Military Review

Sword. Scotsman's national weapon

149

Highlanders on the march. Painting by Robert A. Hillinford (1828-1904)


Goodbye, my homeland! North, goodbye -
Fatherland glory and valor edge.
By the white light we drive fate,
Forever I will remain your son!
Robert Burns. In the mountains my heart


Weapon from museums. To begin with, the article "The main weapon of the cuirassier" aroused great interest of the readers of "VO", and they, naturally, immediately asked me to continue this topic. And it is not easy to continue it, since the only broadsword available to me personally was kept behind the glass of the showcase of the Penza Regional Museum of Local Lore, and I personally could judge all the others only by their photographs and brief (very!) Descriptions on the websites of several museums. However, patience and work will grind everything, so in the end I managed to hold this sword and get acquainted with unique specimens of broadswords from the Museum of Lower Parks in Hamilton, which is located in the Scottish county of South Lanarkshire. The museum is very interesting, although not very large. The bulk of the exhibits presented in the museum are the collection of the former Cameron (Scottish Riflemen) regiment of the British army. The regiment was formed on May 14, 1689 and named after Richard Cameron, Lion of the Covenant, Scottish preacher who died at the Battle of Aires Moss in 1680. And today we will tell our story about some of the weapons displayed in it, as well as about broadswords in general.


Schiavona. 1680-1720 Top "cat's head" with an unidentified mark, oval basket-handle with a ring for the thumb. The basket itself is made up of an intricate series of flat stripes that emerge from a common root at the base of the handle and span the arm diagonally. The unidentified stamp was applied to the handle three times. Straight double-edged blade with a short fuller and an unknown brand in the form of a "rosette" at the end of the fuller. Overall length: 1062 mm. Total weight: 1134 g Blade length: 914 mm. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

Let us first turn to stories appearance. Let's start with the Schiavona, an Italian broadsword with a basket handle. Her ancestor was the swords of the Doge's Guard, with which she armed herself in the XNUMXth century. It is believed that they got their name because of their crosshair in the shape of the letter "S". Another feature of them was the tops in the shape of a square with corners slightly elongated to the sides. There are a lot of such swords in the collection of the Arsenal of the Doge's Palace in Venice, and looking at them, you understand where such tops came from on the Schiavons.


Another Schiavona from Leeds, 1781. Note the intricate pattern of the guard grill

The Italians also produced swords with very twisted guards. And then it occurred to someone to combine the sword blades of the Doge's Guard with the twisted guards of the swords of the Venetian nobleman. And it may very well be that this is how the Schiavon broadsword was born. The fact that the word "Schiavona" is translated as "Slavic" in fact means absolutely nothing, because none of the Slavic peoples in 1570, when they began to arm the horsemen of the German imperial cavalry with such broadswords, simply did not possess them. Later, all other swords with a basket handle in the Venetian style began to be called so. Under Ferdinand II, a Schiavona about 90 cm long began to arm German cuirassiers.

Sword. Scotsman's national weapon
Lower Parks Museum building in Hamilton

At the beginning of the next century, this broadsword came to England, where it was widely used during the Civil War, and then also to Scotland and Ireland. But in Scotland, the shape of its guard began to differ significantly from the Venetian samples. So, it became more round, in comparison with the guard at Schiavona, and the pommel of the square became spherical, in the form of a flattened ball. The arcs cover the hand almost entirely, and, of course, one cannot fail to notice the lining made of red leather or velvet fabric. The width of the blade is about four centimeters, the length is 80. The blades had one blade, but double-edged blades for Scottish broadswords are still the most characteristic.


A handle basket without a blade, found on the thatched roof of the Drumlogg cottage in January 1928. As you can see, the shape of its arms is complex and whimsical, and speaks of a considerable imagination of the one who made this "basket". Lower Parks Museum in Hamilton, South Lanarkshire Council



A broadsword of the "dead sword" type with a "funeral handle". The blade with a double-edged blade has two wide lobes and along the edges of the ricasso with a triple lobe extending in the center of the blade from the ricasso within 12 cm. Both edges of the blade are strongly serrated, and the point is worn and rounded. The handle is in poor condition, parts of the guard are missing, especially on the right side. The wooden handle above the shank is still present. This sword dates from the mid-1600th century (1649s) and is one of two swords brought from Craig's farm (near Sandford). The farm was transferred to William Cochran in XNUMX and was previously owned by Sir Robert Hamilton of Silvertonhill. The broadsword may have belonged to a member of the Cochran family and is typical of the style used by both government and Covenant forces in the mid to late XNUMXth century. Lower Parks Museum in Hamilton, South Lanarkshire Council



And this is his handle in close-up!



Another broadsword with a "funeral handle". The blade is single-edged, with a double-edged end to the point (one and a half sharpening). Both the blade and the hilt are severely corroded, but traces of chiseled parts are still visible on the hilt. The edge of the blade is serrated in several places, the tip is worn and rounded. This sword also comes from Craig Farm, near Sandford. Lower Parks Museum in Hamilton, South Lanarkshire Council

As it was reported in the previous material, in England "dead swords" became fashionable, that is, broadswords, named because of the human head depicted on their guard, allegedly the head of Charles I, which, however, is not confirmed by anything. But if in England the broadsword became a weapon of heavy cavalry, as it happened everywhere, then in Scotland in the 192th century, firstly, it supplanted the national sword - claymore, and secondly, it became a weapon of the wealthiest strata of the Scottish highlanders. That is, a very, very status weapon, not only for horsemen, but first of all for infantrymen! So, after the Battle of Culloden, government troops captured only 1000 broadswords as trophies, and this despite the fact that more than XNUMX Scots were killed there. Well, over time, it was a broadsword with a basket handle that became a status weapon of officers, non-commissioned officers and pipers of the Scottish regiments. Moreover, it was used by them even during the First World War.


