The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 10. Night

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In previous articles, we examined the reasons why Russian stationary soldiers, the cruiser Varyag and the gunboat Koreyets were not entitled, and physically could not somehow effectively interfere with the force of the Japanese landing at Chemulpo. Let us now consider the variant around which many copies were broken on the margins of the Internet battles of amateur historians - the night breakthrough of the “Varyag”.

To do this, let us recall the chronology of those distant events, from the moment they left the Korean Koreans raid in the second half of January 26 and the night from January 26 to January 27:

15.40 - The Koreon gunboat is anchored to go to Port Arthur;

15.55 - A Japanese squadron is seen on the Koreans;

16.35 - “Korean” is deployed in order to return to Port Arthur, and during the circulation is attacked by a torpedo. On the ship struck alarm;

16.37 (tentatively) A second torpedo was fired on the ship. The commander of canlodka G.P. Belyaev ordered to open fire, but immediately canceled his order, nevertheless, two shots from the 37-mm cannon were fired;

16.40-16.50 (tentatively) - Chiyoda and Takatiho entered the Chemulpo raid;

16.55 "Korean" anchored on Chemulpo raid, in 2,5 cable on the stern of "Varyag";

16.55-17.05 (tentatively) four Japanese destroyers of the 9 squad enter the raid and occupy the positions - Aotaka and Hari in 500 from Varyag and Koreyts, respectively, Hato and Tsubame - hiding behind foreign ships, but in full readiness to attack. "Chiyoda" took a position closer to the city pier, on the place where the transports were supposed to go. Where the Takachiho was located, the author of this article, unfortunately, does not know, presumably his position was between the marina and the Varyag. At about the same time, G.P. Belyaev arrived to report on the "Varyag". That is, V.F. Rudnev found out about the Koreyts mine attack almost simultaneously with his approach to the position of Japanese destroyers.

I must say that the sources in the descriptions of how the ships stood on the Chemulpo road, have significant differences. For example, in many cases it is indicated that two Japanese destroyers hid behind foreign stationary forces, but, for example, V. Kataev gives a scheme according to which all four Japanese destroyers of the 9 squad stood opposite Varyag and Koreyets



On the other hand, the diagram shows “Naniwa”, about which it is reliably known that on the night from 26 to 27 in January she was not in the raid, but about. Phalmido It must be said that usually maneuvering ships is one of the most controversial aspects stories wars at sea - it often happens that when comparing the maneuvering schemes of a single battle that were drawn by the parties involved in it, it often seems that we are talking about two completely different battles, therefore, to be surprised at such discrepancies, or to look for some hidden meaning is completely unnecessary;

17.05-17.10 - Assam, Naniwa, Niitaka, Akashi and assault forces are entering the Chemulpo raid. "Asama" took a position in 27 cable south of "Varyag", thereby controlling both Russian stationers and the entrance to the Chemulpo raid. The remaining three cruisers make a "lap of honor", bypassing the raid around the perimeter of the anchorage;

A small remark: so, by the time Japanese transports appeared on the raid, the Varyag and Koreets were already “under the supervision” of two destroyers, located 2,5 cable from Russian ships, and they could come to their aid at any time two. The transports entered the raid, escorted by four cruisers and immediately went to the pier, where they were under the cover of "Chiyoda" and "Takachiho." The three other armored Japanese cruisers, leaving the transports, moved along the raid, that is, in order to start acting, they did not even need to anchor or unfasten the anchor chain. While the transports were moving toward the marina, the main artillery “argument” of Sotokichi Uriu, the Asama armored cruiser, took an excellent position. It is not known whether this was a deliberate decision of the Japanese commander, but the distance of 27 cable separating the Russian stationers from the Asama was optimal for the armored cruiser. On the one hand, the Asama’s commandos at such a distance would easily shoot at targets anchored, and even if V.F. Rudnev set in motion, he could not quickly develop high speed, remaining a good target. At the same time, high-explosive shells of the Japanese would inflict terrible damage on the “Varyagu” and “Korean” not having armored protection of the sides and guns. At the same time, all Asama’s vulnerabilities (engine and boiler rooms, 152 mm and 203 mm guns, etc.) on 27 cable were perfectly protected from the Varyag and Koreits armor-piercing shells: the main armor belt , the casemates and towers of the Japanese ship were protected by 152-178 mm Harvey armor, equivalent in armor resistance to approximately 129-151 mm Krupp armor. At the same time, on 27 cable armor penetration of a 152 mm Russian projectile was 50-55 mm from a force, 203 mm was hardly more than 100 mm. And Asama was very well protected from high-explosive shells, much better than Russian ships, and not to mention the fact that, due to the scanty content of explosives in the shells, we can probably say that there were no high-explosive shells on the Varyag in general, but there were two varieties of armor-piercing ... However, the latter is known to us, and officers of the Russian Imperial fleet, alas, they did not know then.

Of course, in such conditions, the attempt of the Russian stationaries to fight could not lead to any success - there is no doubt that if they tried to open fire, both the Varyag and Koreets would be instantly destroyed by torpedoes of the destroyers and the concentrated fire of the Japanese cruisers. And there was no reason to open fire - the incident with the “Korean” was resolved safely for Russian sailors, but St. Petersburg was to decide whether to use it as a “casus belli” or not. It would seem that everything is clear here and there is no place for ambiguous interpretations: nevertheless, some dear readers of “VO” do not agree with this.

They reproach VF Rudnev, that he did not rush to prepare the cruiser for battle, just from the Koreans reported on the appearance of the Japanese squadron that the cruiser should be kept under steam, that the Koreans should be immediately reported that the Japanese were attacking him, that the torpedo attack was a declaration of war, and, if so, the Varyag should have immediately fought with the Japanese ships entering the raid. Well, let's suppose for a second that the attack of the Koreytsa can be considered the beginning of a war (this is not true, but let's assume). What should the actions of “Varyag” be in this case, if its commander had decided to fight?

Unfortunately, those who adhere to the above point of view usually forget one small detail. The fact is that the Koreets was attacked outside of neutral waters, and the cruiser Varyag was on a neutral raid. That is, even if a war broke out between the Russians and the Japanese, Varyag still did not have the right to fight in the Chemulpo raid. It would be a violation of the neutrality of Korea, which meant nothing, but it would endanger the foreign stationary personnel standing there, which meant a lot. The problem was that the Japanese, attacking the Korean, were, in general, in their own right - if they were guilty of something, it was only that they began fighting without declaring war. However, they did not violate any maritime laws and customs relating to the neutrality of third countries. But if the "Varyag" opened fire, it would be a gross violation. Thus, if Varyag found it possible to begin hostilities, he should not open fire on the Japanese, until he leaves the raid. Do I have to explain that, having entered the fairway, the Varyag would have driven itself into a trap, since there it would have become an excellent target for destroyers who could accompany him from the moment the Varyag was removed from the anchor unhindered (neutral raid!) And that the best way to uselessly destroy the cruiser, probably, did not exist? It would have been somehow even more justified if, by sinking the cruiser, it was possible to block the fairway leading to Chemulpo. But he was not so narrow - the death of "Varyag" on the fairway would at best complicate the movement of ships and vessels, but could not stop it.

At the same time, the Varyag commander was prohibited from hindering the landing of the Japanese troops. Accordingly, V.F. Rudnev, accepting the report of G. B. Belyaev, ordered Varyag and Koreans to be ready to repel a mine attack, which he confined himself to - and was absolutely right about that. Realizing that the Japanese would not attack his ships on a neutral raid, Vsevolod Fyodorovich tried to act by diplomatic means. What came out of this, we will still consider, and now we will return to chronology:

17.30 - The landing has begun. It must be said that landing troops directly on the pier did not allow depth, so three Japanese vehicles (and not four, as indicated in some sources) arose about two miles from the coastline. Each transport had on board specially prepared barges, with the help of which the soldiers were transported to the shore. In this they were helped by steam boats brought to Chemulpo in advance, and the boats of the Japanese who lived in this city. At about the same time (or, perhaps, a little later), the three Japanese armored cruisers completed their “circle of honor” in the raid and split up - Akashi joined Chiodo and Takachiho guarding the transports, and Naniwa and “Niitaka” left the raid and went to the east of Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi), thus standing between the islands of Phalmido and Herido;

In addition, I would like to note a certain discrepancy in the sources: for example, in the “Work of the Historical Commission” it is indicated that the landing of troops began only in 19.20. Perhaps this should be explained by the fact that 17.30 is the time to start preparation for landing, that is, the launch of barges, the approach of steam boats, etc., while 19.20 is the beginning of the actual crossing of troops. You can also assume something else - the fact is that the Japanese in their sources give time along the Kyoto meridian, that is, their own Japanese, while the Russians use local time - in the case of Chemulpo, the difference is 34 minutes. Because of this, there is confusion in some works, if suddenly someone mistakenly uses Japanese and Russian time to describe events;

18.40 - “Naniwa” and “Takachiho” met at Fr. Phalmido with the destroyers of the 14 squad;

The armored cruiser “Asama” left the Chemulpo raid after sunset and joined the “Naniwa” and “Niitake”. Unfortunately, the exact time of his departure from the raid is unknown;

02.30 (January 27) - The landing of the amphibious assault is complete. Total landed 3 000 soldiers;

05.45 - Two of the three Japanese transports, the Dayren-Maru and the Otaru-Maru, completed loading of the landing craft;

06.00 - Dairen-Maru and Otaru-Maru were removed from the anchor and went to Asanman Bay. (Again, “The Work of the Historical Commission” indicates that this happened in 05.15). The third transport, Heidze-Maru, was delayed in settling economic affairs and left the raid only on 10.00;

07.00 - “Takachiho”, “Akashi” and 9-th detachment of destroyers left the Chemulpo raid and went to Fr. Phalmido At the same time, the commander of the last remaining Japanese crew ship Chiyoda arrived on the British cruiser Talbot in order to notify his commander, Commodore Bailey, about the start of hostilities between Russia and Japan;

09.23 "Chiyoda" left Chemulpo raid. After just a few hours, “Varyag” and “Korean” will engage in battle with the Japanese squadron.



As a matter of fact, only the above data perfectly characterizes the complete impossibility of the night breakthrough of the “Varyag” and the “Korean”, or, if you like, one “Varyag” without the “Korean”. One could discuss this as some kind of theoretical option based on post-knowledge, but only under one condition - that on the night of the breakthrough the Japanese squadron would concentrate somewhere near the entrance to the fairway on the Chemulpo raid, for example, on the island of Herido, or Phalmido. But the fact is that “Varyag” and “Koreyets” essentially stood all night under the supervision of Japanese destroyers, who could easily torpedo them still standing, while trying to remove from the anchor (which could not be done at once), and about what breakthrough can we talk at all? Nevertheless, in order to avoid any understatement, we will now analyze in detail the information that Vsevolod Fyodorovich Rudnev possessed in the evening of January 26 and on the night of January 27, and consider whether he, or any other commander in his place, could decision to breakthrough.

