Slavs and Avars in the VI century

In the 50 years of the VI century. the Slavs, taking advantage of the fact that the main Byzantine forces were diverted to Italy, not only engaged in robbery in the northern provinces, but even captured the small town of Toper in Thrace (Rhodope province).


Slavs and Avars in the VI century

Reconstruction of the Avar horseman. Artist Gorelik M.V.


In addition to them, the borders of the empire in the north were threatened by German "kingdoms" and the Huns. The divide-and-rule imperial policy contributed to the weakening of these peoples, which the Byzantine diplomats pitted against each other.

Kuturgurs, a Hun tribe, along with the Slavs crossed the Danube on ice, passing through the provinces of Scythia and Moesia, in 558, headed by Khan Zabergan. Part of the troops with Zabergan moved to the capital, part to Greece, part tried to bypass the ground fortifications at Chersonesus of Thrace by sea on rafts.

But the Antes, who were in alliance with the empire from 554, tried to clash with the Kuturgurs and devastated the land of the sklavins, but, apparently, unsuccessfully, after them the Utiligurs of Sandilkha entered the battle.

Avars in Europe


At the end of the 50's, Avars appeared in the Black Sea steppes. The origin of the Avars can only be speculated. Like other nomadic peoples before and after them, on the way from the east, they underwent constant ethnic changes, including the vanquished and joined.

Avars, or mods of the Old Russian annals, were the Ural-Altai Turkic tribe. The Zhuzhans (Avars) dominated Northern China, the Mongolian steppes and Altai, subjugating the Hun tribes from East Turkestan, including the Turks themselves, the Ashin tribe.


Horseman 600-700 Statuette. China. British museum. London. England. Author photo


Hence the horror experienced by the Hunnic tribes of Eastern Europe upon learning of the invasion of the Avars in the European steppes. But military happiness in the steppes is changeable, and, as Protector Menander wrote, during the war with the Ashin Turks and the Chinese, the Juan Juan or Rurana (Avars) were defeated in the 551 and 554 years, the Turks left the subjugation of the Jujan Juan and created their first Khaganate . Most of the Avars were forced to resettle in China and Korea, and a smaller part of the scattered tribes that were part of the Avar Union moved to the West.

In 568, the ambassadors of the Turkic Kaganate arrived in Constantinople, who told Emperor Justin II details about the Avars. This story reached us in "Stories»Theophylact Simocatta. The tribes of Huar and Hunni, who were once part of the Avar Union, fled from the Turks to the west. As the ruler of the Turks boastfully declared:
“Avars are not birds, so that flying through the air they avoid the swords of the Turks; they are not fish to dive into the water and disappear into the depths of the deep sea; they wander on the surface of the earth. When I end the war with the Ephtalites, I will attack the Avars, and they will not escape my strength. ”



Foreigner VI century Statuette. China. Albert and Victoria Museum. London. England. Author photo


In the steppes of the Caucasus, they met the Hun tribes, who took them for an Avar, and rendered them corresponding honors. These tribes decided to take on the formidable name of the Avars. Such a transfer of names is found more than once in the history of nomadic tribes. They chose a ruler who received the title of kagan. Then they arrived at the Alans and thanks to them sent the first embassy to Constantinople, which arrived at the emperor Justinian in 558. Soon they were joined by the Tarniah and Kotzagir tribes who fled from the Turks in the number of 10 000 warriors. Altogether there were 20 of thousands of them; it was most likely about warriors, not counting women and children. In the middle of the VI century. this tribal union became an ally of Byzantium. The Avars, joining the warlike tribes of the steppes of Eastern Europe, destroyed and drove out the rebellious, so they ended up in the Carpathian region, the Subunavia and the Balkans. Here they intensify, waging ongoing wars with neighbors.

Attempts by the Byzantines to place them further away from the capital region in the province of Second Panonia were unsuccessful, the nomads of Khan Bayan tried to occupy land on the border of the provinces of Upper Moesia and Dacia.

Gepids were in alliance with the Sklaves. We know that the exiled candidate for the throne of the Lombards, Ildigis in 549 fled to the Sklaves, and then to the Gepids, for some time he fought with the Romans in Italy and had an army of Lombards, Gepids and Sklav, to the latter he eventually went to live.

The defeat of the gepids by the Lombards and their allies by the Avars and the withdrawal of the Lombards to Italy from the dangerous allies left one on one with the Avars. The latter conquered and subjugated all the "barbarians" in this region.

But if Justinian the Great conducted a conciliatory policy towards newcomers, endowing their endless embassies with gold, then the militant Justin II who came to power stopped this approach, thereby unleashing an endless war with the equestrian neighbors.

Troops-people.


What contributed to their military success?

Avars were a people-army. Despite the fact that they were at the same stage of development with their neighbors in Eastern Europe, their military-technological advantage provided them with dominance over them. Avars are a people-army, united by a common struggle, first with the Turks, and then with other nomadic peoples on their way to Europe. The unconditional autocratic power of the khakan or kagan ensured firm and unquestioning discipline in this ethnic entity, in contrast, for example, from their tributaries, Slavs, who did not have tight control. Although they had the advice of the elders and the nobility, sometimes protesting the kagan.

All of them were magnificent riders: archaeological material suggests that regardless of social status, all nomads had iron stirrups and a bit, which helped to use the impact power of long spears. Protecting their horses with “armor” made of felt provided them with superiority over other competitor riders.


Avar VI century. Reconstruction of the author based on archaeological data


The presence of the stirrups that they brought to Europe helped the riders alternately use either a bow or a spear, fastened with a belt behind his back.

The low level of material culture also contributed to the desire to win and to possess wealth, the Avars who arrived in Europe did not even have metal plates on their belts and jigs, but used a horn. Out of the horn was their laminar armor (zaba).

A retrospective method shows that members of the dominant tribe, the tribe of conquerors, did not engage in physical labor, slaves and dependent nomads watched the cattle, slaves and women did the housework. "Leisure" made it possible for riders to constantly maintain "form" through training and hunting. All this made the Avar horseman dashing and fearless rider with Spartan discipline and education. “The Avars,” wrote Mauritius Stratig, “are extremely vicious, dodgy, and very experienced in wars."


Avar Rider. VI century. Reconstruction of the author based on the description of Mauritius Stratig


To ensure long transitions in the war, the Avars drove a huge number of cattle with them, which increased their maneuverability. And there is no contradiction here. Large flocks or herds burden the movement of the horse army, but in the steppe, where it is extremely difficult to get food, the nomad riders needed such help to reach the territory where they could be fed. Moreover, speed with this movement is not required.

Unlike other nomads, they fought in formation rather than lava, located in separate units or measures (moira), as their construction was determined by Mauritius Stratig in the Byzantine manner. Separate detachments were created on the basis of individual clans or tribes, which contributed to the cohesion of the detachment. The Avars were the first to throw subordinate peoples into the battle, be it the Huns, Slavs, or Germans. They put their tributaries of the Slavs, called befulci, in front of the camp and forced to fight, if the victory was on the side of the Slavs, they proceeded to beat the losers and robbed their camp, if not, they forced the Slavs to fight more actively. In the battle for Constantinople, the Slavs escaped from the Romans, believing that they were probably traitors, the Avars simply killed. Kagan Bayan sent tributaries of the Kuturgurs in the amount of ten thousand horsemen to ruin Dalmatia.

When the Avars themselves entered the battle, they led him to the complete defeat of all the forces of the opponents, not content with just breaking the first line. It is worth adding the psychological factor of warfare - the appearance of the nomads of the Avars hit opponents, although there was no difference in clothing.

Avar yoke


The first Slavic tribes that fell into submission to the Avars after the Huns were Slavs. Structurally, the relationship between the Avars and Slavs was built in different ways. Somewhere Slavs and Avars lived together, somewhere Slavic tributaries were ruled by their leaders.

The conquerors subjected the Slavs to all violence, it was a real Avar yoke. Legendary news of the Russian annals says: when a noble arr (accident) was about to go somewhere, he harnessed three or four Slavic women to the cart. Fredegest writes that every year the Avars went to winter in the places of resettlement of the Slavs, they took wives and daughters of the Slavs and used them, and at the end of the wintering the Slavs had to pay tribute to them. When in 592, during the siege of Sirmia, the kagan ordered the Slavs to build single-wood boats for the crossing, they worked at all costs under pain of punishment. In the war, the Avars set ahead, as we wrote above, the army of the Slavs and forced them to fight.


Avars and Slav. Painter Angus McBride. Ed. Osprey


And what was the relationship between Avars and Ants?

Avars and Ants


At the same time, the Avars were unable to conquer the Ants. The Ants were numerous tribes, and their material level and military knowledge were at a fairly high level, so dealing with them was not so simple.

