The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. Part of 5. Supervisory Commission

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Before proceeding to the description of the misadventures of the Varyag team with the cruiser ship's mechanisms, let us pay a little attention to some features of the construction of a cruiser. The thing is that in two previous articles we looked at the problems of boilers and cruiser cars outside the general context of its construction: thus, highlighting the most controversial elements of its design, we didn’t consider the processes of creating a ship as a whole.

Without a doubt, the Kramp plant was one of the most modern shipbuilding enterprises in the world, but I must say that the contract period of 20 months for the construction of the "Varangian" was even too short for him. Recall that just in 1898 at the Kramp factory, the Kasagi cruiser was completed for the Japanese fleet. Laid down in February 1897, it was delivered to the customer in October 1898, that is, 20,5 months after the laying. At the same time, “Kasagi” was significantly smaller than the “Varyag” (4 tons versus 900 tons), and its power plant included cylindrical (fire tube) boilers, the production of which was long ago and thoroughly mastered.

And if Crump didn’t meet the 20 months, who built faster? Maybe England? Not at all - just in 1897-1898's. The Royal Navy received another series of armored cruisers of the 2 class Eclips. These were ships, obviously more modest characteristics than were supposed for Varyag - displacement within 5 700 t, speed of 18,5 nodes (19,5 ties was achieved only when forcing mechanisms) and armament from 5 * 152-mm and 6 * 120-mm guns . However, all 9 cruisers of this type were built much more than 20 months - for example, the Talbot, known to us, who witnessed the feat of Varyag, was laid on 5 in March 1894, and 15 in September, that is, more than 1896 months since bookmarking. The French have never been distinguished for their high construction speed: the same “D'Antrcasto” being slightly larger than the “Varyag” (up to 30 8 t) was built about five years, and the much smaller freen-type cruiser was 150-4 years. Russian shipbuilding, too, had nothing to boast about - we built Diana cruisers of four years old and more. German shipyards? The same "Askold" was built (counting from the moment it was laid down and before the fleet was handed over) of the 6 of the year and the 3 of the month, while at the same time being delivered, the ship had deficiencies that had to be eliminated later. "Bogatyr" was built 2,5 of the year and 2 months.

We see that the time limit for the construction of the cruiser set by Crump was on the limit (as it turned out, beyond the limits) of the possible. Strictly speaking, under these conditions, Charles Crump's proposal to build a cruiser for the Russian Imperial Navy under the Kasagi project was not alternative, because it was possible to keep within such a short time only when building a serial ship, which was Kasagi for Kramp. Of course, the Navy Ministry rejected this proposal - it wanted to get a completely different ship. As a result, C. Crump took up work that, if successfully completed, would set a record for construction speed, especially since the Americans had to use many new technologies for the Varyag.

But why did MTC insist on such an urgent construction? Obviously, besides the desire to get a powerful warship as soon as possible, there was also a desire to force a foreign supplier to give everything in full, similar to the one that made the Maritime Department put extremely high performance characteristics of the future cruiser into the competitive requirements. And here, according to the author, the root of the Varyag problems turned out to be. Recall the old joke. A sign hangs on the front door to the office, it says: “Our company can serve you: a) quickly; b) high quality; c) cheap. Choose any two options. ” At the same time, the Maritime Department, in fact, tried to force Charles Crump to serve him, choosing three options at once, and this could not lead to anything good.



Fairly accusing Crump of a number of shortcomings and erroneous technical decisions, we should not forget that the Marine Ministry in many ways also pushed him to this, because it was precisely “sturmovshchina” in terms of time, combined with extremely stringent requirements for tactical and technical characteristics, (at the initially low price for a cruiser) Charles Crump was obviously introduced into the temptation of adventurous decisions. Such an approach on the part of the Maritime Office was dangerous, and triple dangerous, if we recall that at the time of the contract neither the agreed draft of the cruiser, nor the detailed specifications in nature existed - all this was to be “settled down” as the contract proceeded. And the vagueness of the wording gave Charles Crump additional opportunities "for maneuver."

The author will risk claiming that if the Maritime Office, instead of “rushing horses,” would postpone the signing of the contract until the agreement with the crucian project by H. Crump, then in the contract, it would indicate a more or less realistic timeframe for its execution ( , 26-28 months), then, in the end, it would have gone to the Varyag for the benefit and the Russian Imperial fleet would have been replenished with a first-class and absolutely combat-ready cruiser.

Here, of course, it can be argued that Charles Crump was himself to blame for setting such dates - after all, it was he who originally initiated the "super-fast" construction of the cruiser, which (among other arguments) allowed the American to avoid participation in the competition. This is true - but the fact is that Charles Crump initially proposed to build Varyag under the Kasagi project, and he could easily cope with it in 20 months, and then the Navy insisted on a ship of a completely new project. However, the fact that Charles Crump nevertheless agreed without adjusting the timing in the direction of increasing, shows the adventurous nature of his nature.

Let us recall how the construction of the cruiser Varyag was organized. To this end, an observing commission was sent to the USA, which was to:

1. Compilation of final specifications, where it was necessary to “introduce everything that is recognized as necessary for the battleship and the cruiser in all their official positions”;

2. “To resolve all issues related to the construction, procurement and arming of ordered ships definitively,” but, naturally, within the limits approved by the manager of the Marine Ministry of programs for designing the MTC. Here, in fact, there was a serious limitation in the work of the commission - a lot of issues that required a speedy resolution, it could not take on its own, without the sanction of the ITC. As we will see later, this (theoretically correct) requirement still had negative consequences.