So what actually happened on January 26 on 1904? The Japanese were obviously going to disembark at Chemulpo, if it was a freelance, then in any case the situation envisaged by the order. V.F. Rudnev had clear instructions on this: do not interfere. However, at the same time an extraordinary event happened - the Korean was attacked, however, the Japanese did not achieve anything and did not try to continue the fighting. In this situation, the commander of "Varyag" orders to be ready to repel the attack, while he himself is trying to deal with what happened - through diplomatic channels. In other words, Vsevolod Fedorovich goes to the senior Chemulpo in the roadstead - Commodore Bailey, the commander of the Talbot cruiser and has a conversation with him. According to the results of the negotiations, the Englishman immediately goes to negotiations with the Japanese, and then visits the cruiser Varyag, where VF tells. Rudnev on their results. And here comes one ... let's say, a very controversial episode. Question one - to whom did the British Commodore go? The “Work of the Historical Commission” states that Bailey visited Naniwa and had a conversation with Rear Admiral Uriu, while Japanese sources irrefutably testify that Bailey arrived at Takachiho and spoke with his commander, Mori Itibee. Apparently, such a discrepancy occurred due to an incorrect interpretation: we re-read again, like V.F. Rudnev describes Commodore Bailey’s words:

“I came as the senior commander of the ships on the roads, to you as the senior Japanese commander, to warn you:

1. We are standing on the raid of the nation, which declared neutrality, therefore, the raid is absolutely neutral and no one has the right to shoot or mine anybody. I declare to you that the ship that will do this, no matter what nation, I will start shooting first. (The Japanese were extremely surprised, even asked: “How will you shoot at us? - Yes, I will, since I’m completely ready to open fire”);

2. You must make an order according to your detachment and make it known. (The Japanese agreed, but asked: “What if the Russians start firing?”. The English commander reiterated his commitment to take responsibility for the ships of the international squadron);

3. You must allow all boats to the shore, where there should be no obstacles to disembark;

4. You can land the troops, as this is your business and does not concern us;

5. In case of a misunderstanding with any nation, I ask you to come to my ship, I will invite the commander of the same nation and will deal with it myself;

In conclusion, when asked by the commander about shooting mines at Koreans, the Japanese replied that they did not know about the incident, that this was a misunderstanding and probably nothing even happened. ”


That is, Vsevolod Fyodorovich writes about the visit of an Englishman to the senior Japanese commander, and, probably, one of the Commission members decided that since among the Japanese the most senior was S. Uriu, then Bailey visited him. But “Naniwi” was not in the evening at Chemulpo’s raid, and besides, even if by some miracle he returned there, Commodore Bailey couldn’t refer to Sotokichi Uriu as “the senior commander of the ships who stood at the raid”, because in this case, the Japanese rear admiral would be senior.

And now let's see how the conversation with the British Commodore, in the opinion of the Japanese side. To do this, we study the report of the captain of 1 rank Mori Itibee to his immediate commander Sotokichi Uriu, which was written by the commander of "Takachiho":

"In 21.00 8 February (26 January old style, auth.) On the" Takachiho "arrived commander of the English cruiser Talbot, who, as the eldest in the raid foreign ships, told me the following:" I am sure that you respect the neutrality of the port Incheon (Chemulpo) and you will not open fire here or take any other actions that would pose a threat to the ships of foreign powers located here. ” In response, I assured him that as long as the Russian ships did not take hostile actions against us in the raid, there was no threat to foreign ships. The English commander asked me: "For what reason did your torpedoes launch a torpedo attack of the Russian ship Korets today and did this information correspond to reality?" I replied that I still do not have accurate information on this subject and cannot confirm whether it was in fact or not. He did not say a word and did not ask about the landing of our troops, but only expressed the hope that the presence of our troops in Inchon would not be the reason for any unrest or misunderstanding. At the end of the conversation, the commander of the English cruiser stressed that there were close friendly relations between Japan and England, which must continue to be strengthened. After that, he left our ship and went to the “Varyag” to meet with his commander, after which he passed through the officer sent to him from “Takachiho”: “The commander of the“ Varyag ”categorically stated that in order to avoid any incidents, he does not intend in any way to prevent the landing of the Japanese troops. ”


As we can see, the report by Mori Itibee is far more different than VF’s description of this conversation. Rudnev. Consequently, someone here is obviously cunning, but who exactly? To do this, we recall the famous Latin dictum "Is fecit cui prodest" ("Made the one who benefits"). So, was there any reason for the commander of "Takachiho" to somehow alter the words of Commodore Bailey? Yes, it did not happen at all, because relations with England were extremely important to Japan, and therefore Mori Itibee should have conveyed the meaning of his conversation with the English commander to Sotokichi Uriu as authenticly as possible. Therefore, we can safely assume that the Japanese captain of the 1 rank does not lie. Remains V.F. Rudnev and Commodore Bailey: But the question is, why would Vsevolod Fedorovich pervert the words of the British commander?

In essence, the report from M. Itibee shows the following: the Japanese commander assures Bailey that unless the Russians open fire first, then no battle will take place, and that the incident with the Korean is some kind of mistake. Such a statement underlines the correctness of the VF decision. Rudnev - in accordance with the orders he received, the landing of the Japanese in Chemulpo should not be hindered and not amenable to provoke the Japanese. In other words, if Bailey had conveyed exactly to V.F. Rudnev, the content of the conversation, then Vsevolod Fedorovich had no reason to somehow embellish its content.

But Commodore Bailey ... oh, that's another thing. Strictly speaking, the British had many interests in this matter. First - England, in fact, was an unofficial ally of Japan, so Bailey tried to help the Japanese. If someone doubts this thesis, then it is enough to read the text of the urgent message on Naniwa, which was made by captain of the 1 rank Murakami after visiting Telbot on 22.30 on January 26: “According to information received from the commander of the English cruiser, 8 February (26 of January) the Russian ships "Koreyets" went out from the anchorage to go to Port Arthur. In addition, the English commander said that there is information that the ship “Sungari” was loaded with secret documents of the Russian diplomatic mission in Korea and at February 10 on the morning of February 9 (January 27) this ship should leave the raid and go to Port Arthur ". That is, in fact, the brave Commodore was spying for the Japanese.

Secondly, of course, the commander of Talbot was extremely interested in the Japanese not doing any harm to British interests, and not spoiling relations with the powers whose stationary officers were present at Chemulpo raid. Japan was seen by the British as a force capable of crushing Russian sea power in the Far East, and the British did not need at all that this force was somehow hampered by scandals with the United States, France or Italy. Accordingly, Bailey’s tasks were as follows:

1. Assist S. Uriu in achieving his goals (unimpeded landing of troops), provided that they do not do anything bad for Europeans in Korea;

2. Do not allow shooting on the roadstead, during which someone from foreign stationery could suffer.

In this case, of course, Bailey could not be aware of the orders of VF. Rudnev, prohibiting the latter to interfere with the Japanese landing. And now let's see what exactly turned out to be embellished in the presentation of the conversation of Bailey and the commander of "Takachiho" in the statement of V.F. Rudneva:

1. Bailey appears in her as an indomitable champion of the neutrality of Chemulpo’s raid, ready to shoot at anyone who breaks it. That is, he will not even regret his Japanese ally (hint: what can we say about the Russian cruiser!);

2. Bailey allegedly specifically agreed with the Japanese commander that he did not consider the landing of Japanese troops a violation and would not accept it as a pretext for opening fire ("You can land the troops, since this is your business and does not concern us").

Another aspect of interest is that there was no exaggeration regarding the torpedo attack of the Korean. But the fact is that by informing Vsevolod Fedorovich exactly the words of the Japanese commander, Bailey also demonstrated his position on this incident: it’s all that needs to be clarified, and in general it is a dark matter, and maybe nothing at all happened. That is, the English Commodore made it clear to V.F. Rudnev, that he does not consider the actions of the Japanese against the "Korean" to be any "casus belli", and will not accept them as an excuse for any aggressive actions of the Russian stationary. With all this, naturally, Commodore Bailey did not express his own personal position, but spoke like a full-fledged representative of Foggy Albion - that is, in fact, he brought to the notice of the Russian commander the official position of England, which she would take in the unfolding events. .

Of course, we can not say for sure that it was Bailey who perverted the negotiations with the commander of "Takachiho". But we see that those “exaggerations” that VF recorded. Rudnev, in his report and in his memoirs, fits perfectly into the goals that the Talbot commander could and should pursue. And because such a hypothesis looks closest to the truth.

And now let's try to take the place of Vsevolod Fedorovich Rudnev, when he had to decide on the actions of his ships for the next night. The Japanese attacked the Korean with torpedoes, but why and why? There was no declaration of war, and the Japanese did not report such a thing. The commander of "Takachiho" also did not clarify this issue. It is possible that this was an attempt to destroy the "Korean", while no one sees it. But maybe this is really some kind of mistake, for example, caused by the fact that the “Korean” and the Japanese transports with the landing force were too close to each other?

In other words, the situation was completely unclear. Whether the Japanese have already decided to go to war with Russia, and now they were just waiting for the chance to destroy the Russian ships, not daring, however, to do it in a neutral raid. Either the Japanese were not at all looking for an open conflict with the Russian Empire, and the situation with the attack of the “Korean” is only a consequence of the nervousness of the performers. They had to worry: if, for example, S. Uriu received an order to land troops in Korea, he could not help but understand that it was a violation of her neutrality, and who knows how the Russians will behave in this situation? The situation was tense, and perhaps the Japanese destroyers just lost their nerves?

Of course, this kind of “mistakes” cannot simply be “unleashed on the brakes”; one cannot allow other ships to fire torpedoes at our ships with impunity. But, as we said earlier, in such cases, the “leadership of the country” was to determine the “measure of punishment” in such cases.

So, either the Japanese land troops in Korea, but the war with us does not want, or they are already fighting with us, we just do not know. If the first is true, and the Japanese want only to protect their transports from possible encroachments on the Russians, then no special actions from V.F. Rudnev is not required because nothing threatened his ships on the roadstead and he had orders to the Japanese not to interfere. But the attempt to leave could lead to an unnecessary collision, because the movement of Russian ships could be misinterpreted by the Japanese, and provoke them to attack. But even if it would be possible to leave, how would it look from the outside? The Japanese did not look for fights with the Russians, but the station commanders were so afraid of only one kind of Japanese warships that they fled at night in panic, leaving their diplomatic mission?

In other words, if we assume (we are still on the site of Vsevolod Fedorovich) that the Japanese were only going to land the troops, but not to fight with Russia, then VF Rudnev did not win anything at all, attempting to leave Chemulpo raid at night. Well, if this is still a war, and the only thing that still keeps Sotokichi Uriu from an attack by open force is the presence of foreign stationary in the raid?



Well, then the position of the Russian ships was worth describing as hopeless. "Varyag" and "Koreyets" are anchored by the Japanese destroyers, who not only were located at a distance that did not allow to miss the anchored ship, but with the onset of darkness, they directed their torpedo tubes at Russian stationary. This fact is confirmed by Japanese memoirs, one of the staff officers S. Uriu, captain of 3 rank Moriyama Kaysaburo, recalled: "On Russian ships after our destroyers stood in front of them, and in the evening they turned the torpedo tubes in their direction, they spent the whole night in dismay without closing my eyes. " In this case, any attempt to withdraw anchor at night will lead to an immediate attack. But what if the Japanese commanders nevertheless decide to respect the "neutrality of the Chemulpo raid" and do not begin to open fire first? But the four 9 squadrons that were seen on the raid of the destroyer simply go along with the Varyag and the Koreans to exit from the raid, and outside neutral waters, they will immediately destroy them at the exit of the fairway torpedoes. And if, after this attack, someone goes to the bottom not as quickly as the loyal subjects of the Mikado would like, then the artillery of “Assam” “Naniwa” and “Niytaki”, of course, will quickly finish the job.

