Military Review

Caliber 9 mm and stopping action. Why was the 7,62x25 TT replaced by 9x18 mm PM?

154
One of the most enduring stereotypes in the field of small arms weapons is the thesis that the minimum caliber providing sufficient stopping action of the pistol cartridge is the caliber 9 mm. Let's try to figure out how this corresponds to reality.


Caliber 9 mm and stopping action. Why was the 7,62x25 TT replaced by 9x18 mm PM?

Left to Right: .30-06 Springfield, .375 H&H Magnum, .404 Jeffery, .505 Gibbs


To begin with, we recall where, in addition to the task of defeating a person, the stopping action is most in demand. This is a hunt for representatives of the animal world.

The stopping effect of hunting ammunition


The need for high stopping action of hunting weapons is due to two reasons. Firstly, it increases the safety of the hunter. Most animals are quite “hard on the wound”. In other words, a wounded animal, whether it’s a boar, a wolf or a bear, when shooting close can very well attack a hunter and cause him injuries and injuries, even fatal ones. The second task, solved by the high stopping effect of the cartridges, is the absence of wounded animals on the hunt. To make and not get "wounded" is a serious "jamb" in the hunting environment, in addition, it can even be financially punishable in some hunting grounds.

The minimum acceptable ammunition for hunting animals from the big African five is .375 H&H Magnum (9,53x91 mm) or its German counterpart 9,3x64 mm. More powerful cartridges are .416 (10,57x74 mm), .470 (12,1x83 mm), .505 Gibbs (12,8x80 mm).

As we can see, these ammunition is of a completely “human” caliber 9 — 12 mm, no one makes them caliber 20 — 25 mm or more, which, it would seem, can be expected from the ratio of the sizes and weights of humans and animals from the Big Five especially considering the almost pistol range of a shot when hunting these animals. The main emphasis is on increasing the initial energy of the shot, which for "African" calibers can be 6000 —12 000 J.


The Big African Five and their respective weapons for hunting


The question arises: if it is not a caliber, then why not reduce it by increasing the speed of a bullet? The problem is that increasing the speed of a bullet over a certain limit has an extremely negative effect on the resource of the barrel. The range of initial speeds of most modern army cartridges lies in the range of 800 — 1000 m / s, hunting often even lower. Accordingly, in order to provide a muzzle energy sufficient to defeat the beast, it is necessary to increase the mass of the bullet. And the caliber here is primarily a consequence of the need to increase the mass of the bullet, and not the fact that a bullet with a caliber of 12 mm will hit an elephant better than a bullet with a caliber of 10 mm, with the same energy.

If we talk about shooting at long and medium ranges, the decisive factors in choosing the caliber and mass of bullets are the need to ensure optimal aerodynamic characteristics due to the shape of the bullet and to save the bullet's energy at a considerable distance, given the fact that lighter bullets lose speed faster and subject to wind drift.

As an extreme example of small-caliber high-speed ammunition, the Gerlich bullet for conical trunks can be mentioned. The diameter of the Gerlich bullet was 6,35 mm, the mass of the bullet was 6,35 g, the initial velocity of the bullet reached 1740 — 1760 m / s, the muzzle energy was 9840 J. This record for bullets of small caliber and small mass has not been broken so far. Gerlich's bullet at a distance of 50 m was breaking a hole with a diameter of 12 mm in a steel armor sheet with a thickness of 15 mm, and in a thicker armor it made a funnel in 15 mm of depth and a diameter of 25 mm. The usual bullet of a Mauser rifle of 7,92 mm caliber left only a small depression in 2 – 3 mm on such armor. The Gerlich bullet was used in the development of high-speed shells, but in small arms such ammunition did not receive because of the low resource of weapons for them, which is about 400-500 rounds.


Gerlich's bullet for conic trunks


The question is backfill: what will happen to the representative of the Big Five if they hit Gerlich’s conditional bullet capable of making an 15 mm hole in an armor plate with a thickness of 12 mm, or its modern analogue with an initial energy of the order of 10 000 J?

The stopping effect in humans


Let us return to the stopping action when a person is defeated. It is believed that the stopping action grows with the bullet’s caliber, that is, the .45 ACP (11,43x23 mm) ammunition has a larger stopping action than the 9x19 mm ammunition, while the 9 mm caliber is considered to be minimally sufficient for pistols in terms of stopping action.

The question is that the mass and size characteristics of people vary quite a lot. On average, human height varies from 165 cm to 190 cm, respectively, the sizes of the chest and internal organs differ. This is not counting the various structural features of the body, the shape and location of internal organs, the presence / absence of fat deposits, differences in bone density, reaching 25 - 30%, or muscle tissue volumes.


Differences in the structure of the human body according to Sheldon somatotyping system


Based on the calculation of body proportions in anatomy, three main types of human body structure are distinguished: mesomorphic, brachymorphic, dolichomorphic. The mesomorphic type of physique is classified as people whose anatomical features approach the averaged parameters of the norm (taking into account age, gender, etc.). In people of a brachymorphic body type, transverse dimensions prevail, their muscles are well developed, and they are not very tall. The heart is located transversely due to the high-standing diaphragm. In brachymorphic, the lungs are shorter and wider, loops of the small intestine are located mainly horizontally. People of the dolichomorphic type of physique are distinguished by the predominance of longitudinal dimensions, have relatively longer limbs, poorly developed muscles and a thin layer of subcutaneous fat, narrow bones. Their diaphragm is lower, so the lungs are longer, and the heart is located almost vertically.

The diameter of the bullet 11,43 mm is 1,27 times larger, the area is 1,61 times larger than the bullet 9 mm. The question arises, does the stopping action of a bullet of the caliber 9 mm suffice for all "standard sizes" and "form factors" of a person, or does it work only on the lower / upper level?

If a cartridge of the 9 mm caliber is enough to defeat the "largest" representative of the human race, then a person of a smaller size can be equally effectively hit by a bullet of the 7,62 mm caliber? Where is the border of the minimum allowable caliber, and why is it considered to be the notorious 9 mm?

Why was the 7,62x25 TT replaced by 9x18 mm PM?


It would seem that here it is - a real confirmation of the effectiveness of cartridges of the caliber 9 mm. After all, the 7,62x25 TT cartridge is 1,5-2 times more powerful than the 9x18 mm PM cartridge. And this was not done by the army of Burkina Faso, but by one of the strongest and most equipped armies in the world - the armed forces of the USSR.


Makarov pistol caliber 9x18 mm and Tula Tokarev pistol caliber 7,62x25 mm


The question immediately arises. Why invent a new 9x18 mm cartridge when there were already widespread 9x19 mm and 9x17 mm cartridges (.380 ACP)? What reasons prompted the armed forces and the USSR Ministry of the Interior to adopt a pistol with a less powerful cartridge than 9x19 mm, but more powerful than 9x17 mm?


Cartridges 9x17 mm, 9x18 mm and 9x19 mm


Concerning the 9x19 mm cartridge, a factor such as “necessary and sufficient” most likely worked. At the time of the adoption of the Makarov pistol and the 9x18 PM cartridge for arming, their characteristics made it possible to confidently hit all the necessary targets. If we talk about the defeat of a person unprotected by means of individual armor protection (NIB), then the characteristics of the 9x18 PM cartridge are still quite relevant, especially in conjunction with an increased capacity store. At the same time, the use of an 9x19 mm cartridge complicated the design of the weapon due to the need to reduce the shutter recoil speed, while for cartridges of lower power it was possible to use a free-shutter circuit, which favorably affected the mass, dimensions and cost of the weapon.

As for the 9x17 cartridge, it most likely played a role either in the reluctance to accept the ammunition of the likely enemy, or in the desire to develop a new cartridge with the concomitant receipt of the due bonuses and awards, in the end, no one has yet canceled personal interest. In the 30 of the last century, on the basis of the 9x17 mm cartridge in Germany, by extending the sleeve from 17 to 18,5 mm, the 9 × 18 Ultra cartridge was created. Presumably, it was the 9 × 18 Ultra cartridge that was chosen as a prototype when creating the 9x18 mm cartridge.

In principle, the 9x18 mm cartridge has no particular advantages over the 9x17 mm cartridge. It is certainly possible to say that the 9x18 mm cartridge is more powerful than the 9x17 mm, but it is not difficult to increase the power of the latter to the level of the 9x18 mm cartridge, which confirms the appearance of such 9x17 mm cartridges as Buffalo Bore Ammunition 380 ACP (Auto) + P with initial energy over 400 J.


Reinforced cartridge 9x17 mm Buffalo Bore Ammunition 380 ACP (Auto) + P with an initial energy of over 400 J


Why did they replace the powerful 7,62x25 mm cartridge with the much less powerful 9x18 mm? The reasons are the same as in the case of the cartridge 9x19 mm. With all its advantages, the TT pistol is extremely inconvenient to operate, has a small ammunition for its size and weight, is unsafe to operate due to the lack of a fuse and the safe trigger release from the combat cock. The new, less powerful 9x18 mm cartridge was chosen on the basis of the need to create a compact weapon that is most convenient in everyday use.


Cartridges 7,62x25 mm, 9x19 mm, 9x18 mm, 9x17 mm


But still, why is 9 mm and not 7,62 mm? Initially, two samples were required for the competition, in calibers 7,65 mm and 9 mm, which indicates the absence of prejudice regarding the caliber 7,62 / 7,65 mm. Ultimately, a new 9x18 mm cartridge was chosen, the alleged reasons for the appearance of which are described above. Various sources say that the reason for choosing an 9 mm caliber cartridge is the higher stopping effect of the latter compared to 7,62 / 7,65 mm caliber cartridges, however, there is no information about a systematic study of such an ammunition property as “stopping action” at that time, and its application to the selection of a pistol cartridge could not be found. In all available sources it is indicated - the cartridge of the caliber 9 mm is selected also due to the greater stopping effect and the point.

In fact, there may be several reasons, for example, the high adaptability of the 9 mm cartridge due to the absence of unnecessary operations in the manufacture of a bottle case (the cylindrical one will turn out to be too long, which will interfere with its delivery in a compact gun, or will have a limited volume will not allow pool the necessary initial energy). Yes, and the psychological factor cannot be written off - more caliber, more barrel diameter, more bullet, means "more powerful." In the end, in the United States, many still adore the .45 ACP cartridge, despite the fact that the US military switched to the 9x19 cartridge forty years ago.

Based on the foregoing, there is no sufficient reason to believe that the reason for choosing a pistol cartridge of caliber 9 mm was its greater stopping effect compared to a cartridge of caliber 7,62 mm. If at the time of the creation of the Makarov pistol and the 9x18 mm cartridge, NIB would have been widespread or there would have been a chance of meeting the enemy with a fighting dog in the kit, the active use of the 7,62x25 mm cartridge could well have continued to ours days. Makarov’s pistol and 9x18 mm cartridge could simply not have been born, and the development of domestic short-barreled weapons would have gone along the western path, with the creation of multi-shot pistols with a short barrel stroke.

So why is it still believed that the 9 mm is the minimum caliber to ensure the stopping action of short-barreled weapons? No clear answers could be found to this question. Numerous studies that we talked about in a previous articles, do not give an exhaustive answer, there is not even a sane quantitative definition of "stopping action."

In the next article, we will consider the essence of the stopping action, clarify its definition, try to quantify it, and also try to determine which damaging factors of the ammunition of modern weapons have the maximum effect on it.
Author:
Photos used:
truehunter.ru, ohotniki.ru, huntersclub.com.ua, nkj.ru, zen.yandex.ru
Articles from this series:
Army pistol in Russia. Part of 1
Army pistol in Russia. Part of 2
Army gun in the USA. Part of 1
Army gun in the USA. Part of 2
About ammunition, army pistols and submachine guns in the RF Armed Forces
Army pistol and stopping action of pistol cartridges
A promising army pistol based on the PDW concept
Carabiner kit and attachments for a promising pistol
154 comments
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  1. ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 30 October 2019 06: 08 New
    -5
    I read it, the author got confused, all the answers have been around for a long time. The OD of the TT cartridge is higher than the PM cartridge is a little true but higher. The cartridge was replaced due to weapons in the hands of the population. Why invented the cartridge PM-feature of the Soviet defense industry (should be different from other cartridges). OD depends not only on caliber but also on other factors. From experience, I’ll say through wounding gives more severe OD than blind, although science says the opposite.
    1. YOUR
      YOUR 30 October 2019 07: 22 New
      +3
      Something you have in the wrong steppe ...
      Quote: ssergey1978
      The cartridge was replaced due to weapons in the hands of the population.

      I have the first weapon after the TT school. And stood in service until 1982, then replaced by PM. Currently, we periodically have samples of pistols and PP chambered for 7.62 * 25. PM personally did not use the combat situation, but according to the stories, when a person hits the shoulder, he was deployed around the axis and knocked down. The stopping effect of a bullet is huge.
      Now there are protective equipment and new calibers and new cartridges have appeared. So the Belgian FN Five-seveN cartridge 5.7 * 28. Why we did not replace the caliber, for example in Udava, left 9 mm, apparently due to the economic component. It is easier to reconfigure the machine making the sleeves than to change all the equipment for the production of a new cartridge with a new caliber. Trunks are also easier to do, the caliber is the same.
      1. ssergey1978
        ssergey1978 30 October 2019 11: 32 New
        +8
        More than once I shot at a live target (not a man) from more powerful samples and I never saw that someone would unroll or knock over. I don’t know who it turns around from hitting a PM bullet, rather a bike
        1. YOUR
          YOUR 30 October 2019 11: 50 New
          +3
          I also shot on a hunt and saw how a 12-caliber bullet, I understand the barbarity of a goat to shoot with such a cartridge, but it blows it and even in a jump is the only way. Head over heels flies to the side, with a weight of 50 kg.
          1. Nycomed
            Nycomed 30 October 2019 16: 58 New
            0
            Yes you are a barbarian!
            1. YOUR
              YOUR 31 October 2019 02: 26 New
              +1
              And not figs to run out under her trunks when Chingachguk follows the boar in the wake
      2. garri-lin
        garri-lin 30 October 2019 20: 37 New
        +1
        About a person’s turn from hitting the shoulder is cool. What part of Remba is this? Did not watch. According to the stories of the victims, Makarov’s hit is perceived as a push. Not strong.
        1. Shopping Mall
          31 October 2019 08: 01 New
          +3
          Quote: garri-lin
          About a person’s turn from hitting the shoulder is cool. What part of Remba is this? Did not watch. According to the stories of the victims, Makarov’s hit is perceived as a push. Not strong.


