Military Review

Slavs and the beginning of the Great Migration

93

Early Slavs and Goths


Goths, or more precisely, the Gothic tribes, in the I – II century. n er went from the area of ​​Scandza (Scandinavia) to Eastern Europe, according to Jordan, the only source on these events.




They arrived in Scythia, in the Oium region, the lands about which “they say that the terrain is closed, surrounded by swamps and deep waters”. The question arises, what is this Oyuma? Some researchers believe that if it is located in the "Scythia", it means that this is the steppes of the Black Sea. Others believe that “Scythia” is, roughly speaking, the whole of Eastern Europe, and its border river, according to the Jordan, which relied on the ancient tradition, is Vistula or Wisla. From where the campaign began and ready. The Goths enter the region on the Scythian border - on the Vistula or Vistula River. “Scythia” is not the steppes of the Black Sea region, but the designation of Eastern Europe. They fall into the territory bounded by the Vistula River and “swamps and whirlpools”, which corresponds to the Polish Pomerania region: Narevsky swamps are located in the north, Pinskie (Belarus) in the east, and Lyubelshchyna (Poland) in the west. Gothic Aujom (Oium) is a land surrounded by water, watery terrain.

Jordan writes that the Goths fought here and conquered some people slept [spali], but according to archeology, it was the early Slavs who lived in this territory. The word "slept" is steadily associated with the "giant." And Procopius of Caesarea wrote that initially the Slavs were called "disputes", explaining that they are strongly scattered on the ground. Researchers labor Jordan suggest that we are talking about the same people - the Slavs.

It is interesting that the Lithuanians called their southern neighbors (Belarusians) Guts (gudas) or ... Goths. It is possible to understand this name, given the fact that the ancestors historical Lithuania was the southern neighbors, under the rule of the Goths, who conquered the territory of Mazovia, Podlasia (the area of ​​the modern city of Bialystok) and Volyn. This happened in the second half of the XNUMXnd century A.D. e.

The Goths seized land on the Vistula, which led to an outflow of part of the local population to the south. It should be noted that this territory (Przeworsk archeological culture) was inhabited by Slavs with the presence of the German element.

The Goths themselves did not linger here, but in small groups at first they also moved south, drawing into their movement other tribes that were on their way.

Slavs and the beginning of the Great Migration

Przeworskaya culture and migration directions are ready for the Black Sea. Source: Sedov V. V. Slavyane. Old Russian people. M., 2005


According to archeology, this migration was as follows. The Visigoths were part of the first wave, they occupied the territory in the south along the right of the Dniester (Trul) - the lands of the Goths, the Dacians, at the end of the 2nd century, hence, perhaps, the history of Jordan was named the History of the Goths. Already at the beginning of the III century, the warlike Goths appear in the Lower Danube region, and in 242 they already howl on the side of the Romans against the Sassanian Iran.

Ostrogoths followed them. Part joined the Visigoths, while others settled on the route, large masses were on the lower reaches of the Dnieper, probably, up to the Sea of ​​Azov.

Chernyakhovskaya archaeological culture


At this time, as indicated by archaeological sources, Chernyakhov archeological culture is formed in Eastern Europe (in the village of Chernyakhov in the Middle Dnieper region).
“Within the maximum limits, the culture covers a vast territory - from the Seversky Donets in the north-east to the Danube in the south-west from the headwaters of the Bug and the tributaries of the Pripyat in the north-west to the lower Dnieper in the south-east. The most saturated with monuments of the region are the Middle Dnieper, the upper and middle reaches of the Southern Bug, the Dniester and the Prut interfluve, the Northern Black Sea region, Nadporoje. Monuments on the left bank of the Dnieper, as well as in the steppe strip separating the Middle Dnieper and the Northern Black Sea region are relatively rare. ”


Who participated in the formation of this culture?

There are different, sometimes diametrically opposite opinions on this issue.

First, it is a theory suggesting that this culture belongs to the ancestors of the Slavs who lived here.

Second, a number of researchers point to the key role of the German element.

The first rests on the problem of the previous one, in the region of the Middle Dnieper, Seedset, Pripyat - Zarubinets culture. Again, some historians consider it early Slavic, close to Przeworsk culture, others associate it with the Balts. There is an opinion that the speakers of this culture in the language plan occupied an intermediate position between the Slavs and the Western Balts.


Spearheads Burial Chaplin. Zarubintsy archaeological culture. SHM. Moscow. Russia. Photo author


On the other hand, regardless of ethnicity, some believe that it has become an integral part of the emerging Chernyakhov culture, others point to a time lag of a hundred years between the disappearance of the first carriers and the appearance of the second culture carriers.

The southern range of steppes and forest-steppe was occupied by Sarmatian and late Scythian tribes.


Sarmat. II – III centuries. GE. St. Petersburg. Russia. Photo author


Other researchers believe that the Chernyakhov culture is formed on the basis of the Sarmatian substrate, through its assimilation by the Slavs, with the participation of the Balts and the Germans in the formation of this culture.

The advancement of the Slavs into the region (Przeworsk culture) together or simultaneously with the Germanic tribes (Velbar culture) created the prerequisites for its formation.

Many researchers do not see the genetic connection between the Chernyakhov culture and the genesis of the Eastern Slavs.

For those interested in the details of this problem, I recommend the literature cited at the end of the article.

The area of ​​this culture is huge, different ethnic elements prevailed in various parts, but there is no need to talk about the complete predominance of the German element in this process throughout the territory. However, it should be noted that this issue is open because of the specifics of the sources (archeological data). If we believe the written sources that have come down to us, then the tribes of the Germans, Slavs and Sarmatians lived separately and compactly. What is below.

Thus, Sarmatians, Slavs, Germans, Balts and, on the periphery, even Thracians participated in the formation of the Chernyakhov culture.

The masses of the Germans and Slavs advancing here assimilate the autochthonous population. About the movement here is ready to write Jordan. This process is especially intensive in the middle and lower Dnieper region, where the once militant nomadic Sarmatian-Iranian groups are being absorbed by the newcomers.

At one time, the emergence of riders of Sarmatians in Eastern Europe and on the borders of Rome made significant changes in the military affairs of the empire. Divisions of riders of spearmen in scaled armor were created. Riders began to use two-handed spears (contas), swords with a ring, a loop for a sword belt with a sheath, a composite helmet appeared in the army that would become dominant in Europe for at least six centuries. From the Sarmatians, the Roman army received a dragon banner. Obviously, they had an impact on the military affairs of the sedentary forest population of the south-east of Eastern Europe.

Sarmatians lived on this territory in the forest-steppe part of Eastern Europe from the 1st – 2nd centuries. What are the causes of assimilation?

Sarmatians were in the process of settling to the ground, although the military nomadic skills persist; most likely, the Sarmatian and Late Scythian population was few in comparison with the Slavs, as Jordan wrote:
“... from the source of the Vistula River on the vast spaces inhabited by a large tribe of Veneti. Although now their names vary with different genera and habitats, they are mostly still called Slavs and Antes. ”


Archaeologists and philologists emphasize that the Slavs are absorbing the Iranian component only within the framework of the Chernyakhov archeological culture. Researchers note that it was during this period that intensive contacts of the Slavic population with the carriers of the Iranian component (Sarmatians and Alans) took place, but contacts with the Sarmatians whom Tacitus mentioned started earlier.

At the same time, the ethnonym Croat appeared, comparable to Sarmatian. This word is traditionally erected to the Iranian lexeme xryvat with the meaning “keep watch”, “guardian of cattle”. The word "Serb", "North", some researchers refer to Iranian borrowing, as well as the term "Rus", which refers to the concepts: light (Ossetian), radiance (Persian).

In this era, deities were borrowed from the pantheron of the Eastern Slavs, Horse and Simargl, as well as the Ukrainian Wii, which goes back to the Iranian god of war, wind, revenge and death.

Slavs recognize the words "power, tribute". They are introduced to the tactics and armament of the steppe warriors, the "control system" of nomadic tribes, which contributed to the accumulation of military skills by Slavic tribes and clans.


Parts of protective equipment of Sarmatians. II – III centuries. GE. St. Petersburg. Russia. Photo author


In parallel with the development of the Chernyakhov archeological culture, there is a separate process of the formation of the Slavic community on its southern border (from the middle reaches of the Dnieper, between the Dnieper and Dniester rivers).

So, Chernyakhov culture was one (conditionally one) in material terms, but it belonged to speakers of different language groups.

"State" of Germanarich


The Goths (Ostrogoths), who settled on the lands along the middle and lower reaches of the Dnieper, on its right bank, lived as separate tribes and did not attempt to unite. But at this time a new threat appeared in the east. Despite the fact that ancient historians tell of a sudden invasion of nomads into the territory of Eastern Europe, it is obvious that this attack was preceded by reports from Alans and other Iranian-speaking ethnic groups who fled from the Huns. It was under the influence of these external factors that the process of uniting the tribes of this region began with the Gothic king Germanariche or Ermanariche.

