The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 13. First shots

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The battle of the "Varangian" in the literature is described in sufficient detail, but nevertheless we will try to maximize the details of the events that took place over time, including a description of the damage that the Varangian received as they were received. We will use Japanese time, which differs from Russian in Chemulpo, for 35 minutes: for example, Asama opened fire on the Varyag at 11.45 in Russian and at 12.20 in Japanese time. Why so unpatriotic? The only way to unify with the battlefield scheme is that there are a huge number of them "on the Internet", but one of the very high-quality ones is the one presented by respected A.V. Polutov in his book "The landing operation of the Japanese army and fleet in February 1904 in Incheon, ”and in it the author adheres to Japanese time.



11.45 "All up, with an anchor off!".

11.55 "Varyag" and "Korean" were removed from the anchor and went past the English and Italian cruisers to the exit from the raid. "Korean" followed the "Varyag" in the wake, behind the cruiser by about 1-1,5 kablontov.

The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 13. First shots


12.00 Fired an alarm.


"Varyag" and "Koreyets" go to battle


12.05 Sotokichi Uriu receives a message from Chiyoda that Varyag and Koreets have left the raid and are moving along the fairway.

12.10 Information “Chiyoda” confirms the cruiser “Asama”.

It must be said that the Japanese commander did not expect such a turn of events at all, and in general, it should be noted the strange behavior of S. Uriu before the start of the bout. The fact is that the Rear Admiral drew up a battle plan in case the Varyag broke into the sea - without going into details, which we will consider later, let us just say that S. Uriu intended to build his ships in three echelons in such a way that the breakthrough " Varyag "had to deal consistently with each of them. This plan was set out and communicated to the commanders of the Japanese ships by order No. XXUMX, part of which is devoted to the actions of the Japanese squadron in the event that the Russian stationaries remain in the roadstead, we have already quoted earlier.

So, strictly speaking, if you already decided, and yes even an order from afar, it would be logical to take positions in advance, very early in the morning. Indeed, after the delivery of the ultimatum of V.F. Rudnev should have expected the exit of the Russian ships at any moment. It would be difficult to do this after the release of “Varyag”, because, for example, from Fr. Harido, around which the Japanese ships stood, and to the islands of Humann (Sobal), where the position of Nanivi and Niitaki was assigned, the distance is about 8 miles, while from the Varyag berth to O Phalmido (Yodolmi) - no more xnumx miles Accordingly, there was no way, finding the Russian cruiser on the fairway, to have time to anchor and reach the position, especially since S. Uriu expected from “Varyag” a speed of at least 6,5 nodes (the author was mentioned that the Japanese commander believed that Russian cruiser will break one, without the gunboat). It is obvious that Naniwa and Niitaka did not have the opportunity to develop such speed, so the plan of S. Uriu could be fulfilled only with the advance deployment. Nevertheless, the Japanese ships remained at anchor near the island of Harido. Then, on 20, the commander of "Chiyoda" Murakami arrived on the flagship cruiser, where he reported to the rear admiral:

"At the time I left the anchorage on the Russian ships, the situation remained unchanged, and by all indications they are not going to leave the anchorage of Incheon."


Apparently, this finally convinced S. Uriu that the Russians would not go for a breakthrough, so he immediately ordered the commanders of the ships not to be promoted to the positions indicated in order No. XXUMX to his special order. But it did not follow: instead, S.Uriu summoned the commander of “Hayabus” (the destroyer of the 30 squadron) in order to clarify with him the plan of attack of “Varyag” and “Koreyets” in Chemulpo raid ... And suddenly , he is told that the Russian ships are going for a breakthrough.

12.12 Two minutes later, after confirming “Asamy” that “Varyag” and “Koreyets” are on the fairway, Sotokichi Uriu orders an emergency withdrawal from the anchor. The commanders of Hayabus and Chiyoda were forced to hastily leave the Naniwa and return to their ships. Cruisers had no time to raise anchors - the anchor chains had to be riveted, only to make a move faster. Naturally, the Japanese rear admiral’s plan, set forth in order No. XXUMX, “ordered to live long” —he could no longer be executed, so S. Uriu had to improvise on the go.

And what is interesting: all this confusion caused by the unexpected appearance of “Varyag”, the Japanese official historiography “Description of military operations at sea in 37-38. Meiji describes this:

“After receiving a signal of the exit of the Russian courts, Admiral Uriu immediately ordered the ships of his detachment to take their assigned places. When the order was executed and all were in full readiness, the Russian ships had already passed the northern tip of Fr. Yodolmi.


It seems to be not deceived in anything, but the general impression is that S. Uriu acted according to plan - meanwhile, there was nothing like that.

12.15 On the "Asam" riveted anchor chain.

12.12-12.20 One event has occurred, the exact time of which is unknown. V.F. Rudnev, in a report to the head of the Marine Ministry, describes him like this: “The admiral offered to give up with a signal, but did not receive a reply that the Japanese took for neglect of them.”

It is authentically known that Sotokichi Uriu treated Vsevolod Fedorovich with great respect - they did not raise any signal with an offer to surrender to Naniwa. This fact served as a reason to reproach VF Rudneva in a conscious lie: they say history on the offer of surrender and proud refusal came up with the commander of the "Varyag" for wit. To refute this statement, the author of this article can not. However, it should be borne in mind that around 12.12, already after the emergency order was ordered from the anchor, but before the opening of the fire, the Japanese flagship raised “Prepare for battle. Battle flags raise. " In addition, they raised on “Naniwa” “to follow the destination in accordance with the order” (this order was noticed and accepted for execution on “Takachiho” just in 12.20). It should also be noted that at that moment the distance between Varyag and Naniwa was quite large (according to the report of the Naniwa commander - 9 000 m or approximately 48,5 cables), and besides, Naniwa, apparently, partially closed "Asama". So it is not too surprising that the Russians, seeing that the Japanese flagship is raising numerous signals, read not what was actually raised, but what they expected to see - not the first, and not the last case in a combat situation. In other words, this phrase of the report, of course, could be a deliberate lie, but with the same success could be the result of a conscientious delusion. However, it is also possible that at Varyag they decided at all that this was a signal for surrender without even starting to disassemble it - just from the consideration “what else can they raise at the beginning of the battle?”.

12.20 "Asama" made a move and, at the same time, began sighting on the "Varyag" from a distance of 7 000 m (about 38 cable). The battle of 27 on January 1904 began. At this time, the “Asama” seemed to leave from the “Varyag”, having the latter on the sharp stern corners on the left, and the direction to the “Varyag” was such that the bow tower of the 203-mm guns could not act. According to V. Kataev, “Varyag” at the time of opening the fire saw “Asamu” on the right course angle 35 hail.

12.22 "Varyag" went beyond the territorial waters of Korea and opened fire back. However, in the interval between 12.20 and 12.22 a very interesting event took place, which is interpreted in quite different ways in different sources.

A.V. Polutov claimed that after the discovery of fire, “Varyag” increased the course (literally: ““ Varyag ”immediately answered, and increased the course”). Considering the fact that a respected historian was describing the battle according to Japanese sources, this can be considered the point of view of the Japanese side, but there is a nuance. A.V. Polutov provided translations of the “Battle Reports” - that is, reports of Japanese commanders on the fight, as well as a telegram from S. Uriu describing the 27 battle of January 1904, but they did not contain any reports on the increase in the speed of the Varyag after he opened fire. "Description of military operations at sea in 37-38. Meiji also does not contain anything like that. We in no case blame AV Half-heartedly in misinformation, we simply state that the source from which he took this information remains unclear to us.

On the other hand, V. Kataev in the book Korean in the Glory of Varyag. Everything about the legendary gunboat "writes that after the shells of the first Japanese volley fell," By a signal from the cruiser, the speed was reduced to 7 nodes. " Alas, V. Kataev also does not report from which source this information is taken, at the same time neither the reports or memoirs of V.F. Rudnev, neither “The Work of the Historical Commission”, nor the watch logs of both Russian ships (at least in the form available to the author of this article) do not report anything of the kind.

Thus, we have the statements of two respected historians who directly contradict each other, but at the same time we cannot confirm their words by sources. Who to believe? On the one hand, the work of A.V. Polutova is distinguished by a much deeper study of certain issues than is usually done by V. Kataev, and, frankly, the description of the 27 battle of January 1904 in the V. Kataev’s editorial board contains a number of errors that are absent in AV Polutova. But on the other hand, A.V. Polutov directly informed that he gives a description of the battle on the basis of Japanese documents, and this has its drawbacks - in a battle from fairly long distances, the actions of the enemy often seem to be completely different from what they really are.

Let's try to figure it out on our own, especially since the speed of the Varyag, which is going to break through, has long been a matter of discussion. As we said earlier, from the Varyag parking lot to Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi) was no more than 6,5 miles - considering that the cruiser made a move in 11.55 and taking into account the fact that, according to the watch journal “Varyag”, the traverse of Phalmido was made in 12.05 in Russian and, accordingly, in 12.40 in Japanese of time, the cruiser and the gunboat spent as much as 45 minutes to overcome this distance, that is, their average speed did not exceed 8,7 nodes. It should be borne in mind that we are not talking about the speed of Varyag and Koreans proper, since they were “helped” by a strong current, the speed of which probably reached the 4 nodes at the raid and reached the 3 nodes at. Phalmido In other words, the average speed of 8,7 nodes calculated by us is the sum of the speed of the ships and the current. However, as far as the author is aware, the direction of this flow did not quite coincide with the direction of the movement of the Varyag and the Korey, rather, it “pushed” the ships into the starboard at an angle of approximately 45 degrees from the stern. Thus, the Russian ships received additional acceleration on the one hand, but on the other they needed to take to the left in order not to be pulled down by the right side of the fairway, which reduced their speed relative to that which they would have developed in calm water, with the same machine speeds. Therefore, it is rather difficult to say exactly what kind of “own” speed the “Varyag” and “Korean” had and what the accompanying current gave them. But for our purposes this is not necessary, since to assess the maneuvering of Russian ships you need to know the “speed relative to land”, and not the reasons for which it was caused. Therefore, hereinafter we (unless explicitly stated otherwise) speaking about the speed of “Varyag” and “Korean”, we will have in view not the speed that the machines informed them, but the total, that is, given by both the machines and the current.

So, “Varyag” changed its speed in the interval between 12.20 and 12.22 and just about the same time came out of the territorial waters. That is up about. Phalmido had to walk about 3 for miles, and he went to 12.40 aboard the island, which means that the cruiser took 3-18 minutes to overcome the 20 miles. This corresponds to the average speed of 9-10 nodes and is very similar to the description of V. Kataev, who reported on the order from Varyag to keep the speed of 7 nodes. The fact is that the speed of ships in those years was measured by the number of revolutions of their cars, and the team from Varyag, of course, should not be understood as “keeping the speed of 7 nodes relative to about. Phalmido ", and how to" give the momentum to the machines corresponding to the speed of 7 nodes. " It was these 7 nodes, and plus the speed of the flow, that the very same 9-10 nodes that the Varyag and Koreets sent along the fairway to Fr. Phalmido

Since the 9-10 nodes calculated by us are larger than the average speed on the entire 8,7 route of nodes, it seems that AV is right. Polutov, and the cruiser after the first shots of the "Assam" still increased speed. But, nevertheless, in the opinion of the author of this article, V. Kataev is right after all, and Varyag is right after he’s fired at him, but he slowed down, but the point is this.



Given that the cruiser needed to go about 3,5 miles to the border of territorial waters, and it covered this distance in 25-27 minutes, its average speed was 7,8-8,4 knot. In 11.55, “Varyag” just left the anchor: only 10 minutes have passed since the “Anchor to be removed” order. If someone doubts, let us remember that in order to make a move later 8 minutes after the order, “Asame” needed to rivet the anchor chain - on the “Varyag”, as we know, nothing like this was done. Accordingly, in the 11.55, the Russian cruiser had just started moving, and in fact he needed time to accelerate: and it is unlikely that he immediately, even before leaving the raid, developed the aforementioned speed. Most likely, “Varyag” slowly defiled past “Talbot” and “Elba”, and only then began to accelerate, that is, he did some part of his way to the border of territorial waters at a speed lower than the 7,8-8,4 node, and then accelerated over these meanings. This is supported by the presentation of V. Kataev, who claims that even before the start of the battle, the Koreytsa machine had developed 110 revolutions per minute, that is, a gunboat of some kind was going at the maximum speed for itself (in the test tests of the Korey developed 114 rpm.).

Here, however, the question arises. Passport speed "Koreans" - 13,5 nodes, and if he developed such a speed only through the machines, then it turns out that the gunboat was on the fairway (taking into account the additional speed of the flow) on 16-16,5 nodes? Of course not, but the fact is that we don’t know what the maximum speed Korean Koren 27 could develop in January 1904. On tests, with a displacement of 1 213,5 tons, the boat developed an 114 node at an average of 13,44 turns, but it was 17 years before the events described, and, most likely, the displacement of the Koreyts before the battle was much more than the tests were carried out (the ship’s total displacement under the project was 1 335 t, and what was it in reality on the day of the battle?) Therefore, it is very likely that immediately after withdrawal from yak “Varyag” and “Koreyets” moved very slowly, then, after leaving the raid, gradually accelerated, possibly to 13,5-14 nodes, but then, going beyond the limits of territorial waters and joining the battle, they slowed down to 9-10 nodes and that is how they went to traverse about. Phalmido

It must be said that all this reconstruction is entirely on the author’s conscience, dear readers may accept his version, or may not. The only fact for which you can vouch firmly, is that from the beginning of the battle and to the abeam, Fr. Phalmido "Varyag" and "Korean" went at a speed of no more than 9-10 nodes.

Movement with such a low speed was one of the many reasons for reproaching Vsevolod Fyodorovich Rudnev that he didn’t intend to break into the sea and didn’t want to conduct a serious fight at all, but only wanted to designate a breakthrough, to slightly retreat and quickly retreat, to save the honor of the uniform, and at the same time to risk life at the minimum. Those who tend to blame VF Rudnev, in neglect of duty, seems to be quite right in saying that at such a speed they go anywhere, but not for a breakthrough. Those who continue to consider Vsevolod Fedorovich a worthy commander usually appeal to opponents that it would be wrong to develop a high speed on a narrow fairway, and even in a combat situation, since it would be easy to run aground. As an example, the French cruiser “Admiral Gadon” is usually described as having crashed on the rocks near about. Phalmido (Yodolmi) in a completely peaceful environment, as well as the accident of the Tsubame destroyer, who was trying to pursue the Koreyian at full speed on the day of his failed departure to Port Arthur.

Usually these examples are counter-arguments, referring to Chiyoda's launch at sea from 25 to 26 on January 1904, because if the Russian cruiser took 45 minutes in broad daylight to get from Chemulpo raid to Fr. Phalmido, then the Japanese ship - only 35 minutes on a dark, moonless night (Chiyoda was anchored in 23.55). And this is despite the fact that “Chiyoda” only once passed this fairway, while the navigator of “Varyag”, E.A. Berens went to them 5 once - three times on the cruiser and twice - on the Korean. All of the above, in the opinion of many lovers of the history of naval fleets, is precisely the evidence that the Varyag, having the wish of its commander, could move along the fairway much faster.

What can be said in response to this? Yes, indeed, there is a fact - the cruiser "Chiyoda", having in its "asset" only one single passage through the fairway, really passed the second time from the raid to about. Phalmido for 35 minutes. Moonless night And, apparently, his commander and navigators gained the necessary experience during this exit, as well as an understanding of the dangers of following the Chemulpo channel at relatively high speeds. Nothing else can explain the fact that after a little more than a day, the same “Chiyoda”, released on the morning of January 27 (on the day of the battle with “Varyag”) from the same raid, was able to join S.Uriu's squadron only two hours after leaving the raid. Just read the “Battle Report” of the cruiser commander: “In 08.30, February 9 (January 27 old style) left Chemulpo’s anchorage and in 10.30 joined the 4 combat squad off the island of Philip” - the latter is next to Fr. Harido, in 3 miles from Fr. Phalmido, and the squadron S. Uriu was located between these three islands. In other words, having once passed the Chemulpo channel on 12, perhaps even 13 nodes in the dark, the commander of Chiyoda Murakami did not even want to repeat the previous “record” in the morning light ...

It is quite probable that, with a certain success, the Chemulpo channel would have been able to slip through the day and on the 20 nodes, the theoretical prerequisites for this, probably, were. But at the same time, according to the author, the movement at speeds greater than 12, the maximum - 13 nodes represented a danger to the ship going into battle. Even a short-term loss of control could lead to the fact that the cruiser will go beyond the fairway and sit on the stones.

Thus, we have two common versions: V.F. Rudnev did not develop high speed, because he did not want to engage in a decisive battle, and that VF Rudnev did not develop high speed, because he was afraid to put the "Varyag" on the stones. With all due respect to those who express it, the author of this article believes that both of them are wrong.

More precisely: we will never know what Vsevolod Fyodorovich Rudnev thought when performing this or that action, deed. However, the author of this series of articles is ready to offer a third one, in addition to the existing two versions, internally consistent and fully explaining the behavior of the Varyag commander. This will not prove that the first two versions are wrong (again, we will never know the true motives of Vsevolod Fedorovich), but, according to the author, his version will at least have the same right to life as the others.

V.F. Rudnev was the commander of the 1 rank combat ship, and, of course, being a professional military man, he had to somehow plan a future battle. Any planning comes from assumptions about what will be achieved, and how the enemy will act in the upcoming battle. The goal of the Japanese was completely clear - to destroy the Russian stationary. But there were several ways in which this could be achieved. The first, and easiest, Japanese squadron could simply “plug” the exit from the fairway at about. Phalmido That is, the first 6 miles from the Chemulpo raid, Russian ships were doomed to go along a rather narrow channel, on the island, this channel would lead Russian ships to a fairly wide reach. So Sotokichi Uriu could easily arrange his ships so as to block the exit from the fairway, concentrating the fire of his six cruisers on it. In this case, for the “Varyag” and the “Korean” going to the breakthrough, everything would have ended very quickly.

As is known, the side salvo of six Japanese cruisers totaled 4 * 203-mm, 23 * 152-mm and 9 * 120-mm guns. And it would be possible to counter them with perhaps no more 4 guns from the Varyag and one, possibly two Korean Koren 203 guns - moving along the fairway towards the Japanese ships could not be fired with full onboard volleys. Given the level of training of the Varyag artillerymen, it would have been easy to predict the outcome of such a confrontation.

