Military Review

How the ancient Slavs fought

181

Slavic horseman in the East of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries Drawing by the author


In a number of articles that we have planned for publication on "VO", we will focus on weapons and how they were used by the early Slavs. The first article will be devoted to the tactics of the Slavs during the XNUMXth and up to the beginning of the XNUMXth centuries. We will separately consider a question that causes a lot of controversy: did the early Slavs have cavalry?

These works continue the cycle dedicated to the ancient military stories Slavs.

The tactics of the early Slavs of the XNUMXth - early XNUMXth centuries.


The use of one or another weapon during the period under review, the methods of its use reflect the situation in society:

"Each nation created all military systems for itself."

(Golitsyn N.S.)

They stem from the understanding by society of the structure of the world, based on the experience of economic and ordinary life.

Until the period when, within the framework of one or another early social organization, there was no understanding about the possibility of obtaining a surplus product not by productive means, but by means of capture, military "business" was always a continuation of the production capabilities of an ethnic group.

The Slavs, detailed written evidence of which appears only in the XNUMXth century, could not have had any other tactics than the one that dictated to them the conditions of life and work.

How the ancient Slavs fought

Map. Migration of the early Slavs

Since their appearance on the historical stage, the raid and ambush have become the main type of military activity:

"To their advantage," wrote Mauritius, "they use ambushes, surprise attacks and tricks, night and day, inventing numerous tricks."

Most of the information is devoted to the preference of the Slavs to fight in forests, cliffs and gorges.

In intelligence, they had no equal. At the time of a sudden raid on their villages, Slavic soldiers, hiding from enemies, sank under the water and breathed through a long reed, being in this position for several hours.

This is how the Slav-intelligence agent captures the "tongue", about which Procopius wrote to us. It happened in Italy:

“And this Slav, having made his way very close to the walls early in the morning, covered himself with brushwood and curled up into a ball, hid in the grass. With the onset of day, a goth came there and quickly began to gather fresh grass, not expecting any trouble from the heaps of brushwood, but often looking back at the enemy camp, as if from there someone would not move against him. Rushing at him from behind, the Slav suddenly grabbed him and, squeezing him strongly across the body with both hands, brought him to the camp and handed him to Valerian. "

The Antes "with their characteristic valor" fought against the Goths, in the troops of Byzantium, "in remote areas."

In 705, in Friula, horsemen and infantry of the Lombards attacked the Slavic raiders who had entrenched themselves on the mountain. The Slavs knocked down the riders with horses with stones and axes, killing all the nobility of Friul, and won the battle.

It is better to convey the ability of the Slavs to disguise than Theophylact Simokatta did, it is impossible:

"Piragast, the philarch of that barbarian horde, camped with military forces at the river crossings and disguised himself in the woods, like some kind of forgotten grape in the foliage."

As a result, the strategist Peter, not believing that there was an ambush, began the crossing and immediately lost a thousand soldiers.

This tactic was used more than once by the Slavs, compensating for their weakness in weapons, even later, in 614:

“When this Ayo had already ruled the duchy for a year and five months, the Slavs came in a great multitude of ships and set up their camp near the city of Siponta (Siponto). They set hidden traps around the camp, and when Ayo, in the absence of Raduald and Grimuald, came out against them and tried to break them, his horse fell into one of these traps. The Slavs attacked him, and he was killed along with many others. "

Constantine V (741-775) in 760 made a raid on Bulgaria, but in the Vyrbish mountain pass he fell into an ambush, which, most likely, was organized by the paktiots of the Bulgarians, the border Slavs. Slavs, for whom the organization of ambushes was a natural thing in the war. The Byzantines were defeated, the strategy of the Thrace was killed.

As for the clashes of the Slavs in open battle, then without a doubt, we can only talk about the battle with the "crowd".

The author of the XNUMXth century wrote about the "crowd" of Slavs. Jordan, who compared them with the tactics of the Goths in the XNUMXth century. He pointed out that only large numbers ensure success for the Slavs: taking advantage of their numerical superiority, the Antes fought the Goths with varying success. And having reached the borders of the Byzantine Empire, the Slavs continued to fight, if, of course, they were forced to do so by the combat situation, "in a crowd" (Ομιλoς). Periodically, from the middle of the VI century. in relation to the Slavic formations, Procopius of Caesarea uses the term "army" (Στράτευμα or Στpατός).

But it is difficult to agree with the conclusions of S.A. Ivanov, who studied these terms in the works of Procopius of Caesarea, that Ομιλoς is a militia, and Στpατός are professional detachments. There is no mention of any professional military groups, that is, people living not within the framework of a tribal organization, but only by war, in the sources. Individual, rare reports about some Slavic warriors and even a separate detachment of antes mentioned by Procopius in service in the Roman empire, which we wrote about in previous articles on "VO", do not change anything.

With traditional mass Slavic weapons (about it in the following articles), there is no need to talk about any use of the correct system. Throwing spears in the absence of otherwise weapons could only be used within the "crowd", and they were extremely dangerous:

"The Romans, approaching the Getae - such is the ancient name of these barbarians, did not dare to deal with them hand-to-hand: they were afraid of darts, which the barbarians threw at their horses from their fortification."

In case of failure, the Slavic soldiers simply fled. Therefore, we cannot agree with the reconstruction of the Slavic military action in the XNUMXth century, which, according to the researcher, looked like this:

“… The Slavs raised their shouts and started running; then, throwing their spears, they walked hand-to-hand. "

And further, the first row of Slavs stands with shields, the rest without: with darts and bows (Nefyodkin A.K.).

If such a construction took place, it would obviously be reflected in the sources, but they are silent about such tactics.

Speaking about hand-to-hand combat, we note that indirect data gives us the right to assume that the Slavs quite actively used a technologically simple but effective melee weapon - a club. But about this - in the appropriate place.

The Slavs, as indicated by Mauritius Stratig, preferred to fight from the fortifications, occupying positions on a hill and reliably covering the rear and flanks.

There is evidence of the use of fortifications from carts (Karagon or Wagenburg) by the Slavs.

The period of transition from the tactics of ambushes and raids to the rare use of more correct battle conditions is quite long, I repeat, historical sources also speak of this.

F. Cardini called this period the time of transition "from the mob to the ranks."

We have already written in previous articles on "VO" about the difficulty of studying the period of this transition: "from the mob to the formation."

On the one hand, a comparative historical analysis shows that the boundaries of the transition are complex, the use of "order" can occur within the framework of a generic organization, for example, as was the case with the ancient Romans, Greeks, Scandinavians of the Viking age.

On the other hand, the presence of early state military institutions, such as the squad, is not decisive for the formation of the "system". The squad can fight in a "crowd". As it was with the retinues of the Gauls described by Caesar.

In the VI-VIII centuries. all Slavic tribes were at different stages, but still the tribal system. During the migration of tribes to the territory of the Balkan Peninsula and to the west, the tribal structure, if it was destroyed during the battles, was revived again, i.e. there was no transition to a territorial community.

The battle "in formation", of course, was influenced by the military affairs of the Romans, with which the Slavs were very familiar.

The question of "formation" itself is closely related to the structure of the army. We know that later the Eastern Slavs had a decimal system in the organization of the army-people, we also have analogues in the Slavs, close in language group, - the Germans.

The formation of the structural units of the Roman army was based on the same system as that of the ancient Greeks ("loch", an analogue of the Slavic "dozen").

This system could not have arisen before the collapse of tribal relations. In particular, its details in Ancient Russia emerge from the moment of transition to a territorial community and the collapse of clan relations, starting from the end of the XNUMXth century, not earlier.

Prior to this period, Voi fought within a kind, like the early Spartans or the Bonds of Norway in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, like the Pechenegs, Polovtsians, and Hungarians. For all of them, the construction took place by birth.

The decimal system does not at all exclude the formation of close relatives in the same order, but if necessary, "neighbors" could be added to them, which cannot be the case with a generic system.

The organization of the troops by family and by tens are antagonists, but we will devote a separate article to this aspect of Slavic, more precisely, East Slavic history.

The few sources already give us the opportunity to track the evolution of the tactics of the Slavs: from ambushes, attacks and crowd defense to the appearance, I emphasize, of the elements of the formation.

Generic relations and the psychological representations and connections arising from them do not provide the necessary properties of the warriors for fighting in the correct order.

The most important point here was the protection factor of a kind in the literal and figurative sense of the word, when it is not shameful to save your life by flight and not die in battle. Note that at the same time, the head of the clan or the leader was free to dispose of the life and death of all relatives, especially in war.

As a guess, it can be assumed that at different stages of the tribal system there is a different type of behavior.

But in the VII century. some of the Slavic tribes that entered into long-term contact with Byzantium are fighting using some elements of the system.

In the 670s, during the siege of Thessalonica, the Slavic tribal union had the following parts:

"... armed archers, shield bearers, lightly armed, spear throwers, slingers, manganarians."

That is, their army already consisted not only of detachments of warriors armed with throwing spears and shields, but also of units specializing in the use of other types of weapons. There is a division: archers occupy an important place, there are already heavily armed infantry (άσπιδιώται). It seems that such a division was achieved thanks to the capture of many captured weapons that the Slavs could receive during the conquest of the Balkans.

The above specialization, most likely, arose under the influence of the Roman (Byzantine) military system.

It was accepted only by the tribes that were in very close contact with the Byzantines, and even then not all, at least, nothing is known about such an army arrangement among the tribes located on the territory of modern Bulgaria.

By indirect indications, it can be assumed that the Croatian tribal union also used something similar when "finding" a new homeland in the Balkans.

For the most part, the Slavic tribes that lived to the north, apparently, retained the same structure, participating in the battles with mobs.

Speaking of tactics, we cannot ignore the important and debatable question of whether the early Slavs had cavalry.

Slavic cavalry


Anticipating this chapter, I would like to define some concepts.

When we talk about cavalry, we are primarily talking not about any method of moving soldiers on horseback, but about cavalry or professional soldiers who fight in a mounted formation. Despite the fact that some of the terms (cavalry, professional) make a serious modernization in the period under review, we will have to use them to separate the concepts associated with the use of horses by the early Slavs in war.

On the basis of ethnographic material, we can say that the horse played an important role in the life of the Slavs, but not only as a labor force.

Mythological ideas about a horse or horses carried by the supreme deity (chariots, thunder, stone arrows) have specific historical roots, originating in the heroic era of the settlement of the Indo-Europeans in the XNUMXrd millennium BC. It is difficult to judge to what extent the echoes of these events were reflected in the early Slavs, a linguistic group that formed much later. But based on the reconstruction of Slavic mythology, it is known that Perun or his hypostasis Stepan (Stepan pan) was the patron saint of horses, the horse played an important role in sacrifices to Perun (Ivanov Vch. V., Toporov V.N.).

Written sources tell us practically nothing about equestrian equipment among the early Slavs.

The extremely close interaction of the ancient Slavs with various nomads: the Indo-European tribes of the steppes of Eastern Europe (late Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans), Huns, Bulgars, Proto-Bulgarians and Avars, practically did not affect their equestrian business, and archaeological finds of the late V-VII centuries, associated with equestrianism, among the early Slavs are of a piece character (Kazansky M.M.).

In the long and elongated mounds of the Smolensk region, 4th-XNUMXth centuries, XNUMX spurs with a sharp conical thorn and a button-shaped thickening were found (Kirpichnikov A.N.). There are similar finds in Poland and the Czech Republic, but there is an opinion that, due to the peculiarity of the finds, these spurs generally belong to the beginning of the millennium, and in the XNUMXth century. there is no evidence that they were used (Shmidt E.A.).