Jordan, the author of the 6th century, in order to praise the royal gothic family of Amals, to which Germanarich belonged, “expanded” the number of tribes he conquered, possibly on the basis of some Roman “Dorozhnik”. It is possible that the listed peoples and tribes entered the sphere of influence ready at different stages of their advancement from north to south, but to speak about the “state of Germanarich” from the Baltic to the Black Sea and from the Carpathians to the Sea of ​​Azov is not at all necessary.

Germanarikh, having crushed the tribal alliance of his serious rivals, the Erules or Heruls, who, according to Jordan, lived near the Sea of ​​Azov (Meotids), began a struggle with the Slavs. As our source writes:
"... although they were worthy of contempt because [of their weakness] weaponsThey were, however, powerful due to their multiplicity and tried to resist at first. ”


This struggle was connected with the formation of the first political union among the Slavs, which went down in history as the “Antov state”. Jordan writes that Germanarich began a war against the Wends. So, they were defeated and entered into the "union" of Germanarich. ["Getica" 119].

It is interesting that, on the one hand, we see a single archaeological Chernyakhov culture that unites all inhabitants of early public education, on the other hand, the presence of different ethnic components indicates its extreme instability militarily.

Combining this, as you can imagine, was quite tense. In the course of it, an episode occurred when Germanaric executed his wife, Sunilda. from the Rosomonov tribe, in retaliation, her brothers seriously wounded the king. ["Getica" 129]. Rosomony is a tribe about which one can speak only hypothetically, there is not any reliable news about him. Perhaps it was a direct member of the "state of Germanarich."

In such difficult conditions for the Gothic tribal union, the Huns launched an invasion of the territory of the “state of Germanaric”.


Huns in Europe. V century Fig. Angus McBride Ed. "Osprey"


Ostgoths, most likely not supported by other tribes and associations from the “Germanarich State,” were defeated. All tribes, including the Slavs who lived in this part of Eastern Europe, fell into submission to the Huns. The population of Chernyakhov culture was subjected to destruction. Here is what Ammianus Marcellinus writes:
“And now the Huns, having passed through the lands of the Alans, who border on the Grettuns and are usually called Tanaits, made a terrible extermination and devastation for them, and they made an alliance with the survivors and annexed them to themselves. With their assistance, they boldly broke through a sudden attack into the vast and fertile lands of Ermenrich, a very militant king, whom neighboring nations feared because of his many and varied military exploits. Struck by the force of this sudden storm, Ermenrich for a long time tried to give them a decisive rebuff and fight them off; but as the rumor increasingly intensified the horror of the advancing disasters, he put an end to the fear of the great dangers of voluntary death. "



Rider. V century Bryansk. SHM. Moscow. Russia. Photo author


Slavs: the first tribal alliance



When the bulk of the Huns moved to the territory of Central and Western Europe, drawing into this stream and the local population, probably their power in the forest-steppes of Eastern Europe somewhat weakened, they decided to use the Ostrogoths led by Vitimira (Ammian Marcellin) or Vinitaria (Jordan) from the genus Amal [Vinithario tamen Amalo]. These events occur at the end of IV. or the very beginning of V c.

Remaining under the Huns, he decided to restore power ready over the Slavs, called the Antes, and perhaps return the hegemony ready in the Black Sea region. But at the initial stage was defeated.

Thus, the Slavic tribes and groups begin to unite into a single tribal union. The territory inhabited by the Ants in the period under review is a forest-steppe territory from the Dniester to the Dnieper, and mass concentration was observed on the right bank of the Dnieper.

Anty [Greek Ἅνται-, Antae] - the etymology of the term is controversial, one of the variants from the other Indian anta- end, edge, by analogy with the “Ukraine” - margin, it is possible that the name arose during the period of contact with the Sarmatians. There is an opinion that this is the self-name of the Alanian or Sarmatian-Scythian tribes, hence, for example, the famous Roxallan tribe. Whether the Slavs of these regions called themselves by that name was a big question, the Germans continued to call them Venetians, as the name Vinitarii testifies to.

Having achieved victory, Vinitarius crucified the king of the ants of God, his sons and seventy elders, “in order to intimidate, so that the corpses of the crucified double the fear of the conquered” [“Getica“ 247].

Historians have different views on these events, described in the legend, which apparently reached the Jordan in the form of an oral tale. The author clearly indicated the war is ready with the Antes-Veneti (Slavs), therefore the hypothesis of collisions with the Antes-Alans is hardly appropriate.

Ants act here as a union of the tribes, which was under the supreme protection of the first ready, and then the Huns, gradually gaining strength. Moreover, the legend indicates the system of power of the Slavs, where there are elders and leader of the union, God of God.

His name originates in the Slavic language environment, and is associated with the term "leader" (vozh / god).

While the name of Vinitaria itself suggests that this is not a proper name, although it occurs later in the Early Middle Ages, but the name of the winner of the Slavs-Wends: Vinithariy - the Gothic language - Vinithaharjis - the winner of the Veneti, and his name Vitimir.

The attempt of Vitimir or Vinitar to shed the power of the Huns and reclaim the hegemony in Eastern Europe was not crowned with success. Ammianus Marcellinus wrote that he fought with the Alans, hiring some Hunnic tribe against them. But he was killed in a battle on the Arak River, presumably the Dnieper, the Huns regained power over all the Black Sea tribes, including the Ants.

There is a difficult struggle of various tribal unions for hegemony in the steppes and forest-steppes of Eastern Europe.

Archaeological sources show that the Dniester-Dnieper interfluve continues to be inhabited by Slavs-Antes, a new Penkovsky archaeological culture appears and begins to form, much inferior to Chernyakhovskaya.

Its carriers cover not only the above described territory, but expand their range to the east, up to the Volga region, and to the west - to the Danube. A distinctive feature of this culture was the wearing by women of one finger brooch, brooches, produced locally and created under the influence of the Germanic (Gothic) finger brooches, but with characteristic features. These fibulae were not characteristic of the whole Slavic world, but belonged only to the ants.

The period of great migration or movement to the south of the Slavs began.

To be continued ...

Sources and literature:
Ammianus Marcellinus Story. Per. Yu. V. Kulakovsky and A. I. Sonny. Intro. article L. Yu. Lukomsky. SPb., 2000.
Jordan. On the origin and act of the Geth. Translation E. Ch. Skrzhinskoy. SPb., 1997.
Niederle L. Slavic Antiquities, M., 2013.
Rybakov B. A. Paganism of ancient Russia. M., 1988.
Sedov V.V. Slavs. Old Russian people. Historical and archaeological research. M., 2005.
Slavs and their neighbors. At the end of I millennium BC. er - the first half of I millennium n. er Edited by B. A. Rybakov. M., 1993.
Sedov V.V. The Origin and Early History of the Slavs M., 1979.
Vernadsky G.V. Ancient Rus. Tver, Moscow, 1996.
Herwig Wolfram. Goths. From the beginnings to the middle of the VI century. Translated from German by B. Milovidov, M. Schukin. SPb., 2003.
Shmidt L. Geschichte der deutschen.Stämme bis zum Ausgang der Völkerwanderung. Die Ostegermanen. München. 1934.
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Articles from this series:
The origin of the Slavs
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  1. siberalt
    siberalt 27 July 2019 05: 27
    -1
    Again, they are trying to smuggle some Western nonsense about the origin of the Slavs. Scythian mounds have been excavated in Altai for half a century, and in Eastern Siberia, Greek mirrors are found in excavations. Then what does Germany have to do with it, which, as a state, two hundred years ago did not exist at all? There are also scientific studies of famous scientists, geneticists, linguists, chronologists. There is none, again we publish Western lists translated into Russian. winked
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 27 July 2019 05: 50
      +8
      Your comment on the text of the article has no relation whatsoever
      1. siberalt
        siberalt 27 July 2019 06: 27
        0
        Even as it has. To consider the history of Russian civilization on the example of one "collective farm" is somehow uncommon. Because this question is closed by the world "politburo". Isn't that why they took 5 thousand years of our history together with the calendar from us? And now we are studying the history of Slavs under a pillar with a light bulb. The article is narrow-profile and concerns the Black Sea region. Although Slavism arose much earlier and not in this place, but much, much further east. This was then split into two antipode arms.
        1. Kalkan
          Kalkan 27 July 2019 08: 07
          +2
          only this article is not about the appearance of the Slavs! And not about the Slavs at all, but also about their role in the process of resettlement of peoples!
        2. Hantengri
          Hantengri 27 July 2019 12: 02
          +3
          Quote: siberalt
          Not for that, have 5 been taken away from us thousands of years of our history along with the calendar?

