The first state of the Slavs

79

Entry


Article “Slavs on the threshold of statehood” we have identified important points the beginning of the formation of the Slavic state mechanism and the foreign policy situation.


Himself and his warriors. Fig. the author




With the beginning of the 7th century, a new migration movement of the Slavs began, which occupied the entire Balkan Peninsula (see map), the territory of the Eastern Alps, and began to develop the territories of modern East Germany and the coastal territory of the Baltic Sea.


Slavic tribes of the Balkan Peninsula and Peloponnese. Source: Sedov V.V. Slavs. Old Russian nationality. M., 2005. C. 412


In the same period, the most famous and significant early state association of the Slavs was formed - the kingdom of Samo.

The first one. It should be understood that, from a scientific point of view, the formation of a state is a long process, in the twentieth century, historians have identified a number of the most important stages of pre-state and early state formations, parallels with formations. True, work in this direction continues. It is primarily about European nations.

Considering the state only as an institution of violence is a thing of the past, first of all, it is the mechanisms necessary for governance and security, which are necessary for society itself. It was they who contributed to the formation of early state formations (a term that we will repeat more than once, speaking about the beginning of statehood among the Slavs).

The second one. In a series of articles posted on "VO", we gradually examined the development of the Slavs described in modern scientific historiography.

Let us repeat again: the conditional lag of the Slavs from their Indo-European counterparts, for example, the East Germans, was associated with the later formation of the Slavs as an ethnos, powerful enemies also slowed down this development (Goths, Huns, Avars), but after passing through a number of historical twists and turns, the Slavs approached the formation of early states.

Once again about the premises


The defeat that the "nomadic empire" Avar suffered under Constantinople became a catalyst for the beginning of the collapse of this steppe state. What is reflected in archeology: burial grounds of this period are sharply poorer than the previous one, and this happens until the 70 of the VII century. (Dime F., Somogy P.).

The performances of the Slavs and the Bulgars against the hegemony of the Avars in Podunavye began in the 20 years of the 7th century, even before the Kagan’s campaign against Constantinople. And the Avars themselves were far from ethnic unity, since the formation of this community took place in the process of the movement of Avars or “pseudo-Avars” from Central Asia to the steppes of Eastern Europe, and a large number of other tribes joined them, not without reason archaeologists indicate that the funeral rite of the Avars in Hungary differs in detail from settlement to settlement. Indirectly, the events of 602 testify to this, when part of the Avars passed to the Byzantine emperor.

Often in the scientific literature there is an opinion about the symbiosis of the Avars that began with the Slavs, that Byzantine authors often confused one and the other, referring to the Slavs who are subordinate to the Avars. It would seem that Fredegar’s story that the revolt against the Avars was raised by the children of Slavs born from the Avars reinforces these arguments. This story is more like a “flying plot” than a reflection of real events: it was the “yoke” itself, which was extremely difficult, that was the cause of the Slavic movement against the Avars.

Actually, this consumer attitude to human resources came from the Avar system itself, and was quite typical for this period. We have the opportunity to reconstruct this system based on data on the power of the Turks.

The Türks, who received the first state “experience” within the state of the Juan Juan or Avar, being their “slaves”, had the following state structure.

The duty of the kagan is to take care of its people day and night, to expand its borders and wealth. The world seems to be divided into its own “state" and enemies, which can either become "slaves" of various degrees and levels, or perish. Thus, both the Antes and Byzantium paid the Avars "tribute."

On the territory of Pannonia were dependent on the Avars, but privileged in the VII century. territories in the area of ​​Lake Balaton, known as the Keszthely (Kestelian) culture with a handicraft Romanian population (A.K. Ambrose).

But this did not change the main paradigm: all subordinate tribes of the Bulgars, Gepids and Slavs, the local Romanized population and the resettled inhabitants of Byzantium were considered as “slaves” of the Avars.

Moreover, the vast majority of “subjects” (υπήκóους) were precisely the Slavs, as indicated by archaeological data (V. Sedov).

One should not confuse complete slavery and the institution of submission, which has a similar name. When at the end of the 6th century the Turkic Yshbara Kagan was offered to become a vassal of the Sui emperor Kin-tse, they clarified this concept, which he could not take: “a vassal in the kingdom of Sui means the same as the word slave” (Bichurin N.Ya. )

Violence as an element of control was key in the structure of the Avar Kagan, which stemmed from the idea of ​​the structure of the “state” and the world, and it is natural that, with the slightest weakening of their primitive military-clan structure, subordinate peoples immediately rebelled or fell away. What happened in the 20-X-30-s of the VII century.

Alpine Slavs


The migration of the Slavs of the Slovenian group to the Eastern Alps began in the 50 of the VI century, firstly, due to the relocation of the Lombards from Panonia to Italy, and secondly, under the influence and pressure of the Avars. Here, at the crossroads of strategic roads, the Principality of Karantan is forming, now the territory of Slovenia, some territories of the alpine part of Austria and Italy. Here, the Slovenian Union was forced to interact in different ways with militarily powerful neighbors: Avars, Lombards and Franks. Already in 599, for the Slavs living in the upper Drava River, in the Eastern Alps, Avars entered the battle against the early state formation of the Bavars. And in 605, an army from the Slavs was sent across these limits by the kagan to Italy to the Lombards. They were obviously not from these areas, since these lands for some time fell into dependence on the Friulian Duke, that is, the Lombards.

In 611 or 612, Alpine Slavs were already able to independently attack the Bavar from Tyrol. The Bavars were a powerful tribal unit that successfully fought the Franks dominating in Western Europe.


Armament and belt set. Bavaria. VII century GE. Author photo


A number of campaigns, which we know about, testify to the growth of the military power of the Alpine Slavs, who make campaigns against strong neighbors.

The unification process was ongoing in this part of the Slavic world, but the transition to statehood, as elsewhere, was restrained by archaic tribal relations: the transition to a territorial community has not yet occurred.

In the 30 of the VII century. this early state formation was included or joined the first Slavic state of Samo, and after the collapse of this union tries to act independently among the more powerful political and military state associations.

