The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 18. The end of the battle

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In the previous articles of the cycle, we thoroughly examined the main issues of the battle between the Varyag and the Koreans with the superior forces of the Japanese, so that we have not much left. We gave a diagram of the damage received by the "Varyag" before the cruiser passed the traverse of Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi), that is, before our time on 12.05, now we will supplement it with the rest.

Recall that before getting damaged, as a result of which cruiser control was apparently lost, the ship received at least four direct hits - in the stern (behind the cannons), to the right wing of the bridge (midshipman Nirod was killed), grotto-mars, which, apparently, was the cause of the fire on the shchantsy (but it is possible that the fire - the result of another, an additional hit in the spar above the shkantsev) and in the false side of the right side between the first and second pipes. In total, one 203-mm projectile (in the stern) and three, possibly four 152-mm, hit the Varyag. It seems to be a bit, however, as we have said, as a result of these hits and the fragments of shells that exploded next to the ship, the cruiser lost no less, but rather even more than the 10-15 people were killed. This is a lot, if we remember that for all the time of the Tsushima battle on Aurora and Oleg, 10 and 12 people were killed, respectively, while Varyag lost as many or more in 20 minutes.

The fifth (or sixth?) Hit in the Russian cruiser was recorded in 12.06, almost simultaneously with the hit in the bulwark (Russian reports it does not contradict). Already after the Varyag was raised, a large hole of 3,96 * 1,21 m size was found in the area between the front pipe and the nose bridge on the starboard side. Judging by its dimensions, this is the result of an 203-mm projectile hit and it was he who caused wound vf Rudneva and the death and injury of nearby people. In the logbook described the death of two, the headquarters miner and drummer, who were next to the commander, but it is possible, and even likely, that in fact there were more dead. If we look at the scheme cited by V. Kataev (apparently compiled according to the data of R. M. Melnikov, but V. Kataev turned out more clearly.

The cruiser "Varyag". Fight Chemulpo 27 January 1904 of the Year. CH 18. The end of the battle


We’ll see that in the battle house, in addition to the miner and the drummer, five more crew members were killed during the battle: quartermaster, commander, sailor of the 1 article and two sailors of the 2 article. In this case, the places of their death are just in the zone of destruction of the Japanese projectile. Thus, this hit of an 203-mm projectile from the Assam, in addition to causing problems with cruiser control, killed 2 to 7 people.

The question of the “almost simultaneous” hit of several 152-mm projectiles in the middle of the Varyag case, which was observed from the Asama, remains open. Apparently, the Japanese armored cruiser recorded a hit with "Naniwa", described by us earlier. But it is interesting that at the same time, their projectile hit the “Varyag” on “Takachiho”: however, according to the results of the inspection of the “Varyag” by the Japanese, it can be argued that only three Japanese projectiles got into the bow of the ship's hull bridge wing, 152-mm at the wheelhouse and 203-120-mm - in the false side of the starboard). So, it is quite possible that Naniwa and Takachiho claim the same hit in the bulwark. However, another is also possible - the fact is that at some point in time the cruiser suffered damage to the third pipe located just in the middle of the hull, the time of which is not reflected either in Russians or in Japanese reports. Unfortunately, the author of this series of articles could not figure out, nor when this hit in the "Varyag" occurred, the projectile that hit the cruiser pipe flew in from any side.

During the rise of the "Varyag" his body was examined for the presence of various kinds of damage, and the Japanese themselves drew up their scheme, given in the monograph by A.V. Polutova. However, at the time of its compilation, the spars and the cruiser's pipes were cut, therefore the data on their damage were not included in the scheme. Only the scheme of V. Kataev remains, and a through-breakthrough of the third chimney is demonstrated on it, while the maximum damage (the torn off sheets of the outer casing) are on the starboard side. That's what it says? Perhaps the projectile hit the starboard side, exploded, and its fragments (the head?) Went through the pipe. It is possible that the projectile hit the port side, broke through the outer casing, the inner one, and exploded, thereby knocking the outer casing from the inside out. According to the author of this article, the first option is most likely, but it could have been different. Nevertheless, it can be assumed that "a few 152-mm hits in the middle of the hull," which were observed on the Asam, and hits to the cruiser, which recorded the Naniwa and Takachiho, are hits on the starboard and third pipe.

However, there is another, not completely understandable damage. The fact is that after the recovery of the cruiser, the presence of another hole in the starboard, in addition to the above, was found. It had the size of 0,72 * 0,6 m and was located in the area of ​​the 82-th frame, between the stern bridge and the extreme side gun (№9). The Japanese did not observe this hit, but in the Varyag logbook there is a record: “The shell that went through the officers (cabins) that were destroyed, the deck was punched and the flour in the provision unit was lit.” However, this record refers to the time after 12.15, when the cruiser was deployed by the right side to the enemy, and could not get hit on the left side. In addition, the provisional compartment is located far enough from the point of entry (behind utytovye tools). At the same time, the “Combat Report” of the commander of the “Assam” contains an indication that an 203-mm projectile hit the stern, which happened a little earlier in 12.10: “An 8-inch projectile hit the deck behind the stern bridge. There was a strong fire, the foregast mast hanging over the starboard. ” However, it is extremely doubtful that the 203-mm projectile left behind so insignificant, just 0,43 square meters. a hole.

Most likely, this was the case. In the period from 12.00 to 12.05, while the cruiser was going to traverse about. Phalmido (Yodolmi), literally in 5 minutes "Varyag", got three or four hits (in the bridge, the stern and main-mars, probably another projectile exploded over the shkantsami, hitting the rigging) lost 10-15 people killed, after which passing traverse o. Phalmido-Yodolmi began to turn right. Here, in 12.06, three or even four shells hit the Russian cruiser almost simultaneously - one 203-mm next to the conning tower, and two-three 120-152-mm shells - one into the bulwark, one into the pipe and one into the stern district officer cabins. This was perceived on the "Asam" as a few hits in the middle part of the cruiser hull. As a result, "Varyag" lost control, and rolled into a turn on the rocks o. Yodolmi But when the cruiser turned left-side to the Japanese, he almost immediately (in the gap (12.06-12.10) gets two more direct hits. One of them (120-152-mm projectile) caused the flooding of the fire chamber and thus put a cross on the idea of ​​a breakthrough, and the second - 203-mm projectile in the stern, which was mentioned in the “Combat Report” of the commander of the “Assam” caused the very fire, and the ignition of flour in the provisional compartment. the ships were not recorded, this damage was discovered during salvage operations.


The ship’s hitting before losing control is highlighted in red, the raspberry hit in the cabin, which caused VF’s injury. Rudnev and, possibly, almost simultaneously with him the shells that fell into the cruiser, in blue - the damage received by the “Varyag” after turning the left side to the enemy.


As for the further (highlighted in blue) hit in the cruiser, then with them, not counting the projectile that flooded the stoker, everything is more complicated. The fact is that in the stern of the Varyag in the course of its lifting several damages of the hull were recorded:

1. two holes with 0,15 sizes on 0,07 m and 0,20 on 0,07 meters and 4 small holes next to them;

2. a hole the size of 3,96 on 6,4 m on the upper deck on the left side, there was a fire;

3. a hole on the upper deck with 0,75 dimensions on 0,67 meters.

So - with regard to damage under item 1, then they most likely arose either as a result of the scattering of fragments (metal structures of the hull) when 203-mm projectiles hit, or as a result of detonation of cruisers shells under the influence of fire. As for the 3,96 hole on 6,4 m, it looks too big for one 203-mm projectile - it is 5,3 times larger than the hole made by the 203-mm projectile at the Varyag squared room (25,34 m2 and 4,79 sq. . m. respectively)! Therefore, we can assume that, despite the well-known proverb “the projectile does not fall twice into one funnel,” this hole was the result of successive hits of two 203-mm projectiles (the first in 12.00 and the second in 12.10). And finally, the last hole was the result of hitting another projectile caliber 120-152-mm. Probably, this hit the cruiser received already when returning to Chemulpo, although, on the other hand, given that it was not recorded in either Japanese or Russian reports, the missile could get into the cruiser at any time during the battle.

Thus, we counted 10 hits in the hull and one - in the mast over the shkantsev, and apparently, 9 hits in the hull and one in the mast the ship received in the interval from 12.00 to 12.10, that is, in just 10 minutes. The Japanese believe that 11 shells got into Varyag, according to their other sources - 14.

We have already given the approximate position of battling ships as of 12.05. Their further maneuvering is not that interesting, but almost not amenable to reconstruction. We know that "Asama" turned on "Varyag" and went to him around 12.06. Apparently, it was precisely at this time that the "destruction of the rear bridge" and the "failure of the stern tower" of the armored cruiser of the Japanese were recorded on the Russian ships. It can be assumed that Russian sailors fell victim to optical illusion by taking a Japanese volley through the smoke of the previous one (and / or smoke from chimneys) for getting into the rear part of the “Assama”, and then, after the Japanese cruiser turned the Varyag, his stern tower, of course, could no longer act on the Russian ships - they were outside the sector of its shelling. But the combination of “clearly visible” “hitting” and ceasing firing from the aft tower, apparently, was “obvious” evidence of the damage to the “Assam” by Russian cannons - alas, as we know today, the evidence is false.

"Chiyoda" followed "Asama" to 12.18, after which, having problems with the power plant, fell behind. “Naniwa” and the next “Niitaka” completed the circulation and also turned to “Varyag”. Only the third pair of Japanese cruisers: "Takachiho" and "Akashi" did not immediately go to the "Varyag", but turned on the opposite course, moving in the direction of Fr. Herido, and only later, having made a circulation, turned towards Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi). What Varyag did at this time we have already repeatedly analyzed in the articles of our cycle, and there is no point in repeating. Avoiding a meeting with the island, the Varyag returned to the fairway and moved to Chemulpo - the Japanese pursuing Russian ships stopped fire at 12.40, and Varyag anchored about a half cable from the British cruiser Talbot at 13.00-13.15.

It should be noted that upon receipt of the damage described above, the desire of V.F. Rudnev, at least temporarily, to take the ship out of the battle looks more than justified, and it’s not just a semi-underwater hole through which the stoker’s fire was flooded. Almost a great danger to the cruiser caused a fire in its aft, or rather, in the provisional compartment, where flour was burning. The danger of such a fire is usually completely underestimated, and completely in vain. The fact is that the combination of flour dust, oxygen and open fire under certain circumstances creates "gorgeous" volume explosions.



Elevators after the explosion of grain dust (with flour - the same) When such dust explodes in a confined space, pressure is created that is 12,5 times the destruction point of the reinforced concrete slab.


An “interesting” incident occurred in Benin in 2016. There, due to a violation of the technology of waste disposal, the spoiled flour was not completely burned, and its (apparently smoldering) residues were thrown into a landfill. The enterprising local population rushed to collect flour, hoping to “get hold of Darmeschinska,” and at that time an explosion thundered. The result is 100 dead and 200 injured. In general, for the year in the world at grain processing facilities occurs before the 400-500 explosions.

But back to the Russian ships. In the return of "Varyag" and "Koreyets" there would be nothing so interesting if it were not for one bike that went on a walk around the expanses of the Internet with a light hand of N. Chornovil. In his words, the cruiser Varyag, wishing to get out of the battle, managed to develop speed in 20 knots or even more: of course, even a somewhat impartial analysis of the battle shows that no such "super speed" Varyag on the way to Chemulpo did not develop .

The assertion that the Varyag, allegedly scattering from all its feet, comes from speculation in the battle plan, because, unfortunately, we do not know the exact position of the cruiser at each time point after 12.05, when he passed the traverse of Father Phalmido (Yodolmi) and before 13.00 (according to Korean Koreon watch log ship) or 13.15 (according to Varyag watch log) when the latter anchored, returning to Chemulpo raid.

What do we know?

The military report of the commander of "Assamy", Yashiro Rokuro testifies:

“In 12.45 (12.10 in our time), the 8-inch projectile hit the deck behind the stern bridge. There was a strong fire, the foregast mast hanging over the starboard. "Varyag" immediately turned, increased the course and took refuge behind the island of Phalmido to get out of the fire and proceeded to extinguish the fires. At that time, the Koreye went north of the island of Phalmido and continued firing. ”


Apparently, the moment is described here when the Varyag already “passed back” from the island and gave way, turning to the right - since the turn “to the island” practically left the cruiser without a turn, and then it also reversed, then the resumption of movement Obviously, it was regarded by the “Asam” as an increase in speed. Then, at some point, “Varyag” disappeared from “Asama” behind an island, while the “Koreyets” could still fire at the enemy.

Thus, the following scheme for maneuvering Russian ships suggests itself:



This scheme is quite consistent with the report of the commander of "Akashi": "In 12.50 (12.15), the Russian ships, having made a circulation, lay down on the opposite course and began to retreat to Chemulpo."

Further, Yashiro Rokuro writes: “In 13.15 (12.40, Russian time), the enemy approached the anchorage of Chemulpo and stood between the ships of foreign countries. I stopped the fire. ” The fact that the Japanese stopped firing at 12.40 is confirmed by the Varyag logbook:

“12.40 When the cruiser approached the anchor site and when the Japanese fire became dangerous for foreign ships, they stopped it in the roadstead and the two cruisers pursuing us returned to the squadron left behind the Yo-dol-mi island.”


However, the Russian cruiser noted that the Japanese ceased firing not when the Varyag stood up “between ships of foreign countries”, and when the Japanese fire became dangerous for foreign stationery, which, generally speaking, is completely logical. It is impossible to imagine that the Japanese continued to fire the Russian cruiser when it was in close proximity to foreign ships. In addition, if all of a sudden it turned out to be true, then it is completely incomprehensible how Varyag, having reached its place in 12.40, managed to anchor only in 13.00 (if Korean Kore’s logbook is right) or even in 13.15 (about which the watchman magazine "Varyaga")?

True, "Korean" indicates that the Japanese stopped the fire not at 12.40, but at 12.45, but there could have been a mistake in there. The Varyag logbook noted that the Russian cruiser stopped firing 5 minutes later than the Japanese, while 12.45, perhaps seeing the Varyag firing on the Koreyts, considered that the Japanese cruisers continued to respond to him, although in fact this was not the case.

Thus, the following reconstruction suggests itself: At 12.15, Varyag was already walking along the fairway at the Chemulpo raid, at 14.40, on the way to the raid, the Japanese stopped firing and, at 12.45, apparently, when entering the raid or a little later, it ceased fire and "Varyag". In 13.00, Varyag is suitable for a parking lot, in 13.00-13.15 it gives up an anchor. So 6 is miles from about. Yodolmi before the raid (rather, even a little less, since the cruiser was already behind the island in 12.15) Varyag passed through 12 nodes - taking into account the oncoming flow around the 2,5 node, its speed did not exceed the 14,5 nodes, but rather was even less. No 17, 18, or even 20 nodes, of course, the cruiser did not develop.

As a matter of fact, if you ignore the Russian reports, declaring them false, and also completely abandon common sense, believing that “Asama” stopped firing at “Varyag” only when it anchored next to “Talbot”, substantiate "that approximately 6-6,5 miles from Fr. Phalmido flew to the anchorage in the Varyag road in 20 minutes or even less. However, supporters of this version for some reason forgot about the gun "Korean".

Well, let's say everyone lies, and the Varangian could really fly in the Chemulpo water area at a speed of 20 knots. Good. But the gunboat "Korean" could not do this! Its maximum speed in the tests was 13,7 knots, but the average was, of course, lower, and there is no evidence that on January 27, 1904, that is, approximately 17,5 years after its acceptance tests, “Korean "Could develop a great speed. Conversely, a minimal understanding of the realities of steam fleet of those years tells us that, most likely, the speed of the “Korean” was even lower than the 13,5 knots put to it “according to the passport”.


"Korean" after the battle with the Japanese squadron


But no one has yet taken it upon to disprove the fact that the "Koreyets" turned around and went to the fairway of Chemulpo almost simultaneously with the "Varyag". And if the cruiser really gave 18-20 knots, then obviously the gunboat was far behind - with a difference in the speed of 4,5-6,5 knots in 20 minutes, the lag would be 1,5-2,17 miles. Suppose that is how it was: but in this case, the Japanese cruisers had no reason to stop firing at 12.40. They would simply transfer it from “Varyag” to “Korean” and continue to shoot further!

In other words, ignoring some reports, and tearing out phrases from others from the context, it is technically possible to imagine a situation in which Varyag ran to Chemulpo at the speed of 20 nodes and even more. But in this case it is completely unclear how the “Korean” did not lag behind the high-speed cruiser. And if it still fell behind, then why did the Japanese ships not transfer fire to it? It turns out that they shot at Varyag almost right up to the moment of anchoring, and the Koreets were released, although he clearly did not even have time to enter the raid?

In fact, on "Varyag", after V.F. Rudnev decided to get out of the battle, gave no more 13,5-14 nodes, that is, not much more than the maximum that the cannon could have developed, and if the Koreets were behind the Varyag, then not much more; raid almost simultaneously, approximately in 12.45-12.55.

A few words about the accuracy of shooting of Japanese cruisers. The consumption of the shells of Japanese cruisers, together with the distances of the battle, we will look at the table compiled by AV Polutovym



Assuming that Varyag received 3 hits with 203-mm shells and 8 with 120-152-mm caliber, we have% hits with 11,11% 203-mm and 3,16% 120-152-mm. It is very difficult to calculate the percentage of hits for individual ships, since, apart from 203-mm projectiles, it is unclear from which particular ship a particular hit was made. But if we assume that the Japanese “Battle Reports” are not mistaken, and that “Naniwa” and “Takachiho” achieved one hit, while the others were the result of shooting “Asam”, then it turns out that the six-inch “Assam” showed 5,82%, “Naniwa” "- 7,14%," Takachiho "- 10% accuracy. Yet this is highly doubtful, because the number of spent shells of the last two cruisers is extremely small, and the Takachiho was also almost the furthest away from the Varyag. As we saw above, Varyag received almost all its hits literally in some 10 minutes, and here it is rather difficult to single out the hit of its projectile. It can be assumed that all hits in “Varyag” were achieved from “Assam”, in this case the accuracy of its 152-mm guns was 7,77%.

The abnormally high accuracy of shooting a Japanese armored cruiser draws attention. On the same day, the main forces of the Japanese fleet entered into an approximately 40-minute battle with the Russian squadron at Port Arthur - using the 1 139 shells of the 152-203 caliber, the Japanese achieved a maximum of 22 hits, which is no more than 1,93%. What is the reason for such accurate shooting of the guns of "Asama"?

Unfortunately, the author does not have an answer to this question, but there is some assumption, a hypothesis. The fact is that “Asama” for a long time could not target at “Varyag” - having opened fire on 11.45 in Russian time, he achieves the first hit only after a quarter of an hour, at 12.00. This, generally speaking, is far from the best result - “Varyag” goes along the fairway, the position of which is known, its speed is frankly small, and nevertheless “bang-bang - and by”. Recall that the 6 lead ships ZP Rozhdestvensky in Tsushima, in much worse weather conditions, the Japanese ships 25 were able to hit with shells, of which 19 fell into Mikasu, the flagship of H. Togo.