In the 50 years, the Avars strengthened their power by fighting the Utigurs and Kuturgurs (Kutriguts), Gepids, and in alliance with the Lombards, they carried out extermination campaigns against the Ants, possibly passing all their lands to the Dniester. In 560, the Ants sent an embassy led by Mezamer or Mezimir (Μεζαμηρος), the son of one of the Antian princes or leaders of Idariz, brother of Kelagast, in order to redeem prisoners and talk about peace. The translator of the Avar Hagan, Kutrigur, experiencing a personal dislike of the Slavs, interpreted the arrogant speeches of the ambassadors as a threat to the war, and the Avars, neglecting the customs, killed the ambassadors, starting a new campaign against the Antes.

A little later, Khan Bayan sent to another Ant leader, Dobrat (Δαυρέντιος), or Davrit (Δαυρίτας), an embassy demanding humility and paying tributes. Davrit and the other Ants leaders arrogantly answered the ambassadors:
“Was he born among people and warmed by the rays of the sun the one who subordinates our strength? For we are accustomed to dominate the alien (land), and not others of ours. And this is unshakable for us as long as wars and swords exist. ”


This belligerent response was perfectly in the tradition of the time. A quarrel arose between the leaders of the Ants and the ambassadors, the ambassadors were killed. As a result, a war began, which most likely went with varying success, because Menander Protector informs us that the kagan (khan) Bayan suffered a lot from the Slavs. What did not stop their ambassadors in 565 from boasting in Constantinople that they had pacified the barbarians and that they did not attack Thrace.


Avar swords:
1. Sword. Coonagot. VI - beg. VII centuries
2. Sword. Kunbabon. VI - beg. VII centuries
3. Sword. Segvar-Shopoldon. VI - beg. VII centuries
4. Sword. Kelked-Feketekapu. VI - beg. VII centuries
5. Sheath. Hungarian National Museum. VI - beg. VII centuries


Kagan tried to win back the situation with the Ants in 577, when a huge army of Slavs out of a hundred thousand warriors, taking advantage of the war of the Roman Empire in the east, crossed the Danube and devastated Thrace, Macedonia and Thessaly.

The Slavs plundered the whole territory, devastated Thrace and captured the herds of royal horses, gold and silver.

Given the named number, it must be assumed that the entire capable male population went on a campaign, which the empire simply had no strength to withstand. The Romans turned to Khan Bayan, and he, having received gifts, decided to take advantage of the situation. The Avar army consisted of horsemen (Ιππέων), Menander indicates the number in 60 thousand (which causes great doubt). At first, the Byzantines crossed the Danube in the area of ​​present-day Sremska Mitrovica, the soldiers crossed on foot through Illyria and were again transported by Romance ships across the Danube in the area of ​​Grotsk.

Kagan began to rob the defenseless population, since it was believed that the Slavs, who had long fought with Byzantium, accumulated huge wealth. Most likely, after these events, the antes become tributary dependent on the kaganate for some time.

Nevertheless, the difficulties with the crossing enabled the Ants to provide effective resistance, for example, in 580 the Avar ambassadors demanded that they be allowed to make a permanent crossing at Sirmia (Sremska Mitrovica, Serbia) in order to be able to collect the promised tribute from the Slavs, but the emperor Tiberius did not allowed, realizing that, having no military power in the Balkans, Byzantium, if there is a bridge over the Sava River, will also become the prey of nomads.

By the way, on the way back, the ambassadors were killed by the Slavs.

Slavs on the borders of the empire at the end of the VI century


But already in 581, the Slavs invaded Illyrik and Thrace, and two years later, under pressure from the nomads, they not only raided Byzantium, but moved to its borders, the first settlers settled in Macedonia and Thessaly, and even Greece, what outraged John of Ephesus who informed him.

At the same time, the military activity of the Avars on the borders of the empire is growing, their tributaries of the Slavs go on a campaign both independently and by order of the kagan. There is no doubt that many Sklavin tribes came under the supreme authority of the Avars. During the siege of Sirmia (Sremska-Mitrovica) and Singidon (Belgrade), the Slavs built odnodrevki boats to ferry the khan’s troops, they hurried up, afraid of anger, most of the infantry besieging these cities were also Slavs.

In 585, there was an invasion of the Slavs, or Ants, who reached the Long Walls, that is, almost under Constantinople.

They were opposed by the scribon Comenziol, a warrior from the squadron-scribonaria squadron. It was his debut as a military leader, he won the river Ergin (Ergen, the left tributary of the Maritsa). Having received the position of a present or master of millilitum presentis (commander of the entire expeditionary army), he waged an even more decisive battle with the Slavic invasions. In the vicinity of Adrianople, he met with the army of the Slavic prince Ardagast. Who is Ardagast, little is known, perhaps his name comes from the Slavic god Radegast. The following year, Comenziol himself went on a campaign against the Slavs, but it is not known how it ended, because at the same time the Avar invasion of Thrace began.

In 586, the kagan, together with the sklavins, set out on a campaign to Constantinople, the Romans called for help from the Antes, who devastated the lands of the sklavins.

In 593, the stratilates of the East of Priscus opposed the Slavs living on the Danube. Events took place in the area of ​​the modern river Ialovica, the left tributary of the Danube (Romania). The army crossed near Dorostol (Silistr, Bulgaria), and in the battle the soldiers defeat the Slavic leader Ardagast.

Prisc sent big booty to the capital, but a detachment of Slavs attacked him. The Slavs switched to guerrilla tactics and constantly counterattacked, those who were captured were courageous, tortured. As Feofilakt Simokatta writes, “the barbarians, having fallen into near-death madness, seemed to rejoice in torment, as if someone else's body was suffering from scourges.” But to the aid of the Romans came a deserter-gepid, who lived in Slavic land. He proposed to deceive another "ricks" of the Slavs, Musokiy (Μουσοκιος). According to the sign of hepatitis, the Romans attacked the drunken soldiers of Musokia at night.

We see that various Slavic tribes participate in the attacks on Byzantium, led by leaders such as Musoky or Ardagast (Piragast), sometimes they raid together, often on their own.

The winners also made a feast and were again attacked by the Slavs, barely repelled their attack. On the way back, the crossing of the Danube, Prisca was blocked by the Khan Avar, who, looking for a cause for a clash, accused the Romans of assaulting his subjects and ordered large hordes of Slavs to cross the Danube. Most likely, we are not talking about the fact that the Slavs of Musoky or Ardagast obeyed the Avars, but the desire of the Hagan to consider all Slavs as their subjects, especially since it was a good reason to profit. Priscus gave him five thousand captured Slavs, and under such conditions he returned to the capital.

But the fighting did not stop, the Slavs were such a serious threat that the Emperor of Mauritius, contrary to custom, to withdraw the army to the "winter apartments" began to keep it on the border within the "barbarians". He wanted to force the armies on the Danube to live on self-sufficiency, while he reduced the salaries of soldiers. He appointed his brother Peter, the commander in Odysse (Varna, Bulgaria), who led the fight against variable success. The Slavs ravaged the capital of Lower Moesia, Markianopol (Devnya village, Bulgaria), but on the way back they were attacked by Peter, while his trip beyond the Danube was unsuccessful. Prisk, who replaced him, went on a campaign against the Slavs in 598, but was forced to conduct military operations against the Avars who besieged Singidon (Belgrade) and plundered Dalmatia. The empire tried in some way, by force or gifts, to reconcile the Slavs, since the Avar Khaganate became its main opponent here. The fight against them was the main business of the state.

After the battle with the Avars at the mouth of the Yantra River, the right tributary of the Danube, in April 598, which was extremely unsuccessful for the Romans, a peace treaty was concluded between the Hagan and Byzantium in the city of Drieper (Karishtyran) in Thrace, the parties to the agreement confirmed that the border between them was Danube, but the treaty allowed the Romans to pass the Danube against the Slavs. Obviously, not all Slavic tribes fell into tributary dependence on the Avars.

But when the Bavars came out against the Alpine Slavs living in the upper reaches of the Drava River, the kagan defended tributaries and completely defeated the enemy.

And in 592, the Avars asked the Byzantines to help them cross the Danube in order to punish the Slavs, most likely the Ants, who refused to pay tribute.

Meanwhile, Vasilevs Mauritius, who did not even pay the ransom for full (the kagan executed 12 thousand prisoners), refused to pay tribute to the Avars, tore off the contract and sent the army on a campaign on the kagan, this campaign was sent to the heart of a nomadic state, the middle reaches of the Danube in Pannonia .

For almost fifty years of the VI century, the Avars strengthened their power over the territories of the Danube, destroying some peoples, subjugating and making tributaries of others. Some Slavs came under their dominance, some were tributaries, and another part fought with them with varying success. In an ever-changing political environment, yesterday’s enemies became allies, and vice versa.

