Was the squad among the early Slavs?


Slavic warrior in the East VII century. Reconstruction of the author


Entry


В previous article on VO we touched upon the actual military organization of the early Slavs within the framework of the tribal system, as well as the absence of a military “aristocracy” at this stage of development. Now we turn to other military institutions: the prince and the squad in the period of VI-VIII centuries. Controversial issues of this issue will be addressed in this article.

Military leader


Actually, the term "prince", according to the generally accepted view in science, was borrowed by the Proto-Slavs from the Germans, although the East Germanic tribes (Goths) did not know this name. The idea that this term is of Slavic origin has not received distribution (“sticking out, outstanding”).

The tribes or unions of the tribes were headed most often or primarily by “kings” priests (leader, lord, pan, span), whose submission was based on a spiritual, sacred principle, and not under the influence of armed coercion. The leader of the Valinana tribe, described by the Arab Masudi, Majak, according to some researchers, was just such a sacred, and not a military leader (Alekseev S.V.).

However, we know the first "king" of Ants with the speaking name of God (Boz). Based on the etymology of this name, it can be assumed that the Antian ruler was primarily the high priest of this tribal union. But what the author of the twelfth century wrote about this Helmold from Bosau about the Western Slavs:

“The king is at their lesser esteem than the priest [of God Svyatovid. - V.E.] honor ".

No wonder in Polish, Slovak and Czech the “prince” is a priest (knez, ksiąz).

Thus, the initial, main hypostasis of the head of the clan was the priestly function as the realization of the connection of society with the gods.

Another, one might say, natural activity was the judiciary, if within the family, then this right has, so to speak, an organic character. It stems from the right of the heads of the clan to execute and have mercy. But with the increase in the number of clans, tribal judges also appear, which could be all the same heads of the older clan. Their functions included solving problems between members of the same tribe, but of different clans.

Much later, during the emergence of the Polish state, we have information from the Dagome Codex, where the founder of the Polish state Mieszko is a “judge”. There are different opinions on this. It seems to us that the conclusions drawn from the comparative material from the biblical stories, this institution is most clearly explained: according to the Bible, a judge is a sovereign chosen by God, but not a “king." And the judges of the Old Testament are the elder rulers.

Samuel, by the way, is both a high priest and a judge, but not a military leader (K. Gorsky).

That is, Meshko was primarily the head of the tribal union of the Polyans (Poles), where the key function in the management was to judge and “row”, by the way, in the text there are four judges who rule the Polyans (Poles). The military function was still secondary, but in the conditions when Poland was on the verge of early state formation, it came to the fore: military power became public.

It is worth noting that Meshko’s wife, the daughter of the Margrave Dietrich (965–985), is named in the source by the term “senator” (senatrix), and, based on the Roman political tradition, the “senator” is more likely not an “judge”, but an elder (old man - senex), however, it was the elder of the clan who played the role of “judge”.

Thus, initially the head of the clan, and after him the tribal organization, possessed two functions important for the clan society: the priest and the judge.

Under the conditions of an agricultural society, the most important natural function was to understand the agricultural cycle and “control” over the elements, it could be possessed only by an “elderly” person who simply had more natural experience, such was the elder or head of the clan. The military function was secondary at this stage and became important in the event of external aggression or family migration.

However, often the “supreme” priests could also act as a military leader, not because of the “established order”, which was not at this stage, but because of desire or opportunity, as J. J. Frazer wrote:

“Noticing that the ancient kings were usually priests, we far from exhausted the religious side of their functions. In those days, divinity enveloped the king, was not an empty phrase, but an expression of firm faith ... So, the king was often expected to act in the right direction on the weather, so that crops ripen, etc. ”

Ammianus Marcellinus observed the same situation among the Burgundian tribes (370):

"The kings bear one common name" geninos "and, according to the old custom, lose their power if there is a failure in the war under their command, or a crop failure occurs on their land."

These were originally the functions of the kings (rex) of Rome, the Scandinavian kungs and the ancient Greek basileus. Here is the subsequent source of sacralization of power.

Some Germanic tribes, as we know from sources, in particular the Franks, are ready in the VI century, and, perhaps, earlier, the idea is that the king of the whole nation should be a representative of one of the noble clans (Merovingi, Amaly ), but in practice this was not always the case, and the choice of the whole people often fell on the leaders of the valiant and warlike, but not related to the specified clans, for example, Goths in Italy in the VI century. kings were not necessarily chosen from the same kind of Amals (Sannikov SV).

The Slavs during the period under review had “princes,” or, more correctly, military leaders, were necessary only for the discharge of military functions; public authority did not transfer to them. As Caesar wrote about a similar state of German society:

“When a community wages a defensive or offensive war, it chooses a special authority with the right to life and death to lead it. In peacetime, they don’t have a common power for the whole tribe, but the elders of the provinces and pugs do justice among their own people and settle their disputes. ”

Thus, we can say that the management of society was carried out at the level of the gens - by the elders. The unification of clans, and even tribes, could take place only on a sacred basis, and the “princes” were only military leaders, sometimes, possibly, simultaneously heads of clans.

If the function of the head of the clan and the military leader coincided, then its carrier led the community, but if he was only a military leader, then outside the military expedition or threat, such a leader did not have public authority.


Slavic warrior in the East VII century. Sources: 1. Brooch of the 2th-629th centuries found in the Zvonetsky threshold district, Dnieper, Ukraine. 630. An extremely rare image of armor based on chain mail. Silver Byzantine plate 3-4, Cyprus. 5. Taxofaretra, or a single complex for bow and arrow. Described in the "Strategicon" of Mauritius. Image: bone plate. Orlatskoe cemetery. I – V centuries., Samarkand. 6. Tip peaks. VI – VII centuries, p. Poplars (Kharkov region, Ukraine). XNUMX. The bit of the Byzantine circle. Spain, VII century XNUMX. Stirrups. VII century., With. Topoli (Kharkiv Oblast, Ukraine)

Squad


In this case, using the term “squad”, we are not talking about the squad at all, but about the military-police institute. Given its presence in all Slavic languages, it must be understood that the squad was understood not only as the specified institution. So, it is thought, a group of youth of the same age and from the same tribe, who undertook a raid, campaign-initiation, etc., was also called a squad, but not every squad is important to us, but such as an institution for formalizing public professional authority.

Such a squad is, firstly, a structure that denies the clan structure of society, it is based on the principle of not clan but personal devotion, and secondly, it is not in a community organization, it is torn from it socially and territorially (Gorsky A. A.).

Was the squad among the early Slavs?

Fibula VII-VIII century. found in the district of Zvonetsky threshold, Dnipro, Ukraine. Figure O. M. Prikhodnyuk

As for the period of the VI-VIII century, there is no evidence of the presence of squads in the sources. Despite this, a large number of experts believe that the squad among the Slavic tribes was already in the VI (or even V) century.

The authors of the Soviet period proceeded from the aging of the emergence of class society among the Slavs, among the Eastern Slavs in particular. Therefore, they pointed out that all state institutions, including squads, began to form during the movement of the Slavs to the south and west. Modern authors also modernize the situation, using, for example, terms such as “power centers” of the early Slavs, ignoring the real picture of the development of tribal and pre-state structures in their progressive development.

With such conclusions, it is not entirely clear the sharp lag of the Slavic social institutions from their neighbors from the West, the “lag”, explained only by the fact that the Slavs later embarked on the path of historical development and the emergence of social structures took place gradually.


Fragment. Silver Byzantine plate from the series “The Stories of David”. 629-630 years Cyprus. Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York. USA. Author photo

I repeat, in the history of any ethnic group there are a lot of factors that dramatically affect their development, the most important of which was the war, but first of all, in the case of the Slavs, this is the entry into the path of historical development much later than the neighbors and in conditions significantly more complicated compared to them.

In the conditions of the tribal system, when the prince or leader acts only as the leader of the tribal militia during the raid or military danger, the squad cannot exist. Therefore, historical sources of this period do not report on it. It’s one thing “squad” for a joint one-time campaign, another thing is a structure consisting of professional, that is, living only war or princely warriors who are under one roof and bound by oaths of allegiance with their leader.

It is significant that in his notes on the Gallic war the Germans 'squad, unlike the Gauls (“Solduria”), cannot be discerned, but in Tacitus it already appears distinctly, and the difference between the authors' lives is only 100 years old. So, the military tribal leader of the Cherusks Arminius, who crushed in the 9th century. Roman legions in the Teutonburg Forest, was killed by fellow tribesmen for encroaching on the title of rex, that is, when trying to be not only a military leader (cunning), but also gain public power.


Tip peaks. VI – VII century, with. Poplars (Kharkov region, Ukraine). GIM. Moscow. RF Author photo

The squad is an integral tool for the formation of proto-state relations through violence, but in a situation where Slavic society was unable to bear the additional material burden and lived (surviving) through the acquisition of the surplus product by the war, the squad could not arise. The legendary Cue (ca. VI c.) Wanted to establish a new city on the Danube, being on a campaign with his whole clan (male part), and not with his squad. This just explains the situation when, in the war of Gepids and Lombards, on the side of the Gepids in 547 (or 549), Ildiges fought, having lost the Lombard throne, with "many slaves" from Panonia. After the ceasefire, he fled to the skleps beyond the Danube, and subsequently went on a campaign to help the Goths of Totila at the head of 6 thousand sklavins. In Italy, they defeated the detachments of the Romance commander Lazarus, a little later Ildiges, not connecting with the Goths, went to the slaves.

It is not necessary to say that there couldn’t be people who lived only in the war, or warriors in such numbers, but only a tribal militia could give such a number. Again, a comparison comes with the campaign of the “clan” of Kiy, all the more so as “with the Goths he [Ildiges. - V.E.] did not connect, but crossed the Istrian river and retired to the slaves again. ” Obviously, with all the Slavic militia participating in the campaign and probably fulfilling their task of “enriching” in Italy torn by strife, especially since such a large contingent in Italy is no longer mentioned. For comparison: during this period, in 533, on a campaign in Africa, the Byzantine commander Belisarius had a thousand meruls, Narses brought 2 thousand meruls with him to Italy, which substantially bled the tribe of meruls. In 552, he also hired 5000 Lombards for the war in Italy, who also returned to their home in Pannonia, etc.

Consider another situation that sheds light on the race as a structural unit of Slavic society, including the military.

Justinian II in the 80s of the VII century. He actively fought with the Sklavinia in Europe, after which he organized the resettlement of Slavic tribes (some under duress, others by agreement) in the territory of Asia Minor, in Bithynia, the Opsician theme, on the most important border with the Arabs for the empire. Military settlements were created here, led by the Slavic “prince” Nebul. Only the "selected" army of the Slavs, without wives and children, amounted to 30 thousand soldiers. The presence of such a force gave rise to an unbalanced Justinian II to break the peace with the Arabs and begin hostilities. In 692, the Slavs defeated the Arabs in Second Armenia, but they resorted to tricks and bribed the leader of the Slavs, sending him a quiver full of money, most of his troops (20 thousand) fled to the Arabs, in response to the mentally ill Justinian exterminated the remaining wives and children of the Slavs. The escaped Slavs were settled by the Arabs in Antioch, created new families and made devastating raids and campaigns within Byzantium.

I’m far from asserting that the “kind” is only its male part, but what happened in Asia Minor suggests that the “kind” could be created anew both in Antioch and in the new city on the Danube, as in the case of Kiem, yes, by the way, in the case of the “Russian clan” of the first century of Russian history.

In “Miracles of St. Dmitry Solunsky” a large army is described, which “consisted entirely of selected and experienced warriors”, “the chosen color of the whole Slavic people”, which “surpassed those who had ever fought against them by force and courage”. This detachment of 5 thousand selected Slavic warriors is called by some modern researchers a squad, which is difficult to agree with (both the size of the squad and the existence of it as an institution at that time, according to the arguments given above).

The data that we have about the fighting of the Slavs in the 22th century cannot be interpreted as a joint use of squads and militias: even Samo, who was elected the “king” of a large proto-state association directed against the serious and completely militarized Avar society, did not have a squad . He had XNUMX sons, but not one of them did not inherit the “royal” power, all the more, as one might assume, did not have a squad with which they could compete for power.

Both written, and especially archaeological sources of this period do not allow us to talk about professional squads. And, as S. Ivanov wrote, by the way, a supporter of the emergence of a squad in this period:

"... but such an important element in the formation of the state as the squad is not directly mentioned anywhere."

Which is natural, since the Slavs were at the pre-state stage of development.

Attempts to interpret this structure on the basis of the presence of elements of rich weapons indicated in the sources of the names of leaders and mercenaries have no foundation (Kazan M. M.).


The bit of the Byzantine circle. Visigoths. Spain. VII century Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York. USA. Author photo

Which is quite obvious, since Slavic society was not early state. Opinions about the presence of squads at this time are speculative and based on nothing.

It should be noted that, as at the beginning of the Viking era, militia was not much different from a combatant, unlike the conventional wisdom about “superprofessional” combatants, since a free-howling life was full of dangers and, in fact, seemed like a constant whether preparation for war, or already war: hunting, farming under conditions of possible raids, etc.

With the emergence of the squad (not only the military, but also the “police” institute that collected the tribute), the difference between the squad and a free community member was that the squad only fought, spending time in idleness, and the howl both plowed and fought.

And the last thing that we have already paid attention to in the article in "Slavs on the Danube in the VI century.", according to Procopius of Caesarea, among the Slavs “only God, the creator of lightning, is the lord over all”, there is no talk of Perun as the god of war or the retinue god, as it became in the XNUMXth century. in Russia, when Perun "went through" a certain evolution of development.

Thus, it can be stated that in the early period of Slavic history, within the framework of the social structure, one can observe the beginning of the allocation of military nobility, which is formed during raids and campaigns, but we can’t talk about the formation of princely power, especially as squads , which is at the stage of pre-state or early state, which the Slavs did not have during this period. Of course, it is possible that the head of a tribe or clan might have some kind of “court” as a prototype of a squad, but it is premature to talk about professional squads during this period.

Other structures of the military organization of the early Slavs we will consider in the next article.

