The clan and military organization of the early Slavs of the VI — VIII centuries

Prince Dervan and sorbians of the XNUMXth century Author's drawing

Entry

This is a sequel cycle of our work at "VO"dedicated to the early political or rather military-political stories early Slavs.

We will consider the military organization, weapons and tactics of the Slavs of this period, based on historical sources.

What was the military organization of the early Slavs? I would like to consider controversial issues related to it in a number of articles, starting with this one.

First of all, it must be said that the Slavic military invasions represented a real military threat to Byzantium. As a result, a whole chapter was devoted to them in the "Strategicon of Mauritius" (without relativity about the authorship of this military work). Although many other enemies of the empire did not receive such an honor, for example, the Arabs, who literally thirty to forty years later capture the entire east of the empire. This was emphasized by the outstanding specialist in military Byzantine history, V.V. Kuchma. But what kind of military system was this, not from the tactical point of view of that period: “army” (Στράτευμα or Στpατός) or “crowd” (“Ομιλoς), but in terms of organization?

Society and military organization

The military organization, especially during the period under review, directly derives from the social structure. Actually, the sources do not allow us to speak clearly about the level of development of certain tribes of this period, but related disciplines (anthropology, ethnography, and partly archeology) indicate, by indirect signs, landmarks.

In previous articles on “VO”, we noted the fact that Slavic society was at an early stage of pre-state development — it was a tribal society or an early stage of “military democracy”, as was commonly believed in the middle and second half of the XNUMXth century.

Along the way, we note that such concepts as “controlled anarchy” or “segmental society” are still trying to apply to this period of Slavic history, but these concepts are not particularly clear (M. Nistazopulu-Pelekido, F. Kurt).

Byzantine authors saw in the Slavic tribes a society that “is not controlled by one person, but since ancient times have lived in democracy (democracy),” as Procopius of Caesarea wrote, and as the author of the Strategicon added:

“Since they have different opinions, they either don’t agree, or even if they agree, then the others immediately violate the decision, because everyone thinks the opposite of each other and no one wants to give in to the other.”

Despite the significant threat that the Slavs posed to Constantinople, at the same time we see that they were significantly inferior to the neighboring peoples in armament and military art.

What is the reason?

The “backlog” of the Slavs militarily from their neighbors, primarily the Germans, and the nomadic peoples, consisted precisely in the fact that they were at different stages of social development. Roughly speaking, the Slavs at the beginning of the VI century, very appraisally, were at the same phase as the West Germanic tribes in the XNUMXst century. BC.

It is this situation, again due to the late, in comparison with the German ethnos genesis of the Slavs as such, and their institutions in particular, was obviously reflected in military affairs. Simply put, if you live by birth and you are surrounded by similar societies, then you simply do not need chain mail and swords, it’s enough for you weaponswhich is used in the hunt. However, you have neither technological nor material opportunities to have it.

That is, in a settled Slavic society there was no need for additional weapons, except for that which was used in production activities: an ax - everywhere; spear, bow and arrow - on the hunt.

As for the nomadic peoples with whom the Slavs had contacts, even assuming the fact that they were at a similar social stage, due to the development of military technologies and governance structures, nomads dominated the farmers. But these same factors subsequently became the most important reasons for the social lag of nomadic peoples (the development of technology did not lead to a change in society).

And if the society of the Sarmatians and Alans was more or less close in social structure to the early Slavs, then the Huns, and even more so the Avars, were familiar with a higher order management system, which we wrote about in previous articles on VO.

And one more addition. A natural question arises: why did the Proto-Slavs or the early Slavs, having contacts with neighbors who had advantages in military technology, could not borrow them, for example, from the Sarmatians or the Goths?

In the VI century. sources, both written and archaeological, tell us about the same simple set of weapons among the Slavs, as before. It seems that the answer here is simple: like in our days, military technology, sources of raw materials for them were seriously guarded by the owners of those: the sword could be captured or received as a gift, but it was either difficult or impossible to copy. And as Jordan emphasized, the Ants compensated for the lack of armament with a numerical advantage [Getica 119, 246].

With the growth of the population, the surrounding resources were not able to feed the clan or family, which caused the need for a “surplus product”, which was obtained through military operations, this encouraged Slavic society to move and change, but we must take into account that changes in the clan system are extremely slow , and this is directly related to military affairs and weapons.

Tacitus reported the armament of the Wends - Proto-Slavs, which, according to many researchers, in the XNUMXst century AD they are:

“... they carry shields and move on foot, and moreover with great speed; all this separates them from the Sarmatians, who spend their whole lives in a wagon and on a horse. ”

[Tacit. G. 46.]

We will learn about the same weapons in a few centuries. Even the involvement of the Proto-Slavic and Early Slavic tribes, first by the Goths, and later by the Huns, in the migration movement did not lead to changes in armaments (we will discuss weapons in detail in subsequent articles).

More than once on the pages of the sources of this time we come across information about the "national" weapons, not to mention the "national" clothes of various tribes. In the "Chronicle of Fredegar" it is reported that the ambassador of the Franks, in order to get to the Slavic king Samo, had to change into Slavic clothes.

Here a significant factor was the social moment, which formed the military organization of the Slavs and indirectly influenced the armament.

So, Slavic society was at an early stage of a tribal system with signs of “controlled anarchy”, as written by Byzantine authors (Evans-Prichard E., Kubel L.E.).

When considering the organization of the troops, we proceed from the well-known military structures of the Indo-European ethnic groups during the transition of society to the pre-state and early state stages. And they consisted of the following parts: squads of the military leader; sometimes, there were independent military organizations, such as secret and age-gender militarized unions; gangs, robber organizations (such as berserkers). Some of them could later be transformed into squads of the prince as ruler. And finally, the main was the militia of the entire tribe.

As this was the case with the early Slavs, we consider below.

In this article we will study the situation with the Slavic "nobles" or the military aristocracy, in the next article - the question of the prince and the squad in the VI-VIII centuries.

Military know

For the emergence of a squad or professional "military-police" organization, an important condition has always been the presence of legitimate leaders in large numbers, but the Slavic clan organization at this stage did not imply such a system. Neither written nor archaeological sources give us such information, and at the following historical stages we also do not observe these institutions. In contrast to, for example, the Homeric Greeks with a huge number of “heroes” and basileus or Scandinavia, where already in the Wendel period (VI-VIII centuries) there were a lot of local, territorial and, in addition, “sea” ones, which contributed to the creation of this system with the aim of as a struggle between themselves, and for campaigns in other lands in the name of glory and wealth. And Tacitus portrays German society to us with well-established princely squads and nobles, who lead an idle lifestyle in non-warfare.

“To know, leaders, combatants, undoubtedly,” writes A. Ya. Gurevich, “stood out from the bulk of the population both by their lifestyle, warlike and idle, and the myriad wealth that they had plundered, received as a gift or as a result of trade deals ".

We see nothing of this in the Slavic society of the period under consideration.

It is worth paying attention to the episode with a certain captive Helbudiy (who was a native ant), bought by one ant from the Sklavins, his name was consonant with the name of the Romance commander, and this ant wanted to secretly return him for money to Constantinople, thinking that he was a commander. When “the rest of the barbarians” found out about this, almost all the Antes gathered who legally believed that the benefits from the liberation of the Byzantine “stratig” should go to everyone. That is, for this tribal society it is still difficult to talk about the concentration of treasures among individuals, all the riches captured are distributed by means of fortune-telling, and we do not know what a separate share of the leader is at this stage.

Antian leaders Mezamer or Mezimir, Idarisius, Kelagast, Dobet or Davrit, mentioned under 585, and the “ricks” of Ardagast (end of the 593th century), whose name, perhaps, is not accidental in origin, according to one version, from the god Radegast, just like Musoky (764), and Kiy is the obvious leader of a clan or tribe, not a separate squad. The same can be said of the Slavic archons, the northerner Slavun (765-799), Akamir, who participated in the conspiracy of the Byzantine nobility in XNUMX, and Nebula, who fought in Asia.

Prestigious items of military equipment and horse equipment of the post-Hunnic period. Source: Fig. 1. Kazan M.M. On the military organization of the Slavs in the V — VII centuries: leaders, professional warriors and archaeological data // “By Fire and Sword” // Stratum plus. No. 5. S.18.

With the siege of Thessaloniki at the beginning of the VII century. Slavic tribes were commanded by the “exarch” Khatson, but his power was conditional, the leaders of the tribes obeyed him insofar as one could not speak of any control system. And as Mauritius Stratig wrote at the beginning of the XNUMXth century, "because they have many leaders who disagree with each other." That is, historical documents captured the earliest stage of the formation of the "nobility", "Nobility" among the Slavs, the same process took place among the Germanic tribes on the Roman border about six centuries earlier, when persons who played the most outstanding stood out from the ranks of free tribesmen role in organizing the military defense of the tribe ”(A. Neusykhin).