"The Deceased Sword", dated 1631-1670, by Andrea Ferrer. Overall length: 102,2 cm. Blade length: 85,8 cm. Weight: 1219 g. Royal Arsenal, Leeds



A broadsword with a blade by Andrea Ferrer (length 106,5 cm) is a typical Scottish broadsword with a basket-shaped handle. The blade has two short symmetrical ricasso valleys, above which is another short, shallow fuller. Along the valley is written the name "Andrea" on one side of the blade and "Ferrer" on the other. These names are marked with stars and curved lines on either side. Handle in the form of a basket with patterns in the form of circles and arrows. On the top of the guard, at the base of the blade, there are letters RC inside a heart-shaped recess. The handle is wooden, under the guard is a disc of thin leather. This sword is reputedly worn by Baronet Crawford at the Battle of Drumlogg on June 1, 1679. Rauford was killed in the battle, and his sword was picked up by a member of the Fleming family who lived nearby. It was then passed on through marriage to the Bryson family of Lochgate. It was owned by William Bryson when he served as special constable after the Strathhaven uprising of 1821, using a baton instead. The grip is apparently not original to this blade, as its style is more associated with the mid to late 1700s than the late 1600s. Ephesus is also marked with the letter RC inside the heart. This mark is attributed to Robert Craig of Glasgow, who was a Freeman of the Hammerman Corporation in 1721. Lower Parks Museum in Hamilton, South Lanarkshire Council



Another basket handle. Lower Parks Museum in Hamilton, South Lanarkshire Council

Since the industry in Scotland was not very good at that time, the blades for Scottish broadswords were often altered from the outdated or already out of order two-handed claymore swords of the 92,3th-1680th centuries. Blades of high quality came from Europe (and mainly from Italy or from Germany), but Scottish armourers made a specific shape of a basket-like guard locally. For example, in Glasgow and Stirling, where there are even several varieties of similar guards, noticeably different from each other. The most famous among the manufacturers of blades for Scottish broadswords is considered to be the Italian master Andrea Ferrera, whose name has become synonymous with their high quality. In the Lower Parks Museum in Hamilton, there is a typical broadsword blade of the famous manufacturer Andrea Ferrera (although it is quite rusty). It is double-edged, XNUMX cm long, with a central lobe on both sides, with two shorter lobes at the shank. The inscription "Andrea Ferera" is engraved on both sides of the blade with semicircular patterns, crosses and dots. It is the broadsword blade of Henry Hall, a famous Covenant * who died in South Queensferry in XNUMX.


Broadsword of 1863. Lining in the "basket" made of red felt, red tassel on the top. Ephesus can be removed to be replaced with another. Weight 1,38 kg. Blade length: 80,0 cm. Belonged to an officer from the Queen's Cameron Highlanders regiment. Steel scabbard. Lower Parks Museum in Hamilton, South Lanarkshire Council



His blade

From the beginning of the XNUMXth century to the present, it is the highland broadsword that has been the ceremonial weapon of the officers of the Scottish regiments of the British Army and the armies of the British Commonwealth of Nations. And two swords are also an integral attribute of the Scottish Sword Dance!


Modern replica of a Scottish broadsword that can be bought today like everything else!

In general, this traditional sword of the highlanders has sowed fear in the hearts of the British for centuries. Its long, double-edged blade and distinctive basket handle, combined with shield and dagger, has proven to be more than a suitable hitting option for enemy soldiers on battlefields around the world.

PS For comparison, consider this broadsword, ours, Russian, of Catherine's times, with a characteristic monogram on the guard, from the exposition of the Penza Museum of Local Lore. There are many differences, and they are fundamental. The blade is single-edged, the crosshair is simple, with a "wing", but a massive convex blind cup-guard is attached to it for the back of the hand. That is, from this side to the hand, neither the bayonet nor the edge of the enemy's blade will simply break through.






This is his grip ...

The bow of the guard is straight, like that of Polish sabers, the pommel is in the form of an animal head. But an interesting detail is visible on the handle: a massive thumb ring. So the grip of this sword is very strong, and the thumb is also protected from a blow from the left.

The broadsword could not be weighed, but it did not seem heavy to me, especially the blade. His grip felt heavier. Obviously, hitting the face with such a "cup" was simply stunning!


Actor Liam Neeson in a kilt and a broadsword in the movie "Rob Roy", well, a typical Scotsman!

PSS Personal thanks to Mike Tylor of the Lower Parks Museum in Hamilton for his kind permission to use the museum's photographs and related information.

* The Covenanters are supporters of the 1638 National Covenant, a manifesto of the Scottish national movement for the Presbyterian Church.
Author:
Articles from this series:
The main weapon of the cuirassier
Rondashi in battles, parades and on the walls
Rondash and rondachiers. From benefits to beauty
Artillery of the conqueror of Europe
Artillery innovations of the civil war between North and South
Mortars "Dictator" in the battles of the North against the South
Shuvalov's "secret howitzer"
North and South: smooth-bore and rifled guns
US Civil War ammunition
The most popular caliber of the North and South
Cannons of Tredegar and the Noble Brothers
Cannons of Brooke and Viard
James and Sawyer cannons: rifled versus smoothbore
"The parrot gun." Man and his instrument
Faceted bore gun
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  1. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 15 October 2020 18: 08
    +6
    We never tire of thanking Vyacheslav Olegovich for interesting articles. I will probably soon be written down as a personal sycophant. laughing
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 16 October 2020 09: 58
      +4
      Probably, they will soon write me up as personal sycophants.

