The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904

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The cruiser "Varyag". During Soviet times in our country would hardly have found a man who had never heard of this ship. For many generations of our compatriots, Varyag has become a symbol of heroism and dedication of Russian sailors in battle.



However, perestroika, publicity and the “wild 90-e” that followed. Our history revised all and sundry, and pouring mud on it has become a fashionable trend. Got, of course, and "Varyag", and - in full. What did not accuse his crew and commander! We agreed already that Vsevolod Fedorovich Rudnev intentionally (!) Flooded the cruiser where it could be easily raised, for which he subsequently received the Japanese order. But on the other hand, there were many sources of information that were not previously available to historians and history buffs fleet - Perhaps their study can really make adjustments to the history of the heroic cruiser, familiar to us from childhood?

This series of articles, of course, will not dot the i's. But we will try to bring together information on the history of the design, construction and service of the cruiser to Chemulpo itself, inclusive, based on the data available to us, we will analyze the technical condition of the ship and the training of its crew, possible breakthrough options and various battle scenarios. We will try to figure out why the cruiser commander Vsevolod Fyodorovich Rudnev made certain decisions. In the light of the above, we will analyze the postulates of the official version of the Varyag battle, as well as the arguments of its opponents. Of course, the author of the present cycle of articles has formed a certain view on the feat of “Varyag”, and he, of course, will be presented. But the author sees his task not to persuade the reader to any point of view, but to give maximum information, on the basis of which everyone can decide for himself what the actions of the commander and crew of the cruiser Varyag are for him proud of the fleet and their country, the shameful page of our history, or something else.

Well, we will begin with a description of where such an unusual type of warships appeared in Russia, like high-speed armored cruisers of the 1 rank, with a normal displacement of 6-7 thousand tons.

The ancestors of the armored cruisers of the Russian Imperial fleet can be considered the Vityaz and Rynda armored corvettes as the normal displacement of 3 508 t, built in 1886.



Three years later, the composition of the domestic fleet was replenished by a larger armored cruiser with a displacement of 5 880 T - this was the Admiral Kornilov ordered in France, which the Loire shipyard (Saint-Nazaire) began to build in 1886. However, then the construction of armored-mounted cruisers in Russia began a long pause - almost a decade, from 1886 to 1895 year The Russian Imperial Navy has not ordered a single ship of this class. Yes, the “Svetlana” laid out at the end of 1895 in the French shipyards (with a displacement of 3828), although it was a quite decent small armored cruiser for its time, was still built, rather, as a representative yacht for Admiral General, and not as a ship corresponding to the doctrine of the fleet. "Svetlana" did not fully meet the requirements for this class of warships by Russian sailors, and therefore was built in a single copy and was not replicated in domestic shipyards.

And what, strictly speaking, were the demands of the fleet to armored cruisers?

The fact is that the Russian Empire in the period 1890-1895. began to seriously strengthen its Baltic Fleet with squadron battleships. Prior to this, in 1883 and 1886. two "armadillo rams" were laid "Emperor Alexander II" and "Emperor Nicholas I" and then only in 1889 - "Navarin". Very slowly - on an armadillo every three years. But in 1891 the Great Sisoy was laid, in 1892 - three squadron battleships of the Sevastopol type at once, and in 1895 - Peresvet and Oslyabya. And this is not counting the bookmarks of three coastal defense battleships of the Admiral Senyavin type, which, in addition to solving traditional tasks for this class of ships, was also expected to support the main forces in a general battle with the German fleet.

In other words, the Russian fleet sought to create armored squadrons for a general battle, and of course, such squadrons required ships to ensure their actions. In other words, the Russian Imperial Navy needed reconnaissance in the squadrons - it was this role that armored cruisers could perform quite successfully.

However, here, alas, dualism, which largely predetermined the development of our fleet at the end of the 19 century, said its weighty word. Creating the Baltic Fleet, Russia wanted to get a classic “two in one”. On the one hand, forces were needed that could give a general battle to the German fleet and establish domination in the Baltic. On the other hand, a fleet was needed that could go out into the ocean and threaten British communications. These tasks completely contradicted each other, since solving them required different types of ships: for example, the armored cruiser Rurik was perfect for ocean raiding, but was completely out of place in a linear battle. Strictly speaking, Russia needed a linear fleet to dominate the Baltic and, separately, a second cruising fleet for the war in the ocean, but, of course, the Russian empire could not even build two fleets for economic reasons. Hence the desire to create ships capable of equally efficiently fighting enemy squadrons and cruising in the ocean: a similar trend affected even the main force of the fleet (Peresvet series “battleships-cruisers”), so it would be strange to think that armored fighters would not be delivered similar task.

Strictly speaking, this is exactly what the requirements for the domestic armored cruiser were defined. He was supposed to be a scout in the squadron, but at the same time also a ship fit for ocean cruising.

Russian admirals and shipbuilders at that time did not consider themselves “ahead of the rest,” therefore, when creating a new type of ship, they paid very close attention to ships of similar purpose, built by the “Lady of the Seas” - England. What happened in England? In 1888-1895 Misty Albion built a large number of armored cruisers of the 1 and 2 class.

At the same time, ships of the 1 class, strange as it may sound, were the "heirs" of armored cruisers of the "Orlando" type. The fact is that, in the opinion of the British, these armored cruisers did not justify the hopes pinned on them, because of the overload, their armor belt went under water, not protecting the waterline from damage, and in addition, in England, the post of chief builder was occupied by William White, the opponent of armored cruisers. Therefore, instead of improving this class of ships, England in 1888 began the construction of large 1 rank armored cruisers, the first of which were Blake and Blenheim - huge ships with a displacement of 9150-9260 t carrying a very powerful armor deck (76 mm, and on bevels - 152 mm), strong armament (2 * 234-mm, 10 * 152-mm, 16 * 47-mm) and developing a very high speed for that time (up to 22 knots).


Armored Cruiser "Blake"


However, these ships seemed overly expensive to their lordships, so the next series of X-Numx Edgar-class cruisers mounted on the stocks in the 8-1889 were less displacement (1890-7467) and speed (7820 / 18,5 knots on the natural / forced thrust and armor (bevel thickness decreased from 20 to 152 mm).

All of these ships were formidable fighters, but, in essence, they were cruisers not for a squadron service, but to protect ocean communications, that is, they were “trade defenders” and “raider killers”, and as such were not too good for Russian fleet. In addition, their development brought the British to a standstill - in an effort to create ships capable of intercepting and destroying armored cruisers of the Rurik and Russia type, the British in 1895 r laid the armored "Powerful" and "Terribl", which had a full displacement over 14 thousand. m. The creation of ships of similar dimension (and cost), without vertical armor, was an obvious nonsense.

Therefore, the English cruisers of the 2 class, which had similar functionality, that is, could serve in squadrons and carry overseas service, were considered analogous to the newest Russian armored cruisers.

Starting in 1889-1890 The UK laid as much as the 22 Apollo-type armored cruisers built in two subseries. The first 11 ships of this type had a displacement of about 3 400 and did not carry the copper-wood plating of the underwater part, slowing down the fouling of the ships, while their speed was 18,5 knot during natural thrust and 20 knots when boilers were forced. The following Apollo-type 11 cruisers had copper-wood paneling, which increased their displacement to 3 600 t, and lowered the speed (on natural thrust / forced) to 18 / 19,75 nodes, respectively. The booking and armament of the cruisers of both sub-series was the same - armored 31,75-50,8 mm, 2 * 152-mm, 6 * 120-mm, 8 * 57-mm cannons, 1 * 47-mm cannons and four 356-mm torpedo tubes.

The following British armored cruisers, the 8 of the Astraea type ships, laid down in the 1891-1893, became Apollo's development, and, according to the British themselves, not a very successful development. Their displacement increased by almost 1 000 t., Reaching 4 360 t, but the additional weights were spent on subtle improvements - the reservation remained at the same level, the armament "grew" only on 2 * 120-mm guns, and the speed dropped further, making 18 knots on natural thrust and 19,5 knots when forced. However, it was they who served as the prototype for the creation of a new series of British armored cruisers of the 2 class.

In 1893-1895 The British lay 9 cruisers of the Eclipse type, which we called the “Talbot” type (the same Talbot who served as a stationary officer on the Chemulpo road together with the Varyag cruiser). These were much larger ships, the normal displacement of which reached 5 600 t. They were protected by a somewhat more solid armored hull (38-76 mm) and they carried more solid armament - 5 * 152-mm, 6 * 120-mm, 8 * 76-mm mm and 6 * 47-m guns, as well as 3 * 457-mm torpedo tubes. At the same time, the speed of Eclipse-type cruisers was frankly modest - 18,5 / 19,5 knots with natural / forced thrust.

So, what conclusions did our admirals, watching the development of the class of armored cruisers in the UK?

Initially, a competition for a cruiser project was announced, and this was exclusively among domestic designers. They were asked to submit ship designs up to 8 000 and displacement, at a speed not lower than 19 knots. and artillery that included 2 * 203-mm (in extremities) and 8 * 120-mm guns. Such a cruiser for those years looked excessively large and strong for the scout during the squadron, it remains only to assume that the admirals, knowing the characteristics of the 1-class English armored cruisers, thought about the ship capable of withstanding them in battle. But despite the fact that in the course held in 1894-1895. very interesting projects were obtained (7 200 - 8 000 t, 19 knots, 2-3 * 203-mm guns and up to 9 * 120-mm guns), they did not receive further development: it was decided to focus on the British 2 cruiser XNUMX th rank.

At the same time, it was originally planned to focus on the Astreya-class cruisers, with the mandatory achievement of 20 nodal speed and "possibly larger area of ​​operation." However, almost immediately a different suggestion arose: engineers of the Baltiysky Zavod presented MTK with preliminary designs for cruisers with a displacement of 4 400, 4 700 and 5 600 t. All of them had 20 knots and an 63,5 mm thick armored deck, 2XXXXXXXX mm differed only in weapons, X-XXXXXXX, and 152XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX7XX0 8 * 120-mm on the first, 2 * 203-mm and 8 * 120-mm on the second and 2 * 203-mm, 4 * 152-mm, 6 * 120-mm on the third. The note attached to the projects explained:

"The Baltic Shipyard retreated from the British cruiser Astraea, which was prescribed as an analogue, since it is not the most advantageous type among the other newest cruisers of different nations."


Then, the Eclipse-class cruisers were chosen for the “role model”, but then the data on the French armored cruiser “D'Antrcasto” (7 995 t., 2 * 240-mm armament in one-tower towers and 12 * 138-mm , speed 19,2 knots). As a result, a new draft of the cruiser with a displacement of 6 000 t, speed of 20 units and weapons from 2 * 203-mm and 8 * 152-mm was proposed. Alas, soon, by the will of General-Admiral, the ship lost 203-mm guns for the sake of uniformity of calibers and ... so began the history of the creation of domestic armored cruisers of the type “Diana”.



I must say that the design of this series of domestic cruisers was an excellent illustration of where the road paved with good intentions leads. In theory, the Russian Imperial fleet was to receive a series of excellent armored cruisers, in many ways, superior to the British. The armored deck of a single 63,5 mm thickness provided, at a minimum, equivalent protection with the English 38-76 mm. Ten 152-mm guns were preferable to 5 * 152-mm, 6 * 120-mm English ship. In this case, "Diana" was supposed to be significantly faster "Eclipse" and the thing was this.

Tests of warships of the Russian fleet did not provide for the forcing of boilers, the Russian ships were supposed to show the contract speed on natural thrust. This is a very important point, which is usually overlooked by the compilers of reference books of the ship staff (and, alas, the readers of these reference books are behind them). So, for example, data is usually given that Eclipse developed 19,5 nodes, and this is true, but it doesn’t indicate that this speed was reached when boilers were forced. At the same time, the contract speed of “Diana” is only half a knot higher than that of “Eclipse”, and in fact cruisers of this type were able to develop only 19-19,2 knots. From this we can assume that the Russian cruisers turned out to be even less fast than their English “prototype”. But in fact, their “goddess” speed 19 knots were developed on a natural thrust, at which the Eclipse speed was only 18,5 knots, that is, our cruisers, for all their flaws, were nevertheless fast.