However, then on the "Asam" still shot, and then thrust at an average projectile every minute. Why is that? The unsuccessful “Varyag” maneuver, here, perhaps, did not even play a special role, because, as we see, the majority of the hits fell on the starboard side of the cruiser, that is, before the “Varyag” made a U-turn island ", turning to the enemy left side.

Perhaps the sharply increased accuracy of the Japanese gunners is related to the fact that the Varyag approached about. Phalmido (Yodolmi), whose position in space was well known - as a result of this, the Japanese range-finders and gunners received an excellent reference point. This hypothesis is also confirmed by the fact that later, when the Varyag departed from the island, returning to the fairway, the armored cruiser Asama, although it continued pursuit and fired, apparently did not achieve more direct hits. That is, there is an interesting picture - the Japanese did not get into the "Varyag" on clean water, but as soon as he approached Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi), as their fire gained deadly accuracy, which the Japanese armored cruisers, apparently, in any episode of the Russian-Japanese war have not reached. But for some reason, this super-accuracy was immediately lost, as soon as “Varyag” once again moved away from the island.

As for the Russian cruiser, he, having spent approximately 160 152-mm and 50 75-mm shells, apparently did not achieve hit in the Japanese ships. "Korean" released on Japanese ships 22 203-mm, 27 152-mm and 3 75-mm projectile, also, alas, without success. Arguing theoretically, we can assume that one or two projectiles did hit the Japanese - it is possible that if such hits did not harm the Japanese, the latter did not reflect them in the reports, but there is no evidence that from Varyag really hit someone no. As for the "sunk" Japanese destroyer, it remains to quote the report of the commander of the 14-th detachment of the destroyers, the captain of the 3-rank Sakurai Kitimaru, more precisely that part of it, which directly related to the battle:

“In 12.25 (11.50), when he saw that a battle flag had been raised on the Naniwa, he ordered the torpedo tubes to be deployed on 10 degrees. in the nose (with the exception of torpedo tubes №3) and prepare them for shooting. In 12.26 (11.51), the Varyag opened fire, and each ship of our squad began firing back. “Chidori”, “Hayabusa”, “Manzuru”, being on the stern course corners from the non-firing board “Naniwa” at a distance of 500-600 m, went in a parallel course, waiting for the right moment to attack. In 13.20 (12.45), the enemy ships again took shelter in the anchorage. In 13.25 (12.50) I saw that the battle flags had been lowered. ”


Thus, all three Japanese destroyers participating in that battle practically followed the “Naniwa” and did not attempt to approach the Russian ships - hence, Varyag did not have the opportunity to sink one of them, or at least damage the Varyag.

It seems that everything is clear - "Varyag" and "Korean" could not inflict any noticeable damage to the enemy. Nevertheless, there are several odd explanations for which the author of this article does not have - we will consider them a little later, in the next article, since there is simply no room left for this here.

And, finally, the loss of the crew "Varyag".

According to the cruiser watch journal, for the 27 battle of January 1904, Varyag lost 31 people killed, 27 people seriously injured, 58 people less seriously injured, and 116 people of whom 58 were either killed or seriously injured. Later, in the report to the Marine Ministry Manager, Vsevolod Fyodorovich Rudnev indicated killed 31 people, more or less seriously injured 88 people (three officers and 85 lower ranks), as well as 100 people who were slightly injured, who did not report their injuries immediately after the fight. How realistic is such a loss estimate, and how to understand “less seriously” or “more or less seriously” injured?

Let us turn to the article by T. Austin (in modern transcription - T. Austin), an English maritime doctor, among other colleagues, who went up to the deck of the Varyag in order to help the wounded Russian sailors in the battle. He is a foreigner, an eyewitness, a representative of a nation that was completely unwilling to Russians in that war. In the discrediting relations with Vsevolod Fyodorovich Rudnev, in which our revisionists like to blame the commanders of the French and Italian cruisers, was not noticed.

The first thing I would like to say is the version of the twenty-minute flight of the Varyag from Fr. Phalmido to the place of anchorage in the roads T. Austin does not confirm. He writes: “Half an hour after the end of the battle, the Varyag returned to Chemulpo’s raid with a lurch to the left and with a burning stern.” Isn't it true, a noticeable similarity with the Russian cruiser's logbook, which states that the battle stopped at 12.45, and anchored the ship at 13.15? But we read further:

“Of the people employed in the lower part of the vessel, no one was injured, but from 150 who worked at the top - 40 was killed on the spot, and 68 was wounded ... ... The dressing of the wounded continued without a break from 1 h 30 min to 3 h 45 min; for more than two hours, both doctors from Varyag and three from neutral courts served first aid, examined wounds, removing foreign bodies from them that could be easily reached; wounds were cleaned, damaged parts tied up; In addition, stimulants were given and subcutaneous sprays of morphine were made. Thus, it took about 60 injured, the rest seemed to doctors only afterwards. Nothing was done except for the supply of first aid, but it was not possible to do anything. ”


Let's try to translate it from the "medical" into Russian. The 5 doctors, during the 2 hours of 15 minutes, were able to somehow treat the wounds of just “about 60” victims in battle. Even if they are 60, for every doctor there are 12 patients - a total of 11,5 minutes were spent on each one, and this is only the provision of first-aid and emergency care!

It is obvious that it was not about scratches.

But it is also necessary to understand that the Russian doctors of “Varyag” during the battle and returning to Chemulpo’s raid were not inactive either - they brought the wounded and they worked with them even before their foreign colleagues boarded the cruiser. In addition, T. Austin notes that some of the wounded and even first aid did not have time to provide on the "Varyag" and it was rendered after the evacuation of the Russian crews to foreign stationery.

In view of the foregoing, the information of V.F. Rudnev, if not completely reliable, then extremely close to the truth. This suggests the assertion that the 85-88 man, indicated by the wounded, the vast majority could no longer perform their official duties. And taking into account the 31 people killed during the battle, we can state that the data on the failure of the 45% of the personnel whose combat command was located on the upper deck, compiled by R.M. Melnikov quite reliable.



Without a doubt, the cruiser Varyag received not so many direct hits. Nevertheless, even leaving the controversial data on the failure of artillery (as we discussed earlier, there is no reason not to believe the data of VF Rudnev about the mass failure of 152-mm guns, but still) we see that “Varyag "Received heavy damage to the hull (roll on the port side to 10 hail, fires) and suffered heavy losses in personnel, completely precluding further attempts to break through.

Yes, the main damage "Varyag" got literally in the course of the force 15, but rather even 10 minutes (from 12.00 to 12.10). But in the rest of the time, projectiles exploded alongside its sides, scattering the ship with splinters that killed and wounded Russian sailors. In view of the foregoing, the well-known picture of Pyotr Timofeyevich Maltsev “The Varyag Commandors Are Fighting” does not at all seem to be an excessive artistic exaggeration - in the opinion of the author of this article, this is how it was.



In conclusion of this article, I would like to quote the words of the Talbot ship doctor, T. Austin, who, as we said above, is difficult to suspect of secret sympathies for the crew of the Russian cruiser:

“It’s not for me and not here to talk about the amazing courage with which the Russians were holding both during and after the battle, let me just say that their courage greatly helped in transporting and using the wounded.”


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166 comments
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  1. +15
    5 November 2018 06: 24
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk, it's time for you to write a book, not articles on IN !!! hi
    1. -6
      5 November 2018 09: 22
      Passage, about the influence, the position of "Varyag" relative to the island, on the accuracy of the Japanese fire - just brilliance! Alternatively!
      1. +11
        5 November 2018 10: 27
        Quote: Jura 27
        Passage, about the influence, the position of "Varyag" relative to the island, on the accuracy of the Japanese fire - just brilliance! Alternatively!

        Jura, at your leisure, read a thread about the role of benchmarks in managing artillery fire :))))
        1. +1
          5 November 2018 12: 33
          Andrei, so the Japanese had the opportunity to conduct their own topographic location?
          1. +9
            5 November 2018 13: 53
            Quote: Aviator_
            So the Japanese had the opportunity to conduct their own topographic location?

            They had the exact coordinates of the island + knowledge of its height :) In principle, this is enough
            1. -13
              5 November 2018 16: 30
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Quote: Aviator_
              So the Japanese had the opportunity to conduct their own topographic location?

              They had the exact coordinates of the island + knowledge of its height :) In principle, this is enough

              Ofuf to nifstat! People finally can not understand what kind of nonsense is, given the fact that both the shooter and the target are moving.
              1. +2
                5 November 2018 18: 04
                Quote: Jura 27
                Ofuf to nifstat! People finally can not understand what nonsense is

                Yurochka, I gave you a link from below. You read, ashamed, of course you won’t, but understanding what puddle you have once again settled in, you must think, will appear :))))
                1. -6
                  6 November 2018 10: 12
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Ofuf to nifstat! People finally can not understand what nonsense is

                  Yurochka, I gave you a link from below. You read, ashamed, of course you won’t, but understanding what puddle you have once again settled in, you must think, will appear :))))

                  Andrew, in a puddle in this case, you are sitting and, moreover, to your ears.
                  And in general, stop amusing me with all sorts of imaginary and true benchmarks when the enemy is in line of sight (in sight) at 25-30 kbt, otherwise I will die laughing. Who will pay attention to your "scientific" discoveries?
            2. +2
              5 November 2018 18: 06
              Well, the Japanese also had the exact size of the "Varyag" with the height of its masts. Still, in my opinion, the exact coordinates of the shooting ship are also needed.
        2. -8
          5 November 2018 16: 38
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Quote: Jura 27
          Passage, about the influence, the position of "Varyag" relative to the island, on the accuracy of the Japanese fire - just brilliance! Alternatively!

          Jura, at your leisure, read a thread about the role of benchmarks in managing artillery fire :))))

          And sho you read about the magical role of rappers in shooting at sea, from one moving ship to another?
          I want to urgently join the news of science from Andrew.
          1. +4
            5 November 2018 17: 44
            Yura, you do not like Andrey, noticeably and are looking for something to find fault with. By God, the following analogy suggests itself: the mother-in-law does not know what to find fault with her daughter-in-law and says: "Why does she walk like that?"
            If you have any arguments, you are more kind to voice them
            1. -4
              5 November 2018 22: 40
              Have you ever tried to give any arguments? At least on this issue .. Andrei in this case wrote complete nonsense. Nowhere is not half a word written about Asama’s preliminary sighting for this island, and there’s no point in this. Yura is right in calling Andrey's idea nonsense.
              1. +5
                5 November 2018 23: 41
                Quote: Saxahorse
                Nowhere is not half a word written about Asama’s preliminary sighting for this island,

                Saxahorse, do not judge that you are not crazy. More precisely, let’s you better tell us in all chilling details about how to shoot at the benchmark, and what is wrong with Platonov.
                I will laugh
                1. -2
                  6 November 2018 01: 11
                  Platonov’s just fine. Unlike you. It’s just that normal people don’t shoot at the benchmark when the main goal has long been looming in the sight. However, to whom am I talking about logic! Yes, even on holidays! laughing
                  1. +5
                    6 November 2018 07: 22
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    It’s just that normal people don’t shoot at the benchmark when the main goal has long been looming in the sight

                    :)))) Materiel, Saxahorse, materiel :)))) You are not even able to understand why you need a benchmark at all.
                    However, I never heard a refutation. Go ahead, wait :))))
                    1. -1
                      7 November 2018 00: 38
                      The benchmark is a virtual target. Shooting on a virtual target is carried out when the enemy is not visible or he is still very far away. Such a sighting does not replace the sighting directly on the target, but allows to reduce its time by first making part of the amendments. But if the enemy is nearby and thrashing at you from all trunks, normal people start shooting right at the enemy and not at virtual targets. :)

                      By the way, we haven’t reminded you yet that at the time of the RYA, there were no devices that used zeroing on a benchmark even in nature. The only method available at that time was zeroing "by observing the signs of falling shells". :)

                      Andrei is such a "neat" historian, ten years there, thirty years here, like there is no difference if people hawk? Generally speaking, it is a gross mistake to include artifacts from the mid-thirties in the description of the RJV.
                      1. +1
                        7 November 2018 07: 01
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The benchmark is a virtual target. Shooting on a virtual target is carried out when the enemy is not visible or he is still very far

                        Not:))))
                        Okay, Saxahorse, convinced - below, in a separate commentary I give a detailed explanation of shooting at the benchmark
                      2. -1
                        8 November 2018 00: 27
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Not:))))

                        Yes! :))))

                        In this separate commentary of yours, you don't have a single word about "benchmarking". You seem to have guessed how much you got into Platonov. :) The topic was changed dramatically. In your commentary, you suddenly started talking about how useful it is to use landmarks to determine distances. And again they wrote nonsense.

                        First, again look at the map and finally see that the width of the fairway is 1.5 miles, the Varangian made a turn for ten minutes, until he hit the island. And this means that the island, as a guideline, is corny located very on the side and very far from the Varangian. The distance to the island is comparable to the battle distance.

                        Secondly, normal people (this is not about you of course), on the approaches to the port, do not measure heights (which in Chemulpo change by 10 meters depending on the ebb / flow) and are guided by the navigation signs. Lighthouses, buoys, alignments .. This allows you to almost instantly determine the place on the map by bearing on these same signs.

                        Only in terms of sighting along the Varangian does this yield little. Below, they correctly assumed that the Japanese were very mistaken in determining the speed of the Varangian, and when they figured out that he was barely crawling, and then completely got up, then there were continuous coverings.
                      3. +1
                        8 November 2018 12: 40
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        In this separate commentary of yours, you do not have a word about "benchmarking". You seem to have guessed how much you got into Platonov. :)

                        Saxahorse I have there polkomment about using the rapper for shooting :))))
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        And again they wrote nonsense

                        Clear. Well, in general, I had no doubt that you did not confess your wrong
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        First, again look at the map and finally see that the width of the fairway is 1.5 miles, the Varangian made a ten-minute turn, until he hit the island.

                        Rave. Not a turn, but a turn, not 10, but 5. Saxahorse, he is such a saxahorse ...
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Secondly, normal people (this is not about you of course), on the approaches to the port, do not measure heights (which in Chemulpo at 10 meters change depending on the tide / ebb) and are guided by the navigation signs. Lighthouses, buoys, alignments ..

                        Saxahorse, don’t talk about normal people - this concept is unfamiliar to you. And you wrote even greater nonsense - the lighthouse was there, but in a completely different place, and what navigation signs or buoys did you intend to consider at a distance of 3,5 miles?
                        By the way, the low tide and the height of Yodolmi corrected for it naturally on Asama knew.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Below, they correctly assumed that the Japanese were very mistaken in determining the speed of the Varangian, and when they figured out that he was barely crawling, and then completely got up, then there were continuous coverings.

                        And then, as soon as the Varangian went back, here again everyone became confused in speed and stopped falling. Pichno
                      4. -1
                        9 November 2018 00: 47
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And you wrote even more nonsense - the lighthouse was there, but in a completely different place, and what navigation signs or buoys did you intend to consider at a distance of 3,5 miles?

                        So did you look at the Chemulpo map at least once or do you continue to argue all the same abstractedly from everything real? The double red line on this map is the target line. Be sure they are well visible on the shore. New lighthouses are marked in red. One of which stands directly on the island of Phamildo, and the second is just south of the Asama U-turn. Well, it’s very hard to miss sooo direct .. By the way, a lighthouse is a structure visible not less than 10 miles away, otherwise it is a buoy or some other navigation sign.

                        God .. And this person with such aplomb talks about naval tactics .. :(
                      5. +1
                        9 November 2018 18: 05
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The double red line on this map is the target line. Be sure they are well visible on the shore

                        Well what can I say?
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        God .. And this person with such aplomb talks about naval tactics .. :(
                      6. +1
                        9 November 2018 17: 29
                        [/ quote] And then, as soon as the Varangian went back, here everyone again got confused in speed and stopped falling. [Quote]

                        "Asama" made a circulation to the right, it became very difficult to direct, especially since "Varyag", having given full speed, began to pick up speed. And after the completion of the circulation, the distance increased sharply, so there were no hits.
            2. -2
              6 November 2018 10: 05
              Quote: vladcub
              Yura, you do not like Andrey, noticeably and are looking for something to find fault with. By God, the following analogy suggests itself: the mother-in-law does not know what to find fault with her daughter-in-law and says: "Why does she walk like that?"
              If you have any arguments, you are more kind to voice them

              I don’t find fault with anything, for this I need to write an article in the same size, but I only draw attention to the flagrant ignorance of the simplest things in science and technology by TS.
              Here you are riding in a tank, on your lap you have a map and the bell tower with the exact coordinates is indicated there. And here, you see the enemy tank to the right of the bell tower, you turn the tower and it is in your sight. The question is, by forcing you the coordinates of the bell tower and your coordinates relative to the bell tower (and other, different coordinates), if you can shoot directly at the enemy’s tank?
              1. +1
                6 November 2018 11: 16
                The question is, forcing you the coordinates of the bell tower and your coordinates relative to the bell tower ...

                Only for one, but important - for verification range (pillar) - with this, say, Varyag, there were problems))) But it’s easy if you stand still, Asama moved too.
                1. -1
                  6 November 2018 17: 29
                  Quote: anzar
                  The question is, forcing you the coordinates of the bell tower and your coordinates relative to the bell tower ...

                  Only for one, but important - for verification range (pillar) - with this, say, Varyag, there were problems))) But it’s easy if you stand still, Asama moved too.

                  It makes no sense to check the distance to the object in a kilometer from the target, if you can check the distance to the target.
              2. +1
                6 November 2018 15: 51
                Quote: Jura 27
                Here you are riding in a tank, on your lap you have a map and the bell tower with the exact coordinates is indicated there. And here, you see the enemy tank to the right of the bell tower, you turn the tower and it is in your sight. The question is, forcing you the coordinates of the bell tower and your coordinates relative to the bell tower

                They are not just needed, they are very needed. And the fact that understanding of this fact does not fit into your head does not cancel its truth
          2. +6
            5 November 2018 17: 57
            Quote: Jura 27
            And sho you read about the magical role of rappers in shooting at sea, from one moving ship to another?

            start with a simple one - take Platonov's famous encyclopedia dedicated to the Russian Navy (Encyclopedia of Soviet Surface Ships 1941-1945), open it on page 466 and read the chapter "Shooting at a Marine Target" - there is shooting at the benchmark (by the way, the sighting at the contrasting coastal landmark), and the so-called. fictitious benchmark - everything is there, chewed up for the little ones. Just right for you.
            Then I recommend reading the artillery manuals and instructions of the 20's and 30's - it is already described in more detail there
            1. -1
              5 November 2018 22: 35
              None of you have the "Encyclopedia .." Platonov A.V. Do not fool people, you are our dreamer. If you yourself do not understand what is written there, ask others.

