The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 14. First damage

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We completed the previous article in the first shots of the Asama, sounded in 12.20, about a couple of minutes before the Russian ships left the Korean territorial waters. However, absolute accuracy is hardly possible here, but still our compatriots believed that they had gone beyond the limits of neutral waters only two minutes later. Immediately after the start of the battle, between the 12.20 and 12.22, “Varyag” and “Koreyets” brought the revs up to the corresponding speed of the 7 nodes (apparently, for this they had to slow down, but this is not accurate) and approximately at 9-10 nodes in view of the current, we moved further along the fairway.

At about the same time (12.20-12.22), the flagship cruiser Naniwa was removed from the anchor. The flagship believed that they did it in 12.22, but at the same time indicated that it was done simultaneously with the first salvo of the “Assam”, and the armored cruiser started the battle two minutes earlier. Speed ​​brought to 12 nodes, guns left port made to fire.



By the way, here the Japanese reports have known contradictions: the commander of "Takachiho" Murakami claims that his cruiser was off the anchor and made his turn in 12.25, while the report of the commander of "Naniva" reports: "Started movement following Chiyoda with the speed of 12 nodes ". This phrase can hardly be interpreted in the sense that “Naniwa” followed Chiyoda, because neither domestic nor Japanese combat schemes show the moment when Naniwa would follow Chioda in the wake.



Accordingly, the phrase “Battle Report” should be understood in such a way that “Naniwa” made a move after “Chiyoda” did it, but it “does not fit” with the report of its commander ...

In fact, reading the “Battle Reports” of the Japanese, we will find many similar inconsistencies, some of which we mention in our series of articles. However, one should not see in these discrepancies evil intent, or the desire to confuse someone: the whole point is that the perception of the reality of people in battle varies greatly, and they, alas, often see (and then describe in reports) not quite and not at all) what actually happened. This is not to mention the fact that often this or that time is indicated very roughly, or with rounding to the nearest 5 minutes.

12.22 - “Varyag” came out of the territorial waters and fired back at “Asam”, using armor-piercing shells (apparently, they were the commanders of “Varyag” who fired the whole battle). For the Korean, the distance to the Japanese ships was still too great. And then an event occurred that is interpreted by many as evidence of the lack of professionalism of Russian officers. The fact is that the junior navigator of Varyag, midshipman Alexei Nirod, who is responsible for determining the distance to the enemy, incorrectly measured the distance to Asama, specifying the 45 cables, while according to Japanese data, the distance was only 37-38 cables ( 7 000 m).



Most likely, it was the Japanese who were right - although they managed to achieve the first hit only through 15 crumpled after opening fire, but their first volley went to the “Varyag” “with a small flight”. In fact, the word “flight” was used here in a very peculiar way, because the descriptions imply that the shells fell in front of the Varyag’s nose, that is, from the point of view of the Asama’s gunners, this was not a flight, but a shortfall. But, obviously, a small one, so that the Japanese estimate of the distance between “Asama” and “Varyag” at the beginning of the battle looks much more accurate than the Russian one.

So, everything seems to be clear - midshipman A.M. Nirod made a gross mistake by giving the distance by 20% more than the actual. But what is interesting is that judging by the description of V. Kataev, on the Koreyts, it was also believed that Asamu was separated from the gunboat near the 45 cable: “the distance was reported - it turned out to be over 45 cable”. In the Korean logbook, we can also read: “The battle was at a distance of 45 cable and our shells did not reach the enemy.” However, the description of the battle itself is very short and blurry, so it’s not even clear what time the mention of the 45 cable belongs, either by the time of the whole battle before the Varyag turn back, to the anchorage, or specifically by that moment. However, in the report of the commander of the "Korean" GP. Belyaev said quite unambiguously: "At 11 and three-quarters of one o'clock in the afternoon, when the mile departed from the anchor position on the 4, the Japanese opened fire from the 45 cable distance."

In other words, it seems that the distance in 45 from cable to “Asama” was determined on both “Varyag” and “Koreyets”. Of course, the gunboat could have also been mistaken, but it is surprising that two ships almost simultaneously made an error with the same error.

Now recall that the distances to the Japanese were determined using a Lyuzhol-Myakishev micrometer: without going into a detailed description of his work, we note that in order to correctly determine the distance, it was necessary to know the exact height of the target, that is, the distance from the waterline to the tops of the masts. Only in this case the micrometer made it possible to calculate the distance correctly. And therefore, having set out to understand whether AM Is really Nirod made a mistake in determining the distances, it is necessary to check how correctly the Russian reference books indicated the height of the armored cruiser “Asam”. After all, it is obvious that if it is indicated incorrectly, then this would perfectly explain the reason for the “synchronous” error of the Varyag and the Korey in determining the distance to the Japanese cruiser at the beginning of the battle. However, such work, unfortunately, is beyond the limits of the author’s potential in this article.

12.24 Immediately after shooting from the anchor, “Naniwa” turned to the left, and lay down on a roughly parallel “Varyag” course, following the same direction as the “Varyag”. At the time of the turnaround, when Varyag was in the direction of 3 rumba (approximately 17 hail) on the left side, they began to shoot from 152-mm gun No. 2 at 6 800 distance. However, as the military report from the commander of Naniwa reads: it did not allow us to fire for the sake of defeat ”- this remark seems to us extremely interesting.

As we said earlier, the "Asama" was moving in the same direction as the "Varyag", and their courses were close to parallel, that is, the armored Japanese cruiser left the Russian, holding the latter on an acute stern angle. The exact speed of “Asama” is currently unknown, but in the “Battle Report” its commander, Yashiro Rokuro, indicated that the distance to “Varyag” was not increased, which allows us to assume the speed of “Asam” was 10-12 nodes. In other words, in the first minutes of the battle, Ya. Rokuro sought to maintain a distance of about 7 000 m. I must say that 152-mm guns "Nanivy" did not differ from 152-mm guns "Asam" - they were all six-inch Armstrong, with a barrel length in 40 calibers and range 9 140 m. Thus, technically, these guns could easily reach the "Varyag" from 6 800 - 7 000 m, but ... nevertheless, the commander of "Nanivy" believed that at these distances shooting at defeat is impossible. Perhaps this means that "Asama" preferred to engage in battle with the "Varyag" at a distance with which his 152-mm guns cannot provide accurate shooting even by Japanese standards, and in fact the Russian commanders in fact were also worse prepared, besides, they didn’t have scopes ...

As for the “Naniwa”, its commanders made several sighting shots, but “Varyag” disappeared behind Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi), and the Japanese flagship was forced to cease fire.

12.25 - Takachiho, Akashi and Niitaka took off the anchor, presumably the first two cruisers raised anchors between 12.20-12.25. Chiyoda, as we have said, reported that it was a move in 12.25, but this is most likely a mistake. Most likely, “Niitaka” was the last to leave the anchor, which, moreover, made a move three minutes later, in 12.28. At this time, the Japanese cruisers were observed with the "Varyag" is not the best way, as they were obscured by. Phalmido

The actions of the Japanese ships were such - since “Naniwa” still in 12.20 raised the signal “Follow the destination in accordance with the order”, “Takachiho” started its implementation. It was about the order number XXUMX, in which Sotokichi Uriu appointed the following disposition for the ships of his squadron:

“-“ Naniwa ”and“ Niitaka ”carry a combat patrol in a position to N from the islands of Soobol (Humann).

- “Asama” takes the most advantageous position for it to Е1 / 4S from Herido island

- “Takatiho”, “Akashi” and “Chiyoda” jointly carry out a military patrol at the island of Changso (Cat)

- “Chihaya” carries a military patrol overseas Moktocto island

In the case of the exit of the enemy ships, "Asama" attacks them, and "Naniwa" and "Niitaka" support his attack. If this line of attack is broken by the enemy, then Takatiho and other ships will attack it at the second line of attack.

The 9 squadron of destroyers, if necessary, goes to Masanpo Bay of Asanman Bay and fills with coal and water from the Kasuga Maru, and then, along with the 14 squadron of destroyers, takes up a position next to the flagship. ”


In other words, this was the case - “Asame” should have been located somewhere closer to Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi), and it was assumed that his presence would make it impossible for the Russian ships to bypass the island of Marolles from the north, and thus send Varyag and Koreets to the Eastern Channel - on the way to it, in the narrowness between . Marolles and Yung Hung Do were located at the Soobol islands (Humann, located approximately 9 miles from Phalmido), where the breaking through ships were to meet the Naniwa and Niitaka with miniseries. And if by some miracle the Russians managed to break through past them, then, approximately in 4 miles towards the eastern channel, three other cruisers would have waited for them (at Changso Island - Cat).



Accordingly, having withdrawn from the anchor, "Takachiho" moved toward Fr. Changso - this course almost completely coincided with the course of “Varyag” and “Koreyets”, that is, “Takachiho”, as well as “Asama”, had to take the fight at a break - however, it was too far to “Varyag” so that the Takachiho gunners could take part in the battle, nevertheless, the battle flag was raised in the 12.25. Akashi followed Takachiho, while Chiyoda, although he made no attempt to join the Takachiho wake, walked in the same direction, towards Humann-Cat.

As for the Russian ships, then at 12.25 (probably, at a signal from the Varyag), the Koretz opened fire from the right-hand 203-mm gun. The first shot gave a big undershoot, the second one, set at maximum range, also lay down undershoot, and the fire was crushed, not wanting to waste meaningless ammunition.