Well, what happens if "Varyag", spitting on Bailey's warning, starts the battle first? Raise the pair, in the hope that the Japanese destroyers do not attack right away, but will wait until the Russians give way. Rivet anchor chains to give this very course as quickly as possible. And - even before the Varyag and the Koreyets move from their places, bring down a hail of shells from all the guns standing next to the destroyer. Aotaka and Hari were relatively small destroyers, with a normal tonnage of 152 tonnes - theoretically, dagger fire at close range (500 meters!) Could crush them and send them to the bottom so quickly that the latter wouldn’t have time to use torpedoes, though it would be very small. And then ... Then it remained only to pray to Nicholas the Wonderworker that the second pair of Japanese destroyers did not have time to catch up with the Russian ships heading for the exit from the raid, or so that they could sink these two destroyers, shooting them while leaving, having managed not to get a random projectile to foreign stationary against which the Japanese will attack. Praying that the commanders of “Asama” (that this cruiser had left after sunset, on the Varyag) did not know) would oversleep everything and would not open fire on the desperately firing Russians - and that alone would be enough to stop both Russian ship. In general, even if a uniform miracle happened, and Varyag and Koreans could somehow deal with the Japanese destroyers of the 9 squad, they would not have had a chance to break through Asama, and even Suddenly it was possible - then, at the exit from the fairway, Naniwa and Niytaka would be waiting for them, and who knows how many destroyers would be with them? These Japanese ships did not even have to compete with the Varyag in the relics of artillery - it was enough to hear a cacophony on the roadstead, to send several destroyers to the fairway from Fr. Phalmido, who would have destroyed the "Varyag" and "Koreyets" torpedoes, while they walked in the dark and in narrowness.

In general, in short, there were no chances for a night break (based on the information that VF Rudnev had). Given what we know today - it was not even more so. Yes, “Asama” actually left the raid, joining “Naniwa” and “Niytaka” between the islands of Herido and Phalmido, but the 14 unit of the destroyers, who was quite capable of “taking warm ones” and “Varyag”, also came there, and "Korean" right on the fairway. Usually, the alternatives of the Varyag nightbreak are reduced to that recipe to quietly separate couples, enter the fairway, give it a full turn to the 23 node, and then slip past the peaceful Japanese squadron - and then look for the wind in the field. Usually, after dubbing the aforesaid, calculations of the speed with which the Varyag could go along the fairway begin, disputes what maximum speed it can develop ...

But in fact, there are two completely immutable facts that kill a similar alternative in the bud. Fact one: Chemulpo “Varyag” could not escape without shooting except under an escort of four Japanese destroyers, and this is only if the latter did not attack the Russians right away, that is, due to circumstances beyond the control of Russian sailors. But in this case, the Varyag and Koreets would have been destroyed when leaving the fairway, or maybe directly on it, because the flooding of both Russian ships would not block access to Chemulpo, but only to a certain degree made it difficult. The second fact is that the Japanese were not asleep at all - in fact, Sotokichi Uriu was afraid not only of “Varyag” with “Korean”, but also of the approach of additional Russian forces from Port Arthur. Therefore, the ships he had withdrawn from the raid to the island of Phalmido were not so much locked up by our stationary personnel at Chemulpo, as they were preparing to fight with possible Russian reinforcements. It is clear that with such initial data, there are no “peacefully sleeping Japanese crews”, on ships “with undiluted fire in the boilers” and “not ready to break the anchor” was not and could not be.

And, finally, in the case of the start of firing on the raid, Russian ships would be accused of violating neutrality. Of course, the launch of torpedoes is not silent - in the torpedo tubes of those years they were thrown out by a special powder expelling charge, but it gave far less noise than a gunshot and almost did not give a flash. So even if Varyag really opened fire after it was attacked by a Japanese destroyer (for example, while shooting from the anchor), then and then, with almost 100% probability, the senior officer in the raid Commodore Bailey “Appointed” guilty VF Rudneva. And if at the same time, and God forbid, one of the stationaries would suffer, then the actions of the commander of the Varyag could lead to extreme diplomatic complications (up to the war) with the injured power.

Thus, we see that the attempt at night breakthrough:

1. Could not be successful;

2. It could easily have led to a completely useless loss of Russian ships with minimal damage to the Japanese, or without it at all;

3. It would most likely lead to diplomatic complications.

Thus, the nightly breakthrough had no benefits over the daytime, and was, in fact, the worst alternative, because during the day, at least, it was possible to leave the raid and not fear an international incident.

Articles from this series:

The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904
The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. Part of 2. But why Crump?
The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. Part of 3. Boilers niklossa
The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. Part of 4. Steam engines
The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. Part of 5. Supervisory Commission
The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 6. Across the oceans
The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 7. Port arthur
The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 8. Korean neutrality
The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 9. Out "Korean"
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  1. +4
    20 August 2018 04: 51
    Yeah ... Hope of crystal clear purity looms ...
    1. Cat
      +6
      20 August 2018 06: 20
      Andrei was not convinced on the issue of a night break!
      Too many components.
      The same Korean, according to the scheme given by you, could create a threat to the ram of destroyers. Having provoked the Japanese. Well, the meaning is to crush the water in the mortar.
      But to be fair, Rudnev was cornered not only by the Japanese and British, but also by his leadership.
      The British, without batting an eye, used a rank 2 cruiser, headed by a commander, as a stationer, which prevented us from having a stationary clipper led by an admiral. No ambition. Ultimately, a tactical loss.
      These are the little things that the war loses.
      By the way, the Russo-Japanese War is full of examples of such trifles and from the side it looks like "they didn't make it there," "they didn't guess here," etc.
      The example of Minister Kuropatkin that stands, which, while on vacation in Japan - this is on the eve of the war, was convinced that she was not ready for the latter! What I convinced others ...
      1. avt
        +6
        20 August 2018 07: 57
        Quote: Kotischa
        Andrei was not convinced on the issue of a night break!

        bully I believe! Yes, how many "bukov" he writes, everything is one
        Quote: Kotischa
        Too many components.

        bully Although now even the subconscious breaks out
        Quote: Kotischa
        But to be fair, Rudnev was cornered not only by the Japanese and British, but also by his leadership.

        But all one, the "battles" in the World of Ship prove that Rudnev could have drowned everyone and left, even
        Quote: Kotischa
        The same Korean, according to the scheme given by you, could create a threat to the ram of destroyers.

        Well, well, let .... throw out everything written by Andrei and leave only one conclusion
        3. It would most likely lead to diplomatic complications.
        Well, is it really not clear that this is actually a Bailey incident, and in the bottom line - the commander of the stationary unleashes a war in spite of all orders and directives of the top leadership, which in every possible way AVOID being the first to start hostilities! ??? Well, no - again the song is sung - Rudnev had to get something off, right up to the ramming of destroyers by the "Korean"! I give another option - I had to send the Japanese "Songhua" as a firebreaker to the transports! wassat bully
        1. +1
          20 August 2018 13: 45
          The style and content of your comments on various articles by Andrey suggests that you are here (on the forum) playing the role of his spokesperson.
          1. avt
            +2
            20 August 2018 16: 29
            Quote: Oleg Fudin
            You are here (on the forum) acting as his spokesperson.

            bully
            But because Kolya Taraskin is a young isho. And then Kolya Taraskin does not know the six rules of Gleb Zheglov
            Our comments
            Quote: Oleg Fudin
            to various articles

            express our personal opinion on these articles. What you can see in the archive of the site. At the same time you can see our discussion with him about Admiral Rozhestvensky.
      2. +6
        20 August 2018 09: 27
        The British without batting an eye as a stationary used the 2 cruiser ranked headed by the commander

        Colleague, "Eclipses" are only slightly smaller than our six-thousanders. If the Talbot were in our fleet, it would be a rank XNUMX cruiser.
      3. +1
        20 August 2018 18: 46
        The namesake, all life consists of little things and tolerances. In the fantasy order: in Chemulpo it was necessary to put some old mine-destroyer stationary, and the commander of at least the governor Admiralv Alekseyev, and even better, Emperor Nikolai 2 would certainly be the senior in the raid
        1. +1
          20 August 2018 19: 00
          Quote: vladcub
          The namesake, all life consists of little things and tolerances. In the fantasy order: in Chemulpo it was necessary to put some old mine-destroyer stationary, and the commander of at least the governor Admiralv Alekseyev, and even better, Emperor Nikolai 2 would certainly be the senior in the raid

          "Dzhigit" with V.K. Cyril as commander. For it is not a pity. smile
          1. Cat
            +1
            20 August 2018 20: 09
            The namesake, all life consists of little things and tolerances. In the fantasy order: in Chemulpo it was necessary to put some old mine-destroyer stationary, and the commander of at least the governor Admiral Alekseev, and even better, Emperor Nikolai 2 would certainly be the senior in the raid

            Good evening comrade! I understand everything, history has no syllable, but dreaming is not harmful - it’s harmful not to dream!
            Dzhigit "with VK Kirill as commander. For it is not a pity.

            All hands and feet for! And I think that VK Kirill, in contrast to Rudnev, would have promptly "unscrewed" from the raid. The latter still had the same chuika!
            Yours!
  2. +3
    20 August 2018 09: 24
    Oh, at first Kramp and Nikloss raked his own, and now Rudnev is about to form a halo smile
    Andrey is meticulous, as always, but somehow cleverly avoids slippery moments smile
    So, initially Rudnev knows that the situation is heating up, Korea has already stated that it will maintain neutrality in the event of a war between Russia and Japan.
    Then, even before the departure of the Korean, this worthy commander found out that a Japanese squadron was going to Chemulpo, the envoy informed of this.
    And what did he do? Nothing, there was no order to do anything. Well, there to separate couples at least. Or does he need a special decree from the father of the king?
    Further, the Korean semaphore about the appearance of the Japanese squadron - and what about Rudnev?
    Yes, the mustache does not blow.
    But what would happen if Rudnev took the initiative, was ready for battle, and moved closer to leaving the raid from pure caution and common sense? What did Uriu write in his order?
    Obviously, the Japanese could perceive the simultaneous movement of two Russian ships as a threat to the landing force, their nerves were not iron, as the case with the Korean showed and would start the battle there, on a crane unfavorable for themselves, with the threat of landing and the probability of the flooding of ships and ships on the fairway and restrictions on access to Chemulpo.
    But Rudnev did nothing of the kind.
    Could he, on his own initiative, attack the landing? No way.
    Many, it seems, do not quite correctly understand the word landing in the context of that time - this is not a landing with a battle, this is a usual landing on the shore of the military without any connection with the hostilities.
    There was a Russian landing on the shore, and a French one, and no one shot at anyone.
    Would a situation have arisen in which the Japanese began openly fighting before the landing allowed the Russians to try to prevent the landing if Rudnev took the initiative? With a high degree of probability, and everything would have gone differently.

    As for the content of the conversations with the Englishman, they are not fundamentally different - he gave guarantees that they would not shoot at the raid, and that the incident with the Korean was unclear, but would not happen again (and what could the Englishman say more?).

    Could Rudnev colorfully color the conversation with the Englishman? yes easy, he has a tendency to pictures in the report is observed
    ... There can be no question of surrender; we will not surrender either the cruiser or ourselves, fighting to the last opportunity and a drop of blood. Perform your duties accurately, calmly, without rushing, especially the commandants, remembering that each shell should harm the enemy. In case of fire, extinguish it without publicity, letting me know. Let us pray to God before the campaign and with firm confidence in the mercy of God we will go boldly into the battle for Faith, the Tsar and the Fatherland. Hooray".