But back to the project "Diana". As we said earlier, their defense was supposed to be no worse, the artillery was better, and the speed was one and a half more units than the British Eclipse-class cruisers, but that was not all. The fact is that on the Eclipses there were fire tube boilers, while it was planned to install water pipe boilers on Diana, and this gave our ships a number of advantages. The fact is that fire-tube boilers require much more time for distributing vapors, it is much more difficult to change operating modes for them, and this is important for warships, and besides - flooding the compartment with a working fire-tube boiler would most likely cause it to explode, threatened the ship with immediate death (in contrast to the flooding of one compartment). Water tube boilers were deprived of these disadvantages.

The Russian fleet was one of the first to switch to water tube boilers. According to the research results of the Maritime Department experts, it was decided to use the Belleville boilers, and the first tests of these boilers (in 1887 g the Minin armored frigate was re-equipped) showed quite acceptable technical and operational characteristics. It was believed that these boilers were extremely reliable, and the fact that they were very heavy at the same time was perceived as an inevitable payment for other advantages. In other words, the Maritime Department realized that there are boilers of other systems in the world, including those that allowed it to provide the same power with significantly less weight than Belleville boilers, but all this was not tested, and therefore it was in doubt. Accordingly, when creating the Diana type armored cruisers, the requirement to install Belleville boilers was completely peremptory.

However, heavy boilers are not at all the best choice for a high-speed (even if relatively high-speed) armored cruiser. The weight of the Dian machines and mechanisms amounted to utterly unmatched 24,06% of their normal displacement! Even the Novik, which was built later, was widely spoken of as the “destroyer in 3 000 T” and the “car cover”, whose fighting qualities were obviously sacrificed for speed — and the weight of cars and boilers was only Only 21,65% of normal displacement!

In their final version, armored cruisers of the “Diana” type had 6 731 t of normal displacement, developed 19-19,2 ties and carried armament from only eight 152-mm guns. Without a doubt, they were extremely unfortunate ships. But it is difficult to blame the shipbuilders for this — the supermassive power plant simply did not leave them the weights to achieve the other planned ship characteristics. Of course, the existing boilers and cars were not suitable for the high-speed cruiser, and even the admirals “distinguished themselves” by sanctioning the weakening of the already weak weapons for the sake of cheap economy of weights. And, what is the most offensive, all those sacrifices that were made for the power plant did not make the ship fast. Yes, despite the failure to reach contract speed, they were probably still faster than the British Eclipses. But the problem was that the “Lady of the Seas” didn’t often build really good ships (just the British knew how to fight them well), and the armored cruisers of this series certainly cannot be called successful. Strictly speaking, neither the 18,5 nodes of Eclipse nor the 20 of Diana's contract nodes in the second half of the 90 of the 19 century were not sufficient to carry out a reconnaissance service during a squadron. And the eight-open six-inch armaments looked ridiculous against the two 210-mm and eight 150-mm cannons located in the casemates and turrets of the Germanic Victoria-Louise-type cruisers - it was with such cruisers that the Dianes would have to fight in the Baltic in case of war with Germany ...

In other words, an attempt to create an armored cruiser, capable of performing the functions of a scout during a squadron and, at the same time, “pirating” in the ocean in the event of war with England, was a fiasco. Moreover, the inadequacy of their characteristics was clear even before the cruisers entered service.

Diana-type cruisers were laid (officially) in 1897. A year later, a new shipbuilding program was developed that took into account the threat of a sharp increase in Japan: it was assumed to damage the Baltic Sea fleet (and while maintaining the pace of construction of the Black Sea) to create a strong Pacific Fleet capable of leveling the nascent Japanese naval power. At the same time, the MTC (under the leadership of the General-Admiral) determined the technical assignments for four classes of ships: squadron battleships with a displacement of about 13 000 tons, X-grade 1-2 reconnaissance cruiser with displacements of 6 000 t, dispatchers of the vessel or 2 cruisers and one of them, or a 3 cruiser, or their weight, 000 350, or the XNUMX cruiser, or the XNUMX cruiser, or their dispatchers, or the XNUMX cruiser, or their weight, or the XNUMX cruiser, or their weight, or the XNUMX cruiser, or their dispatchers. in XNUMX XNUMX t and destroyers in XNUMX t.

Regarding the creation of 1-grade armored cruisers, the Maritime Department took a reasonable and reasonable step - since the creation of such ships on our own did not lead to success, then an international competition should be announced and ordered the lead ship abroad, and then replicated it in domestic shipyards, thus strengthening the fleet and gaining advanced shipbuilding experience. Therefore, significantly higher competitors were put up for competition than Diana-type cruisers, tactical and technical characteristics - MTK formed a task to the ship, 6 000 ton displacement, node 23 speed and twelve 152-mm armament mm guns. The thickness of the armor deck was not asked (of course, it should have been present, but the rest remained at the discretion of the designers). The conning tower was supposed to have an 75 mm reservation, and the vertical protection of the elevators (feeding ammunition to the guns) and chimney bases - 152 mm. The coal reserve should have been at least 38% of the normal displacement, the cruising range should be at least 12 5 nautical miles. Metacentric height was also established with a full supply of coal (no more than 000 m), but the main dimensions of the ship remained at the discretion of the contestants. And yes, our specialists continued to insist on using Belleville boilers.

As you can see, this time the MTC was not guided by any of the existing ships of other fleets of the world, but sought to create an unparalleled, highly powerful and high-speed cruiser of moderate displacement. In determining the performance characteristics, it was deemed necessary to ensure superiority over the “Elsvik” cruisers: as follows from the “Maritime Office Report for 1897 — 1900”, domestic X-grade 1 armored cruisers had to be built: “by the type of Armstrong high-speed cruisers, but superior their displacement (6000 t instead of 4000 t), speed (23 node instead of 22-x) and the duration of the test at full speed increased to 12 hours. ” At the same time, 12-guns with 152-mm guns guaranteed him superiority over any English or Japanese armored cruiser of similar or lower displacement, and the speed allowed him to escape from larger and better armed ships of the same class (“Edgar”, “Powerful”, “ D'Antrkasto "etc.)

In fact, this is how the story of the creation of the Varyag cruiser begins. And here dear readers may wonder - why even write such a long introduction, instead of going straight to the point? The answer is very simple.

As we know, the competition for the projects of 1-grade armored cruisers was held in 1898. Everything seemed to be done on the thumb - many offers from foreign companies, the choice of the best project, its refinement, contract, construction ... How could it be so! Instead of the boring routine of a streamlined process, the creation of the Varyag turned into a real detective story. Which began with the fact that the contract for the design and construction of this cruiser was signed before the competition. Moreover, at the time of signing the contract for the construction of the Varyag, no cruiser project existed yet in nature!

The fact is that shortly after the competition was announced, the head of the American shipbuilding firm William Crump, Mr. Charles Crump, arrived in Russia. He didn’t bring any projects with him, but at the most reasonable price he was taken to build the best warships in the world, including two squadron battleships, four armored cruisers with a displacement of 6 000 and 2 500, and also 30 destroyers. In addition to the above, Charles Crump was ready to build a plant in Port Arthur or Vladivostok, where the 20 destroyers from the above 30 were to be assembled.

Of course, no one gave such a “piece of cake” to Charles Crump, but 11 of April 1898 of r, that is, before the competitive projects of armored cruisers were reviewed by ITC, the head of the American company on the one hand, and Vice-Admiral V. P Verkhovsky (the head of the GUKiS) on the other, signed a contract for the construction of a cruiser, which later became Varyag. At the same time, there was no draft cruiser - it was still to be developed in accordance with the “Preliminary Specifications”, which became an annex to the contract.

In other words, instead of waiting for the development of the project, review it, make adjustments and corrections, as was always done, and only then sign the construction contract, the Maritime Department, in fact, bought a “cat in a bag” - it signed a contract providing the development by Charles Crump of the cruiser project on the basis of the most common technical task. How did C. Crump manage to convince V.P. Verkhovsky that he is able to develop the best project of all that will be submitted to the competition, and that the contract should be signed as soon as possible, so as not to lose precious time?

Speaking frankly, all of the above indicates whether some kind of childlike naive admiral V.P. Verkhovsky, or about the fantastic gift of persuasion (on the verge of magnetism), which Charles Crump possessed, but most of all makes you think about the existence of a certain corruption component of the contract. It is very likely that some kind of arguments from a reviving American industrialist were extremely powerful (for any bank account) and were able to rustle in the hands of pleasure. But ... not caught - not a thief.

Anyway, the contract was signed. What happened next ... let's say, there are polar points of view, starting from “brilliant industrialist Kramp, struggling through the bureaucracy of tsarist Russia, building a first-class cruiser of breathtaking qualities” totally worthless ship. " So, in order to impartially understand the events that took place more than 100 years ago, a respected reader must necessarily imagine the history of the development of armored cruisers in the Russian Empire, at least in the very shortened form in which it was presented in this article .



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155 comments
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  1. +3
    29 May 2018 06: 15
    Everyone can go around the curb ... Five meters at least .... And if it is ten meters high ... Decisions made on the couch ... This is not at all what is being done under artillery shelling ...
  2. +9
    29 May 2018 06: 15
    ... a look at the feat of the "Varyag" ...

    Very happy that the word featwithout quotes. Thank you for the article.
  3. +12
    29 May 2018 06: 48
    Super! good
    Especially respect for the 3rd paragraph Yes With this, your articles also bribe me personally - for expressing my opinion without trying to impose it around. hi And also a good writing style and quite a good evidence base based on common sense makes you one of the most interesting authors on VO.
    For me personally, the fight at Chemulpo is an example of courage (all the same, it costs a lot to go against a obviously superior opponent). I just have a lot of questions regarding the actions of Rudnev and the conduct of the battle itself, as well as the conclusions after it. All the same, the information that exists along with the official one makes us look at some things differently. Because today there is such a scatter regarding the "Varyag".
    I very much hope that in the cycle of your articles I will find simple logical explanations for actions in battle that cause skeptical questions.
    Best regards hi
    1. +6
      29 May 2018 15: 48
      Rurikovich, you got ahead of me, you yourself wanted to say: Andrei + for not trying to pronounce a sentence: "Rudnev is a traitor or a fool." One feels that a person loves and knows his material.
      We need such materials on the site
    2. +6
      29 May 2018 17: 03
      Greetings, dear Andrew!
      Quote: Rurikovich
      I very much hope that in the cycle of your articles I will find simple logical explanations for actions in battle that cause skeptical questions.

      We will try :)))))
  4. +6
    29 May 2018 08: 07
    "This series of articles, of course, will not dot the" i ". But we will try to bring together information about the history of the design, construction and service of the cruiser to Chemulpo, inclusive ..."
    Actually, a lot has been written about Varyag. And in this regard, I would like to see the historiography of the issue at the beginning of the article. Who, how, and on the basis of what examined his story. That is, on what information platform does the author stand on his predecessors. In order to compare what is new by this cycle or what new, previously unknown sources the author used. If this is a retelling of Melnikov’s book, then this is of little use ...
    1. +3
      29 May 2018 15: 58
      V. Oh, you have directly advanced the conditions for writing a scientific work. And you name a lot of authors that meet similar requirements?
      In the words of my teacher: "more" commemoration "and impudence." Eh, where are you student time?
      1. +2
        29 May 2018 17: 35
        If he didn’t write well, I wouldn’t offer such a thing. And then the material is well served, interesting. Why not make it even more interesting if the author is "well on topic"? The scientific work needs links. The presence of historiography is not yet "scientific."
  5. +4
    29 May 2018 08: 25
    Greetings Andrew! Well, what was waiting for this cycle you recently promised. It will be interesting to look at your findings on the machine-boiler group, and Rudnev’s actions. The cycle promises a lot of holivar, so you need to stock up on popcorn and validol. I feel that on some issues we have opposing points of view. hi
    1. +5
      29 May 2018 08: 57
      Quote: Nehist
      It will be interesting to look at your findings on the machine boiler group,

      Interesting will be later. The same mistakes will be repeated in the destroyers of the Mulgraben shipyard. See Stepanov, Tsvetkov. The design documentation for the construction of destroyers, the company "Shihau" developed carelessly, not meeting the technical specifications for the design. Apparently, if the ships of the Mulgraben shipyard were built, then the “novices” could not have retained the title of the best destroyer destroyers in the world.
      The main drawback of the project was the low longitudinal strength of the hull, the absence of a second bottom in the bow boiler room and turbine compartments, and a small navigation area compared to destroyers of other plants {201}. The weakest point of the hull was the junction of the aft boiler and bow turbine compartments, where the voltage exceeded the permissible ones. This reduced the seafaring qualities of the destroyer and raised concerns about the possibility of breaking the hull on the wave.
      The Ministry of the Sea followed the lead of the Mülgraben Shipyard and, instead of demanding drastic measures to increase the longitudinal strength of the ship, agreed to strengthen the horizontal keel and stringers of the upper deck {202}
      And the first lesson was at Varyag when stringers were used instead of the foundations of steam engines. That is why there were constant problems with the frame bearings of the machines, and because of subsidence and bends of the crankshafts, the crank bearings of the pistons failed. To read this you need to find the very first edition of R. Melnikov's "Cruiser Varyag"
      1. +2
        29 May 2018 09: 18
        You want to say what exactly because of this artificially limited the power of Varyag machines?
        1. +13
          29 May 2018 10: 00
          Quote: Nehist
          You want to say what exactly because of this artificially limited the power of Varyag machines?