On the one hand, the range of domestic 203-mm guns mounted on the Korean, with a maximum angle of elevation 12 hail. 38 cabling was supposed to be - that is how the Japanese determined the distance from "Asama" to "Varyag". But, most likely, they made a little mistake and the true distance was somewhat more (not for nothing that the first volley did not reach the Russian cruiser), and besides, shooting in pursuit has its own characteristics. As you know, at long distances it is necessary to take a lead on a moving ship, but if the distance to the retreating target ship is equal to the firing range limit, then it’s impossible to take a lead, and during the flight of the projectile, the target manages to move forward, causing the projectile not to fall into it. . Therefore, the shortfalls of the “Koreyets” do not refute the measurements of the “Assam” - if the rangers of the armored cruiser were wrong, then their error was hardly significant.

12.28 "Niitaka", finally, made a move and went for "Nanivoy", but fell behind, and was able to take his place in the ranks only after 6 minutes.

12.30 On Nanive, Chiodé’s order to join Asame’s wake is raised. Thus, S. Uriu formed a new tactical group, not envisaged by order No. XXUMX, while (judging by the text of the report of the rear admiral, simultaneously with the order "Chiodo") S. Uriu ordered Asame to act independently.

12.34 "Niitaka", finally, entered the wake of the "Naniwe" and is preparing to shoot the left side, but the fire has not yet opened. It should be noted that in the interval from 12.20 to 12.35, that is, in the first quarter of an hour of the battle, only Vseag was fired at Varyag, and Naniwa also fired several sighting shots. The rest of the Japanese cruisers did not open fire yet, and no one fired at the Korean.

As we said, from the beginning of the battle, "Asama" was going almost parallel to "Varyag" course, but it was almost that - the courses nevertheless converged, although at a very small angle. In addition, the "Asama" probably gradually accelerated to 15 bonds (this was the speed indicated by I. Rokuro in his "Battle Report") and began to pull ahead: this led to the aft angle, on which Varyag was located, becoming too sharp, so that most of the artillery "Asama" was turned off from the battlefield. This could not please the commander of the armored cruiser, and he "turned to the right, opened fire with the starboard artillery" - perhaps it happened just somewhere in 12.34-12.35., Because the "Military report" Ya. Rokuro reports that the first hit in "Varyag" (12.35) took place already after the "Asama" opened the starboard shooting.

The problem is that according to other data (N. Chornovil with reference to "The Russo-Japanese War: British naval attaches reports" Battery Press, 2003. Pp6-9) reports that getting from "Asama" in 12.37 to the bridge "Varyag ”(By which the midshipman AM Nirod was killed) was produced from the left stern gun. Obviously, it could not have fired at 13.37 if, by that time, the Asama had already turned its starboard to the Russian ships. Thus, we can reliably say only that around this time, the Asama began to turn right, but when he turned enough to put in effect the starboard artillery, alas, it is impossible to say for sure.

12.35 Many interesting events took place at once, the exact sequence of which, apparently, is no longer possible to determine.

The first is “Asama” striving to get into “Varyag”. 203-mm projectile enters the shkantsy directly behind the stern guns, it was recorded on the “Asam” as “getting into the area of ​​the stern bridge” and noted a strong fire.

Interestingly, the Varyag logbook and the memoirs of V.F. Rudnev does not describe the consequences of the rupture of this projectile, the description of the damage to the Varyag begins with the next hit, which damaged the front bridge and killed the midshipman A.M. Nyroda. But then in the logbook gives a detailed description of getting into the stern, causing a fire:

“Continuously followed by shells, a fire was launched on the shkanzah, which was put out by the efforts of the auditor Michman Chernilovsky-Sokol, whose former dress was torn with splinters; the fire was very serious, as the cartridges with smokeless powder were burning, the deck and whaleboat No. 1. The fire came from a projectile that exploded on the deck while being hit: 6-dm guns Nos. VIII and No. IX and 75-mm gun № 21, 47-mm guns №№ 27 and 28.


There is an assumption that the above passage is a description of the first hit in the "Varyag". The violation of the sequence is explained by the fact that the ship itself could not be clearly seen from the Varyag's conning tower and could have completely failed to record the time of the explosion in the stern, causing shells that hit a difference of several minutes (and getting into the bridge two minutes later, 12.37) and "swapped" in the description. The author of this article is inclined to the same opinion, but it should be noted that, perhaps (although unlikely, but more on that later), the fragment quoted above could relate to another cruise hit that happened ten minutes later in 12.45, and almost same place.

The second is that Chiyoda entered the battle. According to the “Battle Report” of its commander, Murakami Kakuiti, the fire was fired from the bow and stern 120-mm guns, as well as guns of the same caliber of the left side, while the distance to the Varyag was 6 000 m. However, given that Chiyode did not record hits in the cruiser, this distance could be determined incorrectly.

Thirdly, on Nanive, they raised a signal “Do not go far”, addressed to Takachiho. Obviously, S. Uriu no longer saw the point of building an “echeloned defense” against the Varyag breakthrough, placing his cruisers on several lines, preferring to “hold him in a vice” right after leaving the fairway to the reach.

And, finally, the fourth - at about the same time with the turn of “Asama”, “Varyag” turned to the left. The fact is that before this, “Varyag”, apparently, was somewhere closer to the middle of the fairway, possibly closer to its right side. As we have said, the courses and speeds of the Asama and Varyag were close to parallel, but they nevertheless converged and led to the fact that the steering angle (aft for the Japanese and nasal for the Russians) became more and more acute - turning it to the left increased it for "Varyag" and, apparently, allowed to enter into battle 152-mm guns, located in the stern of the cruiser. At the same time, the new course "Varyag" could not lead to an accident, as the Russian cruiser was close enough to leave the fairway: following the new course, he did not "crash" into his left border, but went to the reach. Judging by the Japanese descriptions, since 12.35 there was an increase in fire from the cruiser, so we can reasonably assume that the whole Varyag was able to open fire only on 12.35, and before that he fired only 3, possibly 4 nasal guns.

12.37 - the second hit in the "Varyag" - 152-mm projectile with "Asam" hit the right wing of the front bridge. It is interesting that the “Battle Report” of the commander of “Asama” does not mention him, this hit was observed and recorded on the “Naniwa”. The description of this hit in the Varyag logbook looks like this:

“One of the first shells of the Japanese who fell into the cruiser destroyed the right wing of the front bridge, caused a fire in the navigator's cabin and interrupted the forerunners, and the junior navigator, who determined the distance, Michman Count Alexei Nirod, was killed and all range finders of station No. 1 were killed or wounded. After this shot, the shells began to fall into the cruiser more often, and the non-flying shells were torn when they hit the water and showered with splinters and destroyed superstructures and lifeboats. ”


Surprisingly, this record was the reason for numerous “revelations” of Vsevolod Fyodorovich Rudnev “on the Internet” and not only. One complaint was that this text was the first description of a Japanese hit, and many found it based on this that hitting the bridge “Varyag” was the first hit for the fight. And if so, then the phrase “one of the first shells hit the cruiser” is false (it was necessary to write “first hit”) and aims to give the reader an impression of many hits, while at that time it was only only one thing.

However, as we can see, this point of view is refuted by the “Battle Report” of the commander of “Asama”, who recorded the first hit in “Varyag” in the area of ​​the stern bridge two minutes earlier and noted the severe fire that it caused. At the same time, judging by the fact that the description of hitting shkantsy (cited above) in the logbook of the Varyag is set after, and not before the description of hitting the bridge, and the exact time of hitting is not indicated, most likely indicates that on the cruiser, they simply did not understand their sequence and were not sure which of them had happened before. Hence, the indication “one of the first projectiles,” by the way, is absolutely fair, because it was the second one that hit the bridge.

Another claim was made by one of the most detailed critics of V.F. Rudnev, historian N. Chornovil in his "Review at Cape Chemulpo", and such a casuistry is fully worthy of being quoted by us completely:

“In the cruiser logbook, shortly after the battle, V.F. Rudnev describes it like this: "One of the first shells of the Japanese who got into the cruiser destroyed the right wing of the front bridge." That is - the Japanese shot and after some time began to fall. Here among the first (actually - the first) and it was hit. But over the 2 of the year V.F. Rudnev significantly changed his “line of defense”. Here is how the same event is given in his memoirs: "One of the first Japanese shells hit the cruiser, destroyed the upper bridge." Here the impact is attributed to the first Japanese shells in general. The Japanese started shooting at 11: 45? That's when it was hit! This simple reception V.F. Rudnev is trying to create the impression that long before Fr. Iodolmi, “Varyag” has long suffered from Japanese fire ... Already had a lot of damage ... He was not fully combat-ready ... "


Let us leave aside the fact that “two years later” V.F. Rudnev did not need any protection at all for the simple reason that both he and the cruiser Varyag had long been considered generally accepted heroes, and it was unlikely that at least something could shake it. Even if, we repeat, even if under the spitz it was already retroactive to find the behavior of the Varyag commander in the 27 battle of January 1904 g inappropriate, nobody would dethrone the national hero. We'd better pay attention to the fact that the words “caught in a cruiser” actually disappeared for the first time not in the memoirs of V.F. Rudnev two years later, and already from the report of Vsevolod Fedorovich to the Manager of the Marine Ministry of 5 in March of 1905 g, that is, he was composed much earlier than his memories.