In this regard, it is worth paying attention that, according to the names, it was the tribal leaders with military functions, and not the military, and even more so the political leaders - the princes: the leader of the Alpine Slovenian Valucca, who headed the Alpine Slavs and Sorbians during the reign of Samo - the origin of the name is from "the great, old", and the head of the sorbs of Dervan is from "old, senior." Moreover, the second edition of the “Annals of the Franks” speak of the “king” of Dragovit (end of the XNUMXth century):

“... after all, he far exceeded all the kings [princes. - V.E.] (regulis) of the Wilts and the nobility of the clan, and the authority of old age. "

We believe that the translation “Tsarek” does not reflect the real situation, of course, we are talking about the princes of the tribes that were part of the Union of Wilts or Velets. Thus, this is another significant evidence that the head of the tribal union is a typical leader of the tribe, possessing nobility and authority due to his age and experience, and not exclusively a military leader.

Such a society needed a military leader during campaigns and migrations. And we even have indirect evidence of how the choice of such a “prince” took place. This ceremony has been preserved in several Slavic countries, of course, having undergone significant changes. In the Late Middle Ages in Carinthia or Korushki (in Slovenian), a ceremony of choice (last time in 1441), festive-formal rather than real, took place with the participation of the whole people, while in Croatia and Serbia - only in the presence of nobles (zupans) , bans, sotsky, etc.).

Princely stone. Historical Museum. Klagenfurt. Austria

It is hardly possible to agree with those who believe that this was due to the fact that the Franks destroyed the patrimonial nobility of the Slovenes while in Croatia it was preserved. Most likely, Croatian society went further into development, and an unnecessary element of the formal participation of “the whole” people was excluded. Initially, in this process, the whole nation or free farmers, kozeza, played a key role, and the procedure was as follows: the oldest kozez sat on the Prince's stone - the throne, under which a piece from an ancient Roman column was used. It can be assumed that earlier this action was performed by an elder - the head of the clan or the head of the tribe. A spotted bull and a mare stood with him. Thus, there was a transfer of “power” or “military power” - to the prince or leader. The ruler was tied up in a folk costume, handed a staff, a symbol of perhaps the judiciary, and he, with a sword in his hand, climbed the throne, then he turned to each of the four cardinal points. Turning to the sides of the world meant that enemies coming from either side would be defeated. In the XV century. the ceremony went to church, after which the ruler sat on a stone throne, standing on the Goslosvetsky field in Krnsky Castle, previously it was the Roman city of Virunum, in the province of Norik, now the valley of Zollfeld, Austria.

In this ceremony, of course, you can see the features of the early election of military leaders, the period of military migration of the Slavs.

Thus, we can clearly say that during the period under review, tribal institutions did not single out from their midst either a sufficient number of military leaders, or a residual number of soldiers living solely due to their military craft. Society did not need such a structure, and could not afford it.

Princely power becomes decisive for society when it stands above a tribal organization, and in order to carry out its normal functioning a squad is needed as an instrument for pursuing politics and suppressing conservative tribal institutions.

This stage in the Slavic society of VI-VII, and, possibly, in the VIII century. not yet arrived.

Sources and Literature

Helmold from Bosau Slavic Chronicle. Translation I.V. Dyakonova, L.V. Razumovskoy // Adam of Bremen, Helmold from Bosau, Arnold of Lubeck Slavonic chronicles. M., 2011.
Jordan. On the origin and deed of the Getae. Translation E.Ch. Skrzhinsky. SPb., 1997. P.84., 108.
Cornelius Tacitus On the Origin of the Germans and the Location of the Germans Translation Babichev AS, ed. Sergeenko M.E. // Cornelius Tacitus. Composition in two volumes. St. Petersburg, 1993.
Procopius of Caesarea War with the Goths / Translation S.P. Kondratiev. T.I. M., 1996.
Mauritius Strategicon / Translation and commentary by V.V. Kuchma. St. Petersburg, 2003. S.196 .; Procopius of Caesarea War with the Goths / Translation by S.P. Kondratiev. T.I. M., 1996.
Theophanes the Confessor Translation G.G. Litavrin // Codex of the oldest written news of the Slavs. T.II. M., 1995.
Chronicle of Fredegar. Translation, comments and entry. Article by G.A.Schmidt. SPb., 2015.
Brzóstkowska A., Swoboda W. Testimonia najdawniejszych dziejów Słowian.— Seria grecka, Zeszyt 2.— Wrocław, 1989.
Curta F. The Making of the Slavs: History and Archeology of the Lower Danube Region, c. 500-700. Cambridge, 2001.
Nystazopoulou-Pelekidou M. "Les Slaves dans l'Empire byzantine". In The 17th International Byzantine Congress. Major Papers. Dumbarton Oaks / Georgetown University, Washington DC, August. NY. 1986.
Gurevich A.Ya. Selected Works. T.1. The ancient Germans. Vikings. M-SPb., 1999.
Kubbel L.E. Essays on political ethnography. M., 1988.
Naumov E.P. Serbian, Croatian and Dalmatian zones in the VI-XII centuries .// History of Europe. Medieval Europe. T.2. M., 1992.
Neusykhin A.I. Problems of European feudalism. M., 1974.
Sannikov S.V. Images of royal power of the era of the great migration of peoples in West European historiography of the VI century. Novosibirsk 2011.
Khlevov A.A. Harbingers of the Vikings. Northern Europe in the I-VIII centuries. SPb., 2003.
Shuvalov P.V. Urbikiy and the “Strategicon” of Pseudo-Mauritius (part 1) // Byzantine Temporary. T. 61.M., 2002.

To be continued ...

Comments

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Edward I have only emotions!
Beautiful, tough and honest !!! Without a hundred thousandth history, without hikes from Hyperborea or the North Pole, without the participation of aliens and not a super duper of the Indo-Scythian-Aryans !!! More precisely with them, but in moderation and in the subject, as it really is, since our language belongs to the Indo-European group of languages, which means that we are distant descendants of descendants of restless riders on bulls with battle axes, however, like others!
Even I will be harsher - The proto-statehood of our ancestors like steel was tempered in the crucibles of wars of the great migration of peoples for more than 8 centuries. Each time, like slag under the hammer of history, breaking away from the fiery harvesting of a tribe: Sklavinov, Antov, etc.
It is this that will ultimately lead to the emergence of a unique system of proto-state organization of polyudy !!! Which in turn will “give birth” to Russia in the form of which we know!
Once again, Edward, thanks!

[Han Tengri]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

Edward I have only emotions!
Beautiful, tough and honest !!!

Greetings, Vladislav! I completely agree with you. Edward’s articles are always like hard rock against the background of the usual pop-music on the site.

[Vend]

Roughly speaking, the Slavs at the beginning of the VI century, very appraisally, were at the same phase as the West Germanic tribes in the XNUMXst century. BC.

I can’t agree, where can I put such a fact, for example? "44. When this Ayo had already ruled the duchy for a year and five months (641 g), the Slavs came on a great many ships and set up their camp near the city of Siponta (Siponto). They set up hidden traps around the camp, and when Ayo, in the absence of Raduald and Grimwald, opposed them and tried to smash, his horse fell into one of these traps. The Slavs attacked him, and he was killed along with many others. When Raduald was informed of this, he quickly appeared to them and spoke easily with these Slavs in their own language ”Deacon of the“ History of the Lombards ”.

[Smoke]

waiting for posts about tartaria - VILIKA ARIA !!!! 11111

[cost]

And as Mauritius Stratig wrote at the beginning of the VII century

Lord, how much you have mixed up here. We must be careful with the facts. History does not tolerate inaccuracies and free interpretation. The Byzantine emperor in 582-602 was not called Mauritius Stratig, as you cronyically call him, but Flavius ​​Mauritius Tiberius Augustus (Greek Φλάβιος Μαυρίκιος Τιβέριος Αὔγουστος; lat. Tiberius Maurius
Fig. 1 solid Byzantium, Flavius ​​of Mauritius Tiberius Augustus

And the irreplaceable supreme strategist for the entire reign of Mauritius, he had a very real person named Kamentiol Prisk, about which Mauritius himself (?) Also narrates in the treatise "Strategikon", which contains, in particular, valuable information about the early Slavs.
I will tell you more - a number of modern researchers, for example P.A.Geisman, consider the authorship of the emperor very doubtful and suggest that the author of the treatise is Comentiola. This is indirectly indicated by the following line of the "Strategikon" - "... In 593, the Emperor ordered me to replace his brother Peter in the army and cross the Danube in order to drive the Avars away from the Peloponnese and force them to peace. To protect the capital, the Emperor wanted to leave the centurion of the green ( ?) Fock, but I and the Domestic Presentin tearfully persuaded him to put the hypostrateg of George, and not to let Fock's troops into the city ... "

[Caretaker]

Quote: Rich

To protect the capital, the Emperor wanted to leave the green centurion (?) Foka, but I and the Domestic Presentin tearfully persuaded him to put the hypostrateg of George, and not let Foka's troops into the city ... "

As if they didn’t want to let the “greens” into the city. Looks like?