          It's simple, you need to consider the bullet momentum and the carcass momentum - vector values, mass per speed, the momentum of the PM bullet will be approximately 6 gr. / 1000 x 450 m / s = 2,7 kilogram meter per second. Momentum impulse = 75 kg x 0,5 m / s = 37,5 kilogram-meter per second. Vector values, i.e. in opposite directions are deducted.

          So look at how, according to the law of conservation of momentum, a bullet will change a person’s speed, or give movement to a standing person. This is the way to throwing elephants with nitro express.

          In fact, everything is more complicated there, since the bullet enters the body, is deformed, the system is not closed, but all these factors will only reduce the speed of the target’s displacement.

          All these somersaults of the target are most likely caused by muscle contraction, involuntary movement, pain, etc.
          1. garri-lin
            garri-lin 31 October 2019 09: 26 New
            +4
            Less than a year ago, a neighbor and a friend ran into scumbags. Both were shot in the legs. Both did not even fall. And this despite the fact that the bone was hurt. In order for a bullet from Makar to deploy a man, she must fly at a speed of a bullet but with a gun.
          2. Genry
            Genry 31 October 2019 14: 05 New
            +1
            Quote: AVM
            So look at how, according to the law of conservation of momentum, a bullet will change a person’s speed, or give movement to a standing person.


            From the course of physics, one can speak about momentum only in the case of an elastic collision. In the case of a bullet falling into an inelastic one, energy is transferred for destruction and heating, and only then remains for a change in the momentum of the body, which reduces the effect of damage.
            It’s more correct to speak only about the energy of a bullet ...
            The more energy spent / absorbed on hitting the target, the more the stopping effect will manifest itself. And do not forget about the criticality of the point of entry (cardiovascular, nerve centers, skeleton, ...).
            1. Shopping Mall
              31 October 2019 15: 08 New
              +1
              Quote: Genry
              Quote: AVM
              So look at how, according to the law of conservation of momentum, a bullet will change a person’s speed, or give movement to a standing person.


              From the course of physics, one can speak about momentum only in the case of an elastic collision. In the case of a bullet falling into an inelastic one, energy is transferred for destruction and heating, and only then remains for a change in the momentum of the body, which reduces the effect of damage.
              It’s more correct to speak only about the energy of a bullet ...
              The more energy spent / absorbed on hitting the target, the more the stopping effect will manifest itself. And do not forget about the criticality of the point of entry (cardiovascular, nerve centers, skeleton, ...).


              That's right, that's why I wrote:
              In fact, everything is more complicated there, since the bullet enters the body, is deformed, the system is not closed, but all these factors will only reduce the speed of the target’s displacement.

              Therefore, no one will fly anywhere.

              But even if the bullet, and the target the size of a person, would be absolutely elastic, then in this case there would be no flights.

              And from the Destroyers of Legends:
              https://mport.ua/mix/761461-mozhet-li-pulja-sil-no-otbrosit-cheloveka-nazad
        2. IL-18
          IL-18 31 October 2019 11: 01 New
          0
          Quote: garri-lin
          Not strong

          Thirty years ago, I saw one unique person (although personally I saw it for the only time in my life, but for a specialist it is sheer nonsense) flattened a bullet from a PM on the glass in the frame. And "Cheburashka" Oh, 5 broke from the PM from 25m. I repeat, maybe this is something outstanding for an amateur.
    2. bistrov.
      bistrov. 30 October 2019 07: 37 New
      +6
      Quote: ssergey1978
      The cartridge was replaced due to weapons in the hands of the population.

      You have a strange "logic", hehe ... How is the "stopping effect" to the "weapon in the hands of the population"?
      It has been told to you that the so-called. "stopping effect" is only one of the factors for replacing the pistol, the main one is that the TT has ceased to suit both the army and other services due to the fact that it is too bulky and unsafe in everyday use, with concealed carrying, if the cartridge is in the chamber, an accidental shot can occur and this has happened quite often. In addition, a preliminary cocking of the trigger is required for a shot, and this is a waste of precious time if you need to make an urgent shot. PM is devoid of all these drawbacks.
      1. Alex koch
        Alex koch 30 October 2019 08: 38 New
        +2
        All these problems, except perhaps in size, were solved without switching to 9x18


        And the size was not critical, not for nothing that in addition to PM I had to take APS
        1. Doliva63
          Doliva63 30 October 2019 20: 03 New
          -2
          Quote: Alex Koch
          All these problems, except perhaps in size, were solved without switching to 9x18


          And the size was not critical, not for nothing that in addition to PM I had to take APS

          It seems you are not up to date with the topic at all. PM and APS are weapons for various tasks. What makes you write about anything in the bullshit?
          1. Michael HORNET
            Michael HORNET 30 October 2019 23: 19 New
            +2
            Only the main ARMY pistol was not supposed to be PM, but APS, but it turned out to be too expensive for the planned Soviet economy. And in the end, the "pistol of the highest command" became a pan-army.
            In general, it was idiocy and sabotage - to abandon the TT and its cool cartridge and replace it with a dead end PM / APS. Inability to make a pistol with an engaged shutter and low qualifications and short-sightedness of decision makers - these are the main reasons for this stupidity.
            A cartridge 7.62TT would still be relevant, there just replace the bullet with a more correct semi-live, and disperse a bit to 600 j (which is done in modern 9x19, which are very different from 9x19 of the Second World War)
            1. haron
              haron 19 November 2019 00: 32 New
              0
              Quote: Michael HORNET
              Inability to make a pistol with an engaged shutter and low qualifications and short-sightedness of decision makers - these are the main reasons for this stupidity.

              So what exactly was the reason?
              Not the ability to make a high-quality pistol (at the same time, the rest of the shooters were also made relatively high quality with a more complex design than the TT).
              Or is it stupidity of leadership?
              Your statement one-sidedly indicates the complete stupidity and inability of the system to create just a "normal" new pistol by leaving the old cartridge. In other industries, there was clearly no smell of "stupidity".
              If you still think about it, then maybe the reason for the replacement is not in the stupidity of everyone and everything.
              Please name the army where 7,62 x 25 remained until the 80s WITHOUT political considerations or if it was not purchased from outside (there is no production of its own). ?
              China does not count. There are their flies.
              or.
              Please name reliable (comparable to Walter R 38, Colt 1911), relatively compact (smaller than the dimensions of the TT), relatively technological and cheap (Walter PPK), Relatively Accurate (parabellum), Comfortable / applied when shooting (the same P 08).
              In general, all these characteristics of the gun but with a cartridge 7,62x25 created after the Second World War ???
              There were none.
              Something like normality on individual points with this cartridge will come close to CH-52. But something like that. Weight, price, size, design complexity - have not been decided.
              Is it all over the world?
              Tell me - why was it so necessary to leave this cartridge?

              PS: I hope you shot with the TT walking 50 shots at a time. And then immediately with a comparable P-38, under the same conditions. Feeling and result remember?
              Remember the photo on the Reichstag dome. There is no TT. Although there are many pistols in the hands of our soldiers.
              Is this really stupid?
              1. Michael HORNET
                Michael HORNET 22 November 2019 09: 12 New
                0
                Well, in North Korea the pistol under 7.62x25 is still in use - a shortened TT. along with clone CHZ75 under 9x19. But it's just a switch to a standard global cartridge
                Since the USSR abandoned the cartridge 7.62x25, no one made new pistols for it in large quantities. So everything was stuck on the TT variants, which, undoubtedly, had their drawbacks.
                There are custom Colts in 1911 for this cartridge - it works no worse than 9 pairs.
                the capabilities of the cartridge allow to obtain high armor penetration with a sufficient stopping action of the bullet. you only need to put your hands and use another bullet. this is all that this cartridge needs.
                It’s not entirely clear what the problem is with TT firing - the problem there is more in the not very good handle ergonomics, the recoil is even weaker than 9 pairs, it’s just a little sharper, and because of the outdated ergonomics, the gun throws a bit. Walter P38 in shooting is generally shit, that's what I did not like categorically because it is Walter P38. moronic weight distribution with a bare barrel. shot even in severe frost - a VERY noticeable haze above the barrel went from the second store already, thick with 8 rounds - design nonsense.
                I'm not saying that the TT is the best gun, it has flaws. But it would be possible to make a new pistol for this modified 7.62x25 cartridge, especially since it already was Voevodina, but nothing prevented domestic designers, if they really had brains in this aspect, to invent the glock 30 years earlier. in the USSR there never was a pistol culture, there were no normal designers of pistols, since there were no pistol shooters. And if you are not a shooter, you will get all kinds of ugliness. We look at the sporting 22 pistols - there are arrows, and then extraordinary appeared. interesting original designs that have gained popularity and even recognition.
                The transition to a 9 mm weak cartridge itself was a mistake, if you immediately switched to the standard 9x19, maybe it would not be so. but what would be the point of switching to it. when ALREADY had its own 7.62x25, which is no worse and even has much more features.

                By the way, take a look at the new Rolls-Royce in the world of pistols (today the coolest pistol in the world in terms of capabilities) - the FK Brno pistol under 7.5x27. It just embodies what I'm talking about. True, there has already been done with an overlap in energy - they were able to fit in the cartridge and pistol as much energy as there was in the M1 carbine. The FK Brno has 14 rounds by the way. while the grip of the handle is almost exactly the same as that of the standard ChZ75
          2. Alex koch
            Alex koch 31 October 2019 08: 40 New
            0
            Well, enlighten me, what kind of tasks were set by the PM, and which APS?))
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 31 October 2019 17: 02 New
              +1
              Quote: Alex Koch
              Well, enlighten me, what kind of tasks were set by the PM, and which APS?))

              The PM went to replace the TT for Comrade officers, and the APS to grenade launchers, machine gunners, drivers and mechanized water tanks and self-propelled guns, until the AKS-74U replaced it. So the tasks are clear? laughing
              1. Alex koch
                Alex koch 1 November 2019 08: 19 New
                +2
                The PM went as a personal weapon to senior officers, and the MPS went to officers, sergeants, and soldiers of certain specialties who do not have an automatic rifle or carbine in their staff, only this is not a pistol task, but a circle of users. And the task of the pistol is to defeat targets at ranges up to 50 meters. Do not write
                Quote: Doliva63
                about nothing belmes

                Yes, and originally it was planned to arm the APS All combat officers, i.e. PM - weapons of peacetime and garrisons, APS - weapons of the army.
                1. Doliva63
                  Doliva63 1 November 2019 18: 05 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Alex Koch
                  The PM went as a personal weapon to senior officers, and the MPS went to officers, sergeants, and soldiers of certain specialties who do not have an automatic rifle or carbine in their staff, only this is not a pistol task, but a circle of users. And the task of the pistol is to defeat targets at ranges up to 50 meters. Do not write
                  Quote: Doliva63
                  about nothing belmes

                  Yes, and originally it was planned to arm the APS All combat officers, i.e. PM - weapons of peacetime and garrisons, APS - weapons of the army.

                  Have you seen that army APS? laughing To drag him, I would have to abandon the regular machine. Therefore, the PM is for all officers, and the APS is only for those to whom the machine gun is redundant and the gun is insufficient. The weapon of peacetime in the army is enchanting, sorry, nonsense.
                  1. Alex koch
                    Alex koch 1 November 2019 18: 26 New
                    +2
                    And not only seen. Why are you so shabby if
                    Quote: Doliva63
                    To drag him, I would have to abandon the regular machine
                    ? laughing I’ll tell you in secret - they’re still carrying wink The holster from C96 certainly did not justify itself, but we now know this.
                    If you don’t know the history of the competition for a new pistol for SA and the adoption of PM and APS into service, in words
                    Quote: Doliva63
                    enchanting, excuse me, nonsense
                    Do not scatter.
                    1. Doliva63
                      Doliva63 1 November 2019 19: 05 New
                      0
                      Quote: Alex Koch
                      And not only seen. Why are you so shabby if
                      Quote: Doliva63
                      To drag him, I would have to abandon the regular machine
                      ? laughing I’ll tell you in secret - they’re still carrying wink The holster from C96 certainly did not justify itself, but we now know this.
                      If you don’t know the history of the competition for a new pistol for SA and the adoption of PM and APS into service, in words
                      Quote: Doliva63
                      enchanting, excuse me, nonsense
                      Do not scatter.