          Yes. In principle, no matter the steam engine or the crosshead marine diesel engine of high power, they are created according to the same scheme and without a crankcase, if the bearings are mounted directly on the stringers, the bending moments of the body will act not on the machine frame, but on the K / V shaft bearings. That is why knocks constantly occurred and bearings warmed up. Before sending to Chemulpo, on Varyag, not only all the bearing shims were removed, but also the yoke was cut.

          The problems were compounded by the fact that there was no skilled workforce.
          Well, in the figure, the foundation frame looks like this. Having abandoned the foundation frames, Crump won the weight of the body
          1. +3
            29 May 2018 11: 24
            Quote: Amurets
            Well, in the figure, the foundation frame looks like this. Having abandoned the foundation frames, Crump won the weight of the body


            Extremely, very technically competent comment!
            My respect, dear Nicholas.
      2. +2
        29 May 2018 16: 05
        Nikolay, thanks for the expanded comment. I have repeatedly said that I appreciate interesting materials with additional comments. It happens from komentov learn more
  6. +4
    29 May 2018 09: 30
    The author writes interestingly, but the further course of the articles is already guessed - they are kicking these import Kramp and Nikloss for all the troubles of the Russian fleet :)

    The hint of corruption brought by this Kramp to the crystal clear ranks of Russian shipbuilders of that time has become simply an obligatory element in all articles about Retvisan or Varyag.
    In fact, if we went along the usual path, then, go on, unless by 1905 the project was agreed (and then also redone, as usual) :)
    But Kramp built quickly, which was then extremely required to such an extent that the Tsesarevich was taken into operation without the main caliber of the French, despite the fact that the French had been building for more than three years, and Kramp was two. Ships to the Pacific Ocean were then needed “just yesterday” - that’s the whole explanation of “corruption”.
    1. +5
      29 May 2018 11: 27
      Quote: Avior
      but the further course of the articles is already guessed - they’ll hit these import Kramp and Nikloss for all the troubles of the Russian fleet :)

      (silent and smiling)
      Quote: Avior
      In fact, if we went along the usual path, then, go, except that by the 1905 year the project was agreed

      Following the usual path, we got to the beginning of the REV Askold and Bogatyr in the Pacific Ocean.
      1. +5
        29 May 2018 12: 27
        Knowledge is power! Afterglow is a great power! wink
        Askold, it seems, they began to build according to the 1895 program of the year, in 1896 they appointed the chief supervisor for the construction of Askold and Bogatyr de Grofe - oh, miraculously, Askold went into operation in 1902, 7 years after the adoption of the program.
        The Varangian, who was built according to the program of 1898, clearly did not have time for this approach to the RNE, even if they read VO and knew exactly the date of its beginning winked
        Well, allusions to the corrupt talents of Kramp just came into fashion-
        What played the main role here - the personal charm of an overseas guest, his generous promises or bribes by "greyhound puppies" - is now impossible to find out.

        it's about retweesan. This trend has become simple. smile
        1. +3
          29 May 2018 13: 45
          Quote: Avior
          Askold, it seems, they began to build according to the 1895 program of the year, in 1896 they appointed the chief supervisor for the construction of Askold and Bogatyr de Grofe - oh, miraculously, Askold went into operation in 1902, 7 years after the adoption of the program.

          A small amendment - Akold's project won the 1898 contest - the very contest that Crump did not want to get :) :)))) And the construction of Askold began in October of 1898
          1. +1
            29 May 2018 15: 16
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            A small correction - Akold's project won the competition in 1898 - the very competition that Kramp did not want to fall into


            Kramp did not need to participate in this competition. In early March 1898, he received an invitation from the Maritime Department to participate in technical consultations on the construction of warships for the Russian fleet.
            1. +3
              29 May 2018 17: 05
              Quote: 27091965i
              Kramp did not need to participate in this competition

              Honestly, I don’t know how to interpret this. Given the fact that he was allowed to not participate in it - yes, it was not :)))
              Quote: 27091965i
              In early March 1898, he received an invitation from the Maritime Department to participate in technical consultations on the construction of warships for the Russian fleet.

              This does not preclude participation in the competition and does not cancel its necessity
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. +2
                29 May 2018 20: 34
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                This does not preclude participation in the competition and does not cancel its necessity


                If you focus on the letters and memoirs of Crump in 1897, he provided assistance to the Naval Office in England. In particular, in the inspection and familiarization of the naval engineer of Chernigov P.E. with Japanese ships under construction in England. In addition, in the years 1894-1896 he conducted a rather lively correspondence with the Naval Office on the construction of ships.
          2. +1
            31 May 2018 08: 32
            He won without waiting for the end of the competition.
            Then another one won - Bogatyr.
            In the same competition.
            The conduct of which cannot be called "the usual order."
            Just take offers as they become available. Simply, Crump was the first to offer and was verified.
      2. +2
        29 May 2018 12: 56
        By the way, about the time machine and afterlife
        Andrey from Chelyabinsk (Andrey) March 13, 2012 12:28 ↑
        And it was necessary for Rudnev to take a time machine, fly into the future and see that ours would lose the Russian-Japanese war, and the Japanese would be raising the Varyag.

        wink
    2. BAI
      +1
      29 May 2018 13: 02
      And what should we see from the photograph presented? What French ships are more expensive than Russian? What is the cruiser "Varyag" more expensive than the battleship "Retvisan"? What is the conclusion about corruption?
      And in general - what are these figures about? The order (dimension) of the numbers is very strange:
      Initially, the cost of a ship without weapons was estimated at 2138000 dollars or 4233240 rubles. (V.I. Kataev, Cruiser Varyag, Moscow, Arsenal Collection, 2008, p. 9).

      At the same time, according to the information on page 10 of this book, Kramp made additional payments for work not covered by the contract, in particular, for installing firing control dials, elevators, ammunition supply monorails, replacing armor deck material, which could amount to 0,5 million . rub. (estimated).

      Given these payments and the cost of weapons, the total cost of the cruiser was 6,0 million rubles. (V.Ya. Krestyaninov, S.V. Molodtsov, "Cruiser Askold").

      And in the photo - 20 something. I would suggest that pounds, but 000 pound = 1 dollars?
      1. 0
        29 May 2018 13: 22
        In fact, the photo shows the power of cars
        1. BAI
          +1
          29 May 2018 13: 58
          Then what is the relationship between machine power and corruption?
          And the power of the Retvisan - there is 16000 data, there are 17600. And now 15000?
          1. +3
            29 May 2018 14: 07
            Like Krump, Nicholas set the boilers for a bribe and they are so bad that nobody used them. In the photo, ships of different countries that used Nicholas boilers are listed. So the statement that Nicholas’s boilers are bad is fundamentally wrong
          2. +1
            29 May 2018 17: 13
            Quote: BAI
            Then what is the relationship between machine power and corruption?
            And the power of the Retvisan - there is 16000 data, there are 17600. And now 15000?

            And it depends on what to measure. Many Russian and Soviet sources stupidly copied each other without bothering to check the primary sources, where the power could be indicated in the indicator forces and could also be in the national ones, which are known to differ from each other. And in general, as you can see from the photo, this is a brochure for this absolute accuracy you do not have to wait from him
  7. +2
    29 May 2018 10: 07
    Andrey, thanks for the article. The beginning is interesting. but there is a question
    "The weight of Dian machines and mechanisms amounted to absolutely outrageous 24,06% of their normal displacement!"
    and what's wrong? the question is why these 24% did not provide normal driving performance and why it all ended in zilch of 8 six-inch ...
    1. +2
      29 May 2018 11: 31
      Quote: Andy
      and what's wrong?

      That it is VERY much. A ship (roughly) is a hull and payload (boilers, cars, equipment, armor weapons). If there are a lot of boilers and cars, there is no more weight for the rest. It’s not surprising that Novik carried only 6 * 120-mm guns, right?
      Quote: Andy
      another question is why these 24% did not provide normal driving performance

      There are a number of factors, not just cars.
      Quote: Andy
      and why it all ended up zilch in 8 six-inch ...

      Well, strictly speaking, 8 with six inches everything started, but ended with 14 :)))))
      1. +2
        29 May 2018 12: 01
        Andrey, you have explained simple truths. and about 14 After the rearmament, we know. but they fought with 8 ... I wrote that there was no effect even to the detriment of weapons and armor. that is 24% wasted. further, if everything was eaten up by machines, then where were 6 more guns placed during rearmament? the project itself was initially defective - 32 useless but having weight and taking up small things ... the next question is what is wrong with Novik and his 120mm guns. it meets its performance characteristics with the requirements of a mine cruiser (there was such a class at the end of the 19th century). decent weapons and speed to support their destroyers. that he became a cruiser of rank 2 ... well, the first went from Aurora and Svetlana to Rurik and Thunderhead. it’s not the ship that’s to blame, but the classification. Diamond is also a second-rank cruiser ...
        1. +4
          29 May 2018 21: 59
          then where did 6 guns be put during rearmament

          In place 75mm

          it meets its performance characteristics with the requirements of a mine cruiser (there was such a class at the end of 19в).

          That was the class. Here are just a “Novik” to him no side.
          and what's wrong with Novik and his 120mm guns

          Nothing but the fact that almost any classmate of similar displacement surpassed him in firepower.
      2. Alf
        +1
        29 May 2018 19: 20
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Well, strictly speaking, 8 with six inches everything started, but ended with 14 :)))))

        The logic of our admirals is not entirely clear. 8 dm removed for relief. Clear. But what was the point of leaving the main caliber to leave 8 (EIGHT) six-inch with a huge number of 3-inch cannons (20 pcs). Wanted to reduce firepower?
        1. +4
          29 May 2018 21: 07
          Quote: Alf
          But what was the point of leaving the main caliber to leave 8 (EIGHT) six-inch with a huge number of 3-inch cannons (20 pcs). Wanted to reduce firepower?

          Initially, the weapons of the "goddesses" assumed 6 * 152mm, 6 * 120mm and 22 * ​​47mm. But subsequently, in view of the changing views on the conduct of the battle and the ever-increasing size of the destroyers, it was expedient to replace 22 farts with more solid 20 * 75mm guns, which owing to their comparable speed with the replaceable 47mm guns and good flatness and range (for the end of the 19th century ) could constitute a threat to comparable cruisers ("German" Herts "). Therefore, at the time of laying the armament was already approved in the form of 10 * 152mm and 24 * 75mm. Then, due to an overload of about 180 tons, they did not think of anything better than to reduce 8. the number of GK trunks, and since the cruisers were designed as “trade fighters”, they didn’t see anything prejudicial, because removing overload due to range (coal and provisions) is already contrary to the concept, which is why the 6700 tons cruiser has such a ridiculous composition armament. Polenov "Cruiser Aurora"
          1. Alf
            +2
            29 May 2018 21: 58
            Again, it is not clear why they cut the 6-dm and kept the 75 mm.
            1. +4
              30 May 2018 00: 14
              The 152 mm Kane gun weighed 5815-6290 kg,
              The 75 mm Kane gun weighed 879–910 kg.
              1. Alf
                +1
                30 May 2018 17: 57
                Quote: Cannonball
                The 152 mm Kane gun weighed 5815-6290 kg,
                The 75 mm Kane gun weighed 879–910 kg.

