As the early Slavs actually fought


Siege. Early Slavs of the XNUMXth century Figure (not reconstruction) of the author


After two previous articles on VO we examined the question of the existence of a princely and retinue military organization among the early Slavs; we describe the role of secret unions and tribal militias as the basis of the military forces of the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries. among the Slavs.

Gender Military Associations


Some researchers, based on folklore data, believe that “the Slavs played a significant role in the early political organization of military fraternities” (S. Alekseev).

And with this, perhaps it would be difficult to argue. Secret male unions, primarily military alliances with tough initiations, ideas about werewolf warriors, wild animal warriors, are reflected in late folklore. Moreover, ethnographers cite a wide range of such secret male organizations around the world, but especially in Africa, the classic country of secret societies, Australia and North America (for example, Indians).

But in the absence of any data on such structures among the Slavs, it is necessary to use comparativelyhistorical analysis and folklore material.

The emergence of such paramilitary groups among the southern Slavs can be associated only with the period of the formation of statehood (not earlier). Having partly roots in the more ancient period, the “heroic” or youthful epic was formed here during the struggle against Turkish aggression and later.

We repeat, the promotion of the Antian tribes, and earlier the Slovenian ones, was carried out exclusively within the framework of a single tribal system, it was its presence and the absence of the collapse of the clan community that did not allow the tribal early state institutions to arise: that is, the “people” preferred tribal protection to other systems.

Therefore, it is not necessary to say that folklore regarding secret societies originates precisely in the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries. Let me remind you that the transition from a clan to a territorial community in Ancient Rus took place from the end of the XNUMXth to the XNUMXth centuries, just when the Eastern Slavs also had a werewolf prince, but this is a different story.

For the period under review, written sources in no way allow us to talk about any kind of stratification and social confrontation in society, the Slavs everywhere appear within the clan.

Extensive ethnographic material also attests to this.

“With all this, the main, determining factor in the development of“ secret unions ”should be considered,” wrote Yu. V. Andreev, “undoubtedly, property inequality that decomposes the primitive community, as well as the rudiments of human exploitation that arise in it. In most "secret societies", the right to enter and then transfer from one degree of "initiation" to another is usually bought, which, of course, severely limits the composition of these associations, and especially the composition of their ruling elite. The main goal of many unions is to protect the private property of their members. Therefore, they often appropriate the right to taboo a wide variety of subjects, collect debts from faulty debtors, try to regulate prices in the market, etc. ”

We repeat, we have no data on similar processes in Slavic society during the period under review, which means that there was no need to create these structures, the whole tribe was an army and secret alliances could not resist anyone. We do not have data about certain military fraternities, independent of the community and opposing it, and the conclusions made on the basis of folklore material do not give us the right to speak with confidence. We do not have reliable material on this score from the early history of Ancient Russia.

Fraudulent (robbers) of the fraternity is an institution of the period of the beginning of stratification in society, the emergence of enslavement of tribesmen (slaves), the collapse of the clan community and former clan ties, the appearance of outcasts as a system, which was not under the rule of the clan. This situation for Ancient Russia was described under 996, when "robberies increased greatly" and the bishops advised Vladimir to use force, that is, we see that there is a breakdown of tribal relations, a transition to a neighboring community, and the allocation of new categories in society, including and standing outside the race and opposing the race.

We can only assume that in the framework of the tribal military organization of the Slavs and only in conditions of constant instability or during the migration period, that is, during the real war, initiations took place. Otherwise, their need is difficult to explain for the agricultural peoples, which were the early Slavs.

The confusion brought by extensive material from Africa, North America and Oceania in matters of secret alliances, initiations, etc. is not always, as it seems to us, representative of the history of European peoples.

For example, in Sparta and similar city-states of Greece, these unions were used as an instrument of constant terror against the Achaean population of the Peloponnese, turned into slaves of fisk (helots). Crypts are a state institution of a class society, the “secret union” here acts as a part of the state, as in the XNUMXth century. The "death squads" in Latin America, and not opposed to it, although perhaps they originate from the primitive initiatory initiations of the young Dorians.

There was an attempt to identify fortifications, such as Zimno (a settlement on the Luga River, a tributary of the Zap. Buka, Volyn, Ukraine) and Khotomel (the lower reaches of the Goryny River, Brest Region, Belarus), as gathering centers for youth “male unions” before campaigns South. Khotomel stood on a hill, protected by an earthen rampart, and from the west and a moat. In Khotomeli, the remains of lamellar armor were discovered in the layers of the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries. And Zimno was located on the cape of a high river bank, was surrounded by a wall of wooden risers and horizontal logs fixed in grooves, as well as a picket fence.

But in either case, family houses, craft workshops were discovered on the territory of the dwellings, that is, they could not be any special gathering center for youth detachments (Kazan MM).

The emergence of "secret societies" in the Slavic environment of the VI — VIII centuries. it was meaningless, since no contradictions arose within the framework of the kind, and “male unions” among all the peoples indicated by ethnographers were a mechanism of exploitation (women and children) and terror in the struggle for power, and confrontation on the basis of age and gender or ethnicity. There was no other need for their existence.

The Slavic community was not as militarized as the Germanic, and even more so nomadic Turkic peoples, there was no strict gender division, when, as, for example, nomads had free men, and not vigilantes, did not do physical labor at all, devoting themselves exclusively to hunting and war . Agriculture demanded primarily male participation in production, war-raid in such a society was an additional rather than a main activity, and it is on this basis that we should consider both weapons and combat skills.

As for the issues of totemism, it should be understood that totems were not necessarily with “secret societies”, most likely and primarily with tribes, but, for example, along with information about animal totems, we have reliable information about tree totems from the Eastern Slavs - birch, pine - among the Serbs, oak - everywhere (Zelenin D.K.).

In Pseudo-Caesarea we read about Slovenes:

"The first live in obstinacy, waywardness, lack of authority ... eating foxes, and forest cats, and wild boars, echoing the wolf howl."

If this is not an artistic exaggeration, which is in disagreement with the message of the informed author of Strategikon, possibly of Vasilevs Mauritius himself, about the wealth of the Ants and the Slavs from the fruits of agricultural activity, then, of course, it can be assumed that the Slavs eat totem animals, as, by the way, on the contrary, just game shot in the forest.

The same can be said about the use of wolf howl, leaving aside the topic of borrowing such roll call from the Türks. As we know, for example, the Polovtsian Khan Bonyak echoed the wolves, “asked-guessed” them about the upcoming battle and its results.

A contemporary of the wars of Emperor Heraclius and the siege of Constantinople in 629, the poet George Pisida, calls the Slavs wolves. Talking about the siege of the Romeic capital, he wrote: "... on the other hand, the Slavic wolves suddenly ran out." And the archbishop of Thessaloniki called the Slavs who besieged his city, beasts. Perhaps this is just an artistic comparison, and perhaps we are talking about tribes that have a wolf totem, but this information, it seems to us, makes it possible to interpret these words of the poet very freely. For example, to consider that he writes about the unions of wolflords (ghouls or werewolves, werewolf among the Germans), or not to take it that way. As well as from the stylistic comparison of Michael the Syrian that the Slavs growled like a lion for prey, it is hardly possible to draw a conclusion about the Slavic lion totem or the tribe “lion” (585).

On the other hand, there is an opinion that the ethnonym of the West Slavic tribe Wilzi comes from Old Polab - wolves, according to another version, from Old Russian - giants, although there are no more tribal names in this region. However, according to the “Annals of the Kingdom of the Franks”, the Wilts themselves called themselves Welatabi or Velet.

I repeat, the Slavic militia could easily have echoed a wolf howl, as well as use the “familiar to the ear meanings of barbaric cries”, which the inhabitants of Thessaloniki besieged by the Slavs spoke of, but this is just information about battle cries, nothing more. It is worth saying that the battle cry or hoot of the Cossacks during the attack surprised and astounded their European opponents in the XNUMXth - early XNUMXth centuries. Here is how Mauritius Stratig writes about the “psychic attack” of the Slavs:

“If, however, they have to dare, on occasion, to battle, they scream all together and move forward a little. And if the enemies succumb to their cry, they swiftly attack; if not, they stop screaming and, not trying to test their enemies in hand-to-hand power, run away into the forests, having a great advantage there, because they know how to fight properly in the gorges. ”

As for the “fighting” age and sex groups, a comparative analysis tells us that they were naturally used during the migration, we are talking about young men who, having organized themselves into teams, could, for example, go on reconnaissance campaigns:

“In addition, the most trained young men, using the right moment, secretly attacked the startiots, as a result of which those who make a campaign against them are not able to harm their opponents.”

The participation of young men, young people as skirmishers in the war naturally, not without reason the heroes of the South Slavic epic derive their name from the young men, later this name simply had the meaning of a hero, a warrior without indicating age:

Yunaku cannot live without a fight,
It’s not a matter of going after a plow
To the one born of the boyfriend,
No sowing wheat
To the one who fought for the will.

Of course, nothing like that during the period of VI – VIII centuries. it is not necessary to say, within the framework of the tribal system or the early so-called. Slavs do not have any military democracy regarding the opposition of the warrior to the farmer, and young people don’t have to talk to the old, this is a structure of clear vertical subordination, where each member has a certain functional, both in war and in civilian life. This is a system controlled not by economic relations, but by kinship.

Slavic society of this period (VI-VIII centuries) is rather rich in the fruits of its labor than in war. “They have a wide variety of livestock and cereals,” writes Mauritius, author of the Statigocon, “folded into ricks, especially millet and spelled.”


Slavic warrior of the XNUMXth century Author's drawing

Tribal militia


Sources tell us about the existence of a popular assembly, councils of elders or simply elders, and about military leaders. In such a society, war is the work of all, even slaves beyond its borders, and even then they are attracted to the war, not without reason the author of "Startegikon" indicates that one should not trust the defectors from the Slavs, even if they are Romans, who were once captured by them, "changed over time, forgetting about their own and giving preference to the favor of the enemies. "

What was the structure of the tribal militia?

Retreat. When it comes to the militia, in particular, the urban militia of Ancient Russia, the image that has developed in the USSR under the influence of the B. D. Grekov school and is represented even in the modern school is often drawn, namely: the city militia was such as in medieval Europe, helped professional combatant. Let us leave this controversial historiographic statement aside, note that even in Ancient Russia the so-called city militia, and, in fact, regiments of howls of the entire volost or land, were the main army of cities or lands, where the squads were sharply inferior to them in size, and often by force, and the militias were not convoyed by the "knights." But I think about this, I will write later. About the period we are considering B.D. Grekov wrote, recognizing the strength of the tribal militia:

"VI century. finds Slavs and Ants in a state of “military democracy”. In the same century, the Slavs and Ants made more successes in military affairs ... "

So, at the heart of the military organization of the Slavs was the army-people or the tribal militia of all capable men.

Returning to the question of the squad, it is worth repeating that we have absolutely no data on it in the sources.

But in the scientific literature there is an opinion that the beginnings of the squad as detachments for performing certain tasks have existed since the "Ant period", but these were not professional squads (V. Sedov).

So, in 585, as Mikhail Syriyets reports, when the army of Slavs (Sklavins), that is, the entire male population, with the Avar Kagan was on a campaign against Byzantium, the Ants attacked their lands, having completely plundered them.

Byzantine border guards, according to Konstantin Bagryanorodny, crossed the Danube in Dalmatia and plundered the villages, "while men and boys were on a military campaign."

The legendary Prince Kiy makes his trip to Constantinople with all his kind, that is, all male warriors.

Croats howl in Dalmatia with the Avars, conquering their homeland, by the whole people, led by the clan of five brothers.

Tribes led by Hatson (Khotimir or Khotun) make the transition to the south, where all the militia first empties (liberates) the rural territory, robs the islands and the coast, and then occupies territories in Macedonia and Greece. In the end, the testimony of the Russian chronicler says: the clan arose on the clan.

The very terms associated with the army that have come down to us say this: howl - warrior of the militia, voivode - howl, the one who leads the militia to war, war, slaughter, boyar - from battle, battle, howl - the "commander" of the militia detachment, actually , and war, and the army - this is a clash of howls and the organization of howling communes. You should not look for Turkic roots in the term “boyar”, Bulgarian “boils” are consonant with the boyars, but are of independent origin. Otherwise, how to explain this term in the territory of Ancient Rus, long before borrowing the written language from Bulgaria? However, through writing, important social institutions and titles are not borrowed. We also have terms such as “military” and “warriors”.

So, the structure of the troops of the early Slavs is a tribal militia, quite possibly, often without a single leader due to the lack of need for it.

Fighting or battles of the Early Middle Ages among all peoples is an individual clash of warriors, the task of the leader was to bring the army to the battlefield, to build it in some way, for example, a “pig”, a formation traditional for the Germans, and then the battle went almost by itself to himself, the role of the commander was reduced to setting an example in battle with his own hands. Partly the exception in this situation were the Byzantine armies, but their commanders stood in the battle ranks and actively fought. Based on the Slavic tactics of ambushes and the constant use of fortifications and shelters (more on this in further articles), a single management was unnecessary: ​​each clan lived and fought independently. For comparison, we give the message of Julius Caesar about the Germanic tribes who were at a similar stage of development:

"The more a well-known community devastates neighboring lands and the wider the desert surrounding it, the more glory for it."

[Notes on the Gallic War. VI .23.]

Such a structure lies at the basis of the Slavic army, not only in the VI century, but also later, from the beginning of the collapse of tribal relations and the transition to a territorial community, little has changed in the management of the army instead or together with the clan leaders: princes, but the lack of strong Slavic associations, the isolation of tribal formations, their constant search for momentary benefits, as well as pressure from neighboring opponents, who had a more perfect structure for the war (Romans, Germanic tribes , Proto-Bulgarians and Avars), did not contribute to the development of military organization.

When I write "about the search for momentary benefits", it is difficult to understand whether this property was an unwillingness to agree on a common benefit, as Mauritius Stratig noted, with the specifics of this stage of development of the tribal organization or ethnicity of the Slavs.

Observing some features of such behavior up to the present day, we are all inclined to assume that we are talking about staging, and it is appropriate to draw a comparative historical parallel from the history of the ethnos of another language group - the Israelis.

After the invasion of Canaan and the death of the formidable tribal leader Jesus Joshua, the union broke up instantly, the tribes began to be at enmity with each other, became dependent on the Canaanites, being in the territory where the cities remained in the hands of the natives.

So, for this period with confidence we can speak specifically about the tribal military organization or the general armament of the community members. So, during the siege of Thessaloniki at the beginning of the VII century. the Slavs fought

“... having with them on land their clans along with their property; they intended to settle them in the city after [his] capture. ”

The tribes who besieged the city, led by Hatson, - this is the whole people, from small to large. Incidentally, this tribal militia possessed such skills as sea voyages and the creation of siege vehicles (see continued).

