Submachine gun carbine: modules, calibers and "whales"

Submachine gun carbine: modules, calibers and "whales"
"Vector". 406 mm carbine


Weapon and firms. KRISS USA is the North American subsidiary of Swiss based KRISS. Its products are sold nationwide, from Virginia to California. Now every self-respecting company must have its own company mission. So, KRISS USA wrote to themselves that their "mission is to provide customers with products that have very high quality workmanship and no less impressive design, which is based on the best practices and innovative ideas." Sounds great, right?


"Vector", a classic of the genre. Caliber 11,43 mm

The Krisovites themselves claim that their trademark is the tip of a spear, that is, they are at the very forefront of scientific and technological progress in the development of modern firearms technologies of the XNUMXst century. They also have their own philosophy underlying the company's approach to creating firearms, its essence is to help the shooter maximize the speed and accuracy of shooting, and therefore the effectiveness of hitting one or more targets. And they succeeded. It was decided to use the patents of the French designer Renault Kerb to achieve the assigned tasks, but on the basis of which the design of a fundamentally new submachine gun with a half-free shutter was created. That is, they learned how to make such a weapon in which the energy of bestowal is used "to work in the interests of the shooter, and not against him, as it was until now."


"Vector" in the context. A relatively small shutter and balancer on inclined guides are clearly visible

This was achieved due to the fact that the impulse to roll back the moving parts of the shutter in it is redirected not so much backward as down. At the same time, the KRISS Super V submachine gun shutter itself has a relatively small mass and has protrusions on the sides that enter the inclined grooves of a much heavier balancer. The balancer moves in the body of the submachine gun at a slight angle up and down. During the shot, the shutter movement to its extreme rear position leads to a vertical movement of the balancer downward, and in the first moments of the shutter recoil due to the groove profile on the balancer, its movement is also slowed down.


Way of working

The handle used to cock the KRISS Super V shutter is foldable and is located on the left side of its housing. When firing, it remains stationary, and firing from the "vector" is carried out with the shutter closed. The trigger mechanism of the trigger type is used, which makes it possible to conduct both single fire and shoot bursts. Moreover, the trigger is located above the axis of the barrel and it also houses the translator of the firing modes. The fuse is also located above the axis of the barrel above the pistol fire control handle. A design feature is the cavity in the front of the USM box directly above the barrel, into which, if necessary, the Surefire tactical flashlight can be inserted. The pistol grip of the KRISS Super V submachine gun is significantly higher than the axis of the barrel bore, which also helps to reduce the toss of the barrel and increases the stability of the weapon during firing from the hands without using a stock.


Cartridge ejection window and Picatinny rail


XNUMX-position switch

That's how the engineers of the company developed the innovative KRISS Super V system, in which the removal of recoil energy down and to the side of the shooter’s shoulder can significantly reduce the muzzle of the barrel, which in turn allows the shooter to fire shots at the target with greater speed and accuracy simultaneously . In all these parameters, the TDI KRISS Super V submachine gun is significantly superior to such samples as the German 11,43 mm HK UMP45 submachine gun.


The two main modules of "Vector" with a barrel length of 406 and 140 mm.

At first it was a submachine gun firing .45 ACP rounds and having a corresponding short barrel with a length of 140 mm. But on the latest generations of KRISS’s “vectors”, firstly, in the best traditions of the modularity so popular today, it’s possible to change calibers in accordance with the preferences of customers, and secondly, disassembling them without using tools allows the user to quickly quickly replace barrels with the shutter recoil compensator in seconds.


Lower plug-in module with silencer simulator

Thus came the KRISS Vector CRB / SO with a 16-inch (406-mm) barrel, which is already classified as a rifle, and meets all state standards for rifles, without any special permissions. This is a self-loading version of the “Vector” for the civilian arms market, which also has a silencer simulator, but it only shoots with single shots. The use of an elongated barrel in this civilian version is caused by certain requirements of US law, according to which any civilian long-barrel weapon must have a barrel whose length must be at least 16 inches, otherwise it will be considered short-barrel.


Upper alpine-replaceable module - price $ 294.95 - $ 299.95

The presence of the Picatinny rail MIL-STD 1913 allows you to use the sight so beloved by many shooters with a “red dot” or virtually any optics. Well, and the 13-inch top rail allows you to use optical instruments of any size or length at the choice of the shooter without restrictions associated, for example, with the small length of such a bar on some weapons.