It would seem that this only confirms the point of view of N. Chornovil. But the fact is that, as we will see later, both reports of Vsevolod Fyodorovich: both the first one, made in hot pursuit in the name of the Steward, and the second one, made more than a year after the battle for the Manager of the Navy Department, quite accurately describe the damage of the cruiser received by him before the passage of traverse about. Phalmido (Yodolmi). And if so, then what's the point of VF? Rudnev mislead someone regarding the time of hits? After all, if a number of shells hit the cruiser in the interval from 12.20 to 12.40, are there many differences in what specific time they hit? The only meaning of such a statement (about the death of Count AM Nyrod at the very beginning of the battle) would have to justify the bad shooting of the “Varyag” - they didn’t get there, because “the main long-distance meter” died, but the fact is that in his second report and memoirs VF Rudnev describes very large losses for the Japanese, so there can be no talk of any bad shooting (and therefore its justification). In general, a similar lie VF. Rudnev did not win anything at all, so is it worth blaming him for her then?

And if you look at things impartially, the phrase “One of the first shells of the Japanese who got into the cruiser” is read in two ways - on the one hand, V.F. Rudnev did not say anything superfluous here and his words are true, but on the other hand it can be understood as if several shells hit the cruiser, and only one of them describes the cruiser’s logbook. Thus, removing Vsevolod Fyodorovich from the second report and the memoirs of “those who got into the cruiser”, on the contrary, ruled out the possibility of an erroneous interpretation, which suggests that these same shells fell into the cruiser more than described.

But there is one more thing to note. The fact is that the study of the reports and memoirs of V.F. Rudnev's incontrovertible evidence - their author was completely devoid of literary talent. Without a doubt, Vsevolod Fedorovich, like any educated person of that era, was able to articulate his thoughts clearly and concisely on paper, but ... and only. His report to the governor was almost the literal extract from the Varyag logbook, the report to the Head of the Navy Ministry was almost a complete copy of the Head of the report, with some details added, and the memories again look no more than an expanded copy of the report to the Head of the Navy Department. The author of this article, who, by the nature of his profession, had a lot to do with documents and people, their components, knows from personal experience that it is very difficult for people of such a warehouse to give an exhaustive written description of an event. Even knowing exactly how everything happened in reality, it is difficult for them to put it on paper so as not to miss anything and at the same time avoid ambiguous interpretations of what was written.

But back to the battle of "Varyag".

12.38 Cruiser and gunboat remained a few minutes in order to get aboard Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi). We briefly summarize what happened during these 18 minutes of the battle:

1. The cruiser of the Japanese squadron did not try to block the exit from the fairway at about. Phalmido (Yodolmi), and in three groups ("Asama" and "Chiyoda", "Naniwa" and "Niytaka", "Takachiho" and "Akashi") went towards the eastern channel. At the same time, their courses were almost parallel to the one followed by the Russian ships, but they were going in the same direction, while the Varyag and the Koreyets were approaching Fr. Phalmido, the Japanese were moving away from him. And only at the end of the first minutes of the fight 18 "Asama" began to turn around.

2. Thanks to this maneuver of the Japanese and the low speed of the Russian squad in the first 15 minutes, the Varyag fought with only one Japanese cruiser out of six - the Asama, which turned out to be the closest to him. Then Chiyoda joined the armored cruiser of the Japanese and developed intensive fire on Varyag, but he participated in the battle for only three minutes to 12.38. “Naniwa” gave several sighting shots, and, not having achieved any success, he disappeared behind Fr. Phalmido, other cruisers did not open fire at all.

3. Russian ships have almost overcome the most unpleasant place for them - the Chemulpo fairway, and with minimal losses for themselves: “Varyag” received 2 hits, “Korean” - not one. Now the cruiser and the gunboat went "to the operating room," that is, to a very wide reach, where they could fight not only with fire, but also with maneuver. Of course, here they fell under the concentrated fire of the Japanese squadron, but this, in any case, should have happened once.

And here Vsevolod Fedorovich gave an order, which, in the author’s opinion, became the culmination of stories "Varyag": it is there that hide the answers to the numerous questions raised by opponents of the official point of view on the 27 battle of January 1904.

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  1. +6
    5 October 2018 07: 15
    and as always in the most interesting place
    1. 0
      5 October 2018 09: 08
      After "Asama" began to move at 12-20 almost parallel to the "Varyag" course, he turned to the intersection of the Russian course at 12-22 and opened fire at the same time (12-22).
      So the commander of "Varyag", after a while, realized that without speed, he fell under deadly fire, significantly superior to the enemy forces.
      And he quite rightly decided that without speed, he had nothing to catch (neither break into any channel, nor ram the leaving enemy). As a result, he decided to turn to the opposite course, which was the only competent action of Rudnev, for the entire "Chemulpin epic" (otherwise the losses would have significantly exceeded those in reality).
  2. +3
    5 October 2018 09: 17
    My regards hi If Rudnev won nothing by such a lie, then why lie? They lie, Andrei Nikolayevich, always with some purpose. Just lie so that later to say that it doesn't mean anything, no one will ever be. Like "come on, I was just joking, why did you immediately attack?" In human psychology, lying is always associated with solving certain problems. People lie in order to hide something, to embellish, to accuse ... Therefore, if a person lied, then simply saying "it doesn't mean anything anyway" won't work. request But you acknowledge that Rudnev lied Yes You can forgive and ignore, say, inaccuracies in time (the battle is still time pressure for the body's psyche), missed a moment (as for the enemy). But to talk about something that never happened is too much! Here "well, Rudnev won nothing with a lie, therefore it is not significant!" It was this lie of Rudnev about the sunk ships of the Japanese with the infliction of grievous damage that triggered this whole story with clarification of the details of the battle.
    And Rudnev with this lie certainly does not look like an honest, white and fluffy hero .... Although, as the hero of one popular TV series used to say in his time - "Everyone is lying." And free a person from a lie on the basis that she still did not give a ride No.
    The article is a definite plus! smile
    PS Me the technical side of the study of the issue and almost all the explanations of the moments of the battle so far are satisfied. I’m just wondering how Rudnev’s lie in the report will fit in with reality wink And so far, Andrei Nikolayevich, the answer "Rudnev has not won anything with this lie anyway, is it worth it to blame him" does not suit me at all ..... Your words only prove that Rudnev was lying. He lied, but missed something or made a mistake ... And a lie aggravates the guilt of the liar, and does not whitewash him ... And you have not yet explained why he lied ... But you could write the truth, unadorned with sunken ships, the deceased commander of the Asama and a fantastic consumption of shells ...
    Best regards hi
    This is just a personal opinion. smile
    1. 0
      5 October 2018 09: 34
      sorry
      ..... "I lied, and NOT missed something or made a mistake ...
    2. +2
      5 October 2018 10: 22
      Quote: Rurikovich
      .But he could write the truth, without embellishment, with the sunken ships, the dead commander of the "Asama" and the fantastic consumption of shells.


      This is what he originally wrote. In "REVUE DU CERCLE MILITAIRE" dated February 27, 1904, a telegram from VF Rudnev dated February 18, 1904 was published, with a brief description of the battle. There are no Japanese ships set on fire or sunk. Perhaps later it was necessary to create a feat and the events were corrected. It is clear that they will sound most convincingly from the lips of V.F.Rudnev himself.
      1. 0
        5 October 2018 13: 37
        Quote: 27091965i
        Perhaps later it was required to create a feat and events were adjusted. It is clear that they will most convincingly sound from the lips of V. Rudnev himself

        So I want to know the explanation of this very moment !!! fellow
      2. +4
        5 October 2018 21: 07
        It doesn’t matter that there are no Japanese ships set ablaze in the telegram.
        It’s bad that they are in the Varyaga logbook. And it’s completely nasty that in the memoirs of Rudnev the commander of Asama dies. No one pulled the tongue of Rear Admiral, which means he lied out of a love of art.
    3. +3
      5 October 2018 14: 00
      Quote: Rurikovich
      if Rudnev won nothing by such a lie, then why lie?

      Hence the conclusion - he did not lie :)))))))
      1. +1
        5 October 2018 19: 27
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Hence the conclusion - he did not lie

        Regarding hits in your ships, their time, description of damage - yes, I believe. But the big loss to the Japanese? belay Any sane person will give that information in which he is sure, because the official paper can be checked over time. request
        1. +5
          5 October 2018 21: 04
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Regarding hits in your ships, their time, description of damage - yes, I believe.

          I’m talking about them :)))
          Quote: Rurikovich
          But the big loss to the Japanese? belay Any sane person will give that information in which he is sure

          The entire next, already written article, is devoted to absurdities in the Rudnev report :))))) Let me not anticipate, there ... in general, come, it will be interesting :))) hi drinks
          1. 0
            5 October 2018 21: 36
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I’m talking about them :)))

            Then the question is still being removed !! fellow
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Allow me not to anticipate, there ... in general, come, it will be interesting :))) hi drinks

            You know - I am always with you! drinks hi
    4. +2
      5 October 2018 15: 05
      Quote: Rurikovich
      It was this Rudnev’s lie about the sunken ships of the Japanese with the infliction of severe damage on them that was the trigger in this whole story with the clarification of the details of the battle.


      Lying? Unverified intelligence. information, misinformation of the interested party, exaggeration caused by ambiguity.
      Lie to the ship commander when there are dozens of witnesses? With the officers?

      I understand when in the Second World War the warring parties destroyed many more planes and tanks than were released by industry ...
      It is difficult for a pilot in an air battle to keep track of an enemy aircraft diving with a smoky trail, whether it fell or went to its airfield at low level. An anti-tank gun - each damaged tank looks like a "Tiger".
      And the machine gunner, who considers all fallen enemies, is considered dead ...

      However, it is difficult for the cruiser commander to lie frankly, knowing that the cruiser is lost and a commission will be appointed that will collect and compare the testimonies of at least officers and midshipmen.