But on the other hand, reach in about. Phalmido was narrow, and concentrating 6 cruisers there so that they could fire on the fairway at the same time would be a very difficult task. The ships of the Japanese would have to either maneuver the smallest course, or even anchor at all, and then the Russian stationery had the opportunity, having developed a large course, to quickly get close to the enemy.

If the Japanese used similar tactics, then V.F. Rudnev would not have gained anything by walking along the fairway at a slow speed - on the contrary, the only way to inflict any harm on the enemy would be to quickly get close to him, at a distance from which the Russian commandos are (very fast!) the deaths of the "Varangian" and "Korean" could provide a somewhat significant number of hits in Japanese ships. In such a collision, the gunboat could do much harm to the Japanese - if they focus their fire on the most dangerous Varyag and let the Korean come closer, even a few hits of heavy 203-mm shells could cause minor damage (with the exception of Asama) ) Japanese cruisers. Of course, today we know that, taking into account the quality of Russian shells, such calculations could not be justified, but the Russian naval officers were confident in their weapons and then they could hardly have thought otherwise.

In other words, if S. Uriu chose the tactics of blocking the exit from the fairway by superior forces, then Varyag and Koreans should have reached a breakthrough jointly, and then, convinced of the enemy’s intentions, developed full speed in order to move closer with him.

The second option was to disperse the squadron in the reach, and S. Uriu wanted to do so, but he did not succeed. On the "Varyag" saw the Japanese cruisers, mobbing at about. Harido, it was clear that they were not dispersed, so we will not consider such a disposition of the Japanese forces.



And, finally, the third reasonable tactic “for the Japanese” was to defeat the Russian ships on the way out. In order to understand this, let's spend some time on the geography of the “battlefield”. Alas, in all battle schemes, usually only a small fragment of it is transmitted, the breathtaking fairway from Chemulpo and oh. Phalmido, where, in fact, the hostilities unfolded, but in order to deal with the situation in which Varyag landed, a larger map was needed. Of course, there are lots, like, for example, this one, but not everyone will have the patience to deal with such a detailed map.



Therefore, we will proceed more simply and give a brief description of the possible routes for the Varyag to break into the sea. So, first, as we said earlier, the “Varyag” needed to overcome the fairway separating the Chemulpo raid from the reach starting at about. Phalmido - for this the cruiser needed to go 6 miles from the beginning of the fairway (and, approximately, 6,5 miles from the place of its anchorage), and then the "Varyag" went to a fairly wide reach. But on this breakthrough "Varyag" just started.

Very primitive, this reach can be described as a triangle stretching from south-west to north-east, while its base was in the south-west, and the top rested on o. Phalmido in the northeast. Three channels departed from the base of the triangle, with which it was possible to go to sea - the West, the Flying Fish Channel and the East Channel. In the middle of this triangle there was a rather large island (on the map above it is designated as Marolles, although the author does not vouch for the first two letters), and in order for Varyag to go to one of these straits, it had to go around this island with north or south. Around the island from the north one could take the shortest route to the Western Canal or the Flying Fish Channel, but to get to the Eastern Channel, one had to bypass the island from the south.

Flying Fish and East-West were relatively shallow for breakthrough “Varyag” and were intended for light-tonnage vessels.

So, S. Uriu ships were located at about. Harido, that is, near the top of our triangle-reach. And if they had found the Varyag on the fairway, made a move and would have gone roughly parallel to the breaking through Varyag course towards the island of Marolles, they would have put the Russian ships in a completely hopeless situation. The fact is that in this case the Varyag would have been at their stern, on sharp course corners and on it could have “worked” the artillery of all six Japanese cruisers, which during such a movement would not be hampered. In this case, "Varyag" would have to catch up with S. Uriu's squadron. The Varyag could not break through bypassing Marolles from the north - the Japanese squadron cut off the road to it, it only remained to go around Marolles from the south and try to break through the East Strait into the sea. But from about. Phalmido to Marolles - about 9 miles, and, bypassing Marolles from the south, "Varyag" had to go through the narrowness between Marolles and Yung Hung Do island, which did not exceed 3 miles.

Suppose Varyag gives 20 nodes in the fairway and goes for a breakthrough. The Japanese, seeing the Russian cruiser on the fairway, head for Marolles ahead of the Varyag on 15-3 miles at speeds in 4 nodes. To the isles Humann (Soobol), which are right between Marolles and Yung Hung Do, the Russians go 12-13 miles, and Varyag on 20 nodes will make this way in 35-40 minutes. It’s only 9 miles to go to Humann before the Japanese, and after 35-40 minutes they will be on these islands at the same time as Varyag. That is, it turns out that if S. Uriu chooses to fight on a withdrawal, and the Varyag rushes into a breakthrough on 20 nodes, then the Russian cruiser will first have to go 30-40 minutes under the fire of most (if not all) of the cruisers S. Uriu, but then it will be in the three-mile strait at the same time as the Japanese squadron. And even if, by some miracle, an armored-deck Russian cruiser can survive such a neighborhood, then 6 miles from the Humann islets before the start of the Eastern Strait, even if some Japanese cruisers start lagging behind, then they can still fire “Asama” will be able to “accompany” the “Varyag” without any problems while moving with it side by side. Hardly anyone on the Varyag doubted that the Japanese armored cruiser could develop 20 units ...

In general, with such a Japanese tactic, Varyg had no chances; worse, an attempt at an “20-nodal” breakthrough led to a rather fast and, in general, senseless death of a cruiser. But in order to make war longer and sell your life at a higher price, you had to act differently: you should not chase after the Japanese squadron, but you had to let it go ahead. Did the Japanese go to Marolles? Good riddance, in this case, "Varyag" should reduce the course and try to pass under the stern of the Japanese ships. It would not have helped to break through, but at least in this case the Japanese could no longer shoot the Varyag with the whole squadron, because their trailers would interfere with the lead, and the Varyag could reach the end artillery of the entire board. The chances of a breakthrough are zero, the chances of winning are zero, but the possibility of holding out longer and inflicting more damage on the Japanese gave such an option.

That's just for this it was necessary not to fly, headlong, on 20 nodes on the enemy squadron, but rather go slower than the Japanese cruisers and skip them ahead.

What did Vsevolod Fyodorovich Rudnev saw when the Japanese opened fire? The fact that their cruisers are still immobile, with the exception of the “Assam”, which leaves from Father Palmido and leads into battle, turning astern to the Russian ships. That is, apparently, S. Uriu still preferred to fight on a withdrawal, as their strongest ship retreats. But, on the other hand, the rest of the Japanese cruisers have not yet shown their intentions, and it would be nice to let them do this even before reviewing them will override Fr. Phalmido

In other words, by slowing down, Vsevolod Fedorovich solved several tactical tasks at once. He could still watch the armored decks of the Japanese cruisers for some time in order to determine their intentions precisely when they finally made their turn. But at the same time, the distance to the “Naniwa” and others was too great for aimed shooting, so, slowing down the speed of V.F. Rudnev did not risk falling under the concentrated fire of the entire squadron - and so it actually happened. Well, then, as the distance was reduced, between “Varyag” and “Korean” on the one hand, and “Naniwa”, “Chiyoda”, “Takachiho”, “Niitaka” and “Akashi” would have turned to Fr. Thus, for some time the fight with the Japanese squadron would have been reduced to a fight between Varyag and Asami, and this would also be in the interests of the Russian ships - although not fighting a whole squadron to fight, again, this is a chance to hold out longer, inflict Japanese more damage. And if the Japanese flagship, without sorting out at what speed the Varyag is making a breakthrough, still leads its ships to the Marolles, then there is a good chance after leaving because of Fr. Phalmido pass under the stern ... In addition, one could expect that the gunners of "Assam", believing that the "Varyag" was flying at all pairs, and not expecting such a small speed from him would not immediately understand what was happening, and they would take wrong sight (which, again, really happened!). And finally, the 9-11 nodes, this is just the standard speed of Russian ships in pre-war firing. It is clear that the commanders of "Varyag" are not too skillful, so at least give them the opportunity to shoot at the usual conditions for themselves - perhaps, and get into someone ...

In other words, there are many reasons to reduce the course after “Asama” determined its intentions by bringing “Varyag” to the sharp aft corner - and none of them is connected with the desire to “keep away from the battle” or “not engage in a decisive battle. " But what would VF give? Rudnev 20 nodal jerk? Well, the Varyag would have flown at full speed due to Fr. Phalmido on the Japanese squadron, which just took off from the anchors and they would have shot him point-blank. The rapprochement with the enemy cruisers made some sense only if the Koreans could also develop 20 nodes and "fly out of the island" along with the Varyag, then his 203-mm guns could say their weighty word. But “Korean” couldn’t do anything of this kind, he couldn’t even support the “Varyag” that rushed forward with fire, because he would be disturbed by Fr. Phalmido In the end, heroically rushing forward, V.F. Rudnev would have put his unit in pieces under defeat, not giving him a chance to cause damage to the enemy. And today, numerous critics would write about the tactically illiterate headache — Rudnev, who for the sake of external effects (what a heroic tug on the enemy on a cruiser, whose mechanisms breathe for incense, and even through a narrow fairway!) Shamefully “leaked” the battle .. .

All of the above indisputably testifies to one thing - the movement of Varyag and Koreans at a speed of 9-10 nodes at the beginning of the battle is tactically literate, and at that moment, perhaps, the only right decision aimed primarily at causing the Japanese damage while minimizing your losses.

To be continued ...
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  1. +5
    27 September 2018 05: 30
    Thanks to the author for another interesting material!
    1. -3
      27 September 2018 17: 47
      Strangely lengthy arguments of the author about a breakthrough "under the stern." Where to break through then? In a "flying fish" or what? No, well, if you completely slow down and wait until the fools-Japanese themselves go to the eastern channel, then the author's fantasy will, of course, come true. Provided that the Japanese do not know what a reverse course is.
      The Varyag's only chance is a high-speed breakthrough into the eastern channel, while the Japanese are not anchored. But for this, you need a speed of at least 23 knots (along with the current).
      If Rudnev, not sure about the CMU of his cruiser, then succumbing at low speed, under fire of superior enemy forces, is Rudnev’s complete incompetence as a ship commander. As a result, more than a hundred sailors and officers paid for this incompetence.
      And in general, the main and main reason for the defeat of Russia in that war was the total (with rare exceptions), unsuitability of the middle (starting from the commander of the ship and regiment) and higher (to the commanders of armies and squadrons) command personnel.
      The fight at Chemulpo is an excellent, albeit small in scale, example of the above. Complete defeat, with subsequent transfer of equipment to the enemy, without the slightest damage to the latter.
      1. +8
        27 September 2018 19: 45
        Quote: Jura 27
        Strangely lengthy arguments of the author about the breakthrough "under the stern." Where to break through then? In a "flying fish" or what?

        Didn’t you try to read the article? :) Yura, are you unable to realize what is written in Russian? Especially for you, I quote the corresponding fragment of the article. Try to overpower, I believe in you and even highlight in bold so that you understand
        Did the Japanese go to Marolles? Good riddance, in this case, the "Varangian" should have reduced speed and tried to pass under the stern of Japanese ships. It would not help to break throughbut, at least in this case, the Japanese could no longer shoot the “Varyag” with the entire squadron, because their end would interfere with the head, and the “Varyag”, going out to the reach, could trust to act as artillery of the entire side. The chances of a breakthrough are zero, the chances of victory are zero, but this option gave the chance to hold out longer and inflict more damage on the Japanese.

        Well, as for the rest of your maxim - you will excuse me, but if you are not able to read several sheets of the A4 format, then it is not for you to talk about the competence of Russian naval commanders in that war
        1. -7
          27 September 2018 21: 43
          "The chances of a breakthrough are zero, the chances of winning are zero, but this option gave the opportunity to hold out longer and inflict more damage on the Japanese." - the rarest stupidity!
          Rudnev did not know where the Japanese were waiting for him. Therefore, he simply could not plan anything, nor evaluate his chances. Just guess.
          1. +1
            28 September 2018 00: 56
            Quote: Oleg Fudin
            - the rarest stupidity!

            So why are you showing it here? :)
            Quote: Oleg Fudin
            Rudnev did not know where the Japanese were waiting for him.

            Yeah, I didn’t know :))) Japanese ships just could not be seen from the raid :))) Actually, it was possible to assume what would happen without seeing the enemy, and the Japanese and Russians saw each other even before the Varangian left territorial waters
        2. 0
          29 September 2018 14: 58
          [/ quote] Have you tried to read the article? :)

          Have you tried to think before writing nonsense in your articles?
          Why would the terminal interfere with the head? If the Russians were to the left aft, the more so because the main lethal force of the Yapes was in the tail.
          And where should the "Varyag" be trusted? Left, straight to the island? Or right, straight to another island?
          To hold out longer, under fire of significantly superior enemy forces, means to receive more damage and losses in personnel (which happened in real life), i.e. this is the incompetence of the Varyag commander.
          And competence is the minimum time spent under fire and the maximum difficulty for the enemy to shoot accurately, again, using his only advantage - speed and maneuver at speed.
          If you are not sure of achieving high speed, there is nothing to protrude from the port, under the explicit shooting of significantly superior enemy forces.

          it’s not for you to talk about the competence of Russian naval commanders in that war [quote]

          Give valuable instructions to your wife how to cook borsch. I don’t need them, from the word at all.
          1. +3
            30 September 2018 17: 46
            Quote: Jura 27
            Give valuable instructions to your wife how to cook borsch.

            My wife knows how to do this very well, and does not need my instructions. Moreover, I do not know how to cook borscht as good as she is.
            Quote: Jura 27
            I don’t need them, from the word at all.

            Yura, you really need it. Unfortunately, your current level of ownership of the subject does not even allow you to evaluate how much.
      2. 0
        1 October 2018 06: 10
        Quote: Jura 27
        The Varyag's only chance is a high-speed breakthrough into the eastern channel, while the Japanese are not anchored. But for this, You need a speed of at least 23 knots (along with the flow).
        If Rudnev, not sure about the CMU of his cruiser, then to fly at low speed, under fire of superior enemy forces, is Rudnev’s complete incompetence as a ship commander.

        "Korean" January 27, 1904. In tests, with a displacement of 1 tons, the boat at 213,5 revolutions developed on average 13,44 node, but it was 17 years before the events described,

        They forgot to wear the hydrofoils on the Koreyets - throw stones at Rudnev for that.
        Comparing TWO figures is apparently simply not handy, otherwise fantastic plans would not have appeared.

        PS
    2. -6
      27 September 2018 21: 22
      Not historical research, but sheer blah blah.
      1. +6
        27 September 2018 21: 25
        Quote: Oleg Fudin
        Not historical research, but sheer blah blah.

        Maybe write better? Refute it again?
        1. -2
          30 September 2018 12: 11
          Yes, I will. Not better and not worse, but how to.
  2. +7
    27 September 2018 06: 39
    Hmm !!! It's strange, but the author for some reason believes that the Japanese commandos are completely sniper! It’s worth remembering the Retvisan spurt along which the weighing squadron fired and the first detachment where the best commandos were gathered, how many hits did he receive? Two or three I do not remember exactly. And Uriu was by no means the best crew. In addition, dear Andrei, you yourself at the beginning of the article claim that the Japanese did not wait for our ships ... But the Varyag’s reduced speed just makes it possible to calmly make a sighting for the Japanese cruisers, which basically happened
    1. +8
      27 September 2018 06: 59
      Quote: Nehist
      Hmm !!! It's strange, but the author for some reason believes that the Japanese commandos are completely sniper!

      But what, you need to be a sniper in order to throw enough hits throughout the squadron during an hour of battle, when distances are reduced to 10-15 kbt? :)))
      Quote: Nehist
      It’s worth remembering the Retvisan spurt along which the weighing squadron fired and the first detachment where the best commandos were gathered, how many hits did he receive?

      Retizan had nothing to do with it, since his jerk did not last very long and was unexpected for the Japanese, as for the number of hits, it is unknown, since only 23 are described from the 13 hits in the ship.
      Quote: Nehist
      In addition, dear Andrei, you yourself at the beginning of the article claim that the Japanese did not wait for our ships ...

      They did not expect, which did not prevent them from immediately weaning off the anchor and going into battle. For “Asama” this process took as much as 8 minutes :))) There was practically no delay, and “Asam” was ahead of “Varyag” by almost 40 cables.
      Quote: Nehist
      But the decrease in speed of the Varangians just makes it possible to calmly make a sighting for Japanese cruisers, which in principle happened

      A very strange observation - given that of all the Japanese cruisers, only Asama could shoot at the Varyag for the first 17 minutes of the battle (and he achieved the first hit just at the 17th minute), and Naniiva made several sighting shots without hitting anyone ... Varyag began to "rake" after leaving Yodolmi, but more on that later :)))
      1. +2
        27 September 2018 07: 21
        Well, Andrei, as if not chewing, people still argue. In the previous series there was an article about the Varyag’s car, and then the spelng wrote, go under the stern! Ehh.
        1. +7
          27 September 2018 07: 28
          Quote: prapor55
          Well, Andrei, as if not chewing, people still argue.

          But what about :)))) It always happens :))) Thank you for your kind words! drinks
          1. +4
            27 September 2018 08: 25
            Yes, I agree in the dispute truth is born, but you have given all possible options for events. This is just another read diagonally. You are one of not many authors who carefully read their articles before publication. hi
        2. +3
          27 September 2018 09: 07
          the topic itself is like that.
      2. +4
        27 September 2018 07: 24
        It's to blame, the 1 hit was in 15 minutes, not through 17 :))))
      3. 0
        1 October 2018 15: 36
        They did not wait, which did not stop them from immediately lifting anchor and going into battle.

