Military Review

The origin of the Slavs

172

Instead of the preface


The origin of the Slavs. This phrase itself causes more questions than answers at once.



S.V. Ivanov "Housing of the Eastern Slavs"


Soviet archeologist P. N. Tretyakov wrote:
«History ancient Slavs in the coverage of archaeological materials - this is a field of hypotheses, usually short-lived, constantly causing numerous doubts. "


Today, even after the global work carried out by archaeologists, many works of linguists, studies on toponymy, this question remains open. The fact is that we practically have no written sources on the early history of the Proto-Slavs, and this is the stumbling block of all further reasoning. The basis of this work are key research on this topic.

Entry


At the end of the 6th century, new enemies appeared on the Danube border that hit the Byzantine state.

These were the peoples about whom the ancient and Byzantine authors had already heard, but now they became their restless neighbors, leading constant hostilities and carrying out devastating attacks on the empire.

How could the new tribes that appeared on the northern border not only compete with the military forces of the most powerful country in Europe for a long time, but also seize its lands?

How could these, yesterday unknown or little-known people of the Roman world, occupy such vast territories? What strengths and capabilities did they have, how and by whom were they involved in the global migration of peoples, how did their culture develop?

We are talking about the ancestors of the Slavs, who settled in the vast space of central, northeastern and southern Europe.

And if the fighting and battles of the Slavs VI-VII centuries. If we know well enough from written sources that have come down to us, the archaeological sites give us important information that significantly complements the picture, helps us understand many points of the early Slavic history.

The clash or cooperation of the Slavs with the nearby nations: the Byzantine Empire, the Germanic tribes and, of course, the nomads of the Eurasian plain enriched their military experience and military arsenal.

The Slavs and their military affairs are little known to the general public; for a long time they were in the shadow of the Germanic peoples living in these areas, as well as the nomadic peoples living in the Subunavia.

Origin


The Kiev chronicler in the "ethnographic" part of the "Tale of Temporary Years" wrote:
“After a long time, the Slavs sat down on the Danube, where the land is now Hungarian and Bulgarian. From those Slavs, the Slavs dispersed on the ground and were called by their names from the places they sat down on. So some came and sat on the river by the name of Morava and were called Morava, while others called themselves Czechs. And here are the same Slavs: white Croats, and Serbs, and Khorutane. When the Volokhs attacked the Slavs of the Danube, and settled among them, and oppressed them, these Slavs came and sat on the Vistula and were called Lyakhs, and the Poles went from those Lyakhs, others were Lyutichi, others were Mazovshans, others were Pomorians. ”


For a long time, this chronicle story was considered decisive in the picture of the settlement of Slavic tribes, today, on the basis of archaeological data, toponymy, but especially philology, the ancestral source of the Slavs is considered to be the Vistula River Basin in Poland.

Slavic language belongs to the Indo-European language family. The question of the original homeland of Indo-Europeans remains open. The Anatolian, Greek, Armenian, Indo-Iranian and Thracian languages ​​independently emerged from the Proto-Indo-European language, while the Italic, Celtic, Slavic, Balt and Germanic languages ​​did not exist. They constituted a single commonality of the ancient European language, and their separation took place in the course of settlement throughout Europe.

There is a debate in the literature about whether the Balto-Slavic language community was originally or whether there were long contacts between the ancestors of the Slavs and the Balts, which affected the closeness of languages. Recent studies suggest that, firstly, the Proto-Slavs had contacts only with the Western Balts (the ancestors of the Prussians), secondly, they initially had contacts with the Proto-Germanic tribes, in particular, with the ancestors of the Angles and Saxons, which is fixed in the last words . These contacts could take place only on the territory of modern Poland, which confirms the localization of the early Proto-Slavs in the Vistula-Oder interfluve.

This territory was their European homeland.

First historical evidence


For the first time messages about Venda or Slavs appear on the pages of Roman manuscripts at the beginning of our millennium. So, Guy Pliny the Elder (23 / 24 — 79 AD) wrote that Sarmatians and Veneti lived among other peoples in Eastern Europe. Claudius Ptolemy (died 178 AD) pointed out the bay, calling it Venedi, now, presumably Gdansk Bay in Poland, he also writes about the mountains of Veneda, possibly the Carpathians. But Tacitus [Gaius Cornelius Tacitus] (50-e - 120 AD) argues as follows:
“I don’t know whether to include singers [Germanic tribe], Wends and Fenns to Germans or Sarmatians ... Wenty adopted many of their morals, because for the sake of robbery they scour the forests and mountains, which only exist between singers and Fenns. However, they can rather be counted among the Germans, because they build houses for themselves, carry shields and move on foot, and moreover with great speed; all this dissociates them from the Sarmatians, who spend their whole lives in a cart and on a horse. ” [Tacit.G.46].


The origin of the Slavs

Area Przeworskaya archaeological culture. Source: Sedov V. V. Slavyane. Old Russian people. M., 2005


The early name of the Slavs


As we have said, the ancient authors, like the ancient peoples, at the turn of the millennium, the ancestors of the Slavs called "Weeds". Many researchers believe that this term in antiquity defined not only the Slavs, but all the tribes of the Slavic-Balt language group, since this land was distant for the Greeks and the Romans and information about it was cursive, and often simply fabulous.

This word is preserved in Finnish and German, and today they are called Luga sorbs or Western Slavs - Wendel or Wende. Where did it come from?

Perhaps, according to some researchers, it was the self-name of some of the first tribal groups moving from the Vistula River basin to the west and north, to the Germanic area, and, accordingly, Finnish tribes.

Other authors believe that this was the name of a non-Slavic tribe, as described below.

K VI century. The “Wends” were clearly located in the north of Central Europe, in the west they went beyond the borders of the Oder, and in the east - to the right bank of the Vistula.

Actually the name "Slavs" appears in sources in the VI century. Jordan and Procopius, when both authors could really get acquainted with representatives of this people. Procopius of Caesarea, being the secretary of the commander Belisarius, more than once he observed and described the actions of the Slav warriors.

There is also an opinion that if the word „Veneda-Veneti“ was colloquial, then „Sklavinos“ or „Slavs“ had a book origin, such as, for example, the term „dew“.

There is no exact answer as to where this name came from. Until the nineteenth century. it was believed to be derived from the word "glory" (gloriosi). Another version, which also had until the nineteenth century, implied a connection between the word "Slav" and the "slave", a term identical in many European languages.

Modern theories suggest two solutions to this issue. The first links it with the places of the original stay of the Slavs, people living along rivers. Making it from the word "flow, water flows", hence: the river Sluya, Slavnitsa, Stawa, Stawica.

The overwhelming majority of researchers are followers of another theory; they believe that the ethnonym comes from "the word" - verbosi: speak, "speak clearly", "people who speak clearly", unlike "Germans" - cannot speak, dumb.

We meet him in the names of the tribes and modern peoples: Slovenia Novgorod (Ancient Russia), Slovaks (Slovakia), Slovenes (Slovenia and other Balkan countries), Kashubian Slovinians (Poland).

Early Slavs and Celts


In the south of the Vistula-Oder interfluve, the ancient Slavs (Przeworskaya archaeological culture) had the first contacts with the Celts who migrated to these territories.

The Celts by this time reached great heights in the development of material culture, which was reflected in the archaeological culture of Lathen (the settlement of La Ten Switzerland - La Tène). The Celtic society of Europe of this time can be defined as “heroic”, with the cult of leaders and heroes, squads and the militarization of all life, consisting of clans grouped into tribes.

The Celts made an outstanding contribution to the history of metallurgy in Europe: archeologists discovered whole forge industrial complexes.

They owned the technology of welding, hardening, made a great contribution to the production of iron tools, and, of course, weapons. A significant fact of the development of Celtic society is the process of urbanization, by the way, archaeologists associate with it a new and most important moment: from the middle of the second century. BC e. no military equipment is recorded in Celtic burials.

We know the large Celtic cities of Alesia (97 ha), Bibrakt (135 ha) and Hergovia (Clermont) (75 ha) and others.

Society moves to a new stage, in conditions of accumulation of wealth, when weapons lose their symbolic significance. It was during this period that one of the waves of Celtic migration reached the upper reaches of the Vistula in Central Europe in the 2nd century. BC e., from this moment began the interaction of the early Slavs and the Celts. From this period, the Przeworsk archaeological culture began to take shape.

Przeworsk archeological culture is associated with the early Slavs, although on its territory there are signs of habitat of both the Celts and the Germans. Monuments of archeology give great material about the development of material culture, artifacts indicate the origin of military affairs among the Slavs at the turn of the millennia.

An important factor in the interaction was the process of influence of the Celts, who are at a higher level of development, on the spiritual culture of the Slavs, which was reflected in religious buildings and burial rites. At least, what can be judged today is very likely. In particular, in the construction of a later period of the pagan temple of the Western Slavs in Arkona, on the island of Rugen, historians find features of Celtic religious buildings. But if the weapons disappear in the graves of the Celts of central Europe, then on the periphery of the Celtic world it remains, which is perfectly understandable in the framework of military expansion. And the same rite began to use the Slavs.

The participation of the Celts in the formation of Przeworsk culture led to the first major division in the history of the Slavs: in the southern (middle Europe) and northern (Powyslje). The Celtic movement in Central Europe, quite possibly accompanied by military expansion in the Vistula region, forced some of the local tribes to start moving to the Dnieper region. They go from the zone of the Vistula and Volyn to the zone of the upper Dniester and especially in the Middle Dnieper region. This movement, in turn, caused the outflow of the Baltic tribes living here (Zarubinskaya archaeological culture) to the north and east.

Although some archaeologists associate Zarubinsk culture with the Slavs.

It was during this period that the western neighbors of the ancient Slavs began to call them "Veneta". And here, too, there is a Celtic trace.

One of the hypotheses is based on the fact that the ethnonym Veneti was the self-designation of the Celtic tribes who lived in Powyslje, ​​but when confronted with the Germans at the beginning of our era, they retreated to the lands of the north-east and southeast of modern Poland, where they conquered the Proto-Slavs and gave them their name: "Wends" or "Veneta".

Other authors believe that this was the name of a non-Slavic tribe that migrated to the south, and the neighbors began to call this name the ancestors of the Slavs who remained here.

Armament of the Slavs in the early period


Tacitus, as we see, told us a little, but this information is invaluable, since we are talking primarily about the Slavs as a settled people who live not as Sarmatians in carts, but build houses, which is confirmed by archaeological data, and that their weapons are similar to their western neighbors.

The Slavs, like most of the tribes that lived in the forest-steppe zone and entered the path of historical development, had spears as the main type of weaponry, which, of course, owes its origin to sharp-edged sticks. Given the early contacts with the Celts, whose society was at a higher stage of material development, the influence in armaments is obvious here. It was even reflected in the burial rite, when weapons or any piercing and cutting tools were damaged. So did the Celts during the burial of male warriors.

Diodorus of Sicily, (80-20 biennium BC) wrote:
“... they [the Celts. - VE] they fight with a long sword, which they wear, hanging on an iron or copper chain to the right thigh ... In front of themselves they expose spears, which are called “lankii”, with iron tips of one elbow (45 cm) and more, and the width is a little less than dipalesta (15,5 cm). " [Diodorus Siculus „Bibliotheca Historica“ V. 30.3., V.30.4.]



Swords and spearhead. Celts. Archaeological culture Latin. Source: Archeology. M., 2006


In the period of early contacts with the Celts, the Slavs actively use Celtic long and narrow spearheads with well-marked edges.

Later, in the early Roman period, the Slavic copies had tips with a short leaf blade, and in the late Roman era, they had a short diamond-shaped or leaf-shaped tip, with an edge extending into a part of the sleeve.

Very early, which is unusual for a forest-steppe zone, the Slavs began to use spurs, an attribute of ammunition, which Iranian-speaking steppe horsemen of Eastern Europe did not have at that time. In the burial grounds of Przeworskaya culture, not only spearheads are found, but also spurs. Thus, the ancestors of the Slavs began early enough to use horses in combat. Perhaps it was only a warrior's delivery vehicle, as happened with many other forest peoples, for example, later Scandinavians. But the presence of spurs, which had a tetrahedral or cylindrical spike, most likely speaks of the need to control the horse and most likely during a horse attack.


Slavic weapons. Przeworskaya archaeological culture. Source: Sedov V. V. Slavyane. Old Russian people. M., 2005


Tacitus wrote that the Slavs used a shield; from archaeological finds we know that the umbons of these shields were tapered with a long spike or with a cylindrical neck, ending with a hollow spike. What sizes or parameters were shields, we can only assume, perhaps they were the same as those of neighboring nations. Probably, they were made of improvised material - wood, probably, they were covered with leather for reliability, and the umbron was attached to them. Shield handle fastened riveted through. In umbonah, the influence not only of the Celts, but also of the ancient Germans is easily visible, and through them the influence of the Romans in terms of material culture spread to the entire barbaric world of Europe.

The Slavs, as it can be supposed, have not yet reached that stage of metal processing, when it would ensure the mass production of labor tools or high-tech weapons. They are extremely rare, but used swords and Saxons.

Swords, of course, were incredibly expensive weapons, and the presence of Saxon in arms of the early Slavs again tells us about the German influence. This is a wide single-edged sword with the same production technology as the sword.

We have reached several samples of expensive scabbards or their fastenings. They testify to the high status of their owners. Of particular interest are scab shears from the sword from the Grinev burial ground (Ukrainian Griniv), a village in the Pustomytovsky district of the Lviv region of Ukraine (Upper Dniester).


Openwork forging the sheath. Bronze. Grinev cemetery. Upper Dnieper. Ukraine. Source: Petrukhin V. Ya. Pre-Christian Antiquities: According to Archaeological Data of the 6th - 10th Centuries. M., 2004


The front side is decorated with a cast bronze lining depicting different scenes: a bear with a loot, a griffin, two figures, perhaps a hero and a goddess, and, finally, a horseman with a small shield and a spear. Such a decoration of weapons associated with the Celtic, and possibly with the Roman influence, and was common in Central Europe in the last century BC. er

According to archaeological sources, we cannot say that the Proto-Slavs used bows and arrows in the war, or their arrows were without metal tips. Arrowheads are scarcely found in burials from this era. Neighboring Germanic and Celtic peoples poorly used this weapon, and the influence of nomadic cultures was felt only on the southeastern border of the settlement of the early Slavs.

To be continued ...

Sources and literature:
Diodorus Sicilian. Historical Library. Books IV – VII. per. from ancient Greek., the entry article and comments O. P. Tsybenko. SPb., 2005.
Cornelius Tacitus. Writing in two volumes. SPb., 1993.
PVL. Text preparation, translation, articles and comments Likhachev D.S. SPb., 1996.
Podosinov A.V., Skrzhinskaya M.V. Roman geographical sources: Pomponius Mela and Pliny the Elder. M., 2011.
Archeology: Textbook / Edited by Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences V. L. Yanin. M., 2006.
Babichev A.S. Commentary // Cornelius Tacitus. Writing in two volumes. C-PB., 1993.
Martynov V.V. Praradism Slavs. Linguistic beliefs. Mansk 1998.
Niederle L. Slavic Antiquities, M., 2013.
Sedov V.V. Slavs. Old Russian people. Historical and archaeological research. M., 2005
Tretyakov P. In the footsteps of the ancient Slavic tribes. L., 1982.
Shakhmatov A. A. On the issue of Finnish-Celtic Finnish-Slavic relations. Part 1-2 // Proceedings of the Imperial Academy of Sciences. 6 series. Social Sciences. 1911. H.1. No. 9. С707-724, H.2. No. 10.
Rosen-Przerworska J. Spadek po Celtach. Wroclaw; Warszawa; Krakὸw; Gdansk. 1979.
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 06: 35
    +11
    Edward! I just do not have words alone emotions .... Thank you so much, respectfully Vlad!
    1. Nicholas C.
      Nicholas C. 20 July 2019 08: 31
      +2
      Horror.
      Quote: E. Vashchenko, Ph.D.
      Until the nineteenth century. consideredаthat it comes from the wordаwa ”(gloriosi). Another version, which was also used up to the XNUMXth century, suggested the connection of the word “Slav” with “slave”, a term identical in many European languages.

      Does this write exactly the candidate of science? By whom consideredАeating? Slavians is a later word. In the annals: Slovenian language, Slovenian language, Slovenian literacy. How could it come from the word "slаva. "It is a pity that the author is not aware of the etymology of the mentioned word" slave "from European languages. It comes from the Greek word" σκλάβος "(" sklavos ") -" slave. "About the Slavs, the Greeks write:" ... being freedom-loving, they are in no way inclined either to become slaves or to obey, especially in their own land "- Strategicon of Mauritius, edited by V.V. Kuchma, St. Petersburg, 2004, p. 189. This is the 6th century.

      It’s not surprising that this the author, having taken up the topic, is not at all familiar with the works of at least basic scientists. The author weaved the Przeworsk archaeological culture (II century BC - IV century), moved to the great Celts, Germans and backward wild Slavs. And made us happy with artistic speculation about this.
      Real scientists with answers about the origin of the Slavs are all right. The Slavs stood out from the general Indo-European massif at the turn of the II – III millennium BC. The first Slavic culture is Tshinetskaya (XIX-XI centuries BC). This is claimed, for example, by an archaeologist, academician Rybakov B.A. He also explains why Tshinetskaya is a purely Slavic culture, and not a Baltic-Slavic one.

      PS. The author is amazing. Earlier, he wrote an article on VO about the law of the Rurikovich in Russia. During the discussion, it became clear that, while discussing Old Russian law, he had not read the "Russian Truth", which is studied at school. I was shocked. We Soviet village schoolchildren read it in the original in the classroom. At first I thought that in order to fool modern schoolchildren, the Ministry of Education threw out a lot from the program, incl. even basic knowledge. Therefore, they say, now historians are like that. It was useful to understand. It turned out that both in the current Model Basic Educational Program of Basic General Education and in the Concept of a New Educational and Methodological Complex in Russian History, there are clauses about Russian Pravda and other documents on Russian law. This is the author. Such a historian.
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 08: 59
        +7
        It is unlikely that you have ever read Russian Truth in the "original" and even in history lessons at school! In the best case, in the translation (presentation) of Likhachev as edited by Shakhmatov! So do not tell my claws !!!
        Now about the origin of the word Slaven! The author gives all four versions of the history of the etymology of this word! Did you mention two? And then sprinkle poison, so catch a quote from Edward!
        . The vast majority of researchers are followers of a different theory, they believe that the ethnonym comes from the “word” - verbosi: speak, “speak clearly”, “people who speak clearly”, unlike “Germans” - cannot speak, dumb.

        So a person who read Russian truth in school in the original (without publics, without breaks and Arabic tsyfer) simply could not read the article!
        Can hang out in ancient Greek! You threw a couple of points there !!!
        Now, about the opportunist Rybakov, the father of the Russian archaeological site was mistaken more than once or twice, for which he was always criticized by contemporaries and followers!
        By the way, this is his pearl "On the 1500th anniversary of the city of Kiev" right on the day of the Great October Resolution! This is his premise plows Samsonov and followers of the great ukrov!
        By the way, modern researchers consider Chernyakhov’s culture German!
        1. Nicholas C.
          Nicholas C. 20 July 2019 10: 15
          +2
          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          opportunist Rybakov
          Please clarify whether the conjuncturers are also: the opponent of Rybakov, academician V.V. Sedov, prof. V.P. Kobychev, anthropologist Academician T.I. Alekseeva, Academician O.N. Trubachev, Doctor of Philology B.V. Gornung, and those Poles who first connected Tshinetskaya culture with the Slavs.
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 12: 23
          +8
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          So a person who read Russian truth in school in the original (without publics, without breaks and Arabic tsyfer) simply could not read the article!