              By the way, this is not the chapter "Shooting at sea targets" but one of the sections of Appendix # 2 under the same name.
              1. +3
                5 November 2018 23: 39
                Quote: Saxahorse
                None of you have the "Encyclopedia .." Platonov A.V. Do not fool people, you are our dreamer. If you yourself do not understand what is written there, ask others.

                It is clear, that is, Platonov was too tough for you :) And why am I not surprised?
                However ... I want to laugh. Dare the Saxacors, tell us the Truth with a capital P
                1. +1
                  6 November 2018 01: 42
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Dare the Saxacors, tell us the Truth with a capital P

                  Andrey, why are you feeding the troll?
                  Saxahorse is written, but Passerby is pronounced.
            2. -4
              6 November 2018 10: 07
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Quote: Jura 27
              And sho you read about the magical role of rappers in shooting at sea, from one moving ship to another?

              start with a simple one - take Platonov's famous encyclopedia dedicated to the Russian Navy (Encyclopedia of Soviet Surface Ships 1941-1945), open it on page 466 and read the chapter "Shooting at a Marine Target" - there is shooting at the benchmark (by the way, the sighting at the contrasting coastal landmark), and the so-called. fictitious benchmark - everything is there, chewed up for the little ones. Just right for you.
              Then I recommend reading the artillery manuals and instructions of the 20's and 30's - it is already described in more detail there

              Do not read books in which you do not understand anything. You have an enemy ship in sight, why do you need true and imaginary rappers?
              1. +2
                6 November 2018 15: 49
                Quote: Jura 27
                Do not read books in which you do not understand anything. You have an enemy ship in sight, why do you need true and imaginary rappers?

                Yura ... As it just became clear, you have no idea why you need a rapper and what artillery shooting is. Well, what can I say? It is pointless to explain something to you, but, in principle, if someone wants to hear, I will give a detailed explanation of the depth of your errors.
                1. -2
                  6 November 2018 17: 26
                  [/ quote] but, in principle, if someone wants to hear - I will give a detailed explanation [quote]

                  Duc, I have already expressed such a desire.
                  So, the board of the cruiser "Asam", the distance measured by the rangefinder to the "Varyag" is 25 kbt, there is no need to take a lead (because of the low speed of the Russians, - he pointed to the wheelhouse, - he hit the first tube), the Yapovsky starart, is ready to give the command to volley ... And then, from above, Andrei descends with a halo and in pure Japanese, says to the crazed starart: "Dude, you are not shooting correctly, you see an island, a kilometer from the Varyag, and so, its coordinates and height are known for certain and now I'll teach you how to use this to increase the number of hits. "
                  I hope to continue, performed by TS.
                  1. +1
                    6 November 2018 19: 00
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    Duc, I have already expressed such a desire.

                    And I wrote that it’s useless to explain anything to you. Jura, as in the case of the Passer-by, I will explain only those questions that you raise that are of interest to another audience. For you, I have already spent a prohibitive amount of time.
                    1. -1
                      7 November 2018 03: 55
                      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      Duc, I have already expressed such a desire.

                      And I wrote that it’s useless to explain anything to you. Jura, as in the case of the Passer-by, I will explain only those questions that you raise that are of interest to another audience. For you, I have already spent a prohibitive amount of time.

                      As I expected, you cannot say anything intelligible, i.e. once again merged to the fullest, piling frank nonsense with three boxes and citing incorrect sources from a completely different time.
            3. -1
              6 November 2018 17: 38
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Quote: Jura 27
              And sho you read about the magical role of rappers in shooting at sea, from one moving ship to another?

              start with a simple one - take Platonov's famous encyclopedia dedicated to the Russian Navy (Encyclopedia of Soviet Surface Ships 1941-1945), open it on page 466 and read the chapter "Shooting at a Marine Target" - there is shooting at the benchmark (by the way, the sighting at the contrasting coastal landmark), and the so-called. fictitious benchmark - everything is there, chewed up for the little ones. Just right for you.
              Then I recommend reading the artillery manuals and instructions of the 20's and 30's - it is already described in more detail there

              Andryusha does not even understand that she is nonsense of the highest standard. Between SUAO 1899 g. And 1999g. there is a difference ?
              1. +1
                6 November 2018 19: 01
                Quote: Jura 27
                Andryusha does not even understand that she is nonsense of the highest standard. Between SUAO 1899 g. And 1999g. there is a difference ?

                No, Yura, it’s you who are unable to understand the basics, the basics of fire control
                1. -3
                  7 November 2018 03: 56
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Andryusha does not even understand that she is nonsense of the highest standard. Between SUAO 1899 g. And 1999g. there is a difference ?

                  No, Yura, it’s you who are unable to understand the basics, the basics of fire control

                  Drain protected (s).
          3. +1
            5 November 2018 19: 11
            ... on the face of an inferiority complex ...
            1. -1
              5 November 2018 20: 53
              Or maybe all the same there?
              1. 0
                7 November 2018 11: 17
                Let's converge on "full face" :)))
            2. +3
              7 November 2018 14: 46
              Quote: Polkanov
              ... on the face of an inferiority complex ...

              By the way, it became interesting why Yura's shoulder straps are not displayed - it turned out that he is in deep "karma" minuses. But what is interesting - viewing his profile revealed that Yura only comments on my articles. Nothing else is interesting to him on the topar :))))) That is, out of 139 of his comments (for today), not one is devoted to the works of some other author. Only for me :))))))) Should I start to be proud? :)))))))))
              1. -1
                7 November 2018 18: 21
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Quote: Polkanov
                ... on the face of an inferiority complex ...

                By the way, it became interesting why Yura's shoulder straps are not displayed - it turned out that he is in deep "karma" minuses. But what is interesting - viewing his profile revealed that Yura only comments on my articles. Nothing else is interesting to him on the topar :))))) That is, out of 139 of his comments (for today), not one is devoted to the works of some other author. Only for me :))))))) Should I start to be proud? :)))))))))

                Minus is put by people who are not in the subject of RYAV and elementary knowledge in science and for whom the word "benchmark" (and even more so "imaginary benchmark") is the highest revelation, that is, such words can only be spoken by a true guru who needs to plus signs, just for knowing such words. And the fact that the benchmark, in any way, does not relate to the shootout of "Asam" and "Varyag", they do not care. The guru said "rapper", then so be it.
                I will not, unlike you, it is easy to blame you for lying, but I remind you that I had at least one comment on the topic of VU, one of the sweet couple (Chepigi), because I was given it there, only a month earlier.
                Well, it's not my fault that only you have been writing on topics of interest to me lately, and even making "scientific" discoveries in areas where everything has long been known. Therefore, having laughed, I cannot refrain from commenting on this. But you noticed that I no longer criticize "little things", especially since you do not answer them either to me or to others.
                If Valentine writes the post, then it may be that I will write something.
                And yes, you can be proud, you are criticized by a person who is one of the few who knows at least something on the topics discussed, in contrast to the "plus-minusists". bully
                1. +1
                  8 November 2018 12: 41
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  And yes, you can be proud, you are criticized by a person who, one of the few who know at least something on the topics discussed

                  wassat laughing
                  You won’t praise yourself ...
  2. +3
    5 November 2018 06: 55
    Dear Andrey, article good
    As for the Russian cruiser, he, having consumed approximately 160 152-mm and 50 75-mm shells, apparently did not get hit in Japanese ships. "Korean" fired 22 203 mm, 27 152 mm and 3 75 mm shells on Japanese ships, also, alas, to no avail.

    Yes good It really seems like the truth smile
    Arguing theoretically, we can assume that one or two shells still hit the Japanese - it is possible that if such hits did not harm the Japanese, the latter did not reflect them in the reports, but there is no evidence that the "Varyag" really hit someone no.

    No. I still don’t agree. As much as I would not like to introduce the Japanese as liars, they meticulously described all the hits Yes Here is an example of descriptions of injuries sustained in a battle with a wok
    https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/28064.html
    In any case, this is my personal opinion. So I am more than convinced that the Varyag did not cause any damage.
    And so in general it’s wonderful. By this article hi
    1. +7
      5 November 2018 08: 45
      Having put a plus sign in this certainly interesting article, I want to ask you Andrey (if you will allow me) as a specialist about such a nuance - that the Varangian did not cause any harm to Asama and other ships because
      As much as I would not like to introduce the Japanese as liars, they meticulously described all the hits

      One of the articles in the series spoke of postscripts and conspiracy in the Russian ship documentation, distorting the real state of things.
      Then the question is: and the Japanese, who supposedly could not do this by definition - are they better, cleaner, more worthy of the Russians? More decent and glorious people are obtained - that is, from another test, maybe from another planet? But in my opinion (in general) - there are no more cunning, duplicitous and dodgy beasts than Asians. Especially Japanese with Chinese hi
      1. +5
        5 November 2018 10: 32
        Quote: Adjutant
        Then the question is: and the Japanese, who supposedly could not do this by definition - are they better, cleaner, more worthy of the Russians?

        Of course not:))). The fact is that the Japanese personally wrote the "Top Secret History of the War at Sea" for themselves, and from some moment (June 1904) the commanders received a separate order to indicate everything scrupulously accurately in their reports. And their Top Secret History was for internal use, as a source it "surfaced" much later than WWII, so there is a lot of trust in it
        1. +3
          5 November 2018 11: 43
          They received an order, but were they 100% executed? That is the question.
          Maybe of course the samurai discipline is higher than Russian officer honor (which I doubt) - yes, human nature is the same
          1. +3
            5 November 2018 13: 51
            Quote: Adjutant
            They received an order, but did they execute on 100%?

            It is possible that it doesn’t, but it’s such a thing - only those hits could be hidden, as a result of which no repair was required.
            The point was that the Japanese had enough bureaucracy, and if you need to change or repair something, you need to write a report with a justification, receive materials or other, etc. And such things can no longer be hidden - the commander will hide, the shipyard will report anyway.
          2. +1
            5 November 2018 18: 05
            I think the same way. The psychology of people is such that after a fight he will say to others or to himself: "I punched Kolka or, but it didn't hurt me"
      2. 0
        6 November 2018 01: 54
        There is also an English description of the battle; it was also compiled not for a wide putzblick.
        http://tsushima.su/RU/libru/i/Page_7/page_18/page_20/biblchemulpodoc/chemulpo_003/
    2. +4
      5 November 2018 10: 29
      Quote: Rurikovich
      As much as I would not like to introduce the Japanese as liars, they meticulously described all the hits

      When they received the corresponding order. But 27 January 1904 r it was not yet. And in the battle with Ulsan - was :)))
    3. 0
      5 November 2018 17: 58
      Already the last time someone quoted a quote about the Japanese, that these guys are cunning and "shadow on the slab" to direct. I'm not going to justify the Russian commanders, but let's imagine the following analogy: if you take a handful of peas and throw them on the floor, there is a high probability that at least one will hit the wall. The Russian artillerymen tried, if not to sink the Jap, then at least drive it away.
  3. +5
    5 November 2018 10: 50
    It turns out a very good cycle, dear colleague!
    I think that since the time of logging Abakus and DonKisa nothing has been better on this topic.
    1. 0
      5 November 2018 13: 52
      Thank you, dear Ivan! drinks
  4. +1
    5 November 2018 13: 12
    Dear Andrey, thank you very much for the photo of "Korean" after the fight, I see it for the first time.
    1. +1
      5 November 2018 13: 52
      Greetings, dear colleague, a photo from a book about a Korean, I will completely send it to you, there is still there :)))
  5. +5
    5 November 2018 14: 12
    It is quite fair and logical. And - a clear illustration of the combat survivability of cruisers of that time with deck placement of artillery, with high density. On the "Varyag", probably, the density was the highest of the 6000-kov, and less than a dozen shells were enough for it to suffer serious losses in manpower, which made further combat difficult. The Japanese were fabulously lucky in this regard - ALL of their armored decks had extremely closely located deck artillery, but we did not have shells that could punish them for such an approach ...
    1. +3
      5 November 2018 14: 57
      Quote: arturpraetor
      The Japanese in this regard are fabulously lucky

      That's right, dear Arthur Praetor!
    2. 0
      5 November 2018 16: 43
      Quote: arturpraetor
      but we didn’t have shells that could punish them for such an approach ....


      In general, there were such shells, but, it seems to me, the desire to penetrate the armor of some admirals prevailed over reason.
      1. 0
        5 November 2018 16: 52
        Yes, the landmines from us, it seems, were also not without complaints. Although, of course, there was a bust with BBs.
      2. +1
        5 November 2018 17: 59
        Quote: 27091965i
        In general, there were such shells, but, it seems to me, the desire to penetrate the armor of some admirals prevailed over reason.

        There were, but formally. But in fact we didn’t have a landmine. We can say that there were 2 varieties of BB :)))) Understood that the landmine should be different, but the plants of what needed to be produced could not
        1. +1
          5 November 2018 19: 10
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Understood that the landmine must be different, but the factories of what needed to be produced could not


          Produced. It was called "Melinite steel bomb", it contained 5,4 kg of explosive, it was intended for 35 caliber 6 inch guns. With the beginning of mass production of 6 inch Kane guns and shells for them, production was reduced. They left them for ships armed with 6 inch 35 caliber guns and for the same coastal artillery guns.
          The production technology was known and the factories produced these shells, and that’s why they didn’t do them for Kane’s guns, this is another matter.
          1. 0
            5 November 2018 19: 22
            Quote: 27091965i
            The production technology was known and the factories produced these shells, and that’s why they didn’t do them for Kane’s guns, this is another matter.

            The answer is very simple - lightweight shells :))) After all, you brought the RP data of an old-style shell, but to push so much into lightened shells did not work out hi
            1. 0
              5 November 2018 20: 21
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              After all, you brought the data of the HE shell of the old model, but to shove so much into the lightweight it was no longer possible


              For the 35 caliber 6 inches, different shells were made, the light according to their data are similar to the 6 inch shells for Kane guns. But they were even lighter than the length of the 2,5 caliber.
              1. 0
                6 November 2018 01: 23
                Quote: 27091965i
                For the 35 caliber 6 inches, different shells were made, the light according to their data are similar to the 6 inch shells for Kane guns. But they were even lighter than the length of the 2,5 caliber.

                Dear Igor, are you sure that we are talking about ammunition for naval guns, and not to 6-dm howitzers?
                1. 0
                  6 November 2018 11: 13
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Dear Igor, are you sure that we are talking about ammunition for naval guns, and not to 6-mm howitzers


                  Dear Andrei, we use modern terminology, in our documents and publications until 1905-1906 the MTK on artillery used the terminology adopted at that time high-explosive bombs, ordinary bombs, core, grenade, although the term high-explosive shell is also used. The difference between a high-explosive bomb and an ordinary bomb is the location of the fuse. The first is used bottom, the second head.
                  On the question of howitzer or naval gun, in 1895-1897 between the fleet, the army, the Ministry of Finance was, I think you can call it that, a discussion. The fleet wanted to replace 35 gauge 6 inches with Kane guns, the army wanted such guns for coastal batteries. Well, the Ministry of Finance did not want to give money. A compromise was found, in principle, for 35 gauge 6-inch guns a charge consisting of smokeless powder was developed. This suited the army, since a 2,5-gauge projectile and a weight of 33 to 40 kg were used on coastal batteries consisting of these guns. This charge gave the speed of these shells from 570 to 600 m / s, firing range was up to 9000 meters. In the Navy, they frowned, so to speak, but agreed that the charge was suitable for firing light shells, HE shells or bombs, here someone already likes it.
            2. +1
              5 November 2018 20: 34
              The answer is very simple - lightweight shells :)))

              I don’t think that the shells for 6 "/ 45 are lightweight, it is rather a matter of switching to steel due to the higher initial speed of 6" / 45. And the weight of modern shells of this caliber is of the same order.
              The old shells are cast-iron, and with brown powder, the acceleration during the shot is sharp, hence the thick walls = heavy weight. And ext. the volume is possibly even less (with the same length), but the weight of the filling depends on its type (including gunpowder?).
          2. +1
            5 November 2018 20: 18
            It was called "Melinite Steel Bomb", it contained 5,4 kg of explosive, it was intended for 35 caliber 6 inch guns

            And there was explosives right Mellinite? And in what year? I read everywhere that the technology of safe equipment with Mellinite was unknown in Russia.
            1. +1
              5 November 2018 22: 03
              Quote: anzar
              And there was explosives right Mellinite? And in what year?


              Dear Anzar, unfortunately I cannot give an exact date for the start of production of these shells. The reference book of that time indicates the types of shells; "ordinary cast iron bomb" explosive charge rifle or coarse-grained powder, "steel armor-piercing bomb" explosive charge smokeless powder, "steel high-explosive melinite bomb" explosive charge melinite.
              1. 0
                6 November 2018 09: 34
                And this is not for land guns, an hour?
      3. +3
        6 November 2018 04: 47
        Quote: 27091965i
        it seems to me that the desire to break through the armor of some admirals prevailed over reason.

        This is true, of course, but only in part. Everything rested on technology and money. The Warsaw Rudnitsky factory, having bought a batch of blanks in France, offered good, high-explosive shells.
        Alas, it turned out to be not so simple.
    3. -3
      5 November 2018 22: 50
      Quote: arturpraetor
      The Japanese in this regard were fabulously lucky - ALL of their armored decks had extremely closely located deck artillery, but we did not have shells that could punish them for such an approach ....

      Generally speaking, there were. Look at the damage to Iwate. It’s more correct to say - hits were not enough ..
      1. +4
        5 November 2018 23: 26
        I'll see when "Iwate" becomes an armored deck)))
        1. 0
          6 November 2018 01: 07
          But in vain. The Japanese idea of ​​stacking almost a third of the supply of shells right in the turret or in the casemate could hiccup them with a sufficient number of hits. Hits precisely by Russian light, armor-piercing shells. So the idea is not as bad as it is in a hurry to submit it now.
          1. +1
            6 November 2018 01: 27
            But it was originally about armored cruisers, with an open deck placement of artillery. What does the armored Iwate have to do with it? A ship with completely different security characteristics smile
            1. +1
              7 November 2018 00: 23
              And the Japanese did not have armored cruisers capable of opposing the Russians on equal terms. But there were armored ones that fended off the firepower of the Russian six-thousanders.
              1. 0
                7 November 2018 02: 47
                Quote: Saxahorse
                the Japanese did not have armored cruisers able to withstand the Russians on equal terms.