Among the Western Slavs, spurs appear in the second half of the XNUMXth century, under the influence of the Franks (Kirpichnikov A.N.). According to a number of researchers, the Slavs could have borrowed hook-shaped spurs from the western Balts at the end of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries. (Rudnitsky M.).


Spurs of the Western Balts, neighbors of the early Slavs. Source: Rudnitsky M. Contacts between Western Balts and Slavs in the 5th-2014th centuries: archaeological data // Stratum plus. No. XNUMX. XNUMX

That is, we see that the influence of nomads in this matter is excluded. Which coincides with the data of written sources.

The author of "Strategicon" writes that the Slavs kidnap horses because of ambushes from the soldiers, and John of Ephesus (80s of the XNUMXth century) reports about captured Byzantine herds of horses. This information seems to indicate the beginnings of cavalry.

But if some researchers believe that the purpose of these abductions was to deprive the Byzantine soldiers of horses, others assume that the capture of horses was carried out for their own cavalry (Kuchma V.V., Ivanov S.A.). And therefore the term "army" (Στράτευμα), used by Procopius of Caesarea, should just be attributed not to the army in general, but to the mounted Slavic army (Ivanov S.A.).

In 547 the Slavs raided from the Danube to Epidamnes, which is 900 km in a straight line. Such a trip could only be made on horseback, says S.A. Ivanov.

This is consistent with the military situation even in Italy, where the Roman infantrymen sought to acquire horses.

Without disputing the fact of the possible use of horses by the Slavs when moving over distances, including in raids, we again note that there is a big difference between the cavalry as a combat unit and warriors using horses as a means of delivery.

And during the invasion of Illyria, the Slavs were not particularly threatened, 15 thousand warriors of the strategos (master) of Illyria did not come into contact with them, probably fearing their significant number, which allowed the Slavic warriors to calmly carry out their plans:

“Even many fortifications that were here and in the old days seemed strong, since no one defended them, the Slavs managed to take; they scattered to all the surrounding places, freely producing devastation. "

Thus, this information has nothing to do with the Slavic cavalry (Στράτευμα). From the above passage it does not at all follow that the raid was carried out by a cavalry army.

The capture of horses, described in a number of sources mentioned above, was dictated by the need for vehicles, at the same time the Byzantines were deprived of them. Moreover, the Roman army already suffered from a lack of horses, as in the situation of 604, when the emperor Mauritius ordered the soldiers to winter in the Slavic lands.

On this score, we have evidence of Simokatta, who described how a Slavic detachment of scouts, these events took place in 594, destroyed the intelligence of the Romans:

"Having jumped off their horses, the Slavs decided to take a break, and also to give some rest to their horses."

And finally, quite eloquent information about one of the military leaders of the Slavs, Ardagast, who, during the alarm, jumped on a bare horse and resolutely dismounted before the battle with the advancing Romans (593).

Having considered this situation, it is difficult to agree with the hypothesis that those few Slavs or Antes, about 300 people (arithma), along with the Huns-federates in Italy, were an army of mounted riflemen. Sources do not confirm this in any way (Kazansky M.M.).

For the period of the VI century. There is no need to talk about any Slavic cavalry, horses were used exclusively for movement during raids and campaigns.

The heads of clans, military leaders, distinguished soldiers, having become acquainted with the decorations of horse equipment, willingly used them, about which we have a few archaeological evidence (Kazansky M.M.).


Finds of horse and rider equipment among the early Slavs of the 254th-2019th centuries. Source: Kazansky M.M. Steppe traditions and Slavic weapons and horse equipment in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries / KSIA. Issue XNUMX. M., XNUMX

We have several more written testimonies that can be considered as some allusion to the Slavic cavalry.

The first is connected with the campaign of the expeditionary troops of the Stratilatus Priscus in 600, in the very heart of the Avar "state". During which there were several, most likely, horse battles with the Avars. Victory remained with the Romans. Finally, the Avars, having gathered their forces on the Tisse River, tried to take revenge. The troops at the disposal of the Avars consisted of Avars, Bulgars and Gepids, and separately from a large army of Slavs. In this battle, the tributary Slavs, who lived with the Avars in the interfluve of the Tisza and Danube rivers, could fight on foot, and perhaps not.

Close to this is the semi-legendary message that the Slavs - sons born from the Avar rapists, Slavs, could not tolerate such mockery and opposed the Avars. In this case, we are interested in the question of whether they have mastered the skills of horsemen or not.

It seems that such a hypothesis should be dismissed. Firstly, there is no doubt that the Slavs, even in a foot battle, could inflict damage on the Avars, Kagan Bayan claimed that he "suffered severely from them." The victories under the leadership of the first Slavic king Samo were also associated with the fact that the Bulgars riders who rebelled against the Avars became the free or unwitting allies of the Slavs. But the Slavs carried out the battles themselves, nowhere is it said about the allies.

Secondly, no sources later report on the Slavs fighting on horseback in the west during the period under review, and, as we saw above, the Slavs borrow spurs from the west.

And, thirdly, the life of the Slavs-tributaries was carried out within the framework of the clan, and the child born from violence had one way: to be recognized by the clan or not, i.e. perish. It raises great doubts that the ruthless "ethical norms" of the nomads dictated them any obligations in relation to the "slaves", not members of their own kind. Even the Lombard Duchess Romilda, who surrendered the city of Forum Julia (Friul) to the Kagan in 610, was raped and impaled by the Avars.

The collected archaeological evidence speaks of an extremely small influence of nomads on the military affairs of the early Slavs (Kazansky M.M.).

We emphasize that, as in our days, military technologies, sources of raw materials for them were seriously guarded by their owners. We wrote about this in an article on "VO" "The clan and military organization of the early Slavs of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries.".

As for the acquaintance with the specifics of equestrian combat, in particular with archery, nomads taught this to their children and children who fell into slavery in a certain nomad family from an early age. About which we have direct evidence in later sources about the Hungarians. At the same time, of course, the child slave was completely incorporated into the nomadic structure, occupying its own niche in status, but externally not differing from its masters in any way.

Thus, the early Slavs, who were in close contact with the nomads, could not find a professional equestrian army.

Departing a little from the topic, let's say that professional horse troops appear among different Slavic peoples with the emergence of early feudalism, when society is divided into plowing and fighting. These elements can be partially seen in Croatia and Serbia, mostly in Poland and the Czech Republic, which are influenced by their western neighbors, and, of course, in Russia since the end of the XNUMXth century, but not earlier.

Now let us consider the last controversial evidence of the Slavic cavalry at the end of the XNUMXth century.

At the end of the 1th century, after a campaign against the 30st Bulgarian state, Justinian II resettled XNUMX thousand Slavic warriors with their families, led by Prince Nebul, to the territory of Asia Minor, to Bithynia, the Opsikii theme. Vasileus wanted to concentrate a powerful army on the key border for Byzantium.

We do not know about any cavalry units of the Slavs within the state of the Proto-Bulgarians, moreover, even Leo VI the Wise (866-912) divided the tactics and weapons of the Slavs and Bulgarians, emphasizing that the difference between the latter and the Hungarians lies only in the adoption of the Christian faith.

Such power allowed the mad basileus Justinian II to break the world with the Arabs and start hostilities. In 692 the Slavs defeated the Saracen army at Sevastopol in Primorsky. What kind of army was at that moment, foot or horse, we can only guess.

The only evidence of the weapons of the Slavs who moved to Asia Minor is the message about the quiver of Prince Nibul, and this information can be explained in two ways, since the bow and arrows are weapons of both horsemen and infantry.

It seems that the victory of the Slavs over the Arabs, as well as the subsequent bribery of their leader by the Arabs, is due to the fact that the army was really very large. As the Slavs went to the Arabs in 692, Usman b. Al-Walid defeated the Romans in Armenia with 4 thousand forces, as a result of which Armenia passed under the vassalage of the Caliph.

Given the specifics of the Arab front, it is possible that the troops who arrived could have been assigned to the cavalry by the Byzantines, but, most likely, the overwhelming part of the Slavic army remained on foot.

We emphasize once again that the very arrival of such a powerful military masses could significantly change the alignment of forces on the borders with Syria, even if they remained on foot.


Slav on the eastern border of Byzantium. End of the XNUMXth century - the beginning of the VIII century. Drawing by the author

The question of the emergence of cavalry (cavalry) among sedentary peoples is not easy and remains largely controversial.

When researchers write about the Slavic cavalry in the VI-VIII centuries, and not about the use of horses as a means of transportation, it seems to me that the moment of complete discrepancy of the Slavic society with a structure that could contain or exhibit a horse army is not taken into account. It was a clan system (a community without primitiveness). Rod fights together, flees together, there is no place for heroism associated with personal death. Responsibility for the condition of the clan is higher than personal heroism, which means that, in relation to the horse, everyone fights either on foot or on horseback (like nomads).

In such a structure, there is no opportunity to acquire the professional skills of a rider, sufficient not for movement, but for battle, only to the detriment of the economic activity of the clan, especially from the ethnic groups of farmers. However, here the Slavs are no exception, and the Goths (tribe) and the Franks, and the Gepids, Eruls, Lombards, and finally, the Saxons - Germanic ethnic groups, standing at different stages of development of pre-state structures - all, for the most part, were foot soldiers:

“For a long time the Franks and Saxons fought on foot,” wrote F. Cardini, “and horses were used as transport. This custom was quite widespread for various reasons. The main reason was that the advantage of cavalry, especially light cavalry, had not yet become a generally recognized and indisputable fact. "

The emergence of a chiefdom and a squad, standing outside the tribal organization, contributes to the appearance of horsemen among sedentary peoples, but for the early Slavs this is not necessary to talk about.

Let's say about the necessary resources for maintaining the cavalry.

In the "Strategicon" of Mauritius, an entire chapter is devoted to equipping the rider, equipping the horse, providing it: "How to arm an equestrian stratiote and what should be purchased as needed." Equipping one rider with his full support required substantial sums. For the Roman Empire, it cost enormous financial stress.

We observe a similar situation among the nomads, neighbors and rulers of a number of Slavic tribes. Nomads seize profitable places (cities), resettle the Byzantine handicraft population to the territory of the Avar Kaganate, “torture” not only neighboring tribes, but also the Roman Empire with tributes, all this went to support, first of all, the equestrian army-people. 60 thousand horsemen in lamenar armor, according to the message about this event ("they say"), which Menander the Protector wrote down, set off on a campaign against the Sklavins. Let us repeat ourselves, according to Menander's retelling. This huge army of Avars, including servants and auxiliary forces, should have consisted of at least 120 thousand people and the same number of horses.

The maintenance of the army of natural horsemen was expensive, whose entire existence is life on horseback, in contrast to sedentary peoples.

Slavic society at this stage did not have such resources to support the cavalry. Subsistence farming, handicrafts, also within the family, the influence of climatic conditions and external invasions in no way made it possible to allocate resources for excesses.

But in more favorable climatic conditions for life and management, in Greece of the XNUMXth century, the Slavic tribes have more serious weapons and even units, divided by types of weapons, not to mention the masters who are able to forge weapons and create siege machines.

Considering all of the above, we can say that during the period under review, the early Slavs did not have cavalry as a kind of troops.

The data we have allow us to say only that the period of the VI-VIII, and, possibly, the IX century. was a period in the development of the tactics of the early Slavs "from the mob to the ranks."

