How the ancient Slavs took the city


The assault on the Byzantine fortress in the VI - early VII centuries. Author's drawing (not reconstruction)


foreword


The development of the siege business among the Slavs (according to available evidence in historical sources) shows how, in a very short period of time, they were able to master a rather complicated military craft, going from perfect ignorance of the attack principles of a fortified settlement to using sophisticated, sophisticated equipment in sieges.

We emphasize that for the period under consideration siege weapons are the top of military technology, and not all warlike peoples were able to use them, which can not be said about the Slavs. We can assume that this situation was due to the fact that the Slavs themselves were already quite familiar with woodworking, and understanding of the creation of machines against this background came to them quickly enough.

The same situation was in shipbuilding, when the Slavs, actively using odnodrevki, learned about the technical possibilities of building more complex ships. It seems that the use of odnodrevki with extended boards boards was a big step forward. We don’t know on which boats the Slavs made the hikes that the sources tell us about the Greek islands or the east coast of Italy, but these transitions were not as simple as modern man might think and required a lot of knowledge.

Siege of the VI century


If at the beginning of the VI century. Since the Slavs could not even think about the seizure of cities, from the middle of the century they actively participated in sieges, at first together with the Huns, and then with the Avars, gradually increasing knowledge in this military craft.

In 578, at the request of the Avars, “mechanics and builders” arrived from Byzantium, whom they forced under threat of death to build a bridge across the Danube near the city of Sirmia. Thus, the Avars first mechanics appeared and they began to master the technique of building siege weapons. The ability of the Slavs to work with wood was actively used by the kagan in the construction of siege weapons under the leadership of the Romans prisoners and defectors, the construction of crossings during the siege of Sirmia (Sremska-Mitrovica) and Singidon (Belgrade), a city with "very strong walls."

We can assume that without the presence of the Avars in the army, it was precisely the Slavs, subjects and allies, they would have hardly been able to cope with the siege work, and this was in conditions when under the Emperor Justinian I new fortifications on the Danube border and in its rear were updated and built. At least in the sources we do not find information that the nomadic Avars themselves would take the city by attack.

The Slavs, even before the arrival of the formidable Avar warriors in Podunavye, for several years constantly increased the frequency of attacks on the borders of the Byzantine Empire, during the winter period 547/548, 549/550. they constantly plundered the countryside, not stopping before the fortifications. “Even many fortifications,” wrote Procopius from Caesarea, “who were here and in former times and seemed strong, since no one defended them, the Slavs managed to be in-law.”

They probably took the border towns either by a sudden raid, or by cunning, and sometimes by starvation, destroying the infrastructure.

In the province of Lower Moesia, the Slavs even settled down in the vicinity of the looted settlement Ulmiton and the fortress of Adina, which forced Emperor Justinian I to strengthen these settlements:

"... since the barbarians-Slavs are constantly hiding here, and, secretly setting up ambushes against those who go this way, they made these places completely impassable."

A large number of fortresses were destroyed in the borderlands, as indicated by archeology: Sasidava N.III, Histria Rom. D-1, Ulmetum C (see above), Dinogetia C, Sucidava C, Novae D-0b (Shuvalov P.V.).

In 549/550, the Slavs took and devastated the city of Toper (or Topir) on the Mesta River (Nestos River, Greece) in the province of Rhodope (Rodona). A huge number of researchers consider this an important milestone in the fighting of the Slavs.

It was a rich town located on an important trade route, flourishing thanks to trade, judging by the number of people killed (15 thousand men), it was not a small town in the Early Middle Ages. The city was protected on several sides by a river, on one side of it was a hill that towered above the fortress walls, which did not have adequate protection for the defenders.

From the story of Procopius of Caesarea, you can see what tactics the Slavs used to capture settlements during this period. It came down to either military tricks or sudden raids.

Since Toper, which was extremely rare during this period, had a permanent military garrison, the Slavs first lured him out of the city. Their small detachment in front of the gate bothered the defenders of the walls. Stratiots in full force, armed, without proper intelligence, came out to drive them away. The Slavs started a feigned flight, forcing the Byzantines to pursue them, at the same time the Slav warriors who suddenly emerged from an ambush hit the Romans in the rear and completely destroyed the opponents. The combined forces of the Slavs immediately attacked the walls of Toper, the townspeople in the absence of warriors tried to fight off the attack, they threw stones and poured boiling oil and tar, but the resistance was short-lived.

The Slavs, without wasting time, “fired a cloud of arrows at them”, taking advantage of the absence of protective galleries on the wall and the fact that a hill dominated the walls of the city, shot down the townspeople with arrows, and, having put down the stairs, took Toper with an attack, then made him cruel massacre.

In the period from 584 to spring 587 the Avars, obviously, together with the Slavs, "literally ironed the Lower Danube limes," according to the researcher P.V. Shuvalov, destroying all the Romance fortifications.

In 584, the Slavs traveled all of Hellas to Thessaloniki, capturing many cities and fortresses, as John of Ephesus writes about.

All the details of the Slavic sieges of Thessalonica are described in the hagiographic essay (description of the life of the saints), “Miracles of St. Demetrius of Solunsky ”(hereinafter CDS), a work written by various authors, the first of which was Archbishop Thessaloniki John, who lived in the late VI - early VII centuries.

The date of the first siege remains open: either in the 90s or 80s of the VI century. The last date is comparable to the campaigns described by John of Ephesus, so a powerful Slavic army of 5 thousand soldiers approached the city:

"They would not have attacked such a large city so suddenly if they had not surpassed those who had ever fought against them by force and courage."

But with a swift take of the city failed.

But the dating of the following events of 584-587, in our opinion, requires significant adjustment, we will try to reconstruct them.

We see that in 584 the Slavs tried to capture Thessaloniki from a swoop, without using any siege technique.

And soon the Slavs, subjects of the Avar, took the city of Ankhial on the Black Sea coast, breaking the wall, according to some researchers, this happened in 585 (N.I. Serikov).

But in 586 all the Romance troops of the master of millilitum presented Comeniusola in Anchial, the representative took and distributed the troops here, obviously, there could be no talk of any capture of the city in the previous year, since Theophilos the Confessor had nothing to do with it.


Anchial, modern Pomorie, Bulgaria

In the same year 586, the kagan, having defeated the expeditionary army of Komenziol, took many cities and went to the Long Walls, but fled from them due to an inexplicable panic. On the way, he embarked on a siege of a certain city of Apiria (Απειριαν), where the siege mechanic Busa was captured. The townspeople did not want to buy the bus, which the Avars were going to kill. They were incited by the lover of the wife of this same Bead. Then he (primarily in revenge) built a ram for the Avar (κριός) - a battering ram, and taught them how to make siege mechanisms with which they took the city and other cities, most likely in Thrace, not far from the capital. All this happened in 586/587.

This is the starting point, when the Avar and the Slavs appeared on this theater as a professional polyorgetic, which Feofan fixes in his Chronicle. Other mechanics may have been captured, but documents that have reached us do not report this.

It was at this time that the allies of Byzantium, the Antes, attacked Slovenian settlements, and not in 585.

After which the Slovenes began to devastate the coastal strip along the Black Sea, here they moved north, possibly in the direction of the Ants who attacked their lands, in the province of Geminont.

And just at that time they came to Ankhialai (modern Pomorie, Bulgaria), a city fortified by Justinian, located on a cape and inaccessible from the sea. The Slavs broke the wall and captured it. How did this happen?

Perhaps, with the help of a ram, having learned to build it from a captive mechanic, it is possible, as described in the CDS:

"Then, hiding under turtles covered with leathers, scary, like snakes, they began, as already mentioned, to destroy the foundation of proteichism (external strengthening) with axes and crowbars."

That is, already at the end of the VI century. Slavs learned to break open city walls. We repeat, in the case of the mentioned city of Ankhial, we don’t know whether the ram was used or manual, if there was a “turtle” over the besiegers, or they acted with picks and crowbars, only under the cover of shields and shooters.

In 597, the Slavs ravaged the capital of Lower Moesia - the well-fortified Markianopol (Devnya village, Bulgaria), how it was captured, it is not known, possibly with a swoop or cunning, as happened with the highly fortified city of Salona (Split region, Croatia) in Dalmatia. Byzantine border units from Salon, taking advantage of the absence of men in the adjacent territory belonging to the Avars, carried out robberies. The Slavs, having ambushed them, killed the attackers.

"Taking them weapon, banners and other military signs and crossing the river, the named Slavs came to the cisre. Seeing them, the Romans who were there, taking also the banners and weapons of their fellow tribesmen, considered them themselves as such. When the named Slavs reached the enema, they allowed them to pass. Having passed, the Slavs immediately expelled the Romans and took possession of the aforementioned fortress of the Salon. ”

Perhaps, on September 22, 597, the second siege of Thessalonica began, in any case, this event occurred at the end of the VI century. Archbishop John wrote that Avars, Slavs and other barbarians, were sent to the siege of the largest city of the Balkans, while the kagan himself moved to Dalmatia. This raid was associated with the failure of the kagan during the siege of the long-suffering Singidun.

But back to Thessalonica. Besiegers, unfamiliar with the area, took the fortress of St. The matrons who stood in front of the city, beyond Thessalonica, and first attacked her.


Thessaloniki Walls

The army brought with them pre-made stairs. Warriors did not waste time on the fortress of St. The matrons, realizing that they were mistaken, they put the stairs to the walls of the city and immediately began the assault. The first onslaught was stopped solely due to a miracle, since there were few defenders on the wall, perhaps it was a spontaneous onslaught of a small part of the army, while others were engaged in sieges of small fortresses around the city and robbing the surrounding area. The city was completely surrounded by land. An attempt to capture the city from the raid was connected with the fact that it was practically impossible to take it with the correct siege. Even despite the fact that the city did not have an eparch and the main city militia.

The city had a double wall with a thickness of 2 to 4,6 m, a height of 8,5 to 12 m, which completely coincided with the theoretical settings prescribed in Poliorketiki.

On the night of September 23-24, the besiegers began preparations for the assault, perhaps the army made a sacrifice, because a huge fire was lit, and around it the soldiers made terrifying cries.

The next day began the manufacture of siege equipment:

“Then all night and tomorrow we heard noise from all sides when they prepared gelepolis, iron“ rams ”, huge stone-throwers and so-called“ turtles ”, which they covered with dry-skinned stone-throwers. Then they changed their minds and, so that these guns would not be harmed by fire or boiling tar, replaced their skin with bloodied skins of freshly picked bulls and camels. ”

From this episode, we see that the Slavs confidently build siege machines, which were repeatedly described in the Poliorketiki of the ancient Romans and Greeks.

Interestingly, the Life shows us a detailed procedure for the Slavs under Thessalonica.

On September 24, they prepare guns, on September 25 they begin a siege: at the same time they are trying to break through the wall with wall-driven vehicles and enter the city from the sea on rafts. On September 26, the besiegers made a successful sortie. On September 27 and 28, the Slavs continued shelling from stone-throwers and other weapons:

“And they enclosed the quadrangular stone-throwers with boards on only three sides, so that those inside were not wounded by arrows [sent] from the wall. But when one of them, along with the boards, caught fire from the fire arrow, they retreated, carrying away the guns. The next day they again delivered the same stone-throwers, covered together with the boards, as we have said, with freshly skinned skins, and, putting them closer to the wall, threw mountains and hills, shooting at us. "

All this siege shows that, even among the Slavs, specialists appeared who were able to build the most complex military tools of this period, tactically and technically (lack of food supplies), they were not yet prepared for long sieges:

"A lot of stones sent from the city, as by order, fell into the narrowed top of the barbaric stone-throwers and killed those inside."

As usual, the contradictions also affected, possibly connected with the “democratic” structure of the Slavic army, and the lack of unity of command. Or clashes between different tribes of the kagan: Avars, Bulgarians, Gepids? .. Already on the eve of the September 29 assault, an escape from the Slavic camp to the city began.

It can be assumed that, in conditions of failure, numerous Slavs immediately abandoned the Avars and came into conflict with them. The Avars could keep the Slavs in subjection in Panonia, at first exclusively with the help of terror, and later including them in the common cause of robbery during campaigns. This mechanism worked in case of victories (the capture of the Salon), but did not work in the event of the slightest military failure.

After that, the besiegers decided to urgently withdraw, and part of the defectors left for the city.

In the same year 597, as Feofilakt Simokatta writes about, the kagan himself with the “crowds of barbarians” besieged the city of Bonnie in Dalmatia, and, most importantly, with the help of many wall-hung guns, captured forty fortifications in the area. Thus, we clearly see the continuous development of the siege technique among the Avars, and, naturally, of the Slavs, because without the latter it is doubtful that the nomads master this technique.

Siege of the VII century


The Slavic tribes of this period, who lived in a vast space, fought with different opponents, but sources give us the opportunity to confidently talk about the gradual growth of their skills in siege business. In 605, as part of the Lombard troops, the Slavs, subjects of the Hagan, took part in the siege of several North Italian cities, in particular, Mantova was taken with the help of rams.

But Thomas Splitsky, reports a new seizure of Salon, but by the Antian tribe of Croats, the fierce enemies of the Avar, in 615 or 616. He writes that

“Began [the leader. - V.E.] from all sides constantly bombard the Salon with arrows or darts. Some from the slope of the overhanging mountain with a deafening roar threw stones from the sling at the walls, others, in a closed formation, gradually approaching the walls, wondered how to ram the gates. ”

If the message of Thomas Splitsky is genuine, then we see that the Antes are already actively using siege weapons: the Salon could not stand the siege and was taken.

A new siege of Thessaloniki occurred in the 10-20s of the 618th century, possibly around XNUMX, and if the Slavs, dependent on the Avars, participated in the previous assaults, then completely free tribes attack Thessaloniki. At a time when the question of whether or not to be a Roman Empire was being decided in the East, the Slavs began to colonize the European part of the empire: at first they plundered the islands and coast of all of Greece, and then approached on odnodrevki to the largest city of Greece. At the same time, everyone from small to large participated in the campaign.

The elected military leader of the Slavic tribes Khatson or Khotun divined before the siege and received signs that he would enter the city.

For three days, the Slavs looked for weaknesses in the defense of the city, both from the shore and from the sea, built siege weapons, and the townspeople tried to create additional fortifications. Perhaps, an attack from the land of such a powerful and well-fortified city was not supposed, but it was a distracting maneuver, with the aim of attacking a weakly protected harbor and fortifications of the coast. And then the assault began:

“On the fourth day at sunrise, the whole barbarian tribe simultaneously screamed and attacked the city wall from all sides: some threw stones from the prepared stone throwers, others dragged the stairs to the wall, trying to capture it, still others brought fire to the gates, fourth sent arrows to the walls like snow clouds. "

At the same time, an attack of the Slavs from the sea began, it is worth noting that the author writes either about odnodrevki, then about the ships that use the Slavs. It’s not worth guessing here for a long time, it’s quite possible that the Slavs had not only odnodrevki, but also various ships, possibly captured on campaigns, as was the case described in the same CDS, when the Slavs seized a ship off the coast of Greece with Bishop Cyprian from Africa at the end of the XNUMXth century

The city was seriously preparing for defense. The Romans blocked the harbor with a chain, spear fortified the coast. In the harbor, a fence was made of heavy, interlocked vessels.

Warriors on ships tried to land in places that they had spotted in the previous days, moreover, they knew about traps, however, something went wrong. Either the intercession of St. Dmitry, who traveled around the city by land and water, or the sudden deterioration of weather conditions, changed the situation at sea. The ships of the Slavs began to collide, some overturned, while others carried just to the shore to traps and shallows.

In addition, the leader of the Slavs Khatson was captured, that is, the prediction came true, and he "entered the gates of the city." This happened just at the gates that were the weakest fortified and which the Slavs wanted to attack from the sea. It is difficult to agree that during or immediately after the battle he made his way to the city for negotiations, most likely he was captured. One of the noble townspeople tried to shelter him, use him for some kind of bargaining with the Slavs, but the townspeople found out about this, and the women of Thessaloniki tore the Slavic leader.

But the city did not get rid of danger. Slavic tribes migrating to Greece saw him as a significant threat and at the same time tidied prey. In conditions when the empire could not allocate an expeditionary army for the Balkans, the Slavs called the Avar into the allies of the Kagan, seducing him with easy prey, as the author of the CDS writes.

At the same time, the Avars themselves were actively fighting against the Byzantines, even trying to capture Constantinople with a snap.

Maybe the arrival of the Avar forces was not connected with the Slavic embassy, ​​since the Khagan was already interested in the capture of the city.

In 620, he arrived under the city with great power, and it can be said that it was a rehearsal of the siege of Constantinople in 626. The same alignment of forces attracts attention: Slavic tribes, allies of the Avars, Avars with their subjects Slavs, Bulgarians, Gepids and other tribes.

An attempt to capture the city with armored riders failed. The attackers brought up pre-prepared siege weapons:

“Some cooked the so-called“ turtles ”from braids and leathers, others - at the gates of“ rams ”from huge trunks and well-rotating wheels, others - huge wooden towers that exceeded the height of the wall, at the top of which were armed strong youths, the fourth were driven in by the so-called gorpeks "fifths dragged ladders on wheels, sixths invented flammable means."