          So enlighten us orphans and duped by the "world politburo"! Provide us with what thread is ancient: a document with this calendar (preferably five thousand years old laughing ) Why not shake the air!
        3. Paranoid50
          Paranoid50 28 July 2019 12: 28
          0
          Quote: siberalt
          To consider the history of Russian civilization on the example of one "collective farm" is somehow noncomilfo.

          Oh, cool ... Prosecutorial verification of historical facts. fellow laughing
    2. Klim717
      Klim717 27 July 2019 09: 31
      +3
      Ren-Tv revised, my dear ?!
  2. vomag
    vomag 27 July 2019 06: 22
    +1
    Hahaha Gunas are Jews of the 10 tribes of Israel ... glory is just one of the tribes that became part of the Hunnic Union, which later became Slavs! There is such a science MEDIEVISTIK .... your past is hidden from you by all truths and not truths ... here are the Slavs come from alpha centaurs and the story begins in the 9-10th century! although for ALL your neighbors it goes continuously almost from the 5th century BC
    1. siberalt
      siberalt 27 July 2019 06: 52
      0
      Haha. Consider two parallels. There was not a single show of Solovyov, where he did not recall that he was a Jew (this is the attitude of his masters). Second. Why does everyone spread rot about our modern great, world-renowned scientists such as Chudinov, Fomenko, Kolesov, Dragunkin. The answer suggests itself. The ideology of the Jews as the first people who brought "great reason" for all mankind should be the fundamental principle of the entire history of mankind. And those who try to object are given the most severe anathema. Is it not so, gentlemen who object, who are genetically the same Arabs? And just like the Western and Eastern Slavs "love" each other.hi
      1. knn54
        knn54 27 July 2019 09: 35
        +2
        Oleg, regarding the Jews, no one can really say who the children of Adam were married to. And the same genetic research suggests that they are a relatively young ethnic group. This is evidenced by the predominance of 3-4 blood groups.
        And the Arabs are the result of a mixture of Semites and Bedouin natives.
        And the article is really some kind of "raw". Quotes the same Jordan "ripped" from the general text.
        No references to Arab or Persian historians.
        I'm with you.
        1. siberalt
          siberalt 27 July 2019 18: 45
          -4
          Type Google’s genetics Kolesov and you will learn a lot on this issue on a scientific basis, and not from Jewish myths. It is already good that Putin gave him a laboratory in Russia and returned from the States. hi
      2. Hantengri
        Hantengri 27 July 2019 11: 48
        +5
        Quote: siberalt
        Why does everyone spread rot on our modern great, world-recognized scientists such as Chudinov, Fomenko, Kolesov, Dragunkin.

        In what kind of "whole world"? Who are recognized? laughing Understand that the chamber of the specialized medical institution in which you live and its contingent is far from the whole world.
        1. siberalt
          siberalt 27 July 2019 18: 49
          -1
          In which world? Yes, in the scientific, of course! What did you think about? Greetings from ward number 6! We miss you.laughing
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 27 July 2019 18: 58
            +4
            Quote: siberalt
            In which world? Yes, in the scientific, of course! What did you think about? I am not Drozdov.

            Then, I think, it will not be difficult for you to provide evidence of this. That's right for every hoopoe, starting with the city crazy Chudinov and further down the list.
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 July 2019 21: 24
            +4
            Quote: siberalt
            In which world? Yes, in the scientific, of course! What did you think about? Greetings from ward number 6! We miss you.laughing

            And I thought the seventh! In the sixth repair !!!
            Here is a list of suggested:
            1. Chamber number one - Napoleons (three pieces)!
            2. Payment number two - prosecutors (two copies ";
            ...
            7. Ward number seven - Chudinov, Fomenko, Kolesov, Dragunkin and others!
            1. Cat man null
              Cat man null 27 July 2019 21: 38
              +2
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Ward number one - Napoleons (three pieces)!

              Ward number 1 is called "observation room". The largest (from 10 to 25 people, approximately), and the most "fun". There is a pair of each creature, and half of them are "in mating".

              This is so, by the way wink
      3. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 27 July 2019 12: 25
        +11
        Quote: siberalt
        Again, some Western nonsense about the origin of the Slavs are trying to push.

        You, an ignoramus, an intelligent person tries to enlighten, and instead of thanks, you are depicting a fly on the glass with your buzz.
        Quote: siberalt
        In Eastern Siberia, Greek mirrors are found in excavations.

        In Serbia, during the excavations of an ancient monastery, a parchment of the XNUMXth century was found, perfectly preserved. In it, of course, in Greek, literally the following was written (I give a translation into Russian from Old Slavic): "I, the great leader Sprtko the Mighty, appeal to my descendants. If after a thousand or half a thousand years someone begins to broadcast to you about our five thousand years old and more Slavic stories - cut off his tongue and his right hand, for this is a blatant and vile lie. I, Sprtko the Mighty, the son of Voimir the Glorious, the grandson of Milobor the Great, testify for you - in the fifth century from the birth of the Christian god, we have just completed the process of our ethnogenesis. the eve of the summer solstice by the learned husband, brother Efimiy, from the words of Prince Sprtko the Mighty, the authenticity of whose signature I assure. " Next, a sign is drawn that resembles a fleur-de-lis with an elongated and rounded middle petal. What can you say about such a find?
        Quote: siberalt
        There are also scientific studies of famous scientists of geneticists, linguists, and chronologists.

        There is. Sorry you do not read them.
        Quote: siberalt
        Not for that, have 5 been taken away from us thousands of years of our history along with the calendar?

        And this is probably the very 5508 years? And here I get a message from stocks, which was already published on this site a couple of years ago:
        People from ancient times were interested in the age of the world in which they live. Since for some time the Bible served as the only criterion of the truth of this or that knowledge, the age of the world was calculated based on the information contained in it. They considered it in different ways, got different results: 5969 years at the time of Christ’s birth, 5872, 5508, 5500, 5493, 5472, etc. In the Byzantine Empire it was decided (for what reasons it does not matter) that the most correct date is 5508, that is, Jesus, in their opinion, was born in 5508 from the creation of the world. It was this date that came to Russia together with Orthodox Christianity and all the chronicles that were written by Orthodox monks, and the events were dated in this way - from the creation of the world according to the Byzantine calendar. And so it was until Peter introduced dating directly from the birth of Christ. 5508 has no real historical background, it is simple, if you will, an invention of church scholastics, the fruit of their reasoning, accepted as canonical, but not the only one.
        Learn, be enlightened, it is useful at any age.
        PS I copy this text to the desktop and I will post it as necessary, so that I don’t write again. I'm tired.

        Quote: siberalt
        Why does everyone fool our modern great, world-renowned scientists such as Chudinov, Fomenko, Kolesov, Dragunkin

        Because these are not scientists, but clowns. Not a single, at least somewhat self-respecting scientific historical publication, has not a single "work" of theirs been published - neither in our country, nor abroad. And how can they be reconciled? Chudinov has Rurik, he is Jesus Christ, he is Ivan Imanuilovich Sokolov, is buried on Mars, Fomenko has Rurik - Genghis Khan and Yuri Dolgoruky, and Jesus Christ is Andrei Bogolyubsky, at Klesov ... who is he there with Klesov? I do not remember. I am not familiar with Dragunkin's work, but I am sure that they do not accidentally find themselves in this row.
        Quote: siberalt
        The ideology of the Jews as the first people who brought "great reason" for all mankind should be the fundamental principle of the entire history of mankind.

        Once again I will resort to quoting:
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Here is a typical example of Fomenko-Klesovskiy thinking: first, on some ancient garbage dumps, to find a bunch of old feces (if not, invent it yourself), gently slob them, pull them out for public viewing, and cover them with fresh ones, increasing the total fatality a bunch of their collective creativity to the maximum size.
        1. Freeman
          Freeman 27 July 2019 14: 44
          +7
          The owner of Trilobite (Michael) Today, 12:25
          Next is a sign resembling a heraldic lily with an elongated and rounded middle petal. What do you think?

          good I have never seen such a "verbal portrait" of a graphic image of a gesture known as "fak" (middle finger).


          Shl. " A plus". "One-to-one"!
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 July 2019 21: 10
            +2
            For me, the Ukrainian trident Mikhail described. Although ..... now I am sadly looking at the letter "F", tfu twice at your Mikhail associations !!! hi
            1. Freeman
              Freeman 27 July 2019 22: 25
              +3
              Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
              For me, the Ukrainian trident Mikhail described. Though .....

              Exactly.
              One should look at things "glybzha and shirshe", and not only from the point of view of a historian.
              hi
          2. Hantengri
            Hantengri 27 July 2019 21: 45
            0
            Quote: Freeman
            I have never seen such a "verbal portrait" of a graphic image of a gesture known as "fak" (middle finger).