Interchangeable butt


One of the stock options


Silencer simulator

There are also “whales” (that is, sets) that allow you to quickly convert the original sample, using sets of finished parts for this. KRISS MagEx 2 Kit and Mag 02. Allows you to turn a standard "Vector" into a carbine.


Set ("kit") KRISS MagEx 2 Kit and Mag 02

It is a complete turnkey kit for the standard Glock pistol magazine. Mag-Ex 2 is ideal for KRISS Vector and is available for 9 mm and 10 mm cartridges 10 × 22 mm (.40 S&W). Moreover, two magazines with a capacity of 40 rounds of 9 mm caliber and 33 rounds of 10 mm are designed for it, and KRISS Vector itself, in turn, is fully compatible with two-row magazines for Glock 21 pistols with 13 or 30 rounds of ammunition.


Kit (“kit”) KRISS MagEx 2 Kit and Mag 01 for 9 mm rounds


Set ("kit") KRISS MagEx 2 Kit and Mag 03 for cartridges of 9 mm caliber

The stock is made of steel, aluminum and modern polymer composites. It is attached to the top module on a hinge with a push button, and it folds to the right, although the same hinge can also be adjusted so that it folds to the left. The scope of delivery includes two QD swivel mounts on the left and right sides. Interestingly, this butt is also telescopic, and can be adjusted in three positions.

MagEx2 Store 9mm

That is, thanks to such a modular design, the modern Vector submachine gun can easily be transformed into a rifle, or rather a carbine, based on its general dimensions. The company also developed the DMK22 rifle complex, which is nothing but the same AR-15 rifle. Its full name is Kriss Defiance DMK22C .22lr AR-15. This weapon is very well suited for training, since it has virtually no recoil. Empty weight is only 2 kg, which is also very convenient. The handle is metal and also modular, that is, it can be selected in size.


Kriss Defiance DMK22C .22lr AR-15

Yes, but if there is a weapon of one caliber and design, and if there are magazines from other weapons of other calibers (or the same!), Then ... why not combine them? After all, what does a consumer need in a market? The choice! A lot of products similar in their consumer properties, but at the same time having differences. No wonder the release of rifles AR-15 in the United States is not involved except that only lazy. Because there is a demand ... “If I could put Nikanor Ivanovich’s lips to Ivan Kuzmich’s nose ...” - this is the same with rifles and submachine guns. And the Krisovites did just that, and made another “kit”: the KRISS MagEx 2 Kit and Mag 01 chambered for 9mm caliber cartridges and even made a “kit” for the Glock 21 pistol! Sets with different barrel casings were prepared, that is, again, a new product on the principle of "taste, color."


If there is a “whale” to the submachine gun, then why not be a “whale” to the gun itself? KRISS MagEx 2 Kit and Mag 05


Sand color


Nowhere without “picnets”!


Adjustable butt!


Company samples are painted in a variety of colors, ranging from “Alpine white” to “black terracotta”, which has the feature that does not give glare
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  1. andrewkor 19 January 2020 06: 20 New
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    PPS-43, the best, most reliable weapon of this class.
    Everything has already been invented before us!
    1. raw174 19 January 2020 08: 36 New
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      Quote: andrewkor
      PPS-43, the best, most reliable weapon of this class.
      Everything has already been invented before us!

      Funny ...
      Recently I had a chance to shoot from the Vityaz Publishing House, this is an excellent machine ... I’m not the most accurate shooter, I put the shop in circles of less than 50 cm single from a rack with 15 meters. PP is a good and necessary weapon, especially for law enforcement and anti-terror forces.
      1. Ingvar 72 19 January 2020 09: 25 New
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        Quote: raw174
        I’m not the most accurate shooter, I’ve put the shop in a circle of less than 50 cm, single from a rack with 15 m.

        This is a very good result, do not be discouraged. And Cedar is short for such results as Wedge. request
        1. raw174 19 January 2020 11: 16 New
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          Quote: Ingvar 72
          This is a very good result, do not be discouraged. And Cedar is short for such results as Wedge.

          A master of sports of Russia was shooting nearby, everything fell to 5-7 cm ... The hero is an applied scientist, it’s convenient to shoot from him and the return is very insignificant ...
          1. Ingvar 72 19 January 2020 11: 42 New
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            Quote: raw174
            A master of sports of Russia shot nearby, everything fell to him 5-7 cm ..