In addition, the supervising commission could not decide with its authority on over-contract payments and was obliged to send activity reports to ITC every two weeks. The composition of the commission:

1. Captain of the 1 rank M.A. Danilevsky - Chairman of the Commission, participant in the war for the liberation of the Balkan peoples from the Turkish yoke in 1877 — 1878, served as a senior officer on the battleship Chesma, and for the last three years he commanded the gunboat Zaporozhets;

2. Junior shipbuilder P.E. Chernigovsky - watching ship engineer. Before the appointment, he built the gunboats “Gilyak”, “Donets” and “Manjour”;

3. Senior Mechanical Engineer A.I. Frontskevich - mechanic;

4. Lieutenant P.P. Macedonian. - the miner.

Captains V.I. were in charge of the artillery. Petrov and V.A. Alekseev (on electrical engineering of tower installations) - both graduates of the Mikhailovsky Artillery Academy. Later, the commission was supplemented by artillery lieutenant colonel M. I. Barkhotkin and mechanical engineer M. K. Borovsky. In addition, the two commissioners were included in the commission. These were the first assistants of civil engineers, usually recruited from competent workers. The "pointers" were able to independently read the drawings and directly monitored the progress of the work. Interestingly, the purpose of their arrival was not only control functions, but also a desire to learn from foreign experience - they were obliged to study the work of American shipyards and, later, upon returning to Russia, train others and establish similar ones.

The supervisory commission arrived at the 13 plant on June 1898 g and ... Charles Crump immediately brought down a host of complaints and "practical offers". The American industrialist stated that it was impossible to build a cruiser with the required parameters, and that it was necessary:

1. Reduce coal reserves;

2. Remove two 152-mm guns;

3. Reduce the number of the team, while reducing the machine command to the number that allows you to go only by an economic move (!);

4. Allow the ship to supply additional steam to the cylinders of medium and low pressure during tests.

In other words, the tactics of C. Crump is absolutely clear - having received a contract for promises to build a super-cruiser, super-fast and cheap, he immediately “forgot” about his promises and began (quite, by the way, justified!) To prove that such a cruiser cannot be built. M.A. Danilevsky quite reasonably met him - by refusing all requirements, he agreed to increase the displacement from 6 000 t to 6 400 - 6 500 t, but before the forcing of the boilers during the tests, a compromise was reached - the cruiser had to be tested without forcing the machines, but it was allowed to open hatches of the stoker departments and pump air there, but with an excess of pressure not more than 25 mm Hg.

Thus, despite the differences, it can be said that the beginning of the work of the monitoring commission with Charles Crump was quite fruitful. Alas, in the future everything went awry.

The blame for this was mutual. Often, Charles Crump for unclear reasons delayed the materials requested from him - this was the case, for example, with torpedo tubes. The fact is that under the terms of the contract they were to be produced in Russia, but this required drawings of the side and decks in the locations, but the Americans did not want to provide them. M.A. Danilevsky was forced to "shake out" these drawings from Charles C. Crump's specialists for a whole month. But the reverse is also true - often there were questions that the observing commission did not have the right to decide on its own, but had to coordinate with the ITC. The MTC often and unreasonably delayed its decision. It is clear that Charles Crump, being put in a tight timeframe contract, could not wait for MTK’s response for months and continued to build, and the monitoring commission couldn’t stop it (and cause its own power, thereby causing additional costs associated with such a delay). . And how was MA Danilevsky guess what decision will the ITC ultimately take?

Canonical became story on booking reservation for "Varyag". When it came time to place an order for the supply of armor (and the delay in this matter could not be allowed, as it would have delayed the construction), it turned out that C. Crump did not intend to order its production from extra soft nickel steel, because, although she was the best option for armored cruiser, but has not yet been used on US ships. Accordingly, a loophole in the contract (in the Russian text it was said that the armor should correspond to the best world models, and considered the main English - that the best models used by the US Navy) allowed Crump to avoid using better, but more expensive armor.

Naturally, MA Danilevsky couldn’t allow such a thing, but he couldn’t agree with Charles H. Kramp on additional payment for extra light nickel steel armor, too - it was out of his authority. Therefore, he needed to get approval from "above" and this, of course, took time. Accordingly, the deadlines are starting to tighten even more, and then a new question arises - Charles Crump proposes to rivet the ship’s armored deck from two layers of slabs.


Control armor plate, passed the test of shooting


Such a decision significantly weakens the protection of the ship, since two plates, even if riveted, are inferior in armor resistance of one plate of the same thickness. But Charles Crump appeals to the fact that the double-layer fastening of the armor and its rigid ligation with the body kit will allow it to participate in ensuring the overall strength of the body, which cannot be achieved by using single-layer armor. A serious question and MA Danilevsky requests MTC. But MTK (and they, apart from Varyag, also build 70 ships, both in Russia and abroad), they seem to make an absolutely logical decision to wait for the drawings of the cruiser from Charles Crump to make a competent conclusion. And no one plans to submit drawings in time and is not going to, but the decision on armor must be made immediately!

Result - M.A. Danilevsky, not having a direct ban on ITC, ultimately accepts the proposal of Charles Crump. Well, later, MTC, having understood the arguments of Charles Crump, makes an unconditional conclusion that the only real reason why this shipbuilder insisted on double-layer armor was “Crump’s desire to simplify and cheapen the work on the production of an armor deck, bearing in mind punching holes where they need to be drilled. ” Now, the MTC prohibits making the armor deck of two layers and ... still has to approve the decision of C. Krump, since he has already placed all the necessary orders.

Without a doubt, C. Crump has demonstrated in this matter the turnover on the verge of cheating. However, he got away with it only because of the slow organization of control over his activities, and here the fault lies with the Navy Department. We see that the MTC did not want to make decisions before receiving the corresponding cruiser drawings, but they were not submitted on time - and why? It is possible, of course, that Charles Crump was well aware of the consequences of their transfer and that the MTC, seeing that the entire American argument is the essence of the excuse, does not authorize a double-layer armor deck, which will lead Charles Crump to incur additional costs. But it was only part of the problem.

The second part was that Vice-Admiral VP intervened again. Verkhovsky (the one who pushed through the installation of the Nikloss boilers bypassing the MTC and who signed the contract with Charles Crump). This time V.P. Verkhovsky ... instructed the Russian naval attache in the USA, D.F. Deadvaguo to negotiate and work with Charles Crump on the supply of armor from the harmonization of technical characteristics to the conclusion of contracts with Carnegie factories. All anything, but df Mertvago was supposed to do this bypassing the observation committee and MA Danilevsky!

