The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. Part of 4. Steam engines

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In the last article, we addressed issues related to the installation of Nicloss boilers on the Varyag - the main mass of Internet battles around the cruiser’s power plant are devoted to these units. But it is strange that, attaching so much importance to the boilers, the overwhelming majority of those interested in this topic completely overlook the cruiser steam engines. Meanwhile, a huge number of problems identified during the operation of "Varyag" is associated with them. But in order to understand all this, it is necessary first to refresh the memory of the ship’s steam engines at the end of the last century.

In fact, the principle of operation of the steam engine is very simple. There is a cylinder (on ships' machines usually located vertically), inside of which there is a piston that can move up and down. Suppose a piston is located at the top of a cylinder — then steam is pumped into the hole between it and the top cover of the cylinder. The steam expands, pushing the piston down and so it reaches the lowest point. After this, the process is repeated “exactly the opposite” - the upper opening is closed, and steam is now supplied to the lower opening. At the same time, a steam discharge opens on the other side of the cylinder, and while steam pushes the piston up and down, the exhaust steam in the upper part of the cylinder is displaced into the steam discharge (the movement of the exhaust steam is indicated by a dotted blue arrow in the diagram).



Thus, the steam engine provides reciprocating motion of the piston, and in order to convert it into rotation of the propeller shaft, a special device called a crank mechanism, in which the crankshaft plays an important role.

The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. Part of 4. Steam engines


Obviously, to ensure the operation of the steam engine, bearings are urgently needed, due to which the crank mechanism works (the transfer of motion from the piston to the crankshaft) and the fastening of the rotating crankshaft.

It should also be noted that by the time of the design and construction of the Varyag, the whole world in the construction of warships had long ago switched to triple-expansion steam engines. The idea of ​​such a machine arose because the steam that had worked in the cylinder (as shown in the upper diagram) did not lose its energy completely at all and could be reused. Therefore, they did this - first, fresh steam entered the high-pressure cylinder (CVP), but after doing its work it was not “thrown out” back into the boilers, but entered the next cylinder (medium pressure, or CCD) and again pushed the piston inside it. Of course, the pressure of steam entering the second cylinder decreased, which is why the cylinder itself had to be made of a larger diameter than the HPC. But even that was not all - the steam that had worked its way in the second cylinder (CSD) entered the third cylinder, called the low pressure cylinder (LPD), and continued its work already in it.



It goes without saying that the low pressure cylinder should have a maximum diameter in comparison with the other cylinders. The designers did it easier: the low pressure cylinder was too big, so instead of one low pressure shaft, they made two and the cars became four cylinder ones. At the same time, the steam was still supplied simultaneously to both low pressure cylinders, that is, despite the presence of four “expansion” cylinders, three remained.

This short description is enough to understand what was wrong with the steam engines of the cruiser Varyag. And “not so” with them, alas, there was so much of everything that the author of this article finds it difficult to begin with exactly what. Below we describe the main miscalculations made when designing the cruiser steam engines, and try to figure out who, after all, was to blame for them.

So, the problem number XXUMX was that the design of the steam engine, obviously, does not tolerate bending stresses. In other words, good work could be expected only when the steam engine stands on an absolutely level foundation. If this base suddenly begins to bend, then this creates an additional load on the crankshaft, which passes almost the entire length of the steam engine - it begins to bend, the bearings holding it quickly become unusable, there are backlashes and the crankshaft gets displaced, which is why the crank bearings suffer - crank mechanism and even pistons of the cylinder. In order to prevent this from happening, the steam engine must be installed on a solid foundation, but this was not done at Varyag. His steam engines had only a very light foundation and in fact fastened directly to the ship’s hull. And the body, as is well known, “breathes” on the sea wave, that is, it bends during the roll, and these constant bends led to the curvature of the crankshafts and the “rattling” of the bearings of the steam engines.

Who is to blame for this structural defect of “Varyag”? Without a doubt, the responsibility for this ship deficiency should be laid on the engineers of the firm of C. Crump, but ... there are certain nuances.

The fact is that such a design of steam engines (when those without a rigid foundation were installed on the ship hull) was generally accepted - rigid “Askold” and “Bogatyr” did not have rigid foundations, but the steam engines worked flawlessly on them. Why?

Obviously, the deformation of the crankshaft will be the more significant, the greater its length, that is, the greater will be the length of the steam engine itself. There were two steam engines on the Varyag, but the Askold had three. By design, the latter were also triple-expansion four-cylinder steam engines, but at the expense of significantly less power they had a significantly smaller length. Due to this, the impact of the hull deflection on the “Askold” machines turned out to be much weaker - yes, they were, but, let's say, “within reason” and did not lead to deformations that put the steam engines out of operation.

And indeed - initially it was assumed that the total power of the Varyag machines should have been 18 000 hp, respectively, the power of one machine - 9 000 hp But then Charles Crump made a very difficult to explain mistake, namely, he increased the power of steam engines to 20 000 hp. The sources usually explain this by the fact that Charles Crump did it because of the refusal of the MTC to use the forced blast during the cruiser tests. It would be logical if C. Crump simultaneously increased the performance of the boilers in the Varyag project to the same 20 000 hp simultaneously with an increase in the power of the machines, but nothing like that happened. The only reason for such an action could be the hope that the cruisers' boilers would exceed the capacity set by the project, but how could this be done without forcing them?

Here, one of two things already - or Charles Crump still hoped to insist on conducting tests when forcing the boilers and feared that the machines would not “stretch” their increased power, or for some unclear reason he believed that the Varyag boilers and without force reached the power 20 000 hp In any case, the calculations of Charles Krump turned out to be erroneous, but this led to the fact that each cruiser machine had a power of 10 000 hp. In addition to the natural growth of mass, the dimensions of steam engines (length reached 13 m) increased, of course, while three Askold cars, which were supposed to show 19 000 hp. nominal power, should have been just for 6 333 hp each (alas, their length is unfortunately unknown to the author).

But what about "Bogatyr"? After all, he was, like the Varyag, a two-shaft, and each of his cars had almost the same power - 9 750 hp against 10 000 hp, and therefore had similar geometric dimensions. But it should be noted that the housing of the Bogatyr was somewhat wider than that of the Varyag, it had a slightly smaller length / width ratio and in general seemed to be more rigid and less prone to deflection than the housing of the Varyag. In addition, it is possible that the Germans strengthened the foundation with respect to the one on which the Varyag steam engines were stationed, that is, if it was not similar to those of more modern ships, it still provided better strength than the Varyag foundations. However, this question can be answered only after a detailed study of the drawings of both cruisers.

Thus, the fault of the Kramp engineers was not that they had set a weak foundation for the Varyag cars (the rest of the shipbuilders, it seems, did the same), but that they did not see and did not realize the need to ensure “inflexibility "Machines more robust housing or the transition to a three-screw scheme. The fact that a similar problem was successfully solved in Germany, and not only the extremely experienced Vulcan, which built the Bogatyr, but also second-rate and not having experience building large warships according to its own project, Germany, is not in favor of American constructors. However, in fairness it should be noted that the MTC did not control the moment, however, it should be understood that no one before him set the task to monitor every sneeze of Americans, and that was not possible.

But alas, this is only the first and, perhaps, not even the most significant lack of steam engines of the newest Russian cruiser.

Problem # 2, which was apparently the main one, was the flawed design of the Varyag steam engines, which were optimized for the ship’s high speed. In other words, the machines worked well with vapor pressure close to the maximum, otherwise problems started. The fact is that when the vapor pressure dropped below 15,4 atmospheres, the low pressure cylinders ceased to perform their function - the energy of the steam entering them was not enough to drive the piston in the cylinder. Accordingly, on economic moves, a “cart began to drive a horse” —the low-pressure cylinders, instead of helping to rotate the crankshaft, were driven by them themselves. That is, the crankshaft received energy from high and medium pressure cylinders, and spent it not only on the rotation of the screw, but also on ensuring the movement of the pistons in the two low pressure cylinders. It should be understood that the design of the crank mechanism was designed to ensure that it is the cylinder that will set the crankshaft in motion through a piston and a slider, but not vice versa: as a result of such an unexpected and nontrivial use of the crankshaft, he experienced additional stresses not provided by his design, which also led to the failure of the bearings holding it.

In fact, there might not have been a particular problem, but only under one condition - if the design of the machines provided for a mechanism that detaches the crankshaft from the low-pressure cylinders. Then, in all cases of operation with steam pressure below the set, it was enough to “press a button” - and the low-pressure cylinder stopped loading the crankshaft, however such mechanisms were not provided for by the design of the Varyag machines.

Subsequently, engineer I.I. Gippius, who led the assembly and adjustment of the destroyer mechanisms in Port Arthur, carried out a detailed survey of the Varyag cars in 1903 and wrote an entire research paper based on its results, indicated the following:

“Here, a self-suggestion suggests itself that the Crump plant, in a hurry to hand over the cruiser, did not have time to verify the steam distribution; The car quickly got upset, and on the ship, naturally, they began to fix the parts that suffered more than others in the sense of heating, knocking, without eliminating the root cause. In general, straightening the vehicle, originally released from the factory with ship's means, is undoubtedly an extremely difficult, if not impossible, task. ”


Obviously, C. Crump is entirely to blame for this lack of the Varyag power plant.