            So then a master of sports! I’m shooting the same thing quite well, but I doubt that I’ll put everything in the tag from a fifty dollars. And what was the sight, staffing level or collimator?
            1. raw174 19 January 2020 15: 54 New
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              Quote: Ingvar 72
              And what was the sight, staffing level or collimator?

              Established, plank. The excess of the trajectory is approximately 15-20 cm, at this distance ... We aim in the groin, we fall into the chest.
              1. gross kaput 28 January 2020 20: 14 New
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                Something somehow all this is strange, it somehow happened that on Vityaz the bar is marked with a step of 50 m, 50-100-150-200 m, while unlike AK, there is no “P” position for understandable reasons .

                Well, if the bar stood at 100, an excess of 50 meters will be 8 cm, at 150 - 18-20 cm, if at 200 then 30-32 cm.
      2. Maj
        Maj 19 January 2020 14: 49 New
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        Quote: raw174
        In general, PP is a good and necessary weapon, especially for law enforcement

        Why do police officers need PP? And in general, automatic weapons?
        1. raw174 19 January 2020 16: 00 New
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          Quote: MJ
          Quote: raw174
          In general, PP is a good and necessary weapon, especially for law enforcement

          Why do police officers need PP? And in general, automatic weapons?

          Everyone does not need, but Thunder is quite suitable. By law enforcement units, I mean Rosguardia, OMON, and OVO, always had automatic weapons, and in urban areas, PP is more convenient than a long machine gun ...
          1. Maj
            Maj 19 January 2020 16: 08 New
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            Well, except for special police units (riot police, etc.). I agree with that.
    2. Maj
      Maj 19 January 2020 14: 47 New
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      Quote: andrewkor
      PPS-43, the best, most reliable weapon of this class.

      The only advantage of PPS-43 is its low cost.
      PPS-43 has no more advantages.
      1. John22 19 January 2020 20: 43 New
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        If your statement is not a joke, then you do not know the design of PPS-43. Its reliability, compared with pre-war PP, is a consequence of its modified design. AK uses the design idea of ​​PPS-43
        1. ssergey1978 20 January 2020 21: 39 New
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          what idea does AK use from faculty? There is nothing in common from the word at all.
          1. John22 20 January 2020 22: 34 New
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            In PP before PPP, the receiver was separated from the trigger by the wall and sand falling into the receiver (through the window for ejecting cartridges or through the shutter handle slot) could jam the shutter, i.e. obstruct his movement. In the faculty, there is no partition between the receiver and the trigger, the bolt does not move along the bottom of the receiver, but along the limbs of the trigger in its upper part. Entered sand falls to the bottom of the trigger box and does not impede the movement of the shutter. This is the key to the reliability of the teaching staff. Sudaev used the same principle of placing the shutter in his machine under an intermediate cartridge. After his death, this decision was applied in AK-47. And this contributes to its failure-free operation in case of pollution.
  2. andrewkor 19 January 2020 06: 32 New
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    Something banned me !?
    1. Alf
      Alf 19 January 2020 20: 18 New
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      Quote: andrewkor
      Something banned me !?

      And so that uncomfortable questions are not asked. laughing
      Democracy and glasnost in action, you panim ..
  3. Monar 19 January 2020 07: 08 New
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    Specialists, please explain. And is a quick-changeable barrel really needed on personal small arms?
    Change when overheating? Isn’t it simpler than one but more "fat"?
    Carry 2-3 different lengths with you? Well, let him change it for 30 seconds when the situation changes. And at this time, a goal, like a falcon. And the mass is superfluous.
    1. Alf
      Alf 19 January 2020 20: 22 New
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      Quote: Monar
      Specialists, please explain. And is a quick-changeable barrel really needed on personal small arms?
      Change when overheating? Isn’t it simpler than one but more "fat"?
      Carry 2-3 different lengths with you? Well, let him change it for 30 seconds when the situation changes. And at this time, a goal, like a falcon. And the mass is superfluous.