    Music played a hymn.

    My words were met by an explosion of ardent enthusiasm.
    At 11 a.m. the cruiser anchored, having the boat “Korean” in the wake, and moved forward with music. Teams, guards and officers formed in front of foreign ships, the Italians played the Russian anthem, and at our passage everyone shouted “cheers” ...

    Did he have a reason to do this?
    It was quite possible and was, he wanted to emphasize emotionally that he could not prevent the landing of troops, since the British were ready to shoot even at the Japanese.
    In fact, there are no differences in the versions of the Japanese and Rudnev, they are only in minor details.
    The assurances of the Englishman that
    close relations exist between Japan and England

    it is an ordinary diplomatic protocol, especially since such relations existed.
    Read Uriu’s demand for the Russians leaving the port in polite, courteous terms.
    Could Rudnev go out at night or at the time of landing in the sea?
    And why couldn’t he, having warned the senior on the raid that it was coming out, moreover, at the time of the landing there was an ideal moment for this - the Japanese were busy, and again they would be afraid to shoot at the raid at that moment, as at night. Easy could.
    But there was no order to exit, as they say. Here's the question, and the next day the order appeared to go to sea or not? And how does it get in the way?
    The intrigue continues, we will wait for part 11 in the hope that something will certainly match the title of the cycle lol
    1. avt
      +1
      20 August 2018 09: 31
      Quote: Avior
      And what did he do? Nothing, there was no order to do anything. Well, there to separate couples at least. Or does he need a special decree from the father of the king?

      Well, this "stupid Rudnev" did not understand, but all that was necessary -
      King

      To us for the morning pickle
      The Aglitz ambassador arrived
      And in our house snacks -
      Humpbacks and mosol.

      Get ready, brother, on the road
      Get us something to eat -
      Capercaillie al partridge,
      Al isho anyone.

      Can't - who to blame? -
      I must execute you.
      State affair -
      Do you catch the thread? ..

      Fedot

      Well, I don’t understand.
      With mine, with my mind? ..
      Tea, do not bast bread with cabbage soup,
      I figure out what's what.

      It turns out on me
      All policies in the country:
      I won’t get a partridge -
      There is no doubt a war.
      1. +1
        20 August 2018 09: 55
        Rudnev was not a Sagittarius, but a high-ranking officer.
        To which the king the priest paid a good salary and entrusted the cruiser for 6 million gold rubles and several hundred people of the team.
        There should have been measures to take and respond.
        1. avt
          +1
          20 August 2018 10: 30
          Quote: Avior
          Rudnev was not a Sagittarius, but a high-ranking officer.

          wassat And that’s all that was taken out of the passage quoted!? Yes-ah -... Byala however ...
        2. 0
          23 August 2018 00: 29
          The officer, especially of high rank, is obliged to follow orders. And the only and understandable order was an order that forbade accepting anything that could lead to a provocation of the start of war. And the fact that the squadron is going somewhere is, forgive, not an argument for the beginning of the war, but only information for reflection. Rudnev would have been good if he (and Russia at the same time) had been declared the instigators of war. If you personally did not care about it, it didn’t matter what to blame him for, anyhow, just give your authoritative opinion to give a man a shit.
    2. +7
      20 August 2018 13: 07
      Quote: Avior
      But what would happen if Rudnev took the initiative, was ready for battle, and moved closer to leaving the raid from pure caution and common sense?

      In fact, there is no "pure caution" here, let alone "common sense". One afterthought that the Korean will be attacked by mines in the fairway and a fierce desire to immediately rush into battle :)))))))
      Quote: Avior
      Obviously, the Japanese could perceive the simultaneous movement of two Russian ships as a threat to the landing, their nerves are not iron, as the case with the Korean showed and would start the battle there, on a crane, conditions unfavorable for themselves

      It was in this case that the position of the Japanese was most advantageous. "Varyag" would have to climb into the strait with the destroyers "Chiodoi" and "Takachikho", which, having found the Russian cruiser directly at the entrance, and even under steam, would naturally have aimed at it. At the same time, the Russian cruiser would have had to go straight to the "Asama" :))) In general, I would give both Russian ships three minutes of life - at most.
      Quote: Avior
      Would a situation have arisen in which the Japanese began openly fighting before the landing allowed the Russians to try to prevent the landing if Rudnev took the initiative? With a high degree of probability, and everything would have gone differently.

      The phrase is unreadable, alas. However, if its meaning boils down to the fact that Rudnev also had to organize coastal defense, the forces of those one and a half people that were on land, and with a clear order to disembark the Japanese troops, do not interfere, then one thing can be stated - Sergey, I'm sorry, but your desire to send the Varangian into battle has long overtaken common sense :)))
      Quote: Avior
      As for the content of the conversations with the Englishman, in principle they do not differ-

      Oh how! M-yes ... I will not argue. Here, each reader is able to draw conclusions for himself - the texts are attached.
      Quote: Avior
      Could Rudnev go out at night or at the time of landing in the sea?
      Why couldn’t

      In general, the article says - why :)))))
      1. +1
        20 August 2018 23: 14
        Andrey, in my opinion, when evaluating Rudnev’s actions, it is necessary to separate the objective side of the issue and how Rudnev should have seen it, precisely because of our afterlife, you are right hi .
        And he, in my opinion, should have taken much more seriously in those conditions the fact that he knew that a Japanese squadron with goals unknown in advance would come to the raid.
        It is clear that he in no case should not open fire first, or go to Port Arthur, but he had to take the usual precautions — he would be ready for a possible battle, hold pairs, if necessary he would move closer to the exit from the raid, etc. this does not require an afterthought, ordinary caution is enough - he is not a romantic boy, but the commander of a rather expensive ship, with hundreds of subordinates.
        He could have gone to sea for a short time under a convenient pretext, for example, to check the cars or something else, because he understood that if anything, he would be trapped in such a port, it was not for nothing that he asked to leave, but a short exit to the sea gave more chances.
        This is what Rudnev should have done based on what he knew or could reasonably assume.
        What this would lead to is that we can now discuss with you, since we know what happened, I write about what he could do from the information he had.
        And he was unprepared for the arrival of the Japanese and for all the events that had occurred.
        Further, from the report of Rudnev himself, it is clear that he did not see a threat to the ship in the port when he tried to exit, otherwise he would have displayed it.
        And if Rudnev behaved as I wrote, it is not known how everything would turn out.
        For example, after the report of Commander Chioda, Uriu would decide to land in the bay, and not in the port.
        Or the Japanese’s nerves could not stand it and they would start a chaotic shootout at the exit from the raid, with the possible sinking of some ships and ships, including the landing, which would lead to the disruption of the operation.
        As for his possible complaints to the Englishman, if he saw real threats, he would still have addressed them, even if he thought that he would not take them into account, just to be safe for the future.
        By the way, why did you get the idea that Rudnev did not turn to the Englishman allegedly because of his indifferent attitude to complaints?
        Rudnev himself writes that the Englishman threatened the Japanese to open fire - wow indifference winked
    3. +1
      20 August 2018 19: 30
      "Could Rudnev color the conversation with the Englishmen" and what is the point of Rudnev to paint the conversation and show the "coolness" of the Britons: "The Japanese was extremely surprised. He even asked:" How, will you shoot at us. "And the Anglo-Saxons love to show off
      1. +1
        20 August 2018 22: 52
        he showed the determination of the British to shoot even the Japanese.
        But I do not consider this subtlety fundamental in any case.
        1. 0
          23 August 2018 00: 35
          he showed the determination of the British to shoot even the Japanese.
          This is if such a phrase was said at all. Japanese, in any case, does not report this. Yes, and the meaning of the Englishman when talking one-on-one with a strategic ally so bykovat? Most likely, the Japanese conveyed the text of the conversation with maximum accuracy. But before Rudnev that clearly flaunted.
  3. +1
    20 August 2018 09: 52
    Yes, and here's another thing about the fact that the Japanese threatened destroyers in the port, or could pursue at the exit, or stood in position and were ready to fire and torpedoes if the Varangian not only moves forward, but simply divorces the couple.
    If that was the case, where do we see Rudnev’s protests against the senior raid regarding the threatening actions of the Japanese?
    And about the alleged threat to his ship at the time of the landing and the night after him
    Rudnev wrote simply
    The night went quietly, although on all ships people slept at the guns.

    Rudnev was more interested than others in reflecting in the report all those horrors of the situationsmile which Andrei described in detail above. love
    But Rudnev didn’t notice anything. The terrible threat, go, was lol
    1. +3
      20 August 2018 13: 16
      Quote: Avior
      If that was the case, where do we see Rudnev’s protests against the senior raid regarding the threatening actions of the Japanese?

      It remains only to shrug. "Korean" was attacked by torpedoes, Bailey is purple, and Rudnev should complain that torpedo tubes were pointed at him? :)))) Logic went to rest on the Seychelles :)))
      Quote: Avior
      And about the alleged threat to his ship at the time of the landing and the night after him
      Rudnev wrote simply
      The night went quietly, although on all ships people slept at the guns.

      That's right. And what confused you here? :) What do you want to challenge?
      Quote: Avior
      Rudnev was more interested than others in reflecting in the report all those horrors of the smile situation that Andrei described in detail above. love
      But Rudnev didn’t notice anything.

      Poor owl :))))) First, you attributed to Rudnev posturing, but now you are upset that he does not behave in accordance with your expectations? :)
      1. +1
        20 August 2018 22: 51
        What Rudnev considered dangerous was primarily written in his report, and not in the books of various writers. And Rudnev himself does not see any threats in the raid to the ship, although he writes in sufficient detail about other things in the report.
        And Bailey is not a violet attack, he received the answer that if there was anything, then this is a misunderstanding, which he conveyed to Rudnev. Both considered this sufficient, Rudnev did not insist on other actions, and did not address other issues.
  4. +2
    20 August 2018 11: 13
    Dear Andrey, without disputing the general conclusions, for this time the text is too drawn. So for Rudnev the raid is "sacredly neutral", but it is absolutely impossible to wean the anchor "under the supervision of Japanese destroyers, which could easily torpedo them still standing, when trying to remove from anchor"For them, the raid is obviously Japanese)))
    Either he had no reason for oppression (the landing expected), then he was waiting for the torpedo immediately when trying to dream of anchoring. One or the other, but not both in the (expected) attempt to announce all Rudnev’s actions as the only possible and correct in those circumstances ...
    And even earlier, information from the same Talbot about the severance of diplomatic relations is "rumors", and then about the declaration of war and the ultimatum Uriu is "official"! What prevents Rudnev from saying, I am waiting for official information from my government (as I said before) and stay on the raid, and you do whatever you want.
    1. +3
      20 August 2018 12: 55
      Quote: anzar
      Either he had no reason for oppression (the landing expected), then he was waiting for the torpedo immediately when trying to dream of anchoring. Already one or the other

      so both options are taken apart. I understand that Russian is not your native language, so please read it again. The fact is that the article discusses the 2 version of the Japanese actions from the point of view of the Russian commander. If the Japanese are not ready to attack the cruiser in the raid, then there is no point trying to leave it. If you are ready, then such an attempt will lead to meaningless death of the ship
      1. +1
        20 August 2018 13: 55
        ... so please read it again ...