It is worth noting that the besiegers and the besieged used different types of stone throwers, which the author emphasizes in terms of CDS.

The siege lasted 30 days, but due to the fact that the city constantly received help from the sea, it was unsuccessful and was lifted: the kagan left for Pannonia, especially since his enterprise could not be called unsuccessful: at the same time the Avars and Slavs devastated and took captured a huge number of the population.

The first siege of Constantinople


In 626, a grandiose event took place: Slavic tribes took part in the siege of the capital of the great Roman Empire - Constantinople. The city had powerful fortifications, its towers were 18 m high, the walls were 9 m high and 5 m thick.

We already wrote about this siege in an article on VO “Slavs, Avars and Byzantium. The beginning of the XNUMXth century ”. Let's pay attention to some details that are not covered in the article.

Theophanes the Confessor reports that the Persian commander Sarvaros made an alliance with the Avars, separately with the Bulgars, Gepids, and the Slavs.

The location of the troops, which is described in the Easter Chronicle, is also significant: the kagan took a position in front of the walls of Constantinople in the center and north, closer to the Golden Horn, in the north were Slavs subordinate to the Avars. To the south, from the Avar headquarters, and at the Golden Gate, are the Allied Slavs. There is no absolute clarity here, but it can be assumed that these allied Slavs are precisely those with whom the Sassanids separately agreed. These are Slavic tribes who occupied the 20th century VII century. land in Greece and Macedonia. It was they who more than once participated in joint operations with the Avars, who supported the siege of the second Rome.

They, outraged by the fact that the kagan ordered to kill the Slavs from odnodrevki, who fell under the blow of the Romans warships, lifted the siege and the kagan was forced to follow them (Ivanov S.A.).

As for the siege weapons near the Avars near Constantinople, about which Patriarch Nicephorus writes (the XNUMXth century, “wooden towers and turtles”, χελωναι τα κατασκευάσματα), it is most likely that the Slavs were engaged in their construction.


Whackers. Walls of Constantinople from the Golden Horn. Istanbul. Turkey. Author photo

The blockade of Thessaloniki 674-677


The “Miracle 5” of St. Dmitry tells us that the Slavic tribes who settled in Greece and Macedonia, despite the fact that they had various contacts with Thessalonica, hatched plans to capture the city. The prince of the Rhinkhas, Pervud, or Preboud (translated in The Great Chatei-Mineiey), often visited Thessaloniki, spoke Greek and wore Romance clothes, and he was captured in 674 by order of Vasileus Constantine IV (668–685 ) and sent to the capital. This was done contrary to the interests of the city, since a delegation consisting of Slavic representatives and citizens went to the emperor. Konstantin said that he would release him at the end of the war with the Arabs, most likely the capture of Preboud was due to the fact that the emperor wanted to protect his rear from Slavic attacks, but the opposite happened.

Due to unforeseen circumstances, Pervud was killed in Constantinople, which caused fury of the Rhinkhins, their neighbors and allies:

“First of all, they decided among themselves that the Slavs from Strimon would capture the eastern and northern sides, and the Slavs from Rinkhin and the sagudata would capture the western and coastal [sending] connected ships every day.”

The two-year blockade of Thessaloniki began. The Slavs constantly attacked the surroundings and the city both on land and from the sea, using "connected ships." Under the connected ships, some researchers consider single-boat boats, connected in three pieces with a deck of boards for installing siege weapons. Of course, such structures can only be used on calm water, which, for example, is advised by the polyorgetic Anonymous Byzantine in his theoretical work (≈ X century). It is worth saying that the townspeople also used odnodrevki. In the end, a terrible city came in and around the city. The deserter Slave lured a detachment of the city militia from the city, which probably consisted of the best soldiers, and the Slavs destroyed it.

To top it all, sailors who came to the rescue of the city on ships worked in the city of outrage. Then, in the policy, it was decided to send all available ships, ships and odnodrevki for food to the Velegesite tribe along with the remaining soldiers. The Velegesite tribe did not take part in the siege, but was ready, if necessary or possible, to support other Slavs.

The Slavs decided to take advantage of the departure of the main forces. The leaders of the Druzhuvite tribe, which had not previously been mentioned during the blockade, appeared under the walls of the city and offered to storm. Apparently, they did siege artillery and various devices, according to the author of “5 miracles,” “this was something that none of our generation knew and never saw, and we still have not been able to give most of them title".

On July 25, 677, Slavs from the Rhinkhin and Sagudat tribes densely surrounded the city from the sea and land, scouts looked for weak spots in the defense and established siege artillery. True, one Slavic tribe, the Strimonians, did not approach the city, but turned back.

The next day the assault began. It lasted three days: but, as the author of this part of the CDS explains, there can be no explanation for the victory of the weak forces of the city, except for the intercession of St. Dmitry.

And again the failure caused discord among the Slavic tribes, we note that the Slavic militia did not have a single leader, at least the source did not report him, and we are talking only about a lot of leaders.

But the Slavs had an advantage in power, so they continued to rob around the city, the dispatch of the imperial troops sent the army of the Slavs, but did not dare to reach Thessaloniki.

And here we come to the most important information from this source. So, at the end of the VII century. we see which way the Slavs went from complete inability to besiege fortifications to the construction of the most complex siege weapons:

“Among them was one of this Slavic people, who knew how to behave with dignity, efficient and reasonable, and also, thanks to his vast experience, versed in the construction and installation of military vehicles. He asked the prince himself to give him permission and help in order to build a magnificent tower of tightly connected logs, to put it, skillfully strengthening it, on wheels or some ice rinks. He wanted to cover it with freshly ripped skins, set stone-throwers on top, and chain it on both sides in the form of ... a sword. From above where there are battlements, hoplites will go. It would be three floors so that archers and slingers could be placed in it - in a word, to build such a machine with the help of which, he claimed, they would definitely take the city. "

We emphasize that we have come a long way in military knowledge. Which, however, does not contradict the tribal system of society. Military activity and robbery in the conditions of migration come to the fore, as with other "barbarian" peoples. Although, after some time, the Slavs will completely settle on occupied lands, which we already see from the same source: the Slavs are successfully engaged in agriculture, including the development of new crops (the Velegesite tribe). Obviously, such societies, due to their internal structure, could not remain constantly in a state of war.

What technique did the Slavs use in sieges? This will be described in detail in the next article.

Sources and literature:
Chapters from the Church stories"John of Ephesus / Translation N.V. Pigulevskaya // Pigulevskaya N.V. Syrian medieval historiography. Research and translations. Compiled by Meshcherskaya E.N. SPb., 2011.
Procopius of Caesarea War with the Goths / Translation S.P. Kondratiev. T.I. M., 1996.
Procopius of Caesarea. About the buildings // War with the Goths. About the buildings. Translation by S.P. Kondratiev. T.II. M., 1996.
Miracles of St. Demetrius of Solunsky. Translation by S. A. Ivanov // Codex of the oldest written news of the Slavs. T.II. M., 1995.
Pavel Deacon. History of the Lombards. Translation D.N. Cancer. M., 1970.
Konstantin Bagryanorodny. About managing an empire. M, 1990.
Theophylact Simocatta History. Translation by S.P. Kondratiev. M., 1996.
Thomas Splitsky “History of the Archbishops of Salons and Split” Translation, introductory article and comments by OA Akimova. M., 1997.
Chichurov I.S. Byzantine historical works: "Chronography" of Theophanes, "Breviary" of Nicephorus. Texts. Transfer. A comment. M., 1980.
Corpus scriptorum historiae Byzantinae. Theophanis chronographia. Ex recensione loan. Classeni VI Bonnae. MDCCCXXXIX.
Shuvalov P.V. Northeast of the Balkan Peninsula in the Late Antiquity // From the History of Byzantium and Byzantine Studies. Interuniversity collection. Ed. G.L. Kurbatova. L., 1991.


To be continued ...
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  1. svp67 April 9 2020 05: 14 New
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    +3
    ??? Of course, thanks to the author for the efforts, but after reading there were so many questions to the author that you can write a separate article from them, which in turn is prohibited by the rules of the site. It seems like we should offer to open a new section on “VO” - “Alternative History”
    1. Aleksandr72 April 9 2020 06: 21 New
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      In principle, the whole history of the Slavs (and not only) of that time can be safely called alternative. The Slavs themselves practically did not leave written sources. Archaeological excavations give an idea of ​​the life of the Slavs, but not of the historical events that took place then. So it turns out that the whole history of that time is our idea of ​​it, based largely on mythological sources (usually of Western European or Eastern origin), the reliability of which should be treated with great caution (the authors wrote about what they themselves they didn’t see, but learned from sources of “trustworthy”), as well as from frank inventions of the historians themselves, depending on many factors (the fantasies of the authors, their political commitment, and much more).
      1. Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 08: 49 New
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        Quote: Aleksandr72
        The Slavs themselves practically did not leave written sources.

        Invalid remark. It would be more correct - the Christians, having come to the Slavs, burned everything, fighting against the polytheism of the Slavs. The "baptism" of the Slavs took place with the help of the "fire and sword" with all the ensuing consequences.
        1. Caretaker April 9 2020 10: 42 New
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          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Quote: Aleksandr72
          The Slavs themselves practically did not leave written sources.

          Invalid remark. It would be more correct - the Christians, having come to the Slavs, burned everything, fighting against the polytheism of the Slavs. The "baptism" of the Slavs took place with the help of the "fire and sword" with all the ensuing consequences.

          Right. It should be noted that even birch bark letters began to be considered as archaeological finds only during the Soviet era.
        2. svp67 April 9 2020 14: 58 New
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          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Invalid remark.

          Sorry, but in the same Novgorod many thousands of berets were already found, but written in Cyrillic, they couldn’t be destroyed if they were written differently or in those days .. But they simply don’t exist ... There are no trampled in the mud, lost birch bark letters written in a different alphabet ...
          1. Caretaker April 9 2020 16: 13 New
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            Quote: svp67
            ... in the same Novgorod many thousands of birch barks have already been found, but written in Cyrillic, they couldn’t be destroyed if they were written differently or in those days .. But they simply don’t exist ... lost birch bark letters written in a different alphabet ...

            The birch bark letters found "in the mud" were trampled back into the mud quite recently (before the beginning of the XNUMXth century).
            No wooden Slavic idols were found - so there were none?
            1. svp67 April 9 2020 17: 00 New
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              Quote: Caretaker
              No wooden Slavic idols were found - so there were none?

              An idol was found, and very ancient, very, ancient of the Egyptian pyramids, there are no letters ...

              Yes, and the Slavic found ...
              Zbruch idol

              Shklovsky idol
              1. Caretaker April 9 2020 18: 47 New
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                Quote: svp67
                An idol is found, and very ancient, very, ancient of the Egyptian pyramids,
                .
                Yes, and the Slavic found ...

                Thank you for the interesting selection, but your examples do not refute the statement that "Wooden Slavic idols were not found." Not found yet.
                The found wooden idol could not be Slavic, and the found Slavic (presumably) were not wooden, which is not evidence that the Slavs did not make wooden idols.

                It is correct to say that currently scholars do not have reliable samples of Slavic writing of 6-7 centuries, or they are not identified as Slavic.
                The statement that there was no written language is incorrect.
          2. Operator April 9 2020 16: 56 New
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            Alternativeists - supporters of the anti-Slavic conspiracy, nevermind that birch bark letters dated from the 11th century onwards are located under the pavements of a city built in the 9th century: such as evil Christians / Martians carefully excavated, destroyed all the letters earlier than the 11th century and laid the bridges in reverse order same place laughing
          3. andrew42 16 June 2020 17: 13 New
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            It is interesting to clarify by what period the written birch bark dates back, which do you mean? "Cyrillic" in pre-Christian Novgorod (to Dobrynia and Vladimir) - this is some kind of oxymoron. Novgorod is not Bohemia, and not Moravia, you can’t get a taxi for it from the Czech Republic “for a hundred bucks”, and to spread the Greek letter among the wider population, at that time, information exchange rates are completely unrealistic. I believe that it should be accepted that the Slavs had a household letter without Cyril and Methodius - the Initial letter was called, and even the Slovo - definitely.
      2. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 12: 56 New
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        Quote: Aleksandr72
        The Slavs themselves practically did not leave written sources.

        Not at all left. From which, in fact, we conclude that they did not have a written language. Well, honestly, if there had been at least one written Slavic document of that time ... But no, in any case, so far we only have fakes like the Veles Book.
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        based largely on mythological sources

        Why "mythologized"? Exclusively because some do not like their content? It seems to me that this is completely insufficient to recognize the source as "mythologized."
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        usually of western european or eastern origin

        Western Europe, too, during this period did not particularly indulge in sources, according to the Slavs and in general ... But Byzantium - yes, well, this is understandable, with whom you communicate, you write about those. We must be glad that even the Greeks left us something about the Slavs.
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        on frank inventions of historians themselves,

        This is not to Edward. Frank inventions are Samsonov and Petukhov. This is where fantasy walks. Vashchenko writes, relying on real sources, both written and archaeological, of his own imagination, as the researcher should be, a minimum.
        1. Engineer April 9 2020 13: 08 New
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          Frank inventions are Samsonov and Petukhov.

          By the way, Samsonov’s latest article about the super-mega-super-uber of the Slavs was published in the Opinions section, not the historical one. Perhaps this is your merit)
          1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 13: 42 New
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            Quote: Engineer
            By the way, Samsonov’s latest article about the super-mega-super-uber of the Slavs was published in the Opinions section

            Apparently by mistake. sad
            It seems that she was later transferred to the “History”.
            1. Engineer April 9 2020 16: 02 New
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              Unfortunately, really rescheduled.
              Sorry, I was hoping for systemic shifts.
        2. Astra wild April 9 2020 15: 24 New
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          "fictions - Samsonov and Petukhov" to a certain extent Samsonov brought me here. Somehow I climbed the Internet and got some article by Samsonov, I began to watch and came here. Now I try NOT to READ it: it’s a very peculiar author
        3. Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 16: 52 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          Quote: Aleksandr72
          The Slavs themselves practically did not leave written sources.
          Not at all left.

          It’s just that you were ordered not to see them. You are not psychologically ready to see them.
          It’s just not given to you.
          1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 17: 41 New
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            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            It’s just not given to you

            I would love to see. Show. I would scream with joy if someone showed me something like that. But so far, apart from the Veles Book, which is an illiterate fake, no one has shown us anything ... It is difficult to predict what archaeologists will find there, but it is now clear that the Slavs did not have their own written language. Maybe there were some systems of signs that were far from written, used for ritual purposes in the performance of religious rites, but this is not written.
            1. Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 21: 56 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              But so far, apart from the Veles Book, which is an illiterate fake, no one has given us anything

              And who has proven that? Aren't you an hour?
              Except - "this cannot be, because it cannot be" there is no other evidence.
              1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 23: 50 New
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                Damn, you just surprise me with your aggressive ignorance. request
                What appears to be the Veles Book — pictures of poor quality — were studied by specialists: graphologists, linguists, etc. You may not know that modern linguistics is able to determine from the written text the time it was written to the accuracy of half a century, as well as the place it was written to the exact region, with reference to medieval Russia - to the princedom. Yes, they spoke differently there, in Novgorod, Smolensk, Kiev, Galich ... And they wrote as they said, there were no rules.
                So, studies of these specialists have shown that the so-called The Veles book was certainly written no earlier than the XNUMXth century, for it contains words that appeared precisely at that time. There is much more, read, you will be interested. The same thing with the way of writing. Well, it would have been written uniquely, but a hodgepodge of fonts from the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries was used.
                In short, study.
            2. Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 22: 31 New
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              Quote: Trilobite Master
              I would love to see.

              You requested a page from The Roads of the Gods, if you please. And "chop her nuts"
              = ... for many millennia in Europe and in all places of settlement of the Indo-Europeans, there were no borders or “iron curtains” that nations freely, willingly and energetically contacted each other, participated in interethnic processes in the most active way, and even what is commonly called cultural integration was carried out not in words but in practice - hundreds of thousands of examples. And it is especially important to understand that one of such peoples was our ancestors - Slavs, Pre-Slavs, Proto-Slavs (scientists can’t finally agree on the terminology and the corresponding chronology. But this will not hurt us, because the matter is not limited to terminology only).
              We have no right to exclude the largest ethnic massif of Europe from European history - one could understand why this was done in the 20s. with us or, say, in the 30-40s. in Nazi Germany, but nowadays it is unlikely that they can cross out the history of the ethnos that laid the foundation for at least ten to twelve Slavic peoples and nations. =
              What is wrong Petukhov? This one? -
              = Somewhere at the end of VIII, and even the X century. it’s not clear where the figure of the wild and brutal Eastern Slav comes from, as if he had fallen to the ground from heaven. So we see in the picture from the textbook a certain creature in a long-necked shirt, picking the ground with a rough wooden stick, and outwardly not even looking like a plow. This creature also picks mushrooms, hangs bobbins and with pointed twigs, beats fish in the river. Such is the idea that a young man receives about his ancestors - an idea that is not ten or sixty years old, but turns two hundred years into lunch, which was suitable for Millero-Schleserian times and which has been stubbornly dragged from the textbook to the textbook to this day. Truly an immortal scheme! =
              1. Engineer April 10 2020 16: 46 New
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                Somewhere in the end VIII, or even X at. it’s not clear where the figure of the wild and brutal Eastern Slav comes from, as if he had fallen to the ground from heaven.

