The first state of the Slavs

Entry


Article “Slavs on the threshold of statehood” we have identified important points the beginning of the formation of the Slavic state mechanism and the foreign policy situation.



Himself and his warriors. Fig. the author


With the beginning of the 7th century, a new migration movement of the Slavs began, which occupied the entire Balkan Peninsula (see map), the territory of the Eastern Alps, and began to develop the territories of modern East Germany and the coastal territory of the Baltic Sea.


Slavic tribes of the Balkan Peninsula and Peloponnese. Source: Sedov V.V. Slavs. Old Russian nationality. M., 2005. C. 412


In the same period, the most famous and significant early state association of the Slavs was formed - the kingdom of Samo.

The first one. It should be understood that, from a scientific point of view, the formation of a state is a long process, in the twentieth century, historians have identified a number of the most important stages of pre-state and early state formations, parallels with formations. True, work in this direction continues. It is primarily about European nations.

Considering the state only as an institution of violence is a thing of the past, first of all, it is the mechanisms necessary for governance and security, which are necessary for society itself. It was they who contributed to the formation of early state formations (a term that we will repeat more than once, speaking about the beginning of statehood among the Slavs).

The second one. In a series of articles posted on "VO", we gradually examined the development of the Slavs described in modern scientific historiography.

We repeat once again: the conditional lag of the Slavs from their Indo-European counterparts, for example, the East Germans, was associated with the later formation of the Slavs as an ethnos, powerful enemies also impeded this development (Goths, Huns, Avars), but, after going through a number of historical upheavals, the Slavs approached the formation of the early states.

Once again about the premises


The defeat that the "nomadic empire" Avar suffered under Constantinople became a catalyst for the beginning of the collapse of this steppe state. What is reflected in archeology: burial grounds of this period are sharply poorer than the previous one, and this happens until the 70 of the VII century. (Dime F., Somogy P.).

The performances of the Slavs and the Bulgars against the hegemony of the Avars in Podunavye began in the 20 years of the 7th century, even before the Kagan’s campaign against Constantinople. And the Avars themselves were far from ethnic unity, since the formation of this community took place in the process of the movement of Avars or “pseudo-Avars” from Central Asia to the steppes of Eastern Europe, and a large number of other tribes joined them, not without reason archaeologists indicate that the funeral rite of the Avars in Hungary differs in detail from settlement to settlement. Indirectly, the events of 602 testify to this, when part of the Avars passed to the Byzantine emperor.

Often in the scientific literature there is an opinion about the symbiosis of the Avars that began with the Slavs, that Byzantine authors often confused one and the other, referring to the Slavs who are subordinate to the Avars. It would seem that Fredegar’s story that the revolt against the Avars was raised by the children of Slavs born from the Avars reinforces these arguments. This история more reminiscent of a “flying plot” than a reflection of real events: it was the “yoke” itself, which was extremely difficult, that was the cause of the Slavic movement against the Avars.

Actually, this consumer attitude to human resources came from the Avar system itself, and was quite typical for this period. We have the opportunity to reconstruct this system based on data on the power of the Turks.

The Türks, who received the first state “experience” within the state of the Juan Juan or Avar, being their “slaves”, had the following state structure.

The duty of the kagan is to take care of its people day and night, to expand its borders and wealth. The world seems to be divided into its own “state" and enemies, which can either become "slaves" of various degrees and levels, or perish. Thus, both the Antes and Byzantium paid the Avars "tribute."

On the territory of Pannonia were dependent on the Avars, but privileged in the VII century. territories in the area of ​​Lake Balaton, known as the Keszthely (Kestelian) culture with a handicraft Romanian population (A.K. Ambrose).

But this did not change the main paradigm: all subordinate tribes of the Bulgars, Gepids and Slavs, the local Romanized population and the resettled inhabitants of Byzantium were considered as “slaves” of the Avars.

Moreover, the vast majority of “subjects” (υπήκóους) were precisely the Slavs, as indicated by archaeological data (V. Sedov).

One should not confuse complete slavery and the institution of submission, which has a similar name. When at the end of the 6th century the Turkic Yshbara Kagan was offered to become a vassal of the Sui emperor Kin-tse, they clarified this concept, which he could not take: “a vassal in the kingdom of Sui means the same as the word slave” (Bichurin N.Ya. )

Violence as an element of control was key in the structure of the Avar Kagan, which stemmed from the idea of ​​the structure of the “state” and the world, and it is natural that, with the slightest weakening of their primitive military-clan structure, subordinate peoples immediately rebelled or fell away. What happened in the 20-X-30-s of the VII century.

Alpine Slavs


The migration of the Slavs of the Slovenian group to the Eastern Alps began in the 50 of the VI century, firstly, due to the relocation of the Lombards from Panonia to Italy, and secondly, under the influence and pressure of the Avars. Here, at the crossroads of strategic roads, the Principality of Karantan is forming, now the territory of Slovenia, some territories of the alpine part of Austria and Italy. Here, the Slovenian Union was forced to interact in different ways with militarily powerful neighbors: Avars, Lombards and Franks. Already in 599, for the Slavs living in the upper Drava River, in the Eastern Alps, Avars entered the battle against the early state formation of the Bavars. And in 605, an army from the Slavs was sent across these limits by the kagan to Italy to the Lombards. They were obviously not from these areas, since these lands for some time fell into dependence on the Friulian Duke, that is, the Lombards.

In 611 or 612, Alpine Slavs were already able to independently attack the Bavar from Tyrol. The Bavars were a powerful tribal unit that successfully fought the Franks dominating in Western Europe.


Armament and belt set. Bavaria. VII century GE. Author photo


A number of campaigns, which we know about, testify to the growth of the military power of the Alpine Slavs, who make campaigns against strong neighbors.

The unification process was ongoing in this part of the Slavic world, but the transition to statehood, as elsewhere, was restrained by archaic tribal relations: the transition to a territorial community has not yet occurred.

In the 30 of the VII century. this early state formation was included or joined the first Slavic state of Samo, and after the collapse of this union tries to act independently among the more powerful political and military state associations.