But was there a symbiosis of Avars with the Slavs? I think that it is necessary to say here: no. The exchange existed, the influence of fashion or weapons - yes, but there is no need to talk about symbiosis. This situation can be described as coexistence, where the key element of interaction was the “tormenting” by the Avars of the Slavs who fell under their heels, as well as representatives of other ethnic groups, less numerous than the Slavs.

Arrogance and ethno-chauvinism are characteristic of ethnic groups, which are key in such formations as Kaganate Avar. A view of the world through the prism of simple social concepts: ruler, slave and enemy. At the same time, the slave did not have the shade that under classical slavery, under this term were all dependent: from prisoners to tributaries. The peak of power of such associations at the same time becomes the moment of sunset. This happened with the Avars. About this - in the sequel.

Продолжение следует ...

Sources and literature:
Brzóstkowska A., Swoboda W. Testimonia najdawniejszych dziejów Słowian.— Seria grecka, Zeszyt 2.— Wrocław, 1989.
Chronicarum quae dicuntur Fredegarii Scholastici. Monumenta Germaniae Historica: Scriptores rerum Merovingicarum, Volume 2. Hannover. 1888.
Corippe. Éloge de l'empereur Justin II. Paris 2002.
Agathius of Maryne. On the reign of Justinian / Translation M.V. Levchenko M., 1996.
Chapters from the “Church History” of John of Ephesus / Translation by N.V. Pigulevskaya // Pigulevskaya N.V. Syrian medieval historiography. Research and translations. Compiled by Meshcherskaya E.N. St. Petersburg., 2011.
From the “History” of Menander Protector Translated by I.A. Levinskaya, S.R. Tokhtosieva // Codex of the oldest written news about the Slavs. T.I. M., 1994.
John of Biclar. Chronicle Translation by A. B. Chernyak // Codex of the oldest written news about the Slavs. T.I. M., 1994.
John Malala. Chronography // Procopius of Caesarea War with the Persians. War with the Vandals. Secret story. Per., Article, comment. A.A. Chekalova. St. Petersburg., 1998.
Pigulevskaya N.V. Syrian medieval historiography. Research and translations. Compiled by Meshcherskaya E.N. St. Petersburg., 2011.
Mauritius Strategicon / Translation and commentary by V.V. Kuchma. St. Petersburg., 2003.
Theophylact Simocatta History. Translation by S.P. Kondratiev. M., 1996.
Daima F. History and Archeology Avar. // MAIET. Simferopol. 2002.
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  1. kalibr 9 September 2019 09: 28 New
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    Very good stuff, Edward! Taking off my hat! And I really liked this: Avar. VI century. Reconstruction of the author based on archaeological data
    1. Edward Vashchenko 9 September 2019 10: 15 New
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      Thanks Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      1. Vend 4 October 2019 10: 01 New
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        I don’t remember which chronograph it was indicated that the kagan, during the siege of the city, was angry with the Slavs and killed many of them. In response, the Slavs turned the camp and left. Kagan eventually had to lift the siege. Not quite like tributaries, more like action by allies. However, there is mention of the attitude of the Avars to the Dulebs. Probably some tribes were Danics, others allies.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 4 October 2019 10: 39 New
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          Quite right, I wrote about these events in a new article dedicated to the 7th century, I will soon post it.
  2. Operator 9 September 2019 10: 54 New
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    Another Russophobic article: "Slavs, Antov leaders arrogantly answered [and], etc., etc."

    In reality, the Avars in Europe could only conquer the steppe territory of the Balaton Lowland (the Roman province of Pannonia), as a result of which they were completely surrounded by Slavs and Germans - Serbs and Croats in the south (mountainous terrain of the future Yugoslavia), Ants in the east (mountainous region of Thrace) , Czechs and Moravians in the north (highlands of the Sudetenland) and Germans in the west (foothills of the Alps).

    There were no interactions between the Avars and the Eastern Ants living in the Dnieper, with the exception of the regular raids of the Eastern Slavs on the territory of Byzantium, including its province of Pannonia.

    At the same time, the Slavs and Germans snapped the nose of the "great and terrible" Avars each time, when they tried to expand the controlled territory.

    After several decades of independent existence, the Avars, according to the Russian annals of "the destruction of aki obre" - i.e. without a trace were slaughtered by the Central European Slavs from the first Slavic state of Samo.

    Jewish "historians" need a shred at least of the Obra wool to try to pour mud on the Slavs.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 September 2019 12: 02 New
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      . Jewish "historians" need a shred at least of the Obra wool to try to pour mud on the Slavs.

      That's the news - Eduard Vashchenko - Avrey and a pseudo-historian! Vyacheslav Olegovich arrived in your regiment !!! Now we have two Avrei pseudohistics with academic ranks and scientific regalia !!! good
      As they say - God loves a trinity! Guys take me hamayuna third! I do not have a scientific degree, but 17 years of work in a university, mustache, paws and tail are available !!! crying
      Now seriously! Andrey, with all due respect to you, you go too far - especially with the “Jewish history of our Fatherland”! Although before it - the story began a few centuries !!!
      Edward in this work, showed a remarkable one, trying not to step on the tail of the forum users "neopagans and adherents of DNA!" Alas, they still found a reason - to “bite”!
      Therefore, I throw only one thesis - Mother Russia originates from the moment of capture of Kiev by ruler Oleg !!! Not even with Rurik’s calling !!! So if my hypothetical ancestor was tormented by Obra, then in the second part of the article Edward will write what it cost them !!!
      Sincerely, Guys, let's respect each other .....
      1. Operator 9 September 2019 12: 51 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        my hypothetical ancestor tormented Obra

        Do not play clowns - the Avars (like the Huns before them and the Ugrians after them) proceeded in transit through the Black Sea steppes to the natural reservation of the nomads (the Balaton Lowland), where they were almost completely destroyed by the Slavs surrounding them.

        If there was an Avar yoke, then not for long (~ 50 years) and only for white Croats - residents of the Balaton Lowland.

        Was your ancestor originally from a white Croat? laughing
      2. joker 10 September 2019 07: 00 New
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        Kote Pan Kokhanka (Vladislav), you say that Russia began when Prince Oleg came to Kiev.
        But nothing that the leader Avarov was called BAYAN?
        Boyan - an old Russian singer and storyteller, "songwriter", the character of "Words about Igor's Regiment".
        one and the same person is called either Boyan or Bayan - it is well known among all Slavs: Russians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Poles, Czechs. It comes from the old Slavonic “ba [jon] ty”, which meant, on the one hand: “to twist”, “to speak”, and on the other - “to fabulous.”
        Any judge, investigator, opera, scout, etc. will tell you - the liar pierces the little things
        Conclusion: the assertion that Khan Bayan is a Turk, and not a Slav - FALSE!
        1. Trilobite Master 10 September 2019 09: 32 New
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          Quote: joker
          Any judge, investigator, opera, scout, etc. will tell you - the liar pierces the little things

          True, most often on the little things. But in order to "pierce" someone in this way, the aforementioned characters with these trifles must themselves be better acquainted than the one whom they expose. And with this, many "whistleblowers" have big problems.
          Your brilliant conclusion that a certain person who died one and a half millennia ago was a Slav, made only on the basis of his name and contrary to other sources, clearly indicates that you are not only unfamiliar with these "trifles", but not even trying to get acquainted with the subject. The external phonetic similarity of the Old Slavic root and the name of a certain leader in its current reading (and as contemporaries called it, we can only guess, maybe Bakan, Bakhan, Baan or Baia-An) has revealed the "truth" to you and you don’t need anything else. Why read or study something - it’s all so clear.
          When reading comments like yours, I usually have the thought: “How much it takes to be both an ignorant and self-confident person, so that, like going to invade areas that you know only from coloring books and express your opinion about them in such a categorical and rude form? " request
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 10 September 2019 12: 16 New
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          . Any judge, investigator, opera, scout, etc. will tell you - the liar pierces the little things
          Conclusion: the assertion that Khan Bayan is a Turk, and not a Slav - FALSE!