                Never repeat this enchanting nonsense. This is not anywhere and your Rooster is a liar and a liar
                Here is the position of official science:
                Antes, they are also Wened, are mentioned by the 6th Century Historian Jordan, who tells about the events of the 4th century, Venets are mentioned by Tacitus in 1st century AD
                The oldest authentic Slavic culture in Prague - 5th century
                Antiquities similar to the Prague culture are found in Przeworsk culture from the 2nd-3rd centuries.
                Conclusion Slavs have been known since 1-2 centuries and they are younger than the same Germans for some one hundred or two hundred years.
                Security question - the author of the article Vashchenko -Millerovsky sang along with the forger?
                If so, why did the Slavs build complex siege machines at the very beginning of the 7th century and not dig into the ground with a stick and should they appear in 100 years? Why immortal scheme didn't work? Did the author of the article fail to receive a grant from the Vatican freemasons on time?
                1. Krasnoyarsk April 10 2020 18: 03 New
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                  Quote: Engineer
                  Never repeat this enchanting nonsense.

                  This, as you say "enchanting nonsense," is not said by Petukhov, but the textbooks of the history of secondary schools. Will you deny it? And this angers him. Like me, by the way. And the local "historians" echoed - the Slavs did not have written language, and they did not have weapons, swords, and they had no troops until the princely squad appeared, and it appeared with the prince, and this is the 8th century. Etc. etc.
                  I also, and for the umpteenth time, I say - I am not a supporter of FiNov and Petukhov. But I, apart from cursing and insulting them, did not meet with a scientific refutation of their statements anywhere. And inevitably the impression is that the OI has nothing to cover.
                  Quote: Engineer

                  Conclusion Slavs have been known since 1-2 centuries and they are younger than the same Germans for some one hundred or two hundred years.

                  But Petukhov claims the opposite. And proves it. Yes, and German archaeologists "swear" - wherever you dig (in Germany) everywhere you will come across Slavs.
                  So who should I, not a historian, believe? Vashchenko? And who is it? What fright should I believe him and Petukhov not?
                  Petukhov refers to the results of archaeological excavations in which he took part, refers to the work of linguists tracing the development of Indo-European languages ​​and worked on it himself. And what does Vashchenko refer to? For the same historians like him.
                  To my criticism of his article, I have the right, what answers? - An insult.
                  Why? Because he feels that the article is of poor quality.
                  1. Engineer April 10 2020 20: 43 New
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                    not Petukhov says, but textbooks on the history of secondary schools. Will you deny it?

                    Yes, I will and demand evidence that it is written in textbooks
                    Here is an example that the textbooks say otherwise
                    https://royallib.com/read/kuzmin_a/istoriya_rossii_s_drevneyshih_vremen_do_1618_guchebnik_dlya_vuzov_v_dvuh_knigah_kniga_pervaya.html#225280
                    But Petukhov claims the opposite. And proves it

                    To prove this, you need to provide evidence of the existence of Slavic culture older than Oksyvskaya, the oldest German. While there are none. Petukhov does not prove, he replaces the topic in the dispute. The Slavs in Germany are very well known. But it doesn’t follow from this that they were there before Germans.
                    1. Krasnoyarsk April 10 2020 22: 42 New
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                      Quote: Engineer

                      Yes, I will and demand evidence that it is written in textbooks

                      Aya-yay, it’s not good. You perfectly understood that we are talking about a Soviet school. A "History ....." A. Kuzmina published in 2003. By the way a good tutorial.
                      Quote: Engineer
                      Petukhov does not prove, he replaces the topic in the dispute.

                      Petukhov, if you read it "The Roads of the Gods", do not argue with anyone. He shows his vision of ancient history based on his study of sources.
                      Vashchenko also does not argue with Petukhov. He acts simply - insults the deceased. From my point of view, this is immoral. And after that, should I trust his opuses?

                      Quote: Engineer
                      The Slavs in Germany are very well known. But it doesn’t follow from this that they were there before the Germans.

                      I don’t know, maybe so. But only during excavations below the "Slavic layer" did the Germanic never occur. In any case, I have not heard of or read about this.
                      1. Engineer April 11 2020 12: 04 New
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                        You perfectly understood that we are talking about a Soviet school.

                        No, I don’t understand. That is, this does not apply to the current situation? So the legacy of the Miller-Schlezer is over?
                        But only during excavations below the "Slavic layer" did the Germanic never occur. In any case, I have not heard of or read about this.

                        Now hear and read if you want.
                        Natalia Gushchina "Secrets of the Rügen Slavs"
                        Article is on academia.edu
                        I don’t give a direct link, it is very long, such here are deleted along with the post
                        You can still read Schukin's “Gothic Way” Gothic antiquities on the same Rügen appear earlier than the Slavic — the August group of monuments
                      2. Engineer April 11 2020 12: 15 New
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                        Ganina, not Gushchina
                      3. Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 12: 18 New
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                        Quote: Engineer
                        Natalia Gushchina "Secrets of the Rügen Slavs"

                        Quote: Engineer
                        Schukin "The Gothic Way"

                        Thank you very much. I will definitely study it.
                2. Edward Vashchenko April 10 2020 20: 48 New
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                  I didn’t want to participate in this stupid argument: I believe in Petukhov because it’s ridiculous.
                  In a series of articles on Slavic history, I also have references to German archaeologists, while I am completely familiar with the historiography of German archeology:
                  Yes, and German archaeologists "swear" - wherever you dig (in Germany) everywhere you will come across Slavs.

                  What archaeologists have written it, links, works?
                  And I do not believe - I do not believe.
                  And what did they find at the excavations with Petukhov or whatever it was: a note, as in K. Bulychev's Guests from the Future: Kolya, a Slav?
                  In order not to write, say, absurdities, read here a short article about my work of historians at the Higher School of Economics, you may depart from the medieval: I believe - I do not believe.

                  hi
                  1. Krasnoyarsk April 10 2020 22: 48 New
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                    Quote: Edward Vashchenko

                    I didn’t want to participate in this stupid argument:

                    So do not participate.
                    I, too, did not want to answer you, but did not answer obvious stupidity -
                    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                    ... I believe in Petukhov because it is ridiculous.

                    just impossible.
                    I believe - this is not for me.
              2. Edward Vashchenko April 10 2020 20: 37 New
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                Security question - the author of the article Vashchenko -Millerovsky sang along with the forger?

                Bravo Denis!
            3. andrew42 16 June 2020 17: 19 New
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              "= Somewhere at the end of the XNUMXth, and even the XNUMXth century, it’s not clear where the figure of a wild and brutal Eastern Slav comes from, as if he had fallen from heaven on earth. So in the picture from the textbook we see a creature in a long-sleeved shirt picking rough ground a wooden stick, and outwardly not even like a plow. " - This is the real AGGRESSIVE Ignorance. When it is proposed as an axiom. Ultimately, all for the sake of this: the "stupid Russian music" must clean the "Karosh German boot".
        4. 3x3zsave April 9 2020 20: 05 New
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          I would not want to see the remains of the creature who tried to order something to the “Trilobite Master”.
  2. Bar1 April 9 2020 10: 02 New
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    the Greeks left a whole bunch of written sources, Plato, Thucydides, Herodotus, but there was no state left i.e. the very foundation upon which all this writing Greek fraternity was based.
    The Greeks do not have related peoples, do not have a vast territory, do not have those ship forests of which the "ancient Greeks" created their "triremes and fives". And the state of Greece itself arose only in the 19th century with, as usual with the German king. no one notices these inconsistencies of reality with scribble, but everyone believes that if you read thucydides and Herodotus, then this is science. No, this is pseudoscience.
    The Slavs, on the contrary, have no sources from the first millennium, and there are a lot of all kinds of suspicious lists of chronicles from the second millennium, which in a strange way lie in the OI. But the Slavs left a huge state with a history written not by the Russians.
    1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 13: 09 New
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      Quote: Bar1
      the Greeks left a whole bunch of written sources, Plato, Thucydides, Herodotus, but the state itself did not remain

      States, you know, have this property - they are born, age and die. The peoples who inhabited them are changing, transforming into other peoples, changing languages ​​and customs. In two thousand years, probably, there will be neither Russia, nor the USA, nor China, in any case, in the form, at least somewhat reminiscent of today, our distant descendants will have a different language, other customs that are completely different from ours, the language Pushkin will be for them, as now, classical Latin for the inhabitant of the London slums. And such a state - the Russian Federation - in a couple of thousand years with a probability of 99,9% will not. Does this mean that we do not exist now? laughing
      1. Bar1 April 9 2020 14: 10 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        States, you know, have this property - they are born, age and die.


        is it a lie, besides paper pseudo-states such as Greece, Carthage, Phenicia no one has died, at least one state name the real one that would die? There are none. States are transforming, others are emerging in these territories, there was Austria, Hungary became Austria and Hungary, there were Florence, Naples and Venice with Lombardy, it became Italy and so on.
        There is only one state of Tartaria, from which new states constantly grow, but it is this process of OI that is trying to hide from us.
        1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 14: 53 New
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          Quote: Bar1
          at least one state name real, which would die?

          And further:
          Quote: Bar1
          States are being transformed, others are emerging in these territories, there was Austria, Hungary became Austria and Hungary, there were Florence, Naples and Venice with Lombardy, Italy became and so on.

          Now, you are already starting to understand something.
          There was, for example, the empire of Charlemagne. Then again! - and she died, she was gone. In its place, other state entities appeared, each with its own language, with its own customs, etc. There was an ancient state of Rurikovich and it, too, by the beginning of the XII century. died, leaving behind a dozen completely independent principalities, or in European, kingdoms, rapturously slashing among themselves with even more eagerness than with their neighbors. The same Austria-Hungary, you are right. Now she is gone, this state has died, and not only Austria and Hungary have remained from it, but also much more ...
          And before that there was the Ancient Roman state, the state of Alexander the Great, Babylon, Phenicia, Carthage, Egypt - not to mention everyone. And all these were states, people lived in them, speaking such languages ​​that no one speaks anymore, and representing peoples that now no longer exist. And at the same time they are (or are not) the ancestors of those who live in their former territory now.
          Quote: Bar1
          There is only one state of Tartaria

          Exclusively in the painful fantasies of mind-mournful individuals affected by a complex of historical inferiority. There is none now, and never has been in world history. There are no coins, there are no seals, chronicles or annals, there is no literature, visual art, there is nothing but the fantasies of medieval cartographers. The old Russian state - yes, it was. The Mongol empire - was (also, incidentally, an example of a state that has sunk into oblivion), even the Chinese empire Si-Xia was. But Tartaria was not, as there were no peshegolovtsev, or one-armed and one-legged peoples who walked, rolling from hand to foot, which are indicated on the same maps.
          1. Bar1 April 9 2020 15: 15 New
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            Quote: Trilobite Master
            There is none now, and never has been in world history. There are no coins, there are no seals, chronicles or annals, there is no literature, visual art, there is nothing but the fantasies of medieval cartographers.


            what impudence.
            Tartaria was mentioned not only by cartographers, but also
            -Winsheim-World geography
            -Abulgachi-Bayadurkhan
            Encyclopedias Britannica and the Spanish Encyclopedia
            -There are tables of sea flags issued in Kiev.
            -Mavro Orbini Slavic Kingdom
            enough information to accuse your story of falsification.
            1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 15: 36 New
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              Did you get acquainted with these works? laughing
              Ready to read the links and quotes from their works on "Tartaria" and make out each. There is time. laughing
              1. Bar1 April 9 2020 15: 45 New
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                Quote: Trilobite Master
                Did you get acquainted with these works? laughing
                Ready to read the links and quotes from their works on "Tartaria" and make out each. There is time. laughing

                well so take and see what problems?
                1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 16: 32 New
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                  Quote: Bar1
                  what problems?

                  No problems. good Some of these works are even familiar to me. smile
                  The question is whether they are familiar to you. And if so, you will not be difficult to find there about Tartaria, right? And then, you know, they will lie on the new chronological sites - they won’t take it expensive. They write, they say Abulgazi Bagadirkhan wrote about Tartaria, but no, it turns out he didn’t write ...
                  Believing in our time is impossible for anyone, sometimes even for oneself. I can.

                  laughing
                  1. Bar1 April 9 2020 18: 47 New
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                    Quote: Trilobite Master
                    The question is whether they are familiar to you. And if so, you will not be difficult to find there about Tartaria, right?




                    there is also Plano Carpini



                    the title pages say Tatars, so there is confirmation.
                    1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 19: 00 New
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                      Quote: Bar1
                      it is said about the Tatars

                      And where about Tartaria? About the Tartarians? The fact that the Mongols even the Russian annals called Tatars (not Tartarians) is what I know.
                      Where exactly in your works is your Tartaria?
                    2. Bar1 April 9 2020 19: 06 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Quote: Bar1
                      it is said about the Tatars

                      And where about Tartaria? About the Tartarians? The fact that the Mongols even the Russian annals called Tatars (not Tartarians) is what I know.
                      Where exactly in your works is your Tartaria?

                      Plano Karnini has a second text in Latin, where the Tatars are translated as Tartars, but the Tartars respectively live in Tartaria.
                    3. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 19: 23 New
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                      Quote: Bar1
                      there the Tatars are translated, like the Tartars

                      That is, Carpini is the authority to which you are attentive. Already better. It remains only to read his notes and something will become clear. For example, the fact that the Tatars and the Mongols are one and the same. He directly speaks about this already in the title of his notes, but for the gifted he even left a special description of these same Mongols:
                      The appearance of persons is different from all other people. It is between the eyes and between the cheeks that they are wider than that of other people, but the cheeks protrude very much from the cheekbones; their nose is flat and small; eyes are small, and eyelashes are raised to eyebrows. In the belt, they are generally thin, with the exception of a few, and, moreover, a few, almost all of them are not tall. Everyone’s beard almost grows very small, yet some have small hair on their upper lip and beard, which they do not cut. On the top of their head they have a Humen like clerics, and they generally shave [the head] for three fingers of width from one ear to the other; these shaved places are connected to the aforementioned Humens; above the forehead, in the same way, everyone also shaves with two fingers of width; the same hair that is between the Humens and the aforementioned shaved place, they leave to grow up to the eyebrows, and on both sides of the forehead leave long hair, cutting off more than half; the rest of the hair is allowed to grow, like women. Of these hairs, they make up two braids and knotted each behind the ear. Their legs are also small.

                      Pure Slavic-Aryans, Cossacks-Tartarians, not otherwise. laughing
                    4. Bar1 April 9 2020 19: 37 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Pure Slavic-Aryans, Cossacks-Tartarians, not otherwise


                      in this Russia there are also such peoples, but they do not make politics and they did not build a world Russian culture, but such.



                      or such types

                    5. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 21: 18 New
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                      Poor Carpini - how unlucky he was. Around were all tall, fair-haired, big-eyed with broad beards, and he saw only what he described ... Or lied? Hush up? laughing
                    6. Bar1 April 9 2020 22: 55 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      Poor Carpini - how unlucky he was. Around were all tall, fair-haired, big-eyed with broad beards, and he saw only what he described ... Or lied? Hush up? laughing


                      of course.
                      The rise of the Tatar-Mongols in the understanding of the Olympic Games to the very heights of statehood, and then the rapid degradation to the primitive communal system, are miracles of the historical balancing act of the Olympic Games. It is clear to any beginning historian that this could not be so, that fraud and falsification took place.
                      Karpini’s plan, like all these “chronicles”, was certainly subjected to ideological treatment by the Romanov regime. But grains of truth remained, for example, that Tartaria WAS. In those days of 1825, when this edition was published, the state of Tartaria was still there and those falsifiers had not yet come to mind to deny the state of Tartaria itself, therefore, it was dirty about the little things.
                      However, of course, it’s no longer a trifle, the very name of tartaria is already fake, so they did not call themselves.
                    7. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 23: 53 New
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                      They poked his nose - immediately a conversation about fraud. Well, in general, I had no doubt that this would end. Goodbye for today. laughing
                    8. Bar1 April 10 2020 00: 46 New
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                      Quote: Trilobite Master
                      They poked his nose - immediately a conversation about fraud. Well, in general, I had no doubt that this would end. Goodbye for today. laughing

                      that is, tartaria?
  • Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 16: 41 New
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    Quote: Trilobite Master
    There was, for example, the empire of Charlemagne. Then again! - and she died

    Your brains are dead.
    What is an empire? Here's what your favorite VIKI says -
    Empire - a state with extensive colonial possessions (for example: the British Empire), or a large multinational entity controlled from one center - for example: the Ottoman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Russian Empire.
    To make it clearer, I explain: an empire is created from two or more state entities, each of which has its own language, culture, customs, etc.
    Time passes and
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    There was, for example, the empire of Charlemagne. Then again! - and she died

    But, state formations that make up this empire where to go? And nowhere! They remained, each with its own language, culture, and customs.
    So, political entities die, but not the people living on these lands. The "state of Rurik" died in your brain, and my ancestors, as they lived on these lands, have remained and nothing has changed for them, neither language, nor culture, nor customs.
    One more thing. How to spit in Petukhov. You better write something like his Roads of the Gods. Ali are not comfortable? Well, then, take at least one chapter from this work and “chop the nut”, and here we are pleased to read. And then we will draw conclusions. Or weak?
    1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 17: 56 New
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      I'm tired of saying that you need to learn how to read, instead of projecting your nonsense onto other people's thoughts. What you argue with, I never spoke or wrote.
      Just in case, I’ll explain. Empire is a state. And the people are people. The state is dying - the people are living. Moreover, the process of ethnogenesis itself is continuous. Ethnic groups merge and separate, peoples change names, languages, customs, in accordance with these changes, people are organized into states.
      And about the state of the Ruriks ... Well, well, you can probably call me its capital, its head, for example, well ... that year in 1200, for example, if it was a state.
      I don’t really want to waste time on Petukhov. There are many of you, if you please everyone, “cutting the nut” of his idols, which is generally simple, the rest will be offended.
      However, if your brotherhood will throw money to me, I’m ready to consider such an offer - after all, time will be wasted not in vain. Think about it.
      1. Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 18: 22 New
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        Quote: Trilobite Master
        There was an ancient state of Rurikovich and it, too, by the beginning of the XII century. died, leaving behind a dozen completely independent principalities,

        Quote: Trilobite Master

        And about the state of the Ruriks ... Well, well, you can probably call me its capital, its head, for example, well ... that year in 1200, for example, if it was a state.