Western Slavs


When we talk about the western direction of migration, we are primarily talking about the colonization stream of Slavs or Sklavins, which formed a community of Alpine and Western Slavs, with the subsequent arrival of Antian tribal groups here.

The first state of the Slavs

Map of the promotion of the Slavs in East Germany. By Die Slawen in Deutschland. Herausgegeben von J. Herrmann, Berlin.1985. P. 28.


In the VI century, the Slavs (Prague-Korchak archaeological culture) advanced into the middle reaches of the Elbe (Laba), and in the VII century. to the right tributary of the Elbe is Havel (in Serbian - Gavola) and the tributary of the latter is the Spree (Berlin stands on these rivers). The Slavic tribes of Tornovo culture or Luzhansky and Rusensky culture - sorbians (Serbs) occupy, respectively, Luzhitsa, and sorbians the territory between Zaale (both banks) and Elba. So, in this region two Slavic ethnic groups formed. Sorbians or Serbs, obviously, part of the Antian tribes, enter into military clashes with the Slovenes settled here, for example, the Tornov fortification (ancient settlement in the Spree river basin) was built on the site of a burnt out settlement.


Fortify Thorns. Reconstruction: K. Kalo. VIII-IX centuries. Die Slawen in Deutschland. Herausgegeben von J. Herrmann, Berlin.1985. P. 175


Militant sorbes became “vassals” of the kingdom of the Franks and took part in its struggle with the disobedient Germanic tribes, probably this dependence was nominal. And during the formation of a super union of fellow tribesmen, the prince (dux) Dervan “indulged with his people the kingdom of Samo.” Thus, the newly formed Slavic proto-states could immediately face off against German tribal unions. A little later, the Saxons, who demanded gifts from the Franks for the struggle against the Slavs, did not participate in it or did not decide to participate in it.

This prince is just one of the leaders of the resettlement movement. A possible etymology of his name is interesting: Dervan, - * dervín, 'old, senior.

The formation of the first Slavic state


In the 20-ies in the west of the Avar Khaganate began the movement of the Slavs, resulting in an uprising against the Hagan almost simultaneously with the events during the siege of Constantinople, when the Slavic army left the battlefield first, causing the Hagan to leave.

This movement, which arose on the western outskirts of the Avars, at first did not bother them, since they were undertaking a powerful military enterprise against Constantinople at that time, but the defeat at the Byzantine capital and military pressure from the Slavs changed the situation.

So, the Slavs went on a campaign against the Avar lords, at the same time, according to Fredegar, the only source on these events, merchants from the Franks, that is, from the territory of the former Western Roman Empire, which during the previous century was conquered by the Franks, arrive to them. with the participation of Turinogs, Burgundians, etc. Merchants sold to the Slavs weapons and horse equipment, and given the start of the war, these things were probably in great demand:
“In various countries, several hundred Merovingian swords of the Frankish and Alaman production of the 5th-7th centuries were found. They were made using a rather sophisticated method. ”

(Cardini F.)

These merchants were led by a certain Samo. It is believed that he was not actually a Frank (who were not engaged in trade), but a citizen of the "barbarian kingdom" of the Merovingians, a gall (Celt) or a gallorimlian, there is even a mention in the anonymous Salzburg treatise of the 9th century. "Conversion of the Bavars and Quarantines," that he, in fact, was a Slav. This gives rise to researchers to put forward, of course, the disputed version that Samo is not a proper name, but a title similar to the term "autocratic".

And this Samo joined the Slavic campaign, the merchantry in the early Middle Ages was a risky craft, about how the Slavs robbed the Frankish merchants, later reports Fredegar, therefore there is nothing surprising in the fact that the merchants were also warriors. “However, those merchants of the early period,” wrote A.Ya. Gurevich, - who did not engage in robbery were not deprived of militancy. "

Himself, who joined the enterprise, promising many benefits, proved himself in the war and was chosen as a leader or "king".

The Slavs, subjects to the Avar, had their clan organization and army, but it seems that they did not have permanent military leaders, and leaders appeared during campaigns and raids. Himself, who went with them on a campaign against the Avars, acted very actively in the battle. As a result, the Slavs, completely in the tradition of tribal democracy and considering its “utility” (utilitas), elected Himself as prince or king (rex), who were led by them for 35 years (Lovmyansky H.).

Until now, there is no exact data on where the territory of these Slavs was located, it is clear that they went to the borders of the Franks, Thuringians, Alpine Slavs and Sorbians (Serbs). But it is difficult to agree with the fact that they were exclusively Western or part of the southern Slavs, who were not so much subordinate to the Avars as those who lived with them. As Pavel Deacon wrote, when the Bavars attacked the Alpine Slavs living in the upper reaches of the Drava River, the Avars came to their aid, covering a great distance, so that the distances were not an insurmountable obstacle.

Proceeding, firstly, from an understanding of the structure of the nomadic “proto-state,” and, secondly, information that deposition from the kaganate was caused by direct “tormenting,” that is, the presence of Avars in the territory of Slavic settlements in the winter season, we can to go only about those Slavs who were not just “tributaries”, but a subjugated tribe of “slaves”.


The priming of wives with images. Radzivilov Chronicle. Miniature


The liberation of the Slavs was achieved as a result of their repeated battles under the leadership of Samo and ended by 630. Fredegar writes about the campaigns, it can be assumed that these campaigns were to be carried out precisely in the region of the Avar nomads.

It is important that the war on the part of the Slavs was waged by the entire tribal army, judging by the further developments after the death of Samo, the retinue organization was absent. But, given the different types of equipment and weapons of the Slavs and Avars, this struggle was not easy.

Thus, the first state or proto-state association of the Slavs was formed approximately on a large territory of Moravia, part of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, Austria, as well as on the lands of the Lusatian Serbs and Alpine Slavs. Of course, given the historical realities, it was most likely a union of tribal unions, and not a state, a “confederation", to which different tribes joined and fell away (Petrukhin V.Ya.).

So, we can say that after the first attempt to create the super-union of God by the Slavs-Antes in the face of an apparently unfavorable environment, the first Slavic “state” arose.

This state, or proto-state formation, had to immediately begin military operations against its neighbors, however, the war at this stage was an important component of its formation.