      Rudnev relied on unconfirmed sources, gave out the desired, for the real - definitely.
      This does not reduce the feat of the commander of the cruiser Varyag and the crew, by no means.
      1. 0
        5 October 2018 19: 14
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Rudnev relied on unconfirmed sources, gave out the desired, for the real - definitely.

        My teacher of the Russian language said: "Kazau Ivan, sho bachyu Stsyapan, yak zhi ... sorry, the Jews ate." And she taught me never to give untrusted information, so as not to look like a donkey later. The question is - why should Rudnev give unverified information in an official document? wink hi
        1. +2
          5 October 2018 21: 05
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Question - why should Rudnev give unverified information in an official document?

          Because he had no verified information, but there were a million rumors. Here it would be necessary not to give any information at all, or to give with reference to sources. Rudnev chose the second
          1. 0
            8 October 2018 13: 05
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: Rurikovich
            Question - why should Rudnev give unverified information in an official document?

            Because he had no verified information, but there were a million rumors. Here it would be necessary not to give any information at all, or to give with reference to sources. Rudnev chose the second


            Dear Andrew.
            In the military and naval hierarchy, subordinate commanders have the obligation to report to higher commanders / authorities any information available to them, even from sources that cannot be verified.
            If the commander does not have the opportunity to confirm or deny the intelligence received - he is still obliged to report it as is, indicating the source and accompanying them with a comment (according to data from / from, etc., the source is completely reliable / not reliable)
            If each commander begins to interpret the data: to report it, but this is not necessary - chaos will come.
            Therefore, it is customary to report all information verbatim, everything that can be of value. At the General Staffs there are corresponding intelligence departments, the responsibility of which is to analyze and verify the incoming intelligence, systematize the sources.
            MGS was no exception.
            So Rudnev, indicating the information he received and their source, fulfilled his official duties - it was not his task, to verify this information - there are corresponding officers in the Moscow State School for this.

            Anyone who claims that Rudnev is lying - simply does not understand the principles of the army hierarchy and the duties of an officer in the post of commander.
            His direct duty was to report all that was possible to find out and indicate the sources, which was done.
        2. -2
          7 October 2018 10: 23
          Yes, he lied, he lied corny. And all these gold-laden nobility were the same: they got used to pianos and leather chairs with cigars in wardrooms. but to go into battle and die - they disagree on this. Therefore, Rudnev lied, and the officers were silent.

          The marine corps (where the gold epaulettes were prepared) was one of the 4 most-most privileged educational institutions of the Empire. Level - Page Corps from the same category, that is, the very most. And here they are, such gold majors, but in battle, to death? The very fact of the presence of two classes of officers (gold epaulets and silver epaulets - i.e. navigator and engineers) on the same ship is an abomination. So: it was precisely because of the gold miners, because of their pianos and chairs, that the REV was lost.

          But that was a retreat. This is about Rudnev: naturally, it is quite natural that Rudnev was corny lying. And he was not going to break through with a fight knowingly - all he wanted was to demonstrate to his superiors that he "did what he could." I didn't. And I wasn't even going to.
          Rudnev was worse than the rest of the gold diggers - he was not only a gold digger. he was also "Alekseev's man" (and this characterizes)
          1. +2
            7 October 2018 13: 27
            Quote: AK64
            Yes, he lied, he lied corny.

            We have a free country, and you have every right to believe in any nonsense at your own discretion :))))
            1. 0
              7 October 2018 16: 14
              Well, that is, there are no arguments, only rudeness remains? So?
              1. 0
                7 October 2018 16: 51
                Quote: AK64
                Well, that is, there are no arguments, only rudeness remains? So?

                Excuse me, but in your post there was an argument somewhere? I didn’t notice something. As a matter of fact, there is one fact - the division of combat officers and mechanics, however, it has nothing to do with your judgments.
                You expressed your, unconfirmed opinion, I answered mine. And then you thought about the arguments laughing
        3. 0
          8 October 2018 11: 46
          Quote: Rurikovich
          And she taught, never to give untrusted information, so as not to look like a donkey later. Question - why should Rudnev give unverified information in an official document?


          Do not confuse life and the army hierarchy.
          In the army, any information is important - until it is proved that this intelligence is not correct.
          The American commander, having quite reliable intelligence from decryptors of diplomatic codes about the destruction of ciphers at the Japanese embassies in the USA that precedes the war, did not timely inform the commander of the Pacific Fleet and Navy in the Pacific, a fiasco in the structure of the distribution of intelligence of the US Army and Navy, the result is known to all.

          Therefore, in the army strictly - lower-ranking commanders must inform the higher leadership of any important intelligence.
          The ship's commander is obliged to bring to the higher management any information received from various sources accessible to him - it is not his duty to analyze this data!
          He only indicates the source. And analysts interpret the data and double-check according to other sources.
          Of course, Rudnev, having received exaggerated information about the losses of the Japanese (and this is always the main task of misinformation - to understate or exaggerate the strength or results of battles), did not escape the temptation to report the results of the battle in the form in which he would like to believe himself and the received misinformation went higher.
          Well, I don’t know the corresponding conclusion about this source in the Moscow State Military School, but the analysis of sources of intelligence is the main task of intelligence of the General Staff.
    5. 0
      5 October 2018 15: 08
      Rurikovich, do you want Andrei to write like: "Rudnev is a pathological liar and everything that he wrote lies"?
      1. 0
        5 October 2018 19: 09
        Quote: vladcub
        so that Andrei would write like: "Rudnev is a pathological liar and everything that he wrote lies"?

        belay Fear God! Not on your nelly!! Andrei is my favorite author. The topic is just slippery. wink We all know the truth. So Rudnev lied. request
      2. +2
        6 October 2018 02: 55
        Quote: vladcub
        Do you want Andrey to write like: "Rudnev is a pathological liar

        Judging by the captain of the 1st rank Yashiro Rokuro, who "died" in Rudnev's memoirs, the diagnosis was correct.
        Pathological liars differ from ordinary liars in that the pathological liar is confident that he is telling the truth, and at the same time gets used to the role.
        For example, at first Rudnev wrote about the alleged fire that engulfed the Asama bridge, but three years later this seemed to him not enough, and the ship's commander was placed in the fire.
        One could accept the point of view that Vsevolod Fedorovich was just reading fake news, but his later passage with Rokuro erodes this version. Immediately evident, the man got accustomed to the role.
    6. -1
      13 October 2018 19: 45
      Lied to create a reason to exit the hopeless battle, saved the team.

      because otherwise it turns out that the ammunition is almost full, the guns have minor damage that can be fixed on the spot, the steering gear is intact - why did the ship leave the battle?
  3. +5
    5 October 2018 10: 54
    My mother is a woman! And these are only the "first shots" !!!
    Will we reach the finals for the New Year?
    (Do not pay attention to a colleague, I’m so grumbling :))))
    1. +1
      5 October 2018 11: 48
      Will we reach the finals for the New Year?

      But the volume of the text of your "Way to the Balkans" on samizdat is progressing well, it reads great ... but when will we get to the Balkans? Probably also for Christmas Eve)))
      1. +1
        5 October 2018 13: 32
        Well, in the courtyard of March, until May, not long left :)))
    2. 0
      5 October 2018 15: 02
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      My mother is a woman! And these are only the "first shots" !!!

      Nuuu, already the second :)))) About the first shots was the previous article :)))) This one - about the first hits :)))
      1. 0
        5 October 2018 15: 22
        Is number 13 missing by American tradition? Or is there a closed publication with secret knowledge for the elite? :)
        1. 0
          5 October 2018 15: 39
          Quote: MooH
          Is number 13 missing by American tradition? Or is there a closed publication with secret knowledge for the elite? :)

          Number 13 disguised as another number 12. laughing
          Link "The cruiser "Varyag". Battle of Chemulpo on January 27, 1904. Part 13. First shots"there is a transition to an article called"The cruiser "Varyag". Battle of Chemulpo on January 27, 1904. Part 12. First shots".
          1. 0
            5 October 2018 21: 06
            That's right, sir eyewash :)
    3. +2
      9 October 2018 13: 18
      I reveal the intrigue in all of Andrei’s articles from Chelyabinsk: the Varangian and Korean will not break through. Askold after the battle in the Yellow Sea will go to Shanghai, Novik will be sunk off Sakhalin. Ishmael and Co. will not be completed. Ideologies in the Russian Federation in the generally accepted sense of the word do not and will not be in the foreseeable future.
      Your Cap Evidence wassat AKA Wildcat. hi
      How long! request When will the new appear in the series of articles "The Russian Navy. A Sad Look into the Future". recourse crying
      PLEASE !!!! feel
  4. 0
    5 October 2018 12: 05
    +++ to the author, the battle has begun! Surprisingly, even under fire, they waited 2 minutes. bye to them it seemed that they left the ter.water! As Rudnev said, he was a diplomat (and not a battleship commander), although they don’t like fools there either. But probably the distance was considered as inappropriate ...
    to correctly determine the distance, it was necessary to know exactly the height of the target, that is, the distance from the waterline to the tops of the masts. Only in this case, the micrometer allowed to calculate the distance correctly