        In my opinion there are no comments. You yourself understand something. And then, that was, it was not.
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        I don’t really want to waste time on Petukhov.

        Yes, who would doubt it. And what else to say if there is nothing to say.
        That spit in the deceased, the good he can’t answer, we easily.
        Come on, at least a chapter, at least one page, at least one paragraph. Well .. is it really necessary to break one paragraph for a giant historian?
        1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 19: 09 New
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          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          In my opinion there are no comments.

          I think so too. But you, apparently, again saw in the text what you usually see.
          I will explain. At the beginning of the XII century. the old Russian state, which had been breathing incense for more than half a century before, finally disintegrated and ceased to exist. That is, died.
          You write to me:
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          "State of Rurik" died in your brain

          Well, if I'm wrong -
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          you can probably call me his capital, his head, for example, well ... in that year in 1200, for example, if it was a state.

          You agree that 1200 is later than the "beginning of the XNUMXth century."
          According to Petukhov -
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Come on, at least a chapter, at least one page, at least one paragraph.

          Come on, of your choice. One page, purely for educational purposes. You post the text, and I comment on it. laughing
          1. Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 21: 37 New
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            [quote = Boss Trilobite]
            I think so too. But you, apparently, again saw in the text what you usually see. [/ Quote]
            No, I see what you wrote. And in two posts you managed to write the exact opposite - [quote = Krasnoyarsk] Quote: The owner of Trilobite
            There was an ancient state of Rurikovich and it, too, by the beginning of the XII century. died, leaving behind a dozen completely independent principalities, [/ quote]
            And -
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            And about the state of the Ruriks ... Well, you can probably tell me his capital, his head, for example, well ... in that year in 1200, for example, if it was a state. [/ Quote]
            That is, you have a state, then it was and it died, then you are questioning, "if it was a state," that is, it was not there. lol
            [quote = Boss Trilobite]
            One page, purely for educational purposes. [/ quote]
            Educate your children. Educator. ........
            I am not a historian and, unlike you, I don’t rush to the historian toga. But when I read, for example, Petukhov, I don’t find any logical inconsistencies and disagreements with him, which I see with you all the time.
            So, you would learn from him the logic of presentation and knowledge of the material, and not spit on the deceased.
            1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 23: 41 New
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              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              when I read, for example, Petukhov

              This is really scary ... laughing
              If you are so confused in my relatively simple constructions, then I don’t even imagine that you are subtracting it from Petukhov ...
              Let's go back to the Rurikovich.
              My thesis is that a single state finally ceased to exist at the beginning of the 1132th century. To be exact, with the death of Mstislav the Great in XNUMX
              You stated that this happened only in my brains. That is, you did not agree with my statement and it turns out that, in your opinion, a single state continued to exist after 1132. I suggested that you name the capital of this state and its ruler, since you think I'm wrong. So you didn’t like the result?
              If you still think that there are contradictions in my words, I will explain it specifically for you at the most primitive level. The state - Russia, which in historiography is usually called Kievan, by the name of its capital, ceased to exist, breaking up into many separate sovereign principalities-states with their capitals, leaders, and the state apparatus. If you think differently, name me the capital of the united Russian state and its leader for the year 1200.
              Everything. Think. yes
          2. Astra wild April 11 2020 21: 23 New
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            Michael, apparently a colleague in Krasnoyarsk, sees in the book only what he likes. However, this is typical of most people
  • Simargl April 9 2020 18: 37 New
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    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Now, you are already starting to understand something.
    I’m afraid that the NHPF has bitten him in Moscow.
    Why dig so deep?
    There was a Russian empire. At the beginning of the last century, he died.
    It was the USSR. At the end of the last century, died ...
    The Ottoman Empire lasted more than 700 years. Disappeared 100 years ago.
    Sikkim, in 1975 disappeared as a result of ... the wishes of the population ...
    1. Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 21: 48 New
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      Quote: Simargl
      I’m afraid that the NHPF has bitten him in Moscow.

      Nothing bite into my brain. And you, not understanding what it’s talking about, are building yourself smart.
      And it's about simple. According to the "trilobite" in the place of a disintegrated (deceased) empire, new states appear, with their own language, culture, and customs.
      Here you are, on the example of the USSR and show me the formation of new states. Maybe it's Lithuania? Which suddenly appeared? With language, culture, customs? Never been, and here you are. So what? Well, etc.
      1. Senior seaman April 10 2020 17: 27 New
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        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Here you are, on the example of the USSR and show me the formation of new states.

        Georgia. never has a state with that name and borders existed. The Russian Empire included separately the Kartli-Kakheti kingdom, the Imereti kingdom, the Principality of Guria, the Abkhaz Mtavarism and so on. Languages ​​before joining were different, as were customs. Almost out of the blue, a new nation was created from a conglomerate of tribes.
      2. Simargl April 10 2020 18: 44 New
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        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Nothing bite into my brain.
        Along the way, the rite of exorcism over you, still need to be carried out lol

        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        And you, not understanding what it’s talking about, are building yourself smart.
        Yes, I'm smart unprecedented, my opinion is beyond doubt, you can immediately carve on the tablets tongue

        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        According to the "trilobite" in the place of the disintegrated (deceased) empire, new states appear, with their own language, culture, customs.
        Holy is holy! Where did he say that? Why are you mixing everything together?
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        States, you know, have this property - they are born, age and die[dot, next sentence] The peoples who inhabited them are changing, transforming into other peoples, changing languages ​​and customs.
        There was a crowd of states, with their own languages, customs, culture, languages.
        They gathered together, called the USSR.
        A process has begun in which almost everyone has learned to speak the same universal language, not always forgetting their native ... exchange of culture, customs ...
        The USSR collapsed, breakaway education called itself to the extent of education and corruption (including Lithuania, which has all the attributes of the state, even if it depends on everyone and everything). The same Lithuania is inhabited by people endowed with some kind of culture and having a history. In addition, both culture and history are once started and / or invented. Normal people call the second option myth-making.
        1. Krasnoyarsk April 10 2020 20: 00 New
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          [quote = Simargl] In the process, the rite of exorcism over you still needs to be carried out [/ quote]
          Well, try it. The question is only small. Why over me? Or maybe over you? Here, after all, both sides have no 100% evidence. But even if out of 100 proofs of one theory one evidence can be called into question, then the whole theory is called into question. Is not it?
          What is happening now? The dances are around my wrongness, and there must be evidence of the author's rightness with additional arguments.
          quote = Simargl] Holy-holy! Where did he say that? [/ Quote]
          And here. It's just that you got the wrong quote.
          [quote = Boss Trilobite]
          There was, for example, the empire of Charlemagne. Then again! - and she died, she was gone. In its place, other state entities appeared, each with its own language, with its own customs, etc. [/ quote]
          And Lithuania, as it was a state before entering the USSR, remained after the exit. All with the same language, customs and culture. And no myth-making, everything is strictly according to the JI.
          After all, there are no myths in OI, right? laughing
          1. Simargl April 10 2020 20: 15 New
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            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Or maybe over you?
            I repeat:
            Quote: Simargl
            my opinion is beyond doubt, you can immediately carve on the tablets tongue


            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            But even if out of 100 proofs of one theory one evidence can be called into question, then the whole theory is called into question. Is not it?
            I don’t know where it works. If from 100 - 99 they prove, and 1 - not at all, then something with this last one is most likely not that.

            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Was for exampleEmpire of Charlemagne.
            Well, for example.

            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            And Lithuania, as it was a state before entering the USSR, remained after the exit.
            Uh ...

            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            All with the same language, customs and culture.
            Come on! But what about “everything flows, everything changes? Have the Lithuanians survived before entering the USSR and recovered after the collapse? So? Or do you take what is desired for reality?
            And what about the history of the Principality of Lithuania? How did you define the borders 1000 years ago, and no one changed them? All written texts for all 1000 years, the Lithuanian reads without straining?
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            And no myth-making, everything is strictly according to the JI.
            You have some kind of reading of OI.
            1. Krasnoyarsk April 10 2020 22: 17 New
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              Quote: Simargl

              Quote: Simargl
              my opinion is beyond doubt, you can immediately carve on the tablets

              Already carved, in basalt, sorry granite was not at hand wassat
              Quote: Simargl
              I don’t know where it works. If from 100 - 99 they prove, and 1 - not at all, then something with this last one is most likely not that.

              I do not agree here. This one can be so lethal when carefully considered. Well, all this is scholasticism, we can do without it.
              Quote: Simargl

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              There was, for example, the empire of Charlemagne.
              Well, for example.

              You do not understand - the quote is not mine. Be careful.
              Quote: Simargl

              Uh ...

              Without any E., its territory may decrease, increase, decrease again, be occupied, but ultimately it will remain Lithuania.
              According to the language. Does the language have changed beyond recognition?
              Why are you reading Lomonosov without strain? But he worked almost 300 years ago. And Lomonosov read texts in Russian, written without tension 600 years ago. Of course, the language is changing, but does this mean that with the collapse of the USSR, Lithuanian, during its stay in the USSR, changed beyond recognition in comparison with the language of the 18th century?
              I, with a little, I emphasize, with a little effort read the PVL in the original. And nothing, everything is clear.
            2. Simargl April 11 2020 04: 49 New
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              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              but in the end it’s all the same to remain Lithuania.
              Not quite.
              Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
              Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
              The Russian Empire.
              Germany.
              Republic of Lithuania.
              THE USSR.
              Lithuania.
              These are only political changes.
              Now try to do the same with Russia - be surprised.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              According to the language. Does the language have changed beyond recognition?
              Well, Ukrainian is like Russian. But it was one language. Unrecognizable?

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Why are you reading Lomonosov without strain?
              I read texts a little older without too much effort. Read more... - does not always mean understand. Here is the British need a dictionary.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              And Lomonosov read texts in Russian, written without tension 600 years ago.
              And advanced churchmen are doing it now ... and specialists. Lomonosov is not "without tension", but with preparation.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Of course, the language is changing, but does this mean that with the collapse of the USSR, Lithuanian, during its stay in the USSR, changed beyond recognition in comparison with the language of the 18th century?
              In fact, 50 years is not a very long time for a language. But over these 50 years, Russian has changed.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              I, with a little, I emphasize, with a little effort read the PVL in the original.
              Straight PVL ?! No one can read it at all, but you can! No way the Ivan the Terrible library is hiding somewhere! It’s just that there is no original - there are only lists not earlier than the XNUMXth century, which it’s already difficult to read, but it is also possible to insert in the annals of other principalities from earlier times.
              So: for reading you need to: study at least alphabetwhich is somewhat different, all sorts superscripts and other signs, the meanings of many obsolete and changed the meaning of words, Reduceof which there are many history, surprisingly. Those. read "without straining" will not work.
            3. Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 11: 24 New
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              Quote: Simargl
              These are only political changes.

              This is all that you paid attention to. But we are talking about language, customs, culture.
              Show, with evidence, changes in all of this.
              Quote: Simargl
              Well, Ukrainian is like Russian. But it was one language. Unrecognizable?

              So I am about the same. The language changed as a result of its development (I'm talking about Lithuania), but a new one did not form as a result of the collapse of the empire, as the "historian" claims.
              Quote: Simargl
              Here is the British need a dictionary.

              They are our William laughing Shakespeare and R. Burns read with a dictionary? wassat
              Quote: Simargl
              Lomonosov is not "without tension", but with preparation.

              Did he tell you about this?
              Quote: Simargl

              In fact, 50 years is not a very long time for a language. But over these 50 years, Russian has changed.

              So I am about the same! Remember the author - "with the collapse of the empire, new states appear (Lithuania ???) new languages ​​(Lithuanian ???) ..."
              Quote: Simargl
              only lists no earlier than the XNUMXth century,

              So for me it is - the original.
              "Monuments of literature of ancient Russia" 11 - beginning of 12 century.
              (Moscow "Fiction" 1978)
              The first page is the original language, the second is the modern language. And so the whole book. It is possible to find out if I understood correctly what I read on the "original"
              It's a pity the scanner doesn’t work for me now, otherwise I would have “dropped” the page for you - read, enjoy.
              This is to say that language, not to mention customs, cannot change so quickly that what is written in the 15th century is impossible, not for a specialist, to read and understand what is written.
            4. Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 11: 40 New
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              [quote = Simargl But over the past 50 years, Russian has changed. [/ quote]
              Why do you think so? The language has not changed! The fact that a certain number of new words appeared in it (mainly foreign language) does not mean that the language has changed.
              Remember that of our youth, slang has strengthened in the modern language? And think, what of the modern youth slang will be strengthened in the language in the future? Only prof. slang, which is directly related to the development of science and technology. But it has always been so. This is not a change in language, it is its development. The foundation then remains. And after 300 years, I am sure that Lomonosov will be read and understood without a dictionary and translator.
            5. Simargl April 12 2020 06: 34 New
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              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              This is all that you paid attention to.
              Excuse me, are you friends with your head?
              Quote: Simargl
              It only political changes.
              Be sure to paint for the unreasonable children that ... "these are [listed] only political changes, [and there are also changes in culture, language, territory, genetic, etc.]". You are trying to win the argument by any means. That's noticeable.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              But we are talking about language, customs, culture.
              Show, with evidence, changes in all of this.
              I am not an expert on Lithuanians and logs. For evidence that you don’t like, because they will be from the "adepts" of official history, to experts ... at least to historians.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              The language changed as a result of its development (I'm talking about Lithuania), but a new one did not form as a result of the collapse of the empire, as the "historian" claims.
              Suddenly languages ​​like Esperanto or Ukrainian form. Living languages, however, change gradually. The same Lithuanian also changed gradually. And before entering the USSR, he was a little different. Just as it will be different in 50 years. In addition, you understand completely in a perverted form written by a "historian".

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Do they read our William, Shakespeare and R. Burns with a dictionary?
              I’ll tell you more: they are listening to their politicians with a dictionary wassat
              But in the Williams, their Shakespeare language has changed, although not radically.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              So I am about the same! Remember the author - "with the collapse of the empire, new states appear (Lithuania ???) new languages ​​(Lithuanian ???) ..."
              No. You do not understand what. The state of Lithuania did not exist before the USSR. You are completely in a perverted form understand what was written by the "historian." The above processes are not required to occur either simultaneously or without fail. Take LDNR. In fact, they are already a separate state, they speak Russian, but they are not Russia.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              So for me it is - the original.
              Yeah ... just name, please, which of these "originals" is the original for you. It’s just that they differ quite a bit both in language and in content.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              what was written in the 15th century is impossible, not for a specialist, to read and understand what is written.
              In full - no. Not only is the text hard to read, so a quarter of words without a dictionary for that era don't understand.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              "Monuments of literature of ancient Russia" 11 - beginning of 12 century.
              Наслаждайтесь: http://publ.lib.ru/ARCHIVES/P/%27%27Pamyatniki_literatury_Drevney_Rusi%27%27/Pamyatniki_literatury_Drevney_Rusi._01.XI_-_nachalo_XII_veka.(1978).[pdf-fax].zip

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Why do you think so? The language has not changed! The fact that a certain number of new words appeared in it (mainly foreign language) does not mean that the language has changed.
              What has changed does not mean that it has changed ... it is not even feminine - it is an alternative logic. Do you know that the language has changed so much that it took a dictionary to publish? So study the topic, or else laugh.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              This is not a change in language, it is its development.
              This is not change - this is development ... but development is ossification, preservation?

