Military Review

People and spades

169

Britannia. 17th Duke of Cambridge's own Uhlan regiment. End of the nineteenth century


The crowd will suppress a deep sigh,
And the woman's crying will end
When, puffing out fiercely cheeks,
The campaign will be played by the headquarters trumpeter.
Peaks will easily pierce the sky.
Stirrups will creak slightly.
And someone will move with a wild gesture
Yours, Russia, tribes.
Alexey Eisner


Military affairs at the turn of the eras. The pico, a long spear with a narrow tip, was the first in Europe to use the Scots in their shiltron formation to defend against the attacks of knightly cavalry. Then the pikes were used by the pikemen's infantry, but the riders were armed with it quite late, somewhere in the XNUMXth century. But she held out in the ranks of the cavalry until the very beginning of World War II! In Russia, whoever was not armed with lances, although traditionally the lance is considered a Cossack weapons... In 1801, the lancers received the peaks, as expected. Well, in the 1840s, the cavalry pike became the weapon of the first ranks not only in the Uhlan cavalry, but also in the dragoon cavalry, it was received by the hussars, and even the cuirassiers. However, today the story will not be about them, that is, our Russian pike cavalrymen, but about horsemen with pikes in Europe and America after the collapse of Napoleon's empire and up to 1918.

Last time, when it came to the participation of the American dragoon cavalry in the war with Mexico, some commentators noted the high efficiency of the Mexican cavalrymen, armed with pikes and also a lasso. So who were these horsemen, how many were there, and how did they act in battles?

To begin with, Mexico went to war with the United States, assuming that its larger army would certainly win, but things didn't go as planned. The American cavalry honed their combat prowess in conflicts with the Indians and were probably the most well-equipped and high-class cavalry force in the world at the time. Mexico, on the other hand, inherited traditional Spanish military doctrine, including many French features adopted by its officers after Napoleon's occupation of Spain in 1808-1813. Although the Spaniards themselves were expelled from Mexico in 1829, the army retained units called cuirassiers, hussars, lancers and dragoons. But it didn't work out to properly equip and arm them ...

Therefore, the cavalry was created, which most corresponded to local conditions, the so-called californios. In accordance with the rules of 1837, each regiment was ordered to have four squadrons of two companies in each. The composition of each company consisted of a captain, a lieutenant, two ensigns, a first sergeant, three second sergeants, nine corporals, two trumpeters, 52 mounted soldiers and eight dismounted soldiers. And in each such regiment, the first company of each squadron was to be armed with pikes - a weapon popular in the Mexican cavalry. These spears were made of beech or walnut, had a length of 3 m and three- or four-sided points 20 cm long with grooves. The lance barrel had a thickness of 3 cm. From firearms they had flintlock and primer pistols and old carbines. For example, a large number of Tower muzzle-loading muskets came from Great Britain, where their production and use was discontinued in 1838, but then resumed in Mexico.

In addition to the regular regiments, the Mexican army had 17 irregular and 12 independent presidial lancer companies. These companies, numbering from 50 to 60 people, were called so because they were located in the "presidio" (border forts). In 1846, on the San Diego to San Pasquale road, a 75-man Californian presidio engaged several companies of the 1st American Dragoon Regiment under the command of Colonel Kearney. The dragoons could not use their firearms, because the gunpowder was wet, so they had to fight with melee weapons and lost three officers and 15 soldiers, and the same number were wounded. Among the Mexicans, one lancer was captured and ten were wounded.

The Mexican command envisaged the creation of many such irregular companies, armed with pikes in case of war. The tasks of these units included reconnaissance, patrolling and striking enemy communications. In 1843, a division was formed, which received the name "Jalisco Spearmen". He had two squadrons, and the horsemen were dressed in the Polish manner. All cavalry historians note that the Mexicans were born horsemen and rode fine horses, with a lot of Arab and Spanish blood. Horses of this breed are still found in Mexico and are highly prized.


Mexican Californios 1848. Figure: from the book: V. Vuksic, Z. Grbasic. Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 650BC - AD1914. L .: Cassell, 1994. P.199

As for Europe, the restoration of royal power in France and the exile of Napoleon to the island of St. Helena did not bring her much peace. One of the decisions of the Congress of Vienna (1815) was the creation of the Kingdom of Sardinia (Piedmont), which also included the former Republic of Genoa. The House of Savoy soon lost its independence and became a vassal of Austria, but the desire for independence put Piedmont at the forefront of the struggle for the unification of Italy. From 1848 to 1866, with short breaks, the Italians fought three times against Austria, and its inhabitants did not shed their blood in vain: the small states of northern Italy were able to free themselves from the power of the Austrians and unite.

The French Revolution of 1830 raised great hopes among the Italian patriots of the Risorgimento. Accordingly, in Piedmont, the quality of the training of soldiers, especially in the cavalry, was immediately improved, and its reorganization was carried out, reflected in the charter adopted in 1833. In 1835, six cavalry regiments were transformed into two brigades: the 1st, consisting of the cavalry of Nice, Savoy and Novara, the second largest city of Piedmont, and the 2nd, consisting of the Piedmont Reale, Genoa Guards and the Aosta cavalry. The following year, the same six regiments were grouped into three brigades, and already in 1841 each of them had six squadrons, one of which was armed with pikes. In peacetime, the regiment numbered 825 people and 633 horses, in wartime - 1128 people and 959 horses.

It should be noted here that the beginning of the 1811th century in French art was marked by the rise of classicism, and it drew inspiration from Ancient Greece, the ideas of a free civil society, which also served as a model for the French Revolution. In the field of military technology, classicism found a vivid expression in the cavalry helmet, which was a copy of the ancient Greek samples. In 1815, such a ridge helmet was issued to the French line lancers and carabinieri; in 1833, the British Life Guards and Belgian Carabinieri; shortly thereafter, it was carried by almost all the heavy cavalry of Europe. The Piedmont charter of 1840 also provided for the use of such a helmet, and it was made in XNUMX by the court painter Palagio Palaggi and named "Minerva's helmet."


The Nice cavalry was armed with a heavy cavalry saber, two pistols and a very short carbine (essentially a long-barreled pistol). Riders with pikes in service, in addition, had a pike with a pennant in the form of a dovetail in blue - one of the Italian national colors. The uniform is simple but effective. Figure: from the book: V. Vuksic, Z. Grbasic. Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 650BC - AD1914. L .: Cassell, 1994. P.195

In 1848, upon learning of the revolution in Vienna, the inhabitants of Milan also revolted and drove the Austrian garrison out of the city, and Piedmont immediately declared war on Austria. The cavalry of Nice played a significant role in the battles of this war. A certain sergeant Fiora lost his horse and was surrounded by four Austrian lancers; he killed one with a lance, wounded the other, and chased the remaining two away, rushing after them. A similar feat was accomplished by Sergeant Prato, also surrounded by four Austrians, this time by hussars; he killed one and drove out the other three. Nevertheless, the campaign itself, which lasted a year, ended ... with the defeat of the Italians. Austrian rule over Lombardy and Venice continued. And Piedmont had to pay Austria an indemnity of 65 million francs.

Nearby, beyond the Bosphorus, in the Turkish army, as well as in the state itself after the Napoleonic wars, changes also began. So, under Sultan Mahmud II (1803-1839), a whole series of reforms was carried out in the Turkish army in order to make it similar in organization, training, weapons and tactics to the army of Western Europe. As a result, it was divided into regular forces (nizam), reserve (redif) and last call (mutahfiz).

The regular army served six years, and recruits were chosen by throwing the dice. Each young man was required to attend the roll of the dice several times a year, and if he was not selected within five years, he was automatically transferred to the reserve.

Since 1843, each regular cavalry regiment had six squadrons, and, in addition to rifles and sabers, the second, third, fourth and fifth of them were armed with pikes. The squadron consisted of 120 people; the whole regiment with headquarters numbered 736 people (and 934 people, if we also take into account the auxiliary personnel). In 1879, the number of squadrons was reduced to five per regiment, two regiments made up a brigade, three brigades made up a cavalry division. The cavalrymen were armed with American Winchester and Remington rapid-fire magazine rifles and inflicted heavy losses on Russian soldiers in the 1877-1878 war.

In 1885, a volunteer cavalry corps was created, called "Hamidiye Siivari Alayari" ("Sultan Hamid's detachment"). Its regiments included members of the same tribe and had serial numbers starting with one. They were called up for training every three years, and in other cases - only if necessary. Their people equipped themselves, and only weapons came from the imperial reserves. Since the warriors of the Hamidiye cavalry came from different tribes, the soldiers of each of them wore their own national costume, the Ottoman authorities chose the three most common national costumes and ordered that men wear one of them when they come to service. In addition, they also had to wear special tags with the name and number of their regiment on their clothes so that they could be distinguished from the general population.

In 1869, the Turkish cavalry consisted of 186 squadrons of the regular army and 50 volunteer regiments (20 Circassian, 30 Kurdish and Arab), and in case of war, auxiliary and irregular cavalry units (bashibuzuks) were to be called up. Auxiliary armies from Egypt, Tunisia and Tripoli were supposed to fight under the Turkish flag. In 1876, the auxiliary contingent from Egypt was ten cavalry regiments: four hussars, four dragoons, and two lancers.

Each of them had five squadrons of 122 people each.

Bashibuzuk can be translated as “sick in the head,” and the popular explanation for this term is based on the fact that in Ottoman Turkey, different races, religions, religious orders, classes and professions differed from each other mainly in headdresses. During the reforms in the army, uniforms of the European type were introduced, and the army and civil servants had to wear fez. All the rest were allowed to wear whatever they wanted, including on their heads, and the bashi-bazouks used this. About 10000 Bashi-bazouk cavalry from Asia Minor, Kurdistan and Syria took part in the Crimean War, where the British General Beatson attempted to transform them into a disciplined fighting force. But all his efforts were unsuccessful.


