Military Review

AR-15 of the Schmeisser company

48
Weapon and firms. Today, we are unlikely to find a middle-aged man who would not hear the name Schmeisser. Moreover, even outside Europe, people know that the Schmeisser is nothing more than an angular German submachine gun during the Second World War. In Soviet cinema, the Germans usually go with him through the fields, roll up their sleeves and shoot long bursts from the hip. However, advanced ones also know that it is completely wrong to call this weapon “Schmeisser,” since the German gunsmith Hugo Schmeisser was not its creator. But, however, he left in stories small arms are a notable contribution, and the arms company that bears his name still exists.



AR-15 of the Colt company. Right view. Swedish Army Museum, Stockholm



The same rifle. Left view


“A son must become a hero if his father is a hero!”


The future famous gunsmith 24 of September 1884 of the year was born in the family of Luis Schmeisser, one of the leading designers of the Bergmann company, which specialized in the development and production of automatic weapons. So Hugo inherited the profession of a gunsmith from his father and subsequently got a job in the same company.


But this is a very interesting photo: a sentry with the M16 rifle, pacing in front of the princely palace in Monaco. Well, at least from the principle they have adopted something ... European. But no - M16, and no nails!


And then it was he who invented and embodied something completely epochal in metal - a short quick-fire carbine that fired pistol cartridges, that is, the first submachine gun in the history of mankind. In fact, from a formal point of view, this machine was second, since the first was the Italian Villar-Perosa M1915. However, in the original version it was a real machine gun, moreover, with a shield and two barrels, designed to equip airplanes and only then literally accidentally fell into the infantry. This weapon was not widely used, which cannot be said about the creation of Schmeisser. Here is his submachine gun called MP18, which not only turned out to be convenient for use, but also became the prototype for all the constructions of this type of infantry weapon that followed.


Submachine gun MP18


A new type of weapon


When firing a cartridge of 9 mm caliber from the Parabellum pistol, it had acceptable overall dimensions, which made it easy to use it in the trenches, a convenient wooden stock with the same stock. The store was located on the side and this gave the shooter a number of specific inconveniences, but on the other hand, he could snuggle up to the ground while firing from a prone position - a very important property for an infantryman on the battlefield. Shop design engineer Leer on 32 cartridge, also used Luger from P.08. It was heavy, expensive and difficult to manufacture. But time was running out, so Schmeisser used what he had on hand. Therefore, stores with direct feed capacity of 20 and 32 cartridge for MP18 appeared only after the war.

In total, at the end of the war, Germany managed to produce 18 of thousands of such submachine guns - a seemingly impressive number. But here in the troops they got much less, no more than 10 thousand. So they simply did not manage to play any special role.

Outlaw pattern


And then Germany, having lost the war, received the Treaty of Versailles, which banned it from manufacturing and submachine guns - only a small number of them were allowed to be used by the police. All German arms enterprises, except for the Simson company, were closed under this agreement, so the gunsmiths who worked for them had no choice but to cross over. At the same time, Theodor Bergmann and Hugo Schmeisser quarreled very seriously because he transferred the right to manufacture MP.18 to the Swiss company ZiG, while the patent belonged to him, not to anyone, namely Schmeisser.

They broke up already in the 1919 year, and Bergmann began to cooperate with the Swiss, but Schmeisser, together with his relative Paul Koch, managed to found the company Industriewerk Auhammer Koch Co. She was engaged in the production of spare parts for bicycles and air rifles, but Schmeisser himself continued to develop promising models of submachine guns. In 1925, the Koch and Schmeisser venture went bankrupt, and they got a job at CGHaenel, owned by Herbert Genel (or Henel).

Meanwhile, the Reichswehr tested the MP28 / II submachine gun - an improved version of the MP18, which had a more technological design and a simple box magazine on the 32 cartridge. He had to compete with the Bergmann MP34 and MP35 submachine guns, but it turned out that the design proposed by Hugo Schmeisser was still more reliable and more efficient. The new model was immediately adopted by the German police, and its commercial sales began in Latin America and Africa, and was widely used in China, Spain, Belgium and Japan. It was used in a number of wars: the Gran Chaco war, the civil wars in Spain and China, as well as during the Second World War.