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              And think, what of the modern youth slang will be strengthened in the language in the future?
              You don’t know how language develops ... I do too, but I have a philologist on my side tongue
            6. Krasnoyarsk April 12 2020 12: 55 New
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              [quote = Simargl] Excuse me, are you friends with your head? [/ quote]
              Not always. Do you always? laughing
              [quote = Simargle] ​​You are trying to win the argument by any means. This is noticeable. [/ Quote]
              No, I just want to consider all the components. In the details. For better understanding. First of all mine.
              [quote = Simargl] Living languages ​​are changing gradually. [/ quote]
              What am I talking about?
              [quote = Krasnoyarsk]
              So I am about the same! Remember the author - "with the collapse of the empire, new states appear (Lithuania ???) new languages ​​(Lithuanian ???) ..." [/ quote]
              And after that I - [quote = Simargl]. In addition, you are completely in a perverted form understand what was written by the "historian." [/ Quote]
              [quote = Simargl] But the William Shakespeare language has changed, although not radically. [/ quote]
              You know, Japanese and Chinese, too.
              [quote = Simargl] The State of Lithuania did not exist before the USSR. [/ quote]
              In 1920-1922, the State of Lithuania was recognized by the international community. In 1922, a constitution was adopted in Lithuania, providing for the creation of a parliamentary republic. In 1923, a census was conducted.
              [quote = Simargl] it was. You are completely in a perverted form understand what was written by the "historian." The listed processes are not required to occur either [/ quote]
              I read what is written. No more, but no less.
              [quote = Simargl] Yeah ... just name, please, which of these "originals" is the original for you. [/ quote]
              This is the case when - and the old woman is a hole. Indeed, the word "original" is inappropriate in any sense. recourse
              Mine - Why did you get this? The language has not changed! [/ quote]
              Sorry, the particle is NOT a mistake. On the "machine", it happens, which is already there. I do not believe that you did not understand this.
              [quote = Simargl] This is not a change - this is development ... but development is ossification, preservation? [/ quote]
              Decided to ernichat?
              [quote = Simargl] You do not know how the language develops ... I do too, but I have a philologist on my side [/ quote]
              Happy for you.
            7. Simargl April 12 2020 19: 03 New
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              Yeah ... it's hard to pull a hippo out of a swamp ...

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Do you always?
              I do not do self-diagnosis - there are specialists. I can hide ... I’m easier now: everyone’s self-isolation wassat

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              For better understanding. First of all mine.
              What language is it in? In Russian, this is not right (if I correctly assumed that you want to say ... although there are several interpretations).

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              No, I just want to consider all the components.
              Well, the logic must be strictly applied, and not alternative.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              What am I talking about?
              request

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              In 1920-1922, the State of Lithuania was recognized by the international community.
              Lithuanian republic. Lithuania has appeared recently. In addition, I have listed political entities where there is no “Lithuania” state.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              You know, Japanese and Chinese, too.
              How is it known? They have mastered phonetic / alphabetic writing not so long ago.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              I read what is written. No more, but no less.
              Reading does not mean understanding. The listed processes do not have to occur simultaneously.
              Let's take Lithuania as an example ...
              Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The Baltic tribes were digging up Slavic territories ... what language did they have there? First closer to German, and later?
              Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The language did not change, or again the influence of the Slavic and other Poles?
              The Russian Empire. Russian had no influence?
              Germany. The German certainly didn’t penetrate much ... he was originally there ...
              Republic of Lithuania. Oh...
              THE USSR. Again isolated from Russian?
              Lithuania. Yes ... here is self-isolation and fixation of the tongue ... or not?
              And this is only in terms of language and political formations ...

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              This is the case when - and the old woman is a hole.
              Moreover, this is the case when you read "in the original" ... an adaptation where all the letters are standardized, reduced to uniformity, distinguishable. Well, gaps in stock. Try to read the original text of the 15th century - it is difficult without training. Even just make out the words.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              I do not believe that you did not understand this.
              You have such "mistakes" repeated.
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Decided to ernichat?
              No. A little higher, you “fixed” your “mistake”.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Happy for you.
              I like it too. I even got married just in case bully
            8. Krasnoyarsk April 12 2020 21: 12 New
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              Quote: Simargl
              In Russian, so wrong

              No right! In a dispute, the opponent rolls out an argument that he did not know before, and this argument enriches me with knowledge. wassat Well, I'm a vampire in this regard ... what really ... laughing But seriously ... There is a certain complex detail (in technology). You see her in full view, I'm in profile, someone from above and nobody in isometry. Arguing about the appearance of the part, we complement the vision of each. And if the argument does not reach the banal scuffle, then we have a chance to speculatively present the detail in isometry. Therefore, the argument, for me, is not for the sake of argument, not for the sake of proving my innocence, but for the sake of a better understanding of the issue.
              Quote: Simargl
              I do not do self-diagnosis

              In vain. A critical look at your own person is very useful.
              Quote: Simargl
              Well, the logic must be strictly applied, and not alternative.

              This is from the category - if I do not want to hear the opponent, then I will not hear him.
              Quote: Simargl

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              What am I talking about?
              request
              From there.
              Quote: Simargl
              Republic of Lithuania. Lithuania has appeared recently.

              How does the difference between the Republic of Lithuania and Lithuania affect the Lithuanian language?
              It's about him. It was he who "appeared" as a result of the collapse of the USSR (By analogy with the "collapse of the empire" of the "historian")
              Quote: Simargl
              How is it known? They have mastered phonetic / alphabetic writing not so long ago.

              What does the letter have to do with it? It's about the language that people speak.
              Quote: Simargl

              Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The Baltic tribes were digging up Slavic territories ... what language did they have there? First closer to German, and later?

              Here! That’s what your “historian” trouble is. - peremptory! With what a fright - closer to the German? Or maybe the Finno-Ugric?
              I understand that if we sat against each other, we would very quickly come to an understanding. And so, then you "point blank" do not hear me.
              Therefore, I propose to leave this "battlefield" not captured by anyone.
              I wish you all the best to live in spite of any viruses, with or without a crown.
              hi
            9. Simargl April 12 2020 21: 50 New
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              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              No right!
              Nude Nude!
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              For better understanding. First of all mine.
              For a better understanding [what? subject] Mine ... [whose? Of yours] ... delirium turns out: Do you want to better understand your point of view?
              As I understand it, you want to understand the subject, then you need to say:
              - For a better understanding [of ethnogenesis, state formation, or history in general]. First of all, by me [of the subject, problem, universe].
              Or are you imposing an opinion, though?

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              This is from the category - if I do not want to hear the opponent, then I will not hear him.
              No. This is from the category of "we speak correctly" and "we reason correctly", and not "draw the desired conclusions from any examples."

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              How does the difference between the Republic of Lithuania and Lithuania affect the Lithuanian language?
              This is a twist! But, by and large, this "small" difference is a piece of rich history.
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              It was he who "appeared" as a result of the collapse of the USSR
              Yeah! And before that - disappeared wassat

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              What does the letter have to do with it? It's about the language that people speak.
              I recommend reading it very carefully. Better to think a few times. In the meantime, I’ll try to chew (I don’t believe that it makes sense / succeed).
              Phonetic / alphabetical writing gives at least some idea of ​​the sound of the language. Pictogram / hieroglyphic - absolutely not tied to phonetics! Hieroglyphs may not change for thousands of years, and phonetics - radically over hundreds. If this is not clear ... the point is to argue with you about this?
              Those. I repeat: no one knows how the Chinese spoke before writing in alphabetical writing began. When it started? 300 years ago? 200?

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              That’s what your “historian” trouble is. - peremptory!
              In relation to delirium - yes. To controversial things - open to debate.

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              With what a fright - closer to the German? Or maybe the Finno-Ugric?
              Where is my peremptory here? Baltic group - the Finno-Ugric group is not included in it. Estoooontsy enter there. With the German got excited, but the extinct Prussian enters there (in the Baltic).

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              And so, then you "point blank" do not hear me.
              No. I can hear it point blank. But with the logic you have - like the Gonzo from the Muppets wassat

              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Therefore, I propose to leave this "battlefield" not captured by anyone.

              I already said: take the tablets, you can granite, and carve my opinion, the only correct one.
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              I wish you all the best to live in spite of any viruses, with or without a crown.
              And you do not get sick! drinks
  • Astra wild April 11 2020 21: 29 New
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    "rite of exorcism" - the expulsion of demons. Catholics had ts "certified" specialists. I read about this rite in a novel
  • Astra wild April 9 2020 15: 09 New
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    Mikhail, (Trilobite) you're actually right, but it’s psychologically difficult for me to "digest": "probably there will be neither Russia, nor the USA, nor China, in any case, in a form that somehow resembles today." I understand it with my mind, but I don’t perceive it with my heart. I DO NOT WANT
    1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 15: 40 New
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      We will not see this, fortunately or unfortunately ... I will say more - our planet itself is not eternal. And sooner or later there will be NOTHING at all. smile
      I don’t think it’s worth being upset because of this. smile
      1. Pane Kohanku April 9 2020 16: 32 New
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        I will say more - our planet itself is not eternal.

        I watched Riddick last night - now, in principle, I can imagine what will happen, according to your words. what Desert and dinosaurs!wink and Viktor Nikolaevich with glasses and a doquil, defeating monsters drinks
    2. Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 16: 45 New
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      Quote: Astra wild
      Michael, (Trilobite) you're actually right,

      What is he right about? Even in flawed history, we are more than a thousand years old. During this time we have not died. What makes you think that in two thousand we will die? These trilobites have long died out, and we are and will be!
      1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 17: 29 New
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        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        What makes you think that in two thousand we will die?

        Well, you, as a class of those who cannot read, will live forever. laughing
        Two thousand years later, I wrote, there will be no Russia, the USA and China in the form in which they exist now. Just like the Roman Empire did not, for example.
        And the fact that the planet is not eternal, like everything else in the universe, so this cataclysm is not expected very soon. While the sun goes out there ... laughing Maybe mankind will have time to master the neighboring systems, only it will be another humanity, no more similar to ours than we are Cro-Magnons.
        You learned how to add letters, but you don’t have read yet. Try it, it’s interesting to get acquainted with other people's thoughts, and not with the projection of your own delirium on objective reality.
        1. Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 17: 49 New
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          Quote: Trilobite Master
          You learned how to add letters, but you don’t have read yet.

          So where to us - illiterate. Here you are - a giant of thought and an ORACLE, though not Delphic, but similar, similar.
          Well, so what about scientifically based criticism of Petukhov? Except how to spit on him. We are waiting, sir, in several parts, with a prologue and an epilogue.
        2. Astra wild April 11 2020 21: 33 New
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          Mikhail, you still have a vicious character: “as they applied, the projection of your own delirium onto objective reality”. I can't do that
          1. Trilobite Master April 12 2020 00: 05 New
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            Quote: Astra wild
            I can't do that

            smile Good evening, Vera. hi
            Do you want to? smile
            Then you also have an "evil character", just in my tongue there are fewer bones. smile
      2. Deniska999 April 9 2020 19: 29 New
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        Explain one thing. Suppose, in the Hannibal era, there was no Slavic state. But Carthage and Rome existed. Are you not comfortable with the fact that the Slavic state is younger than them? Why arrange these attempts every time with a stolen story.
        1. Krasnoyarsk April 9 2020 21: 51 New
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          Quote: Deniska999

          Suppose, in the Hannibal era, there was no Slavic state.

          Are you sure about that?
    3. Simargl April 9 2020 18: 39 New
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      Quote: Astra wild
      I DO NOT WANT
      belay
      laughing
      And have to!
      The USSR also did not want to lose everything.
  • kalibr April 9 2020 20: 40 New
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    Quote: Bar1
    But the Slavs left a huge state with a history written not by the Russians.

    What are they "horned animals", however!
  • Pissarro April 10 2020 06: 07 New
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    do not have those ship forests of which the "ancient Greeks" created their "triremes and fives"


    I understand that all sorts of Fomenko-Petukhov can brainwash ignorant comrades, but the presence of forests in Greece can only be denied by a specially gifted character)
    Pine trees grow splendidly in Greece, and throughout 2019, the country struggled with forest fires. But it is ordered to deny the obvious to the leaders of the totalitarian sects of the alternative
  • Astra wild April 9 2020 14: 56 New
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    Sergey, but the rules of the site allow you to voice questions and your own opinion
  • Bully April 16 2020 22: 27 New
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    Why reinvent the wheel. Inquisitive people have always been interested in this topic. There is a "History in an Twisted Form" by Sergey Lesnoy. This is where the power of mind, clarity and sharpness of thinking are felt. Another question is why articles of history interpreters that look more like "semolina" come out with enviable consistency in VO?
  • Old partisan April 9 2020 06: 32 New
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    This is not true.
    We Slavs were wild as monkeys were. If not for these two morons from Greece, they would not have been able to write. And what kind of history can the Slavs have? Only alternative.
    1. Cryvedco April 9 2020 08: 03 New
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      In, the voice of a rational person. And then all kinds of Dolboslavs will run away and begin to ascribe to themselves some victories, scientific and technological achievements, even, damn it, culture! By the way, Procopius of Caesarea is an agent of the Kremlin, if anyone does not know. I am a friend of the daughter of the Byzantine emperor, everything is not so clear here.
    2. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 13: 19 New
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      Quote: Old Partisan
      If not for these two moron

      Fomenko and Nosovsky, who have broken a huge hole in the bottom of historical science, thanks to which we are now forced to periodically see the "historical" opuses of zadornov, prokopenko and other chudinovy ​​with roosters, the level of historical literacy in the country would be much higher.
      As for Cyril and Methodius, show me at least one monument of Russian writing of the century, say, at least IX, not to mention the earlier ones, and with genuine joy I agree with you - there was writing, they knew how to write. But no ... But no court, as they say no.
      It’s not worth it to say that the churchmen burned everything. This is an excuse for completely killed Dolboslavs. Nobody burned anything about Zeus and Odin, only Christians offended Perun and Yarila for some reason. wassat
      1. Tamparu April 9 2020 20: 02 New
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        I will intervene a little in your debate ... hi
        Good. I understand that you do not really accept the works of Fomenko with Nosovsky .... Then I would like to hear your opinion about the work of Vitaliy Sundakov? After all, his works, his activities in his own attempt to realize and try to convey to us that, thanks to his research, roughly "digging up", are contrary to traditional history !!! Having familiarized with his works and not diving deep and wide, you understand that they really "soar" us for a long time !!! Sorry for my french !!! hi
        By the way, he has his own very clear interpretation of the phrase "Cyril and Methodius".
        PS For those who are not aware of Vitaly Sundakov, I give the first link that came to his work, a lecture on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvc027aduew&list=PL054n382lh6d-b-ebGNkoHqVVe0PtKFyG&index=13&
  • Korsar4 April 9 2020 08: 37 New
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    Very interesting. Bit by bit collected.
    Was it a revelation to use the tree trunk as a battering ram, or is the human resources of the attackers more important and the confidence that it will lead to success?
    1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 13: 58 New
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      I think that masonry cannot be pierced with simple wood, in the second part I write about this in more detail.
      hi
      1. Korsar4 April 9 2020 14: 08 New
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        According to physics, mass and acceleration must be considered. And, accordingly, the strength of the tree itself and the strength of the masonry. I believe in a good oak or larch.

        Interestingly, experiments can be put, or can be simulated?
        1. Engineer April 9 2020 15: 09 New
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          According to physics, mass and acceleration must be considered.

          And the type of shock is elastic - inelastic and load distribution in the thickness of the wall. You can simulate, but the validity of the model is in question. The experiment is expensive.
          From the history
          The ram tree was always used in tandem with something solid for the knob. They tried to work against the gate, but they also broke the walls
          It shows how an Assyrian ram breaks a wall. But as far as I remember, typical walls of that time were using clay instead of mortar.
          http://xlegio.ru/siege-machinery/poliorketika-and-paraskeuastika/assyrian-siege-machinery/

          The Romans used the largest ram of Nikon in the Judean War (apparently with a standard ram head from a bronze cast, but very large)
          They were opposed by powerful block stone walls with lime mortar.
          Nikon cracked the city wall in a few days. Against the temple wall, even he was powerless.
          Even earlier, typical legion rams could not defeat one of the towers of Jerusalem
          1. Korsar4 April 9 2020 15: 31 New
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            About Assyrian rams on the site already was.

            Whether the ram tips were cast by the Slavs by this time is a question.
            1. Engineer April 9 2020 15: 54 New
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              Just guess.
              My opinion is that they were hardly cast, but they were probably clad in metal. Hardness of the impact surface is very important.
        2. Krasnoyarsk April 10 2020 10: 17 New
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          Quote: Korsar4

          +3
          According to physics, mass and acceleration must be considered. And, accordingly, the strength of the tree itself and the strength of the masonry. I believe in a good oak or larch.

          Why only oak and larch? Acacia and ash are also very suitable for this.
          1. Korsar4 April 10 2020 10: 50 New
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            Possible.

            I’m trying to imagine how long the ram should be, what is the minimum diameter in the upper cut. And was it easier to build rams on the spot, or move around with them.
            1. Krasnoyarsk April 10 2020 12: 19 New
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              Quote: Korsar4
              And was it easier to build rams on the spot, or move around with them.