        I read (your options))
        1. If the Japanese are not ready to attack the cruiser in the raid, then there is no point in trying to leave it.

        The point is to save the cruiser. If this is not so, you would not separate so many phrases into arguments, how such a night breakthrough is "impossible"
        2. If ready, then such an attempt will lead to meaningless the death of the ship.

        And the next day, of course, "meaningful" will die ... (for Rudnev)) Ie. war, not declared, the Yapas are drowning the Varyag in the roadstead ... who will Talbot shoot at?
        1. +3
          20 August 2018 14: 42
          Quote: anzar
          The meaning is, save the cruiser.

          It's impossible.
          Quote: anzar
          If this is not so, you would not separate so many phrases into arguments as such a night breakthrough is "impossible"

          ??? :)))) I'm just justifying the impossibility of a night breakthrough, hence the "many letters".
    2. +2
      20 August 2018 13: 27
      Quote: anzar
      And even earlier, information from the same Talbot about the severance of diplomatic relations is "rumors", and then about the declaration of war and the ultimatum Uriu is "official"! What prevents Rudnev from saying - I'm waiting for official information from my government (as I said before) and stay on the raid, and you do whatever you want

      Well, stationers will leave the raid, and Varyag will be sunk at anchor. " do what you want"
  5. +1
    20 August 2018 13: 26
    Andrey, I think that supporters of a night breakthrough attach great importance to the fact that in the dark the Varyag and Koreets would be much less visible to the Japanese, which would significantly complicate both mine attacks and artillery guidance.

    And you do not touch on this issue in the article, implicitly assuming that shooting at night will be as effective as during the day.
    1. +2
      20 August 2018 14: 12
      ... that in the dark, "Varyag" and "Korean" would be much worse visible to the Japanese ...

      How is it "worse visible"? Rudnev turn on navigation lighting - after all, "it should be")))) bully
      1. +1
        20 August 2018 23: 17
        would turn off after the start of the battle smile
    2. +1
      20 August 2018 14: 17
      Nightly mine attacks will actually be more effective.
      1. +2
        20 August 2018 14: 33
        Based on their results on the night after the July 28 fight, as well as on the night after Tsushima, I think this is not so.
        1. 0
          20 August 2018 14: 43
          Quote: Ivanchester
          Based on their results on the night after the July 28 fight, as well as on the night after Tsushima, I think this is not so.

          Just on the basis of these results, we see that the Varangian and Korean had no chance at all
          1. 0
            20 August 2018 14: 53
            Andrei, I fully admit that you are right.
            It’s just that this aspect is not analyzed in the article, which I actually pointed out.
            For me, for example, it is significant that the mine attacks on the ships of the First TOE, returning to Port Arthur, and on the Nebogatov’s detachment on the night of the 14 on the 15 on May were unsuccessful.
            But, obviously, you have arguments in favor of the opposite point of view.
            So it would be interesting to know them.
            1. +6
              20 August 2018 15: 09
              The difference is, in fact, in detection. That the 1st TOE after returning to Port Arthur, that Nebogatov at Tsushima at night had to be discovered before starting the attack - and each destroyer separately. And the "Varyag" with the "Korean" were ALREADY discovered, they were ALREADY grazed by Japanese ships, if they wanted, they could at least turn on the spotlight at the slightest movement of the Russian ships from the spot - and no one would have told them anything, this is not an attack, well illumination, peaceful business. And camouflage in the dark, with all the lights extinguished, would no longer help, in those specific conditions, secretly sneak out from under the noses of the Japanese ships (which, half a kilometer away from the Varyag, and only do what they graze, reacting to every change in his usual activities, be it a UFO in a forecastle or starting motion from a place) is impossible.
            2. +6
              20 August 2018 15: 10
              Quote: Ivanchester
              But, obviously, you have arguments in favor of the opposite point of view.
              So it would be interesting to know them.

              Ivan, I heard you, thank you! Well - agree that to cram into an article about "Varyag" also this analysis it would be somewhat excessive :))) I propose the following - this week (maximum - next) I will prepare material on the effectiveness of night attacks of destroyers in the nuclear explosives as a separate article outside the cycle, respectively, next week (or after one) it will be on the main one. hi
              1. +2
                20 August 2018 15: 18
                thanks, I'll wait hi
              2. +3
                20 August 2018 16: 58
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                this week (maximum - next) I’ll prepare a material on the effectiveness of night-time destroyer attacks in the nuclear warheads as a separate article outside the cycle,

                Andrei, you just spoil us already)))) Soon we will be able to start arguing with any historians on the topic of naval operations in the REV)
              3. +2
                20 August 2018 19: 13
                Andrei, you spoiled us: what a big cycle about the Varyag, and also work: "about the effectiveness of night attacks by destroyers" - finally "Cool". In my time, the boys said: "legal, zekovski, class", and then this expression appeared, about two or three years after us
              4. Cat
                0
                20 August 2018 20: 22
                Dear Andrey, I draw your attention to the fact that night is a night of strife! Especially if you compare the nights in January and July .... And the traitor to the moon, where to go from her.
                Thank you in advance for the promised article!
                Sincerely, Kitty!
                1. +1
                  20 August 2018 21: 20
                  Quote: Kotischa
                  Dear Andrey, I draw your attention to the fact that night is a night of strife! Especially if you compare the nights in January and July .... And the traitor to the moon, where to go from her.

                  That's for sure, you also need to look for the weather forecast at that time. winked
            3. 0
              21 August 2018 17: 40
              Quote: Ivanchester
              Andrei, I fully admit that you are right.
              It’s just that this aspect is not analyzed in the article, which I actually pointed out.
              For me, for example, it is significant that the mine attacks on the ships of the First TOE, returning to Port Arthur, and on the Nebogatov’s detachment on the night of the 14 on the 15 on May were unsuccessful.
              But, obviously, you have arguments in favor of the opposite point of view.
              So it would be interesting to know them.


              It is worth getting acquainted with the actions of the Japanese destroyers in the previous war with China - they were very successful and led to the defeat of the Chinese fleet in a protected base:
              The next night, February 4, 10 Japanese destroyers (2nd and 3rd detachments) again secretly went to Weihaiwei. While the two gunboats diverted the attention of the Chinese patrols, the destroyers walked around the boom barrier from the south, while two destroyers flew onto the rocks and, having received damage, turned back. Two more destroyers hit the bon, but managed to jump over the moorings at full speed. After waiting for the moon to set, the first detachment of four destroyers went unnoticed around the line of Chinese patrol vessels (destroyers and armed boats) and went to the anchorage of the main forces of the Bayan Navy.

              The Chinese ships did not expect an attack, the Japanese distinguished them well, thanks to the brightly burning portholes. The destroyers marched directly to the flagship battleship Dingyuan, which stood out against the sky with its tall masts. However, at this moment, the second detachment of destroyers, taking the wrong course, went to the Chinese patrol vessels, from which they immediately opened fire from small-caliber quick-shooters and hand weapons. Fire was also fired from large ships.

              Only two destroyers broke through to the Chinese flagship, but due to icing of the torpedo tubes only half of their torpedoes could be launched into it.
              One of them hit the Dingyuan aboard near the stern. On the battleship, they managed to pull up the waterproof partitions, but a strong leak opened in them, the ship began to sink into the water. The Dingyuan was taken to the shore, where after a few hours he sank to the bottom. The deck of the battleship remained above the water, and he could continue to fire from the turret guns.
              The Japanese lost two destroyers and 15 killed. One destroyer was shot from cannons (the crew managed to switch to other vessels), the second (No. 22, from a couple participating in the Dingyuan attack) collided with a Chinese boat when leaving, damaged the helms and flew onto the rocks (the team drowned or froze in the morning the Chinese captured the remaining five crew members). The Japanese took two more heavily damaged destroyers in tow.


              In total, the Japanese destroyers destroyed 2 armored cruisers and 2 battleships were forced to run aground in attacks at the Naval Weihaway Naval War.

              The actions of destroyers in the dark, are very effective and successful.
          2. +3
            20 August 2018 15: 18
            we see that the Varangian and Korean had no chance completely

            Why is this categorical? The facts are exactly the opposite:
            1. In the afternoon, from a pistol distance, yap. destroyers shoot at a Korean who is expecting nothing and miss.
            2. The same night, a bunch of yap. destroyers attack not expecting, anchored in several rows and illuminated by the 1st TO on Arthur's outer raid. Only three hits, no one drowned, not even Pallas (Varyag dimensions).
            True, this is "afterthought", then the destroyers were very much feared. But your judgments are also an afterthought.
            1. +5
              20 August 2018 15: 55
              Only three hits, no one drowned,

              Dear colleague, that you should be healthy, but do you think that Schensnovich and Kossovich threw their ships out of nothing to do ashore?
          3. -1
            23 August 2018 03: 41
            ... hell knows - I read a million years ago that the Varangian could break through, but the gunboat slowed him down - her speed was much lower than that of Cruiser ..
        2. +4
          20 August 2018 15: 51
          Dear namesake, just to understand what you mean ...
          In your reality, the Japanese didn’t drown anyone with mines the night after Tsushima?
          Or maybe "Sevastopol" in the bay of the White Wolf was not blown up at night?
          1. +1
            20 August 2018 16: 37
            Ivan, I actually already specified above what I meant.
            For me, for example, it is significant that the mine attacks on the ships of the First TOE, returning to Port Arthur, and on the Nebogatov’s detachment on the night of the 14 on the 15 on May were unsuccessful.


            Of course, examples of successful nightly mine attacks in that war also took place.
            And I never claimed that an attempt to break through the night would be risk-free.
            Just her hopelessness for me after reading the article did not become obvious.

            In this connection, Andrei even kindly agreed to devote separate material to the actions of the destroyers.

            PS I consider sarcasm on the subject of realities inappropriate. I hope that in future communication you will find it possible to refrain from it hi
            1. 0
              21 August 2018 09: 04
              Sorry, dear namesake, you just chose examples that are convenient for you. Therefore, I believe that the "sarcasm" in this case is completely excused. feel
              However, if it hurts you ... Yes I will try :)
          2. 0
            21 August 2018 14: 41
            1) Well, the EDB was blown up by Sevastopol after lengthy attacks, moreover from a mine boat ...
            2) After the July battle, the MN attacks were inconclusive ... request
            1. 0
              21 August 2018 18: 12
              mine boats
              a) much less destroyers (37mm projectile per eye)
              3) is much slower (14-17 nodes)
              1. 0
                21 August 2018 21: 22
                But they are more difficult to detect.
                1. +1
                  22 August 2018 13: 06
                  went along the coast ... request
  6. +8
    20 August 2018 16: 03
    Apparently, this discrepancy occurred due to an incorrect interpretation: we re-read it again, as V.F. Rudnev describes Commodore Bailey's words:
    “I came as the senior commander of the ships on the roads, to you as the senior Japanese commander, to warn you:

    1. We are standing on the raid of the nation declaring neutrality, therefore, the raid is definitely neutral and no one has the right to shoot or to land mines at anyone. I announce to you that the ship that will do this doesn’t matter which nation, I will start shooting first.