        Chop off the anchors. Chop off. Unfasten chains
        Varyag began to "rake" after leaving Yodolmi, but more on that later :)))

        He started to "rake" when he dropped the move, going into a reversal. BEFORE that - 1 6 "hit
    2. +2
      27 September 2018 21: 40
      Join.
      With a fast approach due to a rapidly changing distance, the accuracy drops sharply. The centralized tip in these cases is not effective and the individual skill of the commandants comes first. In this case, it was the Russian commandants who should have had the advantage, since counter-ball firing was often practiced in the Russian Navy. The case with Retvisan confirms all this. The Japanese did not know how to shoot at a fast-changing target.
      1. +3
        28 September 2018 00: 59
        Quote: Oleg Fudin
        In this case, it was the Russian commandants who should have had the advantage, since counter-ball firing was often practiced in the Russian Navy. The case with Retvisan confirms all this.

        The case with Retvisan would confirm this if the Russians in this episode shot better than the Japanese. But - this is bad luck, it was in the second phase of the battle that the Russians fired at LM much worse than in the first phase, at long distances. Interesting, right? But fact
        1. 0
          30 September 2018 12: 10
          You twist and twist again. If you can’t understand the meaning of what I wrote, then I repeat: With a fast approach due to a rapidly changing distance, the accuracy of shooting drops sharply - on both sides.
          1. 0
            1 October 2018 07: 02
            Quote: Oleg Fudin
            You twist and twist again

            Nope. Learn to be responsible for your own bloopers and not to blame for the healthy. What did you write?
            Quote: Oleg Fudin
            In this case, it was the Russian commandants who should have had the advantage

            To which I replied to you, and now you change your shoes, they say
            Quote: Oleg Fudin
            With a fast approach due to a rapidly changing distance, the accuracy drops sharply - and on both sides

            In general, be a man and be able to answer for your mistakes
            1. 0
              1 October 2018 18: 12
              Nope. Learn to be responsible for your own bloopers and not to blame for the healthy.

              Yeah.
              I wrote about Retvizan. And you "But - that's bad luck, it was in the second phase of the battle in the ZhM that the Russians shot much worse than in the first phase, at long distances." - about the entire squadron. And what does everyone, except "Retvizan" have to do with this case? Yes, no. It's just your constant way of twisting someone else's text. Of course, a purely male occupation (in your understanding).
    3. 0
      1 October 2018 15: 34
      But the decrease in speed of the Varangians just makes it possible to calmly make a sighting for Japanese cruisers, which in principle happened

      That's right: it was in the U-turn that they got almost all the hits.
  3. +6
    27 September 2018 06: 50
    Grammar, literally on the shelves laid out everything. Thanks Andrew. hi
  4. +5
    27 September 2018 07: 14
    A.V. Polutov claimed that after the opening of the fire, the "Varangian" increased the course (literally: "The Varangian immediately answered, and increased the course").

    In no case do we reproach A.V. Polutova in disinformation, we simply state that the source from which he took the specified information remains unclear for us.


    One of the sources of this information is that the mine officer of the gunboat "Koreets" Aleksandr Levitsky below translated the battle scheme he had drawn up. Published in France in 1904 in the book "Descriptions of military operations at sea from 08 February to 04 July 1904."

    1. +3
      27 September 2018 07: 27
      Greetings, dear Igor!
      Honestly, I didn’t understand with the scheme - not only was it very sketchy, erroneous (the Japanese cruisers were not there at all), there’s nothing about speed request
      1. +3
        27 September 2018 07: 49
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Honestly, I didn’t understand with the circuit


        Good morning Andrey. In the description of the battle, A. Levitsky indicates that the gunboat "Koreets" was in front of the cruiser "Varyag". After opening fire, the cruiser Varyag increased its speed and overtook the Koreyets. On his diagram, he shows the locations of the Russian ships in relation to certain points in time 11-45, 12-00 and 12-30.
        Its accuracy is difficult to determine, he describes his vision of the battle.
        1. +2
          27 September 2018 20: 21
          Quote: 27091965i
          In the description of the battle, A. Levitsky indicates that the gunboat "Koreets" was in front of the cruiser "Varyag".

          Yes, that the Korean came out at some point ahead of the Varangian and it is indicated in the Belyaev report, but in general a fair amount of confusion is obtained. Either Varyag added a move and overtook the Korean, or on Varyag they raised to keep 7 nodes and did not add speed, or maybe reduced. I covered this point in the article in the sense that the question of whether the Varyag slowed down or added it to me is completely unclear, but the fact that, from the border of the thervod to Yodolmi, the Russian ships went about 9-10 knots along with the current
  5. +2
    27 September 2018 08: 10
    It's time, it's time for the author to take on a monograph hi
  6. +4
    27 September 2018 09: 03
    Oh oh oh. Wait, they started shooting ...
    Everything is good, one thing is bad - not enough! request
    An interesting version about speed. Not a mistake, not a weakness of the machines, but a calculation that didn’t pay off ... and so the whole war was like they did everything they could, but there were no results!
  7. +6
    27 September 2018 09: 06
    And the fairway is not very narrow, it’s like the Japanese pretzel is written out.
    Sailors Varyag
    1. +5
      27 September 2018 13: 36
      Quote: Avior
      And the fairway is not very narrow, it’s like the Japanese pretzel is written out.

      So they are not on the fairway, but on the stretch, the fairway ended at Phalmido-Iodolmi :)
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. -3
          27 September 2018 21: 48
          Not so long ago, polemicizing with me, the author of this opus (article) with claudia foam argued that the fairway there is not at all narrow and if you even flood the supertanker there, you can still drive it :))
          1. +3
            27 September 2018 22: 09
            Because the author clearly sees the difference between the complete blocking of the fairway and maneuvering on it. Especially with strong lateral flow. Especially at high speeds.
            1. 0
              30 September 2018 14: 20
              And who is talking about blocking the fairway?
              And why is this "lateral current" on it? This is where and where?
          2. +3
            28 September 2018 01: 00
            Quote: Oleg Fudin
            Not so long ago, polemicizing with me, the author of this opus (article) with claudia foam argued that the fairway there is not at all narrow and if you even flood the supertanker there, you can still drive it :))

            Because in its narrowest part, the width of the fairway still exceeded a kilometer. So the foam here is driving so far only you
            1. 0
              1 October 2018 18: 04
              Fear measured with a ruler. That is to say, "the office writes." But in fact, at the depths allowing the passage of the cruiser, the width of the fairway was 2 cab. - 370 m.
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
  8. +6
    27 September 2018 12: 29
    The article, as always, is a plus !! hi
    The key paragraph of this whole epic with the fight at Chemulpo is just the last in this material wink There was no option for a breakthrough, it turns out, because it is a priori impossible due to both objective reasons (the state of the Varyag's vehicles) and subjective (all the same trump cards are still in the hands of the Japanese - both location and fire advantage). Then it all comes down to so that it would be CORRECT to interpret the actions of Rudnev and call things by their proper names .... After all, all this confusion arose precisely because of the different interpretation of the actions of "Varyag". And they proceed from the achieved result, which turned out to be zero .. But it seems to me that it would be better to look further at Andrey's interpretation.
    Today I realized that Rudnev, along the way, did not think about a breakthrough, but thought only about how to harm the Japanese ... winked
    We look forward to continuing!
    Best regards hi
    1. +2
      27 September 2018 12: 42
      If he thought about causing damage, on the contrary he would approach with the greatest speed. Moreover, as a commander, he knew that the Konanirs didn’t shine with his accuracy, and the smaller the distance, the greater the chance of hitting an enemy and causing damage
      1. +4
        27 September 2018 12: 55
        I don’t argue, but just give an assessment of what Andrei wrote. Reread the last paragraph carefully hi
        Based on this, the Korean is already a key player - the Varyag commander needs to take the gunboat into position by his actions, when it will bring maximum benefit from its two 203-mm guns. And this is a direct course towards rapprochement with Asama. Only in this case will Rudnev's actions and the participation of the low-speed Koreyka in battle be tactically justified.
        PS The approach speed here looks according to the capabilities of the latter and, therefore, it is determined by the speed of the boat hi
      2. +3
        27 September 2018 13: 55
        Quote: Nehist
        If he thought about causing harm, on the contrary he would approach with the greatest speed

        No question, look at the results of such a rapprochement on the actual battle of the Varangian.
    2. -2
      27 September 2018 21: 27
      Along the way, Rudnev didn’t think about anything at all. Before the battle was a prayer service and there as God sends.
    3. PPD
      0
      6 November 2018 19: 09
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Rudnev, along the way, did not think about a breakthrough, but thought only about how to harm the Japanese ...

      Secretly dreamed, maximum. And then how about the far-impossible.
      Quote: Nehist
      If he thought about causing damage, on the contrary he would approach with the greatest speed. Moreover, he, as a commander, knew that the gunners did not shine with his accuracy, and the smaller the distance, the greater the chance of hitting an enemy and causing damage

      Only he had to be at a pistol distance so that the time of rapprochement was reduced to a couple of minutes, and even better to teleport. He had no invisibility headgear or invisibility cloak.
      Even the smoke of the veil still seemed to be gone. All this would not have helped him, but would have thrown it back.
      Moral comfort. The cruiser would have sank there. Alas..
  9. +5
    27 September 2018 13: 21
    Thanks to the author for another interesting and debatable material! In discussions, you often learn a lot of things that you will not find in stats))) Dear Andrey, the dispute master (t) but, therefore, I am surprised that he carries out the chosen position (to whitewash Rudnev) in all details! It would have been enough for 1-2 cardinal reasons (such as “there was no gunpowder in the fortress”))) And so it comes to funny phrases like:
    ... on the Varyag they decided that this was a signal of surrender, without even starting to disassemble it - just for the sake of "what else can they pick up at the beginning of the battle?"

    On the disposal of their ships, for the Russians there is nothing to think about)))
    But the “third version” of the low speed Varyag is very witty (as befits the author). Only such a sophisticated tactical plan, with numerous hypotheses of the options for enemy actions and its (Rudnev) answer, mind you, not for a breakthrough, butin order to fight longer and sell your life more expensive“Does not fit in with what we know about this officer. It’s much more prosaic to turn back (after the “battle”) at high speed in a narrow channel is dangerous. But for the Varangian it turned out that on the small ...
    And if Rudnev really thought “fight longer and sell your life more expensive“It was generally necessary to act differently, as expected Uriu (!) Because of which he missed the exit (where does he know the“ peculiarities of Russian heroism ”)
    Having missed the start of the war because of diplomats (who don’t care, they’re interned / exchanged) and fairly assessing the chances of a breakthrough as minimal, after the ultimatum of the Japanese, Rudnev should:
    1 To urge foreign hospitals to urgently leave the port, which is not “neutral” at all, but captured by the enemy and becomes the arena of military operations (Uriu also called for this).
    2. To use the stock of spherical barrage mines for all the ships at least once with benefit for such cases — to mine the fairway, say 2-3 miles from the parking lot and (possibly) at the entrance to the raid. Part of the mines (those at the entrance) should be set with a small indentation (against destroyers) It is possible to set there with a large one, it is generally impossible))). Regularly, the Varangian should have 33 pieces, but I don’t know how many actually, but usually the mines were transported to the fullest ... The Koreans should also have such. So, if you mine only the central part of the fairway (and who will be huddling against the plates), two banks are enough.
    3. Under the cover of the cannons and machine guns of the ships, land troops in the port, which burns the enemy’s warehouses and stockpiles (and equated with it)), destroys and spoils all port facilities that may be useful to the Japanese, drowns some scandals at the piers (if available), and scaffolds.
    4. At night (and it was then that Uriu intended to attack the destroyers) he would split up with the Korean. One ship (better Varyag) is on duty closer to the entrance with the lights off, and the other (Korean) being further on includes a searchlight for search. When illuminating the enemy, the Varangian suddenly shoots him with “direct fire”))), after which he changes his position in the (alas small) framework of the raid start.
    5. The next day, the Japanese of course trample in an artillery battle. Let's say they know about mines (or someone from the destroyers touched at night). Then the Varangian follows with max. possible distance by fire to prevent trawling attempts.
    6. How much you can hold out like that, I don’t know. At the end, you can explode. But in any case, the damage to the Japanese will be much greater (including from the port), and the crew’s losses are probably less. Yes, you won’t be able to go home on neutral ships, you’ll have to sit captive until the end of the war. Yes, and it is unlikely to reward, it is not accepted so in the Imperial Navy)). But this is a reasonable military behavior. True, for this, Rudnev needed to be smart as well, so generously attributed to him by the author in the “third version” in conjunction with the same desire to fight and “sell your life more expensive” (!)
    Sorry, a little long came out. And probably I'm wrong about something, but this is also an opportunity for discussion. And then usually the author’s logic is brilliant, it’s a pleasure to read, but to say something (except praise) is impossible)))
    1. +5
      27 September 2018 13: 52
      Quote: anzar
      doesn’t fit with what we know about this officer

      And what do you know about him? :)))
      Quote: anzar
      It’s much more prosaic to turn back (after the “battle”) at high speed in a narrow channel is dangerous.

      But Rudnev did not turn on the fairway :))) He passed the fairway, albeit at a low speed. So your version, alas, has no evidence, but mine is confirmed by further events, however, about everything in order and we will not get ahead of ourselves
      Quote: anzar
      To urge foreign hospitals to urgently leave the port, which is not “neutral” at all, but captured by the enemy and becomes the arena of military operations (Uriu also called on them).

      First, the port is NOT SEIZED. Korea is formally a sovereign state, and the fact that Japan has declared war on Russia does not make it "captured". The Japanese presented explanations for the presence of their ground forces on the territory of Korea, the Koreans did not mind :)))) But in any case, the landing of Japanese troops is a matter for Japan and Korea, and Chemulpo does not make any "arena of hostilities" for other powers.
      Quote: anzar
      Use at least once with advantage the transport stock of spherical mines for all ships on such ships

      Which, alas, were not on the Varyag, because if there were such, the Japanese would certainly have removed them from the cruiser and sent them to the arsenals. Meanwhile, their documents do not contain anything like that.
      But, let's say, there were still mines. How are you going to install them? :))) Are you aware that the ships could not do this on their own? That for this we needed specialized floating craft called "mine raft"? :) Which still had to be built, loaded with mines, and placed on them - which, even with building materials, could not have been done before the ultimatum expired. And there were no building materials yet ...
      In general, for a flight of fancy, of course, a plus, but for knowledge of the materiel ...
      1. +1
        27 September 2018 14: 20
        and it does not make Chemulpo any "arena of military action" for other powers.

        So, in your opinion, it is possible for the Japanese to fight on a "neutral" raid (ultimatum to Uriu), but not for the Russians?
        Meanwhile, their documents contain nothing of the kind.

        Those that contain high explosive 75mm? And there was corned beef in barrels)))) And in Korean? (blown up, it’s unknown) It turns out that they were on ALL Russian ships, but on the Varyag ... Not otherwise than Rudnev sold them as unnecessary (he is a business man)))
        That for this they needed specialized floating craft called "mine raft"?

        Of course, but I think these either existed, or it is possible from yalov, otherwise why did ALL ships carry them? And there is time, Uriu did not intend to break into the port at night with cruisers.
        In general, for a flight of fancy, of course, plus

        Thank you for yours too, and for the interesting discussion.
        1. +2
          27 September 2018 17: 19
          Anzar, do you seriously think that sea mines are needed to blow up the Koreyets? And stupidly setting fire to ammunition is not an option? Or take Perelman's Entertaining Physics and read: what are the options for an explosion to cause
          1. 0
            27 September 2018 19: 26
            Anzar, do you seriously think that sea mines are needed to blow up the Koreyets?

            You don’t understand, it’s about the fact that because of the explosion it is impossible (according to Japanese reports) to establish whether there were mines and how many.
        2. +1
          27 September 2018 17: 58
          [/ quote] Those that contain a high-explosive 75mm? [quote]

          In fairness, it should be said that the Yapas called them: "high-explosive, Russian model." That is, they are probably cast iron shells. It turns out that they had an explosive and a fuse, or what?
      2. 0
        27 September 2018 14: 36
        Dear Andrey, already tired of reading about Korea's "neutrality", you yourself wrote that it does not exist (as well as sovereignty). The territories of both Korea and China (Manchuria) became the arena of hostilities in this war, the fact that these states themselves did not take part does not make their territory "neutral"
        1. +3
          27 September 2018 15: 06
          And this is a commonplace policy issue. Korea, one might say, has already turned into a satellite of Japan, and if necessary, would have taken the position necessary for the Japanese. So the violation of neutrality (no matter how ghostly it may be) by the Japanese, and the violation of neutrality by the Russians are three big differences. Similarly, if off the coast of some Zimbabwe, Soviet fishermen are poaching. or American, there is a big difference if Zimbabwe is ruled by the local Communist Party or some kind of el president appointed by the CIA smile Of course, the Russians could ignore the neutrality of Korea, and most likely there would be no big complications from this - this is not the Gull incident, and there, too, no one declared war on us, but according to the concepts of that time such actions were a bad move.
          1. +2
            27 September 2018 15: 27
            Of course, the Russians could ignore the neutrality of Korea ...

            A colleague Artem, in real life the Russians did so and fought with the Japanese, but there weren’t enough available forces in Korea and they left the river Yalu.
            And we can say that both sides violated (soft word)) sovereignty Korea and China, not the "neutrality" of their governments (against which they did not fight)) But how can such "neutrality" justify the unwillingness to fight?
            1. +2
              27 September 2018 15: 33
              in real life, the Russians did so and fought with the Japanese

              After the neutrality of Korea was clearly ignored by the Japanese. In the case of "Varyag" there was no such reason yet - the landing of the Japanese troops in Chemulpo was not such. Actually, the attack of the "Varyag" on the roadstead would become a reason for the "Varyag" to ignore the neutrality of Korea, and then there would be no complaints against it))) But the battle on the roadstead, due to the alignment of forces and geography, in the case of the "Varyag" was would be so much fun, and not the fact that with a very different outcome.
              But how can such "neutrality" justify unwillingness to fight?

              Colleague, "unwillingness to fight", IMHO, far-fetched reason, simply because reality is ALWAYS much more complicated. There are almost no simple answers in history, and "unwillingness to fight" is one of the simplest and most gallant answers of all that exists in nature. Only the beginning of raising cowardice or other qualities to the rank of a national trait is cooler.
              1. +1
                27 September 2018 16: 04
                Actually, the attack of the "Varyag" on the roadstead would become a reason for the "Varyag" to ignore the neutrality of Korea, and then there would be no complaints against him)))

                This is probably the most important thing, to whom there will be claims)))) But what about the ultimatum Uriu, in which he directly states this? Are you suggesting not to believe and "not to succumb to provocations"?
                Steeper is only the beginning of raising cowardice or other qualities to the rank of a nationwide trait

                And where did you get that? On the contrary, cowardly generally act more reasonably. And that's what they call it- Crazy courage))
                1. 0
                  27 September 2018 16: 15
                  Quote: anzar
                  But what about the ultimatum Uriu, in which he directly states this? Are you suggesting not to believe and "not to succumb to provocations"?