              So it was, if it was. They didn’t pull the ram out of the house. Constructed from local material. There were no fools, although they only descended “yesterday” from a tree, according to our local “historians”.
      2. 3x3zsave April 9 2020 20: 17 New
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        The stone is different, as is the binder.
      3. Pissarro April 10 2020 06: 22 New
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        The rams usually pierced the gate. Gate loop weak point
  • 3x3zsave April 9 2020 08: 40 New
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    Thanks Edward!
    Despite the signature under the first illustration, I understand that some elements of the figure suggest archaeological sources?
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka April 9 2020 11: 58 New
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      Good day to all !!!
      I join the comment of Anton!
      According to Edward’s drawing, I’m afraid to assume that everything drawn is taken from archaeological sources, but the author made sure of himself and marked the illustration (not reconstruction).
      I personally have a question for the siege ladder. For some reason, the crossbars are tied from the bottom (bowstrings), and not from the top. This is not criticism, but the observation of a village man.
      Regards, Vlad!
      1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 13: 46 New
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        Vladislav!
        Greetings!
        Already taken into account - but in this article I will not correct the picture.
        I drew according to the sketch - there it was)))
        Yours faithfully, hi
        1. Mihaylov April 9 2020 17: 13 New
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          Edward, a completely different era, but a similar plot - the Assyrians storm the city (from the Roman Museum):

        2. 3x3zsave April 9 2020 18: 37 New
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          And more, Edward! Where is the stamp in the picture, forgot? request
          1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 18: 38 New
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            Anton! Sadovaya my head - just forgot, in a hurry)))
            By the way, he made corrections to the shooter: he wrote his name
            YOU are a vigilant Falcon!
            1. 3x3zsave April 9 2020 18: 56 New
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              Damn, now they are also branded an "Indian" !!! laughing
              1. bubalik April 9 2020 19: 21 New
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                ,,, Indian on the tank what originally smile
                1. 3x3zsave April 9 2020 19: 29 New
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                  Of course, they didn’t have tanks, but it’s worth remembering “talking with the wind”.
                  By the way, Sergey, the topic for the article.
    2. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 12: 39 New
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      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Thanks Edward!

      Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
      I join the comment of Anton!

      I join too. smile
      At the same time, I note that all the events described in the article relate to those Slavs whom we call "southern".
      It would be interesting to know what our direct ancestors were doing at that time - the Eastern Slavs and, partly, the Western ones, namely those who later created the state in which we now live.
      1. Engineer April 9 2020 13: 01 New
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        It would be interesting to know what our direct ancestors were doing at that time - the Eastern Slavs and, partly, the Western,

        Data is provided only by archeology. 7-8 centuries for the Eastern Slavs is the Luka-Raikovets and Volyntsev cultures
        can be found in a good review work by Alekseev
        https://historylib.org/historybooks/Sergey-Alekseev_Slavyanskaya-Evropa-V-VIII-vekov/77
        We know very little, if briefly

        PS in the comments there is some kind of coven of supporters of Vedic Russia, Slavic Reich, and so on.
        Spring Fever?
        Michael not all exponentially flogged in past topics?
        1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 13: 47 New
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          Quote: Engineer
          Spring Fever?

          I don’t know, I’m surprised myself. Well, Bar, but then a whole brood immediately jumped out, and the callsigns were mostly familiar. Has the average temperature in the hospital jumped? request
        2. 3x3zsave April 9 2020 18: 48 New
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          Spring Fever?
          Denis, my respect! Everything is much worse! Self-isolation !!! Just imagine: a man is sitting at home, he has already washed down his wife to a pre-suicidal state, he completely took out the brain for children, even a cat huddled under a sofa (it doesn’t fit the bowl, it’ll finish eating the baseboard) ... And then, it’s done !!! Article Vashchenko! Well, how to get past such a gift of fate ???
          1. Engineer April 9 2020 18: 58 New
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            Good evening,
            There are hot topics. About good Stalin and bad Khrushchev. About politics and economics. Take a walk, have fun, arrange a cabin. No, they’re climbing here. There used to be one Bar, but I treat him like a nachkhim on a submarine. And then the Mongol invasion is direct, as illiterate as it is aggressive.
            1. 3x3zsave April 9 2020 19: 16 New
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              There used to be one bar,
              This is you recently on the forum. During it it was such a character as “Venya” (very active, by the way), he generally considered himself a Neanderthal!
      2. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 13: 51 New
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        It would be interesting to know what our direct ancestors were doing at that time - the Eastern Slavs and, partly, the Western ones, namely those who later created the state in which we now live.

        Michael,
        I welcome, slowly, but I hope confidently, I am going to this. The second part of the article will be about strengthening our ancestors in Eastern Europe.
        Not all historiography is available to me, I read a lot of new things, YOU don’t see references - but they are in the original of my article to every “sneeze”, or whether it’s the case in Ancient Russia - my element is there - I’m tearing it there
        Regards
        hi
        1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 15: 43 New
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          Quote: Edward Vashchenko
          there and tear

          So that's great. I am always happy to read your articles. Thanks. hi smile
    3. Engineer April 9 2020 12: 58 New
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      some elements of the figure suggest archaeological sources

      Sure, but the elements themselves are very few.
      The ax of the Slav is most likely taken from the Kazan article, already laid out a link to it in the previous topic
      The Byzantine helmets are standard spangels, they are also sometimes segmented composite
      1. Engineer April 9 2020 13: 11 New
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        PS
        The Slav has a shield not a fist grip. Although we know very little about them. Perhaps the author will explain his choice. Or maybe not - he wrote - NOT RECONSTRUCTION
      2. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 13: 45 New
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        Greetings Denis,
        exactly,
        how nice that M.Kazansky sent me this article)
        1. Engineer April 9 2020 15: 59 New
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          Good afternoon, edward
          Kazan has excellent articles in terms of systematization and visibility. Everything is cataloged and marked on maps.
          I think it would be worthwhile to indicate it in the sources. Not only because of the correctness, but also because it should be recommended for reading to all those interested. It is NOT "a lot of bukf" and a lot of information for consideration.
          It is somewhat surprising that despite the scarcity of archaeological finds, the esteemed Mikhail Kazan supporter of the existence of squads among the Slavs in the 6-8 centuries. His opinion certainly carries weight.
          1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 16: 31 New
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            I already pointed out, in the previous article, I did not use this one. I already wrote here, the site does not show how many links I have: to each sneeze.
            Now, when one article about gray is about weapons, I don’t agree with everything with Kazan, in particular about the squad, as mentioned above, there will be many references to a number of his works.
            hi
    4. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 13: 31 New
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      Anton, thanks!
      Yes, a little written, a little archeology.
      Sword - similar to the Byzantine VI-VII centuries. , helmets - spangelhelms, I wrote an article here on VO about all the finds of the VI century. (V-VI and VI - beginning of the VII centuries), there are many finds in the present and already "then" lands of the Slavs: two are kept in Bratislava, there are many from the Balkans.
      I'm not talking about whether they used it or not - there is no exact data, but if they were in the same territories, why not?
      The “Romans” have both helmets according to Pixida from the Hermitage of the VI century.
      Ax - a rare ax from the Slavic settlement - Zimno, most likely the beginning of the VII century. About Zimno and other early Slavic fortifications - this is in the next article.
      I copied the details from the excise - that's why the stairs are like that.
      Yours faithfully, hi
      1. 3x3zsave April 9 2020 19: 21 New
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        Well, it’s not me who “dug through” the stairs ...
  • Mikhail3 April 9 2020 08: 56 New
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    The development of the siege of the Slavs (according to available evidence in historical sources) shows how in a very short period of time they were able to master a rather complicated military craft,
    I admit, I didn’t look at this waste further. The brilliant idea of ​​historians at the moment is as follows. For thousands of years, the Slavs lived in the forest, prayed to the wheel and banged with a stone ax (one on all Slavic tribes) at the crown of the head.
    Then in the divine West the Greatest of the Greats Western Civilization flourished. The vile Slavs got out of their craped forest and (for a "short period of time"), carrying their bloody idols at the ready, rushed to gut the western cities ...
    It is impossible to argue with such a "point of view." If your opponent does not have any signs of mind at all, then he cannot be persuaded. There is nothing to convince simply. I do not advise you to waste time retelling the manuals of the customer. It can be read in many other "works" of this kind on various other issues. Let the author simply walk in the forest.
    1. Old partisan April 9 2020 09: 39 New
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      Yes, yes, the most ancient were Jews who were slaves to the Egyptians. And then the Greeks Italians, Germans, Franks, Anglo-Saxons of course. And then the ancient Poles and Ukrainians with the Romanians and then Prince Vladimir led us out of the monkey house.
      1. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 13: 39 New
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        Quote: Old Partisan
        and then Prince Vladimir led us out of the monkey

        I, I mean, not only you personally, but also many others, apparently Prince Vladimir forgot to withdraw.
        You, like the previous speaker (Michael3), also, probably, didn’t look. And, like him, a long time ago. And the fact that they "looked" did not understand. However, I think that you most likely gained such confidence in the “incorrectness” of classical history not by studying the works of historians themselves, but by tasting the fecal mass of what I call pseudo-history, bearing in mind all sorts of phenomena and other samson-rooster fetid cesspools.
        Do not believe them. They all lie and, first of all, they lie about what the real historical science says. All that nonsense that you deigned to voice sarcastically in your comment has nothing to do with the real story, and you probably know better where you got it from.
    2. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 13: 29 New
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      Quote: Mikhail3
      I admit, I didn’t look at this waste further.

      And, in fact, why? You already know the ingenious idea of ​​historians (it is not clear where it came from, you "didn’t look"), so you can defecate without looking. However, this approach does not surprise me at all - the level of your intelligence and knowledge in the field of the humanities has long been known to me, like many here. Only that naive frankness with which you confess your own ignorance, considering it your indisputable advantage, is surprising.
  • Silhouette April 9 2020 10: 01 New
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    Another attempt to pull an owl on a globe. The evidence is based on assumptions. All these
    It can be assumed that this situation was due to the fact that ......
    We can assume that

    The Slavs broke the wall and captured it. How did this happen?

    Perhaps with the help of a ram
    speak for themselves.
  • Caretaker April 9 2020 10: 05 New
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    ... whether there was a “turtle” over the besiegers, or did they act pickaxes and crowbars, only under the guise of shields and shooters.

    How often do archaeologists find picks and crowbars? What did they look like at that time?
    1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 13: 36 New
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      Good afternoon,
      picks, crowbars, shovels - there are many trench tools, most often, naturally Roman or Late Roman, right offhand, seen in Cologne (Archaeological Museum) and in Karnuntum (Roman camp in Austria). I'll post it in the continuation of this article - for clarity.
      Yours faithfully,
      hi
  • Caretaker April 9 2020 10: 17 New
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    The city had a double wall with a thickness of 2 to 4,6 m, a height of 8,5 to 12 m, which completely coincided with the theoretical settings prescribed in Poliorketiki.

    The parameters of the wall of that time are known? Facing material and inner cladding?
    1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 13: 37 New
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      Yes,
      even walls have reached us laughing , for example, the walls of Constantinople or Salon, plus Poliorketiki, where there is data what walls should be in thickness.
      1. Caretaker April 9 2020 16: 03 New
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        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        Yes,
        even the walls reached us laughing, for example, the walls of Constantinople or the Salon, plus Poliorketiki, where there is data what the walls should be in thickness.

        We are discussing the walls of Thessaloniki of the end of VII, rather than the abstract surviving walls.
        What reliable data are available about them?
        1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 16: 33 New
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          The data indicated by me are given from different works + Polyorgetic data, and what are your doubts?
          1. Caretaker April 9 2020 18: 17 New
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            Quote: Edward Vashchenko
            The data indicated by me are given from different works + Polyorgetic data, and what are your doubts?

            What should be is an assumption.
            The works indicate the parameters of the walls of Thessaloniki of the XNUMXth century
            There was a question: "Facing material and inner cladding?"

            In all existing fortresses, the walls were constantly changing, both in location and in design. Take, for example, changes in the design and layout of the walls of the Moscow Kremlin from the XNUMXth to the XNUMXth centuries.
            Compare Lyubshanskoe settlement and Old Ladoga, Izborsk and Porkhov. Pskov and Novgorod Kremlin.

            The questions are not idle, the knowledge of the answers will suggest why some fortifications were able to defend for a long time, while others were destroyed by small squads.
            The average abstract fortress is like a spherical horse in a vacuum.
            1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 18: 30 New
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              Cladding material and inner cladding
              [/ Quote]
              I don’t know, I didn’t find in the works
              [quote] Questions are not idle

              Of course, all questions on such topics are important.
              knowledge of the answers will suggest why some fortifications were able to defend for a long time, while others were destroyed by small squads of exile.

              But this is unlikely, this is the article about this, probably the whole history of the siege: war is not arithmetic, in the sense that it is not a science of two-two, as Frederick II said: science?
              1. Caretaker April 9 2020 18: 56 New
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                Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                But this is unlikely, this is the article about this, probably the whole history of the siege: war is not arithmetic, in the sense that it is not a science of two and two

                If History is science, then History of sieges is a subset of this discipline.
                Otherwise, one has to admit that History is not a science.

                The article under discussion discusses who stormed, but it is not clear what they actually stormed, besieged and defended.
                1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 19: 42 New
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                  Leonid,
                  this article is already beyond the scope in size, if you also describe the reverse side, then it’s not at all a format.
                  About who they fought with - all the previous articles have now come to those. questions, then more about weapons will be, and further, the history of the centuries of the Slavs (with emphasis on military subjects) forward, something like this.
                  You can not grasp the immensity.
                  By the way, in the next article about the Slavic fortification of this period.
                  hi
                  1. Caretaker April 9 2020 20: 33 New
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                    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                    ... if you also describe the reverse side, then it’s not at all a format.

                    It is not necessary to describe in detail, but to know - it is desirable, perhaps the conclusions will be different and the interpretation of events will change.
                    1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 22: 22 New
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                      Conclusions based on the analysis of sources cannot be changed, if the annals say that a certain city was taken - what is there to interpret? and there are no more data, and nothing is left of the city today.
                      Do not get carried away with excessive interpretations, this is harmful hi
                      1. Caretaker April 10 2020 10: 02 New
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                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        if in the annals it is written that they took a certain city - what is there to interpret? and there is no more data, and nothing is left of the city today.

                        You do not write that “the city is taken”, but describe in what way and most importantly why it was taken, i.e. give an interpretation of the event, as a rule only on the basis of "chronicles".
                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        ... Conclusions based on the analysis of sources - cannot be changed, ..

                        The conclusions “built on source analysis” depend on the composition of the sources, for example, archaeological excavations or local knowledge may contradict interpretation chronicler. For example, which coast is rocky or gentle, the distance between the places of the described events, etc. A knowledge of geography will help to understand why the city was built in this place.
                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        Do not get carried away with excessive interpretations, this is harmful

                        I'm talking about your findings and the composition of the sources.
                        Take, for example, the interpretation of the events of the Great Patriotic War, how much they differ after only 75 years. In the first millennium, differences in “interpretations” were no less.
                      2. Edward Vashchenko April 10 2020 10: 31 New
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                        Leonid,
                        good day,
                        about:
                        Я
                        about your findings and composition of sources.
                        Take, for example, the interpretation of the events of the Great Patriotic War, how much they differ after only 75 years. In the first millennium, differences in “interpretations” were no less.

                        An important factor in historiography is the question of what interests society today on this historical topic.
                        I don’t know if you read an article about the work of prof. historians, I wrote in December.
                        Also, the Second World War, at the beginning part of the information was classified, the “military tricks” were needed by ourselves, the military operations were studied at the Academies with the goal of “if we can repeat”, and that, can we say that they saw this business incorrectly, that is, the participants combat (organizers) taught future officers wrong? So, since then nothing has changed - in the assessment of military operations. Yes, there is, for example, a rethinking of the Prokhorov battle, but ...
                        Or let’s say an estimate of the losses of the USSR in the Second World War is a slippery and contouring topic that requires research, right? but the claims in this case are not to the sources, but to the researchers.
                        If a historian of some 7th century studying nomads has no influence whatsoever, then a WWII historian can even fall under an article.
                        In the first millennium, differences in “interpretations” were no less.

                        Perhaps, but we will never know about it, therefore we should move within the framework of historiography and analysis of sources, there are questions to the sources - read in the original language, if you know it. Even in the preparation of this article, I had to check some sources with Greek originals,
                        I set out in this text not "my opinion", but the data of qualified historians and researchers, not the charlatans about whom they write in this chat,
                        Therefore, the "interpretations" - as opposed to the above - can only be from those who own historiography like me, and did not read one book on the topic, and read sources in the original language, otherwise, these are fantasies about Russia, Etruscans, Slavs at 13 century BC and so forth
                        And I understand and contrast: “my opinion”, which everyone has the right to have, and “concepts” from lovers, worse, from charlatans.
                        hi
                      3. Caretaker April 10 2020 15: 01 New
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                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        And I understand and contrast: “my opinion”, which everyone has the right to have, and “concepts” from lovers, worse, from charlatans.