      You will be extreme. The rest have already been recorded. wink drinks
      In connection with the topic of the article, how not to remember the Battle of Culloden - the last battle in the British Isles!

      Fighting highlanders against the "redcoats"! angry And many - with broadswords.

      Thanks to the author for the article, and for the work done, in general. drinks
    2. Normal ok
      Normal ok 16 October 2020 12: 31
      0
      Articles from Vyacheslav Olegovich really, - the main Caliber fellow Thank you.
  2. polpot
    polpot 15 October 2020 18: 09
    +6
    Thank you very much for the article and wonderful illustrations.
    1. kalibr
      15 October 2020 19: 39
      +8
      Yes, I had to work hard for them, and ask the British for permission ... But what's good: the British, as a rule, never refuse help. And they do not require filling out a bunch of papers, scanning them, signing them, scanning them again and sending them back. That's where the bureaucracy is. It's the same with the Austrians: "allow" - "please"! Conveniently! Italy and France are where to be mistreated. The first is 50 to 50, and the second is "with ends." Although the museums of Florence answered me ...
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 October 2020 19: 48
      +7
      Just joining all the comments above and below !!!
      Special thanks to Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      Regards, Vlad!
      Ps How good it is when there is no slop on the forum. All good evening or night, as it happened.
  3. CTABEP
    CTABEP 15 October 2020 18: 11
    +6
    Yes, such a cup in the face - like brass knuckles, or even worse, due to the mass of the handle and pommel.
    Thanks for the next article).
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 15 October 2020 18: 22
      +4
      I guess it happened very rarely. All the same, cavalry weapons
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 October 2020 19: 52
        +5
        Quote: CTABEP
        Yes, such a cup in the face - like brass knuckles, or even worse, due to the mass of the handle and pommel.
        Thanks for the next article).

        Quote: Icelord
        I guess it happened very rarely. All the same, cavalry weapons

        The broadsword is still not only a cavalry weapon, but also a personal naval officer in a number of countries. By the way, it was considered boarding in Britain, Holland and Russia. So getting a hilt in the nose is much higher in a boarding fight than in a horse fight!
        hi
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 05
          +4
          All the same, only Soviet cadets of naval schools had a naval sword. And in the days of boarding katlases mostly. Although the officer's naval saber of the late 19th century can be called a broadsword. But do you really think she was fought? hi
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 16 October 2020 10: 01
            +1
            And in the days of boarding katlases mostly.

            I read somewhere (it seems, on a freshly frozen Warhead) that a slight distortion was allowed in the Soviet translation of Treasure Island. In the description of melee weapons, it is written that the heroes (and pirates!) Had daggers, but in fact Stevenson wrote about the cutlases. I should have looked at the English text ... drinks
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 16 October 2020 10: 06
              +1
              You are right, I also read this article. Looks believable. It seems in the comments there was
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 16 October 2020 10: 14
                +1
                You are right, I also read this article. Looks believable. It seems in the comments there was

                here, and I think too. which is believable. It is a pity that I did not visit the site yesterday evening and did not see this article. Forum - shine! drinks
  4. Icelord
    Icelord 15 October 2020 18: 19
    +7
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, we made you happy. By the way, the thumb ring is called "palukh"
    1. kalibr
      15 October 2020 19: 20
      +7
      Quote: Icelord
      By the way, the thumb ring is called "palukh"

      I didn't know. Thank you!
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 15 October 2020 19: 24
        +4
        You're welcome
  5. Icelord
    Icelord 15 October 2020 18: 26
    +4
    And what's more, the Russian broadsword in your illustration is a copy of the Austrian one, and under Elizabeth the first batches were ordered there. Stick and guard Hungarian type
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 October 2020 20: 02
      +4
      Question!

      Image of one of the famous domestic broadswords (prince Skopin-Shuisky). The hilt is completely missing the bowl, which in the described article is the basic elements of the broadsword. Combines Only a straight blade with one side sharpening. Variety or Evolution?
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 10
        +7
        This is a Persian broadsword, has no relationship to Europe. Other traditions
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 October 2020 20: 14
          +5
          But the most important thing is still a broadsword!
          Thanks for the clarification. hi
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 28
            +4
            Always glad to help, Vladislav drinks
      2. hohol95
        hohol95 15 October 2020 22: 15
        +3
        At first they considered him Turkish. Then they came to the conclusion that he was Persian. Godunov had 4 sabers of Persian origin.
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 15 October 2020 23: 41
          +2
          It is true, but some weapons experts still consider it Turkish, there the blade is the same, either Russian or Western European, later replaced, in such a rich frame a chic damask blade should be. I just explained briefly. And the thing is really interesting, I stuck in due time
  6. Hunter 2
    Hunter 2 15 October 2020 18: 33
    +6
    Great Article, thanks to the Author! I have the good fortune to keep several Broadswords in my personal collection, their very appearance inspires respect! Although - Broadswords completely lose to Sabers in combat properties! And already in the middle of the 19th century they became more of a Ceremonial Weapon.
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 15 October 2020 18: 40
      +7
      This is how to say, I personally own a broadsword better. And they are different sabers. It's hard to compare Shamshir and Patton's saber
      1. Hunter 2
        Hunter 2 15 October 2020 18: 54
        +4
        I mean that the melee weapon passed mainly to the Cavalry! Well, the chopping properties. Broadswords - inferior to Sabers.
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 15 October 2020 18: 59
          +4
          But in the end we came to the conclusion that it is better to prick. Therefore, Patton's saber is considered the pinnacle of edged weapons ... but too late. By the way, the checker also lost its chopping function due to the piercing
          1. Hunter 2
            Hunter 2 15 October 2020 19: 12
            +3
            This dispute has been going on for more than 200 years, the West has traditionally preferred stabbing blows - the East is chopping, the saber is an example of a "universal" weapon, let's agree that we are supporters of different theories! About the saber, in fact, I did not write a word at all, it is an independent type of cold steel. I think you are wrong about checkers! Actually, even an exercise with it (checker) is called - Chopping!
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 15 October 2020 19: 18
              +5
              Well, of course, the main blow is chopping, cavalry weapons, after all, but read the charter of R.I. chop right, chop left
              1. Icelord
                Icelord 15 October 2020 19: 21
                +5
                And here's another for those who confuse the wheelhouse with the mythical Cossack flanking