                  Oh, the Uriu ultimatum is nothing new or special in politics and diplomacy, where all means are good. Even threats. Especially threats - from time immemorial, one of the favorite ways to make a conditional adversary do the way you want smile
                  Quote: anzar
                  And where did you get that?

                  And this is not about you, I’ve talked about the most beloved simple answers on the Internet.
              2. 0
                27 September 2018 21: 32
                And the Korean torpedo attack the day before - is not a reason to ignore neutrality?
                1. 0
                  27 September 2018 21: 37
                  No, not a reason, because it was not proved (at that time), and it happened at the exit from the raid.
                  1. 0
                    30 September 2018 14: 17
                    Where not proven, in court, or what? The exit from the raid was the territorial waters of Korea, i.e. neutral waters.
              3. +2
                28 September 2018 02: 44
                The landing of the Japanese landing was precisely a violation of Korea’s neutrality, all the more so not long before that Nikolai the second, during the reception of the foreign ambassadors publicly declared that this would be a whitewash. Which incidentally was published in newspapers
                1. +2
                  28 September 2018 07: 08
                  Quote: Nehist
                  The landing of the Japanese landing was just a violation of the neutrality of Korea

                  No, I wasn’t. And you always interfere with Korea’s neutrality and the interests of foreign powers in it. The first could be violated, the second - no.
                  Nicholas II, while receiving foreign ambassadors publicly stated that this would be a whitewash.

                  Yeah. And then he ordered not to interfere with the landing, if it would occur in Chemulpo or south of it wassat
        2. +1
          27 September 2018 19: 40
          Quote: anzar
          Dear Andrey, already tired of reading about Korea's "neutrality", you yourself wrote that it does not exist

          And if you remember this, then remember that Korea’s neutrality in itself didn’t concern anyone, but the violation of foreign interests in Korea by the British and others worried very much. In simple terms, that Bailey was ready to dismiss his ally, who defended the interests of Great Britain in this war, he would not let down the Russian ship - and formally the British had every reason for this
          Quote: anzar
          Those that contain high explosive 75mm?

          Yes, those that the Japanese called high-explosive shells. And what bothers you here? :))) The Japanese rightly pointed out that this is a shell. They also rightly noted that this projectile has a caliber 75 mm. But the fact that they found it high explosive, speaks only about some specific features of the Japanese classification, that's all.
          1. 0
            28 September 2018 02: 48
            Andrei, yes, Bailey would not have interfered with Rudnev from the word no matter how !!! Check out the political environment at the time !!! EPT British have not even fulfilled their threats to intercept auxiliary cruisers
            1. +1
              28 September 2018 07: 07
              Quote: Nehist
              Andrei, yes, Bailey would not have interfered with Rudnev from the word no matter how !!! Check out the political environment at the time !!!

              I got acquainted, that's why I say: the stupidest thing that Rudnev could do is to hurt the interests of the European power by arranging a brawl in neutral waters
              1. +1
                28 September 2018 10: 25
                What do you think Bailey could do? He didn’t have any real leverage to put pressure on Rudnev, but after the incident the British would have wiped themselves out as nice because they were not going to fight with Russia, and in general they already appreciated the threat emanating from Germany. Moreover, Britain’s interests were not directly affected.
      3. +1
        27 September 2018 17: 53
        [/ quote] Which, alas, were not on the "Varyag", because if there were such, the Japanese would certainly have removed them from the cruiser and sent them to the arsenals. [Quote]

        So they sent mines to the arsenal, as many as 22 pcs.
        Mine raft, going from the boats of the cruiser itself. Prior to the expiration of the ultimatum, it was entirely possible to deliver all the mines; for this purpose, exercises were conducted in peacetime.
        For knowledge of the materiel, it’s really a minus - to the top starter.
        1. +1
          27 September 2018 19: 29
          Quote: Jura 27
          So they sent mines to the arsenal, as many as 22 pcs.

          No, Yura, they did not send. The arsenals were sent, literally
          "18 hulls of Russian-style mines taken from the Varyag, costing 30 yen each"

          To tell the truth, I really forgot about this fact, because the indicated corps were not mentioned in the "assessment sheets of weapons and ammunition" - they were mentioned only in the "Consolidated list of mine weapons of captured ships."
          But here's the bad luck - it was about the mines. But there is no information that they had fuses on the cruiser, and, most importantly, pyroxylin - no. Given that, for example, the presence of gunpowder (in the amount of 100 kg) is indicated. And for one mine, in fact, EMNIP required 56 kg of pyroxylin, that is, it should have been more than a ton to equip 18 mines. That is why it stuck in my memory that there were no mines on the Varyag.
          Quote: Jura 27
          Mine raft, going from the boats of the cruiser itself.

          This is not entirely true, because in the general case, the mine raft was a prefabricated structure, the details of which were stored on the ship. Perhaps I missed something, but I do not remember its presence on the Varyag
          Quote: Jura 27
          Before the expiration of the ultimatum, all the mines, it was quite possible to put,

          laughing fool
          Yura, I don’t want to upset you, but Uriu V.F. ultimatum, Rudnev received in 09.30 in the morning, and his term expired in 12.00. During this time, it’s not a matter of putting mines, lowering a mine raft is not a fact that it would have been possible (if it had been, of course)
          Of course, Rudnev could have suggested that since Uriu had given time to 16.00 to foreign inpatients, he would not attack before 16.00, but the problem is that even during the presence of equipped mines, it is almost impossible to set up such a minefield.
          1. +2
            27 September 2018 19: 51
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            but the problem is that even during this time, even if there are equipped mines, it is almost impossible to set up such a mine barrier.

            Not to mention the fact that the laying of mines in broad daylight in the port of a formally neutral country, in front of the eyes of the enemy, and other inpatients, is a few .... request
            1. +1
              27 September 2018 20: 26
              Quote: arturpraetor
              it's a few .... Boldly

              Agree that instead of "boldly", completely different words (mostly unprintable) suggest themselves - I can imagine the reaction of foreigners to the remark "Get out, I will mine the fairway!"
              However, your polite ellipsis speaks for itself laughing drinks
              1. 0
                27 September 2018 20: 32
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                However, your polite ellipsis speaks for itself

                Otozh, cursing something on the site of Nizya, so I found (with difficulty) the word cultural, intelligent, so to speak laughing
                1. 0
                  28 September 2018 15: 34
                  swearing something on the site nizya, so I found (with difficulty) the word cultural

                  Colleague arturpraetor, let me ask who and for what you want to swear?
                  1. 0
                    28 September 2018 15: 53
                    For the idea of ​​laying mines in a neutral (de jure) port, in front of the inland doctors and ships. There is such a list of reservations and possible difficulties of both a political and military nature (to put mines on a raft - it’s a very cumbersome process, they haven’t actively practiced it for a reason) that the most capacious, or, so to speak, concise description will be one obscene word smile This is not a question of my desire, but of the exact transfer of the whole meaning of the proposed process in specific conditions))
                    1. 0
                      28 September 2018 21: 57
                      For the idea of ​​laying mines in a neutral (de jure) port, in front of the inpatients

                      And what about the eyes of the hospital? Not the Russians set them an ultimatum to leave the raid, but Uriu.
                      The military must be guided by the de facto situation. Rudnev (and not only he) was mistaken in his profession.
                      There is such a list of reservations and possible difficulties as political

                      So read out something from the "list". Non-abusive.
                      ... and of a military nature (putting mines from a raft is a very cumbersome process, it’s not just been actively practiced)

                      Of course, this is not to set Stepanov’s rail (there is 10 minutes per minute)), but 2-3 hours is enough. That's what they write about maneuvers in 1903
                      ... the ship (Retvisan) as part of the squadron under the command of Vice Admiral O. V. Stark moved to Dalianwan Bay (then commonly called Talienwan), where he participated in maneuvers. Ships made evolution, conducted training firing, put mines from rafts.
                      Why did you try, since you have a "capacious word" for everything ...
                      1. The comment was deleted.
              2. +1
                28 September 2018 15: 54
                I can imagine the reaction of foreigners to the remark "Get out, I will mine the fairway!"

                Yeah, this is the most important thing, "Europe will say what")) In general, Uriu, not Rudnev, told them to "get out" first.
                Once you imagine their reaction, describe it to us, so that we know. And why should she be more interested in Rudnev than your stated desire to “fight longer and sell your life more expensive”? (about official duty separately).
                Only fantasy about Talbot's attack on the Varangian is not to be offered. As well as the fact that such actions of Rudnev would spoil the FRIENDLY attitude of Britain towards Russia))
                1. 0
                  1 October 2018 07: 17
                  Colleague, just remember for a second, the anguish of Witgeft, who was afraid to put mines in INTERNATIONAL waters. Whatever happens. And why?
                  The fact is that you completely in vain equate two things - the Uriu ultimatum and the laying of mines. The Uriu ultimatum violated the neutrality of Korea, well, the jester with it - the whole question was not to violate the interests of other powers while violating the ultimatum - this was possible if foreigners and their property were not affected by the military operation to destroy the Varyag. And in this case, no one would put forward any claims against Japan - why?
                  But the laying of mines is a limitation of navigation, that is, the fact of setting a mine barrier is already a damage to foreigners. A similar action was classified as piracy.
                  And you propose to the Russian warship, in front of an amazed audience, to raise the Jolly Roger? :)))
                  Quote: anzar
                  Only fantasy about Talbot's attack on the Varangian is not to be offered.

                  I do not know if Talbot would attack the Varangian or not, but he had the right (and even the obligation!) To do this.
                  Quote: anzar
                  As well as the fact that such actions of Rudnev would spoil the FRIENDLY attitude of Britain towards Russia))

                  Quite the contrary - such actions of the Varangian gave a formal reason for UNCOMPLETE Britain to run into us in full
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2018 10: 13
                    Colleague, just remember for a second, the anguish of Witgeft, who was afraid to put mines in INTERNATIONAL waters. Whatever happens. And why?

                    Because Russian))) And so:
                    1. Still set, two armadillos drowned, and so what? Has anyone objected?
                    2. To fight in "international waters" they fought, and the Yapas dropped floating mines
                    3. The Japanese means you can put mines in territorial waters of China (around Arthur), and the Russians in ter. Korea water- no? And Chemulpo, after landing, also becomes a Japanese base, like Arthur.
                    Uriu’s ultimatum violated the neutrality of Korea, well, the jester with it - the whole question was that breaking the ultimatum would not violate the interests of other powers

                    But the ultimatum demanded that these "others" leave the raid (if the Varyag did not come out), i.e. the same thing that Rudnev would have demanded of them. And the "property" would not have suffered in the same way. I agree that at the beginning of the war it will be. somewhat unexpectedly, and then it became the norm in this war, which was fought on the "sovereign" territory and water area of ​​two "neutral" powers.
                    such actions of the Varangian gave a formal reason for UNRADUAL Britain to run into us in full

                    Britain, if you decide, will find a reason, so that constant reflection on this subject is a Russian chip. Even the ships with the legally seized smuggling were then released and the raiders were recalled so that the Englishwoman would not be angry. Well, that’s what they decided in St. Petersburg, but there’s no reason to declare Rudnev’s proposed actions impossible, and something out of the ordinary for WAR.
                    But if there really were no mines on Varyag, then what Rudnev did in real life looks reasonable. Or it was necessary to buy mines from Bailey, for a double price I think he will find)))
          2. 0
            27 September 2018 21: 51
            In no case would Uriu attack even in 16 hours, as he planned to attack the destroyers with the onset of darkness.
            1. 0
              28 September 2018 01: 03
              Quote: Oleg Fudin
              In no case would Uriu attack even in 16 hours

              And he told Rudnev in secret about this, right?
          3. -3
            27 September 2018 21: 57
            And what, they had to hand over soaked in salt water and unsuitable pyroxylin to an arsenal?
            So the mines were detonated on the "Petropavlovsk" too? :))
            Maybe you should go to Peskov’s depot?
            1. +1
              28 September 2018 01: 03
              Quote: Oleg Fudin
              And what, they had to hand over soaked in salt water and unsuitable pyroxylin to an arsenal?

              The gunpowder somehow passed, 100 kg, and nothing. Apparently, it was waterproof.
              Quote: Oleg Fudin
              Maybe you should go to Peskov’s depot?

              Or maybe you better teach the materiel? :)
              1. -1
                30 September 2018 12: 05
                You'd better teach her. Is there little to comment on "Petropavlovsk"? The barrage mines on the ships were kept loaded.
                1. 0
                  1 October 2018 07: 21
                  Quote: Oleg Fudin
                  Is there little to comment on "Petropavlovsk"?

                  Elementary. Varyag and Petropavlovsk, if you didn’t notice, are two different ships, moreover of different classes, so the fact that they were stored in Petropavlovsk in running condition does not prove that the warg should have been
                  1. +1
                    1 October 2018 17: 51
                    Convinced. Each class of ship has its own charter. :))
                    1. 0
                      1 October 2018 21: 22
                      Quote: Oleg Fudin
                      Convinced. Each class of ship has its own charter.


                      You almost got to the point, only this applies to instructions on artillery shooting and training .komandorov. Well, it’s better to return to this in the next article.
          4. +2
            28 September 2018 07: 05
            "Varyag" is not a transport to transport mines. They simply did not hand over wet pyroxylin to the arsenal, just like the damaged fuses. The gunpowder was either in a sealed package, or the storage compartment was not flooded, so it ended up in the arsenal.
            The prefabricated structure consisted of a steam boat and longboat, as well as their connecting parts. And all this was on the cruiser.
            And how much time do you need to deliver 20 minutes? Two days or what?
            1. 0
              28 September 2018 14: 40
              Quote: Jura 27
              "Varyag" is not a transport to transport mines. They just didn't hand over wet pyroxylin to the arsenal

              Yura, learn materiel at your leisure. Well, at least occasionally :))). Nobody would ever begin to store pyroxylin openly, so that he would not become damp, they would keep him in a sealed package, so he could hardly take and get wet all. More than strange is the simultaneous exit of all fuses, which in fact (surprise!) Are designed to work in sea water.
              But that is not all. Let me ask, where did the mine anchors go? Wet too? :))))
              1. +1
                28 September 2018 15: 30
                Let me ask, where did the mine anchors go?

                Dear Andrey, you have rested with these mines, there are none and there are none. You’ll bring Rudnev to court, I wrote, he sold them)) I replaced it with old cases so that it was not noticeable))
                In your time in yap. there are no sheets of mines, so they weren’t at all! But here is what you write in the previous part:
                As we have already said, 128 shells with a caliber of 152 mm were lifted from the Varyag earlier, they are in the specified statements not logged in: this is obvious if only from the fact that at the same time with these shells ten 152-mm guns were removed from the cruiser

                But then you can’t raise something else then, your hardware forbids))
                1. 0
                  28 September 2018 20: 18
                  Quote: anzar
                  But then you can’t raise something else then, your hardware forbids))

                  Why? :))) It does not prohibit. Raise - they raised it, because these shells were needed, but they were not reflected in the documents.
                  But here is why the Japanese need anchors for mines and detonators without the shells of the mines themselves - alas, I can’t understand :)))
                  1. +1
                    28 September 2018 20: 44
                    Raise - raised, because these shells were needed, but they did not reflect in the documents

                    Yeah, or 128, or 200 ... Or maybe they needed mines? (for the same recall. cruiser :)))
                    Another explanation is possible, in the spirit of your "so the Japanese called them"(this is about 75mm land mines). That is," hulls "are mines with a charge, but without fuses and an anchor. That is, a" mine "consists of three parts, stored separately - an anchor device, fuses and the" hull "itself mines.
                    And the absence of fuses in the inventory can be explained by their malfunction already, I remember the sugar fuses (?) They had, triggered by sea water.
                    But all the same, the real Rudnev would not use mines (like other opportunities), while the “other” (better) Rudnev would have had them.
                    1. +2
                      29 September 2018 12: 33
                      Quote: anzar
                      Perhaps another explanation, in the spirit of your "so called them the Japanese" (this is about 75mm land mines). Ie "hulls" are mines with a charge, but without fuses and anchors

                      Cost in 30 yen? :))))) With 56 a kilo of pyroxylin inside? :))))) While the Japanese gunpowder regarded 0,70 yen per kilogram? :))))
                      Quote: anzar
                      And the absence of fuses in the inventory can be explained by their malfunction already, I remember the sugar fuses (?) They had, triggered by sea water.

                      A colleague, it’s true, it’s already good to pull a cat onto a cactus :))))) Sugar was a dissolving fuse that slowed down the deployment to a combat platoon — both were installed immediately before the mines were placed.
                      1. 0
                        30 September 2018 13: 55
                        Sugar was a soluble fuse that slowed down the platoon

                        It is true, and if it has already dissolved, then the fuse is no longer suitable - it is dangerous. It is possible to repair, of course, and possibly not so much (an indestructible cap?).
                        both installed just before staging minutes.