[Edward Vashchenko]

Dear Dmitry,
I didn’t interfere
I recommend you, for example, the work of P.V. Shuvalov. Urbicius and the "Strategicon" of Pseudo-Mauritius (part 1) // Byzantine Times. T. 61. M., 2002., which is indicated in the list, disputes about the authorship of "Strategicon" exactly as long as they study this document.

I’ll tell you more - a number of modern researchers

- but why did you decide that I am not aware of historiography on this issue, I did not enter into this dispute at all, read in the text:

As a result, a whole chapter was devoted to them in the "Strategicon of Mauritius" (without relativity about the authorship of this military work).

[cost]

Dear Edward,
once again carefully reread your article, and only now drew attention to "Shuvalov P.V. Urbiky and "Strategicon" of Pseudo-Mauritius (part 1) // Byzantine Calendar. T. 61. M., 2002. "in the list of sources you have given.
The puzzle came together. The expression "Mauritius-stratig" in your article is your subtle irony of a specialist historian to the authorship of this treatise attributed to Mauritius .. Forgive me for doubting your competence because of my inattention.

Thanks for the great stuff.
Dmitriy

[Edward Vashchenko]

Dear Dmitry

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Edward my thunderous applause !!!
The new picture is cool !!! There are no words alone emotions ++++++++++++++++++++
Sincerely, Vlad !!!

[Edward Vashchenko]

I tried to take everything into account

[Boris55]

Roughly speaking, the Slavs at the beginning of the VI century, very appraisally, were at the same phase as the West Germanic tribes in the XNUMXst century. BC.

Underdeveloped however?

Interestingly, and who is Cyrus, Darius, Alexander, Byzantium, Rome, Sweden, the Poles, the French, the Germans already twice in a row, by the winter boots?

[mr.ZinGer]

Eh, forgot to mention Ramsess the First and Nebuchadnezzar!

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Boris55

Roughly speaking, the Slavs at the beginning of the VI century, very appraisally, were at the same phase as the West Germanic tribes in the XNUMXst century. BC.

Underdeveloped however?

Interestingly, and who is Cyrus, Darius, Alexander, Byzantium, Rome, Sweden, the Poles, the French, the Germans already twice in a row, by the winter boots?

And here is underdevelopment? If you play with your own names, then you need to start with the era of Germanaric and Atila. It was in the time of the latter that we can carefully speak of the first mention of Slavic tribes! It is to this era that linguists attribute the appearance in the Slavic language of the words: honey (Hun), sword, helmet and hut (German). In this case, the word shield, spear, club is our family. Is this a trace of Chernyakhov’s culture (the union of Germanic and Slavic ethnic groups) or two centuries of confrontation by Antov and Sklavinov?
Further steeper and worse the era of the great migration of peoples over and over again involved the pro-Slavic tribes in the historical kaleidoscope! She, as a sling, spun and threw the latter across the entire space of Europe. It is with their submission that alliances and states with a Slavic component begin to arise, such as Bulgaria, Moravia, the Czech Republic, etc.
I can’t pass by the Avar Khan Bayan, his fateful significance in the history of the Slavs is found not only in tracing paper in the “Obra” of the Tale of Bygone Years, but also after a thousand years in Pushkin’s poem “Ruslan and Lyudmila”!
Contrary to Bar’s opinion, more than once or twice we “gave the Germans a crib”. For almost 20 centuries, being close relatives (in historical terms), we have assimilated and assimilated, and the scale of this meat grinder is hard to imagine! Where is the power of Germanaric, where is the capital of Oboritov and Lutich !!! Only the realization that the Goths lived in Crimea, and Berlin and Rostock of the city of Western Slavs can put the neophyte historian in an uncomfortable position!
Cyrus, Darius, Alexander (what is this? Is it not Ivan the Terrible’s son-in-law 3) proper names. Rome, Byzantium while we put an end. All of them had "problems" with the "Scythians", more precisely with the nomadic peoples of the northern Black Sea region. But already a contemporary of Alexander the Great - Aristotle believed that the "Scythians" is the collective name of the barbarian tribes. Could our ancestors be among them? In principle, they could, since up to the 4th century AD Indo-European languages ​​lived in the northern Black Sea region. But whether they were Slavs is a debatable question. Still, the structure of the Slavic community is closer to the societies formed within the forest-steppe, rather than a nomadic way of life. In the beliefs of the ancient Slavs there is no cult - a horse, for that is a cult - a bear! The owner of the forest, not the steppes.
In the forest, it is more convenient to live in small communities and subsistence farming. Slash agriculture prevented the formation of a rich cultural layer, similar to the cities of Hellas, Phenicia, Egypt. Hence the professional stigma of the Slavs "invisible people"!
The lack of roads, the need to expand the food supply pushed the ancient Slavs to the banks of rivers and lakes. All this together served as an impetus for the involvement of the Slavs in the economic system of Byzantium. By alloy "monkusil" to Kiev and their further sale to Constantinople.
The point in the proto-state of Russia, put Princess Olga. Which, by refusing to fall in love (at the same time as a representative office, a winter fair, a court, collecting tributes in one bottle), began to "plant graveyards"!
But this is another story and another project - our Russian!

[3x3zsave]

My respect, Vlad! That's just this post pulls on a candidate minimum!

[Sergey S.]

Quote: Boris55

Underdeveloped however?

In this case, this is not so.
People were not smarter or dumber.
They just had to solve other problems.
Unfortunately. the author did not show this. In his sequence of facts and conclusions, there is no Arab direction of Slavic activity, reasons and speed of migration across Europe and Asia, religious factors, including a controlled, peaceful / militant worldview, priorities of family relations.

Quote: Boris55

Thus, we can clearly say that during the period under review, tribal institutions did not single out from their midst either a sufficient number of military leaders, or a residual number of soldiers living solely due to their military craft. Society did not need such a structure, and could not afford it.

War and the military are our everything. I do not argue with that.
But the reason is not that society could not afford ...
On the contrary, in epic times, some civilizations fought endlessly (robbed), and they could not afford a settled life with tillage ... Asian nomads, for example.
Militarized civilizations either live off others, or develop crafts and other technologies. And until they succeed in these technologies, these civilizations are not capable of survival.
the development of new technologies is long and expensive, it is familiarity with other cultures, it is the division of labor and the development of merchants ... it is a religion that promotes all this.
In the pre-Christian period, the Slavs fully corresponded to their time - they occupied a large territory, expanded their areas of residence and controlled territories, ensured stable population growth and the level of technical and state development.

Quote: Boris55

Princely power becomes decisive for society when it stands above a tribal organization, and in order to carry out its normal functioning a squad is needed as an instrument for pursuing politics and suppressing conservative tribal institutions.

Right...
How, if projecting today, the Russian Guard is needed to suppress the institutions of the state’s past state ... even if this is partially true, but the main thing is still different, the external enemy influences must be fended off.
So the prince’s squad, - protected the existing order from external enemies and internal resistance, for example, when collecting tribute, or, as they say now, taxes.
It is strange that the Varangians have not yet been dragged into this ...

Quote: Boris55

This stage in the Slavic society of VI-VII, and, possibly, in the VIII century. not yet arrived.

I guess it has arrived ...
The social conditions have not matured ... Too low population density ... Tasks for the development of new territories and the expansion of the ethnographic base ...
What do you mean?
When developing Siberia and the Severs already in the recent past, we can say that Semyon Dezhnev and Yermak Timofeevich were not princes ... But in real life their power was, in fact, princely.

[3x3zsave]

Unfortunately. the author did not show this.
The author is engaged in macrohistory.

[Edward Vashchenko]

The social conditions have not matured ... Too low population density ... Tasks for the development of new territories and the expansion of the ethnographic base ...
What do you mean?

Clan system.
I write about this not only in this article, but throughout the cycle it goes through a white thread.
"Community without primitiveness". The early states began to arise among the Slavs sharply later (we’ll get to this), for example, Ancient Russia - the formation of a state (IX-X centuries) just during the period of the fall of the tribal system and the transition to a territorial community, and it was still oh so far to class society ...