AR-15 of the Schmeisser company

Another historical shot ...


In 1932, Schmeisser and Genel joined the NSDAP, a step that was completely understandable, and testifying to the fact that both of them very well understood that Hitler’s coming to power promises military orders and new profits. And so it happened. As soon as Hitler discarded all the limitations of the Versailles Peace Treaty, the money flowed into their pocket.

All the pre-war years, Schmeisser continued to do what he liked: he designed the MK.34 / III submachine gun with a wooden box from the 98K carbine and the 1936 model of the year, which already had a folding stock.


Schmeisser submachine gun MK.36, III.


Hugo Schmeisser had nothing to do with the MP38 and MP40 submachine guns - their designer was Heinrich Volmer, an engineer from Erma. Volmer even sued Schmeisser because he used a number of its structural parts in his 1936 machine gun of the year, and Schmeisser lost this process.


Bergman M39 submachine gun


Schmeisser submachine gun also happened to fight!


But in the 1941, Schmeisser created the MP41 machine gun in which the plastic console of the bolt box, the metal folding butt and the pistol grip were replaced with a wooden box with the usual butt from his MP.28 / II. MP41 was also able to shoot with a single fire, and due to some increase in weight and size, as well as due to the presence of a strong stock, it became more convenient for infantry to use it. Including them to fight in hand-to-hand combat. But despite all its advantages, the MP41, although it was released in a small amount, did not supplant the old submachine guns.

And he created the famous Sturmgever!


Then Schmeisser created his most famous design: an automatic (assault rifle) Stg.44. It was one of the first small arms development to be adopted for special intermediate cartridges (the first, many experts consider the American M1 carbine to be the first). The contract with Schmeisser for its creation was concluded in April 1938, but only in April 1942, its first samples were submitted for testing. In 1943, the machine passed military tests and was called MP43. Then it was renamed MP44, and then, finally realizing that the new weapon was shooting a much more powerful cartridge than a pistol, they gave the name Sturmgewehr, (Stg) - that is, an “assault rifle”. Produced in the amount of almost half a million copies of Stg.44 was used at the final stage of the war, but for it was constantly lacking ammunition - cartridges 7,92 × 33. Then, after the end of World War II, another successful development of Schmeisser was carried out in various countries of the world, including Argentina, the USA, China, Yugoslavia, Turkey and Czechoslovakia. He fought in Korea and Vietnam, found use in various local conflicts, and in Latin America the police of many countries still use it, since there are enough cartridges for him now. In West and East Germany, after the war, this machine gun was used until the seventies of the last century, but only spare parts and cartridges were produced for it, since the machine guns themselves were taken from stocks of wartime.


MP44 chambered 8x33 mm. (Swedish Army Museum, Stockholm)


Schmeisser in captivity


When fascist Germany was defeated, Genel’s factory was redesigned at the request of the Soviet commandant to produce consumer goods, and, in fact, people weren’t interested in hunting rifles then. Nevertheless, in 1946, she was still allowed to produce and sell hunting weapons. But Hugo Schmeisser himself was “taken prisoner”, that is, they offered to work in the USSR for good money, where he was taken away in the autumn of that year along with other German gunsmiths. He was supposed to work at the Izhevsk Machine-Building Plant. Documents about the stay of the Germans on Izhmash were classified, hence all the speculation that the Kalashnikov assault rifle is the brainchild of Hugo Schmeisser. In fact, he did not really try to work there. He prepared a sketch of a submachine gun under the 9-mm "Luger cartridge, a couple of minor projects, and most importantly, what he was doing there was" consulting on the design of models of infantry small arms. "


Feature on Hugo Schmeisser written in Izhmash in the fall of 1951



A sketch of a submachine gun under an 9-mm cartridge, made by Schmeisser for the Izhevsk Machine-Building Plant in November 1949.


He worked a little for the Bolsheviks and ... enough!


In the characterization that the party organizer of the plant wrote in 1951 in 44 in the year 1947, it is reported that “it did not bring any benefit during his stay”, that he was unfamiliar with the secret works of the plant, which means that he was not involved in the development of the latest Soviet small arms and out of the question. In general, involving him in cooperation with the Soviet side turned out to be a “shot idle”. Slave is not a pilgrim, and that’s it. Although yes, indeed, the sector stores Stg.XNUMX and AK XNUMX are very similar in appearance. However, outwardly similar, in general, are hammers and all aircraft, since this similarity is determined by their functionality.