                You are mistaken, dear! You have given the weight data for the 75/50 Canne barrel with a lock. The total weight of the gun mount with a shield of 4000 kg, which somewhat changes the matter. The total weight of the 152 mm installation is 14700 kg.
                Those. by reducing the number of 3-dm guns, the number of six-inch guns could be brought to 11. And the damaging effect of a 6-dm projectile with a 3-dm projectile is not even worth comparing. And the range of effective fire also varies greatly.
                1. +4
                  30 May 2018 18: 26
                  And you still do not forget about the weight of reinforcements, ammunition and equipment of the cellars. Then the ratio will be approximately 7,8 tons (75-mm Kane) to 38,4 tons (152-mm Kane). The difference is 5 times. Those. only in order to return six inches to the 2, you will need to remove 10-mm from the ship. Figures at one time derived from various sources, some of them are in the EMNIP Encyclopedia on the Bayans from EXMO.
                2. +1
                  30 May 2018 21: 13
                  I won’t argue about weights, everything is clear here - 6 "is anyway several times heavier than a 75 mm gun. But I’ll argue about the need to increase the number of 6" to the detriment of a 75 mm gun.
                  Do not forget that 75 mm caliber guns are primarily a “mine caliber”, that is, a means of combating fast destroyers, torpedo gunboats and mine cruisers, where it is not so much the damaging effect of the projectile or effective fire range that is important, but the rate of fire and number of trunks.
                  Cruisers of the Diana type have an anti-mine caliber airborne salvo of 12 guns with a rate of fire of 12-15 rounds per minute. Those. 144-180 armor-piercing shells (high-explosive shells for these guns appeared after the Russo-Japanese) must meet the attacking destroyer every minute. By the way, the tabular firing range of her armor-piercing projectile was 6405 m. And at a distance of 915 m, they pierced 117 mm armor normal. This is about striking action.

                  Reducing the number of anti-mine guns would reduce the likelihood of defeating attacking destroyers, which increased the danger for both the cruiser itself and for other ships, which this cruiser should protect against destroyer attacks.

                  An increase in the number of 6 "guns to 11 versus 8 would lead to an increase in the side salvo from 5 to 6 guns, which would not have greatly increased the combat capabilities of the cruiser, which was not originally intended for linear squadron combat.

                  As for the 6 "Kane guns, with a firing range of 11500-15900 m, it had a rate of fire of 7-10 rounds per minute.

                  Well, to finish the "arguments for the 75 mm guns" wink it’s enough to recall the battle of “Varyag” in Chemulpo, where the minimum firing range ranged from 6200 m to 4800 m, that is, within the reach of 75 mm cannons.
                  1. Alf
                    +1
                    30 May 2018 21: 20
                    Good. Then why on other six thousandths the artillery component led to a more reasonable combination of 12 and 6-dm and 3-dm?
                    1. +2
                      30 May 2018 22: 12
                      First, the need arose to build an “answer to the Kaiser fleet,“ the equation of our naval forces with the German and the forces of the neighboring states adjacent to the Baltic, ”and by the end of 1896 the“ German threat ”had faded into the background and the urgent confrontation with Great Britain became more urgent. Therefore, ships with more powerful artillery were required. I’m not sure that the 12-6 "scheme is 12-75 mm more reasonable, but it gave some advantage over long distances to the detriment of close combat.
                      1. Alf
                        +1
                        30 May 2018 22: 45
                        That's it. Therefore, cruisers with more balanced artillery were created. And the appointment of Sleepy Goddesses, as I believe, was incomprehensible even to the creators themselves.
      3. +2
        30 May 2018 09: 12
        More precisely, not cars at all. The Japanese, lifting and restoring the Pallada, achieved a speed of 21 knots.
        To do this, they just needed to change the location of the variable cargo, after which the ship stopped burying its nose and showed its true speed. It is strange that the Japanese came up with this. Residents of a country that, quite shortly before, came out of self-isolation, and did not have such a maritime tradition as Russia.
        Although, I met information that the Aurora commander Egoriev had thought of this before, during the transition of the second squadron to the Far East.
        As for weapons, in the airborne salvo of the "goddess" had five guns of caliber 6 ", and the" Varyag "had six guns.
  8. +6
    29 May 2018 10: 30
    I thought that now I would like to advise anyone interested in the “good book of Melnikov” about the cruiser “Varyag” ... And it turns out that everyone already knows this way ... recourse Considering that, apart from Melnikov, I did not read anything worthy on this subject, I would have to shut up and turn into one big ear (in this case, one big eye looking at the monitor), waiting for the following materials. smile
    And, of course, thanks to the author. good smile
    1. +2
      29 May 2018 11: 32
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      And, of course, thanks to the author

      Thank you! drinks
      1. +1
        29 May 2018 13: 39
        Thank you, Andrey Nikolaevich !!! And again an interesting topic!

        But the question of "rivalry" something subsided ... and the third part about Derflinger I really look forward to))))
        1. +4
          29 May 2018 13: 46
          Quote: Trapper7
          But the question of "rivalry" something subsided ... and the third part about Derflinger I really look forward to))))

          This week will be on the main, on Sunday posted :)
          1. +1
            29 May 2018 13: 49
            Huge grandmersi)
  9. +3
    29 May 2018 10: 32
    About the corruption component of the contract for the construction of the "Varyag" - this is undoubtedly the author’s discovery. Even Rafail Melnikov, whom it is impossible to blame for sympathy for the tsar and tsarism, did not write about corruption, even during the Soviet era. And the author outlined the process of concluding a contract very slurredly, like some gatherings between Verkhovsky and Kramp, although such issues were not resolved without the "highest approval" and this issue was to be addressed in more detail.
    In general, if the author had already declared the creation of some kind of final work on Varyag, then it would be worth starting with a review of the components of this outcome, so to speak, the foundation, so that the reader can make sure that the house is not in the sand. There is no such confidence yet.
    1. +4
      29 May 2018 11: 25
      Quote: Curious
      About the corruption component of the contract for the construction of the "Varyag" - this is undoubtedly the author’s discovery

      And what does it consist of? :) That I indicated its possible presence? Since when have hypotheses been discovered?
      Quote: Curious
      Even Rafail Melnikov, whom it is impossible to blame for sympathy for the tsar and tsarism, did not write about corruption, even during the Soviet era.

      And what, excuse me, from that?
      Quote: Curious
      And the author himself outlined the process of concluding a contract very slurred

      It’s strange. As for me, I have not yet given any description of this process.
      Quote: Curious
      like some gatherings between Verkhovsky and Kramp, although such issues were not resolved without "the highest approval" and this issue was worth highlighting in more detail.

      The highest approval there were 7 pounds of August meat.
      Quote: Curious
      In general, if the author has declared the creation of a kind of final work on the "Varyag"

      ??? This is where, excuse me, did you read this from me? Of course, trying to reduce the description of everything from the beginning of design to the end of the cruiser’s service in one cycle of articles, I strive for maximum coverage of the materials, but lay claim to the TOTAL work ... I, you know, do not suffer from megalomania laughing
      Quote: Curious
      it would be worth starting with a review of the components of this outcome, the foundation, so to speak, so that the reader can make sure that the house is not in the sand.

      I don’t understand what it will give you. I’ll give you some of the main sources (I emphasize that this is by no means a complete list) - the Russian-Japanese war 1904-1905 (1912 edition), Melnikov, Polutov, Afonin, Abakus / Chornovil / Dotsenko (and where without all of them :)))), Koktsinsky, reports of Japanese commanders, Meiji, Surgical Description, and much more.
      Quote: Curious
      There is no such confidence yet.

      Do not consider it an insult, but my task is to write a good series of articles, and not to convince readers of its fundamental nature
      1. +3
        29 May 2018 12: 11
        OO and Chornovil with Abacus ?! I foresee very interesting discussions. If you take all the authors you cited and those materials that you did not list (which I guess), the controversy will be lively because the descriptions are very different. Well, if you also have the work of Rudnev himself (which is contradictory in itself) it will be very interesting
      2. +5
        29 May 2018 13: 12
        "Since when have hypotheses been discovered?"
        Category, by and large, does not change anything. "A hypothesis is not any guess, fantasy, assumption, but only a reasonable assumption that is based on specific facts or is the result of an analysis of factual material. Accordingly, the construction of a hypothesis is a conscious, logical, logical process." An unproven and unrebutted hypothesis is called an open problem. That is, in the future you must take care of the proof of the hypothesis put forward. Otherwise, it’s notgive maximum information ", and open another problematic issue, which the topic has already been instructed abound.
        "Even Rafail Melnikov, who cannot be blamed for sympathy for the tsar and tsarism, didn’t write about corruption, even during the Soviet era.
        And what, excuse me, from that? "
        - This phrase immediately casts doubt on your statement. "I, you know, have not yet suffered from megalomania."
        “I don’t understand what this will give you.”
        This will not only give me, but any reader will appreciate the level of research, articles, cycle - call it what you want. It is one thing if the cycle is based on the printed works of historians, naval theorists, shipbuilders, and participants. And it’s completely different when the sea is poured on the same basis as a “historical remake”.
        "Do not consider it an insult, but my task is to write a good series of articles ..."
        I never considered the discussion an insult, as well as criticisms. Everything rests on perception.
        1. +5
          29 May 2018 13: 54
          Quote: Curious
          Category, by and large, does not change anything.

          For me - changes. I hypothesize, not make a discovery
          Quote: Curious
          In accordance with this hypothesis construction is a conscious, logical, logical process. "

          Which will be presented in the next article.
          Quote: Curious
          - this phrase immediately casts doubt on your statement "I, you know, do not suffer from megalomania yet."

          That is, you believe that Melnikov fully disclosed the topic and nothing more can be added to it? Then I don’t understand why you are wasting your time reading my article :) If it’s not for you to object to Melnikov, but simply the fact that “Melnikov did not write about this” is already an occasion to suspect another person of megalomania ...
          Quote: Curious
          This will not only give me, but any reader will appreciate the level of research, articles, cycle - call it what you want.

          however, usually the bibliography is indicated not at the beginning, but at the end of the work :)))
          1. +4
            29 May 2018 14: 34
            "That is, you believe that Melnikov fully disclosed the topic and nothing more can be added to it?"
            No, I don’t think so. You can find a lot of shortcomings in Melnikov. Among them is a clear antipathy to tsarism and the ruling class of the Russian Empire. And taking into account the degree of elaboration of the topic, at the slightest clue he would not miss the opportunity to write about bribes. Moreover, in the USSR it was considered a duty to kick the stupid tsarist officials once again. In addition, for all its shortcomings, the level of Melnikov does not yet allow you, Andrei, for all your merits, excuse me for frankness, to use the phrase "So what." This is at least immodest.
            As for placing the bibliography at the end of the work, this does not in any way prevent the material from being preceded by a brief overview of the sources on which it is based.
            1. +4
              29 May 2018 17: 15
              Quote: Curious
              In addition, for all its shortcomings, the level of Melnikov does not yet allow you, Andrei, for all your merits, excuse me for frankness, to use the phrase "So what." This is at least immodest.

              Just the opposite. The fact is that Melnikov is a historian and as such is connected with the requirements of historical science. History (as a science) does not tolerate speculation. Only facts and their interpretation. So, there are no facts (at least, known, maybe they will later find out) that the same Verkhovsky took a bribe. Accordingly, R.M. Melnikov cannot write about this.
              And I can, because I do not pretend to be a scientist-historian. Accordingly, I am not bound by a scientific method and can express hypotheses (strictly stipulating that this is precisely the author’s hypothesis, no more) based on indirect evidence. In scientific work, such a number will not work.
              So the "immodesty" is actually explained simply - there are things that Jupiter cannot do, but which are allowed to the bull :))))
              1. +5
                29 May 2018 18: 27
                Then I agree with you. Moreover, I confess to some provocation on my part. I hope you are not offended. The fact is that And Melnikov, with the beginning of the "era of glasnost" spat on, as you say, the "scientific method." And from that time on, he no longer hesitates to kick and denounce the tsarist officials, including in the field of corruption, about which in his book “Glory”. The last battleship of the era of Dotsushima shipbuilding. (1901-1917) "is already written in plain text. True without evidence.
                I thought you had some new material on this issue and slightly “heated” the discussion, in the hope that you would open the curtain. But no, as they say, and there is no trial. If somewhere I used too harsh expressions, then they are aimed solely at the subject of the dispute, but not at the personality of the debater.
                1. +3
                  29 May 2018 18: 41
                  Quote: Curious
                  Moreover, I confess to some provocation on my part. I hope you do not take offense

                  No, I’m not offended, but I'm glad you said that, but ... at some point in our conversation, I felt like a soldier, on whose trench a tank was rolling :)))))
                  Quote: Curious
                  If somewhere I used too harsh expressions, then they are aimed solely at the subject of the dispute

                  Without any doubt hi
                  1. +3
                    29 May 2018 20: 57
                    Tank fear is the lot of soldiers who are not prepared for combined arms combat. A trained fighter skillfully applies all available means of attack and relying on a soldier against a tank and destroys enemy equipment.
                    1. +4
                      29 May 2018 21: 31
                      Quote: Curious
                      A trained fighter skillfully applies all available means of attack and relying on a soldier against a tank and destroys enemy equipment.