Western Slavs


When we talk about the western direction of migration, we are primarily talking about the colonization stream of Slavs or Sklavins, which formed a community of Alpine and Western Slavs, with the subsequent arrival of Antian tribal groups here.

The first state of the Slavs

Map of the promotion of the Slavs in East Germany. By Die Slawen in Deutschland. Herausgegeben von J. Herrmann, Berlin.1985. P. 28.


In the VI century, the Slavs (Prague-Korchak archaeological culture) advanced into the middle reaches of the Elbe (Laba), and in the VII century. to the right tributary of the Elbe is Havel (in Serbian - Gavola) and the tributary of the latter is the Spree (Berlin stands on these rivers). The Slavic tribes of Tornovo culture or Luzhansky and Rusensky culture - sorbians (Serbs) occupy, respectively, Luzhitsa, and sorbians the territory between Zaale (both banks) and Elba. So, in this region two Slavic ethnic groups formed. Sorbians or Serbs, obviously, part of the Antian tribes, enter into military clashes with the Slovenes settled here, for example, the Tornov fortification (ancient settlement in the Spree river basin) was built on the site of a burnt out settlement.


Fortify Thorns. Reconstruction: K. Kalo. VIII-IX centuries. Die Slawen in Deutschland. Herausgegeben von J. Herrmann, Berlin.1985. P. 175


Militant sorbes became “vassals” of the kingdom of the Franks and took part in its struggle with the disobedient Germanic tribes, probably this dependence was nominal. And during the formation of a super union of fellow tribesmen, the prince (dux) Dervan “indulged with his people the kingdom of Samo.” Thus, the newly formed Slavic proto-states could immediately face off against German tribal unions. A little later, the Saxons, who demanded gifts from the Franks for the struggle against the Slavs, did not participate in it or did not decide to participate in it.

This prince is just one of the leaders of the resettlement movement. A possible etymology of his name is interesting: Dervan, - * dervín, 'old, senior.

The formation of the first Slavic state


In the 20-ies in the west of the Avar Khaganate began the movement of the Slavs, resulting in an uprising against the Hagan almost simultaneously with the events during the siege of Constantinople, when the Slavic army left the battlefield first, causing the Hagan to leave.

This movement, which arose on the western outskirts of the Avars, at first did not bother them, since they were undertaking a powerful military enterprise against Constantinople at that time, but the defeat at the Byzantine capital and military pressure from the Slavs changed the situation.

So, the Slavs went on a campaign against the Avar lords, at the same time, according to Fredegar, the only source on these events, merchants from the Franks, that is, from the territory of the former Western Roman Empire, which during the previous century was conquered by the Franks, arrive to them. with the participation of Turinogs, Burgundians, etc. Merchants sold to the Slavs weapons and horse equipment, and given the start of the war, these things were probably in great demand:
“In various countries, several hundred Merovingian swords of the Frankish and Alaman production of the 5th-7th centuries were found. They were made using a rather sophisticated method. ”

(Cardini F.)

These merchants were led by a certain Samo. It is believed that he was not actually a Frank (who were not engaged in trade), but a citizen of the "barbarian kingdom" of the Merovingians, a gall (Celt) or a gallorimlian, there is even a mention in the anonymous Salzburg treatise of the 9th century. "Conversion of the Bavars and Quarantines," that he, in fact, was a Slav. This gives rise to researchers to put forward, of course, the disputed version that Samo is not a proper name, but a title similar to the term "autocratic".

And this Samo joined the Slavic campaign, the merchantry in the early Middle Ages was a risky craft, about how the Slavs robbed the Frankish merchants, later reports Fredegar, therefore there is nothing surprising in the fact that the merchants were also warriors. “However, those merchants of the early period,” wrote A.Ya. Gurevich, - who did not engage in robbery were not deprived of militancy. "

Himself, who joined the enterprise, promising many benefits, proved himself in the war and was chosen as a leader or "king".

The Slavs, subjects to the Avar, had their clan organization and army, but it seems that they did not have permanent military leaders, and leaders appeared during campaigns and raids. Himself, who went with them on a campaign against the Avars, acted very actively in the battle. As a result, the Slavs, completely in the tradition of tribal democracy and considering its “utility” (utilitas), elected Himself as prince or king (rex), who were led by them for 35 years (Lovmyansky H.).

Until now, there is no exact data on where the territory of these Slavs was located, it is clear that they went to the borders of the Franks, Thuringians, Alpine Slavs and Sorbians (Serbs). But it is difficult to agree with the fact that they were exclusively Western or part of the southern Slavs, who were not so much subordinate to the Avars as those who lived with them. As Pavel Deacon wrote, when the Bavars attacked the Alpine Slavs living in the upper reaches of the Drava River, the Avars came to their aid, covering a great distance, so that the distances were not an insurmountable obstacle.

Proceeding, firstly, from an understanding of the structure of the nomadic “proto-state,” and, secondly, information that deposition from the kaganate was caused by direct “tormenting,” that is, the presence of Avars in the territory of Slavic settlements in the winter season, we can to go only about those Slavs who were not just “tributaries”, but a subjugated tribe of “slaves”.


The priming of wives with images. Radzivilov Chronicle. Miniature


The liberation of the Slavs was achieved as a result of their repeated battles under the leadership of Samo and ended by 630. Fredegar writes about the campaigns, it can be assumed that these campaigns were to be carried out precisely in the region of the Avar nomads.

It is important that the war on the part of the Slavs was waged by the entire tribal army, judging by the further developments after the death of Samo, the retinue organization was absent. But, given the different types of equipment and weapons of the Slavs and Avars, this struggle was not easy.

Thus, the first state or proto-state association of the Slavs was formed approximately on a large territory of Moravia, part of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, Austria, as well as on the lands of the Lusatian Serbs and Alpine Slavs. Of course, given the historical realities, it was most likely a union of tribal unions, and not a state, a “confederation", to which different tribes joined and fell away (Petrukhin V.Ya.).

So, we can say that after the first attempt to create the super-union of God by the Slavs-Antes in the face of an apparently unfavorable environment, the first Slavic “state” arose.