Hugo Schmeisser was only allowed to go home to Germany in the summer of 1952, and a year later, on 12 of September, he died in a hospital in Erfurt, at the age of 68.

The right marketing is all over the head!


And then in our days there were smart people who thought that the name Schmeisser is a great brand and why not use it? T. Hoff and A. Schumacher, who owned the Waffen Schumacher GmbH on shares, did just that - they created the new Schmeisser GmbH. It is located in the city of Krefeld, not far from the famous Belgian city of Liège - the forge of European small arms. And if their former company was engaged only in wholesale sales of finished weapons and various weapons accessories from different manufacturers, but now they are engaged in its production.

Here, of course, a lot depended on marketing, that is, choosing the best model for the market. And they decided to produce the American AR-15 rifle, and for several segments of consumers at once: those who are involved in sports shooting, for hunting, and also for police units. Prior to this, the AR-15 rifles were imported into Europe from the United States and Great Britain, but these supplies did not fully satisfy the market. Marketing analysis showed that it is profitable to produce them in Germany, focusing on traditional German quality in their advertising, and this is what partners decided to play on!

Moreover, and this is the most important, no special changes were made to the AR-15 design. Both rifles and carbines based on it work according to the direct gas extraction scheme, that is, powder gases act directly on the bolt without any intermediate parts, and they fall into the receiver through a long tube placed above the barrel. Well, the breech of the barrel, like the base model, is locked by a rotating shutter.

The cocking handle of it is quite traditional T-shaped, and, as in the original image, is located in the back of the receiver, above the level of the butt. When shooting, it remains stationary. And also on the right side of the receiver there is a characteristic device - a bolt rammer so that the shooter can be able to close it manually in those cases when it did not close due to clogging or due to insufficient force of its return spring.

Conveniently, the window for ejecting spent cartridges is closed with a special spring-loaded anti-dust curtain, which then opens automatically when the shutter is cocked. The main difference between the German AR-15 trigger mechanism is that it has a single action, that is, these rifles cannot fire bursts. Only single shots. Sights can be mounted very different, depending on the model, and there can be a lot of options for their installation on weapons. Again, it is interesting that the trunks - the most important part of the weapon are not made by Schmeisser GmbH, but by Lothar Walther. However, not only the barrels, but also all the details of the Schmeisser AR-15 rifle (both large and smallest) are also made to order and drawings by numerous third-party manufacturers, and the Schmeissers at their plant only assemble ready-made samples.

Moreover, all Schmeisser AR-15 weapons fully comply with the latest NATO standard “Mil Spec”, with 100% interchangeability of all its parts with rifles and carbines of this type already manufactured. The receiver uses the durable aluminum alloy 7075 T6, and it is of the same quality as the materials used in military weapons. The shutter is made of the best Thyssen Krupp steel. At the same time, forgings are used with minimal tolerances using Schmeisser GmbH's own equipment. The forging process is carried out in such a way that the compaction of the surface and internal structure of the metal occurs to the same extent. Hence the excellent quality of all the parts, even if the company works mainly in the civilian market.

The assortment range of the company consists of a dozen AR-15 variants, which are produced under three-caliber cartridges: .223 Rem, .222 Rem and 9х19 mm. The main differences are in the length of the barrel and its mounting options. Well, this is understandable, because the design of the rifle is based on the development of J. Stouner. And all its advantages and disadvantages, and it is known - this is both low reliability and great demand for care, along with lightness and compactness, migrated to all Schmeiser models. However, company representatives say that its engineers managed to cope with most of the shortcomings, not only through the use of new technologies (for example, better materials and a “slippery” coating), but also through minor, at first glance, structural changes. So the slogan of the company "Made in Germany" is by no means an advertising cliché. By the way, it is possible to buy the products of this company today in Russia too, there would be money, but if you just order and pay, you will be sent immediately by mail.