                      That's right. But this does not mean that a trained fighter experiences happy and infinitely positive emotions when he sees his tank attacking. laughing
                      1. +1
                        29 May 2018 21: 45
                        Running in tanks is one of the most interesting types of training personnel for viewing from the side.
        2. +5
          29 May 2018 16: 53
          Dear colleague, that you should be healthy, but if this hypothesis is a discovery, then it’s not Andrei Kolobov, and certainly not done today.
          Open the Maritime Collection for 1999 year and read
          But while the submitted projects according to all the rules were considered in the Marine Technical Committee (MTK), a contract with Kramp has already been signed! On 11 on April 1898, he was officially transferred an order for the construction of an armadillo in 12 000 tons and a cruiser in 6000 tons for a total amount of 6,5 million dollars. What played the main role here - the personal charm of an overseas guest, his generous promises or bribes by "greyhound puppies" - is now impossible to find out. But the fact remains: such an expensive agreement was bypassing all the accepted rules. The case for the Russian fleet of that time is very rare.

          If anything, Sergey Anatolyevich Balakin is quite respectable author.
  10. +4
    29 May 2018 11: 19
    The head of the American company, on the one hand, and Vice-Admiral V.P. Verkhovsky (head of the Main Directorate of Criminal Investigation), on the other hand, signed a contract for the construction of the cruiser, which later became the Varyag. At the same time, there was no cruiser project - it was yet to be developed in accordance with the “Preliminary Specifications”, which became an annex to the contract.

    No wonder - such contracts are called an “agreement of intent”, provide for the subsequent signing of specified specifications and serve to fix the approximate price and reserve production capacities for a certain time - this is normal for industries such as shipyards.
    In some cases, termination of such an agreement may be stipulated by fines, but its plus - the manufacturer does not have the right to unilaterally change the price.
    Crump dumped - like a good businessman, to attract such a famous "anchor" customer as RIF.
    1. +2
      29 May 2018 12: 13
      I agree with you. Moreover, Kramp had experience building warships
    2. +1
      29 May 2018 13: 55
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      No wonder - such contracts are called an “agreement of intent”

      Today :)))) But in those years it was something new, and one with which our admirals have not yet worked
      1. +1
        29 May 2018 14: 15
        Andrew! With all due respect. It was our admirals that didn’t work, and in Europe it was all the time. It is not necessary to consider RIF admirals quite conservative, especially when there is lobbying at the very top
        1. +1
          29 May 2018 14: 20
          Quote: Nehist
          It’s our admirals that didn’t work, and in Europe it was all around

          I ask you to give examples :)))
          1. 0
            29 May 2018 15: 08
            Piedmont! The task was posed to such a company was instructed to build the cruiser of the highest speed with the least displacement. Doesn’t it remind of anything? (The Maritime Department, in fact, bought a "pig in a poke" - it signed a contract providing for the development of a cruiser project by C. Kramp based on the most general technical task)
            1. 0
              29 May 2018 17: 20
              Quote: Nehist
              Piedmont! The task was posed to such a company was instructed to build the cruiser of the highest speed with the least displacement. Doesn't it remind you of anything?

              Nothing :)))) Are you talking about the armored "Piedmont"? so there EMNIP everything went as usual - interest, project development - a contract. Or I'm wrong?
              1. +2
                29 May 2018 18: 40
                What interest? Italy just had no capacity like Russia. Like Kramp and the Varangian, Watts was given only general TTX wishes so to speak. He, like Crump, using his best practices, designed and built the cruiser. In general, most who ordered ships abroad did not have their own projects. Father-in-law in advance concluded contracts for the design and construction of ships in advance by negotiating the approximate price and approximate performance characteristics. Well, or they acquired ready-made projects on which they built ships. By the way, when conducting contests, the approximate cost of the ship was also announced. The Japanese did not bother at all before the REV! They had a need for the EDB. They decided that the British would build them (and where would they go to give loans) and no competitions or projects
                1. +4
                  29 May 2018 19: 54
                  Quote: Nehist
                  The Japanese did not bother at all before the REV! They had a need for the EDB. They decided that the British would build them (and where would they go to give loans) and no competitions or projects

                  smile
                  It's one thing when a customer, driven by his interests and time, says: "We pay, and you build what you build for yourself (implying quality and speed), we will be happy ...
                  And another thing is when a bunch of foreheads are sitting and they themselves do not know what they need. Moreover, during the construction, making a bunch of changes unnerving the already stoned builder. That’s why the Japanese got their armadillos right at the beginning of the war (which will begin when they need it), and ours sorted out the types and terms HOPING that the war would begin when it suits us.
                  Different approaches - different results ... request hi
                  1. +1
                    29 May 2018 22: 06
                    When discussing how much and what is needed for the Far East, Admirals Dikov and Alekseev (the same governor) put forward sound ideas. I will say of course heresy, but Dikov proposed to order three Majestics from the British. And by 1903, three Poltava would receive three Relight and three Majestic. Well, Alekseev also put forward a good idea that is it better not to build a couple more EDB instead of 6000
                    1. +1
                      30 May 2018 12: 10
                      Uh ... but surely this would be Alekseev?
                      EMNIP it was the idea of ​​General Admiral VK Alexei, and not in the place of six thousandths, but instead of cruisers of the second rank.
                      The presiding Admiral General indicated that, in the event of an armed clash, "the main task will be faced by squadron battleships, contrary to the previously held view that harming the enemy trade by separately operating cruisers". Further, the chief of the fleet agreed with the need for armored deck reconnaissance cruisers with a displacement of 5000-6000 tons, one for each battleship, but doubted the need for cruisers in the 2000-2500 tons. Instead, the Admiral General proposed building one or two battleships.

                      And Alekseev offered to buy the cruiser from the Chinese
                      At the beginning of the XX century there was an opportunity to increase the composition of cruising forces in the Far East. On 12 on May 1901, the commander of the squadron in the Pacific, Vice Admiral Alekseev, informed him by telegram that, according to information received from a naval agent in Japan, the Chinese government wanted to secretly sell its five armored cruisers. Two of them - "Hi-Shi" and "Hi-Tien" 122, built in 1898 at the Armstrong plant in Elsvik, had a displacement of 4400 t, speed - 24 knots. The armament of each consisted of two 203-mm, ten 120-mm, 12 47-mm, four 37-mm guns, six machine guns and five surface torpedo tubes. The deck of the guarded armor had a thickness of 127-38 mm, the deckhouse was 152 mm. The other three cruisers - Hai-Sheng, Hai-Jung and Hai-Chen — were built by Vulcan in Stettin in 1897-1898. With a displacement of 3000 t, they had a contracted speed of 21 knot, but actually went no more than 19,5. Their armament: two 150-mm, eight 105-mm, six 37-mm guns, three torpedo tubes, armored deck - 75-40 mm, wheelhouse - 30 mm.
                      1. Alf
                        +2
                        30 May 2018 18: 10
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Two of them - “Hi-Shi” and “Hi-Tien” 122, built in 1898 at the Armstrong plant in Elsvik, had a displacement of 4400 tons, speed - 24 knots.

                        As for speed, obviously someone got excited.
                    2. Alf
                      +2
                      30 May 2018 18: 08
                      Quote: Nehist
                      And by 1903, three Poltava would receive three Relight and three Majestic.

                      It would be if the British undertook to build them in the light of the impending REV.
                      Quote: Nehist
                      Well, Alekseev also put forward a good idea that is it better not to build a couple more EDB instead of 6000

                      And they would have remained completely without light cruisers, and with armored vehicles in the RIF there was generally trouble-4 for two fleets.
                2. +2
                  29 May 2018 20: 11
                  I would not say that the Japanese did not bother at all. They also went crazy, some “Sims” are worth something, they just had less opportunity :)))
                  1. +4
                    29 May 2018 21: 35
                    hi
                    So, even though they were consistent, they received a more or less balanced composition of the main forces 6EBR +6 BrKr, which made it possible to use the capabilities of ships tactically with maximum characteristics.
                    If the Japanese didn’t use the chance they had created by themselves, starting the war in 1904, then by the end of 1905, thanks to their program, the Russians would have had a balanced squadron of 7 EDBs (Retvisan, Tsesarevich and 5 “Borodino”) plus a trio of “Peresvet”, which, in total, also made it possible to level armored cruisers, a detachment of relatively similar 6000n cruisers (“Bogatyr”, “Oleg”, “Askold” and “Varyag”) with “Bayan” allowed to "remove" a trinity of the Takasago type with the Ioshino, three large cruisers of the Rurik series with three "goddesses" completely allowed to delay some of the forces and act on communications. And the four close scouts (Boyar, Novik, Pearl and Emerald) would have completely strengthened the destroyers and guided the crouch on the variety of Japanese rank 3 cruisers.
                    But alas, the Japanese started earlier and coped with the diversity that opposed them .... request
                3. +1
                  29 May 2018 21: 43
                  Quote: Nehist
                  Italy just had no capacity like Russia. Like Kramp and Varangian Watts, they were given only general TTX wishes so to speak

                  After that, Watts prepared the project, coordinated it with the customer, and only after that, in fact, the cost part of the contract was formed, as far as I know.
                  Quote: Nehist
                  The Japanese did not bother at all before the REV!

                  Is that so? I can’t make such an impression on Belov’s text. First - the project, then - the cost. It’s hard for me to believe that the same British signed an agreement with the Japanese on XBR 8 000 tons of EDB, and then they built a ship in almost 12,5 kilotons - and this is exactly what happened with Fuji
                  1. +3
                    29 May 2018 23: 59
                    As far as I remember, Fuji was based on the Royal Sovereign which is 14000 tons with 343mm guns
  11. +3
    29 May 2018 11: 34
    Hello dear Andrey.
    The entry is intriguing. Typically, your articles, having an ambiguous conclusion, force you to sort through a large list of references to seek confirmation / refutation.
    It is curious that in such a well-studied topic as the Varangian and his first and last battle, can be added.
    I look forward to continuing :)
  12. +2
    29 May 2018 11: 38
    The beginning of the next cycle from the author .. I rub my hands impatiently .. From myself - I would like in these articles on a very hot issue more excerpts from documents, memoirs, etc. for great opportunities to debate in the comments .. A promising start ..
  13. +2
    29 May 2018 13: 07
    For all interested, an interesting selection of sites and electronic resources about the fight in Chemulpo.
    http://www.hist.msu.ru/Labs/HisLab/Stud/Podshival
    ov.pdf
    Related Resources:
    "The battle of the cruiser" Varyag "and the gunboat" Korean "
    with the Japanese squadron on January 27, 1904 in Chemulpo "
  14. +1
    29 May 2018 16: 07
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    Quote: Amurets
    Well, in the figure, the foundation frame looks like this. Having abandoned the foundation frames, Crump won the weight of the body


    Extremely, very technically competent comment!
    My respect, dear Nicholas.

    I join you
  15. +2
    29 May 2018 16: 54
    A very promising start, dear colleague.
    I will look forward to continuing.
    1. +2
      29 May 2018 17: 21
      Good afternoon, dear Ivan!
      I will try not to disappoint :)
  16. +3
    29 May 2018 17: 44
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And I can, because I do not pretend to be a scientist-historian.