                      Any story consists of 2 parts: how they planned and what happened. I did not delve into this story, but in fact it turned out, as I described. Specify where in the army this miracle is still dragged? When I quit, he met in the army only in the APB version, it was the 91st. And as a personal weapon of officers and in the Special Forces was PM.
                      1. Alex koch
                        Alex koch 1 November 2019 19: 23 New
                        +1
                        In the east (in relation to the Russian Federation). But it turned out because, as a military weapon for combined arms officer, the pistol completely lost its role, and this became clear back in the 50s, and naturally no one would carry extra weight. But in any armed conflicts of "low intensity", when there is an option to get off the point with the fact that now with you - the APS is far from the worst option, in fact, that's why they drag who can find
                      2. Alex koch
                        Alex koch 1 November 2019 19: 54 New
                        +1
                        And for myself, without claiming credibility, from the history of adopting PM for armament, I concluded that this is not a replacement for TT in the troops, but rather a concept of pre-war TK - to weigh less, wear comfortably, but from the experience of war, so that it’s also a weapon was.
                        Hence the 9x18 cartridge (9x17 is frankly weak, 9x19 is too powerful, about 7.65, although it was also considered from the beginning, just do not say)
                      3. Doliva63
                        Doliva63 2 November 2019 07: 55 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Alex Koch
                        And for myself, without claiming credibility, from the history of adopting PM for armament, I concluded that this is not a replacement for TT in the troops, but rather a concept of pre-war TK - to weigh less, wear comfortably, but from the experience of war, so that it’s also a weapon was.
                        Hence the 9x18 cartridge (9x17 is frankly weak, 9x19 is too powerful, about 7.65, although it was also considered from the beginning, just do not say)

                        Well, with this approach, perhaps we can agree drinks
                      4. Michael HORNET
                        Michael HORNET 5 November 2019 10: 30 New
                        -3
                        In fact, the generals for selfish reasons wanted a copy of Walter PP and pushed this topic. Therefore, “completely by accident” PM turned out to be laced with Walter PP (partly constructively, essentially minus the USM, and, most importantly, ideologically)
                        Whereas the TT cartridge had real fire efficiency one hundred fifty (!) Meters more than the PM cartridge
                        And with a simple modernization, you could get even more and increase the notorious “stopping effect by switching to an even longer lively bullet
                      5. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 5 November 2019 21: 14 New
                        0
                        I don’t even want to comment, in fact, everything is absolutely topsy-turvy - Mishan, I certainly understand that you only saw a pistol in the picture, at best you shot from a rubber-nozzle, take my word for it - so that from a pistol, in calm conditions of a shooting range, you could get 100 meters into the chest needs a very good shooter, an athlete, it is not realistic to repeat the same thing in battle, at such a distance from a pistol you can only get hit by accident, TTT for a pistol and a cartridge was issued ON THE GENERALIZATION OF THE BATTLE EXPERIENCE OF THE WORLD - including from the experience of applying the same the TT itself and captured pistols according to the reports of military personnel - yes, after the war, military units were polled on the system of small arms, some of these responses from the field were extracted from the archives and published in Kalashnikov.
                        In addition, the NIPSMVO studies were conducted, according to the results of which they stopped at two calibers for further testing.
                      6. Michael HORNET
                        Michael HORNET 8 November 2019 09: 15 New
                        -2
                        You’re scumbagging, at least before you get into a puddle and fart loudly in it, saying that I didn’t shoot a pistol, I at least typed a combination of the words duel and my nickname in Google and at least at the initial stage this nonsense)))
                        The cartridge can be used not only in the gun! And the PP under this cartridge was not just a lot, but a lot. Well, getting on a hundredth by growth is also available for an arrow of average skill, if the cartridge is high-speed, like a TT - you can see a sketch of Hickok45 https://youtu.be/9rLm7eXKH6E
                        Carrying TT, even in stock form, is no less convenient than PM, but its capabilities are higher - what is the profit of switching to a deliberately weaker cartridge?
                        Despite the fact that the cartridge 7.62x25 is promising and has a foundation for the future - the 9PM is dead-end and has no future (as history has confirmed)
                      7. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 8 November 2019 20: 44 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Michael HORNET
                        You’re scumbagging, at least before you get into a puddle and fart loudly in it, saying that I didn’t shoot a pistol, I at least typed a combination of the words duel and my nickname in Google and at least at the initial stage this nonsense)))

                        Misha is delusional, with enviable regularity that you are carrying anything here in the Hansa, even more so since 2004. you participate in "duels" of knowledge, unfortunately, your level has not increased as it was extremely low, and so it remained.
                        I participated in district competitions in shooting from standard weapons from 2001 to 2008 - but as it is not paradoxical, it did not add much to me, knowledge is gained by studying the subject laughing
                        Quote: Michael HORNET
                        Well, getting on a hundredth by growth is available and the arrow of average qualification,

                        Strange and shozh you do not put popers on your hundredths in your duels? Is this not a problem even for a mid-range shooter? Especially when shooting in static from a place? laughing
                        Once again, for those who cannot read or comprehend what they read -
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        , to get 100 meters into the chest, you need a very good shooter, an athlete, to repeat the same thing in battle is not realistic,

                        What is not clear? The fact that the grandfather shoots a hitchcock and gets 75 meters from the TT in a calm home shooting range is good, I wonder if he can only get when the gong shoots in response or at least actively move? laughing

                        Quote: Michael HORNET
                        Despite the fact that the cartridge 7.62x25 is promising and has a reserve for the future

                        What touched the fix? the cartridge has been dead for a long time, in ballistics on the trajectory it does not differ much from 9X19 + P, in wound ballistics it loses the same 9x19.
                        And in any equipment. In terms of the penetrating effect of bullets of comparable designs, it slightly exceeds 9X19, but typical targets 9X19 breaks as confidently as the TT.
                        At the same time, the TT cartridge is longer, which creates problems for creating double-row magazines, or rather, problems with the dimensions of the pistol grip, in this regard 9X19 is much more profitable.
                        Quote: Michael HORNET
                        What is the profit of switching to a deliberately weaker cartridge?

                        In sufficient power, stopping and lethal action at typical pistol ranges - from 0 to 50m.
                        Of course, this is not very visible on popers and gongs, but in real cases of using PMA that I witnessed, the PMa bullet copes with its task quite efficiently, and the same punching effect is quite enough for it, and even after breaking through the head it still has energy in excess - as an example, getting through the side window into the victim’s head, a bullet pierced the skull, head restraint and one wall of the body pillar where it happily calmed down.
                        Another case was shooting through the windshield with three bullets, all bullets pierced the torso and went into the saddle, two of them calmed down in the foam and the third pierced also the steel plate of the seat frame, though the steel there was about 1 mm - but anyway.
                        The stopping effect of the identity at altitude, a stupid comparison is of little use, but experience suggests that after it hits the body from the PM or TT, it is the PM who caught the bullet that most often stops the action. Actually it’s typical how one of my comrades described his feelings after getting into the chest from the PM — he ran to the villain, felt a blow to the chest from which he began to unfold, sympathized with the second kick in the lower back that came to his senses already in the intensive care unit.
                      8. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 8 November 2019 20: 53 New
                        +1
                        PS Once again about the knowledge or rather about their lack, my last post was deleted, so I’ll duplicate - what was there about creating the PM sleeve from scratch?

                      9. Michael HORNET
                        Michael HORNET 10 November 2019 08: 40 New
                        -1
                        You have a low level
                        Based on one single coinciding parameter on the diameter of the bottom of the sleeve, draw far-reaching conclusions that "the PM sleeve is made on the basis of TT." And there everything is different
                        Is your “theory” of PM superiority based on three pistol hits? Bravo, this “level” is still to be sought, however, this is characteristic of the military. So the TT cartridge would have worked even better, and even if it had been used in the notorious “Incident in Miami” instead of 9 pairs of pistols and 38 revolvers, there would have been no sensation, Platt would have remained half-climbed out of the car, because the TT bullet, having broken through his hand, would go to the heart
                        The fact that you do not shoot and do not even have an idea how to shoot quickly and accurately is immediately obvious. It is clear that the targets do not shoot back, because it is for everyone that accuracy drops in battle - this is an axiom and you do not need to pronounce it with a smart look. The important thing is that the TT cartridge is powerful, it even has a good breakdown effect in the base, it can operate confidently up to 200 m in the appropriate weapon, and after modernization it can even reach 250 m and can even be 300 m
                        Two-row magazine 7.62x25 fits into the handle
                      10. Michael HORNET
                        Michael HORNET 13 November 2019 08: 50 New
                        0
                        Meters naturally for MPE under this cartridge, not a gun
                        But PDV type FLUX MP17 based on a pistol under the modernized 7.62x25 will be quite effective
                      11. haron
                        haron 19 November 2019 01: 07 New
                        0
                        Quote: Michael HORNET
                        Two-row magazine 7.62x25 fits into the handle

                        What size is your hand? finger length, palm geometry?
                        two-row store with 7,62, x 25 ... requires a palm more than average parameters. Or changes in the design of the arrangement of springs and rods in the handle, this complicates the design.
                        All your arguments can theoretically make sense now, when technology and material science make it possible to make durable parts easier and cheaper, and mass expansive, 7,62 equal in area of ​​contact not expansive 9 makar. The truth is that armor-piercing will not work - or flatten, go mint, in contrast to 9 mm.
                        But! Is the whole world so stupid that it won’t return to this cartridge?
                        PS. By the way. Take a look at the energy, penetration, dispersion and drop point of 9 steam and 7,6x25 after 100 meters from the MP and PPSh. You may not believe it. but it is a fact.
                      12. Michael HORNET
                        Michael HORNET 22 November 2019 09: 16 New
                        0
                        take a look at the new Rolls-Royce in the world of pistols - the FK Brno pistol under 7.5x27. There are 14 rounds in it. while the grip of the handle is almost exactly the same as that of the standard ChZ75
                        Until the 80s, all pistols had a single-row magazine, moreover, a single-row magazine is much more convenient than a double-row one when it comes to wearing, and hoping for the number of rounds does not solve when shooting from a pistol.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
      2. Oleg (Kharkov)
        Oleg (Kharkov) 2 November 2019 09: 46 New
        +2
        Quote: Alex Koch
        and naturally no one will carry excess weight.

        sorry, if you served, you understand, then "there will be no" is not an argument.
        When did you take PM? 1951 What happened that year?
        Cold war Mig-17 just started to be used. Mig-15 (bis) too.
        By March 1, 1951, the USSR had only 15 atomic bombs of the RDS-1 type.
        The United States 400 bombs arrived in the arsenal by January 1, 1951. FOUR.
        On October 8, 1951, the first Soviet aviation atomic bomb (RDS-3 with a nuclear charge of 501-M) was FIRST tested by dropping it from an airplane (Tu-4). For the first time - this means it's unclear how the rest will be. And there are only 15. And the United States has 400.
        Tu-16 is not there yet. They do it. The first flight only in a year.
        Tu - 4 will fly only 6200 with a ridiculous practical ceiling of 11200.
        Offhand, the Lockheed F-94 Starfire fighter-interceptor has a ceiling of 15m.
        The strategic Boeing B-47 Stratojet and Boeing B-52 Stratofortress are achievable only for the raw Mig-15 bis and Mig-17, which appeared in the USSR half a year or a year ago ...
        How would there be money to spend, right? In warehouses heaps of TT and Nagans.
        Police - Nagant or TT in the teeth, who are outraged - fell down the forest.
        But this is my opinion. It is clear that the design, manufacture and production of PM is not so expensive nationwide, but when every penny counts ... I don’t know ...

        The competition for the pistol was announced back in 1947. Everything is sad there. There is no bomb. No interceptor fighters. There is a Mig-9. Already 600 pieces. But the Boeing B-47 Stratojet and the Boeing B-52 Stratofortress will not get it. Berlin crisis.

        In my opinion, these were political and economic intrigues around the aging Stalin. Shout louder at the meeting: "We won't stop Dropshot with TT! Give me money for something else!"

        The war went over with the "three-line" - no one objected ... And if he did, then not for long.
        TT shot. Nagan is even better (for the police then). And most importantly - there were many reserves. And ammunition for them. And these stocks worked.
        Who thought about that ricochet? Who needed it? At the Totsk exercises, people were driven to the epicenter of an atomic explosion! and here it means that they were concerned that the ricochet did not crumble the civilians in the police shootout ... they would issue instructions for the police "shoot more carefully, because it ricochets" and this would have ended.
        In general, for a police officer, a gun is no worse than any Makarov in fact.
      3. Alex koch
        Alex koch 2 November 2019 10: 16 New
        +1
        I’d like to discuss, but I’ll imagine the volume of the text .... Well, almost everything that you wrote was exactly the opposite.
      4. Oleg (Kharkov)
        Oleg (Kharkov) 2 November 2019 14: 19 New
        0
        "Designer Sergei Gavrilovich Simonov told me that Kliment Efremovich Voroshilov insisted on replacing a simple and technologically advanced folding faceted bayonet, oxidized in black color, on his SKS carbine, also folding, but bladed and shiny. The infantry, attacking with bayonets shining in the sun, will be terrify the enemy. "
        These are the people who often made the decision to rearm. And what motives could come from!
        Or do you deny that among the top command staff of the Red Army there were no stupid people who made stupid decisions?
        One example:
        Serial production of the first PTRDs was started on September 22, 1941 at the Kovrov arms factory, in October 1941. The first installation batch was assembled - 50 shotguns. TOTAL 50!
        Production of PTRS was started in November 1941, the first released guns were transferred to the troops for testing. In November 1941, PTRS was first used in battles in the Moscow direction.
        Kiev has already been lost, half the Ukrainian SSR, BSSR, the Baltic states, a German near Moscow have been occupied, and the necessary PTRs are only just beginning to be produced!
        About single IL-2 recall? Faced with heavy losses of IL-2, which did not have defensive weapons in the rear hemisphere, the Air Force demanded that Ilyushin again make the aircraft double, which was realized by the end of 1942. By the end of 1942!
        Despite good maneuverability and adequate armor protection, single-seater Il-2s were a good target for enemy fighters. The fighter flew up to the attack aircraft from the side, or from behind and at point-blank range shot the cockpit of the guns and machine guns.
        The military demanded to increase the flight range, speed and ceiling, to lighten the plane and to do this, remove the gunner’s cabin. No matter how much Ilyushin fights, proving the need on board an air gunner who will cover the rear hemisphere from enemy fighters, nothing helped.
        He wrote to the Central Committee, and on November 7, 1940 he himself carried a letter addressed to Stalin. In early December, he was summoned to the Kremlin.
        “Comrade Ilyushin, the military believes that it is necessary to make a single-seat attack aircraft,” said Stalin. (Felix Chuev. "Ilyushin")
        And this is just a snap.
      5. Alex koch
        Alex koch 2 November 2019 17: 57 New
        +2
        Have you tried to write books with an alternative history?
      6. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 5 November 2019 10: 04 New
        +1
        He writes everything correctly. Unlike...
        Replacing a proven, powerful and reliable TT with PM / APS, with which it was then tormented for DECADES in terms of refinement (APS by the end was discontinued in general) is a real diversion
        The TT cartridge only needed to be replaced with a semi-live bullet and power additives, and the TT replacement gun was more modern with self-cocking
      7. About 2
        About 2 8 November 2019 21: 41 New
        +1
        Who is it, what the Mr. amateur was tormented with if you are not in the know then I will personally inform you that PM, in the opinion of one of the leading weapons experts of its time
        In the West, Ian Hogg is an outstanding type of weapon in terms of compactness and workmanship. As for the accuracy of shooting, go to YouTube and watch the collector’s channel Hickok 45 where he puts a bullet at 70 meters into a target from the PM 83 of the Izhevsk arms factory.
  2. gross kaput
    gross kaput 5 November 2019 22: 26 New
    +1
    Quote: Oleg (Kharkov)
    "Designer Sergei Gavrilovich Simonov told me that Kliment Efremovich Voroshilov insisted on replacing a simple and technologically advanced folding faceted bayonet, oxidized in black color, on his SKS carbine, also folding, but bladed and shiny. The infantry, attacking with bayonets shining in the sun, will be terrify the enemy. "