AR-15 M5 - carbine with a barrel 425 mm. Telescopic, four-position butt. Forend immediately with four Picatinny rails. The receiver is made of aircraft aluminum, and the entire upper and lower forend, as well as the side surfaces, are Picatinny rail guides. The kit includes a removable carrying handle and an 10 magazine for plastic cartridges. You can buy 20 or even 30-charging stores. Installation of a standard plastic forend is possible. Caliber .223 Rem (standard) or .222 Rem (customer choice)


AR-15 M4 - an analogue of the American carbine M4, with a barrel length of 374 mm



AR-15 A4 - a sample with a barrel length of 508 mm. "Classic" butt from M16A4



AR-15 S4 - carbine with barrel length 267 mm



AR-15 S9 - a submachine gun under the 9-mm "Luger" cartridge. In the receiver there is an adapter for box magazines for pistol cartridges. Barrel length 267 mm. Model AR-15 S9 Carbine. This is the same submachine gun all under the same 9-mm "Luger" cartridge, but with a barrel length of 425 mm



AR-15 M5F - Schmeisser AR-15 M5, but has a free-hanging trunk. Has a Picatinny rail. Butt and pistol grip - adjustable



AR-15 Ultramatch - a rifle for target shooting, with a freely suspended match barrel length 425 mm or 508 mm. The stock is permanent. Standard forend can be replaced by a cylindrical



AR-15 Ultramatch STS. Barrel - stainless steel length 508 mm or 610 mm


AR-15 Solid 1 is a self-loading rifle of the new series, which was issued taking into account the requirements of the law for army and police forces. The main feature of its design is that the upper bar of the receiver is made at the same time with the forearm, which is why it also has such a name - Solid (that is, a monolith). The attachment of the butt, and, accordingly, the attachment at the junction of parts of the receiver, are reinforced. The barrel length can be both 425 mm and 374 mm. AR15 Solid 2 is a civilian version of the same army rifle. But the upper bar is detachable.


AR-15 Dynamic 1 / 2 - a very light example of AR-15



Color sniper rifle


To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
CZ 805 A1 / A2. No worse than the good old "Bren"
48 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. svp67
    svp67 13 September 2019 18: 07
    11
    In the suburb of Yekaterinburg, the city of Verkhnyaya Pyshma, there is a museum "Fighting Glory of the Urals", which has already been written about on VO more than once, and so in the covered pavilion on the third floor there is a stand dedicated to the Kalashnikov assault rifle and there are shown side by side the dismantled AK and "Sturmgever", to clearly show their differences. For greater clarity, I would also put the disassembled M16 next to it, so that it would be more clear who borrowed from whom.
    And honestly, I don't care now whether Hugo Schmeisser contributed to our AK or not, he was our "trophy" and worked where he was told ...
    1. bunta
      bunta 13 September 2019 18: 19
      0
      The AK uses Schmeisser's solution for one of its developments. Who says what, that prize.
      1. karabas86
        karabas86 15 September 2019 14: 45
        0
        Shutter latch laughing
    2. Simargl
      Simargl 13 September 2019 22: 09
      0
      Quote: svp67
      there is a stand dedicated to the Kalashnikov assault rifle and there are shown side by side the disassembled AK and "Sturmgever" in order to clearly show their differences. For greater clarity, I would also put the disassembled M16 next to it, so that it would be more clear who borrowed from whom.
      AK at Stg. 44? ... a fly? But Stg.44 in SVT-38, probably, a shutter?
      M16 at Stg. 44 the idea of ​​a tipping frame and a depraved spring in the butt?
      1. karabas86
        karabas86 15 September 2019 14: 49
        0
        Above wrote - a latch.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 15 September 2019 21: 01
          0
          It's like in a Mosin rifle - design elements of a Mauser store. So, Mosin licked / stole "everything" from Mauser?
          1. YOUR
            YOUR 15 September 2019 23: 30
            +3
            Correct, not Mauser, but Nagant's clip. Because of this, in the west they carefully call the Mosin-Nagan rifle. And the fact that there are a bunch of M1911 clones with their own names are quietly silent about the fact that after the war Spain began to produce Stg.45 (M) under the name CETME A, B, mod 58, C, it’s okay for no reason.
    3. YOUR
      YOUR 15 September 2019 23: 24
      +1
      I'm not writing about the Jewish Galil or the South African futuristic Vector. This is next to the AK. For clarity, whoever pulled off someone else can be SVT-49, and next to the Belgian FN FAL.
  2. kalibr
    13 September 2019 18: 11
    +1
    Quote: svp67
    he was our "trophy" and worked wherever he was told ...