            Yes, really ... I didn’t make out ... drinks And Olgovich also said that I was a commonplace vulgar, a "swearing man" and generally a bad person! I'll go to the mirror and look for a halo over my head. laughing
            1. Freeman
              Freeman 27 July 2019 22: 29
              +3
              Quote: HanTengri
              Quote: Freeman
              I have never seen such a "verbal portrait" of a graphic image of a gesture known as "fak" (middle finger).

              Yes, really ... I didn’t make out ... drinks

              It's just that I, like a "layman" - "did not blur my eyes."
              drinks
  3. kalibr
    kalibr 27 July 2019 07: 04
    -3
    Quote: siberalt
    Again, some Western nonsense about the origin of the Slavs are trying to push.

    Read, not invent!
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 July 2019 21: 14
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: siberalt
      Again, some Western nonsense about the origin of the Slavs are trying to push.

      Read, not invent!

      Well, well, the Academy of Russian Sciences, will we also let it into consumption? Or send to re-education to the Chukchi, with one copy of the book "the true historian" Fomenko! bully
  4. kalibr
    kalibr 27 July 2019 07: 06
    -8
    Quote: siberalt
    Not for that, have 5 been taken away from us thousands of years of our history along with the calendar?

    10 thousand should be taken away from you altogether.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 July 2019 21: 05
      -1
      Quote: kalibr
      Quote: siberalt
      Not for that, have 5 been taken away from us thousands of years of our history along with the calendar?

      10 thousand should be taken away from you altogether.


      Wow, how Vyacheslav Olegovich does not like a certain category of VO observers! laughing
      Okay, you didn’t give a hint about the money, otherwise you would have already lined up !!! Ten cons - it's not even me so much on ... hmm! Welcome back, Vyacheslav Olegovich! laughing
      Good luck!
  5. kalibr
    kalibr 27 July 2019 07: 07
    +1
    Quote: siberalt
    world-recognized scientists such as Chudinov, Fomenko, Kolesov, Dragunkin.

    Are you seriously? Have you read their work published there? Fomenko?
  6. kalibr
    kalibr 27 July 2019 07: 08
    +1
    Dear Edward! Very good stuff. Appreciated!
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      27 July 2019 17: 38
      0
      Vyacheslav Olegovich,
      Thank you, and you: alaverdy!
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. nafanal
        nafanal 27 July 2019 21: 15
        -1
        For what, without fear of sin, the cuckoo praises .. Well further in the text. It feels like some kind of zealots gathered in VO ... droopy brains .... Here, explain to me at least for a start .. One question .. Who are the Germans .. ..
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          27 July 2019 21: 20
          +2
          Alex,
          ethnic groups, representatives of the German language group.
          1. nafanal
            nafanal 28 July 2019 06: 06
            +3
            If you look in the Encyclopedia Britannica of 1771 - the word "German" - you will see that back in the 18th century it had a completely different meaning. Today it has a meaning as "German" Bre. Enz. - interpreted this word as "consanguineous , a relative by blood "" Ancient Germans "- any community of people adhering to a certain structure of relationships based on consanguinity. So the ancient Slavs are the same Germans
            1. naidas
              naidas 28 July 2019 21: 03
              +1
              Quote: Nathanael
              If you look at the British Encyclopedia 1771 edition

              Is this the one that writes about Great Tartary (Volume 3, Edinburgh, 1771, p. 887)? They united many under the tartar: Astrakhan, Cherkasy and Dagestan, Kalmyk, Uzbek, Mongols, Tibetan. And they were also according to the encyclopedia and simply Tartaria- Kuban Tartars and Little Tartary, etc.
              1. nafanal
                nafanal 29 July 2019 08: 27
                +1
                Raised ... !!! I’m talking to you about eryoma and you to me about Thomas ... It seems that we are talking about the Goths and you are about the Tatars .. Elegantly jumped off the topic .. By the way about the Tatars ... If Andrei Lyzlov has any authority for you, at least as a source , do not share your thoughts on the origin of the European Tatars. He mentioned Scythian history in his work. Only without scolding .. I rummaged in my pedigree and it turned out that I was a descendant of the Lithuanian Tatar
                1. naidas
                  naidas 29 July 2019 21: 36
                  +2
                  Quote: Nathanael
                  If you look at the British Encyclopedia 1771 edition

                  Sorry, someone wrote about an authoritative historical source - the British Encyclopedia, the encyclopedia is as authoritative as finding Novgorod in the Smolensk region (also from it).
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 July 2019 22: 19
          0
          Quote: Nathanael
          For what, without fear of sin, the cuckoo praises .. Well further in the text. It feels like some kind of zealots gathered in VO ... droopy brains .... Here, explain to me at least for a start .. One question .. Who are the Germans .. ..

          We are not a society of cat lovers !!! As soon as the cats were captured by an ancient man, they wanted milk for breakfast! So the first cows were domesticated by man! Then they wanted cats - meat. Manual man domesticated pigs. Tired of clawing to grind. Man tamed horses, invented a wheel and a cart! I decided the cat to desire game, eggs and soft feather-beds. Here you have the home duck, chicken and geese! Even dogs for fitness !!! The truth is we don’t know whose flea from the hangover desired the camel! Well, whatever the cat is amused, humanity will still cry! lol
          1. Hantengri
            Hantengri 27 July 2019 22: 58
            +2
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            The truth is we don’t know whose flea from the hangover desired the camel!

            So his coat is nice! Balls, there, warm rugs, blankets ... As the classic said: "And what cat does not like warm blankets!" (c) (almost).
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 July 2019 05: 27
              +1
              Quote: HanTengri
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              The truth is we don’t know whose flea from the hangover desired the camel!

              So his coat is nice! Balls, there, warm rugs, blankets ... As the classic said: "And what cat does not like warm blankets!" (c) (almost).

              Speak the truth buddy !!! good
  7. Boris55
    Boris55 27 July 2019 08: 11
    +4
    Here I found a map on the internet, about where the Slavs lived.

    1. Beringovsky
      Beringovsky 27 July 2019 23: 20
      0
      Oh, that’s a map to the ancient Slavs. It’s immediately clear to whom to go.
  8. andrewkor
    andrewkor 27 July 2019 09: 30
    +3
    The article is not complete, there is no analysis of all kinds of different Chromosomes, without this in any way!
    1. Anton Yu
      Anton Yu 27 July 2019 12: 02
      -2
      extra chromosomes are now raiding. One already commented at first and the second had arrived.
  9. romb
    romb 27 July 2019 10: 12
    0
    Here is Jordan of Gotha, who was the first to mention in the source of the Wends in context as sclavus. Later, they turned into widespread "Slavs".
  10. Operator
    Operator 27 July 2019 10: 56
    -1
    Vaschenkos again crawled out into the world with the "state ready" (which, suddenly, has no borders, capital, cities, taxes, state apparatus, writing), "mixed type of culture" (this is on the territory of monopoly residence of the Aryan-Slavs from Odra to Don throughout of the entire post-glacial period) and the "southern area of ​​the steppes" (where is this anyway?).

    Particularly touching is the attempt by the Okrainets to once again push through the idea of ​​the timeless existence of the native Ukrain through the connection of the Slavic word "ant" with the Indian (the author got confused in terms - Hindi, Farsi?) With the word "anta" - the end.

    In fact, the Slavs did not live on some kind of "land" there, but on a vast territory described in the 6th century AD. Byzantine historian Jordan:
    "At the left slope [of the Alps], descending to the north, starting from the birthplace of the Vistula River, a populous tribe of Venets is located in immense spaces. Although their names now change according to different clans and localities, they are still mainly called Sklavens and Antes. from the city of Novietaun and the lake called Mursianskoe, to Dunastr [Dniester], and to the north - to Viskla [Vistula], instead of cities they have swamps and forests. The Antes, the strongest of both [tribes], spread from Danastr to Danapr [Dnieper] ], where the Pontic [Black] Sea forms a bend; these rivers are separated from one another at a distance of many crossings "

    In other words, the Slavs originally lived in the territory east of the meridional border, passing from the Jutland peninsula to the Venedic (Venetian) lagoon and occupied the territory of present northern and eastern Germany, the Czech Republic, Austria, Slovenia, Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, the Baltic States, Belarus, Ukraine and European Russian territory up to the Urals.

    In the south, the monopoly territory of the Slavs bordered on the Balkans, where the Illyrians (present-day Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro) and the Hamites (present-day Macedonia, Albania, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece) lived, as well as the Black Sea steppes, where successive ones lived (with the moment the nomadic Aryans left) Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, Khazars and other migrants from Asia.