                        Did they get sugar in the fuse?))) But he blocked something (cocked) Eto, hmm, a cactus too big))).
                        Colleague Andrey, there is another possible explanation for the presence of "buildings". War mines may have been and they were removed earlier, and perhaps they were not (an exceptional case - Rudnev drank))) But how the exercises proceeded, during which mines were planted from the rafts, I do not know. The artillerymen used practical shells (no charge). Perhaps this was the case with mines and children - just training. Even so, there should be anchors, although they probably weren't dropped.
              2. 0
                29 September 2018 15: 18
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Quote: Jura 27
                "Varyag" is not a transport to transport mines. They just didn't hand over wet pyroxylin to the arsenal

                Yura, learn materiel at your leisure. Well, at least occasionally :))). Nobody would ever begin to store pyroxylin openly, so that he would not become damp, they would keep him in a sealed package, so he could hardly take and get wet all. More than strange is the simultaneous exit of all fuses, which in fact (surprise!) Are designed to work in sea water.
                But that is not all. Let me ask, where did the mine anchors go? Wet too? :))))

                A long time ago I have not met such an epic ignorance of materiel in you.
                "Exploders (sea mines), are designed to work in sea water" - such an epoch-making "scientific" discovery in mine business, worthy of being an epigraph to all your subsequent opuses. So that you can immediately see which ignoramus is sprinkling articles.
                Those. The vehicle simply does not know that the fuse (fuse) of sea mines was located inside the body of the mine and even partially inside the explosive. And outside (in seawater) there were galvanic shock caps closing the chain when they were crushed.
                And about anchors and other things, it can be noted that the Varyag, according to the theory of the TS, was some kind of wild exception in the ranks of the Russian fleet, on all other ships that had barrage mines by state, the latter were supplied with anchors and pyroxylin and fuses and galvanic impact caps and other minreps, but only exclusively on the "Varyag", there were only hulls of sea mines and nothing more to them. As Anzar joked: maybe Rudnev managed to drink the rest in the taverns of Chemulpo and Seoul? To conceal this, the cruiser presented the Japanese as a present.
                1. +1
                  29 September 2018 18: 11
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  A long time ago I have not met such an epic ignorance of materiel in you.

                  Yur, well, you don't need to hide your own bloopers from behind loud cries of "the opponent is a fool." You could not answer about pyroxylin, so your drain is completely counted. I understand that you are offended, and you are trying to recoup, but this is such a childhood ...
                  It seemed to you that you found a discrepancy between me. How so!
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Those. The vehicle simply does not know that the fuse (fuse) of sea mines was located inside the body of the mine and even partially inside the explosive. And outside (in seawater) there were galvanic shock caps closing the chain when they were crushed.

                  Jura, and now the question is - what happened when this same galvanic shock cap cracked on the side of an enemy ship? :))) let's open Krestyaninov
                  In 1898, a new mine was adopted for service, which had a ball hull with a diameter of 0,78 m. The charge consisted of 56 kg of pyroxylin. On the upper hemisphere there were five lead caps with ampoules of Green's liquid. Upon hitting the ship’s hull, the lead cap crumpled.

                  Do you remember boasting an engineering degree? Take the trouble from the height of your long forgotten knowledge to evaluate the consequences of a ship collision of several thousand tons (thousand tons, Karl!) With a lead tip. In general, in such a collision, the mine’s tightness could be broken at a time, and therefore, the fuse, of course, had to be made resistant to sea water.
                  Worse, Yura. Actually, the pyroxylin fuse was usually ... dry pyroxylin, which had to be stored in an impervious shell, otherwise it could be wet.
                  And, finally, the most important thing - my colleague anzar and I used the term "fuse" as the whole structure that detonates a mine, but at the same time does not refer to the body ("horns" did not refer to the body of the mine, as well as the device that puts a combat platoon when sugar was soaked, and they, esessno, were in the water and could not deteriorate from it). You have reduced everything to a detonator.
                  In general ... tie. It’s not for you to criticize me, forgive me - you have a blunder on a blooper, only spend my time in vain.
                  1. 0
                    30 September 2018 14: 10
                    in such a collision, the mine’s tightness could be broken at a time, and therefore the fuse, of course, had to be done resistant to sea water.

                    This is unlikely, a mine or exploded, or drowned. But this discussion is already interesting beyond the question of whether there were mines on the Varangian.
                    Dear colleague Andrey, the principle of a GALVAN shock fuse (an electrolyte arising from a broken ampoule closes the contacts) suggests the presence of some kind of current source (battery) for the electrozapal. And batteries tend to age over time. I don’t know what to think, what and where they handed over))))
                  2. 0
                    30 September 2018 17: 56
                    [quote] [/ quote] About pyroxylin you could not answer, so your drain is completely counted. I understand that you are offended, and you are trying to recoup, but this is such a childhood ... [quote] [/ quote]

                    You couldn’t read my answer, but he said: that the department with pyroxylin was flooded and it fell into disrepair and was not sent to the arsenal.


                    [quote] [/ quote] It seemed to you that you found a discrepancy between me. How so!
                    Jura, and now the question is - what happened when this same galvanic shock cap cracked on the side of an enemy ship? :))) let's open Krestyaninov
                    [quote] In 1898, a new mine was adopted for service, which had a ball hull with a diameter of 0,78 m. The charge consisted of 56 kg of pyroxylin. On the upper hemisphere there were five lead caps with ampoules of Green's liquid. Upon hitting the ship’s hull, the lead cap crumpled.[/ Quote]
                    Do you remember boasting an engineering degree? Take the trouble from the height of your long forgotten knowledge to evaluate the consequences of a ship collision of several thousand tons (thousand tons, Karl!) With a lead tip. In general, in such a collision, the mine’s tightness could be broken at a time, and therefore, the fuse, of course, had to be made resistant to sea water.
                    Worse, Yura. Actually, the pyroxylin fuse was usually ... dry pyroxylin, which had to be stored in an impervious shell, otherwise it could be wet.
                    And, finally, the most important thing - my colleague anzar and I used the term "fuse" as the whole structure that detonates a mine, but at the same time does not refer to the body ("horns" did not refer to the body of the mine, as well as the device that puts a combat platoon when sugar was soaked, and they, esessno, were in the water and could not deteriorate from it). You have reduced everything to a detonator.
                    In general ... tie. It’s not for you to criticize me, forgive me - you have a blunder on a blunder, only spend my time in vain. [/ Quote] [quote] [/ quote]


                    Thank you, for a very long time laughed at your complete ignorance of the materiel; the enchanting passage was especially impressed, about the consequences of a ship collision of several thousand tons, with a lead tip.
                    Nevertheless, try to understand, at least the second time, what I wrote to you: the fuse (fuse, the device where your favorite dry pyroxylin is located) is located inside the mine’s body and doesn’t come in contact with water, and the contactors (galvanic shock lead caps) are located outside the mine’s hull (they are designed to work in sea water). Those. you confuse the fuse with the switch. Is it really so hard to understand, even to such a non-techie like you.
                    1. +1
                      1 October 2018 07: 26
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      Nevertheless, try to understand, at least from the second time, what I wrote to you: the fuse (fuse, the device where your favorite dry pyroxylin is located) is located inside the mine’s body and does not come into contact with water

                      Yura, strain and realize that the ship is knocking on a mine. The ship is very heavy :))) And the ship at impact can damage this very mine even before detonation. This is the time. The second one. They called on you not to confuse the detonator and the fuse and explained that this meant the whole structure leading to the explosion of a mine and not related to the hull. Part of which has direct contact with seawater.
                      Is it that hard for you? :))
                      1. 0
                        1 October 2018 08: 24
                        [/ quote] Yura, strain and realize that the ship is knocking on a mine. The ship is very heavy: [quote]

                        It’s good to make me laugh, your heavy ship, which is banging on a mine. Stop writing on a non-discussion topic.
                        Learn the materiel: the detonator is inside the fuse and neither the first nor the second comes into contact with water. A contactor (lead cap) comes into contact with water, in which there is no pyroxylin.
                        T.O. your statement that pyroxylin in the fuse comes into contact with sea water is complete nonsense and catastrophic ignorance of the materiel. Just admit that you have fused the fuse and the circuit breaker and thereby save me and those in the subject from death from laughter.
              3. -1
                30 September 2018 12: 07
                And where did you find it (pyroxylin) "openly"? Barrage mines were stored in a mine cellar located in the hold.
                1. 0
                  1 October 2018 07: 27
                  Quote: Oleg Fudin
                  And where did you find it (pyroxylin) "openly"? Barrage mines were stored in a mine cellar located in the hold.

                  I already told you to teach materiel? HUMIDITY in the hold have an idea?
                  1. 0
                    1 October 2018 18: 27
                    And I tell you that the role of the clown suits you better.
                    You are no longer able to distinguish a hold from a specially equipped room - a mine cellar, which supports the required mode for storing mines?
                    Even the humidity of the hold should not affect the loaded mine in any way, especially in comparison with the "humidity" after its setting :)))
                    Yes, and learn what a hold is. Is this a kind of hardware?
        2. +2
          28 September 2018 03: 35
          Quote: Jura 27
          For knowledge of the materiel, it’s really a minus - to the top starter.

          Colleague, and you still grumble and mutter ... Why don't you try your hand and write an article? So to speak, to show us, salagam-materiel not knowing how to write articles.
          1. 0
            28 September 2018 06: 56
            [/ Quote]
            Colleague, and you still grumble and mutter ... Why don't you try your hand and write an article? So to speak, to show us, salagam-materiel not knowing how to write articles. [Quote]

            So I already, - wrote. On the site you know. A post there in the top comments.
            1. +1
              29 September 2018 01: 00
              Quote: Jura 27
              I already, - wrote. On the site you know.

              So write more. And then I’m not a walker there, but here there will be more people, all the more interesting discussion will go.
              1. +1
                29 September 2018 12: 47
                Quote: Comrade
                So write more.

                Better not :)))) Yurochka has a Varyag with a displacement close to normal (according to Yura, he determined it from the photo of a Varyag before the battle) flies at 24 knots (though this is with the current) and flies past the standing one in 15 minutes. at anchor "Asams" (that the Varyag saw the Asam long before the battle began, weighed anchor and had a stroke of at least 10 knots as of the beginning of the battle, Yura does not know) Sleep of reason, in general
                1. 0
                  29 September 2018 15: 30
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Quote: Comrade
                  So write more.

                  Better not :)))) Yurochka has a Varyag with a displacement close to normal (according to Yura, he determined it from the photo of a Varyag before the battle) flies at 24 knots (though this is with the current) and flies past the standing one in 15 minutes. at anchor "Asams" (that the Varyag saw the Asam long before the battle began, weighed anchor and had a stroke of at least 10 knots as of the beginning of the battle, Yura does not know) Sleep of reason, in general

                  Do you have other photos where you can see that the overhead line is much higher than the design one?
                  "Asama", I weighed anchor at exactly the same time as in real life. That is, as in real life, from the moment Chiyoda discovered the Varyag at 12-05, the Asama managed to start moving only at 12-20, that is, after 15 minutes.
                  By the way, in your opus, you have indicated the wrong time of the beginning of the movement of the "Varyag" after un-anchoring - in fact, it began to move at 11-30 Russian. time (12-04 Japanese time). Hence, the incorrect calculation of the speeds up to
                  starting points of the battle.
                  1. +1
                    29 September 2018 17: 51
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    Do you have other photos where you can see that the overhead line is much higher than the design

                    Jura, start with your photos, on the basis of which you managed to calculate Varyag less than 7 000 tons displacement. And then I will explain to you where you made a mistake this time. This is because you gave a stunning pearl about 6 600-6700 tons of Varyag’s displacement at the time of the breakthrough , well, you and confirm it.
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    "Asama", I weighed anchor at exactly the same time as in real life. That is, as in real life, since the discovery of "Varyag" "Chiyoda" at 12-05

                    Ah, here it is .. well, I admit that I am wrong. But here's the bad luck - the Varangian in your picture scored the speed of the 24 node literally in seconds after being removed from the anchor, but Asama, for some reason, accelerates to 19 nodes on a three-mile stretch. This is so, do not tell me? And why - to 19 nodes? With Russian, at your imagined speed of 21,5 knots, you add another 2,5 knots per flow, Asame, at its speed at par in 19,5 knots, you take away the floor of the knot. What, on January 27 was Neptune on our side, or what? :)))) The ebb conspired with rotten tsarism and helped the Russians, interfering with the Japanese? :)))
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    You, by the way, in the opus

                    Yur, if I have - an opus, then your "creativity" does not even pull on toilet paper.
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    the wrong time is indicated for the beginning of the movement of the "Varyag" after unanchoring - in fact, it began to move at 11-30 Russian. time (12-04 jp. time)

                    But the logbook of the Varyag and Koreans think differently that the movement started in 11.20. But in general it’s funny that you started the movement in 12.04 of Japanese time, and in 12.05 it already made up the 24 node. Here, apparently, one Neptune was clearly not enough, the wizard was also in a blue helicopter
                    1. 0
                      30 September 2018 18: 33
                      [/ quote] Jura, start with your photos, on the basis of which you managed to calculate the Varyag less than 7 tons displacement. And then I will explain to you where you made a mistake this time. This is because you gave a stunning pearl about 000-6 tons of displacement Varangian at the time of the breakthrough, well, you confirm it. [Quote]

                      I brought a photo in my post, now it's your turn to bring a counter-photo with VL much more than the project one (I would also bring it here, but pictures are not inserted, even from a file hosting).
                      The rationale for the displacement of the "Varyag" in my post is given, read the post carefully, unlike your footcloths, it is very short.
                      On the diagram given in my post, in the upper part, especially for the "blind", the "Varyag acceleration section" is marked. I wish you to finally see the light and see this section.
                      With the Asama path indicated in my diagram, the current hardly helps him at the beginning of the movement. In addition, at the time of the battle, Asama was decently overloaded, so 19 knots is a very optimistic speed for a Japanese.
                      And I have no fantasies about the speed of the "Varyag", after the last repair, the cruiser developed approximately the same speed (taking into account the larger displacement).
                      Your assessments of my work do not bother me in any way, tk. in your "creativity" every now and then there is such an enchanting techno-delusion that you can only wonder.
                      I gave a more probable start time of movement (at the beginning of shooting from anchor at 11-20), otherwise it turns out that the "Varyag" was noticed from the "Asam" no further than 50 kbt.
                      1. +1
                        1 October 2018 07: 59
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        I brought a photo in my post, now it's your turn to bring a counter-photo

                        No photo, neither here nor in your post, nor in the comments to it. Congratulations to you. However, I’m ready to admit the vanishingly small probability that the photo did not insert for technical reasons - well, you can put it somewhere on the file hosting service and give a link to it. Finally, send me an e-mail. And until then, until you do this, commenting on your nonsense does not see the point.
  10. +3
    27 September 2018 15: 54
    Thanks to Andrey, but ... it's sad ... It was a battle of the doomed, who, it seems, knew themselves that they were doomed. And the battle itself, by the way, is not at all to the honor of the Japanese fleet, since "victory" is smelly. They have nothing to be proud of. This is not Tsushima! We are waiting for the continuation. Good luck. hi
    1. +2
      27 September 2018 20: 29
      Quote: Sea Cat
      And the battle itself, by the way, is not at all to the honor of the Japanese fleet

      Yes, how to say ... They performed a combat mission, and completed it. They did not do something dishonorable, but such a victory, of course, could not earn them special laurels
  11. 0
    27 September 2018 16: 32
    Quote: 27091965i
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Honestly, I didn’t understand with the circuit


    Good morning Andrey. In the description of the battle, A. Levitsky indicates that the gunboat "Koreets" was in front of the cruiser "Varyag". After opening fire, the cruiser Varyag increased its speed and overtook the Koreyets. On his diagram, he shows the locations of the Russian ships in relation to certain points in time 11-45, 12-00 and 12-30.
    Its accuracy is difficult to determine, he describes his vision of the battle.

    In all sources I have seen that the "Korean" walked BEYOND, while Levitsky made it out that the "Korean" covered the "Varyag" with himself, and since the author also served there, it is clear why
    1. 0
      27 September 2018 18: 39
      Quote: vladcub
      In all sources I have seen that the "Korean" walked BEYOND, while Levitsky made it out that the "Korean" covered the "Varyag" with himself, and since the author also served there, it is clear why


      They moved "on a ledge", the gunboat "Koreets" before the start of the battle went ahead on the left side of the cruiser "Varyag".
    2. 0
      27 September 2018 20: 31
      Quote: vladcub
      and since the author served there, it’s clear why

      Most likely it was that the "Varyag" and "Koreets", closer to the exit from the tervod, developed a speed corresponding to the maximum speed of the Koreets, but with the beginning of the battle or quite shortly before the start of the battle, the Varyag dropped the move and the Koreets took the lead, after which he and passed "keep the speed of 7 knots." But alas, all this is inaccurate
  12. 0
    27 September 2018 16: 57
    "they read not what was actually raised, but what they expected to see" Perhaps Rudnev, in order not to bother with the signals, ordered the signalman: "Ignore the signals" psychologically you can understand him: he is a competent officer who understood his chances and with all his thoughts he was busy with the upcoming battle, perhaps he remembered relatives, but did not pay attention to the signals. When I wrote the report, I remembered that the Japanese were writing something and decided: "they tried to persuade them to surrender."
  13. +2
    27 September 2018 17: 03
    Quote: Nehist
    If he thought about causing damage, on the contrary he would approach with the greatest speed. Moreover, as a commander, he knew that the Konanirs didn’t shine with his accuracy, and the smaller the distance, the greater the chance of hitting an enemy and causing damage

    As well, the Japanese get into it. I have a strong suspicion that Rudnev overestimated the abilities of his gunners
    1. 0
      1 October 2018 15: 58
      Quote: vladcub
      As well, the Japanese get into it. I have a strong suspicion that Rudnev overestimated the abilities of his gunners

      Svyatoslav, Rudnev was well aware of the defect of his main-caliber artillery: “The simplicity, in some places even the primitiveness of Kane's gun carriage, is both its advantage and disadvantage. Disassemble, clean, replace some part, assemble - yes, no question. But that's not the great secret is that due to the design of the carriage, due to shock loads during firing, its mechanisms turned out to be very vulnerable.Turning is not so, but the lifting is very, very, very, very. lifting arcs broke. What difference did it take in how many seconds or hours the firing device changed if the gun could not be given the required elevation angle? The body of the gun could only be removed from the clip in the factory, which did not add to the convenience of repair work.
      http://fortoved.ru/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=31180&rid=0
      This is not only at this link, but also in other sources. The commanders and artillerymen of the ships on which this gun was installed knew about these defects of the 6 "Canet cannon. Specifically, on the Varyag, EMNIP, it was planned to change these parts in 1906, together with boilers and machines, but, alas, it did not work out. they wanted to change the details during repairs in Angia, in WWI, but even then it did not work out.
  14. +2
    27 September 2018 17: 37
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Thanks to Andrey, but ... it's sad ... It was a battle of the doomed, who, it seems, knew themselves that they were doomed. And the battle itself, by the way, is not at all to the honor of the Japanese fleet, since "victory" is smelly. They have nothing to be proud of. This is not Tsushima! We are waiting for the continuation. Good luck. hi

    I agree with you that we will not save a decent victory. As a child, we would call it: "GRID": they caught and beat off one in a crowd. We didn’t welcome that. It happened that they gathered in 2-3 people and "taught" such impudent people one by one. Then they said: "5 five Vaska were beaten, and then Vaska and the boys, they caught them one by one and slapped them." Here, according to our concepts, it was fair.
    Now I’m thinking: we had rather rigid notions of goodness and decency, perhaps there was cruelty, but there was some decency.
  15. +2
    27 September 2018 23: 13
    ... In other words, if S. Uriu had chosen the tactics of blocking the exit from the fairway with superior forces, then the “Varyag” and “Koreans” should have made a breakthrough together, and then, having convinced themselves of the enemy’s intentions, developed a full course so that you can get closer to him faster.