          Great, Vladislav, thanks, I won't even add anything. Is that for nothing you Rybakov so tough. A person could be mistaken; his disciples correct him, develop and correct his concepts. The impetus that he gave to the development of historical science, despite the fallacy of some of his conclusions, is in my opinion difficult to overestimate.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 15: 58
            +5
            Good day Michael! With all due respect to the work of Rybakov, his later research led our science into a classic dead end! When archaeological finds began to grind to political realities .....
            For example, where did the Slavs-arias of Mr. Samsonov come from? Due to the trend of late Soviet historical science, destroy Norman theory! Moreover, in the 60s, Rybakov had already won the debate on this issue, but victory was needed on all fronts! In this connection, a “myth” was created about Scythians-plowmen, royal Scythians, etc. In fact, from the filing of the academician, the marker of Slavic culture was hung as a label on the Indo-European ethnic group! A similar debate took place between the Poles and the Germans. Some drowned the Germans at the mouth of the Elbe, others Slavs in the swamps of Pripyat. So Rybakov, Kiev needs a lot of summer - catch 1500 years! It’s like my hometown to calculate anniversary dates not from the day the dam was commissioned, but from the moment an ancient person wrote a cave-rock drawing! People lived 20 years ago - they even painted on the rocks!

            And the fact that the drawings were supposedly made by the ancestors of the Finno-Ugric peoples who had nothing to do with the emergence of the city is a voluminous question but one that has a solution!
            So here, there is a need to tie Chernyakhov culture to the Slavs - we knit. The party said to refute the Norman attempts, here is Kiy and sister Lybad, plus six hundred years to the Slavs! It is from these discrepancies that our troubles in the person of the Falk-Histoics climb! For example, below I am reproached for the existence of slavery among the Rus, although the conversation is about the Slavs! By the way, according to Konstantin Bogryanorodny, the Rus of those Slavs sold into slavery! So plus or minus 300 children, these are trifles! Here you have a reason to fill the gap in the history of the Slavs with a super ethnic group or shovels for ukrov! They still dig Pont !!!
            Yours!
            1. Astra wild
              Astra wild 20 July 2019 17: 09
              +4
              Kotya, you are an ulcer.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 17: 22
                +4
                There is little!
                Regards, Kote! hi
                1. Astra wild
                  Astra wild 20 July 2019 17: 37
                  +2
                  I will try not to cross your path. It will be difficult to "butt" with you: prepared and an ulcer
              2. vignat21
                vignat21 20 July 2019 18: 55
                -3
                Moreover, ukropovskaya ulcer, otaka zdorena wavka.
            2. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 18: 22
              +5
              You know, Vladislav, I am ready to agree with much of what you wrote. Rybakov worked at a time when politics shamelessly invaded science and, unfortunately, this affected his work. But I see the origins of the spread of pseudo-historical contagion not in his writings - the supporters of these views for the most part did not read them, and many do not even know who this is.
              Here is another. Personally, I see two main prerequisites for the spread of this obscurantism in our country.
              The first is the high quality of secondary education in the USSR. In terms of history, from school, we learned certain knowledge and recognized certain iconic names of historical figures - both the Ancient World and the Middle Ages, both in Europe and in Russia. But there is also the other side of the coin: we received these knowledge at school up to the eighth grade and at the corresponding "teenage" level. Have you noticed that, although the pseudo-historical attack has been carried out for all periods of our history, up to the 4th century, it has the greatest success in the "ancient" direction? Why? Due to the remoteness in time? Of course not. Of course, this is due to the fact that these particular periods of history were studied at school and, accordingly, taught in a simplified version. It's easier to struggle with textbooks for grades 7-XNUMX.
              The second is the absence in the USSR of a significant body of popular science historical literature. With a significant number of novelists writing on historical topics, popular science sources were extremely rare. Interest in history was fueled by fiction (of course, high-quality), and no one was in a hurry to satisfy it. Who in the USSR read, for example, VL Yanin "I sent you birch bark"? But this book is sustained precisely in the popular science style, and after reading it all Fomenko's fabrications about Novgorod would seem to any person as painful delirium. But there were very few such books. And when the first "works" of Fomenko, Petukhov, etc. appeared, sustained precisely in a popular scientific format, this gap was filled precisely by their eruptions.
              As a result, it turned out that most people in the country had basic knowledge of history, there was interest in it, but no one was in a hurry to satisfy him at a normal level. This is precisely what the folkhistorics have used and still use.
              And the "discoverer" of this trend can be called, rather, LN Gumilyov. The success of his, of course, interesting, including from a scientific point of view, works showed the craving of people for serious information and demonstrated the possibility of making money on it. I don’t consider Gumilyov himself a freak from science, but he was not the “discoverer” of this genre, or rather, he was not, but the publisher who was the first to publish his works in large print runs - the rest followed in his footsteps, no longer limiting their imagination to any scientific frames.
              I propose to terminate the case against Rybakov "for services to historical science", and refuse to initiate against Gumilyov "for lack of corpus delicti" (there is no subjective aspect). The rest - to the kukan and to the wall. smile
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 22: 22
                +3
                All Michael, you besieged me !!! Favorite bagel taken away, accordion taken away, tambourine thrown into landfill crying
                I'm going to re-read Shakhmatov, that is, I have a couple of questions for him! Or cling to Likhachev, well, for good reason in the Tale of Bygone Years - a mythical creature ahead of the engine! And Kostomarov with his kobyaks and Russian Truth does not climb into any gates? May attack Klyuchesvsky, or fight with Karamzin wassat
                Just kidding
                Dear Forum, if I offended anyone in any way - I apologize !!! Sincerely yours - Vlad!
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 22: 52
                  +3
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Favorite bagel taken away

                  Vladislav! Vladisla-av !! Vla-a-hell !!!
                  I accidentally!
                  If you want, let's go cut (in the sense of, quote) Shakhmatov, if you want to butt Karamzin (in the sense of discussion), just take me with you, I'm ready for everything. Accordion and bulik with me. Tambourine ... Tambourine pity. Ready to compensate with good words. smile
                  laughing
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 21 July 2019 07: 38
                    +2
                    In the morning I’ll cheer up a little! Kukan is a specific place - a mountain three kilometers from the Lower Seryogs, so that the New Yearspeople specifically stuck !!! It’s possible to break legs back and forth on a windbreak! We will organize sports races "new history"! We will throw a duck about places of pure power, we will attract isoterics (they have been lining it for a long time), Slavophiles shove the mulch about the treasure with letters, the neopagans about the Russian temple, and the main prize is “a letter to the most honest nonsense from history”! The main thing is to feed this brethren tightly and drink to Drebodan! And there is a start of 6 km on a full stomach and with flooded eyes, no one is far away! And even if someone runs, runs up or crawls, then the mind will have a clear and bright. From my own experience I know any cross nonsense kicks out notably! A minimum of “brethren” will think about how the Arians drove back and forth across Eurasia!
                    Regards, Vlad!
      2. Andrey VOV
        Andrey VOV 20 July 2019 09: 04
        +3
        Eva as you are the author .... but I agree ..... I agree ..... but Rybakov does not mention even more so in the description of the history of the ancient Slavs I agree .. inexcusable ..
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          20 July 2019 11: 29
          +6
          The VO format is a popular science article with a military bias, so I didn’t bring down the whole range of opinions on the historiography of the question to the reader; In the work of V.V. Sedov, all the latest historiography and its analysis.
          The same can be said of the enumeration of all archaeological cultures that to one degree or another associated with the Slavs. It was not for nothing that I made a quote from P.N. Tretyakov.
          Gag in my text is not - in the source - footnotes on historiography and sources.
          1. Nicholas C.
            Nicholas C. 20 July 2019 12: 03
            -3
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            In the work of V.V. Sedov’s entire recent historiography and its analysis.
            As I understand it, the works at the bottom of your article you bring solely for beauty, because you do not read them. Otherwise, on the topic, you would include another work by Sedov - “The Origin and Early History of the Slavs”. In it, he claims (like the Netherlands) that during the second millennium BC there was a single Baltic Slavic language, and Slavic stood out at the turn of the XNUMXst and XNUMXnd millennia "or earlier". It also contradicts everything that you wrote above.
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              20 July 2019 12: 46
              +4
              Nicholas,
              if you carefully read my article, then about the Baltic Orthodox community - and I wrote everything about a different vision.
              If Sedov, in his earlier work, was of the same opinion, in a later work, he indicated that there was both. Read this 2005 work of the year.
              By the way, I never wrote anything about the language, when it stood out, etc., since there are a lot of disputes on this score in historiography, and I knew in advance that the "scribes" would start their bagpipes.
              However, this dispute does not make sense.
              The article is devoted to armament - what we know about it for early history. This is a VO format.
              Once again: write articles and good luck!
              1. Nicholas C.
                Nicholas C. 20 July 2019 13: 49
                -4
                Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                I never wrote anything about the language when it stood out, etc. ...
                Arms article
                A funny way to get off an unpleasant topic. Your article is called "Origin Slavs ", and not" The weapon of the [ancient] Slavs. "It is obvious that the Slavs appeared exactly when the Slavic language appeared.
                Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                The Slavs, as it can be supposed, have not yet reached that stage of metal processing, when it would ensure the mass production of labor tools or high-tech weapons. They are extremely rare, but used swords and Saxons.
                High-tech versus tech whom? The Celts you praise? I'm afraid to upset you to the impossibility, read for yourself how many Slavic metallurgical industries belonging to that period have been found by archaeologists. Therefore, we are here, and the Celts are in ... nothingness.
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 20 July 2019 14: 33
                  +7
                  "Therefore, we are here, and the Celts are in ... nothingness." ////
                  ----
                  The Celts live and prosper. These are the so-called, beloved
                  Slavs, Anglo-Saxons. fellow
                  As genetic tests in England found, most
                  the British are not Germanic (Angles and Saxons), namely Celtic genes.
                  The Angles, and later, the Normans were elites, and the people remained Celtic.
                  And so the Celts spread widely around the world - their culture did not die. smile
                  1. vladcub
                    vladcub 20 July 2019 15: 38
                    +3
                    Nikolai said that they mean no.
                    Actually a little clarification, when was it? Now it’s full of blacks, but they’re definitely not Keltv
                  2. evgeny68
                    evgeny68 20 July 2019 18: 23
                    -3
                    What Celts, are you laughing? This is from a series about proto-cocks. After all, modern Italians are Syrian peasants, longbards and Latins, modern Greeks are a mixture of southern Slavs and Albanians (by the way they are very offended when they are called Greeks, only Elins), Romanians, a mixture of all stripes living in the Roman Empire, etc.
                    1. voyaka uh
                      voyaka uh 20 July 2019 20: 34
                      +1
                      "modern Italians are Syrian peasants," ////
                      -----
                      Geneticists do not think so. In modern Italian mountain towns, exceptionally pure genes from the time of ancient Rome have been preserved. The conquerors did not get there. Strangers did not like.
                      There were continuous incest. They study a bunch of genetic diseases and anomalies. Plus, they kept accurate records of weddings and deaths. So, genetics is confirmed by church bookkeeping.
                2. Edward Vashchenko
                  20 July 2019 15: 06
                  +2
                  Nikolay, the depth of knowledge from Wikipedia is amazing.
                  Write yourself about the languages, the Celts,
                  Slavic metallurgical industries belonging to that period
                  or this period. Once again - good luck!
                  1. Nicholas C.
                    Nicholas C. 20 July 2019 16: 49
                    +1
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    In the work of V.V. Sedova all the latest historiography and its analysis
                    Why are you writing a lie? This is your style. In the work of Sedov 2005 cited by you it is directly written: "There is no historiographic section in the work. The chapter "History of knowledge about the ancient Slavs" is in my book "Slavs in Antiquity" (Moscow, 1994), and so far I do not have any significant additions to it. "P.7.
                    Sedov also points out that already at the very beginning of the Przeworsk culture, the Celts who lived north of the Carpathians were completely assimilated by the Slavs. How wild, backward, just formed, according to Vashchenko, tribes did this with cultural and advanced Celts, Vashchenko does not explain (or, as usual, is not in the know).
                    Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                    Nikolay, the depth of knowledge from Wikipedia is amazing.
                    Bravo!. You have found your last refuge, the last argument. However, this is just the links I give to real historians. Do you prefer anonymous terms: it was believed, felt, there is a dispute, there is an opinion, etc. So Wikipedia is your source of knowledge, once you speak.
                    Quote: voyaka uh
                    The Celts live and prosper. These are the so-called Anglo-Saxons, beloved by the Slavs.
                    As genetic tests in the territory of England have found out, the majority of the British have not Germanic (Angles and Saxons), but Celtic genes.
                    The haplogroup and ethnos have no direct connection with each other. Any Klesov will explain this to you. In fact: English is West German, Celtic languages ​​(Welsh, Gaelic, Manx) are endangered.
                    1. Operator
                      Operator 20 July 2019 22: 17
                      0
                      Quote: Nikolai S.
                      The haplogroup and ethnos have no direct connection with each other

                      Haplogroups have a direct relationship with the history of the origin of the ethnic group.

                      For example, the Finns (60% N1c1) speak their native Finnish, and the Yakuts (95% N1с1) speak another Turkic, the reason is the cultural and linguistic assimilation of the Yakuts by the Mongols.

                      Absolutely the same thing with the inhabitants of the British Isles, who on 80% consist of Erbins / Celts (R1b), but do not speak their native Gel, but German German-Saxon mixed with Norman (the language of the conquerors).

                      Cultural linguistic assimilation, however.
                    2. voyaka uh
                      voyaka uh 20 July 2019 22: 47
                      +2
                      "In fact: English is West Germanic, Celtic languages ​​(Welsh, Gaelic, Manx) are endangered" ///
                      ----
                      Maori - New Zealand Aborigines speak English.
                      But this did not turn into English. And they remained Papuans,
                      speaking historical reasons for the language of the ancients
                      West Germanic tribes of Europe.
                      All Russian nobility in the 19th century spoke French,
                      but in Russian it wasn’t skillful to read to Pushkin. But they stayed
                      Slavs, and not turned into French.
                      Do not exaggerate the meaning of the language. It's just a habit
                      encoding in a specific area at a specific time.
                      1. Anton Yu
                        Anton Yu 21 July 2019 16: 09
                        -1
                        the Russian nobility was never Slavs, Jews of different genera.
                      2. voyaka uh
                        voyaka uh 21 July 2019 16: 12
                        +1
                        Yes, I’m afraid that for such offensive words you would have been called out to a duel by a hundred people from the nobles. laughing
                        And the first one stabbed himself with a sword.
                      3. Anton Yu
                        Anton Yu 21 July 2019 16: 16
                        0
                        you still call the Romanov Slavs, and I myself will run after the sword laughing
                      4. jjj
                        jjj 23 July 2019 12: 47
                        0
                        And the legates, the assistants of the kohan, really have the haplogroup R1a. The Indian Rajs have the group R1a1 / m645 / m93. Egyptian pharaohs had the haplogroup R1b1 /
                        Well, we sinners carry in ourselves R1a1 / m645 / m280
      3. Edward Vashchenko
        20 July 2019 11: 21
        +7
        Nikolay, why are you so "evil"? They didn't take you as a historian.
        If you read and a little in the subject, I again advise you - write.
        Look carefully: I have presented a small list (from the huge material I have used) of literature - check it out, except for Boris Alexandrovich Rybakov, there are a lot of things, then "swear".
        Good Luck!
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 12: 32
          +5
          Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
          I advise you again - write.

          With language removed.
          Quote: Nikolai S.
          You would include another work by Sedov - "The Origin and Early History of the Slavs".

          Nikolay, I look forward to your article on a historical topic, designed according to all the "rules" for which you stand up so much. I promise not to leave her with my attention. laughing
          In the meantime, I see that changing my opinion about you, based on your previous comments (I remember, I even received a warning, for voicing this opinion), for now there are no reasons.
          Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
          Good Luck!

          Join. laughing
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 20 July 2019 15: 11
            +2
            Come on, Michael !!! Or did you miss the Neanderthal Slavs? laughing
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 15: 22
              +1
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              Come on, Michael !!! Or did you miss the Neanderthal Slavs? laughing

              And now let's see what our Nikolai S. is capable of, except for non-constructive criticism. I myself somehow act more honestly - not only criticize, but also provide such an opportunity to others in relation to myself. So I have the moral right to "disassemble" the hypothetical creation of Nikolai S., and with pleasure, on occasion, I will use it.
              It’s just hard to believe that a person with such superficial and primitive judgments is capable of something more than just copying quotes and throwing names around.
              1. Astra wild
                Astra wild 20 July 2019 19: 17
                0
                Mikhail, I think your opponent thinks of himself differently.
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 19: 58
                  -1
                  Quote: Astra wild
                  Mikhail, I think your opponent thinks of himself differently.

                  So let him demonstrate his abilities and capabilities, I do not mind. I am pleased to change my opinion about him, if there are grounds for this. So far, he has not demonstrated anything but a set of stamped phrases and superficial judgments. Well, of course, frantic Ukrainophobia, but this, however, is not today.
      4. Hlavaty
        Hlavaty 20 July 2019 14: 22
        +4
        I apologize for getting into the dispute of knowledgeable people, but I had a question:
        Are there Slavic sources of the 6th century and earlier?
        And it turns out that the Slavs were sufficiently developed to make the goat of Byzantium the goat, but not sufficiently developed to have a written language and describe their achievements. How did their neighbors do it.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 14: 32
          -1
          Quote: Hlavaty
          Are there Slavic sources of the 6th century and earlier?

