowned very slowly, another three hours, and during this time not only a Japanese destroyer could come up, but simply from the shore the Japanese could pick up in a boat undoubtedly watching this epic.

      And what would the Japanese do, who swam in a boat from the shore? :))))))) In your opinion, to stop the sinking of the cruiser, it's like - got up, turned a couple of valves, and that's it, right? :))))))) Eh , saxahors ... But if there was a trained rescue team with all the necessary "gear", it would be far from the fact that it would have been possible to save the cruiser, and there was no such team there. And it would have been - the ship is someone else's, the damage is unknown, etc.
      So the first thing. Let us, Saksahors, first teach you how to count. When did Rudnev leave the cruiser? At 15.50 Russian time. When did the cruiser sink? At 18.10. How long has elapsed between these two events? I get 2 hours and 20 minutes, but you? :))) That is, the cruiser, of course, sank for 3 hours, but the people from it "by the pike's command" did not disappear immediately after the opening of the Kingstones. The team completed the evacuation at 15.30, Rudnev with the boatswain - at 15.50.
      Second. Believe it or not, the Comet-type hydrofoils did not exist in nature then. But those ships that were there took a long time to approach the Varyag, not to mention the boats from the shore. And Rudnev, naturally, saw perfectly well, leaving the cruiser, that the Japanese were not doing anything like that, which means that in less than an hour they would not come up, and during this time the cruiser should have sunk.
      Third. It is extremely doubtful that the Japanese would venture to poke their attention to the Varyag in the roadstead, while there were foreign stationaries. The Japanese could not have known that the Varyag was being drowned until it became obvious (but then they would not have had time to save the cruiser), and before that, had there been a crew, he would have opened fire and a battle on the roadstead would have turned out nearby with foreigners, which the Japanese did not need at all.
      And finally, the fourth. We know that Rudnev asked Bailey to shoot the Varangian so that he would sink faster, but he abstained. Rudnev left the cruiser on a French boat, and if the Japanese had suddenly drawn themselves, he could have asked the commander of the French cruiser for the same thing, he would hardly have refused.
      In conclusion, I would like to note that Rudnev, having decided to flood the ship, could not have expected that he would sink for so long.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Get on the spot V.F. Rudneva, his senior officer V.V. Stepanov, we would read a completely different story.

      Yes, most likely, under the leadership of Stepanov, the cruiser would not have entered the battle at all. If Stepanov was afraid to sign a collective report "as if something might not work out," then ...
      1. +1
        15 November 2018 15: 47
        By the way, what did the Varyag kingstones look like? Have a drawing?

        And in general, if you open the kingstones, is it possible to close them back? Or let's just say whether it is possible to reach them in half an hour or an hour, when the holds should already be flooded.
        1. 0
          15 November 2018 16: 17
          Quote: Iwan
          By the way, what did the Varyag kingstones look like? Have a drawing?

          And in general, if you open the kingstones, is it possible to close them back? Or let's just say whether it is possible to reach them in half an hour or an hour, when the holds should already be flooded.

          It is generally accepted that kingstones can be opened and closed accordingly from the upper deck.
          1. 0
            15 November 2018 22: 48
            From the upper deck ??? And they will not hurt them in battle?

            The Military Encyclopedia of 1911 writes: “To the great. military man. to-fuck there is a trace. K .: purge, boiler rooms, for circulators. pump, bilge-fire and other pumps, flooding art. cellars, leveling banks and other small K. decomp. assigned. K-s not to be grouped in one place and b. according to the possibility of uniformly distributed on both sides. Drives of management K. are displayed higher top. platforms of cars. branches or even wl, and in the places of their exit are set to copper. slats with the name K., its diameter and the number of the frame where it is placed. Drives from K. the flooding of the ship are locked, the key to the k-rago is stored at the com».
        2. +1
          15 November 2018 17: 25
          Quote: Iwan
          And in general, if you open the kingstones, is it possible to close them back?