It so happened that the Slavs killed on their territory a group of merchants. The incident with the assassination of Frankish merchants triggered the fighting of a new entity with the state of the Franks. The arrogant ambassador of the Franks Sychary personally insulted Samo, in response to his moderate words said:
“It is not possible for Christians and servants of God to establish friendship with dogs.”


He himself objected:
“If you are slaves to God, and we are dogs to God, then while you are constantly acting against Him, we are allowed to torment you with bites.”


And Sychary was expelled. Nevertheless, it can be assumed that Samo did not seek collisions, even under the conditions that the Franks, after defeating the Avars as allies, were not needed by the Slavs, as some researchers claim.

Rather, those properties for which Itself was chosen, implied reasonableness in relations with neighbors, but the king of the Franks decided differently.

Dagobert I (603-639 gg.) Moved an army from all over his country against the Slavs, he also hired the Lombards, and Aleks dependent on Franks also took part in the campaign.

If the Lombards and Alemanni most likely raided the lands of the Slavs, the first, apparently, to the neighboring Alpine Slavs, and left home with great fullness, then the Franks invaded the territory of the state of Samo. Here he besieged the Venids (Slavs) in the Vogastisburg fortress. It is not known where this fortress was located: some researchers believe that in the place of modern Bratislava, others, objecting to them, note that Bratislava is located far from the alleged theater of war, there are three more hypotheses on its location: in North-West Bohemia and Franconia, but none of them is archaeologically confirmed, a powerful fortification was excavated on Mount Rubin near Podborzany in North-West Bohemia, which can be connected with Vogastisburk, finally, this castrum could be in the land of Sorbov, where we have many fortified rodisch this period, including Forberg or turn with shaft height 10-14 meters and moat 5-8 m.


Mountain and castle Divin. Bratislava


The Slavs, who were seated in the “castle”, showed active resistance, and “many of Dagobert’s troops were destroyed there with the sword”, which forced the king’s army to flee, leaving “all the tents and things”.

In response, the Slavs began to make successful raids on Thuringia, and the sorbs of Dervan participated in this as the closest neighbors of the Germans, who joined the Samo union. The border of the Frankish state was open until 633-634, when, after trying to attract the Saxons to fight the Slavs, Dagobert organized the defense of borders by central authorities, solving not only the issue of combating invasions, but also ensuring the subordination of Thuringians.

Border clashes become permanent, presumably during this period, the construction of hailstones with powerful fortifications began among the Western Slavs.

Active actions of the Slavs itself were also possible because, most likely, after the victories of tributary Slavs to the struggle against the Avars or for hegemony in Pannonia, other Avar “slaves” —the Bulgars or proto-Bulgarians, the descendants of the Utigurs and Kutrigurs, or only the Kutrigurs, tribes conquered aliens from Altai (Artamonov M.I., Vernadsky G.V.).

These events take place in the 631-633 years, the Avars defended their right to be the main ones in the Danube, the Bulgars fled: some to the Black Sea steppes to related tribes, others in the amount of ten thousand people, with wives and children, through the possessions of the Slavs, to the Bavars, where they were all killed one night. Only Alzioka was saved with seven hundred warriors, and their wives and children, they went to the Alpine Slavs and lived there with their prince Valukka (etymology: * vladyka or vel'k, 'great, old), later moving to Italy, as Pavel Deacon wrote about.

However, in 658 Mr. Samo died, the early state of the Slavs, led by him, collapsed. He had 12 Slavic wives, 22 son and 15 daughters.

Why was the life of this first Slavic association so fleeting?


A universal condition, as anthropologists note, in the event of an end to an external threat was the need to take over management functions from the military top. These leadership functions justify the existence of military power in the eyes of society, in peace. But if this does not happen, then in the event of a decrease in the external threat, and even then when the death of the authoritarian military leader occurs, the collapse of such an alliance is inevitable, which happened to the state itself (the "authoritarian" is not negative in content).

The tribes themselves were governed by the heads of the clans - the elders, the prince was necessary for combining military efforts, we don’t have any data on the availability of our own squads, of course, Samo also had some kind of military detachment, but this was not a German squad of this period, so the death of the prince entailed the end of the association.

In the second half of the VII century. there was a weakening of the Slovenian principality (Carantania), the collapse of the Serbian and Croatian alliance into separate archonies (E. Naumov).

It was this weakness of the early pre-state institutions among the Slavs in the middle of the 7th century. made it possible for the Avar state to recover and regain power over many Slavic associations, although, of course, not on as many harsh conditions as before. “The reason that the Avar power survived the crisis,” writes archaeologist F. Dime, “is rightly found in the weaknesses of neighbors.”

But the beginning of the Slavic states was laid.

To be continued ...

Sources and literature:

The so-called Chronicle of Fredegar. Translation V.K. Ronin // Codex of the oldest written news about the Slavs. T.I. M., 1995.
Chronicle of Fredegar. Translation, comments and entry. Article by G.A.Schmidt St. Petersburg, 2015.
Bichurin N.Ya. A collection of information about the peoples who lived in Central Asia in ancient times. Part one. Central Asia and South Siberia. M., 1950.
Artamonov M.I. History of the Khazars. SPb., 2001.
Vernadsky G.V. Ancient Russia. Tver - Moscow. 1996.
Gurevich A.Ya. Medieval Merchant // Odyssey. The man in history. M., 1990.
Dime F. History and archeology avar. // MAIET. Simferopol. 2002.
Cardini F. The origins of medieval chivalry. M., 1987.
Klyashtorny S.G. History of Central Asia and monuments of runic writing. SPb., 2003.
Lovmyansky H. Russia and the Normans. M., 1995.
Naumov E.P. Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian and Dalmatian zones in the 7th - 11th centuries / History of Europe. Medieval Europe. M., 1992.
Petrukhin V.Ya. Comments // Lovmyansky H. Russia and the Normans. M., 1995.
Sedov V.V. Slavs. Old Russian nationality. M., 2005.
Shinakov E.A., Erokhin A.S., Fedosov A.V. Ways to the state: Germans and Slavs. Pre-state stage. M., 2013.
Die Slawen in Deutschland. Herausgegeben von J. Herrmann, Berlin.1985.
Kunstmann H. Samo, Dervanus und der Slovenenfürst Wallucus // Die Welt der Slaven. 1980. V. 25.
Kunstmann H. Was besagt der Name Samo, und wo liegt Wogastisburg? // Die Welt der Slaven. 1979. V. 24.
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  1. Andrey Sukharev 29 October 2019 05: 57 New
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    Thanks to the author! An interesting science-based article, and not "fantasy", as some comrades ...
    1. Gardamir 29 October 2019 06: 08 New
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      Imagine after a while new data will appear, and it turns out that the author wrote a fantasy.
      You just like this theory of history.
      1. 210ox 29 October 2019 06: 44 New
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        The name "Smolensk" was touched in Greece ..... Honestly, when I started reading, I thought that Samsonov had sprinkled again .. Why don’t you write about the Gnezdovsky mounds in the upper Dnieper ... For me, everything is from there .. Well, or one of the parts is real, not alternative.
        1. rich 29 October 2019 07: 14 New
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          Well, it’s interesting to read such articles, especially the links to the sources.
          thank you
        2. Mcar 29 October 2019 08: 20 New
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          Quote: 210ox
          Touched by the name "Smolensk" in Greece ....