Sources and literature:
Adam of Bremen, Helmold from Bosau, Arnold of Lubeck Slavonic chronicles. M., 2011.
Ammianus Marcellinus Roman History. Translation by Yu.A. Kulakovsky and A.I. Sonny. SPb., 2000.
Caesar Guy Julius Notes. Per. M.M. Pokrovsky edited by A.V. Korolenkova. M., 2004.
Procopius of Caesarea. War with the Goths / Translation by S.P. Kondratiev. T.I. M., 1996.
Theophanes the Byzantine. Chronicle of the Byzantine Theophanes from Diocletian to the kings of Michael and his son Theophylact. Priscus of Panius. Tales of Priscus of Penius. Ryazan. 2005.
Codex of ancient written news about the Slavs. T.II. M., 1995.
Alekseev S.V. Slavic Europe of the 5th — 6th centuries. M., 2005.
Gorsky A.A. Old Russian squad (on the history of the genesis of class society and the state in Russia). M., 1989.
Ivanov S. A. Procopius of Caesarea on the military organization of the Slavs // Slavs and their neighbors. Issue 6. Greek and Slavic world in the Middle Ages and early modern times. M., 1996.
Kazan M.M. On the military organization of the Slavs in the V — VII centuries: leaders, professional warriors and archaeological data // “By Fire and Sword” Stratum plus No. 5.
Kovalev S.I. History of Rome. L., 1986.
Sannikov S.V. Images of royal power of the era of the great migration of peoples in West European historiography of the VI century. Novosibirsk 2011.
Fraser J.J. Golden Branch. M., 1980.
Schaveleva N.I. Polish Latin-speaking medieval sources. Texts, translation, comments. M., 1990.
The etymological dictionary of Slavic languages, edited by O. N. Trubachev. Pre-Slavic lexical fund. Vol. 13, M., 1987.


To be continued ...
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  1. Aerodrome 9 March 2020 05: 18 New
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    Was the squad among the early Slavs?
    why are forests so young? were we previously burned with nuclear weapons? But was there an IGO? but in general? UFO who is this? is the earth flat? Is smoking so harmful? maybe "plump" in the morning? maybe not go to work? and do not plant potatoes? why Putin? why? where is the pension? questions ...
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 06: 30 New
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      I will be rude! Airdrome Why are you clearing the clearing of the "history branch", and even in the first comment.
      Go graze in the news, opinions and analytics !!!
      They give medals and stars, but here only pendels. Just answer corny - why !!!?
      I apologize to a respected audience for harsh words!
      1. Catfish 9 March 2020 08: 22 New
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        Greetings, Vlad!
        No need to apologize, everything is right from the first to the last word. hi
      2. Krasnoyarsk 9 March 2020 10: 17 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka

        I will be rude! Aerodromy Why are you clearing the clearing of the "history branch", and even

        Pan, you call this "fortune-telling on coffee grounds" a story?
        What are the "early Slavs"? In what centuries?
        Since the brooch was found on the territory of Ukraine, then it certainly belonged to a Slavic warrior? In this case, by analogy, is “An extremely rare image of armor based on chain mail. A silver Byzantine plate of 629-630,” - since “armor” is depicted on a Byzantine plate, does this mean Byzantine armor? "a bone plate. Orlatskoye cemetery. I – V centuries., Samarkand. Since the image of a quiver with a bow and arrow is in Samarkand, then it does not belong to the" Slavic warrior "? And so on. So, Pan, you read, read and think that you have touched the story.
        With the same success, the works of all writers writing on a historical topic can be attributed to “historical research”.
    2. lucul 9 March 2020 10: 57 New
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      Was the squad among the early Slavs?

      A strange question ... To the author note:
      “The formation of a squad around the ruler took place on the basis of friendship, personal devotion to the leader. The communication of the vigilantes was often equal to the relationship between siblings, and the attachment to the ruler was no weaker than the attachment to the father. On the basis of these principles, the squad was replenished.

      However, much depended on the ruler himself. It happened that the squad refused to serve the dishonest, cowardly ruler.

      The leader, prince, king is perceived by his vigilantes as a father (if age and experience are significantly different) or as an older brother (if age and experience are insignificant). Especially for the feasts of the squad, there was a large bowl called the brother. This name arose for a reason - the cup was filled with a drink (honey, for example) and passed “from brother to brother”. From the “eldest brother” - the prince, leader, king to the “little brothers” - warriors. In fact, the warriors were tied together by bonds, which were sometimes stronger than blood kinship. And the basis of these bonds is personal devotion to the leader, his personality (at the beginning) and the Motherland (later).
      High-ranking relations are not only between the “leader” and the “combatant”. They happen between two “warriors” or two “leaders”. This is always mutual assistance, which occurs on the basis of personal affection and mutual respect. For example, when a soldier defends his wounded comrade to the last. He will not receive any self-interest from his actions. Moreover, it is likely that he himself will die. But he still protects. The same goes for BP relations between leaders. They come to each other to the rescue during the war, as they are connected by bonds of fidelity to each other.

      Since no relationship can be one-sided, the other side - that is, that which is served, followed by, always takes mutual steps. In addition to moral satisfaction with one’s work, results, a person received an answer to devotion to a personality or idea, received fame, honor, respect. This, of course, if you do not take into account the fatherly or fraternal love of the “leader” for his “warriors”.

      I repeat once again. One who was faithful to the idea, deed, person, received honor, respect and glory. It was these phenomena that were the "reward" to those who participated in BP relations.
      Material values ​​in BP could also take place and most often were. The generosity of the ruler in relation to the warriors was the equivalent of fidelity to the warriors in relation to the leader. The leader was charged with moral duty to present treasures to his warriors. It is not for nothing that in the sagas the kungs were called "ring-healers", meaning by "rings" treasures in general. Why did I write “in a moral obligation”? Because it was not a condition of service like "I serve you sixty-one days, and for this I get thirty shillings." Not at all like that. The squad gave all the best 100%, not claiming a reward. You simply cannot expect anything else from a person who is personally devoted to the leader. And the leader, in turn, paternally refers to the combatant and therefore gives him part of his treasures. The leader could give not thirty shillings, but three hundred. And he could give ten. And the warrior would still serve him. This is not a bargain, not a "give for a give", but a kind of exchange of gifts. The warrior gives the leader his service, and the leader of the warrior gives respect, honor and treasure. Which, by the way, were considered not so much material values ​​as a sign of luck of both the leader and the warrior. "
      1. vladcub 9 March 2020 12: 47 New
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        Actually, the proto-state is a controversial topic, which means that both your version and the author’s version are acceptable
        1. Sergey79 9 March 2020 14: 42 New
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          Totally agree with you. The first question is what is the state? Thanks to the author for the article, but there are moments that are difficult to agree with. The author writes that the conclusions of Soviet scientists are erroneous, since there is no confirmation. And then he makes the opposite conclusion (so wanted) ... The topic is very interesting. Only the request is HUGE, do not apply double standards. I explain. If we look at the democracy of ancient Greece (Sparta) and call it the state, then what is worse than democracy and the state of the Slavs ?! But in general, the author’s description is very similar to the way of life of the Cossack army .... The same separation of powers, the same hierarchy, the same elective basis ... A SEPARATE REQUEST TO THE AUTHOR, MAKING YOUR PERSONAL CONCLUSIONS, DO NOT ENTER THEM IN THE “DOGMAT” . Perhaps you will have (have) students and they will remove the words "maybe", "probably", etc.
  2. Mavrikiy 9 March 2020 05: 36 New
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    In the early Slavs, the chins were not braced, under a woman, definitely. This is after contact with Byzantium.
    1. Insurgent 9 March 2020 08: 39 New
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      Quote: Mavrikiy
      In the early Slavs, the chins were not braced, under a woman, definitely. This is after contact with Byzantium.

      But is it "after contacts with Byzantium", Vladimir the Great, the baptist of Russia, or his son Yaroslav, who is Wise, shaved his beard?

      1. vladcub 9 March 2020 13: 03 New
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        Insurgent, I doubt that the figure specifically is Vladimir the Baptist. The crown confuses me: in Kievan Rus there were none. I admit that the picture appeared a century later
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 13: 32 New
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        One of the earliest descriptions of the appearance of Slavic princes was reflected in the work of the Byzantine chronicler Leo Deacon, who in his History left us a description of the appearance of Prince Svyatoslav Igorevich at a meeting with Emperor John Tzimiskesy after the conclusion of a peace treaty near Doristol in 971

        After the approval of the peace treaty, Sfendoslav (Svyatoslav) asked the emperor for permission to meet with him for a conversation. The sovereign did not evade and, covered in gilded armor, rode astride the coast of Istra, leading behind him a large detachment of armed horsemen gleaming in gold. Sfendoslav also appeared, sailing along the river in the Scythian boat; he sat on oars and rowed with his close ones, no different from them. Here's what his appearance was: of moderate growth, not too tall and not very short, with furry eyebrows and light blue eyes, snub-nosed, beardless, with thick, excessively long hair over his upper lip. His head was completely bare, but on one side of it hung a tuft of hair - a sign of nobility; strong neck, wide chest and all other parts of the body are quite proportionate, but he looked moody and wild. In one ear he wore a golden earring; it was adorned with a carbuncle framed by two pearls. His robe was white and differed from his confidants only in cleanliness. Sitting in a boat on a rower bench, he talked a little with the sovereign about the conditions of the world and left. So ended the war of the Romans with the Scythians (Slavs)

        Leo Deacon. Story. Translation M. M. Kopylenko. Publishing House "Science". M., 1988
        That is, the first Russian princes did not wear beards, or wearing them was optional!
        1. vladcub 9 March 2020 14: 41 New
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          I’m talking about: late artist’s fantasy
        2. Trilobite Master 9 March 2020 15: 13 New
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          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          One of the earliest descriptions of the appearance of the Slavic princes was reflected in the work of the Byzantine chronicler Leo Deacon

          I’m not trying to challenge the accuracy of the description of Svyatoslav’s appearance (especially since we don’t have another smile ), but still I’ll give the opinion of Igor Danilevsky, who found in this description a complete tracing-paper from Attila’s description, actually “copy-paste”, and put forward the hypothesis that the description of Svyatoslav is fictitious, or rather, may not correspond to reality, since the Deacon didn’t The goal is to give us an idea of ​​his appearance. The purpose of the Deacon in this case, according to Danilevsky, could be precisely the drawing of a historical parallel between Svyatoslav and Attila - the pagans, who caused great harm to the empire, "equating" one with another.
          This is how we, describing, for example, Dmitro Yarosh, would write something like "he has a clearly visible bang on his side and a black mustache under his nose."
          So ... questions remain with Svyatoslav’s appearance, especially since the described portrait completely “fights” neither the Slavs nor the Scandinavians, but it reminds one of the steppe’s portrait.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 15: 41 New
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            Svyatoslav went on horseback trips. He had in the allies of the Pechenegs, a wife from the Ugrians. Could he accept the customs of the steppe?
            Could, but here we must approach it carefully.
            1. I am ready to believe that Svyatoslav, if he had a desire, used the following range of things: weapons, armor, jewelry, clothes. That is, of all the elements of the description - one earring in the ear!
            2. The deacon describes the behavioral norms and external markers of Svyatoslav (crib along with everyone, simple in clothes). This proves that he was an eyewitness to the events.
            3. Why should the chronicler lie? He makes a number of real mistakes in the description of the Slavs (calling them Scythians), including in the name of Svyatoslav (Sfendalf). But these miscalculations are the norm. Descriptions of the rigidity of the "Slavs, the people grew" were before him and after. To draw a parallel with Attila, I think more than a far-fetched trick. Show the meaning of victory? So there and so twisted so, the devil breaks his leg. I do not believe.
            4. Well, the last, the presence of a forelock, which annoys the modern Russian public. So let's remember one moment, Russia will be baptized only with his son!
            And the donkeys wear the Ibn-Fadenna Rus.
            1. Trilobite Master 9 March 2020 16: 10 New
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              The fact is that the “parallels with Attila” are so textually similar that they cannot be just a coincidence. This is exactly what Danilevsky rests against - he finds a lot of parallels in various texts and believes that they are completely random. In his opinion, chroniclers and chroniclers did not try to accurately and accurately record events in their writings, but only tried to convey their own perception of these events, the way they saw and understood them. Given that people in those days thought a little differently than we do now, it is often difficult to understand them correctly.
              For the ancients, the main measure was served by two main basic positions - the experience of ancestors and religious experience, it was from these positions that they considered all the events that happened to them, and all assessments were given in relation to these moral guidelines.
              Svyatoslav is the same antichrist as Attila, as the Deacon emphasized in his description. He did not try to deceive someone, he tried to convey his opinion to the reader.
              I want to emphasize that I myself do not fully share Danilevsky’s position, but at the same time I think that it is very useful to know them and understand them. Thanks to this interpretation of the sources, many annalistic "absurdities" acquire a completely logical and harmonious understanding.
              Recently, an auxiliary historical discipline such as “historical psychology” was born. I have not yet come across fundamental, unifying works on this subject, perhaps they simply do not exist yet, but it would be interesting to get acquainted with them. smile
        3. Astra wild 9 March 2020 16: 10 New
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          Kotya, one of my colleagues is allergic to cats. So I can understand your minus
        4. Sergey79 9 March 2020 20: 33 New
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          Or another conclusion ... The first Russian princes were Scythians ... Or another conclusion, Scythians = Slavs (Russians) ....
  3. rich 9 March 2020 06: 03 New
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    Words similar in meaning and sounding to the words “friend” and “squad” existed in some European languages: Old English (drihtin), Old Norwegian (dróttin) Icelandic (drótt) and others. It is believed that they all descended from the proto-German druhtinaz - an army, a gang that exists due to the military production of the leader.
    In a dueling period, a team is not connected with the land, but only exclusively with the prince. Entry into the squad and exit from it are free: a warrior dissatisfied with the prince can always leave him and go to another.
    The earliest written mention of the Russian squad is found in Ibn-Fadlan dated 922 - "together with the Prince of Kiev" in his wooden castle are 400 free men from among the warriors, his associates. Not all of them are Rus, there are Varangians and Moravians, and Finns, and Turks, and Poles, and Hungarians, and Khozars ... "
    The early Slavs simply could not have a squad as such. IMHO it was most likely a tribal militia collected on occasion.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 07: 54 New
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      Dear Rich The author raised a super interesting topic for discussion !!!
      Up to Prince Yaroslav, the supreme power of the Old Russian state operates with a militia! Hence the "Byzantine hysteria" about the "tens of thousands of Slavs" later the "Rus, the people grew" invading the empire. Let this information be divided by an order of magnitude, but the numbers are impressive. From 10 to 60 thousand armed husbands! The maximum effect from the use of militias was to have a consequence on the fracture of the tribal system. Undermining the patriarchal tribal system, the emergence of private property, the possibility of a social “elevator”, etc. The consequence of this is the emergence of a motivated human resource ready to “go rob”!
      I dare to suggest that it was this factor that allowed Svyatoslav to win victories in Khazaria, Bulgaria and Byzantium for many years!
      Now to the squad! If you do not touch other Slavs, but dwell only on the eastern, who later formed the Old Russian state, then I assume that in this case it is possible to directly borrow the armed-police-judicial institute of the "squad" from the Goths or the Scandinavians! The specifics of the functioning of the Russian proto-state at an early stage is unique!
      Implementation of state mechanisms (court, taxes) was carried out by annual detour of controlled territories
      Prince with neighbors (squad). Is it not from here that the "legs" of understanding the princely institute of power "table", "feeding"! That is, at some stage, the tribal unions of the Eastern Slavs come to the realization of the need for a permanent military leader (prince). In the summer he goes on campaigns with a militia from childbirth, where he feeds himself and feeds the Rodovtsy. In winter, he goes on a visit to the ice, where he cows (feeds) himself, with his retinue.
      This has something in common with Edward's thesis.