Comparing with the Germans, I will quote from Tacitus (50s - 120 years AD), emphasizing the key incentive of these soldiers:

“... but most of all, they are encouraged by courage that the horse detachments and combat wedges are not drawn up according to the whims of circumstances and are not random masses, but consist of family ties and consanguinity; moreover, their loved ones are near them, so that they can hear the cries of women and the crying of infants, and each of these witnesses is the most sacred thing that he has, and their praise is more dear than any other. ”

[Tacit. G. 46.]

Thus, for the VI-VIII centuries. we can say that the main military unit among the Slavs was an army-tribe, or clan. It was this structure that was the main one in the war, the sources that came to us do not allow us to talk about princely professional squads, or about "secret military alliances" for this period as not corresponding to the social structure of the early Slavs.

Sources and literature:

Konstantin Bagryanorodny. About managing an empire. Translation G.G. Timpani. Edited by G.G. Litavrina, A.P. Novoseltseva. M., 1991.
Cornelius Tacitus On the Origin of the Germans and the Location of the Germans Translation Babichev AS, ed. Sergeenko M.E. // Cornelius Tacitus. Composition in two volumes. St. Petersburg, 1993.
PVL. Text preparation, translation, articles and comments by D. S. Likhachev. SPB., 1996.
PSRL. T.1. Laurentian Chronicle. M., 1997.
Codex of ancient written news about the Slavs. T.II. M., 1995.
Sirotko Gencho Translation, ed. E. Knipovich // Bulgarian literature // Foreign literature of the Middle Ages. Compiled by V.I. Purishev. M., 1975.
Mauritius Strategicon / Translation and commentary by V.V. Kuchma. St. Petersburg, 2003.
Alekseev S.V. Slavic Europe of the 5th — 6th centuries. M., 2005.
Andreev Yu.V. Men's unions in the Dorian city-states (Sparta and Crete) St. Petersburg, 2004.
Pletneva L.G. The history of Sparta. The period of archaic and classic. SPb., 2002.
Sedov V.V. Slavs. Old Russian nationality. M., 2005.
Kazan M.M. On the military organization of the Slavs in the V — VII centuries: leaders, professional warriors and archaeological data // “By Fire and Sword” Stratum plus No. 5.
Zelenin D.K. Totemic cult of trees among Russians and Belarusians // Izvestiya AN SSSR. VII. Number 8. L., 1933.
Levy-Strauss K. Structural Anthropology. M., 2011.
Grekov B. D. Kievan Rus. M7, 1953.
Sedov V.V. Slavs. Old Russian nationality. M., 2005.
Rybakov B.A. The early culture of the eastern Slavs // History magazine. 1943. No. 11-12.
Caesar Guy Julius Notes. Per. M.M. Pokrovsky edited by A.V. Korolenkova. M., 2004.
Kosidovsky Z. Biblical tales. The Tale of the Evangelists. M., 1990.
Die Slawen in Deutschland. Herausgegeben von J. Herrmann, Berlin.1985.

To be continued ...
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  1. 3x3zsave 19 March 2020 06: 21 New
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    Thanks Edward!
    "Changed over time, forgetting about their own and giving preference to the favor of the enemies." Stockholm Syndrome?
    1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 08: 09 New
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      "Changed over time, forgetting about their own and giving preference to the favor of the enemies." Stockholm Syndrome?

      Anton,
      Good morning, I think in the conditions of the horror and instability that was happening on the Danube border, in addition to tax oppression by the center of the empire, the milder treatment of the Slavs with prisoners and slaves, gave rise to the transition to their side of a certain part of the population.
      1. Vend 19 March 2020 09: 55 New
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        The work has been done well, but there are other sources telling about the military organization of the Slavs, for example, "History of the Lombards."
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 10: 20 New
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          Thank you,
          Of course, I also use the History of the Lombards, as part of the cycle, in this article.
          In the next article, about the siege of the early Slavs, will be.
          Regards
          hi
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 10: 17 New
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        As far as I remember, slavery among the Slavs was urgent. Apparently in the conditions of a tribal society - it was quite a costly pleasure (to feed another mouth). So the captive was motivated by integration into the clan. Free hands are not superfluous.
  2. Korsar4 19 March 2020 07: 39 New
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    An interesting selection of animals for hunting: "foxes, forest cats and wild boars." For me - not quite ordinary.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 10: 02 New
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      Well, about cats, apparently they are crazy !!! On the other hand, the Author could observe this phenomenon only for a short time and in the campaign of the Slavs, and then whoever was caught was eaten. Hunger is not an aunt!
      1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 10: 53 New
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        Well, about cats, apparently they are crazy !!!

        I think so too!
        1. Fishery 19 March 2020 15: 45 New
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          A cat in pagan Russia "Advancement" of a domestic cat from south to north of Russia was very slow. The most ancient remains of cats found by archaeologists in the Kirovograd, Odessa and Cherkasy regions belong to the II-V centuries of a new era - just one cat for several settlements. However, the results of excavations dating back to the XNUMXthth centuries indicate the appearance of these animals in Pskov, Yaroslavl and the Baltic cities. According to scientists, only in the XNUMXthth centuries cats appeared on the territory of Staraya Ladoga and in the Middle Volga. Cats were valued in Russia even before the adoption of Christianity. So, one of the sacred animals that accompanied the god Veles, was a cat. The cat was the keeper of the hearth and a guide to the other world. With the advent of Christianity in Russia, the pagan god Veles was banned. He was replaced by the patron saint of cattle, St. Blasius, which is why the name Vaska became the most common cat nickname.

          Maybe cats are a lynx or someone else? Apparently it was not a frequent beast))) in Russia
          1. andrew42 19 March 2020 16: 42 New
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            Indeed, why did they forget about the lynx? Such a big forest "cat", and very dangerous, even for a lone hunter, not to mention women and children.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 17: 15 New
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              Lynx is not only a dangerous beast, but also quite edible. Yes, and the skin to the place!
              1. Mordvin 3 19 March 2020 20: 28 New
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                Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Lynx is not only a dangerous beast, but also quite edible.

                About 7 years ago the uncle got into a trap, he ate it.
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 20: 33 New
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                  Everything is correct Vladimir, lynx hunters are bursting, bursting!
                  Although they don’t shoot specifically for meat.
                  The most exotic beast from my menu is the badger. Although I think if I had been warned, I thought twice about dragging a piece of meat into my mouth or not.
                  Regards, Vlad!
            2. Molot1979 20 March 2020 03: 50 New
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              Maybe because lynxes in our forests are not found in commercial quantities in order to hunt them often and for food?
          2. Sergey Sfiedu 19 March 2020 19: 55 New
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            "However, the results of excavations dating back to the 6th-7th centuries already indicate the appearance of these animals in Pskov, Yaroslavl" - did Pskov and Yaroslavl exist in the XNUMXthth centuries? Yes, here Fomenko steers!
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 20: 35 New
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              Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
              "However, the results of excavations dating back to the 6th-7th centuries already indicate the appearance of these animals in Pskov, Yaroslavl" - did Pskov and Yaroslavl exist in the XNUMXthth centuries? Yes, here Fomenko steers!

              Here the geo-position of archaeological finds is apparently indicated, and not the cities themselves.
              1. Sergey Sfiedu 21 March 2020 02: 09 New
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                But if cat bones were found in the city, there is every reason to believe that it is a domestic cat, and if it’s just in the territory of the future city, then it’s most likely wild, and there is no sensation in this. Wild cats in the territory of Ancient Russia were found. As far as I remember, distinguishing between the bones of a wild cat and a home cat is very problematic.
      2. Korsar4 19 March 2020 11: 08 New
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        Maybe this is a manifestation of "obstinacy, willfulness, lack of power"?
      3. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 11: 17 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Well, about cats, apparently they are crazy !!!

        And that cats are not meat? smile
        I think that the ancestors did not have any prejudice against these cute animals and they loved them no less than the rest of the little animals. If you managed to catch. smile
        1. Catfish 19 March 2020 18: 28 New
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          Yeah:
          - I do not like cats!
          - You just do not know how to cook them ... request
      4. Mihaylov 19 March 2020 11: 26 New
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        Good afternoon, it is quite possible that they will not breach. Not so long ago I watched the program something from the "my planet" cycle and it appears in European forests (including in Russia) wild forest cats have lived and are now living, and they do not look much different from ordinary domestic fluffy cats, so in the face and you will not say. This was a discovery for me, and then I somehow saw a list of medieval hunting trophies: forest cats - there are listed. It is unlikely that of course they were somehow massively consumed as food, but the times are harsh and "whatever the mote is a vitamin."
        1. Pane Kohanku 19 March 2020 11: 38 New
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          "Whatever the mote is Vitamin."

          Sergey, I’ll add - and a hat! wink
          1. Mihaylov 19 March 2020 11: 46 New
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            As for the hat, Nikolai is not sure: when we got the cat, my wife immediately bought some book on the education of cats, which for some reason began with the phrase: "cat skins do not have commercial value." I thought ...
            1. kalibr 19 March 2020 11: 52 New
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              Remember Gogol ... "Overcoat" ...
              1. Pane Kohanku 19 March 2020 11: 55 New
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                Remember Gogol ... "Overcoat" ...

                I won’t tell you about the seals, but the shakos and helmets at the turn of the 18-19 centuries completely turned their backs on dog fur. hi
                1. Fishery 19 March 2020 12: 50 New
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                  a friend ordered a jacket from China a couple of years ago))))) there was cat fur on the hood)))
                  1. Pane Kohanku 19 March 2020 12: 57 New
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                    a friend ordered a jacket from China a couple of years ago))))) there was cat fur on the hood)))

                    yeah, and the label of the local "lacoste" - "Gennady" drinks joke.

                    tell her not to order now. And then you never know ... do Chinese flayers wash their hands! what
                  2. Olgovich 19 March 2020 15: 41 New
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                    Quote: Tonya
                    a friend ordered a jacket from China a couple of years ago))))) was on the hood cat fur)))

                    I have a jacket with fish fur yes
              2. Mihaylov 19 March 2020 12: 10 New
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                You can still recall Sharikov: "we will do protein for a work loan for polta"
            2. Pane Kohanku 19 March 2020 11: 53 New
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              As for the hat, Nikolai is not sure: when we got the cat, my wife immediately bought some book on the education of cats, which for some reason began with the phrase: "cat skins do not have commercial value." I thought ...

              This is a special untruthful phrase so that no one thinks to earn money on seals! wink
              1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 12: 06 New
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                Quote: Pan Kohanku
                so that no one thinks making money on seals!

                Filipp Filippovich was silent during the whole period of violence against Sharikov. Somehow, it was a pity that he cringed at the lintel and bit his fingernail, dropping his eyes to the floor. Then he suddenly raised them to Sharikov and asked, deafly and automatically:
                “What are you doing with these ... dead cats?”
                “They will go to polts,” Sharikov answered, “of which protein will be made for work credit.”

                smile
    2. Fishery 19 March 2020 12: 49 New
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      Trichinosis is probably rampant)
    3. Caretaker 19 March 2020 19: 14 New
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      Quote: Korsar4
      An interesting selection of animals for hunting: "foxes, forest cats and wild boars." For me - not quite ordinary.

      Boars to a fire or to a cauldron, and foxes and cats to fur.
      There is not much meat in foxes and cats, the “sheepskin” dressing is not worth it.

      It is possible that this is an emphasis on "barbarism", they say they eat everything.
      1. Korsar4 19 March 2020 19: 41 New
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        If the fur - then there would be no questions. The quote says "eating."
        And this is not a boar, and not a deer.
        Although, of course, there could be waste-free production.
        1. Caretaker 19 March 2020 20: 16 New
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          Quote: Korsar4
          If the fur - then there would be no questions. The quote says "eating."
          And this is not a boar, and not a deer.
          Although, of course, there could be waste-free production.

          It is unlikely that the meat of predators as before is now not too favored.
          1. Korsar4 19 March 2020 20: 25 New
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            Right.
            The bear has sweet meat, probably due to its omnivorous nature.
            Here again the question is - how hungry it was.
            1. Caretaker 19 March 2020 20: 35 New
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              Quote: Korsar4
              Here again the question is - how hungry it was.

              Medvezhatin did not try.

              If the boar was overwhelmed, then not too hungry.
              1. Mordvin 3 19 March 2020 20: 55 New
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                Quote: Caretaker
                If the boar was overwhelmed, then not too hungry.

                Wild boars and other piggies are also omnivorous.
  3. Gardamir 19 March 2020 08: 16 New
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    I do not criticize at all, but the heading “as it really is” as if the author had traveled by a time machine and specified how it was.
    While reading, I suddenly remembered that in fact, even in the territory of modern Germany, the Slavs live. In the days of ancient Rome, the Slavic tribes were probably no less than Germanic.
    1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 08: 53 New
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      Dear Midshipman,
      the name of course - to attract - in fact, it was necessary to call "Tribal militia 5-8 centuries." wink
      I will write about the further fate of the Slavs in the territory of modern Germany and in the West later, after 3-4 articles, after covering tactics and weapons of this period: somehow, step by step.
      hi
      1. Gardamir 19 March 2020 08: 59 New
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        Well, attracted wink.
        No seriously, I was 20 years old when I came across a book about Luga Serbs. I was very surprised. Then the Internet appeared, but ... Since you will write about the Western Slavs, after all, nothing is known of the Slavs of Rome. But those Slavs most likely shared the land with the ancient Germans.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 10: 05 New
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          If you dig seriously, at a certain stage, the Germans, Slavs and the Balts entered into a single tribal union and spoke the same language!
          1. Gardamir 19 March 2020 10: 24 New
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            Most likely it was. We judge the past based on today's realities.
          2. Sergey Sfiedu 21 March 2020 02: 31 New
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            "If you dig seriously, then at a certain stage, the Germans, Slavs and Balts entered into a single tribal union and spoke the same language!" - all people once spoke the same language. The Germans separated from a certain East European Indo-European community much earlier than the Baltic Slavic community split into the Baltic and Slavic.
    2. Sergey Sfiedu 21 March 2020 02: 17 New
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      "In the days of ancient Rome, Slavic tribes probably were no less than Germanic." There is a sea of ​​information about Germanic tribes during the times of Ancient Rome, and zero about Slavic tribes. The Wends are mentioned as a kind of extremely wild tribe living somewhere east of the Germans, and specifically the Slavs - no. So we can only guess about the number, number and differences of Slavic tribes in those days, and archeology does not help us here - in fact, the first authentically Slavic culture appears only in the XNUMXth century. The time of the Slavs came with the era of VPN.
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  5. kalibr 19 March 2020 09: 14 New
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    I always said that in order to write such articles, you need to know a lot of things, and to collect and think over materials for years. It’s not for you to “brand the West” to stigmatize ... Well, after all, I also read all this, was interested in my time ... but it didn’t occur to me to write this. Therefore ... my applause Edward !!!
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 10: 08 New
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      I join every word of Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      I especially appreciated the drawing of Edward, although it is a pity that he did not dare to draw a shield. On the other hand, as reliable as possible according to sources.
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. Pane Kohanku 19 March 2020 11: 31 New
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        Regards, Vlad!