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Edward!
Throwing beads to piglets, one must be sure that they know what they are writing about in their “posts” !!!
Yours, or rather our counterparts, do not catch the fundamental differences between the tribal society and the state! More precisely, following the outside of the picture, they are sure that one sign is enough for the state - the arming of power !!!
Hence the various stamps in the form of “Empires of Atila”, “Kingdoms Ready”, etc.
So in spite of your prompts to the average man almost through the paragraph “on common property”, “on gender”, etc. Almost everyone overlooks the fact that the Slavs are still a century away! And many do not realize that Russia was the last in the plead of Slavic states !!!
Regards, Vlad!

[Edward Vashchenko]

It is a pity, my task was to convey precisely this significant factor, otherwise it turns out that we do not see forests behind the trees.
And myths, myths, myths

[mihaylov]

Edward:

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

And myths, myths, myths

[Edward Vashchenko]

That's for sure, bravo !!!!

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

And myths, myths, myths

You breed them. Or Glagolitic, a myth in your opinion? The presence of their OWN writing for savages who do not need an organization. As you say. The Germans do not have their own written language, they borrowed from Rome, the Romans from the Greeks, the Greeks from the Phoenicians. And we had our own. How can you dismiss such a serious fact? From Glagolitic? To chase such "historians" in the neck.

[Edward Vashchenko]

And who here doubts the Glagolitic?
And historians definitely need to be driven to the neck, and in general, all those who are doing their job in their specialty, to rush, to drive

[Sergey Medvedev]

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

And who here doubts the Glagolitic?

You kept silent in your "research" about the existence of their own written language among the Slavs, who "lagged behind in development" for 600 years from the Germans, who never had their own written language.

Quote: Eduard Vaschenko

And historians definitely need to be driven to the neck, and in general, all those who are doing their job in their specialty, to rush, to drive

Then I agree with you. Many historians have long been retrained as propagandists for grants. About you I do not know why you are Russophobe. Maybe for free.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: Boris55

Interestingly, and who is Cyrus, Darius, Alexander, Byzantium, Rome, Sweden, the Poles, the French, the Germans already twice in a row, by the winter boots?

Are Russians really?
Kira - Scythians.
Darius - the Greeks with the Macedonians.
Alexander is nobody.
Byzantium - whoever did not give (and she also distributed right and left), but the Russians are the least.
To Rome - mainly Germans, and certainly without Russians at all, even if we consider any Slavs as such.
The Russians measured Sweden as it should only in the XNUMXth century, before that they often received from them for their "zapatka".
The Poles have been knocked on the Zapatka for centuries since the X, and for eight centuries, in general, on equal terms, as we are to them, as they are to us. In the XNUMXth century, here, yes, they gave them the best of luck, they still can't forgive us.
The French were tapped only in the XNUMXth century. - Once, but very epic.
The Germans ... We have had tender relations with the Germans since the beginning of the XNUMXth century, where the conversation is not about "twice" or "three times", but about the fact that we "repeatedly" beat each other's faces in blood with them with varying success. And the most epic victories, again, fall on the last three hundred years.
Catch a thought?
Yes, Boris, we won the greatest military victories over opponents from Europe, victories that allowed us to significantly expand the boundaries of our state at the expense of eternal opponents ... under the "traitors" and agents of the West, the Romanovs, and precisely "under the shadow of the Orthodox cross."
Think about it at your leisure.

[Nikolai Korovin]

Still, not to expand at the expense, but basically to return your own. The western border of Kievan Rus in the X century (we will continue to call it the term of the XIX century) passed approximately along the well-known Curzon line. Lviv was founded by Daniil Galitsky in 1256. Tartu - Dorpat - Dorpat - Yuriev was founded in a remote, sparsely populated area by Yaroslav the Wise in 1030. Tallinn - Revel - Kolyvan - the first mention in 1154 in the Arab chronicle, a Russian city. Chyud participated in the calling of Rurik, but was in no hurry to build cities. It is worth recalling that Riga was founded by the Livonian Order in 1201: "We allowed the Germans to build on our land [a fortress] Riga and a church for the baptism of the pagans there." (N.I. Pavlishchev, 1873).
Under the constant onslaught from the west of more numerous and compactly living peoples (the population of Poland at the beginning of the 17th century was much larger than the population of Russia), our ancestors, after the collapse of the Golden Horde, naturally rushed to the sparsely populated east - the warlike ardor of the nomadic peoples died away, they resisted relatively weakly, and the Russians subjugated them, but did not forcibly assimilate and did not systematically terrorize, although, of course, there were incidents. But what about the Kutuzov, Yusupovs, and almost half the noble families of Russia in the XNUMXth century? Many have Tatar roots. Perforce, one must agree with Gumilyov. And mutual penetration began even with Alexander Nevsky and Sartak, the son of Batu, who, according to the testimony of Pope Innocent IV, professed Christianity. Hence the legends of the kingdom of presbyter John in Asia among Western European knights.

[DMB 75]

Thanks, very interesting!!!

[Molot1979]

And there is only one illogical moment. How, having neither organization nor even normal weapons, could the Slavs create so many problems for the Goths and Greeks?

[Edward Vashchenko]

Dear Molot1979,
to be continued - about the system of "normal" organization in the following articles.
Best regards,
Edward

[Molot1979]

Dear Edward. No organization of normal weapons canceled or replaced. Legions in armor and chain mail are not defeated by hunting bows and forks. Heavy cavalry cannot be defeated with banal spears and axes.

[Edward Vashchenko]

But no one overpowered the heavy cavalry at this stage.
Such a concept, from the point of view of studying the sources, as "normal weapons" does not exist: the Swiss defeated the "normally" armed knights, the English archers defeated the "normally" armed French knights, etc. etc.
By organization, I mean not only, but rather not so much, division into regiments, divisions, etc.
And the structure of society and how it could organize its armed forces.
For the period under review, this is a tribal, clan organization, primarily a raiding method of war.
But let's not rush, all the articles on the real organization of the "armed forces" of that time and what kind of weapons, based on sources, were real - we will consider - the articles are ready).

[Molot1979]

Oh, is it? You distribute data on weapons for centuries, up to the 8th. At this time, Samo's victory over the Avars had already become a distant history. And how did he defeat the Avars? Threw arrows from hunting bows and stopped the cavalry shaft of the steppe dwellers with just spears? Without the use of helmets and chain mail? And without your own cavalry, I suppose? And what did God conquer with what? With the same spears and working axes? These are the Goths who beat the Roman legions more than once? The problem is that the declared and undeniable successes do not correspond to the declared resources at all. How about the Greeks? There is a decline, but not total. Weapons, armor, military branches - everything is available. Nevertheless, the Slavs armed with Mr. Nom and sticks "create serious problems." And they don't even have squads. It doesn't work like that. Either there were no successes, or the weapons and organization were not as bad as it seems from our far away.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

The Goths themselves did not go far from the Slavs. The same power of Germanaric, it is a banal tribal union (proto-state formation, however, like the “empire” of Atila).
Within the empire, the Slavs led trouble. That's it with a capital letter.
It is worth reading the Byzantine contemporaries of the participation of the Slavs in the campaigns of the Avar Khan Bayan.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

I liked Edward's drawing!
Although I wouldn’t draw a round shield, but large growths, to the spearmen, variations are possible here, following the testimonies of contemporaries, since the Slavs were described with both round and growth shields. Although I honestly didn’t have enough war with an ax, and I would cram a shield carrier, but the author was right, the weapon was expensive, the sword was essentially a status and rare item.
Another hut question in the background? Maybe after all there should have been half-dugouts or huts?

[Edward Vashchenko]

Vladislav, welcome!
Axes, sulits he was careful not to "stuff", as the sources do not really confirm. Although the ax was certainly used, there is no doubt about it.
Huts - I tried to make half-dugouts, as it were - probably did not quite work out.
Best regards

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Here it is as if to count the number of crowns in the log house. According to archaeological finds, it is not clear what was in the earth and what went out! At the same time, the half-earth should have been deepened clearly below the freezing point of the earth and above groundwater.
In general, there should be from five to seven rows of logs, which is in the illustration. So I take my words about the huts back. The only thing in the future is to add log huts and smaller windows. The maximum height is two to three crowns. Well, I'm so mean.
Regards, Vlad!

[Caretaker]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

At the same time, the half-earth should have been deepened clearly below the freezing point of the earth and above groundwater ...

The semi-dugout could have a bedding outside the walls, as in old village houses "zavalinka", along the way, this solves the problem with a high, high groundwater table.
Although, on sandy soil, but on a hill, you need to dig a mine to the water.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

That's right, I'm about the same!
Given that part of the land went to the attic and the dumping was without a “braid”, then three or four crowns should be covered with earth.