      Thus, the initial, main hypostasis of the head of the clan was the priestly function as the realization of the connection of society with the gods.

      Initially, the elders exercised their spiritual and secular functions in the clans and tribes, without waving the military authority. Since there was no importance of this need. The power of the leader was elective and urgent in time. A military leader could be called up (hired) and he operated on a militia (all men of a clan or tribe capable of holding weapons). Where does the tradition of naming a leader kagan (prince) come from? If there is an opportunity to hire a Prince, why not call him with his neighbors?
      Now I'm a little anticipating Edward.
      For example, the called Rurik could be an ordinary "mercenary." Then the conflict of the latter with Vadim Khrabory (the brave) becomes obvious - apparently an elected Slovenian military leader. Now we think, could the tribal union of Slovenia, Chud, etc. accept a similar situation? Yes, it is easy, Rurik and his descendants could not, in their understanding, encroach on the local clan and spiritual authority. And as an intertribal military leader, he is needed, in view of the increased threats.
      A similar tracing-paper of division, military, civil and spiritual authority we later observe on Novgorod land! See Vladimir Svyatoslavovich, Yaroslav Vladimirovich, Alexander Nevsky!
      The only thing that the elders did not take into account was not taken into account - this is the collapse of a tribal society !!!
      By the way, it is also necessary to note the "truly Nordic calm of the Slavs" who is their prince, while understanding that without a prince (military leader), well, no way!
      So in the annals, Askold and Dir, Oleg and Yaropolk are trivially cut, and the “drum” for the population! The main thing is that the prince was, and whose family he is - this is secondary! This approach cuts, purely on the female side, Olga, later seeks the adoption of Christianity.
      Now about the ambitions of the Rurikovich! I will not touch on the topic of what nationality was Rurik (I am convinced that the descendant is Ready). The names of the second children of the first Rurikovich are constantly associated with Oleg and Olga (Helga) - prophetic, priest, sacred !!! This is natural, if Rurik led the squad (neighbors, clan and court), then among the latter there should have been an institution of appeal to pagan gods. So why don't the second person of the kind lead it! At the same time, until the time of Vladimir Svyatoslavovich, there is no way to encroach on the religion of the tribal union! And then the first attempt, to raise the authority of Perun, crashes, I had to shred Korsun and adopt Christianity !!!
      Phew, I’m tired of everybody! Thank you all, your Vlad !!!
      1. svp67 9 March 2020 09: 38 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Institute "squads" from the Goths or the Scandinavians!

        And if "take a shovel wider, and most importantly dig deeper"? And remember, for example, Sparta. There, too, there was a division into civilian "government" and military kings who had "their own" armed detachments. The same Tsar Leonid, precisely at the head of such a detachment, fought in 300 soldiers near Thermopylae.
      2. Krasnoyarsk 9 March 2020 10: 41 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        A military leader could be called up (hired) and he operated on a militia (all men of a clan or tribe capable of holding weapons).

        I am embarrassed to ask, what is a militia? A militia is what is going to help a regular army, i.e. - squad. And if the squad does not exist? Do you know what expression means - a cropped division? Can it be called a militia?
        So, among the Slavs, and not only, before the appearance of a regular army (squad), all men were soldiers. Everyone had weapons and knew how to use them, and, of course, there were also appointed or elected commanders. (By analogy - the chief ataman, the chief ataman) Otherwise, the tribe would not have survived. Therefore, to call it a militia does not turn the tongue. This is called an irregular army.
        1. vladcub 9 March 2020 13: 40 New
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          I agree: the term "militia" is not entirely appropriate. Actually, we are trying to operate with modern terms, and as those units were actually called, we can only guess ..
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 13: 59 New
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          Krasnoyarsk, I apologize for contacting Nick!
          Under the word militia, I mean the concept of all men of a tribe (clan), or even a tribal alliance capable of holding arms to defend their land.
          Edin and I consider the team in the article as a military-police system (apparatus) of state administration. Exactly what she was like at the moment of her climax in the era of Kievan Rus!
          The minimum set of such a princely table (court) is the presence of: nurseries, gridneys, swordsmen and boyars.
          Neither do I, Edward, deny that the notion of a squad in the Slavic community appeared much earlier, but these were just neighbors, friends of the military leader, and not the state apparatus of coercion!
          If on your fingers, to understand the process of the emergence of the Old Russian state, it is important to grasp the moment, the collapse of the tribal community and the emergence of the coercive apparatus (in the case of the Eastern Slavs - the prince and the squad). In the case of our ancestors, we observe a series of fundamental anomalies that led to a delay in the process of the final formation of Russian statehood. Moreover, the very process of finding the Eastern Slavs in the state of the Proto-state (when there are prerequisites for its formation, but there is no complete set of signs of statehood) has a number of exceptional historical events, which allows us to put forward an irrepressible set of versions about the moment our Fatherland was created, as well as about the contribution of specific individuals to it creation!
          The funny thing is that this theory does not fit into any theory of the chroniclers and falkhistorists!
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. Krasnoyarsk 9 March 2020 14: 23 New
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            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Rasnoyarsk, I apologize for contacting Nick!

            It's okay.
            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Under the word militia I mean the concept of all men of the tribe

            I could agree with you, but ... I can’t. I'll try to clarify.
            A militia is, as you correctly write, all men capable of using weapons, but ... weapons that receive them, if necessary, from the "authorities" at the moment when they actually become a militia. Those. able to use weapons gathered WEAPONS and formed from them a kind of military unit.
            In our case, the men HAVE a weapon, they know who will lead them in battle, whether it will be, using the terms of the Cossacks, the ataman, the ataman, or the sorcerer, it does not matter. Of these, it is not necessary to form a combat unit, a priori it already exists. Therefore, I like it more - the irregular army.
            Compare; Cossacks-the militia? Or is it an irregular army?
            Sincerely, Vladimir.
            1. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 16: 01 New
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              You confuse two things - the principle of formation of troops and the method of warfare.
              According to the formation, there were personnel (professional) units and there were “conscripts from the reserve” - militias.
              Both that and others could be both regular (fighting in a regular formation) and Ir regular - fighting without a formation. Examples of Irregular troops - hussars, huntsmen
              1. Krasnoyarsk 12 March 2020 16: 12 New
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                Quote: Florian Geyer

                You confuse two things - the principle of formation of troops and the method of warfare.

                I don’t even talk about it. If you carefully read my comments, you will see that we, with opponents, find out: - The princely squad is the essence - a regular army? The ancient Slavs, before the appearance of princely squads, what was - an irregular army, or a militia?
                1. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 16: 40 New
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                  Pancake. Express yourself more simply. Not “regular” but “professional” and “amateur”, otherwise you will be pecked and stomped, regular-irregular for a military man is not where the fighters came from and where they got their weapons, but the methods by which they fight.
                  For example, the hussars of 1812 were professionals, many nobles, all their lives in the army - Irregular military operations were conducted.
                  The reverse example is the Leningrad Bottom. By forces and means they surpassed any personnel division of Rkka and showed amazing combat stability. Neither near Luga nor near Kingisepp, the Germans passed through them, but broke through cadets and cadres. Then they were renamed into ordinary divisions and assigned a guard name
                  1. Krasnoyarsk 12 March 2020 17: 19 New
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                    Quote: Florian Geyer
                    Pancake. Express yourself more simply.

                    I accept the comment. Thank.
        3. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 16: 49 New
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          Conventionally, the squad of those times in our opinion would be called simply - a gang. A group of dudes, lazy before work, got bored around godfather, and rob everyone around. 10-20 people. What can they do if the whirlpool wakes up? Prince Igor’s fate hints that it’s difficult to rob someone by hanging in half on two birches. For there is nothing to eat in two throats.
          1. Krasnoyarsk 12 March 2020 17: 30 New
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            Quote: Florian Geyer
            Conventionally, the squad of those times in our opinion would be called simply - a gang.

            I can not agree with you. And that's why. The prince is power. And military, and judicial and economic. And she, power, as we understand it, is a necessity.
            And the example of Igor, well, this is an example of exceeding power, say, of official authority. Toad crushed. It happens to everyone?
            1. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 17: 51 New
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              How to say. Subjectively - I’ve always fluttered here and somehow fought back. Why do I need this power that comes and says - now you are under my roof, pay
              Objectively, yes, as a Marxist I cannot but agree. Dialectics, her mother's leg
              So we mastered the north and - who did not want to pay went into the woods
              1. Krasnoyarsk 12 March 2020 19: 43 New
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                Quote: Florian Geyer
                Dialectics, her mother's leg

                Where without her, darling.
                Quote: Florian Geyer

                So we mastered the north and - who did not want to pay went into the woods

                So everyone mastered everything. There is nothing new under the sun.
      3. Sergey79 9 March 2020 21: 11 New
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        then I suppose that in this case it is possible to directly borrow the armed-police-judicial institute of the “squad” from the Goths or the Scandinavians! And why not vice versa? Scandinavian historians say that it could be the other way around ....
        1. Sergey79 9 March 2020 21: 12 New
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          Sincerely. I don’t know how to properly mark text.
    2. Krasnoyarsk 9 March 2020 10: 21 New
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      Quote: Rich

      The early Slavs simply could not have a squad as such. IMHO it was most likely a tribal militia collected on occasion.

      What about the evidence? Or - the main thing is to crow, and there, though do not dawn.
      1. rich 9 March 2020 11: 24 New
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        Quote: Krasnoyarsk:
        I am embarrassed to ask, what is a militia? A militia is what is going to help a regular army, i.e. - squad.

        belay laughing
        If you do not know. what is the militia, then do not invent a gag and pass it off as truth yes
        There are quite definite interpretations of this word. For example, in the military encyclopedia of the USSR:
        Militia, formerly Militia - a term applied to:
        1. tribal militia - an armed formation of a tribe, consisting of all adult men led by the head of the tribe; members of the tribal militia did not receive a salary;
        2. The national militia - the armed forces of a number of states, mainly historical - ancient Greek, ancient Italian policies and medieval Russian principalities. The militia could include all adult citizens of the state, at the head of the militia was the commander in chief appointed by the bearer of supreme power (people, aristocratic council, prince, monarch). Members of the militia could receive a salary. Corresponds to the modern national guard of a number of capitalist countries;
        3. spontaneous militias - the formation of the people to protect themselves from enemies;
        4. state militia - in the Russian Empire, the reserve of armed forces, which was convened only during the war, had an auxiliary value and was composed of people who had served under the banners and in reserve or, for whatever reasons, were relieved of service in the standing forces, but physically fit for military affairs. The state militia in the Russian Empire corresponded to a landscape in Germany and Austria, and in England to the police.

        Such elementary truths, Krasnoyarsk, as a rule, are given in VU, but for those who have not studied there, there is an Internet:
        you type in the search engine "militia" and read on health yes

        Do you need any other evidence? laughing
        1. Krasnoyarsk 9 March 2020 13: 58 New
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          Quote: Rich
          Do you need any other evidence?

          No, not required. I rely more on logic.
          Therefore, an irregular army is more suitable for the forerunner of the state.
          1. rich 9 March 2020 15: 51 New
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            wink
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk:
            I rely more on logic.
            Therefore, an irregular army is more suitable for the forerunner of the state.

            How is everything running? You are definitely civilian. Well it doesn’t matter. The trouble is that you are trying to impose on others something that you yourself absolutely do not understand
            In order for there to be an irregular army, you must at least have a regular one. This is an axiom. Any first-year cadet knows this. yes
            Let us turn to the great Soviet encyclopedia:
            irregular troops - troops that either do not have a firm and permanent organization or in their manning, service, training, and uniforms are significantly different from regular troops, for example, carrying urgent state military service, having a uniform, weapons, ranks, standards and insignia Cossacks They were considered irregular troops only because they differed from the company-battalion regimental manning of regular troops by hundred-regiment manning.

            And this is generally a masterpiece: yes
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk:
            I am embarrassed to ask, what is a militia? A militia is what is going to help a regular army, i.e. - squad.