This state, or proto-state formation, had to immediately begin military operations against its neighbors, however, the war at this stage was an important component of its formation.

It so happened that the Slavs killed on their territory a group of merchants. The incident with the assassination of Frankish merchants triggered the fighting of a new entity with the state of the Franks. The arrogant ambassador of the Franks Sychary personally insulted Samo, in response to his moderate words said:
“It is not possible for Christians and servants of God to establish friendship with dogs.”


He himself objected:
“If you are slaves to God, and we are dogs to God, then while you are constantly acting against Him, we are allowed to torment you with bites.”


And Sychary was expelled. Nevertheless, it can be assumed that Samo did not seek collisions, even under the conditions that the Franks, after defeating the Avars as allies, were not needed by the Slavs, as some researchers claim.

Rather, those properties for which Itself was chosen, implied reasonableness in relations with neighbors, but the king of the Franks decided differently.

Dagobert I (603-639 gg.) Moved an army from all over his country against the Slavs, he also hired the Lombards, and Aleks dependent on Franks also took part in the campaign.

If the Lombards and Alemanni most likely raided the lands of the Slavs, the first, apparently, to the neighboring Alpine Slavs, and left home with great fullness, then the Franks invaded the territory of the state of Samo. Here he besieged the Venids (Slavs) in the Vogastisburg fortress. It is not known where this fortress was located: some researchers believe that in the place of modern Bratislava, others, objecting to them, note that Bratislava is located far from the alleged theater of war, there are three more hypotheses on its location: in North-West Bohemia and Franconia, but none of them is archaeologically confirmed, a powerful fortification was excavated on Mount Rubin near Podborzany in North-West Bohemia, which can be connected with Vogastisburk, finally, this castrum could be in the land of Sorbov, where we have many fortified rodisch this period, including Forberg or turn with shaft height 10-14 meters and moat 5-8 m.


Mountain and castle Divin. Bratislava


The Slavs, who were seated in the “castle”, showed active resistance, and “many of Dagobert’s troops were destroyed there with the sword”, which forced the king’s army to flee, leaving “all the tents and things”.

In response, the Slavs began to make successful raids on Thuringia, and the sorbs of Dervan participated in this as the closest neighbors of the Germans, who joined the Samo union. The border of the Frankish state was open until 633-634, when, after trying to attract the Saxons to fight the Slavs, Dagobert organized the defense of borders by central authorities, solving not only the issue of combating invasions, but also ensuring the subordination of Thuringians.

Border clashes become permanent, presumably during this period, the construction of hailstones with powerful fortifications began among the Western Slavs.

Active actions of the Slavs itself were also possible because, most likely, after the victories of tributary Slavs to the struggle against the Avars or for hegemony in Pannonia, other Avar “slaves” —the Bulgars or proto-Bulgarians, the descendants of the Utigurs and Kutrigurs, or only the Kutrigurs, tribes conquered aliens from Altai (Artamonov M.I., Vernadsky G.V.).

These events take place in the 631-633 years, the Avars defended their right to be the main ones in the Danube, the Bulgars fled: some to the Black Sea steppes to related tribes, others in the amount of ten thousand people, with wives and children, through the possessions of the Slavs, to the Bavars, where they were all killed one night. Only Alzioka was saved with seven hundred warriors, and their wives and children, they went to the Alpine Slavs and lived there with their prince Valukka (etymology: * vladyka or vel'k, 'great, old), later moving to Italy, as Pavel Deacon wrote about.

However, in 658 Mr. Samo died, the early state of the Slavs, led by him, collapsed. He had 12 Slavic wives, 22 son and 15 daughters.

Why was the life of this first Slavic association so fleeting?


A universal condition, as anthropologists note, in the event of an end to an external threat was the need to take over management functions from the military top. These leadership functions justify the existence of military power in the eyes of society, in peace. But if this does not happen, then in the event of a decrease in the external threat, and even then when the death of the authoritarian military leader occurs, the collapse of such an alliance is inevitable, which happened to the state itself (the "authoritarian" is not negative in content).

The tribes themselves were governed by the heads of the clans - the elders, the prince was necessary for combining military efforts, we don’t have any data on the availability of our own squads, of course, Samo also had some kind of military detachment, but this was not a German squad of this period, so the death of the prince entailed the end of the association.

In the second half of the VII century. there was a weakening of the Slovenian principality (Carantania), the collapse of the Serbian and Croatian alliance into separate archonies (E. Naumov).

It was this weakness of the early pre-state institutions among the Slavs in the middle of the 7th century. made it possible for the Avar state to recover and regain power over many Slavic associations, although, of course, not on as many harsh conditions as before. “The reason that the Avar power survived the crisis,” writes archaeologist F. Dime, “is rightly found in the weaknesses of neighbors.”

But the beginning of the Slavic states was laid.

To be continued ...

Sources and literature:

