Military Review

The siege of the Slavs in the VI-VII centuries

221

Siege technique of the Slavs



What siege technique, according to sources, was used by the Slavs?

Analysis of sources on polyorctic VI-VII centuries. shows that it, as a science, was based on combat experience and on a theory emphasized from studies of ancient authors (Kuchma V.V.).

The Slavs undoubtedly gained knowledge in this area from the Byzantines, which we wrote about in previous article on VO, and we know the specific circumstances of how this happened.

In a siege case, more than in other military craft, the most important factor in skill is practice.

In the conditions of the Early Medieval it was impossible to “write down” knowledge and use it as necessary, especially by the Slavs. Mastery was transferred from one specialist to another only in the process of professional activity. And the more troops participated in the sieges, the higher their knowledge of the construction of siege artillery, naturally, and vice versa. Therefore, the Slavs, first with the Avars, and then independently acquired this knowledge by participating in the battles, as we wrote above. We see a constant growth of mastery on the data of such a source as “Miracles of St. Dmitry Solunsky” (CDS).

Even if we take into account the fact that different tribes participated in the sieges of Thessalonica, possibly unrelated to each other, then at least in the XNUMXth century, one group of tribes who migrated to Greece and Macedonia, with the participation of the Slavs, subjects Avar, from Panonia, who, in turn, as we know, in the VII century. had experience of the war against the Romans in Italy in alliance with the Lombards.

Slavs used all the siege weapon, which was known during this period: stone throwers, rams - masonry guns, assault towers, turtles - equipment for undermining.

Stone throwers


Probably the most technically difficult to manufacture and execute were stone throwers.

In the late Roman period, this technique was called a scorpion or onager, as well as a stone-thrower and Procopius of Caesarea in the middle of the VI century. As shells were used kernels weighing from 3 to 80 kg, most often from 3 to 26 kg, which depended on the size of the guns.

The authors of the CDS denoted these tools among the Slavs as πετροβόλος, while they called the Greek stone-throwers πετραρία. If the first name was already found in Diodorus (I century BC), then the second term in the text of the CDS is used only when describing the technique of the Romans. Mauritius Stratig (beginning of the XNUMXth century) wrote that troops should have petrobols.

The same term is used in the Easter Chronicle, when describing the siege by the Avars and Slavs of Constantinople, and by Theophan the Byzantine, when describing the installation of defensive equipment on the same walls in 714. It is clear that these are guns with some differences in design.


Slavs at the stone-thrower. VII century Reconstruction of the author

It is possible that πετραρία was a smaller tool, since in the three listed sources it is used on the wall; the use of larger guns leads to the loosening of the wall, and perhaps there is simply no place to place it.

We cannot say that this weapon was more perfect, since the sources of this period, in particular, the Byzantine Anonymous of the XNUMXth century, describe a rather primitive technique that cannot be compared with antique samples, although we know the outstanding mechanics and geometers of this time.

Here is how the author of the VDS draws a situation with its application. The Greek, working on a stone-throwing machine, under the name πετραρία, wrote the name of St. Dmitry on stone and sent it against the Slavs. It is worth noting that he alone controls this weapon:

“As soon as the stone was launched, at the same time another was thrown from the barbarians to meet, surpassing it by more than three times. He met the first and was turned back, and both of them fell into the recess of the stone-thrower (πετροβόλου) of the barbarians and killed those who were there along with the manganarium. ”

But VDS describes the petrobola of the Slavs:

“They were quadrangular, wide at the base and tapering to the apex, on which there were very massive cylinders, bound at the edges with iron, to which logs were nailed, like beams of large crowbar, which had slings suspended from behind, and in the front - strong ropes with which pulling them all at once according to the signal downward, they launched slings. Soaring up [slings] continuously sent huge stones, so that the earth could not bear their blows, much less a human building. And they protected the quadrangular stone throwers with boards only on three sides, so that those inside were not wounded by arrows [sent] from the wall. "

Unfortunately, we have very few sources about the Slavs during the invasion of the Balkans, but it can be assumed that such weapons were often used during the migration period, especially in the 50th century, so it is difficult to agree with the conclusion that the Slavs were inept at using stonecutters during the siege (Aleksandrovich S.S.), which, however, is also refuted by the VDS, when it is indicated that XNUMX (!) Stone-throwers of the Slavs encountered a serious defense of the city:

"... [stones] sent to the wall did not do any harm to her because she was very strong and very strong."

Despite the constant hostilities in the Balkans, it can be assumed that the fortifications of the cities were maintained in good condition. During the reign of Justinian I (reign of 527-565) a huge number of cities and fortresses were strengthened in the Balkans. Not without reason, as we wrote above, the attackers tried to take cities on the move and switched to sieges if this did not succeed.

The walls of the fortifications were built from hewn stone blocks that were installed on the external and internal sides, the gaps were filled with stone fragments, garbage and filled with mortar. The leveling layer was constructed of bricks. Brick dimensions: thickness 5 cm, length 32-36 cm. Thus, the rows of stones alternately alternated with brickwork, which was fastened with lime mortar. The foundation was also constructed.

The walls at the base were thicker than at the top, in Constantinople the inner wall was 4,7 m at the base and at the top 4 m.

The towers were built as separate structures in order to have independent defense modules; communication between the lower and upper levels of the tower was excluded. The towers protruded from the wall at a distance of 5 to 10 m (Turnbull S.).

Siege towers


Another extremely complex structure that the Slavs used was a siege tower, or gelepol.

Gelepola is a tower with a drawbridge, built of wood. She moved on wheels. For protection, iron or raw skins were used, on the upper platform there were archers, an assault detachment, and there could be siege weapons. A detailed description of them can be found in Greek polyorgetics - specialists in sieges and defense of cities.

Of course, it was built in the framework of the existing trends in polyorgetics, and, of course, initially the Slavs learned about its construction from captured Byzantine mechanics, as we wrote above, but it seems that in the period of the XNUMXth century. Slavic tribes already acted independently. And at the end of the VII century. The author of the CDS writes about the engineering military structures of the Druhovite tribe during the siege of Thessalonica:

"... in short, it was something that none of our generation knew or had ever seen, and so far we have not been able to name most of them."
It is difficult to agree with the opinion that “to bring such a colossus to the walls was worth enormous efforts, which were often not justified.”

(Aleksandrovich S.S.)

If you do not even take into account the vicissitudes of fate, which are widespread in the war, then, it seems to me, it is worth considering the following factors.

The first, judging by the FDS and the Easter Chronicle: the besieged did not think so and took these towers very seriously.

Second: an accurate calculation of the height of the tower in relation to the fortifications was very important. Vegetius (V c.) Gives examples of problems and failures when the mobile tower (turres) does not correspond to the size of the main one (was lower or too high).


Siege tower. Author's drawing

Third: it was extremely difficult to build such towers, see, for example, the combined work of the polyorgetics Anonymous of the Byzantine (about the tenth century), where, by the way, he reports that the polyorquet Apollodorus came to the same conclusions when calculating the towers that and the mechanics of Dyad and Hari, who lived at different times. And the Slavs erected these structures without the mathematical knowledge that the Romance mechanics and geometers had.

So, during the siege of Thessaloniki around 620, the Slavs built huge towers that towered above the towers of the city, obviously, for the convenience of cleaning them from the defenders, strong armed young men were on the platforms. By the way, Mauritius Stratig, in such a case, recommended the construction of anti-towers.

Fourth: the use of these structures, it seems, as we wrote above, became quite familiar for the Slavs who occupied territories in Greece and Macedonia, otherwise how would they know how these machines were built when they were a curiosity even to the Thessaloniki Romans at the end VII century

Fifth: the practical need in conjunction with the psychological factor in this case is not in doubt.

Despite the fact that archeology practically does not provide us with data, we can talk about a fairly high level of woodworking among the Slavs.

So, along with half-dugouts, ground-based houses with underground pits were a fairly common type of housing. Among the few fortifications, the fortification in Volyn near the village stands out. Wintry, built of wood and having ground buildings, as well as the Khotomel settlement. Log houses had connections “in the paw” and “in the cloud”.

In the same Zimno, the remains of a woodworking lathe were found (Sedov V.V., Aulikh V.V.).

I repeat, at this stage in the development of production forces, the Slavs could quickly perceive structures made of wood. In the FSS, when describing siege weapons, their metal parts are also mentioned. We will write about the problems of metalworking among the Slavs in the next article.

Ram


A ram is also a tool that is often used by the Slavs during sieges. Which is natural due to its simplicity. The first mention, when the Slavs use it together with the Avars, refers to the 80s of the VI century, during the siege of Thessaloniki. Here is how the ram, or “ram,” describes Procopius of Caesarea, secretary of the great general Belisarius:

“Having built a kind of small quadrangular house, they pull on it from all sides and from above to make this machine lightweight for those moving it, and those inside it would be safe and, if possible, less likely to be hit by arrows and spears of enemies. Inside this structure, another log is hung across from above on freely moving chains, trying to attach it as much as possible in the middle of the structure. The edge of this log is made sharp and covered with thick iron, like the tip of arrows and spears, or they make this iron quadrangular, like an anvil. This car moves on four wheels attached to each column, and from the inside it is driven by at least fifty people. When this machine is pushed firmly against the wall, then, moving the log I mentioned, with the help of some device, they take it back, and then let it go, striking it with great force into the wall. With frequent blows, it can very easily in the place where it hits, rock and destroy the wall ... "


The siege of the Slavs in the VI-VII centuries

Ram. Fig. Kirsanova I.V. Source: Bannikov A.V. Roman army in the IV century (from Constantine to Theodosius). St. Petersburg, 2011.S. 125

Already at the end of the VI century. There is a message that the Slavs use a "ram" with an "iron forehead." At the same time, we saw that the Slavs at the beginning of the VII century. Together with the Lombards, they used rams (aries) during the capture of Mantua in Italy. We are talking about the Slavs who lived in Panonia, in the immediate vicinity or together with the Avars, and were those tribes who participated in the campaigns of the Avars in the Balkans and to Constantinople at the beginning of the XNUMXth century.

Further, at the beginning of the VII century., CDS reports that the Slavs use precisely complex, rolling "rams", "from huge trunks and well-rotating wheels."

Turtle


The next popular siege weapon mentioned by the Slavs was the “tortoise”. This building, under the cover of which the besiegers destroyed the city wall with the help of tools, among which were an ax, a crowbar, a pickaxe and a shovel - all traditional weapons of military craft.


Pickaxe of the Roman period. Karnuntum Museum. Bad Deutsch Altenburg. Vein. Austria. Author photo

The Slavs could also destroy the walls without covering the "turtles", under the protection of archers and shields.

The turtle, as Vegetius described it,

“Made of wooden beams and boards; so that it does not burn, it is covered with fresh skin. "

The Slavs covered turtles for extra protection

“Special twigs made of vines, willows, vineyards, and other flexible shrubs. Braids freely pounced on turtles, or perhaps they were hung over turtles on poles. ”

(Aleksandrovich S.S.)


Shovels of the Roman period. Karnuntum Museum. Bad Deutsch Altenburg. Vein. Austria. Author photo

Here is what the “turtles” made by the Slavs were:

“Turtles covered with freshly skinned skins of bulls and camels, because of their strength, could not be damaged, as you know, by throwing stones, fire or boiling tar because of the moisture of the skins, and even more so by the few people armed with spears as usual and bows. "

We also have information that the Slavs also used other devices. In their arsenal were fiery mixtures for setting fire to the walls and, of course, siege stairs. Among these weapons are mysterious "humpbacks." Either it's just stakes, or pointed sticks that drove into the wall to climb onto it. There is no exact information about them.

Odnodrevki


As part of this article, I would also like to mention the craft used in the siege. Traditionally, the Slavs used odnodrevki, but it can be assumed that at the end of the VII century. Slavic pirates in Greece could walk on captured ships. For the first time, the massive use of storming of odnodrevok was used during the siege of Thessaloniki in the early 20s. and Constantinople in 626, when the Slavs attacked the city from the north side of the Golden Horn. George Pisida writes:

"And there they are, like a fishing net
tied, scattered hollowed boats »
.