[Caretaker]

All the crowns could be closed. Probably depended on the ground.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

It also waved me! Above Eduard, I expressed my doubt that this is a semi-dugout, and then I began to count the crowns!

[Edward Vashchenko]

Honestly, I dug dugouts for the background, but I’ll take into account all your comments, as well as Leonid’s, that it’s not difficult to redraw

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Edward! Everyone can offend an artist. Given that for example I will not draw this. As for the huts, here, the Ranger and I arranged games of the mind!
By the way, it’s easy to talk about huts if you are sitting in a village! And at least crowns, proportions before your eyes.
Well, idealists, we are a little .... do not be offended by us please.
Edward, if indeed you are encouraged to redraw the huts. So let there be three to four crowns sprinkled with earth and turf above the ground. And make a corner of the house visible, with logs chopped into a bowl. Moreover, the groove under the log should be from the top, and not from the bottom as it is now. The board should not be in the courtyard of the 7th century, only half-logs. Well, the chimney should be above the door. III .. the window has shutters. Ok, I'm quiet.
Sorry if that is not so!
Sincerely, sincerely yours Vlad!

[Edward Vashchenko]

Vladislav,
everything is correct, thanks for noticing and correcting me,
especially since the image of a village from Bulgaria in the 19th century is in the work of Sedov, but somehow he portrayed it: like a background, while he was tormented by the "fighters".
I will definitely redraw the background, thanks again for the "vigilance" and benevolent objectivity!
Mutually and with deep respect!

[Phil77]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

Everyone can offend an artist.

But not everyone has time to escape.

[3x3zsave]

the half-earth should have been deepened clearly below the freezing point of the earth and above groundwater.
To get so fucked up, especially in conditions of the mouth of the Neva! Where the water goes, two bayonets of a shovel, and the freezing point is deeper than a meter. But people somehow lived ...

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Anton, we still build booths and houses on the "hillocks" in flood plains.
To the north, they practice hacks to chop on pine stumps a meter or more high. Apparently the tradition has remained from local paddocks and Ostyaks.

[3x3zsave]

To the north, they practice hacks to chop on pine stumps a meter or more high. Apparently the tradition has remained from local paddocks and Ostyaks.
This is not a tradition, this is a normal taiga practice, "so that the small animal does not get it." We also did this, and Fersman, including. Against a bear - it does not work, too smart a beast.

[Trilobite Master]

Greetings, Anton.

Quote: 3x3zsave

To get so fucked up, especially in conditions of the mouth of the Neva! Where the water goes, two bayonets of a shovel, and the freezing point is deeper than a meter. But people somehow lived ...

In the hills where these conditions can be met.
Almost all the ancient settlements are located on the hills or high banks of the rivers. Those in the swamp - with the guarantee of the century, the earliest, XVIII.
Speaking specifically about the mouth of the Neva, no one settled down to Peter below Landskrona-Nyenschants, simply because everything was mercilessly flooded there.
If you now look at the normal map of the Leningrad region, then clusters of small old villages are clearly visible on hilly areas, and as soon as the terrain is slightly leveled, it is either empty or modern villages are standing, up to two hundred years old, and on average one hundred years.

[3x3zsave]

Michael! They settled. For a thousand years ago, the problem of "surge wave" did not exist at all.

[Trilobite Master]

Eight hundred years ago there were already islands in the Neva delta, that is, the conditions were similar to those of today. The bay was also extended to the east, narrowing towards the Neva Bay, that is, the western wind also had to catch up with the water, "locking" the Neva. So, I think there is no reason to believe that floods are a matter exclusively of the New Age. Or is there any research on this? I just don't know.

[3x3zsave]

Eight hundred years ago from about. Gutuevsky to the mouth of the Okhta - day transition on oars. Hydrology has changed. Well, the climate ...

[Trilobite Master]

I do not know. As for the climate, I remember, we exchanged views. I don’t think that due to fluctuations in the average annual temperature, isotherms, directions of prevailing winds, etc. could change significantly. The channel of the Neva could change, but not dramatically.
How much is a day trip on oars? Depending on the type of vessel and the number of rowers, I think, from twenty kilometers in clear water in calm. I go twenty or thirty on a kayak without straining. The record is seventy-five. If you now take a Pella-type boat and row on it from Gutuevsky in the direction of Okhta in one person, taking into account the flow of the Neva you will hardly be able to cope in less than a day ... How else is the wind ...
In short, I think that if there is no "adult" research on this matter (I mean floods), then it makes no sense to speculate on this topic for specialists like us.
Regarding the population in the delta - according to the salary book of 1500, there seemed to be nothing there, although in the book itself even the single-yard villages, count the hamlets, are all copied.

[3x3zsave]

Regarding the population in the delta - according to the salary book of 1500, there seemed to be nothing there, although in the book itself even the single-yard villages, count the hamlets, are all copied.
Where do they come from at this time? When for 250 years, hefty men with war iron chasing each other past the courtyard, the most complete extrovert masochist will begin to think about the place more calmly.

[Trilobite Master]

Well, there were villages on the bay and to the right and left of the Neva, though at some distance from the coast, and on the Neva itself, the Landskrons also stood. I think, after all, that it was impossible to live there precisely because of natural conditions - floods and swamps.

[Caretaker]

Quote: Trilobite Master

In the hills where these conditions can be met ...

With language removed.

[3x3zsave]

My respect, Edward
Architecture is always harder to draw than people.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Mutually
Somehow I did not pay attention to the "most important question" among the military organization ... but, I have already corrected it - and threw trees, otherwise there are varieties without trees)

[3x3zsave]

Historical drawing always has a small feature. Depicting a Norman of the X-th century, with an Arab blade, you can always shake off, like, "to the sword" took in the service of Basileus. With a picture of his wife, this will not work. Absolutely.

[Edward Vashchenko]

By the way, with the drawings there are the most problems, problems in their absence on the given story, from the word at all, it really slows down the publication - it takes a long time to draw, it takes a lot of time.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Edward Vashchenko

By the way, with the drawings there are the most problems, problems in their absence on the given story, from the word at all, it really slows down the publication - it takes a long time to draw, it takes a lot of time.

I agree!
Different crap on the topic of Neo-Slavism is just the sea, and the cat wept for illustrations worthy of publication!
Regards, Vlad!

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

“Pictures” especially excite me to A. Samsonov’s articles “Slavs with crossbows on bears”, “Bears with machine guns on Slavs”, etc.
A week ago I was in the “Deer Streams” National Park, Nizhneserginsky District, Sverdlovsk Region (Urals). On the route killed the phenomenon in the form of a remake of the "Slavic pre-Christian temple"! There are no words alone emotions !!!
The history of the purchase of this land from the Bashkir elders in 1741 has reliably remained in history!
Eight centuries after the baptism of Russia, where the Urals, where the Slavic gods !!!
Now, if Bazhevsky’s snake in a stone had been carved or a boletus was belted, he wouldn’t write a word! But Perun, on the Stone Belt !!!?

[Edward Vashchenko]

On the route killed the phenomenon in the form of a remake of the "Slavic pre-Christian temple"! There are no words alone emotions !!!

[3x3zsave]

I don’t want to comment. I would like to publicly flog the entire district department of culture, together with the head of the district;

[Korsar4]

Sim Simych reigns. Corporal punishment introduces.

[3x3zsave]

Yes, I would immediately in the snout, with my foot in the perineum, and after bending the body, with an elbow in the kidneys!
But here's the trouble, in our departments of culture there are mostly women (that's exactly not women), which, like, by gender, is not appropriate to beat. Although, sometimes I really want to!

[Caretaker]

Perhaps, on the left house it makes sense to "replace" modern materials with more natural ones - bark, shingles, turf, etc.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

I also peered for a long time here, but I think that the leader could afford to have chopped platbands on large windows. Like skate boards on the front roof. Prince he or not Prince. The roof seems to me thatched! Then Edward gave up.
On the other hand, the Author achieved astonishing accuracy in clothes and shoes. A round shield made up of boards is generally a song.
Regards, Vlad!

[Edward Vashchenko]

I will definitely consider it!
It doesn't take long to redraw, it's good when there is a "keen" look. Thanks!
Best regards

[Undecim]

Maybe after all there should have been half-dugouts or huts?

[Caretaker]

Quote: Undecim

Maybe after all there should have been half-dugouts or huts?

An interesting version (in the photo).
But, it is unlikely that the straw will rot from the bottom during the season, because the snow cover appears and melts and the grass will have to be cut off, otherwise the roof will rot.

[Undecim]

Straw is easy to replace. I still remember the reed roofs. Updated every year.