The so-called Chronicle of Fredegar. Translation V.K. Ronin // Codex of the oldest written news about the Slavs. T.I. M., 1995.
Chronicle of Fredegar. Translation, comments and entry. Article by G.A.Schmidt St. Petersburg, 2015.
Bichurin N.Ya. A collection of information about the peoples who lived in Central Asia in ancient times. Part one. Central Asia and South Siberia. M., 1950.
Artamonov M.I. History of the Khazars. SPb., 2001.
Vernadsky G.V. Ancient Russia. Tver - Moscow. 1996.
Gurevich A.Ya. Medieval Merchant // Odyssey. The man in history. M., 1990.
Dime F. History and archeology avar. // MAIET. Simferopol. 2002.
Cardini F. The origins of medieval chivalry. M., 1987.
Klyashtorny S.G. History of Central Asia and monuments of runic writing. SPb., 2003.
Lovmyansky H. Russia and the Normans. M., 1995.
Naumov E.P. Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian and Dalmatian zones in the 7th - 11th centuries / History of Europe. Medieval Europe. M., 1992.
Petrukhin V.Ya. Comments // Lovmyansky H. Russia and the Normans. M., 1995.
Sedov V.V. Slavs. Old Russian nationality. M., 2005.
Shinakov E.A., Erokhin A.S., Fedosov A.V. Ways to the state: Germans and Slavs. Pre-state stage. M., 2013.
Die Slawen in Deutschland. Herausgegeben von J. Herrmann, Berlin.1985.
Kunstmann H. Samo, Dervanus und der Slovenenfürst Wallucus // Die Welt der Slaven. 1980. V. 25.
Kunstmann H. Was besagt der Name Samo, und wo liegt Wogastisburg? // Die Welt der Slaven. 1979. V. 24.
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79 comments
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  1. +7
    October 29 2019
    Thanks to the author! An interesting scientifically grounded article, and not "fantasy", like some comrades ...
    1. +5
      October 29 2019
      Imagine after a while new data will appear, and it turns out that the author wrote a fantasy.
      You just like this theory of history.
      1. +1
        October 29 2019
        I was touched by the name "Smolyane" in Greece ..... To be honest, when I started reading, I thought that Samsonov had sprinkled it again .. Why not write about the Gnezdovsky burial mounds in the upper reaches of the Dnieper ... For me, everything is from there .. Well, or one of the parts is real, not alternative.
        1. +4
          October 29 2019
          Well, it’s interesting to read such articles, especially the links to the sources.
          thank you
        2. +4
          October 29 2019
          Quote: 210ox
          I was moved by the name "Smolyans" in Greece ....

          And how I was touched by the absence of the Greeks on the map of the Balkans. And where did they live, live? ..
          1. 0
            October 29 2019
            Maybe we have long been Greeks ..? what
            1. +6
              October 29 2019
              Quote: 210ox
              Maybe we have long been Greeks ..? what

              And it depends on how to read the Latin name of Hellas - Greco. It is possible as a Greek, but it is possible as a priest. If the language is not Greek but priestly, then all possible questions, such as where the Greeks lived, were until the 19th century, why the Greeks of modern Greece call their language Hellenic, themselves Hellenes, and the country Hellas and many others, disappear.
            2. +2
              October 29 2019
              Quote: 210ox
              Maybe we have long been Greeks ..? what

              And we already have "everything"? laughing
          2. +6
            October 29 2019
            Good afternoon,
            This map is not about everyone who lived, lived, but about the resettlement of Slavic tribes.
            1. +5
              October 29 2019
              Quote: Edward Vashchenko
              Good afternoon,
              This map is not about everyone who lived, lived, but about the resettlement of Slavic tribes.

              And good hour to you! hi

              Therefore, let’s write it down: the Hellenes are the most peaceful people - whole tribes roam back and forth across their lands, and they only know the loaves on the rushnyks.
            2. +8
              October 29 2019
              By the way, in the ethnogenesis of modern Greeks - the Slavs took part, who completely occupied the habitats of the Greeks in the Balkans in the 7th-9th centuries, about which there will be another article.
            3. +2
              October 29 2019
              Good afternoon, Edward.
              After the enchanting delirium and the ensuing frenzy that occurred here on Friday, your article is like a breath of fresh air. One return of the formidable ghost of the past venaya, who promised to put things in order here, I almost died of fear when I read it all on Sunday .. laughing wassat
              However, I have a question on the merits of the article.
              What specific signs allow us to define the state itself as a state, and on the basis of what data are these signs derived?
              1. +3
                October 29 2019
                Michael welcome !!!
                This, of course, is not about a real state, since there is no state without class formation, but about early test forms, pre-state, etc.
                Traditionally they write - this is the first Slavic state, the essence of its "chiefdom".
                However, around there were the same "barbaric" pre-class states or the period of the beginning of class formation (kingdom of the Franks).
                But as I noted, this mechanism, at this stage: the mechanism - there and back, after the disappearance of a strong leader, and the lack of need for such a mechanism, swung back:
                A universal condition, as anthropologists note, in the event of an end to an external threat was the need to take over management functions from the military top. These leadership functions justify the existence of military power in the eyes of society, in peace. But if this does not happen, then in the event of a decrease in the external threat, and even then when the death of the authoritarian military leader occurs, the collapse of such an alliance is inevitable, which happened to the state itself (the "authoritarian" is not negative in content).

                The latest work in this direction: Shinakov E.A., Erokhin A.S., Fedosov A.V. Ways to the state: Germans and Slavs. Pre-state stage. M., 2013.
                And so, A.I. Neusykhin, A.Ya. Gurevich, I.Ya. Froyanov, L.E. Kubbel and others.
                Hopefully answered?
                hi
                1. 0
                  October 30 2019
                  Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                  Hopefully answered?

                  Thanks. In general, I heard about what I expected, which is nice. So my ideas about this era and its main processes, in general, are adequate. smile
                  Thanks again for the article. hi
                  1. 0
                    October 30 2019
                    Mutually, always nice hi
              2. 0
                October 29 2019
                Michael! hi And I was going to send you an SMS: our happiness has come, Venya is back! laughing
                1. 0
                  October 30 2019
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Venya is back!

                  And you met him like that ... Maybe after all, and again to disappear for many years.
                  By the way, here some colleagues, who recently joined the discussions in this section, might have a little bewilderment - what kind of Venia we sometimes remembered here in vain ... So it was he, that one. Those who wish can appreciate the charisma of the character.
              3. 0
                October 30 2019
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                After the enchanting delirium and the ensuing frenzy that occurred here on Friday, your article is like a breath of fresh air.

                Truly the right words! Many thanks to Edward for such a great article!
            4. +2
              October 29 2019
              Eduard, thanks for the article, but it's still interesting to find out where the Smolensk came from in Greece. Enlighten please, if not difficult.
              1. +4
                October 29 2019
                Alex,
                Smolyans are one of the Slavic tribes, possibly from the Antian union, which reached Greece. As suggested by V.V. Sedov - Smolensk on the territory of the Krivichi, could also have been founded by the "resin" tribe, which may have been part of the union of the Krivichi tribes.
                Here, by the way, the question about Gnezdovo is raised, there are many theories about it. One of them - since archaeologically Smolensk in the X century. not visible, Gnezdovo was at first Smolensk, and then there was a "transfer" or synoykia, an institution known in history: the transfer of a city - a tribal center - and the formation of a supra-tribal center-city.
                And about the name of the Slavic tribes, we have the same names for you in different parts of Europe: Slovenes and Slovenia, Ilmen, glade (Poles) and Kiev, Serbs: in Illyria, Thrace and central Europe, Croats, Dregovics, etc. hi
                1. +1
                  October 29 2019
                  For reference, Gnezdovo (Goats Mountains) is located six kilometers in a straight line from the historical center. Now it is one of the microdistricts of the city.
        3. +3
          October 29 2019
          Quote: 210ox
          Why don’t you write about the Gnezdovsky mounds in the upper Dnieper.

