The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 7. Port arthur

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So, February 25 1902 Mr. Varyag arrived in Port Arthur. Failures in attempts to develop a full course (the breakdowns followed already at 20 nodes) and a survey of the power plant of the cruiser by available experts showed that the ship needs thorough repairs. Two weeks (until March 15) preparatory work was carried out on the Varyag, and then the cruiser was enlisted in an armed reserve and repairs began, which lasted six weeks. Only April 30 went into the sea "Varyag", having begun training, including as part of a detachment of other ships - however, on May 4, 5 and 6 the ship held at anchor, celebrating their namesake. On May 7, combat training resumed, and in the morning of May 8, when taking pictures at anchor, the collector of one of the boilers burst. That is, the accident occurred through 5 running days after a serious repair with “shaking up” machines and boilers.

Nevertheless, in the period from the beginning of May to July inclusive, the Varyag was engaged in combat training. R.M. Melnikov mentions the presence of running gear problems (damage to the tubes) but does not specify them, so we will not talk about it either.



But from July 31, the cruiser gets back up for repair on the 2 month - until October October 1. Here it turns out that the 420 collectors of its boilers require the replacement of at least 40. It must be said that the Maritime Department preoccupied with the problem of collectors for the Nikloss boilers in the spring of 1902 r - having acquired two collectors as a model, it sent out proposals on the organization of their production in Russia to four plants: Franco-Russian, Baltic, Metallic and Putilov. All of them refused (only Putilovsky asked for 2 of the month for experiments and reflections), so it was decided to order collectors for Varyag abroad, but just then a tragedy occurred on the Retvizan squadron battleship. A pipe burst in one of the pots, scalded six people and three of them died.

A whole investigation was led in this regard, led by the chief inspector of the mechanical part fleet and the head of the mechanical department of MTK N.G. Nozikov. The result was a conclusion about the vicious design of Nikloss's boilers as a whole, and although N.G. Nozikov also gave recommendations with which one could reduce the chance of severe accidents, in their opinion, it was impossible to completely eliminate them.

The contract for the supply of collectors with water pipes was concluded only in December 1902 d - in addition to 30 collectors for Varyag (I wonder why only 30?) Also provided for the supply of 15 collectors for Retvizan, from which we can assume that similar problems.

Anyway, with the “Retvizan”, 1 of October “Varyag” started the sea trials. Two days later, an “epoch-making” event took place - during the preliminary tests, the rotation of the shafts was brought to 146 revolutions per minute, which corresponded to the speed (under normal load) 22,6 knots, and the ship withstood it. However, it should be understood that this speed was achieved only for a short time. But when October 19 cruiser tried to give full speed for a long time (gradually increasing the number of revolutions), the results were completely different. Before 100 revolutions, everything was fine, but 125 was only achieved by filling the bearings with water (to cool them). However, after five hours of travel, the dynamo-machine failed, leaving the ship without light, so the speed had to be reduced. Then, having repaired the dynamo, they again revolved up to 125, but after an hour and a little the bearing of the CVD of the left car began to warm up again and I had to resort to “water cooling” again. But in the late afternoon, because of the bursting of metal rings, the packing of the cylinder-shaft piston of the left car broke through and the cruiser could no longer hold the 125 revolutions, so that their number was reduced to 80. At night, the tube burst in the boiler # 11, three firemen received burns (fortunately - not fatal) ... In general, even the 20-nodal speed (corresponding to the rotation of the shafts at a speed of 125 rpm) was unattainable for the cruiser time.



The commission, which was present at the tests, came to the conclusion that, with the current state of the vehicles, the cruiser could not walk at high speeds and had to limit itself to the average. In addition, it was noted that at economic speed in 9 nodes, low-pressure cylinders develop only 54 hp power, which is not enough to rotate the crankshaft - on the contrary, he himself began to rotate the mechanisms of the machine, which, instead of smooth rotation, turned in jerks. In addition, the commission identified a list of measures that should be taken in order to ensure the cruiser's ability to walk at high speed - this required a new three-week repair ...

Vicar E.I. Alekseev was, of course, extremely dissatisfied with this state of affairs - he did not understand how the newest cruiser, having made the transition to the Far East "without any haste" and carrying a light (from the point of view of the load on its power plant) service, found himself in such regrettable condition . And indeed - during the 8 months of its stay on the Far (from March to October inclusive), the ship was in the repair and preparation for it of the 4 month, but at the same time in October could not keep 20 nodes for a long time. The governor proposed to bring the Varyag back to the armed reserve from 1 in November and repair it thoroughly, and then check its capacity with a full mileage of 250 miles.

However, the squadron commander had his own opinion on this matter - apparently, he understood that something had gone wrong, since such lengthy repairs of the cruiser do not have any effect. It is likely that OV Stark (who replaced N.I. Skrydlov in this post on October 9) suggested that the next bulkhead of all and all will not lead to success, and that it is necessary to “dig deeper” and identify the real reasons why the Varyag repairs do not lead to success. Therefore, he did not send the cruiser to be repaired, but ordered to form an extended commission and continue testing the ship.

The results were disappointing. The safe speeds of the cruiser were determined by 16 nodes - it should be understood that such speed was understood not as the state of the power plant, when everything goes fine (because on the Varyag now a sharp knock at the mechanisms was heard already at any speed), and this in which the knock became menacing and the heating of the bearings increased sharply.

The only advantage was that the work of the commission, in general, did not impede the combat training of the ship, which was conducted fairly intensively. So, on October 31, the Varyag demonstrated a very good result of counter-tack shooting, and the signal “Admiral is expressing its special pleasure” was raised on the files of the flagship cruiser “Russia”. The cruiser completed the 21 campaign on November 1902 g and prepared for new repairs - by this time the port had finished replacing the cylinder of the Petropavlovsk battleship machine (after which it easily showed the 16 nodes put to it on the passport).

It is also interesting that the Viceroy in his 16 report in December 1902 r praised the Varyag machine command and wrote that the cruiser’s malfunctions stem from a miscalculation in the draft of the machines — designed for full speed, they quickly became unusable, because time is the main mode of the course.

1903 has come the year. Almost a month and a half, from January 2 to February 15, repairs continued, and then the cruiser joined the campaign: but in fact, repairs were still going on. Now they did this - “Varyag” went out for a short time on running tests, after which there was a check and a reassembly of bearings. So, for example, 20 February in the presence of a commission composed of ship mechanics, walked on 12 4 nodes for an hour, briefly bringing the machine to 140 revolutions - this corresponded to the speed of 21,8 knots. in normal load, but considering the actual overload, the cruiser showed slightly more than 20 knots. In the course of further exits, it turned out that winter repair did not eliminate the main shortcomings of the cruiser’s power plant — bearings were also warming and knocking everything up and breaking the boiler tubes twice — five firemen were burned.

Well, on March 1, a significant event occurred - replaced by V.I. Beru arrived new cruiser commander - Vsevolod Fedorovich Rudnev, forty-seven years old.

The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 7. Port arthur


In what condition was the ship transferred to him?

Tests of the cruiser, which began in mid-February, continued until mid-April, that is, the cruiser 2 of the week was tested under the command of VI. Baer and a half months - under the command of V.F. Rudneva. Let us ask ourselves a question - could it have been that VF unprofessionalism? Rudnev somehow influenced the test results? Almost all tests of the cruiser power plant were carried out under the supervision of members of the commission of ship mechanics, and during their conduct, the chairman of the commission I.P. Ouspensky and from 2 to 5 mechanics from other ships. Accordingly, the likelihood that some erroneous orders V.F. Rudnev led to failures, strives for absolute zero - he simply would not be allowed to do them, and if the new commander had abused his power "first after God", this would certainly have been reflected in the conclusion of the commission. I.P. Ouspensky himself was the commander of the squadron battleship "Poltava" and forced him to silence V.F. Rudnev could not.

In addition, supporters of the point of view “Everything was fine with V.I.Bare, and then V.F. Rudnev and everything is broken. ”There is a logical contradiction of a psychological nature. The fact is that critics of the commander of “Varyag” usually depict him as a cowardly and “subtly feeling political moments” person. However, if V.F. Rudnev was, then what action would he take, taking under his command a cruiser, whose problems in cars and boilers have become the talk of the town? In the first place, the illiterate and cowardly careerist commander would hide behind the broad backs of the commission members, in no way disputing her actions and in everything listening to her recommendations. That is, such a person would be concerned first of all with the fact that, as it were, the blame for the malfunctions of the ship would not be laid on him, and what could be the best way for this, how not to delegate responsibility to the commission that happened so by the way?

Based on the foregoing, the author of this article concludes, being fully confident in him: the condition of the cruiser, as described in the conclusion of the commission of ship mechanics under the chairmanship of I.P. Ouspensky from 17 April 1903 g, in no way can be imputed to the claim V.F. Rudnevu. By the way, how was it actually?

In accordance with the conclusion, the cruiser could walk at medium speed, but no more than 16 nodes, it was briefly allowed to increase its speed to 20 nodes, but it was noted that Varyag could not maintain any long course on 20 nodes.
In other words, the long-term repair of the cruiser and its subsequent tests were considered unsuccessful, it was by their results that it was decided to engage engineer I.I. Gippius, who led the assembly of machines and boilers of the destroyers built here by the branch of the St. Petersburg Nevsky Plant. Without going into the details listed in one of the previous articles, we once again quote his conclusion:

“It goes without saying that the crump plant, hurrying to hand over the cruiser, did not have time to level the steam distribution; The car quickly got upset, and on the ship, naturally, they began to fix the parts that suffered more than others in the sense of heating, knocking, without eliminating the root cause. In general, straightening the vehicle, originally released from the factory with ship's means, is undoubtedly an extremely difficult, if not impossible, task. ”


Without a doubt, one can still argue for a long time about what caused such a deplorable state of the Varyag machines and boilers - the mistakes and marriage of the cruiser builder, C. Crump, or the illiterate operation of his cars and boilers, as well as unqualified repairs. The author of this article has already presented his point of view, according to which it is the Americans who are to blame, but, of course, recognizes the readers' right to different conclusions. However, regardless of the reasons that caused the inability of the ship to develop more 20 nodes, and then - for a short time, there is an absolutely reliable fact: Vsevolod Fedorovich Rudnev had a cruiser with such characteristics at its disposal, but did not bring the Varyag to them.

Further, alas, everything went on the thumb. As we said earlier, the cruiser trials continued until mid-April, and then the cruiser entered the campaign - but it was very brief for him, because after 2 of the month, 14 of June 1903, the ship re-entered the armed reserve for the next repair from which only 5 came out October. In fact, work on the cruiser continued further - the right machine was assembled only in the first half of the day on October 9 and at the same time the cruiser went to the first tests. The speed was brought to the 16 nodes (110 rpm), but again there was a case of heating the CVD bearing in the left car. Then ... then tests took place, the results of which supporters of the version that Chemulpo the cruiser could easily develop much more than the 20-nodal course like to quote.

So, the 16 of October cruiser during the 12-hour test without any problems was able to bring the speed to 140 (which, as we said earlier, corresponded to the speed of 21,8 knots in normal load), and then, on November 15, the cruiser for three hours kept 130 revolutions ( which gave a speed value in the range from 20 to 20,5 knots, again, with the ship’s normal displacement). It was these achievements of the cruiser's power plant that allowed the "subversors of the foundations" to declare that the Varyag in Chemulpo could easily give 21-22 speed knots, or even more.

But in fact, it was like that - yes, indeed 12-hour tests took place, but the fact is that during this time Varyag passed only 157 miles, in other words, its average speed in these tests barely exceeded 13 nodes . That is, the cruiser really reached 140 speed and, fortunately, it did not break anything, but this achievement was very short and did not indicate that the cruiser could go for such a long time with such speed. As for the November 15 tests, here, as a rule, R. M. Is quoted as saying by supporters of the version of the “high-speed Varyag in Chemulpo”. Melnikov: “Tests lasted only three hours, the speed was brought to 130 rpm,” but for some reason, they “forget” to quote the end of the sentence “... but then they subtracted to 50 — the bearings warmed up again.”

And besides, you need to understand that such crankshaft revolutions corresponded to the indicated speeds only at the displacement of the cruiser corresponding to the normal one, that is, 6 500 t. At the same time, in the conditions of the daily service, the Varyag could not have such a displacement - it is known that after the repair was completed, the cruiser accepted 1 330 t of coal and its displacement exceeded 7 400 t. Accordingly, with its normal loading with other supplies, in order to fit into the 6 500 t put on the passport, the cruiser should alo have on board no more than 400 tons of coal, which, of course, "to march and fight" was totally inadequate. Well, taking into account the actual displacement of the Varyag, its speed at 130-140 revolutions was barely more than 19-20 nodes.

More major repairs to the battle in Chemulpo "Varyag" did not pass. We also see how quickly the power plant of the cruiser fell into disrepair during operation, so we can assume that by the time of the battle with the Japanese squadron, the machines and Varyag boilers were in worse condition than during the October and November trials (V.F. Rudnev talked about 14 nodes, and in view of the above, this figure does not look unrealistic). However, we cannot know this firmly, however, in any case, the condition of the boilers and cruisers in Chemulpo could not be better than after the last repair.

Thus, in a 28 battle in January, 1904 g is the maximum that even theoretically one would expect from the Varyag power plant - this is the ability to confidently hold 16-17 nodes and briefly increase this speed to 20 nodes, but the latter is at risk of damaging mechanisms. Most likely, the capabilities of the cruiser were even lower.

And now, in order not to return to the question of the state of the Varyag machines and boilers and go over to the issues of its combat training and the circumstances of the battle in Chemulpo, we will try to formulate answers to the main questions and questions raised by readers during the reading of the cycle and their opinions.

As we have said many times before, the main reason for the failure of Varyag machines is its incorrect setting (steam distribution), which is why the economic speed of the ship and steam pressure below 15,4 atm. low-pressure cylinders ceased to rotate the crankshaft (they lacked energy), and instead they themselves began to be driven by the crankshaft. As a result, the latter received an uneven load that was not planned by its design, which led to a rapid failure of high and medium pressure ram bearings of the cylinder, and then a complete breakdown of the machine. The author of this article claimed that the plant of C. Crump was to blame for this kind of machines. However, a number of respected readers had the opinion that the Varyag team was to blame for such damage to the machines, as if it maintained the appropriate steam pressure in the boilers (that is, more than 15,3 atmospheres), there would be no problems. The objection that such pressure could not be maintained in the boilers of Nikloss without the risk of emergency situations, is relied on by such readers as untenable on the grounds that the Retvizan battleship, which also had Nicloss boilers, was not observed, and besides when the Varyag and Retvizan were among the Japanese, there were no complaints about the operation of their boilers.

It is worth mentioning the verdict of the ITC, compiled by him on the results of the report of the governor EI. Alekseeva and numerous reports and reports of technical specialists who participated in the examination and repair of the Varyag mechanical installation. In their opinion, even if the cruiser’s vehicles were fully operational, it would still not be possible to give the cruiser speed over 20 units, since it would be extremely dangerous for the firemen to maintain the steam output required for this by the Nikloss boilers. Back in 1902, the chief inspector of the mechanical part of the fleet, NG Nozikov did a great job of assessing the performance of Nikloss boilers in the fleets of various countries. In addition to accidents on the "Brave", "Retvzane" and "Varyag" N.G. Nozikov also studied the circumstances of the emergency situations of the Deside and Zeli gunboats, the battleship “Men”, the steamer “Rene-Andre” and several cruisers. He came to the conclusion that accidents in these boilers occur even “in the normal state of the water level in them, in the absence of its saltiness, and in the completely clean state of the water pipes, i.e. under conditions whereby Belvill water tube boilers and other systems work flawlessly. ”

To the question why the power plant “Retvizana” with Nikloss’s boilers and machines assembled by C. Crump’s plant turned out to be fully operational, should be answered like this: in fact, the state of Retvisan during its transition to Port Arthur requires additional study and analysis .



Unfortunately, domestic historians have not yet written detailed monographs on this ship. Usually, the only accident of “Retvizan” on going to Russia is mentioned, and then, as if, everything was fine. But, if so, why then at the end of 1902 r for the "Retvisan" 15 collectors were ordered for boilers? For reserve? This is extremely doubtful, because, as we know, Varyag required the replacement of 40 collectors, and all 30 was ordered and it was extremely difficult to assume that 15 collectors were bought for the battleship without any need. Rather, we can assume that we have ordered the very minimum for the repair required by the ship. We can also recall that R.M. Melnikov casually mentions problems with the valves of blowing boilers "Retvizana", in any way, however, without explaining the severity of these faults.

But the most important thing is that the unreconciled steam distribution of the Varyag cars does not at all imply the existence of the same problem on the Retvisan. In other words, it is quite possible that Retvizan’s machines worked perfectly under reduced vapor pressure, and the low pressure cylinders on them did not create the preconditions for loosening the cars that were on the Varyag. Thus, we can state that story Retvizan’s power plant is still waiting for its researchers, and the information we have about it does not refute and does not confirm the version of Charles Crump’s fault in the deplorable state of the Varyag cars. As for the operation of "Varyag" and "Retvizana" in Japan, it should be understood that we know absolutely nothing about it. Japan is a very closed in terms of information country, which does not like to “lose face”, describing its own failures in something. In fact, we only know that both the Varyag and the Retvizan were incorporated into the Japanese fleet and were exploited for some time in it, but that’s all about the condition or the capabilities of the power plants of these ships during the service "no information.

Sometimes, as an example of the reliability of the Nikloss boilers, it is indicated that the Japanese, raising the Varyag, which was flooded in Chemulpo, did not tow it to the shipyard, and the ship reached it using its own boilers. But at the same time, for example, Kataev indicates that the Japanese decided to switch to the “Varyag” under their own boilers only after they replaced the faulty hot-water pipes and collectors, that is, we can talk about major repairs of the boilers before switching, so there is nothing surprising in this not. It is also known that Varyag, after its lifting and long-term repairs in Japan, was able to develop an 22,71 node on tests, but it should be understood that the cruiser managed to achieve such speed only after a major overhaul of machines and mechanisms - for example, cylinder bearings were completely replaced high and medium pressure.

It should be understood that the Varyag cars were not initially vicious, they were, if one can put it that way, unfinished, not brought to mind, and their lack (steam distribution) could well be corrected. The problem of the Russian sailors was that they did not immediately understand the true causes of the problems of the cruiser’s vehicles, and for a long time (during the transitions to Russia and Port Arthur) they tried to eliminate the consequences - while they did this, the machines became completely upset. This does not indicate some inexperience of the ship’s machine crew - as I.I. Gippius, such repairs are beyond the competence of the crew. And, of course, if “Varyag” carried its service not in Port Arthur but, for example, in the Baltic, where there were adequate ship repair facilities, then his cars could be straightened. But Varyag was located in Port Arthur, whose capabilities were very, very limited, and therefore did not receive the required repairs: The Japanese most likely made such repairs, because the cruiser was able to show on the 22,71 tests. A completely different question - how long could he maintain such speed and how quickly did he lose this opportunity? After all, when the Varyag was bought out by Russia, the officers who examined it noted that the cruisers' boilers were in very poor condition and would last a maximum of a year or two, and then they should be changed. All the old problems encountered by Varyag were evident - there were cracks in the collectors, and tube deflection, and in addition, there was “some deflection of the propeller shafts”. By the way, the Japanese "were ashamed" to demonstrate the cruiser even at low speed, although the battleships (the former Poltava and Peresvet) were taken out to sea.