        Vladislav, I’ll stick sideways to your comment here, okay? wink
        I read the article carefully. I will say this. The author gave serious material, which sometimes you don’t think about. It’s what “shelves” some aspects of the organization without going into mysticism, fiction, and the false jungle of ethnography. (everyone understood what I mean). Carefully and cautiously approaching the issue (at the risk of making mistakes due to limited sources), he does not replace history with “beautiful pseudo-patriotic tales”, for which I bow to him! hi
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    3. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 10: 17 New
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      Vyacheslav Olegovich,
      do not dissemble, with your prompts,
      Thank you! hi
      Although true, the material was accumulated over the years)))
    4. Mavrikiy 19 March 2020 10: 40 New
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      Quote: kalibr
      I always said that in order to write such articles, you need to know a lot of things, and to collect and think over materials for years. This is not the "owners of the West" to brand you ...
      "For what, without fear of sin, the cuckoo praises the rooster? For the fact that he praises the cuckoo."
      1. kalibr 19 March 2020 11: 32 New
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        Well, it does not threaten you. Commentator reader and commentator. But it’s not up to the articles ...
  6. Slavutich 19 March 2020 09: 36 New
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    It is very interesting, especially when you read all the author’s articles on the topic, an understanding is built - how the Slavs developed!
    Thank you
  7. Undecim 19 March 2020 09: 42 New
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    I do not want to offend the author in any way, but I can not rank the illustrations as one of his strengths.
    Siege. Early Slavs of the XNUMXth century Figure (not reconstruction) of the author
    Somehow I can’t compare the three-day battle near Vogastiburg, in which the army of the Slavic state itself defeated an army of Franks and a pot-bellied uncle in a braid with two darts in his hand, howling at the moon.
    1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 10: 15 New
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      What are you, what are you
      Well, something like this, I already wrote that there are no drawings according to the early historically Slavs, from the word completely, offensively, somehow.
      So I illustrate how I can - it takes a lot of time.
      But, "pot-bellied guy" - i see so))) Well, there were no fitness clubs and sports nutrition, there wasn’t, so the uncle was well-fed. Look at the men at 40, in the village, all pot-bellied))) so I think there is some truth here.
      Best regards hi
      1. Undecim 19 March 2020 10: 26 New
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        I'm not talking about fitness. The lifestyle itself of those times is better than any fitness.
        I'm about a friend.
        drawings on the early historical Slavs no
        But there are drawings of contemporary Franks with whom they fought.
        There the view is completely different, as is the armament. How did these pot-bellied farmers with darts defeat them?
        1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 10: 45 New
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          Photos of the American marines are also awesome, but the small Vietnamese defeated them. This is a half-joke.
          Archaeological research on the material p. Radiant Crimea showed, I write from memory, 70-80% of scoliosis: that is, as a result, a "sedentary lifestyle", just kidding, the presence of a stomach: outweighed, lifestyles: working in the field. We are talking about a settlement of Goth federates or Goths and Alans, that is, a settlement of warriors, such as the majority in the VI-VII centuries. those who had just fought could be found for the most part in Byzantium.
          It seems to me that this is a modern idea that they went hiking there and looked all trendy, of course, they were not weaklings, but ... take even photos of the military, from the moment the photo appeared: young are slim, the farther, the fatter .
          And this photo is mainly military professionals who have been in the service for a long time.
          And what about the "militias". Plus a way of life: and he in the period under review - to eat up to the dump, when you succeed.
          Further, the structure of food: the main diet - cereals - a more energy-intensive product for those who work in the field than meat - "food for the office."
          Well, now depicting the franc, no one will forbid such bodybuilders, but was it like that?
          You made me think, thank you, when I am laying out the text about the siege, next week I’ll lay out the franc, do not blame him with a “belly,” too, he painted the truth about 6 years ago.
          And in the end, a warrior of antiquity:

          hi
          1. Liam 19 March 2020 10: 53 New
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            Quote: Edward Vashchenko
            70-80% of scoliosis: that is, as a result, a "sedentary lifestyle", just kidding, having a stomach: outweighed, lifestyles: working in the field.

            Scoliosis is attributed to deformations of the growth period. It begins and worsens (progresses) in youth, during enhanced body growth, for example, in puberty growth spurts. In approximately 80% of all cases, the cause of the curvature is unknown.
          2. Undecim 19 March 2020 14: 58 New
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            With the Vietnamese, the example is unsuccessful from all sides, even in the form of a half-joke.
            With scoliosis too. The cause of this pathology can be congenital spinal deformities, injuries sustained during childbirth, poliomyelitis, rickets, connective tissue diseases, metabolic disorders, cerebral palsy, osteoporosis, osteomyelitis, a sedentary lifestyle, lack of exercise, poor posture, injuries of the lower limbs and pelvic bones .
            The combat value of such a contingent, especially taken from the plow, is simply zero. Talking about some kind of “war”, having such a crowd of pot-bellied rickets from the plow as military strength, is simply not realistic, even in relation to those distant times. Something does not fit here. With this formulation of military affairs, the Slavs would have put in the pose of a Bedouin collecting truffles, all the neighbors.
            The theory of superethnos is bursting at the seams. But God bless him, with a superethnos. With such a formulation of the question, how can the Normanists be opposed?
            1. Engineer 19 March 2020 16: 14 New
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              One minute.
              Degenerative changes on the example of the Sarmatians I laid out below. There is no scoliosis, of course, but quite seriously. The combat readiness and militancy of the Sarmatians is well known.
              With this formulation of military affairs, the Slavs would have put in the pose of a Bedouin collecting truffles, all the neighbors.

              The military successes of the Slavs are VERY not inspirational. You can note the campaigns of the 6th century under Justinian and the notorious Samo in the 7th. All. Until the 8th century, the Slavs were prey much more often than a hunter, as though we were not sad from this.
              The theory of superethnos is bursting at the seams.

              She never was. As a theory, it existed in the mind of only one person.
              With such a formulation of the question, how can the Normanists oppose?

              This is the 9th century. The situation has begun to change.
              1. Undecim 19 March 2020 16: 34 New
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                Until the 8th century, the Slavs were prey much more often than a hunter, as though we were not sad from this.
                And after two hundred years, which by historical standards, quite a bit, nails are already nailed to the gates of Constantinople. Such a sudden breakthrough in the development of "militarism". Don't find the progress is too fast?
                1. Engineer 19 March 2020 16: 53 New
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                  [/ quote] nailed shields to the gates of Constantinople


                  This is a legend.

                  [quote] Don't find progress too fast?

                  The Normans are ready to answer, under the strict guidance of Herr Helga .....
                  But seriously, questions arise and I myself formulated them. But there is a combination of sources - written and archaeological. There is a set of facts that are currently undeniable - the early Slavs prey ready, Huns, Avars, Bulgarians.
                  What happens among the Slavs in the 8th-9th century is an unequivocal rise in material culture. Widespread pottery ceramics of a high level of decoration and decoration. This is a very important marker, because before that Slavic cultures were characterized by extremely primitive dishes. It turns out that productive forces are growing, there is a demand for beauty, stratification should grow, and with it centralization processes.
                  Neighbors of the Slavs are experiencing a peak of development and rapid decline
                  814 - Charles the Great dies
                  The end of the 8th century - the Wendel era in Sweden ends
                  The end of the 8th century - the Avar Kaganate
                  It turns out that by the 9th century everything is ready for the Slavs to try to enter the scene again, this time opening the door with their foot.
                  This is my personal explanation, I can not say that I am completely satisfied with it. BUT somehow.
                  1. Undecim 19 March 2020 17: 40 New
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                    I would note one more point that the author did not indicate in any way.
                    The XNUMXth century completes the period of pre-Slavic history. The settlement of Slavs in Europe ends, interaction and metalization with other ethnic groups violated the general Slavic processes and laid the foundations for the formation of individual Slavic languages ​​and ethnic groups, and in the XNUMXth century, each of these emerging ethnic groups, logically, already had its own “factors - progressors” and its own dynamics this very progress, including in terms of militarism.
                    1. Engineer 19 March 2020 19: 18 New
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                      The settlement of Slavs in Europe ends, interaction and metalization with other ethnic groups violated the general Slavic processes and laid the foundations for the formation of individual Slavic languages ​​and ethnic groups, and in the XNUMXth century, each of these emerging ethnic groups, logically, already had its own “factors - progressors” and its own dynamics this very progress, including in terms of militarism.

                      It sounds very nice, but here are the details ....
                      It seems to be like the Slavs generally they really occupy a certain stable range, but inside it everything is very unstable so that it can be said that local factors are now taking effect. Extensive migrations continue to occur within the range and at the borders.
                      The 8th century is the expansion of the Luka-Raikovec culture, which continued into the 9th century.
                      The Volintsev culture competes with it from the left bank of the Dnieper, constantly penetrating the other bank.
                      Development of the east begins - the area of ​​the Vyatichi closely interacting with the Balts. That is, here external migration continues
                      This is all offhand. In reality, there are many more migrations to remember.
                      In the Volkhov region there is a mixture with the Finns.
                      That is, the metalization is still in full swing

                      violated the general Slavic processes

                      And how legitimately talks about Slavic processes at all?
                      As soon as we have stable information about the Slavs, it is Procopius the 6th century, so their division into sklavins and antes is immediately fixed and it is immediately noted that they do not get along with each other at all. And where is the guarantee that used to be different? Maybe the general Slavic processes took place (if occurred) even earlier? But when? I remind you that archeology does not give ANY culture as a candidate for the all-Slavic
      2. Liam 19 March 2020 10: 30 New
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        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        pot-bellied guy "- as I see it)

        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        Well, there were no fitness clubs and sports nutrition

        The historian (even an amateur) should know what food was then. And how much it was. And how often it was completely gone.
        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        Look at the men at 40, in the village, all pot-bellied

        There were almost no 40-year-old men then either. They were neither pot-bellied nor skinny.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 11: 17 New
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          There were almost no 40-year-old men either.

          And no one writes about what they were. Figure of speech. We discuss the appearance)))
          1. Liam 19 March 2020 11: 38 New
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            Quote: Edward Vashchenko
            We discuss the appearance)))

            You write an article about History. Take up a topic on which sources are about 0. And 99% of the arguments are based on analogies, comparisons and “logical chains.” When you imagine the then-warrior as a modern 40-year-old guy with a belly and explain your vision with a lack of sports nutrition, fitness and scoliosis, the logical chain seems more than doubtful and undermines confidence in everything else.
            The warrior of the day could not be like a pot-bellied 40-year-old, if only because teenagers and very young people fought in the range of 15-25 years, who could not be pot-bellied for biological reasons, even without touching the diet and lifestyle.
            And 70% with scoliosis only says that they died mostly at a very young age, when this disease develops. For you, this is proof of pot-belliedness. hi
            1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 12: 00 New
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              Т
              The former warrior could not at all be like a pot-bellied 40-year-old, if only because essentially teenagers and very young people fought in the range of 15-25 years.

              There are no sources where it is indicated that the army consisted of 15 year olds, where there is information - everywhere it is emphasized about mature warriors (I do not say that 40 year olds).
              Today's 40-year-olds are the then 30-year-olds.
              There is still a comparative analysis, again, look at the photos of some insurgents of the mid-nineteenth century?
              And 70% with scoliosis only say that they died mostly at a very young age, when this disease develops

              But archaeological analysis suggests something else.
              It's easy to criticize, I’m glad to eat different opinions, in the very first stasis at the VO, where I portrayed a Slav according to the description of Mauritius, I was severely criticized that this does not happen.
              It doesn’t happen when they go not according to the sources, but according to what it seems to me.


              For example, the image of the soldiers on the helmet of Agilulf (died in 615), where there are 15-year-olds (?):
              [/ Center]
              hi
              1. Liam 19 March 2020 12: 16 New
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                Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                There are no sources where it is indicated that the army consisted of 15 year olds

                It is enough to study the data on life expectancy in that period. Like the anthropological data of the skeletons of the time, you will be aware of both growth and weight. Those people were midgets compared to us.
                1. Engineer 19 March 2020 15: 18 New
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                  You initiated a very interesting discussion (I'm talking about the subject), unfortunately, your categorization prevented her from becoming constructive
                  1. Life expectancy in the early Middle Ages.
                  Usually, when people talk about life expectancy, they do not specify the median and arithmetic mean. In addition, life expectancy is very much determined by specific time and geography.
                  Specialized reviews will help us here.
                  There is an absolutely wonderful article.
                  Reconstruction of the social organization of the Late Sarmatians according to anthropological data

                  http://annales.info/sarmat/small/nav6b.htm
                  In some burial grounds (Abganerovo III and IV, Kalinovka, Kermen Tolga, etc.), men of the age of Maturus II - Senilis () make up 100%. Although young and mature men are found, they are much less common than in other ancient communities. Interestingly, fatal injuries were recorded on parts of the skeletons of young men: burial grounds of Abganerovo II, mounds 19 and 28; Gromoslavka, barrow 1; Dyuker, Kurgan 10, etc. Since the sample is dominated by the bones of old and old people and there are no child bones, the age of survival in the Late Sarmatians is much higher than in groups of other ancient peoples. In the Lower Volga series, the age of survival is 43,7 years, including children and 44,7 years, excluding. The age of death of men is slightly higher than that of women and corresponds to 46,8 years and 39 years. Unfortunately, for the Lower Don sample there are no data on age categories and the total sample as a whole. For different burial grounds, the age of survival in the Lower Don group is 21,1-31,4 years, including children and about 33 years, excluding children. The lower age indices [67] of survival and a higher percentage of children apparently reflect the specifics of the Lower Don group of Late Sarmatians. S.I. Kruz (1994) on the late Sarmatians of Taurica, average age of men 46 years; women - 41,3 years.

                  So, the average age of those buried is 44.7 years. Let me remind you that this is one of the most tragic and dangerous eras in the history of mankind - from the second half of the 3rd century AD The era of the Great Migration.
                  2. Were the people of the Early Middle Ages Lilliputians?
                  Definitely not. There is a lot of data, I will give one example
                  https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/morfologicheskie-osobennosti-sarmatskogo-naseleniya-nizhnego-povolzhya-po-dannym-osteologicheskogo-analiza
                  The Sarmatians of the Saratov Trans-Volga belong to the large Caucasian race. L. These are people of medium height with a strong physique.

                  The average body length in men is 167,7 cm. The range of variations for different authors is from 164,4 to 167,7 cm (see Table 1). The highest values ​​are obtained when calculating growth according to the formula G.F. Debec, which he recommends using in samples with different body proportions. The minimum values ​​were obtained when calculating the body length according to the formulas of K. Pearson and A. Lee. By conditional rubrication of body length according to Martin [15, p. 23], the male series we studied is characterized by growth above average.