    The fact that small German-speaking Goths, Turkic-speaking Huns, Avars and Bulgars, Finnish-speaking Chukhons and Ugrians migrated from time to time through the territory of the Slavs only means that there were no state formations on Slavic territory before the 7 century, and the density of settlement of the Slavs over a vast area Central and Eastern Europe was low, which allowed relatively non-conflict foreigners to migrate.
    Some of the aliens settled on Slavic territory, forming mestizos with a Slavic population such as the Balts, Volga peoples, Hungarians, Austrians, East Germans and Bulgarians.
    The Slavs also expanded their habitat - Serbs and Croats settled in Illyria, Antes - in today's Bulgaria, Macedonia and parts of Greece (Morea province).
    1. Warrior2015
      Warrior2015 29 July 2019 13: 30
      0
      Quote: Operator
      Vaschenkos again crawled out into the world with the "state ready" (which, suddenly, has no borders, capital, cities, taxes, state apparatus, writing), "mixed type of culture" (this is on the territory of monopoly residence of the Aryan-Slavs from Odra to Don throughout of the entire post-glacial period) and the "southern area of ​​the steppes" (where is this anyway?).
      Well, if you take many states - from the same British Empire to modern Russia, then there will be a jumble of different cultures, sometimes not connected, there is no single dominant language (the language of the bureaucracy and the ruling stratum is different). And the data on taxes and the letter simply could not reach after the Hunnic pogrom.
  11. sabakina
    sabakina 27 July 2019 11: 18
    0
    It was the early Slavs who inhabited
    And M. Zadornov said that "Slovenia" ... recourse
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 July 2019 20: 58
      +2
      I will surprise you, but the Author of the Tale of Bygone Years adhered to a similar version !!! I propose to blame the Muscovites for everything, as it is well known that they, unlike the residents of the city of Vladimir, are hacking! In addition, they speak slowly, so instead of milk, the native Muscovite, "ma la la!" So they spoiled the Old Slavonic language, to such an extent that it is called "Sta-na-sla-vyanskiy ya-zy-k", and Slovenia - sla-va-nea! So take a peck at them !!! wassat
      Now seriously - the first sources really mention SloVENE, but later on in the same PVL chroniclers use transcription close to the modern Slavs! The following rule has been fixed with historiography: if a specific tribe “Ilmen Slovenes” is indicated, then we write through “O”, if in general we drive off the ethnic group “ancient Slavs”, then we feed through “A”.
      The author considered all four versions of the origin of the word “Slavs” in a previous article!
      Regards, Kote!
  12. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 27 July 2019 11: 21
    +4
    Edward, another thanks for the regular high-quality material. good
    As for the ethnic heterogeneity of the Chernyakhov culture (by the way, how is it appropriate to emphasize Chernyakhovskaya or ChernyakhOvskaya?) I fully agree, this explains a lot and eliminates many contradictions.
    One gets the impression, and for a long time already, that the territory on which the ethnogenesis of the Slavs took place in the global historical context was something like the center of a historical "cyclone", so to speak - various, often heterogeneous in their ethnicity, constantly rushed to it from different directions. the composition of the group, mixing, mutually influencing and enriching each other, swirling in the whirlwinds of historical processes, they gave rise to this amazing Slavic society, which collected, accumulated their common energy and after a while splashed it out in a grandiose expansion in all, in fact, directions - on south, east, north and west, not affecting only the steppe (southeast) and the Germanic area (northwest). Apparently, guys who were no less cool lived there ...
    I wonder how my generalizations are correct from your point of view. hi
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      27 July 2019 17: 40
      +4
      Michael,
      Good evening,
      A very beautiful, figurative comparison. Bravo!
      It is quite possible.
      The only thing that seems to me, like a cracker, returning everything to a fellow countryman, is the process of forming an ethnic group - of any, absolutely - an extremely complex process.
      It’s just that in our society, it seems to me, as a result of a serious trauma of identity, it seems to many that the secret was hidden, the truth is somewhere out there, etc.
      Your answer, above, on this topic is brilliant, but, I think, not a horse feed.
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 27 July 2019 19: 03
        0
        Hello Edward! I will join you on all points! Especially about "severe identity trauma."
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          27 July 2019 19: 11
          +1
          Anton, good evening!
          Thank you!
          Yours faithfully,
          Edward
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 27 July 2019 19: 18
            +2
            Thank you for your creativity !!!
            I am ready to state my theory of "identity trauma" in PM. Although, apparently, it "in the axes" coincides with yours.
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 27 July 2019 22: 30
            +4
            Fundamentally, Edward paused! Since I had the opportunity to express my opinion to you on this issue and had a polemic in the framework of this problem !!!
            Now I say with an open heart, thank you very much for your work! I read it in one go! Notice the opponents of more than one constructive objection, except for Andrey (the Operator), the rest did not advance beyond the allegations and insults.
            Thanks again, the article is wonderful!
            Sincerely, Your Vlad!
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              28 July 2019 08: 47
              +4
              Vladislav,
              good day,
              thanks for your words.
              I really did not try to fight or oppose someone.
              I simply presented, as it seems to me, a consistent story based on versions of archaeologists based on the shaky data of their research, as well as rare written sources and the research of philologists.
              Like this: "if you want to understand a topic - start teaching it."
              If I oppose something, then the compote is in their heads, it is important for me "where and what comes from", and not sensational versions.
              Not without flaws, but it seems to me that an understandable "path" of the Slavs is being built, at least for me.

              PS The operator, by the way, not understanding the structure of the source, quotes Jordan, the author of not the Great Migration of Peoples, but who lived in 6. Just to show that he knows something!

              Ethnicity, which was born not in millions of distances, but in the periods when they began to be described by ancient authors.
              Otherwise, the question arises, what kind of stupid people we are - the Slavs: there appeared billions of years, but the state was not created, walked - wandered, and everything was at an early stage of the tribal system, then: feudalism "a thousand years" in Russia, and others already capitalism built.
              So, my attempt to describe our organic path, without inventions: here, too, there is no place for "modernization" of historical periods, but the consistent path of the ethnos along its organic path.
              Something like this.
              And yet, with the hope that many will try not to drag their quotes from the Internet, they will read it and want to understand what is what.
              I am preparing a short cycle about the Russian civilization and the reasons for our "lagging behind" on this organic path of development of the people.
              I hope it will be useful.
              Sincerely, Edward
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 July 2019 09: 39
                +4
                Edward, I’ve been IN since 2013! Initially, our mafia was grouped around, albeit ambiguous but able to think and reason V.O. Shpakovsky (sometimes the professor knows how to be a snob). He is opposed by V.N. Popov - our walking encyclopedia! Souls, more precisely, its two hypostases are N. Mikhailov and A. Bazhenov. A number of our members of the forum themselves proved to be the authors! There are among us daughters of robbers, doctors - corsairs and many other forum users, whose incognito I do not consider to be the right to disclose. I think our gop company - traditionalists sincerely supports your appearance as an author of articles! So creative success, however, to our pleasure!
                Regards, Vlad!
                1. Edward Vashchenko
                  28 July 2019 10: 06
                  +2
                  Thank! and mutually!
  13. Antares
    Antares 27 July 2019 11: 28
    0
    Przeworsk culture and migration directions are ready for the Black Sea

    the modern appearance of the World Cup was formed on the memory of mankind
    The fresh lake from the Pontic Sea began to fill up with a stream from the Mediterranean.
    Subsequently, several times the Black Sea was connected with the Mediterranean, all the time salting it. The last connection occurred 8 thousand years ago. Probably, this compound during the formation of the Bosphorus Strait occurred suddenly after the earthquake. A mass of salty Mediterranean water then poured into the basin of the Black Sea. Historians believe that this event happened before the eyes of the person who lived here and could be reflected in the legend of the global flood (after all, the Bible does not exactly indicate the place where the flood occurred). From the influx of salty Mediterranean water then many organisms died. The decomposition of the remains of these organisms in the depths of the sea, deprived of oxygen, created the initial supply of hydrogen sulfide, which, gradually replenishing, continues to exist until now.
    So, cultures and tribes who fled from fertile lands and localities are very attractive for nomad raids ..
    1. Operator
      Operator 27 July 2019 12: 44
      0
      At the time of the breakthrough of the Bosphorus isthmus 8 thousands of years ago, the Black Sea had a harsh climate and glacial steppe / tundra. A few residents (E1 hamites in the west and G Caucasians in the east) populated only a narrow coastal strip, as they obtained food exclusively from sea fishing.

      Almost all the inhabitants of the coastal strip were washed away by the flood, their Stone Age sites are now found at a depth of up to 150 meters. The territory of the Black Sea region and Eastern Europe freed from the glacier was settled by the Arians, immigrants from the Balkans (where they came from Altai 12 thousands of years ago).

      6000 years ago, the arias were divided into western, eastern and southern.