          For courage and peremptory I put you a plus !!! Otherwise ......? An example from the story!
          Three-quarters of a century ago, some very exceptional Europeans found the tooth of their ancestor! And only based on this they proved their exclusivity! As you guessed, they were representatives of the Third Reich !!! The sadness turned out to be that the tooth of the ancestor of the Nordic Aryans turned out to be the tooth of a prehistoric swamp or water pig (memory fails)! But the main thing is another, how everything has grown together - straight according to Freud!
          But what about Bayan !!!? Everything is trite here - the Avar Bayan warmed up the ancient Slavs so that he still associates with Pushkin with the “golden chain”, you’re forgiven forcibly! And given the approaches of the Avars to military affairs - when the Slavs were allowed to go ahead, then "captivity was still so funny!" Anto I'm like a button accordion !!! laughing
        3. aybolyt678 17 September 2019 07: 16 New
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          Quote: joker
          Boyan - an old Russian singer and storyteller,

          And Stalin is a young Georgian poet, while he is the Russian leader of the Soviet people
    2. Trilobite Master 9 September 2019 19: 42 New
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      Quote: Operator
      Another Russophobic article

      Give someone already to the Phenazepam Operator, or something ... It hurts to watch how a person is tormented, tormented by the heavy delusions of persecution.
      That nonsense that you, the Operator, wrote today, and what sin it is, you write systematically, it makes no sense to comment and refute, because it does not contain a single rational grain. You are probably an adult constantly likening yourself here to some kind of evil clown whom you seem to laugh at (the stupid things you’re broadcast are sometimes even funny), but when you realize that all this is written seriously, the laugh somehow disappears .
      You really need to consult a specialist in the field of psychiatry, undergo some tests, I am convinced that they will reveal certain thinking disorders in you. I'm quite serious right now.
      There are people who write or say nonsense because their cultural and intellectual level does not allow them to understand more or less complex issues, in their case it is not a mental disorder, but simply the general level of development. However, this is not your case - you are a person who is certainly educated and sufficiently developed. Such distortions in your thought process can be explained only by a certain pathology, and developing one. Having the ability to read your messages for a sufficiently long period, I can confidently say that the degree of aggressiveness and categoricalness of your judgments is steadily growing, and the level of their argumentation is also steadily falling.
      Think about it yourself, consult with loved ones. If you come to the right conclusions, then after a while, having passed the appropriate examinations and course of treatment, you and your loved ones will thank me.
      1. 3x3zsave 9 September 2019 20: 49 New
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        Hello Michael!
        Have you ever had the idea that our unconditional antagonist plays a role, to himself, once conditioned? Read his articles-smart person and specialist.
        1. Trilobite Master 9 September 2019 22: 53 New
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          Good evening, Anton.
          “A specialist is like a flux - the fuller it is, the one-sided” (c) Kozma Prutkov, if I am not mistaken.
          I have not read the articles of the Operator, because their topic is not interesting to me. I fully admit that in some areas he may be a qualified specialist. The difference between us is that I can recognize myself as incompetent in certain issues and either disregard my opinion in the discussion at all, or, express it carefully, in the form of questions or statements with reservations “I think”, “it seems to me”, etc. .P.
          And our Operator is right always and in everything. If there is a person who understands history better than him, then this, of course, is Klyosov and only Klyosov, all the rest are not taken into account. And who does not agree with the fact that the Operator proclaimed the truth - a Jew and a Russophobe, and personally I am a Tatar. smile
          On the one hand it’s funny, but on the other it’s sad.
          1. Pancher88 23 November 2019 03: 49 New
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            I see the patient regresses)))
        2. Pancher88 23 November 2019 03: 52 New
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          The operator is a techie. And like any techie, he is a narrow specialist. Of course, he knows a lot in his subject, but outside of it he is a complete ignoramus and dilettante)))
          Man believes in klesov ...
      2. Pancher88 23 November 2019 03: 53 New
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        If the operator is bombed by an article, then the article is good. Such a sign)))
    3. Hantengri 9 September 2019 23: 00 New
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      Quote: Operator
      Jewish "historians" need a clump of at least Obra wool to try to pour mud on the Slavs

      Bravo, Andrey, bravo! With mischievous Jewish historians, spoiling (from the natural meanness of the national soul, harshly) Russian history you figured out 5 ++! But, after all, history is not the only Russian science that can be spoiled! Turn your vigilance to physics. On all of these Ioffe, Zeldovichi, Kikoin, Budker, Landaushitsov ... That's where the goblet is! Only Landaushitsa managed to write as many as 10 volumes of The Course of Theoretical Physics. Can you imagine how many kosher larvae put these reptiles into the gentle heads of unsuspecting RUSSIAN students ?! Do not pass by, Andrey! Heil Klesov! wassat
      1. Pancher88 23 November 2019 03: 48 New
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        I look, his disease is progressing))))
    4. nikon7717 13 September 2019 01: 07 New
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      Why Russophobian? In the article, the author constantly cites facts on the settlement of the Slavs of central Europe. These are the northern borders of modern Italy, Bavaria, Bulgaria, Moravia, all along the Danube, the west of the Black Sea. Cool! He simply confirmed that before the arrival of Rurik all over the way from the Vikings the Greeks in the South already had many Slavs. AND! This was the main population. The Slavs fought in the forefront, i.e. these are the biggest losses, i.e. there were really more of them! than avars. Otherwise, it is impossible to replenish the army.
      How did you communicate? It seems in one language or how. We did not retrain all the Slavs;))
      1. Operator 13 September 2019 14: 12 New
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        The author stupidly calls the Slavs the scornful nickname of "slavs" (slaves distorted from self-designation by the "Slavs"), which was used by their opponents Germans and Byzantines.

        In addition, the author ignores the fact that the Avars during the 50 years after their invasion of central Europe were driven by the Slavs - residents of the Samo state into the historical reservation of all nomads - into the Pannonian Basin (the valley of Lake Balaton) with a steppe topography, surrounded on all sides by mountains, from where they could only occasionally raid the Byzantines, Slavs and Germans. After 200 years, the Avars were almost completely polished as a result of the joint actions of the neighboring Slavs and Germans.

        Before the Avars, the Huns were driven into the Pannonian Basin; after the Avars, the Ugrians. The only nomads who managed to avoid this reservation are the Bulgars who had the intelligence to abandon their culture and assimilate with the Ants on the territory of Thrace (future Bulgaria).
        1. Pancher88 23 November 2019 03: 45 New
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          When you call the Slavs Slavs, you also call them slaves. "Slave" is a slave in many European languages.
      2. Pancher88 23 November 2019 03: 47 New
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        Well this is the "operator", and he is always bombed by nomads))) Do not pay attention to him.
    5. Pancher88 23 November 2019 03: 55 New
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      Glad you didn’t like the article. This means that the article is good and professional.
  3. dzvero 9 September 2019 11: 34 New
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    Dark Ages ... a sword world without magic ...
    By the way, the number of troops of that period was always surprising - 10000, 20000, 50000, 100000 ... How real are these numbers against the background of the population of that time? And how did they manage such forces in the absence of infrastructure / communications?
    1. Edward Vashchenko 9 September 2019 12: 24 New
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      By the way, the number of troops of that period was always surprising - 10000, 20000, 50000, 100000 ...

      It seems to me that this is often an exaggeration.
      The real army is “expeditionary” - 20-30 thousand, here about Avars - 20 thousand horsemen.
      For the VI century. for sure
    2. voyaka uh 9 September 2019 15: 53 New
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      "and how to manage such forces in the absence of infrastructure / communications?" ////
      -----
      1) messengers.
      2) signal fires: black smoke meant one thing, white smoke meant another. Only fire is the third.
      1. kalibr 9 September 2019 17: 51 New
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        The Greeks even had the first telegraph. Water...
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 September 2019 19: 34 New
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        The control system of military units of the early Middle Ages is a topic of a separate work that is still waiting for its researcher.
        If with regards to the steppe peoples (nomads), the culmination of their military skills should be considered the era of Genghis Khan and his heirs!
        With regards to the Avar army, the Byzantines directly mention that they acted in service, had heavy cavalry and infantry. Moreover, they qualitatively surpassed our ancestors in military organization, equipment and tactics, since it is not sad, many Slavic tribes left black memories of Obra! But based on the studies of philologists, the military source terms (helmet, sword) are of Germanic origin, there are no Avar borrowings in our native language! Even from the Huns we got - honey and a bear !!! Why? Perhaps Andrei is right that there are no descendants of white Croats among us, but maybe the thing is different.
        What descendants are there! Let us plunge into the history of the Avar Kaganate finally collapsed under the blows of the Ugrians, after them Great Moravia disappears from the world map. And suddenly the flowering of Kievan Rus begins! Just a decade ago, the author of the Tale of Bygone Years extended the reign of Oleg the Prophetic and the reign of Igor the Old! Moreover, a number of venerable scientists (naturally, in the view of Andrei “Jewish pseudo-scientists”) put forward versions that Oleg, Igor and Olga were at least a few at the Kiev table, even assigned numbers to them. Then, starting with the death of Igor and the beginning of Olga’s reign, a sharp cultural, economic and military take-off of the Ancient Russian State begins !!! Why would you? Perhaps one of the versions is the migration process from the dying Great Moravia and other West Slavic lands infringed by German secular and church princes!
        Now about the signals!
        1. Messengers and walkers!
        2. Flags, pennants and badges!
        3. Pipes, horns, drums and gong!
        4. Smokes!
        5. Archery with smoke arrows during the day, lit at night!
        Well, the last description of the battles with the participation of the Avars, irreplaceably describes that summer residents always came ahead of them. Avar wars intervened when the former achieved success!
        Regards, Vlad!
    3. alexey alexeyev_2 27 September 2019 08: 47 New
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      And why are you surprised .. Most of the historians are not friends with their heads ... And all the objections of experts are perceived by them as a personal insult ... That is the million-strong hordes of nomadic horses ..there are giant fleets of the ancient world .. Treat them like patients. .as I ... with pity and patience..What a child ...
  4. Engineer 9 September 2019 12: 35 New
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    Oh, these professional historians)). Well, they don’t feel the drama of the events. As a pathologist, he no longer feels the tragedy of death. From the endless plains of Asia, a flock of white sharks came to us under the name Avars. And Edward talks about this with a slightly adapted academic language.
    There are many complaints about the article. This and balance - quotes of specialists disappeared - accusations of Russophobia immediately went (and still will be). Not a word about the alien revolution in European military affairs. And this is not only stirrups. Not a word about the final defeat of the Ants by the Avars.
    I do not want to write footcloths yet. I will throw in the style of aspect-description throughout the day.
    Of course, there are pluses too.
    In the author’s drawing of an avar, the “hero” has an artificially deformed skull. Unfortunately, the author did not dwell on this interesting feature that the nomads carried through the centuries. Alas, I can’t find a photo from the museum in Budapest. After viewing the exposition there, I got the impression that the Avars did not stretch the skull "up" as in the author's drawing, but into the "depth".
    I will analyze the reconstruction of the faces separately. I’ll tell you my opinion right away. The rider's helmet is definitely not. McBride’s horse generally has some Goiko Mitich. Although Angus is cool without question, but with such a decent society does not let go)
    But for the article, of course, thanks to the author.
    1. Edward Vashchenko 9 September 2019 13: 45 New
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      Denis,
      good afternoon, and don’t say:
      Oh, these professional historians)).