                [/ihttps://zen.yandex.ru/media/armshistory/liubiteliam-flankirovki-posviascaetsia-general-dragomirov-o-mahanii-shashkoi-1897-god-5ee70d2d7cadb75a66e4c913
          2. Catfish
            Catfish 15 October 2020 21: 25
            +4
            Igor, hello! hi I am almost a complete layman in a cold place, and therefore the question to you is: "Patton's Saber", is it not named in honor of the "great commander" George Patton? Extremely interesting to know. smile
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 15 October 2020 21: 26
              +4
              This is not another Patton
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 15 October 2020 21: 29
                +4
                Thank God, otherwise George is so "great" that he does not fit in his mind. laughing
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 15 October 2020 21: 34
                  +4
                  Below I wrote a lie to you unintentionally request
              2. Icelord
                Icelord 15 October 2020 21: 31
                +4
                He lied, he just himself did not think that he was so versatile. And the first swordsman of America also got into the book. Sorry recourse
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 15 October 2020 21: 45
                  +4
                  ... America's first swordsman.

                  A cavalryman and the first swordsman ... Now it is clear where he got such a talent for commanding an army, such as Semy Budyonny's laurels. But Stalin immediately realized that Budyonny did not see the difference between a mare and a tank, and immediately removed him from the front further away, but Eisenhower, no matter how he wanted and dodged, could not get rid of George. laughing
                  1. Icelord
                    Icelord 15 October 2020 21: 51
                    +3
                    But the saber is really good
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 15 October 2020 21: 55
                      +4
                      Of course, I'm not arguing. smile
  7. BARKHAN
    BARKHAN 15 October 2020 18: 34
    +4
    Thanks to the author hi
  8. Gato
    Gato 15 October 2020 18: 44
    +3
    And yet, following the accepted (including the official) terminology - this is a sword on the basis of 2-edge. Broadsword broadsword. In this case, I am a supporter of the approach to the classification of weapons, voiced by K. Zhukov - i.e. by the properties of the blade, and not by the type of handle, pommel and guard.
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 15 October 2020 18: 46
      +5
      Are you talking about schiavona? Yes, it is usually considered a sword, but in Russian weapons science can be called a broadsword
      1. Gato
        Gato 15 October 2020 18: 53
        +4
        No, I'm talking about the so-called. Scottish broadsword. Moreover, I was not able to find information about blades of a purely Scottish make - most often we are talking about alterations by local craftsmen of German Zweikhanders, Italian and Spanish 2-blade swords. Well, one more thing: a broadsword is traditionally a cavalry weapon, and Highlanders on horseback are like sailors on zebras.
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 15 October 2020 18: 57
          +6
          Well, the Scottish broadsword (it is still incorrectly called claymore) is a separate song. And yes, he is more likely an infantry, but it just so happened that he is considered a broadsword
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 15 October 2020 21: 28
            +5
            ... it is also incorrectly called claymore ...

            It's funny - you have Claymore and then Claymore. smile
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 15 October 2020 21: 35
              +4
              Your inhumane
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 15 October 2020 21: 40
                +4
                Igor, he is not mine, he is "theirs".
                True, I'm not sure that ripping open a stomach with a cold weapon is somehow more humane than simply and immediately turning a humanoid into minced meat. But in aesthetics, this box certainly loses even to the "police herring". smile drinks
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 15 October 2020 21: 48
                  +3
                  One general Napoleon was slashed in the head with a saber 12 times. Survived. True, he went crazy a little later, but not the fact that because of this
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 15 October 2020 21: 57
                    +4
                    Hmmm, so go and figure out what will be better - just a kirdyk, or a straitjacket in old age. request
                    1. Icelord
                      Icelord 15 October 2020 21: 58
                      +3
                      No, he came out of the window at a height. Read Jean Junot. Interesting, really
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 15 October 2020 22: 11
                        +4
                        Thank you, read it. What was the name of this general?
                        For the Americans, Defense Secretary Forrestal, too, "came out of the window" for the same reason and unsuccessfully - in a blot. smile
                      2. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 October 2020 22: 12
                        +3
                        Jean Junot was his name, and he was frostbitten before the injury
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish 15 October 2020 22: 16
                        +4
                        Well, he was a general in combat, not a ceremonial shaker. Thanks for the information, Igor, I'm going to hang up, happily. soldier
                      4. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 October 2020 22: 18
                        +3
                        See you, good luck hi
                      5. Catfish
                        Catfish 15 October 2020 22: 24
                        +4
                        And you heartily too. smile
                    2. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 16 October 2020 10: 07
                      +3
                      No, he came out of the window at a height. Read Jean Junot. Interesting, really