    Already a tear came - a long time ago I did not hear this story!
    What really happened - the SKS was worked out with a folding needle bayonet, the first batch for military tests of 1500 pieces was also with needles, but unexpectedly, on June 18, 1949, the SKS was adopted with a blade bayonet which, in fact, is not even in the drawings - a case in principle, it’s not experienced, only Voroshilov’s evil will is not seen in this, since in fact by that time he was already occupying the nominal position of deputy chairman in fact. Council of Ministers. Since the rifle was tested and tested with a needle, TOZ starts mass production of SCS with needles, GAU arranges boiling - how it’s done is not what is accepted laughing in a hurry, OKB 180 Simonov and KB plant 536 present their versions of bladed bayonets, the military pulls rubber with a choice until October and then, by the willful effort of Defense Minister Ustinov, and bypassing the test site, collect a commission from old marshals who decide which of the two bladed bayonets is correct , and only on November 3 Ustinov approves the version of the bayonet, and nowhere is the role of the "old marshals" advertised in Ustinov's order it says that he considered and he accepted. But this is only the beginning of the history of the blade - part two of the legend - bayonets shining in the sun - the blade bayonet went oxidized to the SCS, but by the mid-50s statistics on the operation of SCSs from the troops was accumulated, including the tendency to the appearance of corrosion on oxidized bayonets, and by the end of 1950 TOZ switched to the production of bayonets with a chemical coating (chrome plated) as they were more resistant to corrosion.
    As for the PTRD, PTRS, IL-2 and other things, I just recommend that you study the subject more deeply and not draw conclusions on Wikipedia - you look and some kind of integral image will develop, and you will not amuse your interlocutors with your knowledge - I recommend reading a series of articles on IL-2 " IL-2 final appearance of the machine "in the journal Aviation and Cosmonautics" for this year.
    There were quite a few publications on anti-tank missiles in the magazines Kalashnikov and World of Weapons.
  3. fed2912
    fed2912 2 November 2019 18: 12 New
    +3
    So, I can't understand why people, sometimes, completely out of place mention the Totsk teachings, where "people were driven to the epicenter of an atomic explosion!" Why, at the same time as these mentions, they never remember the Americans, who conducted far from one such teaching and drove people through the epicenter ten times more than ours?
  4. Oleg (Kharkov)
    Oleg (Kharkov) 2 November 2019 20: 28 New
    0
    Quote: fed2912
    out of place mention the Totsk teachings, where "people were driven to the epicenter of an atomic explosion!"

    in the context that few people were interested in the rebound. What they have given, so serve. The three-ruler of 1891 with a fighter in 1941-1945. did not cause any complaints.
    And then, in 1947-48, they suddenly realized that TT officers were hard, and the police were complaining of a rebound?
    1947, when the third world war is not something abstract, but reality, suddenly about TT ...
    Do you know about those years? Many cities are still funnels not bombarded with bombs ... And then, urgently, the authorities realized that the TT was out of date! No. I do not believe! It's not a caliber, it's politics. There is simply no information about this.
  5. Alex koch
    Alex koch 2 November 2019 20: 40 New
    +1
    Quote: Oleg (Kharkov)
    There is simply no information about this.

    Amazing nearby but forbidden. wink
  6. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 5 November 2019 10: 35 New
    -1
    Journalists invented these mythical complaints in the 2000s.
    In fact, the generals wanted a new toy, like the usual Walter PP, and got it. The fact that this is disarming shit and sabotage - but no one cared, lobbied, there were few literate people in the leadership
  7. gross kaput
    gross kaput 5 November 2019 21: 38 New
    0
    Quote: Oleg (Kharkov)
    How would there be something to spend money on, right?

    Of course, the leadership of the USSR is absolutely thoughtless, you don’t get hung up on a single PM — look at the problem wider and smoother — at that time, in addition to PM, you also restored factories, built housing, carried out fundamental scientific research - but it was not necessary - all the builders to the construction of nuclear centers, of all scientists, regardless of specialization in nuclear sharashka, and of all pioneers in uranium mines. laughing
    With regard to stratojet and stratofortres - take an interest in what the US Air Force achieves initial combat readiness and the number of vehicles and crews in this readiness for the period of interest, and at the same time with the radii of their operations with nuclear warheads on board, the number of airfields allowing them to be based and allowing to reach Moscow or Urals - it’s not just that the Americans several times reviewed the same drop-shot laughing
    With regards to the Totsky exercises - Duc compared to the Americans, we are generally children - it so happened that the Yankees from 51st to 57th conducted a series of Desert Rock exercises during which they only detonated fifty nuclear munitions and drove them through there are about 40 thousand military personnel, and such sweet entertainment was practiced as placing military personnel in the trenches, albeit at a fairly safe distance, but not far from the epicenter at the time of the blasting. laughing
  8. Oleg (Kharkov)
    Oleg (Kharkov) 6 November 2019 10: 04 New
    0
    Quote: gross kaput
    you on one PMe do not go in cycles

    Well, may you be right, Comrade Major, but the question is for you:
    Was it necessary to change the TT in 1947-1948? It is in these years? Plants in ruins. The third world is perceived as reality. Famine 1946-1947
    "By the spring of 1947, in the Voronezh region alone, the number of patients diagnosed with dystrophy was 250 thousand people, in total in the RSFSR - 600 thousand, in Ukraine - more than 800 thousand, in Moldova - more than 300 thousand. less than 1,7 million people in the USSR were considered "officially starving", the death rate from dystrophy reached 10% of the total number of people who were diagnosed. Also, the incidence of so-called "aseptic angina" (anemia caused by eating unharvested grain, under the snow) and other diseases associated with hunger, eating surrogates (the content of impurities in bread reached 40%), etc. The infant mortality rate was especially high, at the beginning of 1947 it was up to 20% of the total number of deaths. regions of Ukraine and the Chernozem region were noted cases of cannibalism [3], in particular, on the territory of the Ukrainian SSR from January to June 1947, 130 cases of cannibalism and 189 cases of corpse-eating were officially registered [5]. Food, however, which did not lead to mass famine, existed in the USSR until the end of the 1940s. "

    And, suddenly, at this very time, a competition is needed to replace the TT. For "what if it ricochets?"
    Let's get an analogy: You have outstanding loans. Your children are hungry. And you spend money on the purchase of a new picnic tent, for the old one is made of canvas, and the new one is made of polyamide and polyester fabrics! Nobody argues that the tent and tourism is super. No one argues that polyester is better than tarpaulin, but almost at the right time!
    You can live from hand to mouth, spending money on weapons. Jet aircraft, nuclear weapons, radars ... But Makarov, instead of TT ... I don’t know ... The USSR did not abandon Makarov in full 60-70-80. When there was extra money to experiment ... but the hungry 47-48th ... I don’t know.
  9. gross kaput
    gross kaput 6 November 2019 18: 59 New
    0
    Oleg, if you’re already looking from the side of the economy, then look at it from the other side - the war is over, so many new TT pistols are not needed - and what should Izhmekh’s employees be kicked into the street? Or feed just like that?
    With regards to weapons, it’s not just one pistol, the entire armament system has changed dramatically - from the pistol to the plane, and the entire structure of the Armed Forces from the rifle squad to the combat arms, and this was primarily due to the experience of using weapons in the war and new products that appeared and in technology, and because of this appearance, and in strategy with tactics, and with the realization that a new, even more serious war is just around the corner.
    Now, with regard to economics and economy - the transition to a new weapons system has significantly reduced the cost of producing cartridges, and the required forces and means for their transportation and storage.
  10. Oleg (Kharkov)
    Oleg (Kharkov) 6 November 2019 20: 45 New
    0
    Quote: gross kaput
    and that all employees of Izhmekh to drive out into the street? Or feed just like that?

    Do you know that in the USSR there was a shortage of spare parts from gramophones too? sewing machines ... but they probably heard about a suitcase of needles?
  11. gross kaput
    gross kaput 6 November 2019 23: 21 New
    0
    And what does that change? That the shortage of gramophone needles was eternal and permanent? Or was everything solved in parallel? Excuse me, but are you writing nonsense - today our gramophone needles are over and we are hastily transferring all plants to their production?
    Once again, before making any far-reaching conclusions, study a little history, and even such a specific subject as the production of weapons. To begin with, if we are talking about factories, take an interest in how many factories from the People’s Commissariats of Armament and ammunition were transferred to the medium industry.
    Yes, and you already decide what should be done instead of PMA - nuclear weapons or sewing machines.
    Your whole problem is that you judge by the tops — by articles from the wiki and horror stories from the yellow press, without even trying to understand what was happening at that time period.
    And the following happened, it’s no secret to anyone that in the 45-50s the probability of war between the former allies was very high, and the USSR did not strive for this.
    As regards the atomic bomb, in fact, even though the weapon had been with unprecedented power up to that time, its capabilities are already greatly exaggerated, the power of those warheads was tactical by modern standards, i.e. they coped well with wooden city buildings and large concentrations of myrrh, as in Hiroshima, but, for example, they were guaranteed to destroy dispersed living equipment and tanks, even in primitive field shelters, they could only in a very limited space not exceeding the ROP, and we this was understood no worse than in the states; in fact, a series of American Nevada desert rock and our Totsky and Semipolatinsk teachings confirmed this. So, in a future war, the key role should still belong to standard types of weapons and combat arms adjusted for nuclear weapons.
    Moreover, nuclear weapons were given the same role as earlier than the massive bombing of cities - i.e., striking large cities, primarily to destroy the economy and suppress the will to resist civilians.
    And we were in a hurry with the development of our bomb not because of its "wunderfuck", but based on the fact that the Americans and the Britons consider nuclear weapons to be such an ace in the sleeve, giving them a serious advantage, but having learned about the appearance of the same ace, the enemy will think hard about whether to start at all war. But if the war still happened in the next few years after the Second World War, then we had to fight exactly the same as in 41-45, and here the superiority and perfection of tanks, artillery, aviation and small arms played a role in the first place ...
    That is why the development of new types of military equipment and weapons was not at a slower pace than the development of nuclear weapons.
  • About 2
    About 2 8 November 2019 21: 28 New
    0
    At the expense of peacetime weapons and all that frank stupidity, and your APS rights subscriber is a weapon primarily for crews of armored vehicles, but the high cost of manufacture, the severity and inconvenience of wearing made the APS refuse.
  • revnagan
    revnagan 30 October 2019 12: 22 New
    +2
    Quote: bistrov.
    In addition, a preliminary cocking of the trigger is needed for the shot, and this is a loss of valuable time, if necessary, to make an urgent shot.

    In order to make the FIRST shot, you need to cock the TT? Why? Just remove from the safety platoon, go ahead, press laughing .Well, the PM must be removed from the fuse, and shoot with self-cocking. The whole difference is in the PM fuse, in the TT-pre-cocking ....
    1. Shopping Mall
      30 October 2019 12: 40 New
      +3
      Quote: revnagan
      Quote: bistrov.
      In addition, a preliminary cocking of the trigger is needed for the shot, and this is a loss of valuable time, if necessary, to make an urgent shot.

      In order to make the FIRST shot, you need to cock the TT? Why? Just remove from the safety platoon, go ahead, press laughing .Well, the PM must be removed from the fuse, and shoot with self-cocking. The whole difference is in the PM fuse, in the TT-pre-cocking ....


      There is operational experience with both PM and TT in the traumatic version (PM and in combat). PMSM TT is still uncomfortable. PM can be put on the fuse and remove it from it, thereby making the trigger safe, i.e. You can open fire immediately after removal. And accidentally squeeze the descent by self-cocking it is necessary to try.

      There is such a moment in TT. If you sent a cartridge to the chamber, then you need to remove the trigger from the combat platoon, i.e. in fact, pulling the trigger, gently release the trigger. In a stressful situation, with sweating or wet hands, there is a risk of the trigger slipping off and firing a random shot. No wonder the Zig-Sauers put a decker.
      1. revnagan
        revnagan 30 October 2019 20: 58 New
        -5
        Quote: AVM
        In a stressful situation, with sweating or wet hands, there is a risk of the trigger slipping off and firing a random shot.

        Theoretically, yes, there is. But why in a stressful situation put the TT on the fuse? There is already a need to shoot there. Although there may have been situations that need to be put on the previous platoon. But, in my opinion, this is not essential.
        1. Michael HORNET
          Michael HORNET 5 November 2019 10: 10 New
          0
          Well, they would replace the TT as a gun
          Moreover, there was technical documentation for the Vojvodina pistol
          The fact that under such conditions changing the PATRON (immediately having completely crossed out all stocks of machine gun pistols, and there were many of them) was idiocy and smacked of treason.
        2. haron
          haron 19 November 2019 01: 28 New
          0
          Quote: revnagan
          Theoretically, yes, there is. But why in a stressful situation put the TT on the fuse? There is already a need to shoot there. Although there may have been situations that need to be put on the previous platoon. But, in my opinion, this is not essential.