                        I did not notice any oppositions in your articles, and they are not required, because articles are in the nature of retelling written sources. Unfortunately, you do not use illustrations from archaeological finds.
                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        ... in this text I have set forth not "my opinion", but the data of qualified historian-researchers, ...

                        The most common problem of many historians is that they do not speak related disciplines. Often the fact that for the humanities - the truth is not negotiable, gleaned from academic sources, for many techies it seems ridiculous and absurd or at least provocative of questions. Similar "mistakes" occur in cases where the Author has not been to the places of the described events, and often has not even analyzed cosmic images (by the way, it’s a very useful resource if you can use it).
                        All of the above does not in any way detract from the importance of written sources and does not belittle the achievements of specialists working with them.
                      4. Edward Vashchenko April 10 2020 20: 35 New
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                        Excuse me, but who are YOU by profession?
                        For example, I was in Istanbul, I had 4 times near the walls, 2 in Thessaloniki, twice on the Bulgarian coast (Byzantine places), etc.
                        You so boldly declare that someone owns archeology there, someone doesn’t, do you specifically think that I don’t own archaeological techniques and are not familiar with the historiography of archaeologists on this topic?
                        it will be more correct to write specifically, and which of the famous professional historians does not own archeology? appearances, passwords - give specifics.
                        According to the historiography of fortification: can you list the key archaeological work according to this particular article?
                        This is a rhetorical question - you still don’t know anything.
                        And here's a joke, here on the VO dispute arose more than once, and more than once: amateurs, apparently and in their specialization, tried to write something there on the subject of professional historians.
                        Someone wrote judging by the cars that are made in our country, it would be better if they were made by humanities.
                        But strange as it may seem, there are not a few historians with a world-famous reputation in Russia, but with techies it’s not very.
                      5. Caretaker April 10 2020 21: 53 New
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                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        For example, I was in Istanbul, I had 4 times near the walls, 2 in Thessaloniki, twice on the Bulgarian coast (Byzantine places), etc.

                        I have no doubt, but unfortunately, you rarely use photographs to illustrate topics.
                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        You so boldly declare that someone owns archeology there, someone doesn’t, do you specifically think that I don’t own archaeological techniques and are not familiar with the historiography of archaeologists on this topic? it will be more correct to write specifically,

                        I don’t think so, but if in this vein, then using the often used algorithm for proving the lack of written language among the Slavs, I could formulate it this way: "If the article does not mention the historiography of archaeologists, then there is no knowledge on the topic."
                        If we don’t see something, this does not mean that it is not there.
                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        ... Russia, Etruscans, Slavs in the 13th century BC and so on ...

                        Is it you about me or, in general, if about me, then "let's get specifics."
                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        ... I do not own archaeological techniques and am not familiar with the historiography of archaeologists on this topic?

                        In the topic "How the ancient Slavs took the city," you successfully concealed this knowledge. Perhaps they simply did not want to acquaint readers? In vain, it would be very interesting.
                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        But strange as it may seem, there are not a few historians with a world-famous reputation in Russia, but with techies it’s not very.

                        Perhaps that is why you participated in the discussion of the topic of the state of machine tools in Russia. I was surprised, but this is the right of any participant. No offense. By the way, quite reasonable comments, some pluses.
                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        Excuse me, but who are YOU by profession?
                        .
                        This is a rhetorical question - you still don’t know anything.

                        On the "weak" you take or think that someone doubted your competence?
                      6. Edward Vashchenko April 10 2020 22: 27 New
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                        Perhaps that is why you participated in the discussion of the topic of the state of machine tools in Russia. I was surprised, but this is the right of any participant. No offense

                        Of course, no offense! I have something to do with this topic. Solid tech at work hi
                      7. Caretaker April 11 2020 21: 32 New
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                        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
                        ... For work, a solid techie hi

                        We are colleagues.
        2. Operator April 9 2020 22: 27 New
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          Fortified points in European provinces went to Byzantium from the Roman Empire. The walls of the fortifications were designed to confront the barbarians of the beginning of our era - the Celts and Germans, who did not possess wall-to-wall technologies.

          The standard wall was a masonry of limestone blocks of a meter thick, the reinforced wall was two parallel masonry with a sand-gravel mixture filling in between.

          Limestone blocks were perfectly pierced by Slavic wall-hung tools - vices made in the form of oversized carpentry goats, inside of which logs were suspended on leather belts with a comel forward with the possibility of pendulum swing. The goats were covered with shields to protect against arrows and spears (as well as soaked in water to protect against fire) and placed on wheelsets for thrust against the wall. Komel was upholstered in metal.
  • Caretaker April 9 2020 10: 28 New
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    ... the fourth drove the so-called gorpeks ...

    What are humpbacks and where did they drive them?
    1. Fat
      Fat April 9 2020 11: 17 New
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      Quote: Caretaker
      ... the fourth drove the so-called gorpeks ...

      What are humpbacks and where did they drive them?

      Gorpek is a short, heavy siege spear. It was driven into the wall. You could either climb a wall along the humps or destroy this wall. As a modern analog - ice pick ...
      But the ice pick is nevertheless closer to the crowbar than to the spear ... yes
      1. Caretaker April 9 2020 11: 51 New
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        Quote: Thick
        You could either climb a wall along the humps or destroy this wall.

        To rise is understandable, but how to destroy?
        The etymology of the word is interesting, possibly from the Slavic "mountain, maid, burnout (up), zgoraj (up)"?
      2. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 13: 38 New
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        Yes, here is the answer. I honestly don’t know what exactly it means, but in the second part they give the same definition.
  • Caretaker April 9 2020 10: 32 New
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    Under the connected ships, some researchers consider single-boat boats, connected in three pieces with a deck of boards for installing siege weapons.

    Perhaps ordinary rafts?
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka April 9 2020 12: 01 New
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      There are no connected ships in the sources!
      1. Caretaker April 9 2020 12: 12 New
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        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
        There are no connected ships in the sources!

        Instead of three single-boat boats, for siege weapons, it is more rational to use rafts. Perhaps larger vessels were used, rather than odnodrevki?
        Probably several bonded odnodrevki used as a shield platform for archers.
        1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 13: 40 New
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          On rafts - ships - continued in the article next week (if I have time with drawings, the text is ready) - plus, the data from the Byzantine Polyorgetics - about these vessels.
  • Moon April 9 2020 12: 46 New
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    As far as I remember, the Byzantine army was not enough for all borders. The organization of defense of the city of the Empire is a matter of exclusively citizens. In general, you need to judge that it was not professional. Organized, yes. But there were few warriors there.
    Yes, and even the Slavs had a traditional set of sieges for all the military of that time.
    Stairs, helipoles (siege tours-mobile towers made of wood), trebuchet catapults (according to Sinkell's descriptions)
    From the sea they used dugouts (boats from one piece of wood) and thus it was possible to turn a section of the sea into a kind of land and fill it with soldiers.
    In general, as the Byzantines themselves described, the Mother of God herself drowned all these pagan things. Under the walls of her temple. The storm is shorter. And the Byzantines themselves retreated in time. Maybe they just foresaw the weather.

    A very similar death of the Slavic flotilla on monoxyls in the calm sea is described in the collection of miracles of St. Demetrius of Solunsky. When at the turn of the XNUMXth – XNUMXth centuries the Slavs moved in a dugout to storm Thessaloniki.

    Ours about the siege of 626 was not. Contemporaries do not mention. But with the light hand of the Monk George Mtatsmindeli, who did not distinguish between the tribes, they began to dignify us all.
    The way the Slavs retreated was also traditional. Burn all property (siege weapons, dwellings, etc._) that interfere with a quick retreat
    Details can be found in Theodore Sinkell "On the insane attack of godless Avars and Persians on the God-protected City and on their shameful retreat thanks to the philanthropy of God and the Virgin"
    1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 13: 43 New
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      The storm is shorter. And the Byzantines themselves retreated in time. Maybe they just foresaw the weather.

      if we ignore the sources, everything happens in the war, not everything goes according to plan, even if the plan is very good. So, only miracles cannot be explained otherwise, but in May 1453 a miracle did not happen hi
      1. Moon April 10 2020 22: 15 New
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        Quote: Edward Vashchenko
        so, only miracles cannot be explained differently, but in May 1453 a miracle did not happen

        How many "miraculous" miracles were saved by the god-protected city ... It’s time to think about who has gained so much strength to break any miracle ... And then neither the miracle nor the miracle of the wall or the courage of the defenders ..
        Someone in the sunset and someone in the zenith!
  • Operator April 9 2020 13: 23 New
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    The Slavs, whose ancestors had practiced carpentry in the forest zone for several thousand years and traveled exclusively along rivers, did not cost anything when storming cities to build log cabins for assault towers and put them on rolling logs using river transfer technology.

    The Slavs took part of the fortresses by storm from the side of rivers or the sea, using plows that were not Papuan pies (as the monoxyl trumpets think), but 20-meter sailing and rowing ships with a collapse of sides 2 meters wide, high bow and stern ends , stiffening ribs, cradles and the upper deck of the boards.

    The base of the plows was made from a solid deck of wood several tens of meters high and at least a meter in diameter (three meters in coverage) by cutting logs to a thickness of 2 cm and then forming the body using water vapor and stretch marks.

    Only with such unique technologies for wood processing and the manufacture of large-scale structures from it, it was possible to squeeze all (except one metropolitan) European province from the Romans - Illyria, Pannonia, Tavria, Dacia, Thrace and Achaia.

    After which Byzantium territorially became today's Turkey laughing
  • Operator April 9 2020 13: 46 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Christians, having come to the Slavs, burned everything, fighting polytheism

    Who were your "Christians" - Martians? laughing
    1. Bar1 April 9 2020 14: 19 New
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      Quote: Operator
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Christians, having come to the Slavs, burned everything, fighting polytheism

      Who were your "Christians" - Martians? laughing

      In the XII century. "Merciless tormentor" was Vladimir Bishop Fedor. He deprived his opponents of villages, converted some into slavery, imprisoned others, chopped their heads, burned his eyes, cut his tongues, and crucified him on the walls.
      Grekulov E.F. - The Orthodox Inquisition in Russia

      USSR Academy of Sciences. Popular science series.

      Publishing House "Science". M .: 1964

      Contents:

      Introduction.

      Chapter I. The Orthodox Church in the fight against the anti-church movement.

      Chapter II Vedic processes ..

      Chapter III. Inquisition methods of dealing with a split ..

      Chapter IV Monastic prisons and their use to combat the anti-church and revolutionary movement ..

      Chapter V. Forced planting of Orthodoxy among the peoples of Russia.

      Chapter VI. Weaning and anathema.

      Chapter VII. Incitement to national and religious intolerance as a means of distracting the masses from the class struggle ..

      Chapter VIII. Persecution of education and science.



      https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=173498&p=1
      1. Operator April 9 2020 14: 24 New
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        No need to tell the purebred Russian Krasnodar (who does not know about the Old Testament massacre of Jews by Jews the day after the first ascent of Moses to Sinai) laughing
      2. Trilobite Master April 9 2020 15: 10 New
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        Quote: Bar1
        In the XII century. "Merciless tormentor" was Vladimir Bishop Fedor.

        Do you recall the fate of this Fedor? If interested, I can tell you more about him. This, incidentally, is a well-known personality, friend and associate of Andrei Bogolyubsky, oh, sorry, Jesus Christ, in your opinion. laughing
      3. Pissarro April 10 2020 06: 40 New
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        Already Khrushchev's propagandist Grekulov pulled out of naphthalene. Ancestor of Fomenko and Petukhov

        Comrade, in Russia, the bishop could not take away anyone, convert him into slavery, and chop heads. This is the prerogative of the prince, secular authority. And about prisons in the 12th century in more detail, in the Russian truth there are no terms and stages, there is a vira, a stream and a looting. But the prince’s court judges anyone, not some kind of pop
        1. Bar1 April 10 2020 09: 28 New
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          Quote: Pissarro
          Comrade, in Russia, the bishop could not take away anyone, convert him into slavery, and chop heads. This is the prerogative of the prince, secular authority


          I somehow believe the historian Grekulov more than you do not understand whom.
          1. Pissarro April 10 2020 11: 37 New
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            The answer from the series itself d..k)
            The fact that you believe all kinds of clowns rooster, Fomenko, grekulov your right. In forums, people debate with arguments. Historians operate on facts. And ignoramuses believe clowns.
            My argument to you is that the court in Russia of the period you indicated was ruled by secular authority on the basis of Russian truth, which, as a legal document, has survived and has survived to this day. Try with your grekulovymi and roosters to prove that the court ruled the pop. Bring a fact.
            However, you yourself answered that you just believe charlatans
            1. Bar1 April 10 2020 22: 05 New
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              Quote: Pissarro
              The answer from the series itself d..k)
              The fact that you believe all kinds of clowns rooster, Fomenko, grekulov your right. In forums, people debate with arguments. Historians operate on facts. And ignoramuses believe clowns.
              My argument to you is that the court in Russia of the period you indicated was ruled by secular authority on the basis of Russian truth, which, as a legal document, has survived and has survived to this day. Try with your grekulovymi and roosters to prove that the court ruled the pop. Bring a fact.
              However, you yourself answered that you just believe charlatans


              First of all, we didn’t drink at the Brudershaft, if you please. But Grekulov and cites facts based on documents, try to refute.
              1. Bar1 April 10 2020 23: 10 New
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                in general, the fact that OI is hiding the true history from us is not only said by Fomenko and Nosovsky, but, for example, academician, doctor of historical sciences Pyzhikov. He clearly and frankly says that SPLIT in the 17th century was a civil war for its faith against an alien Western religion and, accordingly, against a foreign elite that imposed its pro-Western culture on the Russian people.
                In fact, the Razin Rebellion and Streltsy riots are a RELIGIOUS war. And it was no less than the civil war of the 20th century.



                watch from 44min.

                so there is plenty of evidence of a religious war.
  • vladcub April 9 2020 14: 47 New
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    Quote: svp67
    ??? Of course, thanks to the author for the efforts, but after reading there were so many questions to the author that you can write a separate article from them, which in turn is prohibited by the rules of the site. It seems like we should offer to open a new section on “VO” - “Alternative History”

    And Fomenko invite the chief editor?
  • fuxila April 9 2020 14: 56 New
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    Informative! Indeed, the military affairs of the Slavs in the 6-7 centuries. developed by leaps and bounds., especially when compared with the Germans. The latter first encountered the Romans under Julius Caesar, and then for 5 centuries, until the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476, they never learned to take cities and fortresses. Even the Ostrogoths, having conquered Italy, could not really learn this craft, which was demonstrated during the siege of Rome in 537.
    1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 16: 36 New
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      Alex, welcome!
      Yes and no. All the same, the best commanders of the Roman Empire were “working” with the Goths in Italy, and the Slavs fought during the period of the empire’s incredible weakness in the Balkans, nevertheless - the truth is about the development of military skill.
      Best regards
      1. fuxila April 10 2020 05: 39 New
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        Greetings, Edward! As for the Germans, to be honest, the idea is not mine, I don’t remember which of the researchers I borrowed from. But on a superficial glance it is completely justified. Take vandals as an example. The capture of Carthage, Rome and other cities was caused by the factor of surprise and the lack of resistance of the townspeople. And when the garrison and the townspeople entered the struggle, as in Hippo-Regia, then the "vandals" didn’t shine. As a result, they obliged the subservient population of North Africa to tear down the walls, recognizing their helplessness in the siege case. So are the Goths. They conquered Rome as a result of betrayal. But in the future, all their attempts to expand the boundaries of possessions in Gaul stumbled upon the walls of cities: here there was an unsuccessful siege of Narbonne, and repeated and unsuccessful attempts to capture Arles and the siege of Clermont, which also ended in failure. Often the Germans took the city with the help of treason or starvation, like the Ostrogoths of Rome and Milan, and the Lombards Titsin. Actually, they conquered most of the Roman cities as federal allies (especially with regard to the Burgundians), but when they tried to storm them, they did not show any great successes.
        In general, it would be nice if you later highlighted this point - a siege among the Germans.
        1. Edward Vashchenko April 10 2020 08: 57 New
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          Good morning!
          In general, it would be nice if you later highlighted this point - a siege among the Germans.

          The topic is really interesting, I’m not sure that I can do it at my pace, as long as you shove the whole historiography.
          The Slavs, although I can say such things about the ancients, the topic is extremely close to me, I am a Russianist and the closer to Russia (I already wrote here) the more clear for me or let's put it this way, I know everything (almost) historiography and sources
          Yours faithfully,
          Edward
  • Mihaylov April 9 2020 15: 20 New
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    Edward, welcome!
    I have a question about stone throwers: is there any information or suggestions about what kind of stone throwers they used?
    Judging by the fact that they were installed on the tower, it was apparently some small stone-throwers. Torsion? It is unlikely that they were tribusheets.
    1. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 16: 38 New
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      Greetings Sergey!
      Truibushe is definitely not, but judging by the descriptions, they were different, and in the next article (next week) I will try to tell you more about this, within the framework of the sources, of course, 6 and they severely limit us.
      Best regards
  • Catfish April 9 2020 16: 44 New
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    Edward, good afternoon and thank you. hi
    I wonder if this tower was built, or did it remain in the project?
    It would be three floors so that archers and slingers could be placed in it - in a word, to build such a machine with which, he claimed, they would definitely take the city. "

    And regarding shipbuilding, it is somehow doubtful that even at that time the Slavs had “serious” ships that could compete with the European ones.
    ... learned about the technical possibilities of building more complex ships.