Problem # 3 itself was not particularly serious, but in combination with the above errors, it gave a “cumulative effect”. The fact is that for some time when designing steam engines, the designers did not take into account the inertia of their mechanisms, as a result of which the latter were constantly subjected to excessive stress. However, by the time Varyag was created, the theory of balancing the forces of inertia of machines was studied and spread everywhere. Of course, its use required additional calculations from the manufacturer of the steam engine and created certain difficulties for him, which means that the work in general was more expensive. So, MTK in its requirements, unfortunately, did not indicate the mandatory use of this theory in the design of steam engines, and Charles Crump, apparently, decided to save on this (it’s hard to imagine that he himself, and none of his engineers, had anything about theories did not know). In general, whether under the influence of thirst for profit, or because of the banal incompetence, but the provisions of this theory when creating machines "Varyag" (and, by the way, "Retvisan") were ignored, resulting in inertial forces provided "very unfavorable" (according to I.I. Gippius) effect on medium and low pressure cylinders, contributing to the disruption of the normal operation of machines. Under normal conditions (if the steam engine had been provided with a reliable base and there were no problems with steam distribution) this would not lead to breakdowns, and so ...

The blame for this lack of Varyag steam engines should probably be placed on both Charles C. Krump and MTC, which allowed an unspecified wording of the order.

Problem # 4 was to use a very specific material in the manufacture of bearings for steam engines. For this purpose, phosphorous and manganese bronze were used, which, as far as the author knows, were not widely used in shipbuilding. As a result, the following happened: due to the reasons stated above, the bearings of the Varyag machines quickly failed. They had to be repaired or changed for what was available at hand in Port Arthur, and there, alas, there were no such delights. As a result, the situation arose when the steam engine worked with bearings made of materials of completely different qualities — premature wear of some caused additional stresses in others and all this also contributed to the disruption of the normal operation of the machines.

Strictly speaking, this is probably the only problem whose “authorship” cannot be established. The fact that the suppliers of Charles Crump chose such material could not have caused any negative reaction from anyone - here they were completely in their own right. Assuming the catastrophic state of the Varyag power plant, foreseeing its causes and providing Port Arthur with the necessary materials was clearly beyond human capabilities, and it was hardly possible to supply the necessary bronze grades “just in case” given the huge amount of any materials for the squadron the necessity of which was known precisely, but the needs for which could not be met. Blame the mechanical engineers who carried out the repair of machines "Varyag"? It is unlikely that they had the necessary documentation that would allow them to foresee the consequences of the repairs they are doing, and even if they knew about it, what could they change? They had no other options anyway.

Summing up our analysis of the power plant of the Varyag cruiser, we have to admit that the shortcomings and constructive errors of steam engines and boilers complemented each other superbly. It seems that the boilers of Nikloss and the steam engines made a pest against the cruiser on which they were installed. The danger of boiler accidents forced the crew to establish a reduced vapor pressure (not more than 14 atmospheres), but this created the conditions under which the Varyag steam engines had to quickly become unusable, and ship mechanics could not do anything about it. However, in more detail the consequences of the constructive solutions of the machines and boilers of the Varyag we will consider later when we analyze the results of their operation. Then we will give a final assessment of the cruiser power plant.

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94 comments
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  1. Cat
    +10
    24 June 2018 05: 32
    Andrew, thank you!
    For a person who is far from iron and has seen a steam turbine only in the picture in the physics textbook for grade 7, the information is simply priceless !!! A series of articles about Varya Mnogb is already perceived as educational program on the ships of the beginning of the last century.
    Sincerely, Vlad Kotische!
    1. +3
      24 June 2018 20: 24
      You're welcome! drinks Today, the criticism is so plentiful that I do not have time to answer :))
      1. +4
        25 June 2018 17: 53
        Oh, how interesting, the right word. The speed of progress in the field of steam engines of those times was certainly amazing. It’s rare where you can find out such details without digging into special literature, thank you very much!
  2. +5
    24 June 2018 08: 34
    Oops .... "it was smooth on paper, but forgot about the ravines" ....
    I didn’t pay much attention to the Varyag cars, but perhaps at the end of the cycle my opinion will change regarding the reasons for the impossibility of a breakthrough .... Perhaps ...
    Article plus. Undoubtedly !!! hi
  3. +6
    24 June 2018 09: 10
    The author, thank you, for a sufficiently qualified analysis of the problem. Thus, the steam engine provides reciprocating motion of the piston, but in order to convert it into rotation of the screw shaft, a special device called a crank mechanism is used, in which the crankshaft plays an important role shaft.
    And here, the lubrication of bearings and the oils used play an important role. At that time, rape oil was used to lubricate steam engines, then rapeseed oil now, this is the name, vegetable oil: "In the old days, raw rapeseed oil, which had a pronounced mustard taste and was therefore unsuitable for food, was used for lighting, and then, with the spread of steam machines, it was widely used as a lubricant, because it adhered well to metal parts and was not washed off with water and steam. And castor oil: “Castor has several advantages as a lubricating oil compared to a mine oils-trivial: a wide range of operating temperatures (Tzamerzaniya = -16, Tvspyshki = 275 ° C), insoluble in petroleum products, non-toxicity, non-aggressive to most plastics. The main disadvantages limiting the use of this substance as a lubricant are its fast oxidizability and low thermal conductivity. "
    Here, too, the problems of the lubrication system of machines were hidden. The theory of an oil wedge has not been worked out: "When determining the design of the bearing and the corresponding operating mode, friction with lubricant can be carried out. The operation of the bearing under these conditions obeys the hydrodynamic theory of lubrication." The use of mineral oils and a number of problems. http://lektsii.com/1-104635.html
    1. +4
      24 June 2018 13: 51
      Still harder. The fact is that the “oil wedge” in modern ICEs and turbines is provided due to several factors. The first is oil pressure i.e. pump. The second is the design of the bearing i.e. shape, material, gaps, lubrication channels, etc. The third is the consistency of lubricating oil i.e. brand of oil, viscosity, temperature, presence of mechanical impurities, etc.
      So, in steam engines, the first and third factors were usually not taken into account. What was left?
      Only structurally provide this same "wedge", about which no one then really knew anything. Therefore, the slightest error in the calculations of hardness, for example, bronze or clearance in the bearings led to negative results.
      1. +2
        24 June 2018 21: 28
        Alexei, as I understood from the comment of Amurts or yours, the case was three times more complicated + all the other "joys". It is also surprising that the "Varyag" sailed and pretty much and joined the battle with the whole squadron
        1. +1
          24 June 2018 21: 44
          Quote: Royalist
          It is also surprising that the "Varangian" swam and quite a lot
          And even more was in repairs
          Well, imagine, if everything was like Askold - okay? Would be left at the squadron in Port Arthur. And in Chemulpo would be stuffed Diana or Pallas ..... Or Zabiyaku laughing
          1. +2
            25 June 2018 07: 31
            And in Chemulpo would be stuffed Diana or Pallas ..... Or Zabiyaku

            And rightly so! Yes
  4. +6
    24 June 2018 09: 18
    Finally! Very interesting. In principle, it was known about problems with cars, but in such detail ...
    + + + +
  5. +4
    24 June 2018 10: 01
    Andrey, as always, is simple, professional and intelligible. Thank you so much!
    Regards for the work done hi Alex
    1. +1
      24 June 2018 18: 41
      Andrey, as always, is simple, professional and intelligible. Thank you so much!

      PPKS!
  6. +3
    24 June 2018 11: 19
    Let's hope that Andrei has a CMU mounting scheme. On the foundation or on the stringers, I could not find information that the CMU was attached to the stringers :(
    1. +1
      24 June 2018 14: 22

      Victor Kataev "Cruiser Varyag", the legend of the Russian fleet. Page 45-47.
  7. +13
    24 June 2018 12: 58
    With all due respect to the author and his really interesting materials, I think that he has invaded an area in which dilettantism is already inappropriate.

    Model of the main steam engine of the cruiser Varyag. CVMM..
    Let's start with the first problem. All discussions about the insufficient strength of the foundation, leading to the appearance of additional bending moments on the crankshaft.
    Such statements are confirmed by calculations and illustrated by diagrams. The author does not cite either his own calculations, or references to calculations carried out by specialists. Without this, there is talk about nothing, as well as discussions about the insufficient strength of the foundations.
    In each foundation, three main elements can be distinguished: longitudinal composite beams that serve as supports for the foundation frames or paws of the mechanism installed on the foundation; cross dressings; reinforcing vertical ribs or knits.
    If the foundation is located on a double bottom floor, then additional bottom stringers are installed in the plane of the foundation beams, which are brought to the nearest transverse bulkheads.
    If the ship’s machine is installed directly on the double bottom flooring, then the longitudinal beams of the foundation are installed in the bottom set, and the horizontal supporting surfaces are welded into the double bottom flooring.
    However, there is not a word in the article on the construction of ship foundations and calculations of their strength. On the basis of what do we judge their insufficient strength?
    Problem number three is also purely speculative in nature. Who saw the methodology for calculating Varyag machines and then, are the inertial forces on the hull structures taken into account there or not?
    "Problem number 4 was the use of very specific material in the manufacture of bearings for steam engines. For this purpose, phosphorous and manganese bronzes were used, which, as far as the author knows, were not used to some extent widely in shipbuilding."
    We open page 115 of the fifth volume of Sytin’s military encyclopedia, published in 1911 - 1915. She has the article "Bronze in Shipbuilding". Read.
    "Phosphorous B. The composition of the alloy corresponds to cannon metal, that is, tin, but mixed with an unobtrusive fraction of phosphorus. Tearing resistance is 17-22 tons per square dm. The metal is characterized by a high elastic limit close to its tensile strength. It is well rolled and is used for the manufacture of bearings, friction parts, plate valves, worm wheels, as well as flange screws.Manganese B. aka B. Parson and Ston, represents zinc B. improved with an admixture of ferromanganese. tons in the square dm. Manganese B. are distinguished by high krepos yu, well forged, drawn, rolls. They are used in the same place and phosphorous B. "
    Thus, under the author’s conclusions, in addition to the thoughts of a non-specialist, there are simply no “ship foundations”. Meanwhile, the conclusions are far-reaching.
    By the way, after raising the Varyag cruiser, the Japanese named it Soya, carried out high-quality repairs without replacing boilers, machines and foundations, and the cruiser issued an 22,7 unit and was successfully operated by the Japanese.
    1. +5
      24 June 2018 12: 59

      Highly recommend for exploring the subject.
      Sincerely.
      1. +2
        24 June 2018 15: 30
        Good day Victor! So how was CMU installed on Varyag? I’ve been advised to re-read Kataev above ... I just haven’t found any information besides him that the CMU was attached to stringers. Everywhere it was indicated that the foundation ... If it does not, then it is possible in PM.
        Best regards!
        1. +2
          24 June 2018 18: 06
          I gave examples of options. And how the Varyag steam engine was installed, we don’t know. But we know "what is bad and on a weak foundation," as the author claims. But in order to determine this "bad", you need to know how it looks.
      2. +3
        24 June 2018 16: 47
        Quote: Curious
        Highly recommend for exploring the subject.