We will not speculate about the reasons that prompted the vice-admiral to such a decision - there could be anything, including good intentions, a bribe, or protection of the honor of his uniform, so there’s no need to guess. But it was difficult to think of a way in which it was possible to undermine the authority of M.A. Danilevsky in the eyes of Charles Crump. Of course, this could not but affect the attitude of the latter to the requirements of the monitoring commission. Often, its members could not get answers to the simplest questions for long weeks (“up to a month of tireless reminders”).

Bottom line - C. Crump ceased to reckon with the monitoring commission so much that he ordered the Nicloss boilers without her knowledge, not to mention presenting the technical conditions to its members, which he had to do before ordering the boilers. The same story happened with the insurance company - the work was in full swing, but there were no insurance policies. Such serious breaches of the contract gave rise to MA Danilevsky refused to refuse C. Crump in the first tranche of payments for the ship - and then an open war had already begun, a representative of C. Crump went to Russia to complain about the intolerable conditions that MA Danilevsky created for him. For example, the American categorically did not like the refusal of MA Danilevsky extend the contract period for the construction of a cruiser, if the armor supplied to him by another American plant turns out to be a rejection. On the one hand, it seems to be true - how could Charles Crump be responsible for the marriage of another producer not subordinate to him? But if you look, it turns out that MA Danilevsky did not like the contract of C. Crump with the supplier of armor, under the condition of which it was possible to delay the supply, which, of course, was wrong. Apparently, without being able to put pressure on C. Krump in another way, MA Danilevsky refused to increase the term of construction, in case the armor would be of poor quality.

According to the results, MA Danilevsky was recalled from America, and E.N. arrived in his place in December 1898. Shhensnovich (later - commander of the squadron battleship Retvizan). And again, on the one hand, it is easy to blame Charles Crump for everything, and to count the chairman of the monitoring commission as “innocently injured”. But it will be wrong, because with all the positive qualities of MA. Danilevsky, he, apparently, was unable to organize the normal work of the commission. And the point here was not in Charles Crampe, but in the fact that he simply did not trust his subordinates and tried to control their every step, not allowing them to work and make decisions on their own. As a result, the head of the Navy Department, Admiral Tyrtov was forced to note:

“It should be regretted that with all the good qualities and knowledge, Captain Danilevsky has such a difficult and, I will say, suspicious character, the manifestation of which forced me to replace him with another chairman. But it is clear that Kramp should not look into his eyes, but rather be as careful and as exacting as possible with him, which, in my name, dictate to the captain of the first rank Shensnovich ”.


After the change of the chairman of the monitoring commission, the situation as a whole stabilized: E.N. Schensnovich was very demanding, no less than MA Danilevsky, but still could somehow find a common language with Charles Crump. The “dual power” was terminated - the Navy department confirmed the powers of the supervising commission, and banned D.F. Dead or interfere with or replace her work. But new difficulties arose - E.N. Schensnovich quickly found out that the members of the commission at his disposal were completely inadequate for the implementation of full-fledged supervision of construction. This was especially true of the mechanical part.

At the Kramp plant, four steam engines were simultaneously assembled (two for the Varyag and two for the Retvizan squadron battleship), while, of course, all this happened in different places at the same time (the parts were processed in different workshops). Parallel to this, drawings were made (which had to be checked), tests were conducted on which it was necessary to attend ... And only one person had to look at all this — AI Frontskevich, who, moreover, was to travel to the factories of contractors of Charles Crump, and supervise the work on the boilers of ships. Not only that - the observing commission kept a very lively workflow, the number of incoming and outgoing documents reached 200 per month, and this does not take into account the need to translate from English to Russian specifications for the hull and mechanisms of both ships before sending them to St. Petersburg. So nobody could remove the “writings” from the only mechanic. It got to the point that the supply of the Nikloss boilers had to be dealt with by the artilleryman VA Alekseev! Of course, E.N. Schensnovich asked to send people to him, but alas, they did not hurry in Petersburg, and the measures taken by the chairman of the monitoring commission, who managed to involve outsiders in its work (for example, qualified émigré worker P. Keleinikov, a former master of the monket workshop of the Obukhovsky plant, who worked for Crump's factory) could not drastically improve the situation. Subsequently, an assistant senior engineer-mechanic M.K. Borovsky, but this did not close the question completely.

Despite the extremely difficult working conditions, the commission nevertheless brought many benefits: for example, the mechanic A.I. Frontskevich revealed that the high-pressure cylinder had been defective and was able to achieve its replacement, while the experts of C. Krump claimed that the cylinder was quite benign. M.K. Immediately upon arrival, Borovsky went to look at the manufacture of Nikloss boilers - when he arrived at the factory he rejected 600 tubes made in violation of technical conditions and which did not correspond to the drawings or reference samples provided by Nikloss - fortunately prudent M.K. Borovsky was able to get them in France and bring them with him. The Americans tried to prove that they did everything correctly, and only after the demonstration of the standard they were forced to admit that they were wrong - it was only then that it turned out that they also had reference samples ...

The only miner of the supervising commission was overwhelmed with cases “to the very crown” - the fact is that the Varyag was electrified to a much greater degree than the ships that Charles Crump had built before, and with the orders of electrical mechanisms many difficulties arose, sometimes unclear . So, for example, since Charles Crump was able to articulate the use of fans when testing a cruiser (to force air into the stoker), he managed to distribute the electricity so that the rotation of these fans was allocated power in 416 horsepower. It could not have any practical significance, because in combat conditions the manhole covers would be closed, and the necessary pressure could be provided with less power — this “maneuver” was undertaken solely in order to achieve contract speed.

A complete mismatch of the company's ideas about the required overall strength of the case was revealed: the stresses in it instead of the kgS / cm790 allowed by the Russian 2 rules exceeded 1100 kgf / cm2. C. Krump managed to include in the calculations of the strength of the hull even the wooden flooring of the upper deck ...