[Caretaker]

Quote: Undecim

Straw is easy to replace. I still remember the reed roofs. Updated every year.

I did not mean the material, but the design. Roofing to the ground, quickly rotting. Like any roof, it should be at some distance from the ground.

[Undecim]

Inside view. This is a kind of hut.

[Caretaker]

A strange structure. "Leaky" hearth leaning against a wooden wall in a hole! Why in the pit?
Does the "artist" see that?

[Undecim]

It is not the artist who sees it. So see archaeologists from the German Archaeological Institute. This is a reconstruction of the home as a result of excavations of the Slavic settlement Fleckens Klitschmar in North Saxony.

[Caretaker]

Is the straw preserved too?
And the primitive hearth, even the stones are not fitted, next to the wooden wall will certainly lead to fire.
By the way, how to cook at such a hearth, at least something?
There are also "artists" among the reenactors.

[Undecim]

Is the straw preserved too?
Do you think this is impossible? If you speak German, I can reset the link. Or send questions to:
Podbielskiallee 69-71, 14195 Berlin

[Caretaker]

What about the hearth?

[Undecim]

I did not delve into such details; German is not my hobby. As far as I understood, the author considers this option as one of the probable, no more.

[Caretaker]

In the figure, the soldiers have no knives, in any form. Try to do without a knife on a hike.
No objects are suspended on the belt, pockets and backpacks are also missing :)

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

There were no pockets at that time, from the word there were none, at least among the Slavs. Pants with pockets - this is the 11th century if not later!
Before the backpack another thousand years.
Habr Prince could carry on a cart or boat. The shoulder bag of the time was a square piece of cloth.
Knives! Here you are right. On the one hand, Scramasax is not a Slavic tradition, but it’s just our fellow priest! Although I’m not an expert here, it’s a pleasure to carry a knife in “chuny”.

[Caretaker]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

There were no pockets at that time, from the word there were none, at least among the Slavs. Pants with pockets - this is the 11th century if not later!
Before the backpack another thousand years.

About pockets and backpacks, this is a "joke".
The most necessary items were worn on the belt.
The knife was an indispensable attribute of every man, you can’t do without it in everyday life.
I meant an ordinary knife, mending clothes, cutting off a twig, cutting off a piece of meat at a halt, a "last chance" weapon at last.
Scramasax could also be like a melee weapon, but it could not be.
Even with a sword, a short-bladed weapon / tool was part of the equipment.

[3x3zsave]

This is not even a weapon / tool, it is a universal household item. Well, and status household symbol.

[3x3zsave]

On the subject of knives - I agree! Important omission.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Anton, we don’t know how our ancestors wore knives! From the word at all.

[3x3zsave]

I think, like us, on the right side of the belt.
By the way, this is an eternal dispute between weapons and household items. The Romans also wore swords on the right!

[Caretaker]

If the sword is on the left, then the knife is on the right. The mounting method probably depended on the shape and size of the knife.
Probably, except for a knife, a bag with a flint and talismans were fastened on the belt.

[Demagogue]

I was pleased with the author's first drawing with huts in the 7th century, when they lived in dugouts and half dugouts. And the smoke from the chimney above the roof, when they drowned in black until the 17th century, and the smoke came out through the door and dormer windows. And the first smokers is the 16th century. After that I did not read.

[kalibr]

Well, in vain, smarter than you did not!

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Here the demagogue you are wrong, perhaps the right hut is a forge. So the smoke box to the place. Huts in seven rows are low, so that they go another meter to the ground. For the forerunner of the princely tower, just right!
And the fact that they did not read is in vain !!! Intelligent work!

[Edward Vashchenko]

maybe the right hut is a forge

Like a forge, for sure!
Just kidding)))

[gsev]

Quote: Demagogue

when until the 17th century they drowned in black,

My grandmother, born in 1907, remembers how the first stove was flooded in their Tambov village and the whole village was about to watch smoke coming from the first chimney. Before that, they drowned only in black. As far as I know in New Moscow there are still houses with wood heating. Gazprom has not yet been able to gasify even Moscow. But Ukraine was completely gasified no later than the time of Yanukovych.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

I come from the mining town of Ural Lower Sergi.
The dam was launched in 1743, all houses were drowned in white. There was a direct ban on "cutting black huts." The baths were drowned on the “black”, but for the purpose of “fire fighting” they demanded to put them in the gardens. Although by the middle of the beginning of the century of the past it was already exotic.
Blast furnace, and later open-hearth production implied the presence of used bricks. So there were no problems with stoves of different types!

[kalibr]

At first I really liked the author’s drawing ...

[Edward Vashchenko]

Thanks Vyacheslav Olegovich,
Honestly, all the work is worth it because of the drawings: the material is ready - no, there are no illustrations for this story at all, so I began to draw. I drew the foreground, but somehow I did not think about "huts", of course, I will take into account the comments and "huts and smoke" I will correct, fair remarks, I somehow did not take into account. It's funny another thing, when in the style of fantasy Slavs are drawn with swords-kladenets, there are no complaints, the Byzantines as from "Star Wars" or as in your article about the image of Alexander Nevsky

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: kalibr

At first I really liked the author’s drawing ...

Vyacheslav Olegovich, Eduard painted it himself !!!
This only adds value to the work !!!

[kalibr]

Here I am about the same. Down there is his emblem ... I know what it costs!

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Edward, changed the picture to the article !!!

[kalibr]

Ay, yes Edward! Well done. Surpassed in speed even "my" Sheps ...

[Demagogue]

Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka

Here the demagogue you are wrong, perhaps the right hut is a forge. So the smoke box to the place. Huts in seven rows are low, so that they go another meter to the ground. For the forerunner of the princely tower, just right!
And the fact that they did not read is in vain !!! Intelligent work!

If in the fantasy genre, then maybe sensible))) what is the forge of the Slavs in the 7th century? They did everything on the street, and they prepared it, and they worked the metal. In a small dugout, carbon monoxide if only poisoned immediately. And no smoke box will help. And the smokers in Europe will, in principle, appear much later, in developed regions, not among Sorbians. For hundreds of years, a mistake.

[Caretaker]

Quote: Demagogue

... what forge in the 7th century among the Slavs? They did everything on the street, and they prepared it, and they worked the metal.

I agree with the statement that the right half-dugout is not similar to the forge.
But about the lack of "production" premises among the Slavs in the 7th century, you are in vain.
It’s cold and wet

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

The author promised to change the background of the picture! So it makes sense for you to read his work. You will not regret!

[Demagogue]

Quote: Caretaker

Quote: Demagogue

... what forge in the 7th century among the Slavs? They did everything on the street, and they prepared it, and they worked the metal.

I agree with the statement that the right half-dugout is not similar to the forge.
But about the lack of "production" premises among the Slavs in the 7th century, you are in vain.
It’s cold and wet

Cold and wet, but true. Until now, scientists are not sure that in the early primitive furnaces in the Moscow state, until the 16th century, they cooked in living quarters. The Germans, a kindred nation, definitely cooked for a long time in the land, and there it is warmer, but not much. In addition, fires, since 1506, if I am not mistaken, in Moscow it was forbidden to cook in houses in the warm time. In vegetable gardens, away from combustible buildings.

Forge could be a maximum canopy with a hearth. 7th century. In Kiev, burnt by the Mongols, half-dugouts and dugouts were full, and this is the 13th century.

[Caretaker]

It is possible to draw an analogy with the northern peoples, Scandinavians, highlanders of Tibet, nomads. Under similar conditions, the behavior model is similar.
Which of the peoples living in areas with a cold climate did not use / use the hearth for regular cooking? I do not remember such.

Sealed urban areas cannot be used as an example. In the figure under discussion, the conditions are clearly not the same.

Kiev, burnt by the Mongols, probably did not have time to recover from the previous defeat. Probably in Kiev of the "interwar" period, the building was like in Novgorod or Pskov, without semi-dugouts. ...

[Edward Vashchenko]

Probably in Kiev of the "interwar" period, building was like in Novgorod or Pskov, without semi-dugouts. ...

It was so, a manor type of building7

[Trilobite Master]

I apologize, colleagues for the forced absence.
Mobile Internet worked poorly, could read articles, but could not leave comments.
Eduard, glad that you are with us again, thanks for the article - informative and interesting.

Roughly speaking, the Slavs at the beginning of the VI century, very appraisally, were at the same phase as the West Germanic tribes in the XNUMXst century. BC.

More than half a millennium? If we assume that by the beginning of the Mongol invasion we were practically at the same stage of development with Europe, then this way, it turns out, our ancestors went twice as fast ... Impressive.
No, we still have something to be proud of in our history, even without the origin of the "white race of the gods" and flights on vimanas. For one and a half thousand years to go from primitive ceramics to real flights into space ... It's cool, much cooler than making the first potter's wheel on the planet, and then spinning it without interruption for a thousand years, knowing nothing else and not knowing anything.