                Against the "six-thousander" you can safely put "Chitose", "Kasagi" or "Takasago". Two 8 '' Armstrong guns, dear colleague, this is not a joke to you.
                1. 0
                  7 November 2018 23: 10
                  Two 8 "with manual loading is sparse in terms of the density of fire. Matsushita had 12" at all, but no use. And the main guns of 120 mm are only against destroyers.
                  1. 0
                    8 November 2018 05: 45
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    Two 8 "with manual loading is sparse in terms of fire density

                    "Varyag" with "Askold" fired hundreds of shells from 6 '' guns, but never hit. "Asama" from 27 shells of the main caliber hit the "Varyag" three.
                    The statistics of the Russian-Japanese war at sea show that the accuracy of fire of 6 "guns, even Japanese, even Russian, is several times lower than that of 8" guns. So I repeat, you can safely put "Chitose", "Kasagi" or "Takasago" against the "six-thousanders".
                    Quote: Saxahorse
                    And the main guns in 120 mm are only against destroyers.

                    Yah ? And here is how 120 mm shells worked on the battleship Retvizan, for example.
                    1. +2
                      8 November 2018 10: 43
                      The statistics of the Russo-Japanese war at sea show that the accuracy of 6 '' guns, whether Japanese or Russian, is several times lower than that of 8 '' guns.

                      This is true, but the same statistics say that "Chitose", "Kasagi" or "Takasago" did not get anywhere out of 8 - they were not a stable platform.
                      So I repeat, you can safely put "Chitose", "Kasagi" or "Takasago" against the "six-thousanders".

                      Boldly, successfully, no)), of course, with equality in the rest (shells, crew ...)
                      And regarding the efficiency of 120mm, there wouldn't be much difference in the effect of calibers (120 or 152) for a "golden" hit under the belt. However, getting into the casemate of the guns did not disable it, for all the "sensitivity" of the Russian guns.
                      1. 0
                        9 November 2018 02: 23
                        Quote: anzar
                        the same statistic says that "Chitose", "Kasagi" or "Takasago" didn't make it anywhere out of 8 "

                        Do you have statistics? And you can give an indication of the source to start at least the number of shells fired by these cruisers in the general battles of the Russo-Japanese?
                        Quote: anzar
                        regarding the effectiveness of 120mm - there would not be much difference in the effect of calibers (120 or 152)

                        Why are you telling me this? You tell my opponent about this, he said that guns in xnumx mm it's only against destroyers.
                      2. 0
                        10 November 2018 12: 15
                        Do you have statistics? And you can give an indication of the source to start with at least ...

                        Dear Comrade, why do you resort to excuses? Do you dispute this statement or not? I don’t have statistics, so I read from many others. authors, including the respected author of this cycle is Andrei from Chelyabinsk. Here from him ask sources and frolic from whom they ... more.
                        Why are you telling me this? You tell my opponent about it ...

                        They did not understand me. There would be no difference in the effect of the gauges for TOGO falling (quite rare) under the belt / deck. In both cases, the volume of water would be 400t (the volume of the flooded compartment). On the contrary, if hit on board / casemate / deck, the difference in damage between 120mm and 152mm would be very significant (with equally good shells).
                      3. 0
                        11 November 2018 04: 33
                        Quote: anzar
                        Do you dispute this statement or not?

                        Let's talk aloud.
                        In the Battle of Tsushima, the cruisers Oleg and Aurora, among others, fought with the 3rd combat detachment, which included the cruisers Chitose and Kasagi. As you know, both Russian cruisers were hit by 8 caliber shells.

                        Quote: anzar
                        I don’t have statistics, so I read from many others. authors

                        Here is a diagram showing at least two direct hits by 8 '' shells on the Aurora cruiser.

                        Are these "many authors" provedthat these two hits were the result of shooting by "Garibaldians" or "Asamoids"? Or is there proof ofthat the shells hitting "Oleg" 8 "were not fired by" Chitose "and" Kasagi "?
                      4. 0
                        11 November 2018 20: 52
                        Did these "many authors" prove that these two hits were the result of shooting "Garibaldians" or "Asamoids"? Or is there evidence that ...

                        I don’t remember, but there was no challenge to their assertion that “Chitose” and “Kasagi” didn’t get anywhere out of 8. As I have already noted, I’m only an amateur, I don’t work with sources - I trust the “experts” (incl. colleagues Andrey, Zemlyak, etc.), at times discussed with them only from the standpoint of logic - it hurts a lot of absurdities in these “statistics.” You are also an “expert” and this is what I will discuss with you:
                        1. Underlining the word "proved"As for these two hits, you are leaving out proof that they are indeed 8." I do not dispute this (I have no information), but the Russians made a lot of mistakes with this. Perhaps the unexpectedly great power of the yap let down. mellinite land mines. With the Tsushima battleships, every hit is 12 ", there are already 8" there.))) Reliable proof of calibrating is large shell fragments, but they did not always "bother" (to look for) with the precision of reports, and the high blasting shimosa usually crumbled the shell into small pieces.
                        2. It is alarming that in this scheme only 8 "hits are indicated. Where did the hits from the numerous 6" and "almost equal to them" 120mm go? Maybe only 8 "are identified reliably? Or Japanese 6" act like Russian 8 "?)))
          2. +1
            6 November 2018 03: 23
            Quote: Saxahorse
            The Japanese idea of ​​stacking almost a third of the supply of shells right in the tower or in the casemate could hiccup them strongly with enough

            This is not a Japanese, but an English idea, an old friend.
            Here is a diagram of the installation of the main caliber of the armored cruiser "O'Higgins" in the face and profile. See, 21 is the shell under the walls?


            Examples can be continued on later ships of English construction.
            1. 0
              7 November 2018 00: 18
              The British had shells equipped with gunpowder. Which significantly reduces the likelihood of detonation. But the Japanese shells were equipped with shimoza.
  6. +3
    5 November 2018 16: 57
    Thank you Andrey! You really need to write books, honestly.
    It is, of course, a pity, but the shooting of the Varyag was not at all up to par. But you have previously explained the reason for this state of affairs. And how I would like ...
    And with such losses in the team, the continuation of the battle would be unnecessary suicide.
    But there still remains one question: where did this damned sunken destroyer come from? It’s not a boat. Who saw this? Still strange.

    Thanks again and good luck in everything! hi
  7. +2
    5 November 2018 17: 36
    Quote: Jura 27
    Passage, about the influence, the position of "Varyag" relative to the island, on the accuracy of the Japanese fire - just brilliance! Alternatively!

    Then please explain if you can. The author at least tried to explain.
  8. +2
    5 November 2018 18: 33
    Andrey, you have a GREAT cycle. I am bribed and enraged by your hard work: another time you do it through force, something and it turns out of the blue.
    Sorry for the impudence, such a request: how much better were the Japanese shells? Some sources write that the Japanese had awesome shells, while others say that the shells were ordinary. How is it really?
  9. +3
    5 November 2018 20: 49
    Quote: Pillau
    Andrey from Chelyabinsk, it's time for you to write a book, not articles on IN !!!

    Yeah, it's just a scientific study. Maybe the monograph will work out? No, but what? Why not?
  10. 0
    5 November 2018 23: 25
    The fifth (or sixth?) Hit in the Russian cruiser was recorded on 12.06, almost simultaneously with being hit on a bulwark (this does not contradict Russian reports).

    Over time, Russian reports have one big trouble. There are only three intervals in the Varyag logbook. 11:47, 12:05, 12:15, 12:40 - the last is the Varangian ceased fire. All other events are squeezed somewhere there, and, as already mentioned, in a confused order. It’s even worse with Koreans’s magazine, Belyaev’s apparently the minimum unit of time, probably he had a cuckoo clock instead of a chronometer in the wheelhouse .. All other details are from the Japanese. Moreover, from different commanders and not the fact that they see the same thing. Hence, some calculations based on time are everything from the evil one.

    It is interesting that the hit that caused the flooding of the fireman during the battle on Japanese ships was not recorded, this damage was discovered already during ship lifting operations.

    And the hit is very interesting. The dimensions of the hole 1.97x1.01 meters are very large for a 6 "projectile. From them there are usually holes of the type 0.75x0.6m of which several are described. And what and when they got into the stoker is unclear. This is a question of accuracy and Japanese descriptions too.

    And, finally, the last hole was the result of another shell hit with a caliber of 120-152 mm. The cruiser probably received this hit upon returning to Chemulpo, although, on the other hand, given that it was not recorded in either Japanese or Russian reports, the shell could hit the cruiser at any time during the battle

    The neutrals note in their reports that the fire that broke out at the stern of the abandoned cruiser was accompanied by numerous explosions of ammunition. Kataev believes that most of the holes and damage at the stern are caused by this particular fire and is not related to the battle.

    But no one has yet undertaken to refute the fact that the Korean turned around and went to the Chemulpo fairway almost simultaneously with the Varyag. And if the cruiser really yielded 18-20 knots, it is obvious that the gunboat was far behind - with a difference in speed of 4,5-6,5 knots in 20 minutes, the lag would be 1,5-2,17 miles.

    It's funny, but the author himself, literally a few paragraphs above, refuted this point. In the quote quoted by the author, Yashiro indicates that at 12:10, when the Varangian poked at the unfortunate island of Pamildo, the Korean was already noticeably north of this island. Remembering the schemes of their last article, where the U-turn began much south of Fr. Phamilda, the assumption immediately arises that the Korean darted back at full speed, and apparently had a head start at 10-15 minutes while the Varangian rubbed himself against the stones of the island.

    The Varyag’s unsuccessful maneuver, perhaps, didn’t even play a special role, because, as we can see, the bulk of the hits nevertheless fell on the starboard of the cruiser, that is, even before the Varyag made a U-turn island ”, turning to the enemy with the left side.

    This is not true. Only three hits from 11-14 fell on the starboard side. The rest is either definitely the left side or the deck, it is not clear from which side it was hit. There is every reason to believe that the Varyag got most of the hits on the left side. And this is due to both the minimum speed of the ship and stomping on the rocks near the island. Kataev, for example, is also sure of this.

    In short, Rudnev did everything in his power to destroy his cruiser. Aurora and Oleg vigorously maneuvering in battle at full speed, so many hits were received in a few hours of battle. Minimum speed, longitudinal fire, a gross navigational error made the Varangian simply a helpless target for Asama. Rudnev has a lot of complaints over these 15 minutes of the battle, I don’t know how he showed himself in diplomats, but as a combat commander, everything is very bad ..
    1. +4
      6 November 2018 11: 19
      Quote: Saxahorse
      In short, Rudnev did everything in his power to destroy his cruiser.


      Do you think that the experienced commander deliberately "stuck" the cruiser in near-island shoals with a 15-degree rudder deflection? What to stand without speed under fire?
      For me, this is more a confirmation of the loss of control of the cruiser than a far-fetched "malice" of the commander.
      1. 0
        7 November 2018 00: 26
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Do you think that the experienced commander deliberately "stuck" the cruiser in near-island shoals with a 15-degree rudder deflection? What to stand without speed under fire?

        I believe that going into battle at 7 knots, and even with a passing course, is already a demonstration of the commander's sufficient contribution to his defeat.
    2. -2
      7 November 2018 04: 51
      [/ quote] There are a lot of complaints against Rudnev during these 15 minutes of the battle, I don’t know how he showed himself in diplomats, but as a combat commander everything is very bad .. [quote]

      Fake that Rudnev is not so much the commander of a cruiser of the 1st rank, but a diplomat, was launched just because the aforementioned showed total incompetence as the commander of a warship. However, as a diplomat, it’s the same, total incompetence - he could not use the status of a neutral port, which three hospitals were ready to support.
    3. 0
      7 November 2018 08: 19
      You do not take into account that the Varangian had nowhere to energetically maneuver in course and speed.
      He was shot at the training ground ..
      1. 0
        7 November 2018 17: 03
        Quote: Shturman_50
        You do not take into account that the Varangian had nowhere to energetically maneuver in course and speed.
        He was shot at the training ground ..

        But were the Russians and the Yapis in different dimensions? Yapam was where to energetically maneuver describing the pretzel at speeds up to 18 knots, but the Russians did not find a place.
        1. -1
          9 November 2018 06: 26
          Look at the map ...
          1. 0
            9 November 2018 07: 55
            Quote: Shturman_50
            Look at the map ...

            Duc looked. And?
  11. +4
    6 November 2018 01: 07
    oh, we are gradually approaching the awards, pushing thanks to the author through the rubble of the most described battle of the most described separately taken cruiser in the history of the RI fleet smile
    and what we see
    control of the cruiser was, apparently ... which, apparently, caused the fire ... Apparently, the Japanese armored cruiser ... Most likely, this was the case ... Apparently, it was at this time ... It can be assumed that the Russian sailors were the victims of the optical cheating ...

    in my opinion, there are too many assumptions for a particular part, a story from the facts examined in detail by Andrey (which is very characteristic of him for other cycles good ) due to the lack of guilt of Rudnev, which readers should not forget lol goes too far into the zone of speculation.
    And there are so many of them that it becomes difficult to comment.
    For example, of course, suspended dust (and sometimes settled) that flour, that cotton, that of coal or wood dust, as well as sugar, chicory and much more can explode - Table 7.3.4 Lower concentration limit of ignition, smoldering temperature, ignition and self-ignition explosive dust from PUE: Chapter 7.3. Electrical installations in hazardous areas (Classification of explosive mixtures in accordance with GOST 12.1.011-78) and it is also necessary to check whether this Kramp installed electrical equipment in explosion-proof version in accordance with chapter 7.3 of the EMP, or he will answer for this wink , but here the danger of a food exploding explosion on the cruiser is, in my opinion, a little very exaggerated, there was no elevator there.
    Honestly, we also hardly believe in the ability of the Japanese in the beginning of the 20th century to shoot using a coastal reference frame at a moving ship from another moving ship - for this it was necessary to have completely different fire control devices than those that they might have at the beginning of the century , of a completely different level, and even in such a dynamic battle that the Chemul-range and the bearing of the opponents changed continuously, they had to have devices starting from the Central Asian Central Command, which the Japanese could not have
    The sighting of the rapper consists in firing at any contrasting coastal landmark, the bearing and the distance to which are entered into the central firing machine (CAC). Observing the fall of their shells relative to this benchmark, they measure deviations and introduce them in the form of corrections to the CAC.

    and a completely different level of optical rangefinders, which then took the first steps in fact. And then you can get to the lead cable from page 463 at Platonov lol
    It is much more likely to believe in sighting
    The method of "observing signs of the fall"

    from page 467 of the same Platonov.
    Regarding the speed of the Varyag back, it definitely exceeded the speed "there", and taking into account the fact that the flow was oncoming, the propeller speed clearly exceeded the corresponding speed of 14 knots, which Rudnev put forward in his report as the maximum possible for a cruiser.
    From what follows, when leaving, Rudnev did not fully use either the navigation capabilities or the capabilities of the Varyag vehicles for the cruiser’s maximum speed exit. Why he did so is a separate issue, but the fact that both the navigation capabilities and the car made it possible to exit much faster than Rudnev actually came out.
    Next
    The “Varangian” turned right away, increased its speed and took refuge behind the island of Phalmido in order to get out of the fire and set about putting out the fires. At this time, the "Korean" went north of the island of Phalmido and continued to fire. "

    from which it follows that the Korean returned to the raid ahead of the Varangian at least at the beginning of their return trip, so that the Varangian could have a speed exceeding the speed of the Korean.
    Honestly, it’s difficult to describe the comments that arise, especially as to why Rudnev turned back, although there were undoubtedly no problems with the cruiser’s control - apart from a strong desire to immediately leave the islet, the Japanese shot very cleverly.
    Though sit down and write a cycle with your version, but the administrators will probably doubt it - you need to turn the History section into the Varyag’s history section winked
    The farther, the more somehow there is a suspicion that the nocturnal bird is pulled on a model of the globe to help Rudnev. However, it is very interesting to read, completely unexpected plot twists (the elevator is generally super :) we look forward to continuing good
    1. PPD
      +1
      6 November 2018 19: 26
      Quote: Avior
      Electrical installations in hazardous areas (Classification of explosive mixtures according to GOST 12.1.011-78)

      It is unlikely that Americans are familiar with our GOSTs. But in this
      Quote: Avior
      did this Kramp install explosion-proof electrical equipment there in accordance with chapter 7.3 of the Electrical Code

      easy to believe, given the epic with cars. I got the impression that they were making a cruiser. But Kramp's lawyers otmazhut - he is not familiar with the heads of the PUE, he did not pass GOSTs. Village in one word. laughing
    2. +1
      7 November 2018 08: 15
      Quote: Avior
      but the danger of a food processor explosion on the cruiser is, in my opinion, a little very exaggerated; there was no elevator there.

      What's the difference? :))) On the elevators, it is not the grain / flour stock that explodes, but the dust suspension in the air when a certain concentration is reached. And the presence of a room filled with this suspension, which you called a subcatter with a light hand, but which in fact was a provision department, would lead to the destruction of it and the adjacent premises.
      Quote: Avior
      Honestly, the Japanese also have little faith in the ability of the Japanese at the beginning of the 20 century to shoot with the help of coastal rappers on a moving ship from another moving ship - for this it was necessary to have completely different fire control devices

      Read below :)))) Specifically painted, why did you need a benchmark :)))
      Quote: Avior
      Regarding the speed of the Varyag back, it definitely exceeded the speed "there"

      (shrug) I give calculations, can you answer me the same? :)))) Calculate the speed of the Varyag there and back :))))
      Quote: Avior
      and taking into account the fact that the current was oncoming, the rotor speeds clearly exceeded the corresponding speeds in 14 nodes

      And I believe that no and proved it in numbers. Refute if you have such an opportunity :)))
      Quote: Avior
      from which it follows that the Korean returned to raid ahead of the Varangian at least at the beginning of their return journey

      No, it should not be :))) Moreover, this could not be in principle :))) Work more carefully with the map. Well, or ... generally work with the map :))))
      Quote: Avior
      Honestly, it’s difficult to describe the comments that arise, especially as to why Rudnev turned back, although there were undoubtedly no problems with the cruiser’s control - apart from a strong desire to immediately leave the islet, the Japanese shot very cleverly.