    This is a very likely reason, besides "masthead"variable value.
    1. 0
      5 October 2018 15: 01
      "the top of the mast" is not a constant value "yes it does the sitting ..
      1. +3
        5 October 2018 16: 13
        Of course, she does not perform "squats", but her height above sea level is really not a constant value. As well as the draft of the ship, it depends on the mass of cargo taken on board. Those. full coal stock accepted = waterline submerged, = mast height above sea level decreased.
        1. 0
          7 October 2018 16: 16
          and the distance between the masts?
          1. 0
            8 October 2018 09: 12
            And how can this information help?
            1. 0
              8 October 2018 22: 58
              What is the difference what to measure?
              1. +1
                9 October 2018 10: 32
                I'm sorry, what was your geometry?
                I explain on the fingers. With a goniometer, you can measure only the angle (and, as far as I understand, only vertical, but let). One side of the triangle - the height of the mast, or in your case the distance between the masts, is known. If we measure the height, then another angle is known ... of the mast itself. It is clear that it is straight :)) But if you measure the angle between the masts ... how do you know the other angles? After all, you can only imagine his course regarding your ship.
          2. -1
            13 October 2018 19: 48
            the distance between the masts for the observer depends on the course angle of the target.
  5. +1
    5 October 2018 13: 48
    Author!!!! Shkants on ANY !!! ship are BEFORE the feed tools
    1. 0
      5 October 2018 21: 07
      That's right, sorry for the mistake. Strictly speaking, not on any, it would be more accurate to say on any ship of those years, but - undoubtedly
  6. 0
    5 October 2018 14: 57
    Quote: Gagrid
    and as always in the most interesting place

    Andrei knows how to intrigue him.
  7. +4
    5 October 2018 15: 38
    I have long liked Andrei’s works: they have AUTHORITY and impartiality, but sometimes even bite anger: intriguingly pauses. Kamrad Kotische has long since been prepared for the guilty, and Andrei is in no hurry to name the guilty.
    I, like everyone else, got used to it since childhood: "Varyag's feat" is an axiom and therefore I reacted negatively to Shirokorad's publication that there was no feat, but ordinary conspiracy and betrayal, and the arguments were "iron": I said so, and then it is pointless to argue. " Andrei's impartiality and reliability captivate: he could have tried to whitewash Rudnev, but he does not do this, on the contrary, he reproaches VF Rudnev and, as it were, with confirmation, in order to refute them later. In my opinion, this is a sign of professionalism and excellent knowledge material.Unfortunately, not all authors have a similar feature
    1. 0
      6 October 2018 17: 48
      [/ quote] I have been fond of Andrei’s works for a long time: in them are AUTHORITY and impartiality, [quote]

      TS claims twice that the courses "Asam" and "Varyag", were close to parallel after the start of the shooting and immediately gives a diagram where the mentioned courses converge at an angle close to 45 degrees.
      And where is the credibility here? Or this, in the parallel reality of the TS, reliably?
      1. -1
        13 October 2018 19: 51
        for a parallel universe of idiots I explain - this is the trajectory of the ships for the whole battle. You need to look at the time stamps - on which part of the trajectory the ship is. Or for you, traces of tire splashing in the snow mean that cars crashed into each other?
  8. BAI
    0
    5 October 2018 19: 44
    I may be missing something. The number of shots of the Varangian was considered in detail. And how many shots were fired at the Varangian?
    1. 0
      5 October 2018 21: 06
      Quote: BAI
      And how many shots were fired at the Varangian?

      Yes, of course, this data is very accurate. We will reach them, until I brought them
    2. -1
      13 October 2018 19: 53
      The fact of the matter is that the number of shots of the Japanese is reliably known. But Rudnev lied, and seriously, and therefore this issue is considered in such detail.
  9. +2
    6 October 2018 02: 38
    “And here Vsevolod Fedorovich gave an order, which, according to the author, became the culmination of the history of the Varyag: it is in it that the answers to the numerous questions raised by opponents of the official point of view on the battle on January 27, 1904 are hidden.
    To be continued ... "(C).

    Mom, dear! It follows again !!!
    I already have a pre-infarction condition. Well, Andrei, well ... You are certainly a talented person ... but also the schemer of the Talleyrand School! For God's sake, do not torment the soul and tell us about everything. Article +++++++++, I can not remove my finger, but still it will be small! With one detailed analysis of these two minutes you finished me off completely. wink
    And please, help me figure out the so-called. Rudnev’s “lie”, I don’t really believe in this lie, well, after all, he wasn’t (blotted out) “alternatively smart”, right. Too somehow everything is wrong with this. Good luck! hi
    1. 0
      6 October 2018 10: 03
      an order to turn back and run as hard as possible ?! laughing
      This is definitely the climax
  10. 0
    6 October 2018 10: 11
    Quote: Avior
    an order to turn back and run as hard as possible ?! laughing
    This is definitely the climax


    Yes, for sure, it was necessary to force the cars and go head-on to the armored cruiser. "With honor" to ditch the entire crew without any damage to the enemy. I wonder what speed do you mean by "running with all his might?" Those. what speed, according to your definition, is the "drape" speed?
    In general, think strategically, dear !. bully
    1. 0
      6 October 2018 11: 12
      how I can.
      and why on the forehead if Asama walked away from him at a faster rate than the Varangian went for a breakthrough?
    2. 0
      6 October 2018 11: 20
      I wrote in detail below
    3. 0
      10 October 2018 10: 47
      One possibility was to at least try to break through at speed.
      An analysis of the actions of the Japanese shows that such a possibility existed at least probabilistically.
      To pass at low speed was impossible with all evidence.

      Conclusion: Rudnev was not going to break through.
      What did he do then? And he created excuses for the bosses: "Yes, I tried - but they shot there"

      PS: other possibilities: (1) to leave at night, (2) to try to leave using foreigners as a cover, and (3) to accept the battle in the port. Rudnev’s choice is the most obviously losing one. The stolonachalnik, not the commander of the cruiser
      1. 0
        10 October 2018 12: 40
        Quote: AK64
        One possibility was to at least try to break through at speed.

        There was no such opportunity.
        Quote: AK64
        An analysis of the actions of the Japanese shows that such a possibility existed at least probabilistically.

        Knowing in advance how the Japanese would behave, breaking through at speed was all the more meaningless.
        Quote: AK64
        To pass at low speed was impossible with all evidence.

        break through - no, fight as it should - yes
        1. 0
          10 October 2018 15: 17
          There was no such opportunity.

          Yes, yes ... Of course, of course.

          Knowing in advance how the Japanese would behave, breaking through at speed was all the more meaningless.
          .
          Without even knowing how the Japanese will behave, you can guess that speed gives at least some chances. And the lack of speed gives only a chance of heroic death.

          break through - no, fight as it should - yes

          It was Rudnev who "fought properly" ??? O_o

          So yes ...
  11. +5
    6 October 2018 10: 55
    Andrei writes in such detail that some issues are immediately addressed.
    but the theme is that some remain.
    On determining distances, for example.
    In the literature, you can read that on the Korean, masts were cut before the battle, reducing their height. We know now that the Japanese had optical rangefinders, so it made no sense, but did they know about it then?
    And did the Japanese take similar measures before the fight? Were the height tables incorrect? Without confirmation of this, taking responsibility from officers Varyag and Rudnev for the low level of training is not serious.
    This is especially clear by the results of the Varyag firing before coming to Chemulop- they didn’t actually hit targets of a known size in the field conditions - what can I say about shooting in battle? Even if the cruiser was under repair, but no one interfered with the officers to train in determining distances using a hand-held device, such as the Myakishev rangefinder. As well as conducting artillery training without firing, this was actually the basis of preparation, and not practical firing of three shells per barrel.
    The example of determining the range from the Korean is, in my opinion, not very convincing, since it is not known whether the distances were determined at one time and what the distance was from the Varangian to the Korean.
    At the Varangian, at least the navigators and artillery officers should have been able to use range finders, and this is not one person, so the death of Nirod should not have affected the accuracy of the data for firing. And not reflected, by the way.
    As they did not know how to shoot, they didn’t hit. request
    Uriu’s order on the position before the battle is a good thing, of course, only he clearly did not fulfill.
    And there was an absurd situation in which Asama escaped from the Varangian at a faster speed, and not vice versa (by the way, what move the Varangian could have in this section. We read many parts in a row in detail about the power plant, but it turned out that in battle was the most reliable part of the ship winked Yes, and the Japanese are clearly not in a hurry to reduce the battle to close range, although the author wrote in detail in the comments that with this option, Varyag would instantly die. The Japanese did not read the author smile Lost a lot, by the way, one of the best in VO. However, these savages could not read VO, you can expect everything from them!).
    Why? The version that Varyag passed them forward in order to inflict the maximum damage expressed by the author in the previous second twelfth part wink , does not look convincing, if only due to the fact that Rudnev did not write about it, but wrote that it was going to break through.
    The situation will become clear if we accept that the Japanese were expecting a breakthrough from the Varangian at a speed close to the maximum - as the Varangian should have acted if he really went to the breakthrough.
    Considering that Asama boilers had much lower throttle response than Varyag boilers, Asama could not accelerate as quickly as Varyag. Therefore, the Japanese were ahead of the curve. Only now their calculation was based on the fact that the Varangian would really break through, but they were mistaken.
    If you ask yourself, are there any arguments against the fact that Rudnev was only going to imitate a breakthrough, and not really break through?
    I do not see them even in the cycle of this respected author, although they have a huge number of details that I did not know about before.
    But in favor of simulating a breakthrough, I see a lot of evidence.
    1. Rudnev decides to make a breakthrough without even trying to take advantage of the battle in the port, political and military. Moreover, he had no order to leave the neutral port. And in general, the Japanese, maybe they just took him for fear, and they would not have taken him to battle in the port. Rudnev could not know this at that time.
    2. Rudnev is not trying to use foreigners as a cover, even taking into account the fact that the Japanese would have blamed for the battle in the neutral port. Although, as an officer of the Imperial Navy, he should have done everything to inflict both military and political damage on the Japanese. And it remains to be seen whether the Japanese would be afraid of being drawn into a random shelling of foreigners in an attack on a neutral port.
    The explanation for this is very simple - Rudnev wanted to control the possibility of leaving the battle at the time he needed, and also to have foreigners in stock for evacuation, without Japanese captivity.
    A port battle involving foreigners would deprive him of both. The only way out would be a white flag and captivity (however, the Japanese formally took receipts from the team, as well as from other prisoners, about not participating in hostilities).
    3. Rudnev goes deliberately at a low speed, using neither possibly cars at full capacity (even taking into account peacetime restrictions), nor the possibility of navigation. The Japanese nearby go at a faster speed than the Varangian.
    Rudnev is afraid to move far from the neutral port before a couple of hits are made into the ship, then he will not be able to return. In principle, no breakthrough that he writes about in the report could be made at such a speed.
    4. At the very first hits, the Varyag turns into a neutral port at a speed greater than when entering a "breakout".
    All according to the plan of Rudnev. And ideal for the Japanese, they did not attack the neutral port, the Russians themselves left it, they did not touch the foreigners. Rudnev is fit to give the Japanese order for services to the Land of the Rising Sun. Rescued the Japanese from a difficult situation. Surprisingly, so far no one has conceived that Rudnev was a secret agent of the Japanese lol
    Of course, Rudnev got into a difficult situation, and how he could get out of it, but to make a hero out of him now against the background of real examples of the heroism of Russian sailors in the NEC is not serious, in my opinion.
    And although at the official level he was appointed a hero, he was more than cool among Russian military sailors. And this is logical.
    1. 0
      6 October 2018 15: 11
      Quote: Avior
      Without confirmation of this, taking responsibility from officers Varyag and Rudnev for the low level of training is not serious.