          Now you will be sent to the book of Veles. Well, or, at worst, to the Slavic runes. Or, if the pseudo-patriotic mold has not eaten up by the brain, they will keep silent, pretending not to notice the question.
          1. Hlavaty
            Hlavaty 20 July 2019 14: 34
            +1
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            if the pseudo-patriotic mold is not completely eaten by the brain, they will remain silent, pretending not to notice the issue

            That is, people "with a brain" do not proudly answer such questions?
            Why?
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 15: 14
              +2
              People with a brain affected by pseudo-patriotism, but still somehow alive - yes, as a rule, they try not to answer.
              If you start answering, you will have to admit that Slavs didn’t have their own written language even before the times of Cyril and Methodius, which contradicts their conception of a ten-thousand-year and more Slavic history. How, Russ, Slavs, arias, the founders of all states, the builders of all cities, the light of civilization and the only engine of progress, and suddenly they learned to write only a thousand years ago, and not just themselves, but simply from the Greeks (Bulgarians)! wassat
              People with a brain who died in an unequal struggle with pseudoscientific fabrications of various freaks are kept on a Veles book, on runes, etc. - this is generally a clinical case and is not subject to correction - only a lobotomy. smile
              In fact, it should be recognized that Slavs, as an ethnos, are historically very young, although they certainly originate genetically from the same first people as the rest. Both you and me and the same Operator or another pseudo-patriot with a nationalist bias - we all have ancestors who lived both 100 and 200 a million years ago and more, as the Finno-Ugrians and Celts and Mongols have them. But the ethnos itself, to which we and our ancestors belonged was formed relatively recently, is it good or bad.
            2. nikon7717
              nikon7717 22 July 2019 01: 05
              +3
              Greetings, Vladimir! In a series of articles by Mikhail, we discussed this topic. Therefore, here I repeat my personal opinion.
              There is a well-established school, the postulate of the enlightenment of the Slavs by Cyril and Methodius (the Glagolitic and Cyrillic alphabet by their students), during Christianization. There is some information about traits and cuts, about runes. But the general opinion - they did not post there was no written language. USE.
              It is beneficial to everyone. Academicians. Churches. "west", politicians and in general almost everyone :))
              The only one who suffers from this is Truth. Everyone doesn’t give a damn about the internal respect of the Russian peoples. It is the Greeks who can be proud that their story is based on myths, and if Schlimman believed in the myth of Troy, simply believed and found it, he proved the fact. Until we have our own historical hero, we will be in F ..., at a historical dump. Everyone will dig us.
              In the annals of Nestor it is written that Oleg, after the conquest of Constantinople, concluded a WRITTEN agreement on paying tribute in TWO! languages. It is already a fact that the Russians are Varangians about the letter, and all the Novgorod boyars, to whom the ancient path from the Varangians to the Greeks ran. Tell me, how did they otherwise deal with merchants from Constantinople? The way was to Rurik by the way. The lodges are flat-bottomed, adapted for walking precisely along rivers and drags! or not a fact?
              If there is no written language, why did Oleg have to conclude a tribute agreement in a foreign (not Slavic, Russian) second foreign language?
              Well, if about the latest finds of birch bark letters in Novgorod. If there, after 100 years after Cyril and Methodius, the children wrote notes, what is the speed of spreading letters, letters, in ancient Russia, where did you get so many teachers from? to the entire vast territory. In the 20 century, there was no 100% literacy, but here, did you come up with all the Russians and immediately began to write Cyrillic letters?
              Or maybe there was Russian writing? Especially when you consider that the Russian language itself is one of the most ancient and complex in its history of development and structure. The name of the letters from the alphabet is painful: Az God I Know Verbs Good Is There Belly Earth Earth Like I (Y - Truth) ... are not consistent with the simple Christian spelling of the alphabet for the translation of the New and Old Testament books. Too abstruse and harmonized by ancient pagan beliefs.
              I don’t want to get any criticism, thanks for that! %)
              1. nafanal
                nafanal 24 July 2019 12: 45
                0
                [Or maybe there was a Russian written language? ... Yes, even a question mark can be omitted here ... Cyril. 860 ... And I came to Korsun ... find that Gospel and Psalter, written in Russian ... and find a person, verbally that conversation, and talked with him, and received the power of speech, in his conversation applying the differences between the letters of the vowel and the consent and making prayer to God, he soon began to say honor and speak to him divlyah ... "Life of Constantine" .. Nothing subtract and did not add ... So most likely the Gospel and the Psalter were written in Glagolitic
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 20 July 2019 15: 18
            +8
            "But here the gray-haired magi came running,
            In addition, the fume "
            (V.S. Vysotsky) laughing good
            1. Grim Reaper
              Grim Reaper 20 July 2019 19: 18
              +1
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              "But here the gray-haired magi came running,
              In addition, the fume "
              (V.S. Vysotsky) laughing good

              and, say for no reason .......
              I beg your pardon, today I am a little "on edge", I could not pass by your comment. ;)
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 20 July 2019 20: 19
              +1
              "But this is how everyone dressed before our era.
              And before our era - they knew better "(c).
        2. Edward Vashchenko
          20 July 2019 15: 09
          +3
          Dear Vladimir,
          there are no written sources, earlier all the more.
          Slavic alphabet appeared much later.
          By the way, as well as not many other nations who did
          goat face of Byzantium
          . Neither the Huns, nor the Avars, nor the Goths, nor the Lombards, the Vandals, etc.
          1. Hlavaty
            Hlavaty 20 July 2019 15: 15
            +6
            That is, the Slavs were unable to come up with their own written language,
            and just waited for two monks to appear with the alphabet ...
            Somehow it does not fit with the entire subsequent history of the Slavs.
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              20 July 2019 15: 23
              +3
              Vladimir,
              I would not put the question. The need for writing appears at a certain stage in the development of society. In a generic society living in subsistence farming, about what and where to write?
              two monks
              they gave impetus to the development of writing, and then it developed, again within the framework of the needs of certain Slavic states.
              1. Hlavaty
                Hlavaty 20 July 2019 15: 47
                0
                Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
                tribal society living in subsistence farming,

                And could this pose any serious danger to Byzantium?
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 17: 14
                  +3
                  Read Tacitus, he has interesting moments about the Gali tribes! Especially about pants and galls. In order to present their Wishlist to tell about their exploits, it was enough to find a birch and get a genital reproductive organ on it! If you want for centuries, climb a rock and paint with blood and iron pyrites! An example from the Serga River is given above. Deja vu - a neighbor’s garage and three universal letters! It’s interesting, but if at school they taught to read and write, then! Too lazy to go take pictures of the garage.
                  The word "birch" also came to our time. For example, the Shingar idol is over 10 years old! Did his master know how to read, definitely - no! Was the ancient hunter able to leave graffiti on the rock Pisanitsa on the Serga River? The answer is no! But seeing a figure with a deer stricken in the heart and a hunter, after thousands of years we understand "I got you a deer" !!! There are other examples of the existence of empires, but without traditional writing in our understanding. Yes, I'm about the Incas! So many bend over Rome, literate people! The most interesting is even possible to draw a casuistic conclusion! Celts, Goths, Vandals, Huns, Slavs - Rome battled both the first and the second being illiterate! But as soon as they learned to read and write, other mediocrity appeared on the arena, who had already torn enlightened Celts, Goths, vandals, Huns, etc.! Oh no wonder they say "I do not want to study - I want to get married" !!! laughing
                  1. Hlavaty
                    Hlavaty 20 July 2019 17: 39
                    +2
                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    Celts, Goths, Vandals, Huns, Slavs - Rome battled both the first and the second being illiterate!

                    I understand your logic, but here I am trying to imagine how this could be in real life.
                    Well, imagine:
                    A lot of tribes live near "literate" Rome. They constantly communicate and trade - well, not all the time they fought among themselves.
                    Illiterate people see that literate people have the opportunity to make lists of objects (slaves, cities ...), send detailed messages to their commanders (rulers), write praises to rulers (and any authorities) ... etc.
                    And no one had a desire to adopt writing ?!
                    Let not create your own. Let’s just learn how to neighbor.
                    No one in hundreds of years of life side by side?

                    In my opinion, this is contrary to human nature. If people were so curious, we would never get to computers.

                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    Read Tacitus

                    It bothers me that you can only get acquainted with the opinion of one side. And the second side is declared unable to say anything about itself.
                    Somehow it looks, to put it mildly, artificial
                    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 17: 51
                      0
                      The fact is that we put our labels on our ancestors! By the way, I throw the thesis.
                      If the society has developed a culture of oral creativity, oral transmission of information (word for word), oral reckoning, etc.! And whether writing is needed above the level of "Here you were Vasya and finished the deer," can Vasya and the deer draw a dot!
                      In addition, to trade with Rome, you still need to break through to its borders! As there from the Roman anecdotes “Galia in toga”, “Galia in pants”, “Galia without pants”. In principle, the farther from Rome, the worse! But a century later the Visigoths will come, then the Franks and long live the equal rights - the advanced feudal system - all in trousers, but where are the Gauls?
                      1. Hlavaty
                        Hlavaty 20 July 2019 19: 01
                        +2
                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        By the way, I throw the thesis.
                        If the society has developed a culture of oral creativity, oral transmission of information (word for word), oral reckoning, etc.! And do you need writing above the level of "Here was Vasya and finished the deer"


                        If we are talking about two villages, then oral transmission is possible and covers all cultural needs.
                        But if we are talking about the "Country of Cities" (Gardarik), then the mouth will freeze to convey information. In addition, the amount of distortion in repeated transmission will make this oral creation meaningless.

                        Which, in fact, happened in the history of mankind.

                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        In addition, to trade with Rome, you still need to break through to its borders!

                        Someone canceled trade caravans with a variety of merchants? Knowing the traders, I will never believe that something can prevent them from penetrating somewhere in search of profit.
                      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 21: 10
                        0
                        Browse the Internet on the topic of birch bark letters! You will be surprised by the number of written in Latin !!! They are only localized by the territory of Veliky Novgorod .....
                        Not for nothing Slavs are sometimes called invisible people. In archaeological terms, the "country of cities" has not yet been found possible! Take an interest in the dates of the formation of cities in the territory of the Slavs! You will find Great Moravia, and now don’t be too lazy to carefully read the article by Edward! And if you try to take into account it’s still ready, the Huns, Avars, Kagaturs and others (irritants) who tritely decided to arrange a great migration of peoples! Then perhaps make even more interesting conclusions!
                2. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 21 July 2019 11: 31
                  -2
                  Without any writing, one could learn to chop and stab with different weapons and, having gathered a large army, attack neighbors sitting in a large fortress and leading chronicles for hundreds of years.
          2. Hlavaty
            Hlavaty 20 July 2019 18: 06
            +1
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            Slavic alphabet appeared much later

            Somehow, we quietly moved from written sources to the absence of the Slavic alphabet ...
            I just do not insist that the written sources of the Slavs were written "in a clean Russian language."
            If there is no written language of their own, no one prohibits the use of the neighboring (Latin, Greek, etc.).
            But should there be written sources in at least some language?
        3. evgeny68
          evgeny68 20 July 2019 18: 35
          +3
          There are no reliable sources, but there are more works of art than historical ones. I am not a historian, but in terms of logic, I like Gumilyov, who makes an in-depth analysis of these sources, climate change and, accordingly, habitat, proves that many facts in these primary sources are fictitious.
      5. Serg koma
        Serg koma 4 August 2019 18: 34
        0
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        . The origin of the Slavs. This phrase itself immediately raises more questions than answers ..

        The other day I visited Denisova Cave.
        In 2008, they discovered the last phalanx of the little finger belonging to the girl, aged 7 to 12 years. It was also determined that the girl had dark skin and had brown eyes. The age of the remains is about 48-50 thousand years. DNA analysis of these samples showed that this subspecies of people is a special branch of the human race, different from modern people and Neanderthals. This subspecies was given the name - Denisov man.
        Further excavations showed that Denisovans lived here long before the girl was found. The most ancient remains discovered here are about 110 thousand years old. Between these two groups, a period of approximately 65 thousand years passed.
        According to the latest scientists, Denisov’s girl only 1,2% of DNA corresponds to modern people. 38,6% of its DNA corresponds to Neanderthals and the majority - 42,3% to Denisovans. Suggested that her father had ancestors - Neanderthalswhich are about 20 thousand years before his birth moved to these places from Europe. A genetic link has been discovered with residents of the Vindiya cave, located in Croatia.

        Consequently, at present, the "origin of the Slavs" can be established without any problems using DNA. You can immediately remove the questions and get an answer.
      6. pru-pavel
        pru-pavel 5 August 2019 13: 40
        -2
        σκλάβος began to mean slaves in the New Greek language.
        Even in Byzantine Greek, the Slavs were simply called so simply, and the word "slave" in Greek itself came entirely from the name of the Slavs (in other languages ​​I will definitely not undertake to judge history). This comes from the German language (where the slave is called sklawe right now), and this term still comes from the Roman Empire where the Slavs were called sklavens (it is believed that due to the absence of the sound in the Latin SK it meant the sound, and the sklaveni has an etymology from the self-name of the Slavs - Chloveni => Chloveki => Humans) in general, in the European languages, there is actually a tendency to call slaves by the name of the Slavs. This is due to the fact that the Slavs had a late statehood, and they often fell into slavery in Byzantium and the Germans, the first Slavic princes did not hesitate to sell them into slavery in Byzantium. In general, in almost all European languages, the names of slaves and Slavs are very similar.
        Greek
        slave -σκλάβος (sklávos)
        Slav - σλαβικό (slavikó)

        German
        Slave - Sklave
        Slav - Slaw

        French
        slave - esclave
        Slav - slave

        English
        slave - slave
        Slav - Slav

        Italian
        slave - schiavo (skiyavo)
        Slav - slavo

        Spanish
        slave - esclavo
        Slav - eslavo

        In general, I think it’s clear that there is a close relationship
      7. pru-pavel
        pru-pavel 7 August 2019 04: 43
        -1
        I could seem somewhat unfounded about the Byzantine Middle Greek language and decided that it would not be bad to give you a proof.
        And so here is a copy of a page from a good dictionary of the Greek language

        Greek lexicon of the Roman and Byzantine periods (from BC 146 to AD 1100) / Greek lexicon of the Roman and Byzantine periods (from 146 BC to 1100 AD)

        The dictionary is in English, but I think there should be no problems translating the words Slav, Slavic from English.
        The right words are underlined.
        1. pru-pavel
          pru-pavel 7 August 2019 08: 27
          0
          Judging by the fact that minus even for copying from the dictionary. Cons on this site are simply tagged with true and reasoned comments. I will at least know what to read mainly for those who have minuses. And with a bunch of pluses, it’s really mainly with a few exceptions that is hollow.
  2. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 20 July 2019 06: 35
    +1
    Great article! Thanks Edward!
    Separately, the Celts wore swords on the right side described by Diodorus. Left-handedness as a national sign?
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 09: 05
      +4
      I repeat, the word "sword" is an ancient German word borrowed by the Slavs in ancient times. However, like a hut! And for example, a hut, purely Slavic.
      1. knn54
        knn54 20 July 2019 17: 00
        +1
        Vladislav, there are other versions:
        The Russian word hut happened:
        - from "khatanga" - this is northern larch. Strong piles for houses and tablets for writing were made of it .. The Scythian / Persian word "khat" means - a letter, khatanga - "to a letter." And the khat remained with the Kazakhs, and the khatanga - with the Tajiks.
        - in Hungarian house- ház (criminal jargon-haz), in Tajik (well, Persian) -hona.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 20 July 2019 21: 34
          +1
          The very north of the distribution of larch is just the Khatanga River.
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      20 July 2019 11: 32
      +2
      Anton thanks!
      An interesting question, maybe you know that the Franks also wore swords on the right. But also the Romans in the Republican period. Why, I do not know the answer.
      An interesting opinion about the predominance of left-handed. laughing
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 20 July 2019 15: 40
        +1
        I once read about francs (now I remember). It seems to me that humans, in principle, initially, are ambidexters.
      2. Antipatr
        Antipatr 25 July 2019 11: 59
        +2
        If I'm not mistaken, the Romans had a practical reason - if in a tight formation to pull the sword to the left, then it rested with the hilt against the shield. The rest adopted this fashion, although they did not have such dense constructions. And then the gladius gave way to a length of spate and pulling it to the right became uncomfortable.
  3. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 20 July 2019 06: 52
    +5
    Interestingly, I think the Slavs are a mixture of Germanic tribes, Sarmatians, Balts, Scandinavians with local tribes that quietly lived along the rivers, a lot of borrowings from their languages, by the way why are the ancient Ukrainians not mentioned?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 20 July 2019 07: 01
      +4
      Because the author is a smart person and a serious historian.
      1. Pessimist22
        Pessimist22 20 July 2019 07: 06
        +4
        Yes, this is a joke, of course, and I wrote another word, but it was corrected to a more correct one. smile
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 20 July 2019 07: 13
          +3
          Good, counted! drinks
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 20 July 2019 11: 44
      +3
      I agree with you, at that time there could not be homogeneous tribes, everyone was constantly mixed up, some went into oblivion, some survived. And by the present period something had taken shape in the modern concept of nations and peoples.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 14: 43
        -1
        Quote: tihonmarine
        there could not be homogeneous tribes at that time, everything was constantly mixed

        The clan and tribal system was called that because people lived by clans. Marriages between representatives of different tribes, of course, took place to be, but were hardly encouraged, rather they could be considered as an exception. The tribes lived at a decent distance from each other, in isolation, they rarely went to visit each other, for many the appearance of a stranger was an event and, rather, a bad one.
        So genetics can really help in trying to restore the course of events in ancient times.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 17: 34
          +2
          Even how bad - "German" (dumb) was not just born in Russia! Oh no wonder Herodotus mentions androphages (cannibals)! Just in the region of the upper Volga region .... and a sad picture is drawn ..
          400 years before the birth of Christ. Sits Sloven (speaker) on the riverbank fishing. Because of the bushes a foreigner. Sloven - who are you. That "will give them." Sloven, but a German! Masha put the water, we will eat meat!
          Now seriously, for similar reasons, the advanced British ate the Tasmanian natives! Sick, but true!
  4. 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 20 July 2019 07: 24
    +2
    Suddenly a question arose.
    Why did Sacramasaks get such distribution in time and space?
    Are they less technologically advanced in production than double-edged weapons, the same spath, for example?
    1. Hantengri
      Hantengri 20 July 2019 07: 37
      +7
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Are they less technologically advanced in production than double-edged weapons, the same spath, for example?

      One blade is easier to forge than two. And, oddly enough, twice. ))) Further, if during hardening a two-blade spatha leads - it will turn out hell, but if it leads a single-blade scramasax ... There will be, just a little saber! )))
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 20 July 2019 07: 49
        +3
        a little saberor kukri! laughing
        1. Hantengri
          Hantengri 20 July 2019 08: 44
          +2
          Then too falcate. Well, superethnos cannot have any Cheburek kukri! laughing
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 20 July 2019 15: 45
            +2
            In SuperEthnos - it cannot, but in SuperSuperEtnos - it can !!!
    2. Errr
      Errr 20 July 2019 08: 06
      +5
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Why did Sacramasaks get such distribution in time and space?
      Are they less technologically advanced in production than double-edged weapons, the same spath, for example?
      The butt (the unfinished side of the blade from the tip to the handle) is always heavier than the cutting edge. Heavy scramasax attacks were more effective at breaking through armor.
      1. Vitaly Tsymbal
        Vitaly Tsymbal 20 July 2019 10: 34
        +3
        For Herrr. What kind of armor were at that time ??? The armor that had to be pierced appeared later. I don’t think that this somehow explains the spread of unilateral sharpening weapons among the BARBARS? Then why is the current kitchen knife sharpened on one side? I will answer - for safety, to save the limbs ...
        1. Errr
          Errr 20 July 2019 10: 41
          +2
          Quote: Vitaly Tsymbal
          What kind of armor were at that time ??? The armor that had to be pierced appeared later
          Armor is different ... smile
          A short course on the history of armor is also available on the wiki:
          https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/История_доспехов
        2. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 20 July 2019 11: 50
          +1
          Rather, everything depended on battle tactics. For example, a checker and a sword chopping weapons, but the sword is double-edged, and the checker is one-sided.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 17: 54
            +1
            Quote: tihonmarine
            Rather, everything depended on battle tactics. For example, a checker and a sword chopping weapons, but the sword is double-edged, and the checker is one-sided.