Slavs on odnodrevka. VII century Reconstruction of the author

A lot of controversy arises around where the Slavs built these boats. It can be assumed that during the siege of Constantinople, construction was carried out on the spot, since in these places there is still enough forest.

In the 70s of the VII century. during the siege of Thessalonica, the tribes of the Slavs settled in Greece and Macedonia used “connected” ships. Moreover, they are used, judging by the text, not only during the assault, but also when patrolling the water area in order to block the city. So, during the assault, the Slavs installed siege weapons on ships:

“And right away they approached the wall in rows along with the siege weapons, cars and fire prepared by them - some along the coast on connected [ships], others on land ...”

The Slavs used the same scheme, which was described by the polyorgetics Athenaeus Mechanic (≈ I century AD):

"... connect two large boats, install this car on them and drive it to the walls, usually in calm weather."



Sea siege guns with rocking bridges. Illustration of the XV-XVII century. to the Anonymous Byzantine (X century). Source: Greek polyorhetics. Flavius ​​Vegetius Renatus. St. Petersburg, 1996.S. 14, Fig. 26

Then he once again points out that during the unrest the boats move in different directions and the structure collapses, however, this happened during the siege of Constantinople, when unrest began in the Golden Horn.


Odnodrevka. GE. SPb. Russia. Author photo

So, we see that the Slavs used all the available equipment known in the sieges.

It is important to note that when we talk about siege technology, there is a lot of confusion when exploring it. This is due to the fact that it has not changed for a long time: from antiquity to (very approximately) the beginning of the Crusades. It is significant that around the dates of life of the most famous polyorgetics in the scientific literature there is a dispute in the ranges calculated over the centuries (A.V. Mishulin).

Slavic fortifications of the VI — VIII centuries.


At the end of the VI century. in different Slavic lands, fortifications begin to appear en masse. Of course, archeology does not provide us with information about the social needs for the creation of such fortifications, which causes controversy in the scientific community. A straightforward approach, when the fortification is viewed exclusively as a place of protection of the surrounding population from raids, is not always appropriate: in addition to external threats, it is necessary to take into account the specifics of the state of the studied society, and this is often completely impossible due to the state historical sources.

If for a long time the early Slavs were dominated by an open type of settlement with rare fortifications, then from the end of the VI century. many fortified places arise.

This, it seems to us, was connected with two points: the first was the formation of tribal unions, where the central settlement required protection primarily as a cult center and as a center of power and control.

The second - during the migration movement, especially in the western direction, there was a military need to create “military” outposts. The "military" were not put in quotation marks by chance, since these are primarily fortified tribal centers in a foreign environment, as is the case with the advance of the Western Slavs to the west of Europe or the northwest and northeast of Eastern Europe in the case of the resettlement of the eastern Slavs.

Ukrainian archaeologist B.A. Tymoshchuk developed a periodization of these fortified settlements, identifying three types: a refuge, an administrative center, and a sanctuary.

Community centers had wooden walls reinforced with clay slopes on the outside.

The most famous of these community centers-settlements is Zimno (a settlement on the Luga River, a tributary of Western Buka, Volyn, Ukraine).

The author of the excavations of Zimnovsky settlement VV Aulikh attributed its beginning to the end of the VI century, but later, when using clarifying data, the occurrence of Zimno was attributed to a date no earlier than the beginning of the VII century.

Timoshchuk B.A. writes about the Zimno fortifications:

“The basis of this line was a wooden wall made of horizontally laid logs sandwiched between pairs of pillars. On the outside, the defensive wall was reinforced, as shown by the profile of the shaft, with a loose clay slope, and on the inside, long houses directly adjacent to the wooden wall. During the fire that destroyed the defenses, the slope sprawled and blocked the burned-out logs, due to which their remains were relatively well preserved. Apparently, from the side of the steeper slope, a wooden defensive wall stood on the very edge of the site and was not strengthened by a loose clay slope (it was replaced by the natural slope of the cape). Therefore, the remains of the wall are not preserved here. An additionally fortified line was reinforced with hollows (low picket fence), which was arranged in the middle of a wide slope. This type of fortified line was also investigated in other ancient settlement-community centers. ”

There are eighteen such fortified hillforts or tribal centers on the territory of Carpathian Ukraine, lands belonging to the Duleb tribe.

Note that not all the territories of the Slavs of the XNUMXth century investigated with such care, so we can apply the retrospective method here.

Without removing the external threat from the agenda, the emergence of fortified settlements can be explained only by the beginning of the formation of new relations between kindred tribes and the struggle for power in tribal unions.

At the beginning of the VII century. fortifications appeared on the territory of the Sukovsko-Dziedzitsky (Lehitskaya) archaeological culture, an example of which is the strengthening of the Shelig city with an area of ​​5 hectares on the Slupyanka River, the left tributary of the Vistula. The fortification had a small earthen rampart, with stones and a wooden wall, and was located on the borders of the khanate (Alekseev S.V.).

To the east, on the territory of the Kolochin architectural culture (the forest part of the Dnieper to the Dnieper), there were a number of fortified settlements (VII century): permanent dwellings and shelters ((Kolochin-1, Kiseli, Cherkasovo, Nikodimovo, Vezhki, Bliznaki, Demidovka, Akatovo, Mogilev -Zmeevka) The fortifications were located on the cape, consisted of fortifications with ramparts and ditches (sometimes not one), had several defensive sites. As a reinforcement for the ramparts, wood was used. Defensive walls were also used along the edges and ridges. closed long houses with a courtyard (A. Oblomsky).


Reconstruction of the city and the settlement of Tornovo. VII – VIII centuries District of Kalau. Germany. Source: Die Slawen in Deutschland. Herausgegeben von J. Herrmann, Berlin. 1985.P. 175. Fig. 76


At the beginning of the VII century. Slavs, moving from the east to the Oder basin, in an alien, unknown environment, built their hillforts as powerful defensive structures.

Do not forget that a person of this period real and imaginary external forces seemed equivalent in terms of threats. And protection from them, including with the help of fortification, was the most important thing, especially in the process of migration to a hostile environment. Even considering the fact that, as historians suggest, these areas were quite deserted.

But for the first Slavic settlers, the threat came from the east. So the Tornovo hillfort (Spree river basin) perished, on the site of which new migrants erected new fortifications: a powerful annular shaft 10-14 m high, a ditch 5-8 m wide, structures from vertical pillars and log houses.

Sorbians (Serbs) migrating to this area, Antian tribal group, at the beginning of the XNUMXth century created powerful fortresses between the Elbe and Saale rivers: the structure was a dry masonry fortification with wooden structures on top.

Serbs (sorbians) used the skills borrowed from the Byzantines in the Danube border area during the construction of fortresses.

In the same period, the grad center of the Racing Union was built - Stargrad (now Oldenburg) and Veligrad (Mecklenburg). Features of its strengthening: an area of ​​2,5 square meters. km, the shaft is 7 m high, the base of the shaft was a wooden skeleton, covered by a "carapace" of blocks and planks. This design will soon become decisive in the construction of fortresses in these territories by the Slavs.


Reconstruction of the wall of Mecklenburg. VII century Wismar District. Source: Die Slawen in Deutschland. Herausgegeben von J. Herrmann, Berlin. 1985. P.1 96. Fig. 91

Obviously, the Vogastisburk fortress, in which the first Slavic king Samo was located and which was besieged by the Franks of Dagobert I (603-639), was in approximately the same construction in about 623. For details about this castle, see the article on "VO" "The first state of the Slavs".

It is important that such a powerful building was too tough for the Franks, the attempt to take the “castle” by starvation failed, because, apparently, the Slavs did not just sit in the fortification, but actively counterattack, which caused the besiegers who left the camp to flee.

We see that the fortifications of the early Slavs were distinctive and original, for their construction the Slavs had enough opportunities and forces.

In conclusion, it should be noted that not all Slavic tribes possessed siege skills, just like the level of “fortification” knowledge was different, and this undoubtedly came from a different level of tribal development. Obviously, those who worked more closely with more developed states went further.

But in general, all the Slavs were still at the tribal stage of development, in anticipation of early statehood.

Sources and literature:

Corpus scriptorum historiae Byzantinae. Theophanis chronographia. Ex recensione loan. Classeni VI Bonnae. MDCCCXXXIX.
Anonymous Byzantine. Instructions for polyorhetics. Translation by Starkhov M.N. Greek polyorhetics. Flavius ​​Vegetius Renatus. SPb., 1996.
Greek polyorhetics. Flavius ​​Vegetius Renatus. SPb., 1996.
About the strategy. Byzantine military treatise. Translation and comments Kuchma V.V. SPb., 2007.
Paul the Deacon "History of the Lombards". Translation by D.N. Rakov. M., 1970.
Procopius of Caesarea War with the Goths. Translation by S.P. Kondratiev. T.I. M., 1996.
Mauritius Strategicon. Translation and comments by V.V. Kuchma. SPb., 2003.
Flavius ​​Vegetius Renat Summary of military affairs. Translation and comments by S.P. Kondratiev. SPb., 1996.
Codex of ancient written news about the Slavs. T.II. M., 1995.
Alexandrovich S.S. The siege of the ancient Slavs in the VI-VII centuries. // Russian and Slavic studies: Sat. scientific articles. Vol. 1. The answer. Editor Yanovsky O.A. Minsk, 2004.
Alekseev S.V. The great resettlement of the Slavs 672-679 years. (Unknown Russia) M., 2015.
Aulikh V.V. Zimnivske ancient settlement - words of the memorial of VI-VII centuries not. in the Wolin. Kiev, 1972.
Bannikov A.V. The Roman army in the IV century (from Constantine to Theodosius). SPb., 2011.
Mishulin A.V. Greek polyorhetics about the art of siege of cities. // Greek polyorhetics. Flavius ​​Vegetius Renatus. SPb., 1996.
Nicholl D. Haldon J. Turnbull S. The Fall of Constantinople. M., 2008.
Oblomsky A.M. Kolochinskaya Culture // Early Slavic World. Archeology of the Slavs and their neighbors. Issue 17.M., 2016.
Sedov V.V. Slavs. Old Russian nationality. M., 2005.
Timoshchuk B.A. East Slavic community of the 1990th-XNUMXth centuries AD M., XNUMX.
Kuchma V.V. Military organization of the Byzantine Empire. SPb., 2001.


To be continued ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
How the ancient Slavs took the city
As the early Slavs actually fought
Was the squad among the early Slavs?
The clan and military organization of the early Slavs of the VI — VIII centuries
Slavs and the First Bulgarian Kingdom in the VII-VIII centuries
The origin of the Slavs
Slavs and the beginning of the Great Migration
Slavs and Avars in the VI century
Slavs on the Danube in the VI century
Slavs, Avars and Byzantium. The beginning of the VII century
Slavs on the threshold of statehood
The first state of the Slavs
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  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 April 24 2020 05: 03 New
    13
    Interesting Edward.

    It is completely incomprehensible with stone-throwers. It is no coincidence that you set an exclamation point to 50. If they didn’t bring any benefit, then it’s still entertainment to serve them.
    And what a stone store should be at hand.

    And about combustible means of attack. After all, the secrets of the "Greek fire" were not scattered. Or was there something else?

    And is there any harmony? If the siege towers were built so confidently, then in civilian life - did they live in dugouts? Or could a spacious city be built?

    Many questions may be. But the summary is wonderful.
    1. cost
      cost April 24 2020 06: 33 New
      16
      Roman author of the XNUMXst century BC e. Vitruvius in his treatise credits the invention of the ram "obsidio arma Thira " the Carthaginians during the siege of the Spanish city of Cadiz. The Carthaginians smashed a building with a log, which made Pefasman, the ship's master from Tire, suspect the suspension of a log. With the help of the invention, the Carthaginians destroyed the walls of Cadiz. This is where the name of this weapon came from."Thira" - siege weapon from Tire.
      Photo 1 Modern reconstruction of the ram of Pefasmen.