          Can. The fact is that separate compartments of the ship sometimes need to be temporarily flooded, that is, kingstones need to be opened first, then closed.
          That is why the standard procedure for sinking a ship by opening the kingstones implies the obligatory disabling of them - after that they can no longer be closed. And there is no reason to believe that the Varyag did something differently.
          1. +1
            16 November 2018 09: 07

            [quote] [/ quote] That is why the standard procedure for sinking a ship by opening the kingstones implies the obligatory disabling of them - after that they can no longer be closed. And there is no reason to believe that they did it differently on Varyag. [/ Quote] [quote] [/ quote]
            Something no one in his memoirs noted that the kingstones were disabled.
      2. -2
        15 November 2018 22: 38
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And the second is impossible completely, re-read Polutov again, everything was painted in advance, who, where, to which houses,

        Polutov writes about the homes of the Japanese community, as well as about its active participation. But about the Koreans at the front, they did not hear their attention. Do not forget that the Korean army and the police were there. Well, the Japanese also shot some saboteurs and partisans.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        ? :))))) In fact, not only the process of "water leaving" is called ebb, but also the time of "low tide" until the tide begins

        And you would have brought the data on both the height of the tide and the time of the tide on this day. Polutov has nothing about this, although he brought up a whole table of weather data. It can be understood, in the framework of the 15 minute battle, hydrology did not play a role. But if you try to consider other options for the battle, then the depth is the most important factor in the battle in shallow water.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And what would the Japanese do, sailing in a boat from the shore? :)))))))

        The Japanese who sailed in the boat could solemnly raise the Japanese flag, photograph it and send it to all the newspapers. The most powerful splash. Well, then you can take any Korean steamboat (and the English one also will not refuse for money) and just tow the Varangian in shallow water, which is around any number. And there already, knee-deep in the water at low tide, to close up and plug all that is needed.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Second. Believe it or not, the Comet-type hydrofoils did not exist in nature then.

        Well, Varyag himself, under the leadership of Rudnev, almost refuted this :) As far as I remember, at 12:25 he was still about. Phamildo stomped and at 12:50 already anchored in the raid. And the beautiful signal that attracted attention was the explosion of the Korean at 16:05. As you can see, time is enough.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Rudnev left the cruiser on a French boat, and if the Japanese had suddenly drawn themselves, he could ..

        And how do you imagine the French commander shooting towards a boat with a large Japanese flag? :))))) Asama, it was clearly visible from the raid ..

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yes, most likely, under the leadership of Stepanov, the cruiser would not have entered the battle at all. If Stepanov was afraid to sign a collective report "as if something might not work out," then ...

        Actually, it was the senior officer Stepanov who insisted on the breakthrough of the Varyag from Chemulpo, not even allowing the representatives of "alternative" views to speak. It is not surprising that the order to destroy the cruiser Rudnev brought to his first mate in the form of the most formal order. (it seems that he was afraid that he would not be arrested ..)
        1. +1
          16 November 2018 07: 40
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Polutov writes about the homes of the Japanese community, as well as about its active participation. But about the Koreans at the front, they did not hear their attention.

          Well, they didn’t hear, so re-read Polutov again - starting from the 187 page and beyond, including chapter No.5. You will learn a lot for yourself. And in short - Koreans did not resist. No way. Even the most formal resistance could already be considered a defense of its sovereignty, but there was nothing like that in Korea.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          And you would have brought the data on both the height of the tide and the time of the tide on this day.

          What for? Feed the troll? :)))) However, as I see, dear Comrade did it :)
          Quote: Saxahorse
          The Japanese who sailed in the boat could solemnly raise the Japanese flag, photograph it and send it to all the newspapers. Powerful Pooh

          The most powerful delirium. The Japanese landed on the "Guard". AND?
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Well, then you can take any Korean steamboat (and the English one also will not refuse for money) and just tow the Varangian in shallow water, which is around any number.