But at the same time one should not think that the observing commission had to “fight” exclusively with Charles Crump. It should be understood that during the construction of the Varyag, the well-established mechanism of American shipbuilding collided with the domestic one ... let's say, slowness. E.N. Schensnovich noted that low prices for American industrialists are obtained if they make a large order: we are talking about large quantities of the same type of products, which made it possible to extract the benefits provided by high-volume production. But such orders were not completely combined with MTK's favorite “entertainment” to make permanent changes to the ship's design. In addition, if the observing commission often could not get an answer from C. Crump, and this complicated the process of coordination with the ITC, the opposite was true: very often, Charles Crump had to wait weeks for ITC to answer the reasonable and important questions. On another issue, the consideration was so demanding that the supervising commission, in order not to cause delays in construction, was forced to give an answer itself, and then it turned out that MTC decided differently. Some (and perfectly sensible) proposals of the observing commission (for example, the provision of armor shields for standing guns) of the MTC were rejected. Sometimes MTK made non-optimal decisions - for example, when it turned out that the gases of the 152-mm guns located in the forecastle would affect the calculation of the six-inch nasal pair, there was a proposal to protect them with special screens on the false-board (although this limited the firing angles), but MTK demanded to move them closer to the centerline of the ship, that is, move closer to each other. The observing commission quite reasonably objected to this that such a decision would complicate the work of the calculations and further restrict the angles of the shelling of the guns than the bulwark, but only managed to convince the MTC that for such a design change Charles Crump canceled the orders made earlier.

Without a doubt, Charles Crump repeatedly proposed solutions that worsen the quality of the cruiser, but simplify the fulfillment of contractual obligations for the American industrialist. Admiral Tyrtov, manager of the maritime ministry, wrote:

“According to Krump, everything is exaggerated here, and I fear that now, having signed a contract, he will demand a reduction in the weight of one thing, then the other, pleading that he cannot meet the requirements”


He was echoed by the naval attache D.F. Mertvago, to whom, by the will of V.P. Verkhovsky had to take part in negotiations with Charles Crump (“The Commission will have to work with subtle cunning”). But this does not mean that any proposal by the Americans is devoid of meaning, and it must be perceived as hostile. So, for example, it is known that Charles Crump offered to install and build Retvizan tower installations in the United States, arguing that American tower installations are better than Russians, since they were tested in battle in the most crushing victories known in the annals of modern naval battles. . To this, the Marine Department manager replied: “The Spaniards did not have projectiles, and the coastal batteries were equipped with guns of the past century. Against such an enemy it is not surprising to be the winner. ”

All this, of course, is correct, and this episode is usually viewed as another attempt by Charles Crump to earn extra money on an additional order, which is harmful to the Russian Imperial Navy. But here's what MA wrote about this. Danilevsky, who can be suspected of anything, but not in the commitment to an American businessman:

"The Yankees have on hand extensive electrical firms and a wide distribution of electrical engineering, far ahead in this respect not only what we have here in Russia, but throughout Western Europe, which serves to guarantee the dignity of those installations that Crump could make. "


In general, all of the above indicates that Charles Crump, no doubt, was primarily focused not on creating the most effective warship, but on formally fulfilling the contract. At the same time, alas, the Maritime Office, despite the measures taken, also failed to create a truly effective system of interaction with the American industrialist and control of its activities.



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  1. Cat
    +5
    6 July 2018 05: 27
    Gorgeous, read in one breath !!!
  2. +5
    6 July 2018 08: 26
    Nice to read wink
    Indeed, Kramp was offered to build on Diana’s project with the changes made during the course of work, and to build unrealistically fast (penalty for violation of deadlines), improved in relation to Diana, and also cheaper (Aurora, for example, cost 6,5 million, and Varangian-6).
    In light of this, the contract with Kramp for the construction of the Varangian does not look so attractive for Kramp, as it could have been imagined from the first article of the Andrey cycle, rather the opposite. love In addition, it must be borne in mind that in the 19th century, communication with America was not as fast as with Europe at the same time and was very different from modern ideas, so the problem was laid down initially, later Kramp wrote in a letter that it is impossible to build a ship at the same time in America and in Russia, complaining of red tape and inconsistency of actions of the Russian side.
    The question is, why was such a rush needed?
    On the one hand, the construction program was urgent to counteract the Japanese program, but the Germans, for example, were not given such strict deadlines, and according to the Bogatyr series, all the more so.
    There is no doubt that if the deadlines were shifted to the right, the quality of work and the project itself would be better, and this could not be understood in St. Petersburg. Nevertheless, the deadlines were set incredibly ultra-short - should there be a reasonable explanation for this?
    The situation will become clear if you know that the Varangian was built more like an experimental ship, on which they wanted to test new technologies and solutions before the start of mass construction under the program.
    At that time, in Russia they did not know whether someone would undertake to build abroad and what they would offer, so they tried to gain experience as quickly as possible for subsequent decisions. This is a logical explanation of why, in some cases, the monitoring commission allowed itself to make independent decisions without waiting for the red tape in St. Petersburg to end, and you should not look here for the self-interest of commission members — they perfectly understood the importance of rapid construction. When the ship was entrusted to Baer at the end of the tests, he was especially emphasized that the ship should be regarded as experimental, and any features of its operation and repair must be documented and described in detail.
    Later the Germans appeared with their Askold and the Bogatyr, the severity of the problem was removed, and the series of Bogatyrs was already being built in Russia and not in such a hurry, however, it was Varyag who was the first.
    “Varyag” was so far the only cruiser built under the new shipbuilding program, and interest in it was exceptional. The first commander of the Kronstadt port, Vice Admiral S.O. Makarov, congratulated the cruiser’s crew on the safe arrival, and Grand Duke Konstantin Konstantinovich arrived with the cadets of the artillery school. The next day, P. P. Tyrtov, Governor of the Maritime Ministry, and Vice Admiral F.K. soon they also accompanied Admiral-General Grand Duke Alexei Alexandrovich to Varyag. Of course, the cruiser was also examined by V.P. Verkhovsky, who had just returned from abroad. And then more business visits followed. Chief Inspector of Naval Artillery, Major General A.S. Krotkov, Chairman of the Naval Artillery Experiments Commission Rear Admiral D.G. Felkersam and other members of the ITC meticulously examined the cruiser artillery, ammunition supply and cellar system. On May 18, the “Varangian” was awarded the visit of Nicholas II, who performed the “highest review” of the “Varangian”, as well as the “Admiral General” and “Dzhigit”, who arrived from training voyages.