      All your "remarks" ultimately boil down to "Runev panicked and made an unacceptable maneuver that even a cabin boy would not have done", justification - "I think so", is it worth starting?
      Quote: Avior
      Though sit down and write a cycle with your version

      With this "argumentation" - better not :))))
      Believe what you want, it’s not a question, I won’t argue, but if you post the article - I’ll take it on the shelves, do you need it? :))))
      1. 0
        8 November 2018 02: 44
        I don’t know if you’ll read it, I’m late, not so much over time, sorry
        On the elevators, it is not the grain / flour reserve that explodes, but the dust suspension in the air when a certain concentration is reached.

        and this concentration is about 50 g of flour per 1 m3, that is, there should be 20 m3 per 1 kg of flour, per bag - 1000 m3 of empty space. If there is more concentration, then the explosion will not happen.
        On warships, unlike elevators, flour mills and even holds of a cargo ship, there is not much empty space, so the amount of flour that can participate in the explosion is very small. There will not be an explosion there anyway, the maximum cotton. Well, you don’t expect to blow up a cruiser with a bag of flour? But this probability is not high either, since in a very limited room the concentration will almost certainly exceed the required one, and taking into account imperfect mixing, it is not serious to talk about such a danger, especially against the background of other problems - there is plenty of flour for an explosive cruiser.
        By the way, since Kramp was making a cruiser for Russia, he was supposed to do explosive zone V-2a according to Russian standards. lol
        Class B-2 zones are located in rooms where combustible dusts or fibers are transferred to a suspended state in such an amount and with such properties that they can create explosive mixtures with air under normal operating conditions; Class B-2a zones are those where hazardous conditions do not arise during normal operation, but may arise as a result of accidents or malfunctions.

        in the galley, she demanded the appropriate execution of a dough mixer with an electric drive, which was first put on Russian ships.
        And by the way, speaking, these are not only native standards, they are also IEC standards, from which the relatives were written off, and the IP should be appropriate. In addition, it is necessary to find out whether during installation the Kramp checked the condition of the mating surfaces of the covers of the input devices, the presence of the required seals and the explosion protection sign? From him, a scoundrel, everything can be expected !! laughing
        Read below :)))) Specifically painted, why did you need a benchmark :)))

        I read. Moreover, along with our grandfather’s awards and a map compiled with his military route, lies his souvenir-instruction for artillerymen, published as a result of the war, there are plenty of rappers there.
        Zeroing with reference points is performed if it is impossible or undesirable to shoot at the target — for example, the target is poorly observed or surprise is required.
        Zeroing according to benchmarks is an indirect method of shooting and, like any indirect method, it is inferior to the direct one, that is, shooting directly on the target.
        In our case, in the case of shooting along the reference island, the transfer of fire to the Varyag will lead to an additional error associated with the inaccuracy of determining the distance to the target.
        That is, to shoot at the benchmark is pointless if the target is observable. Of course, they didn’t shoot direct fire, it’s just ridiculous, but to shoot them when the Varangian appears is not for a clearly visible purpose, but for a benchmark, it’s also ridiculous of them.
        Theoretically, the Japanese could shoot on the island before the appearance of the Varangian, but it is known that they did not. In addition, this would also be stupid according to the disposition by order of Uriu, which you brought earlier, they should not have fought from the parking places, so shooting from this place was pointless.
        Shooting is carried out not in absolute geographical coordinates, but relative to the shooter, because the known island coordinates were not needed for shooting (this is now with the JP es data for shooting is calculated by the coordinates of the gun and the target. And then it was possible to determine only the bearing and range, which the island changed, by the way, since the Japanese had a move — that is, for a moving ship, the difference is small between the moving target and the stationary island — they change for both distances and bearing). It was also impossible to determine the exact position of the Varyag relative to the island, all the same, it would be necessary to first determine the bearing on it and the range, and only then calculate its position relative to the island, and do it taking into account its speed - why, if you could shoot directly at the target, without unnecessary range errors and bearing on the target?
        An ideal case for shooting at sea of ​​that time was the situation when the bearing and range on the target did not change. If you look at the source recommended by you, you will see that it is just so recommended to choose a dummy frame. Moreover, as I wrote earlier, it was precisely this position that Asama tried to take — ahead of the Varangian, in a parallel course with an advance and a minimum speed difference.
        But the Varangian walked at a slower speed than expected on Asam, and then turned around altogether.
        Based on the foregoing, it was unreasonable for the Japanese to shoot at rapport island. In addition, even now the range of the rapper to the target should not exceed a kilometer or two, and if they had not had time to shoot and the Varyag went further?
        The reason why the Varyag was shot better than the others, in my opinion, was not the rapper islands, but because the Varyag was walking without changing course at a relatively low speed.
        In those days there were no automatic calculators of data for firing, therefore, having received the range and bearing on the target, the artillery officer prepared the data for firing from the tables, made corrections according to the results of the bursts on the tables, and then the ship fired until the target was hit (which was statistical in nature by the way). If the target changed speed and course, the order was repeated. In the open ocean, it was much easier to maneuver so as to reduce enemy firing accuracy
        No, it should not :))) Moreover - this could not be in principle :)))

        quite follows from the statement of the Japanese. The speed data I took into account yours, taking into account the current, I'm not talking about 20 knots of the course.
        All your "remark" will eventually boil down to "Runev panicked and made an unacceptable maneuver that even a cabin boy would not have done",

        Why would he panic, this, in fact, according to your conviction, he was shell-shocked :)
        I think that Rudnev’s turn is logical and true that it was not executed very well — this is a fight, it can happen.
        Rudnev saw that the Japanese were shooting, and they were shooting very accurately, as well as the fact that there were many of them, and he began to take the ship out of shelling. If he turned to the left, then the end would have been to him, Asam could have fired at him, for example, in conditions excellent for himself, and to the right he pressed against the island from the Japanese. Why did he start to leave the battle - a separate issue, in my opinion he had good reasons for this, if I can choose the time in the near future, I will try to write that you criticized smile I owe you a lot in this matter feel
      2. 0
        8 November 2018 03: 00
        and further. the shooting method used at that time “by observing the signs of falling” was equally suitable both for shooting on the benchmark and on the target.
        The Japanese did not need to use something else, taking into account the limited capabilities of the Varangian to maneuver and change speed, so I think that they did not need to do a sighting on the benchmark.
        А
        Hard to believe, to be honest

        honestly, just a figure of speech.
        hi
        1. 0
          8 November 2018 13: 15
          I saw, read, try to answer in the evening hi
        2. +1
          9 November 2018 13: 02
          So, well, let's begin, blessing :)))
          Quote: Avior
          On warships, unlike elevators, flour mills and even holds of a cargo ship, there is not much empty space, so the amount of flour that can participate in the explosion is very small.

          And there is a lot of it and it is not necessary. Here, admire http://portall.zp.ua/video/vzryv-na-melnice-cut/id-DWXaotVSYm0.html
          Quote: Avior
          But this probability is not high either, since in a very limited room the concentration will almost certainly exceed the required one, and taking into account imperfect mixing, talking about such a danger is not serious

          300 of those killed and wounded in Benin from an explosion of flour in the fresh air strongly disagree with you. But in open space, concentration is even further from ideal.
          Quote: Avior
          Zeroing according to benchmarks is an indirect method of shooting and, like any indirect method, it is inferior to the direct one, that is, shooting directly on the target.

          Sergei:)))))))
          Look what you do. You take instructions and read it, that’s right :))) But you read the instructions for DRY artillery :) At the same time, you also read the rules for firing at a stationary target. Respectively, in this particular case The benchmark is needed only for one purpose - determining amendments (wind, humidity and other meteorology).
          But if, for example, you shoot a stationary battery at a moving enemy convoy, then you mark benchmarks along its route (without preliminary zeroing) and shoot at it as these benchmarks are reached, taking into account the speed of the column and the time of flight of the projectile (page 52 "Manual on fire control of ground artillery "1964).
          But the most important thing is not even that. You miss the most key concept of ground artillery - topogeodesic reference firing positions. That is, generally speaking, the shooting is done like this - the position of the gun / battery is determined on the ground, and then, in order to hit the target, the topographic and geodetic reference of its darling is carried out :))))
          Well, here is this binding, that for the purpose, for our art, it is carried out precisely with the help of certain points, the location of which is known. That is, if I see a hill directly to the north, and place my cannon 500 m from its top (which is measurable), then I, finding the visible hill on the map, can determine my position on the map. And the same is for the purpose. And then, having measured the distance on the map from me to the target, I EXACTLY know the distance. That is, the distance to the target doesn’t bother me anymore, I know him, but I can miss it anyway And for this I need a shooting target - I’m not trying to guess the necessary corrections, but choosing them experimentally - I shoot in the same direction where I will shoot later to the target on the benchmark, the distance to which is known. I look at the deviation and determine the amendments with which I will hit the benchmark accurately. And, when a real target appears, I do not shoot at it, but already knowing the distance to it, I introduce the corrections previously determined by the benchmark.
          1. +1
            9 November 2018 13: 02
            That is, when shooting from a fixed gun at a stationary target, I use frames (and a frame is an object whose distance to it is known) THREE:
            1) For topogeodesic binding of my gun
            2) For geodesic target binding
            3) To determine the correction when shooting at a target, if I want to hit it as quickly as possible, without shooting.
            You are considering a special (third) case of using a rapper, and even that seems to be doing it wrong :)))))
            Quote: Avior
            That is, to shoot at the benchmark is pointless if the target is observable.

            This is not true. Even in your interpretation, a benchmark is not an ersatz aiming, but a way to determine the correction BEFORE the target and, possibly, instead.
            Quote: Avior
            Of course, they didn’t shoot direct fire, it’s just ridiculous, but to shoot them when the Varangian appears is not for a clearly visible purpose, but for a benchmark, it’s also ridiculous

            Not right, since such a sighting allows you to evaluate the correction for meteorology. But in this case, using the terminology of land art, we are not talking about a selection of amendments, but about a topographic and geodetic reference, if you know what I mean :)))
            That is, Iodolmi is not a means of sampling the amendment (although it could have been used this way) but a means of clarifying the distances between Asama and Varyag. Translating into the language of land art, this is a topographic and geodetic reference :)))
            Quote: Avior
            But the Varangian walked at a slower speed than expected on Asam, and then turned around altogether.

            The Japanese shot before a U-turn when the Varangian did not reach about a mile to the Yodolmi beam
            Quote: Avior
            In addition, even now the range of the rapper to the target should not exceed a kilometer or two, and if they had not had time to shoot and the Varyag went further?

            And you again contrast not what is needed :))))
            Your logic is this: shooting directly at the target is better and why get distracted by the benchmark? And you look at it from the other side - for 10 minutes we shoot at the target in the best way - but there is no result :)))
            By the way, in fact, the amendment obtained when shooting at the benchmark would have worked perfectly throughout the battle, but we are not talking about that now. And the fact that the presence of Yodolmi made it possible to carry out a "topogeodetic binding" - and you can argue as much as you like that this is more difficult than a simple measurement of the distance with a rangefinder to the Varyag (in fact, no), but the point is that the measurements did not work - Asama did not hit so it was time to try something else.
            Quote: Avior
            The reason why the Varyag was shot better than the others, in my opinion, is not the rapper islands, but because the Varyag was walking without changing course at a relatively low speed

            Yes. But he did it both when he went to the Yodolmi, and when he went from the Yodolmi, but for some reason they hit him on the Yodolmi ONLY :))))
            Quote: Avior
            quite follows from the statement of the Japanese.

            Colleague, look at the map. If it doesn’t work out, I’ll draw a diagram for you later, but so far I have already run out of time for commenting :))))
            Quote: Avior
            Rudnev saw that the Japanese were shooting, and they were shooting very accurately, as well as the fact that there were many of them, and he began to take the ship out of shelling. If he turned to the left, then the end would have been to him; there, Asam could shell him

            Bliiin, well, Sergey :)))) Take a look at the battle plan - turning to the right, Rudnev CLOSED to Asama, and if he turned to the left - he would move away from her, while taking into account Asama’s course behind the island he would hide approximately at the same time in wallpaper cases
  12. +1
    6 November 2018 01: 32
    And if the cruiser really gave 18-20 knots, it is obvious that the gunboat was far behind - with a difference in speed of 4,5-6,5 knots in 20 minutes, the lag would be 1,5-2,17 miles.

    Dear Andrew,
    if we compare the logbook of the cruiser "Varyag" and the memories of one of the officers of the "Koreyets", then there is a fifteen-minute difference in the anchoring of the two ships, but only in favor of the gunboat :-)
    "Varyag" anchored at 13:15

    "Korean" anchored at 13:00

    It turns out that "Varyag" could not leave with a 20-knot move, otherwise he, and not "Koreets", would have dropped the anchor first
    By the way, the passage contains information about the speed of our ships and the firing range of the Koreyets' guns, which might seem interesting.
    1. 0
      6 November 2018 02: 08
      or just a Korean in relation to the Varangian at the beginning of his return was far from being in the position that is shown in the diagram in the article and the heroic passage you cited about protecting the Varangian from enemies.
      Or the Korean commander didn’t very punctually record time with great approximations and fantasies.
      Notice that in the above passage the Korean was following the Varangian, covering him, but had he come earlier by as much as 15 minutes?
  13. 0
    6 November 2018 11: 04
    "Fleet commanders" would have Port Arthur, as much determination and courage as the Varyag crew had.
    It is infinitely a pity that Stepan Osipovich died untimely with the Petropavlovsk.
    1. -1
      7 November 2018 08: 13
      The crews of 1 TOE ships had no less courage ..
      Only the leader receives the task and begins to fulfill it and cannot ..
      "Farting steam" will not improve shooting.
  14. +2
    6 November 2018 12: 01
    Perhaps the sharply increased accuracy of the Japanese artillery is due to the fact that the "Varangian" approached Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi), whose position in space was well known - as a result of this, Japanese rangefinders and artillerymen received a magnificent landmark.


    There is no doubt even - it’s not a difficult artillery task, when the target’s speed relative to a fixed reference point is easier to calculate and a clear reference point in distance in the form of a lighthouse on the island.
    Definitely the task for Japanese rangefinders was greatly simplified - it became possible to more accurately take the distance, determine the speed and course angle of the target.
    1. -2
      7 November 2018 05: 14
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Perhaps the sharply increased accuracy of the Japanese artillery is due to the fact that the "Varangian" approached Fr. Phalmido (Yodolmi), whose position in space was well known - as a result of this, Japanese rangefinders and artillerymen received a magnificent landmark.


      There is no doubt even - it’s not a difficult artillery task, when the target’s speed relative to a fixed reference point is easier to calculate and a clear reference point in distance in the form of a lighthouse on the island.
      Definitely the task for Japanese rangefinders was greatly simplified - it became possible to more accurately take the distance, determine the speed and course angle of the target.

      You are mistaken, more than completely. Without the availability of calculators, do meaningless interrogations, superfluous work that no one needs.
      1. +1
        7 November 2018 07: 36
        You just don’t know how to shoot.
        Computers are not needed here ... The height of the object is measured (with a goniometer, at least a sextant) and a value is selected from the table .. One measures - the second selects and screams the distance.
        A few seconds and data on the shields of each gun of the Japanese ship.

        When the Varangian approached the exit from the narrowness (equal to the landmark) - his fate was decided. They waited for him and met with concentrated fire ... A classic of artillery! The Varangian could not go elsewhere. As at the training ground and shot.
        At the exact distance, there was a "cover", the rear sight was not needed here .. which is why they began to hit one after another ..
        1. -1
          7 November 2018 16: 19
          Quote: Shturman_50
          You just don’t know how to shoot.
          Computers are not needed here ... The height of the object is measured (with a goniometer, at least a sextant) and a value is selected from the table .. One measures - the second selects and screams the distance.
          A few seconds and data on the shields of each gun of the Japanese ship.

          When the Varangian approached the exit from the narrowness (equal to the landmark) - his fate was decided. They waited for him and met with concentrated fire ... A classic of artillery! The Varangian could not go elsewhere. As at the training ground and shot.
          At the exact distance, there was a "cover", the rear sight was not needed here .. which is why they began to hit one after another ..

          You write complete nonsense. It is much easier to use a horizontal rangefinder to measure the distance directly to the target.
          Along with what? With an island that is a kilometer from the target? In doing so, you move, the target moves, pay attention to the island, a waste of time if the target is visible in the sight.
          Simply, after Iodolmi traverse passed, the distance to the target was reduced, there was no need to take pre-emption (due to the low speed of the Russians), it was enough to sight the target in sight, it only remained to check the distance measured by the range finder with the aim and the hits were guaranteed.
          1. +1
            7 November 2018 16: 43
            Quote: Jura 27
            You write complete nonsense.

            No, Yura - complete nonsense - this is your prerogative.
            Quote: Jura 27
            It is much easier to use a horizontal rangefinder to measure the distance directly to the target.

            Yeah, it's easier. Only "simpler" does not mean "better" because the Japanese measured the distance to the "Varyag" - but did not hit it. And the benchmark "in the face" of Yodolmi just helps to understand why hits are not achieved.
            1. +1
              7 November 2018 17: 09
              [/ quote] Yeah, it's easier. Only "simpler" does not mean "better" because the Japanese measured the distance to the "Varyag" - but did not hit it. And the benchmark "in the face" of Yodolmi just helps to understand why hits are not achieved. [Quote]

              Do you offer them to measure the distance even to the island? So that life does not seem honey?
              Or just to the island, not paying attention to the "Varyag"?
              1. 0
                7 November 2018 17: 58
                Quote: Jura 27
                Do you offer them to measure the distance even to the island? So that life does not seem honey?

                Jura, read what I wrote about rappers below. And to the island - yes, it's easy, because it stands still and its height is known - Barr and strode are not needed to determine the distance to it, for this Fisk is more than enough. Moreover - when Asama reached his stable 15 nodes, the VIR to Yodolmi became stable, so the distance was known at any time
                1. 0
                  8 November 2018 10: 13
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Do you offer them to measure the distance even to the island? So that life does not seem honey?

                  Jura, read what I wrote about rappers below. And to the island - yes, it's easy, because it stands still and its height is known - Barr and strode are not needed to determine the distance to it, for this Fisk is more than enough. Moreover - when Asama reached his stable 15 nodes, the VIR to Yodolmi became stable, so the distance was known at any time

                  I read it - complete crap.
                  Are you going to shoot at the island or at the enemy, which is a kilometer from the island? If to the island, then I calmly went to Arthur on the Varyag. laughing
  15. -1
    6 November 2018 22: 06
    I already wrote Rudnev had to sink the ships on the fairway !!!! They would disrupt the unloading of the Japanese! But Rudnev was a peacetime commander! He could not decide on such an order !!!!
    1. -1
      7 November 2018 07: 25
      The Japanese have already landed troops ... in Chemulpo.
      The ship's commander is guided by the requirements of the Charter and the governing documents, as well as orders and orders of higher commanders and commanders.
      He had an order (written) - not to impede the landing of Japanese troops in Chemulpo.
      Amateur action is punishable by a tribunal. If the higher command had to change the tasks, then it MUST have been to set such tasks - to send the proper order.
      But it could not bring a message about the war .. Although it already knew something.
      Toka did not think that the Japanese would control the telegraph.
      In 1941, too, the telephone wires were cut ... and radio communication was not possible .. to notify.
      1. -2
        7 November 2018 07: 50
        I wrote about this navigator about this, Rudnev stupidly acted according to the charter! But I could not think with my own head! The same Kuropatkin also acted according to the charter, and what happened?
        1. +1
          7 November 2018 08: 35
          Quote: burigaz2010
          But I could not think with my own head!