Accordingly, we must understand that the lack of information about breakdowns and other problems of power plants during the service of Retvizan and Varyag in Japan does not at all mean that such failures and problems have not arisen.

Another very reasonable objection to the author of this article was made about the statistics of cruiser repairs (for one running day it took almost the same amount of repair time) during his transition from the USA to Russia and then to Port Arthur. It consisted in the fact that such statistics make sense only in comparison with the results achieved by other ships, and this, no doubt, is true. Unfortunately, the author of this article managed to find information only on the armored cruiser “Bayan”, equipped with Belleville boilers, but it is also very “talking”.

"Bayan" was preparing to move to Port Arthur from the Mediterranean Sea, being near the island of Poros - there he waited for 40 days for the squadron battleship "Tsesarevich" and there, with him, made all the necessary preparations for the ocean passage. Unfortunately, it is not known how much work was done on the part of boilers and cars, whether their reassembly was done according to the model and similarity of how it was done at Varyag - but in any case, we can say that the commander of Bayan did everything necessary for the ocean passage.



After that, "Bayan" poisoned the way on the route of. Poros - Port Said - Suez - Djibouti - Colombo - Sabang - Singapore - Port Arthur. In total, the cruiser spent 35 days on the road and 20 - parked in the above points, on average a little more than 3 days for each, not counting Poros and Port Arthur. There is no information that the ship had to be engaged in repairing cars at these sites, on arrival at Port Arthur "Bayan" was quite combat-ready and did not require repair. The first information about the problems with his car appear 5 February 1904 g, after the start of the war and the participation of the cruiser in the battle 27 January. On February 5, the cruiser was supposed to go along with Askold to explore the Bond islands, but one of the bearings of the right machine got hot on Bayan, which was corrected during the four-day repair and the ship continued its military service.

“Varyag” was preparing to leave the Mediterranean Sea, being at the island of Salamis - we deliberately omit all his misadventures until this moment (the car’s bulkheads in Dunkirk and Algeria did not do anything like “Bayan”), because we’ll stop at Salamina IN AND. Baer received orders to leave the Mediterranean Sea and follow into the Persian Gulf. And we reliably know that the Varyag machine team for at least two weeks was engaged in the bulkhead of machines - they, most likely, had been doing this for longer, and we are talking about two weeks only because V.I. Rem asked them to additionally repair the power plant.

So, after entering the Persian Gulf and before coming to Colombo, the cruiser Varyag spent 29 running days at sea and 26 days at various stops. During this time, the cruiser had three accidents in the boilers and repeatedly repaired its own machines and boilers, not only in the parking areas, but also on the go (5 000 bulkhead of boiler tubes and evaporators in the Red Sea). However, upon arrival in Colombo V.I. Rem was forced to ask permission for a two-week delay for the next repair of the power plant. She was given to him. Then the cruiser went out to sea again, but again had a problem with heating the bearings of high-pressure cylinders, so after 6 the days of the sea passage rose in Singapore on 4 of the day, of which 3 was engaged in the bulkhead of machines, and then 6 of the transition to Hong Kong and a week of repair work in him. In order to get from Hong Kong to Nagasaki and from there to Port Arthur, it took 7 days at sea together, but on arrival at Port Arthur the cruiser immediately got into a six-week repair.

Thus, it is quite obvious that on the way to the Far East, “Varyag” under repair lasted longer than “Bayan” spent time on all the parking lots (regardless of what he was doing there) on the way to Port Arthur, despite the fact that armored cruiser to the destination came quite well.

Another interesting remark is also interesting - the history of the acceptance tests of the armored cruiser “Askold”. Here, the author’s respected opponents stress a lot of problems identified during the cruiser’s trials, guided by the following logic: since “Askold” had such significant difficulties, but he fought quite normally, it means that the “root of evil” was not in the design of the Varyag power plant, and in the abilities of his machine commands.

What can I say? Yes, indeed - “Askold” gave up tediously long and difficult, but ...

The first output took place on 11 on April 1901 of r - malfunction of the feed pumps, tube breaks in the boilers, strong vibrations, and all this at the speed of some 18,25 ties. The cruiser returned for revision. The next way out was 23 in May of the same year: representatives of the plant expected that the cruiser would demonstrate contract speed, but the Russian observers, having fixed the sound of the machines and vibration, interrupted the tests and returned the ship for revision. The release of June 9 showed that the mechanisms work better, and N.K. Reizenstein allowed the cruiser to go to Hamburg to continue testing. The ship in Hamburg docked, and then went to Kiel around the Jutland peninsula by the North Sea and the Danish Straits - the company's management wanted to test the cruiser during a longer voyage. In the North Sea, the cruiser walked under two cars at speeds of 15 bonds. It seems that everything turned out not so bad, but the tests of the ship are postponed for another month. Finally, 25 July "Askold" goes ... no, not at all for the final tests, but only for grinding bearings - the cruiser cars gave 90-95 turns of power, the result was not satisfied with the selection committee and the ship was sent back for revision.

And now, finally, the cruiser goes 19 August for preliminary tests - the speed of 23,25 knots is reached, and during 10 runs, the average speed was 21,85 knots. But the corrosive Russian doesn’t like something again, and “Askold” returns to eliminate comments on the operation of its mechanisms - this time very insignificant, but still. On September 6, “Askold” goes to the Danzig measuring mile and fulfills the terms of the contract - but in the cars a knock is heard and the glands float. The result - the cruiser returns for revision. After 9 days, the ship is allowed to be officially tested and passes and well - there are no complaints about its power plant.

Everything? Yes, nothing happened. November 3 cruiser goes to additional tests, shows everything that is necessary under the contract, the machines and mechanisms work without comment. And only then, finally, the selection committee is satisfied and announces the end of the running tests of "Askold".

And now let's compare this with the admissions tests of the Varyag. We will not list them all, but remember that during the final tests on the cruiser, the tube of one boiler was torn, the refrigerator began to drip the night after the tests, and the revision of the machines and boilers revealed a number of defects in the test field.

Thus, it is possible to talk about the fundamental difference in the approaches when carrying out the sea trials of “Askold” and “Varyag”. If the first was accepted by the commission only after its members were convinced that the contractual rates of speed were achieved with normal, not causing any complaints of the mechanisms, then for the second the basis for admission to the treasury was only the fact of reaching the contract speed. The fact that, at the same time, the Varyag boilers and machines demonstrated a very unreliable operation, alas, did not become a reason for the return of the cruiser for revision. In other words, the selection committee under the guidance of N.K. Reytsenshteyna "did not tear off" from the Germans until they eliminated the remarks on the reliability of the power plant "Askold", but the one who received the "Varyag" E.N. Schensnovich, alas, could not achieve this from Charles Crump. It is difficult to say what was to blame - the specifics of the contract signed with Charles Crump, or the direct oversight of the monitoring commission, but the fact remains: after all the modifications, the cars and boilers of Askold turned out to be quite reliable, but Varyag, alas, could not boast.

To be continued ...
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  1. +2
    26 July 2018 08: 55
    Finally!
    Already ate waitresses ...
  2. +4
    26 July 2018 09: 22
    Very interesting technical and other details. A car (especially such as a warship) can be cast out only by analyzing the totality of all systems and assemblies, and a comparative analysis is not superfluous.
    I read with pleasure and look forward to continuing
  3. +3
    26 July 2018 10: 02
    It must be understood that the Varyag machines were not initially vicious, they were, so to speak, unfinished, not brought to mind and their lack (steam distribution) could well be corrected. The problem of the Russian sailors was that they did not immediately figure out the true causes of the problems of the cruiser’s cars, and for a long time (during the transitions to Russia and Port Arthur) they tried to eliminate the consequences - while they did, the cars became completely upset.
    Here you can agree and disagree.
    Knocked out the lid of a high cylinder on the first exit to the sea. Nowhere did you come across for what reason? And there can be two reasons: a water hammer due to water entering between the cap and the piston or improper adjustment of the entire pressure cylinder of the high pressure cylinder on which the cylinder cap was knocked out. From my own experience, it’s true that with similar accidents in the internal combustion engine, the engine had porridge from the fragments of pistons, connecting rods and other iron. What I’m talking about: ship’s steam engines were double-acting machines and in this accident the piston rod could simply bend, due to this there are constant problems with the seals with the high-pressure piston rod seal. And the second one: with a water hammer, it breaks and twists the crankshaft. One can only guess at what size the 13-meter K / Shaft could twist and bend. THIS IMHO. But such defects can destroy the bearings and lead to the destruction of the bearing shells. Are there any other questions? Whether the angles between the crank crankshaft crankshafts were sustained, they should have been balanced by a balance of 90 degrees.
    1. +1
      26 July 2018 11: 02
      This is how legends and myths arise --- the already very weakly reasoned hypothesis (about hydroblow) is presented as a fact.
      Well, how is it known that there was a water hammer, and not, corny, the American good fellow done with a sledgehammer put a sledgehammer in place?
      1. +3
        26 July 2018 11: 59
        Quote: AK64
        Well, how is it known that there was a water hammer, and not, corny, an American good fellow of a hairpin laid a sledgehammer in place


        Yes, it’s much simpler - the studs settled under pressure - the thread floated. They were pulled up or not - now you can’t tell.
    2. +1
      26 July 2018 15: 49
      Amurets, your questions show prefessional knowledge
    3. +1
      26 July 2018 23: 19
      Quote: Amurets
      water hammer due to water between the cap and piston

      Water hammer? What did you mean? Superheated steam and any water becomes steam!
      1. 0
        27 July 2018 05: 17
        Quote: non-primary
        Superheated steam and any water becomes steam!

        Are you sure that Nikloss boilers gave out superheated steam?
        Where do you see a superheater here?
        1. 0
          27 July 2018 05: 29
          but the opinion of foreigners before and after the battle
          Finally, before the start of the famous battle, the English Commodore Bailey, who knew about the condition of the mechanical part of the Russian cruiser, offered him "internment under the English flags - as non-combat, incapable of participating in hostilities"

          The commander of the French cruiser Pascal wrote in his diary, “We saluted these heroes, who were walking so proudly for certain death!”

          The Japanese, who examined the sunken "Varyag", were extremely surprised. Engineer Arai reported to Admiral Uriu that his entire squadron "could not sink a hopelessly faulty ship for an hour" The verdict of Japanese experts who examined the sunk "Varyag" was harsh: "A congenital defect in running gears, multiplied by combat damage, leaves this Russian too little chance . Rescue work is economically unprofitable, and even if its skinny hull can withstand overload during a lifting operation, it will be impossible to put the ship into operation. "Http://www.leanok.ru/2015/07/varyag-
          i-kotly-niklossa.html
        2. +2
          27 July 2018 08: 09
          Where do you see a superheater here?

          At that time, all the water tube boilers (or almost) were without superheaters.
          The Japanese, who examined the sunken "Varyag", were extremely surprised. Engineer Arai reported to Admiral Uriu that ....... The verdict of the Japanese experts who examined the sunk "Varyag" was harsh: "A birth defect in the undercarriage systems, multiplied by combat damage, leaves this Russian too little chance. Rescue work is economically disadvantageous, and even if his skinny hull can withstand overload during a lifting operation, it will be impossible to put the ship in operation "

          Do not trust a single quote from the Runet (generally from the Internet) until you personally verify it. Do not trust a quote from Japanese at all - 99% that this is a fiction.
          1. +1
            27 July 2018 12: 29
            At that time, all the water tube boilers (or almost) were without superheaters.

            Yes, they became in demand after switching to turbines. Superheated ("dry") steam does not contain the smallest droplets that act abrasively on the turbine blades. But the benefits of superheaters are for PM.
            1. +1
              27 July 2018 14: 00
              But the benefits of superheaters are for PM.

              It is for fire tubes, and even for locomotives.
              But the fact is the fact: at that time superheaters were not common. (Which is not good, of course)
        3. +1
          30 July 2018 11: 27
          Quote: Amurets
          Where do you see a superheater here?

          Answered above - not overheated. Saturated.
          1. 0
            30 July 2018 12: 53
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            Answered above - not overheated. Saturated.

            saturated yes, I agree.
  4. avt
    +4
    26 July 2018 10: 21
    good Special thanks for the comparison with ,, Askold "in terms of acceptance tests good That's how I just like this ship and that's it. bully
  5. +1
    26 July 2018 10: 44
    Still, you must put the cart and horse in the correct position.
    1.If steam is supplied to the machine with a pressure below the specification, then this is definitely illiterate operation.
    You can, of course, say that this was only the second ship in the RIF with four-cylinder engines and the crew could not learn to operate such vehicles anywhere, but this does not cancel paragraph 1.
    2. Nikloss boilers were "capricious" and required careful and competent operation in
    In this sense, they were in no way suitable for installation on military equipment, because in the army and navy everything should be as simple as a soldier’s bowler hat. But this again does not abolish the stigma of “illiterate exploitation,” as applied to the Varyag team.
    Those. Kramp, in no way related to the breakdown of cars and boilers.
    1. +5
      26 July 2018 11: 00
      Twenty-five again ... That's really what you do, but all "God's dew"
      You can, of course, say that this was only the second ship in the RIF with four-cylinder engines and the crew could not learn to operate such vehicles anywhere, but this does not cancel paragraph 1.

      And how is a 4-cylinder different from a 3-cylinder? Nothing, he just has the 3rd cylinder divided into two. (This complicates and complicates the steam divorce - but it should be the manufacturer’s problems)
      1.If steam is supplied to the machine with a pressure below the specification, then this is definitely illiterate operation.

      Can I see the original of this very "specification"? Now, if there is a manual where it is recorded - then okay, we will assume that users are to blame. (Yes, and then it would be necessary to ask whether they were introduced to that manual) And if not, then all claims to the manufacturer.
      2. Nikloss’s boilers were "capricious" and required careful and competent operation and in this sense were not suitable for installation on military equipment, because in the army and navy everything should be as simple as a soldier’s bowler. But this again does not abolish the stigma of “illiterate exploitation,” as applied to the Varyag team.

      And this is generally a miracle ... The whole world tried these boilers. The whole world refused. The whole world recognized that these boilers were junk. But still, "boilers are good."
      If they are not suitable for warships - from where are they suitable at all? On the commercials, they put much cheaper fire-tube plaid. (And when they stopped putting the Scots and switched to water pipes, then Nikloss himself and his boilers became an old-fashioned story.)
      1. +1
        26 July 2018 17: 24
        Andrei, did you graduate from high school? This is in which 10 or 11 classes. And what was your grade in physics?
        Nothing personal, but I need to know at what level you explain common truths.
        And for the overall development: if you, without reading the manual, ruin a complex (or simple) unit, then it is not the unit manufacturer that is to blame, but you and only you.
        1. 0
          26 July 2018 18: 34
          every kid thinks of himself as titanium
          \ and shook his head dejectedly \
          1. +7
            26 July 2018 18: 51
            Never mind. Jura is sincerely sure that at the beginning of the century any unit was accompanied by a detailed manual for use and it is impossible to convince him of this. The fact, for example, that the same British complained about the same time about the lack of clear instructions on the operation of Belleville boilers (that is, there were instructions, but signed by the Admiralty, not the manufacturers of boilers, while in some places they wrote fierce nonsense ) - this is all unimportant. There is a detailed manual, it cannot but be, it tells you Jura27! laughing
            1. +2
              26 July 2018 19: 21
              Just as below, Andrei Moon just as sacredly believes that at that time there were modern laws to protect consumer rights .... Well, they could not be absent, these are "enlightened States"! O "Henry would have read something ...
            2. +4
              27 July 2018 02: 57
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              There is a detailed manual, it cannot but be, it tells you Jura27!

              Dear colleague, it’s funny, but in the instruction manual for Belleville boilers (Nickloss doesn’t have, alas) there is no term used by our self-proclaimed “guru”steam specification pressure". That's all there is about steam pressure.

              Here's a picture emerges from the everyday life of "Varyag". There is a senior ship mechanic, an assistant to a senior mechanical engineer N. G. Leykov, and impatiently looks, how many are already there? He sees forty pounds .. He waves his hand and screams, let the couple go, what’s there!
              1. 0
                27 July 2018 15: 49
                Quote: Comrade
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                There is a detailed manual, it cannot but be, it tells you Jura27!

                Dear colleague, it’s funny, but in the instruction manual for Belleville boilers (Nickloss doesn’t have, alas) there is no term used by our self-proclaimed “guru”steam specification pressure". That's all there is about steam pressure.

                Here's a picture emerges from the everyday life of "Varyag". There is a senior ship mechanic, an assistant to a senior mechanical engineer N. G. Leykov, and impatiently looks, how many are already there? He sees forty pounds .. He waves his hand and screams, let the couple go, what’s there!

                Did you hear anything about the form of the ship of that time? Read at your leisure and you will not write nonsense.
            3. 0
              27 July 2018 15: 47
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Never mind. Jura is sincerely sure that at the beginning of the century any unit was accompanied by a detailed manual for use and it is impossible to convince him of this. The fact, for example, that the same British complained about the same time about the lack of clear instructions on the operation of Belleville boilers (that is, there were instructions, but signed by the Admiralty, not the manufacturers of boilers, while in some places they wrote fierce nonsense ) - this is all unimportant. There is a detailed manual, it cannot but be, it tells you Jura27! laughing

              In your opinion, Gippius and modern authors of monographs on ships take figures of steam pressure, cylinder sizes and piston stroke of steam engines from fiercely Achinean English instructions?
              1. +2
                27 July 2018 18: 05
                Quote: Jura 27
                In your opinion, Gippius and modern authors of monographs on ships take figures of steam pressure, cylinder sizes and piston stroke of steam engines from fiercely Achinean English instructions?

                Gippius considered this indicator himself :)
          2. 0
            27 July 2018 15: 43
            [/ quote] AK64 (Andrei) Yesterday, 18:34 ↑
            each peanot imagines itself to be titanium [quote]


            Shaw, didn’t they finish high school? Or did you get the top three in physics out of pity?
    2. +1
      26 July 2018 15: 55
      Jura, of course, Crump personally does not spoil the car, and the rush and a clear contract suggest his fault
      1. 0
        26 July 2018 17: 25
        You can assume anything, but clear evidence is needed to prove guilt. But there are none against Krump, from the word at all.
    3. +2
      30 July 2018 11: 33
      Quote: Jura 27
      Nikloss's boilers were "capricious" and required careful and competent operation in
      In this sense, they were in no way suitable for installation on military equipment, because in the army and navy everything should be as simple as a soldier’s bowler hat. But this again does not abolish the stigma of “illiterate exploitation,” as applied to the Varyag team.