      "It was a hot May night, all the sentries fell asleep and ... only the Avars sneaked along the shore .."
      Immediately do not answer:
      accusations of Russophobia immediately went (and will certainly be).

      as without them laughing
      Not a word about the final defeat of the Ants by the Avars.

      So, "To be continued ... this is 602 year)
      I agree one hundred percent with Goiko Mitech, but somehow it was necessary to dilute the text with a picture.
      According to the helmet, I already laid it out - from the Cologne Archaeological Museum, the Avars had not only plate helmets, or rather, how many they, like from Niederstotzingen, are textured of course.
      Here it is: the steppes of the Black Sea 6 century

      Well, about the Avar - as the local has enough to write about everything - all the same, the topic is about Slavs and Avars, and not vice versa, but
      accusations of Russophobia
      ready.
      About skulls - the same thing, I also don’t remember about the museum of Budapest. In the evening I’ll get to the archive - I’ll lay out compressed skulls from the Kerch Archaeological - the beginning of our era - the Sarmatians.
      Sincerely.
      1. Engineer 9 September 2019 14: 13 New
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        Greetings, Edward.
        Holivar about helmets, let's put it off for the evening. Then I will post beautiful pictures for a wide audience of the site.
        Again and again I see how academism plays a dirty trick with professional historians. They often boil in their own juice without adapting to the current audience. I would at the very beginning point out why the Avars are important for understanding our history: the death of the Ants, the incredible tragedy of the situation with the rest. Well, from the positive, the formation of the first pre-state association of the Slavs in the fight against aliens, the "power of Samo." These are all key points in our history.
        Well, the epigraph teaser begs this:
        The first envoy of this people was chosen by someone named Kandih. Presenting himself to the emperor’s eyes, he said: “The greatest and strongest of the nations comes to you; the Avar tribe is irresistible; it can easily repulse and exterminate opponents. Therefore, it will be useful for you to accept the Avars as allies and acquire excellent defenders in them, but they only then will they be in friendly relations with the Roman power if they receive precious gifts and money from you annually and are settled by you on fruitful land. "
        Interesting, lively and 100% historical
        Sincerely.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 9 September 2019 16: 13 New
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          Denis,
          thank you
          a good start, but the epigraph teaser is already being used up and down.
          As some excuse: my article is not entirely about Avar, so such accents.
          I have a detailed article, as I see it myself, about Avar weapons for the VI century, but I will not post it.
          So far I have a different topic. You are right that clarity is lacking because of the “academic nature”: the Avars were not so powerful when they came to the steppes In Europe, their “power” was formed only here, including in the fight against the Slavs. But this struggle was with varying success.
          Something like this.
    2. Hantengri 10 September 2019 23: 11 New
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      Quote: Engineer
      McBride’s horse generally has some Goiko Mitich.

      In my opinion, based on the phenotype of the characters, the creation of Mack Bride, in general, should be worded: "Horse Apache and two Armenian foot soldiers.".)))
  5. kalibr 9 September 2019 13: 34 New
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    [quote = Operator] Jewish "historians" need a clump of at least Obra wool in order to try to pour mud on the Slavs.

    You will continue to write this way - you will earn a ban for the remaining time. That’s exactly what I’m sure of, so that’s it!
  6. fuxila 9 September 2019 15: 02 New
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    Once again I will make a comment to the author that the articles after writing still need to be read, otherwise it turns out that "the Slavs ravaged the capital of Lower Moesia, Markianopol ...".
    The Roman military commander was not called Priisk, but Prisk (Greek Πρίσκο,), the Slavic prince was apparently called Radigost. Such names were widespread before the adoption of Christianity: Compassion, Stanigost, Voigost, etc. Theophylact Simocatta, describing these events, gave the Slavic names a Germanic form, because dealt with Goths and Gepids who lived in the empire, who had Armogast, Kunigast, etc., whose second part of the name, like the Slavs, means “guest”.
    Ardagast (Piragast) is not one person, but two princes who led various associations, while Pirogost died in battle, and the wounded Radigost managed to escape.
    1. Edward Vashchenko 9 September 2019 15: 58 New
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      Alex,
      Thanks for noticing typos. I’ll fix the city. Prisk - Mining - an annoying lack of confusion, the eye is blurred.
      The names of the Slavic princes are written in the tradition of translations of S.P. Kondratiev, I.A. Levinskaya, S.R. Tokhtosieva.
      I would be grateful if you give a link to a job where the translation is proposed in this way.
      About the similarity of the name of Ardagast and the god Radegast, I write on the basis of the argument from the following work:
      Brzóstkowska A., Swoboda W. Testimonia najdawniejszych dziejów Słowian.— Seria grecka, Zeszyt 2.— Wrocław, 1989.
      I and Piragst and Ardagast have different princes, I just don’t write anything about Pirogast in this article, but I mentioned it next to the first two princes:
      Musky or Ardagast or Piragast, sometimes they raid together, often on their own.


      Sincerely.
      1. fuxila 9 September 2019 17: 44 New
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        Alekseev S.V. in his work "Slavic Europe of the 2th-45th centuries" calls the princes Radogost, Pirogost and the Good (who is written in the Greek text as Davrita). Regarding the latter, I have come across such an interpretation of the name as Dobrit. In any case, the names with the root of "good" were extremely popular among all Slavic peoples. By the name of Ardagast-Joy, see "The Code of Ancient News about the Slavs." Volume 46. S. 17. Comment XNUMX.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 10 September 2019 00: 43 New
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          Alex, thank you.
          Yours faithfully,
          Edward
  7. kalibr 9 September 2019 17: 53 New
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    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Guys take me hamayuna third! I do not have a scientific degree, but 17 years of work at the university, mustache, paws and tail in stock !!!

    17 years is a decent period in any situation. Usually, a teacher can be considered valid after 5 years. And here three times on 5. Write ... and we'll see, help, why not ...
  8. Nadir shah 9 September 2019 17: 54 New
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    Quote: Operator
    Another Russophobic article: "Slavs, Antov leaders arrogantly answered [and], etc., etc."

    In reality, the Avars in Europe could only conquer the steppe territory of the Balaton Lowland (the Roman province of Pannonia), as a result of which they were completely surrounded by Slavs and Germans - Serbs and Croats in the south (mountainous terrain of the future Yugoslavia), Ants in the east (mountainous region of Thrace) , Czechs and Moravians in the north (highlands of the Sudetenland) and Germans in the west (foothills of the Alps).

    There were no interactions between the Avars and the Eastern Ants living in the Dnieper, with the exception of the regular raids of the Eastern Slavs on the territory of Byzantium, including its province of Pannonia.

    At the same time, the Slavs and Germans snapped the nose of the "great and terrible" Avars each time, when they tried to expand the controlled territory.

    After several decades of independent existence, the Avars, according to the Russian annals of "the destruction of aki obre" - i.e. without a trace were slaughtered by the Central European Slavs from the first Slavic state of Samo.

    Jewish "historians" need a shred at least of the Obra wool to try to pour mud on the Slavs.