      And no one takes it. In my opinion, the article says everything clearly - there is a suspicion that there was a mistake in the directory, because on 2 ships they determined the distance the same way, but that such work was beyond the capabilities of the author. What else do you want from me? :)))
      Quote: Avior
      Even if the cruiser was under repair, but no one interfered with the officers to train in determining distances using a hand-held device, such as the Myakishev rangefinder. As well as conducting artillery training without firing, this was actually the basis of preparation, and not practical firing of three shells per barrel.

      You are mistaken a little more than completely. Firstly, such training is possible only if there is a certain object, the distance to which is known and the height of which is known. Varyag had a lot of such objects? :))))) And about the basics of preparation - as you know, it was carried out scrupulously at 1-toe, but the result of the July 28 battle was nightmarish - the quality of shooting fell significantly. Yes, in fact, common sense dictates that the main difficulty in learning is accounting for pitching, and it’s impossible to work it out at anchor
      Quote: Avior
      The example of determining the range from the Korean is, in my opinion, not very convincing, since it is not known whether the distances were determined at one time

      At one time, this follows from logbooks.
      Quote: Avior
      and what was the distance from the Varangian to the Korean.

      Less 2 cables
      Quote: Avior
      At the Varangian, at least the navigators and artillery officers should have been able to use range finders, and this is not one person, so the death of Nirod should not have affected the accuracy of the data for firing

      Only here they, oddly enough, have their duties in battle
      Quote: Avior
      Yes, and the Japanese are clearly not in a hurry to reduce the battle to close range, although the author wrote in detail in the comments that with this option, Varyag would instantly die.

      Yes, but why do the Japanese instant death of the Varangian? :)) They are quite happy with instant death, provided that they themselves will not suffer losses, and with rapprochement anything happens
      Quote: Avior
      Rudnev decides to make a breakthrough without even trying to take advantage of the battle in the port, political and military.

      Given the fact that there were neither one nor the other - the statement is rather strange. We examined this issue in detail - nothing prevented Asama, standing on the fairway, from shooting the Varangian at the anchorage, and nothing prevented the torpedo boats from torpedoing him at night.
      Quote: Avior
      Rudnev does not try to use foreigners as a cover

      Maybe it was necessary to load the Japanese-local residents on a cruiser and threaten to kill them if they did not release them into the sea?
      Quote: Avior
      Rudnev goes deliberately at a low speed, using neither possibly cars at full capacity (even taking into account peacetime restrictions), nor the possibility of navigation. The Japanese nearby go at a faster speed than the Varangian.

      Yes, about the same, actually :)))) And on the stretch, outside the fairway.
      Quote: Avior
      At the very first hits, the Varyag turns into a neutral port at a speed higher than when entering a "breakout".

      Get to this.
      1. 0
        6 October 2018 18: 15
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yes, in fact, common sense dictates that the main difficulty in learning is accounting for pitching, and it’s impossible to work it out at anchor


        Unfortunately, the main difficulty was different.
        1. 0
          6 October 2018 18: 59
          Quote: 27091965i
          Unfortunately, the main difficulty was different.

          What is it? :)
          1. 0
            7 October 2018 07: 13
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            What is it? :)


            In the methodology of training the commandants, and for the Russian fleet in the methods, there were too many of them, before the introduction of a single one. I think it will be more interesting to discuss in your next article, which will deal directly with the battle. hi
      2. +1
        7 October 2018 09: 59
        I can’t write for a long time, maybe someday I’ll write in an extended way, you can criticize in full wink
        No conclusions can be drawn from the comparison of logbooks and, especially, the reports of Rudnev and Belyaev, since they were not written at the time of the battle, but later, with the possibility of exchanging opinions between the writers.
        in one of the previous parts you yourself came to the conclusion that there was no noticeable and serious hit in Asama’s cabin with the occurrence of a fire, nevertheless it was noted in the magazines of both the Varangian and the Korean in almost the same words.
        What can we say about the reports.
        Moreover, what did they look in the tables, if the names and number of Japanese ships Rudnev found out after the battle, what does he write in the report?
        no need to multiply entities.
        You can train with a manual rangefinder from any boat, if you want to take into account the pitching, and there is no problem finding a suitable ship in the raid.
        And during the battle, the task is more important than the rangefinder, and it is difficult to imagine. And if Rudnev could not single out one officer from several for this, then his shortcomings. Or they were not ready for this.
        As for the commendors, there was a fire control system on the Varyag, with the transfer of information to the guns, but who is the artillery officer during or the start-up? during the battle they ran to the guns to check whether the commandors were able to set sights according to the transmitted data.
        This could be easily learned during the repair. There would be a desire from Rudnev and the officers of the ship. And what about the pitching of the gunners, by the way?
        As for the distance, so what is disadvantageous to the Japanese, automatically beneficial to the Russians. Otherwise it can not be. And the Japanese clearly did not want close combat.
        Shooting from the anchor in the fairway is not from the hand - the current is strong.
        And if suddenly Rudnev decides to go deeper, or vice versa, come up and undermine with the enemy, how long does it take to choose an anchor?
        It makes no sense to take Koreans hostage, and taking advantage of the foreigners ’exit situation is the right decision. Just don't ask them
        Consent, which in principle they can’t give if they want. I wrote this to the last part, it seems you have not read.
        It is clear that Rudnev fell into a disgusting position, and there was no ideal option, it was only possible to increase or decrease the probability of getting out of the situation, based on the knowledge that Rudnev had.
        And a breakthrough was the worst option.
        And then, as Rudnev imitated it, a little better, first of all for Rudnev.

        And the fact that the Varangian chased after Asama is generally ridiculous when breaking through.
        Andrei, can you cite not Rudnev’s declarations or your assumptions, but facts that would refute the assertion that Rudnev only imitated a breakthrough?
        I have never seen such.
        1. +1
          7 October 2018 13: 25
          Andrei, can you cite not Rudnev’s declarations or your assumptions, but facts that would refute the assertion that Rudnev only imitated a breakthrough?
          I have never seen such.

          so for you, any fact is not a fact if you do not like it :))))
          You write
          Quote: Avior
          No conclusions can be drawn from the comparison of logbooks and, especially, the reports of Rudnev and Belyaev, since they were not written at the time of the battle, but later, with the possibility of exchanging opinions between the writers.

          There is a fact - the same description of the distance at the beginning of the battle with two corbles. But he does not suit you, because he does not fit into your theory. And since he doesn’t fit in there, then you, on the basis of MATCHES (but you could have conspired later!), Do not take it into account.
          At the same time, you do not have a single evidence that such a conspiracy took place to be (I will write about its difficulties in articles later). This is not a fact, this is just some eventual opportunity, but for you this is enough to ignore the fact :)))))
          Quote: Avior
          in one of the previous parts you yourself came to the conclusion that there was no noticeable and serious hit in Asama’s cabin with the occurrence of a fire, nevertheless it was noted in the magazines of both the Varangian and the Korean in almost the same words.

          That says about one thing - there was a certain visual effect, extremely similar to the fire on "Asam". That's all. In battle, this happens all the time.
          Quote: Avior
          And during the battle, the task is more important than the rangefinder, and it is difficult to imagine.

          In fact, you are mistaken a little less than completely, extrapolating later situations to the Varangian - however, we will consider this more.
          Quote: Avior
          As for the commendors, there was a fire control system on the Varyag, with the transfer of information to the guns, but who is the artillery officer during or the start-up? during the battle they ran to the guns to check whether the commandors were able to set sights according to the transmitted data.

          For whom did I post an article about "Askold"? :))))) Well, okay, if you don't understand, wait then, we'll get to that, I'll explain quite simply
          1. 0
            7 October 2018 23: 52
            There is a fact - the same description of the distance at the beginning of the battle with two corbles. But he does not suit you, because he does not fit into your theory. And since he doesn’t fit in there, then you, on the basis of MATCHES (but you could have conspired later!), Do not take it into account.