                  3. Diseases and degenerative age-related changes
                  On late Sarmatian bones, degenerative-dystrophic changes are recorded in large numbers, according to which a high level of physical deterioration of male skeletons is well recorded. The increased frequency of leg injuries, collarbone fractures, as well as damage to the lumbar and other parts of the spinal column, sometimes with intergrowth and the formation of separate blocks, distinguishes late Sarmatians as riders from the settled foot population of the Lower Don settlements (Razhev, 1996; Buzhilova, 1998) .8) By the degree of deterioration and the development of the main joints of the body, their military specificity is diagnosed as heavily armed cataphractic warriors who, besides wearing heavy armor, were armed with a long sword, a short dagger and were long spear.

                  In general, comparing the skeletons of the Late Sarmatians with the Early and Middle Sarmatians, especially with the settled population of the Kuban region (Meota) and the Lower Don (urban population of Tanais and other settlements), it seems that their life was not easy, associated with constant stress. Due to constant and excessive physical and psycho-emotional stress, the late Sarmatians had already developed chronic fatigue syndrome by the age of 30-40. The body "tired" and was aging ahead of time. In addition to excessive loads, the syndrome of chronic fatigue and accelerated aging is stimulated by inflammatory processes that occur in the body (Khrisanfova, 1999). Of the most common inflammatory diseases, the late Sarmatians are characterized by an increased incidence of dentition lesions
                  1. Liam 19 March 2020 15: 45 New
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                    Quote: Engineer
                    prevented her from becoming constructive

                    Frankly, constructiveness kills more the creation of sects with a solidarity zone of comfort, where everything should be reduced to a mass mutual distribution of compliments to the detriment of an unbiased analysis of the topic of the article. The correct expression of a valid critical remark in a discussion is a catalyst for the discussion itself, and not an occasion for "insults."
                    On the subject of your data. A frequent case of one burial, one tribe in the same region, in a limited time period does not say anything. There are many other worships where the age of the dead is much lower. You yourself gave an example of 20 year olds.
                    The conversation was about warriors war is a matter of youth, anti-wrinkle medicine
                    When I talk about the average age of 25/30 years, this does not mean that there were no% and 40/50 year olds. Only these were already deep old people at that time (analogous to our 70/80 year old) who physically could not take part in campaigns. they were more likely to be buried “humanly” and subsequently found by archaeologists. Young people who died in war, camping, and hunting had much less chances. Such an honor was only given to “know” who, due to their social status, were better fed, worked less and were sick, and therefore lived longer and were healthier and larger than the main body for the duration the whole story
                    1. Engineer 19 March 2020 15: 56 New
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                      There are many other obsessions where the age of the dead is much lower

                      Sure, but this is the seed. The burials in the article, incidentally, analyzed dozens
                      this does not mean that there were% and 40/50 year olds. Only they were already deep old people at the time (analogous to our 70/80 year old) who physically could not take part in campaigns

                      The question of the physical form of 40-50 year olds is considered open. Having criticized the opposite point of view, you did not bring evidence of your own.
                      Such an honor was only awarded to the “know” who, due to their social status, ate better, worked less ill, and therefore lived longer and were healthier and larger than the physically main mass throughout history

                      The article considers various burials. Not only nobles.
                      This, perhaps, also explains the poverty of the Lower Volga graves. There are very few rich burials belonging to the leaders of the squads (?
                      1. Liam 19 March 2020 16: 02 New
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                        Quote: Engineer
                        Having criticized the opposite point of view, you did not bring evidence of your

                        The opposite side cited as an argument the thesis "I see this" honestly and reported both in the article and in the posts. Therefore, I did not cite any specific studies, but wrote general comments in accordance with the level of author’s argument.
                      2. Fishery 19 March 2020 20: 05 New
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                        for professional athletes, by the age of 40, real problems with different groups of joints is almost the norm), in principle, I very much agree with the studies
                  2. Liam 19 March 2020 15: 54 New
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                    Quote: Engineer
                    Were the people of the Early Middle Ages Lilliputians?

                    I wrote, compared with us (although in fact people were smaller than 167 cm. This is again a rather special case)
                    We average 15–20 cm higher than our ancestors. It seems a bit. But put a 2-meter-long volleyball player (basketball player) who is on average 15/20 cm higher than the current “norm” - and get a Liliput effect. Go to a volleyball or basketball game. Just the figures do not convey all the obvious difference. And height and weight go together in direct proportion
                    1. Engineer 19 March 2020 16: 22 New
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                      People's growth ranged from era to era. From region to region.
                      The height of modern Russian men is -177 cm. Late Antique Sarmatians are 167. There is no fundamental difference. There are many such examples. Somewhere the difference will be stronger somewhere weaker.
                      The physical form of people in former times is generally a separate extremely interesting topic. Many tens of thousands of people passed through the Roman legions at a time. The standard daily crossing is 16-20 km. Further mandatory work on the camp, guard duty. The mass of the shield is 10 kg, not to mention the rest of the equipment. They served in the legions formally for 20 years. From the epitaphs it is known that they served really 30 years. 40-year-olds and older veterans were often mobilized during a breakthrough of the limes and almost always with a good result. This is some kind of massive Ubernshchas steeper than 80% of modern specials
                      1. Liam 19 March 2020 17: 03 New
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                        The growth of people ranged not only from era to era, but also from region to region. Excavations of the same graves of the Longbards and their measurements yielded about 20 subtypes depending on anthropological differences. Most fluctuate around 162/165 cm.
                        All the chronicles of that period tell about the giant growth of the Vikings in the eyes of continental Europeans and Arabs. Excavations of thousands of Viking graves show that their average height was in the region of 168/170 cm. What height and physical complex should a person have to make a 170 cm man seem to him a giant?
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The growth of modern Russian men is -177 cm. Late Antique Sarmatians are 167.

                        The growth of modern Chinese is about 165/167. If you think that the crowd of average Russians will be lost and will be invisible in the crowd of average Chinese ...

                        Quote: Engineer
                        Standard daily crossing - 16-20 km

                        It’s 3/4 hours with a turtle speed of 5 km / h. And who withstood such rhythms for 2/3 days in a row made up legends as about Caesar. Or Suvorov)
                        Quote: Engineer
                        The mass of the shield is 10 kg, not to mention the rest of the equipment

                        The weight of the legionnaire’s equipment is about 20 kg. It’s a pity they just didn’t carry all this joy on the march
                        Quote: Engineer
                        They served in the legions formally for 20 years.

                        90% of this service is peacetime and sentries in 3 days at the gates of the city.
                        And do not compare the living conditions of a legionnaire and a resident of a nomadic tribe. It’s about how to compare a conditional modern European and a pygmy from central Africa. There are slight differences in their living conditions) .Besides, the legionnaires recruited the most tall and physically powerful, they were trained professional soldiers. And tribal soldiers are people from the plow
                      2. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 17: 13 New
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                        All the chronicles of that period tell about the giant growth of the Vikings in the eyes of continental Europeans and Arabs.

                        There is nothing like this in the Chronicles, can I link? By reference, I mean the name "chronicle."
                        There are descriptions of some great people in the sagas, but in the Chronicles, which ones?
                      3. Liam 19 March 2020 18: 08 New
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                        ibn Fadlan as an example
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                      5. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 20: 49 New
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                        YOU wrote about all the Chronicles, whether harm would refer, as it seems to me.
                        Ibn Faldan, I write from memory, do not get to the library, wrote about the Rus (not all historians recognize the Vikings in them!): And I did not see people with more perfect bodies than them, they are like palm trees, slim, etc.
                        All the same, Ibn Dast writes about the growth of Rusov, but again Rusov - and not the Vikings, is a very controversial historiography (I do not express my opinion on the problem now)
                        We can argue endlessly, but let's rely on sources.
                        hi
                      6. Liam 19 March 2020 20: 58 New
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                        Chronicles in my understanding are documents of that era that concerned this argument.
                        As for whom the Arab meant by Rusi, you are a historian. He described their customs and customs in sufficient detail there.
                2. Engineer 19 March 2020 17: 19 New
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                  People's growth ranged from era to era. From region to region.

                  Somehow awkward
                  The growth of people ranged not only from era to era but also from region to region

                  All the chronicles of that period tell about the giant growth of the Vikings in the eyes of continental Europeans and Arabs.

                  fear has big eyes
                  https://arthoron.livejournal.com/160032.html
                  British men of the era of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms -173 cm
                  It’s a pity they just didn’t carry all this joy on themselves on marches.

                  This is contrary to what I read at the same Conolly
                  90% of this service is peacetime and sentries in 3 days at the gates of the city.

                  No. Just read Tacitus. Or remember if you have already read.
                  And do not compare the living conditions of a legionnaire and a resident of a nomadic tribe.

                  Here is a complete plug and stupor. Legionnaire is an analogue of the European? Sarmatians are pygmies? Is this humor ??
                3. Operator 19 March 2020 17: 37 New
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                  Centurion Krysoboy, a German by birth, was superior in height to the head of his fellow legionnaires from the Apennine Peninsula - Bulgakov (C).

                  When a Roman legionnaire saw for the first time a Slavic militia pumped up in a logging site and a first-class sturgeon with a 180-cm pair with a horn in one hand, an ax in the other and a scar from a bear’s claws along the whole face - a 160-cm feeble Mediterranean resident crap on one spot (good that did not wear ports) laughing
                4. Engineer 19 March 2020 18: 27 New
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                  It remains only to recall where and under what circumstances they met.
                5. Operator 19 March 2020 18: 45 New
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                  Byzantium was officially called the Roman Empire (without the East prefix), Constantinople - New Rome, the inhabitants of the city - Romans, military units - legions, the invasion of the Dnieper Antes on the Byzantine province of Achaia (Peloponnese peninsula) occurred in the early 7th century with the formation of the Slavic principality on the territory of the former Sparta. Morea, which lasted several centuries.
                6. Engineer 19 March 2020 18: 52 New
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                  This is known, but where did such colorful details come from about the dropping calories of the romei?
                7. Operator 19 March 2020 20: 23 New
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                  From the annals of the sea, of course:
                  anty - something chilly on Shipka in the winter in the Rhodope Mountains;
                  Romei - take what they give;
                  antes - we saw your Thrace in a tomb, we needing to Achaea will bow to the graves of our brothers in paganism to Tsar Leonid and three hundred Spartans, and at the same time to warm themselves on the Adriatic Sea, the spouses hummed all their ears;
                  Romei - only through our troupe;
                  antes - mind you, we didn’t say that (they beat the Romans in the wort);
                  Romei (dropping waste products to the earth) - they realized the mistake, here is Sparta all inclusive forever laughing
                8. Engineer 19 March 2020 20: 27 New
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                  BUT...
                  Secret Knowledge Secret anal stories hid by gay masters in the Vatican. Heard.
      3. Liam 19 March 2020 18: 06 New
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        Quote: Engineer
        Somehow awkward

        I'm afraid that you are not familiar with the history of the longbards and their excavations
        Quote: Engineer
        https://arthoron.livejournal.com/160032.html

        I must say that the inhabitants of southern Europe and in the early Middle Ages were lower than modern people. With an abundance of pastures and a rare population The North (especially Britain and Scandinavia) has always occupied a privileged position
        You don’t seem to be reading your own sources very carefully. Just like Tacitus and others about legionnaires. You would know about columns of draft mules accompanying legions on campaigns, and about the difference between equipment on marches and advancement to the battlefield. that during the “training” (which was much tougher than the real conditions), the length of the daytime crossing was 5,5 km ((Polibio, X, 20.2-4.)
        They would also know about the life of the legionnaires.
        About the difference between the living conditions of a Roman citizen and the nomadic tribes of that period, if you don’t know, then really
        Quote: Engineer
        plug and stupor
      4. Engineer 19 March 2020 18: 44 New
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        I'm afraid that you are not familiar with the history of the longbards and their excavations

        Very little. But I know well that they are Langobards
        You don't seem to read your own sources very carefully

        I have a feeling that you don’t read at all.
        I write "growth depends on era and region"
        You are in response to "growth depends not only on the era but also on the region"
        Delightfully
        .
        Otherwise, they would know about the columns of draft mules accompanying legions on campaigns, and about the difference between equipment on marches and advancement onto the battlefield

        About draft mules and what exactly they transported is well known. It was a trench tool and camp equipment mainly. And so the legionnaire even dragged a hand mill for grinding grain on himself.
        Also there they would have learned that during the "training" (which was much tougher than the real conditions), the length of the daytime crossing was 5,5 km ((Polibio, X, 20.2-4.)

        I clearly know that Polybius described the police police militia which at that time was the Roman army. She became professional only with Guy Maria. Therefore, the instructions of Polybius do not speak of anything in relation to a later era.
        They would also know about the life of the legionnaires.

        Oh, that aplomb ...
        20 years. 16 years for the Parthian legions. This is at the beginning of the era of principle. Next 25 years.
      5. Liam 19 March 2020 19: 04 New
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        Quote: Engineer
        they are langobards

        ))).
        Longobardi
        Enciclopedia on line


        Longobardi (o Langobardi) Popolazione germanica che appare nelle fonti scritte nel 5 ° sec., Quando si stanziò nel Meclemburgo (a E dell'attuale

        I repeat. You know little about them)
        Quote: Engineer
        I write

        Quote: Engineer
        You in response

        I just quoted you “by hand” and not copy-paste. The point of my remark was that numerous excavations of the graves of longbards, even in a small territory of northern Italy, gave 20 subtypes with different anthropological data. And you are trying to draw global conclusions about the Sarmatians on the basis of much less learned sources.
        As you see, nothing criminal. But the reaction is by no means constructive and will be worse than my categorization)
        Quote: Engineer
        . And so the legionnaire even dragged a hand mill for grinding grain

        Where did he drag her on himself with the rest of the belongings? To battle? Grind enemies into grits?).
        To include common sense is sometimes useful
        Quote: Engineer
        Oh, that aplomb
      6. Engineer 19 March 2020 20: 37 New
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        Longobardi
        Enciclopedia on line

        Nein. Sie sind langobarden
        Actually, we are on a Russian-language resource and is the generally accepted RUSSIAN spelling.
        And you are trying to draw global conclusions about the Sarmatians based on much less studied sources.

        My only conclusion is that with the existing variety of eras and populations, any statements about small growth are meaningless without a specific reference to time and region.
        Where did he drag her on himself with the rest of the belongings? To battle? Grind enemies into grits?)