    The second option was to disperse the squadron in the reach, and S. Uriu wanted to do so, but he did not succeed. On the "Varyag" saw the Japanese cruisers, mobbing at about. Harido, it was clear that they were not dispersed, so we will not consider such a disposition of the Japanese forces.


    Dear author, doesn’t it bother that the second paragraph, from the ones cited, completely disavows the five previous paragraphs in his article? For what purpose did the author write a whole bunch of text about option 1? To write that the first option was not? Yes, we can agree with this, since the Varangian of the Japanese saw that the first option simply did not exist.

    The third version of the author, the breakdown test, also initially gives off with some kind of madness. In order to fight on the retreat, you need to know exactly where the enemy will retreat. What prevents the Varangian from simply turning into another passage under the stern of the Japanese? And the Japanese and Rudnev, of course, must understand this. Sorry, but there is no third option either. This is a pure fantasy far removed from life.

    There remains the second option, which Uriu put into practice. On the enclosed battle diagram, three groups of cruisers are clearly visible covering both the southern and western escape routes. Obviously, you can break through only in full swing, and you need to accelerate in advance and not under enemy fire. Rudnev saw the advance of Japanese ships and had a good idea of ​​which option he would meet at the island.

    To our regret, it was not possible to find his hypothesis of the internal consistency mentioned by Andrei. But there is a lot of text, this is a plus. And the lack of logic is of course a minus.

    By the way, I never came across any mention of any discussion by Rudnev and Belyaev of the details of the upcoming battle. Which confirms the assumption already stated above: there were no options, Rudnev did not think about anything. Generally. In this case, a speed drop before the start of the battle only indicates its readiness to turn back.
    1. +1
      28 September 2018 01: 15
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Dear author, doesn’t it bother that the second paragraph, from the ones cited, completely disavows the five previous paragraphs in his article?

      Only in your indefatigable imagination.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      For what purpose did the author write a whole bunch of text about the 1 version? To write that the first option was not?

      To make it clear that Rudnev could and should have taken such an option into account
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Yes, we can agree with this, since the Varangian of the Japanese saw that the first option simply did not exist.

      What have I seen, not seen?
      Quote: Saxahorse
      The third version of the author, the breakdown test, also initially gives off with some kind of madness. In order to fight on the retreat, you need to know exactly where the enemy will retreat.

      And the Japanese knew that for sure
      Quote: Saxahorse
      What prevents the Varangian from simply turning into another passage under the stern of the Japanese?

      Nothing. In this case, instead of the hour of shooting by the starboard side (the Varangian goes to the eastern channel) there will be an hour of shooting by the starboard side (the Varyag bypasses Marolles from the north and goes to the western channel) with a predictable result. Do I really need to paint such elementary things? :))) The Varangian had 2 paths - to the north of Marolles or to the south of it. If the Japanese squadron goes to the island, she will shoot the Varyag wherever he goes. What could be unclear here? :)
      Quote: Saxahorse
      There remains the second option, which Uriu put into practice.

      My friend, read order No.30, I quoted him and do not smack nonsense, it hurts. Or do you draw circles on the map where Uriu was going to focus? :))) He was going to stretch the cruiser for about 13 -14 miles, and in fact he didn’t disperse his ships very close, but fought on the spot near the exit from the fairway.
      Quote: Saxahorse
      To our regret, it was not possible to find his hypothesis of the internal consistency mentioned by Andrei

      If you managed to find Asama suitable for the retreating Russian squadron in the west, I’m not at all surprised laughing
      1. 0
        28 September 2018 22: 17
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        To make it clear that Rudnev could and should have taken such an option into account

        Why should Rudnev take into account the option of the Japanese blocking the fairway early if he saw them all from the raid in the parking lot west of the fairway? Where is your logic here? And you did it yourself you wrote that he saw it ..

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The Varangian had 2 ways - to the north of Marolles or to the south of it. If the Japanese squadron goes to the island, she will shoot the Varyag wherever he goes. What could be unclear here? :)

        Dear author tried, purely for a change, to look at the map? Does the author see on the map, from the island of Marolles and almost to the island of Philip, a long ridge of rocks and shallows? If the Japanese, according to your plan, move south to Marolles, then the Varangian simply turns west, for this ridge and EVERYTHING. Then you can increase the distance and leave the western channel. Uriu can only organize a round-the-world expedition around all these islands ..

        Well, the main question, and with what hangover do the Japanese even retreat from the Varangian? At the risk of shamefully missing him under the tail ..

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        You draw circles on the map, where Uriu was going to focus? :)))

        Not everything that you want is completely obtained, but you can see that the distance between the groups is about 20-30 kbl. Those. the main task, to lay the fire deep in Uriu is still partially achieved.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        If you managed to find Asama suitable for the retreating Russian squadron in the west, I’m not at all surprised

        So you still insist that Askold sank Asama in the Yellow Sea? laughing

        It's amazing how many jambs with cards you miss recently! To confuse Asama’s entrance and exit courses on the map and of course a whole theory can be built from this only you are capable :) Not .. everyone is ignorant around, only such Russians and Japanese are attracted to the compilation of official descriptions. bully
        1. +1
          29 September 2018 11: 26
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Why should Rudnev take into account the option of the Japanese blocking the fairway early if he saw them all from the raid in the parking lot west of the fairway?

          And knew where they would go, lifting the anchor? Myelophone?
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Dear author tried, purely for a change, to look at the map? Does the author see on the map, from the island of Marolles and almost to the island of Philip, a long ridge of rocks and shallows?

          There is a passage between the shallows, in addition, I’m not ready to say what depth there was during the battle. Also, no one bothers to detain the fastest Asama so that she would block the passage beyond this ridge, so it will be even more fun.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Well, the main question, and with what hangover do the Japanese even retreat from the Varangian? At the risk of shamefully missing him under the tail ..

          And this Uriu must be asked, who was going to smear his forces with a thin layer throughout the water area
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Not everything you want is completely obtained, but you can see that the distance between the groups is about 20-30 kbl.

          So, you still have to draw circles - you have very bad maps
          Quote: Saxahorse
          It's amazing how many jambs with cards you miss recently! To confuse Asama’s entrance and exit courses on the map and of this whole theory, of course, only you can build :)

          No need to measure me on my own, especially since I’m much longer in saxacors :)))) And the reasons why Asama was in the northeast I will describe in the next article on Askold
  16. +1
    28 September 2018 02: 29
    the distance between the "Varangian" and "Naniva" was at that time quite large (according to the report of the commander of the "Naniva" - 9 000 m or approximately 48,5 cables), so it’s not too surprising that the Russians, seeing that the Japanese flagship raises numerous signals, didn’t read what was actually raised

    Dear Andrey, let's remember that the proposal to "Admiral Ushakov" to surrender ("Your admiral surrended, I would advise you to surrender", which can be translated approximately as "Your admiral surrendered, I advise you also to surrender") was dismantled by Russian sailors from a much greater distance. As you know, the Japanese picked it up when it was about eight miles to the armadillo (80 cab).
    It turns out, Rudnev with 49 cab. did not understand what Mikluha disassembled from 80 cab. ?
    12.20 "Asama" set off and, at the same time, started shooting on the "Varyag" from a distance of 7 000 m (about 38 cables).

    Dear colleague, the first shot "Asama" made later, in 12:35 pm (Japanese time). Captain Trubridge was so kind as to indicate in his report the time of the first and last Asama.
    Asama’s commandors, believing that the Varangian is flying at full speed, and not expecting such a low speed from him, will not immediately figure out what’s the matter and take the wrong sight (which, again, happened in reality!)

    Perhaps this is not entirely true. Polutov says that the first shell from "Asama" hit "Varyag" at the same 12:35 pm
    If you believe the English attache, then the Japanese achieved a hit in one minute, if you rely on Polutov, then it took them fifteen minutes to do this.
    1. 0
      28 September 2018 06: 58
      Quote: Comrade
      It turns out, Rudnev with 49 cab. did not understand what Mikluha disassembled from 80 cab. ?

      Dear Valentine, in order to parse a signal, you need to see it well, and this depends not only, and in many cases not so much on the distance from which it is read. If the signal is raised alone and clearly visible, it can be read with 9 miles, if the binoculars were good. It’s a completely different matter when a ship simultaneously gives several signals at once, as happened with the dribble - that we know for sure that the order was issued in 12.20, we know for certain, but it is possible that there were others - for example, it is not known when the signal was sent- order to urgently anchor. But in such a situation there is any confusion (classic - the battle at Dogger Bank)
      Quote: Comrade
      Dear colleague, Asama fired the first shot later, at 12:35 pm (Japanese time). Captain Trubridge was so kind as to indicate in his report the time of the first and last Asama.

      With all due respect to Trubridge, I still believe that the Asam knew better when they opened fire :))) Rokuro wrote in his Battle Report very clearly: “At 12.20 the distance was reduced to 7 thousand meters and I started zeroing in with 8-inch guns after which he entered the battle with his port side. In response, the enemy immediately opened fire. "
      This description is fully consistent with the report of Rudnev and the logbooks of Russian ships, as well as with other Japanese cruisers. Why do you, dear colleague, think that Trubridge is right?
      By the way, the Trubridge report is generally constantly contrary to what the Japanese wrote, and this despite the fact that this respectable gentleman was able to get acquainted with the Japanese point of view before he sat down for his report.
      Quote: Comrade
      If you believe the English attache, then the Japanese in one minute achieved a hit

      No, dear colleague, because Trubridge did not write anything like that. He pointed out that the Japanese opened fire at a distance of 6 800 m, and the hit was observed at a distance of 5 800 m, while it is clear that the Varangian and Asama under no circumstances could approach each other at a speed of 60 km per hour, which would be if your calculation with the minute was correct.
      1. +2
        29 September 2018 01: 59
        Dear Andrey,
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        in order to parse the signal, you need to see it well

        Rudnev lied, he was not offered to surrender. Your explanations could be accepted if this were the only untruth in his report.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Trubridge's report generally constantly contradicts what the Japanese wrote

        Sorry, dear colleague, did you personally read this report in the original?

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Trubridge didn’t write anything like that. He pointed out that the Japanese opened fire at a distance of 6 800 m, and the hit was observed at a distance of 5 800 m, while it is clear that the Varangian and Asama under no circumstances could approach each other at a speed of 60 km per hour

        Dear Andrey, in fact, in the original at Trubridge we are talking about 6 800 yards and 5 800 yards respectively. Difference 1 000 yards, or 0,493737 nautical miles. You write that "Varyag" and "Korean",
        entering the battle, they slowed down to 9-10 nodes

        therefore, even approaching a fixed object, they would have walked half a nautical mile beyond three minutes.
        In addition, we will not lose sight of the fact that you are writing about the hit of an 8 "shell, which, according to the Varyag's logbook, was by no means not the first to hit the cruiser, but "one of the first".
        1. +1
          29 September 2018 10: 53
          Quote: Comrade
          Rudnev lied, he was not offered to surrender. Your explanations could be accepted if this were the only untruth in his report.

          Well, I don’t think so, and we’ll get to Rudnev’s lies. As for Trubridge, he, having incorrectly indicated the opening time of Asama's fire, also wrote that Asama had given full speed ", although in fact, Asama did not develop more than 15 knots in this battle. Naniwa, with According to Trubridge, it turns out that she fought together with Miyako, which was generally in a different place and did not participate in the battle, and Niitaka was paired with Naniva. "twice, the commander of" Naniwa "in the report - that once. The Battle of Trubridge lasted for 14 minutes.
          Dear colleague, according to the criteria you have presented for assessing the accuracy of sources, Trubridge is just a notorious liar, and you believe him :)))))
          Quote: Comrade
          Sorry, dear colleague, did you personally read this report in the original?

          No, I don’t speak Japanese. So I read in the translation of Polutov. You undertake to assert that Polutov also lies, like Rudnev? :)
          Quote: Comrade
          Dear Andrew, in fact, the original at Trubridge refers to 6 800 yards and 5 800 yards, respectively.

          The difference is not fundamental
          Quote: Comrade
          therefore, even approaching a fixed object, they would have gone half a nautical mile in three minutes.

          Firstly, three minutes is noticeably more than one, and secondly "Asama" was certainly not a stationary object, since it was in motion from 12.20. Even the "liar" -Trubridge writes about this (though without specifying the time, he simply reports that Asama gave full speed and opened fire) :)))
          Quote: Comrade
          In addition, let us not lose sight of the fact that you are writing about the hit of the 8 "shell, which, according to the Varyag's logbook, was by no means the first to hit the cruiser, but" one of the first ".

          Yes, and what’s wrong with that?
          1. +2
            29 September 2018 12: 56
            Dear Andrew,
            You answered me so passionately that you involuntarily smiled. Trubridge did not write his reports in Japanese, but in English, which the one whose "translation" you are now retelling does not even speak at the level of a secondary Soviet school.
            For example, in the interpretation of whose translation you retold, the Trubridge battle lasted 14 minutes, while the original says that fourteen minutes passed between the first and last shot of Asama.
            And so on.
            Regarding the indicated time, then you should not get excited. We do not know exactly what time the English observer had in mind. It was one time for the Russians, the other for the Japanese, and the third for the American from Vicksburg.
            Well and so on on the list :-)
            Yes, Trubridge did not claim to be the ultimate truth, as his words clearly indicate when he lists the facts.
            Let's not forget that he watched the battle from the side, unlike Rudnev, who obviously personally saw the Asama commander who was beaten to death, about which he told his readers from the height of the rear admiral's rank. This is a “spreading cranberry” so “a spreading cranberry” worthy of Baron Munchausen :-)
            1. 0
              29 September 2018 14: 10
              Quote: Comrade
              You answered me so passionately that you involuntarily smiled.

              Frankly, I counted on it :)))))
              Quote: Comrade
              Trubridge did not write his reports in Japanese, but in English, which the one whose "translation" you are now retelling does not even speak at the level of a secondary Soviet school.

              Hmmm ... dear colleague, this is very easy to verify. I am using the translation provided by A. Aleksandrov and Y. Pakhmurin in the "flotomaster" magazine. They translated this fragment of the report as follows:
              "The general pursuit began, the distance remained approximately the same. The last shots were fired simultaneously from the bow barbet of the" Asama "in charge of the pursuit. I looked at my watch, it showed 12.49, the time of the first shots was 12.35. The fight lasted exactly 14 minutes."

              I would be very grateful if you provide the English text of the report, I think that even I can decrypt it correctly with the help of Prompt. If you think that I can’t (my English is completely the same ... none), then I ask you to also give your translation.
              Quote: Comrade
              Regarding the indicated time, then you should not get excited. We do not know exactly what time the English observer had in mind.

              Honestly, when I read the Trubridge report, I assumed so. Who knows what time the Englishman used, but personally, I doubt that it’s Japanese. Why is it for him?
              Quote: Comrade
              Let's not forget that he watched the battle from the side, unlike Rudnev, who obviously personally saw the Asama commander, who was beaten to death, about which he told his readers from the height of the rear admiral’s rank

              The French, despite having their own observer, not like the commander of Asama, they drowned the entire Asama, so I'm not surprised. In general, rumors about the loss of the Japanese at the beginning of the war were wild.
              1. 0
                29 September 2018 15: 07
                Dear Valentin, you just don’t think anything like that ... If you don’t give the English original, but give your translation of this passage of the report, it will completely suit me
          2. +1
            29 September 2018 13: 03
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            The battle on Trubridge lasted as much as 14 minutes.


            " The time of active artillery fire was 14-15 minutes"

            Better to call it the neutral observer version. When considering the Tsushima battle, such a study was published in 1905-1909, often cited as a comparison, the time it took the Japanese to incapacitate the cruiser "Varyag":

            " it took 15 minutes to disable the Varyag cruiser in the battle at Chemulpo"

            Everyone should make conclusions himself.
  17. +2
    28 September 2018 03: 55
    Many thanks to the author with pleasure I read all your articles (I do not agree with everything, but the work is very high quality). Regarding the breakthrough of the Varangian, according to the words of my father, a military sailor, in the Nakhimov school (50s) it was believed that Rudnev had to strengthen the crew at the expense of the Korean and go on a breakthrough alone. Kat then.
    1. +1
      28 September 2018 07: 03
      Quote: Xazarin
      it was believed that Rudnev had to strengthen the crew at the expense of the Korean and go on a breakthrough alone

      Rudnev could not know what the Japanese commander would do, because he simply blocked the exit from the fairway at Yodolmi. In this case, the Korean 203-mm guns would be a very weighty argument, and leaving it on the raid would be a big mistake.
      1. +4
        28 September 2018 08: 31
        Of course, if the task is to inflict the most damage, the Korean could come in handy, but if the task of breaking through is either throwing it to death or with no chance, therefore, having carefully re-read the cycle, I come to the subjective opinion that there was no attempt to break through. It was a demonstration with the task of preserving the honor of the uniform. With all due respect to your immersion in the subject, I do not have the image of Rudnev as a determined and skillful sailor.
        1. 0
          28 September 2018 20: 14
          Quote: Xazarin
          I come to the subjective opinion that there was no attempt at a breakthrough. It was a show

          The option that Rudnev simply put his ships out to sea in order to fight, even without a chance of a breakthrough, as I understand it, is not considered at all by you? :))) Either a breakthrough or an imitation of activity, is there no other?
          1. +2
            28 September 2018 21: 07
            Well, why so, this option was considered. If by analogy, then the brig Mercury fought and, strangely enough, remained a triumph, although there were no more chances than the Varangian (as far as I know, a person was appointed to blow up the brig in case of defeat). Therefore, I conclude that if Rudnev fought and did not imitate, most likely we would now discuss the heroic death in battle, and not how many shells went into Japanese arsenals. But in order to draw final conclusions for myself, I will wait for the completion of a wonderful cycle. Respectfully and in anticipation.
            1. 0
              28 September 2018 21: 51
              Quote: Xazarin
              if Rudnev fought and did not imitate, most likely we would now discuss the heroic death in battle, and not how many shells went into Japanese arsenals.