    That's it!
  3. bunta
    bunta 13 September 2019 18: 17
    +8
    There were no patents for the MP-18 and they did not "belong" to Schmeisser.
    Mr. Shpakovsky, if you publish copies of the documents that I published in my articles, maybe it would be worthwhile to read the articles themselves more carefully?
  4. kalibr
    13 September 2019 18: 24
    0
    Quote: bunta
    which I published in my articles, maybe it would be worth it if the articles themselves were read more carefully?

    What for? When do we have one source - the Internet? And I'm the same mister as you caballero ...
    1. bunta
      bunta 13 September 2019 19: 35
      13
      Quote: kalibr
      When do we have one source - the Internet?

      This is the Internet for you as one source, but I have copies of documents from the Izhmash archive (which you copy here), books by Mosharski, Mürvang, Heindrich and others. Do you know what annoys me the most? I have already seen several compilations from my articles on Schmeisser and AK, AR. If they are posted on little-known sites, then God be with them, but when on the same site with a visit of several tens of thousands, an article is published using data that I spent several months or even more searching and processing, and even with a distortion of their interpretation, this does not allow to maintain simple peace of mind and silence. I received exactly the same amount for my article that you concocted in one evening. Although I spent on it an order of magnitude more time, including personal funds for the accurate translation of some German tests. I hope that at least in the final part you will place links to those sources from where you scooped your information and copies of documents.
      1. kalibr
        13 September 2019 20: 19
        -2
        We all have articles that take a lot of time, effort and money. The issue is the novelty, which is checked by the editors. If her level of site rules does not violate, then what is it? And I, too, spent a lot of time and effort on photocopying archival materials about the Mosin rifle, and I don’t suffer at all that others use it later. Do you use the Advego-Plagiarism program? She very well helps to make popular materials for mass publications. If the archival materials you found are so dear to you, then it makes sense to write a book on their basis and publish them in that quality. And about the links ... all that concerns his biography is Wikipedia, which has undergone a literary edition, why not, and everything that concerns AR-15 is taken from the company's website.
        1. bunta
          bunta 13 September 2019 22: 43
          +8
          Quote: kalibr
          as for his biography, this is Wikipedia, a literary editor,

          What is written in the wiki about HG is a mixture of speculation (for example, about the use of MP-18 in Operation Michael (it's strange that you didn't mention it)), plus some facts from the biography drawn from articles by Shaidurov and Kulinsky. And they, in turn, took them from the same work by Mosharsky. Well, I put my hand - removing the word "outstanding" before the word "designer". As for the Mosin rifle and your costs for it, I keep in my heart your knowledge of ballistics and derivation in particular. And the fact that you do not complex about the use, so I do not, but I would like to see links to my work at the end of your opus. So that readers who have not read my opuses would have the opportunity to learn an alternative point of view on the personality of HG and the value of his "contribution" to world history.
          1. kalibr
            14 September 2019 06: 10
            -3
            I agree with you, Andrei, that it is very difficult to find real facts and not myths. But 90% of the information on the web is rewriting information from each other. And do not try to sarcastically. It was a question of the Mosin rifle for photocopies of documents, you understand that, it has nothing to do with conducting. I repeat once again - everything related to Hugo's biography is taken from the English-language Wikipedia - there is more information there. Starting with the sub-chapter "Marketing is the head of everything" - the translation of information from the company's website began. As for the "pictures" from the documents, I also found them on the web. Your articles somehow did not catch my eye, that's all. Don't like using them? Write to the editor and have them thrown away. That's all.
          2. karabas86
            karabas86 15 September 2019 14: 51
            +1
            By the way, there were links on the resource where the author had already expressed similar claims, though when writing a candidate.
    2. regulus
      regulus 14 September 2019 21: 52
      +3
      This is called plagiarism.
    3. PilotS37
      PilotS37 16 September 2019 07: 26
      +2
      Quote: kalibr
      What for? When do we have one source - the Internet? And I'm the same mister as you caballero ...