Nizam Turkish cavalryman of the late 650th century. Figure: from the book: V. Vuksic, Z. Grbasic. Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 1914BC - AD1994. L .: Cassell, 225. P.XNUMX

It is interesting that India, conquered by the British, also created its own armed forces, and their creation went in parallel with the colonial expansion. The first Indian troops were organized by the British East India Company soon after it established its first outposts in the country in the middle of the 1857th century. They consisted of European mercenaries and local residents, whose task was to protect trading posts. After the end of the Seven Years War in Europe, three armies were formed in India: Madras, Bombay and Bengal. Low wages, innovations that offend the religious feelings and ancient traditions of the indigenous people, and especially the social and economic changes brought about by British rule, have been the reasons for the frequent uprisings of Indian servicemen. The largest of these, known as the Indian Rebellion (1868-560) or, in Soviet historiography, the Sepoy Rebellion, led to the abolition of the East India Company and the introduction of dual rule. The provinces under direct administration made up British India, and the XNUMX Indian states were ruled by local princes who were vassals of the British crown and who often had to be disciplined by force of arms. How this happened was described very well by Rudyard Kipling in his novel "Kim". It is understood that during the mutiny all the regular and some irregular Indian regiments were disarmed.

In 1861, the Anglo-Indian Army was reorganized, after which a Fourth Army was formed in the Punjab. The Bengal army was purged and replenished with soldiers loyal to the British crown. Nineteen cavalry regiments, known simply as the Bengal Cavalry, were re-formed and numbered 1 through 19. Since these units were armed with pikes, their name was soon changed so that they were now all lancers.

At the beginning of the 1861th century, a soldier entering the army had to come with a horse, weapons and equipment. But after the reorganization of XNUMX, the government began to pay the regiments money according to the number of personnel for the purchase of uniforms and equipment. The irregulars paid more than the other regular regiments, but there weapons were the only thing the government gave out to the soldiers for free.

Interestingly, the Bengali cavalry regiments consisted of people of different races and religions, therefore, in order to avoid conflicts within the regiment, the squadrons were made up of representatives of the same caste, race or religion. They all wore the same uniform, but they were allowed to wear turbans that matched their religious preferences. So, in 1897, the 2nd Bengali regiment of the ulan had one squadron of Sikhs, Jats, Rajputs and Hindu Mohammedans each. And they all had turbans of different styles on their heads. At the same time, the Sikhs did not tolerate the Jats, considering them stupid buffaloes, and the Hindu Mohammedans - Rajputs, whom their religion made it a duty to drink wine and eat meat.


Bengal Lancer 1914. Figure: from the book: V. Vuksic, Z. Grbasic. Cavalry. The history of fighting elite 650BC - AD1914. L .: Cassell, 1994. P.231

Bengal Lancers took part in many British colonial campaigns, including Egypt in 1882 and Sudan in 1884-1885, as well as the First World War against the Germans on the Western Front and the Turks in the Middle East. The Bengal lancers were armed with a lance with a bamboo shaft and a square tip, a standard British light cavalry saber and Lee Metford carbines. An interesting feature was their shoulder straps, which were also used by the Uhlan regiments of the metropolis and were made of ... chain mail!

To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Rondash and rondachiers. From benefits to beauty
Artillery of the conqueror of Europe
Artillery innovations of the civil war between North and South
Mortars "Dictator" in the battles of the North against the South
Shuvalov's "secret howitzer"
North and South: smooth-bore and rifled guns
US Civil War ammunition
The most popular caliber of the North and South
Cannons of Tredegar and the Noble Brothers
Cannons of Brooke and Viard
James and Sawyer cannons: rifled versus smoothbore
"The parrot gun." Man and his instrument
Faceted bore gun
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  1. Free wind
    Free wind 11 September 2020 06: 36 New
    +8
    The Rajputs have a normal religion, religion obliges to eat meat and wine to drink. Cup holders on stirrups for spears, never seen before.
    1. cost
      cost 11 September 2020 23: 29 New
      +2
      Pikemen were not only equestrian; perhaps the most famous are the Swedish caroliners.
      The "new charter of the Carolinian infantry of Charles XI" of 1694 read:
      “If the battalion commander orders: 'Get ready!', Then the pikemen raise their pikes, moving forward until he [the battalion] is 70 steps closer to the enemy. As soon as it is ordered: “Two back ranks, get ready for the fire!”, These ranks move forward and double the two front ranks. As soon as the two rear ranks have fired a shot, they draw their swords. And as soon as the two front ranks have moved forward, the two rear ranks are closely linked from the rear with the two front ranks, after which the entire battalion marches in such a closed formation in depth and width in rows towards the enemy until the battalion is 30 steps closer to him. Then the command is given: "Two front ranks, get ready for the fire!" As soon as the shot is fired, they draw their swords and rush into the enemy ranks. "
      The method of attack prescribed by the Carolinian infantry gave a much lesser role to firing than to the use of knives. Indeed, according to this statutory prescription, each musketeer must receive 2,6 liters of beer and had to make one single shot before hand-to-hand combat and then act exclusively with a sword or bayonet. Let us add to this that the pikemen - a third of the battalion - had no weapons other than cold ones.

      a photo. Reconstruction of the Swedish Carolinian pikemen

      fig. Swedish Caroliners Karl XII:

  2. Finches
    Finches 11 September 2020 06: 39 New
    +8
    Interesting article! Eisner reminded me of the famous, especially in England, light cavalry attack at Balaklava and Tennyson's poem:

    ... Through the line of the Russians under the sweeping of the blades,
    Hundred Cossack
    Letting go.
    And then, knowing the anger of the shock regiments,
    We rushed back
    But not six hundred.


    I like the line that much less Anglo-Saxons jumped back ... laughing
    1. kalibr
      11 September 2020 06: 58 New
      +5
      Quote: Finches
      much less Anglo-Saxons

      What a bloodthirsty you are. Killing on the battlefield is the most ineffective thing ... A consequence of a lack of mind. Other methods are much more effective. And the Chinese, the same Sun Tzu, knew this 2000 ago. And he told ... but people read, but did not even think to apply. Which badly characterizes people as thinking beings.
      1. Finches
        Finches 11 September 2020 06: 59 New
        +5
        It may be ineffective, but honest and decent, worthy of respect!
        1. kalibr
          11 September 2020 07: 02 New
          +4
          Murder can be neither honest, nor decent, nor worthy of respect. Although it can be justified, if not you attacked, but attacked you. And again ... it is ineffective. "Dishonest" methods are much more effective and the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is not violated!
          1. Finches
            Finches 11 September 2020 07: 08 New
            +7
            This is war! And it has its own rules - it has nothing to do with murder in the alley!
            1. kalibr
              11 September 2020 07: 15 New
              +4
              Without any doubt. But we are not talking about murders in the alley. It is murder anyway. You just need to know the weaknesses of people and use them. Everyone has a skeleton in their closet, something secret that they fear. In a word, you can always make a person "do everything by himself" and you don't have to kill him.
              1. Finches
                Finches 11 September 2020 07: 18 New
                -1
                I disagree! It remains to recall the sacramental from the frantic Vissarionovich: "If there is a person, there is a problem, if there is no person, there is no problem!"
                1. Svetlana
                  Svetlana 11 September 2020 07: 28 New
                  +7
                  Quote: Finches
                  I disagree! It remains to recall the sacramental from the frantic Vissarionovich: "If there is a person, there is a problem, if there is no person, there is no problem!"

                  Myth. Stalin did not say that. That is the phrase he said in one of Rybakov's works of art. The phrase is clear and beautiful, and it was transferred from the virtual space of literature to the real one.
                  1. Finches
                    Finches 11 September 2020 07: 33 New
                    +1
                    Yes, I do not insist and do not assert, but I personally really like this capacious phrase and it absolutely fits the image of the Leader!
                2. kalibr
                  11 September 2020 08: 50 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Finches
                  I disagree! It remains to recall the sacramental of the frantic Vissarionovich: "There is a person, there is a problem, if there is no person, there is no problem!"

                  Another thing is much more reasonable: there is a person, but there is no problem. Can kill and. It will help to make a hero out of the murdered ... And new people will avenge him. And the way Vissarionich died shows once again that he was not a very smart person, that is, he did not understand everything and the worst thing about people. Quality is unforgivable for a leader! Therefore, we will not listen to him!
                  1. Blue fox
                    Blue fox 11 September 2020 09: 39 New
                    +8
                    Vyacheslav Olegovich, here you are writing about
                    how Vissarionych died once again shows that he was not a very smart person, that is, he did not understand everything and worst of all in people.
                    Well, following your logic, do not repeat his mistake when you write on a site called "Military Review" -
                    Murder can be neither honest, nor decent, nor worthy of respect. Although it can be justified, if not you attacked, but attacked you. And again ... it is ineffective. "Dishonest" methods are much more effective and the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is not violated!
                    ... You see, often in a war, in this case, the enemy is wounded or mutilated so much that he loses combat capability and begins to demand resources to provide him with assistance, rehabilitation, etc. As with antipersonnel PMN, killing, as a rule, will not kill, but it will cripple for life. Well, so-so humanism. So those who know about the war only by hearsay and write
                    Killing on the battlefield is the most ineffective thing ... A consequence of a lack of mind.
                    they also do not understand something. It is necessary to write about the prevention of an open conflict on a political or diplomatic website, you yourself know that "when diplomats fall silent, guns start talking."
                    As for your articles, you squeak beautifully, your hand is full and interesting to read. It is quite easy to miss your complexes about the past life of a lecturer of the CPSU who changed shoes in a capitalist fashion. Whatever one may say, your old school of conjuncture is excellent. You have the right.
                  2. cost
                    cost 11 September 2020 22: 35 New
                    +3
                    Military affairs at the turn of the eras. The pico, a long spear with a narrow tip, was the first in Europe to use the Scots in their shiltron formation

                    Are they Scots?
                    What is the difference between the Argos phalanx of King Fidon - the so-called. "Enomotic", which became the same for all ancient Greek city-states, from the Macedonian phalanx-"saria" of Tsar Philip II, thanks to which he crushed almost all these city-states?
                    That's right - armed with sarissi
                    Fig. Macedonian phalanx-saria