          But was there a self-cocking in TT?
          In a critical situation, it was necessary to pull the frame - spend 2-3 seconds and rattle with iron. Or to do as they wrote above, with the risk of firing at the wrong time, and then spend time cocking the finger with your finger.
          And this time, seconds. In urban areas and buildings, this is death.
          Don't tell me, ask those who work in the houses. Better yet, read those who fought with nationalists in the west of the USSR after the war, in the forest, dugouts, trenches, houses. Believe me, you will learn a lot about interesting and not pleasant things about TT.
          1. revnagan
            revnagan 27 November 2019 16: 27 New
            -1
            I still worked with him. Unpleasantly, the store can pop up at the most inopportune moment, during disassembling the tip of the return spring often flies away. Well, it’s a normal machine.
            1. haron
              haron 28 November 2019 10: 52 New
              0
              Quote: revnagan
              and so normal machine.

              naturally. If she was not normal "so-so" she would not have passed the selection. And there was plenty to choose from.
              At that time, with those initial conditions in industry, medicine, politics, law., And much more, the choice of TT and this cartridge was optimal. But time is changing the starting points for choice.
              You can again start production of the VAZ 2101. At the same time, introduce new materials, install new electronics, improve ergonomics ..... But at the same time, leave the appearance and working patterns of the main units unchanged (carburetor, type of engine and fuel, box and suspension design) . Will it be optimal and logical for today?
              as a youth, from an inherited IL combi, I brought the engine to 105 l / s on the shaft. As a result, the car died in a turn. Her chassis could not withstand the dynamic parameters of a new heart. Fortunately, everyone is alive.
              And how much effort expended !!! Well, at least I am amused and most importantly brought the necessary lesson ... with blood.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 30 October 2019 09: 36 New
    +2
    The cartridge was replaced due to weapons in the hands of the population.


    But what about trophy weapons? It was in the hands of the population, perhaps, more than domestic. What, to demand from the world community to prohibit the production of a 9x19 cartridge?
    Sorry, colleague, but you wrote complete nonsense.
    1. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 30 October 2019 09: 49 New
      -3
      This fact is known. In particular, voiced in the reference book of the Beetle.
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 30 October 2019 10: 31 New
      -1
      The beetle is certainly authoritative, but do not remember who he worked for and where?
    3. ssergey1978
      ssergey1978 30 October 2019 11: 14 New
      +1
      But did Soviet citizens have free access to the world community. It’s easier with captured weapons, sooner or later the stock of cartridges will end and there will be no replenishment where, unlike the Soviet-style cartridges
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 30 October 2019 11: 33 New
        +3
        The 9x19 cartridge was also produced in the Union. But I meant that changing the pistol caliber has nothing to do with the presence of "left" barrels among the population. Therefore, the joke about the ban on this ammunition in the West. )))
        In addition, hardly anyone, having such a barrel "just in case", will fire from it every day, having nothing to do with wasting ammunition.
        1. ssergey1978
          ssergey1978 30 October 2019 11: 38 New
          0
          9x19 was not produced in the USSR. They only made blank cartridges for a film studio and these cartridges were suitable for both 9x19 weapons and 7.62x25 weapons
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 30 October 2019 13: 31 New
            -2
            Sergey, here you are wrong. This cartridge was produced in the Union, as well as 7,62 Browning, but there was no manufacturer’s marking on the bottom, there were dots.
            As for the film studio, with the guys from the weapons department at Mosfilm, we fired 9x19 cartridges from TT, but only single, the bullet was all "licked", but the shot was quite "practical". So the cartridges fit, but only for one shot, then the barrel wedged, or there was no ejection, or the feed did not go.
            1. ssergey1978
              ssergey1978 30 October 2019 14: 02 New
              0
              I heard about a shot from the TT cartridge 9x18 om but a bullet without a steel core and not every cartridge goes into the nickname cartridge. The cartridge for bolzhen has tolerances on the upper bar or broken. Recharge of course not. Shot by the criminalist of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 30 October 2019 14: 50 New
                0
                The fact of the matter is that the Luger is not 9mm, but 8,8mm, if I am not mistaken, and Makarovsky is 9,1mm. As in the "eight" no shove, Makar will not get through there, with any core, the sleeve will not allow.
                1. prodi
                  prodi 30 October 2019 16: 01 New
                  0
                  In this regard, it is not clear, but what generally prevented the TT-ash cartridge from being brought up to 8.5mm?
                2. ssergey1978
                  ssergey1978 30 October 2019 18: 48 New
                  0
                  I’ll explain again: in the manufacture of the product, there is a fork of supplemental supplements, for example, a chamber clearance of 0.3 mm in both directions. In the manufacture of the cartridge, there is also a clearance plug, for example, also 0.3 mm in both directions.
                  Now an example: the chamber was produced within a tolerance of 9.3 mm in diameter, and the cartridge was also manufactured with a tolerance but in the opposite direction, that is, 8.7 mm.
                  Both products were manufactured within the tolerance and are not defective.
                3. John22
                  John22 30 October 2019 23: 05 New
                  0
                  The diameter of the bullet cartridge Luger, just 9,00 mm. But the sleeve has a dulz f 9,65 mm. The chamber length is 17,2 mm. The PM f bullet cartridge has a 9,12 mm bullet, and a dultaz 9,85 mm bullet. If you grind the dulce by 0,2 mm, then the PM cartridge enters, shoots and exits calmly. And the bullet goes right along the barrel.
                4. haron
                  haron 19 November 2019 01: 32 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  The fact of the matter is that Luger is not 9mm, but 8,8 mm, if not mistaken, but Makarovsky is 9,1 mm.

                  Luger - 9,02. Makar 9,2
            2. alatanas
              alatanas 31 October 2019 10: 57 New
              +1
              Browning 7,65
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 31 October 2019 11: 41 New
                0
                Quite right, I have a typo, it’s good that they corrected it, otherwise no one has been paying attention for a day, including myself. hi
      2. parkello
        parkello 1 November 2019 11: 30 New
        +2
        oh well, on our islands in general no one ever delivers cartridges. there everyone charges the cartridges for the second and third and thirty-third times and nothing, no one whines. even the cartridges with Berdan’s capsule manage to reload, though most often they simply drill it and put the Boxer’s capsule on, and that’s it .. you make a spoon out of the gunpowder case. and press the bullet there. especially after the war, at that time even my grandmother knew how to spin cartridges (although she was a gynecologist). PM was easier to manufacture, less working hours for a lathe and a milling machine, it was more compact and self-cocking. that's why he was accepted into service. and the rest of the TT is better, more powerful and more precisely that PM. everything else is from the evil one. my grandfather had Walter P-38. trophy .. my father shot pigs from him. he loaded rounds of ammunition, although there were at least two buckets in the village ... and he didn’t even keep a time sheet PM at home, and jokingly called it a fart .. compared to the same TT and Walter. I don’t know how opera and SOBR officers are. But for example I really like PM. for the civilian market, this is an excellent weapon, but not for the army ... here it is rather weak for the army. and the TT did not have a self-winding-up, when it is enough to get a gun and press the trigger. it had to be distorted or removed from the preliminary platoon. but as for me, the TT would be quite suitable for the army. If you put on it the button for removing from the platoon, which will complicate the design, but it will give it advantages .a PM .. it is for the police, for the police .. for such .. not very paramilitary structures . for the civilian market, for self-defense, a great gun. It fits comfortably in your hand, has a soft recoil compared to the TT, it’s easy to return to the aiming line, you can cock it on your pants. Or torso in one motion. . try to jerk the Beret M-9 about your knee ... correctly and pick up your knees and as a result you will distort your hands and lose time. I had a lot of different. Albanian TT. Bulgarian PM with 10 charging magazines, was Walter P-99 and Bereta M-9 ... and for the first time in the army I ran with Colt 1911, 45 caliber ... as a driver mechanic M-113 relied on short-barreled weapons. by the way a very good gun .. for the driver, in the sense .. for self-defense, but he does not fit into assault squads. small store capacity. the bullet quickly loses its strength compared to the TT or M-9. so there were questions to the heap of weapons ... when they took the PM. And do not forget that the PM was adopted during the era of global nuclear bombing, which was provided for by the command of the USSR and US Armed Forces in the first place. (as the Strategic Missile Forces joked at us, that they would shoot themselves, as a man of honor, if a war starts, and the war was expected with the use of nuclear weapons, where the caliber of the pistol and its power did not play any role whatsoever)
    4. revnagan
      revnagan 30 October 2019 12: 25 New
      -3
      Quote: Sea Cat
      But what about trophy weapons?

      By the way, the children of the post-war generation had many "toys" under 9 mm in their hands. PARA and they worked for 9mm PM, which they could get hold of a local policeman.
      1. ssergey1978
        ssergey1978 30 October 2019 12: 58 New
        0
        The PM gauge is more than 9x19. In principle, if the nickname cartridge is broken, then the PM cartridge will climb, and the bullet in the table will squeeze. Just what to do with overcharging and a shutter mirror
        1. Ezekiel 25-17
          Ezekiel 25-17 31 October 2019 07: 30 New
          +1
          Caliber 9 mm and there and there. The diameter of the stola PM 9, 27 mm, and weapons under the cartridge 9 × 19 mm: 8,8 mm.
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 30 October 2019 13: 34 New
        0
        I myself am from the "children of the post-war generation" and there were not so many such toys. And, before writing something like that, try to push the 9x18 cartridge into the chamber of the same "eight".
        1. ssergey1978
          ssergey1978 30 October 2019 15: 11 New
          0
          Again. if the chamber tolerance is on the top, and the pm tolerance of the cartridge is on the bottom, then it will fit
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 30 October 2019 15: 37 New
            0
            And you try to shove Makar into the "eight" or in P.38, I tried. Well, with a mallet, of course, you can drive a "fifty kopeck" into TT, if you really try.
        2. revnagan
          revnagan 30 October 2019 20: 51 New
          -1
          I have a father from that era. Their "gang" of teenagers did not have anything. It seems that there was a "Luger". Why should he lie?
  • andrewkor
    andrewkor 30 October 2019 07: 13 New
    +1
    The author clearly initiates a polemic in the expert community on the topic of what has long been rubbed, and he will chuckle aside.
    He probably did not hear about the ammunition of the Nitroexpress class or was too lazy to find out. Wiki to help him.
    577NE, 600NE, 700NE !!!!!!
    1. Shopping Mall
      30 October 2019 07: 57 New
      +4
      Quote: andrewkor
      The author clearly initiates a polemic in the expert community on the topic of what has long been rubbed, and he will chuckle aside.


      On the sidelines will not)

      Quote: andrewkor
      He probably did not hear about the ammunition of the Nitroexpress class or was too lazy to find out. Wiki to help him.
      577NE, 600NE, 700NE !!!!!!


      The question is not what they are, this is for the pistol .44 Magnum and .50AE cartridges, but what is considered minimally sufficient for hunting such large game.
  • Evil echo
    Evil echo 30 October 2019 08: 51 New
    +4
    Honestly, I did not understand from the article WHY?
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 5 November 2019 10: 13 New
      -1
      Sabotage and idiocy
      The generals wanted a new toy for themselves, there are no rational explanations and can not be - they replaced the cool POWERFUL combat cartridge, with which they won the war, by some sort of scumbag, weak, worthless, inferior in all respects! But it looks like Walter PP / PPK, to which senior officers have become addicted during the war years. Now it’s clear why Makarov so diligently licked his appearance and borrowed fundamental constructive solutions precisely from Walter PP - yes because the generals wanted to see this (“Oh, Walter PP, but we take ours)
      At the same time, all stocks of machine guns were nullified
      The idiocy of this decision is beyond description, but within the framework of state treason
  • bunta
    bunta 30 October 2019 09: 17 New
    +5
    then the characteristics of the 9x18 PM cartridge are still quite relevant, especially in conjunction with an increased capacity store.
    cartridge characteristics coupled with the store? :)
    According to statistics on the combat use of PM in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, in only 4% of cases, it was necessary to resort to a change in the regular store. Those. full capacity is enough.
    1. stroybat ZABVO
      stroybat ZABVO 30 October 2019 15: 50 New
      +1
      Hi!
      Looking through the cases of armed attacks and armed resistance in Argentina, I came to the "conclusion" that more than two or three (three, this is almost unbelievable) shots from each side do not happen.
      Therefore, in a revolver for 6 rounds I "stuff" 5 rounds, and in Taurus PT92 I "drive" 7 rounds.
      All the same, they will no longer be able to shoot.
      Yes, and all bullets are "expansive".
      1. Shopping Mall
        30 October 2019 16: 09 New
        +2
        Quote: stroybat ZABVO
        Hi!
        Looking through the cases of armed attacks and armed resistance in Argentina, I came to the "conclusion" that more than two or three (three, this is almost unbelievable) shots from each side do not happen.
        Therefore, in a revolver for 6 rounds I "stuff" 5 rounds, and in Taurus PT92 I "drive" 7 rounds.
        All the same, they will no longer be able to shoot.
        Yes, and all bullets are "expansive".


        It happens more if the enemy is hefty and stoned
        1. ssergey1978
          ssergey1978 30 October 2019 19: 12 New
          0
          The Frenchman begged well.
          1. Shopping Mall
            31 October 2019 08: 07 New
            0
            Quote: ssergey1978
            The Frenchman begged well.


            He managed to kill one of the policemen to death. It seems that in total they put about 15 bullets into it ...
            1. Wildcat
              Wildcat 31 October 2019 14: 18 New
              +2
              hi
              The Frenchman received part of the bullets already lying down, but the question of shooting, of course, remains.
              Our 9 * 18 is also not the most lethal pill, although it depends on what to compare: we also had our own legendary business, like "Massacre in Miami" and "Shootout in North Hollywood": for 8 opponents 46 shots from PM, 33 hits, 18 became the direct cause of death.
              33 hits on 8 corpses.
              1. Michael HORNET
                Michael HORNET 13 November 2019 08: 53 New
                -1
                The paradox, however, is that if the FBI agents had TT pistols, we would not even have heard about this episode, since both hijackers would have died immediately and would not have shown any “amazing survivability ...”
                1. Wildcat
                  Wildcat 13 November 2019 15: 38 New
                  +3
                  I’m afraid that people accustomed to .38 revolvers were in a hurry, a TT with its handle and sufficiently strong recoil would be even less useful and would bring an even smaller number of hits.
                  There, the FBI had automatic pistols, SW 459, the shooters even managed to shoot more than one magazine, one was even able to reload the revolver! But the "main" weapon: shotguns, and the .223 rifle - proved their advantage over pistols (in the hands of those who managed to take it: it was inconvenient to get it out of the trunk and back seat.) Not that this was an original conclusion, but " repetition is the mother of learning. "
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 30 October 2019 09: 19 New
    +6
    The question is backfill: what will happen to the representative of the Big Five if they hit Gerlich’s conditional bullet capable of making an 15 mm hole in an armor plate with a thickness of 12 mm, or its modern analogue with an initial energy of the order of 10 000 J?