        No offense be said, but I strongly recommend that you familiarize yourself with the subject at least with the "Cruiser Varyag" Melnikov

        Quote: Curious
        However, there is not a word in the article on the construction of ship foundations and calculations of their strength. On the basis of what do we judge their insufficient strength?

        Well, Melnikov, who claimed that
        "
        Steam engines with cylinders did not have a single rigid hull and on Varyag were two enfilades stretching for 13 m along the length of the ship, consisting of eight columns with four vertical cylinders up to 8 m high. Lightweight machine foundation mounted on an equally light case, could hardly provide the necessary rigidity "

        not a specialist for you. But do I understand correctly that the engineer Grippius, who arrived in Port Arthur specifically for the assembly of destroyer vehicles, is also, in your eyes, an amateur and not an expert? And the fact that while examining Varyag’s cars, he came to the conclusion, I quote: “In connection with the general distortion of the machine” - is this about nothing?
        Quote: Curious
        Problem number three is also purely speculative in nature. Who saw the methodology for calculating Varyag machines and then, are the inertial forces on the hull structures taken into account there or not?

        In fact, the engineer Grippius, who did this analysis, writes about this.
        Quote: Curious
        We open page 115 of the fifth volume of Sytin’s military encyclopedia, published in 1911 - 1915. She has the article "Bronze in Shipbuilding". Read.

        Or maybe for a start we’ll read the article? After all, Russian says in white that the problem was not that Crump used such a specific material, but that our engineers didn’t have such material to repair and replace bearingsAs a result, on the ship in the same machine bearings of different materials with different qualities were used, some failed faster, the load on the others increased, which led to the problem.
        In general, an urgent request - before copying something, you still pay attention to what the author wanted to say :)))
        Quote: Curious
        By the way, after raising the Varyag cruiser, the Japanese named it Soya, carried out high-quality repairs without replacing boilers, machines and foundations, and the cruiser issued an 22,7 unit and was successfully operated by the Japanese.

        Yeah. Do you know why?
        Here is Grippius' recommendation for Varyag machines
        “It was possible to rectify the matter only by a complete overhaul of all moving machine parts, starting from the alignment of the crankshaft, and the new pouring of bearing shells with homogeneous antifriction metal to the sequential fitting of the part after the part in the order of the usual factory assembly
        (by the way, as I understand it, this also includes the regulation of steam distribution, as Grippius mentioned earlier).
        That is, Varyag’s cars did not need to be changed. They had to be completely disassembled, repaired, straightened, adjusted, reassembled and adjusted - only it had to be done at the FACTORY, the crew could not crank up such repairs. The Japanese did it - and got their 22,7 bonds
        On testing :))))
        But what speed could the Varangian develop after not too long exploitation in the Japanese fleet - to remind? :))))
        1. +2
          24 June 2018 17: 21
          Andrey, I'm sorry, but you are clearly not a techie.
          Steam distribution adjustment is the adjustment of the valves that supply steam to the cylinders.
          1. +3
            24 June 2018 17: 32
            Quote: Avior
            Steam distribution adjustment is the adjustment of the valves that supply steam to the cylinders.

            And the valves, if my sclerosis is not lying to me, are part of the steam engine. Although maybe I'm wrong - I'm not a techie laughing
            The point of my remark is that Grippius noted a poor distribution separately, which is why low-pressure cylinders at low vapor pressure did not fulfill their function. So, as I think, the Japanese, with the capital of the Varyag, eliminated this drawback :)))
        2. +4
          24 June 2018 18: 58
          "No offense be said, but I strongly recommend that you familiarize yourself with the subject at least with the cruiser Varyag" Melnikov "
          I was not offended. I met the book about thirty years ago.
          "Well, Melnikov ... not a specialist for you."
          Rafail Melnikov - engineer - shipbuilder. I am not going to question his qualifications.
          But also the statement "could hardly provide the necessary rigidity" for me, as a mechanical engineer, there is no reason to draw any far-reaching conclusions. This is a kind of variable reasoning - could, could not. There are criteria for designing foundations. In order to assess how this foundation meets these criteria, you need to see its structure, firstly. Secondly, to determine that he does not perform his functions, one must see the results of the calculations. "Hardly" - this is somewhat wrong with all due respect to Rafail Melnikov. In the list of literature, which he used when writing a book, there is no source in which such calculations would be.
          “But do I understand correctly that the engineer Grippius, who arrived in Port Arthur specifically for the assembly of destroyer vehicles, is also, in your eyes, an amateur and not an expert?”
          You misunderstand. I have no doubt that he was a good specialist. But the fact that the "general skew of the machine" is necessarily caused by a weak foundation - I doubt it. There are still plenty of reasons that can cause this. If you have directly the conclusions of Grippius, where he directly indicates that the bias is connected with the problems of foundations, and not fragments of phrases without a general context - please.
          The same applies to Grippius calculations, which indicate that inertial forces have not been taken into account. I would like to see them, or at least a direct indication of this to Grippius.
          Meanwhile, there is one caveat. Complete mass balancing in a three-cylinder machine is not possible. Therefore, in order to completely balance the steam engine, there is a Schlick method. It consists in introducing the fourth cylinder into the design. Most often this is done by the device of two low-pressure cylinders. What do we have on the "Varangian". However, balancing the machine without calculating the inertial forces and their moments will not work. Can you explain this paradox?
          And bronze.
          Your phrase. "Problem number 4 was the use of a very specific material in the manufacture of bearings for steam engines. For this purpose, phosphorous and manganese bronzes were used, which, as far as the author knows, they weren’t used to some extent in shipbuilding "
          I gave you an excerpt from the Military Encyclopedia of the beginning of the century, where it is written that similar materials in shipbuilding are applied and do not apply to refinements. Therefore, I do not accept reproach.
          1. +1
            24 June 2018 19: 42
            Quote: Curious
            Rafail Melnikov - engineer - shipbuilder. I am not going to question his qualifications.

            Great, I'm glad.
            Quote: Curious
            I met the book about thirty years ago.

            And with which, if not secret? It has been reprinted several times and the publications are quite significantly different from each other.
            Quote: Curious
            But the statement “could hardly provide the necessary rigidity” for me, as a mechanical engineer, is not a reason to draw any far-reaching conclusions.

            OK, nevertheless, Melnikov expressed such a hypothesis and taking into account the “general bias” of the machine diagnosed by Gippius, it seems to me that it has a right to life. In addition, I still wrote
            But alas, this is only the first and maybe not even the most significant lack of steam engines of the latest Russian cruiser.

            that is, I propose to go to the rest
            Quote: Curious
            If you have directly the conclusions of Grippius, where he directly indicates that the bias is connected with the problems of foundations, and not fragments of phrases without a general context - give.

            No, I do not have
            Quote: Curious
            The same applies to Grippius calculations, which indicate that inertial forces have not been taken into account. I would like to see them, or at least a direct indication of this to Grippius.

            No problem

            Quote: Curious
            And bronze.

            I understood, and yes, I accept this rebuke. But firstly - in this case, I’m hardly so guilty, because I immediately stipulated that this statement is only the opinion of the author. And secondly, it was all the same that we did not have such bearings and gaskets for them in either Port Arthur or St. Petersburg, which, incidentally, had to be ordered by Kramp.
            1. +4
              24 June 2018 23: 11
              Perhaps we can summarize our fruitful discussion.
              I have the book of Melnikov in 1983.
              On the foundations, we have nothing more than a hypothesis based on Melnikov’s assumption and not supported by any technical calculations. We also do not have information about the calculations.
              On issue number 2. On it we will rely on this book.

              But it allows us to conclude that the problem was not in the vicious design of the machine, but in the fact that the steam distribution system did not work, which allows to significantly regulate the distribution of work between the cylinders.
              The reasons may be different. It may not have been adjusted at the factory yet; perhaps the machine team was not able to operate it, as well as providing the necessary steam parameters.
              On problem No. 3 everything seems to be clear. And Gippius does not say that the machine was calculated without taking into account inertial loads. As for the remark that the angle between the cranks did not correspond to the methodology, it is not at all clear what angle is meant and what is its significance, since there is no detailed drawing of the crankshaft.
              Yes, in a triple-expansion machine, the angle between bloodworms is 120 degrees.
              But as soon as we proceed to balancing according to the Schlick method and put two low-pressure pulsers, the calculation procedure becomes more complicated, including the angle between the bloodworms. On what Melnikov’s statement was based is a mystery. Did someone count the angles? Where then is this calculation?
              On problem No. 4, we kind of came to a consensus.
              I really enjoyed the discussion and I hope I convinced you that some questions for presentation require special knowledge.
              1. 0
                24 June 2018 23: 33
                Quote: Curious
                Perhaps we can summarize our fruitful discussion.

                Rather, stop her while she is still fruitful? :)))) hi
                Quote: Curious
                On the foundations, we have nothing more than a hypothesis based on Melnikov’s assumption and not supported by any technical calculations.

                Maybe yes, maybe not. I have no opportunity to clarify with R. M. what he based this hypothesis on.
                Quote: Curious
                But it allows us to conclude that the problem was not in the vicious design of the machine, but in the fact that the steam distribution system did not work, which allows to significantly regulate the distribution of work between the cylinders.