          Mikhail, Rudnev, unlike you, knew how to use his head.
          1. 0
            7 November 2018 08: 48
            Andrey, I didn’t insult you! And about Rudnev, to go out to fight against Asama and drag the Korean after him, did you think he thought with his own head?
        2. 0
          8 November 2018 02: 48
          according to the charter, but not stupid.
          And how was he supposed to act? drown the Korean, and the Japanese, maybe they just took a dumb lol and wouldn’t shoot? Or were there few of them? or were not going to pursue and in general, shot badly?
          Rudnev did not know much of everything from what we know.
    2. +2
      7 November 2018 08: 02
      Quote: burigaz2010
      I already wrote

      it would be better to read. At least something
      Quote: burigaz2010
      it was necessary to flood the ships on the fairway !!!! They would disrupt the unloading of the Japanese!

      Given that at the time of the battle, the Japanese had long been unloaded - an incredibly interesting recipe. And given the fact that at the time when the Japanese transports were unloading, there was no war yet, and given the fact that the Russian Empire (at the level of the Emperor) actually considered it possible to land a Japanese landing in Chemulpo, deciding not to intervene -just archinteresting :)))))
      But the funny thing is that the landing could not be disrupted even after flooding both ships on the fairway - there in the narrowest place the width is not less than a kilometer :)))))
      Quote: burigaz2010
      But Rudnev was a peacetime commander! He could not decide on such an order !!!!

      Yes, yes, I know that even after I wrote more than 20 articles on this topic, where I laid out the whole delirium of this statement in detail, there will be people who, without knowing anything on the topic, will continue to yell once learned, like cockatoo parrots. Thank you for reminding me of this, but right, it wasn’t worth it.
      1. -1
        7 November 2018 08: 12
        Hello hello. Chemulpo has a very narrow channel, this time, secondly, do you think that Rudnev stupidly giving both his ships to the Japanese did everything right?
        1. +1
          7 November 2018 08: 27
          Quote: burigaz2010
          Chemulpo has a very narrow channel, this time

          The width of which in the narrowest section is a kilometer. These are two. By the way, a kilometer is VERY narrow for the sea.
          Quote: burigaz2010
          secondly, do you think that Rudnev stupidly giving both of his ships to the Japanese did everything right?

          What I think you can read in my articles. Where I wrote in detail why Rudnev could not and did not have the slightest right to behave somehow differently, not in the way he actually acted before the battle.
          1. -1
            7 November 2018 08: 35
            Well, yes, two ships if they are placed across the fairway will not be an obstacle? But Rudnev had to act on the situation !!
            1. +3
              7 November 2018 09: 23
              Quote: burigaz2010
              Andrey, I didn’t insult you!

              Yes. You insult Rudnev, who cannot answer you. We will assume I am for him :)
              Quote: burigaz2010
              Well, yes, two ships if they are placed across the fairway will not be an obstacle?

              They will, but not too serious - the transports will pass.
              Quote: burigaz2010
              But Rudnev had to act on the situation !!

              And what do you think is "situational action"?
              That is, you propose to sink both ships BEFORE the war begins, BEFORE the Japanese violate Korea’s neutrality, contrary to the order received, in an attempt to prevent free navigation in the neutral port, which is a gross violation of international law in relation to the British, Italians, Americans and French, and even , in fact, completely pointless, since the landing does not matter? Even if you exert yourself very hard, give birth to a magic wand and stretch the Varangian in length, blocking the fairway with them, then who prevents the Japanese from landing troops in the asanman bay near Chemulpo, as they had originally planned? The fact that it is more convenient to land in Chemulpo does not make landing impossible when Chemulpo is blocked.

              So, maybe still explain what you want from Rudnev? :)))))
            2. -1
              7 November 2018 13: 42
              Andrew see my comment below!
    3. 0
      8 November 2018 13: 56
      Well .... To flood the ship before the war ... This is already in excess
  16. +3
    7 November 2018 07: 56
    So, rapper. What is it and what does it eat with.
    In fact, everything is not even simple, but very simple. The benchmark is a well-observed object on the ground, the distance to which is reliably known. If there is no such object, then you can create a fictitious benchmark, but we are not interested, because in our example the benchmark is completely non-fictitious - this is the island of Iodolmi.
    First, in what conditions did Asama shoot? In difficult enough for its time. Fire was opened at a distance of 7 000 m, hits were reached at 6 800 m - these are 37,8-36,7 cables. Even if we assume that Polutov was mistaken, and there are yards, not meters - it’s all the same from 33,6 cables and higher. These are quite serious distances, not direct aiming, here you already have to make corrections according to the shooting data taking into account many parameters. Whoever doubts this, let us recall the simple fact that the far from the worst Asama artillerymen in the world could not shoot at the Varangian for 15 minutes.
    Well, Yura27 cannot understand this. "There is a palm tree, there is a tank next to a palm tree, why aim at a palm tree is it possible to aim at a tank?" he asks. If the distance is such that the gun can shoot in direct fire, then, of course, you need to aim and shoot at the tank. But if the distance is greater, and the determination of the range is required, then any tanker-artilleryman will thank God for the foolish enemy who crawled out under the benchmark, because knowing the exact distance to the palm tree it is easy to determine it for the enemy's tank. But without a benchmark, it is much more difficult to determine the distance to an enemy tank. Simply because in some cases it is much more difficult to determine the distance from our tank to the enemy's tank than to determine the distance from the enemy tank to the reference point. That is why the battery, having taken up positions, plans for itself benchmarks in order to detect the enemy, not to puzzle "what is the distance to him?", But to try to determine it relative to the nearest benchmark. But in order to understand this, you have to get off the palm tree yourself, which, alas, Yura27 is not going to do.
    But in general, I must say thanks to Yura 27 - no one amused me like that for a long time. In general, you have to contrive - with aplomb, with "wiping your feet on the opponent's body", Yura, by his example with a church and a tank, tells the CLASSICAL SITUATION OF USING a REPER and, naively blinking his eyes, asks: "And why is there still a benchmark?" :)) )))))
    But back to Asama. Why was there a benchmark needed?
    So, the Japanese cruiser makes a volley. Misses. Why? Actually there are 2 basic answer options
    1) The distance to the Russian cruiser is incorrectly determined
    2) The distance is correct, but the scope is incorrect
    Ironically, it is impossible to establish empirically who was wrong. That is why the chief chiefs of Russian ships often "went to the people" that is, to the batteries - the distance seems to be given correctly, and the shots give a flight or undershoot, so you have to personally watch the sight to figure out who got it wrong)
    So, the presence of a rapper in the form of an island allows the glavart to navigate with respect to the distance to the enemy cruiser. Just by tracking the distance between Asama and the island (this is easy and she, the distance is accurate) and observing the distance between the Varangian and the island with artillery binoculars. The method is imperfect but noticeably better than nothing.
    And the presence of a reference point (the distance to which we know at every moment of time) gives us the opportunity to compare the bursts of falling shells not only relative to the moving target, but also relative to the "standing" island :)) That is, if the range finder reports "distance 35 cables", and the gunner shoots at 30 cables, then, having a reference point like Yodolmi, you can detect an error much faster than without a reference point.
    That is, in fact, the whole science :))) I could, of course, tell a lot more about how the determination of VIR is facilitated in the presence of a benchmark, and why the presence of an island greatly simplifies the determination of the "course-speed" parameters of a target located next to it, but...
    1. -1
      7 November 2018 08: 14
      Meet me at Tsushima!
      1. 0
        7 November 2018 08: 31
        Quote: burigaz2010
        Meet me at Tsushima!

        Unlikely
    2. -1
      7 November 2018 17: 58
      A fine example of the fact that the author absolutely does not understand what he is writing about and that directly proves the opposite to what is desired.
      1. Both the island and the target ("Varyag"), in that case, perfectly observed objects.
      2. The distance to the island (rapper) is also not exactly known, as well as to the cruiser. I hope Andrey will be able to understand why.
      This could be finished, because and the hedgehog understands that it is easier to measure the distance and shoot directly at the target. But I’ll sort out Andrein’s nonsense yet.
      3. "Varyag" did not climb out either under the benchmark or on the benchmark, the island was at a considerable distance from the target, so paying attention to the island is a waste of time.
      4. How magically is it easier to determine the distance from the "enemy tank to the reference point" than to directly determine the distance from the shooter to the target? Indeed, even if there is a rangefinder with a device on the island (benchmark) (which, of course, was not in that battle), it is necessary to carry out complex additional calculations, absolutely meaningless when directly measuring the distance to the target.
      5. Andrey elementarily confused a stationary stationary battery with a moving cruiser ("Asama"). Well, and then a passage about a palm tree, but only in relation to the vehicle. With a stationary battery, it really would be a classic situation, but there is a very small problem, "Asama" was in motion and at a decent speed.
      6. There is a reasonable suspicion that it is only among the Russians, the chief leaders ran to check the sight. The Japanese (judging by the results of their shooting) simply measured the distances with a verified rangefinder, serviced by a qualified specialist (in contrast to some of them). Therefore, the Yapovskie glavarts did not run anywhere, but made corrections according to the signs of falling. And when it became clear that the Varyag was moving not at 20 knots, but at 10, everything fell into place - the hits rained down (reducing the distance to a comfortable one, of course, also played a positive role).
      7. The presence of a rapper, in the form of an island, does not allow the glavart to be oriented, because if the distance is incorrect (lying range finder or range finder), then nothing will come of it, but if everything is okay with determining the distance, then it’s easier and more reliable to measure immediately to the target.
      8. The range finder is much more accurate than artbinocles.
      9. It is impossible to detect a mistake faster due to the presence of the island, see paragraph 7.
      10. You don’t need to tell anything else, everything is clear with you.
      1. 0
        8 November 2018 13: 01
        First error
        Quote: Jura 27
        The distance to the island (rapper) is also not exactly known, as well as to the cruiser. I hope Andrey will be able to understand why.

        The distance to the benchmark is well known, it is measured instrumentally (this is elementary because the island is stationary and its height is precisely known) and then, if the magnitude of the change in distance is constant or very close to that, as it was, then in the future this distance at any time defined and completely elementary.
        That is, if at some point in time we know that the island was 3 miles, and that this distance increases, say, by 2 cable per minute, then we will easily know the distance to the island at any time.
        Quote: Jura 27
        Varyag "did not get out either under the benchmark or on the benchmark, the island was at a considerable distance from the target, so paying attention to the island is a waste of time.

        Considering that the width of the fairway was about a mile from Iodolmi, and that the Varangian did not rub against the opposite side of it, the remark is completely absurd.
        Quote: Jura 27
        How magically is it easier to determine the distance from the "enemy tank to the reference point" than to directly determine the distance from the shooter to the target?

        You take an artbinocle, and, knowing the size of the "notches" for a given distance (to the benchmark), you count :))))) Yura, it's elementary, you just need to know the count and multiplication.
        Quote: Jura 27
        Indeed, even if there is a range finder with an instrument on the island (benchmark) (which, of course, was not in that battle), it is necessary to carry out complex additional calculations

        Oh, mine gott :)))). What else is the range finder on the island? :)))
        Quote: Jura 27
        With a stationary battery, there really would be a classic situation.

        That is, Yura finally realized what kind of game he froze.
        Quote: Jura 27
        but there is an ochchchchen little problem, "Asama" was in motion and at a decent speed.

        But it continues to freeze new ones. Asama's speed in this case does not play any role, but only the magnitude of the change in distance (VIR) and bearing (VIP) plays
        Quote: Jura 27
        The presence of a rapper, in the form of an island, does not allow the glavart to be oriented, because if the distance is incorrect (lying range finder or range finder), then nothing will come of it, but if everything is okay with determining the distance, then it’s easier and more reliable to measure immediately to the target.

        Yura, cut off elementary truth on your nose - the distance to the rapper is KNOWABLE. To Varyag - no.
        Quote: Jura 27
        No need to tell anything else

        It's right. You don’t understand anything anyway, and even if you understand, you will never confess :)))
        1. 0
          8 November 2018 16: 44
          So you are going to fight with the island? laughing Then the claims are removed. fellow
          If, nevertheless, with "Varyag", then:
          1. You determined the distance to the rapper, but then it blows you with the current, the ship picks up speed and in a minute you will not know the distance to the island with sufficient accuracy even if you do not measure it again, and you would need to know the distance to the target, but this so, by the way. bully Those. on a slide rule you are immersed in calculating the distance to the island, and "Varyag", at this time, makes you an "adyu" pen. tongue
          2. Well, divide the mile by two - you get almost a kilometer, or you don’t know how many kilometers there are miles? Then learn the materiel.
          3. Yeah, and with what accuracy can you determine the distance from the benchmark to the target using the artillery glass? Remind you of the accuracy of the then rangefinder at a distance of 25 kbt? And most importantly, even if you measure the distance to the target from the reference island (and not from the Asam), with the most accurate laser rangefinder (and not the artillery lens from Asam), then you will not be able to calculate the distance from Asam to the same target. Geometry, 7th grade. Those. all your reasoning that knowing the distance to the benchmark will help you calculate the distance to the target - fly into tar-tar-ry.
          4. Game freeze exclusively you, because You have corrupted the stationary battery and the moving cruiser.
          5. Andryusha, the distance to the island is known with the same degree of certainty as to the Varyag, the rangefinder is the same. Only here the distance to the island-benchmark does not give you anything, and the distance to the target allows you to shoot with the correct sight right away, without any of your useless calculations. Try to finally realize this and not write any more bullshit.
          6. Your "scientific" discoveries, I really do not understand, and even more, I frankly scoff at them.
          1. +2
            9 November 2018 13: 12
            Quote: Jura 27
            I really don't understand your "scientific" discoveries, and even more than that, I frankly scoff at them.

            No question, laugh on. If you are not able to understand who in this case looks stupid - then this is your problem.
            And I ... well, I will not even advise you to read my answer to Sergey regarding benchmarks. You are not crazy. And I inform you that in the future I will cease to conduct all kinds of discussions with you and convince you of something, but I will act like a Passer-by. If some of your wonderful discoveries seem interesting to me (that is, false, but capable of misleading those reading your comments), then I will give a refutation. In the general case, it will be like this - you write your objections in a comment, I write - such and such statements of Yura-27 are false, to whom I can explain. If anyone expresses a desire - I explain. But in any case, I will conduct a dialogue with the one who asks me, not with you. And with you, as with Passers-by, there’s nothing more to talk about.
            Orevoire! love
            1. -2
              9 November 2018 17: 00
              [/ quote]. And with you, as with Passers-by, there’s nothing more to talk about. [quote]

              Well, I wrote a long time ago that you disgracefully merged without explaining how you would close the triangle to calculate the distance to the target using the tools of that time. They tried to carry some nonsense, but on me, a heap of your stupidities does not make the slightest impression, except for laughter.
              I read here, once again, the sources that time(and not from the 30s-40s, to which you are incorrectly referring), and I haven’t seen anywhere from the Japanese or extracts from the Japanese either a word about firing naval artillery using benchmarks, even when firing from anchored ships. Although in the latter case, it would be possible to try to get by with the means for calculations of that time (log-linear). T.O. I conclude: shooting using rappers in the fleets of that time was not used (there were no trivial calculators). Perhaps it was used in land artillery, but this is not a fact, and there is no time to dig a side topic.
              Write or don’t write what you want, I don’t care. If you have something funny, I’ll write anyway, if I consider it necessary, and if even a couple of educated readers understand it, then it will be good, but the plus-minus people who have forgotten geometry for grade 7 will not understand this, then such is their unenviable fate.
              Hello, always yours .... bully
              1. 0
                9 November 2018 20: 47
                Quote: Jura 27
                Well, I wrote a long time ago that you disgracefully merged without explaining how you would close the triangle to calculate the distance to the target using the tools of that time.

                In fact, this is elementary and I have long given an explanation for this in the comments. If someone is interested and someone does not understand - ask :)))
                1. 0
                  10 November 2018 05: 26
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Well, I wrote a long time ago that you disgracefully merged without explaining how you would close the triangle to calculate the distance to the target using the tools of that time.

                  In fact, this is elementary and I have long given an explanation for this in the comments. If someone is interested and someone does not understand - ask :)))

                  Is this a passage about the mythical topographic location of the Japanese? Bullshit gelding, because your observer is not at a stationary point, and therefore you have 4 variables (two VIRs and a VIP each to the reference point and the target) Only a special calculator from the 30s can calculate such a triangle (with a certain error, of course, and a shooting check).
                  Therefore, at that time they didn’t even take it, but acted simply and reliably, sighted the target in optics and determined the height of the sight, based on the distance measured by the range finder.
  17. -1
    7 November 2018 08: 08
    What I want to add.
    There was such a grandfather of Occam, he wore everything with a razor, even under a pillow at night.
    How to catch the extra essence, so immediately with a razor in the throat and in the well - (c) not mine.
    Even at night, they say, he wakes up and looks who is sleeping with him .. is there anything superfluous and merciless (see above).

    Caught in the concentrated fire of the Japanese ships, Rudnev wanted to get out from under the shelling by turning to the right and raised a signal for the Korean .. Everything went smoothly.
    Only trying to get out of the fire as soon as possible - he began to turn ahead of time and went to the coastal bank.
    In shallow water, the Varangian lost control (the effect of shallow water), lost speed .. also a shallow cause.
    Then it began to unfold, regardless of the position of the rudder pen and pointer.
    The situation - required the transition to manual - which was done ..
    Just keep in mind that 4-8 people can’t deploy a cruiser in the tiller - it doesn’t obey the steering wheel because of the shallow water ..
    The decision was made - to keep the steering wheel straight, and to operate the machines .. And the shelling of the practically stopped cruiser continued .. And time flew away ...
    It only remained to turn around to go to Chemulpo - the adversary was approaching ... bastard.
    The Korean was not particularly needed by anyone; his number was the last.

    I want to say that manual control does not work above the average stroke - the strength of 8 men is not enough to create the necessary steering effort. The steering of the Varyag was weak ...
    And then - the wind became "fair" and the horses increased in the car .. when they said that we were returning to Chemulpo .. Che feel sorry for her car already.
    Further - by the time of return of the anchors. A battered cruiser, all the time, needs to return to the parking lot in order to anchor than the Korean ... He practically couldn’t control it ... He could have run into anyone.

    I see another misunderstanding - those who walk along the inland waterways, he does not understand the sailor.
    This is a different aquatic environment. If a sea ship touches the bottom or shore - this is a) an accident, b) an accident, c) a catastrophe, depending on the consequences and victims.
    For a river boat to land ashore is a common practice, and the stranded is not terrible with the consequences ..
    The fact is that sea and river vessels are built according to different rules and their designs are different. And the navigator is not needed there, since swimming there according to other principles is carried out ..
    1. 0
      7 November 2018 08: 26
      What vegetable did Rudnev take this trough at all? Well, what combat value did he have? But the speed of the Varyag he will greatly reduce he did not know?
      1. 0
        7 November 2018 14: 01
        Quote: burigaz2010
        What vegetable did Rudnev take this trough at all?