            Druzhina - regular army belay Famouslyfellow Look at your leisure what a regular army is. You will be pleasantly surprised
            In your opinion, the squad carried urgent military service, had a uniform, weapons, had structural acquisition? Not at all. The warriors were not attached to the prince, they wanted to go to another. Anytime. No one held. Each dressed and armed himself at his discretion. today there are 200 people in the squad, tomorrow 10, or even nobody at all. Have you heard of the holy Great Martyr Prince Gleb? So the squad simply left him and went to another prince to seek a better share. wink
            1. Krasnoyarsk 9 March 2020 18: 41 New
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              Quote: Rich

              The trouble is that you are trying to impose on others something that you yourself absolutely do not understand

              Why are you so aggressive? It is you who are imposing your opinion on me. I do not impose my opinion on anyone, I only express it.
              I will ask you a simple question - Cossacks - a regular army, an irregular army, a militia?
              I draw your attention to the fact that if there is no military action, then each Cossack is engaged in his own economy, as soon as a military threat arises, an army immediately appears (!). You are our expert, and you are friends with the encyclopedia.
              Quote: Rich
              Druzhina- regular army famously

              But is it a mercenary army that is a militia? But the squad is a hired army. Therefore, it is regular. And the fact that the warrior was free to leave does not prove that the squad is not a regular army. You would make friends with logic.
              1. rich 10 March 2020 09: 04 New
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                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                But the squad is a hired army. Therefore, it is regular. You would make friends with logic

                You need to make friends with logic, because the first regular army in Russia appeared only in 1550. Before that, it simply did not exist. laughing
                Before the creation of a regular army, the sovereign convened boyar and noble children during a campaign - the so-called noble militia, which in peacetime were on their estates. At the request of the ruler, they arrived at the service, accompanied by the boyar peasants. In practice, quickly assembling such an army was a rather problematic task. And in 1550, Tsar Ivan IV (reigned from 1533 to 1584) created the first regular army in the history of Russia of 3000 archers. Archers were armed with squeakers, sabers and two-handed axes - berdysh. Uniform equipment consisted of a caftan, a hat and high boots. The treasury supplied them with everything necessary, even food. Regulars received a high salary for those times. The head of the Streltsy regiment was led, followed by centurions, Pentecostals, and forefathers. Each regiment wore caftans of a certain color and had its own number, which depended on the status of the regiment (below the number it was more prestigious). The first regiment was called stirrup; in battle it was always near the king (his stirrups had bodyguards). From 1 to 5 regiments, the most prestigious, were stationed in Moscow. The size of the regular troops increased very rapidly. In the last years of the reign of Ivan the Terrible, the number of archers reached 12000 .. With the advent of the regular army, the noble militia lost the status of the main army and was considered irregular. "TSB 3rd Edition

                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                I will ask you a simple question - Cossacks - a regular army, an irregular army, a militia?
                I draw your attention to the fact that if there is no military action, then each Cossack is engaged in his own economy, as soon as a military threat arises, an army immediately appears (!).

                You as usual mixed warm with soft. And you just don’t even understand the meaning. Cossack troops are one thing, and the armed formations of these troops are another.
                I will turn to TSB 3rd Edition in another way you just do not understand no
                The Cossack army is a territory belonging to persons of the Cossack estate or status entered in the Register, living on it, and collectively taking over this territory under the right of "The highest gift of land and water"
                In various periods of history, the following Cossack troops were part of the Russian Empire:

                Azov Cossack army;
                Astrakhan Cossack army;
                Bashkir army;
                Bug Cossack army;
                Volga Cossack army;
                Danube army;
                Don Army;
                Ekaterinoslav Cossack army;
                Zaporizhzhya army;
                Caucasian line army;
                Kalmyk army;
                Kuban Cossack army;
                Orenburg Cossack army;
                Semirechye army;
                Iset Cossack army;
                Siberian linear Cossack army;
                Terek Cossack army;
                Ussuri Cossack army;
                Ural Cossack army;
                Black Sea Cossack army;
                Transbaikal Cossack army;
                and others.

                Answer your question - Cossacks - regular army, irregular army, militia ?. Cossacks are an estate of the Russian Empire.
                On the Cossack formations, I already answered you above, but if you read inattentively, I will repeat
                Let us turn again to the great Soviet encyclopedia:
                irregular troops - troops that either do not have a firm and permanent organization or in their manning, service, training, and uniforms are significantly different from regular troops. considered irregular troops only because they differed from the company-battalion regimental manning of regular troops by hundred-regiment manning.


                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                You are our expert, and you are friends with the encyclopedia.

                But how else to explain if you do not understand primitive things?
                All the best hi
                1. Krasnoyarsk 10 March 2020 12: 45 New
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                  Quote: Rich

                  You need to make friends with logic, because the first regular army in Russia appeared only in 1550. Before that, it simply did not exist.

                  I will try to make friends with logic.
                  So. Ivan-4 took certain people for his CONTENT and WEAPONS.
                  That is, a regular army is the people whom the GREAT PRINCE (king) feeds, watered, dresses, shoes and arm. The main occupation of which, in peacetime, was - training in military affairs (possession of weapons) and service. In their free time, they were free to "grow cabbage" in their gardens. Because they had no barracks.
                  Now tell me - how did the princely warriors differ from the mentioned archers of Ivan-4? I will help you - only in numbers. The warriors were similarly kept and armed with the prince.
                  Quote: Rich
                  Cossack troops are one thing, and the armed formations of these troops are another.

                  A masterpiece! Do you even understand what you wrote?
                  Quote: Rich
                  Cossacks were considered irregular troops only because they differed from the company-battalion regiment manning of regular troops by hundred-regiment manning.

                  Bullshit! And in the regular troops, cavalry units were formed on a hundred-regimental basis.
                  Irregular troops are therefore irregular because they are not in a barracks position, and the Cossacks were also obliged at their own expense to acquire personal weapons (a saber, carbine) and a horse.
                  How is this different from the "armed forces" of the tribe?
                  You just do not hesitate to believe what is written, but I'm trying to understand - what is written?
                  And all the best to you hi
                  1. rich 10 March 2020 15: 19 New
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                    Quote Krasnoyarsk: A masterpiece! Do you even understand what you wrote?

                    Naturally understand, because in the subject smile But you seem not. laughing Carry a gag, you correct, referring to the renewable energy and TSB. You reject. Well, just like Sharikov laughing

                    Quote Krasnoyarsk: Cossacks were also obliged at their own expense to acquire personal weapons (a saber, carbine) and a horse.

                    Not only personal weapons and horses, but according to Article 415 of the Charter of the military service of the Republic of Ingushetia, both uniforms and equipment and forage yes But the Cossacks in the Republic of Ingushetia belonged to a special estate and in respect of them special military service rules were applied that were different from the rules for all other classes. Persons belonging to the Cossack estate, military service was carried out exclusively in Cossack regiments and batteries
                    Cossacks were divided into categories:
                    1. Preparatory discharge. Age from 20 to 21 years.
                    2. Construction discharge. Age from 21 years to 33 years
                    3. Spare discharge. Age from 33 to 38 years.
                    4.Removed discharge. Age over 38 years.
                    So Cossacks of 1-3 categories according to Article 1457 of the Charter received from the treasury to cover these expenses 100 rubles per year per person. For 1913 this is a pretty decent amount yes And if there are several Cossacks in the family? In addition, according to Article 913 of the same Charter, serving Cossacks of 1-3 categories received in peacetime -3 rubles. per month single, and 3 rubles. per month +50 kopecks. for each member of the family of a serviceman - family. In wartime, this amount doubled. In addition, the Cossacks of 4 categories relied pension -1 rubles. per month. Cossacks who received active service, or during training camps injured, sick, or injured, receive a pension of 3 rubles per month for life, and the family of the deceased in active military service or during training camps, 6 rubles per month for life. yes
                    For comparison - the army lieutenant received in 1913 - 82 rubles per month yes
                    Quote Krasnoyarsk: Bullshit! And in the regular troops, cavalry units were formed on a hundred-regimental basis.

                    That is, about the squadrons in the regular cavalry units, the general from the Internet also does not know: belay Yes!!! It is difficult to argue about the taste of pineapple with those who did not eat it (s) laughing
                    1. Krasnoyarsk 10 March 2020 19: 16 New
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                      Quote: Rich

                      Not only personal weapons and horses, but according to Article 415 of the Charter of the military service of the Republic of Ingushetia, both uniforms and equipment and forage

                      You would also bring, for evidence of your innocence, paragraphs of the charter of the Red Army or the SA. And what? Okay.
                      You have lost the essence of what caused the dispute.
                      And here is the point; 1. Were the clan, community, tribe armed groups? Someone says no! And I say yes! Otherwise, the Rus would cease to exist at an early stage of its development. What were these “formations”? “All men of the tribe who are capable of using one weapon or another.” Then someone claims that the Slavs did not have weapons. This cannot be by definition. The Russians survived in difficult conditions, saved themselves, defended their right to life with the help of WEAPONS. At each stage of its development, the weapons were different. Rather, the same, but more perfect and more perfect. This is called weapon evolution. And it doesn’t matter what it was; borrowing someone else's experience in making it, or their "kulibins" improved it.
                      We do not know when the very concept of "Cossacks" appeared. But we know that they were not dependent on the "central authorities." Remember - "There is no extradition from the Don." But did they defend themselves? Protected! And not only that, they also attacked. What were their "military formations"? Yes, the same as the tribe - all men are capable of owning weapons.
                      Therefore, your references to the "charters" are inappropriate. We are not talking about a “new history," we are talking about our ancestors.
                      Then a dispute arose - the prince's squad - the essence - a regular army? I say yes!
                      And I compare the evidence presented by you of the regular army of Ivan-4 with the princely squad. No differences other than numbers. But we understand that the number depends on the "gold reserve" of the prince, and the king too. It’s just that the king had more of it.
                      But you modestly miss this and go to the "squadron". Well, yes, there was such a combat unit. But this, too, is not a "company-battalion", but a half-squadron-squadron-division, therefore your statements with the TSB that "the Cossacks were considered irregular troops only because they differed from the company-battalion regiment manning of regular troops by hundred-regiment manning." Following this logic, all cavalry units of the Republic of Ingushetia are irregular troops, because they do not have company-battalion-regimental manning.
                      And again, I, citing the example of the Cossacks, had in mind, and you could not understand this, the early Cossacks, since it was about the "early Slavs", but you were dragged into evidence of your innocence by the Cossacks of the Republic of Ingushetia, those who were on service to the king.
                      That's what it is about. So prove to me that I am wrong in my statements. That the tribe did not have military strength, that the tribe did not have weapons, that the squad was not a regular army, and that the militia was not going to help the squad (regular army).
                      1. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 16: 14 New
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                        Pancake. Where does such knowledge come from? Are you completely unaware of how troops were formed?
                        The same Cossacks were supposed to have only a horse, and a saber, a firearm and other equipment were stored centrally and issued when entering the war.
                        And the tribal militia was created in much the same way, taking into account the fact that among the Slavs and Germans it was EXCLUSIVELY HORSE. Which, by the way, is not bad, because any attack of the cavalry on the combat-ready infantry led to the beating of the cavalry
                      2. Krasnoyarsk 12 March 2020 17: 17 New
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                        Quote: Florian Geyer

                        0
                        Pancake. Where does such knowledge come from? Are you completely unaware of how troops were formed?

                        This is called - without knowing the ford, climbed into the water. You did not understand the essence of the dispute, but all the same.
                  2. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 18: 01 New
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                    Uh, do not forget that at least 1/2 for the Cossacks went to equipment from the "sexual reserves" and they were given firearms on the spot.
                    By the way, you know how the Red Cossacks recognized the whites (about tails this is an old joke and not true)
              2. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 18: 07 New
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                We forgot about the "regimental chests"?
          2. vladcub 9 March 2020 19: 53 New
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            There was a banal treason
        2. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 16: 07 New
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          The tribal militia is quite a regular army for those times. What do you need for "regularity"?
          The Life Guards Hussar Regiment was also irregular troops, and the Army Dragoon Regiment recruited from peasants (such as G. Zhukov) was regular
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 14: 02 New
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        Rich is beautiful !!!
        Still a little, and I will be in love with you !!! love
        Slightly distorted the "Wedding in Robin"!
        Sincerely, Vlad!
        1. vladcub 9 March 2020 14: 45 New
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          Original: "and why am I so in love with you" Popandopalo tells Yarinkin’s father
  • Korsar4 9 March 2020 06: 13 New
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    Thanks, Edward. Interesting. Do you put an equal sign between glades and poles?
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 06: 35 New
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      Not just interesting, some kind of “shikerdos”, as my daughter puts it !!!
      A little more and I would begin to squeak with pleasure reading the lines of Edward!
      R.s. According to the drawing, he made us all - (did not paint the background)! laughing good belay
      To the horseshoes, chtoli prikopit! winked just kidding! wink
      1. 3x3zsave 9 March 2020 06: 43 New
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        To the horse! Yes, and the landscape is some kind of hepatitis ... laughing
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 08: 27 New
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          Quote: 3x3zsave
          To the horse! Yes, and the landscape is some kind of hepatitis ... laughing

          Hi Anton, the most important thing is not to dig - the sun, sky and sand !!! Damn and not one dugout !!! no
          1. 3x3zsave 9 March 2020 09: 58 New
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            "White Sun of the Desert"
            I traveled from Eilat to Jerusalem, there is no sand there, only a stone.
            1. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 19: 09 New
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              "White Sun of the Desert"

              That's right, only this is the area of ​​Antioch))) there were events hi
              1. 3x3zsave 9 March 2020 19: 21 New
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                Hmm, even so ... In those days it was supposed to be not very hot and green enough. The northern hemisphere has just begun to move away from the Late Antique ice age.
                1. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 19: 48 New
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                  "I see it")))
                  1. 3x3zsave 9 March 2020 19: 54 New
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                    Yes, I’m not bringing criticism, Edward! Last time I noted that entourage is much more difficult to reproduce than clothing and weapons.
                    And your "vision" impresses me very much, I feel the Wangogov notes!
                    1. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 20: 01 New
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                      And your "vision" impresses me very much, I feel the Wangogov notes!

                      Flattered
                      I don’t argue good
                      Somehow it inspired - I wanted such a flavor, but weak, weak on the topic of surroundings, I admit. hi
                      1. 3x3zsave 9 March 2020 20: 20 New
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                        Yes, quit it! Probably, in any drawing of McBride, a narrow specialist, whether it be a nerd, a geologist or an architect, will find inconsistencies, let alone Sheps.
                        What you do artistically without having the appropriate education is wonderful !!!
                        By the way, Van Gogh suffered from an inferiority complex all his life, he believed that he had not received a classical art education, had no right to draw.
                  2. vladcub 9 March 2020 19: 55 New
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                    As the saying goes: "master-master"
        2. sabakina 9 March 2020 09: 33 New
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          Quote: 3x3zsave
          To the horse! Yes, and the landscape is some kind of hepatitis ... laughing

      2. Mavrikiy 9 March 2020 09: 37 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        To the horseshoes, chtoli prikopit! just kidding!

        There are no horseshoes ....
        1. Since the Slavic squad, then the Roman armor and mustache bracket? request
        2. With an empty head and into battle? request
        3. We could take combat bow only from nomads. repeat There is no team, but there are massive trophies from nomads. fool
        4.
        Actually, the term "prince", according to the generally accepted view in science.
        And what about the term "Early Slovenians", Where and when were they? Who will make us happy? repeat
        1. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 19: 54 New
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          Since the Slavic squad, then the Roman armor and mustache brace?