          The first mounds there, it seems, were X century ... And they are Scandinavian. request
          1. 0
            October 29 2019
            In general, they date back to the 7-8 century. About the Scandinavian, perhaps. There, in my small homeland, there was a path "from the Varangians to the Greeks." and lakes.
        4. 0
          October 29 2019
          Touched by the name "Smolyan" in Greece ....

          So I, too, immediately drew attention to the Smolensk Aegean coast and rushed down the article, being sure that I would see Samsonov’s signature. Having seen the signature of the respected Eduard Vashchenko, I return to the beginning.
        5. +2
          October 29 2019
          And what really touched you? During the resettlement, the Slavic tribes were crushed into pieces, in the end, yesterday's relatives were at a distance of hundreds of miles from each other. So some encouraged reached the Baltic, while others went to the Balkans, like the Serbs, glades lived in Poland and the Dnieper, Croats - in Russia, the Czech Republic and the Balkans, etc. As for the Smolensk, that is, the version that the name Smolensk just happened on behalf of this tribe. By the way, the north lived near the Smolyan, and the northerners lived in Russia.
      2. +3
        October 29 2019
        Imagine after a while new data will appear, and it turns out that the author wrote a fantasy.
        You just like this theory of history.

        The author wrote an article based on available factual material.
        Like it or not, it doesn't matter. History, as a science, is also developing.
        1. +2
          October 29 2019
          Quote: Andrey Sukharev
          Imagine after a while new data will appear, and it turns out that the author wrote a fantasy.
          You just like this theory of history.

          The author wrote an article based on available factual material.
          Like it or not, it doesn't matter. History, as a science, is also developing.

          Here, not the actual material, but a free interpretation of it. The factual material claims that the Slavs came from the south-west coast of the Baltic, and the author came from anywhere. Given that in terms of archeology there is nothing new in this regard for about 50 years, it is ridiculous to read this.
    2. +6
      October 29 2019
      Regardless of the content of the article, it should be emphasized that it is beautifully designed, and that is how it is necessary to write articles on historical topics. That is, you write about the Anahuaks from Nibiru - you indicate where it came from.
    3. +4
      October 29 2019
      These merchants were led by a certain Samo. It is believed that he was not actually a Frank (who were not engaged in trade), but a subject of the "barbarian kingdom" of the Merovingians, a gall (Celt) or a gallorimlian, there is even a mention in the anonymous Salzburg treatise of the 9th century. "Conversion of the Bavars and Quarantines," that he, in fact, was a Slav.
      In the citizenship of the Franks were Slavs. So the theory of Slavism itself is not without meaning.
      1. +4
        October 29 2019
        Quite right, given that his name is also quite Slavic, names of this type are known from history: Sambir, Samovit, Samoslav, Samorad, etc.
    4. +3
      October 29 2019
      Wow, a good article is like a breath of fresh air, and it’s already become nauseous from the Fomenophiles.
  2. +1
    October 29 2019
    Now Natsik will run ...
  3. 0
    October 29 2019
    Again 7-9 centuries .. again, either the Slavs or the Slovens coming from nowhere ... can be seen from Mars or Jupiter ... but where were they before? But there wasn’t a black hole here! The so-called Slavs are just a part tribal union called the Gunas ... and really we do not need to write fantasy here about the Slavs from alpha centauri ..
    1. 0
      October 29 2019
      Quote: vomag
      here we don’t need to write fantasy about the Slavs from alpha centauri

      The famous showman Solovyov put forward an alternative point of view on the question of where the Slavs came from: the Jews came to the territory of modern Russia in the second century and through the "asimension" of the aborigines, by the sixth century they created a new tribe, calling it Slavs. Don't believe me? Watch a very short video. laughing

      1. +2
        October 29 2019
        The fact that such a historical blackness before the formation of the Slavic tribes, in fact, is the fault of the same Jews, they consider themselves an ancient people, but at the same time, not having anything of their own, the ancient "tsegans" went and lived where they were allowed
        1. +3
          October 29 2019
          Quote: Vlasik

          The fact that such historical blackness before the formation of Slavic tribes, in fact, the very same are to blame, the Jews

          How is this?
        2. +2
          October 29 2019
          "the same are to blame, the Jews, they consider themselves an ancient people" ////
          ----
          The Jews are to blame even in bad weather: this is an axiom and they do not argue with it. laughing
          But antiquity is one-person: in comparison with the Egyptians or Sumerians, the Jews are a group of kindergarten.
          And the supercivilization of antiquity, like the Egyptians or Sumerians, the Jews never were. I would not like to. crying
          1. +2
            October 30 2019
            Quote: voyaka uh
            But antiquity is one-person: in comparison with the Egyptians or Sumerians, the Jews are a group of kindergarten.