            The sameness at the beginning is only in the report, and not in the logbooks. Magazines themselves were written after the battle.
            The fact of the same figure alone does not prove anything, again the same figure is suspiciously.
            In my opinion, it’s just you who make an unreasonable assumption about an alleged error in the tables.
            I did not seem to read about Askold, there is not much time.
            But it was not the work of the system, but the fact that the officer did not trust his subordinates in a simple procedure that could be worked out during repairs.
            That says about one thing - there was a certain visual effect, extremely similar to the fire on "Asam

            which the Japanese did not notice?
            Did you notice only in two related documents?
            In my opinion, this is precisely the "unreasonable assumption", which uses as a basis the fact that the truth is written in the watch, and nothing but the truth, and only an explanation of what is written is required. Religious approach, in my opinion smile
          2. +1
            8 October 2018 00: 03
            Andrei, you did not answer the question, can you give facts confirming that Rudnev did not imitate a breakthrough?
            Exactly facts, not his declarations and your assumptions like errors in tables or "the visual effect of hitting Asama (which you previously denied) and the occurrence of a fire on it"? I understand that the absence of such facts does not in itself prove Rudnev's imitation of a breakthrough, but this is an important link in considering this issue. You consider the topic very carefully and meticulously, therefore, if such facts really exist, who else, if not you, should you ask them?
            I’ll try to see an article about Askold.
            I look forward to continuing the cycle hi
            1. +2
              8 October 2018 17: 50
              Quote: Avior
              Andrei, you did not answer the question, can you give facts confirming that Rudnev did not imitate a breakthrough?

              Sergey, I'm sorry, but such a proof is impossible even theoretically. How do you imagine this, interesting? :)))) Here, for example, your friend slept with a girl. Can you strictly prove that she did not imitate an orgasm at the same time, but really experienced it? :)))))
        2. 0
          8 October 2018 09: 50
          And what about the pitching of the gunners, by the way?

          M ... yes! And after this question, you try ... well, okay.
          The fact is that ships are prone to rolling. You know the waves. It can be onboard, keel, big or small, depending on the state of the sea, but it is always there. And it is almost impossible to compensate for it. Therefore, the shot must be fired when the ship is on an even keel. On later ships, for this there was a special device that closed the contacts of the electric launch when the ship was on, this very, even keel and thus fired a salvo. But at the time of the RYV this device, not that there was not at all, the first samples were tried to be installed on Vesta (with a negative result, as you know), but their accuracy was completely unsatisfactory.
          Therefore, the commandants were taught to fire a gun only when the ship is on an even keel, be it wrong! And it was this skill that was practiced during the so-called stem firing, which only the lazy did not kick for primitiveness.
          So, while the ship is at the repair wall, it will not work to train its gunners. Pitching in this case - no! This is not to say that the problem is not understood and not tried to be solved. For this, a single ship was allocated from the fleet, designated as a training artillery ship, and the artillerymen could conduct exercises on it. This is well described by Lutonin in his memoirs, how he used every opportunity to send the gunners of the "Poltava" to every ship going to shoot. By the way, the Donskoy cruiser, which was part of the Virennius detachment, was supposed to become a regular training and artillery ship of the First Squadron.
          But there is a problem. The fact is that the ship’s pitching is a purely individual thing. That is, its scope, amplitude and so on, on different ships - are different. And the skill obtained on the cruiser will help very little the commandant of the battleship and vice versa.
          Thus, if you want your gunners to shoot well, then you need to not just train them, but on the ship on which they will go into battle.
          Something like that.
          1. 0
            8 October 2018 10: 08
            On later ships, there was a special device for this, closing the contacts of the electric trigger when the ship was on this same even keel and thus made a volley. But in the days of the REV of this device, it’s not that there wasn’t ...

            Dear colleague, senior sailor, everything that was written here like this, but wondered if the Geisler’s system had the technical ability to ship 1ToE ships, the senior artilleryman, to close contacts from the wheelhouse? There and so the parameters of the shot are determined (rear sight and possibly the front sight). Then it will be necessary to train 2-3 officers, not 12-14 commandants, although they are also not superfluous with regard to the failure of the system.
            1. 0
              8 October 2018 15: 35
              As far as I know, no.
  12. +3
    6 October 2018 11: 18
    and one more thing.
    about the literary talents of Rudnev, which the author did not appreciate very much.
    in my opinion, the situation is exactly the opposite - the report of Rudnev is not a dry report of an officer about events, it is rather a composition of an epistolary genre from an experienced courtier who knows how to please the tsar
    At 11:20 the cruiser weighed anchor with the boat "Koreets", which entered the wake at a distance of one and a half cables. On foreign ships, teams and officers were lined up at the front, on the Italian cruiser, the Russian anthem was playing, and "hurray" was shouted as we passed.

    By the way, in the same report, Rudnev writes that he learned the names of Japanese ships after the battle from the British, so the error in determining distances could be due to incorrect recognition of ships by silhouettes
    1. -1
      6 October 2018 15: 12
      Quote: Avior
      this is not an officer’s dry report on events, it’s rather a composition of the epistolary genre from an experienced courtier who knows how to please the king

      And as proof, you bring this passage here? :))))))) Seriously? :)))) Read Semenov and Lutonin for a change :)))
      1. -1
        7 October 2018 09: 31
        What for?
        It's enough.
  13. 0
    6 October 2018 11: 20
    Quote: Avior

    And although at the official level he was appointed a hero, he was more than cool among Russian military sailors. And this is logical.


    If possible, give as an example the source (s) that would specifically say who, when, and how cool. hi
    1. 0
      6 October 2018 11: 53
      read about the ambiguous attitude to Rudnev more than once.
      e.g. https://topwar.ru/21993-kreyser-varyag-posle-bala.html
      The details that you ask are more difficult, although you have come across, I remember, specific facts about the attitude in society after the war.
      I will try later to rummage and bring that I will find
      1. +2
        6 October 2018 15: 17
        Quote: Avior
        I read about the ambiguous attitude to Rudnev more than once. For example, https://topwar.ru/21993-kreyser-varyag-posle-bala.html

        That is, in an article by Roman Skomorokhov, compiled on the basis of Dotsenko. Article level - Varangian gave speed more than 23 nodes wassat
        Quote: Avior
        The details that you ask are more difficult, although you have come across, I remember, specific facts about the attitude in society after the war.

        Agas I seem to even know what I mean :))))
        1. 0
          7 October 2018 09: 31
          there are no work without errors.
  14. +2
    6 October 2018 11: 48
    I didn’t notice if this picture was brought, it more clearly shows the depths at the battlefield, even if there are any inaccuracies in it

    And this is a protest of foreigners to the Japanese over the invasion of the neutral port. Pay attention to who is accused of causing damage.
    but Rudnev helped the Japanese get out of their predicament smile

    Soto Kichi Uriu, Rear Admiral, Commander of the Imperial Japanese Navy Squadron.
    Sir.
    We, the undersigned, commanders of the three neutral military courts of England, France and Italy, having learned from your letter of January 26 about the attack you are expecting at 4 o'clock in the afternoon today to attack the Russian military ships standing at Chemulpo roadstead, we have the honor to draw your attention to the following circumstance. We acknowledge that since Chemulpo port is neutral on the basis of universally recognized provisions of international law, no nation has the right to attack the ships of other nations located in this port, and the power that transgresses this law is fully responsible for any harm caused life or property at this port. Therefore, in this letter we are energetically protesting against such a violation of neutrality and will be glad to hear your opinion on this subject.
    Bailey, commander of His Majesty's Talbot ship.
    Borea, the commander of the ship "Elba".
    Senez, the commander of the ship Pascal.
    1. +1
      6 October 2018 15: 19
      Quote: Avior
      I didn’t notice if this picture was brought, it more clearly shows the depths at the battlefield, even if there are any inaccuracies in it

      In addition to the fact that the picture is one complete inaccuracy, there are no other inaccuracies anymore. Is it really so hard to look at the mission that I brought?
      And this is a protest of foreigners to the Japanese over the invasion of the neutral port

      Yeah. Only now, simultaneously with the protest, foreigners smeared the skis, preparing to leave the raid ...
      1. -1
        7 October 2018 09: 30
        and Rudnev had to leave with them.
        and the picture is good in that the depths are indicated by shades of blue that are familiar to a hunter, rather than numbers.
        what’s on it during the battle is not important.
        1. +1
          7 October 2018 13: 14
          Quote: Avior
          and the picture is good in that the depths are indicated by shades of blue that are familiar to a hunter, rather than numbers.

          And at the same time it is indicated completely incorrectly. We look at the sailing and see that just in the middle of the "huge blue sea" from the Chemulpo raid to Yodolmi, painted by your would-be marine painters, there is a huge sandbank that does not allow you to go around the island from the north. Simply put, according to your "map" you can go directly from the raid to Asama's parking lot. in fact - it is impossible
          1. 0
            7 October 2018 23: 34
            anyway, in my opinion, it is more illustrative than cards with numbers of depths.
            even so primitive, given the mistakes.
        2. +2
          8 October 2018 14: 29
          I agree with Andrey - the map is absolutely not accurate. Iodolmi cannot go around from the north to the vessel with the draft of the Varyag and the Korean. In addition, near the island of Iodolmi (and generally closer to the islands) - pitfalls.
          Even now with a modern navigation system and radars, ships are not recommended to enter independently without a pilot in these waters.
        3. 0
          10 October 2018 10: 50
          The channel there all the same to the island, the picture is misleading.
  15. 0
    6 October 2018 11: 59
    Quote: Avior
    read about the ambiguous attitude to Rudnev more than once.