      Do not forget that the other barrel is also a completely different ballistics, which are constantly "forgotten" by the zealots of the "designer".
  4. Amateur 19 January 2020 07: 14 New
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    A piece of iron in which the force vector does not work with angles of + - 180 degrees, but is decomposed by ~ 120 degrees (a la swan, cancer and pike, but there is no swan), while the third vector is balanced only by giving up / back. It is argued that
    can significantly reduce the muzzle flare of the barrel, which in turn gives the shooter the opportunity to shoot at the target with greater speed and accuracy at the same time.
    . Newton's third law repealed? what
    1. dokusib 19 January 2020 09: 38 New
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      And what does not suit you? The flip is compensated by moving the shutter down. The recoil due to the general geometry of the weapon falls almost parallel to the shooter's forearm. I don’t quite understand why the company is called Swiss. KRISS Vector was created by the Americans for the American market. For the Yankees, Tommy-gun is a cult weapon, but effective only in gang warfare, since 45 caliber for a submachine gun is large. But somewhere in the 80s and 90s there was a fashion for rejecting 9mm cartridges in the personal weapons of the police and the FBI due to several incidents in which they were not effective enough. And of course, the idea arose that if we offer a 45 gauge pp that allows firing as efficiently as 9mm for a government customer, they will tear it off with hands in order to unify the ammunition. But the fashion for large caliber passed had to block the vector under 9mm where such a tricky shutter is not particularly needed and even harmful as it increases the weight and dimensions of the weapon. But the real Vector is only 45 gauge, and judging by the huge number of videos on YouTube, it is really stable and stable when shooting bursts
      1. Gray brother 19 January 2020 09: 51 New
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        Quote: dokusib
        The offset is compensated by moving the shutter down

        Then it will be even worse - the lever is formed, the balance must move upwards to compensate, and not exacerbate.
        1. dokusib 19 January 2020 15: 45 New
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          A light shutter transfers its energy to the balancer, pushing it down, at the lower point of movement, the balancer slows down transferring its kinetic energy to all weapons. There is a jerk down to compensate for the throwing of weapons.
          1. Gray brother 19 January 2020 15: 57 New
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            Quote: dokusib
            There is a jerk down to compensate for the throwing of weapons.

            A jerk down from one end cannot compensate for a jerk up from the opposite.
            1. dokusib 19 January 2020 16: 11 New
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              Not a valid example. The balancer moves in the region of the center of mass of the weapon. And according to your logic, then he should be in the butt area. And the only control handle in the middle is like on an Uzi. Then yes it will immediately become the most crooked weapon in the world.
              1. dokusib 19 January 2020 16: 25 New
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                https://youtu.be/aVcIiAA4yxo
              2. Gray brother 19 January 2020 16: 36 New
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                Quote: dokusib
                And according to your logic, then he should be in the butt area.

                In the "center of mass" he cannot stand, because there he will be completely useless. The lever is needed anyway, otherwise nothing will work.
                1. dokusib 19 January 2020 17: 03 New
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                  In the article there are pictures from the patent. Look at them. The shutter and balancer which is part of it go down redirecting the recoil momentum.
                  1. Gray brother 19 January 2020 17: 10 New
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                    Quote: dokusib
                    redirecting the recoil momentum.

                    It’s one thing to extinguish the recoil momentum, and tossing the barrel during a shot to compensate is another.
                    There is, of course, a direct connection between them, but this is not the same thing. This means that the balancer is therefore located in the middle so that it does not affect the barrel offset vertically at all.
          2. Passing 20 January 2020 20: 08 New
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            Quote: dokusib
            at the lower point of movement, the balancer slows down transferring its kinetic energy to all weapons. There is a jerk down to compensate for the throwing of weapons.

            Newton’s law tells us that while the shutter was pushed down, the body was pushed in the opposite direction, i.e. up. And the impact of the shutter on the housing at the bottom point, simply compensates for the flip from the downward movement of the shutter itself. Those. the scheme works for itself, it throws itself up, compensates itself and what is the point? This scheme does not give any additional compensation for the toss, in relation to the traditional horizontal shutter. And the return itself “to the shoulder”, such as supposedly redirecting downward, as stated in the article, it does not reduce at all, it simply adds two more impulses in the vertical plane, between the horizontal ones, of the traditional scheme. This is physics, its PR cannot be fooled by manipulations.
            But, if people say that they feel the difference, then the positive effect of this scheme may be associated with
            1) The increased shutter stroke length (possible, it is necessary to compare specifically) in comparison with the traditional scheme - this “softens” the recoil.
            2) A very low trunk line, which is impossible for the classic layout. This looks like the main factor in reducing the toss.
            1. gross kaput 28 January 2020 20: 53 New
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              Quote: Passing by
              Newton’s law tells us that while the shutter was pushed down, the body was pushed in the opposite direction, i.e. up.