          And how I was touched by the absence of the Greeks on the map of the Balkans. And where did they live, live? ..
          1. 210ox 29 October 2019 08: 44 New
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            Maybe we have long been Greeks ..? what
            1. Mcar 29 October 2019 09: 12 New
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              Quote: 210ox
              Maybe we have long been Greeks ..? what

              And it depends on how to read the Latin name of Hellas - Greco. It is possible as a Greek, but it is possible as a priest. If the language is not Greek but priestly, then all possible questions, such as where the Greeks lived, were until the 19th century, why the Greeks of modern Greece call their language Hellenic, themselves Hellenes, and the country Hellas and many others, disappear.
            2. Doliva63 29 October 2019 16: 27 New
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              Quote: 210ox
              Maybe we have long been Greeks ..? what

              Do we already have "everything"? laughing
          2. Edward Vashchenko 29 October 2019 09: 26 New
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            Good afternoon,
            This map is not about everyone who lived, lived, but about the resettlement of Slavic tribes.
            1. Mcar 29 October 2019 09: 33 New
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              Quote: Edward Vashchenko
              Good afternoon,
              This map is not about everyone who lived, lived, but about the resettlement of Slavic tribes.

              And good hour to you! hi

              Therefore, let’s write it down: the Hellenes are the most peaceful people - whole tribes roam back and forth across their lands, and they only know the loaves on the rushnyks.
            2. Edward Vashchenko 29 October 2019 09: 37 New
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              By the way, in the ethnogenesis of modern Greeks - the Slavs took part, who completely occupied the habitats of the Greeks in the Balkans in the 7th-9th centuries, about which there will be another article.
            3. Trilobite Master 29 October 2019 11: 49 New
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              Good afternoon, Edward.
              After the enchanting delirium and the ensuing frenzy that occurred here on Friday, your article is like a breath of fresh air. One return of the formidable ghost of the past venaya, who promised to put things in order here, I almost died of fear when I read it all on Sunday .. laughing wassat
              However, I have a question on the merits of the article.
              What specific signs allow us to define the state itself as a state, and on the basis of what data are these signs derived?
              1. Edward Vashchenko 29 October 2019 15: 08 New
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                Michael welcome !!!
                This, of course, is not about a real state, since there is no state without class formation, but about early test forms, pre-state, etc.
                Traditionally they write - this is the first Slavic state, the essence of it is "chiefdom".
                However, around there were the same "barbaric" pre-class states or of the period when class formation began (the kingdom of the Franks).
                But as I noted, this mechanism, at this stage: the mechanism - there and back, after the disappearance of a strong leader, and the lack of need for such a mechanism, swung back:
                A universal condition, as anthropologists note, in the event of an end to an external threat was the need to take over management functions from the military top. These leadership functions justify the existence of military power in the eyes of society, in peace. But if this does not happen, then in the event of a decrease in the external threat, and even then when the death of the authoritarian military leader occurs, the collapse of such an alliance is inevitable, which happened to the state itself (the "authoritarian" is not negative in content).

                The latest work in this direction: Shinakov E.A., Erokhin A.S., Fedosov A.V. Ways to the state: Germans and Slavs. Pre-state stage. M., 2013.
                And so, A.I. Neusykhin, A.Ya. Gurevich, I.Ya. Froyanov, L.E. Kubbel and others.
                Hopefully answered?
                hi
                1. Trilobite Master 30 October 2019 00: 09 New
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                  Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                  Hopefully answered?

                  Thanks. In general, I heard about what I expected, which is nice. So my ideas about this era and its main processes, in general, are adequate. smile
                  Thanks again for the article. hi
                  1. Edward Vashchenko 30 October 2019 09: 33 New
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                    Mutually, always nice hi
              2. 3x3zsave 29 October 2019 19: 15 New
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                Michael! hi And I was going to send you an SMS: our happiness has come, Venya is back! laughing
                1. Trilobite Master 30 October 2019 00: 17 New
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                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  Venya is back!

                  And you met him like that ... Maybe after all, and again to disappear for many years.
                  By the way, here some colleagues, who recently joined the discussions in this section, might have a little bewilderment - what kind of Venia we sometimes remembered here in vain ... So it was he, that one. Those who wish can appreciate the charisma of the character.
              3. Mikhail Matyugin 30 October 2019 01: 20 New
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                Quote: Trilobite Master
                After the enchanting delirium and the ensuing frenzy that occurred here on Friday, your article is like a breath of fresh air.