      But Kramp was concerned about who and how in Russia operate boilers ???
      His task was to provide appropriate speed indicators, and he provided them.
      And the fact that the crew did not know how to handle the latest technology - these are the problems of those who planned the operation - MTK.
      1. +1
        30 July 2018 17: 42
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Quote: Jura 27
        Nikloss's boilers were "capricious" and required careful and competent operation in
        In this sense, they were in no way suitable for installation on military equipment, because in the army and navy everything should be as simple as a soldier’s bowler hat. But this again does not abolish the stigma of “illiterate exploitation,” as applied to the Varyag team.


        But Kramp was concerned about who and how in Russia operate boilers ???
        His task was to provide appropriate speed indicators, and he provided them.
        And the fact that the crew did not know how to handle the latest technology - these are the problems of those who planned the operation - MTK.

        So I’ve been trying, for a long time, to explain to the author of these “Varangian” opuses that there is no evidence of Kramp’s guilt in supposedly bad cars and boilers, from the word at all.
  6. +1
    26 July 2018 10: 48
    heroic people are mechanics on these cruisers. you read. and the horror takes
  7. +6
    26 July 2018 11: 47
    Thus, we can talk about a fundamental difference in approaches when conducting sea trials of Askold and Varyag. .... In other words, the selection committee under the leadership of N.K. Reitsenstein “did not get off” the Germans until they eliminated the comments on the reliability of the Askold power plant, but E.N., who received the Varyag, Schensnovich, alas, could not achieve this from C. Crump.


    This is certain.
    Just as machines were a piece of engineering work and everything turned out to be different (even having one design), so the selection commissions differed in competence and requirements.
    This was characteristic both for that time and after the revolution, until military acceptance was introduced at domestic factories, which had very clear criteria for the adoption of military equipment, weapons and equipment.
    And what can I say - even in such a case as aviation in WWII it was necessary to trim the rudders, since each plane had its own individual geometry of the plane and fuselage, misalignment of the engine, etc.
    And even the “punctual” Germans introduced special plates on the Bf-109:
    Aerodynamic balancing of the rudders is done on the ground by bending the stationary plates
    .
    Yes, that WWII - the assembled Su-27s have each their own "character."

    However, to Varyag - here it is worth sharing the problems:
    - with boilers (which were assigned the majority of repairs) - here the issue is quite open and requires no explanation - boilers in that state were "raw".
    - machine ones, of which the basic regulation of steam distribution (which is apparently outside the competence of the machine team and is performed in the conditions of the port / base)
    and overheating of bearings at high speeds of the machine - here you need a comment - babbit bearings of that time are almost a consumable item (they were available on the boat in a certain quantity and with enviable regularity for high-speed machines, they were replaced) and the knock depends on their exact fit (wear indicator or imbalance) or overheating
    Let me remind you that Retvisan (like any armadillo or mine transport) did not develop such high revolutions of the machine as on a cruiser - therefore, for not so fast ships with revolutions of the car within 100-110 rpm, this problem was not so noticeable as for Varangian (120-140 rpm). Therefore, for Varyag, for his high-speed machine, the accuracy of bearing alignment and the exact adjustment of the oil supply were extremely important to create an oil bath in a babbit bearing.

    The author does not write anything about the condition of the repair shops of the base and only points to “lengthy repairs”.
    You can turn to historical sources to understand the competencies of the technical management of Port Arthur Port and its repair base:
    At the report of E. I. Alekseev, the note 3. P. Rozhestvensky draws attention: “Before the complete sorting of the mechanisms in Port Arthur, the cruiser could give 20 knots for a short time, and 16 knots for a longer one. After the first bulkhead without harm to the machines, the speed limit was 17 knots. What will be this limit after the second bulkhead in Port Arthur? ”

    Indeed, port repair facilities provided the basis for such comments.
    Since the occupation of Port Arthur in March 1898, all successive squadron commanders have not ceased reporting to St. Petersburg about the glaring disproportion of the repair facilities of the main base with the needs of the fleet.

    Each of them tried in vain to prove that the payroll of the fleet does not yet guarantee high combat power, that large expenditures are required to maintain its combat effectiveness and, above all, for constant repair work; that with a break in relations with Japan, where many materials come from, the Port Arthur squadron will quickly lose its combat significance.

    Almost twice a month, its first chief, Admiral F.V. Dubasov, telegraphed to the Ministry about the apparent lack of allotted loans and materials for repair work on the squadron. In his reports, he argued that the number of workers established by V.P. Verkhovsky, as quite sufficient, in fact, with a constantly increasing volume of work, was completely insignificant and that the repair of ships recommended by V.P. Verkhovsky by their personnel would only turn this the crew is in bad artisans and bad sailors, and the fleet will remain without repair and without combat training


    And then the following information comes across the bearings:
    In the book of the "Varyag" commander V.F. Rudnev, published after the Russo-Japanese War, the test failure was explained by the "unsatisfactory metal" of the bearings, as a result of which the cruiser speed was limited to 14 knots.
    A similar explanation ... I heard from P.V. Vorobyov, the oldest mechanical engineer of our fleet, who was then serving on the Vlastny destroyer and familiar with the Varyag mechanical engineer Y. S. Soldatov.
    ...... the blame was the head bearings of the connecting rods, made of some particularly hard bronze, which allowed high specific pressures. And when it's time to change the bearings,
    there was no such material in Port Arthur and all attempts to make a new casting failed.

    From archival documents, it is known that bronze liners for bearings, among many spare parts for Retvisan, were ordered in America by E. N. Schensnovich, but they never got to Port Arthur. Finally, in the materials on the construction of the ship there are references to high specific pressures, the difficulty of choosing lubricating oil and the unreliability of the lubrication system
    .

    That is, this version implies that the Varangian was designed using the latest achievements in metallurgy, in bearings used in a high-speed machine. And unfortunately, Port Arthur's workshops could not provide the appropriate quality of repairs and materials.

    Well, the conclusion of the MTK on Varyag cars:
    In a meeting chaired by the chief inspector N. G. Nozikov and with the participation of inspectors V. I. Afonasyev, F. A. Tyulev and the flagship mechanical engineer F. Ya. Porechkin, materials for Varyag acceptance in America and tests at the Port were examined in detail -Arthur. It was noted that upon arrival in Kronstadt the speed of the "Varyag" on the measuring line was not checked, but the fact of achieving 23-knot speed in America was not in doubt. Now, comparing the test results of the “Varyag”, “Askold” and “Bogatyr”, the MTK came to the conclusion that with the achieved capacity of the mechanisms on the “Varyag” 14147 liters. with. the speed could only slightly exceed 21 knots, although the machines are indeed able to develop a capacity of 20000 liters. with. and with a displacement of 6500 tons and a clean underwater surface, they can provide a speed of 23 knots.
    However, with boilers that were on the cruiser, it was impossible to guarantee such a speed, according to the MTK. The danger of tube rupture did not allow stokers to constantly maintain forced combustion in the furnaces, and even neglecting this danger, it was hardly possible to maintain the required steam output of the boilers for any length of time. The danger of accidents cannot be eliminated by installing thicker tubes in the lower rows. The only safety measure is “moderate heating”, so the MTK came to the conclusion that while Nikloss’s boilers remain on the “Varyag”, its speed, even if the machines are in good working order, will not exceed those 20 knots that were obtained when the cruiser was re-deepened during tests in Port- Arthur
  8. +3
    26 July 2018 12: 14
    The contract for the supply of collectors with water pipes was concluded only in December 1902 d - in addition to 30 collectors for Varyag (I wonder why only 30?) Also provided for the supply of 15 collectors for Retvizan, from which we can assume that similar problems.


    The problems are well known for all Nikloss boilers - overheating and upsetting of the lower row of pipes.
    And the recommendations were of the following nature - to make their tubes thicker.
    Like the problems of the collectors - on one side of the middle wall of the collector water - on the other, superheated steam - which cast iron can withstand such a temperature difference for a long time? Hence the warpage and cracks. But such a scheme significantly reduced heat loss (increased efficiency) and reduced the weight of thermal protection. As usual - something good causes big problems, than gives benefits ...
    In general, a breakthrough with respect to the thin walls of pipes on the lower rows of pipes in Nikloss was an inevitable evil of this scheme; in part, they could be offset by an increase in the thickness of the walls of the pipes, with some decrease in steam production.
    1. 0
      26 July 2018 16: 57
      Like the problems of the collectors - on one side of the middle wall of the collector water - on the other, superheated steam - which cast iron can withstand such a temperature difference for a long time?


      From where, exactly in this place, is superheated steam? Sorry, but in this place the superheated steam has nowhere to take.
      Well, or argue how the steam overheated there.

      Collector problems are due to the fact that they were hung on them from the other end of the tube that were not supported. Accordingly, a bending moment is inevitable in the attachment point. Plus a warm up. Voila
      1. +2
        27 July 2018 00: 23
        The second ends of the outer tubes — namely, they were heated — were fixed.
      2. +2
        27 July 2018 10: 54
        Quote: AK64
        Well, or argue how the steam overheated there.



        Temperature deformations in the middle wall of the collector separating boiler water and steam (I got excited with superheated :) we will call it saturated).


        Quote: AK64
        Collector problems are due to the fact that they were hung on them from the other end of the tube that were not supported. Accordingly, a bending moment is inevitable in the attachment point.


        You’re wrong - I’ve manually redefined more than one hundred pages on the calculations of shells of rotation and their terminations. For beams, it's even easier:

        For a XNUMX meter pipe, bending moments are insignificant and support at the second end of the pipe is still present.
        1. 0
          27 July 2018 11: 29
          For a XNUMX meter pipe, bending moments are negligible

          Exactly: 2m with a hook 5cm in diameter, a pipe filled with water is fastened at one end in a thin plate in which there is not even a normal socket --- but "bending moments are insignificant." Yeah.

          and support on the second end of the tube is still present.

          Yeah --- 1 cm (and at least as much as 2 cm - but there aren’t 2 there either) the depth of the niche is in a thin rear partition. 2m pipes how much longer due to temperature lengthen - will be reduced? The difference in the elongation of the pipes in the assembly, from bottom to top, what? But they are all embedded in such 1cm deep niches in one common thin partition. (The fact that it is common is important here)

          PS: someone here said that they say in the Nikloss boilers low heat loss due to the "water screen", they save, they say, Nikloss --- well, let him look at the back wall.
          1. 0
            27 July 2018 11: 37
            Here he is, the forerunner of the boiler of Nikloss, from where the Nikloss came from:


            This is the boiler of De Porreya. That's just in it the tubes are suspended vertically, and those bending loads, respectively, are not.
            PS: a good boiler, by the way, for limited areas. But for ships, of course, no good. And purging the tubes ... is problematic.
          2. +2
            27 July 2018 12: 06
            Quote: AK64
            Exactly: 2m with a hook 5cm in diameter, a pipe filled with water is fastened at one end in a thin plate, in which there is not even a normal socket --- but "bending moments are insignificant"



            I didn’t understand. Are you saying that the inner tube is supposedly fastened only to the boiler, but doesn’t have reinforcements at the second end?
            I did not want to go into the design of the antediluvian boiler in detail:
            Please note - the inner tube does not hang in the air, as in the diagrams, in the drawing, it has reinforcement on the outer tube - highlighted in the sketch.


            Quote: AK64
            Yeah --- 1 cm (and at least as much as 2 cm - but there aren’t 2 there either) the depth of the niche is in a thin rear partition. 2m pipes how much longer due to temperature lengthen - will be reduced?


            Thermal deformations in the linear dimensions of the pipe for this material and such temperatures within 1,7-2,5 mm offhand. That is, the seal in the back wall - more than with a margin - I do not see any miscalculations of engineers here.

            Quote: AK64
            (The fact that it is common is important here)

            What is important there :)) is a minor detail.
            Quote: AK64
            PS: someone here said that they say in the Nikloss boilers low heat loss due to the "water screen", they save, they say, Nikloss --- well, let him look at the back wall.

            Dear friend, if you have an idea about the arrangement of engine rooms of that time, it is false to imagine that the rear walls of the boilers went either on board or to the rear wall of another boiler - not too large spaces for servicing these parts (at best for inspection). Therefore, in most of the back of the boilers were made with a minimum of removable or complex parts - to seal the layout of the boiler room - I do not see any contradictions that the back wall of Nikloss was a single part - the designers thought that it does not need to be complicated, since you have to leave large useless service spaces.
            1. +1
              27 July 2018 22: 56
              Super! I have never come across a drawing for attaching an inner tube, although there were some vague references. Thank you, you helped clarify a very interesting constructive moment.
              1. 0
                28 July 2018 10: 33
                By the way, I would have thrown out this inner tube at all in place of Nikloss (which as a whole would have made the construction ... almost digestible). His tubes were 2, 3, 4 inches. In a 2-inch pipe, the inner tube for circulation is not needed at all: the slope for circulation is enough.
                The Niklosses stupidly imitated De Porrey’s scheme, where the inner tube is just needed because it is upright there (and without the inner tube, vibrations can develop)
                1. +1
                  30 July 2018 11: 24
                  Quote: AK64
                  By the way, I would have thrown this inner tube in place of Nikloss (in general, which would have made the construction ... almost digestible). His tubes were 2, 3, 4 inches. In a 2-inch pipe, the inner tube for circulation is not needed at all: the slope for circulation is enough.
                  The Niklosses stupidly imitated De Porrey’s scheme, where the inner tube is just needed because it is upright there (and without the inner tube, vibrations can develop)


                  Not quite so, the inner pipe is needed so that the steam passing in the outer pipe warms up the water passing through the inner pipe.
                  That is, with this arrangement of tubes there are a number of advantages - for example, heat transfer, lower heat loading of the tubes (of course, with proper operation).
                  The slope of the pipes in the boiler is needed to ensure that there is a natural pressure boost of water: less in the upper pipes, more in the lower rows.
                  1. 0
                    30 July 2018 11: 39
                    Thank you for explaining to me, otherwise without you? After all, I would walk in the dark

                    The slope is needed, first of all, so that the steam comes out naturally. In the pipe 2 "and above (in Nikloss boilers the outer pipes were 2", 3 ", and even seemingly higher), with its length 2.5 m, the inner pipe is unnecessary. And the common collector, steam-water, would be better. It would only work better, and 60% of the problems would disappear.

                    The Nikloss took the inner tube like De Porray. But there, due to the verticality of the pipes, it is, as it were, necessary for a stable water-steam-circulation. It is for this purpose - ensuring a stable water-vapor exchange, and this inner tube is there. But in a 2 "inclined pipe he would have been normal without it.
        2. +2
          27 July 2018 11: 31
          For a thermally deformable object, the second support cannot be embedded in a fixed seal - therefore, on the one hand, Nikloss has a hinged seal, and the second end of the boiler tube has a sliding seal that allows thermal expansion of the pipe (which is absolutely true and speaks of the high qualification of Nikloss engineers). The only thing they did not take into account was that a large thickness was needed for the lower row of pipes (due to high temperatures), they proposed an alternative to swap the upper and lower boiler pipes.

          By the way, the reason for the bursting pipes is quite understandable to me: it is often mentioned that the pipes "stuck" with the second end to the back cover of the boiler, that is, the circuit changed during improper operation (the second end of the seal became stationary - coked / stuck).
          This fundamentally changed the behavior of the tube. It was worth stopping the boiler several times, in which the second end of the tube was stuck - the tube experienced severe temperature deformations (from cooling - to rupture, from heating, to compression, which should have led to wall rupture and the faster, the less often the tube adhesion was checked and the more often this boiler was transferred from a working state to a non-working one.


          Mentioned "sagging" of the water pipes in Nikloss boilers indicates their overheating; accordingly, the accident rate could be overcome not only by increasing the wall thickness of the water pipes, but also by ensuring the free movement of the second end of the pipe in the seal of the rear wall of the boiler.
          But leaks at the joints of metal-metal (tube-collector) - this is an ineradicable defect - a miscalculation of designers.
          1. 0
            27 July 2018 18: 34
            For a thermally deformable object, the second support cannot be embedded in a fixed seal - therefore

            Don’t worry you are so ....
            I would put the lattice 50% long (preferably 3 lattices, 25, 50, 75%) and put tubes in it.

            But leaks at the joints of metal-metal (tube-collector) - this is an ineradicable defect - a miscalculation of designers.

            Above I posted a picture of De Porrey's boiler (from which the Nildosses were inspired): not the slightest problem with metal-to-metal. Because De Porray has the same pipe. (And, plus, presses it with pressure)

            And in Yarrow boilers (as well as in other 3-collector thin-tube ones) there was somehow no problem with metal-metal, as there were none of them in Belleville boilers.
            1. +1
              30 July 2018 09: 46
              Quote: AK64
              And in Yarrow boilers (as well as in other 3-collector thin-tube ones) there was somehow no problem with metal-metal, as there were none of them in Belleville boilers.


              Excerpt from the technical encyclopedia of 1924:


              Yarrow boiler (Fig. 96) is characterized by straight tubes; for the convenience of expanding the water tubes of dropsy. collectors were made non-circular. This caused abnormal deformations, and during prolonged forced work, a leak often appeared at the seams.
              . At the same time, this boiler is not repairable for "hot", unlike Nikloss
              http://samlib.ru/t/tonina_o_i/kotli_55.shtml
  9. +2
    26 July 2018 12: 25
    Thought I won’t wait wink
    good
  10. +3
    26 July 2018 14: 28
    Dear Andrew,
    Thank you for the continuation, analysis and presentation of facts, as always, on top. The question that you raised about boilers and machines manufactured by Kramp is very interesting, it is likely that on the Internet you can find information about the experience of their operation in the US Navy.
    1. 0
      26 July 2018 16: 34
      Greetings, dear colleague!
      Thanks for your kind words:)
      Quote: Comrade
      The question that you raised about boilers and machines manufactured by Kramp is very interesting, it is likely that on the Internet you can find information about the experience of their operation in the US Navy

      But as? About boilers - yes, of course, but about cars?
      1. +3
        27 July 2018 02: 14
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Thanks for your kind words:)

        Thank you. I admit, I look forward to any of your articles on the era of armor and steam.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        About boilers - yes, of course, but about cars?