        Of course. He didn’t just crush the enemies, but threw them directly in the forehead after the pilum. Therefore, the Roman legions defeated everyone.
        Here is the source
        Then they set off and move silently, in orderly order. Everyone remains in line, as in battle. Marines are protected by shells and helmets and carry sharp weapons on both sides. The sword on the left side is much longer than the sword hanging on the right and having only one span in length. The selective infantry unit surrounding the commander’s person wears spears and round shields; the rest of the infantry — peaks and oblong shields, saws and baskets, shovels and axes, and, in addition, belts, sickles {388}, chains, and for three days of provisions; thus, foot soldiers carry almost as much weight as pack animals.

        http://militera.lib.ru/h/flavius/03.html
      7. Liam 19 March 2020 20: 45 New
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        Quote: Engineer
        Actually, we are on a Russian-language resource and there is a generally accepted RUSSIAN spelling

        Serious argument. Soon we will consider commas. For your information, I am not Russian and can not be aware of all the subtleties of the Russian language.
        In any case, for true connoisseurs of purity of language, how do you propose to look into the dictionary.
        ESBE / Longobards

        <ESBE

        Longbards
        Encyclopedic dictionary Brockhaus and Efron
        Longolius, Christophe →
        Brockhaus Lexikon.jpg Dictionary: Ledier - Loparev. Source: T. XVIIa (1896): Ledye - Loparev, p. 947 (scan)
        Wikipedia: Wikipedia-logo.png Wikipedia


        Longobards - see Longobards
        .
        Both versions of the name are correct. What was there about the construct and aplomb?)
        Regarding the equipment of the Roman legionnaires, he replied to another user below.
      8. Engineer 19 March 2020 20: 55 New
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        For your information, I am not Russian and can not be aware of all the subtleties of the Russian language.

        Ok, then no complaints on my part. I didn’t even suspect
      9. Liam 19 March 2020 21: 26 New
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        Regarding the equipment of the legionnaires. If you leave aside the ping pong. For 800 years it has undergone more than one change. The description on which you emphasize refers to the era of reforms of Guy Maria. He loaded the soldiers unnecessarily for the purpose of greater autonomy, but achieved the opposite effect-legions completely lost mobility for which they received the nickname Mula Maria.
        They quickly departed from this practice, or rather returned to the previous practice of Scipio, Caesar, etc.
        Titus Flavius ​​Iosephus in De bello Iudaico has more details about the equipment of the legions and their logistics.
        The Roman legion on the campaign was not very different from other armies before and after it — hundreds of mules, wagons, sappers, engineers, blacksmiths, servants, Markitans, merchants, etc., etc.
      10. Engineer 19 March 2020 21: 38 New
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        the legions lost all mobility for which they received the nickname Mula Maria.

        The legionnaires were called Maria Mules for their equipment load. But the thesis that the legions have lost mobility is something new.
        From this practice they quickly drove away, or rather returned to the previous practice-Scipio, Caesar and so on.

        Return to this practice could not, in principle, Caesar was after Maria.
        ETitus Flavius ​​Iosephus in De bello Iudaico has more details about the equipment of the legions and their logistics.

        Again, about who reads and who does not. I quoted above precisely this work.
        The Roman legion on the campaign was not very different from other armies before and after it — hundreds of mules, wagons, sappers, engineers, blacksmiths, Markitan women servants, merchants, etc., etc.

        It is doubtless, but the question of what the legionnaires bore you persistently bypass.
  8. Mihaylov 19 March 2020 17: 35 New
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    It’s a pity they just didn’t carry all this joy on themselves on marches.

    As far as I remember, just the legionnaires carried all the equipment on the march themselves. It was the Greeks who were all dragged by slaves or driven by donkeys.
  9. Liam 19 March 2020 18: 16 New
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    You don't remember well. Besides the legionnaire’s own weapons, there were utensils, tents, digging tools that were used to dig the same camps at stops, etc. If you think that they carried all this on themselves, it’s your business. They were in combat gear only when they advanced on the battlefield or when passing through any areas where attacks were expected, ambushes, etc. There were naturally no dozens of kilometers in such conditions. Despite the fact that they were professional military men with constant training. About pot-bellied plowmen from tribal communities and say nothing
  10. Mihaylov 19 March 2020 19: 29 New
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    If you think that all this they carried on themselves, your business

    I'm afraid not only mine, let me quote in this case:
    "The size of the equipment of the Roman legionnaire was especially striking to the Greek authors. According to Polybius, to carry stakes for a shaft, as well as the Roman legionnaires, is a thing completely unthinkable according to Greek ideas. For Joseph Flavius, a Roman warrior was not much different from a loaded one mule. " Makhlyuk A.V. Soldiers of the Roman Army St. Petersburg 2006, p. 120
  11. Liam 19 March 2020 19: 39 New
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    Quote: Mihaylov
    quote

    Than 100 times to quote is better to see once
    http://www.gruppostoricoromano.it/zaino-tattico/
  12. Mihaylov 19 March 2020 20: 08 New
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    Quote: Liam
    Than 100 times to quote is better to see once

    I didn’t understand how fashionable it is to speak from a word now. What did you want to show me? "furka", so I saw her, or this strange site? sites about the Roman army now - the sea.
    Give links to works and sources.
  13. Liam 19 March 2020 20: 31 New
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    Quote: Mihaylov
    Did not understand you

    It’s not difficult to understand me. According to these statements, the legionnaire wore everything.
    A man is about 160 cm tall and weighs about 60 kg.
    In one hand, he has a shield in the other, a “furka.” He is dressed in combat “armor” with a metal helmet. On the thigh, a sword, somehow carries a spear. In addition, he has fastened and still carries tent stakes, part of a tent that was made of 50/60 goat skins, a portable mill, a shovel, supplies of food, water and I don’t know what else, depends on the imagination of experts. This whole thing draws at least 40/50 kg. That is about how much the legionnaire himself weighs. With all this good, he strides under the sun and the heat in the ranks of km 20 and is always fresh and awake to meet the enemy in battle. In the evening, he still digs trenches around the camp and builds a front garden that would again be on the road in the morning.
    You are trying to convince me that it was so. I can answer that my weight is about 85 kg. And with a similar weight on myself, I’m not sure what I’ll do 100 meters even though I’ve never been a dead guy. How many meters will you make with your weight?
    What quotes do you need to refute this picture? What quotes refuting the stories of the Greeks about the millionth army of Persians at Thermopyles have?
    In addition to knowledge and common sense)
  14. Mihaylov 19 March 2020 21: 17 New
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    The Roman legionnaire did not carry all this on himself, not because there were no donkeys or slaves in the Roman army, of course, there were convoys and army slaves. This was the concept of the Roman army: labor and sweat. The legionnaire entered the service, underwent appropriate training, recruits trained daily 2 times a day, veterans - one. There were always units ready for battle on the march, reconnaissance worked, so it was difficult to take the Legion by surprise (there were certainly punctures). It is hardly possible to say exactly how many kilograms the calculation was, but - decently, this is what the sources say. An ordinary person is unlikely to go far with this, but a person with the appropriate army training, I think, can cope quite well, as the legionnaires did, but not just like that, but after quite a long preparation.
  15. Liam 19 March 2020 21: 38 New
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    The Roman legions have undergone more than one reform in their 800/900 years, including logistics. The description with stakes and baskets refers to the period of Guy Maria who loaded the soldiers with everything necessary and unnecessary. As a result, the legions lost mobility and were nicknamed Maria Mulami. Reform quickly turned and unloaded the soldiers from unnecessary. And in any case, the fully equipped legionnaire acted only in a combat situation on the territory of the enemy and not during ordinary marches.
    As for the legionnaire’s training, I completely agree. Therefore, it makes no sense to compare the tribal militia with them. Many times the legionnaires dragged a lot of things and they could. The cheese boron actually began because of this
  16. Liam 19 March 2020 21: 47 New
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    Quote: Mihaylov
    There were always units ready for battle on the march

    On the march, the legions used the so-called agmen quadratum or later agmen tripartitum.
    If briefly, the soldiers walked lightly ready for battle and the wagons mixed with camp columns under their protection.
  17. cat Rusich 20 March 2020 00: 43 New
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    A nomad "wanders" on a horse, a camel, a reindeer team ... (Mongols, Bedouins, Chukchi) - a legionnaire "wanders" from Rome to any point of the Empire on his own legs (where there is a possibility to be taken by ship, but how many times so It was ?). When the legionnaire is not in battle - the legionnaire prepares for battle, the centurion will not allow “swimming in fat”. A pygmy from central Africa can come to the EU (for example, Germany), claim that he (a pygmy) is a refugee - and the “refugee” will be fed and watered ... Who lives in the EU well?
  • Liam 19 March 2020 12: 31 New
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    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
    It's easy to criticize

    This is a common stamp. To criticize the case, you need knowledge. In your article, there are a lot of controversial points. This is to say the least. There you can argue and everyone will remain in their own opinion. And pot-belliedness is an outright blunder, therefore criticism.
    Criticizing is easy. Do not recognize blunders is even easier) hi
  • cat Rusich 20 March 2020 00: 26 New
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    Ilya Muromets got up from the furnace and began military service at the age of 33 (we believe epics). Let us recall the triarii legionaries of Rome 40-45 years old, the principles - legionnaires of Rome 30-40 years, the service life in the legion of Rome reached 26 years - then the demobilization and the status of a veteran. "Youngsters" quickly perishes in the war - there is no practical experience in battles and camp life. I read in a book, I already forgot which book. In Russia, a man under 30 was considered a young man ...
  • kalibr 19 March 2020 11: 42 New
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    Quote: Liam
    The historian (even an amateur) must know what food was then. And how much it was.

    Found the burial of the Lower Paleolithic. It contains the remains of a man, pants, a shirt ... and 10000 drilled bone beads. That is, there was time to drill, yes, and not just with a spear to run after a mammoth. There are - and many drawings on the walls of caves, figures made of bone, wood, amber, stone ... And this is the Stone Age. And there was free time. So what about a later time?
    The records of immigrants in the USA of the 17-18th century are preserved. about how children (!) with sticks were sent to hunt turkeys. And they sat on the branches and ... watched the children kill them. Do not fly away! In one of our chronicles hunger is described: "People travel with honey of wild bees!" Hunger!!! At that time, nature was abundant. Only the lazy starved or could not get his own food. Europeans noted how bad the Iroquois have bows ... Children’s right ... But they were better and unnecessary. It was necessary to shoot ten steps. So there were enough thick ones. Yes, a divorce was provided for by someone ... burgundy or longobard ... if the husband got fat so that he can not ... with the woman ... And we had the same thing! It is now empty and hungry in the forests.
    1. Liam 19 March 2020 12: 08 New
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      Quote: kalibr
      10000 drilled bone beads. That is, there was time to drill, yes, and not just with a spear to run after a mammoth. There are - and many drawings on the walls of caves, figures made of bone, wood, amber, stone ...

      There is of course. But to argue that men were engaged in this, a rather bold assumption. Mostly this was the work of women. They led a more "settled" lifestyle and they had time for these classes. And the man fed his legs. And almost every day, refrigerators it wasn’t)
      Life was then short by today's standards, a period of 25-30 years (who is lucky) associated with a chronic half-starved condition, a bunch of diseases from which there was no salvation, meat of wild animals full of all kinds of parasites and viruses, terrible unsanitary conditions and related ailments like chronic diarrhea, dysentery and intestinal tract full of various parasites, chronic dental problems, etc. By the age of 30, the man at that time was a ruin in physical terms. Women, by the way, are also welcome. Mostly because they were constantly pregnant from 12-13 years old.
      1. kalibr 19 March 2020 12: 35 New
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        Quote: Liam
        associated with a chronic half-starved state

        Who told you that? Why did I write so much to you before this? Do not ... trample on your feet ... you need to read everything. Carefully.
        1. Liam 19 March 2020 12: 55 New
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          Quote: kalibr
          Who told you that

          Ancestral Spirits, Archaeologists, Anthropologists, Historians, Common Sense and the Naked and Afraid Program
          1. kalibr 19 March 2020 13: 03 New
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            They tell me something else. And if they tell you about the half-starved existence of our ancestors ... send them ... away. Shit, female dogs!
            1. Liam 19 March 2020 13: 19 New
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              Quote: kalibr
              They tell me something else

              They tell me that hunger was a massive and constant companion of mankind up to 100-150 years ago. Although in the last 2000 years mankind has made a cosmic breakthrough in lifestyle and ways of obtaining food. He (hunger) is the main motive why people left the primitive image life to civilization, primarily that would not depend on the good nature of pheasants and turkeys on the branches.
              1. kalibr 19 March 2020 13: 34 New
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                So you can’t look at this primitively. This is a very simplistic view of things. In Africa, they find hills from the broken shells of the barley that fed homo habilis. Is it hunger? The prairie Indians killed 10 bison for one hunt each and many only took that skins, tongue and brains ... Is this hunger? Miklouho-Maclay lived with the Papuans and ... described how they ate. Pierre Pfeffer lived with dyaks and punans in Borneo ... and saw the carcasses of wild boars thrown into the river, cutting off the fat. Is it hunger? The peasants of medieval France, under pain of death, were forbidden to hunt with a gyrfalcon, a kite ... but they could hunt with ... kestrel and affection. And they got gophers and sleepyheads, which they ate ... in honey! Semenov-Tyanshansky, traveling around Russia, noticed that Russian peasants (1898-90) do not eat hares, leaving them about the “Mordovian need”, do not eat roosters, but Mordovians eat meat more often than their Russian neighbor, they cook from cabbage, young a hawk, and even eats a “calf’s house” with porridge ... and from a hare makes delicious pies “numryonok spice”. Well, starving ... horror! And hunger ... yes it happened, but not everywhere, not always and quite rarely. And just in the twentieth century, hunger is a mass phenomenon. Famine in the USSR in 20,30 and 47 years. Famine in India, famine in Weimar Germany, famine in China and Korea, famine in Ireland - this was famine.
                1. Liam 19 March 2020 13: 41 New
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                  Quote: kalibr
                  So primitive to watch

                  Quote: kalibr
                  hills from broken shells

                  In your opinion, this is gourmet in a French restaurant, as I understand it
                  Quote: kalibr
                  carcasses of wild boars were thrown into the river, cutting off lard. Is it hunger?

                  But it was necessary in the refrigerator)
                  The problem was that it was thick today (and we throw out the carcasses because the stomach is full and tomorrow it will be rotten), and tomorrow it will be empty.
                  What was the life expectancy of the prairie Indians and other Papuans?
                2. kalibr 19 March 2020 15: 33 New
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                  Quote: Liam
                  In your opinion, this is gourmet in a French restaurant, as I understand it
                  Quote: kalibr
                  carcasses of wild boars were thrown into the river, cutting off lard. Is it hunger?

                  But it was necessary in the refrigerator)
                  The problem was that it was thick today (and we throw out the carcasses because the stomach is full and tomorrow it will be rotten), and tomorrow it will be empty.
                  What was the life expectancy of the prairie Indians and other Papuans?