[3x3zsave]

I think that the potter’s wheel nevertheless gave more to humanity than Baikonur and Canaveral.

[Trilobite Master]

Quote: 3x3zsave

the potter’s wheel nevertheless gave more to humanity than Baikonur and Canaveral.

Without the first, there would be no second, and without the second, why do we need the first?
Baikonur will be evaluated in ... many years, and I think it will be no less important for posterity than fire, a wheel and a potter's wheel. The important thing is that not everyone managed to get from the pot to the spacecraft. And we managed.

[3x3zsave]

Who are "we?
You understand, Mikhail, I have already scored on my childhood dream "to see Mars". Well, at least to see a man landing on Mars !!! And I do not care who this person will be, even australopithecus!

[Trilobite Master]

Well, we all looked at the Earth from space, albeit not with our own eyes, but my great-grandmother, for example, did not see it. We flew on airplanes ... So it's okay, to each his own. And Mars ... So if not himself, maybe his grandson will send a photo by some "space-no" in thirty or forty years under a crystal dome in a blooming cactus garden, standing on a path sprinkled with diamond gravel.

[3x3zsave]

I envy you still believe in humanity. I, no longer.

[Trilobite Master]

Yes, I do not believe in anything. I just admit that this could happen. How could a nuclear war happen in the next decade, during which it is better to fall under the first nuclear strike than to survive and slowly bend during the nuclear winter.
But the fact that I’m still interested in a lot is yes. And it is curiosity that forces me to build models of a possible future — how will it be there? Maybe so, or maybe not ... but it’s interesting! After for some reason we lose the opportunity to change the world according to our taste and needs, we will continue to exist for some time as purely observers, and the only thing that will keep us in the world at this time is just curiosity. It is necessary to train him in advance, so that later it does not disappoint.

[3x3zsave]

It’s the same thing that killed cats

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: 3x3zsave

It’s the same thing that killed cats

So this, what a demarche!
Firstly, not cats, but dogs!
Secondly, it did not ruin, but led to an increase in livestock!
Thirdly, and where is Abramovich, a Volga car and a lottery ticket !!!
Curiosity, perhaps the most important factor in the progress of society, although Anton is right to get the atomic button in his dirty paws, you can "share a curiosity" even to a primitive society!
Maybe not for the first time! For example, where are the complex democratic and authoritarian institutions of ancient Greece?
By the way, their variety is surprising !!! The same Rome, Egypt, Assyria, Persia and Babylon, together with a dozen other powers, in comparison with the troubles of the ancient Greek policies, rest! Maybe there was a "boy"!

[Korsar4]

As you have thought out. Amazing wording. Something reminded Dolsky: "When regrets ease."

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Hi Michael!
Here the fact of involving our ancestors in civilizational processes is interesting. The waves of the era of resettlement of peoples over and over again cut down our ancestors from woodland with a plane. Nomadic peoples swept away tribes from the borders of the wild field and forest. But the fertile land again attracted our ancestors from the northern forests. Generation two and again a wave of nomadic tribes. And so without a break, several centuries in a row. Why are the Slavs and came out of the tribal system so heterogeneous.
Perhaps this has become the reason for our tolerance for people of a different nationality, structure and faith! In the forests there was no time for enmity, especially when there is another wave of nomads. Moreover, all our "colleagues in misfortune" have this symptom. For example, I have never observed national intolerance among the Mari, Chuvash, Mordovians or Mary. Acquired survival skill?
In fact, even the collapse of the first Slavic states benefited Russia. Already there was a very sharp breakthrough of Russia under Princess Olga and suspiciously coinciding with the collapse of Great Moravia!

[Trilobite Master]

My respect, Vlad.
Yes, I agree, I have already expressed my vision of the process of ethnogenesis of the Slavs to the previous articles of Edward.
The Slavic ethnos was formed in completely exclusive conditions at the crossroads of all the paths of all peoples during their main migrations. And from this cauldron, bubbling for several centuries, came out those who became our ancestors. And yes, perhaps these processes have influenced the formation of Slavic features such as tolerance for other peoples, cultures and religions, the ability to absorb and perceive, adopt the best in their environment.
We are now a very dynamic ethnic group. And this is the only way to create a state similar to the one in which we live.

[gsev]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

Already there was a very sharp breakthrough of Russia under Princess Olga and suspiciously coinciding with the collapse of Great Moravia!

The times are long. There is a point of view that the Iranian tribe of Roses, defeated by the Khazars, fled to the Slavic lands was able to organize the state. Although Norman theory has more supporters.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

There are many opinions, there are even more points of contact!
I can still throw up the "versions" of the emergence of statehood in Mother Russia.
As your option - “Rus - Gothic Black Sea” or “Roksolanskaya”.
As far back as the 19th century, there were from 9 to 18 localizations of the names “Rus”, “Ros”, “Rug”, etc. Here the question is different from what date to report our statehood!
Textbooks of the history of Russia the time "h" call the arrival of Prince Igor in Kiev!
Textbooks of religious studies and seminaries of the Russian Orthodox Church since the baptism of Russia!
The bulk of VO forum users, as well as pre-revolutionary historiography from the vocation of Rurik!
Alas, the truth is somewhere nearby, but we cannot find it.
The most important thing is that Russia was originally formed as a poly-state entity, which included several tribal unions. And I repeat the principle of unity was unique - "polyudy".
If on your fingers, would you be able to live in a state where the state apparatus comes to you once a week for a week (judges, rows, selects taxes and trades), and then goes to your neighbors!
So my personal opinion is that the Russian state arose from the moment of abandonment of such a "booth" in the time of Olga!
At that moment, according to the “drum”, what nationality was the ruling elite, squad, boyars and others like them. The system of pogosts buried tribal relations, including in the socio-economic processes the entire population of Russia, in contrast to the “farce for a week” I described!

[3x3zsave]

Thanks Edward!
I was already beginning to worry, "where have you gone"?

[Edward Vashchenko]

Anton,
The biggest problem is in the illustrations, I already wrote here: there are texts on the arming of the Slavs, etc., etc., but there are no drawings at all, I draw weakly, while I’ll do it all — two months have passed, and holidays, family, well , just like others.
I will try to make a "report" once a week ...

[mihaylov]

Edward! With Shrovetide!

[Edward Vashchenko]

Mutually!!!!

[3x3zsave]

Oh yeah! I agree!!! Illustrations are still a crap. I myself have six articles in my "baggage" for a couple of cycles, but the search for pictures freezes completely, up to creative impotence.

[Caretaker]

The drawing has become more realistic. Somewhat confused by the lack of weapons in most warriors.
Armament is visible only in three out of seven.

[Edward Vashchenko]

We do not have accurate weapons data for almost all the Slavs of this period, and therefore depicted it: neither ours, nor yours, the Frankish sword (Hermitage), the spear - Poland 7c (also the Hermitage).
No knives of finds, shields according to written sources were, Umbon - Bavarian (Hermitage). This is short. Weapons will be a separate article.

[Demagogue]

Quote: gsev

Quote: Demagogue

when until the 17th century they drowned in black,

My grandmother, born in 1907, remembers how the first stove was flooded in their Tambov village and the whole village was about to watch smoke coming from the first chimney. Before that, they drowned only in black. As far as I know in New Moscow there are still houses with wood heating. Gazprom has not yet been able to gasify even Moscow. But Ukraine was completely gasified no later than the time of Yanukovych.

Drowned in black until the 20th century. It's true. I meant that until 17 they drowned only in black. There were no chimneys.

[Engineer]

So, after a long break, the author again pleased with the article. Yes, and came close to the most acute issue of early Slavic history - the lag of the Slavs from their neighbors.
So, we have a very poor material culture of the early Slavic communities. Political immaturity - for a long time there was not only a state, but even chiefdoms were unstable. And, as a consequence of the first two, weak weapons, unanimously noted by all ancient authors.
I have highlighted an excerpt of an article which, it seems to me, carries the maximum semantic load and reflects the opinion of the author.

Despite the significant threat that the Slavs posed to Constantinople, at the same time we see that they were significantly inferior to the neighboring peoples in armament and military art.
What is the reason?
The “backlog” of the Slavs militarily from their neighbors, primarily the Germans, and the nomadic peoples, consisted precisely in the fact that they were at different stages of social development. Roughly speaking, the Slavs at the beginning of the VI century, very appraisally, were at the same phase as the West Germanic tribes in the XNUMXst century. BC.