                    The main weapon in close formation was the sarissa, the Macedonian name for the long spear, but when storming the fortified positions of the sarisaphora, they fought with spears of ordinary length and threw javelins. Polybius describes the sarissa as follows: the shaft is 14 cubits (6.3 m) long, taken with both hands so that the tip protrudes 10 cubits (approx. 4.5 m) from the fighter. Elian the Tacticus repeats Polybius' information, but notes the variable length of the sarissa, the shortest of which are 8 cubits long.
                    Other authors determine the length of the sarissa from 3 to 5.4 m.
                    Fig. Macedonian order of battle .Figure from the article "History of military art"
                    ("Sytin's Military Encyclopedia"; 1913)

                    And finally, let's figure out what exactly sarissa is
                    The Military Encyclopedia of the USSR explains that Sarissa, Sarissa (ancient Greek σάρισα, σάρισσα, Latin sarissa) is a long impact lance with a shock-overturning action, a peak.
                    The power of the phalanx-saria in the battle of the Romans against the Macedonian army in 168 BC. e. describes Plutarch: “The Macedonians in the first lines managed to thrust the points of their sarissa into the shields of the Romans and thus became out of reach for their swords ... The Romans tried to fight off the sarissa with their swords, or bend them to the ground with their shields, or push them aside, grabbing them with their bare hands, and the Macedonians, squeezing their spears even tighter, pierced the attackers through and through, - neither shields nor armor could protect from the onslaught of the sarissa. "
                    a photo.macedonian sarissa



                    What do you think about this, Vyacheslav? What is my guess?
                    1. cost
                      cost 11 September 2020 22: 47 New
                      +2
                      Macedonian sarisaphors








              2. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 11 September 2020 09: 03 New
                +6
                Quote: kalibr
                Without any doubt. But we are not talking about murders in the alley. It is murder anyway. You just need to know the weaknesses of people and use them. Everyone has a skeleton in their closet, something secret that they fear. In a word, you can always make a person "do everything by himself" and you don't have to kill him.

                Good morning! hi
                On compromising evidence, Vyacheslav Olegovich, it is not always possible to leave, especially in big politics)).
                1. kalibr
                  11 September 2020 09: 12 New
                  +5
                  Quote: Krasnodar
                  On compromising evidence, Vyacheslav Olegovich, it is not always possible to leave, especially in big politics)).

                  And on a bucket of diamonds?
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 11 September 2020 09: 41 New
                    +6
                    If a chela has three buckets and he expects to take five buckets from you? Also no laughing
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 12: 26 New
                      +4
                      If a chela has three buckets and he expects to take five buckets from you? Also no

                      Albert, do you and Vyacheslav Olegovich know the place where such buckets are distributed? wink share! Otherwise, I only remember something like that from Bussenar ... winked
                      And on a bucket of diamonds?

                      I remember that Pikul wrote that Alexander I arrived in Pulawy not on a bucket of diamonds, but on a barrel of vodka.
                      Adam Czartorizhsky went ahead to Pulawy to prepare his family for the reception of the distinguished guest. However, the king did not come, and in Pulawy they awoke only at two in the morning. The picture they saw was unforgettable: an old Jew came out of the forest with a candle, behind him a horse was dragging a barrel of vodka, and the Emperor of All Russia sat astride the barrel. Alexander, to justify himself, said that the roads in Poland are terrible:
                      - My crew turned all the wheels on potholes. The guides sent by Emperor Franz left me in the forest. It's good that I got this Jew ...
                      request
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 11 September 2020 14: 43 New
                        +3
                        For me, it's better to move brothel))
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 14: 47 New
                        +3
                        For me, it's better a mobile brothel

                        ... yesterday I caught myself thinking that when two sultans are drinking together, they probably chat about harems ... laughing
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 11 September 2020 15: 21 New
                        +2
                        I think they're talking about changing harems laughing
                        - See this model?
                        - Gorgeous Femina!
                        - And who has it already in the liver ... (c)
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 15: 37 New
                        +3
                        I think they're talking about changing harems

                        But in the days of the Directory, its ringleaders also almost exchanged mistresses! wink
                        Caricature of the time. Josephine and Teresa Talien dance in front of Barras. Bonaparte peeps through the crack ... lol

                        By the way, Albert, I found another caricature about Bonaparte, though not related to the forum, but funny. Caricature "The Beating of Napoleon". Engraving on copper etching, coloring with watercolors. France (?). 1814-1815

                        In the center, we can clearly distinguish Tsar Alexander (the ribbon of the order is on the wrong shoulder!), To his right, the sideburner Bernadotte, who is clearly touched by the spectacle. smile Here's who pounds on the right (extreme) with two hands - I can't understand, perhaps Blucher. Nearby, a blue uniform thrown off for convenience ... laughing
                      5. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 11 September 2020 18: 56 New
                        +1
                        They bent the crowd))
                      6. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 20: 37 New
                        +1
                        They bent the crowd))

                        So he also came to us in a crowd! drinks and Bernadotte, by the way, had his own personal scores ... wink
    2. ghby
      ghby 11 September 2020 09: 08 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Everyone has a skeleton in their closet, something secret that they fear. In a word, you can always make a person "do everything by himself" and you don't have to kill him.

      it works well with one, but doesn't work with an organized and trained mass.
      1. kalibr
        11 September 2020 09: 12 New
        +4
        The masses have leaders. When there is no one to organize it, there is no mass!
  • Camel
    Camel 12 September 2020 08: 38 New
    +1
    Killing on the battlefield is the most ineffective thing ... You are right, it is much more effective to wound an enemy fighter, best of all in the stomach - an abdominal operation is required, plus it takes a long time to recover, plus the distraction of doctors. But killing is good too;)
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 12 September 2020 10: 42 New
      0
      Yadren loaf is the most tsimes))
      Infection of the territory, blinding some of the opponents, the subsequent load on the oncohematology departments of the enemy's medical centers lol
  • novel66
    novel66 11 September 2020 07: 24 New
    +3
    and yet there is a video
  • Morris812
    Morris812 11 September 2020 07: 38 New
    0
    Well, I wanted to read about the peaks, but I got a history textbook (
  • Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 11 September 2020 07: 44 New
    +2
    blue - one of the Italian national colors.
    belay belay Cool.
    1. kalibr
      11 September 2020 08: 53 New
      +3
      Did this surprise you? Do you think green and other flag colors? But no. Italy is a Catholic country. And she was like that at the described time. And there was a completely different symbolism than it is now. As well as in France, where the state color until 1792 was white.
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 11 September 2020 08: 58 New
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        As well as in France, where the state color until 1792 was white.

        Respected! Weak excuse. What is the national color of Italy in 1840? Specifically, not the weather on Mars.
        1. kalibr
          11 September 2020 09: 04 New
          +2
          Blue became the national color of Italy after the unification of the country in 1861 and the creation of the Kingdom of Italy, retaining its purpose even after the transformation of the country into a republic, when it was called “Italian blue”. Available? Any questions?
          1. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 11 September 2020 09: 13 New
            -2
            Quote: kalibr
            Blue became the national color of Italy after the unification of the country in 1861

            Why rave? Agree, from 1840 to 1861 "a huge distance".
            Blue is the national color of the Sardinian kingdom, which included Nice in 1840. hi And why put an owl on a globe?
            Available?
            Probably not, arrogance "is not permissible" -s!
            1. kalibr
              11 September 2020 12: 25 New
              0
              Blue became the national color of Italy after the unification of the country in 1861 and the creation of the Kingdom of Italy, retaining its purpose even after the transformation of the country into a republic, when it was called “Italian blue”. Again!
        2. kalibr
          11 September 2020 09: 06 New
          +3
          The color blue is depicted on the standard of the President of the Italian Republic, the same color is the scarf for the officers of the Italian army and the heads of the provinces of Italy at official ceremonies. Moreover, the blue is the uniform of the Italian athletes and the national teams. More questions? Numbers of the documents of the Italian government approved it and their photocopies?
          1. kalibr
            11 September 2020 09: 09 New
            +4
            To the heap: In accordance with the traditions of veneration of the Virgin in Catholicism, the blue color was awarded to the ribbons of the Highest Order of the Holy Annunciation (the order of the House of Savoy first, and then of the Kingdom of Italy), the medal "For military valor" (gold, silver and bronze) and the cross "For military prowess "]. For officers, blue scarves were sewn, which was a ribbon thrown over the right shoulder and tied on the left (since 1572, the Duke of Savoy Emmanuel Philibert obliged all officers to wear such scarves). The Savoyard blue scarf is still part of the dress uniform of the officers of the Italian Army.
            1. Mavrikiy
              Mavrikiy 11 September 2020 09: 34 New
              -2
              Quote: kalibr
              To the heap: .... in Catholicism, blue was assigned to the ribbons of the Supreme Order of the Holy Annunciation
              I agree, a bunch of noble ones, but what does it have to do with scarves, ribbons, garters?
              Savoy blue scarf
              The color of linen is, of course, important in heraldry, but the colors of the Duchy of Savoy are white and red, it is from here on the flag of Italy that there is a white cross on a red background. But the national blue of Italy does not smell here. request
              1. Liam
                Liam 11 September 2020 09: 45 New
                +2
                Quote: Mavrikiy
                white cross on red background

                These are the colors of the coat of arms, not the flag. The color of the flag is blu Savoia
                1. Mavrikiy
                  Mavrikiy 11 September 2020 10: 04 New
                  -1
                  Savoy, Piedmont and Sardinia formed a single Sardinian kingdom.
                  By the end of 1860, the territory of Italy was largely united around the Kingdom of Sardinia.
                  Quote: Liam
                  These are the colors of the coat of arms, not the flag. The color of the flag is blu Savoia

                  Quote: kalibr
                  Blue became the national color of Italy after the unification of the country in 1861
                  Do you agree with this? what
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 11 September 2020 10: 18 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Mavrikiy
                    Savoy, Piedmont and Sardinia formed a single Sardinian kingdom.
                    By the end of 1860, the territory of Italy was largely united around the Kingdom of Sardinia.