              If Rudnev fought, he would most likely break through. The Japanese clearly had an order to keep their distance, and the 6-thousand-strong cruisers showed decent survivability in the battles of the REV.
              1. 0
                29 September 2018 00: 31
                Well this is not a fact !!! The chance of a breakthrough was minimal and would succeed only if the Varangian detached from Asama, by the way, in my opinion, Uriu made a tactical mistake putting Asama in the first line. From the point of view of tactics, when echolonating in depth, Asam should have been in the depths of the system.
                1. +3
                  30 September 2018 22: 40
                  Quote: Nehist
                  Well this is not a fact !!! .


                  Not a fact .. Not a fact ... But here I agree with my comrades: Rudnev was a type of headmaster, not a cruiser commander. And he was not going to fight at all --- he was planning to rub points for the bosses, and that was all.

                  In that battle there was another hero --- who unfortunately went unnoticed: the commander of the Korean Belyaev. Belyaev, IMHO, hero: The Varangian at least had a theoretical chance to break through and leave - the Korean had no chance at all, the Korean could only die, helping the Varangian. But Belyaev went into battle as a dance in a culture park. And before that, his toy boat was preparing for battle. And after returning - he blew up his ship. this despite the fact that no one would raise his boat.

                  It is from a comparison of the actions of these two officers that we can see hu from hu: who performed the duty and who ....
                  1. 0
                    6 October 2018 06: 37
                    Unfortunately, the training system was such that almost all the commanders of our ships and admirals were the captains.
                    But even the clerk or, there accountant, going into a hopeless battle even to save face - this is a hero. And the fact that he acted as he acted .... I think that if the first shell got a little in the wrong place and killed not Nirod, but Rudnev, then no one would try to make out the stupidity of captain 1st rank Rudnev.
                    It reminds me of Prokhorovka. All curse our commanders for the terrible loss. Only no one said what was needed and could be done in that situation. And it was necessary to step on the prepared defense in an open field, from which you can’t get anywhere. And that’s all. Such situations in life are a wagon.
            2. 0
              29 September 2018 10: 56
              Quote: Xazarin
              If by analogy, the brig Mercury fought and, strangely enough, remained a triumph, although there were no more chances than the Varangian

              and survived, but you write
              Quote: Xazarin
              Therefore, I conclude that if Rudnev fought and did not imitate, most likely we would now discuss the heroic death in battle

              ??
              1. 0
                29 September 2018 17: 50
                Dear Andrey, I propose to suspend our debate until the end of the series of articles) In the meantime, I will clarify some of my statements. 1- I cited the opinion of teachers at the Nakhimov’s school in 1950; 2- my impression of Rudniv as a sailor based on your articles; 3- my logical constructions are possible a) if there was an attempt to break through, then it was necessary to break through alone strengthening the team with the Korean crew b) if the task was to fight in order to inflict maximum damage, the result of the battle would most likely be the death of both ships and not a retreat followed by the actual transfer of the Varyag to the Japanese c) but if you accept the version of the imitation of a breakthrough, then Rudnev’s actions become logical (two ships exit, short battle , spread, etc.) Once again, I emphasize my opinion will be subjectively and fully formed after the end of the cycle and repeated, careful study of the information you kindly provided
                1. 0
                  29 September 2018 19: 40
                  Quote: Xazarin
                  Dear Andrey, I propose to suspend our debate until the end of the series of articles)

                  With pleasure:)))
                  Quote: Xazarin
                  In the meantime, I’ll clarify some of my statements. 1- I gave the opinion of teachers at the Nakhimov school 1950 year

                  I see.
                  Quote: Xazarin
                  b) if the task was to fight in order to inflict maximum damage, the result of the battle would most likely be the death of both ships and not a retreat, followed by the actual transfer of the Varangian to the Japanese

                  That's it, now I understand you. Actually, my last remark is related to the fact that I misunderstood your words regarding Mercury, sorry. And as for the rest - well, we will discuss later, after I present my version of those events :)))))
                  And, of course, whether or not to agree with me is your right, which I do not dispute in any way hi
  18. +3
    28 September 2018 09: 22
    I read somewhere that Hasek, when Schweik wrote, traveled sending parts of the work to the publisher, and at some point forgot the details of the plot, so he had to send a telegram to the publisher asking where one of the characters is.
    Andrei will also have to send telegrams to the administration of VO; what part is it now? laughing
    Part 12. First shots

    Part 12. On accuracy

    However, maybe this is the administration of VO just trying to shod the author for an extra fee? lol
    Or did he decide to confuse the readers?winked
    But in fact, the rationale for the assumption that Rudnev wanted to skip ahead of the Japanese with a cunning maneuver looks very weak.
    He himself unequivocally writes that he was making a breakthrough.
    It is clear that he could not write in the report that he only wanted to indicate a breakthrough, and return back. But who prevented him from writing that, in connection with the circumstances, he came to the conclusion that a breakthrough was impossible and that he saw as his task the maximum damage to the Japanese? None. No one set a task for him to make a breakthrough, and in general did not set any task, he could solve it according to circumstances.
    Moreover, the fact that he designated a breakthrough and immediately returned, is humanly understandable and not a secret, in the army in some cases this approach has existed for centuries.
    If we accept the version of the imitation of a breakthrough, it will become clear why he got out ahead of the steam engine with the decision to leave the port at the request of Uriu — he decided this before he heard the opinion of foreigners standing in the port, although, obviously, it should have been the opposite — he had to first to find out their decision, and then decide what to do, in such a situation he would have controlled the possibility of leaving the battle, and if the Japanese had entered the port as threatened, he would not have been able to leave the battle without raising the white flag. All his real decisions indicate that he had such a plan initially, well, except that the Japanese would not shoot, as he writes.
    Moreover, his duty as an officer of the Imperial Navy was not to do good to foreigners.
    He should have told them the following - in connection with the outbreak of the war and the vile violation by the Japanese of neutrality and prevailing international rules, he would act on the circumstances, and all claims would be forwarded to the Japanese, with which he should go.
    Moreover, he simply had to hide behind the foreigners at the exit (without asking them for permission, by the way, for which they could not give consent if they wanted) or when parking in the port, he was responsible for his cruiser, not the safety of foreigners, and translate all claims to the Japanese. He is not a noble knight in search of a duel with the same, he is an officer of the Russian Navy and is responsible for the military unit entrusted to him by the tsar - the priest, and is obliged to take all measures to protect and save her. But did not accept.
    It is still unknown whether the Japanese would attack under such circumstances.
  19. +3
    28 September 2018 09: 55
    about the width of the fairway.
    Just where the Japanese pretzel wrote out at full speed, the Varyag ran aground. smile
    Actually, Andrei came up with what was clear initially - the fairway in this case is not a narrow channel, and it was necessary to reduce the speed only at certain points, so if Rudnev tried to leave, then the speed should be appropriate, and he coming back faster than coming out.
    The example of Chioda didn’t seem convincing to me either; it’s not enough why Chioda was in no hurry during the day.
    Rudnev’s circumstances demanded to do everything possible and impossible, but he didn’t even catch up with Chiod in the night exit.
    And one more nuance.
    The author often mentions the possibility of firing at anchor or just standing still.
    I do not think that this was possible with a fairly strong current existing in the strait.
    Then there were no thrusters, for shooting it was necessary to hold the ship evenly, and for this there should be a course, otherwise the ship is poorly controlled and will be demolished and deployed.
    So a fight on the fairway at the exit from the port would quickly lead to the fact that the opponents would be completely close, and if Rudnev set out to blow himself up with the enemy, as declared, then there were opportunities for this.
    1. 0
      28 September 2018 21: 55
      Quote: Avior
      Then there were no thrusters, for shooting it was necessary to hold the ship evenly, and for this there should be a course, otherwise the ship is poorly controlled and will be demolished and deployed.

      For firing from a place, you can start a second anchor from the stern and turn around pulling yourself in the right direction. So from the time of sailing ships did.
      1. 0
        30 September 2018 11: 35
        Well, sailing and the road to you :))
  20. 0
    28 September 2018 13: 45
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Sea Cat
    And the battle itself, by the way, is not at all to the honor of the Japanese fleet

    Yes, how to say ... They performed a combat mission, and completed it. They did not do something dishonorable, but such a victory, of course, could not earn them special laurels


    I am talking about this, having such a "bull" as Asama, the rest could not have been involved in a duel, the cruisers of this class fought with our battleships in a linear battle and quite successfully. As for the Koreans - well, he is not an opponent to Japanese cruisers, even of the 2nd rank, at least in terms of speed. Moreover, the destroyers are nearby, and they don't really need to attack, just indicating attacks and knocking the gunboat off course.
    I understand that all these are my fantasies, but, nevertheless, a one-on-one battle (even though an armored cruiser with an armored cruiser) would look much more samurai-style than a simple beating by a Caudle of a single ship.
    And so it turned out a purely "English murder", such as the destruction of von Spee's squadron near the Falkland Islands. hi
    1. +1
      29 September 2018 00: 35
      Dear Sea Cat !!! Asama and others like him put Togo from without source. And if the EDB paid attention to them, they somehow very quickly left the line because it is fraught with hi
      1. 0
        1 October 2018 10: 13
        Quote: Nehist
        Dear Sea Cat !!! Asama and others like him put Togo from without source. And if the EDB paid attention to them, they somehow very quickly left the line because it is fraught with

        Um what ... Alexander, I almost disagree. Of the eight armored cruisers that Togo had at the time of the memorable battle of Tsushima, 6 of the same type (formally, according to similar characteristics) made up the Kamimura squadron, and 2 armored cruisers were part of the first squadron along with 4 EBRs. Those. they couldn’t get out of action when they came under fire from Russian battleships, despite the fact that formally they were only booked with 152mm armor, in contrast to the 178mm armor of Asama-class ships. And Togo put them in line with the EBR only because of their speed characteristics - ships of the "Giuseppe Garibaldi" type in real life gave the same speeds as the EBR. They would only slow down the faster cruisers of the linden "Asama" ... At the same time, do not forget, that in the seed of Tsushima the Kamimura cruisers acted against .... battleships. Whatever one may say, 254mm Oslyabi guns, 305mm 40-caliber Sisoya guns still have weight for even armored cruisers, but still. And the 35-caliber guns "Navarina" are also not a pukalka ... And by no means Kamimura did not retreat from the fire of heavy ships in battle ... So the "hopelessness" is quite far-fetched. The commanders of "Nissin" and "Kasugi", acting in conjunction with the battleships, did not think so ... hi
        1. 0
          1 October 2018 12: 23
          The commanders of "Nissin" and "Kasugi", acting in conjunction with the battleships, did not think so ...

          Dear Rurikovich, what their commanders thought, I don't know, but it is about them that the words "put from bezishodnosti" are quite fair. They took the places of the sunk battleships. If Rozhdestvensky, instead of kazionny "shoot everyone at Mikasa", defined them as the main target at the beginning of the battle, they would very quickly leave not only the formation, but possibly the sea surface ... Russian armor-piercing 12 "shells pierced their 152mm belts starting from the 39th (along the beam), taking into account 38mm bevel, it is slightly less. And in their two boiler houses there were fire tube boilers - one hit with a break would be enough for them!
          But the Asamoids, yes, they could stand if the distance is not too small. They are armored almost like armadillos (178mm, bevel 63mm, some British have less) but armed like cruisers.
          1. +1
            1 October 2018 14: 02
            Quote: anzar
            They took the place of sunk armadillos.

            Due to the fact that they could either act together with armadillos, or act separately. But Kamimura did not take them, because the speed is small. These are, in fact, second-class armadillos, as Italians considered them. And the disadvantage they have is just mediocre speed! So they went with armadillos. And if the Japanese had 6 armadillos, they would still go with them. Yes
            Quote: anzar
            If Rozhdestvensky, instead of kazionny "all shoot at Mikasa" identified them as the main target at the beginning of the battle, they would very quickly leave not only the formation, but possibly the surface of the sea ...

            In the course of the battle, when it turned out that the order to "hit the head" could not be executed due to the positions for individual ships, the cruisers, which were armored, fell under the fire of battleships. And they did not end up at the bottom of the sea and somehow did not leave the formation very quickly. except that "Asama" and then thanks to a large-caliber projectile in the unprotected stern, which led to flooding and damage to the steering gear. But you must admit, the same would have befell any battleship of that time with views on protection, since most of the stern was protected only by a carapace deck or very thin armor, which is for a large-caliber projectile - fu. So the failure of the "Asama" is the same accident as any hit of a shell in a vulnerable spot on the ship.
            And look at the damage to the Japanese armored cruisers under Tsushima and make sure that they all received heavy shells, and at the same time did not run away and did not hide behind their armadillos
            Quote: anzar
            Russian armor-piercing 12 "shells pierced their 152mm belts starting from cabin 39 (abeam), taking into account 38mm bevel, a little less. And in their two boiler rooms there were fire tube boilers - one hit with a penetration is enough for them!
            But the Asamoids, yes, they could stand if the distance is not too small. They are armored almost like armadillos (178mm, bevel 63mm, some British have less) but armed like cruisers.

            Yes, I know that without you. Look less at papers and tables, but rather analyze what was in reality wink hi Best regards
            1. 0
              1 October 2018 14: 51
              Look less at papers and tables, but rather analyze what what was in reality

              In reality, the Russian brig (Mercury) gave two Turkish battleships lyuley. So what? Will we build only brigs?
              Dear colleague, we were talking about the phrase "set from hopelessness"And that is exactly how it was (for the Italians), he did not have other ships, and he considered the risk of losing it inevitable. They were not ordered, but taken" as he eats. "How could Togo have known beforehand that the Russians would merge so?
              1. 0
                1 October 2018 20: 20
                Quote: anzar
                In reality, the Russian brig (Mercury) gave two Turkish battleships lyuley. So what? Will we build only brigs?

                Well, the minesweeper "Bengal" kicked the auxiliary cruiser, so shall we build the minesweepers? anzar, to analyze something and draw conclusions, this does not mean to raise an isolated case to an absolute. Considering each episode separately, one can draw conclusions about the correctness or viciousness of the idea, a separate ship, a tactical scheme.
                Quote: anzar
                They were not ordered, but taken "as he eats"

                Um, who prevented us from taking them? Didn't agree on kickbacks? Didn't fit the concept ?? Before the war, the Japanese were reinforced with two cruisers, which in terms of armament corresponded to the "Asamoids". Yes, the armor is thinner, yes, the speed is lower, but they are almost 2000 tons lighter than the "aces" !! Because of the speed, they were kind of "defective" for active cruising operations! And Togo kept them not from "despair" that he lacked battleships, but precisely because of the speed (V.L. Kofman. "Armored cruisers of the" Garibaldi "type) hi
  21. -1
    28 September 2018 20: 04
    They turn history to Russia as they want. ..
    How difficult, then all this .. Oh, I would pulist soldier
  22. 0
    28 September 2018 20: 08
    As far as I understand, the battle pattern is initially incorrect. And if so, then there is nothing to discuss.

    It is interesting that from the abundance of schemes (all are basically the same), the author chose this particular one - extremely doubtful
    1. +2
      28 September 2018 20: 12
      Quote: AK64
      As far as I understand, the battle pattern is initially incorrect.

      This is perhaps the most accurate of all circuits circulating in the literature.
      1. 0
        28 September 2018 21: 57
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        This is perhaps the most accurate of all circuits circulating in the literature.

        I hope the respected author will not forget to insert a diagram from Kataev, for example, into the next part? This is about the "most accurate" ..
        1. 0
          29 September 2018 14: 55
          Quote: Saxahorse
          This is about the "most accurate" ..

          So you are absolutely sure that the Varangian was stranded at Yodolmi?
        2. +1
          30 September 2018 14: 55
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          This is perhaps the most accurate of all circuits circulating in the literature.

          I hope the respected author will not forget to insert a diagram from Kataev, for example, into the next part? This is about the "most accurate" ..

          In fact, since the author began to criticize other schemes, then it is necessary to bring them up and explain why they are not correct. Otherwise, it's somehow not very good: it turns out "all of you ... and only me are drantanyan ..."
          1. +1
            30 September 2018 19: 48
            Quote: AK64
            Otherwise, it's somehow not very good: it turns out "all of you ... and only me are drantanyan ..."

            I wonder where such a conclusion comes from. He would have the right to life if the author himself drew a diagram, and declared it the most accurate. The author chose from the many schemes that which he considers the most accurate. What is insulting to you personally? :)
            1. +1
              30 September 2018 22: 30
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Quote: AK64
              Otherwise, it's somehow not very good: it turns out "all of you ... and only me are drantanyan ..."

              I wonder where such a conclusion comes from. He would have the right to life if the author himself drew a diagram, and declared it the most accurate. The author chose from the many schemes that which he considers the most accurate. What is insulting to you personally? :)

              Nothing - except that you are told that this scheme is ... dubious. You answer "no, it is the most accurate." If you say this, then you absolutely need to show the scans, that is, to justify how this particular scheme is more accurate than others.
              1. +2
                1 October 2018 08: 05
                Quote: AK64
                Nothing - except that you are told that this scheme is ... dubious. You answer "no, it is the most accurate." If you say this, then you absolutely need to show the scans, that is, to justify how this particular scheme is more accurate than others.

                Well, firstly, if someone says that the scheme I have given (from one of the most profound monographs on this issue in Russian) is doubtful, then, generally speaking, he should explain what its doubtfulness is, shouldn't it? I cannot answer with detailed evidence to every unfounded statement. And secondly, the correctness of the scheme given by me will follow from the correspondence to its general description of the battle, which I just started. If someone can refute the description of the battle that I will give, then the scheme will be incorrect. What other rationale do you need? Analysis of the schemes now will not work, since in order to analyze it, you must first describe the battle itself
      2. 0
        30 September 2018 14: 54
        But what about the reversal on the traverse of the island? When Rudnev had to back up so as not to enter the island? After all, this moment seems to be reflected in the Rudnev report.