      Later, Kedras from Chalkedon placed the ram in a wooden structure on wheels (the so-called "turtle") and closed it for protection with the skins of bulls. Then Vitruvius passes immediately to the Macedonian king Philip II, who in 340 BC. e. applied rams during the siege of the Greek city of Byzantium. Athenaeum Mechanic, a contemporary of Vitruvius, repeats the same story.
      In fact, the Ram himself called the manual impact log with a chained tip - the Tyr log trabes ex thiran
      Photo 2 from the Soviet military encyclopedia trabes ex Thiran.

      From the Byzantines the ram came to the Avars, and from them to the Slavs.
      Such a tool as a ram for gates or walls was rarely used in reality, at least in Russia. The fact is that the Slavic fortifications of the pre-cannon era rarely had stone walls that could be broken by a ram. The main means of protection was a tall and thick earthen rampart, on top of which was a wooden wall. It’s pointless to ram the ram; it’s not possible to drag the ram along its steep slope to the wall. Moreover, there was a ditch in front of the shaft, empty or filled with water. Gates, you say? The bridge over the moat was made, if not suspended, then easily destroyed. When the city guard discovered the approaching enemy, she collapsed the bridge, and he could only bite his lips in frustration. Therefore, by the way, then a daring cavalry raid was considered the best means of assault, the purpose of which was to prevent the guard from breaking down the bridge in front of the gate.
      From ram in Russia there was no use.
      PS An interesting fact is that the Tyr ram owes its name to another wall-wielding weapon from another era - the mortar
      1. igordok
        igordok April 24 2020 11: 03 New
        +4
        From childhood memories, shots from the film "Vikings" 1958. Breaking the gate with a log.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 April 24 2020 12: 01 New
          +5
          I liked the film, I remember.

          But the tree showed uprooted. This is probably some kind of giant connected.

          And the gates were flimsy.
          However, what you will not sacrifice for the dynamics of the film.
        2. fuxila
          fuxila April 24 2020 16: 15 New
          +4
          There is another very interesting film about the Vikings - "The Lord of War", with Charlton Heston in the title role. There, the Vikings-Frisians storm the castle with a battering ram and a siege tower.
        3. fuxila
          fuxila April 24 2020 16: 18 New
          +4
          From childhood memories, shots from the film "Vikings" 1958. Breaking the gate with a log.

          There is another very interesting film about the Vikings - "The Lord of War", with Charlton Heston in the title role. There, the Vikings-Frisians storm the castle with a battering ram and a siege tower.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave April 24 2020 08: 33 New
      +7
      Sergei! hi
      After all, the secrets of the "Greek fire" were not scattered.
      Was he even this very secret? In my opinion, the whole "military secret" consisted in the ability of the Byzantines to fire a vessel with a flammable liquid and a burning wick attached to it to hell. That is, the possession of gravitational artillery. As soon as the peoples of the opposing Byzantium mastered the skills of building siege engines, the secret was dispelled like fog over the Neva. With the development of military affairs, the existence of a "secret" was simply forgotten because of its obviousness. But only
      in the 19th century, researchers created the legend of the Byzantine WMD. bully
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov April 24 2020 12: 13 New
        +4
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        the whole "military secret" consisted in the ability of the Byzantines to fire up a vessel with a flammable liquid and a burning wick tied to it to hell.

        In the Athenian military museum I photographed just such a thing called "Hand flamethrower used by the Byzantine fleet in the 7-12 centuries". There were no other signatures. I believe it was the act of modern reenactors. The photos are bad: it was dark and the glass.

        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 24 2020 12: 38 New
          +9
          Sergey welcome
          yes, alas, in Athens there are many modern reconstructions.
          I think that when in the NDS it is written about fiery means, it certainly does not refer to any "Greek fire", its use will officially take place at the end of the 7th century.
          we are talking about combustible material and pots with a fire mixture (asphalt, resin), darted both manually and by machines. Pots used since antiquity.
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov April 24 2020 12: 52 New
            +6
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            we are talking about combustible material and pots with a fire mixture (asphalt, resin)

            I think that throwing ordinary coals in the pot as well, the effect is normal. And now often fires in villages or horticultures from coal arise.
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              April 24 2020 12: 55 New
              +7
              I think that throwing ordinary coals in the pot as well, the effect is normal. And now often fires in villages or horticultures from coal arise.

              Yes, I agree !!!!
          2. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov April 24 2020 18: 07 New
            +2
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            and, alas, in Athens there are many modern reconstructions.

            The Byzantine Museum was especially "struck" in this respect: of the non-reconstructions, it had only air conditioners.
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 24 2020 19: 35 New
          +4
          In my opinion - "BFG-9000". Modern Greeks, in my opinion, are very fond of bragging about their history, having no involvement in it, without having.
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov April 24 2020 19: 46 New
            +4
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Modern Greeks, in my opinion, love to boast about their history, having no involvement in it.

            As one Greek said: "Greece is not a nation, it is a place."
            But the Greeks are related to the above history, because 50 percent of them are descendants of the Slavs who besieged them
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave April 24 2020 19: 57 New
              +1
              So are Russians, this is not a nation, this is a state of mind. One Russian said.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 23: 41 New
                +1
                One Russian said.

                Tolstoyevsky?
                1. Lexus
                  Lexus April 25 2020 02: 42 New
                  -1
                  Pushkinovsky and Lermontovsky wanted to say the same thing, but did not have time. Edward is a wonderful cycle bobbing. drinks
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave April 25 2020 08: 34 New
                  +2
                  Tolstoyevsky?
                  Bazhin.
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 23: 40 New
              +1
              But the Greeks are related to the above history, because 50 percent of them are descendants of the Slavs who besieged them

              The language is generally untranslatable. And the Greek is also a state of mind, it seems. laughing
              By the way, I will say sedition, but Greek women ... not a couple of ours! what I mean, a very big fan. Ouzo is pleasant. It is easy to drink, does not give much in the head. drinks Beer is so-so. The rest is hot, and not very cheap. And the main attractions are churches. And the Greek lazy way of life really pissed me off - I can't do that, I need to move. There are no Turks on them! soldier
            3. Operator
              Operator April 24 2020 23: 51 New
              0
              The descendants of the Ants in the composition of modern residents of the historical region of Marea (the former principality of Morea) on the Peloponnese peninsula make up about 10%, and even less in the composition of the inhabitants of Greece.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master April 24 2020 12: 34 New
        +5
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Was he the secret?

        Thinking over this issue, I put forward the following hypothesis for myself.
        Many had the ability to create flammable liquids. Pour this into a jug, clog it, add a burning wick ... and the question remains only in the means of delivering this miracle to the enemy.
        However, the delivery vehicles - stone throwers and so on - were also not something exclusive. Maybe for some they were better, for someone worse, but for many, if not all.
        It seems to me that the uniqueness and exclusivity of the "Greek fire" could lie in the fact that the Greeks were able to create a flammable liquid that significantly expands in volume during combustion, or some kind of pneumatic-type mechanism that could throw a burning liquid into an opponent. That is, "Greek fire" was the prototype of a flamethrower, not a bomb, and this is its uniqueness.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 April 24 2020 13: 08 New
          +5
          And his ability to burn on the surface of the sea? Is oil the basis?
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master April 24 2020 13: 34 New
            +4
            In my opinion, most flammable liquids are lighter than water ... But how they made it fly out into the enemy in the form of fire ... This is a mystery. There are many ways, but which one was used by the Greeks ... maybe we will find out when.
          2. Fat
            Fat April 24 2020 18: 05 New
            +4
            Quote: Korsar4
            And his ability to burn on the surface of the sea? Is oil the basis?

            Hardly. Rather, a mixture of vegetable oils and bitumen, maybe some kind of catalyst. This is probably why they speak of the exceptionality of the Greek fire ...
            I am very inclined to the fact that bitumen was very affordable. It diverges perfectly in oil (if heated).
            Stupidly. If you mix bitumen with oil, a refractory mixture is already obtained ... Sticky and burning on the surface of the water.
            And you .... In the discussion ... Well, what are the pots with the coals? Where can I get them, enough coal on a small boat ... So that it floats and does not go out?
            Excuse me, Corsair. This is not for you, but for the train of thoughts in the discussion ....
            1. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov April 24 2020 19: 06 New
              +3
              Quote: Thick
              And you .... In the discussion ... Well, what are the pots with the coals? Where can I get them, enough coal on a small boat ... So that it floats and does not go out?

              It was not about ships, but about the siege of the fortress.
              1. Fat
                Fat 12 August 2020 22: 56 New
                0
                In a complex ... Common sense. And the stories that we have.
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 24 2020 19: 37 New
              +3
              Yes, everything is fine. Nothing personal.

              You grab from a bunch of hypotheses what you can believe.
            3. Rivares
              Rivares 25 June 2020 17: 20 New
              0
              In my opinion, everything is much simpler. First, they throw it with pots with the mixture, then after the set fire to arrows ...
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 24 2020 19: 55 New
          +4
          It seems to me that the uniqueness and exclusivity of the "Greek fire" could lie in the fact that the Greeks were able to create a flammable liquid that significantly expands in volume during combustion, or some kind of pneumatic-type mechanism that could throw a burning liquid into an opponent. That is, "Greek fire" was the prototype of a flamethrower, not a bomb, and this is its uniqueness.
          Nifiga like that, Michael! On occasion, I am ready to demonstrate the failure of both the first assumption and the second.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master April 24 2020 20: 35 New
            +1
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            ready to demonstrate

            It sounds threatening ... smile
            Can I be warned when the chance comes? I'll think about whether to leave the house ... smile
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave April 24 2020 20: 52 New
              +4
              The Lord is with you, Michael! Have I ever threatened anyone on this resource except Venya? And that only psychiatrists!
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master April 24 2020 21: 05 New
                +4
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                by psychiatrists

                smile
                But seriously, I misunderstood how to demonstrate and why only on occasion. Therefore, fantasy is already raging, drawing pictures of general chaos and destruction, and in the center of everything, towering over the world on a pile of broken bricks, Anton stands and looks around at his handiwork with a menacing look, loudly asking "Now everyone understands everything?"
                In this case, I’m better at home ... smile
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 April 24 2020 21: 13 New
                  +4
                  And bring the wall thickness to 4 meters?

                  “The pig’s house must be a fortress!” (with).
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave April 24 2020 21: 27 New
                  +4
                  and in the center of everything, towering over the world on a pile of broken bricks, Anton stands and looks around the work of his own hands with a menacing look, loudly asking, "Now everyone understands everything?"
                  That would be perfect! good
                  But in this case, I would humble my pride (well, you know, our galaxy is too boring a place for monsters like me), and would limit the experiment to your car (mind you, not an apartment, for my humanity, to individual representatives human race, knows no boundaries). tongue
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 April 24 2020 22: 50 New
                    +4
                    “Tonight I blew three tires,
                    It’s easier - without sleeping pills! ” (with).
                  2. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 23: 51 New
                    +5
                    But in this case, I would humble my pride

                    You know, Anton .. I would reconcile with each of you .. Just because I'm afraid to quarrel with any of you. A good company is worth its weight in gold. hi
                    In this case, I’m better at home ...

                    Michael is already at home. The president forbade him to leave. Therefore, he will admire the pile of skulls with Anton standing above from the window. fellow
                    And bring the wall thickness to 4 meters?