        You here https://topwar.ru/147390-krejser-varjag-boj-u-chemulpo-27-janvarja-1904-goda-ch-12-pervye-vystrely.html
    2. 0
      7 November 2018 08: 31
      Quote: Shturman_50
      Caught in the concentrated fire of the Japanese ships, Rudnev wanted to get out from under the shelling by turning to the right and raised a signal for the Korean .. Everything went smoothly.
      Only trying to get out of the fire as soon as possible - he began to turn ahead of time and went to the coastal bank.

      Yeah. The ship’s commander of rank 1 at low speed makes a U-turn, which will result in a loss of controllability of the ship due to a drop in speed below the enemy’s evolving view and next to Yodolmi’s stones. wassat laughing
      Navigator, this is nonsense. Well, they don’t make caperanges of children's mistakes, Rudnev, if he wanted to get out of the battle, it was just that he had to turn left and right :)))
      Quote: Shturman_50
      In shallow water, the Varangian lost control (the effect of shallow water), lost speed .. also a shallow cause.

      But these are just idle conjectures of a man who, even in general terms, did not watch the speed of the Varangian and the current in the area of ​​his turn.
      1. 0
        8 November 2018 07: 52
        Good morning, dear!
        Emotions must be handled with care. Nerve cells recover poorly ...
        In fact:
        - the speed of a displacement ship (KVVP, KPK, Redans, etc. are not considered), depends, in a serious way, on the depth under the keel. This is determined by hydrodynamics .. (section of physics).
        There are no restrictions, if N / T (T-draft, and H - depth) is greater than or equal to 3,0, then the vessel moves in a laminar flow without disturbances.
        When N / T is less, then the speed must be reduced, because the flow ceases to be laminar and turbulences arise, which begin to affect the vessel negatively.
        And if N / T is 2,0, this means that under the keel the margin is equal to draft, then the stroke must be reduced to half of full .. (average stroke).
        Earlier, I already noted that the car cannot back up from the full front, and the ship (ship) does not stop immediately, but only after a few cable, or even miles ...
        That is, the second factor restricting the movement at full speed in narrowness is obvious.
        The third factor is the possibility of loss of control due to failure of the steering. You can be aground or rocks without having time to work out the machine and / or not have time to switch to emergency steering.
        It has been worked out for centuries and is called good marine practice.
        When the ship goes into shallow water (N / T from 2,0 to 1,0 - already touching the bottom), the following phenomena are observed:
        The speed of the vessel slows down, since the propellers cannot “throw out” the necessary mass of water from under the hull (“sucks”). Shallow water circulation also slows down (up to 40% increase in time) and the vessel can begin to turn around on its own - and in any direction. Usually turns into a deeper place, since there is less hydrodynamic pressure, it can react to a ravine between two shallows. The steering wheel in such a situation is absolutely ineffective - consider that it is not. A connection with the ground can save - for example, the return of anchors. Touching a sandbank can also save from disaster - stop the uncontrolled movement of the mass of several thousand tons. That is, it is necessary to crawl already at the smallest stroke of 3-5 knots (taking into account the flow, because there is interaction with the soil, and therefore turbulence).
        For the Varangian - let's take a draft of 5,4 (for cleanliness) - 3 fathoms, although he sat deeper ...
        This means that the depth on the map is 9 fathoms freely, and 6 fathoms is the maximum permissible, and given the unevenness of the bottom and side shallows, the space for maneuvers narrows.
        Now we turn to the ebbs and flows and their currents. In Chemulpo full water (and much greater depths (2-3 fathoms) came at night. The current at that moment was about zero. And then it reached a maximum by low tide during the day .. By the way, Chioda took advantage of this when she left Chemulpo at night .. It’s safer, moreover, I suppose, (collided) a pair of Japanese destroyers could anchor near the fairway and turn on the searchlight at the signal (or time), and after passing Chioda, anchor and follow her back to the squadron.
        Navigation services on the ships (ships) of that time did not exist .. They did not carry out laying.
        The gunners were the main ones, they also stood watch ... the commander could send the navigator at his discretion to any place of the ship, with a lot or lag, etc. assistants.
        Navigation was carried out by the so-called “pilotage method”, which is well written by the lots: you need to rule to the top ..., then after traversing the cape (island) or there is a milestone, the buoy (typical for the Baltic) turn ... and follow, etc. Drawings of mountains, conspicuous rocks, etc. are given.
        Generations of navigators sketched the coast, I don’t know if they teach these navigational sketches now. There is some benefit to this.
        But with the Varangian it played a bad service ...
        Following the exit along the fairway with a course that could have been up to 3,5 knots on the map and which made an angle with the direction of movement of the cruiser from 30 to 40 degrees. as a result, the correction to the course was not less than 15 degrees. to the left. The numbers I try to take are minimal, in fact, there could be more.
        The moment of the end of the fairway is the passage of the traverse of the lighthouse about. Iodolmi. Here are just a traverse - a thing associated with the hull of the ship (perpendicular to the diametrical plane). And if you have a correction for drift with the current, then the beam of the ship will also be “turned” by this value.
        While the officer on duty together with the helmsman, is ruled on shots of different peaks and other landmarks, it is necessary to realize that this is difficult to do from the conning tower. But they didn’t come up with another then.
        As we recall, the current pulled to the right .. pressing to the right side of the fairway.
        A massive shelling began just at the passage of the lighthouse Iodolmi. Why - we understand.
        Landmark for the Japanese artillery, and we did not have such landmarks. They fired at a white light, like a pretty penny.
        Everyone in the conning tower understands that it is necessary to maneuver, but not yet, until the Yodolmi traverse is passed .. And here is the report of the officer in charge - we traverse the Yodolmi lighthouse. Rudnev (and he controlled) was waiting for this report - the beginning of the opportunity to maneuver. Well, at least the coordinate to the right, there was such a maneuver of evading artillery fire.
        The command to the officer in charge is turning right to the course such-and-such ... (when maneuvering the coordinate, the lapel is 90 degrees and back to the previous course).
        Well, since in fact the traverse had not yet been completed due to the cruiser turning to the angle of resistance to the drift of the current, then at a small distance from the landmark, an error of 10-15 degrees gave an error at the place (point) of the start of the turn. The turn began early, it was necessary to wait another minute ... under fire.
        And then a sequential chain of events - an exit in shallow water. 4–5 are sazhen, a passing current began to drag, adding speed in shallow water. The ship stopped obeying the helm ...
        Steering report - does not obey the steering wheel. The solution is to switch to emergency .. there is no time to look for damage. To send people to the steering wheel, to establish communication via telephone pipes, the time to put the steering wheel “directly” is all minutes ... start working with machines. The rudder pen pointer is also no longer considered working.
        It is clear that to anchor is suicide. The cruiser stopped (possibly touching a sandbank), lost speed and already here the cars, working in reverse, defused the situation. It was impossible to control from the tiller ... if only they kept the “steering wheel straight”.
        If anyone fell on the firing of 152-mm guns, he knows that you can lose your own hearing ... from your shots. Well, the breaks of the "Japanese" added. They lifted the cone on the knees - “keep the steering wheel straight” - for the tiller compartment (backup method) ...
        And then there were no options - only back to the port of Ch.
        Consulted with the old man Occam, like we can do without a razor ..
        Such a disposition, little ones ...
        1. 0
          8 November 2018 13: 13
          Quote: Shturman_50
          In fact

          What you have written does not apply to the essence. I know perfectly well that the speed of a ship depends on depth, but there is one simple and elementary fact that does not require knowledge of navigational wisdom, but just basic common sense
          Flow. Which gave the Varyag an order of 2,5 knots of speed relative to the coast, and which would have taken away from him as much if he went at the same speed to the Chemulpo raid. And physics, which is that on a U-turn, the ship loses speed.
          Considering that Varyag and Iodolmi went downstream with a total speed of approximately 12 knots, his own did not exceed 10 knots and a turn against the current, which would also push him to the island, OBVIOUSLY leads to the loss of government, without any wisdom with depth .
          Quote: Shturman_50
          And then a sequential chain of events - an exit in shallow water .. 4-5

          Existing only in your imagination, because Iodolmi does not have this, this shallow water. There the depths from 7 are sazhen and higher :)))) I’m saying, navigator, look at the map at least sometimes :)))))))
          The stones were there. You explain the difference between stones and shallow water? :))))
          Quote: Shturman_50
          Such a disposition, little ones ...
          1. +2
            9 November 2018 06: 16
            Marlezon Ballet, part 2 - the swans went (s) not mine!
            Let's start with the cards. In recent times, the Russian fleet had only aglitz cards .. for Korea, China, Japan, etc.
            Remember: "Rule Britain by the seas ..."
            Practically even now, in the ports of Asia and Africa, pilots are British, less often French (in the overseas territories of France).
            The English Admiralty, I think, has earned a huge pile of money by selling maps and lots, and there is a Guide to Port Entry on all decent ships ... English is obligatory for a navigator (naval officer) ..
            This is what I mean - and to the Chemulpo cards ...
            1. Depths on the map (during compilation) are plotted at a certain level of the level surface. Usually, in our time, this is indicated in the title of the map (!). There is no mention of this in English, but according to the old practice - from the average long-term level of the quadrature tide on the map section.
            2. In the sailing directions, which our Admiralty translated from English in 1901, it is written that quadrature tides are 36-37 feet, that is, 6 fathoms (!). There is something to think about at low tide ... And there were also springs .. but we are small ..
            3. In addition, the scale and scales for distance (latitude) and longitude (coordinates) are indicated in the map title, since they are different. Now the scales are on the edges of the maps. But we have 1904.
            4. Under the heading is the point (latitude and longitude), the "center of the map", from which it was built. (this topic is quite complicated for here ..).
            5. There, small letters are marked under the heading: s - sand (sand), m - mud (silt, mud), r - rock (rock). Here, where the Varyag “played tricks”, the soil m and s was marked (see above), and the depth there was definitely not 7 fathoms, but 3-4 fathoms less because of the ebb .. Therefore, the touch of the soil turned out to be “gentle ".
            6. Well, it is also written on the map that all this was “created” on the map by the officers of the HMS “Flying Fish” already in 1882-1884. with French corrections...
            7. Well, it is also said that the coastline is drawn in high water, and the heights in feet from the edge are in low water.
            8. An Englishman who worked as a pilot in Chemulpo (and Seoul) wrote a guide to entry and exit - (available in “Guide to Port Entry”, updated every few years).
            9. Already he complained that tidal currents carry and distort the relief of the bottom and depth. No one marks new shallows and banks on maps, since there are no such services.
            But if you think that the brave British have measured everything themselves, then you are mistaken. There was no need for that. Their main merit is that they put on a map and linked local schemes and maps into a single system ... In conjunction with magnetic meridians, etc. The British worked for a global empire over which the sun did not set. We measured and checked the fairways, put distinctive signs, etc. for important places (bases, bays, ports).
            And there were no other global mapping systems. So the staff doesn’t need to show me the number 7 on the map .. I know its reliability (10% not higher), since about 10 years have passed since the publication of the map, and since there was no fairway, no one was hanging around except for fishermen and smugglers ( sampans are too small to compare with the Varangian).
            He consulted with his grandfather Okkama, there were no razors, although they laughed.
            Here is such a disposition, little ones! And without fantasy ..
          2. 0
            9 November 2018 06: 24
            Physics is that the flow "does not push" anything and anywhere ...
            A mass of water moves under the influence of natural forces .. together with a ship, logs, boats, and nets, if they are not connected to the ground.
            But standing at anchor, yes - it unfolds .. on the sandbank, the landed one also gets an influence ..
            Therefore, the influence of the current is determined more easily than the influence of the wind ...
            1. +1
              9 November 2018 13: 27
              Quote: Shturman_50
              Physics is that the flow "does not push" anything and anywhere ...

              Navigator, you could have learned the basics of physics. Here, if you have not noticed, we have a ship, which is a source of energy that allows it to move in the right direction, and the current will either help or hinder it in this.
              Quote: Shturman_50
              Here, where Varyag "swammed", the soil m and s was marked (see above), and the depth there was definitely not 7 planted, but on 3-4 there was less fathom due to low tide ..


              Where the Varyag was deployed, the depth was 17-18 fathoms, and to the island, where the depth could really be from 7 or less, the cruiser approached already "crawling", backing up
              Quote: Shturman_50
              Here is such a disposition, little ones! And without fantasy ..
  18. 0
    11 November 2018 02: 32
    Something I'm completely confused about time .. Andrey, please, if you decide to adhere to the chronology, according to the Japanese time, then do this in all articles and do it, or indicate in brackets.
    In 13.00, the “Varangian” approaches the parking place, in 13.00-13.15 it gives an anchor.
    - what time is it ???
    In general, with great interest and pleasure I read your articles!
    1. 0
      11 November 2018 14: 48
      Quote: kdn79
      Something I'm completely confused about time .. Andrey, please, if you decide to adhere to the chronology, according to the Japanese time, then do this in all articles and do it, or indicate in brackets.

      In general, I tried so, but - yes, I gave a blunder, I'm sorry.
      Quote: kdn79
      In 13.00, the “Varangian” approaches the parking place, in 13.00-13.15 it gives an anchor.
      - what time is it ???

      In Russian
  19. 0
    11 November 2018 03: 59
    Dear Andrey, on another, but also respected site, in an article dedicated to the fight at Chemulpo, the following data are given:
    From the Varyag team, 22 people were killed directly in the battle, and two seriously wounded people died immediately after the battle ended. Seven people died aboard Pascal and Talbot, three more on the shore, in the Red Cross hospital. Thus, the crew of the "Varyag" lost 34 killed, including one officer.
    . But the author does not indicate the source of this data. What do you think about that?
    1. +1
      12 November 2018 02: 01
      Got a response from the author of that article:
      I don’t remember the sources for years now, I’ll just give the information that respected realswat shared on the Tsushima form
      In the logbook Varyag - 31 killed.
      In the Rudnev report, the head of the Ministry of the Sea has 31 killed.
      In the report of Rudnev to the Deputy, 34 were killed.
      Obviously, based on these data, it is not possible to accurately determine the death toll.
      It remains to understand the official data.
      In the Circular of the Main Naval Headquarters on February 16, 1904, No. 36, a List of the lower ranks of the 13th naval crew killed on the Varyag rank 1 cruiser is given. 32 surnames are indicated.
      In the Circular of the Main Naval Staff of March 21st day of 1904, No. 73, it is reported: "Circulars of the Main Naval Staff of the 16th and 19th February No. 36 and 39 show sailors Vasily Kholmykov and Alexander Kuznetsov among those killed on the Varyag. According to a later report, both are alive, and the relatives of Kholmykov and Kuznetsov, together with this, are informed of the error.
      Signed by: I. d. Chief of the Main Naval Staff, Retinue of HIS MAJESTY Rear-Admiral Rozhdestvensky and Clerk Przhibytek. "
      The 30 man remains.
      Next, the Circular of the Main Naval Headquarters
      March 21st day of 1904, No. 74.
      "In addition to those indicated in circulars No. 36 and 39, the sailor Gavriil Tikhonov Mironov (Samara province, Bugulma district, Epiphany volost, village Medvedevka, single) must be considered killed on the 1st rank cruiser" Varyag ".
      Instead of Andrei Kofimov shown in circular Z6-m, one should consider the commander of Andrei Trofimov (Vologda province. Ustyssol district of the Nomul volost of the village of Bor, single) and the commander of Dmitry Sharapov (Vologda province. Nikolsky district of the Bobrovsky-Zakharyevsky volost of the village of Selivanovo, single).
      Signed by: I. d. Chief of the Main Naval Staff, Retinue of HIS MAJESTY Rear-Admiral Rozhdestvensky and Clerk Przhibytek. "
      Total, 30 + 1 - 1 + 2 = 32 people.
      This was followed by the Circular of the Main Naval Headquarters of April 10th day of 1904, No. 95.
      "Circulars of the Main Naval Staff of February 16 and 19, No. 36 and 39, show among the killed a fireman of the 1st article, Andrei Yegorov Leontyev. According to a later report, he was alive.
      Signed by: I. d. Chief of the Main Naval Staff, Retinue of HIS MAJESTY Rear-Admiral Rozhdestvensky and Clerk Przhibytek. "
      The 31 man remains.
      And finally, the Circular of the Main Naval Headquarters
      September 7th day of 1904, No. 265.
      "From the information received at the present time it turned out that the lower ranks of the crew of the deceased cruiser" Varyag "- the commandor Grigory Trofimov Borkun (peasant of the Minsk province. ) died of wounds at the Japanese Red Cross Hospital in Chemulpo, the first on February 1th and the second on February 19th this year.
      Signed: For the Chief of the Main Naval Staff Rear-Admiral Virenius and Clerk Przhibytek. "
      Total 33 lower ranks. More information about the deceased lower ranks in the official data was not found.
      The final list of losses: Midshipman Nirod + 33 lower ranks.


      Well, everything seems to be convincing ... So what happens, after all, 34 dead, not 33?
      1. 0
        12 November 2018 17: 55
        Quote: kdn79
        Well, everything seems to be convincing ... So what happens, after all, 34 dead, not 33?

        It’s easy. And - I apologize for the late reply. In fact, I did not dig deep into the topic of the dead on the Varangian, and I can assume that the realswat data, as always, are exemplary.
  20. -1
    12 November 2018 07: 49
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: Shturman_50
    Physics is that the flow "does not push" anything and anywhere ...

    Navigator, you could have learned the basics of physics. Here, if you have not noticed, we have a ship, which is a source of energy that allows it to move in the right direction, and the current will either help or hinder it in this.
    Quote: Shturman_50
    Here, where Varyag "swammed", the soil m and s was marked (see above), and the depth there was definitely not 7 planted, but on 3-4 there was less fathom due to low tide ..


    Where the Varyag was deployed, the depth was 17-18 fathoms, and to the island, where the depth could really be from 7 or less, the cruiser approached already "crawling", backing up
    Quote: Shturman_50
    Here is such a disposition, little ones! And without fantasy ..



    About PHYSICS .. - This is the third part of the Marleson Ballet. Swans come back, come back ... In the 6th-7th grade, physics was given well before ...
    I admit, you have perplexed me.
    Sailing has been known since ancient times .. and ships (ships) moved without being sources of energy. Strange maxim.
    The simplest example:

    The wind at sea walks
    And the boat drives;
    He runs himself in the waves
    In swollen sails.