      5000 years ago, the southern arias domesticated horses, invented the wheel and chariots. 4000 years ago, the southern Arians began to migrate to the east (Central Asia, Iran, India), the south (Asia Minor, Syria, Arabia) and the west (Hallstatt).

      3500 years ago, the Western Aryans in place with the Northern Illyrians were driven back by the Erbins (future Celts) to the Scandinavian Peninsula, the Eastern Aryans repelled the expansion of the Erbins at the turn of the Tollenza River. At the same time, the expansion of the southern Aryans (known by the name of the Cimmerians) from Hallstatt to the west began, leading to the cultural assimilation of Basque-speaking Erbins, which eventually became Indo-speaking Celts.

      The Eastern Aryans, known as Slovenes (speaking the same language), retained their original habitat in the forest zone from Odra to the Urals.

      3000 years ago, a few Chukhon tribes began to come from Asia to the Volga region, eventually reaching Finland and the Baltic states. The Chukhons created tribes mixed with the Slavs in the Baltic and Volga regions.

      At the same time, nomadic tribes of the northern Semites, previously assimilated by the southern Aryans and known as the Scythians, who took the place of the southern Aryans, began to come to the steppe zone of the Black Sea from Central Asia.

      And then see the Byzantine chronicles of the Jordan.
      1. Antares
        Antares 28 July 2019 07: 44
        +1
        Quote: Operator
        At the time of the breakthrough of the Bosphorus isthmus 8 thousand years ago, the Black Sea had a harsh climate and the glacier steppe / tundra

        But what about the Holocene? HERE Ovid was exiled at a minimum (he complained about the cold). But then there was just a thaw

        This happened 7,5-9 thousand years ago. The global warming that continued in the postglacial period led to intense melting of the planet’s glaciers. The level of the oceans continued to rise, gradually flooding many coastal areas and turning estuaries into bays, and lakes into seas.
        The level of the Aegean Sea here rose so high that the water broke through the Dardanelles isthmus and formed the Sea of ​​Marmara. Then, rushing at a speed of 80 km per hour and crashing everything in its path, the sea stream reached the Bosphorus earthen rampart, demolished it and rushed down. The gigantic waterfall formed here threw down as much water every day as 300 Niagaras carry. The rumble of falling water was heard at a distance of up to 200 km around.

        Black Sea with paleorek channels.
        1. Operator
          Operator 28 July 2019 15: 07
          +2
          Quote: Antares
          It happened 7,5-9 thousands of years ago

          So I about the same - 8 thousand years ago, the Black Sea had the size indicated on the map in blue. Blue shallow water arose after the Flood, which destroyed the coastal hamitic Stone Age settlements in the western and southern Black Sea regions and almost all of their settlements to a depth of several hundred kilometers in the northern Black Sea region.

          The water shaft went even further than the future coastline and washed away into the sea those trying to escape on foot.
      2. Warrior2015
        Warrior2015 29 July 2019 13: 32
        0
        Quote: Operator
        The Eastern Aryans, known as Slovenes (speaking the same language), retained their original habitat in the forest zone from Odra to the Urals.

        I would say that they went much deeper east - to Northern China and to Japan, where they left their genetic markers.
        1. Operator
          Operator 29 July 2019 15: 18
          0
          Manchuria (present northern China) was reached, or rather, the southern / Black Sea arias arrived in chariots.
  14. Force multiplier
    Force multiplier 27 July 2019 12: 56
    +5
    Ossetians consider themselves descendants of the divine Ases. The Persians even renamed the country to Iran to be called Aryans. Everyone strives to improve, progress, develop, and reflect this in self-names.
    And only the Russian people are again trying to impose that the Russians are "Slavs", that is, slaves. They want to keep Russia and other peoples of central and eastern Europe in an eternal mental and cultural yoke, so that they never remember that they are Goths and Vandals, descendants of the gods.

    What kind of "Slavs" could be at the time of the beginning of the VPN, if this term itself, which did not denote ethnicity, appeared in the VI century

    Oyum - in German Aue - this is a field, meadow. There is only one locality, historically called the Field - it is the steppes of the northern Black Sea coast.
    The Goths came to eastern Europe much earlier than is commonly believed, tying them only to the Chernyakhov culture. Jordan:
    "We read that the first settlement [of the Goths] was in the Scythian land, near the Maotian swamp; the second was in Mysia, Thrace and Dacia, and the third was on the Pontic Sea, again in Scythia."
    We see that Jordan has a clear and clear answer to another "problem" that is caused by politics in its purest form - the ethnicity of the Thracians and the Getae in particular. Getae = Goths, in fact, the abbreviated name of this wonderful book Getica
    Then Jordan gives an amazing story about the campaign of the Gothic king Tanausis in Egypt. The details of the story correlate well with the Egyptian sources for the "Sea Peoples". It is also noteworthy that the Egyptian hieroglyphs were deciphered only in the XNUMXth century. More than a thousand years after the Jordan.

    the Goths fought here and defeated a certain people sleeping [spali], but according to archeology, it was the early Slavs who inhabited this territory.
    The speech in the passage is about the times, in relation to which even theorists of slavish identity did not use the term "Slavs", but only "Proto-Slavs". But the term "Proto-Slavs" is absolutely meaningless, as you can brand any ethnic group that lived in this territory

    In general, terms, dummies and other things accepted in modern science, such as such designs: "Sarmatians, Slavs, Germans, Balts and, on the periphery, even Thracians participated in the formation of the Chernyakhov culture"
    Of course, they are as politically correct as possible, but completely meaningless, they are replaced by real issues. That any arch. culture or any state in history is not mono-ethnic, this is already understandable a priori. But in every culture there is an ethnos that created it, its bearer, which spread it among other ethnic groups, and not always peacefully.

    Now here is the very fragment that the popularizers of slavish identity interpret as "Jordan calls the Ants and Wends Slavs." So:
    "... the rocky Alps At their left slope, descending to the north, starting from the birthplace of the Vistula River, a populous tribe of Venets is located in immense spaces. Although their names now change according to different clans and localities, they are still mainly called Sklavens and Antams."
    We are not talking about the "Slavs", but about the Venets, that is, the Vandals. Venets, Vandals, Vinulas, etc. - these are all closely related Vandal tribes, correlated approximately like the Goths and the Gepids, that is, several ethnically identical nations.
    One part of the Venets became a separate nation - Antami, apparently due to the fact that, based on the data of onomastics, the Venets were a ruling minority there, a significant part of the Ants were Iranian-speaking nomads. But a significant part of the Venets by the time of the Jordan lost statehood and became dependent on other peoples, and that is why he calls them Sclaveni. This term is not an ethnonym, it is a status. Denotes a dependent nation or tribe, tributaries

    I recommend the book of Jordan to everyone. Meet the deeds of our great ancestors from the original source
    1. nafanal
      nafanal 27 July 2019 21: 03
      +1
      It is necessary to trust Jordan with an eye ... Yes, and whether he was at all ....
    2. Antonchen
      Antonchen 27 September 2019 17: 22
      0
      everything is correct. only the word Slave did not have the original meaning of Slave. Slave in other latin of another root. And the confusion of concepts because of the many prisoners sold to Rome is Slavic.
  15. Beringovsky
    Beringovsky 27 July 2019 14: 50
    +1
    Strange people, these goths. Epic losers. 200 years hanging out all over Europe, like ... well, okay)))
    And not to say that they were absolutely mediocre. But they always managed to find themselves in a wrong place and not when they needed to.
    The first "state" of the Goths, in the very east of Europe, was completely destroyed by the hordes of the Huns.
    The latter, in the very west, in Spain, is destroyed by the Arabs.
    Those that were "in the middle" also failed miserably.
    In a word - perish, like Aubrey, their own tribe no inheritance
    1. nafanal
      nafanal 27 July 2019 20: 49
      +1
      And you didn’t notice one nuance .. The Goths appeared as soon as the Roman Empire began to bend .. the Western one .. As soon as it grunted ... everything .... nobody remembered the Goths. All the Jordan’s nonsense about the Goths appeared much later. Yes and was this jordan at all
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 29 July 2019 22: 13
      -1
      The gunas delivered their invasion of the Slavs from the power of the Goths.
      They defeated the Goths and went further west. As if "historically lucky" fellow
  16. rayruav
    rayruav 27 July 2019 16: 05
    0
    there is only one small question: what could the Huns take from impoverished Slavs, before the 17th century, German-made swords, Russia bought metal in the west until Peter the Great developed the Ural deposits
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      27 July 2019 17: 41
      +6
      And the poor Huns took from the poor Slavs, too, that the poor Khazars from the poor glades, Vyatichi and northerners, sometimes receiving swords in response, as in "The Legend of the Polyana Tribute."
      “On the crack from the rahl”, “on the whitewash from the smoke”: of course, mainly food.
      Neither agriculture nor nomadic cattle breeding provided sufficient food and the surplus product in the form of military compensation was an essential element in ensuring the livelihoods of the tribe and ethnic group. Tributaries were often doomed to starvation of weak members of the community: children, the elderly.
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. Beringovsky
        Beringovsky 27 July 2019 22: 47
        0
        A small clarification - on the slit from the snout.
    2. Beringovsky
      Beringovsky 27 July 2019 22: 57
      -2
      Well, right before the 17th century ... Take more, until the 17th year, when Peter the Great, he is V.I. Lenin, after the civil war, she was troubled, cut through a plastic window. Then steel was found in the Ural Mountains. And the wheel at the same time. Personally, Peter Ulyanovich found it.
  17. nafanal
    nafanal 27 July 2019 20: 00
    -4
    Each time, everything is weirder and more wonderful .. It’s time for the author to calm down .. It’s interesting, but almost no alternative opinion is printed on VO .... Well, the author and eel ... I’m waiting for a reasoned presentation of the appearance of the Slavs, again some kind of water .. .. And here is the list of literature .. Some kind of nonsense ... I am not a big expert in the history of Slavs but common sense ... as I think God is not offended .. It seems that the author is mocking us ...
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      27 July 2019 21: 30
      +7
      Alex,
      but it seems to me that you are the troll, or kidding when you write that Jordan was not ready.
      There is such a thing in historical science: work with sources, knowledge of historiography,
      it is a pity that it (work) may not coincide with your "common sense", but there is no evidence that your common sense is the most common sense, and not
      This makes no sense ....
      laughing
    2. Hantengri
      Hantengri 28 July 2019 00: 10
      +6
      Alexey, I want to ask how you have with the logic? Is everything okay?
      Statement No. 1
      Quote: Nathanael
      I am not a big expert in the history of Slavs