                That is yes. The design of the machine was, by definition, blameless :)))) Victor, judge for yourself - there is a machine and there are problems with the distribution of steam across the cylinders. There is a suggestion by Gippius who touched this car with his hands (I will quote him again):
                Here the guess suggests itself that the Kramp plant, in a hurry to turn in the cruiser, did not manage to verify the steam distribution; the machine was quickly upset, and on the ship, naturally, they began to correct the parts that suffered more than others in the sense of heating, knocking, without eliminating the root cause. In general, to straighten out a vehicle that was originally malfunctioning from the factory by ship’s means is undoubtedly an extremely difficult, if not impossible, task.

                Quote: Curious
                The reasons may be different. It may not have been adjusted at the factory yet; perhaps the machine team was not able to operate it, as well as providing the necessary steam parameters.

                But Gippius in his guess indicates a very specific reason - Kramp. At the same time, the machine team (due to constant problems with the boilers) did not "know how", but could not provide the required parameters.
                Quote: Curious
                On problem No. 3 everything seems to be clear. And Gippius does not say that the machine was calculated without taking into account inertial loads. As for the remark that the angle between the cranks did not correspond to the methodology, it is not at all clear what angle is meant and what is its significance, since there is no detailed drawing of the crankshaft.

                I’m sorry, but if you don’t understand what exactly Gippius meant, then what are your reasons to challenge his verdict? Yes, Melnikov is not so detailed, does not give drawings, verbatim the report of Gippius does not lead. But he clearly read it himself and his conclusions are similar to those made by the engineer.
                Quote: Curious
                On problem No. 4, we kind of came to a consensus.

                If you recognize various bearing materials as one of the causes of problems with the machine, then yes. hi
                1. +3
                  25 June 2018 00: 04
                  Well. If I did not convince you, then at least refreshed some moments in my memory. However, I want to note one point. You write a lot and interestingly and you already have a certain audience, that is, your articles are already for someone - a source of information. Therefore, with this approach, you risk becoming a source of various tales, such as a three-bayonet bayonet compensates for derivation and of which a great many roam on the Internet.
        3. +2
          25 June 2018 16: 33
          Melnikov is not the ultimate truth, like any other monograph. A certain unknown Grippius sounds more like a murzilka.
          1. +1
            25 June 2018 17: 39
            Quote: Dr_Engie
            A certain unknown Grippius sounds more like a murzilka.

            All de Gippius (my fault, my typo). And then, it is strange that the opinion of an engineer picking a Varyag machine with his own hands, and even writing a detailed work on this issue, sounds like a murzilka.
            Counter-question - what sounds like “not a murzilka”? :)
    2. 0
      24 June 2018 13: 40
      Quote: Curious
      By the way, after raising the Varyag cruiser, the Japanese named it Soya, carried out high-quality repairs without replacing boilers, machines and foundations, and the cruiser issued an 22,7 unit and was successfully operated by the Japanese.

      Oops ... It's already interesting. Yes
      1. 0
        24 June 2018 13: 42
        Andrey Respect !!!
      2. +2
        24 June 2018 15: 24
        Greetings! So this question takes me more than 20 years! Why did the Japanese, without fundamentally changing anything, achieve in the day-to-day operation the same results that were under the first commander of the Varyag k1r Bere?
        1. +1
          24 June 2018 16: 48
          Answered above :))))
    3. +1
      24 June 2018 16: 05
      By the way, after raising the Varyag cruiser, the Japanese named it Soya, carried out high-quality repairs without replacing boilers, machines and foundations, and the cruiser issued an 22,7 unit and was successfully operated by the Japanese.

      Dear colleague, can I ask a question? Where does this data come from? No, I also met on Tsushima allegations that Soya and Tsugaru in Japanese hands acquired simply unprecedented agility, but ... without details. Not that I thought it was completely impossible, just the opposite - it could well be. However, it is not clear ... when were these tests carried out? In what load? How long could the cruisers maintain this move? Here is the fact that when the "Varangian" was bought out and he was in a rather poor condition, it is known quite accurately.
      For days, armed with notebooks and pencils, stokers, non-commissioned officers and foremen crawled along the compartments, studying mechanisms and systems on the spot.

      Heavily worn ships were also in extremely poor condition, and almost all systems, devices and mechanisms required repairs.

      And after the repair, the old song began again: the boilers do not work, the bearings heat up ...
      And was he this very move in the 22 node?
      1. +3
        24 June 2018 17: 27
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        when were these tests carried out?

        In November 1907, with forced traction, the capacity of mechanisms reached 17 126 l. s., and at 155 rpm the speed was 22,71 knots.
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        when the "Varangian" was bought out and he was in rather poor condition, it is known quite accurately.

        Apparently, this is due to the fact that he was simply "beaten". After the last long four-month campaign, the cruiser was withdrawn from the Training Squadron, and five months later transferred to Russia.
        1. +1
          24 June 2018 19: 20
          Thank you, Valentine. hi
          And on the “Tsugar” - “Pallade” is there such an infa? feel
          1. +3
            24 June 2018 20: 10
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Thank you, Valentine.

            Not at all, Ivan.
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            And on the “Tsugar” - “Pallade” is there such an infa?

            At hand there is little that I share. In the 1906 year (Meiji 39) on the June 25 of the 1906, the Tsugaru was towed and, under the escort of the 29 of June, arrived in Sasebo, where it began to be repaired. In 1908 (according to other sources, in 1910), the repair was completed.
            Some alterations are striking, the pipes are clearly not "native".

            According to H. Jentschura, D. Jung "Die japanischen Kriegsschiffe 1869-1945", the test reached a speed of 22,75 knots. It seems unlikely, but for what I bought, for what I sold.
            1. 0
              25 June 2018 07: 47
              Wow b..lin! There are no words, only interjections!
    4. +2
      24 June 2018 21: 36
      V. N. Thank you for the comprehensive supplement. In this case, I see one explanation: Negligence
    5. 0
      25 June 2018 09: 20
      The same thing happened with the Pallas.
      Without replacing boilers.
      But with the redistribution of variable loads and the competent configuration of the CMU.
      The cruiser stopped burying its nose like a “pig” and confidently walked 20-21 knots.
    6. 0
      25 June 2018 16: 30
      This man in an article about linear cruisers wrote that the liquid (oil) in PTZ boules reduces the damage from a torpedo explosion, despite the fact that it transfers shock-wave energy better than air. Not to mention other jambs. Normal authors about the fleet were in Tsushima, at alternathistory.com, but not here.
      1. +1
        25 June 2018 17: 44
        Quote: Dr_Engie
        This man wrote in an article about battlecruisers that liquid (oil) in PTZ boules reduces the damage from a torpedo explosion

        That's right, reduces. But not by itself, of course, but as an element of the PTZ, as I said in the comments.
        Quote: Dr_Engie
        Not to mention other jambs.

        I like that! How's Carrol?
        "He saved 100 team from danger,
        But stubbornly silent from what "
        I always answer any comments on the jambs in the comments to the articles, and if the jambs are really found, I will write a refutation.
  8. +3
    24 June 2018 14: 02
    Thanks for the article. Very informative. A few words about the bearings. That's right - phosphor bronze is better suited for bearings with shock-variable load i.e. connecting rod. In Russia, for the most part, they could use tin-zinc bronze. It is no worse than phosphorous, but the clearance tolerances for oil requirements are different there.
  9. +1
    24 June 2018 14: 24
    Andrey, you can have a practical, so to speak, question. And how the battle was to manage the cutting. which. in fact, it does not give a review.
  10. +4
    24 June 2018 15: 36
    However, in fairness, it should be noted that the MTK did not control this moment, however, it should be understood that no one set a task to monitor every sneeze of Americans, and this was not possible.




    “One of the four crankshafts for the Russian cruiser Varyag. In addition to these forgings, Bethlehem Works provided all the shafts for the ship along with piston rods and connecting rods. The latter were made of hardened nickel steel oil to give the products special physical qualities. All the steel used was met and tested in accordance with the requirements established by the Russian Ministry of the Navy All parts were manufactured under the personal supervision of naval officers and engineers who were commanders us by the Russian government for this purpose. " Marine engineers. 1900

    Control was carried out, Kramp built for Russia, what was requested. high-speed long-range reconnaissance. True with some limitations. I will not get ahead of myself.
  11. +1
    24 June 2018 16: 56
    Andrew! I, who graduated from the Physics and Technology Institute, understand what you wanted to say. But! You have a lot of mistakes. And is it worth it to go deeper when we wait?
    1. +1
      24 June 2018 17: 06
      Quote: Ecilop
      But! You have a lot of mistakes.

      Well, let's get it right.
      Quote: Ecilop
      And is it worth it to go deeper when we wait?

      The question is - if my mistakes are such that they refute my final conclusions, then you need to understand. If we are talking about the incorrect use of terms or an incorrect description of some processes that do not affect the final result, then it is at your discretion, although I would still be interested
      I generally like to get smarter :))) The easiest way to do this is when the pros explain something to your fingers :)))
      1. 0
        24 June 2018 17: 19
        No, Andrei, we will not understand. Is it needed on a single site scale?
        With pleasure if we meet. Moreover, between us all ...
        There you can and in the bathhouse, and .... khe ...
        I do not dispute the final conclusions. You are right, but ......
        Only 200 km between us, can we be confused? It is extremely interesting.
        1. +2
          24 June 2018 17: 34
          Quote: Ecilop
          Only 200 km between us, can we be confused? It is extremely interesting.