          Read carefully, I wrote here about the events of how the Slavs began to serve the Romans in the East, and then moved on to the Arabs. Then here is the armament of the Byzantine circle.
          As I wrote above, there are no images on Slavic early history, I gave a scheme for equipment - everything is specified specifically and correctly.
          Of course it is easy to criticize, but these are all completely empty words without references to sources, excuse me.
          So chat, why have the right)
      3. Caretaker 9 March 2020 13: 04 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        To the horseshoes, chtoli prikopit! ...

        Let's try to “dig in” to the length of the arrows. Probably a little short for this onion.
        1. Caretaker 9 March 2020 21: 54 New
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          Quote: Caretaker
          Let's try to “dig in” to the length of the arrows. Probably a little short for this onion.

          Add a link to an article by Ryabov Kirill
          Compound onion: technological breakthrough of antiquity
          https://topwar.ru/167747-slozhnosostavnoj-luk-tehnologicheskij-proryv-drevnosti.html
      4. vladcub 9 March 2020 13: 52 New
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        "I would begin to squeak with pleasure," actually cats: "they say" meow ", and the chicks squeak
        Namesake, welcome.
      5. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 17: 05 New
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        Are you the author -> author -> author of the gallery? I’ll tell you that you are probably familiar with Klim Zhukov. Everything is clear and correct. Well, even a Slavic fighter could easily take the reservation from the killed Byzantine
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 08: 14 New
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      Quote: Korsar4
      Thanks, Edward. Interesting. Do you put an equal sign between glades and poles?

      Still, the Piast state is Poles! Although Edward may throw a couple of three interesting versions. I will restrain myself and I will not anticipate it !!!
      1. knn54 9 March 2020 10: 08 New
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        There were THREE brothers: Lech, Rus, Czech.
        Regarding the first real prince Mesh, the founder of the Piast dynasty, it is written in Jozef Kraszewski's "Great Legend". A film of the same name was shot. Although it is better known under the name "When the SUN was God" with Bogdan Stupka.
        And now attention-con-kun-kyun. Among the Yakuts, Khakasses, Karachais, / Balkars, it stands for the Sun.
        Well, the word KON itself has a lot of meanings. For example, the LAW-MANDATORY execution of the rules for kuna. LEGAL-true, etc.
        The Luzhichans- kněz “master, priest”, the Slavs. Knąz “nobleman, landowner”.
        I will wait for the continuation, but I will express my thought. The births were scattered. And in case of danger, the council of elders gathered everyone, and the most worthy commanded the united squad / militia.
        And in the "free" time, these squads, under the leadership of the prince, simply raided.
        "Our whole earth is large and plentiful, but there is no dress in it." ... Our Earth is rich ... There is no order.
        1. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 18: 11 New
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          Tales from the 19th century
      2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 18: 59 New
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      Sergei, of course not, there are western glades - they are Poles, there are eastern glades - with a tribal center in Kiev. These are completely different tribal unions. The better known name of course is Kiev glade.
      1. Korsar4 9 March 2020 19: 14 New
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        Thank. I did not know at all that there is a division into eastern and western glades.

        Were they closer to each other than to other tribal unions?
        Or is there something you can only speculate about?
        1. Operator 9 March 2020 19: 41 New
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          There are no western and eastern glades, but there are Lehi (inhabitants of the Greater Poland region - a large plain in translation) and glade (residents of the Dnieper region).

          Poles (Poles in Russian) - the collective name of several Slavic tribes (Lehs, Kashubians and Moravians), united by Lehs into the Principality of Greater Poland after the collapse of the Great Moravian Principality a few years before the creation of the Russian state in the east with its center in Novgorod.

          At the end of the first millennium BC, bilateral migrations of separate genera of the Slavs from the Vistula to the Oka took place, in connection with which, the remains of the Vyatichi and Radimichi (Russian Non-Chernozemye) contain carriers of the Lech subclade of the haplogroup R1a and vice versa (hence the legend of Czech, Lech and Rus) . But in the composition of the Dnieper glades (descendants of the Ants), such migration mixes were not found.
        2. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 19: 46 New
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          They’re close to all Slavs, I’ll write about it here in VO, but six articles later, when I finish military exercises, I’ll just have similar names as the North, Dregovichi, Smolensk: in the Balkans and in Eastern Europe (as I wrote in VO) or Serbs , Serbs in the West and the Balkans, Croats in the Carpathians and the Balkans, etc.
          1. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 18: 22 New
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            Not Polyana in Kiev and Polyana in Krakow were then the same. But the Ilmen Slovenes came with the Vikings and they said now there will be a metropolis (mother of cities)
      2. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 18: 17 New
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        And not completely different. Near Kaliningrad they have the town of Kiev. Glades which in Kiev are the same Glades as in Mazovia.
        It so happened that we have. The power was taken by the Slovenian Ilmen, and they have a meadow
  • Jurkovs 9 March 2020 07: 12 New
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    The prince is in modern letters and in modern transcription. In ancient chronicles, vowels were simply omitted. And the written "prince" could be both a prince and a horse. By the way, the last transcription is even found in the texts of the annals. Well, is it better to dance from your own stove, and not from the Iranian or German. And understand the word horse-prince as an equestrian warrior. In the conditions when in the forest-steppe zone possession of a horse is a great wealth, the equestrian in the suit automatically became the leader, which later passed to any head of the military squad.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 08: 07 New
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      The etymology of the word "Horse" is also unknown! So another question is who came from whom the Horse from the Prince or the “Horse” from the Horse!
      The first one was CAT! In German (Kater). Stunned by this news, - the Germans have the word cat synonymous with the word - a hangover !!! Joking!
      In the Gothic (German) language, similar dependencies of Kon and Kagan !!! (Kon ')
      1. Catfish 9 March 2020 08: 28 New
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        The first one was CAT! In German (Kater). Stunned by this news, - the Germans have the word cat synonymous with the word - a hangover !!! Joking!

        Vladislav! You make me think seriously, and this is hard work, especially with a hangover. laughing drinks
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 08: 49 New
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          Good morning (well, if with a hangover, then maybe not really) Konstantin!
          I accidentally climbed into the Russian-German dictionary and came to the fundamental conclusion that, using a hangover in terms of four concepts (a cat, a prince, a horse), conditionally accepting that in German a cat and a hangover are the same thing! You can prove not only the primacy of KOTA before matter, but also to refute the spiritual world!
          Even enviously the German inhabitants became! Before dinner, you can do one word !!!
          For example, a burgher woke up with a hangover! Burger once his ear. Hans where the sausages, and he is a "hangover", "hangover", "hangover"! And the spouse thinks “cat”, “cat”, “cat is to blame, gobbled up sausages”! And then she thinks of her missus with her neighbor from her own refrigerator (naturally, the Russian cat was driven away from the refrigerator), well, the Air Force and all that! Especially at the refrigerator lies the lifeless body of Shtulz’s neighbor, who fell in a difficult fight with Putin’s cat (Russians = Putin = cat).
          Missus again for Adam's apple Ganz, but where is the beer? And he is again “hangover”, and his wife again hears “cat” !!! Damn and twenty years of living together will not help, and no need to lie !!! Who is to blame "Cat" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well and most importantly breathe in yourself ~ repeat
          1. Catfish 9 March 2020 08: 52 New
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            Abbalt! Well, just the whole theory! Remain to be a Cat! smile
          2. Mavrikiy 9 March 2020 09: 42 New
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            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            I accidentally crawled into the Russian-German dictionary and came to a fundamental conclusion,

            Let me tell you, specially take the English-Russian, everything from supermen. Is Russian-Ukrainian the most fashionable, but what do the Chinese mean by the word "prince"? repeat
          3. vladcub 9 March 2020 13: 59 New
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            Namesake, you +: neighing with pleasure
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 14: 20 New
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              Mutually Vlad! hi
      2. Korsar4 9 March 2020 08: 53 New
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        "Whale Academician,
        Academician on cats "(c).
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 10: 00 New
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          Quote: Korsar4
          "Whale Academician,
          Academician on cats "(c).

          A cat by academicians, maybe?
          laughing
          1. Korsar4 9 March 2020 11: 43 New
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            Can. Cats can do anything. At least their pedigree is longer.
            1. Astra wild 9 March 2020 19: 17 New
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              I remember Kipling's adaptation of "first mate, first friend." The woman tamed everyone, the cat almost obeyed
              1. Korsar4 9 March 2020 19: 19 New
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                Wonderful and the story, and the cartoon.
                1. vladcub 9 March 2020 20: 02 New
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                  I agree. It’s not young anymore (they’ll look at the 7th-1th), but now I’m watching those cartoons with pleasure. Drawn- "living" were lovely
      3. Krasnoyarsk 9 March 2020 18: 53 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        The first one was CAT! In German (Kater). Stunned this news, -

        What do you always point to the Germans? What makes you think that Russian words came from German, and not vice versa?
        In Ukraine, by the way, children who have not yet learned to speak were called German. From - dumb, unable to speak.
      4. Jurkovs 10 March 2020 06: 59 New
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        Dark cloth - a thousand horses.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 10 March 2020 07: 34 New
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          Quote: Jurkovs
          Dark cloth - a thousand horses.

          I'm certainly that linguist!
          But “darkness” is ten thousand.
          "Torah"? A book, a covenant, or something from a Spanish curry!
          “Kan”, let it be okay - cat, tfu “Horse”!
          It turns out:
          Ten thousand books with horses.
          Ten thousand horses with books, well, or learned horses!
          I could not stick the Spanish torus anywhere ....
          If on the basis of associations, it turns out a fundamental delirium "A bunch of cockroaches"!
          Although, if you pull by the ears and screw up your eyes in a favorable perspective, then it may well turn out "ten thousand cats" or "country of cats". From here, Pushkin’s lines are already playing with different colors: “They cut down an oak at Lukomorye, a cat for meat ... not that stop!”
          And here is how it was:
          “The green oak at the seaside.
          Golden chain on that oak.
          A scientist cat walks on it "
          Everything converges, and you are horses, horses, WHAT is the truth of the Slavic epic epic !!!
          Regards, Kote!
          1. Jurkovs 11 March 2020 07: 07 New
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            No need to joke if there is nothing to say on the merits.
          2. Krasnoyarsk 12 March 2020 16: 28 New
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            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka

            I'm certainly that linguist!

            West worship is ruining you. You try, I won’t do it for you, explain this word, “foolish” with the help of the Russian language. A small clue is the Russian derivative of Turkic.
          3. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 18: 24 New
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            So then from the Greek Tamatarha
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 March 2020 19: 00 New
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              Quote: Florian Geyer
              So then from the Greek Tamatarha

              Do not shock the falkhistorics!
              They are gentle and trusted creatures ...
              repeat
    2. Caretaker 9 March 2020 13: 09 New
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      Quote: Jurkovs
      then the equestrian in the shirt automatically became the leader,

      And if there are several horses?
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 14: 21 New
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        Quote: Caretaker
        Quote: Jurkovs
        then the equestrian in the shirt automatically became the leader,

        And if there are several horses?

        Then measured by "cats" !!! laughing laughing laughing hi
        1. Caretaker 9 March 2020 22: 07 New
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          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Then measured by "cats" !!!

          In the end, is there only one horse left, or does the “cat” sit in two saddles at the same time?
    3. vladcub 9 March 2020 15: 48 New
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      The etymology of which is Fasmer’s dictionary: "borrowing from the pragerman * kuningaz d. Vn kuning then kunj-genus."
    4. Astra wild 9 March 2020 18: 14 New
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      Jurkovs colleague, now found on the Internet. Nail Mustafin believes that the prince of Turkic origin: Kan - blood and Ez - trace, heir. So the son of the leader?
      1. Astra wild 9 March 2020 18: 38 New
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        Someone does not like Mustafin or how to explain the minus? I would be grateful if they explain the minus
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 20: 08 New
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          Quote: Astra wild
          Someone does not like Mustafin or how to explain the minus? I would be grateful if they explain the minus

          Dear Astra, do not take minuses to heart, here in the morning “anonymous falkhistoric slimes” feed! And the minuses are sculpted, both by their own and by someone else!
          Andrey (Operator), Krasnoyarsk and others, so take care of yourself and the past holiday!
          Regards, Vlad!
          For cats and women! Cats can be sold for a sausage, cats never !!! laughing
          1. Operator 9 March 2020 21: 18 New
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            Cats are sold to themselves for frozen capelin and oatmeal - a personal observation of Soviet times laughing
      2. Jurkovs 10 March 2020 07: 04 New
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        Then why didn’t the Turks themselves have princes? And there were khans, beks, etc.
        1. vladcub 10 March 2020 10: 05 New
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          It can be assumed that the Slavs heard: the heir to the blood gradually decreased to one word
  • Old partisan 9 March 2020 09: 19 New
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    You can talk as much as you like if there were squads among the ancient Slavs.
    It is enough to look at the old calculus now 7528 summers from the creation of the world in a star temple. Summer calculus note the official to Peter
    1. Krasnoyarsk 9 March 2020 19: 01 New
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      Quote: Old Partisan
      You can talk as much as you like if there were squads among the ancient Slavs.
      It is enough to look at the old calculus now 7528 summers from the creation of the world in a star temple. Summer calculus note the official to Peter

      Your 4 minuses are quite expected. Wild hysteria among Russophobia. How could there be a reckoning among wild barbarians without writing? Never !!! True proof that the Russians did not have a calendar, they do not bother.
      1. Trilobite Master 10 March 2020 10: 00 New
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        Quote: Old Partisan
        It’s enough to look at the old reckoning nowadays 7528
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Wild hysteria among Russophobia.

        Honestly, I'm tired of already discussing this topic, but periodically there are smart people who raise it again. And the wise men supporting them.
        But in this case, I have something. laughing
        People from ancient times were interested in the age of the world in which they live. Since for some time the Bible served as the only criterion of the truth of this or that knowledge, the age of the world was calculated based on the information contained in it. They considered it in different ways, got different results: 5969 years at the time of Christ’s birth, 5872, 5508, 5500, 5493, 5472, etc. In the Byzantine Empire it was decided (for what reasons it does not matter) that the most correct date is 5508, that is, Jesus, in their opinion, was born in 5508 from the creation of the world. It was this date that came to Russia together with Orthodox Christianity and all the chronicles that were written by Orthodox monks, and the events were dated in this way - from the creation of the world according to the Byzantine calendar. And so it was until Peter introduced dating directly from the birth of Christ. 5508 has no real historical background, it is simple, if you will, an invention of church scholastics, the fruit of their reasoning, accepted as canonical, but not the only one.
        Learn, be enlightened, it is useful at any age.
        PS I copy this text to the desktop and I will post it as necessary, so that I don’t write again. I'm tired.