              Probably it is worth repeating the laws of mechanics, Newton’s third law, at the same time and deal with the force vectors - otherwise you get nonsense.
              1. Passing 29 January 2020 18: 19 New
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                OK
                Newton’s third law states: The interactions of two bodies on each other are equal and directed in opposite directions

                Repeated. Nothing changed.
                It seems you need it, and at the same time analyze the force vectors again, in the light of Newton’s law you have forgotten wink .
                1. gross kaput 30 January 2020 18: 25 New
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                  Quote: Passing by
                  Newton’s law tells us that while the shutter was pushed down, the body was pushed in the opposite direction, i.e. up

                  How did your “corps" push up? holy spirit?
                  Quote: Passing by
                  Repeated. Nothing changed.

                  Say thanks to your school physics teacher - it was necessary to hammer and not hammer on the fact that the student did not learn the material.
                  I will explain it on my fingers - at the time of the shot, the bullet receives a forward momentum, and the weapon has the same impulse opposite to the vector of the bullet momentum, in systems with a free shutter, the pulse acts on the bolt and through the elastic connection (spring) partially on the weapon box - i.e. in this particular case, since due to kinematics, the longitudinal movement of the shutter passes into the vertical movement of the balancer, part of the impulse is transmitted through the spring to the box but this impulse is directed, the box moves DOWN.
                  Do not believe? and you take the ball, put it on the table and push it with your hand - a task for the kindergartner - which way the ball will roll? in the one in which you pushed him or in the opposite? According to your calculations, it turns out that the opposite laughing
                  PS I advise urgently patenting your discovery - the designers are all wise with reduced returns - all kinds of muzzle brakes and dampers will be exhausted, but here everything is ingenious and simple - it’s enough to make a weapon with a free shutter and when fired, the shutter will run back and all the weapons forward. laughing
                  1. Passing 30 January 2020 19: 14 New
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                    Yeah, in vain you crammed letters at school, in fact, you had to delve into what was described by letters. Your teacher does not set off. wink
                    Let me clarify where you missed the elephant:
                    The bullet went forward, the shutter back, further, under the influence of the shutter impulse, the balancer begins to fall down, until this moment you guessed correctly, but from this moment on you lose sight of one of the acting forces - the balancer must push something down and down it is pushed not by a bolt moving longitudinally, but by a certain guide, an oblique groove, I don’t know what to call it correctly, fixed on the receiver, and in this groove there is a force opposite to the downward movement of the balancer. This force pushes the receiver up. It is maximum at this initial moment, at the time of maximum acceleration, and very quickly drops to zero, long before the lower point of the balancer. Not quite to zero, friction forces add a force vector upward all the time. At the same time, the force of the spring starts supporting the balancer, it pushes the receiver down. At the initial moment, it is equal to zero, and gradually grows as the spring compresses. Those. for the receiver we have an “explosive” impulse up, and a smoothly increasing impulse down. Impulses in total are not yet mutually compensated. Finally, at the lower point, the balancer hits, and this adds the impulse missing to the balance. Now half the cycle is complete,
                    All, except for those arising from friction, the vertical impulses from the BALANCE of the BALANCE, as it were, are mutually balanced. But, the shooter still feels various vertical disturbances due to the non-synchronization of the balancing impulses.
                    For the second half of the cycle, I think it’s clear and it makes no sense to paint.
                    1. gross kaput 30 January 2020 20: 09 New
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                      Quote: Passing by
                      mounted on the receiver, and in this groove there is a force opposite to the downward movement of the balancer. This force pushes the receiver up.

                      It was already invented long before you

                      This is exactly your option. wink Congratulations colleague you just invented the perpetual motion machine laughing
                      1. Passing 30 January 2020 20: 24 New
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                        So enlighten me dark, what kind of force makes the balancer move down, where it arises, where it acts. I look forward to a revelation session!
                      2. gross kaput 30 January 2020 20: 41 New
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                        They have already explained everything to you, it’s not my problem if you didn’t understand the design or the forces inside it look carefully at the weapon - the cycle from the moment of the shot to the moment of the sleeve extraction is precisely the first half of the automation cycle, at this moment the balancer goes down completely, the vibration of the weapon occurs only at the end of the second half of the cycle - after the shutter comes to the front position and the balancer hits up and the shutter in the stump of the trunk. Maybe some thoughts will appear laughing
                        PS And the picture with the baron to help you is a joke of course, but there is a hint of an error in it.
                      3. Passing 30 January 2020 21: 15 New
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                        Quote: gross kaput
                        They have already explained everything to you
                        Truth? Anything that I’m extremely specific to, step by step pointed out the glaring omissions in your fantasies?
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        not my problem
                        While you have nothing to object essentially to specific points, this is exactly your problem.
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        look carefully at the weapon - the cycle from the moment of the shot to the moment of the sleeve extraction is precisely the first half of the automation cycle, at this moment the balancer goes down completely, the vibration of the weapon occurs only at the end of the second half of the cycle - after the shutter comes to the front position and the balancer hits up and the shutter in the stump of the trunk.