Sources and literature:

Leo VI the Wise. Leo tactics. The publication was prepared by V.V. Kuchma. SPb., 2012.
Paul the Deacon. History of the Lombards // Monuments of medieval Latin literature of the IV - IX centuries Per. D.N. Rakov M., 1970.
Procopius of Caesarea. War with the Goths / Translation by S.P. Kondratiev. T.I. M., 1996.
Saxon Annalist. Chronicle 741-1139 Translation and comments by I. V. Dyakonov M., 2012.
Codex of ancient written news about the Slavs. T.II. M., 1995.
Strategicon of Mauritius / Translation and commentary by V.V. Kuchma. SPb., 2003.
Theophylact Simokatta. History / Translated by S.P.Kondratyev. M., 1996.
Ivanov Vch. V., Toporov V.N. Research in the field of Slavic antiquities. M., 1974.
Kazansky M.M. Steppe traditions and Slavic weapons and horse equipment in the 254th-2019th centuries / CSIA. Issue XNUMX.M., XNUMX.
Cardini F. The origins of medieval chivalry. M., 1987.
Kirpichnikov A.N. Old Russian weapons. Equipment of a rider and a riding horse in Russia in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries.
Archeology of the USSR. The collection of archaeological sources / Under the general editorship of academician B.A.Rybakov. M., 1973.
A.K. Nefyodkin The tactics of the Slavs in the VI century. (according to the testimony of early Byzantine authors) // Byzantine time book № 87. 2003.
Rybakov B.A. Paganism of the ancient Slavs. M., 1981.


To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
The siege of the Slavs in the VI-VII centuries
How the ancient Slavs took the city
As the early Slavs actually fought
Was the squad among the early Slavs?
The clan and military organization of the early Slavs of the VI — VIII centuries
Slavs and the First Bulgarian Kingdom in the VII-VIII centuries
The origin of the Slavs
Slavs and the beginning of the Great Migration
Slavs and Avars in the VI century
Slavs on the Danube in the VI century
Slavs, Avars and Byzantium. The beginning of the VII century
Slavs on the threshold of statehood
The first state of the Slavs
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 August 2020 05: 18 New
    +2
    Here is a real gift !!!
    Eduard is sincerely glad to read you, thank you for not forgetting us !!!
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      19 August 2020 09: 57 New
      +7
      Vladislav welcome!
      It took a long time to prepare - the topic is not simple)))
    2. Vend
      Vend 19 August 2020 10: 54 New
      +7
      The Slavic cavalry has been mentioned in chronographs since the XNUMXth century. Fiofilakt Samokatta in "History" wrote:
      "7. (1) On the twelfth day, the stratigus, tying up the ships, crossed the river. Hearing that Ardagast had sent hordes of Slavs to hunt for booty, [Priscus] launched an offensive at midnight. (2) Ardagast, having said goodbye to dreams and waking up from sleep because of the growing noise, jumped on a bare horse and fled. The barbarian stumbled upon the Romans and, getting off his horse, preferred the battle face to face. "
      It shows well that the Slavs were riders, and dismounting Ardogast does not mean that he did not know how to fight on horseback, his horse was not under the saddle, and the Romans could have been on foot. And fighting face to face means fighting on equal terms.

      8. (4) And so Tatimer began his journey to Byzantium. On the sixth day, he (Tatimer - A.K.) ran into the Slavs and suddenly found himself in trouble: in the middle of the day, when he was setting up camp without fear and caution, and the horses were grazing on the grass, barbarians attacked. (5) Of course, the alarm went up; since the Romans were without horses, Tatimer rushed forward with a few [horsemen] and, finding himself next to the barbarians, was at mortal risk. Unable to withstand the battle face to face, he fled; several stray arrows overtook him, and he barely escaped danger. (6) But the Romans appeared on foot, rescued Tatimer, and finally hand-to-hand combat with the Slavs began. "
      This clearly indicates that the Slavs fought on horseback and could resist the Romans. Only cavalry detachments could attack suddenly. If it were an ambush, then all the troops would join the battle. After all, only the help of the foot soldiers saved the Romans.
      Procopius of Caesarea:
      “About 20 days later, as they (the Goths - A.K ..) took the port, city and harbor, Martin and Valerian arrived, bringing with them 1600 horsemen. Most of them were Huns, Slavs and Antes, who have their dwellings on the other side of the Danube River, not far from its bank ”(264, p. 234).
      Procopius of Caesarea names the Slavs and the Antes among the horsemen, thereby equating them with the Huns. The Huns are known to have been horsemen.

      Ammianus Marcellin, lists the tribes of Alans, and calls them "horsemen", while counting among them Budins, Gelons and Melanchlens, if we rely on the research of S.A. Grinev, then these are Slavs Buzhan, Galician and Mohyla Dnieper (185, p. 9).

      Rђ RІRѕS, John of Ephesus, equates the Slavs to the Romans: “They (the Slavs - AK ..) became rich, have a lot of gold, silver, herds of horses and weapons, and learned to wage war better than the Romans themselves” (175 vol. 7, p. 550).

      Therefore, an indirect conclusion, the Slavs could surpass the Romans (Byzantines), both on foot and on horseback.

      In the book History of Byzantium. Volume 1 Publishing house "Science" Moscow 1967. The war of the Slavs in the VI century is described.

      "War 550-551. began with the invasion of the Slavs into Illyricum and Thrace (spring 550). Three thousand Slavs crossed the Danube and, without encountering resistance, also crossed the Maritsa. Then they split into two parts (1800 and 1200 people). Although these detachments were much inferior in strength to the Byzantine army sent against them, thanks to a surprise attack they managed to defeat him. Having won a victory, one of the Slavic detachments then entered the battle with the Byzantine commander Asvad. Despite the fact that under his command there were "numerous excellent horsemen ..., and without much difficulty the Slavs put them to flight" 18. Having taken a siege of a number of Byzantine fortresses, they also capture the seaside city of Topir, which was guarded by a Byzantine military garrison. "

      It takes horsemen to put the horsemen to flight. Foot units cannot flee. Horse units can always retreat and regroup. A pedestrian cannot catch up with a horse. As we see this confirmation of the statement of John of Ephesus.
      Helmold has a repeated description of the Slavic cavalry in the "Slavic Chronicle".
      It should also be mentioned about the Slavic gods, for example, a white horse was an attribute of Svyantovit.
      The Ruyans believed that Svantevit was riding this horse to battle the enemies of his sanctuary and his land. Sakon Grammatik writes about this

      Let's turn to archeology.
      In Slavic burials, spurs have appeared since the XNUMXth century, for example, in the burial at Hohenberg in Styria; the most interesting specimens were found in Croatian burials discovered near Biskupin, Vrlika and Skradin in Dalmatia. Spurs are the attachment of a warrior rider.
      Inside the reconstructed Slavic fortress of the 9-10th centuries. Raddush has an interesting museum that presents the entire long and rich history of these. Collections of ancient Slavic finds and more ancient Lusatian culture were especially interested. So there is a Slavic figure of a horseman.
      It can be concluded that the Slavs had cavalry. She was probably in the formative period. And when faced with the heavy cavalry of Byzantium, there were not many chances of victory. Of course, this applies more to the southern and western Slavs. The northern and eastern Slavs, due to their territorial residence, developed other military directions, tactics of foot combat and shipbuilding.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 19 August 2020 11: 16 New
        +6
        Finally, a substantive commentary from a supporter of the cavalry among the Slavs

        1. Ardagast does not fight on horseback, he only flees. Secondly, in the description he is alone, and the word "cavalry" requires a certain number of people. Thirdly, it is necessary to separate the cavalry and the traveling infantry. it is very important.
        2. In the case of Tatimer, there is no mention of the Romans fighting an equestrian enemy
        3. John of Ephesus does not say directly that the Slavs fought on horseback. We just got rich in horses.
        4. Procopius from Caesarea never equated the Slavs with the Huns, he just listed them in one sentence. Could the Slavs form cavalry units in the Byzantine army? Yes, they could in theory, but this does not mean that the actual Slavic tribes certainly had cavalry. Federates served for many years and often did not return to their homeland.
        5. The most interesting thing. Hike 550. It has long attracted the attention of historians - the Slavic detachment acted too successfully and confidently. Gindin and Litavrin see the work of cavalry here and I am inclined to admit that this is quite possible.
        But there are other problems. If in 550 there was cavalry, where did it disappear then? Some believe that the core of the hypothetical detachment of the Slavs could be the Lombard exiles of Ildigis or the Slavs who served in his squad. Lombard prince Ildigis fled to the Gepids in 539 and they settled him among the Slavs.
        My explanation. in the middle of the 6th century, the Slavs could indeed have cavalry, which was in the inception phase. This process, as well as the rudiments of the druzhina culture, was interrupted by the Avar pogrom.
        1. Vend
          Vend 19 August 2020 12: 23 New
          +3
          Have you read it carefully?
          Tatimer rushed forward with a few [horsemen] and, finding himself alongside the barbarians, was at mortal risk. Unable to withstand the battle face to face, he fled; several stray arrows overtook him, and he barely escaped danger.
          According to John of Ephesus, I indicated that this is an indirect conclusion.
          Procopius of Caesarea bringing with him 1600 riders... Most of them were rUnny, Slavs and Antes how does it not equate? He clearly points to this, if the Slavs were foot infantry, then the axes would have arrived not on horseback, but on carts. About infantry on horseback is a fiction. It is not economical to put the infantry on a horse, for example, 6 people and one horse are more logical on a cart. The cavalry did not disappear, on the contrary it developed. The princes' squad was on horseback, the boyar squad was basically the same, the city militia was already on foot, the simple militia was also on foot. How can you make military raids on the steppe without cavalry? But our ancestors not only sat in the hailstones, but also went to the steppe people themselves and very successfully. Direct evidence is easily found in archeology. and later in the 13th century, it was in Russia that wheel spurs were invented, which were then adopted in Europe.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 19 August 2020 12: 36 New
            +3
            Well, there are no mounted Slavs in the episode with Tatimer. Simply no.
            Procopius of Caesarea bringing with him 1600 horsemen

            Does not equate, but calls the detachment horsemen. For me, this is an argument rather in favor of the cavalry among the Slavs. But in this case they are federates. Therefore, you need to be careful in this case too. The federates undoubtedly fight according to their methods, but they themselves partly perceive the manner of fighting from the army in which they serve. The process is two-way
            About infantry on horseback is a fiction

            This is a fairly well-documented thing. From the army of Svyatoslav to the Anglo-Saxon squads.
            It is not economical to put the infantry on a horse, it is more logical on a cart

            mobility
            The cavalry did not disappear, on the contrary, it developed.

            Not. The cavalry disappears completely from the pages of historians and appears very slowly
            The squad of the princes was mounted, the boyar squad was mostly also

            And nothing that from the Avar invasion to the equestrian princely squads of 400-500 years?
            You are not at all confused by the huge time gap.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 19 August 2020 11: 33 New
        +9
        Quote: Wend
        It takes riders to put the horsemen to flight

        I think, for example, the Roman legionaries would politely disagree with you. smile
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 19 August 2020 11: 41 New
          +6
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          I think, for example, the Roman legionaries would politely disagree with you.

          As well as hoplites and landsknechts too.
        2. Vend
          Vend 19 August 2020 12: 08 New
          +1
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Quote: Wend
          It takes riders to put the horsemen to flight

          I think, for example, the Roman legionaries would politely disagree with you. smile

          Where would they go)) remember the battle with the Parthians.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 19 August 2020 12: 20 New
            +5
            Battle of Carrh? Episode. There are a lot of examples when the infantry puts the cavalry to flight, eyes run wide.
      3. fuxila
        fuxila 19 August 2020 18: 26 New
        +2
        Helmold has a repeated description of the Slavic cavalry in the "Slavic Chronicle".
        It should also be mentioned about the Slavic gods, for example, a white horse was an attribute of Svyantovit.
        The Ruyans believed that Svantevit was riding this horse to battle the enemies of his sanctuary and his land. Sakon Grammatik writes about this

        Helmold and Saxon Grammaticus really write about the Slavic cavalry, but this is a completely different period - this is the XII century, or rather its second half, i.e. 600 years later !!! And the author directly says about it:
        Departing a little from the topic, let's say that professional horse troops appear among different Slavic peoples with the emergence of early feudalism, when society is divided into plowing and fighting. These elements can be partially seen in Croatia and Serbia, mostly in Poland and the Czech Republic, which are influenced by their western neighbors, and, of course, in Russia since the end of the XNUMXth century, but not earlier.
      4. fuxila
        fuxila 19 August 2020 18: 37 New
        +2
        In the book History of Byzantium. Volume 1 Publishing house "Science" Moscow 1967. The war of the Slavs in the VI century is described.