                    This will also have to call Anton. Anton - can ...
                    and limit the experiment to your car

                    The kindest man! laughing Almost Mark Krysoboi, but he is, nevertheless, more humane! tongue
    3. Bar1
      Bar1 April 24 2020 09: 42 New
      -6
      about Tsar Grad / Constantinople / Istanbul. The toponymy of this place has interesting names.
      -Istanbul-Istanbul -Stan policy, i.e. City of Stan / Stavische.
      -SiDaris River
      -Galipoli
      -Galatia
      -Calcedonia -city
      -SiDaris river
      -Sea White



      A brilliant port is a port i.e. entrance / exit, Tsar-Grad has access to the sea, on the left is Black, on the right is White.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master April 24 2020 12: 36 New
        +3
        "Polis" - can you tell me the word from which language? And often you come across place names consisting of words from different languages?
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 April 24 2020 13: 54 New
          -3
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Policy "- can you tell me a word from which language? And often you come across geographical names consisting of words from different languages


          different languages, even if it’s not yours, yours always said there is neither Russian nor German, but there is one Indo-European, and everything is common there.
          Language is such a thing when you need a common, and when you do not need a common.
          For example, I read on St. Sophia a mosaic "Zoya neuse vestati augusta. Two Russian words are one not Russian, how to understand this?"
          Or Gaul or Holland, or Portugal, or Galicia, Latgale, Galich, like different peoples, cities, but the form and meaning are the same and each word has its own etymology, have already tried.
          I think all this philology / linguistics is a specially designed matrix for understanding in exactly one direction. In the direction of OI.
          As for Greece itself, Greece is a very strange formation.
          The Greeks have no relatives, but there is "Great Greece" in Italy, but in the past, the Sybarites lived there very merrily, then apparently moved to the Slavic Balkans.
          On some maps there are neither Sparta, nor Athens, Crete Kandia, Lesvos Metelin,
          and TriPoli, here, just in Russian Three POLICY.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master April 24 2020 14: 13 New
            +6
            Quote: Bar1
            Language is such a thing when you need a common, and when you do not need a common.

            That's exactly what I wanted to say. laughing
            When you need - general, when not - not general. It is necessary - we will change the consonants in places, we must replace all the vowels in the word, it must be so - it will be so, it is necessary that way - it will be that way.
            This, you know, is very funny ... I mean, you somehow managed to get together and get along at the same time enchanting stupidity, manic activity and amazing self-confidence in your own genius.
            I am almost sure that with such a set of qualities, you are absolutely happy in life. laughing
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 April 24 2020 14: 28 New
              0
              Quote: Trilobite Master
              When you need - general, when not - not general.

              no, no, again you didn’t understand anything, I wrote about modern linguistics, I voiced this position about it. As for you, self-restraint, self-isolation in the trend can be said to the level of OI completely destroyed your already meager perception of the world, you the frog flew, but saw from the whole trip, only the sky and again into the swamp. This is exactly your place.
    4. Edward Vashchenko
      April 24 2020 11: 25 New
      +9
      Dear Sergey,
      Some answers to your questions:
      It is completely incomprehensible with stone-throwers. It is no coincidence that you set an exclamation point to 50. If they didn’t bring any benefit, then it’s still entertainment to serve them.
      And what a stone store should be at hand.

      The walls of Solnik are still powerful, and therefore they built so many stone-throwers, as it seems to me, then, we do not know about their size.
      As I wrote, anything happens in a war: they thought it would help, but it did not work out. This often happens, and the Nazis thought that they would defeat the USSR to the smithereens.
      About the rest, a little later.
      1. Caretaker
        Caretaker April 24 2020 12: 17 New
        +1
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        The walls of Solnik are powerful now,

        It is known what were the walls of Solonik in the XNUMXth century?
        The walls of the modern Novgorod Kremlin differ from the fortifications of the XIV century.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 24 2020 12: 35 New
          +5
          I already wrote about the thickness of the walls - it is difficult to judge this, the wall of Constantinople, judging by the studies, has not changed much, its line is yes, for example, of the Golden Ron.
          Archaeologists do not report significant restructuring, we can only assume that the design of the late Roman geometers was so highly developed that its structure lasted for many centuries (about ten). A good example, Hagia Sophia - a unique building, was strengthened, later by the conforces after the earthquake, it seems in the 7th century, and that's it, it still stands!
          And also, during the Crusades, their designs migrated to Western Europe, in England, castles built according to the "Greek" model of a lot7
          The walls of the Novgorod Kremlin, yes, and the Moscow look compared to the fence in Constantinople, and Thessaloniki will be higher. By the way, the Roman wall, renovated during the sieges of the 6th century, will also be more powerful (by sight), although our defenses were already used when Constantinople became Istanbul and was not particularly threatened.
          1. Caretaker
            Caretaker April 24 2020 13: 27 New
            0
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            I already wrote about the thickness of the walls - it is difficult to judge this, the wall of Constantinople, judging by the studies, has not changed much, its line is yes, for example, in the Golden Horn.

            The line at the Golden Horn has changed, but the design has remained unchanged? I doubt it.
            The walls of fortresses and other stone buildings are often built using old foundations, but of different sizes and designs.
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            Archaeologists do not report significant restructuring, we can only assume that the design of the late Roman geometers was so highly developed that its structure lasted for many centuries (about ten).
            The design of the wall depends on the development of siege / assault methods.
            The walls and towers of all existing fortresses have changed in connection with the development of artillery. I would venture to suggest that Istanbul (Constantinople) and Thessaloniki were no exception.
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            A good example, Hagia Sophia - a unique building, was strengthened, later by the conforces after the earthquake, it seems in the 7th century, and that's it, it still stands!

            Unsuccessful example, Sofia was not rebuilt, probably.
            Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
            The walls of the Novgorod Kremlin ...

            A common misconception, as only part of the wall is visible and the moat is now smaller.
            The Novgorod Kremlin cited as an example the change in the construction of fortifications as a result of rebuilding, repairs, restorations from the 14th to the 20th century, and not at all for comparison whose towers are higher.
    5. Edward Vashchenko
      April 24 2020 12: 46 New
      +6
      And is there any harmony? If the siege towers were built so confidently, then in civilian life - did they live in dugouts? Or could a spacious city be built?

      The erection of buildings, I think, was strictly regulated by the mythological representations of the Slavs, nothing was done in this period just like that, from the word at all. On the territory of Macedonia, Greece, Dalmatia and Bulgaria, the Slavs settled in the countryside and quickly began to develop local types of housing, although the Bulgarians, for example, used half-dugouts in the 19th century.
      During this period, the Slavs and full-fledged wooden dwellings were erected, which I wrote about in this article.
      There were no large cities in this period, in principle, no one in Europe, but, for example, the same Slavs had open settlements. It seems to me, based on archaeological data, that their crowding was sharply less than in Byzantine cities. Just the settlements could not be located wide and far - this was contrary to defense.
      With respect,
      hi
      1. Fat
        Fat April 24 2020 18: 42 New
        0
        Fortifications and "open settlements" were quite combined. Fortifications in the center of the settlement and settlement around. Well, who in their right mind would let a tanner go somewhere other than the outskirts of the city? You can say there were several defensive lines ...
        Is not it so?
        What could be used in defense was used, the rest was destroyed ...
        Is not it so?
        Sincerely ...
  2. alma
    alma April 24 2020 06: 12 New
    +1
    I already recognize the author from the text hi
    1. cost
      cost April 24 2020 07: 00 New
      +9
      Good morning, Alex hi
      I already recognize the author from the text

      I, too, have both the text and the author's drawings.
      Always waiting for his article. Like
      1. alma
        alma April 24 2020 08: 34 New
        +1
        Good morning, Dmitry hi
  3. kalibr
    kalibr April 24 2020 06: 41 New
    10
    Very good stuff. Again, I read something somewhere, but in such a systematic and detailed way I read for the first time. Thanks Edward! And it’s also very good that the author knows how to draw!
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 24 2020 17: 31 New
      +4
      I join the comment of Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      Thanks Edward for the article and the pictures !!!
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 18: 14 New
        +2
        Thanks Edward for the article and the pictures !!!

        it was just that Cat had to be mentioned, and here he is - light in sight! Konstantin and I remembered you! drinks
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 April 24 2020 18: 34 New
          +2
          And disappeared ... just as suddenly! Here is Vlad! Swift! laughing lol laughing
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 19: 00 New
            +2
            And disappeared ... just as suddenly! Here is Vlad! Swift!

            like all self-respecting cats! Came when he needed, purred, got what he wanted, went on about his Kotov affairs! drinks
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 April 24 2020 19: 03 New
              +3
              An article appeared about the Foreign Legion! Come on? yes
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 23: 32 New
                +2
                An article appeared about the Foreign Legion! Come on?

                Tomorrow. Today I want to relax something ... recourse
  4. cost
    cost April 24 2020 06: 45 New
    +9
    The first use of siege equipment by proto-Slavic tribes (it is believed that these were antes) was noted already in the XNUMXth century AD. The Western Slavic tribes, having united with the Avars (the ancestors of the present Ossetians and some others), decided to rob Byzantium a little. And what? Everyday thing! ;-)
    Then the Slavs and Avars used primitive gravitational machines during the storming of Constantinople - much later this type was called by the French word "perrier", or sphendon. In the XNUMXth century, the Slavs, in alliance with the Bulgarians, repeated this successful experience. It should be noted that while they were not yet Russians, i.e. East Slavs. These were the Western Slavs, the ancestors of the Balkans, Poles and Czechs.

    It was in Russia that the first (in the surviving chronicles) mention of "vice" dates back to 1184 A.D. This thing was tension type and was a giant crossbow, which was made for the Polovtsians (!) By an unknown Arab engineer. The Polovtsi tried to shoot it at the Russian army, but it ended sadly: the Russians launched a counterattack and this "scorpion" was quickly recaptured. What they did to him is unknown.
    1. Caretaker
      Caretaker April 24 2020 08: 00 New
      +3
      The scorpion depicted in the picture cannot be used as intended.
      1. cost
        cost April 24 2020 08: 41 New
        +6
        I can’t argue with you, you know better. I personally have not seen him alive, only in pictures. But if this one does not suit you, let's take another picture from the Soviet military encyclopedia. - M .: Military Publishing House, 1976-1980
        1. Caretaker
          Caretaker April 24 2020 09: 10 New
          +2
          Quote: Rich
          I can’t argue with you, I haven’t seen him alive, only in pictures. But if this one does not suit you, let's take another picture from the Soviet military encyclopedia.

          Interesting, but not too realistic.
          If we accept the version that the "scorpion" is a large crossbow, then the same problems will need to be solved.
          Durable bow or other device,
          strong bowstring
          tension mechanism
          lock and trigger
          guide rail
          strong base with the ability to change the direction of aiming and elevation angle.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka April 24 2020 17: 39 New
            +4
            Scorpio, not a big crossbow, but a small ballista!
            Differences in Virgil. Although, according to his descriptions, the first digestible thing happened to the French only during the reign of Napoleon III! And then not the first time! Many things, such as triera repeat remoteness only in the last century.
            So the engineering experience of ancient Hellas and late Rome is truly admired !!!
            1. Caretaker
              Caretaker April 24 2020 18: 34 New
              +1
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Scorpio, not a big crossbow, but a small ballista!

              In order not to start a discussion about the terms used by Virgil, I will formulate as follows - "the devices shown in 2 pictures that were published by Rich (Dmitry)".
              Do you have any additions to the comments on the pictures?
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka April 24 2020 21: 15 New
                +3
                According to Virgil. Scorpio was a reduced ballistic torsion type. That is, the accumulation of energy occurred due to the twisting of veins of animal origin.
                In the home library, I have an SVE there, fig. 2 Rich confined to a ballista.
                Regards, Vlad!
                1. Caretaker
                  Caretaker April 24 2020 22: 46 New
                  +1
                  In both figures, the devices do not meet at least some of the listed requirements, i.e. will be inoperative.
                  ... then the problems will need to be solved the same.
                  Durable bow or other device,
                  strong bowstring
                  tension mechanism
                  lock and trigger
                  guide rail
                  strong base with the ability to change the direction of aiming and elevation angle.