            You are mistaken. Take an interest in the evolution of karing, and compare it with the swords of the high Middle Ages. For example with an expadon!
      2. Hantengri
        Hantengri 20 July 2019 11: 26
        +1
        Quote: Herrr
        The butt (the unfinished side of the blade from the tip to the handle) is always heavier than the cutting edge.

        Strange logic. You just said something like this: "A sword is heavier than a bastard." )))
        1. Errr
          Errr 20 July 2019 11: 33
          0
          Quote: HanTengri
          You just said something like this: "A sword is heavier than a bastard." )))
          Well, this is only if you pull by the ears ... smile With equal lengths and width of the blades, double-edged will always be easier.
          PS In December 2006, in the Omsk Regional Studies Department I had the opportunity to contemplate a real trophy katana from the Russian-Japanese war of 1904-1905. The instrument made an indelible impression on me. Even visually looks like a really heavy "cleaver". One-sided sharpening, however. Natural head cutter with one blow. lol
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 20 July 2019 11: 44
            +1
            Quote: Herrr
            With equal lengths and width of the blades, double-edged will always be easier.

            And where did you get the idea that they are necessarily equal in width?
            1. Errr
              Errr 20 July 2019 11: 57
              +1
              This is me in order, figuratively speaking, not to compare a pistol with a rifle. smile
              1. Hantengri
                Hantengri 20 July 2019 12: 33
                +1
                Quote: Herrr
                This is me in order, figuratively speaking, not to compare a pistol with a rifle.

                Clear. Those. by the principle: And I so want !!! laughing
                1. Errr
                  Errr 20 July 2019 12: 38
                  +1
                  Well, at least amused ... And all right. lol
          2. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 20 July 2019 11: 46
            +3
            Quote: Herrr
            With equal lengths and width of the blades, double-edged will always be easier.

            Um ... Is that why? The angle of the blade will be doubled in two times. I warn you - in geometry, not very at odds.
            1. Errr
              Errr 20 July 2019 12: 11
              +1
              You can of course make a double-edged one from the same piece of metal with the same geometric parameters as that of one with one cutting edge. Only in this case, these same edges will be more blunt. In this case, we will surely get a rapier-type blade, and this is not quite a sword. In general, we will be able to chop them, but it will be possible to work on serious armor only in the gap. lol
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 20 July 2019 12: 26
                +1
                Quote: Herrr
                You can of course make a double-edged of the same piece of metal with the same geometrical parameters as that of having one cutting edge.

                Yes, but I didn’t see anywhere about the thickness of the wedge.
                1. Errr
                  Errr 20 July 2019 14: 05
                  +1
                  Oh, it’s bad that I can’t draw here. Let's consider not the blade as such, but only a certain model of it (such as a rolled metal product) without a shank and a tip. With a constant mass of the workpiece and the finished product, their volume should also be unchanged. And this, in turn, means that with a strictly specified (unchanged) blade length, its cross-sectional area can in no way be different for any of its (cross-section) configurations. Then you can build a triangle and a rhombus of the same area yourself and compare them with each other. It turns out cool. A single-blade triangular-section blade is always sharper and thinner than a double-edged blade, provided that they are the same in width.smile
      3. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 20 July 2019 15: 47
        0
        With a chopping blow - yes, but with a stabbing one?
        1. Errr
          Errr 21 July 2019 07: 15
          0
          To my regret, I have to admit that, as a stabbing tool, a sword is not very effective at all because of its hilt, which is extremely incapable of fully covering it with two hands (with the exception, perhaps, of its two-handed options) and, perhaps more importantly, a sword with a powerful stabbing blow with two hands is not at all easy to orient in space to the desired point (aim, so to speak). The handle of even a two-handed (very heavy, by the way) sword is too short for this operation. There are other weapons for stabbing. This is a spear. But the most effective tool for breaking through armor is klevets. It’s better to come up with, in my opinion, nothing is possible, because when using it, the usual chopping movement of the hand when exposed to armor is converted to a very powerful stabbing. It is simply perfect, but alas, they will not succeed in cutting it. Any specialized tool is more effective than any universal one. Alas...
    3. Vitaly Tsymbal
      Vitaly Tsymbal 20 July 2019 08: 24
      +1
      I may be wrong, but still I will make a hypothesis. Let's ask ourselves a question - what product (trophy) was the most popular and expensive in those days? The answer is obvious - a man (slave). A double-edged weapon, this weapon is designed to inflict as much damage on the enemy as possible and the likelihood of causing serious injury is greater than the "Saxom" - ie. A “product” can lose its “commodity attractiveness” and, therefore, lose its “price”. It's one thing to chop off a hand (you can't sew it back), and another thing is to strike with a blunt blade and break your arm (even in those days, fractures were treated). I repeat, maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a historian ...
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 09: 18
        +6
        Jordan and other Byzantine authors describing the Slavs repeatedly indicated that they did not have slaves. The prisoners were held in slavery for a certain period, after which they remained in the tribe or were released home. So in a Slavic society, the value of a slave was low! In central Russia, he had to be fed, watered, dressed! And this is not a handful of rice or dates per day! With the then technologies of slaughter farming, who else is that haemo!
        A sword is a status, well, a chance for survival. However, like the reservation.
        Not surprisingly, up to the 14th century, there were various types of battle axes and axes in use! The land army was armed with them even in the time of Peter!
        1. atalef
          atalef 20 July 2019 09: 39
          -2
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          Jordan and other Byzantine authors describing the Slavs repeatedly indicated that they did not have slaves. The prisoners were held in slavery for a certain period, after which they remained in the tribe or were released home.

          a much larger number of authors adhere to a different point of view.
          But the most important provision on slaves was spelled out in the code of laws - in the same Russian truth, Yaroslav the wise. About what temporary situation there was no talk.
          There were slaves in Russia, Russians actively traded them - this is no secret to anyone.
          Dependent population
          The lowest position was occupied by smerds, slaves, rank-and-file soldiers and purchases. For the murder of smerd, slave, and Ryadovich, a fine of 5 hryvnia was charged (Art. 22, 23 of Brief Truth).


          Smerd is a peasant, in this context a dependent peasant. If after his death he did not have unmarried daughters, the prince inherited the property of stink.
          Slavery could be whitewashed (full) or purchased. Obel is a lifelong slave. The feminine gender is robe.
          Purchase - a person who has taken a compartment is a debt, and has become a debt slave until he repays or fulfills the debt.
          Ryadovich - a person who entered the service and became dependent on the "row", that is, the contract.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 14: 06
            +3
            . But the most important provision on slaves was spelled out in the code of laws - in the same Russian truth, Yaroslav the wise. About what temporary situation there was no talk.
            There were slaves in Russia, Russians actively traded them - this is no secret to anyone.

            Eve talking about different time periods! Google when the Russian truth was written and about whom Jordan wrote!
        2. Vitaly Tsymbal
          Vitaly Tsymbal 20 July 2019 12: 29
          -1
          For Kote Pane Kohanka (Vladislav). How do you explain this? "The society of the Proto-Slavs knows property inequality. A fact established through the analysis of the Proto-Slavic * bogb and * ubogb. If the former means" wealth ", the process of enrichment itself, then the latter" is not only deprivation of wealth (poverty), but also the deprivation of those given by God (wealth) right "[Ivanov, Toporov. 1978. p. 253]. It is likely that the circle of the last people constituted the clientele of a noble person, ultimately the one who is known as * gospodirn. The presence of slavery among the Proto-Slavs can also be established by linguistic means. the modern Russian "slave" (Old Russian slave) goes back to the Proto-Indo-European * orbho (child), the meaning of which consists in fixing the diminution of the rights of the younger family member in comparison with the elders; he is primarily charged with the duty of work; compare arbaids ( gothic), arabeit (d.v.n.). "
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 16: 38
            +1
            ... Thus, the modern Russian "slave" (Old Rus. Rabb) goes back to the Proto-Indo-European * orbho (child), the meaning of which is to fix the diminution of the rights of the younger family member in comparison with the older ones; he is primarily responsible for the work; Wed arbaids (Gothic), arabeit (d.v.n.). "

            In the last paragraph, you refuted your conclusion and supported my thesis! That is, a slave in early Slavic society is the youngest member of a family with reduced or reduced legal functions. So any slave in the proto-Slavic tribe received a circle of duties and rights, in exchange for "membership" in the tribe! That is, let the younger one but his own! This explains the existence after three centuries in the Russian truth of a large number of types of personal dependence: procurement, bonded, etc.).
            But this does not change the essence, a slave could have a wealthy man. Who had the opportunity to feed his tribe, family and labor! Given that in the Slavic society there is a process of disintegration of tribal relations, prerequisites are created that will be reflected in the early feudal society. But before him almost two centuries!
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 20 July 2019 11: 52
        +1
        It’s one thing to chop off a hand (you can’t sew it back), it’s another to strike with a blunt blade and break your arm (fractures were already treated in those days). I repeat, maybe I'm wrong, I'm not a historian ...
        But who needs a crippled slave, it’s better to finish off so that he does not suffer.
    4. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 12: 45
      0
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Why did Sacramasaks get such distribution in time and space?

      I thought about it. It is possible (this is purely my hypothesis) that the scramasaks were not exclusively weapons, that is, were the subject, rather, of household use, used in everyday life - in work, in hunting, etc. In this case, the presence of a butt is simply necessary - a double-edged blade in the work is very inconvenient. Hence their mass character - they were not, like swords, an attribute of an exceptionally privileged class of warrior-leaders, but were, as they say, a familiar tool for any man.
      Personally, I don’t take an ax for a long time - I manage with my cleaver, which is lighter and more comfortable to wear. smile
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 16: 44
        +3
        I saw a large Novgorod knife in the Museum. Total length up to 60cm. It looks like a huge companion. The blade is very curved, the handle is wicker (thrown winding)! So Sax is not a panacea. In addition, an ax was a universal means of attack and defense. Cheap and cheerful!
  5. soul
    soul 20 July 2019 07: 27
    +3
    while Italian, Celtic, Slavic, Baltic and Germanic languages ​​did not exist. They constituted a single community of the ancient European language

    I do not agree with this. Celtic, Germanic, Baltic, Italian languages ​​are related, but why was Slavic added here?
    1. Errr
      Errr 20 July 2019 08: 24
      +6
      Aleksey, the Slavs are exactly the same Indo-Europeans as the Celts, Germans and Balts. By the way, it will be said that the Balts are the closest Slavic relatives among the above. Italics are a bit more complicated here, because they were not originally Indo-Europeans. Latins and other Etruscans with umbra lol "joined" the "single Indo-European family" as a result of a fair infusion of Indo-European blood into them. smile
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 July 2019 09: 08
        +3
        By the way, the late Roman empire Tryndela in Greek, which is also Indo-European!
        1. Errr
          Errr 20 July 2019 09: 30
          +4
          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          By the way, the late Roman empire Tryndela in Greek, which is also Indo-European!
          "Tryndela" lol in Greek, mainly the eastern part of the Roman Empire, both early and late. But, nevertheless, almost all of the ancient Roman culture is based on the ancient Greek. This is an irrefutable truth, and by this to you +. smile
          PS And yes, the Greeks are also Indo-Europeans, but only, like the Armenians, are one of the first to leave our joint Indo-European community, but go to Europe by their own southern route.
          But the Armenians didn’t go anywhere at firstsmile(I have such a joke of humor, although, as they say, every joke has a fraction of a joke ...).
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 12: 47
        +1
        Quote: Herrr
        Balts - the closest Slavic relatives among the above

        Exactly. According to some researchers, the Slavs and the Balts were divided only about 2000 years ago, and in the process of ethnogenesis they constantly continued to contact, mutually influencing each other.
  6. knn54
    knn54 20 July 2019 07: 43
    +2
    Edward, I do not see a reference to Orbini "Slavic Kingdom". The author refers to several hundred (!) Sources, many of which have disappeared (destroyed), or in the "storerooms" of the Vatican.
    I recommend reading (who is interested) "The Secret History of Ukraine-Rus" by Oleg Buzina. Heavenly Kingdom to him
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      20 July 2019 11: 35
      +4
      Dear Nikolay,
      I used only scientific works in the narrow sense of the word; I did not take journalism into account. Presented in the article: more or less concentrated scientific opinion on this topic today.
    2. nafanal
      nafanal 22 July 2019 13: 03
      +1
      And what’s secret about her .. I covered all the known facts in a humorous form. Added something from myself. And now it’s already considered a historian .. Zadornov is even a more serious historian. I want to recommend the book by Alexei Bychkov: Kievan Rus. The country which never existed ... The author is at least a historian .. An archaeologist ... But you can't immediately notice Edward. Author He refers only to those works which are convenient for him. And somehow he elegantly circumvented the question that tormented the last several hundred years of all historians: How did the Slavs simultaneously appear on a huge territory and without any signs of mass resettlement of new people to these territories? and. The question is posed by a famous archaeologist, Doctor of Historical Sciences. M.I. Artamonov. Ah, yes .. He wrote about weapons ...
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        22 July 2019 21: 57
        -1
        Alex,
        I will reveal to you a terrible secret: all historians refer to those works that confirm their correctness and dispute those who deny their correctness. This is a joke.
        About "elegantly bypassed" - you gracefully noticed, but I have not yet bypassed - to be continued, as they say.
        Remind me, except for jokes, where M.I. Did Artamonov raise this issue? There was his article, it seems in "SA", I think in 1968, I don't remember, but the materials are far away, about the Eastern Slavs and their colonization of Eastern Europe, there were original observations, but I don't remember about it.
        And finally, my article is not devoted to the analysis of all concepts and archaeological cultures, one way or another connected with the Slavs, and the attempt to build less or less clearly and distinctly, the development chain of Slavs from the period of certain data in archeology and writing to the 8 century, something like . With an emphasis on military aspects where possible, until Przeworsk culture we know nothing about weapons from the Slavs - absolutely.
        Something like this.
        1. nafanal
          nafanal 24 July 2019 07: 57
          +1
          The secret of which you have revealed is a secret for no one ... There is a share in every joke ... But that's why it was historians who developed this habit ... to draw categorical conclusions even if they contradict common sense ... ... Artamonov raised this issue - KSIIMK №6.C.4. Here's something I remember ... I don't believe in the Slavic "baby boom" ... Well, we will wait for your further publications ... Especially on the question posed .. Good luck
  7. Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 20 July 2019 11: 29
    -9
    The Byzantine term "Slavs" is not an ethnonym. It meant status - peoples / tribes that had no statehood, someone's tributaries. The literal translation of this term is slaves. (Sclaveni from Lat.Sclavus - slave). And this is the antonym of the imperial term "Franks", which appeared earlier and which is also not an ethnonym.
    In other words, there has never been and never is such an ethnic group as the "Slavs". This is a socio-political term.
    With the Franks, it is at least understandable why the sicambres decided to take this designation for themselves as a self-name. But what is in the head of those who, at the suggestion of Orbini, Shafarik and other "inventors of the Slavs", consider themselves a "Slav"?
    Venets = Vendas = Vandals. These are East Germans
  8. Operator
    Operator 20 July 2019 11: 29
    -3
    Russophobia on the march: "At the end of the XNUMXth century, new enemies appeared on the Danube border, attacking the Byzantine state." am

    Further, there are quotations of the ancient "historians" like the guano of the mammoth, who, after a long picking in their noses, thoughtfully uttered that there were no Slavs until the IV century, and in the IV they suddenly spontaneously originated - from the mud, obviously.

    After that, linguistics, the most accurate science on Earth (which is followed by mathematics, physics, etc.) with a howl that the origin of the basis of the Indo-European languages ​​is unknown to anyone (from Russophobes) is intertwined.

    Like there was no battle in the valley of the Tollense River 2300 years ago between the Erbins (future Celts) and Aryans (future Slavs). And the center of the spread of Celtic culture, according to the clear conviction of Russophobes, lies in Paryzh itself, on the extreme in LandOn, and not at all in Hallstatt (literally stuffed with Aryan burials from the beginning of the first millennium BC and the oldest artifacts of the "Celtic" culture). And nothing that the first post-glacial inhabitants of Eastern Europe from the Danube to the Oder, the Sudetenland, the North Caucasus, the Baltic states, Karelia and the Urals were the Aryans, and not the Scythians, Sarmatians, Samoyeds, Chukhonts and other Shelupon.

    For Russophobes, the main thing is to pour Slavs over with verbal diarrhea, and then even the grass does not grow.

    In this regard, I have a proposal to the VO administration - to remove from the site another Russophobic hack of a hack writer with a talking name Vashchenko and to ban for a month all those who have merged with him in Russophobic ecstasy.
    1. Operator
      Operator 20 July 2019 12: 25
      -3
      Correction - the battle of Tollenza occurred 3300 years ago.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 13: 05
      +5
      Quote: Operator
      Further, there are quotations of the ancient "historians" like the guano of the mammoth, who, after a long picking in their noses, thoughtfully uttered that there were no Slavs until the IV century, and in the IV they suddenly spontaneously originated - from the mud, obviously.

      Here is a typical example of Fomenko-Klesovskiy thinking: first, on some ancient garbage dumps, to find a bunch of old feces (if not, invent it yourself), gently slob them, pull them out for public viewing, and cover them with fresh ones, increasing the total fatality a bunch of their collective creativity to the maximum size.
      Quote: Operator
      In this regard, I have a proposal to the VO administration - to remove from the site another Russophobic hack of a hack writer with a talking name Vashchenko and to ban for a month all those who have merged with him in Russophobic ecstasy.

      In this regard, there is a counter offer to the administration:
      Quote: Operator
      And nothing that the first post-glacial inhabitants of Eastern Europe from the Danube to the Oder, the Sudetes, the North Caucasus, the Baltics, Karelia and the Urals were arias and not Scythians, Sarmatians, Samoyeds, Chukhonts and other shelupon.

      - on the basis of this, some other posts of the Operator and other Nazis supporting him should send them to the eternal ban, as soon as they acted with them the way our ancestors did a quarter of a century ago, due to the softness of the current legislation, it will not work out legally.
    3. Edward Vashchenko
      20 July 2019 22: 50
      +1
      As for the "ban", you'd better turn not to the VO administration, but to Sportloto, as your colleagues did from V. Vysotsky's song.
    4. Antipatr
      Antipatr 25 July 2019 16: 04
      0
      Daaaaaaaa, even the rash takes from such dense ignorance, implicated in gustopsovskim chauvinism. Arya, it turns out, these are only Slavs, and the rest of Europeans with Scythians and Sarmatians are like that, Shelupon. Well, of course, xenophobia rolls over.
      And what, a Tatar traffic cop stopped, and you told him: "Are you a Russophobe?" We lost football: "Yes, the judges are all Russophobes!"
    5. andrew42
      andrew42 25 July 2019 18: 43
      +1
      I join! According to the author, it turns out that the Slavs are a mishmash of Celts, Balts and Germans, mixed at the junction of areas and running from here and there "from beer to fist." The descendants of the Aryans have many names, these are the Scythians (by family / tribe), including Scythian and Slaven, the founders of the well-known city on the river. Volkhov / Mudnaya), and the Slavs - praising the Gods (and not feeding them sacrificial meat, like the Scandals and the Germans), and Slovenia (Speech among themselves, unlike the Germans), and many others. But no, the author managed to stick the main superethnos of Eurasia into the Hanging swamps. This is fraud.
      1. Operator
        Operator 25 July 2019 19: 26
        0
        The self-name of the Slavs is Slovene from "word" (in the sense of speaking the same language). Slavs - this is the standard Moscow pronunciation of the XNUMXth century, with "o" replaced by "a".