                Truly the right words! Many thanks to Edward for such a great article!
            4. AK1972 29 October 2019 14: 13 New
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              Eduard, thanks for the article, but it's still interesting to find out where the Smolensk came from in Greece. Enlighten please, if not difficult.
              1. Edward Vashchenko 29 October 2019 15: 00 New
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                Alex,
                Smolensk - this is one of the Slavic tribes, possibly from the Antian union, which came to Greece. As suggested by V.V. Sedov - Smolensk on the territory of the Krivichi, could also be founded by the "tar", a tribe that may have been part of the union of the Krivichi tribes.
                Here, by the way, the question was raised about Gnezdovo, there are many theories about it. One of them - since archaeologically Smolensk in the X century. not visible, Gnezdovo was initially Smolensky, and then there was a “transfer” or synoykia, an institution known in history: the transfer of the city - the tribal center - and the formation of the tribal center-city.
                And about the name of the Slavic tribes, we have the same names for you in different parts of Europe: Slovenes and Slovenia, Ilmen, glade (Poles) and Kiev, Serbs: in Illyria, Thrace and central Europe, Croats, Dregovics, etc. hi
                1. 210ox 29 October 2019 17: 54 New
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                  For reference, Gnezdovo (Goats Mountains) is located six kilometers in a straight line from the historical center. Now it is one of the microdistricts of the city.
        3. Trilobite Master 29 October 2019 10: 45 New
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          Quote: 210ox
          Why don’t you write about the Gnezdovsky mounds in the upper Dnieper.

          The first mounds there, it seems, were X century ... And they are Scandinavian. request
          1. 210ox 29 October 2019 17: 59 New
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            Actually, they date back to the 7-8th century. Probably about the Scandinavian ones. There, in my small homeland, I ran the path "from the Varangians to the Greeks." Between the current Velizh on the Western Dvina and Smolensky on the Dnieper, there was a land section. Although it is partially land, there are a lot of rivers and lakes.
        4. AK1972 29 October 2019 12: 54 New
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          Touched by the name "Smolensk" in Greece ....

          So I, too, immediately drew attention to the Smolensk Aegean coast and rushed down the article, being sure that I would see Samsonov’s signature. Having seen the signature of the respected Eduard Vashchenko, I return to the beginning.
        5. fuxila 29 October 2019 15: 08 New
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          And what really touched you? During the resettlement, the Slavic tribes were crushed into pieces, in the end, yesterday's relatives were at a distance of hundreds of miles from each other. So some encouraged reached the Baltic, while others went to the Balkans, like the Serbs, glades lived in Poland and the Dnieper, Croats - in Russia, the Czech Republic and the Balkans, etc. As for the Smolensk, that is, the version that the name Smolensk just happened on behalf of this tribe. By the way, the north lived near the Smolyan, and the northerners lived in Russia.
      2. Andrey Sukharev 29 October 2019 10: 36 New
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        Imagine after a while new data will appear, and it turns out that the author wrote a fantasy.
        You just like this theory of history.

        The author wrote an article based on available factual material.
        Like it or not, it doesn't matter. History, as a science, is also developing.
        1. Doliva63 29 October 2019 16: 34 New
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          Quote: Andrey Sukharev
          Imagine after a while new data will appear, and it turns out that the author wrote a fantasy.
          You just like this theory of history.

          The author wrote an article based on available factual material.
          Like it or not, it doesn't matter. History, as a science, is also developing.

          Here, not the actual material, but a free interpretation of it. The factual material claims that the Slavs came from the south-west coast of the Baltic, and the author came from anywhere. Given that in terms of archeology there is nothing new in this regard for about 50 years, it is ridiculous to read this.
    2. kalibr 29 October 2019 07: 26 New
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      Regardless of the content of the article, it should be emphasized that it is beautifully designed, and that is how it is necessary to write articles on historical topics. That is, you write about the Anahuaks from Nibiru - you indicate where it came from.
    3. Vend 29 October 2019 09: 55 New
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      These merchants were led by a certain Samo. It is believed that he was not actually a Frank (who were not engaged in trade), but a subject of the "barbarian kingdom" of the Merovingians, a gall (Celt) or a gallorimlian, there is even a mention in the anonymous Salzburg treatise of the 9th century. "Conversion of the Bavars and Quarantines," that he, in fact, was a Slav.
      In the citizenship of the Franks were Slavs. So the theory of Slavism itself is not without meaning.
      1. fuxila 29 October 2019 15: 14 New
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        Quite right, given that his name is also quite Slavic, names of this type are known from history: Sambir, Samovit, Samoslav, Samorad, etc.
    4. Vol4ara 29 October 2019 10: 23 New
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      Wow, a good article is like a breath of fresh air, and it’s already become nauseous from the Fomenophiles.
  2. Talgarets 29 October 2019 06: 18 New
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    Now Natsik will run ...
  3. vomag 29 October 2019 06: 25 New
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    Again 7-9 centuries .. again, either the Slavs or the Slovens coming from nowhere ... can be seen from Mars or Jupiter ... but where were they before? But there wasn’t a black hole here! The so-called Slavs are just a part tribal union called the Gunas ... and really we do not need to write fantasy here about the Slavs from alpha centauri ..
    1. Boris55 29 October 2019 08: 01 New
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      Quote: vomag
      here we don’t need to write fantasy about the Slavs from alpha centauri

      The famous showman Solovyov put forward an alternative point of view on the question of where the Slavs came from: Jews came to the territory of modern Russia in the second century and by means of the "name" of the Aborigines, by the sixth century created a new tribe, calling it Slavs. Do not believe? Watch a very short video. laughing

      1. Vlasik 29 October 2019 08: 58 New
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        The fact that such historical blackness before the formation of the Slavic tribes, the very same Jews were to blame, they consider themselves an ancient people, but at the same time having no whatsoever, the ancient "Tsegan" went and lived where they were allowed
        1. Hantengri 29 October 2019 09: 06 New
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          Quote: Vlasik

          The fact that such historical blackness before the formation of Slavic tribes, in fact, the very same are to blame, the Jews

          How is this?
        2. voyaka uh 29 October 2019 17: 25 New
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          "the same are to blame, the Jews, they consider themselves ancient people" ////
          ----
          The Jews are to blame even in bad weather: this is an axiom and they do not argue with it. laughing
          But antiquity is one-person: in comparison with the Egyptians or Sumerians, the Jews are a group of kindergarten.
          And the supercivilization of antiquity, like the Egyptians or Sumerians, the Jews never were. I would not like to. crying
          1. Mikhail Matyugin 30 October 2019 01: 24 New
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            Quote: voyaka uh
            But antiquity is one-person: in comparison with the Egyptians or Sumerians, the Jews are a group of kindergarten.