                  I see you from those who would only argue. And write about common sense. Alas!
                  First - shells are not gourmet - this is satiety! And I ate them just in a French restaurant. And I know that to eat, you need to eat a lot!
                  I wrote to someone - "cutting fat"? They reheated it and filled containers of bamboo and even ... pies! Boats are, if that. And they sold to the Chinese ... and ate boiled rice and vegetables. Watering this fat! Do not judge by yourself even primitive people. They were many smarter people today! By the way, the book of Pierre Pfeffer is on the Internet, called "Bivouacs on Borneo." The punans were worse off. They lived only by hunting. And the Dayaks had barns to the top full of rice! They made vodka out of it! And there is about life expectancy ... under a hundred years, many lived like this. For example, the leader of Lohong Apui. And the Indians - 80-90 years old, not all, of course, but there were such. And about the Papuans - there are Maclay's memories. Also on the Internet. In a word, “guys who like to argue,” first you need to read, expand, so to speak, the horizons of knowledge, and then write here.
                3. Liam 19 March 2020 16: 27 New
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                  It would be nice for the Nepatsans to recover from conceit and think how much the realities of the French restaurant of the 20th century and the stories of travelers of the end of the 19th century correspond to the realities of the Neolithic. Otherwise, the nonsense run the risk of getting into such pearls
                  And just in the twentieth century, hunger is a mass phenomenon.
              2. Operator 19 March 2020 16: 26 New
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                The overwhelming majority of villages of the Eastern Slavs were located along the banks of the rivers, which were transport communications in summer and winter (after ice), as well as hunting grounds.

                In all European rivers of the Azov-Black Sea, Caspian and Mediterranean basins, without exception, a thousand years ago beluga were found in abundance, reaching a weight of 1,5 tons (for comparison, the weight of a bison is about 1 ton) and giving dietary (as they say now) protein and black caviar buckets (with the Red Slavs did not hear).

                Sturgeon was like a capelin now, and they caught it all year round. Bony catfish, pike and crucian carp were considered just a dressing for fish soup, they were strained after boiling, and sturgeon was cooked in the broth.

                In addition to fish, there was deer and wild boar meat. Home-made pork and lamb were eaten only in winter after cutting, slaughter and freezing. Salted pork for food on the hunt, on trips and in war.

                Ducks and geese were harvested in the fall, when they were feeding fat before flying south. Poultry meat was mainly smoked.

                The Eastern Slavs began to starve after the formation of the Russian state, increasing population density and the transition from hunting and fishing to agriculture with lean years.
              3. Mordvin 3 19 March 2020 21: 30 New
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                Quote: Operator
                Salted Pork

                Quote: Operator
                Poultry meat was mainly smoked.

                And where did they get the salt? What a hundred or two years ago, it was quite expensive.
              4. Caretaker 19 March 2020 22: 31 New
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                Quote: mordvin xnumx
                And where did they get the salt? What a hundred or two years ago, it was quite expensive.

                In the North-West, in the area of ​​Staraya Russa, there are still many salty sources.
              5. Mordvin 3 19 March 2020 22: 48 New
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                Quote: Caretaker
                In the North-West, in the area of ​​Staraya Russa, there are still many salty sources.

                We are talking about the 7th century approximately. How there tribes traded among themselves, I personally do not quite understand. Pomors are unlikely to trample into the Ryazan region with their salt, what could the tribes of those areas give them in return?
              6. Caretaker 20 March 2020 20: 18 New
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                Quote: mordvin xnumx
                We are talking about the 7th century approximately. How there tribes traded among themselves, I personally do not quite understand. Pomors are unlikely to trample into the Ryazan region with their salt,

                Are you joking?
                Why do Pomors bring salt to Ryazan if there are closer sources?
                They moved along the rivers.
                In Ryazan it is more convenient to deliver salt from the south, along the Volga.
                To Kiev - from the south, along the Dnieper.

                Sources near modern Staraya Russa и Soltsov, could supply with salt the surroundings of future Rugodiv, Pskov, Izborsk, Polotsk, Smolensk, Tver, Yaroslavl, Staraya Ladoga, Korela, i.e. the Ilmen, Ladoga basin and what is nearby, through drains.
                Novgorod is 60 km away. north of Staraya Russa, with a fair wind in one day it is possible to swim.

                Salt is a strategic commodity and the struggle for control over them was probably a serious one.
  • Mihaylov 19 March 2020 12: 45 New
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    There is an opposite point of view: the life of mankind of the era of nomadic hunter-gatherers was a kind of golden age of mankind.
    People ate quite well and variedly: meat of various kinds, various fish, nuts, wild cereals and berries gave the necessary good set of vitamins and minerals. Indirectly enough good bones of Cro-Magnon people testify to this.
    The man did not work as much as now: half a day of gathering and hunting provided him with everything necessary. It was free time to do creativity.
    Biologically over tens of thousands of years, man has evolved precisely under this lifestyle.
    They lived not so few, of course, the weak did not survive, and they got rid of the elderly. Therefore, in general, they were quite healthy. But there were not many children, that is, they gave birth not so often. Anyway, more than 1 baby will not be carried away with you.
    Etc. I am not an adherent of this theory, I simply stated it.
  • Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 12: 15 New
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    Quote: kalibr
    It is now empty and hungry in the forests.

    We just lost the skills of getting food in the forest. The forest will feed now, from May to October, in any case, you only need to be able to get food. But we do not know how. request
    1. Liam 19 March 2020 13: 30 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Quote: kalibr
      It is now empty and hungry in the forests.

      We just lost the skills of getting food in the forest. The forest will feed now, from May to October, in any case, you only need to be able to get food. But we do not know how. request

      Hunting rifle with an optical sight?
      It is full of programs where people survive for several weeks in the wild with a primitive way of life and primitive weapons. Moreover, these are people who are not from the same city, but people who have skills and have been preparing for this for a long time in areas where game is full of from Africa to the Amazon. .On 10 -15 kg in a couple of weeks they lose
      1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 14: 00 New
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        Quote: Liam
        Full of programs where people survive

        This show is basically.
        You can calmly survive in the forest in the summer, I'm not talking about autumn, if you find a place on the shore of a reservoir of fish and settle in there. Even with minimal (Internet) training and without special equipment. I tried. smile And the forest was not the wildest, by the way, quite well-groomed.
        1. Liam 19 March 2020 14: 11 New
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          Of course, the show. Therefore, at the first scratch or dysentery, physicians immediately run away. The Neolithic system of health care was a little worse. But the idea of ​​such a lifestyle is quite good, you obviously can’t reap on those grub.

          Quote: Trilobite Master
          You can calmly survive in the summer in the forest

          You can. But mainly because the main human diet in such conditions is root crops and not meat. But root crops are still not all year round. It will be very difficult to survive for at least 6-7 months a year.
          1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 14: 50 New
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            Fish is easy to fish.
            And summer - it’s for that and in summer, in order to make stocks for the winter. Ancestors could. We, in particular, only survive, I will not be able to make stocks personally. smile
  • Olgovich 19 March 2020 16: 11 New
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    Quote: kalibr
    Hunger!!! At that time, nature was abundant. Only the lazy starved or could not get his own food.

    I do not agree, Vyacheslav Olegovich: hunger is the eternal companion of man from pre-biblical times: droughts, crop failures, fires, floods, often left him with the same famous famine of the Time of Troubles ..... hi
  • Caretaker 19 March 2020 19: 24 New
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    Quote: Undecim
    a big-bellied guy in a braid with two darts in his hand, howling at the moon.

    For sulits, the tips are heavy and a festive shirt with a belt before the battle is not very reliable.
    Although, if the author sees this :)
  • Mavrikiy 19 March 2020 10: 38 New
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    Well, I can’t master, this nonsense, just physically.
    based on folklore data
    What other folklore, epics, speak Russian .... from the VI-VIII centuries. neither epics, nor songs, nor "folklore" have survived.
    among the Slavs a significant role in the early political organization was played by military fraternities ....... And with it might be hard to argue with that.
    What wanted to say something heartfelt, CIN? Played or not? Afraid to say a word, responsibility.
    Militarygender association
    To write in Slavonic, liberalist inclinations do not allow?
    Secret Men's Unions,
    Intrigue....
    Moreover, ethnographers cite a wide range of such secret male organizations around the world, but especially in Africa, the classic country of secret societies, Australia and North America (for example, Indians).
    Hohlandskie songs about the most important thing: Everything is like that. But the most important secret societies in the author’s memory were erased. Religious and Masonic. And somehow the author has no idea that secret societies are needed for “work” in a foreign, hostile territory. But the Slavs didn’t even need them in figs, which is why we do not have a culture of secret societies. The Old Believers rose and went, dissolved in space. But the Jews dispersed throughout the earth, they were necessary, as well as the Catholics.
    1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 11: 40 New
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      Quote: Mavrikiy
      Well, I can’t master, this nonsense, just physically.

      So write your own?
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      from VI – VIII centuries neither epics, nor songs, nor "folklore" have survived.

      So it is from the XIII century. and even from XVI - XVII is not preserved. laughing The earliest that was recorded, in my opinion, in the XVIII century., And so, the main thing - in the XIX. Bylina and folklore are varieties of oral creativity, oral, you understand? They are always modern and correspond to the language of the time in which they exist. And at the same time passed from mouth to mouth from ancient times, respectively, and the roots have the deepest. And there are people who specifically study these issues, compare samples of such creativity from different peoples, record similarities and differences, etc. Do not you understand that the first "tales" - oral stories appeared immediately as soon as human speech appeared and they are the ancestors of the epics familiar to us, their direct ancestors? This is feather.
      Next.
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      Afraid to say a word, responsibility.

      Stupidity man is afraid to say. This fear, apparently, is unknown to you. People with strongly forgiven ideas about the world often have this.
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      Write in Slovenian

      "Packs, packs, like cherubs" ... wassat laughing A man writes in good Russian. You answer him bad. And you demand to write "in Slavonic" ... Just enchanting nonsense. laughing
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      But the most important secret societies in the author’s memory were erased. Religious and Masonic.

      It was worth reading all your nonsense to get to this ... laughing Where can your head be without them, darlings, "Masons" (probably from the word "mass") and the Jews ... Well, honestly, I’m not at all surprised that when you talk about the early Slavs, you will sooner or later talk about Jews and freemasons. Well, Ukraine must be dragged, so where without it. laughing
      Oh-ho-ho, who are you so abundantly shit in the contents of the skull? wassat laughing
    2. kalibr 19 March 2020 11: 45 New
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      But in the tribes of the Indians of St. America there were secret societies and male unions. See Engels, “The Origin of the Family ...” in both Polynesia and many other nations, which by no means worked in foreign territories.
  • Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 11: 07 New
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    Greetings to the venerable meeting. smile hi
    In the morning the mood was filthy, and looked at VO, I look, Edward’s article - "oh, but life is getting better." laughing
    And then, I see, most respected comrades have already been noted in the comments, which is also pleasing. smile
    Edward, thanks for the material, as always interesting and useful.
    Now, probably, our “Samsonists” will fly up and start spraying with whatever they can about the great warriors of the Slavic-Russians, about the dominance of Russophobes on the site, etc., but this will not affect anything - my mood will remain good, and they will not be able to give any arguments appropriate in such discussions. So let them come. laughing
    Actually, according to the article, there is nothing special to say, everything is logical, reasonable and completely coincides with my own vision of this era.
    Some people want to be proud that their ancestors were great warriors, hanging lyuley to everyone in the district, killed, burned, raped women, took away what they wanted from anyone ... I'm not sure that this can serve as such an unconditional subject of pride. Much more worthy of respect is the ability to peacefully come to the land, ennoble it, grow bread on it, build cities - exactly what our ancestors did, surviving due to hard peaceful work, and not due to robbery and violence.
    No, of course, it could not do without violence either, but nevertheless it was not put at the forefront, and it was not the cornerstone at the foundation of the foundation on which the first ancient Russian state was later built.
    1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 11: 24 New
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      Thank you Michael! hi
      1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 11: 41 New
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        Thank you for your work. hi
        1. Pane Kohanku 19 March 2020 12: 36 New
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          Some people want to be proud that their ancestors were great warriors, hung lyuley to everyone in the area, killed, burned, raped women, robbed what they wanted from anyone ...

          and some would not mind if their ancestors hung a slap in the face to all the women in the district and raped what they wanted from anyone ... laughing that's me, rearranged the words. drinks
          No, of course, it could not do without violence either, but nevertheless it was not put at the forefront, and it was not the cornerstone at the foundation of the foundation on which the first ancient Russian state was later built.

          I agree, then - yes. I will say seditious thing: and then? after all, trips for buns were also made? The Sigtun Gate is an example of this. Or was there a war? hi
          1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 13: 51 New
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            Quote: Pan Kohanku
            trips for buns were also made

            In those days, the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries, when there were no professional warrior squads, the campaigns “for goodies”, as it seems to me, had a lot of differences from what happened later.
            For such a trip to take place, it was necessary that several conditions coincide.
            First, we needed a neighbor who had these buns. Rich neighbor. And not many had such, only the southern Slavs — Byzantium with its cities.
            Secondly, people were needed. Extra ones that could break away from the "production process" without prejudice to this very process. And such people needed a decent amount.
            Thirdly, something was necessary that necessitated such a campaign. When you are full, satisfied and you have everything, it does not hurt to pack up and go somewhere. Need an incentive. What could have served as such an incentive - the cry of "Ours Beat!" or “There is nothing to eat”, it doesn’t matter, but there had to be something like that, so that people would want to abandon their cozy dugouts and shove somewhere with the risk of being killed there.
            And fourthly, we need a "real violent" leader, who himself will go and drive his friends.
            Without one condition, no trip will take place.
            In the south, such campaigns are recorded systematically, in the north of the Slavic world it’s somehow not very, apparently there were no suitable goals or there were enough others.
            But, most importantly, such campaigns did not pursue any political goals and did not have noticeable economic consequences. Slavic expansion was carried out by mass migration of entire tribes in full force, with wives, children and other belongings, to new lands, or by "creeping" resettlement due to the specifics of slash-and-burn agriculture.
            And by the way, about the Sigtuna campaign.
            It would be necessary to write an article on this subject in order to close the question.
            The gates that are currently standing in Novgorod are most likely not related to Sigtuna, simply because there have never been such gates in this Sigtuna. There is substantial reason to believe that these gates were either recaptured or bought from Lithuania much later, but originally stood in Plock, Poland.
            In the Sigtun campaign itself, the Russians most likely did not participate, in any case in significant quantities, and if they did, it was only as volunteers or "military experts." The bulk of the participants in the campaign, of course, are Korela.
            In Russian chronicles this campaign is not reflected at all, the only thing that allows us to assume the fate of Russians in it is the Swedish chronicles. But the trouble is that in the earliest, very first, written in hot pursuit, Russians are not mentioned either. The first mention of Russians as participants in the ruin of Sigtuna appears about two hundred years later, at the beginning of the XIV century, when the next stage of the confrontation between Novgorod and Sweden in the Baltic states began (founding by the Swedes of Vyborg, Landskrona, etc.). All this was well described and disassembled by I.P. Shaskolsky.
            So alas ...
            1. Pane Kohanku 19 March 2020 14: 28 New
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              It would be necessary to write an article on this subject in order to close the question.