    The cruiser was also visited by not so high-ranking guests .... Everyone was delighted with the wonderful handsome cruiser. There was no end to the metropolitan audience .......

    That's how the cruiser was perceived by the official and unofficial persons in Russia.

    ... I look forward to Andrei connecting these overseas capitalists Kramp and Nikloss with a real battle in Chemulpo. However, it seems that before this is still not far lol
  3. +4
    6 July 2018 09: 58
    E.N. Schensnovich noted that low prices are paid by American industrialists if they are given a large order: we are talking about large batches of the same type of product, which made it possible to derive the benefits provided by large-scale production
    so this is understandable. Serial production is always more profitable than a single product. Under a series, and even more so a large series, it is more profitable to develop technological equipment that reduces the cost of production.
  4. +5
    6 July 2018 10: 20
    Very interesting... good
    however, we won’t get to the battle soon No.
    1. +7
      6 July 2018 10: 41
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      however, we won’t get to the battle soon

      This is true :))) Presumably, articles through 2 or even 3 - one on the epic of moving to Kronstadt and the PA, one on what the cruiser did before leaving for Chemulpo, one on political circumstances and analysis of Rudnev’s behavior until the battle :)))
      1. +1
        6 July 2018 23: 23
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        one on political circumstances and analysis of Rudnev’s behavior right up to the battle

        By the way a very interesting point. There are a bunch of crazy versions on this subject, they say who only Rudnev did not give orders, directions and advice.
        1. 0
          7 July 2018 11: 41
          And who?

          Rudnev had direct superiors, why did he need someone's “advice”?
          And Rudnev was the "Alekseev man" - which characterizes
          1. 0
            9 July 2018 22: 08
            And who is his direct boss in Chemulpo?
            1. 0
              10 July 2018 08: 28
              Messenger Pavlov.
              1. 0
                10 July 2018 22: 47
                I’m hinting at this :)
                The chiefs are a diplomat, but no one also took him out of submission to the fleet.
      2. 0
        7 July 2018 00: 17
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        however, we won’t get to the battle soon

        This is true :))) Presumably, articles through 2 or even 3 - one on the epic of moving to Kronstadt and the PA, one on what the cruiser did before leaving for Chemulpo, one on political circumstances and analysis of Rudnev’s behavior until the battle :)))

        I'm really looking forward to it!
  5. +1
    6 July 2018 10: 44
    A summary of the book by RMM and other authors continues.
    And why is the "Varyag" cheap then? It is decently more expensive than the “Germans" and almost equal in cost to a ton of Diana / Pallas.
    And he was not, no super cruiser, - “Bogatyr” was cooler than him, not to mention some others.
    1. +2
      7 July 2018 02: 39
      Quote: Jura 27
      And why is the "Varyag" cheap then?

      So it was conceived :-)
      Quote: Jura 27
      Decently more expensive than the "Germans"

      a) Take "Cruiser" Askold "" Peasant and "Cruiser" Varyag "" Melnikov, add the weight of the Corps, MKU and Reservation.
      b) We divide the obtained values ​​by the sum of the paid basic and additional payments.
      For convenience, everything is tabulated, according to "Varyag" it was too lazy to add, so items such as coal, crew, weapons, ammunition, etc., were simply subtracted from the total 6 500 tons.
      1. 0
        7 July 2018 06: 30

        Who conceived?
        You succeeded in folding by Askold, but subtracting by Varyag didn’t.
        So, from 6500 tons, it is necessary to subtract the supply of 1240,5 tons and armaments of 467,9 tons, and in a good way, the weight of the ballast is 200 tons. Total remains - 4592 tons, bought for 4,58 million rubles., I.e. the cost of a ton of "Varyag" 997 rubles / t., against Askold 912 rubles / t.
        1. +1
          7 July 2018 13: 45
          Crump and conceived, for the sake of receiving an order, he went to dumping. Your calculations are not impressive, but disappointing. Frankly, I thought that you, objecting, count more than a thousand rubles per ton of "Varyag".
          1. 0
            7 July 2018 14: 40
            Nifigase dumping! More expensive than other overseas orders, even a tower cruiser.
            Exclusively for you, I can easily calculate a thousand rubles per ton: it is known that the weight of KMU Varyaga included 180 tons of water, hence 4592 tons minus 180 tons, we get 4412 tons bought for 4,58 million rubles, or 1038 rubles for ton.
            For reference: on the Askold, the weight of the CMU included 123 tons of water, and therefore its cost per ton is 939 rubles. Thus, a ton of German is almost 100 rubles. cheaper than the Varyagovo-Krampovo. Strange some dumping at the mattress.
            1. +2
              9 July 2018 00: 50
              Quote: Jura 27
              it is known that the weight of the CMU "Varyag" included 180 tons of water

              In that case, dear colleague,
              Quote: Jura 27
              exclusively for you, for reference

              a) On the "Varyag" "team and officers with luggage" - 77 tons. Krestyaninov has an appropriate indicator where, in the “Corps” or “Reserves”?
              b) On the "Varyag" "Spare parts and materials for mechanisms, artillery and mine-torpedo armament" - 265,7 tons. Where does Krestyaninov have the same spare parts and materials, in the same case, in the “Case” or “Stocks”?
              Assume the points а и б at Krestyaninov's "Reserves". Subtract from 420 tons of 342,7 tons, we get 77,3 tons. But Askold had a "supply of washing water", which was not on the "Varyag", and this is 83 tons, in addition, a "supply of fresh water", this is 53 tons.
              And here the article of the load "Reserves" by Krestyaninov went into minus, specifically - minus 58,7 tons Or is Krestyaninov’s water buried in the “Corps” buried? And this is just what lies on the surface.
              Melnikov gave detailed information, but Krestyaninov obviously incomplete, and you pretend that you don’t notice it and joyfully jump on one leg.
              1. 0
                9 July 2018 05: 01
                a) In stocks.
                b) Spare parts for mechanisms - in the weight of the CMU, artillery parts in the weight of artillery.
                The stock of water for washing on the "Varyag" was included in the article "supply".
                Based on the foregoing, the Askold article does not go to any minus.
  6. +3
    6 July 2018 12: 27
    "In general, all of the above indicates that Charles Crump, without a doubt, was primarily focused not on creating the most efficient warship, but on the formal fulfillment of the contract."
    That is, Kramp tried as much as possible to fulfill the contract. So what's the problem. We will make a normal contract and get the most efficient ship.
    1. +3
      6 July 2018 16: 02
      Quote: Curious
      That is, Kramp tried as much as possible to fulfill the contract. So what's the problem. We will make a normal contract and get the most efficient ship.