    In terms of this conversation, there is an English version published in the work of Admiral Cyprian Bridge in 1905;

    " The captain of the "Varyag" then pointed out that the Japanese destroyers were located so that they could attack the Russian ships without damaging any neutral ship; while the Russians are not
    can shoot without great danger of defeating neutral vessels. HMS Talbot Captain Protests Japanese Senior Officer Against His Posing endanger the safety of British nationals or propertyat the same time, he received assurances that the Japanese would not attack the Russians if the latter refrained from trying to prevent the landing of Japanese troops that arrived in Chemulpo.
    "

    If we proceed from this version, the British were not interested in Korea's neutrality, they were more concerned with the preservation of their "property".
    1. +1
      20 August 2018 23: 23
      "The Varyag captain then pointed out that the Japanese destroyers were positioned so that they could attack the Russian ships without damaging any neutral ship; while the Russians did not
      can shoot without great danger of defeating neutral vessels. HMS Talbot captain protested the Japanese senior officer against his actions,
      ,
      This is not in the report of Rudnev himself, although obviously it should have been.
      Perhaps this was all only at the very beginning, and the destroyers immediately rearranged
  7. +4
    20 August 2018 17: 07
    My thanks to the distinguished Author for the article. In fact, before this analysis, having a superficial knowledge of the situation of Russian ships in Chemulpo, there was also the thought - why didn’t you try to slip away at night?
    The answer is actually simple - the ambiguity in the situation did not allow the military man to leave his post without permission. This makes any discussion of "what if so? Or so" probabilities meaningless.
  8. +2
    20 August 2018 19: 40
    After reading the last two parts, I had the opinion that the japs ​​were more than calculated: they provided for EVERYTHING in Chemulpo and an attempt to prevent the landing, attempts to break through Rudnev, and even the fantastic possibility of the appearance of the Portartur squadron!
    1. Cat
      +2
      20 August 2018 20: 26
      Vlad, I’ll say it more rudely. The Japanese scored on the rules, acted more impudently and decisively, in most cases being ahead of the curve.
      We in most cases did not have time to trite .......
      Yours!
    2. +1
      20 August 2018 23: 25
      This is Uriu, the authorities offered, in the presence of Russian ships, a landing in the bay, and not in the port.
  9. 0
    20 August 2018 21: 47
    I would also like to add a few words about the destroyers. Expectations from the meeting of the Varangian with the Japanese destroyers are clearly excessive. Destroyers did not confirm their supposedly high efficiency during the time of the REV. It’s difficult to get there, you need to get close at close range, at 300 meters, and as you can see, this is not a guarantee of the defeat of the enemy. On the other hand, at such distances, destroyers themselves become a simple target for ships armed with six inches.

    In general, destroyers pose some additional risks but no more. For the high-speed cruiser, the destroyer squad is not a big problem.
    1. +1
      20 August 2018 23: 26
      torpedoes are primitive, the destroyer itself is the size of a torpedo boat.
      not surprising.
    2. 0
      21 August 2018 09: 07
      Destroyers did not confirm their supposedly high efficiency during the time of the REV.

      And who knew about this 27.01.1904?
      1. 0
        21 August 2018 21: 34
        But today it is well known and helps to restrainedly evaluate too categorical statements and phrases such as "both" Varyag "and" Koreyets "would be instantly destroyed by torpedoes from destroyers" or "since there he would become an excellent target for destroyers." :)

        And it’s hard to say about Rudnev that he was very much concerned about the Japanese destroyers.
    3. 0
      21 August 2018 17: 33
      Quote: Saxahorse
      I would also like to add a few words about the destroyers. Expectations from the meeting of the Varangian with the Japanese destroyers are clearly excessive. Destroyers did not confirm their supposedly high efficiency during the time of the REV. It’s difficult to get there, you need to get close at close range, at 300 meters, and as you can see, this is not a guarantee of the defeat of the enemy. On the other hand, at such distances, destroyers themselves become a simple target for ships armed with six inches.

      In general, destroyers pose some additional risks but no more. For the high-speed cruiser, the destroyer squad is not a big problem.


      However, not in the raid.
      And on the roadstead, the motionless "Varyag" and "Koreets" represent a convenient target for an attack.
      As was shown by the Japanese destroyers during the attack of the Chinese naval base Weihavey earlier. The naval base of Weihavey, in addition to several ships, had several coastal batteries and barriers to impede the actions of destroyers, which was not an obstacle to their successful actions:
      Two destroyers, including the armored Kotaka, attacked and torpedoed the armored cruiser Laiyuan.
      Ten minutes after the torpedo explosion, the Laiyuan rolled over and sank, leaving a bottom on the surface.
      Two other destroyers torpedoed the Weiyuan training ship, which sank in shallow water.
      In their report, the Japanese reported the defeat of other Chinese ships, including both armadillos and another cruiser.
      1. +1
        21 August 2018 21: 41
        We have already recalled above that on the same night 10 destroyers fired 16 torpedoes, but achieved only three hits. And they actually shot at the "crowd of hares", the whole squadron in four lines in the roadstead .. Here is a good example for you.

        There are also questions regarding the "exploits" of the Japanese destroyers in Weihaiwei. There was information that most of them were just newspaper fabrications. In terms of reliability at the level of dozens of aircraft carriers sunk in 1945. And it seems like in reality everything was limited to one torpedo hit.
        1. 0
          22 August 2018 09: 59
          Quote: Saxahorse
          We have already recalled above that on the same night 10 destroyers fired 16 torpedoes, but achieved only three hits. And they actually shot at the "crowd of hares", the whole squadron in four lines in the roadstead .. Here is a good example for you.

          There are also questions regarding the "exploits" of the Japanese destroyers in Weihaiwei. There was information that most of them were just newspaper fabrications. In terms of reliability at the level of dozens of aircraft carriers sunk in 1945. And it seems like in reality everything was limited to one torpedo hit.


          Well, out of 10 destroyers - only two broke through directly to attack and - and this is not a neutral raid - but still a protected naval base. In addition to large vessels, the defense was carried by armed boats and boats - and at the same time 2 destroyers break through in the first attack and the battleship torpedoed.
          In subsequent attacks, another battleship was damaged and ran aground and two cruisers sunk - a brilliant result of mortar attacks on a protected naval base!

          Two torpedo battleships and two sunk cruisers - these figures appeared in Chinese materials.

          As for the situation with the Varyag - I agree with the author, attempts to fire at destroyers against the background of other ships - carry a very high risk of ricochet and hits on neutral ships. Not to mention the political complications of such a decision.
          To wean anchor and go out into the channel - nothing prevented the Japanese destroyers from performing an attack at a distance of a "pistol shot" in the channel - at best, the destroyer would be "exchanged" for a cruiser, and at the exit from the channel, a Japanese squadron was waiting for it in the lighthouse For sure, a landing party was landed, which would have warned the main forces in advance about the exit of the Varyag.
          In general, the situation is stalemate, whatever one may say.
          1. 0
            22 August 2018 21: 47
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            Well, out of 10 destroyers - only two broke through directly to attack and - and this is not a neutral raid - but still a protected naval base

            And these two erupted fired 16 torpedoes ?? Sorry, but you are confusing something .. The result of the attack was obviously very bad and the squad leader even wanted to punish for such a shameful beginning.

            Quote: DimerVladimer
            nothing prevented the Japanese destroyers from performing an attack at a "pistol shot" distance in the fairway - at best, the destroyer would be "exchanged" for a cruiser,

            Again, I'm sorry, but this is the attack we discussed in a previous article. What’s easier, get close to an unsuspecting Korean and finish off. I can recall that two torpedoes from 300 meters were fired. Hits - zero.

            Unfortunately, I can’t understand what exactly you saw the signs of the effective work of the destroyers of the time of the REV. Even a cursory glance confirms that the effectiveness of attacks is extremely low.
            1. +1
              23 August 2018 10: 04
              I apologize for interfering, but, obviously, my colleague told you about the Sino-Japanese war, and you told him about the Russian-Japanese laughing
              1. 0
                23 August 2018 22: 40
                Yes, I don’t seem to understand. I have thoughts in Chemulpo around Varyag.
  10. +1
    21 August 2018 00: 38
    Thank you, dear Andrew, for the detailed layout +! I had never been interested in night events before, I read with great interest.
  11. +1
    21 August 2018 13: 40
    Quote: Saxahorse
    On the other hand, at such distances, destroyers themselves become a simple target for ships armed with six inches.


    Yes, there are enough three-inch eyes for the eyes, especially considering their rate of fire compared to six-inch ones. hi
    1. +1
      21 August 2018 21: 48
      The three-inch machines did not have landmines. You need to get there successfully, into the boiler there or into the cylinder. Six-inch is a guaranteed one-shot. Well, the rate of fire of 6 "is already quite sufficient. And there is almost no need for advance by 800 meters, where you pointed there and got there.
  12. +3
    21 August 2018 14: 38
    1) Unfortunately, the author applies different standards to Russians and Japanese and makes the latter fairy-tale heroes ... request
    "Well, then the position of the Russian ships should have been described as hopeless." Varyag "and" Koreyets "are anchored at gunpoint by Japanese destroyers, who were not only located at a distance that did not allow them to miss the anchored ship, but with the onset of darkness they aimed at Russian stationers have their torpedo tubes. "
    "And - even before" Varyag "and" Koreets "move from their place, unleash a hail of shells from all guns on two nearby destroyers." Aotaka "and" Hari "were relatively small destroyers, with a normal displacement of 152 tons - theoretically , point-blank dagger fire (500 meters!) Could suppress them and send them to the bottom so quickly that the latter would not have time to use torpedoes, although the chances of this would be very small "
    It would be nice for the author to compare the effective firing range of the torpedoes of that time and the direct firing range of 3 "and 6" guns - the Japanese had no chance, as well as attacking the second pair of departing RIF ships from the aft corners.
    2) Crazy shells could hit neutrals - so what? Would pay for the damage - business then ... the author is very serious about "diplomatic complications" ...
    3) getting into a going ship at night is not so easy, there were no radars then - this greatly increases the chances of breaking the Varyag.
    4) "Couldn't be successful;" arguably, the author adjusts the facts to fit his conclusion.
    5) "could lead to a completely useless death of Russian ships with minimal damage to the Japanese, or without it at all;" alas, this was in reality ... request But no one knows their fate and what needs to be done is ....
    6) And yet, that the author did not note - navigation ... the fairway was then complicated (now straightened and deepened) and there was a chance to put the Varyag aground, but this is a question of risk analysis - which is better to break through day or night, Rudnev chose in the afternoon. ..
    1. +1
      21 August 2018 18: 42
      It would be nice for the author to compare the effective firing range of the torpedoes of that time and the direct firing range of 3 "and 6" guns - the Japanese had no chance, as well as attacking the second pair of departing RIF ships from the aft corners.

      and it would be nice for you to think how the Japanese destroyers will be behind the stern of Russian ships?
      "Varyag" and "Koreets" are at anchor, and the Japanese are already in positions with the covers of the mine vehicles raised. Russians need:
      a) unfasten the chain
      b) give a move
      c) ideally open fire.
      the Japanese only launch.
      1. +1
        21 August 2018 21: 58
        Well, let's say the covers were closed. If they had started immediately, TA would start a battle right away.

        By the way, Varyag also has 6 TAs (and 2 more on steam boats). It is curious that the nasal TA did not launch with gunpowder but with compressed air.
        1. +1
          21 August 2018 22: 45
          If they had started immediately, TA would start a battle right away.