    It will pass right through, that is, energy will fly away in vain. And the animal will run, possibly on the shooter. In the case of shooting at people, for example, policemen in a crowded place - this is simply unacceptable, since left victims are possible. On the hunt, of course, it’s not so dangerous, to shoot there in general where people can’t be, but everything happens. But if a bulletproof vest is impenetrable with such a bullet on a beast, then he will be fired, a blow of such a force will even mix an elephant's gut.
    1. Shopping Mall
      30 October 2019 09: 40 New
      +3
      Quote: EvilLion
      The question is backfill: what will happen to the representative of the Big Five if they hit Gerlich’s conditional bullet capable of making an 15 mm hole in an armor plate with a thickness of 12 mm, or its modern analogue with an initial energy of the order of 10 000 J?


      It will pass right through, that is, energy will fly away in vain. And the animal will run, possibly on the shooter.

      But this is just a controversial issue. The "animals" have skin and bones like that other bulletproof vest, + propagation of shock waves and so on. Much will depend on the shape of the bullet head.

      That is the question of how to determine which caliber will make a neat through hole, and which ragged hole? Take 12,7x108 mm with an energy of 12000-15000 J, because it tears off the limbs. It would seem, why shouldn't he also make a hole with a diameter of 12,7 mm? We begin to reduce the caliber - 11 mm, 10 mm, 9 mm, etc. At what diameter the limb tearing off will stop, and there will be "It will pass right through, i.e., energy will fly away in vain"And after all, the bullet of the cartridge 12,7x108 mm is sharp, and if it is 5-7 mm, but dull, with the same energy?"
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 30 October 2019 11: 58 New
        +5
        There are so many stories here, when they shoot at boars from a Kalash, it pierces through and through, and there’s not much sense. The hardness is not comparable with steel, otherwise it will be impossible to wear it.

        If the limb is torn off, the bullet will continue to fly anyway, and not get stuck in it. That is, energy is still an excess. The 18 century guns with round bullets are simply huge in caliber and maimed like the rifle 7.65x54 did not even dream of, and yes, their speed is low.
        1. Shopping Mall
          30 October 2019 12: 49 New
          +1
          Quote: EvilLion
          There are so many stories here, when they shoot at boars from a Kalash, it pierces through and through, and there’s not much sense.


          There are many stories, but how interesting is it that a bullet 7,62x54R with an energy of 5000 J does not pierce through, and 7,62x39 or 5,45х39 with an energy of 1500 J breaks? Rather, there are two events - the penetration of the skin and the fat layer by bullets from an automatic machine (i.e. insufficient penetration depth, as in the case of the 5,45x18 MPC cartridge and a person), and the presence of misses.

          Quote: EvilLion
          The hardness is not comparable with steel, otherwise it will be impossible to wear it.


          Of course not, but in total the skin + fat + bones + muscles is a serious obstacle for a bullet. In general, materials of comparable strength do not have to have a comparable mass, remember composites in body armor.

          Quote: EvilLion
          If the limb is torn off, the bullet will continue to fly anyway, and not get stuck in it. That is, energy is still an excess.


          That's it, the main thing is energy.

          Quote: EvilLion
          The 18 century guns with round bullets are simply huge in caliber and maimed like the rifle 7.65x54 did not even dream of, and yes, their speed is low.


          From what distance? It is difficult to assess here; there are no reliable modern studies.
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion 30 October 2019 12: 56 New
            +4
            And who said that the rifle cartridge does not penetrate? But in general, 7.62X54 was made for firing at long range and especially for cavalry. If you get a horse in the chest, and it’s where you will get, most likely when the rider rushes at you, then the bullet will have to go through the horse’s entire body and will definitely not pierce it through and through.

            About fat, perhaps, by the way, the gladiators were also full, perhaps in order to minimize the risk of shallow injuries.

            The guns of the 18 century meters at 300 shoot maximum.

            With police pistols, high penetration is not necessary for sure, it is dangerous for outsiders. That is, a lot of energy should be achieved due to the mass of the bullet, and not speed. The barrel resource is most likely secondary there, the policeman rarely opens fire, well, only shoot at the shooting range. Amid the intensity of military firing, this is nothing.
            1. Shopping Mall
              30 October 2019 13: 06 New
              +3
              Quote: EvilLion
              And who said that the rifle cartridge does not penetrate?


              This is because if the bullet of the cartridge 7,62x39 or cartridge 7,62x54 pierces the carcass through, then the effect will be the same. The caliber is the same, the shape of the bullet is almost the same, respectively, they will transfer energy to the carcass approximately the same, and cause the same damage. However, 7,62x54 is considered acceptable for boar hunting, but 7,62x39 is not. And they differ only in the initial energy of the bullet.

              7,62 × 39 mm
              Real bullet caliber, mm 7,85
              Bullet weight, up to 12,6
              Energy bullet, J to 2206

              7,62 × 54 mm R
              Real bullet caliber, mm 7,92 -0,05
              Bullet weight, g to 13,75
              Energy bullet, J to 4151
              1. CTABEP
                CTABEP 31 October 2019 04: 48 New
                0
                The size of the runway depends on the speed and caliber of the bullet, therefore, under equal calibers and equal conditions (a wound on a flight without touching the bones), a more high-speed bullet will cause a more serious injury. However, the size of the runway also depends on the caliber, plus bullets of a larger caliber with equal kinetic energy at the moment they hit during the passage through the body will give him more energy. On small calibers, in order to achieve a serious stopping effect, it is necessary to increase the speed of the bullet above 700 m / s - however, such speeds even with PDW chambered for 5,7x28 are hardly achieved. Therefore, nevertheless, for pistols in this regard, an increase in caliber is a simpler solution.
                1. Shopping Mall
                  31 October 2019 08: 19 New
                  0
                  Quote: CTABEP
                  The size of the runway depends on the speed and caliber of the bullet, therefore, under equal calibers and equal conditions (a wound on a flight without touching the bones), a more high-speed bullet will cause a more serious injury. However, the size of the runway also depends on the caliber, plus bullets of a larger caliber with equal kinetic energy at the moment they hit during the passage through the body will give him more energy. On small calibers, in order to achieve a serious stopping effect, it is necessary to increase the speed of the bullet above 700 m / s - however, such speeds even with PDW chambered for 5,7x28 are hardly achieved. Therefore, nevertheless, for pistols in this regard, an increase in caliber is a simpler solution.


                  To form a runway at a lower speed, a flat head is made at the bullet, then the speed can be of the order of 600 m / s, which is just on the PDW under the cartridge 5,7x28.

                  Another question is that the impact of the runway on the striking characteristics of the cartridge, according to the FBI 1986 report of the year, is not so significant. But more about that today in an article that should be published after 18.00
              2. haron
                haron 19 November 2019 02: 14 New
                0
                Quote: AVM
                7,62 × 39 mm
                Real bullet caliber, 7,85 mm
                Bullet weight, up to 12,6
                Energy of a bullet, J to 2206

                7,62 × 54 mm R
                The real caliber of the bullet, mm 7,92-0,05
                Bullet weight, g to 13,75
                Energy of a bullet, J to 4151

                Both bullets have a diameter of 7,92. On the wiki, look not at the left post, but at the links and drawings below. trunks at mosinki and AK are the same.
                7,85 is the NATO diameter caliber 308, 30-06
                M43 bullet weight 7,6 grams. 12,5 is in subsonic.
                Quote: AVM
                And they differ only in the initial energy of the bullet.


                Energy is two times more dependent on speed than on mass. According to this, speed is twice as important. (simple).
                The result of the damage depends not so much on the amount of energy transferred, but on how it was transmitted. First of all, from the pulse of energy transfer. The presence or absence of cavitation and damage to organs at a distance depends on this. from the wound channel.
                Simpler.
                what speed, with the help of an impulse, the bullet will transmit to the tissues. If the speed is less than the tensile strength characteristics of the fabric (elasticity), then there will be an awl. If a bullet pushes the fabric and it flies away faster than the bullet moves, then GDP is formed, and when breaking the tensile strength of the fabric, explosive action occurs.
                the mass allows for as long as possible to maintain high speed along the channel.
                That is, the light will explode on the first 5 cm, and then sewed. A heavy one will explode throughout the canal.
                It seems clear wrote))
            2. Sibiriya
              Sibiriya 30 October 2019 18: 05 New
              +1
              Not a single barrel can kill (guaranteed to stop) a person when hit. Everything is decided first of all by the skill of the shooter, and then the power of the weapon. Actually about PM I can say a few things:
              - Vigorous opening of the shutter and its energetic closing, which makes shooting a nightmare. The gun twitches violently, making it difficult to restore the sight and greatly wearying the shooter;
              - Thin front sight, more suitable for target weapons, such as shooting at a shooting range;
              - An inconvenient handle with an unsuitable ratio of thickness and width, which is not optimal for the grip angle of inclination - is difficult to control the gun during firing;
              - The course of the descent is long, while you are squeezing, I want to pull faster, you know);
              As a military weapon for the army and structures, the pistol is hopelessly outdated for a long time, and it was created according to the 1944-45 TK.
              Statistics of the use of weapons by the police in Moscow and the region for 2018

              Thanks to the author for an interesting article. good
              1. gross kaput
                gross kaput 31 October 2019 22: 04 New
                +2
                Where is this tablet coming from? Samopal? Somehow it happened that by 2018
                1 - SOBR withdrew from the Ministry of Internal Affairs under the subordination of the WG (and in Moscow it had long been called an OMSN and, together with riot police, was a member of the Central Internal Security Service in Strogino)
                2- OVO - exactly the same transferred to the WG
                3- Policeman driver, UIM, MOB - recall when the police became the police?
                4-OBEP - do not remind me when OEBiPK appeared instead of this structure?
                5-OBNON - The Main Directorate for Drug Control - no, haven't you heard?
                6-Organized Crime Control Department - I wonder what year is in the yard? Maybe in the tablet an extra ten years has gone awry?
                1. Sibiriya
                  Sibiriya 31 October 2019 23: 15 New
                  0
                  A typo, an official 2014 tablet, which essentially does not change the statue much.
                  1. gross kaput
                    gross kaput 1 November 2019 14: 02 New
                    +2
                    Quote: Siberia
                    official plate 2014,

                    It cannot be official by definition - the police were renamed the police in 2011. in it, everything is spelled out under the names of regular police posts.
                    Neither when a person belonging to the structure of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, all the more to the headquarters - and the compilation of such tables is the lot of the headquarters - will the MOB be called "external service", the investigation and inquiry never referred to the "operational staff", besides these are two different structures - inquiry structurally was a subdivision of the MOB, i.e. The Public Security Militia (since you have the MOB registered in your table), the inquiry has now been transferred to a separate service for the organization of inquiry, and the investigators are attributed to justice and are subordinate to the investigation departments, in fact, it was written in the documents earlier - the Investigation Department of the Internal Affairs Directorate (OMVD).
                    1. Sibiriya
                      Sibiriya 1 November 2019 14: 07 New
                      0
                      I think you're right, apparently there has been a clear confusion over the years, Perhaps the table is not compiled correctly. The source previously did not cause doubts. Thanks. hi
                      1. Okolotochny
                        Okolotochny 4 November 2019 23: 49 New
                        +1
                        A colleague is a big kaput right - for the Organized Crime Control Department, they were optimized about a dozen years ago. Anti-drug - UPDATES were until 2003. Then, with the optimization of the tax police, Drug Control was created. What is now in his place? HZ. But not GUBNON and OBNON it is for sure
  • Avior
    Avior 30 October 2019 09: 55 New
    +6
    Based on the foregoing, there is no sufficient reason to believe that the reason for choosing a pistol cartridge of caliber 9 mm was its greater stopping effect compared to a cartridge of caliber 7,62 mm.

    From the foregoing, there is no reason to argue that the choice of caliber 9 mm was not determined for reasons of stopping action.
    Especially considering the fact that the whole world has switched to 9 mm with few exceptions.
    1. Shopping Mall
      30 October 2019 10: 09 New
      +4
      Quote: Avior
      Based on the foregoing, there is no sufficient reason to believe that the reason for choosing a pistol cartridge of caliber 9 mm was its greater stopping effect compared to a cartridge of caliber 7,62 mm.

      From the foregoing, there is no reason to argue that the choice of caliber 9 mm was not determined for reasons of stopping action.


      I proceed from the fact that there is no information about systematic studies of this issue in the USSR at that time. As if to prove it is necessary the presence of something, and not the absence.

      Quote: Avior
      Especially considering the fact that the whole world has switched to 9 mm with few exceptions.


      The whole world at one time switched from the caliber 7,62 to 5,56 / 5,45 mm, and all this time the debate about its effectiveness and the feasibility of such a transition did not stop. And now the U.S. Army is about to move to the 6,8 mm caliber with enthusiasm. So this is not proof.

      Or take an example using the FBI and police .38 caliber revolvers, by the way this is 9 mm, the stopping effect of which is now considered insufficient.