            Well, no, it’s rather just a class younger. With Sumerians, there is no exact clarity so far, and so what are you embarrassed about, are their northern neighbors from Upper and Center. Iraq are Akkadians, and so, Akkadian genetic remnants are quite traceable to several ethnic groups of the Vostok, including part of the population of modern Israel .
            1. voyaka uh 30 October 2019 02: 04 New
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              Well, yes, forefather Abraham with his tribe came to Hannan from the Iraqi city of Ur.
              But this is a kinship with the Akkadyans, and not the continuity of civilization.
              When the ancient Jews moved to Egyptian lands, fleeing many years
              the drought that swept Judea and fell into "vassal" dependence on Egypt
              kingdoms, they were still a shepherd’s people, not civilization.
              On returning from Egypt, the Jews, having gained Egyptian experience, were able to
              create a developed state of kings - successively - Saul-David-Solomon.
    2. gorenina91 29 October 2019 08: 43 New
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      Yes, I agree with you ...
      - Again the same thing ...
      -When they undertake to describe the history of Mesopotamia, Assyria, Egypt .., state the laws of Hammurabi, etc. ... -so everything is clear, detailed and consistent ...- and artifacts a whole bunch ... -But this is a solid antiquity .. .
      -And about the Slavs ... -so everything is concise, schematic and not very concrete ... -And after all, the 7th-9th centuries A.D. -It's almost a modern story ... -Something even a shame ...
      -But, we must pay tribute ...- this author at least something outlined ... otherwise it’s usually about the Slavs a couple of lines and two or three short footnotes ...
      1. Edward Vashchenko 29 October 2019 09: 42 New
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        Irina,
        it’s not quite so
        it’s just that on the history of Mesopotamia we also have little information, as on the early history of the Slavs, and the history of Egypt is completely obscured, but these "stories" are of little concern to anyone, and the history of the Slavs, which naturally arouses lively interest. And giant monuments retreated from their civilizations, but for example, according to the history of Egypt - the main sources in ancient Greek, in other words, what the Greeks wrote, in general, far from Egypt.
        Everything stated here is actually all that we have about this period, of course, without archaeological material, but it does not change anything.
        hi
        1. ver_ 12 November 2019 13: 42 New
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          ... according to Academician Klesov, there is a haplogroup of Eastern Slavs R1A, ay Jews Y, so get the hell out of the nose whose ethnic group is older. Scythians have the same R1A ... Jews, they are Jews ...
      2. voyaka uh 29 October 2019 17: 18 New
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        "the history of Mesopotamia, Assyria, Egypt .., state the laws of Hammurabi, etc. ... -so everything is clear, detailed" ///
        ----
        There were several "supercivilizations" of antiquity.
        in the valleys of the rivers Nile, Euphrates, Ganges, Indus.
        With massive monumental construction. And a mass of stone artifacts. Including writing.
        These areas were not covered by the glacier in the last Ice Age and, for this reason, developed several thousand years earlier.
        The areas to the north later became habitable and later developed. It depended on nature, not on the abilities of groups of people.
  4. kalibr 29 October 2019 07: 23 New
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    Quote: Gardamir
    Imagine after a while new data will appear, and it turns out that the author wrote a fantasy.

    Until they appeared ...
  5. Vitaly Tsymbal 29 October 2019 07: 33 New
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    Scientific articles - on the one hand, it is interesting, on the other hand, to start a discussion (agreement or refutation), we need the knowledge of a historian in this field. Therefore, I will say thanks to the author for interesting information. Well, I will advise the “know-it-alls” not to foul up the topic with “idle talk”, and if there is interesting material, expand or clarify the designated topic with your comments. Personally, I’m interested in reading about historical facts, and not about political or personal brawls ...
  6. Olgovich 29 October 2019 07: 33 New
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    An interesting, substantive article: there is something to think about and something to read.
    and it’s good that “superethnos” are not mentioned
    1. rich 29 October 2019 08: 52 New
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      Olgovich (Andrey):and it’s good that “superethnos” are not mentioned

      Andrei hi
      I agree. I took it straight from the tongue
      While writing, Olgovich was quietly slammed minus. Let’s then for me too for the company - I fully support his comments
  7. Ros 56 29 October 2019 07: 50 New
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    I do not understand, but where is the mention of the diggers of the Black Sea, a mess. The author, as usual, on a gilyak. laughing laughing laughing
  8. BAI
    BAI 29 October 2019 08: 58 New
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    In the same period, the most famous and significant early state association of the Slavs was formed - the kingdom of Samo.

    Some kind of cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, the author writes that this is the most significant state association of the Slavs, on the other hand, that’s where it all ends.
    Except for the phrase:
    In the 30 of the VII century. this early state formation was included or joined the first Slavic state of Samo, and after the collapse of this union tries to act independently among the more powerful political and military state associations.

    Probably should refer to:
    The beginning of Russian history. From ancient times to the reign of Oleg
    Tsvetkov Sergey Eduardovich
    ,
    submit a map of the state from there

    and give some explanation from there, for example this:
    Uncertainty prevails primarily in the question of the origin of the Self. In the chronicle of Fredegar - the main source for the history of the Samo Power - this man is named a native of the Sansky district of the Frankish kingdom. No less definite about the origin of Samo is the author of the anonymous Salzburg treatise "The Conversion of the Bavars and the Quarantine," which, however, calls him a Slav and a prince of quarantine Slavs (Horutan).

    and etc.
    1. BAI
      BAI 29 October 2019 09: 05 New
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      By the way, here the reconstruction of the warrior is very different, the presence of a helmet is an essential detail (and a shield of a different shape).