                  What will be the additions or objections?
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 05: 00 New
                    +2
                    The second drawing is a French replica of the middle of the century before last and it shot according to historical literature!
                    Regards, Vlad!
                    1. Caretaker
                      Caretaker April 25 2020 08: 15 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                      The second drawing is a French replica of the middle of the century before last and it shot according to historical literature!

                      What does it have to do with it, we are discussing the image in the figure.
                      If an artist depicts something with a barrel and calls it AK, then this does not mean that IT will shoot. The artist sees so.
                      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 09: 43 New
                        +3
                        According to the commentary on the SVE, it was a workable torsion ballista made at the court of Napoleon III.
                      2. Caretaker
                        Caretaker April 25 2020 10: 53 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                        According to the commentary on the SVE, it was a workable torsion ballista made at the court of Napoleon III.

                        Again you are not talking about that. The illustration is not a photograph, but a vision of the artist.
                        We are discussing the image, not the principle of action.
                      3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 20: 40 New
                        +1
                        Yes, in the middle of the year before last there was no such thing as a camera!
                        But if my memory serves me right, all Bonaparte 3 toys are stored in the Army Museum in Paris!
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave April 25 2020 22: 17 New
                        +1
                        Actually it was. If we are talking about the 19th century.
                      5. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka April 26 2020 06: 14 New
                        +1
                        Yes Anton. You are right, I was mistaken!
                        Why Napoleon 3, did not photograph the replicas of ancient Roman throwing machines made by his order, I do not know. I propose to ask his spirit! winked
  • cost
    cost April 24 2020 06: 50 New
    +8
    In the future, the chronicles mention "vices" quite often, but the descriptions of the technology used are sparse. But it is known that, for example, when the prince of Polotsk Vladimir undertook to fight the Teutonic Order in 1206, during the siege of the Teutonic castle Golm, the Russians used a machine, most likely of the gravitational type. Surely the same sphendon. The case ended with a curiosity: the Slavs had made a "catapult", but they did not know how to shoot from it. As a result, the stones flew to the wrong place - to the Russian camp. You can imagine how the Germans were laughing on the walls ...
    Sfendon, or Perry - This is the simplest propelling device of the gravitational type. It looks like this:

    At the long end there is a sling, and at the short end there is an attachment for several ropes. A shell was laid in the sling, and the so-called "stretch" people. The construction required, depending on the size, from 3 to 12 people "stretched", and the stones were thrown relatively close - a few tens, at most - a hundred meters. But in the sling it was possible to lay, for example, dead animals or a pot with burning coals and rags soaked in oil ...
    It is these tools that most often appear in Russian chronicles under the name "vices". It was from such installations, according to legends, that the Mongols shot the detachment of Evpatiy Kolovrat. And to believe them or not to believe is everyone's personal business))
    In the future, the system was equipped with a counterweight, and it turned out to be a tri-bucket - more powerful and efficient, although categorically inconvenient to maintain.
    Gravity machines could break through wooden walls with stones, although they could not do anything with earthen ramparts. Under them, as before, under a hail of arrows, the infantry had to climb. In the pre-Mongol period and during the "yoke" vices in Russia were used quite often, mainly in internecine wars. But the classic, in our opinion, torsion-type catapults were very rare, in my opinion, were not met at all.
    1. Caretaker
      Caretaker April 24 2020 08: 14 New
      +6
      Give your comments describing heavy weapons almost like articles and application examples, but the illustrations for the last two comments have not been chosen very well. It seems that the artist did not hold any tools except brushes and pencils in his hands, but at the same time the shadows were drawn professionally.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave April 24 2020 08: 03 New
    +8
    Thanks Edward!
    it can be assumed that the fortifications of the cities were maintained in good condition.
    Let me doubt it. Judging by the following:
    The walls of the fortifications were built from hewn stone blocks that were installed on the external and internal sides, the gaps were filled with stone fragments, garbage and filled with mortar. The leveling layer was constructed of bricks. Brick dimensions: thickness 5 cm, length 32-36 cm. Thus, the rows of stones alternately alternated with brickwork, which was fastened with lime mortar. The foundation was also constructed. , limestone blocks underwent minimal processing, as a result of which they had different shapes and sizes. This was leveled with leveling layers of bricks. However, the use of dissimilar materials led to a weakening of the supporting structure (when the lower leveling layer was destroyed, the entire section of the wall "floated"). All this suggests a kind of "emergency" in the construction of such structures.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 24 2020 10: 26 New
      +8
      Anton,
      good day,
      Thanks - Alaverdi.
      All this suggests a kind of "emergency" in the construction of such structures.

      Quite rightly, in Thessallonics they did just that, as I wrote in the previous article.
      Materials were not always enough, judging by the Cistern (Yeribatan) in Constantinople, for example, they used what went hand in hand.
    2. Catfish
      Catfish April 24 2020 11: 13 New
      +2
      All this suggests a kind of "emergency" in the construction of such structures.

      Hi, hello. hi But they did not have the knowledge that you have. smile
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 11: 37 New
        +4
        But they did not have the knowledge that you have.

        they didn’t have tools like his and a punch ... laughing By the way, it would be interesting if Anton wrote anything for construction equipment or technologies. wink
        Good article, I bow to Edward! hi
        1. Catfish
          Catfish April 24 2020 11: 45 New
          +2
          ... if Anton wrote anything for construction machinery or technology.

          I agree, it would be interesting, but only in the military-fortification spirit. smile
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 11: 52 New
            +3
            I agree, it would be interesting, but only in the military-fortification spirit.

            He can write for palaces and estates. yes He just doesn’t want to, because he is lazy! (this is not an insult, I’m trying to inspire Anton to write, finally!) drinks
            1. Catfish
              Catfish April 24 2020 12: 04 New
              +3
              He just doesn’t want to, because he is lazy!

              As I understand it !!! fellow
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 12: 06 New
                +3
                As I understand it !!!

                I understand, I put one more plus on my list of lazy people. Now there are three of us - you, he and me. soldier
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish April 24 2020 12: 08 New
                  +2
                  So what it was all about, it's time to think for three, an old Russian custom. laughing drinks
                  1. Lexus
                    Lexus April 25 2020 02: 56 New
                    +2
                    The Russian soul has no boundaries! And the "troika" is just "satisfactory". You should always strive for the best. Because I'm with you! laughing drinks
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish April 25 2020 14: 55 New
                      +1
                      A good person in the company is always welcome. Join us! drinks
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 24 2020 13: 10 New
        +4
        They had everything. Nefig gaster to hire a construction site! "Pakalotnika, ma!"
        1. Catfish
          Catfish April 24 2020 13: 41 New
          +2
          "Steapan didn’t take the chisel? Ghani lyabastra, erythy apitite!" wassat
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka April 24 2020 17: 51 New
            +7
            Quote: Sea Cat
            "Steapan didn’t take the chisel? Ghani lyabastra, erythy apitite!" wassat

            Haha puncher, if the tube is made of wood, sand and eternity !!! The wristwatch at that time was dumb! So from here to sunset.
            I don’t know what is better than wooden walls or stone with an internal boot. The Tatras of Ryazan with its wooden walls took a week. The truth was winter. Vladimir did not last even three days! However, like white stone Kiev and Chernihiv. Although the hill and the Kremenitsa with stone walls were never taken!
            Regards, Vlad!
            1. Catfish
              Catfish April 24 2020 17: 53 New
              +5
              I am proud of Ryazan! Know ours! Thank you Vlad! drinks
              1. Lexus
                Lexus April 25 2020 03: 07 New
                +6
                Cosopusia foreve! Even Evpatiy and Avdotya did not fail. Yesterday, out of respect for the Author (Mikhail), I did not disappoint the "proud Bulgarin", Alibababek. soldier drinks
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave April 24 2020 18: 01 New
              +4
              and eternity !!!
              Agasfer also thought so, until he got caught.
            3. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 18: 17 New
              +4
              What is better than wooden walls

              Vladislav, colleagues, enlighten me!
              As far as I understand, the walls in the ancient Russian cities were in the form of a wooden log house filled with soil inside? how ryazha? Correctly? hi It's just that in all the pictures we see wooden walls - and what is inside of them?
              1. Caretaker
                Caretaker April 24 2020 18: 56 New
                +3
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                As far as I understand, the walls in the ancient Russian cities were in the form of a wooden log house filled with soil inside?

                Not always wooden, there were also stone ones with backing. Type in the search "Lyubshanskaya fortress".
                As an option, there were shafts reinforced with crib, with log cabins or a picket fence along the ridge.
                One of the options is shown in the illustration "Reconstruction of the Mecklenburg Wall".
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 19: 05 New
                  +3
                  Not always wooden

                  Leonid, I’m interested in the question precisely on the wooden old Russian walls, on the log cabins. Have they been covered with soil inside? request
                  About the stone more or less understandable - Koporye and Yam-Kingisepp are examples of this - they built it right away in stone. drinks
                  https://topwar.ru/119690-krepost-yam-gorod-kingisepp.html
                  As an option, there were shafts reinforced with crib, with log cabins or a picket fence along the ridge.

                  perhaps these survived the longest - in the 18th century they built it, EMNIP. The inside of the shaft was reinforced.
                  1. Caretaker
                    Caretaker April 24 2020 19: 35 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Pan Kohanku
                    Not always wooden
                    Leonid, I’m interested in the question on the old wooden walls of Russia, ... request
                    About the stone more or less understandable - Koporye and Yam-Kingisepp are examples of this - they built it right away in stone. ...
                    As an option, there were shafts reinforced with crib, with log cabins or a picket fence along the ridge.
                    perhaps these survived the longest - in the 18th century they built it, EMNIP. The inside of the shaft was reinforced.
                    Lyubshan fortress is 500 years older than Koporskaya.

                    Edward's article describes one of the options.
                    In the same period, the grad center of the Racing Union was built - Stargrad (now Oldenburg) and Veligrad (Mecklenburg). Features of its strengthening: an area of ​​2,5 square meters. km, the shaft is 7 m high, the base of the shaft was a wooden skeleton, covered by a "carapace" of blocks and planks. This design will soon become decisive in the construction of fortresses in these territories by the Slavs.
                    "Reconstruction of the Mecklenburg wall. VII century. Wismar area. Source: Die Slawen in Deutschland. Herausgegeben von J. Herrmann, Berlin. 1985. p.1 96. Fig. 91"
                    The illustration shows cells made of boards (!). Only modern Germans could think of this. Probably, they assumed the use of a planed board, "walking like this".
                    The boards will rot faster than the logs, and if you lay out the horizontal flooring inside, then when the soil subsides, voids form under the boards. What, in their opinion, is better than boards than logs, it is not clear?
                  2. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master April 24 2020 20: 45 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Pane Kohanku
                    Koporye and Yam-Kingisepp are examples of this - they built it right away in stone

                    In the northwest, almost everything was built in stone at once. Just because our limestone (rubble stone) is very convenient for these purposes - it lies in layers, broke how many any size and thickness are needed and how to collect anything from children's cubes. smile
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 23: 27 New
                      +3
                      Just because our limestone (rubble stone) is very convenient for these purposes - it lies in layers

                      yes, it was. I'm interested in the internal filling of the log cabins. First they cut the Novgorod Kremlin from log cabins. Written - Filled with a cultural layer. What is it? Fifth grade waste? request
                      1. Caretaker
                        Caretaker April 25 2020 08: 34 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Pane Kohanku
                        I'm interested in the internal filling of the log cabins. First they cut the Novgorod Kremlin from log cabins. Written - Filled with a cultural layer. What is it? Fifth grade waste?