        It’s not in vain that I copied and stored, you see, it comes in handy from time to time ... laughing
        1. The comment was deleted.
  • Trilobite Master 9 March 2020 12: 19 New
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    Hi honestоth company, good morning and other benefits. Ladies present with the past holiday. smile
    According to the article.
    Many thanks to the author, as always interesting and useful.
    According to the comments.
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    cleared the "branch of history"

    I agree. I am joining. smile
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    What are the "early Slavs"? In what centuries?

    Yes, all in the same. It is worth rereading the previous articles of the author. Without this, it is difficult to understand the content of the present.
    Quote: lucul
    Was the squad among the early Slavs?
    Weird question ...

    Not at all. What you described in your message is a purely professional military organization that requires maintenance and is expensive. The early Slavic society simply did not attract such an economy, therefore, for the time being, the Slavs did not have such a squad.
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    I dare to suggest that it was this factor that allowed Svyatoslav to win victories in Khazaria, Bulgaria and Byzantium for many years!

    Vlad, the Volga campaign of Svyatoslav, which turned out to be fatal for the Khazar Khaganate, could not be carried out by forces other than professional military forces, or combatants. Only professional warriors, personally loyal to their leader, could hurricane away from home for several years, traveling long distances, the militia is not capable of this, unless, of course, we are talking about nomads. Svyatoslav managed to concentrate a certain amount of material wealth in his hands and this enabled him to maintain a permanent professional army, with the help of which he planned to collect even more wealth. For the time being it turned out, but alas ...
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    So, among the Slavs, and not only, before the appearance of a regular army (squad), all men were soldiers. Everyone had weapons and knew how to use them, and, of course, there were also appointed or elected commanders. (By analogy - the chief ataman, the chief ataman) Otherwise, the tribe would not have survived. Therefore, to call it a militia does not turn the tongue. This is called an irregular army.

    Nonsense. In Slavic society, before the appearance of the squads there were no warriors, since it is impossible to be both a grain grower and a warrior at the same time. No one had a weapon. If necessary, household items were used as weapons, nothing more. Weapons are the prerogative of professionals. Appointed commanders - by whom are they appointed? Unless elected. laughing To call a poorly organized crowd of men militia your language does not turn, and the army - please? That is, when the peasants break away from their daily bread business, pick up axes and spears, or even just clubs, and go either to beat off the neighbors' raid on their reins, or to carry out this raid - is this an army? It’s ridiculous. If even a crowd of such men of several tens of thousands of people gathered, it would be impossible to call her an army.
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    To the horseshoes, chtoli prikopit!

    To the stirrups. Not sure if the Slavs used them at that time. I hope that colleagues will help to understand this issue.
    I don’t even want to discuss about “horses” and “horses”. Tired of this amateur linguistics worse than bitter radish. "Knight", "pig", "cow" ... Let's not ...
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 14: 18 New
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      Someone prince sounds!
      Mikhail, I’m ready to argue the composition of Svyatoslav’s troops!
      According to Byzantine sources, he operates both cavalry and pawns. I dare to assume the prototype of ship rati!
      Economic, the preconditions for the formation of professional troops were. Recall the reforms of his mother Olga!
      But where did the warriors come from? I think just the collapse of the tribal society and the economic rise of Ancient Rus allowed to release a sufficient number of people. And motivated by campaigns and battles. Recall the sharing of tribute from Constantinople. I'm talking about fabric on the sail !!! This indirectly confirms the presence of the militia (cities) or tribes in the campaigns of Svyatoslav. Perhaps their participation was the basis of victories at the first stage of the wars with both the Khazaria and Bulgaria and Byzantium! And also the cause of the defeat, if we assume that the bulk of the militia returned home!
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. Trilobite Master 9 March 2020 15: 35 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        father to argue on the composition of the troops of Svyatoslav

        And why are we still going here? smile
        In defense of my position I will try to bring such arguments.
        The militia itself is a purely temporary form of organization, designed to solve one problem for a short period of time. This is due to the fact that the militias break away from their main business and try to return to it at the earliest opportunity, because for that they are the militias, that it is not their business to fight.
        Svyatoslav’s campaign lasted for two years or so, during which time his army passed about three and a half thousand kilometers, I believe that no militia could have passed such a test - this is only possible under the influence of a professional army, squad.
        The fact that this squad was equipped with both foot and equestrian warriors is solely for the convenience and speed of movement. Do not forget that Svyatoslav was the bearer of a purely Scandinavian tradition of fighting, that is, his squads could move on horseback, but they fought on foot and so it was until the battle of Listven, and this is the XNUMXth century.
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Economic, the preconditions for the formation of professional troops were. Recall the reforms of his mother Olga!

        That’s what I’m talking about: Olga created the economic base for increasing the prince’s squad, for the maintenance of more professional soldiers, which I used, or rather, Svyatoslav tried to use.
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        But where did the warriors come from?

        Yes, everything is from the same place - the descendants of Scandinavian Slavic Russia of the times of Igor and Rurik (the so-called "children of the Polyud") plus numerous aliens "from across the sea" in the person of numerous heterogeneous cousins, uncles and nephews, who are ready to admit a small share of themselves the seniority of their relative, Svendislejv Ingvarson and participate in a fun enterprise.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 March 2020 15: 48 New
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          In order to crush the Khazar Kaganate - not enough! '
          Let's see where the popular rumor uncle Vladimir Svyatoslavovich! Who supported his son and grandson on campaigns in Kiev!
          Where could thousands of troops come from?
          1. Trilobite Master 9 March 2020 16: 21 New
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            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            In order to crush the Khazar Kaganate - not enough! '

            The Khazar Khaganate at that time was already not the same one hundred and two hundred years ago. And it was not Svyatoslav who crushed him, but rather the steppes from the east. Svyatoslav only in every possible way accelerated his rout, which can probably be considered his mistake.
            It seems that a couple of three thousand combatants for those tasks that Svyatoslav solved would be quite enough. And such a contingent could be gained even among Russians (in the sense of the descendants of Russia), and if there were funds to attract Scandinavian squads of relatives, then more could be gained.
        2. Astra wild 9 March 2020 18: 04 New
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          Mikhail (Tribolit), you think that Svyatoslav from the Vikings: "Svyatoslav was a carrier of purely Scandinavian tradition," I understand correctly?
          1. Trilobite Master 9 March 2020 18: 27 New
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            Quote: Astra wild
            You think that Svyatoslav from the Vikings

            Not really. He, of course, was the bearer of the Scandinavian military traditions. This obviously follows from the description of the battle near Dorostol with the army of Tzimiskes. But he was not a Viking, since Viking is a concrete concept and meant, according to most researchers, a Scandinavian sea robber (if simplified).
            I consider the Scandinavian origin of the Rurik dynasty to be completely proven scientifically, so fully and qualitatively proven that I myself do not even consider other versions.
            And please, dear Astra, do not distort my nickname, it is enough that other people are constantly engaged in this. Not that it hurt me much, but it was from you, the person who was usually correct and restrained, that such an appeal seemed to me ... let's say, somewhat unexpected. smile
            1. Astra wild 9 March 2020 19: 00 New
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              Mikhail, please excuse me: the rush does not do that.
              Regarding the origin of Rurik, I am not a supporter of Fomenko and other folk historians, you should note this, but the Soviet historian Rybakov had a different opinion on the origin of Rurik. How do you comment on this?
              1. Trilobite Master 9 March 2020 23: 23 New
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                Quote: Astra wild
                Rybakov had a different opinion on the origin of Rurik

                Rybakov was wrong. Drawing his conclusions, he could rely on annalistic sources and only archeology arising from his efforts as a science. Now history, as a science, has taken a long step forward, excavations are ongoing, new finds are appearing, historical linguistics, population genetics, paleoclimatology, paleobotany, historical psychology that Rybakov never heard of are developing. Rybakov did not have all these data, although they appeared largely due to him, his activities.
                So he was wrong. smile
        3. Krasnoyarsk 12 March 2020 16: 40 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master

          The militia itself is a purely temporary form of organization, designed to solve one problem for a short period of time.

          Well, and how this determination differs from the challenged one, I don’t remember who, my militia is the essence of helping a regular army. For the period under discussion - the squad. Hence the squad - a regular army.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Do not forget that Svyatoslav was a carrier of a purely Scandinavian tradition of fighting,

          Where did these "firewood" come from? Do you think that Svyatoslav was so stupid that to fight with nomads who did not fight on foot, "in Scandinavian"?
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          descendants of Scandinavian-Slavic Russia

          What kind of fantasy is this?
    2. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 19: 11 New
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      I don’t even want to discuss about “horses” and “horses”. Tired of this amateur linguistics worse than bitter radish. "Knight", "pig", "cow" ... Let's not ...


      Someone prince sounds!

      I recall a joke about Little Johnny and the horse)))
    3. Krasnoyarsk 9 March 2020 19: 21 New
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      Quote: Trilobite Master
      smile
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      What are the "early Slavs"? In what centuries?
      Yes, all in the same. It is worth rereading the previous articles of the author. Without this, it is difficult to understand the content of the present.

      Those. evaded the answer.
      Quote: Trilobite Master

      Nonsense. In Slavic society, before the appearance of the squads, there were no warriors, since it is impossible to be both a grain grower and a warrior at the same time.

      But what about the Cossacks? And farmers and warriors.
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      No one had a weapon. If necessary, items were used as weapons

      Yeah. I decided to go hunting, took the item and went. On the bear. And what? The neighbors attacked. again, an object at hand. How many homo sapiens exist, so many weapons exist. Not objects.
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Appointed commanders - by whom are they appointed?

      Do you think that anarchy reigned in clans and tribes? He was appointed the elder of the clans, speaking our language - the voivode. We do not know what it was called in those days when your "early Slavs" lived.
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      To call a poorly organized crowd of men militia your language does not turn, and the army - please?

      And where do you get confidence in a weak organization? Do you consider the "leaders" of the tribe fool you? Not understanding the importance of organization and discipline?
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      your tongue doesn’t turn, but by the army - please? That is, when the peasants break away from their daily bread business, pick up axes and spears, or even just clubs, and go either to beat off the neighbors' raid on their reins, or to carry out this raid - is this an army? It’s funny.

      Laugh, just funny. Only the word army I have not used even once. By the way, the ax is the weapon.
      1. Trilobite Master 9 March 2020 21: 52 New
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        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Those. evaded the answer.

        You seem to know how to parse letters, now try reading. By the term "read" I mean to parse all the letters, put them into words and try to understand the meaning of these words. If it doesn’t work, then, unfortunately, I can’t help you.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        But what about the Cossacks? And farmers and warriors.

        And where does the Cossacks? Until the Cossacks still oh how much time should pass. If you bother to explain what you find in common between the Slavs of the VI-VIII centuries. and the Cossacks of the sixteenth - seventeenth and later centuries, I may be trying to accept this extrapolation. But I'm afraid there is a shameful failure waiting for you.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        I decided to go hunting, took the item and went.

        That's it. Weak bow, designed for black grouse or capercaillie, spear, knife, noose, snares built, some traps ... Ax, of course - as a tool for work. But they didn’t have weapons, that is, items specially designed and adapted for battle — they were poor, and three axes can be made from one sword. And so, in your opinion, it turns out that both the stone and the stick are weapons. Well, if so, then ... yes. They were armed to the teeth. Sticks and stones in our forests were abundant.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        He was appointed the elder of the clans, speaking our language - the voivode.

        I have the impression that you have not read the articles. You ask about the early Slavs, or about the elders here. What do you say? Once again, try to figure out the content of the article. Again, I can’t help you, and I don’t want to.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        And where do you get confidence in a weak organization?

        There is simply no information about any organization whatsoever, in any case, military, yes, by and large, any. On the contrary, everyone, as agreed, writes that the Slavs are fighting in ambush, they do not know the system, attack the crowd and scatter if they get a rebuff. Of the protective equipment, only primitive shields that they drop a little on the spot. And your argument about the fact that "there was an organization, because it could not be, but I want it to be," - baby talk. Was - tell me where you got it. But only besides your painful fantasies, there is simply nowhere to take it from.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        I have never used the word army

        Well, at least thank you for that. However, the "irregular army" is slightly better.
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        the ax is the weapon.

        Ax - household item, tool. The battle axes in their design were fundamentally different from those that the Slavs had. But in the work they were uncomfortable and the Slavs did not keep them, and if anyone had, then in isolated cases. Who needs a brodex or a coin in the forest?
        1. Krasnoyarsk 12 March 2020 17: 07 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master

          You seem to know how to parse letters, now try reading. By the term "read" I mean to parse all the letters, put them into words and try to understand the meaning of these words. If it doesn’t work, then, unfortunately, I can’t help you.

          Again empty words. Which, in general, is not surprising.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          And where does the Cossacks? Until the Cossacks still oh how much time should pass.

          And besides. According to your statements, the Slavic "farmer" could not be a warrior, but the Cossack is a breadman, it turns out - he could. And why is this?
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          If you bother to explain what you find in common between the Slavs of the VI-VIII centuries. and Cossacks XVI - XVII and later centuries,

          Well, if you don’t know ...
          The ancient Slavs, before the appearance of the union of tribes, i.e. and before the appearance of the prince, as the leader of the tribal union, there was no regular, professional army. And the Cossacks, I mean the 12th, 13th, 14th centuries, also did not have such an army. But both of them successfully defended their lands from the raids of the adversary. Therefore, in this regard, a comparison is quite appropriate.
          Quote: Trilobite Master

          That's it. Weak bow, designed for black grouse or capercaillie, spear, knife, noose, snares built, some traps ... Ax, of course - as

          Well yes. Nothing new, the same song - they lived in the forest, prayed to the wheel.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          I have the impression that you have not read the articles.