    To learn one thing, and to be able to build it, it didn’t sink, it’s completely different.
    1. Operator April 9 2020 17: 08 New
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      What a good 6th century European ship laughing
    2. Edward Vashchenko April 9 2020 18: 58 New
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      Constantine
      welcome
      about the tower - no, not built, the next intervention of St. Dmitry and ... everything was gone.
      And regarding shipbuilding, it is somehow doubtful that even at that time the Slavs had “serious” ships that could compete with European

      What do we know about shipbuilding and ships of European tribes and "barbarian" kingdoms for this period:
      1. Dominant - Roman Empire: they were the only sailors of the Mediterranean, continuous expeditions: Africa, Italy, Sicily, Spain, etc.
      2. Vandals were able to do something in Africa, but it was rather based on Roman shipbuilders, Sardinia pi Corsica belonged to them, earlier they devastated Greece, Italy and took Rome;
      3. I think that if someone had something, then everything was based on the Roman (Greek) tradition, so during the struggle for Italy the Goths tried to compete at sea, successfully took Sicily and Corfu in 551,552. But when the Byzantine fleet entered the business, that was it: they were defeated at sea.
      4. In the north, outside the influence of Constantinople, noble sailors Saxons, Angles and Utes, capturing England during this period;
      5. In Scandinavia, the “pre-Viking” period begins - Wendel - 7th century, ships to match the Vikings.
      6. Yes, I almost forgot, the second half of the 7th century. - Arabs, more precisely the sailors of Egypt and Syria in the service of the Arabs: they create a powerful fleet.
      Something like that.
      Of course, the Slavs against this background are not at all “noble sailors”, all the more so since the information about sea voyages is “precise”, but the fact that the Slavs could and used the ships more seriously than odnodrevki follows from their piracy on the Greek coast of the 7th century. , and the Lombards were sent to the Avars by the Italian ship masters at the beginning of the 7th century.
      But no more than that.
      To learn one thing, and to be able to build it, it didn’t sink, it’s completely different.

      Golden words ... oh, it seems about modernity)
      Yours faithfully,
      Edward
      1. Catfish April 9 2020 19: 11 New
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        Thanks again, especially for the sailors. smile
        Regarding the tower ... However, St. Dmitry is a good cattle, at least in relation to the Slavs ... request
        1. Mihaylov April 9 2020 20: 05 New
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          You have a coh in the picture, right? I was not mistaken?
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          3. Catfish April 9 2020 20: 41 New
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            Here is an image of a Mediterranean kog, compare.
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    4. kalibr April 9 2020 20: 16 New
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      Oh, this is from my book KNIGHTS, LOCKS, WEAPONS. Fig. artist Korolkova (peace be upon him!)
    5. kalibr April 9 2020 20: 19 New
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      Quote: Sea Cat
      to know one thing, but to be able to build, it didn’t sink, it’s completely different.

      No, this is not kogg, but the so-called "Norman ship." More, let’s say, a warship And a little earlier in time.
      1. Mihaylov April 9 2020 20: 25 New
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        And it looks like I remember doing a kogg model at school. I don’t remember in which magazine there were “patterns” of ships that needed to be used as a stencil, transferred to paper and glued.
        1. kalibr April 9 2020 21: 00 New
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          There was a color scan on the cover of FAMILY AND SCHOOLS and in the journal LEVSHA. My first, second I do not remember whose.
        2. Fat
          Fat April 9 2020 21: 33 New
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          It looks like "UT for skillful hands", an application to the Young Technician ...
          1. kalibr April 10 2020 12: 11 New
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            Yes of course. There was something like that too. And in Lefty there was definitely my FRENCH BATTLE KOGG.
            1. Fat
              Fat April 10 2020 17: 04 New
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              Well .. So it turns out. Never a color printout remains untouched, and often does not help out, especially when you try to make a paper model ... NOT a paper assembly but a Model.
              What can I say. Now I don’t print in color. And expensive and pointless. Only color schemes are important.
              No less than the skill, knowledge and experience of a modeler.
              "Cristobal Junta, there was a wonderful taxidermist. In his office there was a stuffed Standartenführer. Standartenführer was also a wonderful taxidermist, but the Junta was a little better." (C)
              Like you, I probably like to echo thoughts with my hands: drawing, photo, model on a scale ... I especially like sailing ships ... brigs.
              This is special to become.
              1. kalibr April 10 2020 20: 08 New
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                I have a Czech Black Falcon brig model ... my first branded model. The original was without sails, I made sails from the “Oxidan” on it.
                1. Fat
                  Fat April 10 2020 20: 59 New
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                  Oleg Vyacheslavovich .... The brig’s sailing armament is almost standard ... Two two-mast masts, the main sailing armament except for the trisel’s main griffin, direct ... Apart from staysails and jibs ... Naturally.
                  Well, I really don’t know how you pinned the materials of Oxidan and what
                  from ... A huge respect for the attempt. Happened?
                  И what did walrus say ???
                  Let's start?)))

                  I apologize, Oleg Vyacheslavovich.
                  I'm not x. memorable.
                  Also sinful
      2. Catfish April 9 2020 20: 40 New
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        And the Normans didn’t go on claws? I don’t mean to argue, but for the sake of interest. Didn’t they have fights?
        1. kalibr April 9 2020 21: 03 New
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          Ahh, Konstantin, that's where everyone is "caught." Drakkars are the ships of the “northern kings” - Danes, Svens ... And in this case we are talking about the ships ... Normans, inhabitants of Normandy, in the past also Vikings, but of course they were French. And this is not the 8-9th century, but 11-12!
          By the way, I have a book WHEN LESSONS ARE MADE (Minsk, Polymya, 1990). There are many scans and schemes for manufacturing a wide variety of ship models, and just for children's hands and mind.
          1. Catfish April 9 2020 21: 20 New
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            But no one is caught, you yourself wrote
            ... the so-called "Norman ship."
            Norman, but not Norman. request
            1. kalibr April 9 2020 22: 02 New
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              True, but the people of Normandy, just for a long time and called the Normans, Normans - that is, "people from the north." And when Carl Prostovaty gave them this land on the rights of the Lena, Normandy began to say - "northern land"
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka April 10 2020 00: 17 New
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                Quote: kalibr
                True, but the people of Normandy, just for a long time and called the Normans, Normans - that is, "people from the north." And when Carl Prostovaty gave them this land on the rights of the Lena, Normandy began to say - "northern land"

                In the Russian pre-revolutionary transcription met even as "Northman", through the "t"!
                For the Scandinavian ships, I’ll add: knorrs, kholk and snacks.
                Mediterranean kogg, from the Norman warship was distinguished by a slanting sail. Dimensions and measurements are comparable. Do not forget the Hansa and its ships!
                Regards, Vlad!
  • Mihaylov April 9 2020 20: 07 New
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    Quote: Edward Vashchenko
    another intervention of St. Dmitry

    In Thessaloniki, a very large and beautiful cathedral of St. Demetrius of the 7th century, we must think they were very grateful to him ...
  • kalibr April 9 2020 20: 14 New
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    Very interesting article. I personally really liked it!
  • Force multiplier April 9 2020 20: 55 New
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    It is not so much the progress in the methods of taking cities, but the fact that, for example, the "Slavs" of Procopius and the "Slavs" of Theophylact, these are different "Slavs." The term "Slavs" is not an ethnonym. Procopius writes that the "Slavs" were formerly known as the Spore. The two main versions that it is distorted either by Serbs or Spali (Spalei), but in this context is not important, because both of these people are Sarmatian. Feofilakt calls the Goths “Slavs” (by his time the Ostrogoths and Gepids had already lost their statehood)
  • Operator April 9 2020 21: 52 New
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    Quote: Force Multiplier
    Serbs either Slept (Spalei) ... both of these people are Sarmatian

    And the Serbs still don’t know about their “Sarmatian” origin laughing
    1. Force multiplier April 10 2020 01: 49 New
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      They know everything, of course. As an example, here is an article
      https://www.researchgate.net/publication/329184431_On_The_Origins_Of_Proto-Croats_And_Proto-Serbs
      Wikipedia
      https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Иранска_теорија_о_пореклу_Срба
      Whether they officially recognize the only true version - the answer is obvious, because the question is political. Serbia has already lost territory, and so the people are not autochthonous, not only in the Balkans, but in Europe
      1. Operator April 10 2020 12: 17 New
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        Sarmatians are mestizos of Erbins (R1b) and Northern Semites (J2), and Serbs are mestizos of Aryans (R1a) and Northern Illyrians (I2).

        The Illyrians are the first representatives of Homo sapiens who came to the European subcontinent 50 thousand years ago. Arias came to Europe 12 thousand years ago, Erbins - 5 thousand years ago, Sarmatians - 2,5 thousand years ago.
        1. Force multiplier April 10 2020 14: 13 New
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          Based on "politically correct" theories, the Caspian steppes are considered the birthplace of R1a. In any case, it is present in a significant amount in all Sarmatian populations. And all of the above applies to R1b. And all because the very “fundamental” difference between R1a and R1b is also a pure policy - the accepted classification is divided into absolutely haplogroups that are absolutely speculatively different subclades into two haplogroups, and then the theory of insurmountable ethnic and almost racial difference between their carriers is built. despite the fact that both are considered Indo "European". But the difference even in this official classification is only in the 3rd character. Most of all in this division R1a and R1b I like maps of their distribution in Europe, where the border between the territories where these haplogroups prevail strictly coincides with the borders of 1945 and the border of the “eastern” and “western” blocs
          1. Operator April 10 2020 16: 36 New
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            In the Sarmatians, the number of carriers R1b and J2 is half and half, the proportion of R1a is at the level of 10%, carriers I2 are absent.

            The Serbs have the number of carriers R1a and I2 - half to half, carriers J2 are absent.

            The boundaries of the predominance of carriers R1a and R1b in Europe mainly formed 3300 years ago - see the battle in the valley of the Tollensee River.
            1. Force multiplier April 10 2020 18: 59 New
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              Modern Serbs have l2 just as a result of coming to the Balkans. Although, again, whom to mean by modern Serbs. The totality of citizens of Serbia, regardless of ethnic origin, or the Serbs themselves? But all modern research is carried out according to the first option (a set of citizens), and there is a deliberate substitution of the concepts of nation and ethnicity. And how are the data on modern populations, and even notoriously incomplete, related to the population in the VI century. There is simply no such data. In addition, in some Sarmatians, carriers of l2 are present, for example, in Cossacks (Khazars). They have them from Trypillians. And the same Cossacks have a lot of R1a.
              About the political separation of R1a and R1b, as well as the absolutely political border between them, I spoke, but I want to add that the leader in the post-Soviet space, the preacher of this separation - Klesov, is a US citizen. For me, this fact alone is a significant marker
              1. Operator April 10 2020 19: 56 New
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                This refers to the genotype of modern Serbs, and not all residents of Serbia.

                What is the relationship between the Iranian-speaking Sarmatians and the Turkic-speaking Khazars, the time gap between which in terms of coming to Europe is more than 1000 years? Yes, and in the Khazars there are no carriers of R1b, one of the two main harmogharmy of Sarmatians.

                And did Klesov organize the battle in the Tollensee river valley? laughing
                1. Force multiplier April 10 2020 23: 28 New
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                  In the Russian Federation and Ukraine, the study was conducted on the basis of the national rather than ethnic principle, therefore I reasonably doubt that it was different in Serbia. But this is not so important, because, in principle, what such information can shed light on, this is only the composition of the racial mixture of the modern ethnic group (not even its proportions, this requires a more representative sample). And here again a return to the imaginary difference of R1a and R1b. The presence of any of these haplogroups in the racial mixture means the same thing - the Indo-European component. And since they mean the same thing, then the accepted classification is erroneous (and quite intentionally) and it is more correct to consider them as one haplogroup R1.

                  The Khazars are Sarmatians, and are mentioned in the S. Caucasus before the arrival of the Turkic peoples in Europe. The Türkic-speaking of the Khazars has never been proved by anyone. This is an assumption that for some reason is considered the most probable. Although it is not clear why. From the fact that they were somehow under the rule of the Türks? So under the authority of the Goths they were. And under the rule of many more

                  From the above about Tolensei - even if you interpret the data as the presence in the battle of two German factions of steppe warriors, they could act as mercenaries or subjects (albeit with a special status) on one or both sides (as often in the history of the Khazars or Alans of times VPN)
                  1. Operator April 11 2020 00: 33 New
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                    As for the separate classification of R1a and R1b, this is for geneticists.

                    In the 13th century BC in the Tollens region, people lived as clans and tribes in the Stone Age and fought with stone axes. The first natives of the Scandinavian Peninsula - the Cimbri (which formed German times) are reflected in the Roman annals only after 1200 years. There are no mercenaries or, especially, subjects under the tribal system by definition.
                    1. Force multiplier April 11 2020 10: 44 New
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                      Such research without state or "transnational" support is impossible. Genetics may be specialists, but they make conclusions convenient for their sponsors. What are the "official" Balanovsky and the "unofficial" Klyosov.
                      The Scandinavian Bronze Age began somewhere in 1800-1700. BC. By the 13th century BC Indo-Germans reached Hindustan. The whole sensationalism of Tolensee is that the scale of the battle directly indicates the statehood of the warring parties. Because only the state could organize and set up an army of a similar strength
                      1. Operator April 11 2020 15: 16 New
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                        Quote: Force Multiplier
                        The Scandinavian Bronze Age began somewhere in 1800-1700. BC.

                        Unfortunately, the participants in the battle in the Tollensee valley, chopped with stone axes, did not have time to notify about this (as well as the Sanskrit-speaking Aryans, that they are among the Indo-Germans) laughing
                      2. Force multiplier April 11 2020 23: 46 New
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                        Bronze tips. Traces of mutilations inflicted by swords. But there were no stone axes (not found, in any case).
                        Sanskrit in India is just from the Germans. Tilak has already notified everyone more than 100 years ago. Just after the events of the 40s, it became inconvenient to recall this, and immediately came up with a theory about the “steppe ancestral home” and began to use the politically correct term “Indo-Europeans”
                      3. Operator April 12 2020 00: 05 New
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                        Google "Battle stone century Tollenze ".

                        The greatest difference between Sanskrit and the so-called Indo-European languages ​​- just in the case of Germanic (R1b). The smallest difference is in the case of the Slavic (R1a), which are dialects of sanksrit.

                        The speculative opus of B.G. Tilak a hundred years ago is now suitable only for kindling.
                      4. Force multiplier April 12 2020 00: 32 New
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                        Battle of the Bronze Age
                        http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle

                        Haplogroups with languages ​​are not connected at all in any way. Slavic was created in the IX century. based on East Germanic languages. Gothic in the first place. With the addition of Latin and Greek vocabulary. All the main components of Slavic are related to Sanskrit. Similarity to Sanskrit from Gothic, as in Lithuanian, Prussian, etc. But not a dialect anyway

                        The opus of Tilak is confirmed by reports of ancient authors. Jordan, for example, said that Scandinavia is the womb of peoples
  • Astra wild April 11 2020 20: 08 New
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    Sorry, but as soon as I hear about the Aryans I remember the Nazis. I was taught at school that this is hatefulness and anti-scientific teaching
    1. Operator April 11 2020 20: 11 New
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      You were taught about Aryans at school.
      1. Astra wild April 12 2020 20: 17 New
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        Who was Rosenberg? - The very thing that is not a fascist, but he was just cracking about the Aryans
  • Operator April 9 2020 22: 46 New
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    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    "for many millennia in Europe and in all places of settlement of the Indo-Europeans there were no borders, nor" iron curtains "

    In some places in Europe there were no iron curtains, in others there were - for example, the area of ​​resettlement of future Slavs: the southern Baltic coast - the Nysa and Odra rivers - Sudetes - the left bank of the Danube - Carpathians - Dnieper - Ladoga.

    See the battle in the valley of the Tollensee river of the 13th century BC, when the ancestors of the Germans wanted to overcome the iron curtain of the ancestors of the Slavs.
  • Astra wild April 11 2020 19: 59 New
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    Quote: svp67
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    Invalid remark.

    Sorry, but in the same Novgorod many thousands of berets were already found, but written in Cyrillic, they couldn’t be destroyed if they were written differently or in those days .. But they simply don’t exist ... There are no trampled in the mud, lost birch bark letters written in a different alphabet ...

    Another alphabet - you need to contact Fomenko
  • Astra wild April 11 2020 21: 36 New
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    Quote: Simargl
    Quote: Astra wild
    I DO NOT WANT
    belay
    laughing
    And have to!
    The USSR also did not want to lose everything.

    Actually, the USSR was destroyed by people who betrayed the ideals of communism
  • Operator April 12 2020 01: 25 New
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    Quote: Force Multiplier
    Slavic was created in the IX century. based on East Germanic languages

    And Russian in the 19th century is based on Ethiopian bully

    I have no more questions.