                        Right! The first 400 years, the Novgorodians did not spend on stone walls. We need to figure out why.
                        The log buildings have not survived, and their remains could have been filled with a "cultural layer" after the next reconstruction and were perceived as soil. The question remains open.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 24 2020 17: 57 New
            +4
            "-The solution was not brought to the construction site!
            - "A fish"!!!"
            1. Catfish
              Catfish April 24 2020 17: 59 New
              +4
              "Brick bar, mortar yok - dried up, then." request
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave April 24 2020 18: 03 New
                +4
                "Self-tapping screws are bad nails, and the slots on the head prevent the hammer from sliding."
                1. Lexus
                  Lexus April 25 2020 03: 12 New
                  +3
                  Self-tapping screws are bad nails

                  Anton, because they throw them all sorts of bastards right on the road, and I, damn it, pick them up with their wheels and do not let the tire technicians put their teeth on the shelf. wink
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave April 25 2020 07: 57 New
                    +3
                    Alexey! hi
                    You would have sweared so much on nails, just self-tapping screws prevail now, because:
                    "A self-tapping screw driven into a hammer holds better than a nail twisted with a screwdriver." laughing
              2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka April 24 2020 18: 04 New
                +3
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                and eternity !!!
                Agasfer also thought so, until he got caught.

                Quote: 3x3zsave
                "-The solution was not brought to the construction site!
                - "A fish"!!!"

                Quote: Sea Cat
                "Brick bar, mortar yok - dried up, then." request

                The brick itself is fragile, but in the wall ..... try picking it out!
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish April 24 2020 18: 09 New
                  +3
                  I recalled at the grocery store:
                  - Do you have e-zum?
                  - Nope.
                  - Do you eat x-bread with i-raisins?
                  -- There is.
                  - So t-you nak-to-pick ... yes
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave April 24 2020 18: 31 New
                    +2
                    "Have you tried the local kefir?" (FROM)
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish April 24 2020 19: 47 New
                      +3
                      "- Have you tried to get drunk with kefir?
                      - Do not hesitate. "(C)
                      1. Lexus
                        Lexus April 25 2020 03: 15 New
                        +2
                        Kostya, I deprived myself of sleep the night before last, watching "Sailor Chizhik." I remembered you. hi drinks
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish April 25 2020 14: 54 New
                        +1
                        Thanks, of course, but didn’t catch the connection. Sevastopol? drinks
                      3. Lexus
                        Lexus April 25 2020 15: 03 New
                        +2
                        Yes, Sevastopol. drinks
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave April 24 2020 18: 36 New
              +1
              Corpulent? Stacked on clay dug in a garden? Yes nefig do!
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka April 24 2020 19: 55 New
                +1
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Corpulent? Stacked on clay dug in a garden? Yes nefig do!

                Antonishche decided to declare war on the stoves !!! laughing
                And if the same corpulent on a mortar with eggs?
                It's easier to crush a brick with a crowbar!
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave April 24 2020 20: 02 New
                  +1
                  Yes, I don’t care, even with eggs, even with stem cells! All one, the clay is poked out with a fingernail. And such stoves were ruined by my helpers with their feet. I only asked: "Save the tiles, barbarians!"
                  1. Lexus
                    Lexus April 25 2020 03: 18 New
                    +2
                    I don’t care, at least with eggs, even with stem cells!

                    Seed sorry! lol
                  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka April 25 2020 10: 20 New
                    +3
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    Yes, I don’t care, even with eggs, even with stem cells! All one, the clay is poked out with a fingernail. And such stoves were ruined by my helpers with their feet. I only asked: "Save the tiles, barbarians!"

                    Anton, last year helped to disassemble the old masonry of the church (built at the beginning of the last century) it was easier to break the Atig brick, than a bunch of masonry !!!
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 24 2020 08: 33 New
    11
    Slavs at the stone-thrower. VII century Reconstruction of the author
    When the question comes to the siege technique of antiquity, I find myself thinking that altistorics are sometimes very right in their claims to historians.
    To begin with, it would be necessary to calculate what dimensions this siege unit should have in order to be of some practical value, that is, to inform a projectile of certain sizes of kinetic energy sufficient to destroy the fortification of the time in question.
    Then calculate how much and what materials are needed for its construction and consider the technology of this construction with the help of primitive carpentry tools.
    Then consider options for the delivery of such materials to the place of siege, as well as providing this artillery with ammunition.
    The author is not going to cover these issues in the article?
    By the way, the unit in the figure of the author is inoperative. There is no source of energy.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim April 24 2020 08: 56 New
      +8
      I apologize for typos, wrote from a smartphone.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 11: 44 New
        +5
        I apologize for typos, wrote from a smartphone.

        late, we already threatened with a finger, and made a terrible face. stop
        "b Ammunition" - suggests the idea of ​​V.O.Shpakovsky to make bombs from you-know-what. The demoralization of the enemy is guaranteed. A splattered opponent drops his weapon and goes to wash. laughing C'mon, I am a friendly friend! Where am I without you, Viktor Nikolaevich! drinks
        By the way, as far as I remember, human waste was sometimes still used for military purposes ... what
        1. Undecim
          Undecim April 24 2020 12: 15 New
          +7
          By the way, as far as I remember, human waste was sometimes still used for military purposes ..
          I suggest you do a little experiment. Try any excrement you can throw at a distance of at least 50 meters so that they compactly reach the goal.
          I assure you, the impressions will be unforgettable and will force you to take a fresh look at the authenticity of some historical descriptions.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 12: 23 New
            +4
            I assure you, the impressions will be unforgettable and will force you to take a fresh look at the authenticity of some historical descriptions.

            Victor Nikolaevich, I'm a "jacket", not a techie like you. I definitely won't succeed! drinks And the neighbors in the yard will swear - suddenly he will fly to a kindergarten, or to a parking lot. laughing
            Hmm .. And if you collect first in a paper thin bag? .. what
            1. Undecim
              Undecim April 24 2020 12: 46 New
              +9
              Directly submitted a note on the website of the VII century.
              "After the army of the super-ethnos of the Rus threw the Roman city with shit, the enemy shamefully surrendered at the mercy of the victors!"
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 13: 07 New
                +5
                After the army of the superethnos of the Rus threw the Romance city, the enemy shamefully surrendered to the mercy of the winners!

                and also gave all the buns, geese and red-haired women! soldier so mustache and bulo! yes (don’t tell the creator of the superethnos only - he will write it! He will also join the great Scytho-Tartars to super-Russians) wink
                I'm not talking about super ethnos. In general, about the use of "the same". drinks
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim April 24 2020 13: 19 New
                  +6
                  In the literature there is mention of throwing feces in the besieged cities, but feces sick with bubonic plague. That is, nobody just rushed with shit.
        2. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov April 24 2020 12: 21 New
          +5
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          By the way, as far as I remember, human waste was sometimes still used for military purposes ...

          Good afternoon, Nicholas, how it was used: to pull bullets into each other with pots you yourself know what your favorite thing is during the siege. In addition to the excellent psychological effect, there is also quite practical significance: in crowded conditions it can very well cause diseases and epidemics.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 12: 28 New
            +5
            bulging at each other in pots you yourself know what is your favorite thing in a siege.

            Sergey, here I heard about the pots! And if still fragments of smeared shards are stuck - the very same. yes
            can cause illness and epidemics

            During the siege of Kafa (modern Theodosius), Khan Dzhanibek ordered to throw a "present" over the wall to the besieged Genoese - the corpse of a dead from the plague by means of a catapult. And the "black death" went from that place to Europe ... request
            1. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov April 24 2020 12: 33 New
              +4
              Quote: Pane Kohanku
              And if still fragments of smeared shards are stuck - the very thing

              And you can dip arrows in this, or at least stick it into the ground, then - blood poisoning or tetanus
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 12: 35 New
                +5
                And you can dip arrows in this, or at least stick it into the ground, then - blood poisoning or tetanus

                In 2015, Vyacheslav our Olegovich had an intricate article about the then subtleties of etiquette. wink By the way, very patriotic! hi
                https://topwar.ru/70541-o-chem-zabyl-andrey-makarevich.html
            2. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov April 24 2020 12: 34 New
              +5
              Quote: Pane Kohanku
              To throw a "present" to the besieged Genoese with the help of a catapult through the wall - the corpse of a deceased from the plague.

              That's interesting, they threw him in antiplague suits laughing
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 12: 39 New
                +6
                That's interesting, they threw him in antiplague suits

                From the latest Mongolian news: Khan Dzhanibek visits the catapult site in a plague bathrobe smeared with tar. laughing
                It seems that the Good Plague Doctor's costume is already an invention-consequence of the "black death"? That is, the rats have already sailed from Kafa to Genoa.

                You will see this in the dark - it will also cure you of constipation.belay And from hard drinking too. drinks
                1. Lexus
                  Lexus April 25 2020 03: 25 New
                  +1
                  You will see this in the dark - it will also cure you of constipation

                  Those days are long forgotten. The laxative now has different faces.
                  1. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku April 25 2020 13: 48 New
                    0
                    Those days are long forgotten. The laxative now has different faces.

                    Alexey, you can add Malyshev. That's for sure - fuflomycin! drinks
                    1. Lexus
                      Lexus April 25 2020 14: 03 New
                      -1
                      Oh yeah. There is only one issue about the benefits of circumcision. Already after this in the neck to drive a "written" rag. Or in a hospital for coronavirus treatment without PPE. Where, in fact, neither Malysheva, nor other pseudo-healers, naturally, are in no hurry. For food and a bed, in their opinion, others should risk their lives. hi drinks
                      1. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku April 26 2020 21: 47 New
                        0
                        no other pseudo-healers

                        the fact of the matter is that "pseudo" ... Charlatans earn money, and my friend, the Good Doctor, publishes letters to help normal medicine ... Well, you remember. The noblest man! drinks
              2. Caretaker
                Caretaker April 24 2020 13: 48 New
                +1
                Quote: Mihaylov
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                To throw a "present" to the besieged Genoese with the help of a catapult through the wall - the corpse of a deceased from the plague.

                That's interesting, they threw him in antiplague suits laughing

                They could have ordered the slaves, and then killed and burned along with the catapult. The life of slaves or warriors was cheap. They could even fill the moat with the killed.
          2. Fat
            Fat April 24 2020 21: 36 New
            +1
            Quote: Mihaylov
            Quote: Pane Kohanku
            By the way, as far as I remember, human waste was sometimes still used for military purposes ...

            Good afternoon, Nicholas, how it was used: to pull bullets into each other with pots you yourself know what your favorite thing is during the siege. In addition to the excellent psychological effect, there is also quite practical significance: in crowded conditions it can very well cause diseases and epidemics.

            Once I heard or read a very long time ago .... I don’t remember the source.
            Partizanskte craftsmen made a small mortar. As a shell - a bank from under the alternmann. Equipped with leaflets and thrown at a fairly considerable distance.
            When the punitive squad was squeezed in the swamps, the "artillerymen" equipped the jar with special contents and fired it several times ... In response, shelling from all types of weapons began. Later, through the underground, the partisans who had emerged from the encirclement learned that biological weapons had been used by their detachment ...
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave April 24 2020 09: 02 New
      +7
      I remembered the Soviet short film "V. Davydov and Goliath" and the means of delivering an electric motor through the factory fence.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 24 2020 10: 04 New
        +5
        One good man was enough for this. And then try a four-meter wall of breakdowns.
      2. Edward Vashchenko
        April 24 2020 11: 17 New
        +6
        Great short !!!
    3. Esoteric
      Esoteric April 24 2020 09: 43 New
      +4
      Here to take the same ram, like a turtle. A lot of malicious questions arise. Are the wheels small for such a structure? And the axles on which these wheels are mounted, how do they withstand such a serious load? And over rough terrain, how to carry it? And in the winter, in the fall, in the mud? And how many people are required to move this monster at least a dozen meters? It seems that everything was completely wrong. And the article is beautiful, very interesting.
    4. Edward Vashchenko
      April 24 2020 11: 20 New
      +5
      Greetings !!!!
      The author is not going to cover these issues in the article?