    Dear Andrey, Have you ever thought about what you wrote? It seems to me that this should not be written, because such an approach means that "not a historian" can write any nonsense? Everything related to questions of history, alas, is historical! And the one who writes on historical topics becomes an involuntary historian.
    1. +3
      29 May 2018 17: 54
      Not badly said ...
    2. +4
      29 May 2018 19: 03
      Quote: kalibr
      It seems to me that this should not be written, because such an approach means that "not a historian" can write any nonsense?

      In no case. In order to avoid misunderstanding, I will explain by example.
      We have a fact - very strange circumstances when concluding a contract with Kramp
      Historian R.M. Melnikov sets out this fact in full detail to us and gives his assessment / interpretation of this fact - the contract was not beneficial to Russia, the actions of the responsible persons on our part are not professional. These conclusions are provable on the basis of facts, and this is the boundary that he, as a historian, cannot cross
      I make an assumption - it is possible (perhaps!) That the reason for such unprofessional actions is a bribe. In fact, this is really possible. This is not nonsense - there is a certain probability that it was so. But I have no direct evidence of this, therefore, this assumption is not suitable for scientific work. However, I am not a historian and I have the right to put forward hypotheses based on indirect evidence. In essence, I write "and such an option is possible." Thus, I can say that I broaden the horizons of the reader (describing the possibilities for him) but do not mislead him (since I directly say that what I have described is not a fact, but only a probability)
      But if someone said publicly “Kramp gave bribes and therefore got a contract” - then that would be a lie (not because he didn’t give, he really did give bribes, but there is no evidence!) And he would mislead others. As if the fact that Crump was giving bribes is a proven fact. But he is not proven, then this is a lie and nonsense.
      Here is the difference between me, nonsense and a historian :)))))
      1. +2
        29 May 2018 20: 43
        It is sad that you do not want to understand me. Apparently, the word bullshit touched you. But it has nothing to do with you, believe me. Nevertheless, you will not get anywhere from the historicity of the story. And, by the way, the historian can just as well make speculative conclusions, nowhere and no one is forbidden.
        1. +2
          29 May 2018 21: 45
          Quote: kalibr
          Nevertheless, you will not get anywhere from the historicity of the story.

          Yes, I’m not going to :)))))
          Quote: kalibr
          And, by the way, the historian can just as well make speculative conclusions, nowhere and no one is forbidden.

          Forbidden, this is unscientific. For such theses already at the institute punish mercilessly
  17. +1
    29 May 2018 19: 24
    It seems to us, unfortunately, many do not understand that the Varangian is now leading its last historical battle. Those who question his feat. For some reason, those foreign sailors. who escorted the Russian sailors in the last parade was no doubt. There was no doubt in the heroism of Russian sailors and the Japanese. Rudnev is charged with the fact that he flooded, but did not blow up the Varangian. Tell me, what did Rudnev know on the first day of the war, that it would be lost, and that the cruiser that he tried to keep for the Russian fleet would be raised by the Japanese. It might be better to ask those who surrendered Port Arthur and lost the battle on land and at sea for this. The commandant of Port Arthur was convicted of treason and sentenced to indefinite penal servitude, etc. The information war is on and the long-dead cruiser is fighting again.
    1. Alf
      0
      29 May 2018 20: 22
      Quote: tank64rus
      The commandant of Port Arthur was convicted of treason and sentenced to indefinite penal servitude

      And then he was pardoned by the good king.
    2. +1
      29 May 2018 20: 46
      And who questions his feat? Where and by whom specifically is it written, and not the general - "are they bad"? If there is a concrete example, then it is necessary to write on it with the indication: G. Dundukov wrote that "Rudnev drowned the Varyag" - on what basis did he write it? And then again, "they deceived everyone, robbed, all the ruins ... they ... they ..."
      1. +1
        29 May 2018 21: 45
        Quote: kalibr
        If there is a concrete example, then it is necessary to write on it with the indication: G. Dundukov wrote

        laughing good
      2. 0
        29 May 2018 22: 39
        I do not consider performing my duties as a feat! And in general, how many times have this topic been sorted out yet, but the oddities have remained. Contemporaries were more negative about the battle of the NWP. Why was the continuity in the name of the ships not observed? After the RIA, Rurik appeared, Askold appeared, Novik appeared, Bayan appeared, but Varyag and Boyarin were no longer in the RIF. Nonsense, this happened to the frigate Rafail, after a well-known incident, a ship of that name did not appear in the RIF anymore.
        1. 0
          30 May 2018 08: 53
          but the Varangian was no longer in the RIF.

          come on!
          1. 0
            30 May 2018 09: 27
            Well then, show me the Warship of the Russian Imperial Navy named Varyag? When was it laid, and where?
            1. +4
              30 May 2018 11: 52
              Colleague, I quote you again
              but the Varangian was no longer in the RIF.

              I answer. It was quite myself. The official bookmarking ceremony took place on 10 on May 1989. The life of the cruiser proceeded quite dramatically, but in the year 1916, he former name "Varangian" served wonderfully in the reef! That is quite was.
              And I want to tell you right away that the argument, "they gave did not give names," has nothing to do with reality. “Sevastopol” and “Petropavlovsk” died, and “Poltava” became “Tango,” but what do you remember the first Baltic dreadnoughts called? “Bayan” and “Pallas” became respectively “Aso” and “Tsugaru”, but cruisers with that name appeared. "Emperor Nicholas I" surrendered, but a dreadnought with that name was built, but neither Retvisan nor Victory.
              In short, all this garbage.
  18. +1
    29 May 2018 20: 07
    the author as always pleased, the beginning of a new cycle is good
  19. +2
    29 May 2018 20: 27
    It is better to write the names of foreign ships in Latin, so that our "Ryazan French" does not distort the names of the ships.
    Yes, in the Russian Imperial Navy, the term “armored” was not used in the classification of warships. If we are to write an article on a historical topic, then we would have to adhere to the facts of that, and not later time.
    1. +2
      29 May 2018 21: 38
      Quote: Cannonball
      It is better to write the names of foreign ships in Latin, so that our "Ryazan French" does not distort the names of the ships.

      And what, sorry, is the difference? Do you think that now many are able to read the French name correctly? :)))) I now - no.
      Quote: Cannonball
      Yes, in the Russian Imperial Navy, the term “armored” was not used in the classification of warships. If we are to write an article on a historical topic, then we would have to adhere to the facts of that, and not later time.

      Honestly, I see no reason to lengthen the text with definitions, like "Cruiser 1-th rank (covered, that is, with an armored convex deck)"
      1. +2
        30 May 2018 00: 01
        The difference in the culture of presentation. Simply, being interested in military issues at a level “slightly higher than an ignoramus” and possessing some knowledge in this area, you often deal with sources where the names of the ships and planes are authentic.
        Sorry, but somehow it hurts the eye when the authors use free interpretations in the names and designations.
        For example, when the tanks of the Third Reich, some experts in military history refer to as T-3, T-4 etc., instead of the set Pz.kpfw III, Pz.kpfw IV...
        Or take aviation, the same Luftwaffe or modern USAF, where you meet Messerschmitt Me-109, Me-110Fighters F-15 "Eagle", F-16 "Fighting Falcon", F-18 "Hornite"...
        But it’s much more competent to write their names as is accepted throughout the world - in the original: Messerschmitt Bf.109, Messerschmitt Bf. 110 Zerstörer, McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle, General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon, McDonnell Douglas F / A-18 Hornet.
        The same with the fleet - English cruisers of the 1st rank Blake и Blenheim, Class I French cruiser D'entrecasteauxJapanese armored cruiser Asama (浅 間)...
        Tea is not in the USSR, but where except the Vremya program and the International Panorama program there was especially nowhere to derive knowledge about the foreign land.

        Why lengthen? Write without frills, as was customary in the RIF - Cruiser of the 1st rank “Varyag”.
        After all, the concept of "armored" introduces some confusion in the awareness of the degree of protection of the cruiser. You see the “armor” and it seems cool, like in an armadillo. But in fact, the "cat" cried there - a tiny one, and even that is not everywhere. And it is only that destroyer artillery more or less protects.
        1. +1
          30 May 2018 17: 29
          Colleague, I'm sorry, but you can break your fingers from some national abbreviations.
          As for the term "cruiser I rank" Then we say "Rurik", "Russia", "Stormbreaker", "Bayan" is also a cruiser of the first rank. Therefore, it is more than justifiable to classify the armored / armored deck.
          1. 0
            30 May 2018 21: 33
            The concept of an “armored cruiser” appeared only in the “Classification of Steam and Armored Vessels of the Russian Fleet of 1907”. And already in 1915 he was replaced by a “battle cruiser”. Our habit of calling the cruisers of the EWE period “armored” and “armored” is based not on real historical facts, but on their representations of the authors in popular and fiction, which appeared much later than the events described.
            I do not argue, such a unit is quite convenient for understanding, but in fact in 1889 the "composition of the domestic fleet was a larger armored cruiser" could not be replenished, in the absence of cruisers of this class in the RIF.
            1. Alf
              0
              30 May 2018 22: 04
              Quote: Cannonball
              The concept of an “armored cruiser” appeared only in the “Classification of Steam and Armored Vessels of the Russian Fleet of 1907”. And already in 1915 he was replaced by a “battle cruiser”. Our habit of calling the cruisers of the EWE period “armored” and “armored” is based not on real historical facts, but on their representations of the authors in popular and fiction, which appeared much later than the events described.
              I do not argue, such a unit is quite convenient for understanding, but in fact in 1889 the "composition of the domestic fleet was a larger armored cruiser" could not be replenished, in the absence of cruisers of this class in the RIF.
              Reply

              But what about the inscription in this photo? This photo cannot be fastened in 1907.
              1. +1
                31 May 2018 08: 50
                Quote: Alf
                But what about the inscription in this photo? This photo for the 1907 year is not fastened in any way

                But is it not Rurik2, which was built later than 1907, so it’s quite appropriate for yourself
              2. +1
                31 May 2018 20: 27
                And the inscription "at the head of the battleships" does not bother you? wink
                In the Russian-Japanese battleships (battleships) were not yet, but there were armadillos.
                Just in 1907, the “ship of the line” class appeared in the RIF, to which all the squadron battleships of the pre-war building, the squadron battleships of the “pre-combat type”, completed during the Russo-Japanese War, and the designed squadron battleship of the “dreadnought type” were assigned.
            2. +2
              31 May 2018 09: 20
              The concept of an “armored cruiser” appeared only in the “Classification of Steam and Armored Vessels of the Russian Navy of the 1907 of the Year”

              Dear colleague, God be with you!
              ORDER
              At the Main Naval Headquarters
              On Monday, 21 this October, at 11 hour. 30 min in the morning, at the Baltic Mechanical Shipbuilding Plant, in Chekushi, in the Highest Presence they have: launching armored cruiser 1 rank "Admiral Nakhimov" and the laying of the mine cruiser "Ilyin".

              http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/BKM/Nahimov/
              17.htm
              1. +1
                31 May 2018 20: 42
                Pay attention to the year of this order - 1883.

                And now we compare with the facts - in the first thirty years of the existence of the Russian armored fleet (1861-1891), a strictly established classification of ships was absent. The fleet included sailing, sailing-armored and armored ships, and their distribution was carried out both according to the classes of the sailing and armored fleets.
                To do this, they tried to use the names of the existing classes of the sailing fleet with the addition of elements inherent in new ships (armored battery, steamboat-frigate, armored frigate, tower armored boat). Sometimes a new class was named after the lead ship of this class (monitor, cruiser); in other cases, class names were borrowed from foreign fleets. With the beginning of the use of mine and torpedo weapons, new classes of warships were born - mine boats, destroyers and destroyers.

                The first classification of steam and armored ships of the Russian fleet was developed at the end of 1891 and announced by order of the Maritime Department on February 1 (13), 1892. She installed the following classes of warships:
                1 armadillos
                1.1 Squadron battleships
                1.2 coastal defense battleships
                2. Cruisers
                2.1 Cruisers I rank
                2.2 Cruisers II rank
                3. Gunboats
                3.1 Navy gunboats
                3.2 Coastal gunboats
                4. Steamboats
                5. Yacht
                6. Transports
                7. Destroyers
                8. Minosocks
                9. Training vessels
                10. Port vessels

                By order of September 27 (October 10), 1907, a new classification of the ships of the Russian fleet was introduced:

                Battleships
                Armored Cruisers
                Cruisers
                Destroyers
                Destroyers
                Minosocks
                Blockers
                Submarines
                Gunboats
                River gunboats
                Transports
                Messenger ships
                Yachts
                Training ships
                Port ships

                The development of new shipbuilding programs (1909 and 1912) required a revision of the 1907 classification. A new classification developed by the Naval General Staff was approved in June 1915. It included the following ships:

                Battleships
                Battlecruisers
                Cruisers
                Destroyers
                Destroyers
                Submarines
                Blockers
                Minesweepers
                Gunboats
                River gunboats
                Training ships
                Transports
                Messenger ships
                Yachts
                Hydrographic vessels
                Port and fortress ships
                Blockchains.