          You want to say that if I read the article, then my “governor” would not be appointed as tribal elders, but as arriving Martians? Those. Do you personally consider all the articles you read as immutable truth? However!
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          There is simply no information about any organization at all,

          Those. since no one wrote about the military organization of the ancient Slavs to you, then didn’t there be an organization? You surprise me more and more unpleasantly.
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Who needs a brodex or a coin in the forest?

          Well yes. Your favorite Scandinavians were born with Brodexes.
          1. Florian geyer 13 March 2020 18: 45 New
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            Cossacks, by the way, were not always "grain growers" - before Peter they were directly forbidden by tsarist decrees to engage in agriculture
    4. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 19: 59 New
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      To the stirrups. Not sure if the Slavs used them at that time. I hope that colleagues will help to understand this issue.

      Michael,
      good evening,
      the reconstruction dates back to the very end of the XNUMXth century. The Slavs in the east had armaments of the Byzantine circle, so they could use the stirrups.
      More accurate data are not available.
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
    5. Engineer 9 March 2020 22: 20 New
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      Complete nonsense. In Slavic society, before the appearance of the squads, there were no warriors, since it is impossible to be both a grain grower and a warrior at the same time. No one had a weapon. If necessary, household items were used as weapons, nothing more. Weapons are the prerogative of professionals.

      Somehow you rebuked me categorically. Time to return the favor.)
      If we take an almost synchronous Scandinavian society, then EVERYTHING should be warriors. Every personally free man is required to appear on the thing with a sword. The ax is constantly mentioned (although I don’t know how in the original and what is the difference in Old Slavic from an ordinary ax) as a weapon of not only combatants and bonds, but also workers, even personally dependent
      The second observation. They did not have any clear separation of the combatant (hirdman) bond. People leaving the house became warriors. Then they could come back. Scraphedin, the eldest son of Nyal, is an ordinary bond. But his younger brothers, who are vigilantes of one of the kings, unconditionally recognize his superiority in everything, including the military business.
      The third. Scandinavian reading, militia, mandatory for all men- documented fact.
      1. Trilobite Master 9 March 2020 23: 01 New
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        I would gladly agree with you, but, unfortunately, before the appearance of the Scandinavians in the Slavic territories (primarily the Dnieper region), any weapons are not archaeologically recorded at all. Unless, of course, the arrowheads are considered as such, but this, of course, is not an indicator. smile There are not even shield ombons, not to mention more advanced things, such as swords, helmets, nothing that would indicate the presence of any kind of military culture among the Slavs. Therefore, my categorization in this case is forced. smile
        In fairness, I’ll clarify that under weapons I mean only and exclusively objects whose main purpose is to fight with a person, and I do not refer to such tools as a hunter (bow, stag), carpenter (ax), digger (pickaxe), peasant (scythe, sickle , flail), etc., although all these items can be used in battle, but their main purpose is peaceful work.
        1. Engineer 9 March 2020 23: 08 New
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          I would gladly agree with you, but, unfortunately, before the appearance of the Scandinavians in the Slavic territories (primarily the Dnieper region), any weapons are not archaeologically recorded at all.

          This is some kind of hypercriticism. The tips of the copies are fixed already from the 2nd century in the Slavic area of ​​Przeworsk culture according to Sedov. Yes, poor. But not zero. Plus we will make a discount on the fact that the Slavs have uninventory burials, unlike the Germans.
          There aren’t even ombons from shields, not to mention more advanced things, such as swords, helmets, nothing that would indicate the presence of any kind of military culture among the Slavs. Therefore, my categorization in this case is forced

          But Procopius and Mauritius clearly speak shields. spears, bows. There were. It is a combat, not a hunting weapon
          1. Trilobite Master 10 March 2020 00: 41 New
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            Spears and bows are nonetheless dual-use items and have been used in everyday life to earn daily bread. As for the shields, they were the simplest among the Slavs and, apparently, were not stored in the household, they were thrown out as soon as needed. I would not consider them to be objects of professional military equipment.
            Quote: Engineer
            It is a combat, not a hunting weapon

            That's exactly purely military I do not see. Transplant an ax onto a longer ax, plant a spear on a longer shaft, put together from several boards or weave a shield from the rods - that’s all “military equipment”. The campaign ended - a shield for ejection, a spear and an ax - to return to its original place and continue to work.
            Of course, they fought, but there were either no soldiers among them.
            1. Engineer 10 March 2020 11: 44 New
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              Hunting spears are easy to distinguish - a wide blade and often have a crosshairs to hold prey.
              Found tips have a narrow shape. That is rather fighting. In addition, Procopius talks about darts, and this is not typical for hunting.
              Among the arrows there are faceted, elongated clearly fighting. See link below
              Shields are definitely a combat element. Although the simplest. And is it the simplest? Rivets were found, possibly from a umbon, in the village of Klementovichi
              Axes

              Forms 2,5,7 are obviously combat. Narrow and long, too impractical in everyday life.
              Form 1-combat 100% with a butcher-mint
              As I wrote, inventory burials are not atypical for the Slavs, so there is no reason to wait for finds like Wendel.
              However, there are exceptions
              Sword from the burial of Kolochino culture. Kartamyshevo.

              The shells may have been. Lamellar plates of the Khotomel settlement, 7-8 centuries. This is possibly Avar. But there is still a record from the Kolochino settlement Moschenka.
              There are snippets of chain mail see the article below.
              The article itself. Great weapon material
              https://vk.com/wall97486746_641
              The accessories of the rider in the area of ​​the Slavs are also known.
              Steppe traditions in Slavic weapons and horse equipment in the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries
              The author is Kazan. I don’t give a link to the academy because it is very long and such posts are deleted here.
              1. Trilobite Master 10 March 2020 12: 43 New
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                Quote: Engineer
                The author is Kazan.

                I will read the article, I will answer later. There is clearly something wrong here. smile
              2. Trilobite Master 11 March 2020 10: 53 New
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                I got acquainted with the article, looked at something else on the topic.
                I even remembered my own article on this resource about Turovsky Sword ... smile Also, if you didn’t twist, this “sword” is just a weapon, it would be funny if you would have sipped me with my article. smile
                I agree that he may have shown excessive categorization and gave reason to complain about his words. Objects of purely military purpose among the Slavs met. Single, but met. Whether they can serve as a marker of the presence of a caste of professional warriors is a question. In my opinion - no, there are too few of these items. It is strikingly small in comparison with the period of early statehood. And even what is described in Kazan clearly makes it clear that in the presence of a huge number of different spearheads, darts, arrows, objects that can be unambiguously defined as strictly military for two times and miscalculated - a few narrow-blade axes, a sword, a shell detail yes rivets, presumably from umbon. And it's all. For three hundred years. In the territory from the Elbe and the Danube to the Don. A drop in the sea. smile
                1. Engineer 11 March 2020 11: 34 New
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                  Whether they can serve as a marker of the presence of a caste of professional warriors is a question.

                  I myself doubt it. But any researcher, even a sofa, should consider the opposite point of view. Kazan, by the way, is a defender of the appearance of squads among the Slavs in the 5-7 centuries
                  In my opinion - no, there are too few of these items. It is strikingly small in comparison with the period of early statehood.

                  Again the same observation - consider the uninventory nature of Slavic burials. Take away the finds of German graves and minus the massive finds in the swamps because the Slavs did not have the practice of ritual sacrifice of weapons. If we compare the finds only in the hillforts, the separation of the same Germans will no longer be so radical.

                  Regarding professionalism and high military qualities in general. Remember the year 549 - the defeat of the great horsemen in Tsurul surpassed number of Slavs (Procopius himself writes about this) Capture of Topir. Fast and efficient. Later superior Byzantine troops did not dare to attack the army of the Slavs.
                  Remember how greyhounds spoke with the Avars? Isn't that a marker of awareness of power?

                  By the way, do you still doubt that almost all the spears in the article are definitely combat?
                  1. Trilobite Master 11 March 2020 13: 29 New
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                    Quote: Engineer
                    any researcher, even a sofa, should consider the opposite point of view.

                    Of course I agree. Therefore, it’s probably worth explaining that until recently (not even ten years have passed since then) I could safely classify myself as a supporter of precisely the “opposite” point of view, considering, like my opponent yesterday, that the military culture of the early Slavs was sufficiently developed and not inferior, for example, German. Moreover, I admit that about twenty years ago I could boldly attribute myself to anti-Normanists - I was so unconscious and uneducated. smile I mean, in general, I am familiar with the positions and arguments of the supporters of these points of view. Further.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    The Inventory Character of Slavic Burials

                    due to, as I think, the poverty of the life of the Slavs. Severe climate relative to Europe at the same latitudes, lack of minerals, primarily iron, lack of transit trade routes. As a result - paucity, dispersal over a large territory among dense forests, difficulties regarding Europe and the steppe zone with communication with neighbors, right up to the actual isolation of some tribes - where do the great riches come from? And no one will put their last ax or knife into the grave of even the most respected ancestor.
                    And a poor society that is not even able to provide the deceased with a normal last trip, in any case, will not be able to support professional warriors, and they actually did not need them.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    549 year - the defeat of the great riders in Tsurul

                    Little is known about this battle, at least for me.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    almost all the spears in the article are uniquely combat

                    I think, at least, dual-use. Unless some awl-shaped faceted spears can be unambiguously interpreted as cavalry peaks. But they, again, are few. Spears with a conditionally "flat" feather, of which the vast majority are ours, could be forged specifically for hunting, and used in war as needed.
                    As for arrows and darts, this is, in fact, a consumable and, in preparation for the campaign or for defense, they could be forged specially in large quantities.
      2. Krasnoyarsk 10 March 2020 11: 51 New
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        Quote: Engineer

        If we take an almost synchronous Scandinavian society, then EVERYTHING should be warriors. Every personally free man is required to appear on

        Don't you understand? This is - SCANDINAVES !!! And you compare with some dense Slavs descended from a tree yesterday.
        It makes no sense to argue with them. Because their main goal is to prove that the Slavs are the essence of a backward branch of civilization. That the Normans created the state to the Slavs, but ... unsuccessfully. And only the Mongols managed to do this - a real state appeared in the Rus.
        1. Trilobite Master 10 March 2020 12: 42 New
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          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Don't you understand? This is - SCANDINAVES !!! And you compare with some dense Slavs descended from a tree yesterday.

          No, you definitely need to learn to read. It’s not just folding letters into words, but reading it - understanding what is written. The same new age, maybe in a slightly lighter form. The main thesis is that Russians are the coolest. An additional main thesis is that the Cossacks are the coolest Russians. The main argument is whoever disagrees is a Russophobe.
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          from a tree descending Slavs.

          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Slavs - the essence of a backward branch of civilization

          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          the Slavs created the Normans

          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          the Mongols managed to do it

          These are your words, not mine. Your thoughts It’s with you that you are fighting here, but they came not from my head, but from yours, their small homeland there.
          That point of view that I uphold here, with what you wrote, has and had nothing to do. You yourself, due to your dense nature and complexes incomprehensible to me, on the basis of some false assumptions give rise to such nonsense in your head, and since you hate yourself to be somehow dumb, you attribute them to someone else, in this case, me.
          Understand in your head where it comes from, in particular, those thoughts that you have stated, and I quoted. And how to figure it out, if you want, tell me. I will listen, I'm interested.
    6. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 18: 33 New
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      Have you ever heard the word "stag"? This is exactly what is needed on the farm and in war
  • Operator 9 March 2020 16: 02 New
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    The military organization of the Slavs (as always) corresponded to their social organization as of the beginning of our era:

    1. The patriarchal family to control the absence of closely related birth of children and degeneration of the population. Wives in the family were brought from foreign families.

    2. Genus as a collection of families originating from one male ancestor living in the same village and having common agricultural, fruit, hunting and fishing lands. With an increase in the number of people in a clan, some families resettled in settlements, where new clans were formed.

    3. The territorial community as a combination of several neighboring clans for the purpose of non-violent elimination of conflicts between them by forming a coupe / assembly from among the elders of the clans, acting on the basis of case law. The guardians of the right were the elders - departed from the management of the birth of the elders.

    4. The tribe as a combination of several territorial communities for non-violent elimination of conflicts between them. To quickly resolve issues, the tribe was headed by an elected leader - Konaz (Prince). His duties included administering a princely court between the communities, administering part of the religious rites (under the direction of the Magi), maintaining tribal relations and organizing external defense when trying to invade tribal territory, limited by the border line - the horse. The prince had the right to maintain a militarized / police formation - a squad in order to raise funds for his maintenance by means of poplar and prompt response to violation of the horse.

    5. Ethnic community of tribes on the basis of religious, cultural and linguistic unity (Slovene from the "word").

    In connection with this, the military organization of the Slavs consisted of a tribal-community militia (which included all the men), a permanent princely squad at the tribe level, and temporary target intertribal (including foreigners) gang for raids on neighbors.
    1. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 18: 35 New
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      Excellent, but n. 5 does not go, what kind of ethnic community is there? Rather ethnic disunity
  • Astra wild 9 March 2020 17: 58 New
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    The author, what kind of bird is a horse on a thigh?
    1. Phil77 9 March 2020 18: 11 New
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      I would venture to suggest that this is an image of a griffin / griffin-mythical creature /.
      1. Astra wild 9 March 2020 18: 35 New
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        I know that it is mythical, but what does it symbolize, perhaps, like a totem of the Indians? Probably they read Fenimore Cooper: “The Last of the Mohicans?” Once there were good adaptations. As a child I watched the GDR adaptation of St. John’s Wort, but I forgot the name. I want to find and revise it on the Internet. It seems there is a Soviet film: “Chingachgook the big snake”?
        1. Phil77 9 March 2020 18: 51 New
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          Faith! The image of the griffin is not related to the image of war, as a version, this is the bookplate of the owner of the book from where this drawing is taken. But this is only the version. Perhaps someone will give you a more accurate answer.
        2. Phil77 9 March 2020 18: 53 New
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          And after that, the Germans shot the film about Chingachguk, back in 1967, in the internet it was easy to find it.
        3. Phil77 9 March 2020 18: 56 New
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          The griffin symbolizes power over two elements - the sky and the earth.
          1. Astra wild 9 March 2020 19: 03 New
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            Hockey Lion, THANKS
            1. Phil77 9 March 2020 19: 05 New
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              I’m closer nevertheless to cats! laughing
    2. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 19: 04 New
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      In the beginning, which bird? wink
      Vulture. so drawings "mark" hi
      1. Phil77 9 March 2020 19: 15 New
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        Hello Edward! So is it still a griffin?
        1. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 19: 47 New
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          Greetings!
          That's right)
      2. vladcub 9 March 2020 20: 09 New
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        Eduard, you are already in brackets or whatever, but indicate that this is your T.s.
        1. Edward Vashchenko 9 March 2020 20: 25 New
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          I will consider, thanks, Regards hi
          1. Pane Kohanku 10 March 2020 11: 43 New
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            I will consider, thanks, Regards

            I read the article with pleasure. It seems to be a simple subject, but such subtleties must be understood. With respect, Nicholai hi
            for some reason I remembered Izborsk, as one of the military centers, where exactly did statehood come from. Specifically - Truvorovo Gorodishche, the first small settlement.