          Melnikov.With the onset of darkness, the Japanese destroyers, located with extinguished lights between their transports and Russian ships, pointed torpedo tubes at the Varyag and Koreets
          so still - brought
          By the way, Varyag also has 6 TA

          Yeah, only they are not turning, as on destroyers. In order to aim, you need a turn in the hull or for the adversary to climb into the sight himself.
          1. +1
            22 August 2018 22: 01
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            As darkness fell, the Japanese destroyers, located with extinguished lights between their transports and Russian ships, launched torpedo tubes

            Well, that is, all the same, they did not stand directly opposite, but as the author wrote, 500 meters and closer to their transports, apparently partially behind the foreign inpatients. Are you sure that they are in complete darkness at the same time, namely on the Varangian? ;)

            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Yeah, only they are not turning, as on destroyers. In order to aim, you need a turn in the hull or for the adversary to climb into the sight himself.

            Why is it that the Varyag suddenly became fixed? Two in the pins, yes, on rivets, but four more on-board are very rotary. They are not underwater, they are upstairs. Well, two more 254 mm are on steam boats. You can say torpedo bombers.

            By the way, we still did not even remember the Sungari steamer. With due paranoid and it can somehow be used :)
            1. +1
              23 August 2018 10: 11
              and here are four more onboard very rotary

              Sorry, oppsypsy feel angle there, however, with gulkin x .. but really rotary
              Well, two more 254 mm are on steam boats. You can say torpedo bombers.

              Since these mines were propelling, then they were missile carriers laughing
              1. 0
                23 August 2018 22: 42
                Cool! More minefields to lay there and Rudnev at the helm. In the role of kamikaze. A good alternative is pecking!
        2. +1
          22 August 2018 13: 11
          why such difficulties - at a distance of 3 cabs from 6 dm guns will fall into a circle of 1 m ... request
      2. 0
        22 August 2018 13: 09
        1) And what is there to think - they set off and that’s it ... request
        2) You also have the Japanese omnipotent and omnipresent ... bully
        3) Shot TA at that time is not so simple thing ... bully
        4) By the way - the Varangian could set up mine networks and go with them - they didn’t interfere with small passages, and at night you won’t be able to disperse along the fairway .... hi .
        so night care is an option. soldier
        1. +1
          22 August 2018 15: 54
          And what is there to think - set in motion and all

          Of course of course.
          You also have the Japanese omnipotent and omnipresent ..

          No, they just had more opportunities and time to prepare
          A TA shot of that time was not such a simple matter ..

          Charged and induced? Pull the lever.
          By the way - Varangian could put mine networks and go with them

          In your fantasies - perhaps.
          In addition, the mine part of the cruiser included anti-mine barrage networks. They were hung on the sides on special metal tubular poles when the ship is anchored in an open roadstead. The network boom kit included 20 boom poles with the necessary rigging and the net itself, woven from metal cables.

          Mine nets are not a paravan. See the picture (this is "Askold", but there is no fundamental difference)

          There will be no sense from the network on the go (if there is (self-censorship) which made the move with uncleaned networks), and when it breaks off, this garbage is immediately wound on the screw.
          1. 0
            22 August 2018 22: 06
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Charged and induced? Pull the lever.

            Colleague, let me remind you that the ships are not anchored, but spin. And pointing once a little. And tracking the sight in the dark and for 500 meters is not easy.

            Although I would not be surprised if Rudnev and lighting at night did not think to turn off. :)
            1. 0
              23 August 2018 10: 23
              that the ships do not anchor tightly but spin.

              Yeah, like a fan!
              1. +1
                23 August 2018 17: 47
                [/ quote] Yeah, like a fan! [quote]

                Guessed it! There is the ebb, then the tide.
                1. 0
                  23 August 2018 22: 45
                  Plus I remember a photo where everything is there across the fairway at anchors. It turns out between the ebb and flow, when the current is near zero, they usually unfold with their wind along the coast.

                  In general, yes, a fan :)
  13. +1
    21 August 2018 17: 12
    Good afternoon. Andrey is very grateful to you for your efforts in writing articles. Shovel such a large amount of information, comprehend and give out readable text ....
    let me add my thoughts.
    1. Do not you think that the Commodore's speech about the opening of fire on the "troublemaker" in the roadstead was addressed primarily to Rudnev, who understood everything perfectly. And in this
    situations, circumstances led the actions of Rudnev.
    And after the night breakthrough of the Varangian and the Korean — again, we are returning to that state of the cruiser’s machines — I even successfully slipped past the Japanese squadron, I still wouldn’t have gone far (it’s not clear where to put the Korean with its 13 knots).
    2. Yes, it would be possible to arrange shooting on the roadstead by making the Japanese a possible and unexpected gift in the form of indignation of the "world community", and on the contrary, it caused universal admiration.
    This is now, about having the after-hours, almost by the minutes and cards before my eyes (something that Rudnev could not have) and then there are some hot battles in comments.
    3. The death of the Varangian and Korean
    became a prologue to the shamefully lost war. And all the time in discussions we run into problems of 1 TOE:
    We didn’t manage to bring the number of ships to full-time (although it’s hard to be in time if it’s not in a hurry yet).
    Unsuccessful distribution of even available ships, etc. forgetting the land component. If the rapid replenishment of the ship's composition for 1903. was not realistic, then increase the number of forces in the Far East to 300 thousand (20 thousand to Sakhalin, 80 thousand in the Vladivostok region and 200 thousand on the border with Korea) cancel demobilization, then yes, it was possible to talk to the Japanese from a position of strength "yes gentlemen, you have a certain advantage at sea and you can try to poke around, but around Korea you will run like a homeless dog under a fence.) After all, their landing was expected to meet not with separate, scattered detachments, but with an army whose strength after the start of the war would replenish And Japan would start a war in such a situation, a big question. But what happened happened - with Japan, the conversation was not going from a position of strength, but from a position of business show-offs like "I don't want war, so there will be no war ..".
    And the last, for that matter, Rudnev against the background of Witgeft, Ukhtomsky or Rozhestvensky looks generally well done. In a hopeless situation, he went into battle, and did not lift his paws uphill.
    1. +4
      21 August 2018 18: 46
      Colleague, if you allow a couple of questions: Where will these 300 of thousands of people be deployed and how to supply them?
      As for Witgeft, Wilhelm Karlovich died on the bridge of his flagship leading the squadron into battle. Rozhdestvensky, was captured seriously wounded.
      1. 0
        21 August 2018 20: 36
        Dear colleague "senior sailor" to your sarcastic question, the answer is simple - at the end of 1904 only in Manchuria the number of Russian troops reached 300 thousand and their supply took place in a much more difficult situation, given the constant transfer of reinforcements and BC. War is all the same.
        And about Vitgeft, this is not the case when "the dead do not have shame" the complete passivity of the squadron after the death of Makarov. Here Rudnev is inclined, who finds himself in a much more difficult situation. And Rozhestvensky led the squadron to the Tsushima defeat.
        1. +3
          21 August 2018 21: 13
          War still

          War is an extraordinary circumstance. You can put up with a lot. And the logistics that existed before the war hardly ensured the thousandth grouping of 130.
          in Manchuria

          the key word is "Manchuria". And before the war, the great powers insistently demanded the withdrawal of the troops that occupied it after the Boxer uprising, in accordance with the Russian-Chinese agreement of 1902. And most of it was withdrawn.
          Therefore, I repeat the question, where are you going to place and how to supply 300 thousandth grouping? Our Far East was completely undeveloped, there was not so much stupid infrastructure there and it would not be possible to quickly create it.
          complete passivity of the squadron after the death of Makarov.

          Accompanied, oddly enough, by the greatest losses of the Japanese fleet in the entire war.
          A Christmas

          He did everything he could in those conditions.
          Colleague, go to the page of the author of this material. There is a lot of interesting things about the battle in the Yellow Sea and Tsushima.
          P.S. where did you see sarcasm?
          1. -2
            21 August 2018 23: 44
            Before the war, logistics could not provide an army of less than 100 thousand? Could or did not want to? At the end of the war, logistics along the same CER was able to provide an army of more than 500 thousand. And who is this very logistics? Pike from a fairy tale? Logistics are people. And if desired, the rear could be established a year earlier.
            And 200 thousand. The grouping should be located in Manchuria and sowing. Kore.What England demanded there does not mean that Russia should have taken it "under the hood." It turns out that Japan could put on the sovereignty of Korea, but Russia could not?
            2. Witgeft has a mediocre attitude to the death on the mines of two Japanese battleships. He was generally against laying mines in international waters.
            3. Rozhdestvensky's "merit" is only in the fact that the squadron reached Tsushima, without training in shooting, and did not even repaint the ships.
            1. +2
              22 August 2018 12: 00
              Before the war, logistics could not provide an army of less than 100 thousand?

              Colleague, can you read? I wrote provided 130 thousands.
              At the end of the war, logistics along the same CER managed to provide an army of over 500 thousand

              Yeah, I just had to do something for this. In particular, to assemble rolling stock from all over the country, and these are wagons, steam locomotives, maintenance personnel, which were always lacking. And without that, alas. Only 10 pairs of trains per day.
              And 200 thousand grouping should be located precisely in Manchuria

              Yeah, that is, we do not comply with the agreements?
              what England demanded there

              Not only England. Also the USA and China, which also did not really like that all sorts of poets were hanging around its territory.
              Rozhestvensky's "merit" is only in the fact that the squadron reached Tsushima, without training in shooting, and did not even repaint the ships.

              Colleague, all that follows from your stormy speech is that you have no idea what to write about.
              I’m embarrassed to ask, did you read anything besides Novikov?
    2. +1
      22 August 2018 13: 18
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      If the rapid replenishment of the ship's composition in 1903. it was not real

      and if you don’t send Chukhnin’s detachment to the Baltic?
      1. +2
        22 August 2018 15: 57
        This is an option. all the more so since they never received any modernization. so, current repair.
  14. 0
    22 August 2018 13: 20
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    Rozhdestvensky, was captured seriously wounded.

    This is far from the whole truth, a muddy story ... at the beginning it was evacuated from the flagship, then they passed MN ....
    1. 0
      22 August 2018 15: 58
      The Japanese waited a month until his condition improved even a bit before deciding on an operation. So nothing muddy, the man was really seriously injured.
  15. +3
    22 August 2018 13: 27
    Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
    And about Vitgeft, this is not the case when "the dead have no shame" the complete passivity of the squadron after the death of Makarov

    1) VKV died in the battle on the bridge ... Peace be upon him ... The fight was dignified, competently maneuvered ...
    2) By the way, he is the most effective admiral of the steam era in the RIF ... under his command, the RIF destroyed the enemy’s 2nd EDB.
    3) As for its "passivity", I would like to remind you that 2 EBRs were badly damaged, one EBR died by mistake by COM, another EBR had a 10uz move. because of a collision during the experiments of the COM ... You can't really fight the rest of the squadron - it is extremely rash to go out with 4 EBRs with a squadron move of 10 knots at sea ... request And the transfer of shooters from ship commanders for training commandants to the admiral is a classic otmazon loafers - who prevented them from conducting combat training of entrusted personnel ?. hi
    1. +5
      22 August 2018 16: 00
      VKV died in a battle on the bridge ... Peace be upon him ... The fight was dignified, competently maneuvered ...

      good join in
      Wilhelm Karlovich has something to criticize for, but not for the last battle.
  16. -1
    22 August 2018 13: 32
    Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
    2. Witgeft has a mediocre attitude to the death on the mines of two Japanese battleships. He was generally against laying mines in international waters.

    be surprised, but it was he who commanded at that moment and was responsible for everything ... and he was also a recognized expert in the mine business ... you read Soviet books request
    Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
    Rozhestvensky's "merit" is only in the fact that the squadron reached Tsushima, without training in shooting, and did not even repaint the ships.