        Anatoly, why are you referring to the "History of Byzantium", because this paragraph from the description of the war 550-551. taken from Procopius of Caesarea "War with the Goths", which you yourself quoted earlier. If you are interested in the history of the Slavs, then it is better to read this author in its entirety, very fascinating reading.
      5. Machito
        Machito 20 August 2020 14: 05 New
        0
        The siege of Topir is written in the book Primordial Rus.
  2. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 19 August 2020 05: 19 New
    -8
    Another delirium from a gradual (or sedate) farmer. And what about the griffin stamp for Western consumers? wink
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 19 August 2020 06: 06 New
      12
      Can you justify?
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 19 August 2020 06: 19 New
        -8
        [/ Quote]
        Quote: Korsar4
        Can you justify?
        [quote] Until the period when, within the framework of one or another early social organization, there was no understanding about the possibility of obtaining a surplus product not by productive means, but by means of capture, military "business" has always been continuation of production capabilities ethnos. Can you comment on the nonsense?
        It's obvious to me that the opposite is true. He seems to be writing in a foreign language, not Russian Svidomo.
        When, within the framework of one or another early social organization, an understanding arose about the possibility of obtaining a surplus product not by productive means, but by means of capture, military "business" became continuation of the production capabilities of the ethnos.
        Honestly, I tried to read the previous articles, but attempts to suck the thought out of my finger and unsuccessfully teach it cause irritation. And the topic is interesting, but the preparation of the author behind the ear.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 19 August 2020 06: 23 New
          +3
          That is, you want to say "production capabilities were a continuation of military affairs"?

          If so, I disagree.
          1. Mavrikiy
            Mavrikiy 19 August 2020 06: 26 New
            -2
            Quote: Korsar4
            That is, you want to say "production capabilities were a continuation of military affairs"?
            If so, I disagree.

            I wrote:military "business" became a continuation of production capabilitiesDo you have vision problems or do you understand what you are reading? request
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 19 August 2020 06: 30 New
              +5
              And how does the word “vice versa” construct a phrase?

              Do you want to talk about my problems? It will be difficult to do this, especially without knowing the information.
              1. Mavrikiy
                Mavrikiy 19 August 2020 06: 50 New
                -9
                Quote: Korsar4
                And how does the word “vice versa” construct a phrase?

                Elementary Watson.
                Until that period ....... military "business" by the continuation of the production capabilities of the ethnic group
                There was no understanding that it was possible to plunder, and the war had already replaced production. fool
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 19 August 2020 11: 12 New
          +8
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          Can you comment on the nonsense?

          Whose?
          If you meant the author's text, then this is not nonsense, but a completely intelligible judgment.
          Until the period when, within the framework of one or another early social organization, there was no understanding about the possibility of obtaining a surplus product not by productive means, but by means of capture, military "business" was always a continuation of the production capabilities of an ethnic group.

          Material benefits, including weapons, can be obtained in two ways - to do it yourself or to take it away from a neighbor. Until a particular society began to plunder its neighbors, it had to make do (including in terms of weapons) with what it produced itself. What's incomprehensible?
          If you meant your own text, then if you please, I will comment.
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          When, within the framework of one or another early social organization, an understanding arose about the possibility of obtaining a surplus product not by productive means, but by means of capture, military "business" became a continuation of the production capabilities of an ethnic group.

          In other words, in your opinion, military science becomes a continuation of the production capabilities of an ethnic group only with the advent of the understanding that material goods can not only be produced, but also captured? And what was it before that? How did they fight if they did not make weapons themselves, and they had not yet thought of taking them away from others? You know, weapons are not just lying around in the forest, at least in any significant quantities.
          So about "nonsense", there is an opinion that your comment fits into this category than the author's text. smile
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 19 August 2020 20: 04 New
            +2
            You know, weapons are not lying around in the forest just like that, at least in any significant quantities.
            Lying around. Especially in "shooters". I diagnose - an opponent, an old "dumer" laughing
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 August 2020 06: 20 New
        13
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        Another delirium from a gradual (or sedate) farmer. And what about the griffin stamp for Western consumers? wink

        Quote: Korsar4
        Can you justify?

        No, it won't, but the beginning of the forum has already ruined an interesting article.
        I am simply killed by the sincere belief of such people in the "armored cavalry troops" of the ancient Slavs, oh no - these are the "super-duper-aryans-light-brown-slavs" named after Samsonov! wink
        Which on bicycles from Hyperboria itself bend the enlightened Empires of trilobites and Chinese androids!
        Good morning!
        1. Mavrikiy
          Mavrikiy 19 August 2020 06: 29 New
          -11 qualifying.
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          No, he can't,

          belay Already substantiated. hi
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Good morning!

          Good night, our unctuous!
        2. antivirus
          antivirus 19 August 2020 08: 55 New
          +2
          that's the main thing - were tribal alliances (Or) states? the organization of the life of the people-tribe creates military associations
          the bias in races with tambourines is understandable - the chroniclers described what they saw - arriving with or without horses.
          WHAT WAS THEIR MOTIVATION TO COME AND WIN? FOR WHOM? - THE STATE OF THE SLAVS WAS BEFORE RURIK (9 CENTURY)? OR ?!!!!!
        3. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 19 August 2020 20: 11 New
          +1
          Bicycles are out of fashion these days! Nowadays it is fashionable - electric scooters! These "two-wheeled equids" are ready to kill !!! Although, "bicycle" also "harness" lately.
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      19 August 2020 10: 07 New
      +8
      Why don't you like the farmers?
      Are my ancestors Cossacks all from the same farm? laughing
      Are you a direct hereditary tradesman? not in the nobility? lol
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 19 August 2020 11: 16 New
        +6
        Edward, how did you understand what this commentator wanted to say? How did you find your way in this muddy stream of consciousness? I can't seem to pick up any logical connection between the antivirus comment and your answer. Is this mental magic on your side? smile
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          19 August 2020 13: 07 New
          +6
          Michael,
          he probably wanted to humiliate the social group "farmers, villagers, peasants"
          those. 90% -95% of the population of our country, whose ancestors a long time ago or quite recently from farms, villages and villages.
          laughing
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 19 August 2020 20: 20 New
            +1
            Will explain. This commentator observes any TI material. Let's take pity on him, in his "unconventional" crying , after all, Clea is still a woman!
  3. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 19 August 2020 06: 17 New
    +1
    I have a twofold idea of ​​the article.
    On the one hand, it is impossible to perceive it as a kind of historically truthful narrative, manipulating the links and statements of unidentified persons. Rather, it is a semblance of a legend. It is no secret to anyone that the history of the Slavs (especially the Eastern ones) has been thoroughly cleansed. It is only from the Bible that we know "for certain" what words Jesus says at the Last Supper concerning the fact that one of the apostles will turn out to be his traitor, as well as the reaction to the words of Jesus of each of his disciples. By the way, I have heard conversations on the Soyuz channel from persons who present the events of twenty centuries ago as if they themselves were their participants.
    On the other hand, you can give the author (+) for diligence and collection of material.

    The key characteristic of such ANCIENT material, knowing with what zeal TODAY, the truth is being told to us not only from the West (and the East too), but also from our own leaders and their media:
    As a guess, you can make a guess ...

    hi
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 19 August 2020 06: 30 New
      +5
      Quote: ROSS 42
      As a guess, you can make a guess ...

      These are the things that are heard from the lips of different kinds of Ph.D. become automatically truths in the modern world, and any of your disagreements are not even taken into account, because you are not a Ph.D., not a "scientist-historian". request
      The paper will endure everything - you can sho hosh write about the barbaric Slavs, how they lived in the forest, prayed to the wheel and were so dense that they could not manage themselves, and they called foreigners ...
    2. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 19 August 2020 07: 02 New
      -9
      Quote: ROSS 42
      On the one hand, to perceive it as some kind of historically true story,

      What a compliment was shipped to the author. Undeserved. The article is rather a stream of consciousness, not clouded by the work of the mind. hi
    3. Undecim
      Undecim 19 August 2020 11: 23 New
      +9
      It is no secret to anyone that the history of the Slavs (especially the Eastern ones) has been thoroughly cleansed.
      Who cleaned, when, you can learn more. And then, to my shame, I missed this stage.
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 19 August 2020 12: 13 New
        -5
        Quote: Undecim
        Who cleaned, when, you can learn more.

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        I would like to get acquainted with the grounds for such a statement.

        I'm just too lazy to shovel materials to console your vanity. If you didn’t know, it doesn’t mean that nothing happened. Check out, I think the respondent is authoritative enough:
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 19 August 2020 12: 46 New
          +8
          Firstly, my pride is completely useless here, and secondly, what does the painter Glazunov have to do with history? We are not discussing the history of painting.
        2. kalibr
          kalibr 19 August 2020 16: 21 New
          +2
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Check it out, I think the respondent is authoritative enough

          Even in painting he has so many blunders - Mom, do not grieve!
        3. kalibr
          kalibr 19 August 2020 16: 24 New
          +2
          Quote: ROSS 42
          I'm just too lazy to shovel materials

          Is it really too lazy to work for the good of the people? To enlighten in this way the masses languishing in the darkness of ignorance? After all, it is said in the Gospel of Matthew (Ch. 7, v. 7-8): “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock, and they will open it for you ... Well - knock, knock, knock ...
    4. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 19 August 2020 11: 28 New
      10
      Quote: ROSS 42
      It is no secret to anyone that the history of the Slavs (especially the Eastern ones) has been thoroughly cleansed

      I would like to get acquainted with the grounds for such a statement. Specifically: where, when, how and, most importantly, why?
      For me personally, it is not a secret only that in some circles ridiculous and absolutely groundless rumors about such "clean-ups" are being spread. The goals pursued by their distributors are quite obvious to me: the first is to make money on the implementation of their delusional ideas among fellow citizens suffering from a complex of historical inferiority, the second, much more global, is to deprive the people of true history, knocking out, thereby, ideological the basis, the basis of its unity.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 19 August 2020 12: 20 New
        +5
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        I would like to get acquainted with the grounds for such a statement. Specifically: where, when, how and, most importantly, why?

        I would like to know that too. And - yes, most importantly - why? Why did no one cleanse the history of the British, the French ... Although it would not hurt anyone at all: wherever you dig - then incest, then adultery, then poisoning, then imprisonment ... Either Catholics slaughter Protestants, then Protestants Catholics ...
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 19 August 2020 20: 46 New
          +2
          Either Catholics slaughter Protestants, then Protestants Catholics ...
          And only the Holy Slavic protoaries watch the course of the battle from the orbit of the Vimans, occasionally spitting into the European rag-tag.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 19 August 2020 20: 58 New
            +2
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            And only the Holy Slavic protoaries watch the course of the battle from the orbit of the Vimans, occasionally spitting into the European rag-tag.