      In general - yes, that's why I write
      The author will risk claiming that if the Maritime Office, instead of “rushing horses,” would postpone the signing of the contract until the agreement with the crucian project by H. Crump, then in the contract, it would indicate a more or less realistic timeframe for its execution ( , 26-28 months), then, in the end, it would have gone to the Varyag for the benefit and the Russian Imperial fleet would have been replenished with a first-class and absolutely combat-ready cruiser.
  7. +2
    6 July 2018 12: 52
    C. Crump managed to include even the wooden deck of the upper deck in the calculations of the strength of the hull ...


    " On decks that must withstand severe deformations, the joining of wooden and steel decks is a very effective measure, wood and steel act together to resist loads. The boards are attached to the steel deck using galvanized iron round head bolts "Warships: a textbook on construction, defense, stability. England. 1904.

    There is nothing strange in this, at that time it was considered quite normal.

    the one that sold the installation of Nikloss boilers bypassing the MTK


    Everything is very foggy with boilers, the MTK prefers Belleville boilers, but in 1895 in France and 1898 in England, checks began on all types of boilers used in the Navy. In England, Belleville boilers are forbidden for installation on warships, one of the recommended types was the Nikloss boilers, in France they expressed themselves more gently;

    " If you decide to install Belleville boilers on your ship, then you will have to add a mechanic to each of them". Water-tube boilers in the French Navy. 1895

    The tests were carried out constantly, in England they spent 160 thousand pounds. It is difficult to believe that the MTK did not know about this, but still preferred Belleville boilers.
    1. +2
      6 July 2018 16: 01
      Quote: 27091965i
      There is nothing strange in this, at that time it was considered quite normal.

      Good afternoon! hi Please tell me, did the British take the tree into account when calculating the longitudinal / lateral strength of the hull? :)
      Quote: 27091965i
      but in the 1895 year in France and the 1898 year in England, checks began on all types of boilers used in the Navy. In England, Belleville boilers prohibit installation on warships

      And they put them both on the "Swiftshure" and "Triemph" 1898 g bookmarks, and on a series of six battleships of the type "Duncan" laid during the 1899-1900 g. How so?
      Quote: 27091965i
      It is difficult to believe that the MTK did not know about this, but still preferred Belleville boilers.

      It's not about putting Belleville to the Varangian, but that there were still a bunch of all kinds of boilers (Norman-Sigody, Schulz-Tornicroft, Lagrafel d Allest and so on) against which the MTK had nothing.
      1. +3
        6 July 2018 16: 23
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And they put them both on the "Swiftshure" and "Triemph" 1898 g bookmarks, and on a series of six battleships of the type "Duncan" laid during the 1899-1900 g. How so?

        And they were going to put on King Edward VII and its sisterships (1902 year), but already in the process of developing the project they decided to file a big experiment, as a result of which Belleville boilers were finally abandoned.
      2. +3
        6 July 2018 17: 18
        Good afternoon. hi

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And they put them both on the "Swiftshure" and "Triemph" 1898 g bookmarks, and on a series of six battleships of the type "Duncan" laid during the 1899-1900 g. How so?


        Very simple, one of the points of the order reads:

        " On ships under construction where the replacement of Belleville boilers with a different type will be associated with a delay in putting them into operation, leave these boilers.
        On ships where installation work has not yet begun and there is the possibility of replacement, replace Belleville boilers.
        "

        Tell me please, did the British take the tree into account when calculating the longitudinal / lateral strength of the hull?


        It is on the decks that ready-made schemes of the device, fasteners and the material used are given. Examples of calculations are given in terms of speed, stability, the impact of the projectile on certain types of armor, and the literature necessary for calculations is indicated for other topics.
        For example, the calculation for the Holtzer shell in relation to the wrought iron.


        It's not about putting Belleville to the Varangian, but that there were still a bunch of all kinds of boilers (Norman-Sigody, Schulz-Tornicroft, Lagrafel d Allest and so on) against which the MTK had nothing.


        When ordering ships under the program of 1898, it was proposed to use different types of boilers for new ships, to select the most satisfying fleet requirements.
        But look at what kind of boilers were installed on the ships being built in Russia, and where the “good thought” disappeared, it would get rid of Belleville's monopoly, against the background of checking their performance in England.

        1. +2
          6 July 2018 18: 19
          Quote: 27091965i
          Very simple, one of the points of the order reads:
          "On ships under construction where the replacement of Belleville boilers with a different type will be associated with a delay in putting them into operation, leave these boilers.

          No, not easy. The British installed Belleville boilers on armadillos laid in 1898, 1899 and in 1900 inclusive. That is, under "ships under construction" they did not fall by definition in 1898.
          Quote: 27091965i
          It is on the decks that ready-made schemes of the device, fasteners and the material used are given. Examples of calculations are given for speed, stability, the impact of the projectile on certain types of armor

          In other words, do you have any information that the British used a wooden deck in calculating the strength of the hull, or am I mistaken?
          Quote: 27091965i
          But look at what kind of boilers were installed on the ships being built in Russia, and where the “good thought” disappeared, it would get rid of Belleville's monopoly, against the background of checking their performance in England.

          Dear colleague, I do not know why you are talking about England. In 1898, Russia had its own idea of ​​the operation of Belleville boilers, tested in practice, and what do we have British experience about?
          1. +3
            6 July 2018 19: 16
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            No, not easy. The British installed Belleville boilers on armadillos laid in 1898, 1899 and in 1900 inclusive. That is, under "ships under construction" they did not fall by definition in 1898.


            An official ban came in 1900.

            In other words, do you have any information that the British used a wooden deck in calculating the strength of the hull, or am I mistaken?