                    So what? This kingdom was ruled by representatives of the House of Savoy, whose flag color is azure (aka blue Savoy)
                    Quote: Mavrikiy
                    Blue became the national color of Italy after the unification of the country in 1861
                    Do you agree with this?

                    Naturally, until 1946, the unified Italy was a kingdom, and the azure color of the Savoy house became the color of the country (not to be confused with the national flag).
                    By the way, the first presidential standard of the republic from 1965 to 1990 was completely blue Savoy. From 46 to 65 there was no separate presidential standard, the country's flag was used
                    1. Mavrikiy
                      Mavrikiy 11 September 2020 10: 21 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Liam
                      By the way, the first presidential standard of the republic from 1965 to 1990 is completely blue Savoy.

                      What does the ruler's standard have to do with the national color? request
                      1. Liam
                        Liam 11 September 2020 10: 23 New
                        +1
                        Silly question. The president (or king) is one of the main symbols of the state. And the color of his standard is not chosen from a hangover, but is the national color
                  2. kalibr
                    11 September 2020 13: 50 New
                    +2

                    Flag of the Kingdom of Sardinia in 1816-1848. So in 1840, blue could well be considered one of the national colors of the Italian Kingdom.
          2. Liam
            Liam 11 September 2020 09: 22 New
            +5
            Quote: kalibr
            Blue colour

            If not exactly blue, but azure.
            Azzurro and not blu (blue) like the French. It was the official color of the House of Savoy.
          3. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 11 September 2020 09: 38 New
            -4
            Quote: kalibr
            The color blue is depicted on the standard of the President of the Italian Republic,

            From the kingdom to the republic of the distance ...
            Moreover, the blue is the uniform of the Italian athletes and the national teams. More questions?
            I don't, but the doctor may have ...
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 11: 45 New
              +5
              A delightfully pointless argument! I'm just enjoying it! laughing
              My hands are itching to participate in it, only who would explain to me what this thing is - "national color" or "colors". And how do they differ from "non-national".
              Could it be that today there is one national color and another tomorrow? Can one country oblige another not to use its national colors? And if the state is multinational, what color is it - "national"? And if one nation lives on the territory of different states, should it have one national color or different? Does national symbolism differ from the state one? Is there such a thing as a "state color" at all, and if there is, is it possible to put an equal sign between "national" and "state" colors? In short, there are many questions ... recourse
              But the most important question is still the question of what a national color is. Who can answer? laughing
              1. Liam
                Liam 11 September 2020 12: 15 New
                +1
                You have a lot of questions. It's a pity that they are of a kindergarten level. Start self-education on a topic with explanatory dictionaries. When you master the basic things, contact again and get help on more complex and specific points.
                National colors

                Interpretation

                
                National colors



                National colors are colors chosen by the state as a distinctive sign and used for flags, as well as historically developed and used in other cases
                .

                https://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/1574282/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 13: 15 New
                  +4
                  Oops, we have a clever guy who has learned to copy text from the Internet. Well, well, for some, this is a level, congratulations. If this information is enough for you to feel like an expert in this matter, I'm happy for you, but personally I expected more creativity from you. Apparently, he once again overestimated your capabilities. Well, okay, nothing can be done, this is my flaw - I often think of people better than they really are.
                  Now let's try to move to the next level of knowledge. If it is difficult - say right away, we will think of something to make it easier for you.
                  Quote: Liam
                  National colors - colors chosen by the state

                  Are the nation and the state the same?
                  Do the colors of state symbols always match the national colors?
                  Quote: Liam
                  and used for flags

                  For flags only?
                  Quote: Liam
                  as well as historically established and used in other cases

                  Elected by the state - only for flags, and historically established - only for other cases? Or elected and established both there and there? In the latter case, almost any color can be recognized as a "national color". And in general - what does "historically formed" and "in other cases" mean? For example, is black a national color for Russia? Historically, it was used “on other occasions” at funerals, for example.
                  See, from the definition you provided, there are more questions than answers.
                  If you thought a little about the definition of "national color", you would understand that there are certain difficulties in this matter, but perhaps I am asking too much of you.
                  So far, you have demonstrated exclusively the ability to write a query in the search bar and copy the first of the answers received. Should we expect more from you?
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 11 September 2020 13: 31 New
                    -1
                    Mnogabukff .. do not rush so. The topic for you is new, unknown and needs a certain intellectual level for comprehension. From a pedagogical point of view, it is counterproductive to bombard an unprepared brain with too much information. Therefore, from simple to complex .. step by step.
                    So you finally learned that national colors do exist and this is not a whim of Shpakovsky.
                    Let's move on to the next level ... there are a lot of answers to your questions.

                    National colors are used in different countries during the holidays. It is customary for the Irish to wear green clothes on St. Patrick's Day - the folk color of the Irish. Irish people living in the United States have been painting a green section of the Chicago River in Chicago, Illinois on St. Patrick's Day, March 1962, since 17.

                    National colors are very often used by national sports teams. For example, Spanish footballers wear yellow and red uniforms in the colors of the Spanish flag. Australian athletes wear the green and gold uniform, although these colors are absent from the Australian flag, green and gold were established as Australia's national colors in 1984.

                    But in some cases, the color of the sports uniform does not coincide with the national colors: for example, the uniform of the Netherlands national football team is orange - the coat of arms (livery) color of the Orange dynasty ruling in the Netherlands. The German national football team plays in a white and black uniform, the colors of which come from the silver and black coat of arms of the German (Teutonic) Order and later were included in the coat of arms of the Hohenzollern dynasty, the colors and flags of Prussia, and after the unification of Germany were included in the flag of the German Empire
                    .
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 14: 11 New
                      +3
                      It's all great - the Dutch and the Irish and the Germans and the Australians with the New Zealanders. But at the same time you jump from fifth to tenth.
                      You haven't figured out the basic concept yet. Give a clear definition of the concept of "national color", only then you will be able to talk about whether this or that color is "national" for someone. However, what I am saying, you certainly can do so, but all these arguments of yours can only be wiped off, although this, apparently, worries you least of all. And right, in fact, why take care of them, your reasoning, then, the price is not high. smile
                      Just in case, let me explain - "definition" is a set of features that make it possible to distinguish a defined concept from everything else.
                      The definition you gave does not stand up to criticism, why - see above.
                      1. Liam
                        Liam 11 September 2020 14: 33 New
                        -1
                        Reading your posts, for some reason, the word Logoroik comes to mind. By the way. The first sign of an intelligent person is simply to formulate your thoughts clearly and as briefly as possible. This is clearly not your strongest feature.
                        Revenons à nos moutons ... if you simplify that you would understand, national flowers are one of the distinguishing features of the nation and the state
                        hell. Attributes. Traditions. Same as language, culture, anthem, flag. Although I suspect that it will be difficult for you to understand why the country needs the Anthem and why people sing it together.
                        It is such a kind of intangible thing, but which people need to emphasize their unity, difference from others, a symbol of belonging to the nation. In colors, it is a visual symbol, which is the most "striking".

                        Naturally, all this goes back centuries, heraldry .. that's all.

                        Did I explain it clearly?
                      2. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 15: 27 New
                        +6
                        Can you give a clear list of criteria by which you can separate the "national" color from the "non-national"?
                        Can you clearly separate the colors of the state symbols from the national colors?
                        Can you do the same for multinational states or for nations living in different states?
                        Couldn't yet. So the subject of your discussion with Mauritius and Shpakovsky has not been determined. So the discussion is pointless. That, in fact, I wrote in the first comment. smile
                        I think the main discussion is over. smile
                        Now a little about something else.
                        You argue yourself do not know what. Your thinking and conclusions are superficial. You cannot focus on the subject of discussion. You cannot express your thoughts, no matter how primitive they are, clearly and consistently.
                        The only thing that you know how to do relatively well is to provoke the participants in the discussion to be harsh with your manner of expressing yourself and go away from the topic when the answer requires you to have minimal knowledge of the subject, often at the same time becoming personal.
                        The first testifies to the lack of a developed intellect, the second to the absence of proper education and moral cleanliness. The portrait turns out so-so, is not it? smile
                        PS
                        Am I not speaking too fast? laughing
                        A. That. I can. Do. It. Slower. laughing
                      3. Liam
                        Liam 11 September 2020 16: 09 New
                        0
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        clear list

                        These are pathetic attempts at trolling and not questions. I, the author, will undecim each in my own manner answered them quite clearly and in detail. So do not be hypocritical. Your repeated questions have as a goal not a discussion but trolling, as you understand it.
                        Quote: Trilobite Master
                        Now a little about something else


                        Trilobite Master
                        Today, 11: 45

                        +4
                        A delightfully pointless argument! I just enjoy


                        When a Persian comes from such trump cards- he is looking for holivar and not a reasonable discussion. Naturally, any self-respecting person will answer him in rhyme.
                        Complaining and whining about a fair reaction to your own provocations is not a very masculine behavior. If you really decide to step on the warpath, behave yourself with dignity and silently endure all the hardships, etc., etc.
                        Py Sy.Troll from you, too, no. You and a couple of second lieutenants are used to disrespectful here to some of the participants in the discussions (bar and others), a crowd to call names and petrosyan stupid. The personal insults that you allow yourself in relation to them have nothing to do with their rightness / wrongness on the topics of the articles. So do not pretend to be the Virgin Mary.
                        PySy.Mauritius (in relation to which you consider yourself higher), by the way, conducted the discussion correctly and despite my disagreement with his theses, I did not allow myself any attacks. And you are a provocateur. Therefore, the attitude is appropriate
                      4. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 17: 03 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Liam
                        Complaining and whining