        The composition of modern ethnic groups with a predominance of descendants of the Aryans (50 and more than percent of the carriers of the haplogroup R1a) includes Russians (including Little Russians and Belarusians), Poles, Slovaks, Tajiks, Pashtuns and Kyrgyz.

        In the composition of the remaining modern ethnic groups, the descendants of the Aryans have a share of less than 50% - Czechs, Bulgarians, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Slovenes, Macedonians, Scandinavians, Germans, Turks, Persians, Indians, Tatars, Tuvans and Uighurs.

        Jews comprise 8% of the descendants of the Mitannian Aryans (concentrated mainly in the tribe of Levi and the descendants of the prophet Moses), Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula - 5% (among the tribal leaders and descendants of the prophet Muhammad).

        The Scythians included about 20% of the descendants of the Avestan Aryans (the rest were northern Semites of Central Asia), the Sarmatians included about 10% of the Rigvedan Aryans (the rest were Asian Celts and other residents of Central Asia).
  9. Operator
    Operator 20 July 2019 11: 45
    -4
    Quote: Nikolai S.
    Horror

    This is just the desire of the Russophobic cosmopolitan to pour out his inferiority complex on the Internet (due to the fact that more and more Ukrainians are twisting eggs more and more).
    1. Vitaly Tsymbal
      Vitaly Tsymbal 20 July 2019 13: 10
      +8
      That's right, Andrei (sorry, I don't know your last name - suddenly she's not Ivanov, although I personally met Yakut Ivanov and Ukrainians Petrov) - it is necessary not only to prohibit Russophobes on Internet sites, but also to cut off your hands so that they cannot write - print, and cut off the tongue - so that they could not dictate to anyone under the record their Russophobia !!! THIS IS SARKAZM about your idiotic jingoistic patriotism from illiteracy. You are wrong with the topic. Here people are discussing history, not politics. And each of them, including the author, has the right to their opinion, which is confirmed not by "chants", but by arguments. I have the same surname not RUSSIAN, but I define myself as a Russian not by the surname, which appeared from the nickname of my ancestors of the Zaporozhye Cossacks, but because I consider the culture of my ancestors RUSSIAN and I live according to the rules of this culture (culture is defined here as a way of life) ...
      1. Operator
        Operator 20 July 2019 18: 34
        0
        Click on the avatar "Operator" - you will get into the profile and find out my name from the articles.

        I am not averse to the Vashchenka writing their Russophobic fabrications on the Internet, I am opposed to being published on VO. And where is your sarcasm with chopped hands?

        By the way, and the Cossacks, in your opinion, are not Slavs? laughing
        1. Vitaly Tsymbal
          Vitaly Tsymbal 20 July 2019 19: 45
          +4
          For Andrey. If you studied the history of the Zaporizhzhya Sich, you should know that among the Cossacks there were people of different ethnic groups - Slavs (Russians, Poles, Serbs, etc.), Tatars, Turks, Jews, even read somewhere that there was an Englishman and a Frenchman . Not to mention the fact that on their return the Cossacks brought with them women of different nationalities, many of whom gave birth to children from the Cossacks. By the way, the Cossacks themselves did not disdain to steal children - boys and raised soldiers from them. So it’s clear that I wouldn’t say that all the Cossacks were Slavs. The only requirement is to be Orthodox.
          1. Operator
            Operator 20 July 2019 22: 01
            -3
            "The Cossacks are not Slavs" - V. Tsymbal (C)

            Yes, you, my friend, a racist - deny the classic signs of the people as a historical community (among the Cossacks the language is Russian, the culture is Orthodox) and pay attention to the origin of the overwhelming minority of the Cossacks (Jews, Tatars, Turks) laughing

            If you agree with your approach, then, for example, no one calls Jews in any way, since they consist of a quarter of southern Semites (descendants of immigrants from Arabia Arabia), a quarter of northern Semites (descendants of immigrants from Mesopotamia), a quarter of rude (descendants of immigrants from Egypt), the rest are descendants of nomadic Erbins, Mitannian Aryans, etc.
            1. Vitaly Tsymbal
              Vitaly Tsymbal 20 July 2019 23: 35
              +3
              Yes, you, my friend, are an idle talker trying to pass yourself off as a philosopher - because you have never understood such scientific designations as culture, language, ethnos, religion. It is not necessary to pass off your words as strangers - this is at least not decent, at the most - these are psychiatric deviations from the border zone into the "country of madness." I'm not trying to insult or humiliate you. It's just that between your statement that I would have written about the fact that "the Cossacks are not Slavs" and what I wrote earlier "that I would not have become unequivocal that all the Zaporozhians were Slavs" - there is a big semantic difference. I hope you are an idiot and not a sick person. And second, I understand that you are not familiar with the history of the Zaporizhzhya Sich. I apologize for my harsh and mute categorical tone !!!
              1. Operator
                Operator 21 July 2019 00: 33
                0
                Where did you see such a miraculous judo as an Orthodox Jew in fact, a Tatar in fact, or a Turk in the midst of Zaporizhzhya Cossacks, after the baptism, the foreigners automatically became Russian.

                Another thing is that now many of the Russian-speaking and Orthodox people recall some of their ancestors of non-Slavic origin and with a blue eye claim that despite the language and religion (as well as the numerous relatives of the Slavic line) they allegedly belong to the Tatars, Khazars, a special people, Cossacks and etc. etc.

                You are not the first who recalls the small exotic components of the peoples who speak Slavic languages. Prior to you, Bulgarian freaks were active in the VO, resting on their Bulgarian / Turkic origin. Upon learning that most of the Bulgarians are indeed direct descendants of not the Antes Slavs and Bulgars, but the indigenous Hamitic population of the Balkans (that is, Albanians - blood relatives of North African Berbers), the Bulgarian non-Slavs merged in quiet.

                Therefore, I deeply purple your opinion about my knowledge of the history of the Zaporozhye Cossacks.
    2. Talgarets
      Talgarets 20 July 2019 14: 30
      +6
      Exaltation and performance is so fashionable now ...
      According to the statements of the jingoistic patriots, in fact, any archaeological find is assigned to the Slavs. It is completely incomprehensible where then all not Aryans and Erbins came from, their ancestors lived somewhere, were engaged in the economy, they probably built something, the dead were buried. Of course, we can assume that the rest of the peoples were bred in the secret laboratories of the Vatican (like clones in Star Wars)
  10. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 12: 07
    +2
    I opened VO today, looked at the titles of the published articles and froze ... Slowly moved the mouse, closed my eyes and clicked. One thought in my head: "If only not Samsonov, if only not Samsonov" ... He opened his eyes, scrolled through the article, read "Vaschenko" below. Phew, relieved. Thank you Edward for being you. smile hi
    Now, regarding the article, I have not read the comments yet, I will add my own and will do it.
    Article liked. Everything that I know about this topic completely coincides with the written author, while some of the information presented in the article turned out to be new for me and therefore particularly interesting.
    There is one question.
    I have repeatedly come across information that the earliest archaeological culture, reliably related to the Slavs, was the culture of Prague-Korchazhskaya. In the article she, in my opinion, is not mentioned. Did not reach her turn? smile
    Second question.
    If it's not a secret, Edward, how many articles does the material cover?
    As always, with respect. hi
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      20 July 2019 12: 52
      +1
      Dear Michael, thank you!
      I did not set out to enumerate all archaeological cultures, especially since the topic was not quite the origin of the Slavs, but the origin and early military affairs.
      From here and closer to those periods where it is viewed.
      Yours faithfully,
      Vashchenko E.
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      20 July 2019 15: 14
      +2
      Dear Michael,
      sorry, didn’t answer the second question: I’m thinking 4-5, while I’m working on the layout in order to keep within the format, the material “climbs out” laughing
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 20 July 2019 15: 15
        +1
        Thank. We look forward to it. hi
  11. Molot1979
    Molot1979 20 July 2019 12: 27
    0
    The author did not provide all the versions of the origin of the Slavs, and Rybakov did not even mention the conclusions. Moreover, everywhere and everywhere the Germans and Celts. Okay, Celts. But the Germans at that time themselves were still those barbarians, what influence could they exert there? And stupid spelling mistakes just hurt your eyes. Is text before publication not read at all?
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      20 July 2019 12: 58
      +4
      Dear, unfortunately I do not know the name,
      The article was written on the basis of the basic works listed, naturally, everything could not be placed, the early history of the Slavs, before appearing on the Danube, is extremely hypothetical, and the influence (in archaeological terms) of the listed ethnic groups is clearly seen, and from the beginning of the millennium one can read about this in a few written sources.
      Rybakov’s theory, with all due respect to the work of the late academician, is beyond the scope of my work, since I did not set myself the task of examining all theories. I personally consider it to be unfounded, which was repeatedly noted in the criticism of it.
  12. Grim Reaper
    Grim Reaper 20 July 2019 19: 06
    +4
    Well well, the author. You dug a difficult land for Krajina (and it’s easy to say), I read the article with pleasure. I begin to read the comments. In anticipation ....;) I hope the trace of the part is no less interesting. Well, in the meantime, I enjoy plunging into ..... kghm ... Dispute.
  13. Doliva63
    Doliva63 20 July 2019 19: 51
    +1
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    People with a brain affected by pseudo-patriotism, but still somehow alive - yes, as a rule, they try not to answer.
    If you start answering, you will have to admit that Slavs didn’t have their own written language even before the times of Cyril and Methodius, which contradicts their conception of a ten-thousand-year and more Slavic history. How, Russ, Slavs, arias, the founders of all states, the builders of all cities, the light of civilization and the only engine of progress, and suddenly they learned to write only a thousand years ago, and not just themselves, but simply from the Greeks (Bulgarians)! wassat
    People with a brain who died in an unequal struggle with pseudoscientific fabrications of various freaks are kept on a Veles book, on runes, etc. - this is generally a clinical case and is not subject to correction - only a lobotomy. smile
    In fact, it should be recognized that Slavs, as an ethnos, are historically very young, although they certainly originate genetically from the same first people as the rest. Both you and me and the same Operator or another pseudo-patriot with a nationalist bias - we all have ancestors who lived both 100 and 200 a million years ago and more, as the Finno-Ugrians and Celts and Mongols have them. But the ethnos itself, to which we and our ancestors belonged was formed relatively recently, is it good or bad.

    But what about "Slavic Germany", in which, before the arrival of the Germans, there were several Slavic alliances-states with their fortress cities? And pay attention to their amazing similarity with Arkaim, for example, which was built by the Proto-Iranians. In a word, the Slavs are a product of the reverse movement of the "battle ax megaculture", which arose at about the same time, for example, with the same Germans.
  14. bandabas
    bandabas 20 July 2019 20: 54
    +1
    Are we not Cossacks, are we not Tertsians?
  15. Nycomed
    Nycomed 20 July 2019 23: 04
    -2
    Lev Gumilyov, I recommend to everyone interested.
    1. Grim Reaper
      Grim Reaper 20 July 2019 23: 56
      +1
      Quote: Nycomed
      Lev Gumilyov, I recommend to everyone interested.

      it seems to me, but still Lev Nikolaevich, within the framework of this article ... almost ...
      1. Nycomed
        Nycomed 21 July 2019 00: 01
        0
        So, for overall development.
  16. Popov Konstantin Ivanovich
    Popov Konstantin Ivanovich 21 July 2019 07: 49
    +1
    That’s all right. And they had a fight and reconciled (we are still discussing the history of Russia) and even by my dearly respected L.N. Gumilyov was remembered, something else torments me, honestly, for many, many years, who is this in the picture on the right behind the red-haired (haired?) With black hair and a yellow head? Tell me, really interesting. And why does a hunter need a sword? feel
  17. nafanal
    nafanal 21 July 2019 13: 34
    +1
    Ume immature .. The fruit of a short-lived science .. Do not force my weak to pen ..... well, further down the text. I don’t remember who said .. More than one generation has been beating over the origin of the Slavs. What has not been invented .. Here is the author to the same place Although he did not say anything new. He retold fairy tales from Romulus to the present day. And with what joy I must believe Tacitus who died - if he only lived - in 120, when the Slavs begin to be remembered somewhere in the 4th-6th centuries. Yes and then the Greeks. As if Tacitus had not been read. For the Slavs, he did not have a single kind word. Why did the Slavs, God knows, hurt him so much. Probably offended him greatly. The Romans sinned by this. Exposing their offenders in an unattractive way. Yes, and the current researchers are Russophobes. noble ... The same Rybakov-luminary Yours .. The Germans themselves admit that today's Germany is a Slavic cemetery .. There, up to the magma, everything is Slavic .. But Rybakov, in order to make the Germans pleasant, ignored many finds .. Somewhere in the 60s the Germans dug up the Slavic the boat is in excellent condition .. This is how Rybakov recommended to fall asleep and not think about it. "Patriot" however. It is considered a classic like ... And such researchers are darkness ...
    1. Grim Reaper
      Grim Reaper 21 July 2019 14: 39
      +2
      SW Nathanael. Waiting for your article on this topic.
      No drop of jokes
      With uv. Alexey.
  18. nikon7717
    nikon7717 22 July 2019 01: 20
    +1
    Thank you for the article! I look forward to continuing!
    As always, I liked the discussion.
  19. Engineer
    Engineer 22 July 2019 10: 20
    0
    The author faced a difficult task in many respects from moving from fixing the fact of the appearance of the Slavs, which in itself is a very difficult problem to describing weapons based on a single archaeological culture (the author chose Przeworsk).
    At the same time, recognizing the multi-ethnicity of Przeworsk culture, the author without hesitation relates the archaeological finds mentioned in the article to the Slavs. Based on what? Here is the passage: "but if in the burials of the Celts of central Europe the weapon disappears, then on the periphery of the Celtic world it remains, which is completely explainable in the framework of military expansion. And the same rite began to use the Slavs. ” Nothing that the Slavic burials are mostly uninventory over different eras and cultures? And ritual burial with weapons is not typical for them at all.
    Rusanova I.P. in the textbook article “The Ethnic Composition of the Bearers of Przeworsk Culture.” It notes the fact of inconsistent Slavic burials and records as many as four ethnic groups within the framework of the Przeworsk culture.
    The author mentioned the ritual corruption of weapons allegedly borrowed from the Celts by the Slavs. I inform you that in the I – V centuries of our era, damage to weapons is a characteristic marker of the presence of Germanic tribes. This phenomenon can be traced from Denmark to the Black Sea. The Slavs did not do that. The reason is religious beliefs, reflected in the dominance of the very same uninventional burials.
    The picture "Slavic weapon .. is a fraud bordering a direct lie. In the original by Sedov. Weaponry and equipment for the rider of Przeworsk culture. There is a difference?
    You can check here https://history.wikireading.ru/98502
    By the way, the umbons in the picture have a triangular cross-sectional shape, a German classic.
    Knives Saxons from the Slavs - no comment. I’ll leave it to the conscience of the author
    The scabbard from the burial ground of Grinev is again twenty-five. Where is the Slavs?
    A similar style is here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_cauldron
    What's next? The author will take Chernyakhov culture where weapons are represented mainly by German and Sarmatian samples and will pass them off as Slavic?
    The problem of ethnic attribution of archaeological cultures. Modern archeology generally does not equalize ethnic groups and cultures, avoids this. In the case of Przeworsk, undoubtedly multi-ethnic culture, we have that as soon as the Germans left, culture disappeared. In general, in the period under review, II in BC –III century BC there are no archaeological cultures unambiguously attributed as Slavic. Not even predominantly Slavic. There are mentions of the same venets, the Slavs seem to be there too, but no cultures unequivocally corresponding to them were found. It would seem that, logically, they should definitely be, but not yet. Archaeological finds characteristic of the Slavs (does the author know which ones?) Are widespread, but do not dominate anywhere. Pomeranian culture, which could qualify for this (with reservations), was replaced at that time by Pshevor and Oksyvskaya, mainly German (Oksyvskaya for sure). This is one of the problems of Slavic ethnogenesis. Therefore, the same mentions about the form of Slavic copies in that era by the author are unscientific speculation. It is impossible to justify their "Slavic" in this period.
    The author jumps from the ancestors of the Slavs to the early Slavs and ends with the Protoslavs in the last paragraph about the bow and arrow. Where is the logic? Yes, there is a whole problem. But since the author has already called the Przeworsk Slavs precisely Slavs, with or without reservations, let him write further. Why confuse the reader and produce entities?
    The names of archaeological cultures in Russian are written with a small letter.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      22 July 2019 22: 54
      -1
      Dear Denis,
      Thanks for your detailed opinion, I will answer you, not so detailed.
      First, this article is not an analysis of historiography or a review of concepts and archaeological cultures, but an attempt to scientifically popularly outline a consistent chain of development of the Slavs, with some emphasis on military affairs and armament.
      Secondly, I clearly understand the polyethnicity of Przeworsk culture, as V. Sedov wrote about, next to “Objects of armament and equipment of the rider of Przeworsk culture”:
      “The concrete differentiation of Przeworsk antiquities into Slavic (Venetian) and Germanic antiquities meets a lot of difficulties. The heterogeneous population living in the same territory and often in the same settlements naturally enjoyed the same type. tools and armaments, the same household tools and pottery ceramics "
      , nevertheless, here he concludes that the main ethnic group in this territory were Slavs.
      Therefore, why we cannot very hypothetically assume that the Slavs used these weapons - it's hard for me to say. Why is the weapon of the Przvor rider a lie, and if you write the gepid? Celt? No? wink
      And I never wrote that these weapons were made by Slavs! Obviously, this is all borrowed weapons, but it seems acceptable to me to write that the spears are Slavic, there is no stretch here, as L. Niederle wrote about it: “This is where the Slavs are”: wink
      Not a scientific passage: how do you imagine if the Slavs (Przhora) did not use weapons found by archaeologists, how did they participate in the migration to the south, to the zone of dwelling of Saratov and the late Scythians: with sticks? wooden clubs? The question is not scientific, not supported by anything, but nevertheless ...
      As for the weapons of "Chernyakhovsky": I am writing (already wrote) that the Sarmatians influenced, and how else, on the military affairs of the carriers of the Pshevorsk and Zarubintsy culture, how can one assume only hypothetically. I will not be specific: there is no data.
      Entities will not produce - the remark took into account.
      And lastly, you shouldn't express your opinion exclusively in a mentoring tone: "does the author know?" Imagine knows, the author has, including archaeological education and practice: in order to understand these issues, so I began my scientific-very-popular article with the words of P.N. Tretyakov:
      "The history of the ancient Slavs in the coverage of archaeological materials is a field of hypotheses, usually short-lived, constantly causing numerous doubts."