          And then, from scrap materials, "Varyag" is rebuilt in Yamato and Japan conquers the world. About the steamer - there alone breeding the vapors would have taken longer than the Varyag was drowning. If a cruiser entered the raid, it would still be possible to try, but the fact is that the cruiser did not have time to enter the raid with a reasonable time for the flooding of the Varyag. Another question is that the Varyag was drowning unreasonably long, yes, but who could have guessed this?
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Well, Varyag himself, under the leadership of Rudnev, almost refuted this :) As far as I remember in 12: 25 he is still about. Phamildo stomped and in 12: 50 already anchored in the raid

          Gods, and this person is still stuffing me with reviewers ... Well, what can I say? :))))))) Just quote G.A. Radzevsky:
          If you have a half-head hole, and you are not able to remember even the multiplication table, then hire a secretary half-time for her to write down everything for you. But only - terrible and without legs, so as not to be distracted from fulfilling the duties of military service, indulging in sexual dreams.

          The Varangian left Yodolmi in 12.15, and anchored in either 13.00 or 13.15, depending on which of the logbooks is right.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          And how do you imagine the French commander shooting towards a boat with a large Japanese flag? :)))))

          wassat fool Pascal could contribute to the flooding of the Varangian before the approach of Japanese boats / ships, they can be seen from afar :)))) This should even be understood by the saxacors.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Actually, it was the senior officer Stepanov who insisted on the breakthrough of the Varyag from Chemulpo, not even allowing the representatives of "alternative" views to speak.

          In order to understand what was happening there, just read Stepanov’s testimony.
          1. -2
            19 November 2018 23: 36
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            What for? Feed the troll? :)))) However, as I see, dear Comrade did it :)

            Really. What is the point of asking you. You also don’t seem to realize that the tide in 1904 could differ from the tide in 2018. :))

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The Varangian left Yodolmi in 12.15, and anchored in either 13.00 or 13.15, depending on which of the logbooks is right.

            12 time: 50 is indicated in the same Vicksburg midshipman’s diary, Lerry R. Brooks, what did you say about him?

            "It is difficult to imagine that a person in a personal diary not intended for the general public would lie." (c) Andrey from Chelyabinsk. :))

            Well, the time of 12: 25 is the Varangian poked into the island, according to Kataev. And you also did not refute it, even though you were asked to explain it.

            Total Varyag - 6.5 miles in 25 minutes, i.e. 15.5 knots against the current of 3-4 knots .. It seems like the truth. Knots until 18-19 Rudnev managed to disperse his cruiser, he would go into battle as he was fleeing the raid.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Pascal could contribute to the flooding of the Varangian until the approach of Japanese boats / ships, they can be seen from afar :))))

            You have devoted an entire article to understanding neutrality. The Frenchman could not shoot in the presence of the Japanese. It’s ridiculous to even discuss.

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In order to understand what was happening there, just read Stepanov’s testimony.

            It is enough to see the absence of Stepanov’s signature on the infamous piece of paper about the destruction of his cruiser. Yes, then it’s immediately clear who is who.
    4. 0
      15 November 2018 15: 56
      Yuri, you have some manic desire to denigrate Rudnev. Where is it from? What is its nature? How did it all start?

      It would be funny if it were not so sad. The Japanese fired at Rudnev and Varyag with shells for less than an hour, and our couch experts have been continuously shooting messages over the Internet for centuries through the years ...
      1. -1
        15 November 2018 16: 20
        Quote: Iwan
        Yuri, you have some manic desire to denigrate Rudnev. Where is it from? What is its nature? How did it all start?

        ..

        I cannot denigrate Rudnev more than he did it.
        1. +1
          15 November 2018 21: 10
          Good evening, dear opponent.
          Here you have a saber and horse, but on the line of fire ....
          In this segment, what claims to Rudnev could be? Is it necessary to remind that the crew of the upper deck is 45% beaten out, 112 people are killed and injured, as I recall, the wounded need help. They needed to be evacuated from the ship (not to leave overboard, but gently lowered in their arms.) In addition, I remind you that this is the first battle, people have not yet become accustomed to the sight of blood and pieces of bodies, and on the upper deck of the Varyag this was enough. After that, make an inspection and determine the damage to the main caliber. Disassemble, obtain serviceable parts in order to lead at least part of the artillery to battle. Patch up a hole, straighten the roll, and this is for a limited period of time remaining until
          the expiration of the ultimatum? Well, to lead a battered cruiser just to be shot, and people to a senseless slaughter? Already without a chance, not that a breakthrough, but even inflict at least some damage on the Japanese. Of course, people can endure a lot, but their forces are not unlimited.
          1. -3
            15 November 2018 22: 47
            Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
            In this segment, what claims to Rudnev could be? Is it necessary to remind that the crew of the upper deck is 45% beaten out, 112 people are killed and injured, as I recall, the wounded need help.