                        I don't know where you found the complaints - I just very clearly, to the best of my ability, described what I see in front of me in your face, after you became personal.
                        If you want, we will continue, especially since communication in this style is apparently familiar to you and is most accessible to you. smile
                        Well, as for my "call", then to someone, and even to you, it is somehow inappropriate to make any claims about this, your "visits", if they differ from what I demonstrated today, then only in greater rudeness and harshness ... laughing
                        My manner of conducting a discussion with some site visitors, as a rule, is a consequence of a long-standing relationship, in order to understand this, you need to go back a certain amount of time and then everything will become clear. Even with you, at first I tried to discuss constructively, but the methods that you use in the discussions (I listed them in the previous comment) convinced me that such discussions are not interesting to you (or are not available, which seems to me, more correctly), that you want exactly holivara, so why then try and look for arguments for a substantive dispute?
                        I even informed you about who I see in your face, and how I see the prospects for our communication, so what kind of "discussion" could you expect from me, answering today my comment, addressed, by the way, to Mauritius?
                        Let's do it this way: the next time you want to write something to me, do not hesitate, just try to do it as correctly as possible and conduct a discussion without provocation. For my part, I am ready to do the same. Let's give each other, so to speak, one last chance and see what happens. smile
                        Well, no, no. We will continue to holivar, too, wow entertainment. laughing
            2. Undecim
              Undecim 11 September 2020 14: 42 New
              +5
              I will join the smart guy. I will try not to copy from the Internet, except to save time, limited at a given moment, so as not to insert scans.
              Let's start with science - linguistics, or rather, with the branch of this science - cultural linguistics. She studies the relationship between language and cultural concepts. The concept in philology is the content side of the verbal sign, in other words, the unity of the essential properties and relations of objects reflected in thinking, related to the mental, spiritual or material sphere of human existence, enshrined in the social experience of the people, having historical roots in their life.
              National color is one such concept. Any color, regardless of whether it is national, is characterized by a certain symbolism, clearly and uniformly understood by many representatives of the ethnic group.
              Accordingly, the national color will be that color that reflects a certain cultural and historical tradition of a given country and certain color preferences that have been developing in this ethnic group for centuries. And this choice is not accidental.
              For example, the analysis of a large corpus of texts of Russian fiction of the XIX-XX centuries. on the subject of the frequency of use of color names showed that in two million word usage 11 thousand color names were recorded, most often in which white and red are found.
              National colors are extra-class, extra-class, non-partisan and relatively constant: they do not change even when the ruling regime changes.
              Fidelity to your concepts and the ability to carry them through the centuries constitute a special
              pride and serve as a guarantee of the continuity of the historical life of peoples.
              1. kalibr
                11 September 2020 15: 02 New
                +3
                Great! Especially about red and white ...
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 15: 04 New
                  +3
                  Especially about red and white ...

                  Africans thought differently ... laughing "If we drive the whites away, we will have a good life!" lol
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 11 September 2020 15: 45 New
                  +1
                  Especially in Rwanda.
                3. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 15: 46 New
                  +1
                  Especially in Rwanda.

                  There was generally trash ... No.
              2. Undecim
                Undecim 11 September 2020 16: 42 New
                +5
                The Great Black Continent is a separate topic. Africa is inhabited by a lot of people with very different ideas about the "good life". To understand many of the processes one has to visit, communicate with people, moreover, preferably from different social strata and not as a tourist.
                Moreover, Africans are very advanced guys. Remember how much money they "took" from the USSR and solely for kissing.
              3. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 11 September 2020 18: 03 New
                +1
                talk to people
                Yes, I recently talked, they worked for me as loaders.
              4. Undecim
                Undecim 11 September 2020 18: 08 New
                +6
                From Rwanda? Students?
              5. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 11 September 2020 18: 31 New
                +2
                Bliiin! Viktor Nikolaevich, I didn't throw pictures to you! I beg your pardon generously!
                No, I wasn't from Rwanda, I specifically asked. From the former French colonies, they speak Pidgeon France among themselves. Not students, migrant workers.
              6. Undecim
                Undecim 12 September 2020 12: 06 New
                +2
                If Gaster from Africa went to Russia, either Russia made a very sharp step forward in terms of living standards, or some local sorcerer who studied in his youth at the University of Lumumba put an irresistible spell on the poor blacks in order to mock his fellow tribesmen.
            3. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 20: 44 New
              +1
              From Rwanda? Students?

              Didn't he send you a photo? They look like the "dancing undertakers" from the famous video. yes Yes, Senor Di Bajini was able to feel like a real fasendeiro! lol drinks ... I suspect he still made them sing "azi-gum-garum-geru" while working ... wink
            4. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 11 September 2020 20: 58 New
              0
              They themselves began to sing, while they waited "pukhto" and by chance, by singing, they caused rain.
            5. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 21: 10 New
              +2
              They themselves began to sing, while they waited "pukhto" and by chance, by singing, they caused rain.

              That is, it was not necessary to give a tambourine? belay However, it works! Do you remember the words? ... and then, you never know, you will need ... request
              It looked like this, only instead of a coffin there was a trunk with solid household waste. Anton smeared his face with shoe polish, and was in front, in a tambour major laughing Do not be offended .. A friendly joke, dear Friend! drinks
    2. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 20: 41 New
      +1
      Remember how much money they "took" from the USSR and solely for kissing.

      ah .. a sore corn, Victor Nikolaevich! drinks It would be better for sure to equip themselves, and not to chocolate kissing lovers. request
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 15: 34 New
    +3
    Viktor Nikolaevich, I did not assert that national colors do not exist. I only said that these debaters themselves do not know what they are arguing about, and before starting a discussion it would be nice to define the concepts and subject matter.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 11 September 2020 16: 25 New
      +2
      before starting the discussion, it would be nice to define the concepts and the subject thereof.
      This is a very correct thought. In the light of the discussion that has arisen, such concepts can be considered national colors and colors of state symbols. They don't always match. Many countries in the past were monarchies and as the state emblem and flag inherited the corresponding monarchical attributes, drawn up according to the laws of heraldry. In heraldry, seven colors are used: two metals and five enamels. Naturally, they may not coincide with national ones.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 17: 33 New
      +3
      It is clear that among Italians, Germans, Dutch, their national colors, which are absent in state symbols, come from their rich history, you can trace the origins.
      But what about, for example, Australia, which does not have such a rich past, but has a coat of arms, a flag and these very national colors - green and gold (officially approved!), Which are not found on the coat of arms or on the flag?
      No, the concept of "national color" seems to me so vague, amorphous that it seems to me simply impossible to argue about the belonging of this or that color to the "national" one.
      It was no coincidence that I reminded Liam of black in Russian heraldry. Now it is certainly not a national color - many do not even know that it was once the coat of arms of the Russian Empire. It was also used in the Middle Ages. Can it be considered a national color, like, for example, yellow (gold), in the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries?
      In general, today I initially wanted to speculate about peaks ... smile
    3. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 11 September 2020 17: 54 New
      +3
      But what about, for example, Australia, which does not have such a rich past, but has a coat of arms, a flag and these very national colors - green and gold (officially approved!), Which are not found on the coat of arms or on the flag?
      Michael! hi
      At least as a precedent, Australia's Olympic color is green. Well, and the gold ... "Gold rush" there, taking into account the contingent, was worse than on the Klondike.
    4. Undecim
      Undecim 11 September 2020 17: 55 New
      +3
      But what about, for example, Australia, which does not have such a rich past, but has a coat of arms, a flag and these very national colors - green and gold (officially approved!), Which are not found on the coat of arms or on the flag?
      National colors and can not be found on the coat of arms and flag of the Commonwealth of Independent States, since they were granted by King Edward VII (version 1908) and George V (version 1912, still used today). The symbols of the British colonies are entirely in line with British heraldry.
      As for the national flowers of Australia - golden acacia, they have been established around the beginning of the XNUMXth century. Gold - Australian beaches, mineral wealth, wheat. Green is the forest, eucalyptus and grassland of the Australian landscape.
    5. Undecim
      Undecim 11 September 2020 18: 04 New
      +5
      It was no coincidence that I reminded Liam of black in Russian heraldry. Now it is certainly not a national color - many do not even know that it was once the coat of arms of the Russian Empire. It was also used in the Middle Ages. Can it be considered a national color?
      I have already explained above that national and heraldic colors are completely different categories.
      Black (as black is called in heraldry) has been used for a very long time. Its interpretation is quite complicated, on the one hand, mourning, on the other - strength and desire for victory, patience, firmness, perseverance, constancy in decision-making, wisdom, caution, silence, honor, faith and devotion until death.
      How black appeared in the coat of arms of the Russian Empire - you need to look at the literature. But it is clear that this is not a national color.
    6. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 18: 25 New
      +3
      Quote: Undecim
      But it is clear that this is not a national color.