            Well, no, it’s rather just a class younger. With Sumerians, there is no exact clarity so far, and so what are you embarrassed about, are their northern neighbors from Upper and Center. Iraq are Akkadians, and so, Akkadian genetic remnants are quite traceable to several ethnic groups of the Vostok, including part of the population of modern Israel .
            1. +3
              October 30 2019
              Well, yes, forefather Abraham with his tribe came to Hannan from the Iraqi city of Ur.
              But this is a kinship with the Akkadyans, and not the continuity of civilization.
              When the ancient Jews moved to Egyptian lands, fleeing many years
              drought that swept Judea, and fell into "vassal" dependence on the Egyptian
              kingdoms, they were still a shepherd’s people, not civilization.
              On returning from Egypt, the Jews, having gained Egyptian experience, were able to
              create a developed state of kings - successively - Saul-David-Solomon.
    2. +2
      October 29 2019
      Yes, I agree with you ...
      - Again the same thing ...
      -When they undertake to describe the history of Mesopotamia, Assyria, Egypt .., state the laws of Hammurabi, etc. ... -so everything is clear, detailed and consistent ...- and artifacts a whole bunch ... -But this is a solid antiquity .. .
      -And about the Slavs ... -so everything is concise, schematic and not very concrete ... -And after all, the 7th-9th centuries A.D. -It's almost a modern story ... -Something even a shame ...
      -But, we must pay tribute ...- this author at least something outlined ... otherwise it’s usually about the Slavs a couple of lines and two or three short footnotes ...
      1. +11
        October 29 2019
        Irina,
        it’s not quite so
        just on the history of Mesopotamia we have also little information, as on the early history of the Slavs, and the history of Egypt is completely covered in darkness, but these "stories" do not care much for anyone, and the history of the Slavs, which naturally, arouses keen interest. And from their civilizations gigantic monuments retreated, but for example, on the history of Egypt - the main sources in ancient Greek, in other words, what was written by the Greeks, in general, far from Egypt.
        Everything stated here is actually all that we have about this period, of course, without archaeological material, but it does not change anything.
        hi
        1. 0
          November 12, 2019
          ... according to Academician Klesov, there is a haplogroup of Eastern Slavs R1A, ay Jews Y, so get the hell out of the nose whose ethnic group is older. Scythians have the same R1A ... Jews, they are Jews ...
      2. +3
        October 29 2019
        "the history of Mesopotamia, Assyria, Egypt .., to expound the laws of Hammurabi, etc. ... -so everything is clear there, in detail" ///
        ----
        There were several "supercivilizations" of antiquity.
        in the valleys of the rivers Nile, Euphrates, Ganges, Indus.
        With massive monumental construction. And a mass of stone artifacts. Including writing.
        These areas were not covered by the glacier in the last Ice Age and, for this reason, developed several thousand years earlier.
        The areas to the north later became habitable and later developed. It depended on nature, not on the abilities of groups of people.
  4. +4
    October 29 2019
    Quote: Gardamir
    Imagine after a while new data will appear, and it turns out that the author wrote a fantasy.

    Until they appeared ...
  5. +9
    October 29 2019
    Scientific articles - on the one hand, it is interesting, on the other hand, in order to start a discussion (agreement or refutation), the knowledge of a scientist-historian in this topic is needed. Therefore, I will thank the author for the interesting information. Well, I would advise "all-knowing" not to pollute the topic with "empty talk", and if there is interesting material, then expand or clarify the indicated topic with your comments. Personally, I'm interested in reading about historical facts, and not about political or personal get-togethers ...
  6. +6
    October 29 2019
    An interesting, substantive article: there is something to think about and something to read.
    and it's good that "super-ethnic groups" are not mentioned
    1. +6
      October 29 2019
      Olgovich (Andrey):and it's good that "super-ethnic groups" are not mentioned

      Andrei hi
      I agree. I took it straight from the tongue
      While writing, Olgovich was quietly slammed minus. Let’s then for me too for the company - I fully support his comments
  7. 0
    October 29 2019
    I do not understand, but where is the mention of the diggers of the Black Sea, a mess. The author, as usual, on a gilyak. laughing laughing laughing
  8. BAI
    -1
    October 29 2019
    In the same period, the most famous and significant early state association of the Slavs was formed - the kingdom of Samo.

    Some kind of cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, the author writes that this is the most significant state association of the Slavs, on the other hand, that’s where it all ends.
    Except for the phrase:
    In the 30 of the VII century. this early state formation was included or joined the first Slavic state of Samo, and after the collapse of this union tries to act independently among the more powerful political and military state associations.

    Probably should refer to:
    The beginning of Russian history. From ancient times to the reign of Oleg
    Tsvetkov Sergey Eduardovich
    ,
    submit a map of the state from there

    and give some explanation from there, for example this:
    Uncertainty prevails primarily in the question of the origin of the Self. In the chronicle of Fredegar - the main source for the history of the Samo Power - this man is named a native of the Sansky district of the Frankish kingdom. No less definite about the origin of Samo is the author of the anonymous Salzburg treatise "The Conversion of the Bavars and the Quarantine," which, however, calls him a Slav and a prince of quarantine Slavs (Horutan).

    and more
    1. BAI
      +2
      October 29 2019
      By the way, here the reconstruction of the warrior is very different, the presence of a helmet is an essential detail (and a shield of a different shape).


      SLAVS
      The Kingdom of Samo and its neighbors S.V. Alekseev.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. +5
        October 29 2019
        This is not a reconstruction, but a reproduction, the image is common, but it has nothing to do with the period of the 7th century: not on the shields: the amygdala only appeared - the second half is the end of the 10th century, not by swords - not earlier than the 12th century, the ammunition is the same, yes and helmet - the brink of the X-XI centuries. I repeat, if at all we can talk about illustration, as about reconstruction.
        Article - a professional look at the Slavic weapons of this period will be a little later. hi
    2. +5
      October 29 2019
      But why refer to E. Tsvetokov, he does not work in the field of professional history? he is a popularizer.
      All references to key professional works in the article, other works are secondary.
    3. -1
      October 29 2019
      Quote: BAI
      present a map of the state

      Tsvetkov Sergey Eduardovich is a certified Russian historian, author of a 4-volume (at the time) monograph "Russian History", as well as many biographical books about Russian historical figures. Author of a scientific analysis of the Russophobic basis of the script for the pseudo-historical film "Viking" (consultant of the film - Jewish historian V. Pervukhin).
      Therefore, for the author of the article - a popularizer of history, Avar Tsvetkov is not automatically a historian laughing

      Uncertainty prevails primarily in the question of the origin of the Self. In the chronicle of Fredegar - the main source for the history of the Samo Power - this man is named a native of the Sansky district of the Frankish kingdom. No less definite about the origin of Samo is the author of the anonymous Salzburg treatise, “The Conversion of the Bavars and the Quarantine,” which, however, calls him a Slav and a prince of quarantine Slavs (Horutan)

      The ambiguity disappears, if we assume that Samo was born on the territory of the Franks, but was ethnic Slavic.
      1. 0
        October 29 2019
        Quote: Operator
        The ambiguity disappears, if we assume that Samo was born on the territory of the Franks, but was ethnic Slavic.