                In July 1916, the classification was supplemented by sea and port icebreakers, and in December of the same year - network barriers. At the beginning of October 1917, the classification was supplemented again - by patrol ships, patrol boats and minesweeper boats. Some ships that became part of the fleet in 1914-1918 did not receive an official “class”: for example, underwater mine loaders and air transport.
                1. +2
                  31 May 2018 21: 40
                  But was there a precedent? request
                  As for the division by rank. When this classification was introduced, all cruise ships with at least some kind of armor, whether waist or deck, were assigned to the first rank. And not having one (clipper, "Zabiyaka", "Asia", "Africa", etc.) to the second. Thus, it turned out that a huge “Rurik” with a belt and almost 12000 tons of displacement was in the same class as “Vityaz” and “Rynda” in 3500 tons. Therefore, it seems to me appropriate to indicate which subtype the cruiser belongs to. Yes
                  Now recall your thesis:
                  After all, the concept of "armored" introduces some confusion in the awareness of the degree of protection of the cruiser. You see the “armor” and it seems cool, like in an armadillo.

                  In this case, the combination of "first rank" should generally cause a fierce dissonance :))) Because it directly indicates armor protection. feel
                  True, later, it turned out that even second-rank cruisers need protection, at least a deck. And again it turned out that the Svetlana and the pebbles close in terms of displacement were in different ranks.
                  But what if a person with a "confusion in consciousness" reads: "a cruiser of the second rank" Zabiyak "and thinks that he is close in terms of performance characteristics to" Novik "or" Boyar "? wassat
                  By the way, there is one more difference. The crews of ships of the first rank were organizationally divided into two companies, and the second one.
                  1. +1
                    31 May 2018 22: 19
                    In the Russian Imperial Navy, the legacy from the sailing era, Russian cruisers, depending on the displacement, were divided into evolutionary ranks: “Frigate” and “Corvette”. Moreover, cruisers of the “frigate” rank were exclusively ships of the first rank, and cruisers of the “corvette” rank, depending on the displacement, were divided into ships of the first and second ranks.
                    The first classification of ships for the Russian fleet was developed at the end of 1891 and announced by order of the Maritime Department on February 1, 1892. This classification summed up the development of the class of cruisers and at the same time reflected new trends in cruising. In particular, it officially established the class “cruiser” with subclasses: “cruiser of the 1st rank” (displacement of more than 4000 tons) and “cruiser of the 2nd rank” (displacement of up to 4000 tons).
                    Until 1907, Russian cruiser ships were divided into subclasses: cruisers of I rank (with a displacement of more than 4000 tons) and II rank (all the rest) without difference in the type of reservation (with a belt on the waterline) or only armored.
                    In the modern Navy there are ships of 4 ranks. The difference is mainly in class and displacement.
                    Interestingly, the rank of the commander of the ship should correspond to his rank:
                    Captain 1 rank - ship 1 rank;
                    Captain 2 rank - ship 2 rank;
                    Captain 3 rank - ship 3 rank;
                    from fly to drop - a ship of rank 4.
                    1. +1
                      1 June 2018 00: 29
                      Your offer is unreasonable. The classification is opportunistic and changes repeatedly with the change of views or even just leadership. As a result, the same ship is either a frigate or a cruiser-1 rank, and somewhere an armored cruiser. It turns out that describing each year of its operation, you need to bother with the search for its classification at this particular moment and continuously juggle with definitions.

                      It is not necessary to produce entities beyond the minimum necessary. If this is not a book or an article about classification features, it’s quite enough if the reader understands which ship they are talking about. In this particular case, the definition of "armored" is universally recognized and gives the reader an idea of ​​the approximate level of this ship.
                      1. 0
                        1 June 2018 18: 49
                        Classification organizes a motley terminology, previously invented just from opportunistic considerations, which avoids misunderstanding.
                        The article touches on a very specific period of time - the end of the XIX century - 1905. To discuss the article, it is best to use the terminology of that time, and not later.
                        Argumentum ad populum doesn’t roll here, sorry.
                        If the majority is mistaken, this does not mean that they are right.
                    2. +1
                      1 June 2018 19: 52
                      Colleague, doesn’t you allow to recognize the error? :))
                      you wrote:
                      The concept of an “armored cruiser” appeared only in the “Classification of Steam and Armored Vessels of the Russian Navy 1907 of the Year”

                      They brought you a document to 1907 year.
                      In response, a stream of thoughts began, is it a pleasure to see the wrong classification, but the right one ...
                      If you really consider yourself an expert on the history of the Russian fleet, then simply required know the story with the classification of "Nakhimov." According to the then rules, he was to be considered an armored frigate, but he could not be a frigate, since he was carrying a brig sailing equipment! That is why he was the first in our fleet to be called "armored cruiser". Point.
                      Interestingly, the rank of the commander of the ship should correspond to his rank:
                      Captain 1 rank - ship 1 rank;

                      Must, but not required :)))
                      Nikolai Ottovich Essen and His Grace Prince Alexander Alexandrovich Lieven became commanders of the Sevastopol EDB and cruiser I rank "Diana" as captains of the second rank.
                      (And there was no third rank in the “Table of Ranks”)
                      1. 0
                        2 June 2018 14: 58
                        What is the mistake in the absence of the class of armored cruisers in the RIF in 1883?
                        Have you read my post carefully? Why should my FFM suffer? request
                        There, the Russian language says that: "in the first thirty years of the existence of the Russian armored fleet (1861-1891) there was no strictly established classification of ships. The fleet consisted of sailing, sailing-armored and armored ships, and their distribution was carried out both according to the classes of the sailing and armored fleets. "

                        Translated from Russian into Russian, this means that until 1892 the cruiser could well be designated as an armored vehicle. But officially in the RIF class armored cruisers then did not exist.

                        As for the “Admiral Nakhimov,” although he was a brig, he was considered an armored frigate or, as I mentioned above, a frigate class cruiser, he is also a rank 1 cruiser. Again, there is no contradiction, since "the distribution was made both in the classes of the sailing and armored fleet."

                        And the fact that in literature he is called an armored cruiser, because of the class that became his prototype of the English ocean armored cruiser Hms imperieuse. In England, by that time the class of armored cruisers had already begun to form.

                        And despite the fact that the Russian “General Admiral" is considered to be the first armored cruiser in the world de facto, there was no de jure class of armored cruisers in the RIF until 1907.

                        Speaking about the ranks of the ship and the ranks of their commanders (read my post carefully again) it was about contemporary state of affairs in the Navy. Therefore, neither Essen, nor Lieven, nor the "ranking card" have anything to do with what I wrote. winked

                        PS FAQ satisfied wink
        2. +1
          30 May 2018 17: 58
          Quote: Cannonball
          Sorry, but somehow it hurts the eye when the authors use free interpretations in the names and designations.

          Here, unfortunately, it’s impossible to please everyone - this is not the first such dispute in the comments to my articles. Therefore, I decided to give Russian transcriptions. I'm sorry.
          1. +1
            30 May 2018 21: 40
            I personally have no complaints about you and your article. The article is really interesting and informative. smile
            It simply affects the fact that names and indices, so as not to look like jargon, do not need translation or transcription.
  20. 0
    29 May 2018 22: 09
    I remember in one program it was said how the inhabitants of Philadelphia were glad when an order for the Varyag appeared. Before that, the unemployment rate was very high. Now, if you think about how many countries RI taught to build ships, making orders abroad. And there were future enemies.
    1. 0
      30 May 2018 12: 19
      Have you thought what you wrote?
      Peter the Great ordered ships in England and Holland.
      “Admiral Kornilov” and “Svetlana”, the battleship “Tsesarevich” and the armored cruisers “Bayan” and “Admiral Makarov”, as well as 11 destroyers of the “Lieutenant Burakov” type were built in France.
      The floating battery "Firstborn" - in fact, the first large Russian armored ship - was built in England.
      Light cruisers "Muravyov-Amursky" and "Nevelskaya", armored "Bogatyr" Germany. The latter and according to the German project.
      “Varangian”, “Retvizan” - USA.
      Do you think that Russia taught these countries how to build ships?
      1. 0
        30 May 2018 12: 42
        Meant, if the manufacturer has a lot of orders, then naturally he will have experience and technology.
        1. 0
          30 May 2018 12: 50
          You know, in the network you can find a lot of literature on the level of shipbuilding and the state of the fleets of these countries at a specified time, as well as the number of ships that were built in these countries in comparison with the Russian Empire. In this amount, Russian orders make up a vanishingly small percentage. If there weren’t any, one shipyard could have noticed, but no one would have noticed this on an industry-wide scale.
          1. 0
            30 May 2018 13: 00
            If one shipyard could notice this, is it not enough for one shipyard? At the same time, it is possible to get a look at other people's orders, and then see if it is worth taking for yourself.
            1. +1
              30 May 2018 13: 13
              We are having a useless conversation. All these issues have long been clarified and described many times. There is a lot of literature. Therefore, the main thing is desire. And then you will write that Russia taught England how to build ships. All the best.
      2. +2
        30 May 2018 13: 35
        Quote: Curious
        Do you think that Russia taught these countries how to build ships?

        No, of course, but in the case of Retwisan, this is true. After that, the Americans stopped building the dream of reason and started creating completely sane armadillos. laughing
        1. 0
          30 May 2018 14: 03
          Are we talking about construction or design? In addition, I would not say that “Maine” is just the influence of the Russian school.
          1. 0
            30 May 2018 16: 00
            Quote: Curious
            Are we talking about construction or design?

            Definitely about design
            Quote: Curious
            In addition, I would not say that “Maine” is just the influence of the Russian school.

            And what else?
            1. 0
              30 May 2018 16: 47
              Surely they didn’t learn anything on “Iowa” and on “Illinois” and rejected everything, including the “English trace” and started from scratch?
            2. +3
              30 May 2018 18: 00
              Nevertheless, he is inclined to think that the Americans themselves thought of the "crime against a white man" Yes
  21. +8
    30 May 2018 01: 25
    Dear Andrey, it’s a pleasure to follow your thoughts when you discuss topics that your humble servant loves. Thanks for the next interesting work +!
    With your permission, a couple of thoughts out loud :-)
    the competition of the armored cruiser 1 rank projects was held in 1898. It seemed that everything had to go as it should - a lot of offers from foreign companies, choosing the best project, finalizing it, contracting, building

    Let's look at the participants of the "international competition" through the eyes of the customer. What were they like in the summer of 1898? Consider the facts.
    1) "Schiff- und Maschinenbau-AG" Germania "". The experience of building large warships on their own projects - no. What large surface ships built at the time of participation in the competition? Armored cruiser "Kaiserin Augusta" and battleship "Wörth" (designed by real secret adviser A. Dietrich, head of the Design Department of the Admiralty of the German Empire).
    2) Howaldtswerke. The experience of building large warships on their own projects - no. What large surface ships built at the time of participation in the competition? No one.
    3) Schichau-Werke. The experience of building large warships on their own projects - no. What large surface ships built at the time of participation in the competition? No one.
    4) "Ansaldo." The experience of building large warships on their own projects - no. What large surface ships built at the time of participation in the competition? Two armored cruisers, the “Garibaldi” and the “Cristóbal Colón” (designed by the Italian politician, general and naval engineer E. Masdea).
    Conclusion. For European companies, in fact, third-rate at that time, the Russian order was a testing ground. Firms that had never before designed cruisers did this for the first time in their lives. So to speak, "trained on cats." If I know this, then the organizer of the contest knew all the more about it.
    Now we look at the American firm "William Cramp & Sons". By the summer of 1898, according to her own designs, she had built two identical armored cruisers Columbia and Minneapolis, armored cruisers New York and Brooklyn, three squadron battleships Indiana, Massachusetts and Iowa.
    Do not consider it as partiality, but when I need someone’s services, I’m first interested in what’s his experience? If satisfied, we proceed to discuss the price and timing.
    1. +2
      30 May 2018 02: 37
      I am joining! Crump had simply a huge experience in building large warships of his own projects compared to European participants, as he wrote above
    2. +1
      30 May 2018 15: 19
      Greetings, dear Valentine!
      With your permission, I propose to consider the issue that you raised in the next article (I have almost finished it, that is, next week it will be guaranteed to be on the main one)
  22. +1
    30 May 2018 19: 43
    Personally, I do not understand why these events are called a feat. It’s just the conscientious fulfillment of military duty, but this is not a feat.
    1. Alf
      +1
      30 May 2018 21: 24
      Quote: Loki_2
      Personally, I do not understand why these events are called a feat. It’s just the conscientious fulfillment of military duty, but this is not a feat.