      But I don't understand. Why not? This is exactly what I am talking about: ask me in the middle of the night whether black is the national Russian, I, without hesitation, will answer that no and, probably, I will be right. And why? Because ... and here the arguments end. Was there a golden face of the Savior on a black (as well as purple) field? Was. Was there a black two-headed eagle? Was. Was the flag of the Russian Empire? Was! Until 1917, he was in all state institutions. Coat of arms of the Russian Empire in what colors? Silver, gold, black. Did you paint warships in black and yellow? Yes. Was there a Markov regiment in the Civil? Was. Were there leather jackets for the Chekists? There were. The black berets of the Marine Corps are still there. Government cars are black. In the USSR, the black Volga is a sign of elitism. What else is needed?
      But it still doesn't work. Why? I do not know.
      There is no definition of "national color". There is a concept, but no definition. As in that joke - "there is an ass, but no words." And you can even argue to the point of complete frenzy about whether this or that color is "national", but it will not work to prove anything, except for those cases when this color is officially spelled out in the law. Is that a sociological study to produce in specific countries with the question "name your national color."
    7. Undecim
      Undecim 11 September 2020 18: 43 New
      +3
      But I don't understand
      What's incomprehensible here? At the time when the English heraldists compiled the coats of arms of the dominions, the concept of the national color had not yet been formed among the inhabitants of Australia, therefore it cannot be present on the coat of arms.
    8. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 18: 50 New
      +2
      God bless her, Australia. Everything is clear there - national colors are spelled out in the law. It is not clear how we so boldly and unambiguously define national or non-national colors in other peoples.
    9. Undecim
      Undecim 11 September 2020 19: 03 New
      +4
      We? I usually find out this question on the relevant resources of the countries of interest to me.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 11 September 2020 18: 53 New
    0
    Is that a sociological study to produce in specific countries with the question "name your national color."
    As part of a sociological study, I will answer - gray, from "khaki" and "fieldgrau" to "wet asphalt" laughing
  • Liam
    Liam 11 September 2020 18: 53 New
    0
    The color becomes national not because it was present or is present in heraldry or on the flag. And not because of the law naturally. The color becomes national when it is perceived by society, it is part of the national "DNA". Tell the Italian only 1 word - gli azzuri or the French les bleus without no other words or explanations - and he immediately understands that we are talking about his national team. He does not associate it with any other color.
    If the black color says nothing to the Russian, then it is not national and it does not matter if it is present on the flag, etc.
    Although I think that if a Russian is told the Red Machine, he will quite feel it
  • Free wind
    Free wind 11 September 2020 20: 01 New
    0
    Zhiguli ???? By the way, the Italians are obsessed with Formula 1, they are not special fans of football.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 11 September 2020 21: 19 New
    +1
    I am Russian. I have the phrase "red car" associated with American hockey.
  • Liam
    Liam 11 September 2020 21: 29 New
    0
    This means that the Russians do not have a national color, but this is scientifically explainable.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 11 September 2020 21: 44 New
    +2
    Undoubtedly! Due to the fact that "Russian" is not a nationality, it is a state of mind.
  • Liam
    Liam 11 September 2020 21: 49 New
    0
    I am afraid you with such statements will be, at the most, accused of unpatriotism and distortion.
    This is generally something from the field of poetry.
    You can't go far with such criteria
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 11 September 2020 22: 03 New
    +2
    Do not be afraid, I have not been accused of anything.
  • Phil77
    Phil77 11 September 2020 21: 33 New
    +1
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    "red car" is associated with American hockey

    Hi Anton! American hockey? winked Please clarify.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 11 September 2020 21: 50 New
    0
    Sergei! hi
    I don’t know anything about hockey, but I remember how the first successful Russian legionnaires were named in the NHL a quarter of a century ago. Or was it 20 years ago ...
  • Phil77
    Phil77 11 September 2020 22: 01 New
    +3
    Okay! * American journalists called the USSR national team a red car *, somewhere in the early 80s, when the then coach of the Union national team Viktor Tikhonov found out about this, he was terribly offended, but journalist Vsevolod Kukushkin, accompanying the national team, explained to the master that there was nothing in this name No offensive! Quite the opposite! There is a version that this concept came from baseball, in particular from the Cincinnati Reds team.
    Yes! Even in one of the interviews, before the 72nd super series, Phil Esposito was asked who he could name from the * stars * of the Soviet team. To which the answer followed:
    * What ???? Stars ???? We are the stars !!! And they are nobody! *.
    After the first matches, he thought differently!
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 11 September 2020 22: 10 New
    0
    I give up! "Loshara" I am in the history of sports! crying
  • Phil77
    Phil77 11 September 2020 22: 12 New
    +1
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Or was it 20 years ago ...

    The first Russian legionnaire was Sergei Pryakhin, who played for * Calgary Flames *.
    1988/89. How !!!! laughing
    And they called him ... well, what is everyone from the USSR called? Of course Russian! wink
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 11 September 2020 19: 04 New
    +3
    How black appeared in the coat of arms of the Russian Empire - you need to look at the literature. But it is clear that this is not a national color.

    The standard of Peter I is a two-headed black eagle with maps of the four seas on a gold background.

    Regarding the black color in the Russian heraldic signs, I have suspicions that the surviving black banners with the savior were originally red and blackened from decay. Perhaps a philological substitution (pun) black (red) and black!

    But this is my guess.
  • cost
    cost 11 September 2020 23: 45 New
    +2
    The standard of the Preobrazhensky regiment under Peter was on a black background

    and here is the Semyonovsky regiment on gold
  • cost
    cost 11 September 2020 23: 55 New
    +2
    The standard of Peter I is a two-headed black eagle with maps of the four seas on a gold background.

    Vlad hi Allow me to slightly correct not four seas, but four maps of sea two seas and two bays
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 September 2020 04: 17 New
    +3
    Dmitry, my compliments!
    It is these "thin things" that can be found on the VO forum!
    Sincerely, Vlad!
  • kalibr
    11 September 2020 17: 39 New
    +4
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    I only said that these disputants themselves do not know what they are arguing about.

    I know. That one of the national colors of Italy is blue! All!
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 11 September 2020 17: 57 New
    +4
    these debaters
    "These little animals, such arguments!" (FROM) laughing
  • Liam
    Liam 11 September 2020 18: 20 New
    0
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    these debaters themselves do not know what they are arguing about

    It seems that the only one who does not know what the dispute is about is you. The rest of the participants in the discussion know what they are arguing about.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 18: 44 New
    +3
    Quote: Liam
    The rest of the discussion participants know what they are arguing about

    So what about? Is blue the national color of Italy?
    The deaf do not serve mass twice, but I will repeat my question especially for you, since you did not understand from the previous time.
    What criteria do you use to assess whether a color is national? Give me these criteria and argue further as much as you like with anyone, even with Bar, even with Mauritius. If these criteria convince me that on their basis it is possible to draw the only correct conclusion, I will shut up. wink
  • Liam
    Liam 11 September 2020 19: 01 New
    -2
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Deaf do not serve deaf twice

    Therefore, read my post to Undechim from 18.53.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 20: 39 New
    +2
    Quote: Liam
    Tell the Italian only 1 word - gli azzuri or the French les bleus

    Is this the criterion by which you determine and will? smile
    Quote: Liam
    is part of the national "DNA"

    This is generally something from the field of poetry.
    You won't go far with such criteria, don't you think?
  • Liam
    Liam 11 September 2020 21: 40 New
    -2
    It seems to me that you continue to troll. Or, even worse, these rather simple things are beyond your understanding.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 22: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: Liam
    It seems to me that you continue to troll.

    It seems to you.
    The Japanese national football team is wearing blue uniforms. Is Japan's national color blue?
    Well, about DNA, what can I say so you don't think I'm a troll? Where in this DNA can color markers be found?
    You cannot - in any way - develop and formulate universal criteria for determining the degree of "nationality" of a color, no matter how hard you try. Therefore, any dispute on this topic, except for the dispute about Australia, can be recognized in advance as pointless. This is what I said in my very first commentary today.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 11 September 2020 19: 15 New
    +3
    Tell me these criteria
    Type Blu Savoia in a search engine and you will find all the criteria.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 20: 29 New
    +1
    Quote: Undecim
    In a search engine, type Blu Savoia - and you will find all the criteria

    The first thing that came across, of course, was Wikipedia.
    Blue became the national color of Italy after the unification of the country in 1861 and the creation of the Kingdom of Italy, retaining its purpose even after the transformation of the country into a republic, when it was called “Italian blue”. The color blue is depicted on the standard of the President of the Italian Republic, the same color is the scarf for the officers of the Italian army and the heads of the provinces of Italy at official ceremonies. Moreover, the blue form is (ital.) Russian. Italian athletes and national teams

    These are the very criteria by which one can determine whether an arbitrarily chosen color is "national" for an arbitrarily chosen country?
    The color of at least one official flag, details of ceremonial army equipment and uniforms of national teams in various sports? Or are there any more?
  • Undecim
    Undecim 12 September 2020 12: 01 New
    +1
    Mikhail, in my opinion we went in a circle. Someone you remind me of ...
    Go back to the beginning, to my first comment. try it. following the example of an army sergeant major, to combine space and time in relation to "Italian blue", remember "squadara azura".
    If all else fails, please consider me Pilate. If there are those willing to play the role of the Jews, the flag is in their hands.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 12 September 2020 13: 17 New
    +1
    Viktor Nikolaevich, the only thing I wanted to say on this topic is that there are no and cannot be universal criteria for defining a particular color as "national", there is not even a sensible definition of the concept of "national color", and therefore any dispute on this topic is initially pointless.
    And if in the dispute about "blue Italian" someone who was not very stupid had the whim to resist and deny its national essence, then none of his opponents could have cited enough arguments to refute his position, although the case seems to be obvious ... For example, an argument such as "I believe that national colors should be defined as such by law. If this condition is absent, then the color cannot be considered national" destroys all attempts by opponents to prove otherwise.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 12 September 2020 13: 31 New
    +2
    there is not even a sensible definition of the concept of "national color",
    Do you think my comment on this topic is stupid? Strange, I tried to present the issue without unnecessary overload of philosophy. I cannot call the dispute pointless because a specific subject is being discussed.
    For what reasons you took a "negative" position - I don't know. Maybe Bar 2 has hacked your account and is writing on your behalf?
    Anyway - see my previous comment. last paragraph.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 12 September 2020 15: 35 New
    +2
    Quote: Undecim
    a specific subject is being discussed.