        In science, ambiguities do not disappear from "suppose." If you have suggested something, then for the disappearance of ambiguities, you, to begin with, must prove your assumption scientifically.
      2. -1
        October 29 2019
        Quote: Operator
        film "Viking" (film consultant - Jewish historian V. Pervukhin).

        Hm. It’s interesting why you have a consultant for shit-driving - Russian V. Pervukhin - a Jewish historian. Is a Jewish emigrant to the USA Klesov a Russian patriot?
        1. 0
          October 29 2019
          Pervukhin by origin is a Jew with the corresponding complexes.

          Klesov is Russian in origin, moreover, from the region (RF, Central Black Earth Region, Kursk Region, Klesovo Village), which is the geographical distribution center of the haplogroup R1a (specific share in the local population over 90%) on the Eurasian continent.
        2. +2
          October 29 2019
          Bravo, Igor !!!
  9. -2
    October 29 2019
    "began to develop the territories of modern East Germany and the coastal territory of the Baltic Sea," - a clear lie.

    Battle of the Tollensee River Valley in the 13th century BC and modern excavations by German archaeologists unequivocally proves that the ancestors of the Slavs lived in Central Europe, starting from the Odra border and further to the east, initially from the moment the glacier retreated - starting from the 9th millennium BC. (as the German archaeologists figuratively say "from magma").

    In the 6th century A.D. The Slavs in the Pannonian Lowland temporarily fell under the rule of the few Avar nomads, but after 100 years they self-organized into the first Slavic state of Samo, after which the Avars "disappeared like obra". As a result, the Central European Slavs - Lusatian Sorbs and White Croats moved to the Byzantine province of Illyria (future Yugoslavia), joining the Vendians who had previously come there - Slovenes.

    This article is a libel on the history of the Central European and southern Slavs.
    1. +9
      October 29 2019
      "Battle of the Tollense River Valley in the 13th century BC" proves only that in the 13th century BC. there was a battle at the Tollense River. But no one knows what languages ​​the participants in that battle spoke.
      1. -7
        October 29 2019
        Quote: alebor
        what languages ​​did the participants speak

        There is no need to slow down: according to DNA analysis of bone remains in the battle in the Tollenze River valley, carriers of the haplogroup R1b took part on the western side, and R1a on the eastern side.
        1. +7
          October 29 2019
          Quote: Operator
          according to DNA analysis of bone remains in the battle in the Tollensee River valley, carriers of the haplogroup R1b took part on the western side and R1a on the eastern side.

          Analysis data in the studio.
          Who, where, when, what exactly analyzed, what are the results in numbers.
          According to Tatar historians, genetic studies have shown that there were Arabs on the right and Jews on the left.
    2. +5
      October 29 2019
      Quote: Operator
      ancestors of the Slavs

      Oh, we have progress ... Not the "Slavs" themselves, but their "ancestors". Well, I'll tell you a secret: the ancestors of the Slavs lived in the Stone Age, and even in the Mesozoic era, they were swarming somewhere. Small ones, hairy or scaly, on four legs. Regarding the achievements of German archaeologists, I would like to know in more detail - on what, interestingly, grounds your statement is based that in 9 - 000 BC. e. the ancestors of the Slavs crawled across Europe in the indicated area, and not, for example, the Balts or someone else.
      1. +3
        October 29 2019
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Quote: Operator
        ancestors of the Slavs

        Oh, we have progress ... Not the "Slavs" themselves, but their "ancestors". Well, I'll tell you a secret: the ancestors of the Slavs lived in the Stone Age, and even in the Mesozoic era, they were swarming somewhere. Small ones, hairy or scaly, on four legs. Regarding the achievements of German archaeologists, I would like to know in more detail - on what, interestingly, grounds your statement is based that in 9 - 000 BC. e. the ancestors of the Slavs crawled across Europe in the indicated area, and not, for example, the Balts or someone else.

        Seeker let him find it. Feel free to engage in self-education.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  10. The comment was deleted.
    1. +5
      October 29 2019
      In what, it turns out that our full-time site-based Nazi does not support the theory of evolution ... Honestly, I did not even think that everything could be so interesting ... But what then? Creationism Or are you a descendant of aliens? Let’s, boldly, be interesting ...
    2. +3
      October 29 2019
      When there is nothing to object, then they turn to individuals and to insults.
      Great arguments!
  11. +2
    October 29 2019
    Good article. good
    The dark 7th century has become a little clearer. fellow
  12. -2
    October 29 2019
    "Often in the scientific literature there is an opinion about the incipient symbiosis of the Avars with the Slavs, that Byzantine authors often confused one and the other, calling the Slavs in submission Avars"

    If we talk about scientific literature, then there is such a discipline - source study. And one of the basic principles of criticizing historical sources is that the closer the source is to the events that it describes, the more reliable it is.

    But no, Byzantine sources confused everything, but armchair historians composing national myths in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, thanks to their imagination, “sorted them out” so that they made conclusions directly opposite to what the Byzantine authors themselves said.

    Of course, there was no "symbiosis". Of course, no one "confused" anything. The term "Slavs" is not an ethnonym, but a designation of dependent tribes. Therefore, speaking of the "Slavs" as Avars, it was about the Avar contingents recruited not from the Avars themselves, but from the population dependent on them.
    There is no "Slavic" race, no "Slavic" ethnos, no "Slavic" haplogroups. And even the "Slavic" languages ​​created on the basis of an artificial Church Slavonic language are by and large not "Slavic"
    1. +2
      October 30 2019
      cabinet historians

      and understood non-cabinet rooms?
      and source science is not part of desk science?
      By the way ... hi
  13. 0
    October 29 2019
    Soon there will be no Egyptians, no Sumerians, no Greeks with the Romans - there will be only solid Slavs. Everywhere.