      SLAVS
      The Kingdom of Samo and its neighbors S.V. Alekseev.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Edward Vashchenko 29 October 2019 09: 35 New
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        This is not a reconstruction, but a reproduction, the image is common, but it has nothing to do with the period of the 7th century: not on the shields: the amygdala only appeared - the second half is the end of the 10th century, not by swords - not earlier than the 12th century, the ammunition is the same, yes and helmet - the brink of the X-XI centuries. I repeat, if at all we can talk about illustration, as about reconstruction.
        Article - a professional look at the Slavic weapons of this period will be a little later. hi
    2. Edward Vashchenko 29 October 2019 09: 30 New
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      But why refer to E. Tsvetokov, he does not work in the field of professional history? he is a popularizer.
      All references to key professional works in the article, other works are secondary.
    3. Operator 29 October 2019 11: 22 New
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      Quote: BAI
      present a map of the state

      Tsvetkov Sergey Eduardovich - a certified Russian historian, author of the 4-volume (at the time) monograph "Russian History", as well as many biographical books about Russian historical figures. The author of the scientific analysis of the Russophobic basis of the script for the pseudo-historical film "Viking" (the film's consultant is the Jewish historian V. Pervukhin).
      Therefore, for the author of the article - a popularizer of history, Avar Tsvetkov is not automatically a historian laughing

      Uncertainty prevails primarily in the question of the origin of the Self. In the chronicle of Fredegar - the main source for the history of the Samo Power - this man is named a native of the Sansky district of the Frankish kingdom. No less definite about the origin of Samo is the author of the anonymous Salzburg treatise, “The Conversion of the Bavars and the Quarantine,” which, however, calls him a Slav and a prince of quarantine Slavs (Horutan)

      The ambiguity disappears, if we assume that Samo was born on the territory of the Franks, but was ethnic Slavic.
      1. Hantengri 29 October 2019 19: 26 New
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        Quote: Operator
        The ambiguity disappears, if we assume that Samo was born on the territory of the Franks, but was ethnic Slavic.

        In science, the ambiguities do not disappear from "assuming." If you have suggested something, then for the disappearance of ambiguities, you, for starters, must first prove your proposition if it is scientifically sound.
      2. Hantengri 29 October 2019 19: 41 New
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        Quote: Operator
        the film "Viking" (the consultant to the film is the Jewish historian V. Pervukhin).

        Hm. It’s interesting why you have a consultant for shit-driving - Russian V. Pervukhin - a Jewish historian. Is a Jewish emigrant to the USA Klesov a Russian patriot?
        1. Operator 29 October 2019 20: 06 New
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          Pervukhin by origin is a Jew with the corresponding complexes.

          Klesov is Russian in origin, moreover, from the region (RF, Central Black Earth Region, Kursk Region, Klesovo Village), which is the geographical distribution center of the haplogroup R1a (specific share in the local population over 90%) on the Eurasian continent.
        2. 3x3zsave 29 October 2019 20: 11 New
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          Bravo, Igor !!!
  9. Operator 29 October 2019 09: 56 New
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    "began to develop the territory of modern East Germany and the coastal territory of the Baltic Sea," - a clear lie.

    Battle of the Tollensee River Valley in the 13 Century BC and modern excavations by German archaeologists unequivocally prove that the ancestors of the Slavs lived in Central Europe, starting from the Odra line and further east, initially from the time the glacier retreated - starting from the 9 of the millennium BC. (as figuratively expressed by German archaeologists "from magma").

    In the 6 century A.D. the Slavs in the Pannonian lowland temporarily fell under the power of the few nomadic Avars, but after 100 years they organized themselves into the first Slavic state of Samo, after which the Avars "disappeared like cliffs." As a result, the Central European Slavs - Lusatian sorbians and white Croats moved to the Byzantine province of Illyria (future Yugoslavia), joining the Vendians - Slovenes that had come there before.

    This article is a libel on the history of the Central European and southern Slavs.
    1. alebor 29 October 2019 10: 48 New
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      "The Battle of the Tollensee River Valley in the 13 Century BC" only proves that in the 13 century BC there was a battle near the Tollensee River. But what languages ​​the participants in that battle spoke no one knows.
      1. Operator 29 October 2019 11: 33 New
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        Quote: alebor
        what languages ​​did the participants speak

        There is no need to slow down: according to DNA analysis of bone remains in the battle in the Tollenze River valley, carriers of the haplogroup R1b took part on the western side, and R1a on the eastern side.
        1. Trilobite Master 29 October 2019 11: 57 New
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          Quote: Operator
          according to DNA analysis of bone remains in the battle in the Tollensee River valley, carriers of the haplogroup R1b took part on the western side and R1a on the eastern side.

          Analysis data in the studio.
          Who, where, when, what exactly analyzed, what are the results in numbers.
          According to Tatar historians, genetic studies have shown that there were Arabs on the right and Jews on the left.
    2. Trilobite Master 29 October 2019 11: 35 New
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      Quote: Operator
      ancestors of the Slavs

      Oh, we are making progress ... Not the "Slavs" themselves, but their "ancestors". Well, I’ll tell you a secret: the ancestors of the Slavs lived in the Stone Age, and even in the Mesozoic era swarmed somewhere. Small ones, hairy or scaly, on four legs. Regarding the achievements of German archaeologists, I would like to elaborate in more detail - on what, interestingly, the basis is based on your statement that in 9 000 - 8 000 g. e. in Europe in the specified area the ancestors of the Slavs crawled, and not, for example, the Balts or anyone else's.
      1. Doliva63 29 October 2019 16: 50 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Quote: Operator
        ancestors of the Slavs

        Oh, we are making progress ... Not the "Slavs" themselves, but their "ancestors". Well, I’ll tell you a secret: the ancestors of the Slavs lived in the Stone Age, and even in the Mesozoic era swarmed somewhere. Small ones, hairy or scaly, on four legs. Regarding the achievements of German archaeologists, I would like to elaborate in more detail - on what, interestingly, the basis is based on your statement that in 9 000 - 8 000 g. e. in Europe in the specified area the ancestors of the Slavs crawled, and not, for example, the Balts or anyone else's.