      Unfortunately, no, there is no time for sources and historiography to go through everything; I’ve shoveled 40 works for this article, I can’t see the links from the text laughing laughing
      And here is the counter question:
      By the way, the unit in the figure of the author is inoperative. There is no source of energy.
      I do not understand, explain pzhl?
      Yours faithfully, hi
      1. Undecim
        Undecim April 24 2020 12: 10 New
        +4
        What do you use as a torsion bar? The fact that the figure does not pull on the torsion bar.
        1. Edward Vashchenko
          April 24 2020 12: 55 New
          +5
          Regarding the armor, I recommend my two articles, here on the VO: "Protective equipment for the rider of the Byzantine army of the VI century"
          “Byzantine Army of the XNUMXth century The palace parts (continued) ”, without false modesty I will say that this is a unique study, where in a concentrated form on the basis of absolutely all (and this is important!) Sources of the VI century. - beginning of the XNUMXth century A complete classification of the Romance (Byzantine) equipment is given.
          Read it please.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim April 24 2020 13: 31 New
            +5
            I'm not talking about armor. I'm talking about a catapult, which for bailouts must have a source of energy storage, in this case - a torsion bar.
            And with such a hybrid design, this source must be super powerful, providing very high acceleration. Otherwise, your catapult will not work.
            1. Edward Vashchenko
              April 24 2020 13: 52 New
              +5
              Excuse me!!!
              I did not understand the smartphone
              Understood, I will consider !!!
    5. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master April 24 2020 13: 25 New
      +7
      Quote: Undecim
      the unit in the author's figure is inoperative.

      For several reasons.
      I will not say anything about the energy source, but the design itself is, in my opinion, an unviable hybrid of catapult and trebuchet.
      If we have a torsion bar machine with a short but powerful lever, this is one thing. The projectile is placed on the free end of the lever, the lever is released and, bumping into the locking log, sends the projectile to the target. Or past the target, the main thing - sends. Even if the shells are not too large, even after each shot it is necessary to change the lever, because after contact with the locking log its strength will be doubtful, but such a unit will be able to send a stone weighing a couple of tens of kilograms at a distance of fifty meters.
      If we are dealing with a trebuchet-like design, then the whole point is not in the sharpness and acceleration power, as with a torsion machine, but in its length. To actuate the sling, the lever must be longer than the length of the sling when folded. The longer the lever, and the longer the course of its free end, the farther the projectile will be sent, so the lever was forced to be placed at a great height. In short, Trebuchet all probably saw in the pictures.
      Now the main thing. smile
      The basis of the mechanics of the action of the sling is that the release of the projectile after untwisting the sling itself occurs due to the fact that the thrower releases one of its ends. With respect to the trebuchet, this moment is ensured by the sliding of one of the ends of the sling from the end of the lever, that is, one end of the sling is attached to the lever rigidly, and the second is just a free loop, which slides and releases the projectile at the right moment. The figure clearly shows that both ends of the sling are rigidly fixed to the free end of the lever.
      Such a thing will not shoot, even if you supply it with the proper amount of energy.
      By the way, according to the VDS description, the Slavs' stone-throwers were trebuets:
      They were quadrangular, wide at the base and tapering to the apex, on which there were very massive cylinders, tied around the edges with iron, to which logs were nailed, like beams of large crowbar, which had slings suspended from behind, and in front - strong ropes, with which, pulling them at once according to the signal downward, they launched slings.

      I myself could describe trebuchet in that way. smile
      1. Edward Vashchenko
        April 24 2020 13: 54 New
        +6
        Thanks for the comment, I will consider.
        Yours faithfully,
        hi
      2. Edward Vashchenko
        April 24 2020 14: 00 New
        +5
        Michael,
        I thought it’s not so simple here, the problem is in the name (Greek terms), the problem is in the description, that is, more questions than answers, it’s worth working on this.
        Anyway, thanks
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master April 24 2020 14: 16 New
          +5
          Thank you, Edward, for the material. hi
          And you can always count on me in terms of scolding! wink
          1. Edward Vashchenko
            April 24 2020 16: 56 New
            +4
            And you can always count on me in terms of scolding!

            A century to live - a century to learn!
  • Esoteric
    Esoteric April 24 2020 09: 26 New
    +3
    Many thanks to the author! Very interesting and informative. Everything related to ancient eras is of great interest. There is a sin associated with computer games. I don't play, but Total War, I can't help myself. Sometimes, as it is fashionable to say among young people, I "stick". smile
  • Caretaker
    Caretaker April 24 2020 09: 34 New
    +4
    Pickaxe of the Roman period. Karnuntum Museum. Bad Deutsch Altenburg. Vein. Austria. Author photo

    An interesting illustration, but similar to the modern reconstruction of a universal tool.
    Shovels of the Roman period. Karnuntum Museum. Bad Deutsch Altenburg. Vein. Austria. Author photo

    Thanks for the pictures of real instruments, but these are not shovels, but spades (hoes). In the bottom photo there is a spade with ext. pickaxe function.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 24 2020 11: 17 New
      +6
      Leonid,
      good afternoon. Valuable comments, I will consider.
      The attacks are real finds, the pickaxe is reconstruction, I have a photo from the original, but it doesn’t look that way, rust, etc. I took the reconstruction for presentation.
      In general, this museum is unique, I have not seen so much Roman equipment and weapons anywhere, although I was in almost all the key museums in the world on this subject. A year since I want to write an article about Karnunt, but it takes me some time.
      1. Caretaker
        Caretaker April 24 2020 11: 23 New
        +1
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        The attacks are real finds, the pickaxe is reconstruction, I have a photo from the original, but it doesn’t look that way, rust, etc. I took the reconstruction for presentation.

        It is possible to submit a photo of the original in a comment, if not difficult.
        In the article, it is advisable to present a photo of both the original and the reconstruction.
      2. kalibr
        kalibr April 24 2020 17: 37 New
        +1
        Quote: Eduard Vaschenko
        A year since I want to write an article about Karnunt, but it takes me some time.

        Ah ah ah!
  • Catfish
    Catfish April 24 2020 11: 18 New
    +5
    Edward, thanks. hi Interesting, as always. Only here are some things in doubt.

    Honestly, such floating structures will make an overkill for themselves in calm weather without any involvement of the opposing side. smile
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 11: 47 New
      +2
      Honestly, such floating structures will make an overkill for themselves in calm weather without any involvement of the opposing side.

      Konstantin, while I read the article, as I saw this picture - I was sure that I would find your comment about it! laughing Yes, apparently, the scale is not always observed.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 24 2020 11: 51 New
        +3
        ... the scale is not respected everywhere ...

        Yeah ... this shit on the boats on your right, by the way, doesn’t resemble anything? laughing
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 11: 56 New
          +2
          Yeah ... this shit on the boats on your right, by the way, doesn’t resemble anything?

          this is for the mental impact on the Byzantines. Hand-painted hahl swam walked on water to the fortress. Those who saw scattered. The most persistent received such a helmet and went crazy. soldier
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 24 2020 12: 06 New
            +1
            Those who saw scattered

            Well, then women would have come to the walls, these would definitely not have scattered. laughing
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 12: 31 New
              +2
              Well, then women would have come to the walls, these would definitely not have scattered.

              I see, if you lived at that time, how would an experienced tankman masterfully cope with a ram? soldier Well, is he obviously no more difficult than the T-62? drinks
              1. Catfish
                Catfish April 24 2020 13: 37 New
                +1
                ... how would an experienced tankman masterfully handle a ram? soldier well, is he obviously no harder than the t-62? drinks

                This is according to what (someone) ram. laughing In my army, my "personal" car was a "half-four", on the T-62 I studied in a training regiment. soldier
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 13: 41 New
                  +2
                  studied at the T-62 training regiment.

                  it turns out, taught on a more complex than on the T-54?
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish April 24 2020 13: 46 New
                    +2
                    Yeah, everyone breathed a sigh of relief that there were no stabilizers on the 54-ke, they knew that there was nothing on the tanks at Damansky because of getting Chinese blanks, and all the electronics went into gear right away, and you go, spin the dead servomotors by hand, for ... you suffer.
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 14: 03 New
                      +3
                      there was nothing from getting Chinese blanks to tanks

                      there the Chinese fired from RPG-2, and only Leonov’s tank was knocked out. And then, it is believed that not a grenade launcher was knocked out, but ran into a mine. hi
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish April 24 2020 14: 13 New
                        +4
                        Let GLAVPUR tell someone else about mines on ice. But for erpgeshniks, they really hollowed out cells in the ice, from there Leonova flew in. But he was warned not to go there with tanks, and the peasant wanted a general's star for epaulettes. And they had anti-tank weave there, they didn't have the shells they needed. Kohl, I served at that time on the Amur, from us the officers went to Damansky "for familiarization", and I know everything from them. And the chief of staff of our regiment (54th OTP) also brought photographs of our border guards, whom the Chinese disfigured after their death. So I have a very definite relationship with our "little brothers". No matter what. Like, yes, I understand everything, but ... negative
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 14: 19 New
                        +5
                        But he was warned not to go into tanks, and the peasant wanted a general's star on shoulder straps.

                        Konstantin, about this I was not in the know, officially I have not heard such memories!
                        And the chief of staff of our regiment (54 OTP) also brought photographs of our border guards, whom the Chinese disfigured after death.

                        I heard about this ... Yes, and from the second group of Rabovich only one survived on March 2 - the Chinese had already finished off with his bayonet in the chest, ours managed to repel him.
                        So I have a very definite relationship with our "younger brothers". No matter what. Like, yes, I understand everything, but ... negative

                        that's how it should be. Whatever news there is a "rainbow" drawn on relationships. If something happened ... Everything will be bad! what
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish April 24 2020 14: 27 New
                        +4
                        Konstantin, about this I was not in the know, officially I have not heard such memories!

                        But who will release this in the official version. At the beginning of the XNUMXs I ran into a live broadcast with Babansky, I thought at least after so many years he would say something, he did get the Hero, incl. and for pulling the colonel’s body out of the tank, in the case, in short. No, everything is quiet, everything is offensive, but the Babansky general is a border guard, and not the nonsense sergeant who was in Damansky. Everything is clear here and there are no complaints to anyone. You can’t fix anything and nothing will change.
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 14: 41 New
                        +3
                        He received the Hero, incl. and for pulling the colonel’s body out of the tank, in the case, in short.

                        He is truly a hero. And on March 2, the Chinese could not, or rather, did not have time to destroy his group - Bubenin and his men arrived on time in an armored personnel carrier.
    2. Undecim
      Undecim April 24 2020 15: 13 New
      +4
      this is for the mental impact on the Byzantines.
      Well yes. The form of a battering ram showed what would happen to the defenders of the city in the event of a successful assault.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 24 2020 15: 16 New
        +3
        Beautiful, but only if there is the expected orientation. laughing
        1. Undecim
          Undecim April 24 2020 15: 31 New
          +4
          But who is asking the vanquished for orientation? The winner appoints what he appoints, that will be. Otherwise, why the ram was planed so promisingly.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 24 2020 16: 45 New
            +4
            Perhaps - yes, no doubt about the ram. laughing
            I found here one little picture with a battering ram, but, I'm afraid that they will close me immediately. Therefore, I insert a neutral one, I just liked the idea. smile
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 15: 17 New
        +5
        Well yes. The form of a battering ram showed what would happen to the defenders of the city in the event of a successful assault.

        Exactly, exactly! Therefore, everyone who could, screeched out through the back gate! fellow
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov April 24 2020 12: 30 New
    +2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Honestly, such floating structures will make an overkill for themselves in calm weather without any involvement of the opposing side.

    Probably the author of the miniature (15-17th centuries) may never have been at sea, and he did not see the ships live, painted as best he could, described it in his own words.
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 12: 41 New
      +2
      and I didn’t see the ships live, painted as best I could, described it in my own words.

      yeah, and according to his ideas, two giant athletes were holding a ram, and on top of it a combat dwarf from one famous series rode on top of it. laughing
      1. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov April 24 2020 12: 45 New
        +3
        Quote: Pane Kohanku
        two giant athlete held a ram

        No, it’s hanging on their strings.
        In general, the miniaturist "adjusted", they laughed with all the scriptorium. laughing
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 13: 22 New
          +2
          In general, the miniaturist "adjusted", they laughed with all the scriptorium.