        Dear colleague, I am not a very big connoisseur of the Kramp shipyard, so I apologize if something is wrong.
        There is such a list of products from his shipyard for which he received a prize from the US government, because the ship either showed a higher speed than in the contract, or the machines developed more power than in the contract. In brackets it is indicated what exactly.
        Yorktown (machine power) 39 825,00 $
        Baltimore (machine power) 106 441,00 $
        "Newark" (machine power) 36 857,00 $
        Philadelphia (speed) 100 000,00 $
        "New York" (speed) 200 000,00 $
        Columbia (speed) 300 000,00 $
        Minneapolis (speed) 414 600,0 $
        Indiana (speed) 50 000,00 $
        Massachusetts (speed) 100 000,00 $
        Iowa (speed) 217 420,00 $
        "Brooklyn" (speed) 350 000,00 $
        -----------
        Total 1 915 143,00 $

        Yes, I whipped up information about problems with Niklos's boilers in the western fleets, nothing came of it, but I came across an interesting fact. English battleship “Implacable” - Belleville boilers (or boiler) exploded twice, July 1905 and 16 August 1906
        1. +1
          27 July 2018 07: 40
          Quote: Comrade
          There is such a list of products of his shipyard for which he received a prize from the US government, because the ship either showed a higher speed than in the contract

          Well, yes, but what does this have to do with Varyag cars? :)
          Quote: Comrade
          English battleship “Implacable” - Belleville boilers (or boiler) exploded twice, July 1905 and 16 August 1906

          Yes, the British failed the late introduction of these boilers
          2 July 1905 year on the “Implacable” there was a boiler explosion. The reason for it was the launch of steam in the main steam pipe, in which there was water. At the same time, two sailors were killed, and several were injured. The commission of inquiry, having studied the circumstances of the case, found the engineer-captain of rank 3 and two engineer-lieutenants guilty of an emergency. The following year, on August 16, a boiler exploded at Implacable. Later it was recognized that its cause was overheating caused by the loss of feed water.

          Although the investigating commissions found explanations for each of this and similar cases, it was clear that the steam engines of these battleships were more or less reliable, but the boilers often failed. On average, the life of the boiler was about three years, depending on the intensity of use. But economizers and main steam pipelines needed to be constantly updated.

          Which once again indicates how much the boilers of the same design (but of different designs) can differ from each other
        2. 0
          27 July 2018 08: 35
          For example
    2. 0
      28 July 2018 19: 05
      Quote: Comrade
      it is likely that on the Internet you can find information about the experience of their operation in the US Navy.


      The EXPERIENCES WITH NICLAUSSE BOILERS ON THE USS NEVADA report was published in 1905.
  11. +3
    26 July 2018 14: 41
    hosted the "Varangian" E.N. Schensnovich, alas, could not achieve this from C. Crump.

    Civil law has not undergone significant changes since then, respectively, the commission had the right not to accept the defective ship or to introduce the discovered defects in the acceptance certificate for their subsequent elimination at the manufacturer’s expense, in addition, the buyer had the right to return the ship for revision within the warranty period or later if will prove that the malfunction occurred due to the fault of the manufacturer.
    I have never even seen a discussion of the possibility of contacting Kramp under warranty. Probably did not see serious manufacturing defects or suggested counter-arguments about violation of operating conditions.
    About knocks in the car and warming up the bearings. The problems creeping out on trials are one thing, but in a combat situation all this can be ignored for some time. Of course, a knock will lead to wear and subsequent destruction of the machine, but you can give the most complete for a few minutes, or even hours.
    1. +2
      26 July 2018 15: 09
      Sclerosis tells me that they could not accept the ship with a significant shortage of speed. (EMNIP if it will be less than 20 nodes)
      1. +1
        26 July 2018 15: 57
        You confuse the contract terms and the law. Shortage of maximum speed - the basis for refusal to accept the ship, prescribed in the contract.
        I’m talking about the fact that there is a norm at the level of the law that establishes the producer’s responsibility for the quality of goods and services. The Consumer Rights Act is not applicable to international transactions, but in addition to it, the Russian Federation has a civil code that sets out the rights and obligations of the seller and the buyer. In the USA, for certain, there is some similar document in the status of law. The general conditions of sale are unchanged almost from the time of the Roman Empire, in any case, in the XNUMXth century there were definitely no revolutionary changes.
        Accordingly, from the standpoint of the current legislation, the product may not be accepted due to the presence of significant deficiencies, regardless of whether it is provided for in the contract or not.
        1. +2
          27 July 2018 12: 34
          I'm talking about the fact that there is a norm at the level of law

          Are you sure that in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in the USA this norm was? As far as I remember, the Bill on Consumer Rights was adopted at the time of Kennedy in 1962.
          1. 0
            27 July 2018 16: 57
            98 percent :) 2 I leave for my primeval ignorance in the field of American law.
            These are not consumer rights, but the general terms and conditions of the contract of sale, which came to us from Roman law. Consumer rights are a much later institution and they govern the relations of individuals and manufacturers / sellers; accordingly, they are not applicable to the contract for the construction of a warship.
            Formally, the United States has a completely different legal system than the Russian Federation, but as practice shows, all of our basic laws have both a European and an American counterpart. The right thing is that it’s almost impossible to come up with something original.
    2. +2
      26 July 2018 16: 30
      Quote: MooH
      The problems creeping out on trials are one thing, but in a combat situation you can ignore all this for a while

      Sure you may. At risk of a car accident at any time.
      Quote: MooH
      I have never even seen a discussion of the possibility of contacting Kramp under warranty. Probably did not see serious manufacturing defects or suggested counter-arguments about violation of operating conditions.

      Firstly, it is completely unknown what was prescribed there under the contract with this guarantee. Secondly, it is obvious that Crump would try to blame all the problems for improper exploitation, and who would act as an arbiter in the MIT dispute against Crump? Third, and the meaning of such treatment? Russia needed a cruiser, and not a year and a half of his absence from the fleet, which would have happened if he had been sent to the United States. Fourth - in fact, ours finally figured out what was wrong with Varyag after the work of the engineer Gippius (before that it was assumed that the malfunctions were relatively small and could be fixed on their own). That is, the cruiser was handed over to the fleet in 1901, but they realized what was wrong with it in 1903 - Are you sure that the guarantee is still valid?
      1. 0
        26 July 2018 18: 07
        who would be the arbiter in the MIT dispute against Crump?

        Arbitration court at the place of registration persons of the defendant, unless otherwise provided by the contract.
        Third, and the meaning of such treatment?

        Money has not bothered anyone.
        but realized what was wrong with him in 1903

        This is a rather serious argument. For such cases, the statute of limitations is provided, in addition, you yourself write that quite serious troubles began even before acceptance ;-)
        I suspect that Krump’s reputational losses during the termination of the contract and the return of the cruiser would be such that, realizing the possibility of such an outcome, he would hardly have allowed the trial to be reported in newspapers.
        1. MPN
          +2
          26 July 2018 20: 43
          Quote: MooH
          I suspect that Krump's reputational losses during the judicial termination of the contract and the return of the cruiser would be such that, realizing the possibility of such an outcome, he would hardly have allowed the trial to be covered in newspapers.

          Service the equipment at an authorized dealer ... wink
          1. +2
            26 July 2018 22: 44
            For cars, this is enshrined in the contract of sale and warranty conditions set forth in the service book. You do not just need to sign it when you buy it. Where is such a requirement for ships contained?
            By the way, in the USA, at the level of federal law, a manufacturer is forbidden to demand car service from a dealer or to motivate a refusal of a guarantee by non-dealer service.
  12. +1
    26 July 2018 15: 59
    Quote: novel xnumx
    ©

    I’ll say a little differently: you need to take off your hat to the mechanics on the first parachutes. The conditions were hellish and ALL for the first time
  13. +3
    26 July 2018 17: 13
    No, I knew that Varyag had problems with the EU, but I never thought that everything was SO hardcore. Against this background, even the “goddesses” look more attractive - they didn’t even run according to their passport, and their artillery is weaker, but there are so many problems with machinery ...
    1. +3
      26 July 2018 18: 54
      Quote: arturpraetor
      No, I knew that Varyag had problems with the EU, but I never thought that everything was SO hardcore

      Voooot! That’s why I’m spreading the story about Varyag’s EU already which article :)))) If, dear colleague, even you are not completely up to date, you can imagine how this is perceived by most fans of the history of the Navy.
  14. +2
    26 July 2018 17: 46
    Good evening Andrey from Chelyabinsk. Respect to you for your work on writing entire cycles of articles on different ships! But somewhat embarrassed by some understatement and streamlining in the conclusions. And the conclusion, it seems to me unequivocal, is in the first place Kramp is to blame for the troubles with the Varyag EU, and in the second admission committee of the Russians that signed the acceptance, essentially not yet a ready-made cruiser, that everything that was possible was not squeezed out of the cars during the tests. A contract was signed with Kramp for the construction of ships; the customer fulfilled his part of the contract — he paid a lot of money, and in turn, Kramp was obliged to fulfill his part of the contract — to correct all the identified malfunctions during the tests. But this was not done - it speaks only of one thing - the scammer of the customer and receiving money at all costs is Kramp's policy. By the way, Retvizan did not reach the contract speed during the tests, although he was only from the factory and the factory team squeezed out everything that they could squeeze out of the cars. And the comparison in the day-to-day operation of the cruiser and the battleship is not correct — Retvizan had a handicap, as the battleship in the squadron was set to speed at Sevastopol rather than Pobeda or Tsesarevich. And his cars were operated in a generous mode of 13-15 knots. But the Varangian is a completely different matter, a cruiser without speed is a target. And congenital "heart disease" entirely on the conscience of Kramp.
    1. +1
      27 July 2018 01: 07
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      Good evening Andrey from Chelyabinsk. Respect to you for your work on writing entire cycles of articles on different ships!

      Thank you, dear Oleg!
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      But somewhat embarrassed by some understatement and streamlining in the conclusions.

      The fact is that for final conclusions you need to know what exactly was written verbatim in the contract, but I do not know this. And taking into account how the contract was drawn up, I would not be surprised if Schensnovich had no legal grounds to force Kramp to continue the tests after the contract speed was shown.
      Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
      By the way, Retvisan did not reach the contract speed during testing, although he was only from the factory and the factory team squeezed out everything that they could squeeze out of the cars.

      The funny thing is that it’s not a fact - it seems that Schensnovich just rested. The fact is that he entered in the protocol the achievement of 17,99 knots, but the trick is that at that time there were no devices that guaranteed similar accuracy of measurements :))) That is, 17,99 could easily be, for example, 18,01 knots, or vice versa, 17,98 knots :))))
      1. 0
        28 July 2018 01: 11
        I won’t be surprised if Schensnovich had no legal grounds to force Kramp to continue the trials

        It would be nice to read the contract. Do you have any ideas where to get the English text?
  15. +4
    26 July 2018 21: 39
    Good article from the series - Respect to the author. It turns out that the cars are so bad that the actual battle can no longer be considered - what Rudnev did just saved the RIF from further expenses :))))
    Just kidding, of course, because he could serve as a gunboat, in this aspect, the results of the artillery duel in Chemulpo are interesting.
  16. +3
    27 July 2018 01: 27
    The beating of Kramp with the Niklosses, planned from the first article, is proceeding as planned laughing
    Unfortunately, the author writes great in other cycles, this does not specifically give the scoundrels any chance of justification lol
    And in flogging these rascals wink there was no room for different subtleties, somehow such a disgusting repair of the cruiser in Port Arthur that the authorities rightly noticed that the repair of the cruiser’s performance only worsened, as already mentioned above.
    The wild staff turnover on Varyag passed unnoticed as well - from the first staff with Rudnev there were practically no officers left - and this was for some three years (there were reasons for that).
    And there is much more that was previously written about, including how the author gracefully circumvented the problem that steam pressure below that prescribed by the plant (which is beyond doubt) automatically led to machine breakdowns, and there was no need to look for an explanation like " it seems to me that the Kramp factory, in a hurry to hand over the cruiser, did not manage to reconcile the steam distribution; the car quickly got upset "- why do we need guesses if there is an iron fact, the work of the machines was broken by the team, and this fact alone is enough ..
    Violation of the steam distribution is determined not by guesses, but by facts, something like “the spool of the steam inlet of the right engine does not open at the top dead center of the high pressure cylinder” - this would be a fact for discussion, and not a guess “by itself”
    There is no doubt that Nikloss boilers are not of the most successful design and require much more qualified service than other types of boilers.
    And they worked normally on Retvisan, however, the author stated that no historians have studied this.
    It is difficult to understand who these "historians" should be.
    Must they publish their monographs in Scopus peer-reviewed journals? It is unlikely that at least a third of the material is based on Melnikov, but somehow it is not observed in Scopus.
    Is this author worse than Melnikov?

    Here's how he rates Retvisan boilers
    the accident when moving from the USA to Russia made the commander and mechanical engineer more closely monitor the state of the power plant, and with proper care, the Nikloss boilers worked quite well

    And what is this historian not suitable forfeel

    Why not honestly admit that the technical problems of the Varangian were determined by a whole complex of reasons, not just by Kramp and the Nikloss, and finally go to a battle in which neither the car nor the cruiser boilers failed? smile
    1. +3
      27 July 2018 07: 33
      Quote: Avior
      And what is this historian not suitable for

      15 collectors ordered abroad :)))))
      Quote: Avior
      that the steam pressure is below the factory prescribed

      Can you show the prescription? No, well, I understand that
      Quote: Avior
      which is beyond doubt

      this, of course, is still an argument, but I would have a document in which it was written :)
      Quote: Avior
      Is this author worse than Melnikov?

      The fact that his "Retvisan" is a very general, and, alas, shallow monograph.
      1. +3
        27 July 2018 09: 22
        Yeah, but in the article the pressure drop is not in doubt wink
        Sheshnovich then what did not fit? No, well, unhistorical, but it seems like he should know something about Retvisan :)
        Yes, and the second monograph cited describes in more detail what is happening with Retvisan than the conclusion that the order "in reserve", by analogy with Varyag, parts that are problematic for ordering for suppliers, is the most common thing and does not in itself speak of Retvisan's problems.
        There are other works on Retwizan, but if they are arbitrarily evaluated, no one will do, and it turns out that it is not worth bringing them. A practical approach :) But Melnikov’s obvious bias in the robot - is it also deleted?
        Andrei, maybe I am not writing in detail due to lack of time, I just can’t spend so much of it.
        But I’ll try one question to write my opinion in more detail. Your conclusion is that the fault of the Varangian problems was the steam distribution that was incorrectly adjusted at the Kramp plant — all the more, it seems that you are the first to offer such an explanation.
        So, is a violation of steam distribution able to lead to rapid wear of machines? Of course, even as possible, due to improper steam supply, shock loads arise in the machine, which leads to wear of the pistons, cylinders of the connecting rods, bearings, etc.
        If we draw an analogy with the internal combustion engine, it’s like improperly adjusted timing valves and an incorrectly set ignition - many owners of carburetor cars have encountered this.
        But look at the problem from the other side.
        Kramp receives a contract, the text of which is unknown to us, but some of its provisions are known - for failure to provide technical indicators, primarily speed, a large fine, for failure to meet the terms of the contract, a smaller fine.
        Maybe Crump didn’t take this seriously? Still seriously, Nikloss insisted on boilers, and spent the extra money on cars of greater power - the money was actually from his profit.
        And after that, he, presumably, is careless in adjusting the operation of the machine.
        Well, maybe he doesn’t give a damn about the durability of the machines and, consequently, the reputation of the company (which in itself is also doubtful, it is not a one-day company, a huge shipyard with a large number of orders, why should it undermine its reputation?). But he doesn’t give a damn about possible fines?
        Despite the fact that the violation of steam distribution affects not only the durability of the machine, but also, first of all, the developed power, reduces efficiency and, naturally, leads to a decrease in the maximum speed - and it fights for it by all means, overpaying for the machine as well.
        To overpay for a car to ensure high speed- and then adjust it crookedly? What for?!
        At the time of leaving the factory, it was not so much the Russian side that was interested in the correct adjustment of the steam distribution, but Kramp himself!
        For it was this that ensured maximum speed, for which Kramp fought with all his might.
        Of course, it can be purely theoretically assumed that, despite Krump’s extreme interest in the correct regulation of steam distribution, the company nevertheless made such a jamb, but this assumption, in my opinion, requires much more justification than the argument “by itself guesses”.
        The description of Varyag’s use, for a number of reasons, is perhaps one of the most complete in Russian maritime history; it is replete with technical details, but real evidence of the specific alleged flaw, and not the hunch of the person who studied the issue “on a voluntary basis”, he had a completely different work, I have not seen.
        PS In any case, in general, I consider your series of articles on the Varyag to be useful and interesting, including against the background of the work of Melnikov, who clearly sins with tendentiousness in many cases.
        Although, in your cycle, in my opinion, there is a noticeable influence of Melnikov’s famous book, your cycle covers the topic much more comprehensively, and may be the basis for others who want to study specific issues in more depth - I hope we will see such articles hi
        1. 0
          27 July 2018 09: 39
          Sorry, I saw several typos, but they are no longer being fixed. I have to read as is smile
        2. +2
          27 July 2018 10: 04
          At the time of leaving the factory, it was not so much the Russian side that was interested in the correct adjustment of the steam distribution, but Kramp himself!
          For it was this that ensured maximum speed, for which Kramp fought with all his might.

          It is easiest to adjust a machine with spools (and indeed with valves) to one mode (one RPM). Pile spool (and valve) timing that would be ideal at any speed is impossible in principle. It is as if obvious, no?
          Usually the solution is a compromise between so that everywhere it is at least satisfactory (there is no "bad" anywhere). But Crump could have shifted this optimum so that the optimum would be in the high-speed zone.