                        Do you generally understand the connection between the applied force, the acceleration arising from this, gradually increasing speed, and, accordingly, gradually increasing movement? Judging by your post, you naively believe that when you apply force, movement instantly occurs. So, you can not believe me, you can ask your physics teacher, there is such a thing as inertia. Have you heard something about inertia? What you are trying to pass off as proof is just your fantasies, in reality, the speed increases gradually, and if you see the movement, this does not mean that force was applied at that moment, it means that the force was applied BEFORE THIS MOMENT. There is a lag between the moment the force appears, and the moment when there is a significant movement visible in the frame.
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        PS And the picture with the baron to help you is a joke of course, but there is a hint of an error in it.

                        You are such a joker, such a joker, all in hints, allusions, but I am a simple person, why would I be more specific about funny pictures, just chop the truth of the uterus, as it is, without subtle equivocations, write down the half-cycle step by step, eh? wink
                      4. Passing 30 January 2020 22: 36 New
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                        I’ll also add a bunch to your video about the toss.
                        You were completely baffled by your emphasis on false entities, you turned on the critical filter a little, and it became obvious that the throwing up of weapons on the video was not from the movement of the balancer at all, but from the moment arising from the recoil force applied to the shoulder equal to the separation of the axes of the trunk and forearm .
  • Bad_gr 19 January 2020 20: 45 New
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    Quote: dokusib
    The flip is compensated by moving the shutter down.

    With such a low location of the barrel, there will be no toss even with a classic shutter.
  • Gray brother 19 January 2020 09: 44 New
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    Quote: Amateur
    Newton's third law canceled?

    No, just the breech is thrown along with the muzzle, so they remain on the same line as kakbe.
  • evgic 19 January 2020 09: 56 New
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    Under the APS, let the whale do. There will be a carbine and pp
    1. Gray brother 19 January 2020 10: 04 New
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      Quote: evgic
      Under the APS, let the whale do. There will be a carbine and pp

      There is a similar one, but it’s even inconvenient in appearance.
    2. Catfish 19 January 2020 12: 29 New
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      APS is certainly good, but everything rests on the cartridge, it is weak and does not help against modern body armor. request
      1. Maj
        Maj 19 January 2020 15: 16 New
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        Quote: Sea Cat
        APS is definitely good

        What?
        APS is simply a misunderstanding. Curiosity.
        1. Catfish 19 January 2020 15: 27 New
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          Everyone except the cartridge.
          1. Maj
            Maj 19 January 2020 15: 32 New
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            Quote: Sea Cat
            To everyone

            Do you think that for some reason the gun may be automatic?
            Why is he doing this? Where from such "weapons", leading automatic fire, you can get? From APS automatic fire is not fired by a shooter, but by a "sower".
            Quote: Sea Cat
            except cartridge

            Imagine what would happen if he had a normal cartridge. After all, the return would increase too. And the spread of the "seeder" would increase too.
            1. Catfish 19 January 2020 15: 56 New
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              Why is he doing this? Where from such "weapons", leading automatic fire, you can get? From APS automatic fire is not fired by a shooter, but by a "sower".

              Cutting off a queue of 2-3 rounds, I quite normally hit the chest target at 10-20 meters, and for a longer distance the gun is not needed at all, for this there is an automatic machine.
              Imagine what would happen if he had a normal cartridge.

              Well, you will talk to the creators of the Beretta 92R on this subject. smile
              1. Maj
                Maj 19 January 2020 16: 06 New
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                Quote: Sea Cat
                Cutting off a line of 2-3 rounds, I quite normally hit the chest target at 10-20 meters, and for a longer distance the gun is not needed at all,

                The normal combat distance for an army pistol, and the APS is positioned that way, 50 m.
                Quote: Sea Cat
                there is an automaton for this.