      Sincerely.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 22 July 2019 23: 38
        0
        Edward, expensive time of day.
        Thank you for a more or less detailed answer. I don’t want to argue about the origin of the Slavs. It is worth writing at least one even reasoned sentence on the topic and immediately violate the conclusions of a bunch of monographs whose authors consider otherwise. I am only for the problem of the correlation of Slavs and Germans within the framework of our long-suffering Przeworsk culture.
        I understand your logic and the logic of Sedov. The peoples (Celts, Slavs or their ancestors, Germans) lived together within the framework of Przeworsk culture for 300 years. It is logical to assume that there was a unification of culture and weapons. But history is a science as we both understand. Household logic does not always work. The bottom line is that Rusanova in the mentioned article notes a low degree of mixing of different ethnic groups. And we know that a common people did not work out. For example, dishes for each group are specific. The funeral rite is biritual. Sedov himself notes this constantly.
        Here is a description of the pit burials, which he identifies with the Slavs:
        Pit burials with weapons are single and contain not sets of weapons (usually two spears, two spurs and a umbon), but separate objects: one spear, one spur or fragments of a umbon.
        https://history.wikireading.ru/98502
        Sets of weapons, ritual damage to weapons, rich cemeteries are chamber burials. This Sedov writes. Germanic (according to Sedov). Or Germanic-Celtic. And a drawing from Sedov with whole umbrellas from there.
        This means that each group most likely has its own weapon. To assume otherwise is a stretch.
        Check by retrospective method. The end of the culture. The Celts and Germans retreated under the onslaught of the Huns. Conventionally, the Slavic element begins to crystallize in the form of Prague culture of the XNUMXth century. Around the same territory. All technologically advanced characteristic for the Przeworsk culture disappears. These Slavs have neither Saxons nor swords. Neither brooches nor pottery. A retrospective analysis thus casts doubt on what they had at all.
        And a parallel with Chernyakhov’s culture. The Germans leave, the Slavs remain. M. Schukin even writes that they occupy houses abandoned by the Goths. But culture is disappearing. And again, neither the swords nor the advanced lanceolate copies of the remaining Slavs (Proto-Slavs)
        I apologize for the mentor tone. Sometimes I bend
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          23 July 2019 09: 29
          -1
          Good morning Denis
          thanks for the answer, a few thoughts:
          I don’t want to argue about the origin of the Slavs. It is necessary to write at least one even a reasoned proposal on the topic and immediately violate the conclusions of the heap of monographs whose authors consider differently.

          Absolutely agree. Therefore, this question was left open.
          About the weapon.
          This means that each group probably has its own weapon. To assume otherwise is a stretch.
          Maybe yes, maybe not.
          Of course, we enter the unproven zone here, but I will simply state my reasons:
          The Przeworsk culture undoubtedly fell into decay, I would correct it, not under the influence of the Huns, but because of the migration of the carriers of Przeworsk culture (Slavs and the East-Time element) under the influence of the carriers of Velbar culture (ready-gepids).
          Not only the active element left, there was a massive outflow of population, Jordan writes about a huge number of Slavs in the forest-steppes of Eastern Europe.
          Degradation occurred in Powisle.
          But, Tacitus, in the period of the active stage of the Przeworsk culture, noted the same customs of the Slavs with the Germans, and their active predatory activities may indicate the use of similar weapons as the Celts and the Germans, which they also produced.
          He does not report anything about the dependence of the Veneti on the Germans or on social stratification.
          You wrote about spears, swords and Saxons - why not use them? Tacitus writes about the shields, and those rare finds of umbons, not even in the burials of the "Slavs", but on the territory of one archaeological culture, as confirmation of his words.
          Moreover, we do not possess mass archeological armaments, not Nosera Umbra.
          However, this question will always be controversial, I will not argue here. wink
          Yours faithfully,
          Edward
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 23 July 2019 10: 41
            0
            Edward, good afternoon.
            The discussion is coming to an end. My opinion is all the same - it is necessary to fix only what is confirmed by archeology in precisely Slavic settlements and burials. And of course what the ancient authors write. Only in this way will we be completely correct. Do not forget that such articles form the near-historical mainstream awareness of history by ordinary people. Though pop music, it should be verified as Osprey publications, albeit professionals wrinkle their nose.
            Cherry on the cake - Mauritius about the Slavs. 200 years after the end of the Przeworsk culture Spear and shield. Another bow. No swords and Saxons.
            Sincerely.
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              23 July 2019 12: 13
              0
              Denis thanks for the informative discussion,
              we'll get to the "cherry") as well as to Procopius, who wrote how the Slavs received Roman weapons and were in no way inferior to "us".
              PS According to osprey I do not always agree, pops oh not a little wink
              Best regards
  20. Operator
    Operator 22 July 2019 10: 23
    +2
    Quote: Engineer
    predominantly German

    Lying is bad.
    1. IGOR GORDEEV
      IGOR GORDEEV 22 July 2019 18: 57
      +2
      As soon as I saw an article about the Slavs on VO - expect heated disputes in the comments. In my opinion, the same happens among historians ... And I'm afraid to be reputed to be a pessimist, but it looks like this will continue until some miracle happens and a genuine historical work on the early Slavs BC is "dug up" in good condition.
  21. Lieutenant Colonel of the USSR Air Force in stock
    -1
    Quote: voyaka uh
    wend

    It cannot be pierced with a sword .... hard!
  22. andrew42
    andrew42 25 July 2019 18: 57
    +1
    Answer to the Master Trilobite and Co.:
    "You cannot count the sorrows of the past, but the sorrows of the present are bitter. In a new place you will feel them. All together. What else has the Lord sent you? A place in the world of God. Do not count the past strife. Place in the world of God that God has sent you, surround with close rows Protect him day and night, not a place - will. For his power please. Her children are still alive, knowing whose they are in this world of God.
    We will live again. There will be service to God. Everything will be in the past, we will forget who we are. Where you stay, there will be children, there will be fields, a wonderful life - we will forget who we are. There are children - there are bonds - we will forget who we are. What to count, Lord! Rysyuniya enchants the eyes. You can't get away from it, you can't be cured. More than once, we will hear: whose will you be, trotters, what honors for you, helmets in curls; talking about you. Do not eat yet, we will be Her, in this world of God. "
    The inscription on two sides of the Phaistos disc translated by G. S. Grinevich
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 25 July 2019 18: 58
      +1
      There truly is sorrow. Such are the articles.
  23. Viknt
    Viknt 26 July 2019 00: 29
    +1
    You will perish, but your glory will remain for centuries, something like this mother said to her son escorting him to war. And because he looked into the water, his name is widely known to this day and forever in the name of the tendon that destroyed him.
    In publications about the Etruscans, in particular, it is written that smokes from the cousins ​​were visible far from the coast. And this is long before the 5th century AD. e.
    Figures from historical science are striking in their apparent scientific nature with the simultaneous elementary illiteracy in systems analysis and juxtaposition of a multitude of facts. When an ordinary modern student reads the texts of the Hittites, Etruscans, who are thousands of years old, historians seem like idiots. True, at a second glance it becomes clear that Russia is a country with an unpredictable history for political reasons, and the historians who wrote it are only lackeys of gentlemen.
  24. Viknt
    Viknt 26 July 2019 23: 22
    +1
    "There is no exact answer as to where this name came from. Until the XNUMXth century it was believed that it comes from the word" glory "(gloriosi). Another version, which also circulated until the XNUMXth century, suggested a connection between the word" Slav "and" slave “, a term identical in many European languages.

    Modern theories suggest two solutions to this issue. The first links it with the places of the original stay of the Slavs, people living along rivers. Making it from the word "flow, water flows", hence: the river Sluya, Slavnitsa, Stawa, Stawica.

    The overwhelming majority of researchers are followers of another theory; they believe that the ethnonym comes from "the word" - verbosi: speak, "speak clearly", "people who speak clearly", unlike "Germans" - cannot speak, dumb.

    We meet it in the names of tribes and modern peoples: Novgorod Slovenia (Ancient Rus), Slovaks (Slovakia), Slovenes (Slovenia and other Balkan countries), Kashubian Slovenians (Poland). "

    Even without being a specialist, it is highly probable that the words "glory" and "word" are variants, dialects of one word. Accordingly, both "Slavs" and "Slovenes". For example, Muscovites akayut, in the Vologda region okayat, Speaking of philologists, they can, on the basis of the laws of development and transformation of words in the language, find out and say when there was a division of one word into two separate concepts.
    In a sense, the word "hero" can be considered a synonym for the word "glory". One study of the word says it had a different meaning than it does today. This is not just a person who has accomplished a certain feat, who has shown heroism in the modern sense, but an animal, an impersonal being that has become a person, who has acquired its own self-consciousness, its own "I". In this sense, the word "German" is the antonym denoting just people who have not acquired self-awareness of their own personality. This is a subject of research for sociologists, sociopsychologists. Without understanding the sociophenomenon itself, the content and origin of the word "glory / word", it is incorrect to talk about the (time) origin of the Slavs. Why the peacock has a bright and large tail is known and understandable. For cheo, they paint their lips and pierce the navel - too. Man is a social and vain creature. Some names are worth something - Vyacheslav, Izyaslav, Mstislav ... glory, ... glory, ... glory.

    Now it’s hard for us to imagine a person who does not know how to speak and how able to speak is different from the first. This is actually not difficult. Such and now are not uncommon, in modern Russia -Mowgli-Germans objective reality. How many “Germans” were Mowgli, and how many Slavs are Slovenian in the past, the question is open, science is silent, but it was obvious that they began to speak in ancient times.
    There is another interesting point. Happening nothing, we measure our ancestors by our simplicity on our arshin. But the doctors, busy with the sleepwalkers, heard that their problem was related to the conflict, the struggle of two control centers in a person. As we understand, neither we nor the scientists have a clue what these "control centers" are. But on our own, we can suppose, whether it’s not a “subconscious” speech, or something that is called intuition in other words, extrasensory phenomena of a person. (According to other widely known sources of such “control centers” (is it not about the chakras?), A person has not two, but more (6).) However, this is not about that, but about the fact that other control centers dominated in the past in man! A logical question arises when was it and how does human behavior change from this? But is it not then, with the change of the control center that the Slovens appeared?
  25. dibaxsan
    dibaxsan 13 July 2021 17: 09
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    [media = http: // https: //vk.com/@167698621-pravda-o-drevnih-slavian-ariicah]
  26. dibaxsan
    dibaxsan 13 July 2021 17: 12
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    WHO ARE THE "ANCIENT SLAVIANS" Aryans
    It is human to make mistakes, it has been understood since ancient times. We base our beliefs and ideas on certain information. The more data we have, the more solid our position is. Sometimes it seems to us that we understand everything, are confident in the idea and ardently defend it. This is generally a positive point. Protecting certain views is a sign of chrobrost.However, it may turn out that due to gaps in our knowledge, we unconsciously fight against people who should be respected and loved, which even turn out to be our relatives.

    The name "Slavs / i" is misunderstood and confused by the majority of people. Most people have no idea what its true meaning is and what is its origin and the defect of the right speeches. For some reason, many people associate the term "Slav" with Russia and its Imperial ambitions. It is no coincidence that it is there that people are so strongly "convinced" and propagandized to them, even to nurture them in their belonging to such a nationality. The fashion for creating nations came from Western Europe. It differs in addition to serfdom and with a striking difference that there states and real peoples do not coincide. State "nations" were created there in our time (and with artificial literary languages). The difference between “nation” and “people” is that “nation” is an artificial Western concept that does not mean people. It doesn’t need a lot of explanation, it doesn’t need complex terms and definitions that are not clear to anyone. The truth is simple, but it is not convenient for a certain group of people, state regimes, ideologies, and therefore it is hidden and remade as they please. The idea of ​​"nation" has become convenient for political movements in other parts of the world. In the 18th century. She settled in Russia and found her second home there and finally becomes a national idea to this day.

    Unfortunately, history from the beginning of the 19th century is written by the forces of the moment, from politics and for the interests of politics and the state. We live in the age of technology, we just have to have a desire to explore and seek. Three things cannot be hidden: the Sun, Stars and Truth. Valuable sources are censored, and information from ancient written records is hidden, and in the past it was generally degraded.

    Until the 18th century. not a single East European knew and defines himself that he is a Slav. Before Peter I and Catherine II, the Russians had no idea. In fact, no one really explains what the word "ancient Slav" means and for whom it was used. However, let's leave aside passions and beliefs and take a sober look at the facts. For the first time the word "Slavs" - in the sense of ethnicity, entered the political crawl in 1593, until then "slavi" was actually "sclavi" - in ancient Byzantine and Roman sources. There are many misconceptions about the name sclavi. It is speculated that sclavus was the Latin word for slave, which was used to refer to various peoples. This is a very naive and erroneous statement based on personal opinion rather than evidence. In Latin, there is no etymology for sclavus, which means that sclavus is not of Latin origin. The real Latin words for a slave are famulus, verna and servus. Sklavus is an ethnonym that has become a symbol of slavery, because the Romans fought with the independent Thracians and made the prisoners shy. This is a traditional practice of the Eternal City. The Byzantine churchmen-chroniclers used the nickname SKLAVI in the sense of "slaves" or "impious" - the so-called nonzuikhs of the official Christian faith - Ariani. We are talking about "semi-Arians" - as they call the Bulgarian Church in Constantinople and Rome.

    Currently, "Slavs" are people who speak Slavic languages, about 300 mil. human. However, concepts from linguistics should not be confused with the name of an ancient people. Russians are not Slavs. No, there is no typographical error, the Russians are not Slavs in the sense in which this word was used by Jordan, Procopius, Marcellinus, Simokata and other ancient authors. Ukrainians are not Slavs either. Slovenes, Slovaks, Czechs and others cannot be called Slavs, judging by the criteria of the old authors who used this term in the early Middle Ages. Here, in the countries about the topic, the question arises - Who then are the Russians, Ukrainians, Slovenes? For people familiar with ancient historical sources, the answer is extremely clear. Russians are the descendants of awake, neurite, Scythian farmers. Ukrainians are old agatirsi / s and anti, and Slovenes, Slovaks, Czechs, Poles, Wends - Vendite, Venetite, Vindelikite, Ryugite, Subenite, Stavanite described by Pliny, Tacitus, Caesar and Strabo. Today everything is thrown into a heap, a disorderly mixture of ancient Slavs, Veneti and anti is produced. However, these are different people living in different lands and with different histories. In ancient times, a clear distinction was made between Slavs, Veneti and anti. Unfortunately, most people don't know this. It is unknown and very important detail that the lands of Slovenia, Slovakia, Poland, Czech Republic, Russia were named Venetia, terra Venetorum, Windisch Mark, Venaya ... i.e. the land inhabited by the Veneti. The ancestors of the Poles and Russians also bore the name of the Veneti. Claudius Ptolemy localized the Gulf of Venice on the lands of Poland, as well as the larger Venetian peoples. Dosikhpor The Finns call Russia with the name of Venai, and the Russians the Venelainen-Venetian people. Unfortunately, very young people know about these important details!
  27. dibaxsan
    dibaxsan 13 July 2021 17: 13
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    But who, then, are the "ancient Slavs" (not a simple Slavian, but the ancient ones!)? To answer these questions, we must consider the work of a number of ancient authors, such as Strabo, Jordan and others.

    To understand how the name "Slavs" originated, we can look, for example, at the history of the name "Germans". Cornelius Tacitus explains that originally the name Germani was valid only for one tribe - the Tungri, and only after a while the name Germani became a designation for all people speaking a language similar to the Tungri language - “The name Germany, on the other hand, they say is modern and newly introduced, from the fact that the tribes which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now called Tungrians, were then called Germans. Thus what was the name of a tribe, and not of a race, gradually prevailed, till all called themselves by this self-invented name of Germans, which the conquerors had first employed to inspire terror “.

    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html

    Today, Swedes are considered Germans in a linguistic and cultural context. However, this does not mean that Gaius Julius Caesar fought the Vikings (ancestors of the Swedes). The concepts of linguistics should not be confused with the names of historical peoples!

    However, the point is not that the name Slavs is the primary name of the Slavic race, from which the names of other Slavic tribes eventually separated. The name "Slavs" is a partial name. Prior to this, there were other Slavic names, such as Bulgarians, anti, Veneti, Akatsiri, etc. It appears after the name of the Bulgarians and instead of the name of the Bulgarians. The Bulgarians and the "ancient" Slavs are one and the same people, but they are named after the name of the Bulgarians. differently.

    “The Bulgarians were the people who to the greatest extent contributed to the organization and formation of civilization throughout Eastern Europe. The Proto-Bulgarians organized the Bulgarian-Slavic tribes into one nation, where the Bulgarian spirit and culture remained the primacy of eternal times. ”Professor Geza Feher, a Byzantologist, also studied the history of the ancient Bulgarians and Magyars, as well as the historical ties between them.

    If scholars in the blisk past were objective and did not obey and did not put a patch on the state, they would explain to the most important and at the same time the most unknown for most people the fact that the ancient Slavs were not the ancestors of Russians, Poles, Czechs, Slovenes and others. , and de facto are Getae - Thracian people. However, they lived mainly in the Balkans. The traditional Getae lands are Northern Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, southern Ukraine and southern Russia. Of course, there were Getae on the lands of Slovakia and even Germany, because there Strabo puts their western border - in the Hercynian Forest - Strab.VII.3.1. The Getae are described in the writings of the father of history Herodotus as the most brave and fair of the Thracians. Describing the lands of the Thracian Getae tribe, Strabo mentions that the territory of this people began in the Hercynian forest - the Black Forest. There it is only a narrow strip along the Danube, expanding towards the territory of Tiraget. “The land of the Getae, which, though narrow at first, stretching as it does along the Ister on its southern side and on the opposite side along the mountain-side of the Hercynian Forest (for the land of the Getae also embraces a part of the mountains), afterwards broadens out towards the north as far as the Tyregetae. "

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7C*.html

    The Tiragetes inhabited the lands along the Tiras River - the old name of the Dniester. According to Strabo, the Getae owned a long strip of land - from Germany to today's Ukraine. Sclaveni is located in approximately the same territory of Jordan (note, sklaveni, not slaviani, explanation further): from Lake Murza (Osijek, Croatia) to the Dniester. “The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula”.

    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html#geograph

    The fact that the ancient Slavs and the Getae were one and the same people, we learn from T. Simokata, who wrote - “The Getae, also called Sklavi (Sclavi), cross the borders of Thrace ... Sklavins or Getae, because they were so called in ancient times ". The expression in antiquity is important, it shows that the Sklavini (Slavs) are not a new people. This is evidenced by their tribal names. One of the most famous Slavic ethnonyms Yeti in Berzitite, Sagudatite and Ezerite. These people were mentioned by Pliny Staryi in the Balkans in the first century under the names brizei, sgaugdi and ozeriati (Historia Naturalis, IV.xi.40, III.xxv.148). Contemporary historians stubbornly ignore this important fact!

    According to Strabo, "The Getae belong to the same clan as the Mizi, another separate Thracian people who became the nameyvat Bulgarians in the early Middle Ages."

    In fact, it was directly said by the monk Fulco: “ul Vulgariorum, quos voitant Thracas, ut habent foundationa Priorum”.
  28. dibaxsan
    dibaxsan 13 July 2021 17: 14
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    Not only from the testimonies from Simokat and Pliny, we understand that the ancient Slavs are the local Thracian people. Pseudo-Maurice writes about the old Slavs that after the death of her husband, a woman committed ritual suicide (F. Curta, The Making the Slavs, Cambridge University Press, 2007, p.51). About a thousand years ago, Herodotus mentioned the same custom of the voluntary death of a Thracian woman - History, IV.5. This special rite is unknown to the Venetians (Slovenia, Slovaks, Poles, Czech Republics, Russians) described by Claudius Ptolemy in his Geography. We see that although they are relatives of the old Slavs, the Veneti are not identical with him. Likewise, Vikings are related to today's Austrians, but this does not give us the right to call the old Austrians Vikings. Kinship and identity are two different things that should not be confused !!!