            And then the European riffraff of these mighty protoriarians, or already descendants, fools like kittens, substitute history for them, and they can't do anything about it. Cool! Needless to say .... and the vimanas ... Where are the vimanas, are they, rastak?
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 19 August 2020 22: 15 New
              +3
              Calm down, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Border is locked tight! For you personally, I will reveal the "Terrible Military Secret"! Not a word to the Masters of the West !!!
              Vimanas are slightly submerged "Poseidons"!
          2. Hantengri
            Hantengri 19 August 2020 22: 47 New
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Either Catholics slaughter Protestants, then Protestants Catholics ...
            And only the Holy Slavic protoaries watch the course of the battle from the orbit of the Vimans, occasionally spitting into the European rag-tag.

            Why spit, yeah! Spitting is ugly! They simply, squinting, sat on the bank of the river and meditated on the corpses passing by, reflecting on the frailty of life and softly humming: "Om mane padme hum.", Which, translated from the proto-Aryan, means: "I wonder at the river, but our pepelats stands on the side track! "

            PS Anton, thanks for the "Hat". Delivered. good
    5. Hantengri
      Hantengri 19 August 2020 12: 46 New
      +6
      Quote: ROSS 42
      It is no secret to anyone that the history of the Slavs (especially the Eastern ones) has been thoroughly cleansed.

      Can you prove it? It would be very interesting to find out: who cleared (names, passwords, attendance), when cleared, why cleared and get evidence for each person involved. And most importantly, I really want at least someone from the supporters of this theory of the world Slavophobic conspiracy to clearly, in detail, logically consistently describe the process of this purging.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 16: 56 New
        +6
        It would be very interesting to find out: who cleared (names, passwords, attendance), when cleared, why cleared and get evidence for each person involved. And most importantly, I really want at least someone from the supporters of this theory of the world Slavophobic conspiracy to clearly, in detail, logically consistently describe the process of this purging.

        Igor, they have all the moves recorded! laughing drinks
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 19 August 2020 22: 54 New
          +1
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          Igor, they have all the moves recorded!

          So, let them publish these records! Who is against! laughing
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 23: 24 New
            +2
            So, let them publish these records! Who is against!

            ... these recordings will be written with the contents of a cesspool, as in the film "Perot of the Marquis de Sade". Have not looked? Geoffrey Rush is gorgeous there! good I give a tooth. One hell, it hurts! drinks
  4. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 August 2020 06: 25 New
    10
    In such a structure, there is no opportunity to acquire the professional skills of a rider, sufficient not for movement, but for battle, only to the detriment of the economic activity of the clan, especially from the ethnic groups of farmers. However, here the Slavs are no exception, and the Goths (tribe) and the Franks, and the Gepids, Eruls, Lombards, and finally, the Saxons - Germanic ethnic groups, standing at different stages of development of pre-state structures - all, for the most part, were foot soldiers:

    On my own I propose to supplement the list with the early and middle Roman republic, ancient Athens and no less ancient Sparta !!!
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 19 August 2020 06: 31 New
      +5
      Are chariots from the Trojan War considered?
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 19 August 2020 07: 18 New
        11
        To some extent. However, one should not forget that the chariot's crew consisted of two people, a driver and, directly, a warrior, who, in fact, was an infantryman. The chariot seems to me to be a palliative at that moment in history, when in the regions of its use, the need for maneuverability on the battlefield was already there, but there were no horses capable of "carrying" and not "dragging along".
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 19 August 2020 07: 21 New
          +7
          An analogue of the BMP of our time?
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 19 August 2020 07: 24 New
            +8
            If he speaks about the Greeks - yes, if about the Egyptians - a separate branch of the army.
            1. Pike
              Pike 19 August 2020 07: 53 New
              +4
              Hmmm ... What about the oldest known chariots at the moment? We only know when and where they were (Sinashta, Urals, about 4 tons years ago). They were used by some "Indo-Europeans", of course, there is no question of the Slavs, they "got out of the swamps" later.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 19 August 2020 08: 04 New
                +6
                The question concerned the combat use of chariots.
              2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 August 2020 08: 31 New
                +7
                Quote: Pike
                Hmmm ... What about the oldest known chariots at the moment? We only know when and where they were (Sinashta, Urals, about 4 tons years ago). They were used by some "Indo-Europeans", of course, there is no question of the Slavs, they "got out of the swamps" later.

                How is a war cart different from a war chariot?
                And why did the ancient Greeks use runners as messengers?
                And also the phenomenon of "equestrian" estates of ancient Rome and Greece! In a simplified format, initially the owner of the "horse" in his rights was equal to the owner of the "warship" !!! Whether it is simple !!!
                About the Slavic swamps !!! The digger is deeper and wider! Persians, Samrats, Scythians and Roksolans - but are they related to the Slavs?
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 19 August 2020 20: 38 New
                  +3
                  How is a war cart different from a war chariot?
                  And how do you imagine a "battle cart"? And what animal is it dragging ??? Not otherwise, "fighting beavers"! laughing
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 August 2020 20: 52 New
                    +1
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    How is a war cart different from a war chariot?
                    And how do you imagine a "battle cart"? And what animal is it dragging ??? Not otherwise, "fighting beavers"! laughing

                    The flanks were covered with cats on dogs !!! laughing
                    The Aryan "war" chariots had wheels made of wood cuts, and bulls were used as traction power! But they were the forerunners of the "Vanburgs or walk cities" history is silent.
                    The Assyrians fought Ramses II on four wheeled heavy chariots and lost to a light two-wheeled Egyptian.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 19 August 2020 21: 12 New
                      +3
                      on dogs!
                      I sense again libel on dogs; am
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 23: 32 New
                        +2
                        I feel again slandering dogs

                        On cats ?? belay
                      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 August 2020 04: 09 New
                        +2
                        Cats on cats? Some kind of Thessalian phalanx !!! repeat
          2. Catfish
            Catfish 19 August 2020 11: 00 New
            +5
            ... if about the Egyptians - a separate branch of the army.

            So it is the motorized infantry, it is on the BMP and rides. And the Greeks, you see. they were used by the piece. And so - everything is one. wink
          3. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 19 August 2020 11: 29 New
            +4
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            if about the Egyptians - a separate branch of the army.

            Tank armies of the Wehrmacht? smile
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 11: 55 New
              +7
              Tank armies of the Wehrmacht?

              yeah, remember the anecdote about the essay about elephants? An English schoolboy wrote: "The use of elephants in business." French schoolchild: "The intimate life of elephants." German student: "Elephants are the predecessors of tanks." Well, etc. And yet, yes, Russia is the homeland of elephants. drinks
  5. Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 19 August 2020 10: 55 New
    +4
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    and no less ancient Sparta !!!

    Yes, that's right. There was even a special detachment in Sparta - ἱππεῖς (horsemen), which, as paradoxical as it sounds, was exclusively on foot and fought as hoplites, apparently, as a "royal guard".
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 11: 47 New
      +5
      Yes, that's right. There was even a special detachment in Sparta - ἱππεῖς (horsemen), which, as paradoxical as it sounds, was exclusively on foot and fought as hoplites, apparently, as a "royal guard".

      Dear colleagues, hello!
      Sergei, I remembered about another detachment of hoplites, from Thebes, which was held together, perhaps, even by "stronger ties" than generic ones. lol You understand who I mean. wink They beat everyone, even the most brutal Spartans, thanks to which, EMNIP, the phrase appeared "during the war, the laws sleep". laughing

      About the article: 1. I am very glad that Edward returned as an author. 2. The article seems to be about simple things, but we do not think about them, for the most part. On reading, the whole picture of the time appears. 3. Despite the mass of material, it is surprisingly easy to read. 4. Working with sources is associated with the author's own conclusions. This, my friends, whatever one may say, is an indicator, in a good way. hi
      Edward, I bow! good Honestly - not "my topic", but I read with sincere pleasure. drinks
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 19 August 2020 11: 57 New
        +4
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        Sergei, I remembered about another detachment of hoplites, from Thebes, which was held together, perhaps, even by "stronger ties" than generic ones.

        Greetings Nikolay,
        Oh, they were generally terrible guys.
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        They beat everyone, even the most brutal Spartans

        And the Spartans in "this business" themselves were still the masters.
        It's a pity the time machine has not yet been invented, I would like to see this fight. lol
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 12: 07 New
          +4
          for this fight.

          Bearded teddy bears in strawberry syrup? wink laughing Joke. drinks Evil blue special forces on both sides. Measured by force, who is more tolerant. It was certainly better not to be captured ... wassat
          By the way, I found out about poor Romilda only now. No. Some vile story ... Disgusting, to be honest. negative I mean, how it was. Although in this material (link below), there is probably a somewhat "romantic version". It seems that everything was more cynical. request
          https://hystory.mediasole.ru/dlya_gercogini_avary_vozveli_kol_govorya_chto_on_budet_ey_vmesto_muzha
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 19 August 2020 12: 16 New
            +2
            Quote: Pane Kohanku
            It was certainly better not to be captured ...

            The main thing here was not to show the "enemy "'s back, otherwise something worse than captivity could happen. laughing
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 13: 02 New
              +5
              The main thing here was not to show the "enemy "'s back, otherwise something worse than captivity could happen.

              people do not change. Give them free rein - they will show their cruelty as soon as they can. EMNIP, almost the only war where prisoners of war were treated relatively humanely (and not always!) Is the Russian-Japanese war. But, as Mozheiko rightly writes, "the Japanese wanted to show their civilization to the European peoples." In relation to, for example, the Chinese, humanism did not spread. And when the students surpassed their teachers in 41-42, they rejected all norms. request
      2. Edward Vashchenko
        19 August 2020 13: 09 New
        +3
        Nikolay greetings,
        worked for a long time on the article,
        tried to cram a lot of information into a small format.
        wink
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 13: 28 New
          +7
          Nikolay greetings,

          Hello Edward! hi
          long worked on the article

          that's what I thought. drinks As Mao Zedong wrote to the disgraced Marshal Peng Dehuai (a principled and decent person!): "You don't write for a long time, and then you send a letter in twenty thousand hieroglyphs." yes
          tried to cram a lot of information into a small format.

          You did it! In my personal opinion, meticulous work has been done. I think that the material differs from other publications in the "history" section in terms of its message, structure and general content. The "trademark" that every author has, you personally have this one. Style, presentation, sources, opinion - your handwriting. Some minor flaws are possible, but this is insignificant and correctable. what
          From my own feeling, I can say that, reading deeply, whole images appear before my eyes, and the general picture is captured. So I look forward to continuing! hi
  • Catfish
    Catfish 19 August 2020 07: 23 New
    +7
    Good morning friends. smile
    Happy Holidays to everyone! Today is the Apple Savior. fool
    Thanks to Edward for the new article. hi
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 19 August 2020 07: 28 New
      +7
      Transfiguration.
      I join in the congratulations!
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      19 August 2020 10: 00 New
      +5
      Konstantin, good morning

      Happy Holiday!
  • ee2100
    ee2100 19 August 2020 07: 46 New
    -2
    For students of Ph.D. this is authority and arguing with him is more precious! But thank God this is not a university for you. And the fact that the article is full of strains and a complete lack of logic and, as a result, contradicts common sense.
    It is really good that the author tried to understand such an issue as the battle tactics of the ancient Slavs. But what came of it? Some kind of informational mess mixed with "necessary" quotes and pictures by the author.
    It would probably be better to leave only the drawings - they do not cause any complaints. The artist sees it that way.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 August 2020 17: 30 New
      +3
      Damn blah blah!
      Is there something essentially to the Author?
      The points!
      I disagree ...
      1,2,3,4 ...
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 19 August 2020 17: 55 New
        -4
        Who do you represent here? Let's go to items 1,2,3, etc. And then I mb. YOU ARE OUR LOVE!
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 18: 13 New
        +5
        Is there something essentially to the Author?