          This hypothesis (yes, the hypothesis) completely fits into your, My Dear Sir, argument.
          1. 0
            27 July 2018 12: 17
            Pile spool (and valve) timing that would be ideal at any speed is impossible in principle

            I absolutely agree with you.
          2. 0
            28 July 2018 10: 13
            not really.
            In order to take into account the change in speed, in addition to adjusting the spools (or valves), there are other methods.
            for internal combustion engines, this will be the so-called ignition timing regulator - centrifugal or vacuum, or both together.
            For the same purpose, in the steam engine serves the creation of excess pressure at the outlet of the boiler.
            On Varangian it was.
        3. +1
          27 July 2018 10: 07
          Quote: Avior
          Yeah, but in the article the pressure drop is not in doubt

          let's not interfere in one pile "ponies, people, and volleys of thousands of guns." The article indicates the fact of a decrease in pressure below a safe threshold for Varyag machines. There is no evidence that Varyag sailors were aware of this threshold. There is no evidence that Crump himself knew about this. But there is a fact - if for steam engines of those years maintaining steam at the 15,4 atm level would be the norm established by the rule, then Gippius would obviously have written like this, accusing the cruiser engine command of violating the order of operation of the machines, but he did not. It follows that no such norm existed.
          Quote: Avior
          And the above second monograph describes in more detail what is happening with Retvisan

          Throw, the transition to the Far East there is given to the power of one and a half paragraph.
          Quote: Avior
          There are other works on Retvisan, but if you arbitrarily evaluate them

          Name at least one that parses the issues of Retvisan EU better than Balakin. Which, one might say, does not parse them at all :))) Balakin does not even indicate the order of 15 collectors, he has everything in order. And the fact that it was a completely force majeure order, which the MTK authorized only because of extreme necessity (it was forbidden to make such orders from foreign manufacturers) is nothing. Normally, everything was with Retvisan boilers - and that’s all :)))
          Quote: Avior
          Moreover, the violation of steam distribution affects not only the durability of the machine, but, first of all, the developed power, reduces efficiency and, naturally, leads to a decrease in maximum speed

          ??? On the contrary, it was optimized for working at high speeds, but it worked poorly at low speeds, so your argument ... is a bit strange :))) It was the desire to “pull up” the speed that made the machine design more ... heavy designed for more power than the boilers could give. That is, the car was not sharpened for current operation, but for afterburner. Crump did everything to show contract speed, so saying that his cars didn’t get her completely wrong.
          1. 0
            27 July 2018 16: 39
            [/ quote] There is no evidence that Krump himself knew about this. [quote]

            Mascara, at least knock on granite!
            Andrew! The machine is designed for the corresponding vapor pressure in the first, second and subsequent cylinders. From here is the desired pressure in the expander, and from the latter, the minimum specification pressure in the boiler (s). The latter is written in the corresponding document (according to the present, the “manual”), which is why it was known to Gippius and of course the ship’s mechanics. Based on this, Gippius also concludes that the cause of the breakdown of the machine is the lack of pressure to the specification.
            1. 0
              27 July 2018 17: 03
              but the juvenile hamlo ...
              \ and shook his head \
              1. 0
                28 July 2018 15: 49
                Quote: AK64
                but the juvenile hamlo ...
                \ and shook his head \

                On the topic, you can’t say anything intelligible, so go to the individual. Typical position for hamlo-stapler.
            2. +1
              27 July 2018 19: 07
              Quote: Jura 27
              Andrew!

              Yura, did you decide to take it on your chest on Friday? Just do not meddle in kissing, please.
              Quote: Jura 27
              The machine is designed for the corresponding vapor pressure in the first, second and subsequent cylinders. From here is the desired pressure in the expander, and from the latter, the minimum specification pressure in the boiler (s). The latter is written in the relevant document

              No question, where is this document, Billy? I say that he was not there. You say that it was. Well, bring him to an amazed audience
              1. +1
                28 July 2018 15: 59
                I’m not Brezhnev and I don’t belong to the LGBT community, so I don’t kiss men even under a big glass. drinks
                Your word is against mine, but the logic is behind me: otherwise all the chief masters would have to calculate the specification pressure of steam when receiving ships from the factories, which is utter stupidity. Based on the first part of my phrase, Crump is innocent, from the word at all, for you have no evidence other than your word.
                And one more question remains for you, backfill: where do the authors of monographs on ships get the specification steam pressure in boilers, in the expander, in different cylinders of the steam engine and their sizes? I hope you do not say that they, like Gippius, calculate the corresponding vapor pressure?
          2. 0
            28 July 2018 10: 22
            Most of the works on Retvisan in one way or another go back to the memoirs of Sablin and Schasnovich, who in these matters were head and shoulders more competent than any historian.
            Therefore, it cannot be said that there was no detailed work on Retvisan.
            As for optimizing the machine for high speeds, it is achieved by increasing the steam pressure at the outlet of the boiler, which was done at Varyag.
            From the contract, Crump was required, in addition to high speed, to provide the range with an economic course.
            1. 0
              28 July 2018 10: 26
              not right clicked.
              Sheshnovich, an eyelid.
              Crump would not be able to provide the range with an economic move, if the spools were designed for the maximum stroke, the steam pressure would have to be reduced below the nominal, which was clearly not.
            2. +2
              28 July 2018 10: 40
              The amount of steam per cylinder can be changed:
              1. Change in time (this is simplified, in fact, this time is associated with the angle of rotation of the PM shaft) when the input spool is in the open state.
              2. By changing the cross section of the input spool.
              3. By changing the position of the throttle inlet.
              4. The creation of an excess supply of pressure at the inlet.


              Kramp was not a fool and an ignoramus in PM, he did not need to optimize the car for high speeds with methods 1 and 2, if there are common methods 3 and 4, which were used on the Varyag.
              Actually, as you remember, the version is talking about the fact that the steam distribution is INCORRECTLY configured, and not that it is optimized for high speeds.
              1. +1
                28 July 2018 18: 43
                Kramp was not a fool and an ignoramus in PM, he did not need to optimize the car for high speeds with methods 1 and 2, if there are common methods 3 and 4, which were used on the Varyag.

                In fact, there are no options 3 and 4. Option 4 is not easy, but option 3 is used on any ship, and could not give an additional benefit.

                Actually, as you remember, the version is talking about the fact that the steam distribution is INCORRECTLY configured, and not that it is optimized for high speeds.
                If this optimization is such that at low speed the LP cylinders become parasitic, then the steam distribution is just wrong.
              2. +3
                30 July 2018 10: 31
                Quote: Avior
                The amount of steam per cylinder can be changed:
                1. Change in time (this is simplified, in fact, this time is associated with the angle of rotation of the PM shaft) when the input spool is in the open state.
                2. By changing the cross section of the input spool.
                3. By changing the position of the throttle inlet.
                4. The creation of an excess supply of pressure at the inlet.


                Kramp was not a fool and an ignoramus in PM, he did not need to optimize the car for high speeds with methods 1 and 2, if there are common methods 3 and 4, which were used on the Varyag.
                Actually, as you remember, the version is talking about the fact that the steam distribution is INCORRECTLY configured, and not that it is optimized for high speeds.


                Absolutely to the point - you correctly noticed that the steam distribution is configured to receive high speed and correctly indicated the possibility of increasing this speed.
                Operation at low speeds.

                Andrei, due to the lack of technical education, the problem of a high-speed machine built at the Kramp plant, connects not with its inappropriate operation (by the team and in the home port, which did not have the technical ability to properly service it), but with the quality of the machine itself.
          3. 0
            28 July 2018 16: 27
            Machines and boilers are fully consistent with each other. There was no "heavy" car.
          4. +3
            30 July 2018 10: 43
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Balakin does not even indicate the order of 15 collectors, everything is in order with him. And the fact that it was a completely force majeure order, which the MTK authorized only because of extreme necessity (it was forbidden to make such orders from foreign manufacturers) is nothing. Normally, everything was with Retvisan boilers - and that’s all :)))


            Andrey - you are not looking for a problem there again. Not understanding the rationing of military supplies.
            Fifteen collectors were ordered abroad because there was no sense, due to such an insignificant amount of rather complicated parts, to block production.
            Therefore, all domestic manufacturers “otmazatsya" - this "not earn."
            Preparation for production will require much more costs than buying this small batch of collectors abroad. Which was done by MTK. And at the same time, machine bearings that could not be reproduced in Port Arthur due to which Varyag machines could not develop the initial speed and the cruiser lost speed ..

            Based on the replacement of 5-7 collectors per year, it didn’t make sense to fence domestic production at all.
            Why 5-7 collectors - wrote below - the batch was delivered from six months to a year, so 15 collectors are designed for 2-3 years of operation or from the present need + for a year or two in advance.
          5. +2
            30 July 2018 10: 54
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The article indicates the fact of a decrease in pressure below a safe threshold for Varyag machines. There is no evidence that Varyag sailors were aware of this threshold. There is no evidence that Crump himself knew about this. But there is a fact - if for steam engines of those years maintaining steam at the level of 15,4 atm would be the norm established by the rule, then Gippius obviously would have written like this, accusing the cruiser’s machine command of violating the order of operation of the machines, but he didn’t did. It follows that no such norm existed.


            Why did you decide so Andrew?
            There are run-up indicators of the working pressure at which the machines are operational.
            They are indicated on the pressure gauges of the machine.
      2. +2
        30 July 2018 10: 23
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        15 collectors ordered abroad


        What's wrong with this - an export contract for the supply of parts is executed from 3 months to six months, depending on the queue and complexity + 3 months transportation period (port-ship transshipment, compilation of a bill of lading, transportation itself for a month and a half, again ship-to-port transshipment , the warehouse, and the ships then went much less frequently to the required ports - that is, such an order was executed from six months to a year, and accordingly, the suppliers of that period ordered the necessary list for 2-3 years in advance - that is, 15 collectors are the planned consumption rates from 5 to 7 pcs per year - not an enchanting amount at all, not saying anything about the quality of the boilers.
        1. +3
          30 July 2018 15: 59
          Dmitry Vladimirovich, an urgent request - read carefully the sources.
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          an export contract for the supply of parts is executed from 3 months to six months, depending on the queue and complexity + 3 months

          R.M. Melnikov explicitly said that the delivery time of the order is 14 weeks :)) Please note - not production, but delivery :)
          Therefore, there can be no talk of any years and no “deliveries for many years to come”. Moreover, all sorts of talk about supposedly all this for 2-3 years ahead obviously breaks down on the fact that at the time of the conclusion of the contract for 30 collectors for the Varangian, the cruiser required the replacement of 40. Accordingly, in order to order collectors at 2-3 of the year, it was necessary to order not 30, but 80-120 for the Varangian
          1. +3
            30 July 2018 16: 39
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            R.M. Melnikov explicitly said that the delivery time of the order is 14 weeks :)) Please note - not production, but delivery :)


            This is again that you can’t really imagine the work of the financial, logistics and business chains of that time Andrey :)

            The SAUER-DANFOSS serial pump is enough for me from Europe to Moscow for 18 weeks! At the same time, the car runs in time only 3 days - the rest of the production (30 days) and customs procedures ...

            I do not think that a hundred years ago, logistics was better :)))
            Despite the fact that the main transportation is bulk cargo in the hold of a commercial vessel. Which then was many times less than now.

            I doubt very much that Nikloss had 15 collectors “in stock” in stock — excuse me, capitalism, where the goods in the warehouse are frozen (non-working) working capital.

            So the figure of 14 days and now from the realm of fiction is either a mistake, or under the contract, the delivery of the supplier’s ex-warehouse or ex-factory - that is, without delivery to the port, loading of customs procedures, transshipment, unloading and most likely - at best after sea ​​transportation, and there is also a train to Port Arthur via Transnsib with its 1-gauge capacity.
            Even now, cargo from Dalian goes for 20 days in a container by train to Chelyabinsk (half way), and by sea to St. Petersburg - 30-45 days.

            Given the fact that the electronic bank transfer system did not exist then - write: signing a contract - a month, a month for the transfer of funds (although it was possible to bring a bank bill - then from two weeks to 1 month). I think with a maximum of agility of the parties, 14 days of production would have spilled from 4 months to six months to Port Arthur.

            Do not believe the numbers - they are written by people who have never had anything to do with international contracts and transportation :)))

            Well, of course, if I saw in the contract not the ex works, but the delivery of 14 days, at least the wall of the port of St. Petersburg - I would be very amazed and would take off my hat to Niclausse! Since in our time - such logistics speeds only by plane :)
            And then the urgent delivery by plane is now 3 weeks - a week from the warehouse of the plant to Beijing + waiting for the board + customs ...
            1. +1
              30 July 2018 16: 50
              I'm still wildly sorry, but it was about 14 weeks, not 14 days what
              1. +1
                31 July 2018 10: 09
                Quote: arturpraetor
                I'm still wildly sorry, but it was about 14 weeks, not 14 days what


                Yes - did not finish.

                14 weeks without specifying the basis of delivery in the contract.
                The essence of the matter does not change usually the manufacturer gives EXW a basis - an ex-factory or an ex-warehouse.
                So by 14 weeks (98 days) add logistics 60 days by sea. If this is logistics to St. Petersburg, then from there, by train to Port Arthur, it’s 30-50 days - a total of 188-200 days, the delivery time to Port Arthur would be if the businessmen were engaged in this. And for the military of that time, the period could increase by 50% (from transshipment to the passage of documents by authorities, the supply of rolling stock, etc.).
                Accordingly, I believe that an urgent need + annual expense was ordered.
            2. 0
              30 July 2018 23: 39
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              This is again that you can’t really imagine the work of the financial, logistics and business chains of that time Andrey :)

              The SAUER-DANFOSS serial pump is enough for me from Europe to Moscow for 18 weeks!

              You can not continue further. Of course, if you are driven to a pump, then where else at the beginning of the 20 century should be something else.
              But in general, the delivery time of the 14 WEEKS collectors is pretty close to the voiced 18 weeks :)))
              1. +1
                31 July 2018 02: 22
                I wrote a lengthy post about deliveries and of course accidentally reloaded the page before publication. Oh woe to me, woe. I will not completely recover, I want to sleep.
                Short:
                1. A supply contract may be deemed to be executed upon the transfer of goods to a warehouse in the country of departure. Hence the unrealistically short time.
                2. Transportation by sea is a very long task, even now. With an increase in cargo flow and ship speed at times.
                3. The order procedure itself - a minimum of 3-4 months, really six months. There is no connection except almost a telegraph + bureaucratic procedure in St. Petersburg. You can’t order it directly.
                4. The plant will make 45 collectors for months. It is unlikely that his entire warehouse is pushed with suitable casting molds and there are no other more urgent orders.

                Recently, for nearly 50 days, a tablet battery was waiting from the United States, HP was very apologizing for breaking the law, but could not bring it faster.
                A friend of 6 months was waiting for body parts for a Honda from Japan by sea. And all this in St. Petersburg, not Port Arthur.
                Try in Chelyabinsk to write out the door from the el fireplace, for example, by sending a request to the GM representative via paper mail. I even allow you to pay it through Western Union, and not to disrupt financing from the Ministry of Transport of the Russian Federation :)))
              2. +1
                31 July 2018 10: 17
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                But in general, the delivery time of the 14 WEEKS collectors is pretty close to the voiced 18 weeks :)))


                Forgive my carelessness :)
                All attention to work :))
                The suppliers are delaying there .. there the customer indicates the wrong node number according to the catalog ... there the logisticians violate the deadlines ... the customs pulls the bagpipe - all the same problems as 100 years ago :)))
                Is it possible now that everything can be quickly agreed upon through Viber Skype?

                14 weeks is more like the term for the production of castings - it means the contract was on an ex works basis (ex warehouse). That is, logistics and the risks of logistics at the buyer are common practice then and now.
                1. 0
                  31 July 2018 16: 14
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  The suppliers are delaying there .. there the customer indicates the wrong node number according to the catalog ... there the logisticians violate the deadlines ... the customs pulls the bagpipe - all the same problems as 100 years ago :)))

                  Not certainly in that way. You see, dear colleague, IMHO, you are still not quite right. The fact is that everything that you describe really has and has taken place in reality .... For ordinary orders, carried out in the usual manner for ordinary customers. If the order came from large state structures - no matter from which state - then the question became not only a matter of money, but also a matter of prestige and self-promotion. So the Russian fleet made an order with the American plant for components, and it was required to deliver them in a short time. The customer office is serious, nowhere more serious. Fulfill such an order, delivering the necessary items in the specified short time — this is to show yourself from the best side and make a great advertisement of your own capabilities - they say, look how we can, quickly and decisively, order from us! Likewise, by hook or by crook, shipbuilders tried to build export warships quickly, squeezing out the maximum possible on trials, while for ordinary customers, building was not so fast, sometimes poor, and even tested this case without much fanaticism. And according to the concepts of that time, the implementation of such an order is almost the best advertisement of all possible. And when the company has a direct interest in fulfilling such deadlines, then most of the problems you have indicated ceases to be relevant, because they are solved very quickly. By methods (even minus the money if you need to give a bribe at customs or order a quick transport with a responsible captain for fast delivery), but not ordinary, as the order is special. Factories can even go to "extras" - overtime work, with the corresponding additional payment to workers, in order to produce the ordered components as quickly as possible. Actually, I have repeatedly met references to such orders from government agencies to private owners, which were carried out and delivered as soon as possible, because the customer needed it, and the manufacturer took up the matter on the same prestige issues, and I see nothing impossible in 14 weeks, more that it is about what is already in production.
    2. +1
      27 July 2018 09: 39
      Good morning Avior. But it doesn’t seem like a clear contradiction to you — to raise the pairs — the machines work acceptable, but the problems begin in the boilers, you reduce the pressure — the boilers are more or less normal, and the cars go into the runoff, some kind of vicious and vicious circle. Yes, and how much coal did Varyag need in this case, if only increased pressure in the cylinders is acceptable to him?
      1. +1
        27 July 2018 10: 02
        When designing a steam engine, it is calculated for a certain steam pressure at the inlet, but the boiler must give this pressure with a certain margin, depending on the speed, the higher the speed, the greater the margin. This is necessary for normal operation, the pressure in the cylinders does not directly depend on this, the speed of the machine is regulated not by pressure, but by the amount of steam supplied to the cylinders in each cycle. (this is like the type of gasoline in your gas tank, if the engine is designed for 95, then with a filled 76 most likely there will be problems)
        According to the project, all this was also provided for on the Varyag, but when the tubes began to burst, the safety valves were set to a relatively low pressure.
        1. +1
          27 July 2018 11: 46
          the speed of the machine is regulated not by pressure, but by the amount of steam supplied to the cylinders in each cycle

          This debate we have already led, the amount of steam per beat constant (depending on working volume and spool adjustment), the machine is controlled pressure, which you yourself confirm by writing below:
          ... but when the tubes began to burst, the safety valves were set to a relatively low pressure.

          rather than "quantity"))). Perhaps you have such a failure, because the amount of steam from the boiler is on the other side of the coin. Indeed, when the car accelerates through increasing the pressure (after the gearbox) of the supplied steam, the machine first increases the speed, the consumption (quantity) of steam increases and if the boilers do not provide it, the pressure drops and the speed too ..
          In general, you are right that the combination of these boilers on the one hand, and machines sharpened (pressure distribution between the cylinders) at maximum power form an insoluble dilemma.
          1. +1
            27 July 2018 16: 18
            [/ quote] the machine is controlled by pressure [quote] [/ b],

            No, the machine is controlled by the amount of steam (mainly), and the pressure should not be lower than the specification.
            You can of course increase the pressure, then the power will increase, but this is already an afterburner, with all the negative consequences.
            T.O. "Varangian" could go at an economic speed, relatively speaking, on 4-6 boilers, the main thing is that the pressure in each boiler should be no lower than the specification (to get more power and speed, additional boilers were launched). Illiterate operation consisted in lowering the pressure below the required, which led to a pressure in the fourth cylinder below the required there and, as a result, to a disruption in the kinematics of the machine.
            1. 0
              27 July 2018 19: 05
              No, the car is driven of steam (mainly), and pressure should not be lower than specification.

              Here again! Now Yura is making new physics. What method did you open to regulate (change) the amount of steam to the machine at unchanged pressure?
              1. +1
                28 July 2018 10: 55
                What method did you open to regulate (change) the amount of steam to the machine at a constant pressure?