        Seeker let him find it. Feel free to engage in self-education.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  10. The comment was deleted.
    1. Trilobite Master 29 October 2019 12: 04 New
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      In what, it turns out that our full-time site-based Nazi does not support the theory of evolution ... Honestly, I did not even think that everything could be so interesting ... But what then? Creationism Or are you a descendant of aliens? Let’s, boldly, be interesting ...
    2. Edward Vashchenko 29 October 2019 15: 13 New
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      When there is nothing to object, then they turn to individuals and to insults.
      Great arguments!
  11. voyaka uh 29 October 2019 17: 08 New
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    Good article. good
    The dark 7th century has become a little clearer. fellow
  12. Force multiplier 29 October 2019 21: 11 New
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    "Often in the scientific literature there is an opinion about the beginning of the symbiosis of the Avars with the Slavs, that the Byzantine authors often confused one and the other, referring to the Slavs who are subordinate, the Avars."

    If we talk about scientific literature, then there is such a discipline - source study. And one of the basic principles of criticizing historical sources is that the closer the source is to the events that it describes, the more reliable it is.

    But no, Byzantine sources confused everything, but cabinet historians who compose national myths in the XNUMXthth centuries, thanks to their imagination, "figured out" so that they made conclusions directly opposite to what the Byzantine authors themselves said.

    Of course, there was no "symbiosis." Of course, no one "confused" anything. The term "Slavs" is not an ethnonym, but a designation of dependent tribes. Therefore, speaking of the "Slavs" as Avars, it was a question of Avar contingents recruited not from the Avars themselves, but from a population dependent on them.
    There is neither a "Slavic" race, nor a "Slavic" ethnic group, nor a "Slavic" haplogroup. And even the "Slavic" languages ​​created on the basis of the artificial Church Slavonic language are by and large not "Slavic"
    1. Edward Vashchenko 30 October 2019 13: 25 New
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      cabinet historians

      and understood non-cabinet rooms?
      and source science is not part of desk science?
      By the way ... hi
  13. Good_Anonymous 29 October 2019 23: 33 New
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    Soon there will be no Egyptians, no Sumerians, no Greeks with the Romans - there will be only solid Slavs. Everywhere.

    This is just some kind of holiday.
  14. Trilobite Master 30 October 2019 00: 22 New
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    Quote: 210ox
    Actually, they date back to the 7-8 century.

    I specifically do not follow the work in Gnezdovo. But a couple of years ago about the mounds of the 7th-8th centuries. there was no talk. Found something new?
    1. Edward Vashchenko 30 October 2019 21: 36 New
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      Michael,
      good evening,
      surprised himself
      leafed through the last anniversary collection on Gnezdovo: the question revolves around the IX century. I did not find the info below.
      1. Trilobite Master 31 October 2019 00: 15 New
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        Good evening.
        About IX century conversations, as if, have been going on for a long time, even Lebedev had about a gold coin from the time of Filofei in some Scandinavian burial ... But, as I understand it, even then the burial itself could not be reliably dated. And in any case, this is not the 7th-8th centuries.
        I think there is hardly anything in Gnezdovo that can be reliably dated at least the beginning of the 9th century. Slavic funerary equipment, as I understand it, is too poor for this, and then the Scandinavians there, most likely, simply weren’t there yet. Settled and in droves, of course.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 31 October 2019 08: 28 New
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          I agree with you!
  15. Bully 30 October 2019 13: 05 New
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    It would be interesting to read the correspondence between the author and historian Sergei Lesnoy, who wrote a collection of articles entitled “History in an undistorted form,” which provides a meticulous analysis of the official history of the Slavs of the Balkans, the Danube and the Black Sea (of course, with reference to the works of ancient and medieval historians).
    1. Edward Vashchenko 30 October 2019 13: 10 New
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      I do not know what to say. wink
  16. Operator 30 October 2019 13: 53 New
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    Quote: Bully
    with the historian Sergei Lesnoy, who wrote a collection of articles "History in an undistorted form"

    Sergey Lesnoy is the literary pseudonym of Doctor of Biological Sciences Sergei Yakovlevich Paramonov, who in 1941 was the director of the Zoological Museum of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences in Kiev, was deported to Germany during the German occupation and imprisoned in the Münden concentration camp, where he was emigrated from, after which he emigrated. to Australia, where until his death in 1967, he served as professor at Canberra National University

    Since the 1953 of the year S. Ya. Paramonov has published at his own expense a number of articles in Russian on the ancient history of the Slavs, which were then included in the author's monograph History of Russes in an undistorted form, as well as other articles published in small editions abroad.

    The monograph is available at https://e-libra.ru/read/397166-rus-otkuda-ty.html

    Other works of S.Ya. Paramonov:
    A word about Igor's Regiment. Study in four volumes. To the 150 anniversary of publication. (Paris, 1950-53)
    Devilry under the Bald Mountain (Paris, 1952)
    The history of "Russ" in an unverified form (Paris; Munich, 1953 — 60)
    Revision of the basics of the history of the Slavs (Melbourne, 1956)
    Who created the ancient Russia: Slavs or Germans? (Paris, 1960, Renaissance No. 108)
    Russia, where are you from? (Winnipeg, 1962; reprinted: Rostov n / a, 1995)
    Veles Book (Winnipeg, 1966; reprinted: Moscow, 2002)
    From the distant past of the Slavs (Melbourne, 1967)
    Collection of publications 1960 — 1967 (St. Petersburg, 2012 year)

    The historical works of S.Ya. Paramonov were hushed up in the USSR because of his emigrant position and numerous contradictions with official historical science, the basis of which was formed by historians of Jewish origin in order to belittle the contribution of the Russian people to the creation and development of their own state.

    Despite some anachronisms, the “History of the Russians in an undistorted form” correctly reflects the history of the Slavs, including Rus / Rus / Russian. In particular, S. Ya. Paramonov was the first to draw attention to the true statement of the purpose of inviting Prince of Rus Rurik to the elders of the Slovene tribe, designated in the PVL as: "Our land is large and plentiful, but there is no outfit in it" - i.e. ruler, not order, as presented by Soviet historians of Jewish origin.
  17. Sergey79 6 December 2019 07: 58 New
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    Of course the article is interesting. But the same questions always arise ... Why are such conclusions and conclusions made based on even historical sources? Which, as in that joke, and illegal and illogical ....