    The subject of discussion is the possible relevance of the object of discussion - color - to the phenomenon of "national color". Without questioning the very existence of such a phenomenon, I note that its boundaries are not defined, so each of the participants in the discussion has the opportunity to determine these boundaries arbitrarily, in accordance with their own beliefs or current interests, while obtaining diametrically opposite results.
    Until a definition of the concept of "national color" is given, from which all participants in the discussion can make a start in their reasoning, the discussion itself seems to me to be absolutely meaningless.
    It looks like we are at an impasse in this discussion. For example, I sincerely do not understand why you think my position is vulnerable. Perhaps my legal education affects here and things that are obvious to me do not seem at all, and should not seem so to someone else, but in any case, I do not know how to formulate my position more clearly. request
    And as for Bar, you're in vain, don't do that.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 12 September 2020 16: 39 New
    +3
    And as for Bar, you're in vain, don't do that.
    It was a joke, if it offended you - sorry, least of all I wanted to offend you.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 11 September 2020 16: 16 New
    +4
    By the way, it would be interesting to see what colors are most often used in English and French-language literature. Perhaps the same ...
  • The comment was deleted.
  • kalibr
    11 September 2020 13: 51 New
    +1
    And the Kingdom of Italy in 1816-48. there was also a blue flag!
    1. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 11 September 2020 14: 16 New
      -1
      Quote: kalibr
      And the Kingdom of Italy in 1816-48. there was also a blue flag!

      belay belay "Well, you give, captain!" To do this, you had to create the Kingdom of Italy. request Italy in 1815–49.
      The collapse of the Napoleonic empire marked the beginning of the period of the Restoration in India, which lasted until the 1850s. Have been restored, with some adjustments borders, former Ital. state, and in them - the absolutist regimes.
      Austr. the empire secured a leading position in I. Lombardy and the Venetian region. (Veneto) made up the Lombard-Venetian kingdom of the empire and became an outpost of the 100-thousandth Austr. army.
      So, carry the blue flag of the Kingdom of Italy over your bed as a memory of the history of Italy.
      1. kalibr
        11 September 2020 14: 22 New
        +3
        This is the Flag of the Sardinian Kingdom, which most actively participated in the unification of Italy. So there was such a flag and its color was considered one of the national colors of Italy. With this you really will not argue? What are you trying to prove to me? That "azur" was not the national color of Italy. Was. That the Flag of the Kingdom of Sardinia was not "Saoya Blue"? Was that blue flags have not been used in Italy since 1572? Used.
        The first mention dates back to June 20, 1366, when Count Amadeus VI of Savoy set out on a crusade against the Turks, blessed by Pope Urban V, to help the troops of the Byzantine emperor John V Palaeologus, who was his maternal relative. Amadeus assembled a fleet of 17 ships with 2 men on board and ordered a blue flag fluttering next to the Savoy's banner, a red banner with a silver cross, on the flagship of the Venetian gallery. Luigi Cibrayo wrote in his books about this flag:
        [...] about the image of the Blue Banner with the image of the Mother of God in a field strewn with stars (gold). And that sky-blue color dedicated to Mary, it seems to me, represents the roots of our national color [...]
        […] Di devozione di Zendado Azzurro con l'immagine di Nostra Signora in campo seminato di stelle (oro). E quel colore di cielo consacrato a Maria è, per quanto a me pare, l'origine del nostro color nazionale […]
        Given the Catholics' perception of blue as the color of Mary, it is assumed that the blue banner appeared at Savoy much earlier. One way or another, the oldest flag of Savoy depicted in sources (1589) represented a panel of red, white (the color of the coat of arms of the House of Savoy) and blue.
        Just don't be too clever. And before you write, it's a good idea to check out the internet.
      2. kalibr
        11 September 2020 17: 40 New
        +1
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        to lead

        Yes, I read ...
      3. Icelord
        Icelord 11 September 2020 19: 05 New
        +3
        The fact that you are ignorant, Mr. Mauritius, is not so bad. The trouble is that hatred is boiling in you, sorry for you
  • Icelord
    Icelord 11 September 2020 18: 50 New
    +3
    Well, here you are again, not knowing the ford, poking into the water. Chill out and learn history
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 20: 54 New
      +2
      Well, here you are again, not knowing the ford, poking into the water. Chill out and learn history

      Igor, come back more often. Clever and friendly interlocutors are welcome here. drinks
      1. Icelord
        Icelord 11 September 2020 22: 10 New
        +3
        Thank you
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 10: 19 New
    +3
    In 1846, on the San Diego to San Pasquale road, a 75-man Californian presidio engaged several companies of the 1st American Dragoon Regiment under the command of Colonel Kearney. The dragoons could not use their firearms, because the gunpowder was wet, so they had to fight with melee weapons and lost three officers and 15 soldiers, and the same number were wounded. Among the Mexicans, one lancer was captured and ten were wounded.

    This is to talk about the "stupid bullet and the bayonet-good fellow", which the "experts" like to blame Suvorov. hi at that moment for the Mexicans everything came together as best as possible! yes But, as far as I heard, the American cavalry was generally not very fond of melee weapons? I mean, you preferred to act with a firearm? hi
    More about the peaks: In the 60s of the XNUMXth century, four "pike regiments" were created in the Russian army (on the territory of the Novorossiysk province). Subsequently, on their basis, hussar regiments were deployed. drinks
    1. Alex013
      Alex013 11 September 2020 10: 42 New
      +4
      About the attitude of the American cavalry to melee weapons. Well, they were more of the infantry, mounted on horses. It just so happened historically.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 10: 56 New
        +7
        About the attitude of the American cavalry to melee weapons. Well, they were more of the infantry, mounted on horses. It just so happened historically.

        Alexey, you are probably right. hi although they had sabers, we know little about them, for, as the antique website says: It is extremely difficult to buy a saber, a sword and a naval dagger in Moscow, the United States, the topic of American edged weapons in Russia has not been studied and is not popular. request But they were the first to have a revolver! fellow

        Officer's cavalry saber. Production release 1805-1810 USA. The period of the Anglo-American War of 1812-1815. (Second American War of Independence). A rare specimen of early American edged weapons. Original, original.
        here is the full description: https://waterloo-collection.ru/31236/
        Colleagues, here is the site of an antique store (I just found it by chance) - here are various samples.
        Marvel at your health! drinks
        https://waterloo-collection.ru/category/strany-ameriki/holodnoe-oruzhie-strany-ameriki/
        1. Alex013
          Alex013 11 September 2020 11: 09 New
          +1
          Thanks for the link, I wonder
        2. hohol95
          hohol95 11 September 2020 11: 55 New
          +5
          hi With a saber, you must approach the enemy close. And the inhabitants of the Northern States preferred to kill their enemy from a greater distance! Probably no decent fencing instructors came to America from Europe.
          But the Indians did not call the Yankees "long knives" for nothing. against the Indians they used their sabers!
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 13: 13 New
            +3
            But the Indians did not call the Yankees "long knives" for nothing. against the Indians they used their sabers!

            That is, we can say that the American military art, in many respects, developed based on the tactics of the one with whom they fought. And, apparently, the Indians also contributed. hi
            Found a number of offhand photos of the Mexican-American War.
            On the left is a Mexican dragoon, in the center is a certain irregular Mexican with a spear. laughing On the right is an American dragoon.

            Here is the uniform of the Mexican army. Note the undersized chubby in flip flops (figure 3, second from the right). This is .... "hero-grenadier"! drinks
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 11 September 2020 14: 08 New
              +3
              Rather, these are shoes - "turkeys". At that time, the Mexicans hardly knew about the existence of the Vietnamese!
              And the uniform is taken from the French!
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 14: 17 New
                +2
                And the uniform is taken from the French!

                yes, at least it reminds me a lot, Alexey!
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 11 September 2020 14: 25 New
                  +2
                  French intervention in Mexico (1862-67).
                  The maximum number of French interventionists reached 38 thousand soldiers. 7 thousand people are registered in irrecoverable losses, of which 5 thousand died from
                  diseases. Of the remaining 2 thousand killed, 1918 people accounted for
                  one and only unit - the Foreign Legion, showing those
                  the most important role that the legion played in this campaign. Almost 32
                  thousands of Mexicans died during the battles with the invaders, or were
                  shot by the verdict of the imperial court. Also killed 5
                  armed supporters of the Empire. The total loss of life in Mexico for
                  five years of intervention, which can be called a continuation of the War of
                  reforms are approaching 300 thousand people.

                  Taken as a model for their uniform.
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 11 September 2020 14: 42 New
                    +3
                    French intervention in Mexico (1862-67).

                    You said that correctly! Only the photos of the form I have laid out refer to the 40s of the 19th century. wink but, indeed, very similar to French! drinks
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 11 September 2020 14: 52 New
                      +3
                      Eh with the dates "smart".
                      On the Internet they write that about 9000 US soldiers "went" to the side of the Mexicans.
                      Legión extranjera, or St. Patrick's Foreign Legion, over 200 people.
                      under the command of Colonel Moreno.
                      3/5 of deserters in the service of Mexico are the British and Scots, Americans, Canadians, Germans and other immigrants from Europe (Poland, France, Italy). The remaining 2/5 are considered Irish.
                      Forum reenactor.ru
                      Mexico, XIX century
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 11 September 2020 19: 10 New
            +2
            Quote: hohol95
            hi With a saber, you must approach the enemy close. And the inhabitants of the Northern States preferred to kill their enemy from a greater distance! Probably no decent fencing instructors came to America from Europe.
            But the Indians did not call the Yankees "long knives" for nothing. against the Indians they used their sabers!

            Hi Aleksey!
            I will assume that not because of the "sabers", but the bayonets!
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 11 September 2020 21: 05 New
              +2
              Well, because of the bayonets! Duc there were such bayonets, the same sabers
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 12 September 2020 15: 30 New
                +1
                Doubtful statement! Bayonets of the saber or yatagan type at that time are not known to me. If you have information about similar bayonets used by the British or American armies - enlighten!
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 12 September 2020 15: 49 New
                  +2
                  Well, take a look at the Whitworth rifle scimitar bayonet or Martin Henry's cleaver bayonets.
                  1. hohol95
                    hohol95 12 September 2020 22: 32 New
                    +1
                    Whitworth Rifles - 1863!
                    In total, about 1862 Whitworth rifles were produced in 1866-8200. 1000 of them were equipped with needle bayonets, identical to the British bayonets of the 1853 model, and all subsequent ones - bayonets of the scimitar form of the sample of 1863.

                    A small number of Whitworth rifles, along with bayonets of the 1863 model, were supplied during the American Civil War to the Confederate southerner army. These rifles were used by snipers to inflict point shots at artillery crews and officers of the enemy army.

                    James Fenimore Cooper
                    novel "Prairie"
                    Year of writing: 1827.
                    “Let my brother’s mind go off the crooked path. If the eternally redskin will smite the redskins, who will be the master of the prairie when there is no warrior left to say - "she is mine"? Listen to the wisdom of old people. They tell us that in their young days, many Indians came from the woods in the direction of sunrise and filled the prairies with complaints about the plundering of the Long Knives. Where the pale-faced come, there is no more room for the red-skinned. The land is cramped for them. They are always hungry. Look, they're already here!