                Anwar, "constant pressure" ideally in the boiler. And the method you are asking about is a banal steam valve ("reducer", damper, throttle finally, if in modern terminology), which regulates the amount of steam supplied to the machine. The pressure in the boiler (ideally) is constant --- and in the car there is already quantity. And there are no contradictions here.
                It's just more convenient for engineering calculations, that's all.
                Physically, the relationship between pressure and quantity is over - but it’s more convenient for engineers to proceed from the constant pressure in the boiler and the amount of steam in the machine
                1. 0
                  28 July 2018 11: 41
                  And the method you are asking about is a banal steam valve (“gear”, damper, throttle finally, if in modern terminology), which already regulates the amount of steam supplied to the machine.

                  Yes, steam faucet. It is through it that the power and speed of the PM are regulated ("operatively"). The fact is that he changes (reduces) the pressure after himself and hence the number. Think for yourself: the steam line (pipe) is a constant section. There is no physical way to pump (pump) more steam at the same pressure.
                  The greater is the force developed on the piston is proportional to its area and pressure a pair, i.e. for acceleration, it is necessary to increase the pressure, and the number (volume) of steam will increase with increasing speed, i.e. the break of cylinder filling (constant slave. volume!) per unit of time.
                  Physically, the connection between pressure and quantity is over - but it’s more convenient for engineers ......

                  Probably in this there is a misunderstanding.
                  1. 0
                    28 July 2018 13: 01
                    Anwar, do not confuse “reality” with the engineering calculation method, which is inevitably based on a number of assumptions.
                    Yes, steam faucet. It is through it that the power and speed of the PM are regulated ("operatively"). The fact is that he changes (reduces) the pressure after himself and hence the number.

                    No, it does not. And This is the first assumption: the crane conditionally stands at the entrance to the VD spool. The hole is different - but the pressure is the same. Further, it is assumed (this is the first of the convenient assumptions) that the pressures at any speed in each element of the machine are the same.
                    Once again: this is all a system of convenient engineering assumptions. And it means that all processes are considered slow in comparison with the gas dynamics inside the machine.


                    Think for yourself: the steam line (pipe) is a constant section. There is no physical way to pump (pump) more steam at the same pressure.

                    There is: the input is equal to the output, then the pressure inside is constant. This is again an assumption in the calculation. And, Naturally, at the limit of the boiler's steam production, this is not true. But when calculating the boundary values ​​are not considered: the boiler does not cope --- well, it will not mean, that's all. .

                    The greater is the force developed on the piston is proportional to its area and vapor pressure, i.e. to accelerate, you need to increase the pressure,

                    Here! You mentioned the word overclock. But the trick is that everything mentioned by your boorish opponent is just and only about stationary mode. This technique does not consider dynamic (non-stationary, accelerating) processes, assuming that acceleration is a slow transition through a series of stationary states. ("Stationary" here = "at constant speed")

                    There is probably a misunderstanding in this.

                    Naturally.
                    It’s just (1) your hamovy interlocutor does not know how to explain, and (2) he himself confuses the engineering calculation method (based on a system of assumptions) with the real physics of the process.
                    1. 0
                      29 July 2018 10: 07
                      Anzar, I'm sorry that I blindly misinterpreted your name.
              2. +1
                28 July 2018 16: 15
                Stop making "scientific discoveries"! In your opinion, for "Varyag" one boiler is enough - if the pressure is one atm., Then the speed is 1 knot, if ten atm., Then 10 knots, and if 24 atm., Then the speed is 24 knots?
                Read at last, some textbook and do not write nonsense.
                If you read laziness, then think about why there are 6 boilers involved in an economic vehicle, 16 for boilers, and 30 boilers for a full run. And the pressure is the same in boilers for all modes, but the amount of steam is different and, accordingly, the power of the machines and speed are different.
                Not if the machine is single-cylinder, then it is possible to change the steam pressure, then the power will change due to a change in the pressure of gas forces on the piston, but if the PM is four-cylinder,
                and the vapor pressure is below the minimum allowable, then in the fourth cylinder the piston does not push the crankshaft, but the "knee" pushes the piston, upsetting all the kinematics of the machine, distorting the "knee", which was on the "Varyag".
                1. 0
                  28 July 2018 17: 37
                  Stop make "scientific discoveries" ! In your opinion, for "Varyag" one boiler is enough, - if the pressure is one atm., Then the speed is 1 knot, if ten atm., Then 10 knots,

                  Colleague Jura, is it for me? And where did they (read) come up with? UTB you open new physics)))
                  ... think about why, when the economic vehicle is used, conditionally 6 boilers, when cruising - 16, and at full speed all 30 boilers

                  Apparently you can’t think about what kind of TURNS of the steam engine at these speeds? And the accumulation (quantity) of steam associated with their (revolutions)?
                  But you can believe in what you want, even inertoids, I'm tired of arguing with you. Be healthy.
                  1. +1
                    30 July 2018 17: 36
                    [/ quote] Colleague Jura, is it for me? And where did they (read) come up with? Eto you open new physics))) [quote]

                    And who else? No one else here, made a "scientific" discovery that PM is controlled by pressure.
                    I gave you an example with a single boiler to show what will happen if you control the PM pressure, i.e. 30 boilers would not be needed at all.
                    And what does the momentum have to do with it? The pressure at the inlet to the PM is the same (in the general case) at any speed, but the steam consumption is different, the higher it is, the higher the speed and vice versa.
          2. 0
            28 July 2018 10: 32
            I remember our conversation, but it seems that you either didn’t read my answer or didn’t understand it.
            the machine is controlled by pressure, which you yourself confirm by writing below:
            ... but when the tubes began to burst, the safety valves were set to a relatively low pressure.

            it is about the pressure in the boiler, not the steam engine.
            We already had this debate, the amount of steam per beat is constant (depending on the working volume and spool adjustment), the machine is controlled by pressure, which you yourself confirm by writing below

            This is not true, the amount of steam per cycle depends on the position of the throttle valve — at high speeds it is fully open, at small speeds it is covered, it determines the speed of filling the cylinder with steam ..
            1. 0
              28 July 2018 17: 03
              Something you went into the wilds. The parameters of steam is a very complex quantity, which depends on its temperature and pressure. Both dynamic values ​​and during the operation of mechanisms change quite significantly. The design of the throttling device and, in general, the Varyag steam distribution mechanisms are not known to us. There was some kind of automation there, or a crane stood stupidly and no one knows the manometer of the living now.
              Here you need to either believe Gippius, or look for evidence of his incompetence / interest. And to discuss the principles of operation of spherical steam engines in a vacuum can be interesting and even useful for self-development, but reliably to refute the opinion of an engineer who touched these mechanisms with his hands, this way will definitely not work.
              1. 0
                28 July 2018 19: 10
                By the way, in Kataev’s book, Gippius’s comments look much more streamlined than that of our respected author and suggest that he wants to avoid fuss with Varyag’s cars.
                1. +2
                  28 July 2018 19: 35
                  Unfortunately I did not read Gippius and Kataev too. In this matter, I rely entirely on Andrei, as far as I remember, even the most desperate opponents did not incriminate him with a deliberate distortion of facts.
      2. 0
        27 July 2018 10: 05
        But it does not seem to you a clear contradiction .....

        No contradictions: TK had to write correctly
  17. +1
    27 July 2018 23: 07
    Thus, in the battle of January 28, 1904, the maximum that could even theoretically be expected from the Varyaga power plant is its ability to confidently hold 16-17 knots and increase this speed briefly to 20 knots, but the latter is at the risk of damage to the mechanisms.


    It was recalled to the place: “In the second half of September 1903, Asama, having a displacement of 9 855 tons, during sea trials, developed under natural traction and power of mechanisms 14 021 liters. with. move 19,5 knots

    Well, so as not to get up twice: Sunrise 28.01.1904/6/51. - 17:08, set at 5:XNUMX. Rudnev had about XNUMX hours to go until dark.
    1. +1
      28 July 2018 01: 28
      Quote: Saxahorse
      I remembered the place

      Alas, as always, out of place :)))
    2. 0
      28 July 2018 10: 07
      he could go out in the late afternoon
      1. +1
        28 July 2018 10: 42
        however, this is a run ahead, Andrey is right, out of place laughing
        1. 0
          28 July 2018 19: 12
          In place. We are discussing how long the Varyag’s car will last on afterburner. And he couldn’t get out in the evening, the peak of the tide was at 11:20 peak of the tide at 17:35, obviously there is a problem ..
    3. 0
      28 July 2018 11: 01
      Where does the quote about Asam's 19.5 knots come from?
      1. 0
        28 July 2018 19: 18
        In this form, directly from the topvar. Maltsev's article. But I saw other sources with similar data.
        1. 0
          28 July 2018 19: 45
          There is a lot of evidence that the British (and Asam was built by Armstrong) very specifically tested the ships for the various "savages".
          1. 0
            28 July 2018 20: 40
            And this is if we take only speed. And if one also digs for autonomy, then overestimating it 2 times is quite a norm, and there are suspicions that this was not only characteristic of export ships at the end of the 19th century, but so far it hasn’t "digged" deeply.
  18. 0
    28 July 2018 17: 42
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Thus, in the battle of January 28, 1904, the maximum that could even theoretically be expected from the Varyaga power plant is its ability to confidently hold 16-17 knots and increase this speed briefly to 20 knots, but the latter is at the risk of damage to the mechanisms.


    It was recalled to the place: “In the second half of September 1903, Asama, having a displacement of 9 855 tons, during sea trials, developed under natural traction and power of mechanisms 14 021 liters. with. move 19,5 knots

    Well, so as not to get up twice: Sunrise 28.01.1904/6/51. - 17:08, set at 5:XNUMX. Rudnev had about XNUMX hours to go until dark.

    Country of lessons not learned ...
    The Varyag had no chance of a breakthrough from the word "absolutely .."
    We’ve been discussing everything for over a hundred years ... shamefully ..
    1. +1
      28 July 2018 18: 50
      The Varyag had no chance of a breakthrough from the word "absolutely .."
      We’ve been discussing everything for over a hundred years ... shamefully ..


      I agree: there was no chance regardless of the condition of the machines and speed. Even if the Varangian could issue a passport 23 --- there would be no chance in that situation anyway.

      Taran Asama is probably the only battle option
      1. 0
        28 July 2018 19: 27
        The chances were quite real.
        1. +1
          28 July 2018 19: 49
          In the narrow strait to slip past Asam? Oh well
          1. 0
            29 July 2018 19: 10
            Askold broke through in a similar situation.
            1. +1
              29 July 2018 19: 16
              Absolutely nothing similar: Askold "broke" in the open sea, and not in the strait.

              The Varangian should have had (even if he and Asama had the opportunity to develop a full course) for 2 hours in the zone of Asam’s defeat, with the need to get close to somewhere less than 10 cabs.
              1. 0
                29 July 2018 19: 53
                Where is 2 hours from? Where is 10 kbl from? Let me remind you that the battle was at distances of 38-25 kbl. Not so narrow there in these narrownesses. However, this is clearly the topic of the next article.
                1. 0
                  29 July 2018 21: 05
                  Not so narrow there in these narrownesses.

                  That is, you do not know anything about this fight. So?

                  But this ignorance does not stop you from having an opinion ....
            2. +2
              29 July 2018 20: 02
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Askold broke through in a similar situation.

              wassat laughing good
              A similar situation? Seriously?:))))
              1. +1
                30 July 2018 23: 06
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Seriously?

                Quite seriously. “Yakumo and K" failed to intercept Askold. And in your reality, this episode ended differently? wink

                Instead of continuous giggling, you would learn to highlight the main thing in your work. Two articles devoted a bitter cry for boilers, pipes and bearings. I even began to sympathize with poor mechanics. But the two main questions, speed and resource - a clear, reasoned answer did not happen .. So what speed could the Varangian develop? Could cars withstand this breakthrough?

                With your permission, I will be so, I will answer for you:

                The numbers 16 and 20 knots you obviously took from the conclusion of Ouspensky. But they did not notice that the upper figure is very approximate and purely speculative. It was called Ouspensky for reasons “so that nothing would break”. Moreover, Ouspensky himself calmly drove the Varangian in tests and at 136 revolutions and 140. This figure should be considered as minimal as possible - 21.7 knots (140 revolutions)

                Also, according to the resource, a run of 12 or more hours was considered long at that time. Hence the conclusion of Ouspensky should be understood as the possibility of a full run up to 12 hours in length. This means that the run to darkness at 5 o’clock Varyag cars definitely stand.

                And finally, in the same tests, the cruiser was driven at a boiler pressure of 17.5 atm. And nothing exploded and did not break. Which again confirms that the resource of the machines is sufficient for a breakthrough in several (5 for example) hours with a full load.

                I am waiting with interest when we finally get to the battle. And then the people can’t wait to speak out about their opponents smile
                1. +2
                  30 July 2018 23: 35
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  This figure should be considered as minimal as possible - 21.7 nodes (140 revolutions)

                  fool Clear. I’m breaking into a cake, explaining that Varyag did not go 136 and 140 revolutions during the tests, that Varyag did not have and could not have 21,7 ties, but all this sunk into the endless black abyss between your ears ....
                  And compare
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  "Yakumo and K"

                  and the Varangian - well, that would be funny if it weren’t so sad.
                  To argue on the merits (especially about the 136 and 140 revolutions, this is simply lovely!) You can’t do anything, just repeat “Did he develop them!”, Well, what can I talk to you about? :) Just laugh at your attempts and stays. Laughter, of course, sad, but ...
                  1. 0
                    1 August 2018 00: 26
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    I'm breaking into a cake, explaining that Varyag did not go 136 and 140 revolutions during the tests, that Varyag did not and could not have 21,7 knots at these revolutions,

                    You do not get so upset. All the same, I managed to remember the numbers of 21.7 knots and 140 revolutions; your work did not go completely in vain. But your feint with a displacement did not receive an explanation. You understand 21.7 and then oppa and now 19-20 .. And why all of a sudden? First, I recall that the total displacement of the Varyag is not 7400 as you wrote, but 7100 tons. And secondly, I ask the question: why the hell should he always take a full supply of coal instead of the normal 720 tons? The famous charcoal town of Rozhestvensky is still far away, and Chemulpo is only 280 miles away. Yes, and to Vladivostok with a normal supply, you can drive it back and forth twice without stopping.

                    Available photos of the Varangian from Port Arthur and Chemulpo your version of the strong overload also does not confirm in any way. Therefore, I insist that the figure you mentioned is 21.7 knots is quite adequate and does not need magical changes.

                    Well, regarding Yakumo and K, it’s rather strange that you are trying to find different definitions for the same meaning episodes of combat. This is called a "double standard", well, or "as I want and I twist" :)
                    1. 0
                      4 August 2018 20: 21
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      You do not get so upset. All the same, I managed to remember the numbers of 21.7 nodes and 140 revolutions, your work did not go completely in vain

                      Already something :)))
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      First, I recall that the total displacement of the Varangian is not 7400 as you wrote, but 7100 tons.

                      According to the passport - it’s possible. Well, in fact, the Varyag’s displacement with 1330 tons of coal (20 tons less than full) exceeded 7 400 tons, alas. And 21,7 knots is a speed not at 7 400 and not at 7 100т, but at normal displacement 6 500 t.
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      And secondly, I ask the question: why the hell should he always take a full supply of coal instead of normal tons in 720?

                      And why the hell did ALL admirals of ALL fleets of the world at ALL times? :)))
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Available photos of the Varangian from Port Arthur and Chemulpo your version of the strong overload also does not confirm in any way.

                      And why are there photographs? :))) If we have completely accurate data? :))) However, if you are ready to submit a photo where the marks on the Varyag waterline are clearly visible, I am ready to change my mind :)))
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Well, regarding Yakumo and K, it’s rather strange that you are trying to find different definitions for the same meaning episodes of combat.

                      Okay, I’ll explain for you later how these episodes differ.
                      1. +1
                        5 August 2018 19: 26
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        According to the passport - it’s possible. Well, in fact, the Varyag displacement from 1330 tons of coal (20 tons less than full) exceeded 7 tons, alas.

                        Varyag had no construction overload. Moreover, before the descent, he was added about 200 tons of ballast. This is indicated, among others, by R. Melnikov, who is well-known to you. Say more, at Melnikov and Lisitsin the total displacement of the Varyag is indicated as 7022 tons. The figure is 7100 tons from Kataev.

                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And why are there photographs? :))) If we have completely accurate data? :))) However, if you are ready to submit a photo where the marks on the Varyag waterline are clearly visible, I am ready to change my mind :)))

                        "Well, you give a pancake" (c) Features of the National Hunt :)))

                        "If you see the inscription buffalo on the cage of an elephant - do not believe your eyes!" (with)

                        The network is full of photos of the Varangian from the Baltic, from Port Arthur, from Chemulpo. And everywhere the snow-white cruiser shines with a wide, high red line raised high above the water. And even in the last pictures of the Varangian after the battle, it is clear that the ship sits quite high in the water. If someone accidentally forgot :) The mark of the waterline indicates the NORMAL displacement of the warship. For Varangian it is 6500 tons.

                        On the other hand, an overload of 1000 tons is more than 15% of the displacement. The ship should sink into the water almost a meter, for a standing cruiser, this is approximately to the middle of the bow. Please find me at least one such photo ... :)
    2. 0
      29 July 2018 09: 05
      Test speed and real speed are two big differences.
      Cruisers of the Asama type are slow-moving, like cruisers of the Garibaldi type.
      The best of them, with difficulty held 18 knots for a very short time.
      To the best (in terms of speed), oddly enough, the first pair belongs, even with fire tube boilers.
      The worst walkers were Yakumo - 16 knots for a long time, and Azuma - 15 knots for a long time.
      Moreover, the problems of the "Azuma", akin to the problems of the "Varyag" - lightened CMU, not corresponding to the class of the ship (like all Asam) in a compartment with extremely careless assembly.
  19. +1
    29 July 2018 03: 40
    Not a single commander of a ship of this size and with steam engines in narrowness will go at full speed.
    DO NOT WALK IN NARROW AT ALL WALKS ...
    This is true suicide. Rudnev and other commanders were not suicides ..
    Books at least read about swimming in the narrowness ..
    1. +2
      29 July 2018 10: 10
      War is generally suicidal
    2. +4
      30 July 2018 16: 56
      Quote: Shturman_50
      Not a single commander of a ship of this size and with steam engines in narrowness will go at full speed.
      DO NOT WALK IN NARROW AT ALL WALKS ...
      This is true suicide. Rudnev and other commanders were not suicides ..
      Books at least read about swimming in the narrowness ..