            Probably it is necessary to recall that exactly in the same period of time, another adult, experienced, senior officer, well acquainted with the situation on board, did not at all consider that his cruiser had exhausted all possibilities to resist the enemy. And Rudnev received his first accusation of neglect of duty from his officers.
          2. 0
            16 November 2018 09: 02
            Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
            Good evening, dear opponent.
            Here you have a saber and horse, but on the line of fire ....
            .

            And good day to you.
            I do not suggest "Varyag" to join the battle again, as they say - to drink Borjomi late, the liver has already fallen off.
            Rudnev had to make sure that the cruiser would not be guaranteed to the enemy, but the danger of this only reached him on board the Talbot and he asked to shoot the Varyag. This is my complaint against him for this episode. However, Rudnev's incompetence can be traced from the receipt of an ultimatum and the abandonment of the Varyag.
            1. +1
              16 November 2018 15: 17
              Good afternoon. You Yuri really want too much from the ordinary servants. By the will of Fate ascended to the crest of glory. Do you want Rudnev in that difficult situation, which was brought up by higher-minded minds from the attic of the Russian Empire, to act within the framework of the instructions and at the same time read the situation three to four steps forward? Even now, armed with cards and overlaid with documentation, they didn’t come to a common denominator — HOW MUCH Rudnev should have arrived in anticipation, during and after.
              Well, the fact that Rudnev has been twisted into memoirs must be left to his conscience.
              1. 0
                16 November 2018 16: 35
                Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                Good afternoon. You Yuri really want too much from the ordinary servants. By the will of Fate ascended to the crest of glory. Do you want Rudnev in that difficult situation, which was brought up by higher-minded minds from the attic of the Russian Empire, to act within the framework of the instructions and at the same time read the situation three to four steps forward? Even now, armed with cards and overlaid with documentation, they didn’t come to a common denominator — HOW MUCH Rudnev should have arrived in anticipation, during and after.
                Well, the fact that Rudnev has been twisted into memoirs must be left to his conscience.

                ICE!
                On the contrary, I would like a minimum: an elementary knowledge of battle tactics with superior enemy forces; monitoring compliance with the duties of their officers (at least in the main), knowledge of the device of their cruiser (again, within the necessary minimum).
                As for the fantasies in the memoirs, they nowhere lie as much as in hunting and war (c), i.e. here, just no complaints - a common thing.
              2. 0
                23 November 2018 07: 48
                Well, he lied in his memoirs to contemporaries and descendants, that is, to us ?!
                Well appreciated ...
      2. +1
        16 November 2018 12: 44
        Here the problem is not so much in Rudnev :)))
  11. +3
    15 November 2018 05: 04
    The commander of the French cruiser V. Senes (Senet?) Also arrived on a French boat. Different transcriptions are given in different sources).

    Dear Andrey, you have repeatedly written the name of the commander of the cruiser "Pascal" in two versions, one of them with a question mark.
    First name Victor-Baptistin Senes in Russian, it reads correctly only like this: Victor-Baptisten Senes.

    In 16.40 (16.05), two explosions, which took place at intervals of 2-3 seconds, destroyed the gunner Korean.

    From the cruiser "Pascal" was taken and this is the picture of the explosion on the "Koreyets".

    And now with a column of smoke.

    Below are a couple of shots illustrating the water level during tidal events.

  12. -1
    19 November 2018 06: 20
    The problem is that before Rudnev’s eyes there were no examples of the combat use of steam cruisers against a squadron ...
    Only flooding of the fleet in the Sevastopol Bay surfaced in my head!
    He was brought up on that .. And he did it himself - flooded, hoping to avoid punishment for mistakes.
    The pipe was not broken, the boiler could not be moved by the explosion of the shell, and attributed the shells ..
    I still wrote in the 18th part of a comment today who is interested in looking.
    There is no point in wasting time. Extra netti.
    Best regards