      But I-no copyright does not cancel! If you used someone else’s text, be so kind as to arrange the links in the text: where, what, and from whom you borrowed. And you can run into a lawsuit.
      And then the address "mister" will seem like a sweet dream to you ...
  5. Nitochkin
    Nitochkin 13 September 2019 18: 33
    +1
    Not so long ago, there was a series of articles on what kind of designer he was.
    No. No, again the old hackneyed record went about Hugo the Magnificent.
  6. Pavel57
    Pavel57 13 September 2019 18: 37
    +1
    From the GDR, a large consignment of Stg. 44 came to Syria, where it fought for some time.
    1. svp67
      svp67 13 September 2019 18: 39
      +1
      Quote: Pavel57
      From the GDR, a large consignment of Stg. 44 came to Syria, where it fought for some time.

      Actually, they got there from Czechoslovakia, where they were released during WWII
      1. Pavel57
        Pavel57 13 September 2019 18: 41
        -1
        This is another party))) - from the GDR, where it was armed with the police.
    2. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 14 September 2019 06: 18
      0
      Why some time? This rifle is still fighting there.
    3. Speedy
      Speedy 16 September 2019 12: 52
      0
      Syrian landing forces used to arm them.
  7. Undecim
    Undecim 13 September 2019 18: 51
    +1
    CGHaenel, owned by Herbert Genel (or Jaenel).
    Herbert Hinel.
    1. PilotS37
      PilotS37 16 September 2019 07: 33
      +2
      Quote: Undecim
      CGHaenel, owned by Herbert Genel (or Jaenel).
      Herbert Hinel.

      In German (and the company was German), the diphthongs "ae", "oe" and "ue" were used to denote umlauts. Then we switched to dots, as in Russian "e". "Ae" = "ä", pronounced in Russian as "e". He is Hanel.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 16 September 2019 08: 10
        +2
        Just now, after reading your comment, I saw that I wrote "and" instead of "e". Error.
  8. Catfish
    Catfish 13 September 2019 18: 51
    +3
    Italian "Villar-Perosa" M1915.
    He is Revelli.



    The sample in the picture is intended for installation on armored trains and armored vehicles.

    Here is his submachine gun called MP18


    It was called the MP-18 Bergmann, named after the manufacturing manufacturer Theodor Bergman.

    And Papa Louis himself is the author of several patents for self-loading pistols. I could be wrong, but it seems that he also had an aircraft machine gun.

    Thank you Vyacheslav, for a long time there was nothing here and the word "weapon" is already covered with dust. smile hi
  9. kalibr
    13 September 2019 18: 53
    +1
    Quote: Nitochkin
    No, again the old hackneyed record went about Hugo the Magnificent.

    And didn’t he do the MP-18 too? And Sturmgever ...
    1. Nitochkin
      Nitochkin 13 September 2019 19: 23
      +1
      "The MP-18 used two patents, issued in the name of Hugo Schmeisser, but in fact they were a rewrite of Browning's patents - the use of a return spring as a combat spring and the use of recoil to reload weapons. Like the vast majority of mechanical engineering products, the MP-18 was a compilation of parts from other designs and systems: a pistol cartridge, a wooden stock, a barrel and a magazine from Luger, the principle of automation is the recoil of a free breechblock. Even the protective cover on the barrel was “elegantly” “borrowed” from machine guns. And that's all! genius "of Schmeisser's design, one cannot fail to mention the absence of a safety lock for the bolt in the front position. Thanks to this simplification, a shot from the MP-18 could be fired by the method of Comrade Sukhov. The bolt was put on the safety lock in the rear (combat) position, designed as a figured cutout in the bolt casing familiar to everyone from the prototype of the usual window latch. "
      Links: https://topwar.ru/40021-hu-iz-gerr-shmaysser.html
      https://topwar.ru/40059-hu-iz-gerr-shmaysser-prodolzhenie.html
      https://topwar.ru/40078-hu-iz-gerr-shmaysser-okonchanie.html