              Michael, I agree to become your "muse", for my question you have already dashed off a third of the article! drinks I adhered to the canonical version of the appearance of the gate. hi
              Without one condition, no trip will take place.

              everything else is like clockwork. I will add another condition - when two or more overgrown people (already having relative statehood) begin to divide the spheres of influence. What happened in the Baltic and adjacent territory in the future. hi Has the collective West moved to enslave us? what Yes, the Lord is with you! stop Normal competition. Lord Novgorodians did not remain in debt. drinks
  • Operator 19 March 2020 11: 20 New
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    The farther the more material turns into fortune-telling on coffee grounds with fantasy in one bottle.

    The next picture was especially touched by a certain spheroconic "Slavic warrior" in a vacuum without an ax, knife and bow with one horn. The author clearly does not know about the existence of a water mode of transportation - it’s a matter of fact, because Eastern Europe at that time was covered with a dense network of land communications, along which masses of people and goods traveled on foot and donkeys - the history of the Romans will not let you lie laughing

    The Slavs of the beginning of our era had a princely squad, a tribal militia and a military union of tribes - and that’s all. On a fig to invent essences and to get into the cultural environment, alien for Slavs, of Germans, Romans, Greeks and, especially, Old Testament Jews?

    The Slavs had enough of their military structure to terrorize the Danes in the north, capture Illyria and Thrace in the south and carry out raids on Tavria in the east, not to mention the protection of their indigenous places in central and eastern Europe.
    1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 11: 47 New
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      Quote: Operator
      The Slavs of the beginning of our era had a princely squad, a tribal militia and a military union of tribes - and that’s all.

      Everything would be wonderful if the statement you categorically stated about the presence of squads among the Slavs was somehow confirmed archaeologically or by some other sources. But alas. So the author is right, and not you - with the clan-tribal system, all members of society are equal, everyone works, everyone, if necessary, fight. No professional squads, no warriors, no matter how you would like it.
    2. Fishery 19 March 2020 12: 58 New
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      sorry)) but where did you see the stag beetle)))))?
      1. Operator 19 March 2020 13: 50 New
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        Rogatina (from the word horn) - a spear, hunting equipment in the form of a pole and a pommel (double-edged blade) for hunting wild boars, elks and bears (in the latter case, a crossbar was attached to the blade with a leather strap).

        Just like an ax - logging and carpentry equipment, a bow - hunting equipment for hunting deer and poultry, a knife - household equipment.
        1. Fishery 19 March 2020 13: 50 New
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          I am aware))) but but the gopher illustrations
          1. Operator 19 March 2020 14: 08 New
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            What is the point - the Slavic tribal militia was armed with improvised hunting and household equipment.

            Darts (gophers) as well as swords, helmets, shields and chain mail were the weapons of a few princely squads. With them, the combatants looked completely different from the author of the article in the drawings (which depicts a fantasy hybrid of the militia and the combatant).

            Plus, it is necessary to distinguish between princely vigilantes of individual East Slavic tribes and princely vigilantes after the unification of these tribes within the state with the capital in Novgorod and Kiev. The former traveled on odnoderevki lodges (with stackable shield sides when going to sea), the latter on horses (see Svyatoslav’s campaigns).

            Neither the difference in armaments between the militia and the squad, nor the difference in the vehicles of the squad by time periods - nothing is reflected in this article.
            1. Fishery 19 March 2020 14: 11 New
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              I think the author had in mind a period when there was not only a squad but also a prince, the community was, the prince was not, gophers are one of the Slavs' favorite weapons, that period, since it does not require a building skill, they threw it and retreated into the forest if something was wrong . To the boats, chain mail and princes still had to live)
              1. Operator 19 March 2020 14: 27 New
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                Damn, what kind of system could the tribal militia have, the main tactic of which was to run the crowd to the line of throwing a horn (20-30 meters), break the shields (if war with the Romans or Byzantines), together with their owners and then chop axes the enemy into the cabbage?

                The tribal militia consisted of hefty men 20-30 years old, pumped up in logging operations and trained in the production of large animals, sitting on a protein diet since childhood (game, ostetrin, caviar) with a small variety in the form of spelled and millet porridge. To them, small-headed, southerners (in tunics instead of ports), sitting on a carbohydrate diet (peas and beans), were no match for the word in close combat after breaking the enemy’s military system.
                1. Fishery 19 March 2020 14: 31 New
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                  Well, in defense of the southerners))) the Italians are small, the Germans are large but both factions were not lost in close combat, it is worth noting that this is a battle in the forest and a raid is one thing, and the regular army is another, the exploits of the Slavs during this period are a little exaggerated and are considered rather through the prism of internal use

                  The Slavs, further says Mauritius, pursue each other with hatred, do not know how to fight in an open field, fight in all directions.
                  peas and beans by the way)
                  Proteins, g: 6.0
                  Fats, g: 0.1
                  Carbohydrates, g: 8.5
                  1. Operator 19 March 2020 14: 57 New
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                    This is exactly what I’m talking about - the tactics of the tribal militia consisted in imposing close combat on the enemy (for example, reducing the distance of running under the cover of a forest).

                    As practice shows, bodybuilders on peas do not grow laughing
                    1. Fishery 19 March 2020 15: 00 New
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                      )) I bet) they grow up, this is a mistake, there is enough protein in peas and beans and even buckwheat, including for a bodybuilder - straight, I say as an athlete)) the difference will only be with steroids and growth hormone and not.
                      1. Operator 19 March 2020 15: 05 New
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                        I have Soviet experience - our meat / fish is everything laughing
                      2. Fishery 19 March 2020 15: 07 New
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                        here it is necessary to expand horizons))) the USSR did the right thing by feeding people with buckwheat, try adding vegetables to meat in order to level some effects of meat diets, we eat meat myself)))) but I also regret cereals and vegetables.
                      3. Operator 19 March 2020 15: 09 New
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                        Now - only the Mediterranean diet (for adversaries we have a Strategic Missile Forces) laughing
                  2. Mihaylov 19 March 2020 15: 07 New
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                    in peas and beans and even in buckwheat there is enough protein, including for a bodybuilder - straight

                    I agree with you, modern studies have shown that legumes were based on legumes. The burial of gladiators somewhere in Asia Minor was investigated.
                2. kalibr 19 March 2020 18: 01 New
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                  Grow on rice and chicken!
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 15: 02 New
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            Quote: Tonya
            I think the author had in mind a period when there was not only a squad but also a prince, the community was, the prince was not, gophers are one of the Slavs' favorite weapons, that period, since it does not require a building skill, they threw it and retreated into the forest if something was wrong . To the boats, chain mail and princes still had to live)

            All truly respected Tonya, except!
            According to Byzantine sources, the Slavs living on the banks of the rivers did not hesitate to use the "monkils" (odnoevoechnye shuttles). Moreover, their size was significant and after the retrofitting did not concede to the river boats the field of the late period.
            1. Fishery 19 March 2020 15: 03 New
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              I am him))) just not Ivanov Ivan Ivanovich) I probably should have written Tony)))
              1. Pane Kohanku 19 March 2020 15: 10 New
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                probably it was necessary to write Tony)))

                in general, yes, because your phrase "I say as an athlete))" a little ripped pattern in my brain. belay Sincerely thought that .... In short, call! drinks How can I contact you? With respect, Nicholai hi
                1. Fishery 19 March 2020 19: 55 New
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                  Yes, Tony will do)
              2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 20: 45 New
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                I apologize to Tony.
      2. Caretaker 19 March 2020 19: 47 New
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        Quote: Tonya
        but but the gopher illustrations

        Perhaps you meant the grooms, not the gophers?
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 20: 47 New
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          Not gophers are funnier! We are looking for better sumyatiny, but you are right sulitsa the only right decision!
          Although a gopher in the head, it’s still a pleasure!
  • Mihaylov 19 March 2020 11: 43 New
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    Good afternoon, Edward!
    Great as always!
    They raised an interesting question: what did the people of that time really look like?
    I mean, could there really be a “pussiko” or vice versa all were slender, what diseases were characteristic (of those of course that can be traced by bone remnants and possibly images), what did the spring-autumn 623 fashion offer?
    1. Fishery 19 March 2020 12: 56 New
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      it is logical to assume that slender, a little carbohydrates could be obtained, a lot of fiber, parasites, meat of forest animals contributes)
    2. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 17: 42 New
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      Greetings Sergey!
      When I wrote "I see this" - I meant my writing technique, loudly indicated. Paraphrasing the famous expression from "The Adventures of Prince Florizel".
      In general - the discussion around the "belly" - a storm in a glass.
      About "puziko", rickets, etc.
      Obviously, I am familiar with all the identical images of this period - the images have come down to us in “heroic” poses, there are no realistic ones.
      But, when we turn to late sources or photos of the same people of the XNUMXth century, the stomach is present here to its full height, the stomach in general is a satellite of the natural physical strength of a mature person, many may not remember, but in the barbell and in the classic struggle recently, "belly" was commonplace, even modern images of heroes - and those with a belly, which is natural, if you do not specifically work on the press, but this is a different story, but I have no idea, but I won’t.
      Karelin, if I’m not mistaken, is the one with whom the “classic” without a belly began: weight, everything and again weight.
      But back to our "belly". If we turn to the materials of later historical periods - everything is the same, no athletes with press cubes, with a rare, rare exception, even in the military professional environment: examples of the armor of Henry VIII, from super-decent to fat man: such a human nature, if, like it’s possible now to sit on super diets, eat right and support yourself with “sports”.
      By the way, as I wrote here more than once, war is not a sport, it is not a sport at all.
      Well, let’s say the Swiss mountaineers are fat, right? And how their infantry gave a knight to all the "athletes" from the end of the XNUMXth century.
      Therefore, the judgment that a fat man is not a warrior is naive, I’ve seen such fat men in the army, but like a warrior they will give any “athlete” a light: because the warrior is not about a beautiful figure and ... epaulettes.
      All this is still a prelude.
      Now according to the sources: there is no data - archaeological, there are, of course, scientific reconstructions of the skulls of the Western Slavs, later, and eastern, people are often lean, but one thing does not cancel the other.
      There is no data in the sources - much can be assumed, I proceeded from images of the southern Slavs and photos of them in the late period: there are a lot of obese, and I saw it myself in Bulgaria, Serbia or Croatia: there are a lot of fat people (of course, of course, modern food).
      But when do they depict fat avars? - and they are riders, and jockeys weigh no more than 50 kg, why?
      Believe me, I am familiar with the most extensive scientific material on this topic, published all over the world, I haven’t seen work on the "fat" one or not.
      We are talking about a “husband”, a community member who was primarily engaged in agriculture, that is, he was stocky and full, he was also a member of the tribal militia, no one else is encountered in the Slavic environment of this period, so I see him like that.
      And again: I wrote in black in Russian: drawing, not reconstruction!
      Incidentally, the second is not fat!
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 20: 56 New
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        Edward! Do not take nitpicking to your drawings to heart. If the real illustration was attacked only because of the “belly”, then it definitely succeeded !!!
        Now I am slightly injuring supporters of dystrophy and rickets of our ancestors. The warrior in the picture of Edward on a campaign, but where is his scrub?
        Perhaps in the bosom, literally without jokes. Why not!
        Best regards, Honest company, Vlad!
        1. Edward Vashchenko 19 March 2020 20: 58 New
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          Vladislav,
          with respect hi
          I know everyone can offend an artist.
          I drew a “bomb” here - maybe I’ll post it through the text - this is where the battle will be.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 March 2020 21: 10 New
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            We look forward to it!
          2. Mihaylov 20 March 2020 11: 14 New
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            Quote: Edward Vashchenko
            I drew a “bomb” here - maybe I’ll post it through the text - this is where the battle will be.

            Edward, just not at the weekend, otherwise I’ll miss everything in the country
        2. Korsar4 19 March 2020 21: 17 New
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          "And he laid out on the table
          Syringe, castor oil, validol,
          Five glass ampoules and
          Quartz lamp "(c).
  • kalibr 19 March 2020 11: 50 New
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    Quote: Mavrikiy
    But the Jews dispersed throughout the earth, they were necessary, as well as the Catholics.

    Also wrong. And what kind of secret societies did the Jews have? And the Catholics. In the era of the early Middle Ages and even later they did not have any secret societies. If we consider those famous masons, then what is this century? And how many among the freemasons were ... Orthodox, Protestants and ... Catholics? Catholics, perhaps, will be in the minority!
  • Operator 19 March 2020 11: 56 New
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    Quote: Trilobite Master
    No professional squads

    I already explained that the prince, and not the tribe, needed the squad to collect polyud (tax on keeping the prince) and to carry out police functions between the clans.

    The participation of the prince's squad in the war is its extra work in the regime of otkhodnichestvo.
    1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 12: 23 New
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      Quote: Operator
      Prince needed a squad

      Which prince in the tribal system? They have accumulated material resources, property stratification has begun, rich and poor have appeared - then only this process started and then not immediately and not quickly. In the period described, the Slavs did not have anything like that, which is fully confirmed by archeology.
      1. Operator 19 March 2020 12: 34 New
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        You have deja vu - what was the name of the head of the tribe (not kind) among the Slavs? laughing
        1. Fat
          Fat 19 March 2020 13: 54 New
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          Quote: Operator
          You have deja vu - what was the name of the head of the tribe (not kind) among the Slavs? laughing

          Probably the leader was the head of the tribe, wasn’t that?
          1. Operator 19 March 2020 14: 33 New
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            Leader is a general term; at the level of the patriarchal family - the father / grandfather, at the level of the clan - the elder, at the level of the tribe - the prince, at the level of the union of the tribes - the great (in the sense of a great) prince.
            1. Fat
              Fat 19 March 2020 14: 57 New
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              The chiefdom is based on social ranking, but blood-related relations prevail in its structure and management, and the status of an individual is determined by how close a relative of the leader he is. An chiefdom does not necessarily span more than one community or tribe.
              The chiefdom differs from the state in that the ruling elite in the state acquires professionalism, there is an administration and an army. The chiefdom is defined as “an intermediate form of political structure, in which there is already centralized management and a hereditary hierarchy of rulers and nobles, there is social and property inequality, but there is still no formal and all the more legalized apparatus of coercion and violence”
              The chiefdom (chiefdom, English Chiefdom) - "an autonomous political unit that includes several villages or communities united under the constant authority of the supreme leader" is all from Wiki.
              Who is the prince can be found there ...
              this is from another opera. The prince, the prince, have little to do with tribal society. The fully legitimate "Prince with the squad" as a machine of suppression is already a state.
              1. Operator 19 March 2020 15: 02 New
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                How to manage a thousandth tribe (and even divided into genders) without the apparatus of violence - with a kind word? laughing
                1. Fat
                  Fat 19 March 2020 15: 36 New
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                  Quote: Operator
                  How to manage a thousandth tribe (and even divided into genders) without the apparatus of violence - with a kind word? laughing

                  Why is it without violence?))))
                  Iroquois League (Haudenosauni) neighbors cut only the way)))
                  The social structure of the league was later partly borrowed by the founding fathers when the United States Constitution was created ...
                  1. Operator 19 March 2020 15: 38 New
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                    I'm not talking about neighbors, but about intra-tribal showdowns of childbirth.
                    1. Fat
                      Fat 19 March 2020 16: 30 New
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                      Quote: Operator
                      I'm not talking about neighbors, but about intra-tribal showdowns of childbirth.