                      Juno "The Tempest", who never became a Marshal ... "The Tempest" is a nickname. Yes, I went out the window in a fit of headache.
                      From Wikipedia - this is he in the form of revolutionary troops in 1792.
  • Icelord
    Icelord 15 October 2020 18: 48
    +7
    Sorry, sat on my hobbyhorse request
    1. Gato
      Gato 15 October 2020 19: 03
      +5
      And I, in general, too repeat
      1. kalibr
        15 October 2020 19: 51
        +5
        Good forte, however. I would be so ... in the sense of broadswords!
        1. Gato
          Gato 15 October 2020 20: 04
          +4
          I would be so ...

          Yes, it would look good on the carpet. Not to go for beer with him. Although...
  • Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 19: 02
    +5
    I don't like our museum workers. They love to spoil rare items with their silly inventory numbers. And sometimes the blades are drilled, and they can shove them backwards into the sheath, or sign it incorrectly.
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 15 October 2020 19: 05
      +5
      This is me with you completely in solidarity
      (a rare case by the way wink )
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 19: 10
        +5
        Quote: Icelord
        This is me with you completely in solidarity

        At all specialized forums, they are scolded for such an outrage. And rightly so. Himself sucks when you see how they spoil unique things.
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 15 October 2020 19: 43
          +3
          https://warhead.su/2020/07/10/muzeynye-lyapy-kogda-etiketka-porazhaet-bolshe-chem-eksponat
          Read about attribution in museums. You will be interested
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 20: 11
            +4
            Quote: Icelord
            Read about attribution in museums. You will be interested

            Yeah, and the comments are interesting. The system is crooked, and no one itches to fix it.
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 12
              +4
              Shield to do request
      2. kalibr
        15 October 2020 19: 24
        +5
        On my porcelain beer mug (a photo of it was in the material about food in the USSR), there is a number with special ink. So ... was in the museum for sure. And now here I am! That is, the value is undeniable!
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 19: 48
          +4
          Quote: kalibr
          On my porcelain beer mug (a photo of it was in the material about food in the USSR), there is a number with special ink. So ... was in the museum for sure. And now here I am! That is, the value is undeniable!

          Or maybe she was in the departmental canteen? laughing In our techie, I remember exactly, there were numbers on the trays. Yes, and I saw it on my mother's plates at work.
          1. kalibr
            15 October 2020 19: 50
            +3
            Museum cipher. And the photo was in an article about food in the USSR. You can see. Things are never so safe in the canteen.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 20: 01
              +3
              Quote: kalibr
              Things are never so safe in the canteen.

              But in warehouses there are. 10 years ago I worked at a state-owned enterprise, and often climbed through warehouses there. I remember a completely new-old samovar for 50 liters. With the number drawn. I asked the storekeeper: "He's been standing here for a hundred years!" And I grabbed some kind of device there. Also with a number, 60s, but the safety of the wooden case where it was lying is practically zero. I am really underdone, what this device was needed for. Although at the very least I understand electronics.
              1. Gato
                Gato 15 October 2020 20: 26
                +3
                I am really underdone, why this device was needed. Although at the very least I understand electronics

                It was
                heuristic machine, that is, an electronic-mechanical device for solving engineering, scientific, sociological and other problems ... and inside it has a neon
                (C)
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 21: 01
                  +4
                  Some kind of highly specialized control device. In general, I rummaged in my memory, I remembered that practically all government offices had inventory numbers. On furniture in hotels and hospitals, on office equipment, on machine tools. So there is a high probability that Comrade Caliber simply stole this mug in some regional committee. Or in a sanatorium. laughing
                  1. Gato
                    Gato 15 October 2020 21: 17
                    +3
                    comrade Caliber simply stole this mug

                    Well, let's not indiscriminately accuse Comrade Caliber of petty theft. I also have porcelain dishes with German stamps from 1940 in the kitchen. Let's consider the mug a trophy ... of the class struggle lol
                  2. Gato
                    Gato 15 October 2020 21: 23
                    +4
                    Some kind of highly specialized control device

                    In ancient times, there was one highly specialized device at the department of TOE of the Kiev Polytechnic University. It was a body with one big red button and the inscription "Do not include!" He stood in the room where laboratory studies were carried out. Many years later, his secret was revealed to me: the button was simply connected to the counter of clicks. Guess what was the counter reading and what was the name of this device laughing
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 21: 57
                      +2
                      Quote: Gato
                      Guess what the meter reading was

                      A lot of! fellow
                      Quote: Gato
                      what was the name of this device

                      Button nosy, I guess.
                      Quote: There was a mammoth
                      The habit was to snatch a glass from a pub.

                      These are all consumables, like forks in a restaurant. Or towels in hotels.
                    2. ANB
                      ANB 15 October 2020 23: 25
                      +4
                      ... and what was the name of this laughing device

                      Durometer?
                      1. Gato
                        Gato 16 October 2020 08: 40
                        +1
                        Nearly. "Counter d.r.r.a.k.o.v". The number on the counter was about 80 thousand.
                  3. Was mammoth
                    Was mammoth 15 October 2020 21: 34
                    +4
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    So there is a high probability that Comrade Caliber simply stole this mug in some regional committee. Or in a sanatorium.