    Charlemagne still fought with the Avars, it was more than a worthy opponent, and there weren’t any “clicks on the nose”. There was no one to click. And yes, it is not itself the first Slavic state, it did not exist at all.
  9. Nadir shah 9 September 2019 17: 55 New
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    Quote: Operator
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    my hypothetical ancestor tormented Obra

    Do not play clowns - the Avars (like the Huns before them and the Ugrians after them) proceeded in transit through the Black Sea steppes to the natural reservation of the nomads (the Balaton Lowland), where they were almost completely destroyed by the Slavs surrounding them.

    If there was an Avar yoke, then not for long (~ 50 years) and only for white Croats - residents of the Balaton Lowland.

    Was your ancestor originally from a white Croat? laughing

    The Slavs did not destroy anyone there, the Huns still existed several hundred years after the collapse of their power, the Magyars still live. Surprise is so surprise.
  10. Nadir shah 9 September 2019 17: 55 New
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    Quote: dzvero
    Dark Ages ... a sword world without magic ...
    By the way, the number of troops of that period was always surprising - 10000, 20000, 50000, 100000 ... How real are these numbers against the background of the population of that time? And how did they manage such forces in the absence of infrastructure / communications?

    exaggerations are strong, in the dark ages, even 100 people were considered innumerable troops.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 September 2019 20: 02 New
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      You're right! Even A. Shtentsel lamented that in the Middle Ages, "being described as reality." Medieval chroniclers wrote a lot and colorful, but it turned out tedious and not informative '!
      By the way, many of them sinned by borrowing from the works of Greek and Roman Authors!
      And not only Western writers, but also our homegrown writers! For example, in the Tobolsk chronicle of the war, Ermak and Khan Kuchuk sparkle with bronze shields (from Plutarch), and Timofeev went to Siberia for three years! And every year he won a bloody battle (a compilation of the Bible and the works of Aristotle). There, with a gap of 5 sheets, Yermak draws an army of three thousand, and later all 15! By the way, contemporaries call the number from 540 to 700 Cossacks and Okhotsk people!
      Regards, Kote!
  11. Nadir shah 9 September 2019 20: 20 New
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    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    You're right! Even A. Shtentsel lamented that in the Middle Ages, "being described as reality." Medieval chroniclers wrote a lot and colorful, but it turned out tedious and not informative '!
    By the way, many of them sinned by borrowing from the works of Greek and Roman Authors!
    And not only Western writers, but also our homegrown writers! For example, in the Tobolsk chronicle of the war, Ermak and Khan Kuchuk sparkle with bronze shields (from Plutarch), and Timofeev went to Siberia for three years! And every year he won a bloody battle (a compilation of the Bible and the works of Aristotle). There, with a gap of 5 sheets, Yermak draws an army of three thousand, and later all 15! By the way, contemporaries call the number from 540 to 700 Cossacks and Okhotsk people!
    Regards, Kote!

    Yeah, it’s the most. And if they write “to bear them a number” or “died without a number”, then it is immediately clear that there was a fight between the courtyards. But it is understandable, the times of the rule of religion and feudalism nevertheless. I did not have to wait for anything else.
  12. Engineer 9 September 2019 20: 23 New
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    In this post I will try to highlight what remains behind the scenes of the article. Well, draw some conclusions. Perhaps the author will write a separate article about Avars.
    weaponry
    I remember how the initial acquaintance of the armament complex plunged me, a convinced Eurocentrist, into an almost shocked state. One of the main written sources is the Strategicon of Mauritius (or Pseudo-Mauritius). In it, as recommended equipment for the rider, among other things, Avar spears with a loop, neck guards of the Avar type, bibs of horses of the Avar type protecting the chest and neck of the animal are mentioned. Even the rider's cloak (gimantium) is recommended to have an Avar. A very strong influence on the advanced empire from the few fugitives.
    Protective equipment looks even more solid. The author has addressed this topic. I'll try to reveal more fully. The article says that nomads wore laminar armor (i.e. from stripes). But in the author’s reconstruction of the walking warrior, a classic laced armor is depicted, that is, lamellar. At present, thousands of conditionally Avar graves have been excavated (it is not always possible to separate the Avar from the Proto-Bulgarians). Details of lamellar armor are found in abundance. However, armor reconstruction is often done according to finds in Niederstotzingin (early 7th century). The burial there is usually attributed as Alemannic. The finds of the Avar armor are explained by the cultural influence of the Avars in general and the quality of their equipment in particular.
    Here is one of the shell reconstructions.

    With helmets, the situation is even more interesting. They are very interesting, initially completely atypical for Europe, the design is also lamellar. Here is a reconstruction from the same Niederstotzingin:

    But the helmet made 100 years earlier and found in the Kursk region:

    Well, one of the most famous finds. Faceplate of helmet found in Italy

    On the back there is a name - Agilulf. It coincides with the name of the King of the Lombards, who, in alliance with the Avars, crushed the Gepids, and then invaded Italy. The plate depicts a coronation scene. Pay attention to the two bodyguards of the king. They have helmets with short sultans and Avar-type armor (only 50 years have passed since the appearance of the Avars in Europe). Now compare the plate with the helmet reconstructions and the Gorelik pattern at the beginning of Edward's article. Here it is, the quality of the weapons complex. Byzantines and Germans vied with each other to adopt alien equipment.
    Lamellar design has many advantages. Most importantly, it is technological. The plates are made separately, separately sewn onto the base, you can use the division of labor. Try to make a segmented helmet or, even more so, an all-forged helmet - how much labor and skill you need to spend on molding. Any mistake, burnout and everything goes to waste, which is even difficult to melt due to size. A lamella plate can be made even by a not-so-good blacksmith.
    The result of this practice was an abnormally large percentage of co-opted warriors in Europe as part of the Avar army itself. The Byzantine historian Menander speaks of 60 thousand soldiers "clad in armor" who went on a campaign with Khan Boyan. Even taking into account exaggeration, it can be concluded that the same amount of Byzantium or Iran could be exhibited only with the total mobilization of all forces.
    Well-armored, armed with a spear and a compound bow, firmly seated in the saddle thanks to stirrups, the Avar fighter was a versatile fighter who released a cloud of arrows and was suitable for ramming even in the absence of a shield (the Avars did not have much to judge). For even closer contact there was a narrow single-blade broadsword. The genesis of such an armament complex, its East Asian origin and development (especially lamellar armor) is perfectly described and illustrated here:
    https://scfh.ru/papers/v-roskoshnykh-shlemakh-v-pyshnom-bleske-lat-/
    Comparison with the Slavic weapons of that period gives a disappointing conclusion: the nomads had overwhelming superiority. Here is a description of the weapons of the Slavs at the same Mauritius “Each man is armed with two small spears, and some of them with shields, strong, but difficult to bear. "They also use wooden bows and small arrows, smeared with a poisonous substance ..." In an open clash, our ancestors had no chance and could count only on partisan actions
    1. voyaka uh 9 September 2019 21: 12 New
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      Thanks for a very informative interesting post. good
      I learned a lot for myself
      1. Engineer 9 September 2019 21: 20 New
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        Please.
        Maybe somehow I can get a couple of full-fledged articles on VO)
        1. Edward Vashchenko 10 September 2019 12: 33 New
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          good
          By the way, he promised:
          1. Engineer 10 September 2019 12: 41 New
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            They are the most. Pay attention to the low forehead. In the child, the upper part of the forehead and the pre-dark region were bandaged crosswise. It turned out a back elongated skull a la Alien. In life, probably horror. Plus a tendency to migraine and the removal of mechanisms of inhibition of aggression. Fulhouse is nomadic)
    2. Edward Vashchenko 10 September 2019 00: 49 New
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      Denis,
      In general, there are no special contradictions with you on this issue, I repeat - this is not about Avar weapons, but I’m ready to argue about the details that you decided to go through.
      Yes - I used the term laminar armor, a synonym for it is often used lamellar, I will not argue - I used it myself before. You can call "board armor", in Russian, by the way, I duplicated the term "zab".
      By the way, here in VO there is an article about zab, your opinion is interesting.
      The armor depicted is an exact copy of the find from the Avar cemetery of Kunsentmarton (9 nearby) and looks like a shell of the VI century. from Altai, from the Tatar Graves, reconstructed by V.V. Gorbunov (7 rows). There were only two whole armor.
      As for the plate from the helmet of Ataulf, of course, I am familiar with it. But, if we go to the end in authenticity, then when we talk about lamellar armor - its continuity from Avars to Lombards does not raise questions.
      But there are a lot of questions about helmets. Of the 165 graves of the Nosers of Umbra, there is only one scavenger (6 grave), of the Lombard burial site of Castel Trozino: 236 graves are only the 163 grave. No data are available for the Avar burial grounds. The helmet is similar to the image from the Ataulf plate from Niederstötzungen, South Germany, which is why it is used in all avar images, although the burial is German, as you indicated, a similar helmet is stored in the State Historical Museum from the Bosporus.
      One more image remains on the jug from the Synnikolaul Mare (Vienna Museum of Art), the rider has a completely different helmet, although this jug has no exact dating: from Avars to Proto-Bulgarians.
      Therefore, I depicted a “walking” avar without a helmet - we do not have accurate data on the Avar helmet, so the image from the Ataulf helmet is not entirely correct evidence.
      It is worth taking into account the opinion of F. Dime that similar finds in the Alamanian burial grounds and the Avar ones do not speak about the influence of the Avars, but about the influence of the Lombards on both.
      And the translation about 60 thousands of riders in armor, two questions: the first is the question in the 60 figure itself, and the second in the translation Ιππέων (Ἱππεύς) - why in armor, and not just the riders?
      Of course, the Slavs faced a stern enemy, but ... John of Ephesus wrote that the Slavs also acquired armor and learned the tactics of the Romans.