      Is it not enough for the Great? Ah, yes, Sturmgever is a masterpiece of design thought!
      "In love psychiatry, the phenomenon is known when the object of adoration is endowed with some positive qualities or supernatural properties, which in fact do not exist. A similar phenomenon is inherent in weapon fetishism. For example, from the magical powers of" Excalibur "(the sword of King Arthur) to" advanced ergonomics "Sturmgewera."
      Link: https://topwar.ru/52156-shturmgever-i-santehnika.html
      1. bunta
        bunta 13 September 2019 22: 45
        +3
        Quote: Nitochkin
        MP-18 used two patents in the name of Hugo Schmeisser

        Forced to admit his mistake, these were patents issued by Bergman. I took this information from Kulinsky and did not double-check. I repent.
  10. kalibr
    13 September 2019 18: 54
    0
    Quote: Undecim
    Herbert Hinel

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  11. kalibr
    13 September 2019 20: 11
    +1
    Quote: Nitochkin
    Is it not enough for the Great?

    For the first design, not just a lot, but just right - just to the point of genius. And then - it’s very difficult to do, but it’s very difficult to do! So do not try to belittle what is good just because the author is German. ALL PP grow out of this design!
    1. Nitochkin
      Nitochkin 14 September 2019 14: 17
      -1
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Nitochkin
      Is it not enough for the Great?

      For the first design, not just a lot, but just right - just to the point of genius. And then - it’s very difficult to do, but it’s very difficult to do! So do not try to belittle what is good just because the author is German. ALL PP grow out of this design!

      Just to genius - this is when it is simple, but it works flawlessly.
      Hugo the Great did it simply, but to disgrace.
  12. Undecim
    Undecim 13 September 2019 21: 27
    +7
    And then it was he who invented and embodied something completely epochal in metal - a short quick-fire carbine that fired pistol cartridges, that is, the first submachine gun in the history of mankind.
    At the same time, Theodor Bergmann and Hugo Schmeisser quarreled very seriously because he transferred the right to produce MP.18 to the Swiss company ZiG, while the patent belonged to him, not to anyone, namely Schmeisser.
    These two sentences contain at least four controversial statements, firmly established through the Internet.
    The first is that the MP-18 was the first in the world. No one anywhere has proven with certainty who is "first" - the Beretta Model 1918 or Bergmann mp18. Therefore, if you don't even count the Villar Perosa-Revelli Mod. 1915, the MP-18 claims to be the first, but it has not been documented anywhere.
    The second is that Hugo Schmeiser MP-18 did it himself. There is a lot of literature devoted to Hugo Schmeisser and his activities, in which the fact that the MP-18 was designed by a “group of comrades” that included Theodor Bergman, Louis Schmeisser and other technical specialists, including Hugo Schmeisser, is repeatedly encountered. L. Rottman in The Book of Gun Trivia: Essential Firepower Facts
    categorically claims that the MR-18 was developed by Louis Schmeisser.
    The third and fourth - about Hugo Schmeisser's patents on MP-18 and his quarrel with Bergman. No one has ever seen these patents. Although there are even much earlier patents of his father.
    There were some disagreements about patenting between them. But not about the MP-18 as a product as a whole.
    1. bunta
      bunta 13 September 2019 23: 06
      +5
      Quote: Undecim
      No one has ever seen these patents.