        This one detail is enough to reject this particular scheme once and for all.

        Well, or prove that there was no reverse and this is fiction
        1. 0
          30 September 2018 17: 45
          Quote: AK64
          This one detail is enough to reject this particular scheme once and for all

          Alas, not enough.
          Quote: AK64
          Well, or prove that there was no reverse and this is fiction

          Of course, when we get to this in the description of the battle.
          1. 0
            30 September 2018 22: 33
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: AK64
            This one detail is enough to reject this particular scheme once and for all

            Alas, not enough.

            Alas - more than enough.

            Quote: AK64
            Well, or prove that there was no reverse and this is fiction

            Of course, when we get to this in the description of the battle.

            That is, how so: the diagram is incorrect, and deliberately incorrect conclusions are built on its basis - but "but we will discuss this later"? It's strange somehow.

            The question is fundamental: this scheme leads to obviously wrong conclusions. So what's the point on its basis to reason something?
            1. +2
              1 October 2018 08: 11
              Quote: AK64
              That is, how so: the diagram is incorrect, and deliberately incorrect conclusions are built on its basis - but "but we will discuss this later"? It's strange somehow.

              The fact is that I do not make a description of the battle based on the schemes. Schemes of naval battles in the vast majority of cases contain gross errors, or else unsubstantiated guesses. A remarkable example is the scheme of the Tsushima battle - the relative position of the squadrons at the time of Togo’s turn is still unknown, but we draw the schemes ... I make a description of the battle based on reports of the parties, other evidence and documents. And I give the diagrams only as an illustration, for the convenience of the reader, so that someone who is difficult in my description to recreate the picture of the battle (or simply do not have time for this) to have a visual graphic aid.
              In other words, in my articles, the schemes are deeply secondary (unless expressly stated otherwise, it happens that besides the scheme drawn by the battle participants there are no other documents confirming this or that moment of the battle), and I do not make any mistakes based on them
              1. 0
                1 October 2018 15: 32
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

                The fact is that I do not make a description of the battle based on the schemes. Schemes of naval battles in the vast majority of cases contain gross errors, or else unsubstantiated guesses.

                Why, then, do you give a scheme that raises so many doubts?
                The scheme is essentially a description of the battle, only presented in a form that is easy to understand. Are you not satisfied with the existing ones? Well, explain why and what exactly they are not satisfied with. But giving an extremely dubious scheme, and then declaring "yes, I don't need a scheme at all" is somehow strange.


                A remarkable example is the scheme of the Tsushima battle - the relative position of the squadrons at the time of Togo’s turn is still unknown, but we draw the schemes ...

                Yes, everything is known there with less accuracy.
                Well, or you can consider options: "if so - then what then." There are not so many options - because it makes sense to consider only extreme cases.
                1. +1
                  2 October 2018 08: 21
                  Quote: AK64
                  Why, then, do you give a scheme that raises so many doubts?

                  Andrei, do you read what I’m talking about? Or am I chatting with myself here? laughing
                  I have no particular doubts about this scheme (something but little things) and I consider it the most accurate of the existing ones. If she doubts you, you can argue with her and me, no question. What exactly does it not suit you for?
                  Just do not need general words about "extremely dubious" - this is the lot of trolls. Specify which part of the battle you think is doubtful and why
                  Quote: AK64
                  Yes, everything is known there with less accuracy.

                  Didn’t you try to learn the materiel? :))) The only question is - on which exchange rate angle did Togo start its U-turn? :))))) Please answer and preferably with a link to the source. And at the same time, give explanations in connection with which this indicator differs by half in Russian and Japanese certificates, and why you chose one of these points of view :))))
                  1. 0
                    2 October 2018 16: 28
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Quote: AK64
                    Why, then, do you give a scheme that raises so many doubts?

                    Andrei, do you read what I’m talking about? Or am I chatting with myself here? laughing
                    I have no particular doubts about this scheme (something but little things) and I consider it the most accurate of the existing ones. If she doubts you, you can argue with her and me, no question. What exactly does it not suit you for?

                    (1) During the U-turn, the Varangian almost ran into the island - I had to back up. This is not on your scheme, and it cannot even be because the U-turn is shown later. But this moment radically changes the whole assessment of Rudnev’s actions.
                    Where did he turn around?
                    (2) Japanese ships were further beyond the island. Which again shows that Rudnev’s situation was OTHER.


                    Just do not need general words about "extremely dubious" - this is the lot of trolls. Specify which part of the battle you think is doubtful and why

                    What's the point? You will still continue that "it seems to me that this is the most faithful!" When it seems, you need to be baptized. And the schemes and descriptions of the battle must be analyzed for discrepancies and errors.
                    Quote: AK64
                    Yes, everything is known there with less accuracy.

                    Have you tried to learn the materiel? :)))

                    Are the arguments over? Left rudeness?
                    The only one question is - at which exchange rate angle did Togo begin its U-turn? :))))) Please answer, and preferably with a link to the source. And at the same time, give explanations in connection with which this indicator differs by half in Russian and Japanese certificates, and why you chose one of these points of view :))))

                    And you need to consider BOTH options. And to understand from the development of events, who is lying and why he is lying. Only.
                    It is always possible to find a mistake (and misinformation) precisely from analysis.
                    You just need to understand that everyone is an interested person, and they are trying to present themselves in the best way.
  23. 0
    1 October 2018 09: 31
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk,
    [/ quote] There is no photo, neither here in your post, nor in the comments to it. Congratulations to you. However, I’m ready to admit the vanishingly small probability that the photo did not insert for technical reasons - well, you can put it somewhere on the file hosting service and give a link to it. Finally, send me an e-mail. And until then, until you do this, commenting on your nonsense does not see the point. [Quote]

    N-yes ... Do not notice the only photo in the post, it must be definitely blinded. Try to see clearly, at least not for long, like to make out the acceleration section, you did succeed. If anything, then the only photo in the post is the photo in the teaser.
    1. 0
      1 October 2018 10: 21
      Quote: Jura 27
      It’s good to make me laugh, your heavy ship, which is banging on a mine.

      Have you arranged for proximity fuses?
      Quote: Jura 27
      Learn the materiel: the detonator is inside the fuse and neither the first nor the second comes into contact with water. A contactor (lead cap) comes into contact with water, in which there is no pyroxylin.
      T.O. your statement that pyroxylin in the fuse comes into contact with seawater is utter nonsense

      Yura, you finally left for the wildest nonsense.
      First, a detonator, so you know, is a device designed to detonate the main charge of an ammunition (artillery shell, mine, aerial bomb, missile warhead, torpedo) and, of course, the "horns" of a sea mine, as well as a fuse that is held sugar, is an integral part of it
      Secondly, quote me the place where I said that the pyroxylin in the fuse is in contact with sea water. Well, why lie at every step?
      Quote: Jura 27
      N-yes ... Do not notice the only photo in the post, it must be definitely blinded.

      Yura, there is no photo in the post.
      Quote: Jura 27
      If anything, then the only photo in the post is the photo in the teaser.

      Yurochka, a teaser is a teaser, not a post. This is the time. The second one. Yura ... Well, Yura damn .... That's it. I can not.
      Listen, young man. In the teaser you have a photo of the Varangian, who returns to the parking lot having a roll above Xnumx degrees to the port side, and you looking at his RIGHT side evaluate the position of the water line? !!!
      Yur, I would tell you who you are after that, but I already have one warning, enough for me :)))
      1. 0
        1 October 2018 17: 47
        [/ quote] Have you agreed on contactless fuses? [quote]

        The contactor is quite a contact, the detonator is electric, when the cap was crushed, the explosion occurred almost instantly. And to get into the body of the mine, by the very end of the ram (or stem) strictly along its diametrical plane, in order to pierce the body, was unlikely, at least I have not seen a description of such cases. The hull of the ship almost always hit a mine tangentially, crushing the "horns". Therefore, there was no point in protecting the fuse (igniter) with dry pyroxylin from the long-term action of sea water. It was protected only from exposure to humid air.
        Once again: the "horns" of the mine are not an integral part of the fuse, they are the fuse circuit breaker. The fuse includes: an electric detonator and a dry pyroxylin checker and they are not intended for operation in seawater.
        To quote you again? Yes, no question, yours from 28.09. : "More than strange is the simultaneous release of all fuses, which are actually (surprise!) Designed to operate in seawater." To which I objected to you that the fuses are absolutely not designed to work in sea water. A contactor works in sea water.
        Maybe for you a teaser and not a post, but these are your problems. For me, the post is everything: from the first photo (drawing, drawing) to the last point (photo, drawing).
        Andrew! Old man! Who told you that I estimate the draft on the starboard side that has come out of the water? You have very perverse thoughts. I estimate the draft, according to one point on which, the reception of water by the cruiser and its roll has the least influence (moreover, the error there is in favor of a smaller displacement). Can you guess what the point is with three times? Or is there not enough writer's mind for this?
        And this, don’t worry so much, and if you write an honest crap, then be always ready that someone will tell you about this.
        1. +1
          1 October 2018 18: 10
          Quote: Jura 27
          Once again: the "horns" of the mines are not an integral part of the detonator

          Yur, and you would go to learn materiel. For example, here https://arsenal-info.ru/b/book/3977928548/4
          where Russian in white says

          Where the caption reads
          1 - safety device; 2 - galvanic shock fuse; 3 — pilot glass; 4— charging camera
          Quote: Jura 27
          Can you guess what the point is with three times?

          No, I can’t, because there are no such points in the photo, Yura. And what you thought this time, I can’t know. There are guesses, but I will be pleased if you say it yourself. Laugh the hunt.
          1. 0
            2 October 2018 06: 07
            When copying and pasting pictures from the web, try to think at least sometimes, preferably with your head. The fuse is from the word explosion, i.e. your galvanic "fuse" should have BB (your favorite dry pyroxylin). But it is not there, because it is not a fuse, but a contactor and it contains coal and a bottle of acid, when broken, a current appears, which closes the detonator circuit (located inside the fuse made of dry pyroxylin, which, in turn, is inside the explosive mines). Therefore, your statement that the fuse is designed for contact with sea water is still not true.
            There is such a point, this is the intersection of the stem with water.
            1. +1
              2 October 2018 08: 14
              Quote: Jura 27
              When copying pictures from tyrnet, try to think at least sometimes, preferably with your head.

              Dear boy, the book from which I brought you a picture was written by Konstantin Vasilyevich Morozov in 1974, in the USSR. And believe me, he knew much better than you, and what is an anchor mine, and what is a fuse. And the fact that even now you persist in your delusions speaks only about one thing - that you are a person living in the world of your fantasies and not knowing how to admit your mistakes, even when they are completely obvious.
              And you are very offended by me, because this is not the first time I have put you in a lotus position in front of an amazed audience. And you still dream of paying me back with the same coin.
              Alas, Jura, not in this life Yes
              1. 0
                4 October 2018 15: 37
                He didn’t know shit, and neither did you. Teach materiel: "Underwater mines. Course of the Nikolaev engineering school. 1906."
                In which yours and his, supposedly "fuses", are called "galvanic impact devices" - and absolutely, without the word "fuse".
                But this, in fact, is a trifle, and the main thing is that you stated that the fuse containing dry pyroxylin is designed to work in sea water and therefore cannot be damaged by flooding the corresponding compartment of the cruiser.
                So, in the same book on materiel, there is a section "Storage of charged mines", which says that fuses (fuses with dry pyroxylin) should be stored separately from mines and, accordingly, may well suffer from prolonged exposure to sea water. In the same way, pyroxylin (explosive mines) could also lock, since charged mines should have been stored, without rubber gaskets for the necks.
                Andrew! Old man! Why would I be offended by you? If, your regular ignorance of elementary equipment, constantly leads me into a good mood, in the form of a good laugh. When you come to work, you read the revelations of Andrey and immediately life becomes more fun. I’m even looking forward to your next opus, because all the difficulties of life somehow disappear immediately, albeit temporarily. Now, if your creations came out every two days, then in general, there would be sheer joy. So, I can only wish you creative success in ignorance of the materiel!
  24. 0
    1 October 2018 12: 39
    Quote: Nehist
    Dear Sea Cat !!! Asama and others like him put Togo from without source. And if the EDB paid attention to them, they somehow very quickly left the line because it is fraught with hi


    Good day, Alexander.

    For a long time I did not re-read Kostenko and Novikov-Priboy. Remind me, please, which of the armored cruisers of Admiral Togo left the wake system during the Tsushima battle? hi
    1. +1
      1 October 2018 12: 55
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Remind me, please, which of the armored cruisers of Admiral Togo left the wake system during the Tsushima battle?

      Asama, of course. He was kicked out of the line at about 14.35 or a little later, into which he was able to return only at 17.10 And the fault was two shells in the stern ...
  25. 0
    1 October 2018 20: 28
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Remind me, please, which of the armored cruisers of Admiral Togo left the wake system during the Tsushima battle?

    Asama, of course. He was kicked out of the line at about 14.35 or a little later, into which he was able to return only at 17.10 And the fault was two shells in the stern ...


    Yeah, then I got it all the same. Thanks Andrey, but from whom did you receive it is unknown? hi
  26. -1
    2 October 2018 15: 07


    A simple navigation task is to calculate the drift angle.
  27. -1
    2 October 2018 16: 29
    What can be said in response to this? Yes, indeed, there is a fact - the cruiser "Chioda", having in its "asset" only one single passage along the fairway, really the second time went from the raid to about. Phalmido in 35 minutes. On a moonless night.


    Not many people are familiar with the rules of navigation, are not familiar with the location, navigational signs and headlights. Let us pay attention to the location of the lighthouses on the Chemulpo location.

    Three lighthouses determine the ship's course first - at the exit from the port (landmark 1), the most difficult turn in the area of ​​about. Iodolmi, on which the lighthouse is located (let us call it landmark 2), which defines the landmark of the beginning of the right turn and it is the target light that determines the direction from the port, the third lighthouse (landmark 3).
    Those. three lighthouses - a sufficient number of light landmarks, so that with good visibility you can exit, even at night (but not at full speed, of course - the navigation area is very difficult, unless it was walking in full water (high tide).
    Those. Tentatively, the exit to the port would sound simplified like this:
    - at the exit from the Chemulpo raid, keep in the alignment - the landmark of the port lighthouse (landmark 1) on the course angle (aft), the lighthouse on the island of Iodolmi - stay in the alignment of navigation lights of landmark 1-2.
    The third lighthouse - for example, two degrees to the right of the lighthouse Iodolmi.
    This allows you to fully control the effects of drift and drift in the dark in this sea area.
    That is, the line of sight of the lighthouses allows you to adjust both the drift of the ship and the drift very accurately.
    It’s even more difficult - having a lighthouse on about Iodolmi on the heading angle such as this on the starboard side, a third lighthouse on the heading corner such as this - start turning to the right, end the right turn having a lighthouse Iodolmi (landmark 2) at such a right-hand side corner, third lighthouse (landmark 3) on a corner such as this on the port side being on the beam (Iodolmi lighthouse on the starboard side, third lighthouse on the traverse on the port side, start a left turn and end it with course angles at landmarks 2 and 3 such and such. no - you can keep the compass heading.
    Theoretically - maneuvering at night is not too difficult for an experienced navigator - all the visible landmarks make this path relatively controllable in case of strong current (drift) and strong wind (drift) and their simultaneous influence on the true course of the ship.


    1. 0
      4 October 2018 04: 46
      I beg your pardon, but you somehow easily "generated" the navigation process with an emphasis on the ease of solving navigational tasks ...
      I can’t find the words to more accurately describe your text.
      The meaning of navigational work is simplified in the exact knowledge of the location of the ship (vessel) at any time and its reflection on the map (the PATH of the ship is marked on the map, even if it moves in reverse or drifts under the influence of current and wind, etc. Accordingly, it is determined position relative to navigational hazards and the direction (path) safe is chosen.
      The most important thing in navigation is BASED ON KNOWLEDGE DIRECTIONS - the device is called COMPASS, without it navigation is possible only in Egyptian .. along the coast, overnight to the coast.
      Heading angle - connected to the ship, and for safe navigation you need a system connected to the coast, regardless of the position of the ship ... do we really care where the nose is turned ??? And the heading angle is for other tasks ..
      Measuring distances to a landmark is generally a Nanai’s dream ..
      1. -1
        6 October 2018 07: 30
        The distance is determined easier than the lung - two bearings and a mark on the map. Then a compass. All. 3 minutes business. Plus or minus midway and that's enough. The whole world with 32 points was opened and did not steam.
  28. 0
    7 October 2018 08: 57
    Quote: mmaxx
    The distance is determined easier than the lung - two bearings and a mark on the map. Then a compass. All. 3 minutes business. Plus or minus midway and that's enough. The whole world with 32 points was opened and did not steam.


    Usually, I answer such nonsense: "It is better to chew something .. than to speak"
    For your solution of the "navigator's problem" - a two with two minuses (2--);
    Even in the first year, for determining a place by two bearings, they put a "stake" ...
    And one cadet made it easier .. - one bearing and the intersection with the course line were taken as the point from which he measured the distance traveled.
    No, you could use the cruise bearing too ..

    You did not take into account the most important thing - measuring the distance to a landmark is NOT the same as measuring the distance on a map .. because it is an indirect calculation (!). That is, they made a methodological mistake ...

    On the ships (ships) of that time there were magnetic compasses .. track - steering rules on it and the main one on the upper bridge ... Well, there you could take bearings too ... ONLY MAGNETIC-COMPASS.
    They had to be corrected by corrections for the magnetic deviation of a particular compass, then by the average correction for the magnetic declination of the navigation area, and only then plotted on a map ..
    And still it was necessary to take into account the sequence of taking bearings, the angle between these directions of bearings, then make a conclusion about the reliability of the place .. and only then talk about the distance to the landmarks.
    I talked about measuring distances to coastal landmarks.
    By the way, you can walk around the magnetic compass without fear, only having a "copper forehead" - an ancient navigational joke. On a ship with many steel and iron structures, even the reversal of the towers and guns affects the deviation of the magnetic compass ...
    Something like that.
    1. 0
      7 October 2018 13: 15
      Bast shoes there, bast shoes here on the map, can I not comment? ..