It is this situation, again due to the late, in comparison with the German ethnos genesis of the Slavs as such, and their institutions in particular, was obviously reflected in military affairs. Simply put, if you live by birth and you are surrounded by similar societies, then you simply do not need chain mail and swords, you just have enough weapons that are used in hunting. However, you have neither technological nor material opportunities to have it.

So, the author fixes the lag, but the explanation does not seem to me exhaustive or even suitable. They lagged behind because they were at an earlier stage of development. This is certain. But why are our ancestors stuck at this very stage ?. The Slavs were lagging because they were lagging ????
If the venets of Tacitus (pra) are Slavs, then the Germans are older than just 100, a maximum of 200 years. Where did the lag lasting for centuries come from?

Simply put, if you live by birth and you are surrounded by similar societies, then you simply do not need chain mail and swords, you just have enough weapons that are used in hunting.

This is true if you are surrounded by the same Slavs and Balts. But in reality, the Slavs lived side by side with the Germans for centuries within the framework of the Przeworsk and Chernyakhov culture. For centuries, they have been side by side with predatory Sarmatians. The Zarubinets culture preceding Slavic cultures fell under their onslaught. So, there must be a steady demand for progress, centralization, but it is not.

Even the involvement of proto-Slavic and early Slavic tribes, first by the Goths and later by the Huns, in the migration movement did not lead to changes in armaments

I fundamentally disagree with this point. And it seems to me that the key to understanding is in it.
The Slavs did not migrate with either the Goths or the Huns. This is recorded very clearly. The area of ​​the Slavs has changed, especially since the 5th century, but they first of all mastered neighboring territories, primarily abandoned by the Germans. The first conclusion is that the Slavs did not break away from home in the first centuries of their history. Therefore, they did not show the "alien psychology" - consolidation, cohesion, an increase in the role of armed warriors because this is the only way to survive. As a result, the Slavs were militarily and socially looser than all the conquerors. The Venets were defeated by Hermanrich and Vinitarius. Especially valuable is the testimony of Jordan about the total execution of the captive elders together with God. These acts were supposed to suppress the nascent centralization. It turns out to be somewhat behind at the start, the Slavs were thrown back even more due to such defeats.
With the departure of the Germans, the Slavs had a chance to catch up. The Slavs go to the Danube and from the 6th century invasions of Byzantium begin. Successful campaigns and mining must inevitably lead to an increase in the role of military leaders and their close associates. A squad should stand out. We know that the extraction was very great. For example, in 551-552, the Gepids transported Slavic troops across the Danube for a fee of one gold stater per person. We have no evidence of the detachment of the squad, but I would pay attention to the very high combat effectiveness of the Slavic troops. Victory over the excellent horsemen from Tsurul. Or a victory over the superior troops of Scholastic in 550. Gindin and Litavrin, by indirect signs, see the cavalry in the 549 campaign. It turns out, we can assume that the Slavs still have a squad. In any case, this is a stark contrast to the later situation in Mauritius, where the Slavs could not give an organized rebuff to the Byzantines.
The centralization processes are again interrupted by the Avars this time. We know that the Avars also executed the tribal elite. The devastating invasion and subordinate role again throws the Slavs back. In the Avar army, they played the role of food for enemy swords.
Only starting from the 7th century under Samo a new process of consolidation of the Slavs takes shape.

[Engineer]

Thus, the reason for the lag of the Slavs in the material and political aspect is obvious to me-the invasion of numerous enemies. Goths, Huns, Franks, Avars, Bulgarians.

[Edward Vashchenko]

Denis welcome!
Thanks for the detailed comments.
As you noticed, this is only the beginning, ahead of you are those structures that you mentioned. So the continuation follows, and I think in the next article the swords will ring stronger)))
On my own behalf, I will only note that as, first of all, an expert on the socio-political history of Ancient Russia, I do not agree with the conclusions that only military pressure was the most important in the "lag."
I deliberately write "lagging" in quotes, since in my opinion, in the development of the Slavs, the Eastern Slavs in particular, there was no lag: they clearly developed within the framework of their history, except for those who fell under the influence of powerful neighbors (like the Bulgarians, later Serbs, Croats, etc.). Ancient Russia is an undoubted standard here - how the Slavs developed, if the pressure was serious, but not so total. It was this "pillar" path of Slavic history - Russia - that gave our ancestors the opportunity to go through such a difficult historical path. What I have already written here on VO within the framework of articles on Russian civilization.
"Lagging" was only when we compare the history of the Slavs with the neighboring Civilization, Western or Byzantine, during its existence.
But by the way, speaking of the Tacitus tribes, there is no particular trouble, the ests mentioned there remained at a deep tribal stage of development in the 13th century.
So, the reason lies primarily in the social system, as I wrote above, but we can’t remove the most important external factor from the shields.
Incidentally, this "lagging behind" or the tribal system, as a self-reproducing structure, ensured the survival of the Slavs under constant pressure.
To be continued

[Engineer]

Good evening, Edward.
For me, the backlog of the Slavs is a fact. Without any quotes. Yes, there was no lag behind the Finno-Ugric peoples and the Balts. Lagging behind the Germans and Turks is undoubted. The backlog is literally in everything. Material culture of the Slavs according to archeology is VERY poor. You wrote about the social aspect.
The tribal system was a factor of "conservation", I agree. The question was why did the Slavs come up, but the Germans did not? My opinion is about the success of the German expansion. Standard scheme. War-victory-prey-strengthening of the leaders-the allocation of aristocracy-the emergence of squads-the transition from chiefdoms to states. The Slavs did not have a period of victories for a very long time due to a complex of reasons. Our ancestors constantly met with more toothy predators and could not fight back for a long time.
A separate role was played by remoteness from Rome and Byzantium as cultural centers. The Slavs came into direct contact with them only in the 6th century. While the Germans were drawn into the orbit of Roman civilization and culture, the Slavs were in the outskirts of the same German world and communicated with great delay.Till Justinian they did not fight with Rome, did not act as federates, did not settle along the limes. They survived corny

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Before Justinian, they did not fight Rome, did not act as federates, did not settle along the limes. They simply survived.

Maybe everything is simpler, corny lived?

[Engineer]

Not any easier. Semi-dugouts, the absence of pottery ceramics, a zone of risky farming (even high risky)

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Engineer

Not any easier. Semi-dugouts, the absence of pottery ceramics, a zone of risky farming (even high risky)

Well, a half-dugout, this is not a hut and not a farce. It’s hard to build it without tools, so at least there were iron axes in the farm. Slash farming minimized risks. And there was no sense in making mansions with him. 8-12 years old, throw everything and move on. Plus they settled along the rivers and kept the cattle. Of course not honey and butter, but they lived like that.
The southern lands of the forest-steppe uniquely attracted our ancestors, but the waves of nomads cut off the “brave” wave after wave, involving the latter in their way. So it is not known that it is better to storm the walls of Constantinople behind a plow with a hungry stomach or a well-fed front of the Avar warrior system.

[Engineer]

So it is not known that it is better to storm the walls of Constantinople behind a plow with a hungry stomach or a well-fed front of the Avar warrior system.

Both are worse.
You can drive tribes subordinate to you for slaughter while sitting in the second line and remembering how you and your wife had fun with one of those who now catches arrows instead of you like Avars.
You can just take Rome and found a new state there as Goths.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

If only it were that simple!
Great Moravia, Black Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, the Lyakhov State had a Slavic component in their composition.

[Engineer]

From the 8th century. And before that, many defeats, losses and humiliations. Or just silence with mean archaeological evidence.

[andrew42]

"..with the signs of" controlled anarchy ", as written by Byzantine authors (Evans-Pritchard E., Kubel L.Ye.)." Well, well, let's listen to more "schlozers", we will be dumber. This was called the Digging right, under which the princes are judges, "book people", and not the governors. The reason for the "lagging" of the Slavs from the "Germans" is only in the fact that the traditions of Slavic society did not welcome knocking into predatory flocks, like among the Saxons-"cutters" and other "cultural" Lombards. In this regard, the blood resentment of the Gothic leaders from the Balt clan is characteristic in relation to Amalam and Germanarich: they were made simply judges ("Kruli"), depriving them of power over the military class. Different ethnopsychology - this is what separates the Slavs from the "Yermanians". Slavic society was not sharpened for war. Despite the obvious offense of the Romans, who shook off the "wild" Slavs with primitive weapons, and the offense of the Goths, who shook off the "wild" Huns with bone arrows. Anarchists, self-willed individual farmers, who do not recognize the organized principle, who do not know the military organization, who attack in a crowd, who do not know how to produce and use modern weapons, ... are settled throughout Europe. The coronavirus self-destructed from the consciousness of its own insignificance in the face of the "Slavic virus".

[icelord]

From nonsense, what are we smoking?