    This is just some kind of holiday.
  14. 0
    October 30 2019
    Quote: 210ox
    Actually, they date back to the 7-8 century.

    I specifically do not follow the work in Gnezdovo. But a couple of years ago about the mounds of the 7th-8th centuries. there was no talk. Found something new?
    1. +1
      October 30 2019
      Michael,
      good evening,
      surprised himself
      leafed through the last anniversary collection on Gnezdovo: the question revolves around the IX century. I did not find the info below.
      1. +1
        October 31 2019
        Good evening.
        About IX century conversations, as if, have been going on for a long time, even Lebedev had about a gold coin from the time of Filofei in some Scandinavian burial ... But, as I understand it, even then the burial itself could not be reliably dated. And in any case, this is not the 7th-8th centuries.
        I think there is hardly anything in Gnezdovo that can be reliably dated at least the beginning of the 9th century. Slavic funerary equipment, as I understand it, is too poor for this, and then the Scandinavians there, most likely, simply weren’t there yet. Settled and in droves, of course.
        1. 0
          October 31 2019
          I agree with you!
  15. +2
    October 30 2019
    It would be interesting to read the correspondence polemic of the author with the historian Sergei Lesny, who wrote a collection of articles "History in an Uncorrupted Form", which contains a meticulous analysis of the official history of the Slavs in the Balkans, the Danube and the Black Sea region (of course, with reference to the works of ancient and medieval historians).
    1. +1
      October 30 2019
      I do not know what to say. wink
  16. -3
    October 30 2019
    Quote: Bully
    with the historian Sergei Lesny, who wrote the collection of articles "History in an Uncorrupted Form"

    Sergey Lesnoy is the literary pseudonym of Doctor of Biological Sciences Sergei Yakovlevich Paramonov, who in 1941 was the director of the Zoological Museum of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences in Kiev, was deported to Germany during the German occupation and imprisoned in the Münden concentration camp, where he was emigrated from, after which he emigrated. to Australia, where until his death in 1967, he served as professor at Canberra National University

    Since 1953 S.Ya.Paramonov published at his own expense a number of articles in Russian on the ancient history of the Slavs, which were then included in the author's monograph "History of the Russians in an uncorrupted form", as well as other articles published in small editions abroad.

    The monograph is available at https://e-libra.ru/read/397166-rus-otkuda-ty.html

    Other works of S.Ya. Paramonov:
    A word about Igor's Regiment. Study in four volumes. To the 150 anniversary of publication. (Paris, 1950-53)
    Devilry under the Bald Mountain (Paris, 1952)
    The history of "Russ" in an unverified form (Paris; Munich, 1953 — 60)
    Revision of the basics of the history of the Slavs (Melbourne, 1956)
    Who created the ancient Russia: Slavs or Germans? (Paris, 1960, Renaissance No. 108)
    Russia, where are you from? (Winnipeg, 1962; reprinted: Rostov n / a, 1995)
    Veles Book (Winnipeg, 1966; reprinted: Moscow, 2002)
    From the distant past of the Slavs (Melbourne, 1967)
    Collection of publications 1960 — 1967 (St. Petersburg, 2012 year)

    The historical works of S.Ya. Paramonov were hushed up in the USSR because of his emigrant position and numerous contradictions with official historical science, the basis of which was formed by historians of Jewish origin in order to belittle the contribution of the Russian people to the creation and development of their own state.

    Despite some anachronisms, "History of the Russians in an uncorrupted form" correctly reflects the history of the Slavs, incl. Rus / Rusich / Russians. In particular, S.Ya.Paramonov was the first to draw attention to the true formulation of the purpose of inviting the prince of the Rus Rurik by the elders of the Slovenian tribe, designated in the PVL as: "Our land is great and abundant, but there is no dress in it" ruler, and not order, as presented by Soviet historians of Jewish origin.
  17. 0
    December 6 2019
    Of course the article is interesting. But the same questions always arise ... Why are such conclusions and conclusions made based on even historical sources? Which, as in that joke, and illegal and illogical ....
    1. 0
      5 September 2020
      Quote: Sergey79
      Why are such conclusions and conclusions drawn even on historical sources? Which, as in that joke, are both illegal and illogical ...

      You understand that there are seekers of truth. And there are grant-eaters who take a construct idea and stuff them with separate facts and links. The author does not care that everything is pouring out of him. You can just ignore it.
  18. 0
    5 September 2020
    "Authoritarian" is not negative here
    but the term did not and does not have negative content, perhaps only in the heads of the liberals. request

"Right Sector" (banned in Russia), "Ukrainian Insurgent Army" (UPA) (banned in Russia), ISIS (banned in Russia), "Jabhat Fatah al-Sham" formerly "Jabhat al-Nusra" (banned in Russia) , Taliban (banned in Russia), Al-Qaeda (banned in Russia), Anti-Corruption Foundation (banned in Russia), Navalny Headquarters (banned in Russia), Facebook (banned in Russia), Instagram (banned in Russia), Meta (banned in Russia), Misanthropic Division (banned in Russia), Azov (banned in Russia), Muslim Brotherhood (banned in Russia), Aum Shinrikyo (banned in Russia), AUE (banned in Russia), UNA-UNSO (banned in Russia), Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People (banned in Russia), Legion “Freedom of Russia” (armed formation, recognized as terrorist in the Russian Federation and banned)

“Non-profit organizations, unregistered public associations or individuals performing the functions of a foreign agent,” as well as media outlets performing the functions of a foreign agent: “Medusa”; "Voice of America"; "Realities"; "Present time"; "Radio Freedom"; Ponomarev; Savitskaya; Markelov; Kamalyagin; Apakhonchich; Makarevich; Dud; Gordon; Zhdanov; Medvedev; Fedorov; "Owl"; "Alliance of Doctors"; "RKK" "Levada Center"; "Memorial"; "Voice"; "Person and law"; "Rain"; "Mediazone"; "Deutsche Welle"; QMS "Caucasian Knot"; "Insider"; "New Newspaper"