      The inertia of thinking is a terrible thing, especially in such bulky mechanisms as the armed forces or the Ministry of Internal Affairs. It is possible that the same Five-seveN pistol Caliber 5,7x28 mm is much more effective than the M17 selected by competition, but it is very unusual. Do you know how the mechanism works in such structures? There is something and okay, to take something radically new is a risk, in case of an error, heads will fly, and who needs it?
      1. Avior
        Avior 30 October 2019 11: 55 New
        +7
        these reasons are in the reports of field surgeons of the Second World War, after which the final transition to 9 mm took place throughout the world.
        These are statistics, not theoretical studies.
        And they are so obvious that there is no reason to bring them constantly.
        They have long been in the archives.
      2. dokusib
        dokusib 30 October 2019 11: 59 New
        +1
        Here somewhere on the site in my summer there was a series of articles about the history of the study of gunshot wounds. Do not be too lazy to find and read. Very interesting reading.
  • Ezekiel 25-17
    Ezekiel 25-17 30 October 2019 11: 10 New
    +6
    So, with regard to hunting weapons (I will make a reservation only about an elephant, a rhinoceros and a buffalo): in principle, you can fill them up from 7,62 × 54, but sport hunting involves hunting in the bush at a distance of 25 yards, and for this you need target fitting of caliber 500 or even more. Its stopping effect is such that when a bullet hits the head, the elephant will be thrown back and it will sit on its backside and be finished off with a second shot, if necessary. This is a quote from the book "The Hunter" by John Hunter. With regards to pistol cartridges: 9 × 19 is used so massively for economic reasons, production is debugged, etc. 7x62 was dismissed due to its excess power but weak stopping power. It hits right where it is not needed. The 25x9 doesn't have that. As a self-defense weapon, it is ideal.
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 5 November 2019 10: 42 New
      -1
      7.62x25 has no "insufficient stopping effect", this is an invention of illiterate journalism
      For understanding - I advise you to see the ballistic test for gelatin PM and TT. Still questions "what is more effective" is? At the same time, the real effective range for cartridges is TWO different
      Even officially, according to test reports, the 9PM cartridge was inferior to ALL 7.62 PARAMETERS, including the stopping action, to the 25xXNUMX cartridge
      In ALL respects! At the same time, 7.62x25 still had enormous potential for growth - now it would be easy to make a 300-meter cartridge with more than enough stopping effect, it is enough to use a slightly shortened bullet from 7.62x39
      But the PM cartridge had one unique advantage - it worked in a PM pistol, similar to Walter PP, and THIS outweighed all the advantages of a TT pistol and billions of rounds of ammunition in warehouses and millions of weapons under it in anticipation of a total nuclear war
      Call the diversion in your own names
      1. haron
        haron 19 November 2019 02: 25 New
        0
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        Even officially, according to test reports, the 9PM cartridge was inferior to ALL 7.62 PARAMETERS, including the stopping action, to the 25xXNUMX cartridge

        What protocols ??
        Are you kidding or do you believe.
        If the latter, then check the OFFICIAL data on the GRAU tests during and after the war. There was no advantage in everything. Especially in the distances from 50 m (depending on the type of weapon), and the striking effect of 50 meters and more, and other nuances. In some ways, one in something else, but in the aggregate of ALL parameters, including the economy, 9 mm was better.
        1. Michael HORNET
          Michael HORNET 22 November 2019 09: 25 New
          0
          this is a lie, and arrogant. If you read carefully, you see the full advantage of 7.62x25 in ALL parameters - and in killer. and stopping, and DPA, and accuracy. 9 PM showed its full advantage over 7.65 Browning, for the replacement of which the general himself actually planned.
      2. Mikhail Zhukov
        Mikhail Zhukov 13 June 2020 12: 15 New
        0
        Of course, it's too late, but can you see references to these very protocols? Because it’s customary to confirm your words, and from you more emotion and expression are all fools, you are one genius, etc. d.
  • dgonni
    dgonni 30 October 2019 13: 50 New
    +6
    7,62 by 25 great ammo! But the principle of adopting weapons in the Russian Empire and the USSR ammunition and weapons under them was dictated not by the military but by the general economic situation. Nagan was adopted in caliber 7,62 due to the possibility of remaking dead rifle trunks. Tokarev for the same reason, but more from the experience of the Civil War and the presence of wild stocks of German cartridges in caliber 7,63.
    After the Second World War, in principle, you had to take 9/19 as a standard and not fool yourself. But again the question arose of production and value. No one has any personal protective equipment in fact, the Parrabelum cartridge is powerful and requires frills such as an interlocked shutter. In the trench and 9/17 with the head. Plus, Walther PPK caught my eye. So we decided to do everything beautifully. A single gun for officers of the Red Army and for the MGB. The result was a reliable machine with acceptable, but not ideal characteristics, both for the army and for the police. But allowing a certain amount of money to leave in the budget. For the pros and all afflicted, they created Stechkin. In principle, until the appearance of Kevlar vests in droves, the PM calmly performed its functions.
    P.S. At the time of adoption, a completely distinct pistol has closed 2 niches! The police and second individual weapons of a combat officer are higher than the company ones.
    P.S. 2. I don’t understand all this boron cheese. Given the current realities of the war, I strongly doubt that an officer or sergeant will go to fight with a gun, without even worrying about AKMS in the back! And the gun is like that, nice insurance if you're out of luck!
  • Undecim
    Undecim 30 October 2019 14: 48 New
    +5
    What was the goal of the author? Informational? Does not look like it. It is more like a provocative one, to excite a sofa-online community and organize what is called a holivar or srach on the network.
    One of the most stable stereotypes in the field of small arms is the thesis that the minimum caliber, providing sufficient stopping action of the pistol cartridge, is a caliber of 9 mm.
    Immediately a question for the author - what area does he mean? If we keep in mind the sphere of professionals, that is, military or forensic experts, then his statement is completely meaningless, since they operate on completely different categories. Here is the sofa-internet sphere - you can find anything in it, including the thesis about nine millimeters.
    The stopping effect of hunting ammunition.
    The response to various types of damaging effects of a bullet in a person and an animal differs very strongly and in relation to a person, consideration of these issues is inappropriate.
    The minimum acceptable ammunition for hunting animals from the big African five is .375 H&H Magnum (9,53x91 mm) or its German counterpart 9,3x64 mm.
    The specified caliber is not the minimum acceptable, but the minimum acceptable by law. Such a demand is dictated by the desire of the authorities of African countries, where hunting for the "five" is allowed, to absolve themselves of responsibility for cases when modern lovers of cheap fame turn from a hunter into a prey.
    It is enough to read the story of famous African hunters like Frederick Selous or Karamojo Bell, and we learn that they became the legends of African hunts with calibers of 6.5 × 54mm Mannlicher-Schönauer and 7 × 57mm Mauser.
    It is believed that the stopping effect grows with the caliber of the bullet, that is, the .45 ACP (11,43x23 mm) ammunition has a more stopping effect than the 9x19 mm ammunition, while the 9 mm caliber is considered to be minimally sufficient for pistols in terms of stopping action .
    Who is considered? I would like to see links to relevant sources. Or is it considered the author of the article?
    So why is it still believed that 9 mm is the minimum caliber to ensure the stopping action of short-barreled weapons? Clear answers to this question could not be found
    The author himself summed up his article -.
  • Wildcat
    Wildcat 30 October 2019 16: 49 New
    +4
    An interesting article, plus, definitely!
    Well, the author poses a question that has been resolved for a hundred years, probably the next article will begin with a reference to a well-known commission, with its conclusion that "a heavy low-velocity bullet is preferable to a fast and light one."
  • Roms
    Roms 30 October 2019 18: 02 New
    +1
    And the hedgehog understands that the larger the diameter of the bullet, the greater the stopping effect of soft bullets. Which at any distance, the hit will remain in the body, and not fly out with unpredictable ricochets.
    In civilian traffic and in internal affairs, ricochets with dozens of uninjured wounded have become uninteresting since they became concerned about the safety of those around them.
  • Doliva63
    Doliva63 30 October 2019 20: 24 New
    +5
    In a nutshell - it's hard to imagine a gun for an army officer other than PM. Small, comfortable, relatively light. Special guns for special occasions and so on. Leave PM alone! When you invent a pocket blaster, then we'll talk. In the meantime, PM.
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 30 October 2019 23: 30 New
      +2
      TT, being flatter, when replacing the grip on the handle with a flatter one becomes MORE COMFORTABLE than the PM in wearing. Yes, even in the stock version, only remove the swivel, so it is not made by the mind
      The cartridge 7.62x25 could be modified by dispersing it for 600 + j and putting a new semi-live bullet, which would sharply increase the stopping effect
      And the cartridge would still be relevant as a single cartridge for all pistols and PP / PDV
      You can now make a cartridge on the basis of the 5.45 cartridge case and a slightly shortened bullet 7.62 from the cartridge 7.62x39, making the cartridge ok 27 mm and a bullet with a flattened tip
      A cartridge with an initial speed of the order of 470 m / s would be obtained with a bullet weight of about 7.6 g approximately, with a BC = 0.26 approximately (with a conventional bullet 7.62x39 0.3) that would be the most
      1. Shopping Mall
        31 October 2019 07: 48 New
        +1
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        TT, being flatter, when replacing the grip on the handle with a flatter one becomes MORE COMFORTABLE than the PM in wearing. Yes, even in the stock version, only remove the swivel, so it is not made by the mind
        The cartridge 7.62x25 could be modified by dispersing it for 600 + j and putting a new semi-live bullet, which would sharply increase the stopping effect
        And the cartridge would still be relevant as a single cartridge for all pistols and PP / PDV


        Today, most likely, an article should be published on the definition of stopping action and what parameters of ammunition affect it, including Mentioned approximately similar to the TT cartridge:
        putting a new semi-live bullet
        .

        About wearing - I liked the wide pads. If worn in a belt (now it is forbidden, they didn’t look too much before), with a released shirt, then it is almost invisible - wide "cheeks" do not allow it to fall through (the only negative - it rusts from sweat, but not much). It is so comfortable to wear that after a while it seems - lost, pat with your hand, no, on the spot, just got used to the weight and do not notice.

        So I would rather increase the store and reduce the cheeks, while maintaining the overall width. The PMSM fuse is not needed, I would add a decker to be placed on the safety platoon.
  • Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 30 October 2019 22: 15 New
    0
    In fact, PM was created as a weapon of Peace Time, PM cartridges in production are cheaper and contain less gunpowder than TT cartridges ... The trouble is that because of the weak cartridge for the army, PM for the army did not become a good weapon ...
  • John22
    John22 30 October 2019 23: 08 New
    +1
    OD cartridge depends on the mass of the bullet and its speed. The TT cartridge had excessive speed for the gun, but good for PP.
  • shinobi
    shinobi 31 October 2019 01: 22 New
    0
    This is most likely due to the ballistic characteristics of the bullet, depending on the shape and mass. A blunt bullet slows down faster in tissues and gives more energy to surrounding tissues, has less penetration than a conical bullet at the same initial speed, so it should be more massive. 9 mm is a compromise between the shape, the mass of the bullet and the initial speed, with the required stopping characteristics of the ammunition and the mass and size of the weapon. Well, the passion of all security officials for unification.
    1. John22
      John22 31 October 2019 11: 57 New
      0
      I agree, the blunt Nagant bullet pushes a neat hole in the board, and the PM bullet breaks off large chips at the exit.
    2. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 22 November 2019 09: 27 New
      0
      exit - in a semi-live LONG pool with a cut tip
  • gross kaput
    gross kaput 31 October 2019 22: 37 New
    +1
    Various sources say that the reason for choosing a cartridge of caliber 9 mm is the higher stopping effect of the latter, compared with cartridges of caliber 7,62 / 7,65 mm, but there is no information about a systematic study of such an ammunition property as “stopping action” at that time, and its application to the selection of a pistol cartridge could not be found. In all available sources it is indicated - the cartridge of the caliber 9 mm is selected including due to the greater stopping effect and the point.[/ I]
    There are no "different sources" There are TTT No. 3110 dated 26.11.45/9/7,65 in which it is required to "develop a XNUMX-mm cartridge for a pistol with a greater stopping effect than a XNUMXmm cartridge"
    TTT lists the main characteristics of the cartridge, including the muzzle energy "not less than 28 kgm. Energy at a distance of 100 m not less than 16 kgm" and there is a report by the NPSMVO June 47th "based on the results of field tests of experimental 9-mm pistol cartridges" in which it is clear said "the task is to create a 9mm pistol cartridge with a greater stopping effect than a 7,65mm Browning cartridge"
    With regards to stopping action - in which parrots have you gathered to measure it? Actually, conclusions at the test site are always made indirectly by 1 - on the energy of the target,
    2 - according to the volume of the cavity in the mastic (at that time) or gelatin (gel) block in our
    3 - according to the results of shooting at canned corpses and limbs, in fact, all this is also true for determining the lethal effect
    And now comparing all three parameters and draw a conclusion on the difference in stopping and killer action.
    Or would you like to write in the intern Murzilka that the volume of the wound channel (runway) at a meeting speed of 301m / s for a bullet of a PM cartridge is 130,6 cm3, if it hits both the upper and lower limbs and also to the head, the chest and abdomen of canned corpses of a bullet give through wounds while there are multi-fragmented fractures of tubular bones? laughing By the way, this is from the report of the Rzhevsky training ground for the study of the action of PM bullets.
    [I]In fact, there may be several reasons, for example, the high adaptability of the 9 mm cartridge due to the lack of unnecessary operations in the manufacture of a bottle mold

    In fact, this is generally irrelevant, the main reason is the change in the armament system from which the PP was thrown, as a result the TT cartridge became redundant in both power and mass, and therefore the understanding was born of creating a simpler pistol for a free bolt with a maximum power cartridge for such automation
    With regards to the tales about the criminal use of weapons from the Dyk left from the war, they did not think about this at all, and TT cartridges were produced by the 38 factory of Yuryuzan right up to 1989.
    1. Shopping Mall
      1 November 2019 14: 34 New
      0
      Quote: gross kaput
      Various sources say that the reason for choosing a cartridge of caliber 9 mm is the higher stopping effect of the latter, compared with cartridges of caliber 7,62 / 7,65 mm, but there is no information about a systematic study of such an ammunition property as “stopping action” at that time, and its application to the selection of a pistol cartridge could not be found. In all available sources it is indicated - the cartridge of the caliber 9 mm is selected including due to the greater stopping effect and the point.[/ I]
      There are no "different sources" There are TTT No. 3110 dated 26.11.45/9/7,65 in which it is required to "develop a XNUMX-mm cartridge for a pistol with a greater stopping effect than a XNUMXmm cartridge"
      TTT lists the main characteristics of the cartridge, including the muzzle energy "not less than 28 kgm. Energy at a distance of 100 m not less than 16 kgm" and there is a report by the NPSMVO June 47th "based on the results of field tests of experimental 9-mm pistol cartridges" in which it is clear said "the task is to create a 9mm pistol cartridge with a greater stopping effect than a 7,65mm Browning cartridge"


      More stopping power than the 7,65mm browning cartridge? Not 7,65 mm TT? Those. the stopping effect of TT was not in doubt? With browning, then everything is clear. With an initial energy of 200-230 J. What a stopping action ...