    The English researcher Arnold Toynbe writes in his 12-volume edition of the history of nations that “... There were 21 civilizations in the Ancient World .. One of them is Bulgarian. It expanded its borders thanks to its HIGH CULTURAL INFLUENCE. Ikhnya Territory from Belgrade to Crimea and from the Carpathians to the White Sea, named in antiquity as Thracian.

    The world famous Russian Academician Dmitry Likhachov in his book "Development of Russian Literature in the X-XVII centuries", Leningrad 1937, 37, notes: "......" The Bulgarian State of the Spirit stretches from the Baltic Sea to the Pacific Ocean, and from the Arctic ocean to the Indian Ocean ”.

    According to the information of St. Jerome, D. Khomatian and others, we understand that the new name of the Thracian tribe Mizi is Bulgarians. On its map, about 380 was created. in. St. Jerome calls the heti of the land Mesia hec et Vulgaria - Mizia, as well as Bulgaria

    WHO ARE THE "ANCIENT SLAVIANS" Aryans, image # 1
    D. Khomatian not only calls the Bulgarians the Mizi-Thracian people, but also connects them with specific events from the past: “This great father of ours in Bulgaria was from the European Mizi family, whom the people also know as Bulgarians. In ancient times they were expelled by the military forces of Alexander from Olympus near Bruce to the Northern Ocean and the Dead Sea, and after a long time they crossed the Danube with a terrible army and captured all the neighboring regions: Pannonia and Dalmatia, Thrace and Illyricum and most of Macedonia and Thessaly. "

    Ie Sklavini-Getas and Mizi-Bulgarians belong to the same ethnic group!

    Attention! There is a difference between the real past and the artistic world of such works as "The Lord of the Rings" and "History Textbook for Grade 10" ....
    Since this Sklavini tribe is best known and recorded by the Romans and Greeks, it was filled with horror and fear, it crawls as a gathering for all peoples who speak kindred, close languages. Getti-Slavs beat the strongest from their relatives, causing the most serious "problems "Rome and Greece became both famous and mentioned in ancient sources as Sklavini. The Arabs also knew the power of the ancient Geti. The poet Al Akhtal used the name of the Slavs as a metaphor for danger (Kurt, The Making of Slavs p. 111). Some of the old Slavs were even recruited as mercenaries in the Roman army because of their qualities of good warriors (Kurt, The Making of Slavs p. 349) .. In three books, the Egyptian chronicler Theophylact Simokata explains that the Slavs are the new name of the Getae. their language is related to the Venetian, over time the Veneti began to be called Slavs, and their language - Slavic. Of course, not only the popularity of the name Sklavini-Slaviani among the Romans and Greeks is the reason for its imposition. Numerous, but weak Veneti (Slovenia, Slovakia, Poland, Czech Republic, Russia) called themselves Slavs, too, and for the fact that they themselves had horror, old and respect from the enemies.

    Magnus Felix Enodius, 486 Bishop in Pavia (Italy): “Bulgarians are people who have everything they want. They believe the world is open to them. They never doubt their victory. These are the people who are admired by the weight of the world. "

    Troparch of Byzantine, 999: "The Bulgarians were the most just of all nations, and from all over the world they worshiped most of these virtues, and they themselves gained great glory, and cities and peoples joined them voluntarily."

    Anastasiy Bibliotekar: “The Bulgarians united their lands in accordance with their kinship law” (This is because the Bulgarians are the indigenous peoples of the Balkans, Eastern Europe and the Volga-Urals and created the first state of Idel, 17 years ago). Historians, including Arabic, also write that at that time the world language of diplomacy was Bulgarian (Old Bulgarian)
  29. dibaxsan
    dibaxsan 13 July 2021 17: 15
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    Some modernists give the word "slavian" as "glorious people", those who spread words, knowledge, culture, skills, what they actually eat. Bulgarians create and disseminate the alphabet Boharitsa (Cyrillic), which today is used not only by Bulgarians , but also Serbs, Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians and others. Boharitsa is the most ancient occult alphabet on earth, belonging to the most ancient occult people - the Bulgarian. Before Constantine and Methodius replaced X and K with G, the Bulgarian states were called Bohara, Balkhara, Balkh , Bolk.

    The Boharian / Bulgarian alphabet is the alphabet of the Copts, which are the Boharian tribe. To this day, they live in Egypt and speak the ancient Boharian / Bulgarian, which is understandable to every Bolgar.

    “Bulgaria is a blessed country! It is no coincidence that the Forces sent me here. .... The Bulgarian letter is one of the oldest on earth ... Oh, how ancient Bulgaria is! She gave a lot to the world, but the world will give her too ... "Bulgarian prophetess Vangelia Gushcherova-Baba Vanga

    ".... Because from here went to Russia and faith, and the book, and the patriarch. We sent all God's deeds to her." Shining Reverend Stoina (Spiritual teacher Babu Vange)

    “Ukrainians, as well as Belarusians and Russians, all remember that our writing, culture and Orthodox Christian faith come from Bulgaria, and I want to recall the fact that the first two Ukrainian patriarchs are ethnic Bulgarians - Grigory Tsamblak and Cyprian.” Vyacheslav Pomavsky - Ambassador of Ukraine to Bulgaria.

    Scientifically proven Bulgarian phenomenon Slava Servyukova (Prophetess Baba Vanga for Slava Sevryukov: “What she said, drew or drew, will come true!”):

    “The psychic charge of the Bulgarians is invaluable! The country will overcome the crisis and strengthen itself. Future spiritual leaders will be born of our God-chosen people. This is no coincidence - the written language of the Slavic tribe appeared through us more than a thousand years ago. We will have to expand this culture. It is karmically meant. "

    “Sooner or later, the unification of the Slavs is inevitable. He will bring great conquests to humanity. Bulgaria will be a reserve of Spirituality. Our people to the end to realize the noble messianic role in relation to the Slavs. "

    "Remember - great Wisdom will go from Bulgaria on earth. In front of the world will be amazed to learn what our tribe has given to Humanity. This honor is high. As for the Slavs, the future belongs to them."

    “We are one of the most ancient peoples of Europe, we will not be destroyed. As long as there is life on Earth, Bulgarians will not disappear. Therefore, I tell you that we are chosen by God. Other nations will be erased, we will not "

    “The miracle is explained not only by the genius of Cyril and Methodius, to create an alphabet, spelling (spelling), but also on the basis of Bulgarian - a sublime, subtle literary language capable of expressing the most complex ideas. The miracle is mainly due to the fact that the Bulgarian people were able to perceive it. And the ability to perceive the health of the Bulgarian people, because Bulgaria has long been a territory of great cultures ... "Russian Academician Dmitry Likhachov," Development of Russian literature in the 1937th-XNUMXth centuries ", Leningrad XNUMX

    Prof. Norman Davis, England: “Bulgarians are the core of European civilization”.

    French Presidents for Bulgarians:

    Charles de Gaulle 1962: "The Bulgarian state is a swing of the European culture and civilizations"

    Francois Mitterrand: "The Bulgarian people are one of the creators of the Civilizations of our planet."

    Italian President Carlo Ciampi speaking at the opening ceremony of the 2006 Winter Olympics. in Turin: “Bulgarians are one of the first creators of our Civilization”.

    The fact is that the anthropological characteristics of the so-called "ancient Slavs" and the Thracians are strikingly identical. An indisputable fact is that the ancient Bulgarians became the basis of related languages ​​and cultural peoples. The truth is not difficult, but in the past a certain group of people deliberately distorted concepts and imposed dogmas. Today we have access to information, we can verify it, and this leads to the destruction of dogma. Recent genetic studies have been of great help, which showed that a significant part of the modern Bulgarians carry the blood of the population that inhabited the lands of modern Bulgaria and the Balkan Peninsula even in the Stone Age. Modern Y DNA analysis confirms that the Bulgarians are descendants of the indigenous population that inhabited the Balkans from 13 up to 000 years ago. Their homeland is named in the modern territory, Danube Bulgaria in the Balkans https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9/

    Another proof of the ancient Balkan roots of the Bulgarians comes from the Mycenaean documents of the Bronze Age - PY Cn328, PY An 209, KN Dd 1193, 1197 Ea 302 lxxxi, 473 Rq 61 xcvii, 468 Xm11 lii and others, found in Pylos, Knossos and other places ... Names such as Ermi, Vokil and Dulo are found on the tiles on katorai, and these are the names of three old Bulgarian ruling families. In the Mycenaean documents of the Bronze Age there are also ancient variants of ancient Bulgarian names such as Toktu-Tokt, Krum, Vinay-Vinekh, Kubir-Kuber , Karmesiy-Kormesiy, Sever-Sevar, Omer-Umar. The ancient variants of the seven names of the Bulgarian rulers were registered here in the Balkans, about a millennium before the appearance of such Greek names as Aristides, Miltiades and others. John Chodik himself reluctantly admitted that typical Greek names with the suffixes -ides are completely absent in the Mycenaean documents, - ades .....

    The so-called and recently popular in Russian media "Slavic" gene R1a1 appeared on the Bulgarian territory not only during the time of Justinian the Great - 527, but several millennia earlier.

    Scientists from the University of Michigan found out and explained that R1a1 carriers inhabited the Balkans 13-500 years ago, and in Russia they appeared about seven millennia later. It was also discovered that R11a500 is a typical marker of the ancient Aryans, and let's not forget that the oldest name for Trakia / Thrace is Aria. More on that later. The Thracians inhabiting the Southern Balkans left a huge number of their toponyms and hydronyms, and the fact that these ancient names of cities and rivers can be explained in Bulgarian is another confirmation that the Bulgarians and the Thracians are two names for the same people. ...

    Numerous independent DNA tests for the Bulgarian genotype prove that Bulgarians have Thracian genes - 49% of Thracian blood, according to research from the Swiss Institute IGENEA. All percentages and data related to DNA genealogy and the origin of European peoples are the official results of the Pan-European Root Removal Study conducted by the world's leading genetic research institute IGENEA in Zurich, Switzerland and published in more than 500 scientific articles and their publications in leading international scientific journals!

    “For us the indigenous population of the Bulgarian lands are Thracians, and in this sense we accept them as proto-Bulgarians, you (Bulgarians) are 49 percent Thracians as a people” - Director of the Swiss Institute of Genetics “Igenia”, Zurich Amanda Felber 27.05.2009. (For comparison of the Thracian gene, genetic material was taken from the skeletons of 7 Thracian tombs in different parts of Bulgaria. So far, 50 Thracian tombs have been discovered on the territory of Bulgaria! The genetic material of these samples coincides on average 000% on the genetic material of 45 modern ethnic Bulgarians were given a voluntary trial.)

    The Secretary General of the World Tourism Organization at the United Nations (UN), Taleb Rifay, on September 17.09.2018, XNUMX, officially stated that the Thracian Civilization is Bulgarian, that the rights to it cannot be disputed by any other country.
  30. dibaxsan
    dibaxsan 14 July 2021 10: 35
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    In the modern world, any "virtual" information can be substituted or changed. But information from toponyms can reinforce, remove even replace any chronicle or modern analysis in search of truth. With the help of toponyms and hydronyms, we can understand what kind of people lived when and where. Each ethnic group inhabiting a given territory, over time, retains its names of settlements, mountains, rivers, etc. By the peculiarities of the names, we can understand with great confidence how far the possessions of certain people have spread.

    "Learn, gentlemen, learn, and you will learn many, many more about Bulgars, for they WERE EVERYWHERE" - Academician Nikolay.Ya.Marr

    Toponyms and hydronyms associated with the ethnonym Bulgar-Bolgar all over the WORLD: https://a-salpagarov.blogspot.com/2015/03/bolgar-toponims.html?spref=fb&fbclid=IwAR3lvpLz3YH7r06PimskPCLVX3ZUrtyBu6PimskPCLVX2ZUZBU

    Genetic memory and kinship between the Danube Bulgarians and Thrace have been preserved to this day. In the national anthem of Bulgaria, Poyotsa: ".... Slantse Trakia ogryava ... (The sun of Phragia heats / illuminates)". In Bulgaria there is the Trakiiska valley. In Bulgaria the oldest ritual temple in honor of the Sun - 8000 years old. The Bulgarian Solar Calendar was recognized by UNESCO in 1976 as the most perfect and ancient calendar in the world. (The Chinese (lunar) resemblance has been created in many respects). For the ancient Bulgarians, the Sun is synonymous with the name of the Universe, Cosmological knowledge katorae modern patomites sing in their national anthem! The Bulgarian people are the only people in Europe who managed to preserve their ethnic name and the name of their country unchanged since the founding of the first of their countries on the European continent, and then in the Balkans for 18 centuries. The ethnonyms Getae and Slavs have Aryan origin and the same meaning. Getty is akin to the Aryan verb gayate-vazpyav, glorification from songs, and the Slavs are almost identical to the Aryan Slavan-Slavs, glory. The Slavs are nothing more than a new name for the Getae, who, according to Herodotus, are the most peaceful, but at the same time the most brave Thracian people. This is not the place for details, I will just add that all Thracian words denoting water basins, coincide with Bulgarian. Is it not absurd to define the Thracians that they differ from the Bulgarians, or vice versa, and at the same time the Thracian words are indistinguishable from the Bulgarian ones? In the Bulgarian language it is possible to explain not only the Thracian hydronyms. In the work of Procopius we find the names of settlements that are very important for us. These are Γάβραιον / Gabraion, Βαζινος / Bazin, Δαβάνυς / Daban, Βέρζανα / Berzana, Βορβρεγα / Borbrega. Thanks to these ancient names, we learn which Thracian names some of the trees have katorae correspond 100% to the Bulgarian names Γάβρ-Gabar, Βαζ-Бъз, Δαβ-Дъб, Βέρζα-Breza, Βορ-Bor. On the other hand, the Thracian toponyms find their continuation in the names of the Bulgarian settlements Gabrovo, Bazenik,, Brezovo, Breznik, Borovo, Dabene. Again, we cannot talk about the disappearance of some toponyms and the appearance of others with a completely different character. Do not forget that the names for different types of wood refer to the main vocabulary, and it is extremely conservative. None of the above mentioned garads have ANY logical meaning or translation in Latin or Greek! Only in Bulgarian. For a long time, the public was mistaken about the fact that that the so-called Church Slavonic language was common to all peoples today called Slavic. The fact is that what scientists call Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavonic is Old Bulgarian.

    At least 55 percent of the Russian language is Old Bulgarian! No self-respecting linguist will deny this.

    The only person who knew 184 languages ​​in the world was Academician Nikolai Yakovlevich Mar (1864-1934). Academician Mar has scientifically proved that all the main languages ​​of the planet come from the ancient Bulgarian language.

    The relationship between the ancient Bulgarians and the "ancient Slavs" shows why there is no foreign language substrate in the Bulgarian language. The kinship of the old Bulgarians and Slavs explains why the Bulgarian language is the best candidate for translating Thracian place names, hydronyms, personal names and inscriptions!

    Seven Geta (Thracian) tribes, which are part of the Bulgarian state (Povtarayu, Bulgarians are the indigenous peoples of the Balkans, Eastern Europe and the Volga-Urals and created the first state of Idel, 17 years ago. The seven Bulgarian states are based on the European continent.), Already the most known as the "Seven Slavic Tribes"! Thracian gods are more likely to occupy places under other names in "Slavian Mythology". For example: Perkun - Thracian god of thunder. Its name means the one who strikes, beats and is associated with the Bulgarian verb to work, which has variants for the first, perks - to beat. Perkun in Slavianska mythology is already Perun. Pleistor is another Thracian deity of light. Its name is associated with the Aryan verbs plasate, blasate - to shine. Pleistor means shiny. The name Pliska is associated with the ancient Thracian theonym. The old Bulgarian capital is also called Pliskava, which corresponds to our glamorous adjective. Zumudros is the god of healing. His name means snake killer. Zoom corresponds to the Bulgarian dialect of the word zm - serpent, and udros verb udryam - to strike. It should be clarified that in the past, P and B were used interchangeably in Bulgarian. Pridjk - sharp is equivalent to bridjk - sharp, paberki is equivalent to babki ... Playstor is just a variant of Blaistor - brilliant. Hachu will note that absolutely everyone has a meaning, action, verb, personal name, associated with theonyms, i.e., that they belong to a people speaking the Bulgarian dialect.

    It was mentioned that all peoples defined today as Slavic have a common P1a1 gene, which is also the gene of the ancient Aryans. This explains why the names Slavs, Wends, Anti, Subenians and Stavans are easily explained in Aryan.

    Slavs comes from the Vedic words glory-glory, slavana-slavene (vyhvalba)

    Veneti, wendy refers to the Vedic vandaya-glory, vandai-glory.

    Anti shows a connection with Thracian anti and Vedic anta-end.

    Other ancient names of the related tribes Subeni and Stavani are defined as incorrectly spelled Slavani, Slovenia. However, the truth is that stavani and subeni are separate Aryan words that have the same meaning as Slavs. Stavani is from the Vedic word stavana-slavene, and subeni from subana-slavene ...

    The father of history provides valuable information, but "for one reason or another" it is not used by scholars studying the history of the ancient Aryans. Herodotus believes that the Aryans are the more ancient name of the Medes - He. VII.62. Pliny Stari believes that the Sarmatians are descendants of the Medes - Plin.VI.19. The Sarmatians themselves are identified as part of the Geth family - Proc.BG.III.ii.2-3.

    The connection between the Getae and the ancient Aryans is important, and the fact that the oldest name for Thrace is Aria!