            Andrei, when I don’t write without reading a book or another publication, I don’t really trust sites on the Internet or try to find and verify information. If you wish, I will prepare this book and boiler reports in an acceptable format and send them to you. And you can draw your own conclusions.

            Dear colleague, I do not know why you are talking about England. In 1898, Russia had its own idea of ​​the operation of Belleville boilers, tested in practice, and what do we have British experience about?


            Honestly, I was always interested in the "French lobby" in the MTK, or was it all speculation. A report on Belleville boilers was published in England in 1900, it shows the results of the research, as well as a partial correspondence of members of the commission, the Admiralty and Belleville. I think this report was read at the MTK and at the same time they continued to work with these boilers. Although in many ways they tried to copy or make England more engrossed in shipbuilding. How do you think which of this can be concluded.

            Foreign publications are different from ours, this is also related to the battle of the Varyag, in the USA, for example, they conducted an entire investigation and hearings in the Senate on the actions of the commander of the gunboat Vicksburg, and the reports show a slightly different picture from that published in Russia about relations in raid and actions of ship commanders of other states. This is a very interesting topic. Sincerely. hi
            1. +3
              6 July 2018 19: 48
              Quote: 27091965i
              An official ban came in 1900.

              That is, 2 years later than the events described, is not it? And this is a completely different matter.
              Quote: 27091965i
              Andrei, when I don’t write without reading a book or another publication

              So I do not blame you for anything like that.
              The question is different - I absolutely trust you in the matter that the wooden deck to some extent strengthened the steel. Generally speaking, this looks quite logical even at the level of school physics. But the question is different - as far as I know, even some metal structures were not involved in calculating the strength of the cases. In other words, I do not dispute the fact that wooden flooring strengthens the deck, but I am interested in whether such a strengthening was accepted in the calculations of the hulls of English ships - the fact is that the second does not automatically follow from the first.
              Quote: 27091965i
              I think this report was read at the MTK and at the same time they continued to work with these boilers. Although in many ways they tried to copy or make England more engrossed in shipbuilding. How do you think which of this can be concluded.

              I just don’t understand why we had to follow the English reports in this matter. At that time (1900), we had experience operating Belleville, perhaps more than the English. At the same time, ships with other types of boilers were being built, which we were about to be able to test in action and form our own opinion about them. A number of conclusions of the report are generally controversial - Nikloss boilers are an example of this.
              In general, it’s hard for me to see the French lobby in this decision. Which, however, does not mean that the lobby was not there. laughing hi
              Quote: 27091965i
              Foreign publications are different from ours, this is also related to the battle of the Varyag, in the USA, for example, they conducted an entire investigation and hearings in the Senate on the actions of the commander of the gunboat Vicksburg, and the reports show a slightly different picture from that published in Russia about relations in raid and actions of ship commanders of other states.

              It’s a pity that I don’t have these data, although it should be said that Vicksburg did not show his best, as noted by foreigners
              Quote: 27091965i
              This is a very interesting topic.

              Without any doubt! hi
              1. +1
                10 July 2018 14: 17
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                A number of conclusions of the report are generally controversial - Nikloss boilers are an example of this.


                Nikloss boilers looked very promising in the project. As for the operation - everything is new, it is a gray horse, you will not try, you will not know.
                Knowledge of the thermodynamics of that time was very limited - it is now possible to make a very accurate thermal calculation for each point in the structure and it will be approximately close to reality - approximately!
                Even on the first crossing across the ocean of Philadelphia-Cherbourg, a commission from the UK arrived to Varyag to familiarize themselves with the boilers:
                The arrival of the "Varyag" did not go unnoticed. The newest ship of a friendly nation, it was for the French also a carrier of the original boilers of the Nikloss system, the merits of which, as the newspaper Monitor de la Fleet emphasized, were confirmed by their impeccable work during the passage across the ocean. And soon the British came to the cruiser. A special “boiler room” commission of the British Parliament, headed by Sir Domville, together with Nikloss, who arrived from Paris, examined the Varyag boilers for two days.


                This episode suggests that the "mistress of the seas" was interested in the trial operation of the new Nikloss boilers.

                And now there are a lot of technical innovations, on paper, they are ideal for a trial run, but for long-term use, this poses a problem (take the same double-disc DSG boxes from VW - the first series changed both the mechatronics unit and the unit itself with clutch discs).

                Nevertheless, only a resource run or long-term operation reveals disadvantages.

                Although competent engineers of that time correctly predicted that the connection of steam-water pipes with a collector - metal / metal under conditions of temperature deformation and interpenetration (burning) of the compounds, would not lead to a good result.
  8. +5
    6 July 2018 13: 03
    Quote: Curious
    "In general, all of the above indicates that Charles Crump, without a doubt, was primarily focused not on creating the most efficient warship, but on the formal fulfillment of the contract."
    That is, Kramp tried as much as possible to fulfill the contract. So what's the problem. We will make a normal contract and get the most efficient ship.

    And for this you need to turn on the time machine in order to draw up a contract taking into account all that has happened
    1. +5
      6 July 2018 13: 30
      We consider the activities of specific people in a specific period of time. These specific people could not draw up a contract, which would have an effective ship as a result of its implementation.
    2. +1
      13 July 2018 15: 48
      You can do without Wales and Spielberg, you just need not to spoil the fever and competently approach the preparation of such documents as a contract for a construction cruiser. And so they only confirmed the correctness of the old rumors about the rush. This is about laughter and fleas.
  9. +3
    6 July 2018 22: 00
    Four steam engines were assembled at the Kramp plant at the same time (two for the Varyag and two for the Retvisan battleship squadron), while, of course, all this happened in different places at the same time (parts were processed in various workshops). Parallel to this, drawings were made (which needed to be checked), tests were carried out, on which it was necessary to attend ... And for all this only one person had to look - A.I. Frontskevich, who, in addition, had to go to the factories of counterparts C. Kramp, and control the work on the boilers of the ships.