    What is the source of energy here? Masts with sails? Maybe the wind? .. well, the ship is not a source of energy here (there are barge haulers, slaves in galleys, steam locomotives pulling along canals).
    Strictly according to PHYSICS (section THERMODYNAMICS) - on the ship (Varyag) the source of energy was coal (not the ship), which, when burned, generated a working fluid in steam boilers - steam that entered the steam engine and converted thermal energy into mechanical energy (Carnot cycle). began to rotate dynamo-machines (turbines), shafts with screws and other devices, so that they could WORK, including moving the ship relative to WATER, because this is how the power plant works.
    That is - there is burning of coal - there is movement .. but there is no coal - sorry ... a bummer with movement.
    Further about physics in a simple way:
    - when the ship is launched, the turn of another section of physics (HYDROSTATICS) begins, according to the school law, the law of Archimedes ... Why doesn’t it sink, what can be loaded, poured and not drowned and overturned. This is also the head of the navigator. For example, the second mate is usually responsible for loading and unloading, fulfilling the requirements of stability, roll and trim, calculating the metacentric height, checking the draft with bow and stern, the strength of the hull and deck and tweendeck (by midship - and by cargo mark too), etc. R. This is a section of PHYSICS - MECHANICS - accounting of heeling and overturning (restoring) moments. You should have seen the ship's documentation in the cabin 2 assistants - would not go into this topic.
    - untied the ship from the pier and started moving - the section of physics began - HYDRODYNAMICS ...
    - the screws began to perform physical work to move the mass of water in accordance with the rotation of the screws, the rotation of the blades, etc. This is a branch of physics - MECHANICS - the dynamic movement of mass in the horizontal plane, taking into account the resistance of the environment - water, wind, waves and the influence of nearby berths, structures and soils.
    Here, after all, on HYDRODYNAMICS, how? If the depth is more than three precipitation, then the movement is considered LAMINAR, that is, in a steady stream without disturbances ...
    At the same time, the CURRENT - (that it is, that it is not) DOES NOT INFLUENCE on the vessel ... The vessel moves relative to the WATER, and the fact that this mass of water in large volume moves together with the vessel, so HYDRODYNAMICS (and physics) it’s on the drum ... Regarding water the ship moves as if there is NO current. And indeed it is. Well, how is speed taken into account? From antiquity - they threw chock from the nose and waited for it to come to the stern. The time relative to water was determined by time (section PHYSICS - MECHANICS - rectilinear uniform motion). Lags invented - mechanical, induction, hydrodynamic (hydraulic). If the car is stopped (the wind stopped, the sails are removed), then you can make sure that you will not see the currents ...
    In secret, I’ll say that there was a Dream sonar lag on the nuclear submarine - it measured speed relative to the bottom (!), It’s only contagious roads, it reveals the location of nuclear submarines and causes environmentalists questions. They removed it .. on the shelf.
    All that drop from the side will float on the side. Here is such PHYSICS in the sea, but not all of course .. (only az, beeches, lead, verb, good, there are further alphabetically).
    - if you didn’t work at sea, but only on the river - by boat or river tram, then of course you will feel the effect of the current (speed against the current and the stream), BUT ONLY along the coastal landmarks. Here, of course, one can say “helps” or “hinders”, only this is more a child’s reasoning, and not PHYSICS.
    When the ship moves along the coast, sees the exact landmarks, the navigator can determine its full speed taking into account the influence of the current (!) And even having roughly determined the direction and speed, it has the right to take it into account in the calculation (by decision, the captain will take the drift rate correction) ... For this, a vector triangle is built. We consider the place where the ship was, where it turned out, through the time interval and the place where it should be without the influence of the current.
    It is clear that this is the PHYSICS of uniform and rectilinear motion under the influence of two force vectors. (the excitement and wind in this case we do not take into account only for the sake of clarity of reasoning about PHYSICS (!).
    - Now consider where the water flows, that is, the current in our case. Of course, where there are no obstacles to the flow (!), Otherwise a dam will arise - on the river, stream, and at sea the flow velocity will simply increase, because it is HYDRODYNAMICS and when the passage section is narrowed, the flow velocity increases and the pressure in the flow changes. At the same time, the bulk goes along the most central deepest part, and offshore there is a decrease in speed and the FORMATION of SHARES FROM PORTABLE BEARS. In our case with the Varangian - this allows us to understand that after Fr. Iodolmi arose a large sandbank. There were no measurements there. And it was impossible to trust a card with the numbers 20 years ago. To about. Iodolmi flow was strictly perpendicular to the fairway .. demolished by 3 knots (0,5 cable per minute) to the right (there the Japanese already lay on the stones). If the Varyag’s speed is 7,5 knots, and the currents are 3 knots, then the Varyag had to take into account the correction for a flow of at least 22-25 degrees to the left and move with a constantly shifted rudder (!). Roughly speaking, if the path required a course of 190 degrees, then the compass is 25 degrees to the left (less) - about 165 degrees. From the conning tower - this is still that navigation.
    In this case, the exact traverse of the passage about. It is difficult to determine Yodolmi, under the fire of the Japanese (the junior navigator Midshipman Nirod has already died with rangefinders in his hand). I admit that one of the tasks was to determine the distances to coastal landmarks, and not just to the adversary.
    Another nuance is that if you move around a circle around a landmark, it will ETERNALLY be on your beam (a property of a circle and a tangent to it). Therefore, I believe that when passing about. Yodolmi Varyag had a navigation error due to a change in the direction and strength of the current vector and because of an error about the traverse of the island.
    The flow of the current, having received an obstacle on the right, in the form of an island and a shallow, began to move at the exit course, and then changed direction to the right, enveloping sediments west of Fr. Iodolmi and merged into the main stream, freely flowing in a deep place. The current vector ceased to drift to the left when exiting to the island of Yodolmi, and the ship was sailing with a constant drift to the right (holding the wheel to the left, how many degrees are unknown), the commander Varyag began to turn to the right (No. 1258, but because he was walking close to the island of Yodolmi , and turned out to be pressed against the shallow water. It was enough to put the steering wheel straight. The reason for the navigational error in estimating the traverse of the island, when moving taking into account the new current vector. Well, the Varyag was not ready to go under fire when driving from the conning tower - the running gear was broken, to the main compass - the end, and there’s nothing to compare the track in the conning tower in. In peacetime, they could also put lots and the accuracy of the main compass course is always higher.
    Returning to maps and locations:
    The passage describes the passage to the Chemulpo raid, and on the map 1258 this route is laid out with a thin dotted line, look interesting because the red line between the peaks on the map 1270 knocks down .. They do not quite move along the fairway and, by the way, turn left and right to the right on the beam, Iodolmi is available, so everything happened due to a navigation error.
    It’s enough to put the steering wheel directly on Varyag and everything would be as it should and go to the exit course. RIGHT NOT ALREADY NECESSARY. Well, in shallow water it is understandable (see above) because of turbulence disturbing forces arose, the ship ceased to obey the helm, began to turn around, like a rear-wheel drive car on muddy ground from rain ... I buried myself in silt. Everything else is already known ... And what could Rudnev tell the tsar-father about this PHYSICS?
    Such is the disposition, the little ones, with PHYSICS ..
    1. +1
      12 November 2018 18: 53
      Hmmm, navigator, I am "delighted" with your ability to pour from empty to empty, chattering your own mistakes.
      Quote: Shturman_50
      Sailing has been known since ancient times .. and ships (ships) moved without being sources of energy.

      Yeah, at first there was the earth, it was round and hot, and then it cooled down and the first microorganisms appeared ... Navigator, well, it's not funny, we Varyag are discussing what "ancient times" are there? Or have you confused the Varangians with the cruiser "Varyag"? :))))
      Quote: Shturman_50
      Strictly in PHYSICS (section THERMODYNAMICS) - on the ship (Varyag) the source of energy was coal (not the ship)

      Uh-huh. And by the term "ship", in fact, is meant not only the ship as such, but also the reserves on it, including coal. Considering that you have managed to declare that the current has no effect on the ship with a steam engine and coal reserves, your grief on the topic of my "ignorance" of physics looks especially amusing.
      Quote: Shturman_50
      In our case with the Varangian - this allows us to understand that after Fr. Iodolmi arose a large sandbank. There were no measurements there.

      Lies for salvation. When you were poked with your nose into the lotion, you did not find anything smarter than writing that it was outdated and incorrect. Moreover, in confirmation of your lies, you could only give considerations of the most general nature - with the same success it can be argued that no fairway existed, because it was covered with silt.
      A special cynicism is added to your lies by the fact that, in your 20 years, in this area, 7-11 silt fossils were deposited :))))) Such oceanographic nonsense ...
      In short, the navigator, I can’t call you who you really are, it is prohibited by the rules of the site, but I have not had to deal with this level of primitive lies for a long time. I don’t see what you can talk about further
      1. 0
        15 November 2018 08: 49
        Well, it reminds me of an immortal remake "-" I chased you for three days to say how indifferent you are to me ... ".
        You really DO NOT KNOW PHYSICS, but do not be discouraged, there are many of them on planet Earth! Some and Unified State Exams passed with high scores in physics.
        I’ll try to explain again, because other readers should understand the essence of the matter ...
        Part 1 of the lesson:
        - The causes of currents on Earth are the actions of the physical laws of nature ...
        For example:
        A) wind currents - under the influence of winds constantly blowing in one direction (monsoons, etc.);
        B) wind-driven currents - under the influence of powerful non-constant, aperiodic winds;
        C) tidal currents - under the influence of forces arising from the influence of attraction of celestial bodies;
        D) currents from changes in temperature and water density under the influence of various factors - desalination, lava eruption, heating from other sources (in shallow water in hot areas);
        D) the flow from the rotation of the Earth, since the water shell and the land (solid part) are not rigidly connected;
        E) currents caused by atmospheric pressure on the water surface - cyclones and typhoons with low pressure, and anticyclones with high pressure - in areas of hundreds of square kilometers. create significant efforts (forces driving a mass of water).
        This is not an exhaustive list of reasons. The diversity of the forces of nature does not depend on diploma and qualifications (and the exam too) ...
        Part 2 of the lesson:
        The ship (regardless of whether it is metal, wood, with and without coal, with nuclear power plants or gas turbines, etc.) cannot be influenced by the CURRENT, well, it is not noticeable and cannot be detected on board the ship.
        The fact is that the SAME FORCES act on the ship, THAT THE WATER MASS AROUND IT, AND under the influence of these forces, the ship as a mass (physical quantity) moves with the water at the same speed and in the same direction, without “feeling "No influence of the current .. I hope this is understandable ?! According to one of the laws of physics (bears the name of Sir Isaac Newton), the ship is in a state of equilibrium and can be removed from it by the action of additional force ...
        Part 3 of the lesson:
        What is our asset? A certain number of various forces of natural phenomena (there are centrifugal, centripetal, from lunar climaxes, winds, etc., etc.) But none of these forces acts selectively (acts on the ship, but not on water, acts on the log but to the water - no). For natural forces - this is one and the same material entity that has a physical parameter - MASS. If a similar object carries water and begins to fall down from Niagara Falls, then this object will fall with water at the same speed .. and with it will fall to the surface at the point of incidence .. The energy of this object will be the same as the energy of equal the mass of water the volume of water. Well, something like this.
        Part 4 of the lesson:
        The ship alone is understandable, the chock thrown into the water and hangs around the side.
        Well, let's start moving. To do this, it is necessary to bring the ship out of equilibrium and act (only on the ship) with a separate additional force. We (and PHYSICS) do not care what kind of force will be applied to the ship - the wind force (with sails, the developed superstructure sometimes plays the role of a sail, but this is specific), the power of a jet engine on the deck, the power of the wheels, the power of the screw, etc., etc. , because progress does not stand still (forgot the oars on the galleys!).
        The ship set off and began to move away from the starting place under the action and in the direction of a new force, and the chock remained in its original place at the INITIAL POINT of movement ..
        After a TIME, the additional force ceased to operate and the ship again took up the equilibrium position at the FINAL POINT of motion and the second lump will show that yes, we are standing again. The distance between these chunks (start and end, as well as the time span) is the WAY divided by time, we get the SPEED REGARDING WATER. In addition, we get the direction of our movement, and, therefore, we find the MOTION VECTOR of the ship itself (relative to the water). For general development - on the measured mile, ships are not only tested at maximum speed, on the measured mile a table of correspondence of the revolutions of the screw (wheels, etc.) and the speed of travel is compiled. Moreover, in order to avoid errors from different forces, the influence of depth, wind waves and currents, they make several runs there and back (180 degrees) and average these results for subsequent everyday use.
        I hope I have not offended anyone on such a brief excursion to PHYSICS?
        To be continued ...
  21. 0
    12 November 2018 23: 14
    Thus, all three Japanese destroyers participating in that battle practically followed the “Naniwa” and did not attempt to approach the Russian ships - hence, Varyag did not have the opportunity to sink one of them, or at least damage the Varyag.

    By the way, this is also not true. The second loop of Asama, indicated on all known diagrams, was a maneuver of evading a destroyer thrusting into the channel "in front of the father". Asama's excellent maneuverability saved the brave man from the battering ram, but he immediately discovered that he was chasing the Varyag alone and just as quickly rushed back behind Fr. Phamildo.

    So the Japanese destroyers tried to take part in the battle, but it turned out badly.
    1. 0
      13 November 2018 07: 14
      Quote: Saxahorse
      By the way, this is also not true. The second loop of Asama, indicated on all known diagrams, was a maneuver of evading a destroyer thrusting into the channel "in front of the father".

      Aha :))) Because .Kataev said so :))) There was nothing for Asama to do, how to twist the loop while dodging the destroyer, and yes, it was impossible to dodge from him in any other way than by circulating laughing
      Saxahorse, are you going to turn your head on when you write? I’m silent that you refute the source (the report of the Japanese commander) on the basis of the opinion of a historian, who is still not the most scrupulous ...
      1. 0
        13 November 2018 22: 20
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I’m silent that you refute the source (the report of the Japanese commander) on the basis of the opinion of a historian, who is still not the most scrupulous ...

        But the Japanese scheme, which you yourself showed in the first article, where in color this very second loop is also depicted? Is she a bad source? Maybe you yourself tell why suddenly Yashiro decided to waltz? Instead of pursuing the Varangian by the way.
        1. 0
          15 November 2018 08: 51
          And here it is clear ...
        2. 0
          16 November 2018 07: 28
          This is called - combat maneuvering in order to inflict maximum damage to the enemy with the GK artillery fire. The problem is solved by keeping the OVIR = 0;
          If the enemy stands - Varangian without a move - movement along an arc of a circle and firing in the center ... The gun commandors only carry out horizontal aiming at the target. The elevation angle of the guns does not change.
          If the enemy moves, they fall on a parallel course (or catch-up) and equalize the speed .. Again OVIR = 0;
          The Japanese practiced this whole REV. An artillery officer Losev from one of the cruisers noted that the Japanese “move” and “hold” the ellipse of covering the target with their own change in course and speed.
          Well, something like this.
  22. 0
    19 November 2018 06: 06
    The weekend is over, you can return "to our mournful affairs" (c) not mine.
    Well, we decided that the vessel can have movement under an additional source - thrust vector ...
    Until the mid-19th century (around the 1850s), the victory of the steam engine over the sail began !!! The industrial revolution has taken place ...
    Sail and wind are intermittent values ​​and do not give the possibility of flight planning, cargo delivery, passengers and do not give the opportunity to work on a schedule (!) .. And how many blacks "disappeared" due to the calmness during the transportation of "ebony".
    This revolution hurt Russia only slightly. We lost the Crimean one, we lost the fleet for a long time .. There were few steam units (and even those not the most modern ones). In England, the steam fleet allowed the creation of scheduled flights, regular and independent of the wind.
    Here the CURRENT factor (!) Was designated. an extra hour of operation of a steam engine is an expensive cardiff, high-calorie (not to carry brown coal, extra tons, it is better to take expensive cargo in the holds) .. Romance is over, bomb-bram-rei and sails began to interfere .. (extra costs). And immediately there was competition for speed, for time, for the best route (when the passing current and winds give a day of winning). But the currents must be known and studied - hydrography and hydrology have appeared. Experimental pools appeared, where contours, speed, controllability, and interaction with the fluid were studied ..
    In Russia, a pilot pool appeared only at the beginning of the 20th century ... Ships before this were designed without taking into account model tests.
    In the second half of the 19th century, it became possible to determine a place in the sea by observing luminaries (the invention of the chronometer), the Greenwich Observatory appeared - from the meridian of which the coordinate system was built across the globe and a system for linking objects to coordinates was developed. The Anglitsky lieutenant landed on an island or cape and made astronomical and hydrographic measurements and put on a map ...
    So the maritime empire arose - trade, competition and work, and more work ..
    Russia was forced to use English maps and manuals, but since they were poorly trained in Aglitsky’s literacy, they had to haul interpreters or hire them upon arrival in any region. This was also observed in Soviet times .. Well, many sailors learned pidgin English (it was enough to communicate with the agent or pilot, with the authorities in the port), but it was bad with English maps and manuals ... It’s not clear.
    A simple example for our case: on the map No. 1270 and No. 1258 near the island of Iodolmi (Pkhalmido) strictly West (west) is written in English in small letters - dries - dehydration, drying out at low tide and written depth at high tide - 17 feet , i.e. less fathom. In the 1901 location, it is also written (translated from English) that to the left (to the west) of the island of Iodolmi there is a sandbank, silt and it is in this direction that the Varyag turned. It is interesting that neither courses, nor distances, nor distances, nor bearings for landmarks were recorded by either the Varyag journal or the Korean .. They sailed “by eye” huddled together in a conning tower and lost control ... IT WAS NOT RIGHT TO TURN RIGHT! And the lot published in the Ministry of Naval Affairs in 1901 for Rudnev should be a GUIDING DOCUMENT - screaming - catching fire there ..
    Senior officer Stepanov, who led the emergency parties on the deck, was not affected by emotions, as he was responsible for this matter. Participated directly.
    Still, I believe (my opinion) that the cruiser Varyag touched the ground and was forced to work the machines back (to crawl away). If you just turn around, then one car forward and the other back and turn around ... (taking into account wind and current).
    Another point - not a single Japanese shell could “move the steam boiler” from the foundation. Shells exploded on the surface of the water ... But touching the ground could affect the foundation of the boiler. After all, the boiler ends at the chimney and begins from the double bottom space. It's not a high-explosive shell, but a thing stronger than Goethe's Faust (c) is not mine.
    Again, personal opinion - (IMHO, the bad influence of England) - Kramp (the shark of capitalism) made a weak longitudinal set of the Varangian body, so he had vibrations on the wave, why there were gaps and bearings were broken - the shafts did not hesitate.
    And the steam engines did not stand on a common base plate, but on individual plates (number eight) ...
    Well, so "bachil eyes, sho kupuvali, now eat - they will bump up" ... The act was signed, accepted at the plant ... what claims. Immediately did not finish that the ship is rubbish? Suckers.
    Capitalism stands on this, sucker and pays for illiteracy.
    Such a disposition with currents and physics, little ones (!)
    1. 0
      20 November 2018 05: 20
      one copy: 17 feet less than 3 fathoms ..