      Statement No. 2
      Quote: Nathanael
      but common sense ... as I consider it, God is not offended ..

      Question:
      if Statement # 2 is true, then on what basis, if Statement # 1 is still true, you, in general, can talk about the "history of Slavism" and draw conclusions: "nonsense" or not "nonsense" ???
      1. nafanal
        nafanal 28 July 2019 07: 19
        +2
        Believe it or not ... I have always envied people who could blur any question with a verbal balancing act. Yes .. The wrong science was called a "corrupt girl" Since you are silent about the question you are looking for as a partisan, to hell with them, with these Slavs. Let's return to our bar..pardon .. goths. Why should I believe Jordan.?. In the issue of acceptance The Goths of Christianity are so confused that, in my opinion, he himself did not know what he was writing about ... Somewhere in 360 from Alexandria, Bishop Wulfila or Ulfilas arrived to the Goths - as they are called in Brothers Encyl. He converts them to Christianity, somehow suspiciously quickly .Creates for the illiterate Goths a writing based on the Greek language, translates the Gospel into their language. Isn't it a talented boy. The first thing that catches your eye .. The pagan name of the bishop. Wolfila is a wolf. What is his name at baptism? And who ordained him. With such a name, the Bishop's rank in the church is decent ... Second: if the Goths are a "Germanic tribe" then why was a separate writing system created for them, although the rest of the "Germanic tribes" (Saxons Jutes and other Franks) already used Latin. And in what language did the goths say? And the last thing .. You've probably heard about the so-called Silver Code. This Gospel is written in the Gothic language by the "Greek script" of Wulfila. It is dated to the 6th century .. The writing technology is very interesting. It is written in silver. And it is very difficult for the 1660th century .. silver. The technology of obtaining silver nitrate was first developed by Johann Glauber in 1665. And then, like a pie from the oven, this code appears. The monks of some abbess near Cologne discovered ... XNUMX. And there are dozens of such inconsistencies with the Goths ... And why should I believe Jordan?
    3. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 29 July 2019 22: 20
      0
      "It seems that the author is mocking us ..." ////
      ------
      Not the author, but the story is mocking. And not over the Slavs (who were lucky that
      many peoples migrating through their habitats did not linger,
      and slipped further), and the story scoffs at its simplifications.
  18. Engineer
    Engineer 27 July 2019 23: 02
    +1
    I’ll write what caught my eye when reading
    As far as I can judge the attribution of Zarubinets culture, the resolved issue. It is bastard. Not Slavs and, most likely, not Germans, but immigrants from the Thracian-Illyrian world with strong Celtic cultural influence. But the post-Zarubin Kiev culture seriously claims to be Slavic, although the very Sedov considered it to be Baltic
    Chernyakhov’s culture is not monolithic even conditionally. Judge for yourself: there are three types of dwellings — half dugouts, pillar houses, and even stone ones. The dishes are diverse - pottery and stucco, "bowl" and "pottery". Burials - and corpses and corpses.
    The Gothic (Scythian) Wars III in AD are not mentioned. But they testify to the enormous power of the Gothic unification of the tribes. No joke - the death of the emperor in battle. The Goths almost arranged for the Romans Adrianople version 0.0. This would allow the reader to better understand what our ancestors faced.
    I was expecting comments on the weak armament of the Slavs in a quote from Jordan about their collision with Germanrich. It’s very interesting. Well, as they say your expectations are your problems).
    I was surprised by the description of the Slavic-Sarmatian contacts of that period as the assimilation of a relatively small Iranian-speaking population by the Slavs in the forest-steppe zone. Sarmatians of the XNUMXst-XNUMXrd centuries AD are a very toothy predator. Their raids penetrated deep into the forest zone to the north - Sarmatian arrows were found in the ashes of Zarubinets settlements. I can’t believe in simple assimilation, even taking into account the superiority of the Slavs in numbers. I would rather suppose that aggressive Sarmatians dominated the forest-steppe, but were squeezed out by the Goths. Collisions are ready when moving southeast with the Sarmatians known.
    The author’s phrase was confused. They (the Slavs) get acquainted with the tactics and armament of the steppe warriors, the “control system” of nomadic tribes, which contributed to the accumulation of military skills by Slavic tribes and clans. They didn’t borrow anything. Or did they borrow it?
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      28 July 2019 08: 30
      0
      Denis,
      thanks for the comments.
      The truth is nothing to answer, it's hard to say something here - this is your vision based on your preferences. The question of Zarubenets culture is completely open, you think that the Thracians (K. V. Kasparova, M. B. Schukin) have resolved it.
      The Slavs and Sarmatians - the relationship is a mystery, perhaps so and so, but if according to your version (or guess) - they were ousted by the Goths, then how was their assimilation by the Slavs - and you disliked Sedov V.V. wrote specifically about assimilation, which did not end completely in the XNUMXth century. in some territories. But they disappeared "like obry".
      Here is an area of ​​mysteries, based on archeology and comparative ethnography, I see it this way.
      My ready is determined, as I believe, by the staged development. The Slavs (Przeworsk) culture - were at a lower stage, here again guesses, but at the very beginning of the tribal system, if I may say so. From here, and not from anywhere else, military weakness, which was compensated by the multiplicity. But there is no other way to explain it.
      I think that everyone has his own.
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 28 July 2019 10: 01
        +1
        Edward, welcome.
        By and large, there is only one "claim" - where are the Gothic wars? With them, the article would be much more interesting as it seems to me.
        I try to avoid categoricality. History constantly throws conflicting facts and their interpretations.
        I really don't like Sedov). Yes, the most respected Slavic archaeologist. But he usually did not even mention the concepts that contradict him, unlike the same Shchukin. In the book "Slavs: Historical and Archaeological Research" in 2002, he refers to Kasparova, noting the Celtic influence on the Zarubintsy culture, and ignores her conclusions completely. The Bastarn-Zarubintsy hypothesis has long been formed, but he has silence. The Slavs and that's it.
        The main question. As far as I can judge from the article, you do not adhere to the widespread point of view that it was the Sarmatians who had a huge influence on the Ants already in the post-Cherniakh era. That Antes are Slavs led by the Sarmatian element. This is true?
        Each as always with his own. BUT if during the exchange of opinions, at least on the one hand, the horizons of cognition and perception expanded, this is a positive result.
        Best regards
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          28 July 2019 10: 13
          +1
          Denis,
          Thank you for your arguments, I definitely take them into account! and I'm trying to correct something ... as usual, if it matches my "views".
          Honestly - it's nice to hear your opinion.
          Pro is ready - if they have seen it - in passing, a slightly conceptually different task stands, but this is beyond the framework of HE.
          Yes, about the Sarmatians - Vernadsky and the entire pre-revolutionary literature - I do not see analogues in the light of the development of ethnography ... Avars and Slavs, Bulgarians and Slavs? The long question.
          Yours faithfully,
          Edward
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 28 July 2019 12: 00
            +1
            Edward, thank you for trying to answer everyone.
            This article seemed to me to be more verified and balanced than the previous one. A flurry of stones from readers who expected something more heroic from our ancestors, but the scale is unpleasantly surprising. It seems to me that in this series of articles, a certain FAQ would be very appropriate, even if not in a direct form. The goal is to convey the most fundamental information about the Slavs. For example, why aren't vandals Venets? Because the same Jordan writes these names in different ways and never mixes them up. How do archaeologists search for the ancestors of the Slavs? They use a retrospective method - they identify cultures of "Slavism" which do not cause serious doubts, catalog their signs and build a chain from them to previous cultures, trying to find these signs. What are the earliest archaeological cultures most Researchers recognize Slavic? Penkovskaya, Prague and, with reservations, Kiev. What archaeological features did these cultures carry? Inventoryless burials with a predominance of corpse burning, half dugouts with stoves instead of foci, pottery (forms dominated where the height of the vessel is greater than the diameter) molded (not pottery) ceramics What do you think?
            By the way, I'm trying to find Rusanova's opinion about Penkovo ​​culture. From memory, she denied her "Slavism". For me, she is a greater authority than Sedov. If she is right, then it becomes completely sad because in the V century only Prague culture will remain for the Slavs. Very poor.
            Yours faithfully,
    2. Edward Vashchenko
      28 July 2019 11: 56
      0
      This would allow the reader to better understand what our ancestors faced.