                    I had a friend. Kingdom of heaven! The habit was to snatch a glass from a pub. What a collection it was!
                    When the author is engaged in his business, does not philosophize, I see the benefit for the "plebs". The "scoop" itself wink
                    PS I am convinced again. You can learn a lot in the comments!
                  4. Icelord
                    Icelord 16 October 2020 00: 20
                    +2
                    So why did he surrender to you, this incomprehensible device? It would be better if the samovar was privatized
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 16 October 2020 00: 29
                      +3
                      Not allowed. And so it would make a good moonshine still. 50 liters all the same. And I took the device purely because of its case-case, a beautiful infection, varnished. He kept the instrument there.
                      1. Icelord
                        Icelord 16 October 2020 00: 31
                        +2
                        Eh ... for 50 liters ... however
                      2. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 16 October 2020 00: 35
                        +2
                        Quote: Icelord
                        Eh ... for 50 liters ... however

                        I am from near Tula, such samovars were made especially for canteens.
                      3. Icelord
                        Icelord 16 October 2020 00: 37
                        +3
                        I have not seen such samovars. I presented a moonshine still, I only saw one like this at a beekeeper, out of a 50 liter flask
              2. kalibr
                16 October 2020 07: 16
                +1
                Do not judge by yourself!
        2. Icelord
          Icelord 15 October 2020 23: 58
          +2
          I saw a mug, you can't whistle like that in a canteen. That's right. And the stamp is put when the walls are still soft. Then the mug itself is formed. Before firing
  • Gato
    Gato 15 October 2020 19: 11
    +5
    You shouldn't be talking about museum workers. To work for such salaries, you have to be fanatics in a good way. And an exhibit with an inventory number is more difficult to sell. Apparently this is how they fight temptation wassat
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 19: 16
      +4
      Quote: Gato
      To work for such salaries, you have to be fanatics in a good way.

      I completely agree about salaries, but whoever wants to will change half of the museum. And such things are gathering dust in the storerooms that their visitors never see. In the 90s, in general, foreigners roamed about museums like at home, buying up everything and everyone for next to nothing.
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 01
        +4
        It’s you in vain, in our TWR Quo museum, I bought everything laughing
  • Catfish
    Catfish 15 October 2020 21: 21
    +4
    Okay, Volodya, in my department they only drilled the trunks of the rifled groove, and that heart was bleeding, and after all, the Office was rummaging around to us for checks, and it was a criminal case. The Deer almost killed me when he found out that I drilled an American M3A1 .45 caliber barrel with a 2-mm drill - he didn't care about that hole. And to nail numbers to the boxes - God forbid, well, drill the blade, but we didn't even have such freaking out in the militia to demand that. So you're wrong, my friend. hi drinks
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 21: 32
      +4
      I thought you would answer. Nevertheless, on the knife forums came across a photo from a museum with a drilled blade. Or with an inventory number directly on the handle. Reluctance to seek this indecency. It’s our heart bleeds, but there were also full reinsurers on the principle that something didn’t work out.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 15 October 2020 21: 36
        +5
        These are either cops, or museums on the periphery, or both combined. In Soviet times, strict regulations existed, we, by firearms, violated as best we could, so as not to completely disfigure the weapon, and got away with it.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 15 October 2020 21: 45
          +2
          And I'm not saying that you are. Small museums suffer from such garbage.
      2. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 15 October 2020 21: 59
        +3
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        Nevertheless, on the knife forums came across a photo from a museum with a drilled blade. Or with an inventory number directly on the handle.

        Dad renewed the registration of the gun. Named. The ancient grandfather came. He heard, however, that the weapon must be registered. Only in the 70s. wink Half a century after the Civil. He brought a Mauser with a nameplate on it.
        The cops drilled the barrel. Desecrated the hero's weapon. As I remember, I want to spit! The old man was offended.
        PS Then my father's gun hung on the wall without any safe And he sent his brother to the North (he was assigned there) by mail to his son. On the way back, my brother was in the plane with a gun and flew with ammunition .. The pilots sent him when he wanted to give them to them during the flight.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 16 October 2020 03: 36
          +3
          Quote: There was a mammoth
          Then my father's gun hung on the wall without any safe.

          My grandfather, dad, and three uncles on my father's side owned one gun for all. Just like the rolling banner of labor shock workers. They took turns with him. I don't even know where it ended up.
      3. Gato
        Gato 15 October 2020 22: 06
        +4
        heart bleeds

        Not that word. Mauser with a drilled barrel looks even sadder than Venus de Milo with her hands broken off. Barbarians, no words, only meanings ...
    2. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 16 October 2020 10: 56
      +2
      The Deer nearly killed me when he found out that I am an American M3A1 .45 caliber

      Is this "grizganu", Uncle Kostya? hi
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 16 October 2020 13: 57
        +2
        Yeah, to him, dear, smile
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 16 October 2020 14: 00
          +2
          Aha, to him, dear

          I’m even ashamed to guess how much of which of the firearm you overexposed in your hands ... winked
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 16 October 2020 14: 13
            +2
            To be honest, much less than we would like. And the cartridges were not for everything ... request
        2. Icelord
          Icelord 16 October 2020 14: 36
          +1
          And this is the modification, where why was the handle removed from the shutter? That's a stupid economy, you can break a finger for two cents sad
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 16 October 2020 15: 47
            +1
            Yes, this is M3A1. And the modification is not at all stupid, they removed the extra part, which, if the sand got there, could always fail, simplified and made the design cheaper.