        Vlad, congratulations on the title "twice unctuous you are ours." laughingdrinks Rzhu in a voice, but today "dissent" "stroked" you, so "stroked". Straight twice oily, against the grain.laughing
        Do you need it? Proving something to someone? wink drinks
        1. ee2100
          ee2100 19 August 2020 22: 47 New
          0
          I think that you shouldn't have written me in "disagreeing". The article "how the ancient Slavs fought" is this about? About tactics .. What the author tells about in the first lines of his article. The Slavs were hiding from the enemy in reservoirs - ha-ha, and wives, children, old people? And in the winter they were slaughtered under the ice? If, God forbid, Romey asks the child "where is dad?" And you think the child won't tell? This is where the expression "start the wave" came from. They started a wave on the reservoir and all the Sklavs got out. And not only.
          Second. The Slavs ambushed the enemy. When it's possible? Only when the enemy came to your land. Partisan option. Does the author present it as a combat tactic?
          Found in the Smolensk region spurs dating from a burial in a burial mound of the 400th-500th centuries, does not fit into the accepted parodigma, the spurs have aged XNUMX-XNUMX years. We are historians - we see so! But who explains to us that when buried in the early centuries, they take everything they need with them into another world? On the right not Vashchenko. Those. spurs thrown into the grave like garbage?
          The whole article and its discussion boils down to one thing - whether the Slavs had cavalry as a separate branch of the army. Clearly not. Separate units - yes. And what is there to argue? Cavalry, especially for the middle of the first millennium, is expensive.
          Members of the circle of noted historians sing praises to each other. Strictly to Krylov, "the cuckoo praises the rooster," and who is who - figure it out for yourself.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 23: 21 New
            +2
            Strictly to Krylov, "the cuckoo praises the rooster," and who is who - figure it out for yourself.

            Yes, with your deep permission, we ourselves will figure out which of us is who, critical You are our ... . hi (I return this for Vlad).
            Members of the circle of noted historians sing praises to each other.

            Uh, no, yours is not true! stop These are just normal people who have learned to respect each other and communicate without conflicts and showdown. Unlike 80% of visitors to a highly respected VO, for whom it is more important to throw it out on others incontinent content your rectum. fellow "There are many people - I don't see people!" (Diogenes). So, just in case. hi
            1. ee2100
              ee2100 20 August 2020 00: 04 New
              +1
              Essentially the text is "00". Has something jarred you? And thanks for that for unsubscribing. Chase "crap" is all yours. Doesn't "honor the uniform" allow you to look critically?
  • parusnik
    parusnik 19 August 2020 08: 27 New
    +7
    You probably have a somewhat generalized approach to this issue, not all Slavic tribes bred large herds of horses. Everything depended on the geographical conditions in which they lived; to a greater extent, the southern and eastern Slavs, who lived on the border with the steppe inhabitants or with states with numerous cavalry, were engaged in horse breeding. To protect themselves, they had to have cavalry units. The Slavs have used cavalry for a long time. Of course, it could not be as clearly organized and armed as the Byzantine one, but Procopius of Caesarea writes about its presence among the Slavs.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 19 August 2020 09: 37 New
      +6
      It's been a long time since Edward wrote on VO)
      In principle, the author has already voiced the main theses of the article. In general, they are not objectionable.
      On the little things:
      professional equestrian troops appear among different Slavic peoples with the emergence of early feudalism, when there is a division of society into plowing and fighting. These elements can be partially seen in Croatia and Serbia, mostly in Poland and the Czech Republic, which are influenced by their western neighbors, and, of course, in Russia since the end of the XNUMXth century, but not earlier.

      Why are the princely squads of the 12-13 centuries not considered a professional equestrian army?
      The squad can fight in a "crowd". As it was with the retinues of the Gauls described by Tacitus.

      Maybe the Germans?
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 19 August 2020 10: 01 New
        +5
        Why are the princely squads of the 12-13 centuries not considered a professional equestrian army?... By this time they had already formed ...
      2. Undecim
        Undecim 19 August 2020 11: 14 New
        +3
        "On the origin and location of the Germans" - Tacitus, tentatively - the end of the XNUMXst century. True, Tacitus himself never visited "Germany", but, nevertheless, his work is one of the main sources.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 19 August 2020 11: 40 New
          +4
          I also meant this work. Most likely an accidental error in the text of the article
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            19 August 2020 13: 57 New
            +5
            Denis,
            I welcome you.
            Gauls, Gauls, but not Tacitus, but Caesar)
            Solduria.
            Thanks for the help!
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 19 August 2020 14: 23 New
              +4
              Then it is clear.
              Thank you for clarification.
    2. Engineer
      Engineer 19 August 2020 09: 38 New
      +8
      Procopius of Caesarea does not write about the cavalry of the Sklavins and Antes. Some authors reconstruct its presence only on the basis of indirect signs.
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        19 August 2020 10: 03 New
        +7
        This is absolutely true.
        All the controversial aspects of the messages of early authors about the Slavic cavalry that have come down to us are discussed in the article, we have nothing else.
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 19 August 2020 10: 04 New
        +5
        Yes, he has mentions ... as an example and literally I can not cite, I do not remember ... But I agree, does not write in detail ..
    3. Edward Vashchenko
      19 August 2020 10: 04 New
      +5
      not all Slavic tribes bred large herds of horses

      There is absolutely no information about this in historical monuments.
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 19 August 2020 10: 53 New
        +3
        And somewhere it was indicated about "princely herds", although this mention refers to the 11th century, if I am not mistaken, and not to the period you mentioned ... In theory, they should have been, especially in areas bordering on nomads ... On the other hand, publicly -the economic structure of the Slavic tribes, could not yet afford such a luxury, in the described period ..
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 19 August 2020 10: 38 New
    +8
    I already began to forget what a red griffin looks like. smile
    Edward, my compliments, I am glad that you are with us again and thanks for the great material. According to the article itself, the only question that arose for me was already voiced by Denis, it's good that I first decided to read the comments:
    Quote: Engineer
    In principle, the author has already voiced the main theses of the article. In general, they are not objectionable.
    On the little things:
    professional equestrian troops appear among different Slavic peoples with the emergence of early feudalism, when there is a division of society into plowing and fighting. These elements can be partially seen in Croatia and Serbia, mostly in Poland and the Czech Republic, which are influenced by their western neighbors, and, of course, in Russia since the end of the XNUMXth century, but not earlier.
    Why are the princely squads of the 12-13 centuries not considered a professional equestrian army?

    In general, everything is clear and accessible, although, judging by some comments, not everyone. laughing
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 19 August 2020 10: 58 New
    +5
    Edward, welcome!
    Finally, tired of waiting!
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      19 August 2020 13: 13 New
      +4
      Sergey,
      good afternoon hi
  • kalibr
    kalibr 19 August 2020 11: 24 New
    +5
    Eduard's articles skillfully combine scientific and popular presentation. It is difficult, but he succeeds!
    1. Liam
      Liam 19 August 2020 11: 33 New
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Eduard's articles skillfully combine scientific and popular presentation. It is difficult, but he succeeds!

      It’s better not to be scientific. Science operates in other categories than ... admit ... it seems ... I see so ... since the Goths in the 5th century did this, then for sure the Slavs in the 8th century did the same ..and so on, of which 90% of the author's articles are made.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 19 August 2020 11: 44 New
        +6
        Here I can not agree. The main part of the author's articles is the analysis of narratives and archeology. He is not fond of comparative methods. If an analogy is given, then usually AFTER the phenomenon was recorded for the Slavs.
      2. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 19 August 2020 11: 54 New
        +2
        Quote: Liam
        It's better not to be scientific about science. Science operates in other categories than ... you can assume ... it seems ... I see it ... since the Goths in the 5th century did this, then for sure the Slavs in the 8th century did the same ... and other things like that of which 90% of the author's articles are made.

        It is interesting that the author of this passage himself, when I once tried to discuss with him on some issue, cited (attention!) His common sense as the main argument.
        1. Liam
          Liam 19 August 2020 12: 01 New
          -1
          Common sense has its role in assessing the reliability of historical events that have come down to us in the form in which they have come down. Very often in the descriptions of ancient historians there are fantastic things and common sense helps to cut off stories, hyperbole and propaganda in their works from real facts.
          But when almost the entire article is based on this very common sense, without almost any reference to objective sources, this is not history and not science.
      3. kalibr
        kalibr 19 August 2020 12: 15 New
        +3
        Quote: Liam
        It’s better not to be scientific. Science operates in other categories.

        Oh really? I didn’t know, although I worked at the Higher School for 32 years
        1. Liam
          Liam 19 August 2020 12: 25 New
          -1
          Quote: kalibr
          Did not know

          By the way, my colleague Undechim has thoroughly walked through your second postulate below.
          popularity of presentation

          The articles of this author are practically unreadable. You have to fight your way through the jungle of pseudo-scientific phrases, constant repetitions and parasitic words.
          difficult, but he succeeds!
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 19 August 2020 13: 02 New
      +2
      Eduard's articles skillfully combine scientific and popular presentation. It is difficult, but he succeeds!
      That's what corporate solidarity means !!!
      Indeed, there are authors who manage to present the topic in such a way that reading is hard work.
      By the way, scientific character just presupposes the correspondence of the interpretations of the issues presented to the real cognitive capabilities of the audience for which they are presented.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 19 August 2020 13: 43 New
        +3
        And everything seemed clear to me ... for some reason
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 19 August 2020 13: 46 New
          +2
          And where does it say that "everything is not clear"? I meant the presentation of the issue, the creative handwriting, if you like.
    3. Edward Vashchenko
      19 August 2020 13: 14 New
      +4
      Vyacheslav Olegovich,
      hi
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 19 August 2020 13: 44 New
        +3
        I don’t know how anyone, but I liked the material. Is it difficult to perceive? Well, the topic is ... complex. And to write about complex things very simply means falling into oversimplification.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 19 August 2020 14: 03 New
          +3
          And to write about complex things very simply means falling into simplification.
          Karl Sagan, Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, Bill Bryson, Sergei Petrovich Kapitsa and many others will disagree with you.
          The ability to present a topic in such a way that a reader who is not an expert in the field understands and becomes interested is talent, not oversimplification.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 19 August 2020 16: 17 New
            +1
            Quote: Undecim
            this is a talent

            So talent is rare. And materials on VO should be published every day. And talented articles are rare. And paying for them ... As a result, updating the site once a month is already happiness. Well, Yandex.Zen is flourishing!
            1. Liam
              Liam 19 August 2020 16: 23 New
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              And payment for them ..

              Do not consider it indelicate ... but the number of words in the article somehow affects the payment .. or is it a trade secret?
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 19 August 2020 16: 35 New
                +3
                Doesn't affect in any way. And the propagandist Kharaluzhny for his couple of paragraphs of fiery seething about nothing, and the historian Shpakovsky for his article, receive the same fees.
                And Vaschenko, judging by his status, generally writes, as they used to say, on a voluntary basis, that is, for free.
                1. Liam
                  Liam 19 August 2020 16: 54 New
                  0
                  Quote: Undecim
                  receive the same fees.