      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. Engineer 10 September 2019 10: 08 New
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        Edward,
        I don’t want it to seem that that long post was not written to spite you. In the introduction, he indicated that the goal was to expand the horizon of the original article. Lamellar, not laminar, is not a collision, but the desire not to multiply entities. Plus, in English literature such armor is also called Lamellar.
        I was surprised that agreeing with the Avar origin of the armor, you showed some kind of hypercriticism regarding the Avar origin of helmets. Moreover, the main argument, as I understand it, there are practically no scavengers in the burial grounds, while on reconstructions of helmets it is very close, right?
        German helmets before the Avars are well known. These are frame helmets made of segments (spangelhelm), sometimes having a crest and going back to late Roman forms. You cannot but know this, but for the rest I'll post a picture.

        This is a Gepid helmet from Jentesh - Bekehat
        It is clearly seen that the lamellar helmets of Europe cannot evolve from such forms. But with the lamellar Avar armor in harmony perfectly. If you accept your point of view that lamellar helmets are not Avaric, the only thing left is to assume that our talented Lombards were inspired by the nomad armor and created helmets on the same principle. But how then to explain the same helmet from the Kursk region? Also tried the Lombards? But on it there is even a scavenger, although rather symbolic.
        I did not accidentally give a link to this site
        https://scfh.ru/papers/v-roskoshnykh-shlemakh-v-pyshnom-bleske-lat-/

        This is the Syanbi helmet, reconstructed on the basis of finds in the burial ground of the 3rd century AD. Doesn’t he look like the "big brother" of the "Avar" lamellar helmets? If the Avars are Zhujani, then the Zhujani considered themselves of the same origin with Toba (Bichurin). And toba is a section of syanbi. It all fits together.
        My opinion is that according to the amount of available data, the lamellar helmets of Europe are Avaric. But perhaps the scaffolds, which they are so eager to draw, were actually very rare.
        About Cologne helmet, I wrote a separate post here.
        About 60 thousand horsemen are an obvious exaggeration, but not by an order of magnitude, but rather at times. I have no doubt that the nomads, thanks to their mobility and the social pyramid in which they were at the very top and freed from everyday work, could mobilize an inconceivable percentage of the population for the rest. In general, the number of antique and medieval armies is a very interesting topic. I do not share the hypercriticism of many researchers, and I have no doubt that Rome itself exhibited tens of thousands of soldiers on the battlefield.
        On the shells of the riders there is nothing to argue). The original Menander is not familiar to me.
        I can’t seriously accept John of Ephesus. His passage about the Slavs is a typical rhetoric of "retribution for our sins." In the end, who is he and who is Mauritius, who writes the exact opposite?) By the way, in the “Code of Written Lives of the Slavs”, the translation is not armor, but armament. There is also the original text. You can check.
        And finally, did you notice that the nature of the confrontation between the Slavs and the Romans has changed since the second half of the 6th century? It seems that the Slavs are gathering larger armies than before, but it is of little use. Byzantine operations against them are more like punitive campaigns. No more feats of 3000 slaves against superior powers. There are no situations where 15 thousand Romans are afraid to attack the Slavic army retreating with prey in principle. When the Romans meet the purely Slavic troops they beat them. Virtually no options. John of Ephesus confuses something))). In general, I have the assumption that with the advent of the Avars, the social elite of the Slavs disappeared, which was the reason for the certain effectiveness of their armies earlier. Now these are some amorphous masses, albeit of a larger number. Literally food for Byzantine swords according to ancient writers.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 10 September 2019 12: 27 New
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          Denis,
          Good day!
          There are no questions about German and Avar helmets. By the way, I collected all the helmets of the 6 century spangelhelms that have come down to me, I posted them on the VO.
          You once remarked well that what is not clearly confirmed remains an extremely controversial issue.
          Therefore, in my opinion, do not get it wrong, the site you brought to the end does not pull the source, the images of many of these helmets are wandering in Osprey, of course, with errors, but it does not follow from this that the Avar had this type of helmet, however , and vice versa. Such a helmet, by virtue of its manufacture, is extremely rare, not spangelhelm.
          Here is a photo from Paulsen: a spherical helmet, and spring plates on top.

          By the way, this helmet from Niederstotzingen was reconstructed, all plates were found separately.
          Here, for example, what a helmet from Kulyagish looks like, can be compared with reconstruction on the given site:

          Yes, we have a helmet from Kerch of the 5th-6th centuries, very similar, I laid it out, but it “sintered”, but most likely - all-metal.

          By the way, spagelhelm - one of the theories suggests that they are of Sasanian origin.
          The Sassanids have two-piece helmets, but there are no lamels, and they came closer to this world.
          The presence of the reconstruction of M. Gorelik and from Osprey is a necessary design, and not my statement that the Avar looked exactly like that. wink Well, we don’t have any other pictures, but according to the Slavs, it’s completely a disaster. wink Avar took his from his article on armament, just without these pictures everything would have been fresh)
          And therefore, for my reconstruction, I can clearly say, I didn’t want to lay out everything again, every piece of equipment has an archaeological prototype. I didn’t suffer with helmets, so as not to get a “hello” that the helmet of Ataulf was not Avar at all)))
          Well, plus - hair, this is what distinguished the avar from other "Huns", it was important to depict.
          Followed your recommendations))) lol
          Yes, but the warriors from China (in sculpture) of this period.


          Also not quite lamellar helmets.
          Fuf, made to sweat.

          Yours faithfully,
          Edward
          1. Engineer 10 September 2019 13: 21 New
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            Thanks for the additions.
            I perfectly understand that everything that is written is largely hypothetical. But some hypotheses are better founded than others. If, for example, in the reconstruction of the appearance of the Avar, a belt found in a synchronous Bulgarian burial ground is used, this is justified, with some reservations. . They were culturally and politically close. And if in the reconstruction of the appearance of the Slavs to use the details of a German costume, then no longer. Culturally and politically, they are far from each other.
            Please do not consider a stone in your garden, but you do not often formulate your conclusions explicitly and do not give a summary of what has been said, which is even more important. It's often hard for me to understand you. I only came to the realization of the importance of this problem twenty times by writing an essay for the Cambridge exams. Before that I wrote very messy.
            If you understand correctly, then your conclusion is:
            Our dataset does not allow us to reliably tell what type of helmets Avars used. The reconstructions given are based on findings in non-Avar sites and the correlation with nomads is hypothetical in nature. Currently, there are several samples of headgear of that period that are found in the area associated with the Avars. Reliable attribution of them is difficult, and they are very different in form and technology. Most likely the Avars used the helmet quite widely, but which one we cannot say with certainty. Did I understand correctly?

            Concluding the discussion:
            - Helmets of that period are generally extremely rare.
            - Helmet from Kerch 90% lamellar. I saw very similar in the article about the cemeteries in Sogd they are lamellar, they just sintered to a slightly lesser extent and the plates can be seen.
            - The Sassanids are not entirely relevant, they were ahead of the Germans in development, respectively, the need for borrowing is much less. They didn’t need a lamellar.
            -The helmet from Kursk that I brought-NOT reconstruction. This wonderful thing is really well preserved. Lamellar in its purest form.

            The last image is clearly stylized. Recalled how the Chinese lions depict.

            By the way, I think that Avars wore braids with a high degree of probability. Not dreadlocks, but real thick braids. Kinship with Toba oblige). By the way, the Zhuanzhuans at Aimatov wear braids. This "argument" is weak, but it was remembered to the heap.