            A finger can be broken by picking at the nose. smile
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 16 October 2020 16: 22
              0
              No intellectually, I understand that the oil can is a simple and effective design, but it's kind of miserable request
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 16 October 2020 16: 43
                +1
                I had a chance to shoot from it. He hits in short bursts very accurately and does not twitch in his hands, i.e. no "wretchedness" is felt during operation. We had this p / p in our department, new and in perfect condition, taken as a trophy after the battle at Playa Giron in 1961 and donated by the Cubans to Marshal Sudets for organizing air defense on the island. The Marshal subsequently handed him over to our museum, and we took him to the All-Russian Forensic Science Research Institute and from the bottom of our hearts we shot at their shooting range. (I've written about this before). I really liked the machine.
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 16 October 2020 17: 56
                  0
                  I fired a tommy. But ... in a stripped-down self-loading version, so I didn't understand anything
  • Undecim
    Undecim 15 October 2020 19: 53
    +6
    First of all, let's turn to the history of appearance. Let's start with the Schiavona, an Italian broadsword with a basket handle. Her ancestor was the swords of the Doge's Guard, with which she armed herself in the XNUMXth century. It is believed that they got their name because of their crosshair in the shape of the letter "S".
    The name schiavona comes from schiavoni - this is how the Istrian and Dalmatian Slavs, who made up the main contingent of the Doge's Guard, were called in Venice.
    The fact that the word "Schiavona" is translated as "Slavic" in fact means absolutely nothing, because none of the Slavic peoples in 1570, when they began to arm the horsemen of the German imperial cavalry with such broadswords, simply did not possess them.
    But the sword with which the Doge's guards were armed and to which, according to your version, the guard of the Italian sword was fitted, was also called schiavona.
    1. kalibr
      15 October 2020 20: 11
      +4
      Quote: Undecim
      The name schiavona comes from schiavoni - this is how the Istrian and Dalmatian Slavs, who made up the main contingent of the Doge's Guard, were called in Venice.

      I read about it on Wikipedia, but nothing has been proven. Crosshair S is not the worst option!
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 22
        +2
        Well, it is believed that indeed the sword of the Dalmatian mercenaries, but I also doubt this version
      2. Undecim
        Undecim 15 October 2020 20: 31
        +6
        Crosshair S is not the worst option!
        This option is not only not the worst, Vyacheslav Olegovich, it is useless. It turns out that there was a sword called schiavona. And there was an Italian, as you say, a sword (although I am inclined to the fact that it was a rapier)

        They installed this beautiful hilt on the sword, already called schiavona, and began to think about what to call the new weapon. And then someone saw that the letter S was visible in the elements of the hilt! And the first word that came into the head of unknown armourers with the letter S, it turned out what - schiavona. Really amazing ?!
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 35
          +3
          Well, the letter S Viktor Nikolaevich is also stretched over the globe, but the Dalmatian mercenaries are not the same either
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 15 October 2020 20: 36
            +6
            Why don't you like the version with the Slavs? Argument.
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 37
              +3
              They have not recorded such swords
            2. kalibr
              15 October 2020 20: 38
              +3
              Mercenaries never liked anyone ... The dagger was called "five fingers"? Practical! Why was it necessary to "nod" at foreigners here? Italians are big, very big nationalists! And there were !!!
        2. Gato
          Gato 15 October 2020 20: 40
          +2
          I agree with my colleague Undecim. The name unambiguously refers to people from Dalmatia and Istria:
          Schiavone (pronounced [skjaˈvoːne]; feminine Schiavona, plural Schiavoni) is an Italian ethnonym literally meaning "Slovenes" in Old Venetian: originally, this term indicated origins in the lands of Dalmatia and Istria (in present-day Slovenia and Croatia), when under the rule of the Republic of Venice.
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 47
            +4
            Yes, this is the generally accepted version, but show me similar swords from the Slavs. The name is not an argument, the guard of the International Federation of Defense consisted of Dalmatians, but the Italian sword, but was named after the name of the guard. I think so
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 15 October 2020 20: 54
              +6
              This is not a "sword of the Slavs" and not a "Slavic sword". This is the sword of the Venetian guard, which was completed mainly from the Slavs. Can't you catch the difference?
              1. Icelord
                Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 56
                +4
                I catch it, that's why I say the Italian sword, and I got the name in honor of the mercenaries
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 15 October 2020 21: 02
                  +6
                  Well, you ask the Venetians why they revered the mercenaries so much.
                  1. Icelord
                    Icelord 15 October 2020 21: 04
                    +4
                    Italy, country of mercenaries request
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 15 October 2020 21: 07
                      +6
                      To understand the issue, you can look at the literature on the topic "Venice and the Slavs of Dalmatia".
                      1. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 October 2020 21: 11
                        +4
                        Viktor Nikolaevich is not trying to compare with erudition, is the sword still Italian?
                      2. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 October 2020 22: 06
                        +6
                        It was not by chance that I recommended you to look at the topic "Venice and the Slavs of Dalmatia". The importance for Venice of its possessions in Dalmatia, which inhabited Schiavoni, can be judged by the fact that one of the central streets directly opposite the Doge's Palace and St. Mark's Square is called Riva degli Schiavoni. As you can see, the street is Italian.
                        Therefore, it is not at all surprising that the weapons of these Schiavoni received their name.