                But what about the pilot who died in Syria? After all, he was "armed" with the APS.
                Quote: Sea Cat
                talk to the creators of the Beretta 92R on this subject

                93R.
                This weapon is considered unsuccessful. They almost never sell it abroad (nobody buys it). Like Glock 18.
                1. Catfish 19 January 2020 17: 00 New
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                  The normal combat distance for an army pistol, and the APS is positioned that way, 50 m.

                  It is positioned in the charters, and life decides differently.
                  But what about the pilot who died in Syria? After all, he was "armed" with the APS.

                  And this is the fault of those who selected equipment for him, but in that situation, any pistol was useless.
                  This weapon is considered unsuccessful.

                  I do not have such information. Who admitted?

                  PS Minuses are not mine, I do not have a habit. hi
                  1. gross kaput 28 January 2020 20: 58 New
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                    In that situation, any pilot’s small arms would be useless, even a minigun, for a pilot shot down over enemy territory, the salvation lies in the quick arrival of the MSS, in the worst case, own legs and maximum stealth, as soon as any pistol / machine gun / machine gun has discovered it sell life more expensive and gives a ghostly chance to last until the PSS helicopter approaches. And in this case, the weapon that has more B / C will be better - for the task of the pilot is not to try to get into someone, but to keep the enemy as far away from his shelter as possible.
                    1. Catfish 28 January 2020 22: 26 New
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                      In that situation, any pilot’s small arms would be useless,

                      I wrote about this. hi
                      And this is the fault of those who selected equipment for him, but in that situation, any pistol was useless.
                2. scriptguru 20 January 2020 03: 00 New
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                  In fact, such a weapon takes place and is used, it just has its own niche.
                  For example, in Israel, some police / security guards have automatic Glock with a butt, and the same Jericho can be equipped with the same butt. And they use Mini-Uzi for themselves.
                  The idea is that the weapon is quite light, but coming at a short distance is very lethal - you can neutralize a person in seconds. Ammunition is inexpensive and affordable.

                  I used to have Jericho with a butt - an interesting thing, but without automatic shooting there is so little sense, the accuracy is quite comparable to shooting with hands. As a result, sold.
            2. Gray brother 19 January 2020 16: 02 New
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              Quote: MJ
              Where from such "weapons", leading automatic fire, you can get?

              Someone who has no time to aim at, and maybe also according to his homies, provided they are of course close by.
              1. Maj
                Maj 19 January 2020 16: 14 New
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                Quote: Gray Brother
                Someone who has no time to aim at

                1. The cartridge is not an army, low-power service. Suitable ONLY for police.
                2. Police do not need automatic weapons in principle. She has a different contingent of "customers." And to arrange shootings in the city, this is not a function of the police.
                3. APS is not suitable for special police units (such as OMON), the cartridge is low-power. And the aiming range of the car. no shooting.
                The circle is closed. Those to whom the APS would not have been identified.
                1. Gray brother 19 January 2020 16: 43 New
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                  Quote: MJ
                  1. The cartridge is not an army, low-power service. Suitable ONLY for police.

                  There are different cartridges.
                  Quote: MJ
                  2. Police do not need automatic weapons in principle.

                  I think the police have their own opinion on this subject, the opposite)))
                  Quote: MJ
                  And to arrange shootings in the city, this is not a function of the police.

                  This was the case in England once - a bobby with some doubles walked.
                  Quote: MJ
                  Those to whom the APS would not have been identified.

                  Snipers second barrel, the pilots. Specura uses them - because it can.
        2. ssergey1978 20 January 2020 21: 42 New
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          You are in vain. APS of course is a little old but the weapon is high-quality.
      2. Simargl 20 January 2020 19: 18 New
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        Quote: Sea Cat
        APS is definitely good
        Even in the best of times, it’s like shooting a cannon in dimensions of 152 mm with 23 mm shots, but in line. Now it looks menacing, but ridiculous (minus: I will count who considers the mass per 1 kg under a cartridge twice as strong as 5,6 LR normal).
        1. ssergey1978 20 January 2020 21: 44 New
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          The cartridge 9x18 mm at a distance of up to 8 meters from the muzzle end is not inferior in effectiveness to 9x19 mm
          1. Simargl 20 January 2020 23: 59 New
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            Quote: ssergey1978
            The cartridge 9x18 mm at a distance of up to 8 meters from the muzzle end is not inferior in effectiveness to 9x19 mm
            What time! That's just what I think: why is this Meritsa police officers striving for a cartridge in an evil way to adopt ...
    3. Maj
      Maj 19 January 2020 15: 15 New
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      A carbine on a PM cartridge? Why is it needed?
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 January 2020 20: 27 New
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        Quote: MJ
        A carbine on a PM cartridge? Why is it needed?