    The campaign of the ZPR was rather nervous, unlike the same Nebogatov ... but he organized the entry into the battle simply mediocre ... request
  17. +1
    22 August 2018 13: 33
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    And without that, alas. Only 10 pairs of trains per day.

    at the beginning of the war 4 pairs ... the main problem is the Baikal road request
  18. +2
    22 August 2018 17: 24
    Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051

    3. Rozhdestvensky's "merit" is only in the fact that the squadron reached Tsushima, without training in shooting, and did not even repaint the ships.


    In fact, the mere fact that such a huge cluster of steam "steamers" could safely and without loss overpower such a distance and reach the theater of operations is already an unprecedented achievement for that time. As a military commander, Rozhdestvensky, of course, is complete zero, but as an organizer and leader of such a transition, he showed real talent and strength of character. You should not hait about everything indiscriminately. hi
    1. +1
      22 August 2018 22: 18
      Quote: Sea Cat
      In fact, the mere fact that such a huge accumulation of steam "steamers" was able to overcome such a distance safely and without loss and reach the theater of military operations is already an unprecedented achievement for that time.

      Well, you have already bent it. I am glad, of course, that all our ships did not sink on their own halfway, but to consider ordinary military work an "unprecedented achievement" is too much. Let me remind you that the campaigns of detachments from the Baltic to the Far East and back were quite commonplace long before Rozhdestvensky. He drove the American fleet all over the world, so his commander should have been assigned the title of superhero?
      1. +1
        23 August 2018 01: 53
        Goodnight.
        1. Yes, dear Senior Sailor, I carefully read your answer, but you forgot that 127 thousand is the number of all Russian armed forces east of Lake Baikal.
        2. Yes, Novikov-Breakdown and Kostenko, as participants in the events who saw everything from the inside, are for me the most authoritative sources on the Tsushima tragedy.
        3. Regarding the setting of mines by "Cupid" in all the sources that I read, it was Ivanov's personal initiative. And, just Vitgeft gave permission to lay mines no further than 8 miles. And Ivanov in this situation went to direct disregard of the order of Vitgeft.
        So, "Hatsuse" and "Yasima" are the merit of FN Ivanov, but not Vitgeft.
        1. 0
          23 August 2018 02: 11
          So, after the death of Stepan Osipovich Makarov, there were no naval commanders at that time in Russia, only admirals remained (Russia was not lucky, the Grand Duke the Grand Duke sailed out, but Makarov did not).
          So, dear Senior Sailor, I think that each of us will remain with his own, already established opinion on these topics.
          1. +2
            23 August 2018 10: 49
            You see, what’s the matter ... I used to think just like you. I just then knew about those distant events negligible
        2. +2
          23 August 2018 10: 48
          1) Bravo! Now think about why?
          2) And it is very sad.
          First, because you have not read them carefully. For Novikov actually wrote about shooting and preparation. Negatively, of course, but he wrote. so your "without training"by.
          secondly, because a battalion soldier and a graduate of the shipbuilding department, who spent the entire battle in the infirmary, were not the only participants in the campaign who left behind notes or testimonies from the commission of inquiry. For example, Lieutenant Malechkin, the senior artilleryman of Sisoy the Great, described in great detail both the shooting and the distance.
          “Shooting was always carried out by a squadron under the personal command and guidance of the squadron commander, Vice-Admiral Rozhestvensky ... Shooting was carried out over long distances, approximately starting from the 70 cab. and before 40 cab., but “Sisoy the Great” usually began firing with the 60 cab. from 12 "guns, and from 50 cab. from 6" guns, because the elevation angles of the guns did not allow to use more table range ... ... Shooting was arranged as required by the combat situation, each time the distance was measured with both Barr and Strude instruments, as well as rangefinders - micrometer Lyuzhol, and both those and others served for mutual control. The distances thus obtained were transferred to the battery and the towers with the aid of the Heusler instruments, and in addition, there was also a voice transmission. Negotiation pipes and not telephones enjoyed great confidence. Before the shooting started, usually the lead ships of their detachments (“Suvorov”, “Oslyabya” and others.) Determined the distances either by zeroing or instruments and showed this distance to their matelotas with a signal, and then everyone acted independently. ”

          Or the senior officer of the "Eagle" Swede (whom Novikov brought out in the novel by Sidorov)
          With the battleship "Eagle" in Revel fired from the barrels Berdan cartridges from 47-mm guns at a fixed target during the day. They also shot 2 times at night from 47-mm guns at a signal from the admiral, on alarm, with combat lighting of fixed shields. Then the guns on duty fired, and everything, for firing, 20 — 30 shells were fired. In the case of Gull, 2 shots were fired from 6’s right-handed 13s; 47-shots were fired from 75-mm and 480-mm shells; 2 shots were fired from 300’s 3 12-ln. Bullets. Standing in Nossi-be, the Eagle went three times to fire; here, for these shots, for each 10 "1 cannon piece. shots. The entire stock of practical (cast iron) projectiles on our battleship did not have time to shoot, some of them, around 3 / 47, remained. While stationed in Kamrang, they still managed to shoot from XNUMX mm barrels. guns ammunition Berdan, that's all that could serve as a practice for our gunners.
      2. +1
        23 August 2018 10: 29
        The American Navy drove away all around the world

        Uh-huh, that "Maine" and "Alabama" did not master it and went to be repaired. Soava God, the time was not war.
        Let me remind you that detachments from the Baltic to the Far East and back were quite common long before Rozhdestvensky.

        Amendment, not units, but separate vessels. Stackelberg marched in the detachment, but lost half his ships by the road.
        It, of course, is not a feat. But the organizer of the ZPR was not bad.
        1. 0
          23 August 2018 22: 54
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          It, of course, is not a feat. But the organizer of the ZPR was not bad.

          For some reason, before the war, when it was especially needed, his organizational genius never manifested itself in anything. Rozhdestvensky did not demonstrate anything but the huge conceit of the nearby big boss. But he was firmly convinced that if he stopped shouting from the bridge, all these bastards would immediately break down and drown.

          It should be noted that something ZPR achieved. By the end of the campaign, all squadron officers deeply and sincerely despised their admiral. This was repeatedly mentioned in letters and memoirs of survivors.
  19. +1
    23 August 2018 00: 40
    Quote: anzar
    Those. war, not declared, Yapi drown Varyag on a raid ... who will Talbot shoot at?
    Yes, most likely, in no one: the matter is closed.
  20. +2
    23 August 2018 01: 12
    [quote = Saxahorse] brute force. Let me remind you that the campaigns of units from the Baltic to the Far East and back were quite common long before Christmas. [/ Quote

    With so many different types of ships, plus destroyers absolutely not adapted for such sailing?

    [quote = Saxahorse] long before Christmas. The American fleet drove out all around the world, so did you need to assign the title of superhero to his commander? [/ Quote]

    Did the Americans also take their destroyers around the world? wink
    1. +1
      23 August 2018 22: 58
      Something on the post of chief of the school of music, he allegedly could not show his abilities. The failure to concentrate the fleet in the Far East before the war is largely his merit.
  21. +1
    23 August 2018 14: 34
    Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
    increase the strength in the Far East to 300 thousand (20 thousand on Sakhalin, 80 thousand in the Vladivostok region and 200 thousand on the border with Korea)

    Unrealistic. Let's not forget that the Transsiberian with a break to Lake Baikal only started working in July 1903, and immediately began actively transferring infantry battalions from Russia, deploying the East Siberian regiments from two-battalion to three-battalion. the ability from July to January from less than one pair to two confident, which still yielded a daily increase of 1 infantry battalion, 3 guns and 0,5 hundreds of cavalry.
  22. 0
    23 August 2018 14: 35
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    Mine networks, this is not a paravan.

    are you kidding laughing they are from torpedoes ... or according to you, the Japanese from the mine apparatus are galvanic-shock mines of arrows bully whine?
    1. 0
      25 August 2018 14: 54
      you are weird

      Not me.
      I’m just explaining that the nets are designed for parking, and the paravan is for running. Otherwise, they do not work.
      1. +1
        25 August 2018 16: 22
        However.... bully a paravan against anchor mines, but the nets against torpedoes ...
  23. 0
    23 August 2018 14: 37
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    The Japanese waited a month until his condition improved even a bit before deciding on an operation. So nothing muddy, the man was really seriously injured.

    I’m talking about something else - why was it necessary to remove the seriously wounded ZPR from the flagship - could he not command? Why was MN turned into a hospital ship? And the moral aspect ...
    1. 0
      25 August 2018 14: 56
      In general, when the flagship moves from a damaged ship to another - the norm. Kolomeytsev did not know about his condition.
      1. -1
        25 August 2018 16: 23
        I'm not talking about the commander of the Ministry of Defense, I'm talking about the staff that they escaped from Suvorov for this reason ... well, ZPR is good - authorized ...
  24. 0
    23 August 2018 14: 39
    [quote = Sea Cat] [quote = Oleg Kolsky 051]
    As a combat commander, Rozhdestvensky was certainly a complete zero, but as the organizer and leader of such a transition, he showed real talent and firmness of character. It should not be blamed for everything. hi[/ Quote]
    in parallel, 3 TOEs were led by Nebogatov - without noise and dust, sailors were not inflated, and rangefinders were verified ... bully
  25. +2
    23 August 2018 14: 41
    Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
    Yes, Novikov-Breakdown and Kostenko, as participants in the events who saw everything from the inside, are for me the most authoritative sources on the Tsushima tragedy.

    there is such an expression - they lie like eyewitnesses ... request and do not forget the "class approach" ... Although it is indisputable about the details of life, moods ...
  26. 0
    23 August 2018 14: 43
    Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
    Regarding the setting of mines by "Cupid" in all the sources that I read, it was Ivanov's personal initiative. And, just Vitgeft gave permission to lay mines no further than 8 miles. And Ivanov in this situation went to direct disregard of the order of Vitgeft.

    1) did you read the combat order of the VKV?
    2) look at Ivanov’s biography - he never took the initiative ... request
    3) VKV did not receive any reward, while Cupid went on a campaign by his order ... hi In my opinion, intrigue continues, although 110 years have passed ...
  27. +1
    23 August 2018 14: 50
    Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
    ak, that after the death of Stepan Osarovich Makarov in Russia, the fleet commanders at that time were gone

    1) And why did you become a naval commander? Do not tell about his victories at sea in the admiral's ranks?
    2) As for me, I am convinced that COM is one of the culprits of the defeat of the 1st TOE and the defeat in the REV ... request
    His main absurdities at a post in the PA:
    1) The prohibition of cruising operations of the wok south of Henzan - i.e. he did not interfere with the deployment of the Japanese army,
    2) Sharply weakened the destroyer fleet in mediocre campaigns, when our MN always found themselves against the superior forces of the enemy, they are "expendable"
    3) 2EBR damaged by strange maneuvers, and did not allow to repair screws, i.e. get a normal move ...
    4) He imitated activity, fell into the trap of Togo and died himself and drowned the EBR, although he received a message about shadows on the raid.
    etc. hi
  28. 0
    23 August 2018 14: 52
    Quote: Sea Cat
    approved torpedo boat sailing?

    they were generally dragged in vain ....
  29. The comment was deleted.

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