      And then what is a feat?
    2. +1
      30 May 2018 21: 50
      A feat, because people consciously chose the path to go to death shame of captivity. Military duty is the duty to protect, but not the requirement to perish, fulfilling it.
      1. Alf
        +2
        30 May 2018 21: 59
        Quote: Cannonball
        A feat, because people consciously chose the path to go to death shame of captivity.

        That is precisely why what the crew of the Varyag did is a feat.
  23. 0
    30 May 2018 20: 23
    Alf,
    Colleague, source I indicated
    I think that the speed was determined by the English method, in tests, with an incomplete load and for a short time.
    1. Alf
      0
      30 May 2018 21: 23
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      Alf,
      Colleague, source I indicated
      I think that the speed was determined by the English method, in tests, with an incomplete load and for a short time.

      Well, the golden words, if only to keep within the TTZ, but the fact that in combat conditions he will not give this speed, since these are problems of the crew, not the shipbuilder. By the way, Russian cruisers measured the speed at a measured mile at full power, but without forcing cars.
    2. +1
      31 May 2018 08: 07
      On July 12, 1900, the Varangian developed a move of 24,59 knots.
      During a 12-hour continuous test, the Varyag showed an average result of 23,18 knots, with a machine power of 19 602 hp.
      1. +1
        31 May 2018 08: 25
        however, there is an option
        On September 21, in the morning, 12-hour progressive tests began in full swing. The depth of the cruiser on an even keel was 5,9 m; sea ​​swell - 2 points; lateral wind force - 3 points. In general, the tests went well, only in one of the boilers the pipe broke. The achieved average speed - 23,18 knots - exceeded the value of the contract. Cars developed a capacity of 14 hp. at a vapor pressure of 157 atm. The shaft speed was on average 17,5 rpm.

        The power difference is probably the result of accounting for domestic consumption.
        In any case, lengthy tests were carried out.
      2. 0
        31 May 2018 09: 24
        And note, the official is considered not the maximum, but the average, at 12 hourly tests. Those. 23 node.
        1. +1
          31 May 2018 09: 58
          the maximum, naturally, was higher
  24. 0
    31 May 2018 09: 28
    Alf,
    But why is it not clear. Not too successful ships happened at all, but here it was also unfinished ... sobsno, therefore, we turned to the out-of-town supplier, and the Goddesses and Peresvet were obtained by ourselves.
  25. 0
    31 May 2018 12: 28
    It is interesting from the point of view of the analysis of the general situation. "riveting" is certainly a fascinating thing, but for the most part useless - because without meeting the realities and requirements of the time, neither the thickness of the armor nor the speed (etc., etc.) alone determine the combat value or practical value of a particular combat units. So we wait, with continuation. Although a very "creepy topic" ...
  26. +1
    31 May 2018 20: 48
    Quote: Alf
    That's it. Therefore, cruisers with more balanced artillery were created. And the appointment of Sleepy Goddesses, as I believe, was incomprehensible even to the creators themselves.

    With the "Aurora" in the First World War, the entire 75-mm was removed at all, though they added 4 anti-airborne cannons of the same caliber. And the number 6 "was brought to 14.
  27. +1
    31 May 2018 22: 04
    Quote: Alf
    This photo cannot be fastened in 1907

    Reverse side of this postcard

    Below you can see the inscription: "Edition of the photographer E. Ivanov in Revel No. 51. Property of the publisher"

    Take another postcard from this series at number 50:


    And in the same numbering series of the same author, among others, there were postcards with the battleship "Andrew the First-Called", the cruiser "Admiral Makarov", the destroyer "Border Guard", the submarine "Shark", etc., that is, with the ships launched on the water after the Russo-Japanese war.
    1. +1
      31 May 2018 22: 28
      Reverse side of this postcard


      Take another postcard from this series at number 50:
  28. 0
    1 June 2018 20: 03
    Cannonball,
    Read here http://militera.lib.ru/h/petrov_ma/02.html
    When discussing the 1898 program of the year "For the needs of the Far East," the terms "Armored Cruiser" and "Cruiser I Rank" were used simultaneously.
  29. +1
    1 June 2018 23: 13
    Quote: Cannonball
    The article touches on a very specific period of time - the end of the XIX century - 1905. To discuss the article, it is best to use the terminology of that time, and not later.

    First, why exactly 1905 and not later? The ships served further. Secondly, even during this period, the terminology changed dramatically, the armored frigate became the 1st rank KR, and later the same are called the armored cruiser. The battleships suddenly turned into battleships and the destroyers into destroyers .. This is conjuncture and nothing more. Once again I say, juggling definitions is pointless. There is a common, international definition of the class, this is an armored cruiser. And if the article does not affect precisely the tricks with the classification of that time, there is no point in polluting the essence of the issue with this.
    1. 0
      2 June 2018 10: 00
      What is the article called? When was the battle at Chemulpo and the Russo-Japanese War? Does the article discuss the post-war period of service ships? Discussed only in offtopic comments.
      Hence the terms, hence the terminology. So your claims to my remarks are precisely "juggling and polluting the essence of the matter."
      1. 0
        2 June 2018 20: 27
        Discussed only in offtopic comments.

        Are you talking about filling posts in the Soviet Navy? Self-critical!
        1. 0
          2 June 2018 21: 28
          In essence, it seems to you that there is nothing more to show, just go to the opponent’s personality.
          This is called trollism, my friend, and not a reasoned discussion. Sorry, so sorry.
          1. +1
            3 June 2018 08: 00
            A colleague, I essentially told you a question, answered enough, and the examples I gave were in the time frame of the subject of discussion.
            I didn’t touch your precious personality at all, however, if you give me an example of the opposite, then I would be happy to apologize, because for me the recognition of my wrongness, if that is true, is not a problem.
            But the fact that you, gracious sovereign, do not know how to do this, really, is very unfortunate.
            1. 0
              3 June 2018 13: 01
              To all your arguments, I laid out my counterarguments, which were ... ignored. So, my friend, the discussion is not conducted.

              You have posted a quote from the order of 1883, which refers to the term "armored cruiser."
              To which I wrote that in this order there is no contradiction to my words, since at that time in the RIF armored frigates could well be called armored cruisers by analogy with their English counterparts, especially since the term "cruiser" in the same RIF had only just begun to be used . But!
              I already talk about this in several of my posts - officially, there were no armored cruisers in the RIF until 1907. There were ships suitable for this class, but the class itself was not. Here is such a historical incident.
              And there was a class of cruisers of the 1st rank, which included, in order, cruisers, which are considered to be armored.
              But for some reason, you persistently do not want to see this counterargument.

              By the way, in the 90s-2000s, the Russian Navy had a similar situation when warships classified by the Soviet classification as a class of patrol ships began to be assigned to the class of frigates that had long existed in the Navy of other states, but was only being formed in the Russian Navy. Which may well become the subject of a similar debate about the presence of frigates in the Soviet Navy. After all, the ships themselves, which later became frigates in the USSR, were, but there were no frigates in the USSR.
              1. +2
                3 June 2018 15: 29
                Colleague. but let's remember how it all began. You really didn’t like the first part in the word “armored”
                After all, the concept of "armored" introduces some confusion in the awareness of the degree of protection of the cruiser. You see the “armor” and it seems cool, like in an armadillo.

                I don’t know why you have such associations, but I wrote to you that according to the classification of the year 1891 dearly beloved by you, an indication of the first rank directly and unequivocally shows that there is still a reservation on the ship.
                But you really ignored it.
                Further, you did not calm down and wrote:
                The concept of an “armored cruiser” appeared only in the “Classification of Steam and Armored Vessels of the Russian Navy of the 1907 of the Year”

                Notice notreappeared", and"did not return", but "only appeared"!
                To which you were given an excerpt from this order. But apparently, in your alternative universe, the 1883 year was after 1907.
                And a little later, I added a link to the discussion of the "1898 program of the year" For the needs of the Far East "in which, (horror!) The term" armored cruiser "is quite applicable to itself along with the term" cruiser of I rank ".
                And you ignored it.
                And which is typical, for yourself, you consider it permissible in your arguments to push the time frame up to the late USSR, however when your colleague Saxahorse did exactly the same thing, you said that he was engaged in:
                "juggling and polluting the essence of the matter"

                About how!
                and literally in two posts they themselves moved out in 2000 years.
                Quod licet jovi, non licet bovi? Oh well...
                So, my friend, the discussion is not conducted.

                what are you saying!
  30. 0
    2 June 2018 16: 03
    Cannonball,
    If you're talking about your own, then I really hope :)) hi
  31. 0
    2 June 2018 22: 39
    If we talk about choosing a shipyard for the future hero (well, or an anti hero for some)
    William Cramp & Sons is an American shipbuilding company in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, founded in 1825 by William Cramp. In the XNUMXth century - the leading US company in the construction of steel ships.
    The shipyard quickly announced itself.
    The passenger St. Paul, built at these shipyards, became the first liner in the world to announce its arrival at the port by radio. The ship sailed from New York to England and had on board the Marconi wireless telegraph. It happened on November 5, 1899.
    small cruisers "Europe", "Asia", "Africa" ​​and "Zabiyaka". Who built and transferred them in an interesting way
    The contract with a frontman Semechkina (banker Wharton Barker) was signed on June 29. At the end of construction, the cruiser enters the sea under the American flag, and outside the territorial waters of the USA Barker transfers his ownership of the ship to the Russian side, after which the American flag descends on the gaffel and Andreevsky flag flies. Such a complex procedure was conceived for the sole purpose of circumventing the laws of the United States government.

    So, he was already a regular customer of RI (more precisely, a contractor)
    And when the appearance of the future order and money formed (90 million rubles), Charles personally arrived in RI.
    He himself would like to receive the maximum order for 2 battleships, 4 armored cruisers and 30 destroyers. He met with Alekseev and others. Obviously there was some sort of arrangement and accuracy that he would not be left without money. For it has already been involved earlier and has established itself
    Krump also built the cruiser Kasagi and Chitose for the Nuclear Forces. However, they made a bet on England (and as we see, they did not lose)
    Crump also waged an information war (North American Review Magazine) "Offensive of the Sea Force" (on the growing Japanese threat to RI)
    The article was reprinted by European publications and it became one of the foundations for escalating the situation.
    With the same Retvisan Kramp failed to defend the tower (they are from the Metal Plant)
    Of the interesting features of the building
    The speed at the shipyard was at least twice as high as in RI. However, the strike (August 1899) almost wrecked the Varyag and Retvisan schedule (we had to put boilers during the slipway period)
    One of the photos of the book (Retvisan) where in one picture the new past of the fleet with a new future (EDB and submarine)

    So the supporters of "Bad Trump..they Kramp" consider including boilers

    Thanks to Andrei separately, not even an article (he wrote for a long time worthy of VO articles) but for the formation of comments on articles that are worthy of the article itself and give rise to a true VO atmosphere ..
  32. 0
    11 June 2018 13: 27
    "A metacentric height was also established with a full supply of coal (not more than 0,76 m)"
    Andrey, I welcome you. I always read your articles with pleasure both at sea and on the shore. But here I had a doubt, usually they indicate in the stability criteria that the metacentric height should be at least some parameter, and you should have no more.
    It is clear that the surplus of the MCV affects the helmet, but this is not as critical as its lack.
    Regards to you. Good luck