      Denis,
      With your permission, I’ll try to develop this topic, or somehow use your conclusion?
      if you do not mind?
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 28 July 2019 12: 01
        0
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        Do you mind

        No problem
  19. kalibr
    kalibr 28 July 2019 12: 55
    +1
    Quote: siberalt
    Yes, in the scientific, of course!

    Give a link to the work of Fomenko published in a scientific publishing house in the West.
  20. Sertorius
    Sertorius 28 July 2019 15: 17
    +3
    Ancient Russian fun - the search for roots. Kuzmin, Gideonov, Ilovaisky, Rybakov, Alekseev and many others - all this has long been written in a variety of versions. Choose any for yourself.
    I chose for myself that which at least explains the genetic uniformity of the modern population of our country. 80%
    falls on two haplogroups (yes, yes, I know, now spitting in the direction of Klesov will fly again).
    Almost all the ethnic groups mentioned in the article are fragments of the vast Scythian world (Goths too). This is all you need to know about the origin of the Slavs.
  21. Sunstorm
    Sunstorm 28 July 2019 20: 12
    +1
    Speaking of giants and Guds) In Belarus there is such an object of relief, hills of an elongated (spindle-shaped) shape), called from ancient times "Volatouki" (Volotovki), it is assumed that the name comes from the word Volat (he is a hero) something like this
  22. boriz
    boriz 1 August 2019 22: 09
    +1
    Nowadays, attempts to analyze the movements of ancient tribes not supported by the genetic data of the remains are a stupid waste of time for the author and readers. If there is data - it is necessary to bring it, if it is not - it is better to wait, now in the DNA of genealogy there is an accelerated increase in the database, which will soon lead to a qualitative leap in understanding history. And the attempts to continue to crush the water in the mortar are just a desire to cut down the dough easily. To write some kind of compilation of old data, recalling which in 2 - 3 years will be just ridiculous (and the author is ashamed).
  23. andrew42
    andrew42 4 October 2019 13: 37
    0
    The key to upsetting the "Roman-Gothic" interpretation of events in Eastern Europe is the Huns. Recorded as "dirty barbarians", unskilful nomads who never dismount from their horses, the Huns are the cornerstone of the Western European interpretation of history. This approach is a tracing paper from the graphs of Matthew Paris about the "terrible Mongols" roasting people on spits, as well as tracing paper from the horrors of the Moscovites of the "mad" Ivan Terribl. If we accept that the Huns are the South Ural and Siberian Scythians, then everything falls into place. The military stratum of the eastern Scythian tribes equipped themselves, and moved to the aid of their less warlike families of their western counterparts, the descendants of Scythian and Slaven, who were crushed by the descendants of Skand (Goths). That is why (more an army than a people), the Huns flashed so brightly, and just as quickly dissolved in the vastness from Pannonia to Yaik. Not intending to discuss and defend the "non-falsity" of the Veles book, I recall one episode mentioned there as "the iron horse came to us, and broke the ready", after the death of a certain Bus. This episode fits 100% into the picture of Jordan, when the Huns drove the Goths out of the Black Sea and the Dnieper region, simultaneously piling up the upset Alanian elite.
  24. Molot1979
    Molot1979 15 October 2019 06: 13
    0
    There is hardly any reason to talk about the victory of Vinitarius over the Antes. Jordan says that he "captured" God with his sons and elders. And if the Goths won where they won, then Jordan did not hesitate to write just that. Like, they fought and defeated. And then - "captured". Rather, it resembles a treacherous blow at negotiations or at a feast.
  25. Corsair5912
    Corsair5912 17 October 2019 16: 37
    +2
    When will the "historians" get tired of writing nonsense about the Slavs, as about some primitive tribes who came from somewhere to the Russian Plain? Allegedly, some kind of Goths conquered the Slavs, reached the Black Sea and created their own state. The Slavs, according to archaeological data, at the beginning of the 1st millennium AD. inhabited an area of ​​about 1.5-2 million square meters. km, their number was several million people and in terms of technology they significantly exceeded the savage nomads, including the Goths. The tribes would not have been able in the 5th century BC. to build a system of fortifications "serpent ramparts" is only within the power of a strong, wealthy, populous state.
  26. Sergey Soloviev_3
    Sergey Soloviev_3 25 October 2019 08: 32
    0
    This book describes the origin of the Wends (Slavs) from Siberia, the Ob River basin. And the fact that the author indicated is rather a consequence, because the Gustrow ode speaks about the relocation of the encouragement from the Ob River. Good afternoon!

    I would like to acquaint you with a book dedicated to the history of the origin of the Huns. What is its significance? it substantiates and proves the origin of the peoples of Russia on the primordially Russian territory, the basin of the Ob River, which is important both in political and cultural terms. That is, all the insinuations associated with the alleged seizure and colonization of Siberia by Russia are nonsense, for Siberia, the Ob region, are the territory of the ancestral home of the peoples of Russia. The book will not leave indifferent the lover of the history of our country. This essay consistently proves that the Huns came from Yamal, and this people has repeatedly appeared on the world stage, and moreover, it has not disappeared anywhere. In light of this, the legends of the encouraging people (natives of Obdoria, later called Mecklenburgers) about the exodus of this tribe from the Ob River, described in the "Guestrovskaya Ode", are interesting. Huns (Hans, that is, geese, and the meander is a schematic representation of a goose) were the first names for the people of the Andronovo culture who reached the Baltic and reached China itself. It was the Scandinavian sagas that made it possible to study the history of this people, and now part of it lives in Avaristan, in the Russian Federation.

    ! Huns, people who came from Yamal. Attila, kagan of the Huns from the Welsung clan. "

    https://www.litres.ru/sergey-solovev-16101/gunny-narod-prishedshiy-s-yamala-attila-kagan-gunnov/chitat-onlayn/page-2/

    https://ridero.ru/books/gunny_narod_prishedshii_s_yamala_attila_kagan_gunnov_iz_roda_velsungov/

    The electronic book was recommended by Pedro Paulo A. Funari Universidade Estadual de Campinas, Faculty Member.

    Soloviev Sergey Yuryevich, graduated from the NIB (MOSGU), 48 years old
    Lives in Moscow. [email protected]
    38 articles were published, and the book “Cretan Mycenaean culture and religion, as part of the Indo-European culture of Eurasia of the Bronze Age”
    ISBN: 978-5-413-01907-8
    Also, the book "Secrets of Kuskovo Park" https://www.litres.ru/sergey-solovev-16280929/tayny-parka-kuskovo/chitat-onlayn/
    ISBN: 978-5-5321-1781-5
    An article written by me under the title:

    "THE TRUE MEANING OF VOLUTE, ACANTHUS, MEANDER AND PALMETTA, AS A SYMBOLIC IMAGE OF ILIOS AND LETO, APOLLO AND ELICIA IN ANCIENT GREEK ART"
    "THE TRUE VALUE OF VOLUME, ACANTHA, MEANDRE AND PALMETTA AS A SYMBOLIC IMAGE OF ILIOS AND SUMMER, APOLLO AND ELISIA IN ANCIENT GREEK ART"


    eLIBRARY ID: 38256060

    Recommended on academia.edu
    Jelena bogdanovic Iowa State University, Faculty Member
    Pedro Paulo A. Funari Universidade Estadual de Campinas, Faculty Member
  27. Let's go to the world
    Let's go to the world 26 December 2020 14: 43
    0
    there is a version that the Antes, Venets and even Slavs are the same root words, and that maybe this is generally the same term initially in different vocalizations, transmitted in different ways