    An excerpt from the robot of Stephen of Byzantine, which explains that the most ancient name of Thrace is Aria.
    An excerpt from the robot of Stephen of Byzantine, which explains that the most ancient name of Thrace is Aria.
    Stephen of Byzantine also testifies that Thrace bore the names Perke and Aria. Perke is akin to the epithet of Heros - Perkon. Consent or not that the Thracian god of thunder Perkun (Perkos) in Bulgarian corresponds to Perko, and in "Slavianska Mythology" Perkun already meets Perkun. ........? !!!
  31. dibaxsan
    dibaxsan 14 July 2021 10: 41
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    The fact is that the anthropological characteristics of the so-called "ancient Slavs" and the Thracians are strikingly identical. An indisputable fact is that the ancient Balgari became the basis of related languages ​​and cultural peoples. The truth is not difficult, but in the past a certain group of people deliberately distorted concepts and imposed dogmas. Today we have access to information, we can verify it, and this leads to the destruction of dogma. Recent genetic studies were of great help, which showed that a significant part of the modern Bulgarians carry the blood of the population that inhabited the lands of modern Bulgaria and the Balkan Peninsula even in the Stone Age. Modern Y DNA analysis confirms that the Bulgarians are descendants of the indigenous population that inhabited the Balkans from 13 up to 000 years ago. Their homeland is named in the modern territory, Danube Bulgaria in the Balkans https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9/
    Another proof of the ancient Balkan roots of the Bulgarians comes from the Mycenaean documents of the Bronze Age - PY Cn328, PY An 209, KN Dd 1193, 1197 Ea 302 lxxxi, 473 Rq 61 xcvii, 468 Xm11 lii and others, found in Pylos, Knossos and other places ... Names such as Ermi, Vokil and Dulo are found on the tiles on katorai, and these are the names of three old Bulgarian ruling families. In the Mycenaean documents of the Bronze Age there are also ancient variants of ancient Bulgarian names such as Toktu-Tokt, Krum, Vinay-Vinekh, Kubir-Kuber , Karmesiy-Kormesiy, Sever-Sevar, Omer-Umar. The ancient variants of the seven names of the Bulgarian rulers were registered here in the Balkans, about a millennium before the appearance of such Greek names as Aristides, Miltiades and others. John Chodik himself reluctantly admitted that typical Greek names with the suffixes -ides are completely absent in the Mycenaean documents, - ades .....
    The so-called and recently popular in Russian media "Slavic" gene R1a1 appeared on the Bulgarian territory not only during the time of Justinian the Great - 527, but several millennia earlier.
    Scientists from the University of Michigan found out and explained that R1a1 carriers inhabited the Balkans 13-500 years ago, and in Russia they appeared about seven millennia later. It was also discovered that R11a500 is a typical marker of the ancient Aryans, and let's not forget that the oldest name for Trakia / Thrace is Aria. More on that later. The Thracians inhabiting the Southern Balkans left a huge number of their toponyms and hydronyms, and the fact that these ancient names of cities and rivers can be explained in Bulgarian is another confirmation that the Bulgarians and the Thracians are two names for the same people. ...
    Numerous independent DNA tests for the Bulgarian genotype prove that Bulgarians have Thracian genes - 49% of Thracian blood, according to a study by the Swiss Institute IGENEA. All percentages and data related to DNA genealogy and the origin of European peoples are the official results of the Pan-European Root Removal Study conducted by the world's leading genetic research institute IGENEA in Zurich, Switzerland and published in more than 500 scientific articles and their publications in leading international scientific journals
    “For us the indigenous population of the Bulgarian lands are Thracians, and in this sense we accept them as proto-Bulgarians, you (Bulgarians) are 49 percent Thracians as a people” - Director of the Swiss Institute of Genetics “Igenia”, Zurich Amanda Felber 27.05.2009. (For comparison of the Thracian gene, genetic material was taken from the skeletons of 7 Thracian tombs in different parts of Bulgaria. So far, 50 Thracian tombs have been discovered on the territory of Bulgaria! The genetic material of these samples coincides on average 000% on the genetic material of 45 modern ethnic Bulgarians were given a voluntary trial.)
    The Secretary General of the World Tourism Organization at the United Nations (UN), Taleb Rifay, on September 17.09.2018, XNUMX, officially stated that the Thracian Civilization is Bulgarian, that its "rights" cannot be disputed by any other country.
    "Learn, gentlemen, learn, and you will learn many, many more about Bulgars, for they WERE EVERYWHERE" - Academician Nikolay.Ya.Marr
  32. dibaxsan
    dibaxsan 14 July 2021 10: 42
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    Attention! There is a difference between the real past and the artistic world of such works as "The Lord of the Rings" and "History Textbook for Grade 10" ....
    Since this Sklavini tribe is best known and recorded by the Romans and Greeks, it was filled with horror and fear, it crawls as a gathering for all peoples who speak kindred, close languages. Getti-Slavs beat the strongest from their relatives, causing the most serious "problems "Rome and Greece therefore became both the most famous and mentioned in the ancient sources. The Arabs also knew the power of the ancient Getti. The poet Al Akhtal used the name of the Slavs as a metaphor for danger (Kurta, The Making of Slavs p. 111). Some of the old Slavs were even recruited as mercenaries in the Roman army because of their qualities of good warriors (Kurt, The Making of Slavs p. 349). In three books, the Egyptian chronicler Theophylact Simokata explains that the Slavs are the new name of the Getae. their language is related to Venetian, over time the Veneti began to be called Slavs, and their language - Slavic. Of course, not only the popularity of the name Sklavini-Slaviani among the Romans and Greeks is the reason for its imposition. Numerous, but weak Veneti (Slovenia, Slovakia, Poland, Czech Republic, Russia) called themselves Slavs, too, and for the fact that they themselves had horror, old and respect from the enemies.
    Magnus Felix Enodius, 486 Bishop in Pavia (Italy): “Bulgarians are people who have everything they want. They believe the world is open to them. They never doubt their victory. These are the people who are admired by the weight of the world. "
    Troparch of Byzantine, 999: "The Bulgarians were the most just of all nations, and from all over the world they worshiped most of these virtues, and they themselves gained great glory, and cities and peoples joined them voluntarily."
    Anastasiy Bibliotekar: “The Bulgarians united their lands in accordance with their kinship law” (This is because the Bulgarians are the indigenous peoples of the Balkans, Eastern Europe and the Volga-Urals and created the first state of Idel, 17 years ago). Historians, including Arabic, also write that at that time the world language of diplomacy was Bulgarian (Old Bulgarian)
    Some modernists give the word "slavian" as "glorious people", those who spread words, knowledge, culture, skills, what they actually eat. Bulgarians create and disseminate the alphabet Boharitsa (Cyrillic), which is used today not only by Bulgarians , but also Serbs, Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians and others. Boharitsa is the most ancient occult alphabet on earth, belonging to the most ancient occult people - the Bulgarians. Before Constantine and Methodius replaced X and K with G, the Bulgarian states were called Bohara, Balkhara, Balkh , Bolk.
    The Boharian / Bulgarian alphabet is the alphabet of the Copts, which are a Boharian tribe. To this day, they live in Egypt and speak the ancient Boharian / Bulgarian, which is understandable to every Bolgar.
    “Bulgaria is a blessed country! It is no coincidence that the Forces sent me here. .... The Bulgarian letter is one of the oldest on earth ... Oh, how ancient Bulgaria is! She gave a lot to the world, but the world will give her too ... "Bulgarian prophetess Vangelia Gushcherova-Baba Vanga
    ".... Because from here went to Russia and faith, and the book, and the patriarch. We sent all God's deeds to her." Reverend Stoina (Spiritual teacher Vanga)
    “Ukrainians, as well as Belarusians and Russians, all remember that our writing, culture and Orthodox Christian faith come from Bulgaria, and I want to recall the fact that the first two Ukrainian patriarchs are ethnic Bulgarians - Grigory Tsamblak and Cyprian.” Vyacheslav Pomavsky - Ambassador of Ukraine to Bulgaria.
    Bulgarian phenomenon Slava Servyukova (Prophetess Baba Vanga for Slava Sevryukov: “What she said, drew or drew, will come true!”)
    “The psychic charge of the Bulgarians is invaluable! The country will overcome the crisis and strengthen itself. Future spiritual leaders will be born of our God-chosen people. This is no coincidence - the written language of the Slavic tribe appeared through us more than a thousand years ago. We will have to expand this culture. It is karmically meant. "
    "Remember - great Wisdom will go from Bulgaria on earth. In front of the world will be amazed to learn what our tribe has given to Humanity. This honor is high. As for the Slavs, the future belongs to them."
    "Bulgaria must give humanity what it has not been able to do over the centuries in the past. The mission of the people is to spiritually educate and give wings to the Slavic ethnos scattered around the world."
    The only person who knew 184 languages ​​in the world was Academician Nikolai Yakovlevich Mar (1864-1934). Academician Mar has scientifically proved that all the main languages ​​of the planet come from the ancient Bulgarian language.

    “The miracle is explained not only by the genius of Cyril and Methodius, to create an alphabet, spelling (spelling), but also on the basis of Bulgarian - a sublime, subtle literary language capable of expressing the most complex ideas. The miracle is mainly due to the fact that the Bulgarian people were able to perceive it. And the ability to perceive the health of the Bulgarian people, because Bulgaria has long been a territory of great cultures ... "Russian Academician Dmitry Likhachov," Development of Russian literature in the 1937th-XNUMXth centuries ", Leningrad XNUMX
    Prof. Norman Davis, England: “Bulgarians are the core of European civilization”.
    French Presidents for Bulgarians:
    Charles de Gaulle 1962: "The Bulgarian state is a swing of the European culture and civilizations"
    Francois Mitterrand: "The Bulgarian people are one of the creators of the Civilizations of our planet."
    Italian President Carlo Ciampi speaking at the opening ceremony of the 2006 Winter Olympics. in Turin: “Bulgarians are one of the first creators of our Civilization”.
  33. dibaxsan
    dibaxsan 14 July 2021 10: 45
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    If scientists in the blisk past were objective and did not obey and didn’t get a patch from the state, they would explain to the most important and at the same time most unknown to most people the fact that the ancient Slavs were not the ancestors of Russians, Poles, Czechs, Slovenes and others. , and de facto are Getae - Thracian people. However, they lived mainly in the Balkans. The traditional Getae lands are Northern Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, southern Ukraine and southern Russia. Of course, there were Getae in the lands of Slovakia and even Germany, because there Strabo puts their western border - in the Hercynian Forest - Strab.VII.3.1. The Getae are described in the writings of the father of history Herodotus as the most brave and just of the Thracians. Describing the lands of the Thracian Getae tribe, Strabo mentions that the territory of this people began in the Hercynian forest - the Black Forest. There it is only a narrow strip along the Danube, expanding towards the territory of Tiraget. “The land of the Getae, which, though narrow at first, stretching as it does along the Ister on its southern side and on the opposite side along the mountain-side of the Hercynian Forest (for the land of the Getae also embraces a part of the mountains), afterwards broadens out towards the north as far as the Tyregetae. " 

    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7C*.html
    The Tiragetes inhabited the lands along the Tiras River - the old name of the Dniester. According to Strabo, the Getae owned a long strip of land - from Germany to today's Ukraine. About the same territory of Jordan, the Slavs are "located": from Lake Murza (Osijek, Croatia) to the Dniester. “The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula”. 
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html#geograph
    The fact that the ancient Slavs and the Getae were one and the same people, we learn from T. Simokata, who wrote - “The Getae, also called Sklavi (Sclavi), cross the borders of Thrace ... Sklavins or Getae, because they were so called in ancient times ".". The expression in ancient times is important, it shows that the Sklavini (Slavs) are not a new people. This is evidenced by their tribal names. One of the most famous Slavic ethnonyms Yeti in Berzitite, Sagudatite and Ezerite. These people were mentioned by Pliny Staryi in the Balkans in the first century under the names brizei, sgaugdi and ozeriati (Historia Naturalis, IV.xi.40, III.xxv.148). Contemporary historians stubbornly ignore this important fact.
    According to Strabo, "The Getae belong to the same clan as the Mizi - another separate Thracian people who in the early Middle Ages became the nameyvat Bulgarians."
    In fact, it was directly said by the monk Fulco: “ul Vulgariorum, quos voitant Thracas, ut habent foundationa Priorum”.
    Not only from the testimonies from Simokat and Pliny, we understand that the ancient Slavs are the local Thracian people. Pseudo-Maurice writes about the old Slavs that after the death of her husband, a woman committed ritual suicide (F. Curta, The Making the Slavs, Cambridge University Press, 2007, p.51). About a thousand years ago, Herodotus mentioned the same custom of the voluntary death of a Thracian woman - History, IV.5. This special rite is unknown to the Venetians (Slovenia, Slovaks, Poles, Czech Republics, Russians) described by Claudius Ptolemy in his "Geography". We see that although they are relatives of the old Slavs, the Veneti are not identical with him. Likewise, Vikings are related to today's Austrians, but this does not give us the right to call the old Austrians Vikings. Kinship and identity are two different things that should not be confused !!!
    The English researcher Arnold Toynbe writes in his 12-volume edition of the history of nations that “... There were 21 civilizations in the Ancient World .. One of them is Bulgarian. It expanded its borders thanks to its HIGH CULTURAL INFLUENCE. Ikhnya Territory from Belgrade to Crimea and from the Carpathians to the White Sea, named in antiquity as Thracian.
    The world famous Russian Academician Dmitry Likhachov in his book "Development of Russian Literature in the 1937th-37th centuries", Leningrad XNUMX, XNUMX, notes: "...... The Bulgarian state of the Spirit stretches from the Baltic Sea to the Pacific Ocean, and from the Arctic Ocean to the Indian Ocean ".
    According to the information of St. Jerome, D. Khomatian and others, we understand that the new name of the Thracian tribe Mizi is Bulgarians. On its map, about 380 was created. in. St. Jerome calls the heti of the land Mesia hec et Vulgaria - Mizia, as well as Bulgaria.


    D. Khomatian not only calls the Bulgarians the Mizi-Thracian people, but also connects them with specific events from the past: “This great father of ours in Bulgaria was from the European Mizi family, whom the people also know as Bulgarians. In ancient times they were expelled by the military forces of Alexander from Olympus near Bruce to the Northern Ocean and the Dead Sea, and after a long time they crossed the Danube with a terrible army and captured all the neighboring regions: Pannonia and Dalmatia, Thrace and Illyricum and most of Macedonia and Thessaly. "
    Ie Sklavini-Getas and Mizi-Bulgarians belong to the same ethnic group.
  34. dibaxsan
    dibaxsan 14 July 2021 10: 46
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    It is human to make mistakes, it has been understood since ancient times. We base our beliefs and ideas on certain information. The more data we have, the more solid our position is. Sometimes it seems to us that we understand everything, are confident in the idea and ardently defend it. This is generally a positive point. Protecting certain views is a sign of chrobrost.However, it may turn out that due to gaps in our knowledge, we unconsciously fight against people who should be respected and loved, which even turn out to be our relatives.
    The name "Slavs / i" is misunderstood and confused by the majority of people. Most people have no idea what its true meaning is and what is its origin and the defect of the right speeches. For some reason, many people associate the term "Slav" with Russia and its imperial ambitions. It is no coincidence that people there are so strongly "convinced" of their belonging to this nationality. The fashion for creating nations came from Western Europe. It differs in addition to serfdom and with a striking difference that there states and real peoples do not coincide. State "nations" were created there in our time (and with artificial literary languages). The difference between “nation” and “people” is that “nation” is an artificial Western concept that does not mean people. It doesn’t need a lot of explanation, it doesn’t need complex terms and definitions that are not clear to anyone. The truth is simple, but it is not convenient for a certain group of people, state regimes, ideologies, and therefore it is hidden and remade as they please. The idea of ​​"nation" has become convenient for political movements in other parts of the world. In the 18th century. She settled in Russia and found her second home there and finally becomes a national idea to this day.
    Unfortunately, history after the 19th century is written by the forces of the moment, from politics and for the interests of politics and the state. We live in the age of technology, we just have to have a desire to explore and seek. Three things cannot be hidden: the Sun, the Stars and the Truth. Valuable sources are censored, and information from ancient written records is hidden.
    Until the 18th century not a single East European knew and defines himself that he is a Slav. Before Peter I and Catherine II, the Russians had no idea. In fact, no one really explains what the word "ancient Slav" means and for whom it was used. However, let's leave aside passions and beliefs and take a sober look at the facts. For the first time the word "Slavs" - in the sense of ethnicity, entered the political crawl in 1593 - until then "slavi" was actually "sclavi" - in ancient Byzantine sources. There are many misconceptions about the name sclavi. It is speculated that sclavus was the Latin word for slave, which was used to refer to various peoples. This is a very naive and erroneous statement based on personal opinion rather than evidence. In Latin, there is no etymology for sclavus, which means that sclavus is not of Latin origin. The real Latin words for a slave are famulus, verna and servus. Sklavus is an ethnonym that has become a symbol of slavery, because the Romans fought with the independent Thracians and made the prisoners shy. This is a traditional practice of the Eternal City. The Byzantine churchmen-chroniclers used the nickname SKLAVI in the sense of “slaves” or “wicked” - the so-called non-zealous of the official Christian faith - the Ariani. We are talking about the “semi-Arians” - as they call the Bulgarian Church in Constantinople and Rome ...
    Currently, "Slavs" are people who speak Slavic languages, about 300 mil. human. However, concepts from linguistics should not be confused with the name of an ancient people. Russians are not Slavs. No, there is no typographical error, the Russians are not Slavs in the sense in which this word was used by Jordan, Procopius, Marcellinus, Simokata and other ancient authors. Ukrainians are not Slavs either. Slovenes, Slovaks, Czechs and others cannot be called Slavs, judging by the criteria of the old authors who used this term in the early Middle Ages. Here, in the countries about the topic, the question arises - Who then are the Russians, Ukrainians, Slovenes? For people familiar with ancient historical sources, the answer is extremely clear. Russians are the descendants of awake, neurite, Scythian farmers. Ukrainians are old agatirsi / s and anti, and Slovenes, Slovaks, Czechs, Poles, Wends - Vendites, Veneti, Vindelikite, Ryugiite, Subenite, Stavanite described by Pliny, Tacitus, Caesar and Strabo. Today everything is thrown into a heap, a disorderly mixture of ancient Slavs, Veneti and anti is produced. However, these are different people living in different lands and with different histories. In ancient times, a clear distinction was made between Slavs, Veneti and anti. Unfortunately, most people don't know this. It is unknown and very important detail that the lands of Slovenia, Slovakia, Poland, Czech Republic, Russia were named Venetia, terra Venetorum, Windisch Mark, Venaya ... i.e. the land inhabited by the Veneti. The ancestors of the Poles and Russians also bore the name of the Veneti. Claudius Ptolemy localized the Gulf of Venice on the lands of Poland, as well as the large Venetian peoples. Dosikhpor The Finns call Russia with the name of Venai, and the Russians the Venelainen-Venetian people. Unfortunately, very young people know about these important details!
    But who, then, are the "ancient Slavs" (not a simple Slavian, but the ancient ones!)? To answer these questions, we must consider the work of a number of ancient authors, such as Strabo, Jordan and others.
    To understand how the name "Slavs" originated, we can look, for example, at the history of the name "Germans". Cornelius Tacitus explains that originally the name Germani was valid only for one tribe - the Tungri, and only after a while the name Germani became a designation for all people speaking a language similar to the Tungri language - “The name Germany, on the other hand, they say is modern and newly introduced, from the fact that the tribes which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now called Tungrians, were then called Germans. Thus what was the name of a tribe, and not of a race, gradually prevailed, till all called themselves by this self-invented name of Germans, which the conquerors had first employed to inspire terror “.  
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html
    Today, Swedes are considered Germans in a linguistic and cultural context. However, this does not mean that Gaius Julius Caesar fought the Vikings (ancestors of the Swedes). The concepts of linguistics should not be confused with the names of historical peoples!
    However, the point is not that the name Slavs is the primary name of the Slavic race, from which the names of other Slavic tribes eventually separated. The name "Slavs" is a partial name. Prior to this, there were other Slavic names, such as Bulgarians, anti, Veneti, Akatsiri, etc. It appears after the name of the Bulgarians and instead of the name of the Bulgarians. The Bulgarians and the "ancient" Slavs are one and the same people, but they are named after the name of the Bulgarians. differently.
    “The Bulgarians were the people who to the greatest extent contributed to the organization and formation of civilization throughout Eastern Europe. The Proto-Bulgarians organized the Bulgarian-Slavic tribes into one nation, where the Bulgarian spirit and culture remained the primacy of eternal times. ”Professor Geza Feher, a Byzantologist, also studied the history of the ancient Bulgarians and Magyars, as well as the historical ties between them.