          Yes, I would love to, but for now - alas, nothing. Until I work - every rupee counts, and any trip of mine is a separation from the articles, which I cannot afford. But ... My unemployment, this is not forever, so purkua would not be na? :)
          1. +2
            24 June 2018 18: 02
            Of course. Purcoy would have been. Everything will be light. drinks
  12. +3
    24 June 2018 17: 12
    Yeah, it seems that all the same, our author is somewhat skidded. Varyag had problems with bearings, but they were not caused by a “weak foundation”, but in general by the extreme loads on sliding bearings and its insufficient cooling. By the way, the bearing shells were filled with “babbitt” (white metal) and often cooling problems led to the melting of the babbitt and damage to the bronze shell. If you believe the same Melnikov - in Port Arthur they simply could not ensure the normal filling of bearings, as a result of which the cruiser several times went to their “running-in” but could not develop speed. bearings began to overheat ...
    1. +2
      25 June 2018 00: 12
      Quote: Taoist
      Varyag had problems with bearings, but they were not caused by a “weak foundation”, but in general by the extreme loads on sliding bearings and its insufficient cooling. By the way, the bearing shells were filled with “babbitt” (white metal) and often cooling problems led to the melting of the babbitt and damage to the bronze shell. If you believe the same Melnikov - in Port Arthur they simply could not ensure the normal filling of bearings, as a result of which the cruiser several times went to their “running-in” but could not develop speed. bearings began to overheat ...

      We are missing a very important aspect of the problem — the alignment of the shafts and mechanisms. And the load on the bearings largely depends on this, how the heating and lubrication of the bearings occurs. And correctly lay the 13-meter crankshaft to adjust and center the shaft line is a rather complicated problem.
  13. +2
    24 June 2018 17: 51
    Very violent fantasy of the author on a technical topic.
    No. 1. Where does the information about the supposedly "light foundation" come from? Such things are necessarily approved by the MTK, in case of doubt, calculations are requested, which are necessarily checked.
    If you look at the drawings, then under the car the Bogatyr has three stringers, the Varyag has five. And, the width of the body (as well as the length / width ratio) does not affect the longitudinal strength.
    There is no information about the lack of longitudinal strength and supposedly excessive "flexibility" of the "Varyag" hull.
    Crump made no mistake: the power of the machines corresponded to the steam output of the afterburner boilers.
    No. 2. There was no depravity in the Kramp machines, they didn’t differ from the "heroic" or "Bayan" machines in any "slanting". It was just necessary to supply the required pressure steam.
    The mechanism disconnecting the crankshaft from the low pressure cylinders was, it was only necessary to unscrew the connecting rod from the HF, and screw it back at the right time. The "push-button" option is, in principle, impossible.
    The inertia forces had a “very unfavorable” (according to I. I. Gippius) effect on the medium and low pressure cylinders due to the lack of steam in the low-pressure cylinder, and not because of the myth that Kramp ignored the theory of balancing.
    Number 4. If unusual material is used in such an expensive and complex device as PM, then this is necessarily stipulated in the instructions for it. The use of other materials is entirely on the conscience of the operators.
    1. +5
      24 June 2018 20: 20
      Quote: Jura 27
      Very violent fantasy of the author on a technical topic.

      Does Jura 27 tell me? :))))))
      Quote: Jura 27
      Where does the information about the supposedly "light foundation" come from? Such things must be approved by the MTK.

      Yura, we can actually end on this, because if you don’t know how Crump acted in terms of coordinating anything with the MTK, then what are we talking about? MTK could never claim all the necessary materials for the project, what it received was corrected (as, for example, the extremely weakened corps in the original project). What I didn’t see, I couldn’t fix it, respectively
      Quote: Jura 27
      There is no information about the lack of longitudinal strength and supposedly excessive "flexibility" of the "Varyag" hull.

      Yes, except for the opinion of shipbuilding engineer Melnikov and the fact that Crump would be caught by the hand when trying to critically weaken the hull
      Quote: Jura 27
      There was no depravity in the Kramp machines, they didn’t differ from the "heroic" or "Bayan" machines in any "slanting".

      Yes, everything is as always - Jura 27 came and began to teach two shipbuilding engineers now, one of whom (Gippius) worked directly on the Varyag in the PA (despite the fact that this was not his job, he was engaged in destroyers, so somehow to pass on to Kramp he had no reason)
      Quote: Jura 27
      The mechanism disconnecting the crankshaft from the low pressure cylinders was

      And here Yura knows everything better :)))
      Quote: Jura 27
      it was only necessary to unscrew the connecting rod from the HF, and at the right time to screw it back.

      Jura I already really want to offer you to demonstrate this on the go cruiser :)))
      Quote: Jura 27
      The inertia forces had a “very unfavorable” (according to I. I. Gippius) effect on the medium and low pressure cylinders due to the lack of steam in the low-pressure cylinder, and not because of the myth that Kramp ignored the theory of balancing.

      See copy above
      Quote: Jura 27
      If unusual material is used in such an expensive and complex device as PM, then this is necessarily stipulated in the instructions for it.

      Yeah, and if something suddenly broke, you had to contact the nearest service center.
      The Pepsi Generation ...
      1. +2
        24 June 2018 21: 44
        Answered point by point and exhaustively
      2. 0
        26 June 2018 11: 45
        For technical reasons, there’s nothing to answer for you, so verbiage has begun about the Pepsi generation, service centers, etc.
        So the technical part again:
        1. Insufficient design strength of the case is common, Kramp has its own strength standards, MTK has its own (more stringent). MTK demanded to do it, Kramp complied. No information is available regarding the weakness of the foundations.
        But there is an opinion of RMM that “A light machine foundation, mounted on an equally lightweight body, could hardly provide the necessary rigidity”, and also an opinion of RMM that “In a better position was a twin-screw, but it had a shorter and wider, and therefore and a tougher case of the Bogatyr. "
        To begin with, the “Bogatyr” was longer than the “Varyag”, but the width has nothing to do with it, because we are talking about the longitudinal strength of the body. And because Since the cars were located not in the heaviest section of the ship (with the greatest deformations), but with a significant shift to the stern, then we should rather talk about local strength, within the MO. And there, under the cars, the “Varyag” had five stringers, unlike the three German ones. In addition, there is no information about at least some weakness or lightness of the "Varyag" corps. As there is absolutely no information about the need for reinforcement of the foundations of machines, or the impact of their weaknesses on the operation of machines. Therefore, all the insinuations of the author of the post on this topic are not confirmed by anything.
        2. Gippius directly writes that the machines are designed correctly, i.e. I wrote correctly that there is no corruption in the machines of Kramp. Or do you want to object to an engineer who "touched the Varyag" with his hands?
        According to Gippius, the causes of the disruption of the machine: vertical distortion of the HF as a result of pouring bearings with metal other than the factory one and, accordingly, the distortion and disruption of the work of all moving parts. Those. illiterate repair.
        But these are consequences, and the root cause, according to Gippius' guess, is not a verified steam distribution at the plant and right there he writes, without any guesses, about the lack of steam pressure for smooth operation of the machine. Those. it is possible that there is the fault of Crump, but then again, with proper operation (sufficient steam pressure), the breakdown of the machine would not have happened.
        3. Now about the "service centers". If you yourself do not know how to repair (mechanics of the cruiser), then yes, you need to hand over the product to the then "service center". And where were the "service centers" besides Philadelphia and all sorts of English with Germany? Yes, right in Arthur!
        Initially, the management wanted to hand over the cars to Gippius and the NZ workers for repairs, then changed their minds and decided that they themselves with a mustache (like Gippius is unreliable, for a private trader) - and handed over to their naval repairmen. But his "servocenter", in the end, did not pull up the difficult work - they repaired the repair, but there wasn’t any sense. Those. again the same rake, - unskilled repair.
        4. About the "push-button" shutdown of the extra cylinder. You can finally understand what I wrote, that this is not possible in principle. Because separation of the connecting rod and the "knee" is required.
        “Push-button”, you can only turn off the steam supply to the cylinder, but the piston with the slider and connecting rod will still move.
        1. +2
          27 June 2018 11: 45
          Quote: Jura 27
          And there, under the cars, the “Varyag” had five stringers, unlike the three German ones.

          Yura, tell me, as an artist to an artist, do you know how to count stringers? Here is the cross section of the Varangian, and below, in another comment (do not insert into one two figures) - Oleg (to the left - Bogatyr) Let's calculate together where there are five and where there are three stringers :)))

          Quote: Jura 27
          Gippius directly writes that the machines are designed correctly, i.e. I wrote correctly that there is no corruption in the machines of Kramp.

          Yura, getting out is not good. You wrote to us
          Quote: Jura 27
          There was no depravity in the Kramp machines, they didn’t differ from the "heroic" or "Bayan" machines in any "slanting". It was just necessary to supply the required pressure steam.

          But I'm glad that you deigned to finally read Melnikov and find out that the jambs were still
          Quote: Jura 27
          But these are consequences, and the root cause, according to Gippius' guess, is not a verified steam distribution at the plant and right there he writes, without any guesses, about the lack of steam pressure for smooth operation of the machine. Those. it is possible that there is the fault of Crump, but then again, with proper operation (sufficient steam pressure), the breakdown of the machine would not have happened.

          First, let's start with the fact that the "competent operation" of Nikloss boilers was not possible, respectively, a link to the crew is not about anything. Secondly, you give out a bug for a feature - the fact that the machine could work normally only at pressures in 15 atmospheres and above is not its normal state, the steam engine can and should work at lower pressure. If the fact that the Varangian machine could not work at a pressure below 15 atm were natural, Gippius would not speak about the incorrect steam distribution. And finally, the third - you again modestly kept silent about the theory of balancing the forces of inertia.
          Quote: Jura 27
          And where were the "service centers" besides Philadelphia and all sorts of English with Germany? Yes, right in Arthur!