        This is not PM, APS!
        See the picture above!
        1. Simargl 20 January 2020 19: 22 New
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          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          This is not PM, APS!
          APS fires 9x18 rounds (PM), if that. From 7H25 it will fall apart.
  • Operator 19 January 2020 13: 00 New
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    Pistol-machine gun by definition, it is intended for firing bursts, not single shots, moreover from an uncomfortable position (with hands).

    The layout of the PP should be minimalistic - two handles, between them a magazine (for the lack of displacement of the center of gravity as the cartridges are used up). The shutter is free, the automation is balanced (for the absence of a shift in the center of gravity due to the reciprocating movement of the shutter), firing from the open shutter on a roll-out (with the aim of partially extinguishing the recoil).

    All alternative solutions are in the furnace.
    1. dokusib 19 January 2020 15: 58 New
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      KRISS Vector is what you intended. The shutter redirects the recoil energy down to compensate for the toss. All modern modifications in other than 45 calibres, with other barrel lengths and little needed buns are commercial offers for the private market
      1. Operator 19 January 2020 17: 56 New
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        First of all, it is necessary to compensate for the cyclic displacement of the center of gravity of the weapon due to the reciprocating motion of the bolt weighing 1/2 kg (which is not the word in the “Vector” at all), and then deal with small things like throwing up the weapon due to the mismatch of the barrel axis with weapons retention plane.
        1. scriptguru 20 January 2020 02: 50 New
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          This is a theory, but in practice it works perfectly, as it was intended.
      2. Simargl 20 January 2020 19: 26 New
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        Quote: dokusib
        KRISS Vector is what you intended. The shutter redirects the recoil energy down to compensate for the toss.
        It’s wild nonsense - to fight with the mass movement across the axis of the bore!
        90% of the result will be the location of the CM on the axis of the barrel. P90 - as an option: there is also ammunition closer to the CM. Everything else is useless dances with a tambourine.
  • Maj
    Maj 19 January 2020 14: 44 New
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    The two main modules of "Vector" with a barrel length of 406 and 140 mm.

    Why pistol cartridges such a long barrel, 406 mm?
    Only suitable for entertainment. And for collectors.
    1. Hog
      Hog 19 January 2020 15: 05 New
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      Quote: MJ
      The two main modules of "Vector" with a barrel length of 406 and 140 mm.

      Why pistol cartridges such a long barrel, 406 mm?
      Only suitable for entertainment. And for collectors.

      Legislation, in some countries short-barrels are prohibited.
      1. Maj
        Maj 19 January 2020 15: 17 New
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        Quote: Hog
        Legislation, in some countries short-barrels are prohibited.

        Then you need to take a normal long barrel. And this is not a misunderstanding.
        1. dokusib 19 January 2020 15: 49 New
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          Ammo is cheaper. It is important for those who shoot a lot.
          1. Maj
            Maj 19 January 2020 15: 53 New
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            Quote: MJ
            Only suitable for entertainment.
            1. dokusib 19 January 2020 16: 18 New
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              Yes. I wrote above Vector was conceived as an assault rifle for 45 caliber. In this capacity, it is not particularly in demand (in some places in America the police special forces and local sheriffs). All the rest are commercial options, that is, by and large, for entertainment.
    2. scriptguru 20 January 2020 02: 55 New
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      The greater the initial velocity of the bullet, the lower the volume of the shot (easier to jam), the higher the accuracy.

      Compared to weapons with a more powerful cartridge - again, quieter, less recoil, less penetrating ability (that is, shooting at a person you don’t really have to worry that he will hit five more behind him), cheaper (both weapons and ammunition), weapons has a longer life (weaker cartridge, slower bullet - less wear).

      If they did not make sense, then they would not be popular. And they are popular (see MP5).
    3. ssergey1978 20 January 2020 21: 46 New
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      For longer firing, a longer barrel is heavier, therefore it takes longer to heat up
  • Jurkovs 9 March 2020 07: 17 New
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    An increase in barrel length increases muzzle energy. Question. Does a silencer increase muzzle energy?