          In fact, Sergei, everything was exactly that, and the ancient wunderwaffe was proudly called "Squadron assault ram-carrier" Luka Myasishchev "! fellow the name of the ship was embossed in gold script front gun turret main caliber ram. soldier To the author - Eduard, I swear on myself for humor, but I always resort to reading with pleasure! drinks Yes, and chat!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 24 2020 14: 00 New
            +4
            ... assault ram carrier "Luka"!

            "In Zamoskvorechye, in a clearing, a house with three windows ..." How, how, I remember, was in his youth in those parts. laughing
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 24 2020 14: 04 New
              +3
              So, they begin with rams and continue with merchants.
              1. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 14: 10 New
                +4
                So, they begin with rams and continue with merchants.

                People do not change! wink Then Anton and Bubalik will come, and we will have a nightly concert every night ... drinks And in general, Sergey, it’s not our fault that such ancestors used our ancestors! stop
              2. Catfish
                Catfish April 24 2020 14: 16 New
                +2
                Do you have a complaint to Mr. Kustodiev? Are you a Russophobe trilobite ?! wassat No.
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 14: 26 New
                  +3
                  Do you have a complaint to Mr. Kustodiev? Are you a Russophobe trilobite ?!

                  No, he is a Russophile, he just Levitsky, Borovikovsky and Rokotov more like! tongue drinks
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 April 24 2020 15: 17 New
                    +3
                    Yes, everything can be accommodated - from Kustodiev to Bryullov.

                    By the way, the meeting of Kustodiev in Nizhny Novgorod is all pretty.
                2. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 April 24 2020 15: 14 New
                  +2
                  The joke about Budyonny and Babel was remembered.
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 14: 04 New
              +2
              How, how, I recall, I have been in those parts of my youth when I was young.

              as I understand it, the demon tempter did not appear in the form of a snake, but in the form of a cat to this famous merchant woman? wink
              1. Catfish
                Catfish April 24 2020 14: 19 New
                +3
                She herself is a snake. Zoology certificate: seals live in the marine corps of the North American state, and self-respecting cats live in Moscow!
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 14: 22 New
                  +2
                  and self-respecting Cats live in Moscow!

                  and in the Urals - severe brutal big cats? drinks something Vlad doesn’t enter ... sad
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish April 24 2020 14: 29 New
                    +1
                    Perhaps they have Big Cat Hunt for vile rats and other rodents there. drinks
                  2. Catfish
                    Catfish April 24 2020 17: 08 New
                    +3
                    You see, Nikolai, our Vlad left us with his attention and some unfinished rat has already climbed into history. soldier
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 April 24 2020 17: 58 New
                      +2
                      Cats disappear, rodents appear! what
                    2. Catfish
                      Catfish April 24 2020 18: 02 New
                      +2
                      Rodents - nibbled !!! bully
                      "Always shine, shine everywhere!" And only in the eye. yes
                  3. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 18: 08 New
                    +2
                    some unfinished rat has already climbed

                    sculpting cons on each comment, regardless of the meaning of that comment, is a sign of bewilderment. The rat is the rat. You're right.
                  4. Pane Kohanku
                    Pane Kohanku April 24 2020 23: 31 New
                    +1
                    uninhabited rat

                    There are already two of them. Organized. "Higher creatures", damn it. The feeling that I owe each of them a ruble. Two. request
                  5. Catfish
                    Catfish April 25 2020 14: 50 New
                    +1
                    They have it from the inferiority complex, otherwise there is no way to explain the desire to crap stealthily. request
  • Catfish
    Catfish April 24 2020 13: 49 New
    +2
    Most likely ... But here the word doesn’t describe more, but described, but forgive me an unknown artist. smile
  • Caretaker
    Caretaker April 24 2020 12: 37 New
    +2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Only here are some things in doubt.

    A ram in a ship is difficult to operate. Try being in the boat to strike the oar at the pier. What will happen?
    1. Catfish
      Catfish April 24 2020 15: 22 New
      +4
      What will happen?

      The head pops up next to the overturned boat and gurgles: "Rollback is normal !!!" laughing
      Let others try better.
      1. Lexus
        Lexus April 25 2020 03: 36 New
        +5
        And if you first throw them "cats"? The question is extremely provocative. laughing drinks
        1. Caretaker
          Caretaker April 25 2020 08: 47 New
          +2
          Quote: lexus
          And if you first throw them "cats"? The question is extremely provocative.

          Then the ship will not sail away, but will hang out near the shore.
        2. Catfish
          Catfish April 25 2020 14: 53 New
          +2
          Lyosha, hello! Don’t throw cats anywhere, they need to be fed. smile drinks
  • Edward Vashchenko
    April 24 2020 16: 58 New
    +2
    Constantine
    greetings!
    of course of course,
    but this is how the artist painted in the 15th century, he saw it that way)
    Yours faithfully, hi
    1. Catfish
      Catfish April 24 2020 17: 04 New
      +2
      Hi Edward! smile Yes, I understand, of course, but it was simply impossible to pass by. wink
      And thank you very much, without your work there would not be such luxurious communication. drinks
  • Caretaker
    Caretaker April 24 2020 11: 18 New
    +4
    Slavs at the stone-thrower. VII century Reconstruction of the author

    With the exception of the massive base, all other elements are not realistic.
    A beam of 80x80 with a length of more than 3 m will break after the first impact on the transverse beam.
    By the way, how to correctly formulate: throwing, throwing, shooting?
    Why are chains and massive rings used in the sling attachment?
    Sling principle based on the release of one of two ropes when a projectile passes a given section of the trajectory. The only figure in this thread on which an attempt was made to fulfill this condition was presented rich (Dmitry), but there are comments on the design.
  • Caretaker
    Caretaker April 24 2020 12: 04 New
    +3
    Slavs on odnodrevka. VII century Reconstruction of the author

    It looks like the boat was taken from the museum :)

    A common mistake in the image of an archer is when the bowstring is longer than the bow.

    It is unlikely that the bow was worn as a seated warrior.
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 24 2020 17: 00 New
      +4
      It looks like the boat was taken from the museum :)

      From the museum, for sure laughing laughing laughing
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master April 24 2020 13: 29 New
    +3
    Wonderful material, except for one drawing, but I have already said this. smile
    That’s why (I repeat for the hundredth time) I don’t like to insert images into articles. smile
    Edward, thanks for the article. I look forward to when we get to the first states.
  • Operator
    Operator April 24 2020 14: 00 New
    0
    The author is clearly an Avar by origin, since he is obsessively pushing the article about the leading role of the Avars in the invasion of the Central European (Serbs and Croats) and Eastern European (Antes) into the European provinces of Byzantium, followed by their exclusion from the empire.

    The simple thought "where did the notorious obry go after that" (they were flushed down the toilet according to the Slavic chronicles) does not come to mind to the author.

    Plus, from the floundering bay of the author-avar, the indigenous inhabitants of the Odra and Nisa basin are the Western Vendian Slavs whose ancestors came to this region in the 6th millennium BC (3000 years before the arrival of the Erbins, the ancestors of the Celts and most Germans in Western Europe), became migrants building fortresses to capture foreign territories, and not to defend their own.

    The author’s Avar’s deza especially about the use by the Slavs of chisels as marine watercraft — such as, well, odnoderevki — delivered especially; plows with nasal boards, decks and masts - no, not heard.
  • Caretaker
    Caretaker April 24 2020 14: 04 New
    +2
    Sorbians (Serbs) migrating to this area, Antian tribal group, at the beginning of the XNUMXth century created powerful fortresses between the Elbe and Saale rivers: the structure was a dry masonry fortification with wooden structures on top.
    Perhaps the walls of the Lyubshansky fortification, one of the oldest partially preserved Slavic settlements in the Northwest, were just such.
  • ee2100
    ee2100 April 24 2020 14: 06 New
    +4
    Good afternoon. In the description of the Battle of Rakovorskoy, it is indicated that the Novgorodians carried with them some kind of "vicious" (siege) structure, which the knights burned. What did the author think it was?
    1. Edward Vashchenko
      April 24 2020 17: 02 New
      +1
      Good afternoon,
      these are vices - they have already been described above in the comments. This is the common name for stone throwers.
      hi
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 April 24 2020 17: 31 New
        +1
        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        Good afternoon,
        these are vices - they have already been described above in the comments. This is the common name for stone throwers.
        hi

        I do not think that these are stone-throwers. Pay attention to the location of the Rakvere fortress. Stonecutters can be put, but their effectiveness will be minimal. Yes, and how many stonecutters need to be transported to the Novgorod train? About shells generally keep quiet. The fact that the Novgorodians drove into the sawn-off shotgun was many times more effective than stonecutters. The Novgorodians are not adventurers in order to understand the siege of the fortress, and the knights knew very well with what siege equipment the Nogorodsky army was moving. They were real but understood that the fortress could fall
      2. ee2100
        ee2100 April 25 2020 22: 50 New
        +1
        You ask a more or less specific question. They just ignore you. Do not know the answer write "I do not know" but this is "zapadlo" for you. You are know-it-alls! That's why this attitude towards you
  • Mihaylov
    Mihaylov April 24 2020 15: 35 New
    +3
    A lot of controversy arises around where the Slavs built these boats. It can be assumed that during the siege of Constantinople, construction was carried out on the spot, since in these places there is still enough forest.

    I can assume that with the ability of the Slavs to work with wood, to produce grooves in place of wood, there was no problem. I remember seeing a video of how the Papuans made such a chisel in a couple of hours without any problems and apparently using the same technologies.
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 April 24 2020 17: 47 New
      0
      Quote: Mihaylov
      A lot of controversy arises around where the Slavs built these boats. It can be assumed that during the siege of Constantinople, construction was carried out on the spot, since in these places there is still enough forest.

      I can assume that with the ability of the Slavs to work with wood, to produce grooves in place of wood, there was no problem. I remember seeing a video of how the Papuans made such a chisel in a couple of hours without any problems and apparently using the same technologies.

      - a pie, such as from a French trough. But in Russian there are words such as
      feast-feast
      - pie-casserole from the test with fillers meat, berry, etc.
      -cake-the same thing
      - pyrite - a burning stone sparkles. The word is considered Greek.
      That is, with this, something is hot from the heat of the fire.
      But after all, a pie — a land boat was made by burning, therefore it is logical to assume that the pie is a Russian word.
  • BAI
    BAI April 24 2020 20: 30 New
    +5
    We see that the fortifications of the early Slavs were distinctive and original, for their construction the Slavs had enough opportunities and forces.

    1. ee2100
      ee2100 April 24 2020 21: 26 New
      0
      What is this picture about?
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 April 25 2020 08: 26 New
      0
      Class !!! Author-Merinov? From * MK *? good
  • bubalik
    bubalik April 25 2020 00: 38 New
    +4
    Thanks, interesting. good
    There was a question for the author. what Edward, after all, besides the active, first-line bayonets themselves, someone served and collected all these (rams, siege towers, etc.). We need carpenters, masons, gunsmiths, mathematicians.
    What was the situation with the rear support of troops at that time? yes
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 April 25 2020 08: 29 New
      +2
      Quote: bubalik
      We need carpenters, masons, gunsmiths, mathematicians.

      Dormitory, social package and decent reward are guaranteed. laughing
      1. bubalik
        bubalik April 25 2020 08: 37 New
        +2
        ,,, here is what they fed, what they paid, how they treated? tongue
  • Sergey Sfiedu
    Sergey Sfiedu 17 June 2020 20: 05 New
    0
    Drawing "Slavic" onager brought inexpressible pleasure and fun. And the whole article is no better. You have to, um, "rethink" the sources.