          We will get to Arthur, because for now we are limited only to the reasons that brought the Varyag EU to a poor state, and not how we subsequently fought it. But I must immediately say that the repair proposed by Gippius in the PA was simply impossible.
          Quote: Jura 27
          About the "push-button" shutdown of the extra cylinder. You can finally understand what I wrote, that this is not possible in principle

          Yura, you wrote to us
          Quote: Jura 27
          The mechanism disconnecting the crankshaft from the low pressure cylinders was, it was only necessary to unscrew the connecting rod from the HF

          Well, for some reason Melnikov believes that it was not. Not a techie, of course.
          1. +1
            27 June 2018 11: 46
            But the stringers of Oleg and Bogatyr

            Well, come on, Yura! Show us where there are five stringers, where three :))) At the same time, you can comment on how stupid Melnikov that he considered the Bogatyr’s case more durable
            1. 0
              28 June 2018 08: 09
              I will show right away, as soon as I see, a cross section along the Varyag school. There is only “Athlete” in your picture, I hope you see only three stringers in it?
              According to the RMM, - I do not need to ascribe too much, I just noted that the RMM was decently wrong, believing that the "Hero" is shorter than the "Varyag".
          2. +1
            27 June 2018 16: 16
            The mechanism disconnecting the crankshaft from the low pressure cylinders was, it was only necessary to unscrew the connecting rod from the HF
            Well, for some reason Melnikov believes that there wasn’t

            Ghm ... in my colleague Jura this is exactly what he had in mind. Maybe I'm wrong, but there was no other way to turn off the cylinder from work with the then technologies.
            1. +1
              27 June 2018 22: 27
              There was no other way to turn off the cylinder when working with the technologies of that time.

              And now this is a prerequisite, but not the only one.
              Yura writes
              The mechanism disconnecting the crankshaft from the low pressure cylinders was, it was necessary only unscrew connecting rod from HF

              This is wrong. Where will the steam go after DDS? It is necessary to have a bypass directly to the capacitor, bypassing the low-pressure valve spools, switching the valves ... shutdown of the low-pressure cylinder should be provided for by the design of the machine. And as a result of shutdown, there is no crawl, and asymmetric loads on the shaft and bearings will be even greater.
          3. 0
            28 June 2018 09: 07
            I can do it, but you can point out in the pictures of the stringer under the machines of both CRs?
            You get it out, tk. Gippius found no corruption in the machines, but found that they were designed correctly. And judging by the aftermath of the exploitation of the Jews, it was he, and not RMM, who was right.
            How is it not possible proper operation? On Retvisan is possible, but boilers of the same factory on Varyag are impossible? You have no logic.
            It can work at lower pressure, only there is not enough wat steam for the last cylinders, hence the “knee” skew.
            Ostensibly unbalanced forces of inertia did not interfere after the long Pulpino exploitation, so this is a private opinion of the RMM, not confirmed by anything (including Gippius).
            How is this a partition in Arthur impossible, if Gippius was offered to repair, but then decided that they could handle it themselves.
            You are confusing everything, there was no “push-button" mechanism, I am writing to you for the third time about this, is it really so difficult to understand?
            1. 0
              29 June 2018 19: 09
              Quote: Jura 27
              I can do it, but you can point out in the pictures of the stringer under the machines of both CRs?

              Naturally.
              Quote: Jura 27
              You get it out, tk. Gippius found no corruption in the machines, but found that they were designed correctly.

              In addition to improper assembly, incorrect steam distribution, and their design mismatch with the modern theory of inertia of mechanisms at that time? Yes, I didn’t find
              Quote: Jura 27
              And judging by the aftermath of the exploitation of the Jews, it was he, and not RMM, who was right.

              Who told you such nonsense?
              Quote: Jura 27
              How is it not possible proper operation? On Retvisan is possible, but boilers of the same factory on Varyag are impossible?

              Who told you that it was possible on Retvisan?
              Quote: Jura 27
              You have no logic.

              Not Jura, there is logic, but you obviously have something wrong with knowledge
              Quote: Jura 27
              It can work at lower pressure, only there is not enough wat steam for the last cylinders, hence the “knee” skew.

              What was not natural for steam engines. This, I hope, is clear?
              Quote: Jura 27
              Allegedly not balanced forces of inertia, did not interfere with the aftermath of the long exploitation

              Why do you think so?:))))
              Quote: Jura 27
              How is this a partition in Arthur impossible, if Gippius was offered to repair, but then decided that they could handle it themselves.

              Varyag’s machines needed to be repaired, they needed to be repaired and they were going to do it, but the repair, even if it were carried out by Gippius, would still be half-hearted, he would improve the situation but did not fundamentally solve the problem
              1. 0
                30 June 2018 05: 25
                [/ quote] Naturally.

                Not shmogla, so not shmogla. Or wait until you count the stringers under the machines?
                In addition to improper assembly, incorrect steam distribution, and their design mismatch with the modern theory of inertia of mechanisms at that time? Yes, I didn’t find

                Give a quote from Hippius confirming your exuberant fantasy.
                Who told you such nonsense?

                Long-term operation of the machine is stupid?
                Not Jura, there is logic, but you obviously have something wrong with knowledge

                That is, in your opinion, it is logical that the boilers of one plant can work differently (with accidents and without) on two different ships?
                What was not natural for steam engines. This, I hope, is clear?

                I understand that this is called illiterate exploitation.
                Why do you think so?:))))

                With afterulpinskoy long-term operation.
                but the repair, even if it was carried out by Gippius, would still be half-hearted, he would improve the situation but did not fundamentally solve the problem [quote]

                Who told you that? Gippius saw the way to proper repair, unlike the mechanics of the fleet.
                1. 0
                  1 July 2018 16: 03
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Gippius saw the way to proper repair

                  From which it does not follow that he had everything necessary for its implementation
  14. +7
    24 June 2018 18: 12
    And ndrey continues to open these sharks of capitalism-trump with the Nikloss wink
    But explicitly does not take into account several important things. Not a techie, it seems smile
    1. The hull of Askold was distinguished by low strength and the ship vibrated strongly on the move, and the loads on the vehicles were much higher than on the Varangian. And there were no problems with the car. And, of course, the speculative assumptions about the length of the machines and the connections of this length are not very serious without numbers.
    And all the more strange looks on the background
    A guess suggests itself here ...

    clear conclusion
    Obviously, C. Crump is entirely to blame for this lack of the Varyag power plant.

    Conclusion from the guess - a strong move! hi
    2. The bearing was warming slightly at high speeds even initially, before the operation of the ship; therefore, it is surprising to associate this problem with the loads during operation.
    3. The fact that the machines had increased power is actually good,
    since it allowed to use one of the machines at a lower load, and partially removed the problem of overheating.
    4. The fact that during the repair in Port Arthur chose the wrong material for the liners - and guessed it when they began to fail - this is not the problem of Crump, but the repairmen.
    5. Andrei did not tell, but where does the steam go after leaving the third cylinder? But in vain, this is exactly where it lies, perhaps the main problem of Varyag operation - then there was a refrigerator, in which the steam was cooled with overboard water and again entered the boiler, saving fresh water, although desalination plants were there. There were problems with this on Varyag. In the refrigerator, ordinary copper pipes were used, which were cut to size and changed during the current repair by the team. If the tubes were improperly installed, sea water entered the boiler, which led to the formation of scale on the pipes and impaired boiler water passage, and accordingly, this led to a deterioration in the cooling of the pipes and their burning out, which was one of the most important problems of Varyag.
    The peculiarity of Nikloss boilers was that there was a constructive “tube in tube” with a relatively small gap, and with the formation of scale, local areas with poor cooling appeared - which led to the burning of the boiler tubes.
    For Belleville boilers, for example, the problem was not so acute, there was one pipe with a sufficient diameter.
    Yes, the Nikloss boilers required a higher level of service from the team, but on the same Retvisan they were able to provide this, after an accidental rupture of one boiler tube at the very beginning, there were no further problems with the Nikloss boiler. But the topic of low qualification of the Varyag team traditionally does not arise, and here Andrei went the traditional way smile
    6. Concerning the vapor pressure.
    It seems that the author did not quite understand that speed is not directly related to pressure. Steam is supplied to the cylinders under a certain pressure of 14 atm, regardless of speed. A small pressure reserve of 1-2 atm is created for the normal operation of the steam engine and to ensure the throttle response — the ability to quickly increase speed — and in this matter, Nickloss boilers were better than Delville boilers, since the first tube was connected in parallel, and the second - sequentially.
    The author’s articles are always read with interest, they are well-designed, usually objective, but in this cycle, as it seems to me, the author exaggerates the guilt of Kramp and Nikloss, and pays little attention to the crew and ship repairmen. They were interested in what the liner needed to be made of, only after it began to fail! Such a trial-and-error service can kill any ship, especially if the prerequisites were initially.
    But in general, I look forward to continuing.
    It’s even interesting how exactly this Zramdey Kramp will turn out to be vivat in that the Varyag gunners fired an order of magnitude worse than Askold’s gunners wink
    1. Cat
      +2
      24 June 2018 18: 52
      I suggest you read the previous article of the Author, there is just about the boilers. And the conclusions are similar to yours.
      Sincerely, Kitty!
      1. +1
        26 June 2018 01: 03
        I read.
        not convinced.
        as in this article, the author makes an unsubstantiated assumption that problems with the machine are associated with a longer length, which does not indicate anything.
        The rigidity of the 2 case is correct, according to the author Askold, was even lower than that of the Varangian, this is well known, but there were no problems with the machine.
        1. 0
          26 June 2018 01: 16
          Quote: Avior
          as in this article, the author makes an unsubstantiated assumption

          Not an author. Shipbuilding engineer Melnikov :)
          Quote: Avior
          The rigidity of the 2 case is correct, according to the author Askold, was even lower than that of the Varangian, this is well known, but there were no problems with the machine.