    And there can be simply elementary human envy. Indeed, our fleet, unfortunately, did not glorify itself either with victorious battles or with great feats. Neither in Russian-Japanese, nor in the First World War. hi
    1. +3
      6 October 2018 12: 08
      maybe so. but there were examples of the much more heroic behavior of sailors in the REV, so she had reason.
      Of the 38 participating in the Tsushima battle from the Russian side, ships and vessels sank as a result of the enemy’s combat action, sunk or exploded by their crews - 21 (7 armadillos, 3 armored cruisers, 2 armored cruisers, 1 auxiliary cruiser, 5 destroyers, 3 vehicles) - Wikipedia .
      For example, Admiral Ushakov.
      And Rudnev somehow left for the village after his resignation, although he was formally sent to retirement with an increase.
      I read that this was due to the reluctance to accept it in society, but of course I don’t keep the link at hand, so I will not categorically state.
      1. +2
        6 October 2018 15: 21
        Quote: Avior
        And Rudnev somehow left for the village after his resignation, although he was formally sent to retirement with an increase.

        And where was he supposed to go, interesting to ask? :)
        1. +2
          7 October 2018 09: 02
          And where was he supposed to go, interesting to ask? :)

          Go to the monastery ... female!
          1. 0
            7 October 2018 13: 12
            Age hindered ..
            1. 0
              7 October 2018 15: 10
              However, married, three children :))))
              1. 0
                8 October 2018 04: 46
                Yes, a joke ... a naval officer in a convent can only ... pretty drunk when he can’t do anything ...
                Children are young.
        2. -1
          7 October 2018 09: 29
          Petersburg, where all the friends, acquaintances and colleagues are not very good for a retired admiral, the only alternative is a village. but what about.
          1. +1
            7 October 2018 14: 47
            Quote: Avior
            Petersburg, where all friends, acquaintances and colleagues are not very good for a retired admiral

            Sergey, please, somehow, try to keep at least the remnants of impartiality. V.F. Rudnev went to his small homeland, to his estate, to his native home, where he was born and spent his childhood. What is unnatural about this?
            1. 0
              7 October 2018 23: 38
              Born in Riga, at first the family lived there, then returned again, graduated from the Baltic school, at the age of 17 he entered the Marine Corps.
              "In a small homeland" did not live long, from 2 to 9 years old - that's all.
              Admiral and yesterday’s outbuilding - an adjutant at the age of 50 - the prime of life for a man - to leave the village from the capital? More than unnatural. If life is not forced, of course.
            2. +2
              8 October 2018 10: 01
              Damn, but if Vsevolod Fedorovich waved abroad - to heal? Well, what a scope for conspiracy theorists!
              They don’t know that, actually, when retired, settling in a village is normal at that time. (if there is a village, of course :)) And that in St. Petersburg the climate is bad, and life is expensive, even for a retired admiral who has three children.
      2. +4
        7 October 2018 09: 20
        Excuse me, but who do you think could have said "fairy" to the commander of the "Varyag"? "Arthurians" whose ships did the Japanese also raise and commission their fleet? Surrendered Tsushima? Or maybe dry people who didn't even have local successes?
        The notorious Shirokorad wrote about the "rejection of Rudnev by society," but as a historian he is rather so-so. And from his work it is completely unclear on the basis of what he makes such conclusions.
        1. 0
          7 October 2018 09: 27
          relatives of those who died in battle in Tsushima, for example.
          1. +1
            8 October 2018 09: 25
            Why would? People died on the Varyag too,
            By the way, there was no such thing in the then Russian society. Let me remind you that Stroynikov, who handed over the frigate Raphael to the Turks without a single shot, had two sons: Nikolai and Alexander. Nobody poked their father's deed in the eyes, both made their careers and rose to the rank of admirals.
        2. +1
          9 October 2018 02: 55
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Excuse me, but who do you think could have said "fairy" to the commander of the "Varyag"? "Arthurians" whose ships did the Japanese also raise and commission their fleet? Surrendered Tsushima?

          That's right, you say, but the fact is that neither "Tsushima" nor "Port Arthur" in Russia were carried in their arms, they were not invited to dinner with the tsar, they were not showered with ranks and crosses. And what is he, Rudnev, better than them?
          So many officers could reproach him with something like the following: “I fought, and you fought. I drowned my ship, and you drowned. I drowned no one, and you (as it turned out) drowned no one. But at least I didn’t lie. (as an option - did not repeat, embellishing, someone else's lies).
          So why do you have honors, rank and awards, and I have shish with butter, because I am more honest than you. "
          1. 0
            9 October 2018 10: 41
            Hmm ... dear Valentin, do you think whether you visited the emperor, Vice Admiral Viren, former commander of a separate detachment of ships in Port Arthur, was awarded a gold sword, the Order of St. George of the fourth class and Stanislav the first with swords? Almost the entire subordinate unit went to the Japanese and was included in their fleet.
            Well, and about "lied" already seems to be said.
            1. 0
              9 October 2018 14: 23
              Ivan, about "lying" we can discuss all the details when an article by Andrei on this topic appears.
              Viren received an award not for a specific combat episode, and the Bayan crew were not showered with crosses, and no one minted commemorative medals dedicated to the cruiser.
              I repeat, you didn’t carry the officers you listed and did not dedicate medals to them.
              Therefore, the examples you cited are incorrect.
              1. 0
                9 October 2018 15: 44
                A colleague, and doesn’t it seem to you that universal rewarding with crosses of lower ranks cannot be blamed on Rudnev? This decision (undoubtedly contradicting the statute of the order badge) was not made by him.
                1. 0
                  9 October 2018 17: 30
                  No one gives Rudnev a rebuke at the fact of distributing crosses to “varangians”.
                  It was originally about why he could cause hostility. Your humble servant expressed the opinion that this could be connected with a special attitude on the part of the authorities towards the Varyag’s crew, including its commander. And as shown in my comments, Grammatchikov, for example, could also claim a special attitude towards himself.
                  The trouble is that the real heroes of Russian-Japanese were pushed into the background. Therefore, disputes around Rudnev and his trophies do not stop.
                  1. 0
                    9 October 2018 19: 05
                    In principle, at that time, absolutely any sailor evoked, let's say, not very positive emotions in society. "Tsushima department" and all that.
                    You see, a colleague, if it had been reliably known that Gramatchikov Rudnev, or, say, the navigator Zhitkov to Berens, somewhere publicly told something about his mother, or called him a coward under the ladies, this is one question. But in fact, we do not have such information.
                    But the fact that Shirokorad (to which there are already many questions) gives out his inventions as a fact is completely different.
                    We do not have accurate information that Rudnev was somehow biased. Therefore, to judge how such an attitude could be caused, somehow even ...
        3. 0
          9 October 2018 04: 06
          By the way, here is a fragment of Reitenstein's telegram after the July 28 fight. Again "flaming" "Asama", again "sunk" destroyer.

          The rewards for this are zero, the increases are also zero. But they broke through, they saved the cruiser.
          Maybe Grammatchikov was awarded? Immediately I did not find his biography, there is no time to "dig". It would be interesting to know if he was nominated for an award for writing in the report?
          Formally, the Uriu detachment was inferior to the forces listed in Reitenstein's telegram, nevertheless, "Askold" scattered them like kittens.
          1. 0
            9 October 2018 10: 51
            His Serene Highness Prince Lieven from "Diana" rose to the rank of Vice Admiral and Chief of the Morgenship Staff.
            The fate of Alexei Konstantinovich is really not clear
      3. 0
        7 October 2018 13: 11
        Quote: Avior
        maybe so. but there were examples of the much more heroic behavior of sailors in the REV, so she had reason.
        Of the 38 participating in the Tsushima battle from the Russian side, ships and vessels sank as a result of the enemy’s combat action, sunk or exploded by their crews - 21 (7 armadillos, 3 armored cruisers, 2 armored cruisers, 1 auxiliary cruiser, 5 destroyers, 3 vehicles) - Wikipedia .
        For example, Admiral Ushakov.
        And Rudnev somehow left for the village after his resignation, although he was formally sent to retirement with an increase.
        I read that this was due to the reluctance to accept it in society, but of course I don’t keep the link at hand, so I will not categorically state.


        You see, the war is lost.
        A sea of ​​grief and prisoners .... Investigative actions of a special commission begin ..
        And here is a very "inconvenient" Rudnev .. Ranks, orders .. retinue .. And in society, the opinion about the war has matured.
        So the village .. is the way out.
        1. 0
          7 October 2018 23: 40
          somewhere I have a reprint book of the then oppositionist cadet Obninsky "The Last Emperor".
          He writes that Varyag was treated heroically until circumstances surfaced.
          1. 0
            8 October 2018 10: 05
            And note, for people who want to shit on their country, such circumstances are always regularly found. Some have a "kgovaya gebnya", others have a "Tsushima department". Some Zhukov is a butcher, others Rudnev is a coward. In this sense, nothing has changed.
            1. 0
              9 October 2018 10: 19
              Quickly, the tsar-father was to TURN Rudnev - to deprive the stomach and shoot the srnaz
              1. 0
                9 October 2018 12: 54
                Sorry, who are you?
  16. 0
    6 October 2018 12: 12
    Clear. Well, wait for the last chapter, then something new may come up.

    Happily and good luck. hi
  17. 0
    10 October 2018 15: 20
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    Sorry, who are you?


    Everyone, dear Ivan, and you too. drinks