                    The Indians gave the nickname "Long Knives" to the American settlers long before the Whitworth rifle appeared!
                    One of the Americans (Alexander Scott Withers (1792-1865)) announced the date - the fall of 1758!
                  2. hohol95
                    hohol95 12 September 2020 22: 45 New
                    +2
                    bayonets cleavers Martin Henry

                    Rifles of this system were in service with the US Army?
                    Not. She was in service with the armies of Great Britain, Turkey and Romania!
                    And it was put into service in general in 1871!
                    The two rifles you cited as an example are not suitable. Adopted in the second half of the 19th century. And one of them was not supplied to the US Army, and the other was used as a sniper during the Civil War by Confederate soldiers!
                    By this time, the nickname "Long Knives" already existed.
                    The action in Prairie takes place in 1804!
                    1. Icelord
                      Icelord 13 September 2020 11: 20 New
                      +2
                      I think that in the 18th century, there were some separate bayonets, but the "Brown Bess" of course had a common bayonet
            2. hohol95
              hohol95 12 September 2020 15: 27 New
              +3
              Scrolling through the spaces of the "tyrnet":
              Autumn 1758.
              The Mingo military detachment was led by a chieftain named Kiskepila - Little Eagle. As soon as he saw Captain Gibson, he let out a cry of alarm and fired his rifle - the bullet pierced through Gibson's hunting shirt and wounded the soldier behind him. The young captain jumped forward and, swinging his blade with a heroic blow, cut off Kiskepil's head. Two more Indians were shot on the spot, while the rest fled into the forest to bring sad news to their villages on the Muskingum River.
              When the war with the Indians ended in 1763 (after the Pontiac uprising), all white prisoners captured since 1754 were returned under a peace treaty. Those who lived in the Mingo villages said that when the remnants of Kiskepil's detachment returned, they described Gibson as a white warrior who cut off the chief's head with a long knife.

              reference to Chronicles of the Frontier War, Alexander Scott Withers, 1831.
              After that, the local Indians began to call all the white settlers (Virginia militias) "Warriors of the Long Knives"!
              1. Icelord
                Icelord 13 September 2020 11: 21 New
                +1
                And yet, the main Indian wars were already during the development of the wild west, and then huge bayonets were fashionable
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 13 September 2020 21: 45 New
                  +2
                  Is there any information about the use of infantry units by the American army against Indian tribes?
                  1. Icelord
                    Icelord 14 September 2020 09: 09 New
                    +1
                    Come on, you are full. Seminole Wars, Ebon Hawk Wars, Sioux Wars, notably the Battle of Killdeer Mountain
                  2. Icelord
                    Icelord 14 September 2020 09: 18 New
                    +1
                    Even the famous for his foolish death, General Caster, commanded the forward patrol of Terry's army of infantry and artillery.
                    1. hohol95
                      hohol95 14 September 2020 18: 31 New
                      +2
                      The general was born in 1839!
                      You yourself think, what could in the eyes of an Indian become the image of a "valley knife"?
                      Cavalry saber or broadsword, infantry cleaver.
                      Therefore, I think it is worth stopping our pointless argument about soft and wet!
                      And in the USA, to search for information on the site of those old events, I am not going to go in the next 50 years!
                      1. Icelord
                        Icelord 15 September 2020 08: 35 New
                        +1
                        I agree with you, we have been talking for different times, and the Indians could call officer swords, cavalry sabers, and infantry cleavers as long knives. All these are basically long knives))
  • hohol95
    hohol95 11 September 2020 11: 49 New
    +3
    So, in 1897, the 2nd Bengali regiment of the ulan had one squadron of Sikhs, Jats, Rajputs and Hindu Mohammedans each. And they all had turbans of different styles on their heads. At the same time, the Sikhs did not tolerate the Jats, considering them stupid buffaloes, and the Hindu Mohammedans - Rajputs, whom their religion made it a duty to drink wine and eat meat.

    Pure pragmatism after the Sipai riots. Not the whole unit will rebel, but a separate unit. They can never agree with each other !!! Others will be only too happy to "enlighten the black sheep" with their blades and bullets!
    The RI army did not think about this! But in vain.
    The communists had to think about this. Sending servicemen of different nationalities to military units.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 11 September 2020 15: 56 New
    +1
    Quote: Free Wind
    The Rajputs have a normal religion, religion obliges to eat meat and wine to drink. Cup holders on stirrups for spears, never seen before.

    So Shnurov turns out to be a Rajput saint? And Mikhail Olegovich has a Rajput driving school?
  • Icelord
    Icelord 11 September 2020 18: 45 New
    +4
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, what about the lancers' peaks for the Cossacks in the Napoleonic war?
    1. kalibr
      11 September 2020 19: 27 New
      +2
      Quote: Icelord
      and about the lancers' peaks in the Cossacks in the Napoleonic war will be?

      You know, there is very little about peaks. There is something for the Cossacks, for the lancers, but it makes no sense to isolate them into one thing. Apparently, they will be mentioned in passing in separate articles about the Ulans and Cossacks.
      1. Liam
        Liam 11 September 2020 19: 34 New
        +1
        I see you have devoted many articles to edged weapons of the Napoleonic wars period and later. It would be nice to write an article about the real role and place of edged weapons in the wars of that period. a frequent phenomenon or occasional episodes. The main emphasis was placed on a cannon, a rifle or a bayonet.
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 11 September 2020 19: 53 New
          +2
          Uh ... guns
          1. Liam
            Liam 11 September 2020 21: 45 New
            0
            Quote: Icelord
            Uh ... guns

            Doubtfully

            according to the data of Dmitry Tselorungo, the leading researcher of the State Borodino military-historical museum-reserve,

            in the Battle of Borodino, more than two-thirds of the wounds were bullet wounds, a quarter were caused by the use of artillery shells and only five percent were associated with the use of cold weapons
            .
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 11 September 2020 21: 50 New
              +1
              Perhaps, but the strength of the armies was considered cannons, maybe in that battle they could not use the artillery to the full. Attacking infantry with cavalry was also considered foolish. The intensity was too much for a proper fight
              1. Liam
                Liam 11 September 2020 21: 52 New
                0
                These proportions were then the norm, not the exception.
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 11 September 2020 21: 55 New
                  +2
                  I would now say for Hastings, the 19th century is not really mine. But in five minutes I'll try to find
                  1. Icelord
                    Icelord 11 September 2020 22: 02 New
                    +2
                    Where did you get this data, I have the work of Herman in 1808 and Arseniev in 1828, the numbers there are completely different
        2. kalibr
          11 September 2020 20: 05 New
          +1
          Quote: Liam
          In particular, infantry bayonet combat. What role was assigned to it according to tactics, how often it was used, whether it was a frequent phenomenon or occasional episodes. What was the main emphasis on guns, rifles or bayonets.

          A very difficult task. To do well, you need to read the statutes, you need to read memoirs, and to be honest I just don't have time for this. For example, there was an article about the effectiveness of grape-shot fire in only one military-historical journal of the 90s, and as evil I do not have it in my hands. About bayonet fighting, I did not come across any materials either in Zeichhaus or in Orel. So no rather than yes.
        3. Free wind
          Free wind 11 September 2020 20: 20 New
          0
          About the peaks and in "Quiet Don" is described as the armament of the Cossacks, in the first world war. The bayonet was required, the rifles took a long time to reload, and it was difficult to hit. Therefore, the bullet is a fool, the bayonet is good. Therefore, a more or less dense system, they go in full growth, a la phalanx. When more or less rapid-fire and accurate rifles appeared, the tactics changed, where crouching, where crawling.
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 11 September 2020 20: 30 New
            +2
            Bayonet? Which battle? No, never, it never happened, except for stabbing those already running. The French loved to attack with artillery so fiercely. But standing in line run with a bayonet, suicide
          2. Liam
            Liam 11 September 2020 22: 06 New
            -1
            Bayonet fighting in those glorious times was less than an episodic accident. 99% of the cases did not reach "personal" contact. They fought in dense multi-row columns of hundreds and thousands of people. So hitting the target was quite a simple thing - they fell in the direction of the crowd and be sure You will hit someone. Who was the first to not withstand this exchange of volleys and fled from the battlefield, and he lost. Fundamental was the training of the troops to keep the line, the ability to quickly reload and withstand the "scheme" of shooting, because they did not shoot in a whole line with a volley, but in a certain sequence ...
            1. Icelord
              Icelord 11 September 2020 22: 20 New
              +2
              Yeah, they finished off with bayonets, and they shot with the whole line, but unfortunately for football fans, there was not one line, and having shot, they retreated, and the second shot ... and so on. And they either forgot about it or did not come up with it to run in a crowd with bats. Hello bayonet lovers))
              1. Liam
                Liam 11 September 2020 22: 25 New
                0
                Bullet stupid bayonet well doneour everything
                1. Icelord
                  Icelord 11 September 2020 22: 48 New
                  +2
                  You know, you are right in many respects, the artillery of that time is imperfect, and in big battles it could not inflict as much damage as a gun. But it is difficult and long to explain. You are not a military man, otherwise you would know what the matter is. In a simplified way, two armies of a thousand soldiers stand and shoot at each other, one has ten guns, the other has twenty, the gun is not particularly lethal, but if it hits, that's it. And nothing can be done with her, she shoots farther than the gun, and after a week or two those who have fewer guns give up, they get bored. And when there is an epic cut, there are of course other losses and the statistics are different
            2. hohol95
              hohol95 13 September 2020 23: 40 New
              +1
              Bayonet fighting in those glorious times was less than an episodic accident.

              Could you specify more specifically what those "glorious times" are? More specific.
      2. Icelord
        Icelord 11 September 2020 19: 59 New
        +1
        There was just a nuance. Cossacks' peaks were shortened by a third
        1. Icelord
          Icelord 11 September 2020 20: 01 New
          +1
          I dug, did not understand the matter in horses or as a soldier
          1. Icelord
            Icelord 11 September 2020 20: 03 New
            +1
            Or tactics?