          And Melnikov explains why - Askold’s (three-screw) machines were significantly shorter, which naturally reduced the effect of the “breathing” body on the crankshaft
    2. +2
      24 June 2018 19: 01
      It’s even interesting how exactly this Zramdey Kramp will turn out to be vivat in that the Varyag gunners fired an order of magnitude worse than Askold’s gunners

      Elementary Watson. The villain Kramp made a long, narrow and lightweight case, as a result of the elastic deformation of which the gun mounts moved relative to each other, the rangefinder post and the glavart's workplace, which led to incorrect aiming of guns and systematic misses :))
    3. +1
      24 June 2018 19: 56
      Quote: Avior
      Not a techie, it seems

      Yes, I do not pretend.
      Quote: Avior
      Askold’s hull was notable for its low strength and the ship vibrated strongly on the move, and the loads on the vehicles were much higher than on the Varangian. And there were no problems with the car. And, of course, the speculative assumptions about the length of the machines and the connections of this length are not very serious without numbers.

      Opinion R.F. Does Melnikova mean anything to you? Unlike me, a sinful one, he is still a shipbuilder by profession :)
      Quote: Avior
      The bearing was warming slightly at high speeds even initially, before the operation of the ship; therefore, it is surprising to associate this problem with the loads during operation.

      One does not interfere with the other at all. And I have already cited the conclusions of Gippius
      Quote: Avior
      The fact that the cars had increased power is actually good,
      as it allowed to use one of the machines at a lower load

      What are you saying? :))) And how do you suggest Varyag walk on one screw? :)))) It is clear that the mechanism by which one machine will work on the 2 screw is possible, but the problem is that we have them there wasn’t (because, in fact, the three-screw “Relight” had such problems) and I don’t have any data so that such a mechanism was present on the Varangian
      Quote: Avior
      The fact that during the repair in Port Arthur they chose the wrong material for the liners - and guessed it when they began to fail - this is not the problem of Crump, but the repairmen.

      Wrong. The fact that the bearings began to fail long before they were supposed to according to the passport is the fault of Kramp. And the fact that the PA did not have the appropriate materials is not the fault of the repairmen.
      Quote: Avior
      Feature of Nikloss boilers

      It seems to be described by me in a previous article? :))))
      Quote: Avior
      Yes, Nikloss's boilers required a higher level of service from the team, but at the same Retwisan they were able to provide

      You are mistaken
      Quote: Avior
      But the topic of low qualification of the Varyag team traditionally does not arise, and here Andrei went the traditional way

      She was just very tall, and we still get to this.
      Quote: Avior
      but in this cycle, as it seems to me, the author exaggerates the guilt of Kramp and Nikloss, and pays little attention to the crew and ship repairmen. They were interested in what the liner needed to be made of, only after it began to fail

      Why so? All the necessary things were ordered in America, but the bad thing was that the cruiser needed to go, and the necessary materials were not received from abroad to the REV
      1. +1
        26 June 2018 00: 58
        Andrey, excuse me, Melnikov, of course, is a respected man, but, it seems, not a bearer of the Highest Truth.
        Quotes of authorities in general are a crafty thing, I gave you the opinion of the commander of the cruiser Oleg about the “goddesses” and “heroes” - and these are the ships that were “correct” in your approach to evaluating, they were accepted by competition. Or is the opinion of Commander Oleg not credible for you? wink
        As for Melnikov, with all due respect to him, he has his own biases. Not to mention the fact that if he suddenly forgot the Leninist article "Party Organization and Party Literature" about whether there is non-partisan literature, then in any Soviet publishing house they knew by heart, including in Shipbuilding, a handbook, however, in Soviet time.
        Try to look wider, rather than repeating behind those who came before you - and what would change in that real battle if everything was perfect and the cruiser gave 25 knots? Nothing, the car and the boilers just failed, and they did not know how to shoot at the Japanese.
        1. 0
          26 June 2018 01: 14
          Quote: Avior
          Andrey, excuse me, Melnikov, of course, is a respected man, but, it seems, not a bearer of the Highest Truth.

          Of course not. But the bottom line is that to subvert authority you need something. That is, you can easily write that "Melnikov is wrong because of this and that reason," but you can’t write "Melnikov is wrong because he may be wrong" :)))
          Quote: Avior
          Try to look wider, and not repeating behind those who came before you - and what would change in that real battle if everything was perfect, and the cruiser gave 25 nodes?

          Let's get to this! hi
          1. +2
            26 June 2018 09: 30
            Of course you're right.
            But we are talking about a general assessment of the flow of information, when individual flaws are presented as fundamental and critical.
            Have you been to defending dissertations? During the discussion, it seems to an outsider that the protection was clearly cut off - and in the end it turns out the other way around, since they mainly talk about shortcomings.
            The fact that Melnikov is always guilty of rotten tsarism and foreigners is no secret to anyone, and the tradition is like that. Well, in no way can a simple heroic people do something wrong.
            But from the cycle you get the impression that Kramp was uncontrollably setting something up on the principle of “they don’t show half-time fools,” and then he shoved the customer somehow.
            Although in fact all decisions were approved by the Russian side, moreover, some were at the insistence of the Russian side, the construction was carried out under the constant full control of the Russian side (the Germans on Askold neglected this, this is not a secret).
            Crump built exactly what they wanted from him in Russia, the project was largely experimental in nature, which did not cause any objection.
            The instruction to Baru spoke directly about this.
            The cruiser entrusted to you combines many improvements in shipbuilding and other specially technical branches of the marine industry and their further application will largely depend on the results achieved in their practical use

            The ship was constantly subjected to various checks, including those on arrival in the Far East, it is not surprising that there were a lot of papers on this.
      2. +1
        26 June 2018 01: 12
        Wrong. The fact that the bearings began to fail long before they were supposed to according to the passport is the fault of Kramp. And the fact that the PA did not have the appropriate materials is not the fault of the repairmen.

        Or a maintenance problem.
        And you are aware that the repairmen first made the insert, put it in, it dripped, and only after that they found out what it was necessary to do, and only then did the order be made?
        Quote: Avior
        Yes, Nikloss's boilers required a higher level of service from the team, but at the same Retwisan they were able to provide
        You are mistaken

        I will be glad to read what.
        Actually, I understand you, the topic of the possibility of guilt of generally recognized heroes is taboo by definition.
        But once it’s worth it and really make out what and how and not to repeat what is written on a track that has been rolled up over a hundred years.
        What are you saying? :))) And how do you propose that the Varangian walk on one screw? :))))

        it’s clear that you are not a techie) The screws could have different speeds and different loads on the machines, respectively.
      3. +1
        26 June 2018 01: 21
        And I have already cited the conclusions of Gippius

        this?
        Here guesses itself

        This is not a conclusion.
        I did not see an analysis of the operation of the team, but most of the problems with the boilers and the machine could well be caused by errors in operation
        1. 0
          26 June 2018 11: 32
          Quote: Avior
          Actually, I understand you, the topic of the possibility of guilt of generally recognized heroes is taboo by definition.

          It is extremely strange for me to hear such reproaches, given the fact that I constantly give a non-classical description of known events.
          Quote: Avior
          This is not a conclusion.

          This is exactly what the conclusion is. The guess is related to the reason why Crump did not bring the car to condition, and not to the fact that he did not bring them to condition - this is obvious from the context for any reader.
          Quote: Avior
          I did not see an analysis of the operation of the team, but most of the problems with the boilers and the machine could well be caused by errors in operation

          As an option, yes. And what's more, Gippius writes that installing bearings from a different material affected this.
          But he also writes about the fact that the team did not have the opportunity to fix the factory marriage of Kramp by repairing individual nodes.
          Quote: Avior
          it’s clear that you are not a techie) The screws could have different speeds and different loads on the machines, respectively.

          I re-read your comment and realized that I was inattentive - it seemed to me that you were talking about the complete stop of one of the cars, but this is not so.
          Quote: Avior
          And you are aware that the repairmen first made the insert, put it in, it dripped, and only after that they found out what it was necessary to do, and only then did the order be made?

          Hmm, and when do you think the order was made? And yes, what does this prove?
          Quote: Avior
          when individual flaws are presented as fundamental and critical.

          According to Gippius, the Varyag’s car was completely upset. Is this an uncritical flaw?
          Quote: Avior
          The fact that Melnikov is always guilty of rotten tsarism and foreigners is no secret to anyone, and the tradition is

          And where is the rebuttal to this? I repeat once again - Melnikov may be 100 times wrong, but his words cannot be refuted on the basis that he may be wrong
          Quote: Avior
          Although in fact all decisions were approved by the Russian side

          C'mon! :)))) A textbook example of two-layer armor is also Melnikov’s invention? :))))
          Not all decisions were approved by the Russian side, but of those that were approved, not all were approved by the MTK.
          1. 0
            26 June 2018 17: 04
            It is extremely strange for me to hear such reproaches, given the fact that I constantly give a non-classical description of known events.

            Sorry, take your words back smile , in no case did not want to offend you, and the remark is more likely not to you, but is of a general nature. It just seemed to me that in a particular series of articles you, for some reason, had an opinion formed before you examined the issue in detail, which is not typical for you. On the other hand, you repeatedly provide versatile information, so there can be no question of talking about any deliberate bias.
            this is obvious from the context for any reader

            I guess I'm not any)
            I have not yet seen anything so fundamental that it could not be attributed to the incompetence of the service. As I did not see any fundamental errors of Crump, which could not be corrected during the current repairs, they were made. “Completely upset,” frankly, I did not understand at all.
            I have not yet seen evidence that this was a fundamentally significant factory defect, and not a consequence of the erroneous operation of a technically more complex device.
            A textbook example of two-layer armor is also Melnikov’s invention? :))))

            The design was approved by the Russian side, although not the MTK (red tape, however, but the time reserve was very small), and Melnikov writes about this.
            Having not received an answer to their requests from the MTK, the commission on September 8, 1898 accepted Kramp's proposal to rivet the armored deck of two layers

            But this is a purely domestic Russian problem, not Crump.
            again Melnikov
            To some extent, one cannot help but sympathize with Kramp, who wrote: “Can we count on the successful progress of work on our cruiser, when belated instructions are given to the commission many months after the start of construction. Something must be left to the discretion of the commission and ours. The same ship cannot be built simultaneously in Russia and the United States. ” Indeed, the decisions of the MTK were not always operational, since, unfortunately, the Varyag for the MTK was only one of 70 warships being built then in Russia and abroad, and each of them required complex, numerous and urgent decisions. And very often it was too late to demand changes when the ship was already under construction.