                  This is just good. For Shpakovsky. From the point of view of editorial policy, commercial interests and the composition of the contingent of the site, Kharaluzhny is much more useful than Shpakovsky
                  1. Undecim
                    Undecim 19 August 2020 17: 01 New
                    +2
                    It is, yes. For the bulk of the current contingent, a primitive attack on a fan of feces is much more interesting and understandable than a detailed article on the reforms of Xanthippus.
                    1. Liam
                      Liam 19 August 2020 17: 10 New
                      0
                      The apologists of Vaschenko, Shpakovsky, etc., just grieve, do not understand the importance in this regard of raids on their creations with subsequent holivar. And the corresponding growth of the shaft of comments. Remove the holivar from the current discussion and God forbid there will be 10 laudatory comments with plus signs and 5 on the topic of the article.
                      1. Engineer
                        Engineer 19 August 2020 18: 31 New
                        +3
                        And what is the importance if the salary is the same or no salary at all?
                        And what is the importance of hitting from the conditional Bar # X? Will it really speed up the number of views.?
                        Or there was a group of holy fools who believed that Vaschenko was Shpakovsky's bot. Maybe it's such a holivar away from him?
                        Let Kharaluzhny have more views and he is more valuable for the resource. But Shpakovsky and Vaschenko, with all their shortcomings, are professionals, and Kharaluzhny .... well, such a thing.
                        Let trolls and clowns continue to clump together on political topics. The denser the better.
                        We will do without holivars here.
                      2. Liam
                        Liam 19 August 2020 18: 48 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        And what is the importance

                        Ask Shpakovsky
                        Quote: Engineer
                        We can do without holivars here

                        This is unlikely. The article is frankly boring and poorly written. It does not inspire special discussions. And without discussion, it makes no sense to publish on such sites. If I am interested in a topic in an academic sense, then I myself can find articles or studies on the Internet that are much more professional, reasoned and better written than this one. They are published for the sake of discussion and not because of scientific value. No discussions - the author will stop publishing here pretty quickly
                      3. Engineer
                        Engineer 19 August 2020 19: 00 New
                        +2
                        If an article is written boringly, then criticism is unlikely to help here. It cannot be cured. Forgive to accept. As a last resort, ignore.
                        Vaschenko's article will get at least 20 thousand views anyway. Some kind of cover is provided. For a professional historian, this is probably important.
                        Regarding the discussion on the subject of the article, there are about two of them and each less than ten posts. That's 120 comments. This is an indicator of the quality of our community.
                        You see, with such claims, we will not reach the author and will not be able to stimulate him to work on the style and form of presentation. But each of us flaunts in a white snob toga with a purple border.
                      4. Liam
                        Liam 19 August 2020 19: 27 New
                        -1
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Forgive to accept. As a last resort, ignore.

                        Add another Criticize option, which has no less rights to exist than those listed above.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        quality indicator of our community

                        On your part, this is a dishonest one-sided game. Do not always blame the community on everything. It is often a problem of the quality of the article.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        work on the style and form of presentation

                        This is usually achieved by criticism, indicating specific jambs, and not by praising and criticizing criticism). This will definitely not stimulate anything.
                        Quote: Engineer
                        in a white snob toga with a purple border nerdy

                        It's better than dirty rags of ignorance and servility
                  2. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 23: 39 New
                    +1
                    Let Kharaluzhny have more views and he is more valuable for the resource. But Shpakovsky and Vaschenko, with all their shortcomings, are professionals, and Kharaluzhny .... well, such a thing.

                    Denis, unfortunately, this is a tragedy ... hi a sincere tragedy that historians are being replaced by propagandists. It was said in the comments many times, but ... request
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 19 August 2020 21: 48 New
                  +2
                  Apologists understand, only "assaults" are different. Your assaults are normal and discussed. The categorical dullness of the Holy Slavic Aryans is not even funny anymore ... It is more likely to promote pertstalsis.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 19 August 2020 21: 38 New
            +2
            Kharaluzhny now also plows (writes) "for the idea."
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 19 August 2020 22: 18 New
              +3
              The ideological one, however, plows, the fur coat is already wrapped up. Does he really believe in perspective?
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 19 August 2020 22: 30 New
                +2
                It is not excluded. Apukhtin also started out as a random author ... Suddenly, it reminded me ...
                ".... recently became a priestess,
                The priestess, Postumus, and communicates with the gods! "(C)
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 19 August 2020 23: 42 New
              +1
              Kharaluzhny now also plows (writes) "for the idea."

              Uh-huh. Children's matinees, outline plan, writes. The "Patriots" are jumping, quarreling with each other and rejoicing as usual. And everything is gorgeous, like in Indian films ... negative
        2. kalibr
          kalibr 19 August 2020 18: 45 New
          +1
          No, it doesn't. It's just that if I, for example, go to Paris for material for each article, then you yourself understand how much they will cost any publisher.
          1. Fat
            Fat 23 August 2020 15: 38 New
            0
            I don’t envy you even once !!!! That's when you write with all your heart ... cap ..
        3. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 19 August 2020 21: 35 New
          +3
          Does not affect, from 8000 characters. On "varheda" limes is limited to five thousand. But on "varheda" any author is paid a "pretty penny", but here a random author can make himself a "name" !!! For free! For the owner of the resource! Moreover, the resource is also engaged in charity work, in its favor, "Give it to a house for homeless pigs!"
          Looking forward to monetizing comments!
          1. Fat
            Fat 23 August 2020 15: 41 New
            0
            Numbering, Well, now you're wrong ...
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 23 August 2020 16: 21 New
              +1
              In which place?
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov 19 August 2020 14: 42 New
    +5
    Quote: kalibr
    I don’t know how anyone, but I liked the material. Is it difficult to perceive? Well, the topic is ... complex. And to write about complex things very simply means falling into oversimplification.

    Supporting you Vyacheslav, I am personally pleased to read the material in the style of a "good old scientific monograph" and I think there are a lot of such readers here, the benefit of the opposite "content" is already in abundance here.
    PS "You, Dovlatov, don't have to be jammed, anyway, only MSU graduate students understand your reports ..." (Branch)
  • Fat
    Fat 19 August 2020 14: 55 New
    +2
    Here! I agree. Well, let's dig in. Maybe on my original by region.
    I agree, the material is simple and familiar. But you have to rummage around. All winter is ahead of us ...
  • Fat
    Fat 19 August 2020 15: 01 New
    +1
    Vyacheslav Olegovich !!! Well, it is impossible to simplify the simple. Cool article.
    Zavidushki?
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 19 August 2020 16: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Thick
      Zavidushki?

      And don't say. Old age is not a joy!
      1. Fat
        Fat 23 August 2020 15: 44 New
        0
        Well ... Frostiness visited me ...
  • Undecim
    Undecim 19 August 2020 11: 56 New
    +6
    While I was reading, a comparison of two authors - Ryzhov and Vaschenko - was involuntarily born.
    Ryzhov is extremely free with history, easily passes off legends as reliable facts and packs this into his interpretation of events. But thanks to the presence of a good literary style, his articles are easy to read and with interest.
    Vaschenko strictly follows in line with the prevailing historical views, facts and theories, but here's the presentation ... Reading the articles reminds me of a trek through the jungle. One has to cut through the logical constructions of the author in order to get to the facts, speaking figuratively.
    Sentence: “Until the period when, within the framework of one or another early social organization, there was no understanding about the possibility of obtaining a surplus product not by productive means, but by means of capture, military“ business ”was always a continuation of the productive capabilities of an ethnic group."in relation to the ancient Slavs of the described period, I never mastered. What does this mean? Judging by the fact that the Slavs had already successfully plundered the territory of Byzantium, they already had an understanding of the possibility of obtaining a surplus product in a non-productive way. It turns out that they have military affairs ( Slavs) has already gone beyond the limits of the production capabilities of the ethnos? Or is it not yet, and what was obtained during the campaigns against Byzantium was not considered a surplus product? And does the author take into account the factor that the material culture of the Slavs in the described period was no longer the same?
    1. Liam
      Liam 19 August 2020 12: 13 New
      0
      Quote: Undecim
      "Until the period when, within the framework of one or another early social organization, there was no understanding about the possibility of obtaining a surplus product not by productive means, but by means of capture, military" affairs "have always been a continuation of the production capabilities of an ethnic group."

      This is called science-like. Replacing the simple word Rob your neighbors with such a multi-butoral construction of complex words and you get an impressive job with a claim to historicity, and not an exercise in altistory by an amateur blogger in essence.
      And people knew how and loved to receive a surplus product by means of seizure since the time when they were not very much from primates. They did not really need to reflect on this dilemma
      1. Slavutich
        Slavutich 19 August 2020 13: 25 New
        +5
        An amazing degradation of readers, and most importantly, do not hesitate to declare it.
        And this is in the once most reading country!
        If my level is a manual for a smartphone, then everyone should write like this.
        There is no desire to strain the muscles of the brain.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 19 August 2020 13: 45 New
          +2
          Quote: Slavutich
          An amazing degradation of readers, and most importantly, do not hesitate to declare it.
          And this is in the once most reading country!
          If my level is a manual for a smartphone, then everyone should write like this.
          There is no desire to strain the muscles of the brain.

          +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          1. Fat
            Fat 19 August 2020 15: 13 New
            +1
            Well. Difficult words on ... On ... There is no desire to strain the muscles of the brain.
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 19 August 2020 16: 10 New
              +1
              Quote: Thick
              There is no desire to strain the muscles of the brain.

              Nope, "Styrofoam is tired"
              1. Fat
                Fat 23 August 2020 16: 14 New
                0
                Among other things, repeat our glorious service Olegovich
            2. Fat
              Fat 23 August 2020 15: 55 New
              0
              OK. Ok, in a dream, you first need to read everything.
          2. Liam
            Liam 19 August 2020 15: 58 New
            -1
            «the vagueness of a word is an invariable sign of the vagueness of thought. "
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 19 August 2020 16: 12 New
              +2
              How well you said, just wonderful. Now you would also like to write a couple of articles on VO as an example. Demonstrate, so to speak, a pattern of thinking and presentation, and everything will be just fine!
              1. Liam
                Liam 19 August 2020 16: 15 New
                -2
                To each his own)

                Korney Chukovsky brilliantly spoke about this language in his essay “The Office”: “... Imagine that your wife will speak to you in the same style, talking at dinner about household chores. “I have accelerated,” she says, “to ensure the restoration of proper order in the living area, as well as in the utility room for cooking (that is, in the kitchen). In the subsequent period of time, I organized a visit to the outlet in order to purchase the necessary food products ".
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr 19 August 2020 18: 51 New
                  +3
                  This is all true, but it is always easier to criticize than to do it yourself. Although I am personally convinced and have examples of that, an educated and intelligent person with a certain life experience and knowledge can always write 1-2 interesting articles on one of the topics close to him by interests. Even 3. It is difficult to write for 5 years, one (or even 2) every day ... Or almost every one.
                  1. Liam
                    Liam 19 August 2020 19: 15 New
                    0
                    Quote: kalibr
                    it's always easier to criticize

                    Come on, it is much more difficult to criticize reasonably than to write an article of the level of those that are published here (with rare exceptions).
                    The same Undechim is an order of magnitude more interesting as a critic and destroyer of written articles in discussions than as an author.
                    Well, he will write an article. He will not make epochal discoveries, but he will not allow obvious mistakes or controversial moments. Those couple of dozen people read the article that usually read the articles themselves in the section, and not just the discussions (they are Holivar), they will praise, they say that it is very interesting , the day in the morning shone with new intellectual colors thanks to reading the article and other manifestations of stormy joy, which are usually written here in such cases, will applaud and disperse. After that a couple of dozen flame comments with quotes from songs and poems will follow and the branch will die within a few hours.
                    You yourself know the procedure better than anyone else.
                    And the critics will arrange for what the articles are written here. Bar with his comments will give a reason for the more competent to trample on his ignorance and get moral satisfaction from a sense of intellectual superiority, Undechim will find shoals and throw off a dozen other interesting additions / clarifications, simultaneously threatening the miners and causing new controversies ...
                    So, to each his own)
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 19 August 2020 21: 58 New
                      +4
                      Bravo, colleague !!!
                      Everything, in fact, is so! It would be fun to read more detailed material on this topic, for your authorship.
                      1. Liam
                        Liam 19 August 2020 22: 19 New
                        +1
                        The comment format suits me perfectly)
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 19 August 2020 22: 34 New
                        +3
                        It is a pity, of course, that I cannot persuade any of the Russian-speaking inhabitants of the Apennines to be creative. crying
                      3. Liam
                        Liam 19 August 2020 22: 42 New
                        0
                        Holivarit is also creativity. There are poems and there are gariki)
                2. kalibr
                  kalibr 20 August 2020 07: 18 New
                  0
                  If we consider the process as a whole, then - yes.
                  1. Fat
                    Fat 23 August 2020 17: 06 New
                    0
                    Come on, take it and build a ship, otherwise you only need sewing machines, ... There is enough spirit ...
                  2. kalibr
                    kalibr 23 August 2020 18: 20 New
                    0
                    Quote: Thick
                    on sewing machines, ...