            Sincerely.
            1. Edward Vashchenko 10 September 2019 16: 19 New
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              Of course ... except for Aitmatov wink
    3. fuxila 10 September 2019 13: 13 New
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      Denis, very interesting, only you were a little mistaken at the expense of Agilulf. Alboin brought the Lombards to Italy, it was he who crushed the Gepids, and Agilulf was the fourth king of the Lombard kingdom in Italy after Alboin, Clef and Autari.
      1. Engineer 10 September 2019 13: 25 New
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        Thanks for the correction. The mistake is gross. Reevaluated his memory).
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 10 September 2019 18: 49 New
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          You it what just don’t stop! laughing
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. Engineer 10 September 2019 19: 10 New
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            Yes, everything seemed to be discussed. They posted funny pictures, they promised a holivar on helmets.
            It remains only to go to the individual and mutually blame each other for incompetence. laughing
            But we still have time bully There are many articles ahead
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 10 September 2019 19: 31 New
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              Quote: Engineer
              Yes, everything seemed to be discussed. They posted funny pictures, they promised a holivar on helmets.
              It remains only to go to the individual and mutually blame each other for incompetence. laughing
              But we still have time bully There are many articles ahead

              It’s just that you don’t need to go over to personalities, otherwise you’ll quarrel, be offended, you’ll play in silence !!! It’s not better for you to discuss, but we will read aside!
              Regards, Vlad!
              1. Engineer 10 September 2019 19: 35 New
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                Well, this is the quintessence of historical (and not only) forums - people communicate in a friendly manner, and then hysteria, mate and mutual ignore. So to speak, canon, classic. And generally old school bully
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 10 September 2019 19: 42 New
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                  Well, as far as I know Edward, he is not inclined to this !!! Of course, there are copies here, but again not our Author!
                  In my first posts I criticized Edward for the dryness and furious presentation of the material. Another would be offended in his place, he accepted the criticism and tried to turn off the academician! Such and such, we readers of VO only benefit from this!
                  And today, you and Edward gave the heat if you noticed that the rest were reading a dispute, without words and notes, and this is worth a lot!
                  1. Engineer 10 September 2019 19: 57 New
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                    if you noticed that the rest were reading a dispute, without words and notes, and it’s worth it!

                    But this is not very good. The same Caliber could throw firewood on the case.
                    I have already voiced my complaints. Eduard stubbornly does not want to pay at least a little attention to educational work. I started writing about Wends, it’s better to immediately write why Wends are not vandals. One paragraph and so many myths in the mind can be destroyed. Supporters of the millennial Slavic Reich before baptism, a sect of witnesses to the Masonic conspiracy, they are all here. Therefore, it is important for the rest to give at least general directions regarding history, as it seems to me. For example, tell how archaeologists define the "Slavic" cultures.
                    But I will not repeat myself. He has his own professional look. He knows better. Moreover, you can always write something yourself.
          2. Trilobite Master 10 September 2019 20: 21 New
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            .
            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            You just do not stop!

            I also read with pleasure. good
            I express my gratitude to colleagues with karmic entry. smile
    4. kalibr 10 September 2019 20: 11 New
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      Very nice comment!
      1. Engineer 10 September 2019 20: 30 New
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        Everyone who was interested-
        To health)
        1. Edward Vashchenko 11 September 2019 07: 55 New
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          I join, though belatedly hi
  13. faterdom 9 September 2019 20: 27 New
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    Vyacheslav, this is such an aspect ... why in ancient times there was a resettlement (invasion) from north to south (the Aryans to Iran and Hindustan, the "peoples of the sea" in 1200 BC, the Dorians in Greece, the Macedonian went on a campaign South and East) ...
    But then flooded from the east - the Huns, Avars, Ugrians (Hungarians), Turks, Mongols ... and these are only large and successful invasions? Gumilev attributes this to the mysterious “passionarity” plus some natural global shifts (“Ancient Russia and the Great Steppe”).
    Why did these steppes and deserts begin to spew tens and hundreds of thousands of well-armed horsemen for centuries? Why has this not happened before? Or was there another direction, Shi Huangdi, for example, weren't these of them?
    1. voyaka uh 9 September 2019 21: 17 New
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      The most logical explanation: local climate change. Drought.
      The people are moving. Runs into arms with other people. They run too.
      The principle of dominoes.
      Why did the ancient Jews end up in Egypt? - drought in Judea for several years in a row.
      They moved to Egyptian possessions and began to pay tribute. And then them
      "seized" and into slavery on the state. construction works.
  14. Engineer 9 September 2019 20: 43 New
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    The promised holivar about helmets.
    Unfortunately, I did not find anything about the helmet from the Cologne Museum .. The background is completely incomprehensible. In what cultural layers, the exact localization of how the dating was made. Everything is unclear.
    Most importantly, it is WHOLE FORGED !!! Eyes climbed his forehead when he did not see the rivets. For that time it is hi-tech. Piece goods.
    On the other hand, lamellar helmets can be traced from Mongolia to Europe. This agrees very well with the geography of movement of our nomads if we accept that they and the Jujans are one person. It is logical that people from East Asia have helmets typical of the region.
    The second one. The Germans again adapt precisely the lamellar helmet. Apparently they first encountered him.
  15. Engineer 9 September 2019 22: 27 New
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    By the way, I have never met such a comparison in the literature, although probably someone has already paid attention to me.
    The memory of the images In the retelling of Nestor, the people themselves survived for 400 years:
    [/ quote] So, shave the warrior into words and primuchisha dulba, existing words, and violence to the wives of the wives dulѣbsky: ashe pohati more than obryna, not giving the harrowing horse, nor the ox, but the great harrowing 3, or 4, or 5 women to lead obrin, and taco to mulahu dulѣba. [quote]

    This is widely known.
    But if the Avars are Juan Juan, then they are Juan Juan (just a reading option). And if so, then we are faced with an even more famous legend. These are the same notorious mankrut workers by Ch. Aimatov !!! Freshly skinned skin was put on the heads of the captives and left under the sun. Those who survived lost their minds.
    In this case, the people's memory turns out to have preserved information after 1500 years !!!
    And the appearance of the alien avars receives additional features, disgustingly in harmony with the news of Nestor.
  16. The comment was deleted.
  17. Operator 10 September 2019 00: 38 New
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    Quote: Engineer
    For that time, it's high tech

    These are the asses of Roman technology 700 years ago

  18. So why redo it? The term befulki in Fredegar is spelled befulсi, that is, Befulians (Byvaltsy or Bivaltsy) - an attempt to convey the SLAVIC term in Latin letters is obvious (there is no sound B in Latin). And in the form of befulka - it immediately becomes, as it were, NOT Slavic.
    And it’s not clear: “One can only speak about the origin of the Avars presumably.”, But “The Avars, or the edges of the ancient Russian annals, were the Ural-Altai Turkic tribe.” So, presumably, or the Ural-Altai Turkic tribe?
    And "material culture was poor," however, there were full armor, stirrups (which the Byzantines did not have!), Good saddles ...
    Do not you think that all this somehow does not fit together?
    1. Edward Vashchenko 10 September 2019 18: 35 New
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      Nikolay Dmitrievich,
      why forgeries seem to be everywhere?
      Achepyatka. Thank you for your comment.
      But what this term means: a lot of controversy - there is no consensus, so I'm sorry, you have one of the interpretations - that's all.
      About the Avar material culture: there is no consolidated historiography of Avar archeology, but archaeologically there is a division into three periods: early, middle and late. Again, a lot of controversy, which is the attribution of the period. However, the Avars used bone lining in lamennar armor, waist sets were also from the horn, and the horn was also used in jigs.
      This is an important "specificity" of the nomadic empire, while the poor are active, as soon as they grow into "wealth", they lose their ability to survive. He wrote about this in VO in an article about the Huns of the 6th century.
      In the steppes of the Black Sea region they became overgrown with wealth, because in the late burial grounds everything is different6 especially in rich burials: gold, etc.
      Lamellar armor - yes, it was an attribute of the avar, but it is poorly represented in burials, that is, in fact, we don’t know how much of the army was in the “zab”, but how not.
      It is debatable here about the translation of Menendar about 60 thousands of riders in armor here in the comments above.
      Certainly strong opponents, but there is another important point that was not reflected in the article (another topic): Byzantium had no resources here, they were constantly involved in other regions, as soon as Vasilevs Mauritius managed to agree with the Sassanids, right there on the Balkans the army was thrown, which defeated the Avar (more on that in the sequel).
      So there are no contradictions.
      Sincerely.
  19. Elturisto 10 September 2019 21: 55 New
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    "Avars, or the edges of the ancient Russian annals, were the Ural-Altai Turkic tribe"
    Where do the firewood come from? What does it mean Turkic, in what sense, linguistic? The burial grounds of noble Avars, as well as the Huns, show skulls of the Mongoloid type (Mongol-Buryat and Tungus-Manjur type). An additional real confirmation of the Mongolian origin of the Avars and Huns is the Mongols of Genghis, repeated a trip to Europe. Nothing like these trips were made by any Turks, nor could they be done. However, any Gumileans, a short-sighted person, unable to think on their own ... Article slag ... drawings-reconstruction garbage ...