            And the penalty for disruption of the contract is at Krampe
            But the number of waterproof bulkheads on Askold was changed without the consent of the Russian side.
    4. 0
      26 June 2018 12: 27
      Avior (Sergey) writes:
      6. Concerning the vapor pressure.
      It seems that the author did not quite understand that speed is not directly related to pressure. Steam is supplied to cylinders under a certain pressure of 14 atm. regardless of speed

      Eto some kind of new mechanics. Dear Sergey, not only the author "do not quite understand". Do not explain to" semi-technicians "how you will regulate the PM power and hence the screw speed at constant steam pressure? It’s akin to removing the “gas” pedal in cars - always supply the same amount of fuel / mixture and expect to somehow get different DVG power.
      3. The fact that the machines had increased power is actually good,
      since it allowed to use one of the machines at a lower load, and partially removed the problem of overheating.

      This is not clear. Why it is necessary to have partial loads different machine power and how does it solve the problem of heating bearings under conditions close to full speed?
      1. +1
        26 June 2018 16: 39
        and you are not surprised that the speed of the car is changing, and the gasoline in the tank is the same? wink
        At the boiler exit and inlet to the steam engine, a constant steam pressure is maintained, for which the machine is designed with a small margin, and the PM speed is not controlled by the steam pressure, but by the amount of steam supplied to the cylinder during each cycle.
        The regulation of the amount of steam is carried out either by shutting off the filling (quantitative regulation), or by changing the cross section of the steam line at the inlet of the cylinder — throttle control.
        1. 0
          26 June 2018 19: 07
          The regulation of the amount of steam is carried out either by cutting off the filling (quantitative regulation)

          Such devices that independently from the current revolutions, the steam inlet into the cylinder was completely opened / closed then there was none.
          ... or by changing the cross section of the steam line at the inlet to the cylinder - throttle control.

          That’s what it is- after the valve the pressure drops (it is throttled as they say)), which regulates the power / speed, so where is your "[i] constant vapor pressure fed into the cylinder [/I]"?.
          1. 0
            27 June 2018 09: 34
            There is a more complicated process.
            While the spool is closed, the pressure is up to the throttle, which is the same after it.
            At the moment when the shut-off valve opens, the vapor pressure in the cylinder is zero, steam begins to flow into the cylinder, and the pressure in it begins to increase at a speed determined by the vapor pressure at the PM inlet and the position of the throttle valve (in fact, the process is even more complicated - the piston does not stands still).
            Thus, the pressure in the cylinder changes all the time with the speed determined by the amount of steam received by the cylinder, the flow rate of which is regulated by the throttle. PM rotational speed will be determined by the amount of steam entering the cylinder before the spool closes.
            Thus, the pressure after the throttle valve with the valve closed is the same as the inlet pressure, with the open valve, it will constantly increase up to the inlet pressure if the valve is opened for a sufficient time.
            So do you understand?
            1. 0
              27 June 2018 15: 31
              So do you understand?

              I'm afraid something is incomprehensible to you. To clarify, you need to return at the beginning, you wrote that
              Steam is supplied to cylinders under a certain pressure of 14 atm. regardless from speed

              I then, saying that this is wrong, I asked you a question - how in this (your) case the power of the machine is regulated (and hence the speed / speed - not the brakes)).
              And here begins the "dancing with a tambourine" - you, well describing the processes in the car, do not consider the main thing, how it is controlled. The spool is rigidly connected to the shaft and it cannot be “controlled”. Farther:
              ... when the shut-off valve opens, the vapor pressure in the cylinder is zero, steam begins to flow into the cylinder, and the pressure in it begins to increase at a speed determined by the vapor pressure at the PM inlet and throttle position.

              The pressure is non-zero, and is equal to the final pressure in the next cylinder, but let’s omit it - the volume is och. small, the rate of pressure rise is high, and as you say „the process of complexities (in dynamics)> What is more important is that after throttle (and mean at the entrance to the car) the pressure will not be as in front of it, but below (how much depends on the degree of its discovery) It is through it that the machine is controlled and it happens due to inlet steam pressure.
              PM rotational speed will be determined by the amount of steam entering the cylinder before the spool closes.

              From the exact opposite! The amount of steam received in one stroke (write "before closing the spool") is exactly the same and equal to the working volume of the cylinder, but the pressure of this steam (at the inlet and, respectively, at the outlet of the CVP: TsSD) is different, and depends on the opening of the throttle. Accordingly, the power (per clock cycle) is different.
              If we consider not one cycle, but let's say in 1min. then again not "PM rotation speed will be determined by the amount of steam", and the amount of steam (passing through the machine) will depend on the speed of rotation, which will depend on many factors (... load ...) but controlled and controlling of them pressure steam before PM (degree of reduction)!
              Of course, when the ship goes for a long time at low speed, the pressure is reduced even in boilers. Then the throttle can be completely open, but this does not change the essence - the PM is controlled through the vapor pressure in front of it. Therefore, the greatest economy (per hp / hour) is at full power.
              Let's go back to the Varyag's car. Volumes of cylinders B; Wed and Low pressure can be adjusted for max. power, respectively, the pressure drops may not turn out so good for partial loads. However, I cannot imagine a PM in which the LPC piston would move from the crankshaft, and not vice versa. The incoming steam pressure will always be higher than the outgoing one (which is generally very small <0,1 atm.) So this (the piston moved from the shaft) is rather an artistic device. However, it is true that too little force from this piston (LP) disturbs the balance of the machine, causes uneven loading of the crankshaft along the length, which can affect the shaft bearings.
              Figuratively speaking, so that they could go fast on Varyag, they had to go always quickly :)))
              I understand))) Regards: anzar
              1. +2
                27 June 2018 17: 41
                Quote: anzar
                Figuratively speaking, so that they could go fast on Varyag, they had to go always fast :)))

                It would be difficult to formulate more precisely :)))
  15. +4
    24 June 2018 22: 44
    Andrey, thanks, everything is very interesting, but ...

    Reading your article, I also doubted that the Varyag cars were already in very poor condition. As Victor already noted here, the Japanese, after lifting and repairing, introduced him to the fleet. Not only this, after the start of World War I, the Russian government bought from the Japanese and the Varyag, among other ships. So how bad were his cars if the two states used the services of this cruiser at different times.

    With respect and gratitude. hi
    1. +2
      24 June 2018 23: 38
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Reading your article, I also doubted that the Varyag cars were already in very poor condition.

      Well, we have the verdict of the engineer who was brought in to repair them :)))) As for the discussion in the comments, it is more aimed not at denying the problems themselves, but at finding who is to blame for them :)))
      Quote: Sea Cat
      So how bad were his cars if the two states used the services of this cruiser at different times.

      I already explained this in the comments above. The bottom line is that the machine itself was not any super-faulty, but needed a complete factory overhaul with complete disassembly, correction of all deficiencies and assembly and adjustment. The PA simply did not have such an opportunity - and the Japanese did it
  16. +1
    25 June 2018 03: 46
    Quote: Royalist
    Answered point by point and exhaustively

    The author simply does not understand what he is writing about because of his technical ignorance and therefore has mixed up everything that could be mixed up, for example. longitudinal and lateral strength of the body, etc. etc.
    1. +1
      25 June 2018 07: 03
      Yes Yura, yes. The fact that the author at the same time refers to the engineer of the shipbuilder and the engineer for setting up steam engines is nonsense. In the entire history of mankind, one person was technically educated - it is you.
      1. +1
        25 June 2018 07: 26
        You are trying to prove your postulates, quotes about completely different things, without completely understanding this and confusing everything, due to the lack of technical education.
        1. +1
          25 June 2018 11: 34
          Yura, our dialogue with you went according to the usual scenario. I immediately dealt with your "argumentation", now you will swear for a long time that I am not a techie :))))) Not tired?
          1. 0
            26 June 2018 11: 49
            You dealt with unknown, see my answer above.
  17. +3
    25 June 2018 11: 26
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Reading your article, I also doubted that the Varyag cars were already in very poor condition.

    Well, we have the verdict of the engineer who was brought in to repair them :)))) As for the discussion in the comments, it is more aimed not at denying the problems themselves, but at finding who is to blame for them :)))
    Quote: Sea Cat
    So how bad were his cars if the two states used the services of this cruiser at different times.

    I already explained this in the comments above. The bottom line is that the machine itself was not any super-faulty, but needed a complete factory overhaul with complete disassembly, correction of all deficiencies and assembly and adjustment. The PA simply did not have such an opportunity - and the Japanese did it


    Thank you, Andrey. I seem to understand, but still some kind of "dregs" in the story with the machines "Varyag" remains. hi
    1. +2
      25 June 2018 11: 37
      So let's take our time - we have a lot of interesting things ahead for cars and boilers :)))) For example - the history of their operation :)))
      1. +1
        25 June 2018 13: 49
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        So let's take our time - we have a lot of interesting things ahead for cars and boilers :)))) For example - the history of their operation :)))


        It will be very interesting to read, especially compare with the actions of the British in relation to the cauldrons of Nikloss and Belleville in 1898 - 1900.
  18. +2
    25 June 2018 12: 37
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    So let's take our time - we have a lot of interesting things ahead for cars and boilers :)))) For example - the history of their operation :)))


    Oh, if I still understood anything in this mechanics ... wink

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