    Heh heh heh .... in "Gangut" published selected places from the diaries of Frantskevich - on the work of his representative in Britain, on the construction in the USA of "Retvizan" and on the service on it.
    So in Britain it was even cooler - Frantskevich watched the manufacture of mechanisms, pins and other products simultaneously for four battleships. As a result, he directly wrote to his superiors in the report that his service had turned into profanity: instead of observing the construction of mechanisms and manufacturing parts in factories, he had to actually accept finished products without seeing the whole process. The reason is simple: orders are scattered in factories around the Island, and he, being the only representative, cannot physically be everywhere at once. In addition, constant travel eats up a lot of time and money - even traveling with the lowest class and renting the cheapest housing, there is only enough public money for travel and accommodation, and Frantskevich is pretty worn out at constant travel. smile
    1. +3
      7 July 2018 05: 47
      Quote: Alexey RA
      in Britain it was even cooler - Frantskevich watched the manufacture of mechanisms, pins and other products simultaneously for four battleships.

      How does this Russian officer accept finished goods for the British battleships under construction, and even reports to this superiors?
      Quote: Alexey RA
      constant travel eats up a ton of time and money - even traveling with the lowest class and renting the cheapest housing, there is only enough public money for travel and accommodation, and Frantskevich is pretty worn out in constant travel

      But in “Gangut” it is not said, by chance, that Frontskevich received not only “traveling and traveling”, but also daily allowance? By the way, they paid him serious money, for 245 days of 1898 of the year he was given in rubles converted to 4 555,85 rubles. For scale, A. A. Birilev, for example, the chief commander of the fleet and ports, the chief of defense of the Baltic Sea and the military governor of Kronstadt in 1904 received 14 000,00 rubles.
      "Worn out" he laughing
      1. +3
        8 July 2018 02: 15
        Quote: Comrade
        How does this Russian officer accept finished goods for the British battleships under construction, and even reports to this superiors?

        These "English armadillos" were called "Admiral Ushakov", "Poltava", "Three Saints" and "Sevastopol". wink
        Just once again, the domestic industry could not keep up with the domestic plans in bulk - and once again had to place orders in Britain. Moreover, I had to order not only mechanisms, but also body parts, such as stubs.
        However, there is nothing surprising - if you recall who built its first steam and armored ships for Russia. Or who built the flagship of the BF (at the beginning of the WWII). Even under Joseph Vissarionovich, an order for GTZA for EM pr.7 was partially placed in Britain. That's so peculiar English spoiler to our fleet. smile
        Quote: Comrade
        But in “Gangut” it is not said, by chance, that Frontskevich received not only “traveling and traveling”, but also daily allowance? By the way, they paid him serious money, for 245 days of 1898 he was given 4 rubles in rubles.

        So 1898 is much later than a business trip to Britain.
        Frantskevich went to Britain in 1892. Gangut (No. 38, 2006) published extracts from documents on that business trip. And in the report of Frantskevich to the chief inspector of the mechanical part of the fleet, he cited data on how much life in Britain cost him and how much he actually received.
        Income:
        Per diem - 18 shillings. Travel to Leeds and back - 60 shillings (based on the one and a half cost of the 2 class).
        Costs:
        Traveling in 3rd class - 31 shillings (which gave 29 shillings to save travel). The cheapest hotel in Leeds (room + lunch + tea morning and evening) - 12 shillings a day. Plus, you had to pay 9 shillings a day for “permanent housing” - an apartment rented in London.
        Balance:
        Based on the saved 29 shillings of travel cards, extended for a week in Leeds, Frantskevich’s daily income during a business trip outside London was 18 + 29/7 = ~ 22 shillings per day. Daily consumption only for food and accommodation 12 + 9 = 21 shilling.
        Given the constant travel (because sitting in London, the mechanisms and details can not be accepted), Frantskevich for all other expenses except travel, housing and food remained 1 shilling per day. And this is at best - if the business trip to Leeds was not delayed.
        1. +2
          9 July 2018 00: 10
          Quote: Alexey RA
          These "English armadillos" were called "Admiral Ushakov", "Poltava", "Three Saints" and "Sevastopol".

          Thank you for your reply, Alex, sorry, without understanding, I wrote to you.
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Income:
          Per diem - 18 shillings. Travel to Leeds and back - 60 shillings (based on the one and a half cost of the 2 class).
          Costs:

          Special thanks for the numbers, the ones in my comment were for the States.
  10. +5
    7 July 2018 04: 53
    The story of booking armor for the "Varyag" became canonical. When it came time to place an order for the supply of armor, it turned out that C. Crump was not going to order its production from extra-soft nickel steel, because, although it was the best option for an armored cruiser, it was not yet used on US ships. Accordingly, a loophole in the contract (in the Russian text it was said that the armor should correspond to the best world models, and considered the main English - that the best samples used by the US Navy) allowed Kramp to avoid using better, but also more expensive armor.

    The commonplace was reproaches to Kramp for trying to evade the latter from installing extra soft nickel steel, but for some reason they never washed the bones of Krupp, who did the same. Want extra-soft nickel steel at Askold? No question, any whim for your money.
  11. +2
    7 July 2018 20: 53
    Quote: Comrade
    The story of booking armor for the "Varyag" became canonical. When it came time to place an order for the supply of armor, it turned out that C. Crump was not going to order its production from extra-soft nickel steel, because, although it was the best option for an armored cruiser, it was not yet used on US ships. Accordingly, a loophole in the contract (in the Russian text it was said that the armor should correspond to the best world models, and considered the main English - that the best samples used by the US Navy) allowed Kramp to avoid using better, but also more expensive armor.

    The commonplace was reproaches to Kramp for trying to evade the latter from installing extra soft nickel steel, but for some reason they never washed the bones of Krupp, who did the same. Want extra-soft nickel steel at Askold? No question, any whim for your money.


    The question is, what would help the “Varyag” extra mild nickel steel against the main caliber of “Asama”? hi
  12. +3
    9 July 2018 11: 34
    In general, all of the above indicates that Charles Crump, without a doubt, was primarily focused not on creating the most efficient warship, but on the formal fulfillment of the contract.


    Oddly enough - the task of building the most efficient ship is not the task of the industrialist, his interest is to comply with the contract and deadlines.
    Manufacturers always strive to make it simpler, cheaper, and more - so Crump acted like an ordinary industrialist, nothing surprising.