      I have seen. :)
      The Beretta Model 1918 at 3 of the month was previously patented. If Bergman’s patents are at my fingertips, then according to Italian I firmly do not promise to provide evidence. Although it may be time to search.
      As for Luis Schmeisser, even when he worked for Bergman, he attached stocks to his pistols. You refer to Rottman, and one friend told me that his friend saw such a carbine with his own eyes. We have two sources, so the version of Louis’s authorship is quite the place to be :)
      Schmeisser really wanted to produce MP-18, but since he had the patents for Bergman, he didn’t succeed, so he changed the spring (there was a patent for it), attached a translator and broke the scope by kilometer. It turned out MP-28.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 13 September 2019 23: 27
        13
        When I wrote "no one has ever seen", I did not mean patents in general, but patents in the name of Schmeiser on the MP-18 in general. That the Bergman patents are quite logical. The fact that the Beretta Model 1918 claims to be the first, I learned for the first time from the Beretta workers, communicating with them in Brescia. Unfortunately, I didn't think of documentary evidence to ask for.
        In general, writing articles for VO-type sites is a peculiar activity. You can spend a month or more time, shove through a lot of literature and, as a result, get devastating comments on the mountain, which are given with an indisputable tone by local "authorities" who are far from understanding the issue. And you can copy and paste the sludge from the network and get wild delights. Most of the site authors have followed this path.
  13. Disorder
    Disorder 13 September 2019 23: 00
    +3
    And then it was he who invented and embodied something completely epochal in metal - a short quick-fire carbine that fired pistol cartridges, that is, the first submachine gun in the history of mankind. In fact, from a formal point of view, this machine was second, since the first was the Italian Villar-Perosa M1915. However, in the original version it was a real machine gun, moreover, with a shield and two barrels, designed to equip airplanes and only then literally accidentally fell into the infantry.

    Villar-Perosa M1918

    In any way, Schmeiser is the second.
    But in 1941, Schmeisser created the MP41 machine gun pistol, in which the plastic console of the bolt box, the metal folding butt and the pistol grip were replaced with a wooden box with the usual butt from his MP.28 / II.

    That's just the MP-40 was not created by Hugo. So, MP-41 is pure plagiarism.
  14. bunta
    bunta 13 September 2019 23: 13
    +6
    Schmeisser in captivity

    Schmpeisser was neither a combatant nor a non-combatant. The concept of "captivity" does not apply to designers. :)
    1. kalibr
      14 September 2019 06: 17
      -2
      Quote: bunta
      Schmpeisser was neither a combatant nor a non-combatant. The concept of "captivity" does not apply to designers. :)

      Sergei, are you not blind? "Taken prisoner" is given in quotation marks, isn't it? Which underlines the relative meaning of this phrase. You don't need to cling to little things, but if you cling, then be more attentive.
  15. kalibr
    14 September 2019 06: 27
    -1
    Viktor Nikolaevich, you are right as always. Bunta, which is Sergey, has published 2011 articles on the site since 36. And there are people who have published 3000 in less time. And the site must be updated three times a day. And who should you rely on in this situation? In the morning, at 15.00 and at 18.00, materials with different topics are needed. We need novelty! And where to get it? In fact, the new information today is ... an eyewitness report from the scene. "I see it that way." Everything else is rehash of someone's earlier materials + own comments to them and 1,2 new facts miraculously obtained and introduced into mass circulation. And also taken from somewhere, by the way. Just unknown 90% of readers. Which, again, every day require something new. So they get it. Another weapons site has recently opened. There the requirement of novelty is 90%. But this is "literature", not facts that no one really has! This is the reality of online journalism, there is nothing you can do about it.
    1. bunta
      bunta 14 September 2019 08: 57
      +8
      Riot, which is Sergey, with 2011 th
      Andrey, actually. Well, if it was enough to count my articles, then do not see the name of the author ...! You write articles with the same attention.
      1. kalibr
        14 September 2019 09: 02
        0
        Sorry for that. Indeed, I look at the text and read ... more.
  16. kalibr
    15 September 2019 11: 31
    -1
    Quote: Nitochkin
    simple, but to disgrace.

    And for some reason everyone copied it?
    1. Nitochkin
      Nitochkin 15 September 2019 12: 12
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: Nitochkin
      simple, but to disgrace.

      And for some reason everyone copied it?

      "Subtle" allusion towards Kalashnikov?
      1. kalibr
        15 September 2019 22: 07
        +1
        They copied a submachine gun, huh?
  17. karabas86
    karabas86 15 September 2019 14: 48
    +2
    The author, according to his old habit, did not miss the opportunity to spit in the USSR, this is the only way to understand the passage about the post-war use of a successful development, well, he cannot, so as not to throw In his own homeland, it happens. - "Ah yes glory ah yes ***** son."
  18. kalibr
    16 September 2019 07: 28
    +1
    Quote: karabas86
    By the way, there were links on the resource where the author had already expressed similar claims, though when writing a candidate.

    Do you know what I am doing to such claims expressed by the junior scoops of the sewage truck?