                      Well, vipers had only personal property, pots, spoons, blankets, weapons for hunting, and each (and each had their own) with which they got married and got divorced. Social work
                      division of labor by gender. The results of the work are distributed fairly.
                      There is nothing to divide within the tribe. In case of conflict, the elders make decisions, the leader fulfills. Democracy.
                      Do not agree with the decision of the Council?
                      Take away your belongings and live outside the long house, an exile.
                      1. Operator 19 March 2020 16: 43 New
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                        The American Indians still lived in Neolithic births, and the Slavs of the beginning of our era were already tribes of the Iron Age. The property of the tribe (agricultural, hunting and fishing lands) was divided between separate clans living in their own villages.

                        From here came property graters between clans, which the elective prince had to regulate with his apparatus of violence - friendships (squads). The prince was elected by the council of elders of birth first for a year (from harvest to harvest), then until the first puncture in the work, then for life.
                      2. Fat
                        Fat 19 March 2020 17: 36 New
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                        Quote: Operator
                        From here came property graters

                        It's not about the Neolithic and the Iron Age ...
                        And in the gender of the elders. Patriarchal society is stratified faster, problems with inheritance of property, and graters
                        between births. "Father is always unknown" (C) But it is always known who the mother is.
                        The social organization of the Iroquois is a classic example of the maternal-tribal system. In ethnography, the term "Iroquois-type kinship system" exists, such a kinship system can be found in any region of the world.
                      3. Operator 19 March 2020 17: 40 New
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                        I do not argue - plus the Neolithic is also matriarchy.
                    2. kalibr 19 March 2020 17: 57 New
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                      Quote: Operator
                      The American Indians still lived in Neolithic births, and the Slavs of the beginning of our era were already tribes of the Iron Age. The property of the tribe (agricultural, hunting and fishing lands) was divided between separate clans living in their own villages.

                      Everything was exactly the same! Read Morgan's Ancient Society, but there are links to Rybakov in the article ...
                    3. Operator 19 March 2020 18: 01 New
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                      Do you know how a clan differs from a tribe?

                      As for the annals of academician Rybakov about his residence in Kiev in 600 AD, I do not know anything laughing
  • Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 14: 10 New
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    "Deja Vu" translates to "already seen." What does it have to do with it?
    Quote: Operator
    the head of the tribe (not kind) among the Slavs

    But at least it doesn’t matter. Even a “prince", although I'm not sure about that. You can even call a Caesar. But if there is no squad, there is no military culture, as a result, there is no professional weapon, everyone is equal, “from each according to his ability, to each possible”, then there is nothing to be done but call.
    The prince that you described, who collected the village and carried out police functions, has to wait a couple of centuries before him and he will appear only with the development of the river routes "from the Vikings to the Greeks" and "from the Vikings to the Persians."
    1. Operator 19 March 2020 14: 50 New
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      Deja vu in the sense that we discussed the prince in a previous article.

      The prince's squad is a mandatory attribute of a tribe for the leader of the tribe to exercise his powers, including the protection of the tribe's borders from encroachments of neighbors, i.e. warfare.

      And what, it was ordered to Slavs to travel by water, for example, along the Dnieper without any shifts from the Vyatichi in the meadow and back? laughing
      1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 15: 03 New
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        Quote: Operator
        Princely squad - an obligatory attribute of the tribe

        The false thesis.
        The prince's squad is a product of the decomposition of the tribal system. She was not in the tribe and could not be for the simple reason that this is a purely expenditure part of the budget. As soon as surpluses appeared that could be used to maintain this squad, tribal communities immediately turned into territorial ones. This is called the stage of decomposition of the tribal system.
        And the tribal leader exercised his powers solely at the expense of his authority and political abilities. He could not make decisions and act against the will of his fellow tribesmen.
        In fact, it’s strange that you have to explain such things.
        1. Operator 19 March 2020 15: 07 New
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          The system is called tribal.
          1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 15: 34 New
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            Quote: Operator
            The system is called tribal.

            Quote: Trilobite Master
            This is called the stage of decomposition of the tribal system.

            What did I say? Are you talking about this?
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            decay product

            Well, let's get typos as arguments to use. You perfectly understood what I wanted to say.
            1. Operator 19 March 2020 15: 42 New
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              The tribal system, by definition, does not have to decompose in order for the tribal prince to appear with his apparatus of violence - the prince's squad.

              In the ancestral system preceding it (Neolithic), the elder of the clan, who relied on his family, was completely dispensed with.
              1. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 15: 43 New
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                Quote: Operator
                by definition

                Is this an argument?
                1. Operator 19 March 2020 15: 45 New
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                  Don't troll me laughing
                2. Trilobite Master 19 March 2020 15: 54 New
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                  I didn’t even think about doing it.
                  It just became interesting if there were any arguments other than the one presented. If not, then I think it's time to stop the discussion.
      2. kalibr 19 March 2020 15: 50 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        And the tribal leader exercised his powers solely at the expense of his authority and political abilities. He could not make decisions and act against the will of his fellow tribesmen.

        Among the Indians of St. America, this was very well visible ...
  • Fishery 19 March 2020 12: 53 New
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    squirrels in the Kiev region is still lying a lot - it was a popular weapon among the Slavs.
    1. Operator 19 March 2020 14: 45 New
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      I am not a hunter - it is possible that the gopher was suitable for deer hunting.
      1. Fishery 19 March 2020 14: 54 New
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        yes, it was used both as a weapon and as a means of hunting, the more woodlands and swamps are, the more gophers are found.
      2. Caretaker 19 March 2020 19: 58 New
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        Quote: Operator
        gopher suitable for deer hunting

        Again a gopher, not a gopher. Did I miss something?
        1. Operator 19 March 2020 20: 09 New
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          Word automatically substitutes the extra c.
          1. Caretaker 19 March 2020 20: 55 New
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            Quote: Operator
            Word automatically substitutes the extra c.

            Then everything is in order, otherwise I already began to doubt. I remembered :)
            See the gopher?
            No.
            And I do not see, but he is.
        2. Korsar4 19 March 2020 20: 39 New
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          And the gopher - on the gophers.
          1. Pane Kohanku 20 March 2020 10: 06 New
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            And the gopher - on the gophers.

            Sergey, I thought so too. laughing What is a weapon for the production of hot smoked gopher. wink But if it is a jamb of "Word" - then it does not count. drinks
  • fuxila 19 March 2020 13: 07 New
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    On the other hand, there is an opinion that the ethnonym of the West Slavic tribe Wilzi comes from Old Polab - wolves, according to another version, from Old Russian - giants, although there are no more tribal names in this region.

    If we talk about existing opinions, it is precisely in this region that totem names are noted - near the Wilts-wolves lived the Varna-ravens and encouraged, also called rorog-falcons. Although, of course, this is just one of the versions.
  • Pacifist with AK 19 March 2020 17: 15 New
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    Found in the sources of your article B.A. Rybakova. At one time he studied his work "Paganism of the Ancient Slavs" of 1980 (I am sure you know). Serious, interesting thing.
    For the article, undoubtedly, a big thanks! Do your own thing, dear. Success!
    Link: http: //www.rodon.org/rba/yads.htm
    1. Edward Vashchenko 20 March 2020 23: 59 New
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      At one time he studied his work "Paganism of the Ancient Slavs" in 1980 (I am sure you know).

      I literally plowed this work B.A. Rybakova before 1 year of history faculty, when he studied software after the army. It was worth it. hi
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
  • Caretaker 19 March 2020 20: 30 New
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    The very terms associated with the army that have come down to us say this: howl - warrior of the militia, voivode - howl, the one who leads the militia to war, war, slaughter, boyar - from battle, battle, howl - the "commander" of the militia detachment, actually , and war, and the army - this is a clash of howls and the organization of howling communes. You should not look for Turkic roots in the term “boyar”, Bulgarian “boils” are consonant with the boyars, but they are of independent origin. Otherwise, how to explain this term in the territory of Ancient Rus, long before borrowing the written language from Bulgaria?

    Try searching in the direction - bright, bright, Yarilo, or yar.
    Bo-yarin - ...?
    Howling is unlikely.
    By the way, the Bulgarians are not a boyar, but a boyar.
    1. Pane Kohanku 20 March 2020 10: 09 New
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      By the way, the Bulgarians are not a boyar, but a boyar.

      Leonid, allow a joke? drinks "Bolyarin-danzun" - So they call the dancers? wink Volochkova and Tsiskaridze? drinks a week ago I went to the La Bayadere - for the second time in my life I was at the ballet .. I got in! good
  • Operator 19 March 2020 21: 51 New
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    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    And where did they get the salt?

    The Varangians, of course - in the form of a fee for transit to the Greeks laughing
    1. Caretaker 20 March 2020 20: 20 New
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      Quote: Operator
      The Varangians, of course - in the form of a fee for transit to the Greeks

      Why do the "Varangians", cheaper than the locals.
      I suppose that the "Varangians" in the 7th century "to the Greeks" along the Dnieper did not float.
      1. Operator 20 March 2020 21: 49 New
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        I agree - the Slavs had enough of their own saltworks.

        There is a well-founded opinion that the inhabitants of the Baltic and the Black Sea did not sail along the Dnieper at all because of the impossibility of dragging their keel frame vessels through the Dnieper rapids. Western Slavs - Vagra / Varangians, in raids on Byzantium used odnoderevki chisels (quite possibly, renting them from the Eastern Slavs for a share of the trophies).

        PS My previous comment was sarcasm - like the Varangians cooked salt laughing
        1. Caretaker 20 March 2020 23: 33 New
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          Quote: Operator
          There is a well-founded opinion that the inhabitants of the Baltic and the Black Sea did not sail along the Dnieper at all because of the impossibility of dragging their keel frame vessels through the Dnieper rapids. Western Slavs - Vagra / Varangians, in raids on Byzantium used odnoderevki chisels (quite possibly, renting them from the Eastern Slavs for a share of the trophies).

          At present, it is difficult to determine what types of vessels were used on the drags and whether there was a change in "boats." Under Peter I, “keel frame” galleys were dragged over fairly large distances.
          There were several routes and perhaps they differed when moving there and back.
          The Varangians are a way of life, not a nationality. Although, they often coincided with the "classic version."
          1. Operator 21 March 2020 01: 46 New
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            Russian Truth calls prices, and at the same time Russian boats themselves: “a sea boat 3 hryvnias, and for a single boat 2 hryvnias, for a boat 20 kunas, and for a plane hryvnia” (a naboy - boards nailed to raise the sides of small vessels). According to the document of 1402: "a plow with two altyns [2 money], and without money", - spiritual and contractual letters of the great and specific princes of the XIV-XVI centuries. M.–L., 12, p. 1950.

            The Slavic monoxyl was not a pie, but a plow, with built-in wooden boards at the exit to the sea, which were dismantled when moving along the river recess.

            A small plow (St. Petersburg Tnographic Museum) was made of a single log by unrolling and planing a tree with a diameter of 40 cm, a monolithic wooden case was formed a couple of centimeters thick, in the form of a three-dimensional structure, maximally collapsed in the midsection area to a flat parabola, and at the extremities forming almost straight stems. The design is strengthened by four frames and one flora, which also serves as a support for the can (or vice versa), there is no longitudinal set
            https://zdrager.livejournal.com/84698.html

            1. Caretaker 21 March 2020 10: 01 New
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              Quote: Operator
              Russian Truth names prices, and at the same time Russian boats themselves: ...

              We discussed the events of the 7th century.
              Quote: Operator
              Small Strug (Tnographic Museum of St. Petersburg) is made of one log by unrolling and planing from a tree with a diameter of 40 cm

              Thank you, I’ll definitely come, I have not visited for a long time.
              1. Operator 21 March 2020 17: 46 New
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                In the 7th century, the Slavs did not have a written language, but the terminology of watercraft was already there.
                1. Caretaker 21 March 2020 22: 36 New
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                  Quote: Operator
                  In the 7th century, the Slavs did not have a written language, but the terminology of watercraft was already there.

                  Just writing in the 7th century could already be runic.
                  Quote: Operator
                  Russian Truth calls prices, and at the same time Russian boats themselves: “a sea boat 3 hryvnias, and for a single boat 2 hryvnias, for a boat 20 kunas, and for a plane hryvnia” (a naboy - boards nailed to raise the sides of small vessels). According to the document of 1402: "a plow with two altyns [2 money], and without money", - spiritual and contractual letters of the great and specific princes of the XIV-XVI centuries. M.–L., 12, p. 1950.

                  Russian Truth dates from the beginning of the XI century, and we are considering VII. For 400 years, the monetary system, prices, types of "boats" and their names could change. Applied technologies, tools and materials have also substantially changed.
  • Molot1979 20 March 2020 05: 56 New
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    1. Until now, I have not seen an answer to the question of how, with mediocre organization and declared disarmament, the Slavs managed to cope with the Empire, the Goths, and the Avars.
    2. Concerning squads and secret unions. In Shinakov’s work “From Chernigov to Smolensk. The Military History of Russian Abroad from Ancient Times to the 17th Century” it is reasonably stated that if the “crowds” of Slavs often suffered defeats from the Greeks due to poor training and organization, then the actions of smaller units were very sophisticated, using various tricks and higher skills. So, the author reasonably considers these detachments to be just squads.
    1. Operator 20 March 2020 13: 53 New
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      In general, the Slavs of the middle of the first millennium turned out to be stronger than the Romans, since they forever deprived them of the four provinces of Pannonia, Illyria, Thrace and Achaia, and also several times completely devastated Tavria, the northern Black Sea region and the environs of Constantinople.

      Another thing is that the Slavs at that time were not able to take the Romaic capital and fortified cities in Tavria and the northern Black Sea coast. But one should not demand the impossible from the tribal militia - for example, old Rome was taken by barbarians since say "from the inside" after several centuries of their recruitment into the Roman army.

      The small detachments of the Slavs, who ravaged the unprotected settlements of the Romans, including under the very walls of the New Rome, were part of the tribal militia, which scattered around the surrounding area with the aim of collecting trophies after the rout of regular Romei troops.

      The prince's squad in the ranks of the tribal militia was a small striking force due to its small number.
  • Operator 21 March 2020 23: 31 New
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    Quote: Caretaker
    writing in the 7th century could already be runic

    Only hypothetically.

    There is an alternative opinion - the magi supported the idea of ​​a ban on the written recording of information in order to preserve their monopoly on the oral transfer of knowledge, for this the candidates for the magi were selected according to the criterion of better memorization of verbal information and strengthened this quality in the learning process. The foundation is available - until the 6th century BC Aryan Vedas in Sanskrit existed only in oral form, and were written in the Indian alphabet only after several centuries had passed since the death of the last Aryan magician.