            When you climb the ridge, you feel like "touched the roots of statehood," and you even want to blurt out something a la Napoleon before the Battle of the Pyramids - something about centuries and stuff. fellow but in general the place is fascinating. good On the lake below the hill, swans live. And it turns out that the old fortress on the hillfort also acquired stone walls at one time! And the new one (what we actually call Izborsk) is already built after.
            1. Edward Vashchenko 10 March 2020 19: 02 New
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              Thank you!
              Yes, I was at the excavations in St Ladoga, the same feelings, but somehow in Kiev I never felt) But this is probably personal
              1. Pane Kohanku 11 March 2020 10: 11 New
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                But this is probably personal

                I think yes. Every sandpiper loves its swamp.
                Yes, I was at a dig in St Ladoga

                Have you been with Kirpichnikov? belay but! good
                By the way, during the excavation of the Yama-Kingisepp fortress, Kirpichnikov dug up some unique gate mechanism there. Too lazy to dig, but reading, I faintly imagined. what But the Hers lattice, which overlaps the gate at the entrance to the fortress, was preserved in our original in the North-West in one place - Koporye! True, fixed.
                1. Edward Vashchenko 11 March 2020 14: 51 New
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                  Yes, I was in practice with A.N. Kirpichnikov. I was lucky with archaeologists: I.V. Dubov was my reviewer, A.V. Gadko and G.S. Lebedev opponents. hi
                  1. Pane Kohanku 11 March 2020 15: 08 New
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                    Yes, I was in practice with A.N. Kirpichnikov. I was lucky with archaeologists: I.V. Dubov was my reviewer, A.V. Gadko and G.S. Lebedev opponents.

                    Edward, as a person who is interested in history, but does not have a historical education - I envy you with white envy in something! good In Staraya Ladoga, workers said that Kirpichnikov tried to come there every year. This is Human! and God grant him as many years and as many labors! hi
                    But in Izborsk, Sedov is called as the "leading archaeologist" - I just don’t remember father or son. He conducted the main excavations. hi
                2. Caretaker 11 March 2020 20: 11 New
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                  Quote: Pan Kohanku
                  But the Hers lattice, which overlaps the gate at the entrance to the fortress, was preserved in our original in the North-West in one place - Koporye! True, fixed.

                  The state of the arch after March 06, 2020.
                  It seems that the collapse occurred precisely in the area of ​​the hers lattice
                  https://www.lomolenobl.ru/foto-segodnja-nochju-obrushilsja-vhod-v-koporskuju-krepost/
                  1. Pane Kohanku 11 March 2020 20: 25 New
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                    The state of the arch after March 06, 2020.

                    belay belay Leonid, many thanks for the info! I will explain: the last time I was in Koporye on March 31 last year. Photo - my girlfriend.
                    Here is hersa:

                    The question is, in the near future I wanted to go there and take a picture! Why - last year half of the fortress was closed by a fence. In general, it’s interesting: in 2011 one could go to the South Gate Tower and go up, as well as to the Middle Tower. In the 14th, these passages were closed. Last year (in the spring), in general, all approaches to the towers were blocked ...
                    Here is the Middle Tower. Not to get there:

                    According to him, the brickwork of the Transfiguration Cathedral, located inside the fortress, looks even more depressing.

                    well, from half of the cathedral there were only the remains ....

                    Damn ... but I wanted to perefotat! request Thanks for the info, Leonid! drinks
            2. Caretaker 10 March 2020 21: 34 New
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              Quote: Pan Kohanku
              Truvorovo Gorodische, the first small settlement .....
              When you climb the ridge, you feel like "touched the roots of statehood",

              Truvorovo ancient settlement is remarkable in that there are almost no buildings around. The beauty. Slovenian Keys, Malskaya Valley.
              Interestingly, there were towers on the terraces along the ridge?
              I saw similar ledges on other fortifications.
              1. Pane Kohanku 11 March 2020 10: 05 New
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                Interestingly, there were towers on the terraces along the ridge?

                there was one stone big tower. It is written on a tablet near the hillfort. drinks
                1. Caretaker 11 March 2020 19: 53 New
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                  Quote: Pan Kohanku
                  there was one stone big tower. It is written on a tablet near the hillfort.

                  I meant these sites

                  I saw similar ledges on other fortifications.
                  1. Pane Kohanku 11 March 2020 20: 15 New
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                    I saw similar ledges on other fortifications.

                    wow! I did not think .... what maybe one of the experts will enlighten? drinks
            3. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 18: 40 New
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              Handsomely. They will have to go. But what does a non-Russian Viking Truvor have to do with 6th-century Slavs?
    3. 3x3zsave 9 March 2020 19: 40 New
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      The stigma of the author!
      "Draw a horse
      Brand her!
      So as not to rest
      Internet thieves! " laughing
      1. Korsar4 9 March 2020 20: 39 New
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        "- What is the mark on the Nopalito Ranch, Wilson?" (with).
        1. 3x3zsave 9 March 2020 21: 05 New
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          Three stars and a horseshoe?
          I respect these authors, masters of the "short genre" very much!
          1. Korsar4 9 March 2020 21: 29 New
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            Your favorite O'Henry. The novel is known to me under the name "Heart and Cross."

            And the stigma was X-damn-U.
            1. 3x3zsave 9 March 2020 21: 52 New
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              Oh yeah!!!! O'Henry, London, Chekhov, Averchenko ... As for me, S. King is praying for the image of Ambrose Bierce! The last singer of this glorious galaxy, became Robert Sheckley. I love them all !!!
              1. Korsar4 9 March 2020 21: 58 New
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                Akhmatova once said: "Chekhov and poetry are incompatible."
                Probably with age you take Chekhov more and less poetry.
                1. 3x3zsave 9 March 2020 22: 14 New
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                  Probably, Akhmatova never happened to compare Kuprin with Baudelaire.
    4. Fat
      Fat 9 March 2020 19: 41 New
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      Quote: Astra wild
      The author, what kind of bird is a horse on a thigh?

      This is the "corporate" pupil of the author of the drawing and, in fact, of the author of the article.
      Label in a handwritten illustration.
  • Operator 9 March 2020 18: 37 New
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    As for the weapons among the Slavs at the beginning of our era:
    - the tribal militia is a dual-use household equipment (axes, knives, bows, spears), specialized clubs;
    - the prince, squads and elders of the clan may have swords, shields, helmets and other protective weapons obtained as trophies or as a result of a trade exchange.

    Since the second half of the 1st millennium, the Slavs have swords and protective weapons of local manufacture based on foreign samples.
  • Ua3qhp 9 March 2020 19: 43 New
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    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Svyatoslav’s campaign lasted for two years or so, during which time his army passed about three and a half thousand kilometers, I believe that no militia could have passed such a test - this is only possible under the influence of a professional army, squad.
    The militia would probably have survived, then the guys were strong. The economy could not stand if a large number of workers for a long time torn off from the economy.
  • Operator 10 March 2020 00: 24 New
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    Quote: Engineer
    Slavs have uninventory burials unlike the Germans

    At the beginning of our era, the quality of steel among the Germans, Scandinavians and Slavs was low, therefore, all non-Roman Europeans at that time used axes as non-throwing weapons, breaking through the barrier due to the concentration of their mass at the end of the handle, and not the hardness of the sharpened blade (like a sword )

    In the middle of the first millennium, non-Roman Europeans adopted Roman technology and established the production of their own swords.

    PS Iron and steel were valued highly among the early Germans, Scandinavians and Slavs, therefore the hardware was inherited, and scrap was reforged into new products.
    1. Astra wild 10 March 2020 17: 30 New
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      I have always believed and still believe that Rome is Europe. After all, you will not begin to repeat the Rosenberg racial theory? And as I recall, from books and on the site it was, for them the Scandinavians were a "pure" race, and all the others were at a different stage of development
      1. Operator 10 March 2020 18: 11 New
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        By the beginning of our era (the starting point of the author of the article), the eastern borders of the Roman Empire on the European subcontinent passed along the Rhine and Danube. Therefore, at that time only Celts (Iberians, Gauls and Britons), Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians were exposed to Roman civilization.

        The Germans began to adopt the Roman experience only after the passage of the Goths and others through the Rhine and Danube. After them, the Eastern Slavs Serbs, Croats and Antes invaded Illyria, Thrace and Greece. The first written records of the raids of the Western Slavs of the Wends on the Black Sea territory of Byzantium date back only to the 7th century. After the western territories of Byzantium began to be raided by the Scandinavians.

        But you can’t acquire technological skills in raids, so the Eastern Slavs, in their native habitats, adopted the technological skills from the neighbors of the Germans or from the western and southern Slavs directly adjacent to the Germans and Byzantines. In the same way, Scandinavians joined technological skills through neighborly connections.

        Pure geography and no racism.
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. Operator 12 March 2020 19: 39 New
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        Potsan, you obviously confused VO with a wineglass.
  • andrew42 10 March 2020 15: 12 New
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    It is strange that the etymology of the word "Prince" from the "book" is not mentioned at all. But the old spelling “down” is well known. It’s good that they didn’t remember the warped “konaz” with the horse, otherwise it happens that purposefully the word “komon / komon” is completely forgotten. The prince is a book man, secular authority, judge. In a clan, a prince is an elder; a prince of a tribe is the head of a council of elders. The Slavs had everything “like human beings” —the three branches of power in a clan-tribe — the prince (the elder of the clan), the sorcerers (priests) separately, the governors — separately. If the sorcerer had to take on the role of a prince, or the prince had to govern. - so this is not from a good life. To take the "Germanic" tribes as a standard is an unreasonable matter. There is a degeneration of the social structure of society - the voivode (king, kruel, korolus) assumes the function of a prince, relying on armed lads judges his fellow tribesmen called "outrage", destroys the national priestly elite, and then searches for a foreign religion in order to "sanctify" the seized power over relatives. Clovis is a classic of the genre. The Slavs differed from the Germans in that they degraded as “Germans”, but much later (the West a little earlier, the East a little later), and again “from west to east”, through German influence, because primarily the Western Slavs had an analogy to put together "wolf packs", - "live with wolves, howl like a wolf," - so the Lutichs finished, and most likely they were encouraged the same way. So in Russia, the princes essentially became usurpers in reliance on Byzantine Christianity. The concept of "Druzhiny" has nothing to do with it at all - it is simply a group of people organized under the same authority. The troops were not only military, but also trading, and I think in general for some other common cause.
    1. Operator 10 March 2020 15: 49 New
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      The early (and, by the way, the later) Slavs did not have any branches of power - the prince (regardless of the etymology of the term) regulated intra-tribal relations exclusively between clans / territorial communities and did not go into relations within clans / territorial communities, where the elders / coupes exclusively exercised power the elders.

      The power within the patriarchal family was exercised by the oldest man in the family - father / grandfather / great-grandfather of all other generations (depending on the composition of the family maintaining a single economy, theoretically up to seven levels - seven I). And the elder of the clan did not interfere in family relations.

      Such a multi-level single-branch power structure exactly corresponded to the basic principle of future feudalism - “the vassal of my vassal is not my vassal”.

      Magi, by definition, are not power, but clergy who separated from the power (elders) even before the division of the tribes into independent clans and, especially, into the thermal communities.
      1. andrew42 10 March 2020 16: 25 New
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        Thank you for the comment, I do not see the subject of the dispute. "Branches of power" used exclusively within the framework of modern terminology. As for the "vassals" I consider the comparison unsuccessful. Vassal relations are purely military-economic. A vassal is not a kinsman; rather, no than yes. . The structural form of a relationship does not mean identical content.
        1. Operator 10 March 2020 16: 41 New
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          As for feudalism, I noted only the purely external similarity of the borders of competence in terms of the levels of power structure.

          On the merits of the matter, it was understood that under the clan-tribal system, each level of power (prince, kupa, elder, patriarch) single-handedly exercised all power (public, judicial, military) with respect to units of control located on the lower level (respectively, thermal communities, childbirth and members of the family).

          The Slavs did not have any other branches of power such as individual courts or legislative assemblies, just as the Russians did not have them after the creation of the Russian Land state, as well as the Russians as part of various principalities (with the exception of Novgorod, which was not a principality, but an oligarchic democracy) until the creation of the Boyar Duma in the Russian Kingdom, and then the courts of various instances in the Russian Empire.
    2. Florian geyer 12 March 2020 18: 46 New
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      Again ravings. The word prince is the same as king
  • Astra wild 10 March 2020 16: 35 New
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    Quote: Jurkovs
    Then why didn’t the Turks themselves have princes? And there were khans, beks, etc.

    Ask Mustafin about it.
    1. Operator 10 March 2020 16: 57 New
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      And if before asking a question to Mustafin (who is clearly not okay with logical thinking), think with your own head? laughing
  • Molot1979 1 May 2020 09: 36 New
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    Already asked a question on Topvar, but did not receive a clear answer. So how could the Slavs, armed with stones and sticks, inflict defeat on the Goths, Greeks and Avars? And okay, the Goths are also yesterday’s barbarians, but the Greeks? Avars? Good organization, masses of horse archers + equestrian armor? And what, they were overcome by savages, without armor and with weapons in the form of axes, spears and hunting bows? Without squads even? The lack of an answer, Mr. Vashchenko, can only be explained by the fact that the question also puts you in a logical dead end. On the one hand - the level of technology, social relations and productive forces, and on the other - the facts of severe defeats from the early Slavs clearly recorded by the Greeks themselves. Well, how could crowds of practically unarmed people defeat the advanced army of their time? A choice must be made: either revise the level of social relations and those same forces, or declare the Greek chronicles as fake. Both that and another - as with a sickle on the cocktails. In the end - either the answer in general phrases, or ignore the question.