      Quote: gross kaput
      With regards to stopping action - in which parrots have you gathered to measure it? Actually, conclusions at the test site are always made indirectly by 1 - on the energy of the target,
      2 - according to the volume of the cavity in the mastic (at that time) or gelatin (gel) block in our
      3 - according to the results of shooting at canned corpses and limbs, in fact, all this is also true for determining the lethal effect
      And now comparing all three parameters and draw a conclusion on the difference in stopping and killer action.
      Or would you like to write in the intern Murzilka that the volume of the wound channel (runway) at a meeting speed of 301m / s for a bullet of a PM cartridge is 130,6 cm3, if it hits both the upper and lower limbs and also to the head, the chest and abdomen of canned corpses of a bullet give through wounds while there are multi-fragmented fractures of tubular bones? laughing By the way, this is from the report of the Rzhevsky training ground for the study of the action of PM bullets.


      This is described here:

      https://topwar.ru/164162-ostanovit-nelzja-ubit-gde-postavit-zapjatuju.html

      Quote: gross kaput
      [I]In fact, there may be several reasons, for example, the high adaptability of the 9 mm cartridge due to the lack of unnecessary operations in the manufacture of a bottle mold

      In fact, this is generally irrelevant, the main reason is the change in the armament system from which the PP was thrown, as a result the TT cartridge became redundant in both power and mass, and therefore the understanding was born of creating a simpler pistol for a free bolt with a maximum power cartridge for such automation


      Didn't I say that?

      Why did they replace the powerful 7,62x25 mm cartridge with the much less powerful 9x18 mm? The reasons are the same as in the case of the cartridge 9x19 mm. With all its advantages, the TT pistol is extremely inconvenient to operate, has a small ammunition for its size and weight, is unsafe to operate due to the lack of a fuse and the safe trigger release from the combat cock. The new, less powerful 9x18 mm cartridge was chosen on the basis of the need to create a compact weapon that is most convenient in everyday use.



      Quote: gross kaput
      With regards to the tales about the criminal use of weapons from the Dyk left from the war, they did not think about this at all, and TT cartridges were produced by the 38 factory of Yuryuzan right up to 1989.


      I agree, I did not write this. I will add that in addition to the huge number of such cartridges in the warehouses, they were actively dug up in battle places, right up to the beginning of the 2000's, it is possible that they still find them.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 1 November 2019 20: 20 New
        0
        Quote: AVM
        Didn't I say that?

        No, not this, the essence is precisely in changing the weapons system - i.e. during the Second World War, the weapons system of the detachment was built around a rifle and light machine gun for a screw. cartridge and a submachine gun for a pistol, which actually determines the choice of a 7,63 Mauser cartridge (7,62X25TT) as a pistol, which, by the way, can be clearly seen, including at competitions of the late 20s for a pistol and a machine gun for the Red Army - initially two pistols were required - large and small, but under one cartridge.
        but in 1944 a new weapons system of the squad began to take shape - a light machine gun, a self-loading carbine and an automatic rifle under an intermediate cartridge - i.e. Weapons of the squad moved from a two-cartridge to one-cartridge scheme, and PP dropped out of this scheme.
        Do you understand the fundamental difference? The redundancy of the TT cartridge for the short barrel was understandable long before the Second World War, but at that time it was the optimal solution, and when the PP dropped out, the need for this excessive power disappeared.
        When they cite foreign experience, explaining that they retained the 9X19 and .45ACP as pistols, they forget to mention that in these countries the PP remained in service and have survived to this day.
        By the way, we stepped on the rake of the PM cartridge in the 70s, when, on the subject of "Bouquet", we created small-sized PPs with silencers for special operations, in fact the topic ended in nothing, since it required to provide an effective range of up to 200 and the PM cartridge for accuracy did not pull even 100.
        Although the theme was continued already in the 90s, the same PP "Kedr" grew out of the Dragunov PP-71 and "cypress" from the experienced TKB-0104.
        1. Michael HORNET
          Michael HORNET 10 November 2019 08: 54 New
          +1
          TT cartridge has no redundancy. Someone beguiled, or rather, initially does not have the necessary knowledge to understand the whole picture - the TT cartridge is not 50 AE or even 10 auto
          TT cartridge after modernization (semi-live bullet and power addition) - the best cartridge for pistols and PDV in its current sense
          But not a dead end like 9PM, due to which in the Russian Federation today the zoo of pistol cartridges in the form of 9PM, 9x19, 9x21 and all three are in service. Plus there was an experiment with 5.45x18MPTs
          1. haron
            haron 19 November 2019 02: 41 New
            0
            Quote: Michael HORNET
            TT cartridge has no redundancy.

            No TT cartridge. There is a cartridge of 7,62 x 25, which was excessive for the TT pistol, because after 500 shots the accuracy and reliability critically fell due to wear of parts by impact loads during firing.
            And when using the Czech cartridge 7,62 x 25 with a power of only 15% more, the TT destroyed after 50 shots. And now compare with the reliability of the P 38 for cartridges of more different power.
            For the PCA, the cartridge power was normal.
            1. Michael HORNET
              Michael HORNET 22 November 2019 09: 32 New
              0
              this is the art of designing a gun - to use materials and technical solutions that allow you to work with high energies. The 7.62x25 cartridge is not at all so super-powerful and even in the modification for submachine guns it would be POSSIBLE to make a pistol. if you have experience and brains. Alas. there was neither one nor the other.
              Now the Czechs made a gun 7.5 FK Brno with muzzle energy - attention - 1220 J
              That is, such a 7.62x25 on steroids with power in the gun as in the M1 carbine
              1. haron
                haron 22 November 2019 22: 36 New
                0
                Quote: Michael HORNET
                this is the art of designing a gun - to use materials and technical solutions that allow you to work with high energies. The 7.62x25 cartridge is not at all so super-powerful and even in the modification for submachine guns it would be POSSIBLE to make a pistol. if you have experience and brains. Alas. there was neither one nor the other.

                Here! Here you are right. That is, "excess power" is a concept that is considered ONLY for a weapon / ammunition complex. to say this only about ammunition, it is possible only within a specific situation.
                Let me give you an example. "Sirozha, anukas calm down the tavo of the Arkharovtsa, so that he, the child of fornication, will forget this place forever and not trample our garden with his sandals. Let your metro in your homelands ... whatever devils they have gathered ... and let the metrosaxauls teach. Give Sirozha, calmly return it to mom. "
                Cyc-clap - bam - Boom.
                "!? What have you done ?! Sirozhaaaa !!!".
                "Everything as comrade warrant officer ordered! Teperich he will definitely go to his mother!"
                "Sirozha, that the sandals left his mother, thank you so much. But what did he do with these .. well, you understand .. what will he teach them, without ears, then why are the ears screwed to this thing ?!"
                "Stepanych, how many times have I said with my head that if" peacekeepers "are written on us, this does not mean that our ATGM will become weaker ..."
                "And then why force the world, these metro, they spit in our face straight! You have to explain to them that it is not cultural, to order, so to speak, and force them to leave their house alive and their mother will not ruin the house" .....
                Not mine. Translation from Hutsul.
    2. Okolotochny
      Okolotochny 4 November 2019 23: 52 New
      +1
      I’ll add a little, purely subjective - according to the stories of teachers on fire - in comparative tests, the TT gave much more misfires when shooting than the PM. But this is infa obs.
    3. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 5 November 2019 10: 50 New
      0
      On the eve of a potential total nuclear war, to change the cartridge for the pistol and to empty up huge stocks of machine gun pistols, which completely showed themselves during the World War - this is called diversion and nothing else. Well, or an extreme form of idiocy and unsuitability
  • Ingenegr
    Ingenegr 2 November 2019 13: 58 New
    +1
    Why 9x18? One of the reasons, and quite significant weight, is that the cartridge case of the 9x18PM cartridge is a "cut off" cartridge case of the 7,62x25ТТ. If you take the bottle-shaped sleeve of the TT cartridge, and sequentially "saw" it to a cylindrical one, then just 18,1 mm will be the maximum possible size of a cylindrical sleeve. Hence the overall size of the cartridge case 9x18PM, which is 18,1 mm with a tolerance of 0,27 mm downward. Thus, the actual size of the PM cartridge case is 17,83 ... 18,1 mm. The bottom and cylindrical parts of the PM and TT cartridges are absolutely identical. By the way, this moment allows you to fire in case of emergency from a weapon chambered for 9x18PM with 7,62x25TT cartridges. Naturally charging them one at a time. It is difficult to talk about the accuracy and accuracy of fire in this case, but the bullet flies out and quite briskly.
    In the USSR they knew how to count very well. And factors of an economic nature when making decisions and conducting research and development work have always been taken into account, and the developers of weapons and military equipment had to take this into account. The continuity of the design of the cartridges of ammunition - a story from this opera. The Union would not have given the cartridge a completely new design if its introduction would not have provided a minimum 20% increase in firing efficiency or a corresponding reduction in production and logistics costs.
    1. gross kaput
      gross kaput 3 November 2019 23: 14 New
      +1
      Quote: Ingenegr
      the cylindrical part of the cartridge casings PM and TT are absolutely identical.

      Are you sure that the TT bottle is cylindrical? Have you thought well?
      Well, Duc’s cartridge has a 9,95 mm diameter barrel, while the CT cartridge has a diameter of 9,6 in the same place
      The only thing that is somewhat true here is the relationship between the cartridges - the first experimental batch of cartridges 9X18 was made from blanks of TT cartridges, blanks were cut to a length of 18,01-0,27, the barrel sleeve was bored from the inside to a length of 5 mm to a wall thickness of 0,36, XNUMXmm.
      Quote: Ingenegr
      . By the way, this moment allows firing in case of emergency from a weapon chambered for 9x18PM cartridges 7,62x25TT.

      It’s good to fantasize, you can push the TT cartridge into the PM chamber - only the energy of the bullet will tend to zero - in fact the shot will be from the sleeve, while the pressure will be approximately 0 laughing the bulk of the charge will not burn out and will be ejected from the barrel after the bullet, in this case much more energy can be obtained by throwing the cartridge into the fire - at least the charge will burn out completely due to the simultaneous ignition of the charge throughout the volume with the same length acceleration of a bullet on laughing
    2. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 5 November 2019 10: 53 New
      0
      This is completely false information.
      The sleeve in the PM is made "from scratch", and there are no tolerances of plus 0.27 in the technique)))
      1. Ingenegr
        Ingenegr 5 November 2019 12: 04 New
        0
        Admission "plus" in technology is available. I recommend asking what a "hole system" and "shaft system" are. This time. Second - where was the tolerance specified in "+0,27"? And third - the PM sleeve is not made from scratch.
        1. Michael HORNET
          Michael HORNET 13 November 2019 08: 58 New
          0
          Admission to plus naturally has always been and will be, but not in the form of 0.27)))
          We switched to the weak chamber, which was so dear to the hearts of the generals
          The fact that he is not suitable for anything - but who cares?
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • Brigadier
    Brigadier 2 November 2019 19: 59 New
    0
    With the current concept of the widespread introduction of body armor, the main thing is precisely the penetration ability, and not the stopping effect of the bullet.
  • Jager
    Jager 2 November 2019 20: 17 New
    0
    A question for experts. Why are expansive munitions allowed in the US police and in civilian traffic? Instead of a "hole", a metal "rose" is formed in the criminal, cutting tissue and blood vessels with the edges, which cannot even be pulled out without damage. Or am I wrong?
    1. hhurik
      hhurik 2 November 2019 20: 44 New
      0
      Why only in the USA? From my Benelli MP1 I can only shoot bulletins of .223 bought in weapons stores, because it has been experimentally established that domestic ammunition of this particular design is flying a lot more. As a version: when stamping a shell bullet, there is some kind of mating mat in the tip of the bullet, which affects ballistics. Actually, expansive with respect to shell miracles do not have any special miracles, and there is enough speed there to solve the tasks.
      And so to PM a long time ago they adopted weapons of expansion and other armor-piercing, I saw them alive in commercial sale for hunters and athletes. The police in Russia use PPO. And yes - the problems of criminals do not stir anyone, the task of the competent authorities is to stop the committed socially dangerous act by all available forces and means.
      1. Jager
        Jager 2 November 2019 23: 57 New
        0
        Well, I don’t take hunting into account, there at least shoot from a sledgehammer. But the police? Is there an article on the VO about the effects of expansive ammunition on two-legs?
  • Droid
    Droid 5 November 2019 08: 19 New
    0
    Quote: Genry
    From the course of physics, one can speak about momentum only in the case of an elastic collision.

    Any collision.
  • kytx
    kytx 6 November 2019 23: 32 New
    0
    Well, it’s kind of weird to start about hunting and big files and then talk about military weapons
    not mastered
  • Oleg53
    Oleg53 17 November 2019 23: 19 New
    0
    It’s strange that the TT would fire rounds from both the PM and Luger only need to change the barrel, and for the PM to make an insert in the store. It’s easy and cheap. Moreover, Tokarev already offered the TT version with an enlarged magazine. They probably just wanted a small pistol, because an AK army officer needs a pistol, but the police and PM are enough. .
  • IL-64
    IL-64 29 December 2019 10: 26 New
    -1
    I read everything. I understood one thing - Michael HORNET just pinned on a semi-live pool. He asserts about it in every remark in the subject, unless he insists on his own steepness
  • mr.vispd
    mr.vispd 10 February 2020 21: 46 New
    0
    because
    1) TT was too powerful for police needs. TT - for the war, PM - for the police.
    2) TT often holes in everything and everyone, those 3-rd persons suffer, and PM in the body likes to stay, even after breaking the criminal they are no longer dangerous to others like TT.
    3) The caliber was increased in order to somehow compensate for the decrease in the bullet speed from 420 to 315, and the J from 500 to 300. Therefore, they have about the same OD with a larger TT for the Slaughter.