      Absolutely right.
      Unfortunately, although people love ships, they write about the fleet, without even having a certificate to operate small vessels, having no idea about fairways and currents, ebbs and flows, reckoning, confuse the drift angle and drift angle.
      Then they write nonsense about a breakthrough in a narrow channel past four times superior forces - profanity ...
      I have already laid out a map of the depths and fairway - they still rave about a breakthrough - the people do not understand the map, do not read.
      1. +3
        30 July 2018 17: 26
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Unfortunately, although people love ships, they write about the fleet, without even having a certificate to operate small vessels, having no idea about fairways and currents, ebbs and flows, reckoning, confuse the drift angle and drift angle.

        It was a month ago to observe how a modern working navigator of the civilian fleet proved that the Varangian could go along the fairway at 20 nodes, and it was easy to maneuver. So here not only people who have no idea can speak out for such a thing. Honestly. I then refrained from making any personal opinion on this subject then, for there was quite serious abuse between two colleagues, with a bunch of prof. terminology, and there were a lot of emotions, but in general the impression was that yes, the ship can indeed go in those conditions 20 knots of the course. With modern navigation equipment, and a detailed examination of that same channel with the placement of landmarks (for example, bonfires on the shore in case of a night break) request And when the fairway is not so familiar, and there may be difficulties with the landmarks, and the depth is measured with a simple lot, and even the EMNIP has a strong lateral flow in the presence of ...
        1. 0
          30 July 2018 17: 52
          My dear, when you have Asam ahead, and there is a fairway from the sides, a reasonable question arises, which is more dangerous, isn't it? So, I will mathematically express Asam’s danger to you: 9-10% of a 203mm hit per shot. By the way, how many hits of 203mm will the Varangian withstand?
          Of 27 shots of 203mm, Asama hit 3 hits. There were still 152mm, but this small thing in comparison can already be counted even, dumped like nothing.

          So tell us now, using not words and mother-and-math, and probabilities, about the risks of passing that particular channel at different speeds?

          For information: Rudnev walked at 10 knots, of which 4 gave ebb currents (that is, the Varyag had 6 knots of its own). The task for the 3rd class: how many shells 203mm (and 152mm) would the Varangian catch with such a “breakthrough”?

          More information: for half an hour the Varyag course is not me. And what's more, that channel, in that very place, and further for 2-3 miles, at least was straight.
          1. +2
            30 July 2018 18: 09
            My dear, if you are threatened to land aground under the guns of the enemy, when the ship turns into a helpless target to strengthen the skills of Japanese commandants for stationary targets, it is preferable to at least a meager chance to break through, getting the N-th number of hits when approaching, then we are with you nothing more to talk about.
            Particularly amused by the involvement of mathematics. Apparently, it doesn’t work for you if the "Varangian" instead of a moving target turns into a stationary one. So, for reference - in this case, the Japanese could achieve more hits than 3 from 27, could choose the distance of the battle, and the "Varangian" could not get out of it, because it would be aground. Given the difficult local conditions, even the theoretical possibility of such a development of events of any commander who was not extinguished into the trash will force you to go straight ahead without changing course, in the conditions of a complex and narrow fairway, and not allowing high speed due to the threat of running aground or pitfalls. In the much more surveyed "Marquise Puddle" the ships regularly ran aground and rocks flew, and here Korea!
            Ay, to one place that's all. Judging by the appeal, naked emotions climbed out of you.
            1. 0
              30 July 2018 19: 51
              My dear, if you are threatened to land aground under the guns of the enemy, when the ship turns into a helpless target to strengthen the skills of Japanese commandants for stationary targets, it is preferable to at least a meager chance to break through, getting the N-th number of hits when approaching, then we are with you nothing more to talk about.

              I had nothing to talk about with you from the very beginning --- because you also heard about this fight ... something. I asked you to confirm your words in numbers - at least in some numbers. I perfectly understood that there would be no numbers - but only ... words, words, words.

              So I inform you: the Japanese were anchored when they saw the Varangian ... they unfastened the chains --- here are the fools, they decided that the Varangian was breaking through. And the Japanese dispersed, starting from the anchorage, up to 18 knots. But Rudnev masterfully deceived them --- having 6 knots of his own move (+ 4 added current).
              Was he "breaking through" so much?
              So: about the shallows and stuff: to slip past Asam, and even if Asam weren’t there but only the cruisers Uriu, at 6 knots (and even at 10 knots) Rudnev had no chance. There wasn’t any shoals: at such a speed, Asama would make the Varangian in scrap metal in an hour anyway. (Without Asam, the cruiser Uriu would be transported for two hours.) But at a speed of at least 16 knots (the Japanese for some reason reached 18) at least a hypothetical chance to slip through while the Japanese riveted the chains existed. Hypothetical, I repeat. But at 6 (or 10, which are 6 + 4) there was no general at all, initially.

              That is: the option to "drive strictly according to traffic rules" is guaranteed and initially only led to a loss. Trying to accelerate, or to go at night, gave at least some chance.

              Particularly amused by the involvement of mathematics.

              I understand --- it’s difficult for you. Well, sorry.

              Apparently, it doesn’t work for you if the "Varangian" instead of a moving target turns into a stationary one.

              And the Varangian was a "stationary target". 6 knots of their own move - yes, he stood still. Not only that, when Rudnev decided to turn away, he did it so that he almost put the cruiser on the stones - he had to cut back gear. How many minutes exactly there the cruiser was actually a fixed target - this will tell us Andrew

              In general, it’s not interesting for me to talk to you about anything: besides idle talk, there’s nothing from you and there won’t be, it’s already obvious. So ignore me, be so affectionate.
              1. +5
                30 July 2018 20: 21
                It's funny, you here called a colleague a boor below, and you yourself are boorish at every step.
                All your "numbers" are from the category of "Chewbacca's defense." Like, here are the numbers for you, “Asama” got 3 from 27 203-mm shells into the “Varyag”, which went on the 6 nodes of the course, this fully confirms my opinion that the “Varyag” could and was obliged to go at full speed and actively maneuver in a narrow fairway. A complete denial of the basics of navigation, ignoring local features and depths (the map was repeatedly cited - but it’s difficult, read it and draw the necessary conclusions), but 3 shell from 27, Chewbacca was born on the planet Kashyyyk, which means your point of view is the only true one, and her challenge is complete ignorance of the materiel. What arguments do not apply to justify your own illiteracy.
                It’s funny that my colleague’s point of view on this question is approximately familiar to me, and although I won’t answer for it, you can stock up on popcorn and wait until you start to be rude to him and shake the numbers “6 nodes, 3 shells from 27!” hoping to prove his own innocence.
                And yes, since you hastened to make yourself an offended truth, I remind you that you got into my conversation with my Dimer-Vladimer colleague, I wrote to you specifically on this subject only as an answer, and now I'm also extreme. Well, okay, the translation of arrows is a tradition in such cases.
        2. +1
          31 July 2018 10: 35
          Quote: arturpraetor
          About a month ago it was possible to observe how a modern working navigator of the civilian fleet proved


          Is he a navigator? Maybe coke? Not on Costa Concordia for an hour? :))


          I understand that in modern conditions - with GPS, there are acrobats that can land a liner aground ...
          But if you reckon at night knowing the wind strength and direction (you can calculate the drift angle), but the currents (drift angle) is very difficult to calculate. In shallow water, currents change speed and direction with the ebb / flow - a great chance to land a ship aground without reference.
          There was no talk of light alignments, a maximum of milestones or buoys (and there were hardly any light signals).
          I see no way to develop in those conditions, in a narrow fairway, in the dark, full speed, without risk of landing the cruiser aground.
          1. 0
            31 July 2018 11: 14
            Here is the material: http://alternathistory.com/content/kakuyu-skorost
            -mog-razvit-varyag
          2. 0
            31 July 2018 15: 48
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            Is he a navigator? Maybe coke? Not on Costa Concordia for an hour? :))

            In my unenlightened view, a person is clearly “in the subject”. It hurts a lot of details, you can see for yourself - a colleague The senior sailor gave the link. But even I, not having the habit of blindly trusting someone else’s opinion, doubted his conclusions for several reasons:
            - that day, night it’s a big problem to determine the exact location of the ship on the fairway, the navigator will calculate that way (and everything was done manually then), the turn will be completed at the wrong speed, the side current strength will be incorrectly determined - and that’s it, the ship is positioned wrong and goes into shallow water, and if it is not aground, then something like what was described here by colleague Shturman_50;
            - local conditions, if the captain of the ship is in their right mind, they don’t allow maneuvering aki in wows with complete freedom “wherever I want to drive there and turn until I stick to the shore”, you need to go constantly checking the coastal reference points + measure the depth under the keel with a lot, and these are big speed limits. In peacetime, one can still not play it safe again, but the “Varyag” went on a breakthrough, and landing aground under the nose of the Japanese would not only be an automatic defeat, but also a kind of shame that would give rise to a lot of rumors about a low prof. the level of Russians as sailors, and even cowardice in addition - they say, they were in such a hurry to break through that when they saw enemy ships they ran aground. The mere probability of this will cause 300 to play it safe again, to go slowly, but without unnecessary risk of “getting stuck” aground ..
            And all this despite the fact that I’m a land person, I don’t know how to swim, and was already twice in my life on watercraft, and for the second time I received the dubious pleasure of returning home by boat against the tide in pitch darkness (not counting the lights of Nikolaev far beyond the horizon) trying to find "your" stretch of beach wassat But still, you begin to understand some things, one way or another, when you are carried away by the history of the fleet not at the level of interpretations simplified to fabulousness, and especially the passage of ships in shallow water and along narrow fairways as well.
  20. 0
    29 July 2018 15: 56
    Quote: AK64
    War is generally suicidal

    Be sure to ...
    As he mounted his horse, he killed himself ...
    And the generals with the announcement of mobilization are completely shooting ... Gee ..
    General staff officers get the ropes with soap out of the safes ...
    "War is SUGARITAL business, after all"
    Sometimes it's better to keep silent or chew .. than talk!
    1. 0
      29 July 2018 16: 21
      You are amazingly smart, aren't you?

      Going on the attack is often much more dangerous, and the likelihood of death is much higher than going in narrowness at full speed
      That’s why, in war, the usual safety rules are usually not respected.
  21. +2
    30 July 2018 07: 51
    Quote: AK64
    You are amazingly smart, aren't you?

    Going on the attack is often much more dangerous, and the likelihood of death is much higher than going in narrowness at full speed
    That’s why, in war, the usual safety rules are usually not respected.


    No (the matter is not in the mind, but in the qualifications)!
    I am a military (professional).
    It’s scary to attack, especially if it’s not prepared .. the firing points are not suppressed .. there is no air cover .. artillery and other escorts .. BUT WE DO NOT ABOUT THIS?
    The commander of the ship, which will go at full speed in the narrowness (we are considering the Varyag class), will break it on the stones ... AND GO TO THE COURT OF THE MILITARY TRIBUNAL, if it lives.
    In this case (movement in narrowness at full speed), it is also necessary to conduct artillery combat and carry out combat maneuvering. And to combine these incompatible tasks is IMPOSSIBLE.
    This is roughly how to set the tank crew the task of taking off and bombing the enemy’s artillery positions from the air.
    Thesis about swimming in narrowness at full speed:
    1. The ship loses control easily in shallow water... when the influence of wind and current changes in narrowness..
    2. The ship can touch the ground (with consequences, including fatal ones) ...
    3. In the general case, he loses the ability to shoot accurately, evade enemy fire, because he keeps on course badly ... the effectiveness of steering devices drops completely at times ... and part of the ship's control forces is diverted to secondary tasks.
    In short, only a suicide can walk at full speed in narrowness, and even in an artillery battle.
    Rudnev was not like that, like the rest of the commanders of the RIF ships of the REV period.
    I had to be on the bridge when the ship lost control in the narrowness - this is worse than getting up the attack ..
    Rudnev fulfilled his duty in full. Of course, after the loss of the RPE, the attitude towards Rudnev simply began to change (how did they lose the war, and he is a hero in the royal retinue). But this is not his fault.

    Finally - in war, safety rules are followed DEFINITELY.
    Combat guard, sentries, reconnaissance of all kinds, positions, trenches, etc. This is the ABC - only those who do what needs to be done remain alive. Otherwise - a tribunal, defeat, well, or shooting before the formation (or detachment). That's how the military fights.
    There are those who simply go to the service ... but we are not talking about these. Otherwise, Tsushima ...
    1. 0
      30 July 2018 09: 33
      It’s scary to attack, especially if it’s not prepared .. the firing points are not suppressed .. there is no air cover .. artillery and other escorts .. BUT WE DO NOT ABOUT THIS?

      We are talking about this - and there is nothing to loop here! Do not wind like a hare!
      Yes, it is extremely dangerous and fraught with accidents to walk along narrowness at full speed. But there are other risks in the war, and they are often higher: in this case, Asama was a much more important risk than the risk of an accident.
      Therefore, in war, applying the concept of security from peacetime is incorrect.

      The commander of the ship, which will go at full speed in the narrowness (we are considering the Varyag class), will break it on the stones ... AND GO TO THE COURT OF THE MILITARY TRIBUNAL, if it lives.

      In war and in those conditions? No, I wouldn’t go. Or would have been immediately acquitted by any court --- as having used the only opportunity.

      In this case (movement in narrowness at full speed), it is also necessary to conduct artillery combat and carry out combat maneuvering. And to combine these incompatible tasks is IMPOSSIBLE.

      No "combat maneuvering", except for a turn of 16 points, the Varangian did not drive. And in general, I spent all on one course --- first there, and then exactly in the opposite direction.

      This is roughly how to set the tank crew the task of taking off and bombing the enemy’s artillery positions from the air.

      many ships waged artillery at full speed during that war --- therefore, you are lying. What for?

      In short, only a suicide can walk at full speed in narrowness, and even in an artillery battle.

      I repeat for you again: war is often quite a suicidal event.
      Rudnev fulfilled his duty in full.

      What, about the debt began to argue? In white sheets began to wrap? Well - a common occurrence in RuNet.
      The thesis was different, and not about Rudnev at all.
      Finally - in war, safety rules are followed DEFINITELY.

      Oh really? Tell this to Jesse. That is, in war, emergency gang, for example in aviation, in combat units, is commensurate with combat losses. Moreover, which is characteristic of all partisipants.
      Combat guard, sentries, reconnaissance of all kinds, positions, trenches, etc. This is the ABC - only those who do what needs to be done remain alive. Otherwise - a tribunal, defeat, well, or shooting before the formation (or detachment). That's how the military fights.

      \ turns into the hall \
      You see, gentlemen, how it spun: combat protection is already on a par with traffic rules. Mean confused warrior.
      1. +4
        30 July 2018 17: 08
        Quote: AK64
        many ships waged artillery at full speed during that war --- therefore, you are lying. What for?


        Have you even driven a boat?
        If you don’t understand the difference between navigation in the narrowness in shallow water and in the open sea, try to master MP navigation for a start.

        If you advise you to go at full speed in the narrowness of the fairway - you are ignorant, since the consequences of a collision with shallows are from the flooding of the compartments of the ship, to the breakdown of cars and boilers from the foundation with catastrophic consequences.

        The course of the ship was determined by the fairway, it is impossible to maneuver in it!
        1. +1
          30 July 2018 17: 30
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          If you advise you to go at full speed in the narrowness of the fairway - you are ignorant, since the consequences of a collision with shallows are from the flooding of the compartments of the ship, to the breakdown of cars and boilers from the foundation with catastrophic consequences.

          And this is not taking into account the "magic" position of the ship, which instead of a rather complicated moving target when stranded can become a stationary target for a long time (or even permanently), if you shot at the Japanese it would be much easier. Although, perhaps, proponents of active maneuvering at high speed of the Varyag want this - because a cruiser will die in battle, such as better than flooding a ship so that the Japanese get it!
          1. 0
            30 July 2018 17: 41
            And this is not considering ...... that he got to the Japanese!

            My dear, what are you talking about? And to whom?
            1. +3
              30 July 2018 18: 12
              This I supplemented the comment of a colleague. Or do you forbid me?
              And it's me that I don’t understand the reasoning from the category "it’s better to run aground than to contact the Japanese." The joke is that if you are aground, you will contact the Japanese in any way, and in a completely hopeless position of a motionless target, and one probability of this made you go slowly, measuring the depths, and do not maneuver once again in the narrowness of the fairway. This somehow eludes the understanding of quite a few, give them brave cavalry attacks with active maneuvering in the style of a la wows.
              1. 0
                30 July 2018 23: 41
                We have not yet reached the description of the battle, but it seems to me that emotions are already beginning to boil :)

                I didn’t drive a vessel larger than a motor boat, but I looked at the map, it became interesting. The width of this narrow fairway is 1.5 miles at its narrowest point however. And in the place where you suggest moving with the measurements, Asama at the end of the battle at 15 knots turned around without braking when he stopped the pursuit of the Varyag. For some reason, it seems to me that emotional perception greatly interferes with the objective consideration of the issue.
                1. +1
                  31 July 2018 11: 24
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  The width of this narrow fairway is 1.5 miles at its narrowest point however. And in the place where you suggest moving with the measurements, Asama at the end of the battle at 15 knots turned around without braking when he stopped the pursuit of the Varyag. For some reason, it seems to me that emotional perception greatly interferes with the objective consideration of the issue.


                  When turning, the speed will drop from 15 to 11-12 knots if you do not reduce the speed of the machine.
                  The fairway of 1,5 miles is the conditional width of the line.
                  If you perform a turn in this narrowness, then clinging to the boundary of the alignment of the shipway, it is quite possible to make a turn within the ship's course.

                  Perhaps I will lay out again the location with the maneuvering of the ships, so that everyone can appreciate the width of the course, shallows, currents (at the time of the battle), underwater obstacles (rocks, flooded ships).
                  The lighthouse (I suppose that it was possibly operational on the night before) could provide an exit in the dark. But right behind the lighthouse there were blocking vessels, I believe that they also had a post (landing) on ​​the lighthouse, which could warn the blocking squadron about the departure of the Varyag in advance.
                  1. +1
                    31 July 2018 23: 40
                    An interesting map, many times looked in its entirety. The only thing I can’t exactly understand in what units of depth are affixed. In my fathoms.

                    As for combat and maneuvering.

                    From the final report to Uriu. “The battle took place in a very dangerous place with a strong current, the width of which in some places did not exceed 2000 meters, and saturated with shoals and pitfalls. The speed of our ships during maneuvering reached 18 knots. Despite these dangers, our ships attacked the maneuvering enemy, in turn .. "

                    From the report of Commander Chioda Kaperang Kakuichi. “Within 20 minutes after the start of the battle, Asama followed at a speed of 15 knots. At 12:48 (VR), Asama significantly accelerated and went north pursuing the enemy.”

                    Look at the maneuvering scheme for example Asama. He doesn’t even maneuver, he waltzes in this channel at full speed.

                    The problem with narrowing maneuvering in relation to the Chemulpo battle seems far-fetched to me. In a real story that has already happened, both opponents and Varangian and Asama really maneuvered in battle, and at a fairly high speed. What is the point of setting out possible problems if it is already known that they may be difficult to solve.
                    1. 0
                      1 August 2018 10: 32
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      An interesting map, many times looked in its entirety. The only thing I can’t exactly understand in what units of depth are affixed. In my fathoms.