                    And what about rifles and machine guns? + dacha, then this is not the place.
            2. Fat
              Fat 23 August 2020 17: 02 New
              0
              Even words are not needed. You can definitely ... The job is
        2. Fat
          Fat 23 August 2020 16: 17 New
          0
          Vyacheslav Olegovich and this is you for me? Seriously?
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 23 August 2020 18: 21 New
            0
            No, not for you!
  • Liam
    Liam 19 August 2020 15: 59 New
    0
    Quote: Slavutich
    If my level is the manual for the smartphone

    It is useless to expect you to know, for example, the term Semantic pleonasm
  • Fat
    Fat 19 August 2020 15: 10 New
    0
    Uh-huh! There is no point of view, no author, with his soul, attachments to every word. No soul ... No Word. Do you understand? The topic is given. Let's figure it out .. Well, I'm responsible for myself ...
  • arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 19 August 2020 13: 34 New
    +8
    I expected to see another mantra about Slav-Russoaries under this name, pleasantly surprised that I was mistaken hi Taki definitely fiercely plus for good, useful material on the topic.
  • Fat
    Fat 19 August 2020 14: 45 New
    +2
    Thanks uh ... Awesome info. Thank! I just want to ask. Aren't you lying? But no ... Cool.
    Well ... I was puzzled for a month ...
  • fuxila
    fuxila 19 August 2020 18: 51 New
    +4
    Hello Edward! About the Slavic cavalry of the VI-VII centuries. I completely agree with you, but about the Germans:
    However, here the Slavs are no exception, and the Goths (tribe) and the Franks, and the Gepids, Eruls, Lombards, and finally, the Saxons - Germanic ethnic groups, standing at different stages of development of pre-state structures - all, for the most part, were foot soldiers

    There is a big correction to be made here. The same Cardini, to whom you are referring, clearly divided them into conditionally "forest" (Saxons, Franks) and "steppe" (Goths, Vandals, Gepids, etc.). For a long time, the first used horses only as transport and fought on foot, the second, living next to the Sarmatians, learned not only their ability to fight on horseback, but also underwent a strong cultural influence. As for the Vandals, Heruls (Eruls) and Quads, Roman authors even categorically claim that these are horsemen.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 19 August 2020 19: 07 New
      +3
      Here you can recall that the Germans on the Rhine, and without the Sarmatians, often excellently rode horses. In marketable quantities.
      From memory (sort of like) Caesar's 1000 horsemen and 1000 infantrymen of the Germans put 6000 Gaulish cavalry to flight
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      19 August 2020 19: 25 New
      +3
      Alexey, good afternoon,
      here, as usual, a controversial point, as they write in the comments above, the formulations: "as it seems, by assumption, it seems to us, etc." - unscientific. laughing
      Cardini, yes, I agree, he defined it this way, within the framework of his concept. That's what the concept is for.
      And in fact, the Heruls (Eruls) - from Ammin Markellin to Agafiy Mireniysky - are infantry. Nerses placed them in the battle with the Franks in the center, along with payments.
      The Vandals, the big question is when they "sat down", either under the influence of the Alans in Spain, or already in Africa, but they fought with Belisarius more often on foot.
      And the Goths fought on horseback, and the Langobrds picked up from the Avars.
      But the Germans are all farmers, they could use horses, and even have cavalry, but that's another story.
      This is by the way.

      Yours faithfully, hi
      1. fuxila
        fuxila 20 August 2020 08: 28 New
        +3
        Alexey, good afternoon,
        here, as usual, a controversial point,

        I don't see anything controversial here, everything has been researched for a long time. Already in the III century. the East Germans were good cavalry. Emperor Aurelian (270-275) defeated the Yutung barbarians and Vandals. The ambassadors of the Yutungs frightened Aurelian: "We put 40 thousand cavalry in the field - these are ... pure Yutungs, whose glory in equestrian combat is known to everyone." At the same time, the defeated vandals allocated 2 thousand of their horsemen to Aurelian. 260 years after these events, Procopius of Caesarea wrote about the vandals: "They did not know how to go into battle on foot, but were only horsemen." After their defeat, the Romans formed 5 cavalry regiments from the vandals and sent them to Asia Minor. Nowhere did I find any mention of them fighting Belisarius on foot.
        There is also a lot of information about the Herul horsemen, Sidonius Apollinarius wrote to Avit: "In horse riding gerul, in throwing a Hun's dart and in swimming francs ... "Horse Heruls are constantly mentioned by Procopius. The same can be said about other tribes. For example, Ammianus Marcellinus reports that the Quads became so" sarmatized "that they became indistinguishable from them:" Tribes are neighbors, close to each other in customs and weapons ... They are armed with long pikes and wear shells ... They pass huge spaces ... sitting on fast and obedient horses. "
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          20 August 2020 10: 11 New
          +2
          "I don't see anything controversial here, everything has been researched for a long time."

          The presence of mounted units does not make them cavalry by definition.
          Again about the geruls. Amianus Marcellinus: 360 "light detachments, ie Eruls and Batans," set off on their way, Procopius, who dedicated several pages to their description, does not write anything about the cavalry. Moreover, in "The War with the Persians" he describes a Roman equestrian soldier - warmed, on horseback, rather, as a kind of exception. But here he is already a stratiote. Herul Fara in the battle of Dar in 530 had 300 geruls, most likely mounted, but this is such a theater of operations, and it does not follow from this that they did not become horsemen already in the Roman service.
          Agathius of Mirinei writes a lot about the Heruli of Narses. First, in Emilia the neruls go on foot, were ambushed, and flee on foot, and those who, together with the leader Fulkaris, did not flinch, fight on foot.
          Finally, at the Battle of Capua, the Heruls fight and decide the battle on foot.
          Therefore, I propose not to become like those who write that “suppose”, “in the opinion of researchers” is a sign of antiscientific nature. Categoricalness is not a sign of knowledge, but more often of self-importance.
          The sources do not give us the opportunity to rigidly interpret, and the related disciplines to consider the cavalry as a defining element among the sedentary peoples from the forest and forest-steppe zones of the tribal system.
          1. fuxila
            fuxila 20 August 2020 17: 25 New
            +2
            As for the Heruls, there are indeed references to their actions both on horseback and on foot. In addition to the cases described by you, there are also such messages from Procopius, for example, when the Lombards and Gepids decided to start a war, then by order of Justinian, 10 people were sent to help the Lombards. equestrian army with a detachment of Heruli in 1,5 thousand soldiers. Then, when Narses was recruiting an army for the war in Italy, the "king of the Lombards, Audwin, prompted to do this by the emperor Justinian with large monetary gifts, and in pursuance of the treaty of alliance, sent him the best warriors as an allied detachment, selecting from his entourage 2,5 thousand people, followed by more than 3 thousand warlike fighters as servants. Followed by Narses and from the Erul tribe more than 3 thousand, all riders; their chief, along with others, was Filemut. "
            It is possible that the Heruls were indeed "riding" infantry, but as for the Vandals, there is no doubt that they were full-fledged cavalry.
            The Ostrogoths also had cavalry, and Procopius notes that the horses of many horsemen were covered with armor. A riding infantryman clearly does not need this.
      2. Fat
        Fat 23 August 2020 16: 29 New
        0
        Edward. I love your style to the point of impossibility. Want to? ; I'll draw a couple more sweet words ... Well, how it turned out always bastard
  • Operator
    Operator 19 August 2020 19: 38 New
    -3
    The author of the article is clearly not Russian and not even a Slav - from time to time he persistently posts fake maps of the settlement of the Slavs in Europe, with their alleged migrations from east to west.

    In reality, the western border of the settlement of the ancestors of the Slavs from the second millennium BC. passed along the line of Labe, Sudetenland and Danube, as evidenced by archaeological excavations of German scientists. Various migrations of the ancestors of the Slavs, and then the Slavs, took place within the boundaries of the region of their settlement, which was the reason for the lack of information about them among the Greeks and Romans. Only with the beginning of the Great Migration of Peoples, the Slavic tribes began to migrate south beyond their region (which was reflected in the written documents of neighboring countries), populating entire provinces of the Byzantine Empire: first the Antes to Thrace, then the Sorbs and White Croats to the Balkans. At the same time, the Slavs were forced to leave their territories between Laba and Odra under the pressure of the Germanic tribes.

    As for the use of cavalry among the Slavs in the first millennium AD. - the region of the indigenous settlement of the Slavs was a forest-swampy area, connected exclusively by river transport. The main source of life for the Slavs was not agriculture, but hunting and fishing (due to the low population density and the abundance of game and fish). Therefore, horses on the farm were used in limited quantities, mainly as a draft force on the crossings between rivers (where skeletons of horses are found in cattle cemeteries).

    This, of course, does not negate the use of trophy horses by the Slavs during raids and migrations outside the forest-swampy area.
    1. Fat
      Fat 23 August 2020 16: 32 New
      0
      Operator what happened is that you do not consider your own damage ..
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Fat
      Fat 23 August 2020 16: 48 New
      0
      I've been wondering all the time
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 19 August 2020 19: 54 New
    +4
    My compliments, Edward! For the everyday fuss and work, and the morning "hip" under the material, I somehow belatedly sent gratitude for the work ... repeat
    Thank you!
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 19 August 2020 21: 17 New
    +3
    And again in the evening I cannot but note that the quality of the source material significantly affects the quality of the discussion. Informative, interesting, correct. I myself cannot take an active part for objective reasons, but today it seems even better here without me. smile
    My sincere thanks to everyone. good
    1. Fat
      Fat 23 August 2020 16: 38 New
      0
      So when do you expect the Torilobite version to hide, as always ?! Like all normal people
  • swyatoslav
    swyatoslav 22 August 2020 16: 28 New
    -1
    The author seems to be suffering from Slavophobia, a disdainful attitude towards the Slavs is clearly visible through the text.
    German historians of the 20th and 21st centuries also wrote (and are still writing) hard-hitting books about their WINNERS. And the main thing they write is the same: "they were crushed by numbers, they had no tactics, they ran in a crowd across the battlefield." Do you need to have at least a little criticality or recklessly trust everything that foreigners write about "Russian barbarians (Slavs)"?
    Maybe the author will undertake to write a devastating article on the methods and means of the Red Army based on their recollections? How the Nazis were defeated by a "crowd". Or is it scary, while the memories of this war are still fresh?
    It is clear that the early (and not especially) Slavs can be criticized fearlessly - who will stand up for them ...
    1. Fat
      Fat 23 August 2020 16: 43 New
      0
      Svyatoslav. I know a lot of good people. But you are definitely in the wrong group;
      1. swyatoslav
        swyatoslav 2 September 2020 20: 57 New
        0
        Maybe this is good .... sometimes, to be on the list of "good people" for some - you will not wish the enemy.
        1. Fat
          Fat 9 October 2020 19: 43 New
          0
          So don't. And you are a person who clearly knows how to use not only the spinal cord. So use not only the peripheral NS.
          1. swyatoslav
            swyatoslav 10 October 2020 13: 57 New
            0
            And the same did not stop you.