                        Slavic militia (Schiavoni) in the service of the Republic of Venice, 18th century.
                        Actually, if you can suggest a different version, you are welcome.
                      3. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 October 2020 22: 11
                        +3
                        No version of the name is the same, I mean that the sword was invented and used in Italy, but in schiavoni as such, there is no, or only a second time
                      4. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 October 2020 22: 31
                        +5
                        If you speak English - http://myarmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html
                      5. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 October 2020 22: 36
                        +3
                        Eh, Viktor Nikolaevich, we have been arguing on this topic for many years. If it were so easy to decide
                      6. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 October 2020 22: 37
                        +5
                        What are we arguing about - proficiency in English?
                      7. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 October 2020 22: 38
                        +3
                        No schiavona yes... But humor appreciated
                      8. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 October 2020 22: 41
                        +3
                        You see how, not a Slavic sword never, but in Italian sources it is Slavic. Here is a dispute to believe the Italian numerous sources or artifacts
                      9. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 October 2020 22: 54
                        +4
                        You see how, not a Slavic sword never
                        This is from a kind of "Pan-Slavism" in their views - if it is Slavic, then all Slavs without exception should have such a sword, and archaeologists should dig them up everywhere from the Adriatic to the city of Musokhransk on the border of the tundra and forest-steppe.
                        And the option that the Slavs of Dalmatia, which was owned by Venice, could have some kind of endemic type of weapon - no, this is not for us.
                      10. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 October 2020 22: 55
                        +2
                        They could and had, but only for the second time. That is, it was introduced by the Italians
                      11. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 October 2020 23: 03
                        +4
                        Did I say somewhere that they were designed by the Slavs?
                      12. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 October 2020 23: 07
                        +2
                        Well, Duc I write the Italian sword, but it was used mainly by Dalmatian mercenaries who returned home and brought the design. Actually something like this
                      13. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 October 2020 23: 13
                        +4
                        On that and we will solve.
                      14. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 October 2020 23: 16
                        +4
                        I agree with you, just in my opinion it looks like the truth. But it is very hard to debate with you even in matters where I do not swim. My regards hi
                      15. Undecim
                        Undecim 15 October 2020 23: 19
                        +5
                        Constructive discussion in any case allows you to broaden your horizons.
  • kalibr
    16 October 2020 07: 22
    +2
    So this: in the arsenal of the Doge's palace in Venice there are a lot of swords with a characteristic pommel and S crosshair, but without a lattice basket for the hand. I had an article about this arsenal here and there is a photo of them. All the difference from the common European swords is only in this. We added a lattice guard and that's it! Why call the mercenaries by name?
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 16 October 2020 08: 48
      +2
      I think because these mercenaries were the guard of the Doge, and the sword of course is typically Italian and the development can be traced
      1. kalibr
        16 October 2020 08: 55
        +2
        I think so too. But there was no time for that ...
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 16 October 2020 09: 01
          +2
          I understand that you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, write about a lot, but I just dug for a long time on one topic of cold steel, otherwise, alas, a layman
        2. kalibr
          16 October 2020 09: 15
          +1
          Quote: Icelord
          and I just dug for a long time one topic of cold steel

          It is wonderful! I have always had great respect for people who "dig" for a long time. However, although I write about many things, I've been digging tanks since 1980, knights since 1995, samurai since 2000 ... Here are weapons ... cold and hot, yes, only from the moment I was present at the VO.
        3. Icelord
          Icelord 16 October 2020 09: 35
          +2
          So after all, I collect cold stuff, you won't be able to figure it out, but oh, what are not cheap things
        4. kalibr
          16 October 2020 10: 17
          +1
          Quote: Icelord
          So after all, I'm a cold collector

          !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Undecim
    Undecim 16 October 2020 09: 10
    +4
    Why call the mercenaries by name?
    Because all the sources that I managed to find agree that to the venetian-styled cross-hilted swords that you saw in the arsenal of the Doge's palace and which were called Espada Eslavona or Spada Schiavona, Slavic mercenaries attached the hilt in the form of a rapier basket. Oakshot, as far as I remember, too. It will be necessary to look further.
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 16 October 2020 09: 28
      +2
      The Lord alone knows who attached the basket, but that Slavic mercenaries used such swords, a fact
  • Gato
    Gato 15 October 2020 20: 56
    +2
    I have similar swords among the Slavs

    Why are there necessarily Slavs? In those places, the Hungarians also noted, and they had broadswords in use.
    1. Icelord
      Icelord 15 October 2020 20: 57
      +3
      Hungarian broadswords are completely different
    2. Icelord
      Icelord 15 October 2020 22: 49
      +5


      Here are the typical Hungarian broadswords
  • Icelord
    Icelord 16 October 2020 10: 21
    +1
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, in the last illustration to your article, Rob Roy has a typical Scottish pistol, so it would be great if you wrote about it. Exclusively original design, it is impossible to confuse
    1. kalibr
      16 October 2020 12: 37
      +2
      Yes, Igor, I know. And I have been aiming for this for a long time. The question is where to find a LOT of interesting information + photos of "public domain". As soon as I find it!
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 16 October 2020 13: 23
        +1
        I've read that one Russian Emperor was given such a pistol, but I forgot which one. Now I climbed in the books, I didn't even find
        1. kalibr
          16 October 2020 16: 15
          +1
          Igor - you will have an article, I promise!