                      As for combat and maneuvering.

                      From the final report to Uriu. “The battle took place in a very dangerous place with a strong current, the width of which in some places did not exceed 2000 meters, and saturated with shoals and pitfalls. The speed of our ships during maneuvering reached 18 knots. Despite these dangers, our ships attacked the maneuvering enemy, in turn .. "

                      From the report of Commander Chioda Kaperang Kakuichi. “Within 20 minutes after the start of the battle, Asama followed at a speed of 15 knots. At 12:48 (VR), Asama significantly accelerated and went north pursuing the enemy.”

                      Look at the maneuvering scheme for example Asama. He doesn’t even maneuver, he waltzes in this channel at full speed.

                      The problem with narrowing maneuvering in relation to the Chemulpo battle seems far-fetched to me. In a real story that has already happened, both opponents and Varangian and Asama really maneuvered in battle, and at a fairly high speed. What is the point of setting out possible problems if it is already known that they may be difficult to solve.


                      Right.
                      fathom - i.e. in fathoms = 6 feet or 1,8288 m

                      18 knots in a U-turn - this is impossible. Shturman_50 (Gena) wrote why it is higher, and on catch-up courses - it is quite possible.
                      1. 0
                        1 August 2018 22: 39
                        During the tests, the Varangian turned around with a diameter of 3 cables (555m) and a speed of 17 knots in 1 min. 40 seconds.

                        In tests, Asama showed a circulation diameter of 1470 feet (448,056 m). By the way, better than the Varangian, though I don’t remember at what speed.
        2. 0
          30 July 2018 17: 40
          Have you even driven a boat?
          ......
          The course of the ship was determined by the fairway, it is impossible to maneuver in it!


          Come on, dear, go, in another place rude, and other people.

          Take the trouble not to write to me again at all, and never
  22. +2
    31 July 2018 06: 12
    I realized that the main issue in the dispute was whether the “Varangian” could “rush” along the strait in full (contracted) way and slip past the Japanese? And no one could catch him ...
    Guilty, it means, Crump is an American.
    I explain that this is a fixed idea.
    “Then someone referred to the navigator of the merchant fleet, that you can go in the narrow at full speed.”
    Tell this "navigator" that he is a liar, a chatterbox and an "eccentric" in the letter "m" or "d" (choose for your taste).
    Navigator of the merchant fleet - stands on the bridge and carries the watch on the way as an assistant to the captain, and he don’t know on the bridge what maneuverable move, running mode, etc. Just someone lied here.
    If the vessel is in a displacement mode (not a torpedo boat or on a water cushion, then he needs to walk several miles of clean water when stopping the car and to a complete stop ... It depends on the weight of the loaded ship and reaches 10 miles. This is of course extreme value. Another circumstance. Another circumstance. Another circumstance. - at full speed the ship (vessel) cannot immediately reverse (!).
    Next will be only physics. The incoming mass of water on the screw begins to rotate it like a turbine in the forward direction. If a diesel engine is on the ship, then a “rollover of the diesel engine” will occur and it will start working in forward gear ...
    The steam engine also has excessive loads on deadwood, bearings, the foundation of steam engines and boilers, etc.
    Therefore, there is “not only Toko Yakir-flail,” but also modes of controlling the machine.
    The instructions spell out at what speeds you can reverse and how to do it.
    Having stalled cars, it is necessary to extinguish part of the speed by inertia, and only then work in reverse.
    Therefore, ships (vessels) maneuver in the maneuvering modes of the power plant and in NARROWS move in maneuverable mode - this is no more than 8-10 knots. Taking into account the current, the speed could actually be 2-3 knots higher. The currents are decent there (see the section).
    Next - maneuvering begins from the moment the survey starts from the anchor and continues until it enters the open sea. In the straits, maneuvers of course and speed are carried out, i.e. also in maneuverable mode. Often, the only way to avoid an accident is the return of the anchor, which falls out of the cliff in readiness for recoil .. The boatswain is sitting at the windlass at the stoppers ...
  23. +3
    31 July 2018 06: 13
    The second part of the Marlezon Ballet ... the swans went ...
    For the ship to go forward, it is necessary for the propeller to drive back a mass of water, only sufficiently more than the displacement of the ship. Part of the energy is spent on the formation of a tangled wave, which interacts with shallows, banks, etc. - affects the uniform and stable movement of the ship at a given course. Those. it is necessary to constantly intervene in steering the steering wheel, cars .. This is the peculiarity of managing narrow maneuvering. There is still a hydrodynamic interaction, since a stream of water passes between the soil (not necessarily at the bottom under the keel) .. its speed increases because the water does not compress, and the resulting effects on the ship are expressed in the phenomenon of “suction”, loss of controllability, etc. P.
    For Varyag with its draft of 6,3 m, B / L = 8, the maximum safe depth is 12–13 meters for (ie, plus draft T). “Varangian” had to go through the depths on the map, taking into account the ebb tide of 15 meters on the fairway, but not “miss”.
    Here is such a boring thing, kids ... The commander of the ship, upon receipt of clearance, passes an exam to know a lot of things ... including this one. AND OBLIGED TO PERFORM ...
    I have not yet written about the magnetic compass with its deviation, declination and inertia of the card, etc.
    Therefore, maneuvering in narrowness is ongoing. Before going clean water. In our case, there was no way out. But thanks to Rudnev, it ended more or less safely. Because there was no chance at all. Well, at least they successfully turned in the strait to the opposite course.
    Combat maneuvering is carried out in addition to the main one in order to reduce the impact of damaging factors in this case, the artillery fire of the Japanese and to avoid a possible sudden attack by destroyers ... Well, and not to bring down the tip of their commanders.
    Something like that.
    PS
    About boilers - there are also more subtle points - the presence of sulfur in coal ... during combustion, sulfur oxides are formed taking into account wet coal (so that they do not ignite spontaneously) and the humidity of the air blown into the boilers at the combustion temperature, a family of sulfuric and sulfuric acids appears, which when encountered “Cold” tubes condense and corrode the metal .. probably precisely at the end points of the mount, where there is less blowing and entrainment of combustion products. Now it’s relevant, perhaps, only for coal-fired power plants .. They do the analysis of coal for sulfur necessarily, otherwise the boilers do not produce overhauls, fistulas in the heating surfaces. Well, try to mix sour coals with low sour coals. But we are not talking about that. Crump is a pest.
  24. +2
    1 August 2018 05: 55
    Quote: Saxahorse
    An interesting map, many times looked in its entirety. The only thing I can’t exactly understand in what units of depth are affixed. In my fathoms.

    As for combat and maneuvering.

    From the final report to Uriu. “The battle took place in a very dangerous place with a strong current, the width of which in some places did not exceed 2000 meters, and saturated with shoals and pitfalls. The speed of our ships during maneuvering reached 18 knots. Despite these dangers, our ships attacked the maneuvering enemy, in turn .. "

    From the report of Commander Chioda Kaperang Kakuichi. “Within 20 minutes after the start of the battle, Asama followed at a speed of 15 knots. At 12:48 (VR), Asama significantly accelerated and went north pursuing the enemy.”

    Look at the maneuvering scheme for example Asama. He doesn’t even maneuver, he waltzes in this channel at full speed.

    The problem with narrowing maneuvering in relation to the Chemulpo battle seems far-fetched to me. In a real story that has already happened, both opponents and Varangian and Asama really maneuvered in battle, and at a fairly high speed. What is the point of setting out possible problems if it is already known that they may be difficult to solve.

    Well, let me object a little ...
    The map is English, at "Abacus" I saw a good one - adm. Number 1270 ..
    It follows from it (really depths in fathoms and feet) - that multiplying 6-7 fathoms by 1,83m we get depths of 11-13 meters, but this is an average level. The level (MEDIUM) of the ebbs and flows of the lots from 6 to 10 meters. Strongly affected by the wind. The currents result even up to 5-6 knots. From low to high water - about 10 hours ...
    Therefore, to say that someone was waltzing at full speed there is a mistake ..
    All the maneuvers of the Japanese squadron were on a rather deep and wide stretch beyond Father Iodolmi.
    In addition, I’m sure that the Japanese had their detailed maps .. This is a nation of sailors and fishermen .. and they considered Korea theirs. Preparing to fight, land troops, etc. For a long time, everyone measured that it was necessary to get round and set landmarks. Went there day and night, despite the tides and currents.
    Let's get back to our garden ..

    There are rules in the Navy (of all countries) - if a group of ships is distinguished, then the group commander determines the full speed of the group, medium and small. It determines the diameter of circulation common to all, and the commanders on the tables on their ships determine the rudder angles for joint maneuvering. To avoid confusion and reeling in the herd, because each ship has its own burrows .. (one strives to fall behind, the other falls out of order ..

    The Japanese, having deployed in several detachments, prepared the "Varangian" classic trap ... only he left behind
    Father Iodolmi, they immediately began to hammer it with concentrated fire .. Here, one did not need to measure distances in advance - the buoys on the channel boundary were better than any marking ... Just went out to the buoy and the arctic fox crept up ..
    It is possible that Asama knew a place where he could turn around while working “foolishly.” There is no mystery here, accurate calculation and knowledge (I mentioned maps). But the "Varangian" did not have knowledge and would not have turned around in the canal until relatively clean water came out ...
    Well, we must remember that nowhere else do they lie than in hunting and war ..
    Somehow it turns out.
    1. +2
      1 August 2018 09: 00
      Quote: Shturman_50
      It is possible that Asama knew a place where he could turn around while working “foolishly.” There is no mystery here, accurate calculation and knowledge (I mentioned maps). But the "Varangian" did not have knowledge and would not have turned around in the canal until relatively clean water came out ...


      That's right - the Japanese chose the place of the ambush, just in the reach, where it was possible to deploy a squadron in at least two columns. They had room for limited maneuver.
      The Varangian was walking in narrow places and in order to break into the sea - he had to get close and break past the enemy at such a meager distance that the effectiveness of the concentrated fire of the Japanese did not leave him the slightest chance of a breakthrough.
      Moreover, there were destroyers in the Japanese squadron - in fact, the Varangian shortened the distance by going on a torpedo volley - despite the fact that maneuver was difficult.
      So the subsequent actions - the best possible - turn and exit the battle without releasing the flag.
      Part of the crew saved - an example of how even a hopeless battle can be carried out heroically. The press of that time was filled with admiration for the actions of the heroic crew of the cruiser and his crew.
      1. 0
        1 August 2018 22: 54
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        That's right - the Japanese chose the place of the ambush, just in the reach, where it was possible to deploy a squadron in at least two columns. They had room for limited maneuver.

        In general, there was no place for building in a classical column. Therefore, Uriu placed forces in three echelons, so that the Varangian stumbled upon them in turn.

        Quote: DimerVladimer
        The Varangian was walking in narrow places and in order to break into the sea - he had to get close and break past the enemy at such a meager distance that the effectiveness of the concentrated fire of the Japanese did not leave him the slightest chance of a breakthrough.

        And here is a slippery moment. At the moment Varyag turned right, Asam had already slipped him and began to turn from him. The distance is approximately 30-35kbl. As a result, a passage was opened to the western fairway, though past another detachment of Naniva and Niitaki. Here partly the same situation appeared as in Askold, when Yakumo did not have time, and the light cruisers could not be stopped. Unfortunately, Rudnev could not cope with the turn. Well, or did not plan such an attempt.
    2. 0
      1 August 2018 22: 46
      Quote: Shturman_50
      All the maneuvers of the Japanese squadron were on a rather deep and wide stretch beyond Father Iodolmi.

      Not all. Two detachments remained in the reach between the fairways and the first detachment went right into the fairway off the island of Iodolmi. Asama made the second loop right where Rudnev stuck into the island, the third already at the distance of a direct shot from the parking lot. The Varangian was anchored at high tide when the available fairway width was maximum. It’s really 1.5 miles wide on the map, and I quoted the diameters of the soldiers’s circulation above, these are 486 and 555 meters. This is not the case when the narrowness of the paint from the sides is peeled off, there was a lot of room for maneuvering.
  25. 0
    3 August 2018 05: 59
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    Quote: Shturman_50
    It is possible that Asama knew a place where he could turn around while working “foolishly.” There is no mystery here, accurate calculation and knowledge (I mentioned maps). But the "Varangian" did not have knowledge and would not have turned around in the canal until relatively clean water came out ...


    That's right - the Japanese chose the place of the ambush, just in the reach, where it was possible to deploy a squadron in at least two columns. They had room for limited maneuver.
    The Varangian was walking in narrow places and in order to break into the sea - he had to get close and break past the enemy at such a meager distance that the effectiveness of the concentrated fire of the Japanese did not leave him the slightest chance of a breakthrough.
    Moreover, there were destroyers in the Japanese squadron - in fact, the Varangian shortened the distance by going on a torpedo volley - despite the fact that maneuver was difficult.
    So the subsequent actions - the best possible - turn and exit the battle without releasing the flag.
    Part of the crew saved - an example of how even a hopeless battle can be carried out heroically. The press of that time was filled with admiration for the actions of the heroic crew of the cruiser and his crew.


    Here's the thing ...
    We completely forget about the psychology of the enemy and make a very big mistake (regularly rake). We think that on the other hand the same person ..
    Classics of the genre: “Put yourself in the place of the enemy ..” (well, this is only possible in chess ..)

    Let's go back to our garden.

    For Japan, symbols are very important - they are often unknown to us.
    Starting the war with Russia, the Japanese were most afraid of defeat, especially in the first clash (“Varangian”). Loss of face is the worst thing ... "Bushido" is also not an empty phrase .. Ours did without hara-kiri.
    For several years I worked with the Japanese (and in Japan, too). If the Japanese just makes a shovel, then he polishes it to the nail hats in the handle ..
    It is impossible for the Japanese to explain the meaning of the words “maybe” and “probably”.

    - they are certainly excellent sailors .. the country on islands and islets - it is necessary to carry, deliver, fish and fish (every day they go out to sea - tens of thousands of ships and boats).

    - Since Soviet times, Japanese schooners have been regularly detained and arrested for poaching. Judged, exacted fines, not about that. One of the confiscated schooners was handed over to the Pacific Fleet. Based in Vladivostok. We went on it only in our territorial waters. On the schooner is a wheelhouse and an open bridge from above. It can only be kneeling, or sitting in Japanese, a 40-centimeter-high fence .. If you get up, you fall overboard on the very first wave. We could not be on the upper bridge, well, only at the pier if ... I’m silent about the cabin and the cabin. In backward latrine, like in a doghouse on all fours (it is better to remove your pants in advance) - these are the impressions!

    - A few years ago (there was nothing to do) I counted the tides on the tables. The “Varangian” did not go out to high water (high water was at night) but already at low tide ... At night, the Varangian wouldn’t go out, it was necessary to prepare landmarks (lights, targets, etc.) - in a foreign country - and there was no time anymore .
    I have no doubt that the Japanese chose the time for an ultimatum at such a time - it’s a sacred thing to put the enemy in a state of instability - then topple it with a light push.
    - exclusively polished actions ... of the Japanese ship group (s) had to be trained and “lost” in rehearsal., well, like before Pearl Harbor.
    Too much was at stake in the first clash.
    It is clear that communication (telegraph) was blocked ... even with Seoul, before the military operation.
    You need to know that Japan considered Korea their patrimony, intelligence there was higher than the roof, and the situation with the boilers and Varyag machines was no worse than Rudnev (or maybe better - the citizens were not in vain helping). It was the same in Arthur and Vladivostok.
    For each commander, captain and other specialists there were dossiers .. This is still ongoing. The dossier reflects habits, character, behavior, etc. ("Loves gifts"). You understand that this is a delicate matter ... And according to their files, they knew exactly what a person would do, what decision they would make ... You know what satisfaction is that the “experimental” does everything according to your plan and comes “into the trap” at the exact time and place.

    Asama made sure that the Varangian returned to the parking lot and, turning around, returned to the squadron (Chioda did not follow him into the “gut”, because he knew that he would return, and together there, on the opposite courses - not comme il faut - (sea synonyms are forbidden on the site)).

    PS The diameter of the circulation depends on the speed, rudder angle, depth, current and wind at the point of maneuver. ABSOLUTELY SURE that “waltzing” in narrowness, describing the circulation - means putting the entire combat operation in jeopardy (when it has already ended in victory). The Japanese admiral could not do this .. Turned around on cars - the most optimal.
    It remains to be expected that Commodore Bailey will convince Rudnev not to blow up the Varangian so that there is a trophy.
    And this is not conspiracy thesis .. The British were in the know.

    PPS It's a pity only time, this is the most expensive human resource .. it can not be bought for money. How many times can you shovel material? For more than a hundred years, everyone has already worn out.
    Banzai to your home!
    Best regards
    1. +1
      3 August 2018 22: 56
      I dare not argue with your slender and beautiful scheme. But let me remind you that the main task of Uriu was the landing in Chemulpo. And such an impressive cover was in case of a sudden, preventive attack from the Port Arthur squadron. The Varangian there simply turned up by the arm.
  26. 0
    7 August 2018 06: 11
    Quote: Saxahorse
    I dare not argue with your slender and beautiful scheme. But let me remind you that the main task of Uriu was the landing in Chemulpo. And such an impressive cover was in case of a sudden, preventive attack from the Port Arthur squadron. The Varangian there simply turned up by the arm.

    "Arigato's house!" kindly, as the Japanese say ...
    I also liked it .. I begin to understand a little bit the Japanese, when they spend hours looking at the hieroglyphs made by the master of calligraphy .. they pass them by inheritance.
    Because of this, he removed the episode of how, under the command of the commander, “Asama” effectively turned in a narrow aisle - this was an unnecessary detail (episode), “polluting”, like a blot, the general light beauty of the execution of the war plan (written by the master of the character).

    But back to our garden:
    The task of landing troops was, but this is only the first task, and the second - the Russian ships "Varyag" and "Koreets", and of the "Sungari" identity.
    The fact is that the Japanese knew all the information (intelligence), and the "Varangian" with the "Korean" did not appear there yesterday.
    During the first task on the "Varangian" they did not yet know about the declaration of war by Japan ..
    And before the second, this was said in an ultimatum ...
    The ships from Port Arthur then still lived a peaceful life. Yeah, armadillos between reefs on the fairway.
    Russia had no reason to prevent the landing of troops from transports.
    Rudnev had instructions not to interfere ... Just in case, Japanese ships were ready to attack and drown the Varyag with torpedoes ..
    At the same time, it was also a check of the option, if the Varangian did not go out of the port under an ultimatum!
    The plan of defeating the Russians right at the raid parking was considered, after the exit of all foreigners ...
    Such alignment would be more disgraceful for us.
    Well something like that.
    Best regards

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