Army pistol and stopping action of pistol cartridges

In previously published materials, we examined the thorny path of the emergence of a new army pistol in the armed forces of the Russian Federation: Part 1, Part 2, as well as a similar process that took place at about the same time in the US armed forces: Part 1, Part 2. The next article was planned to consider what a promising army pistol could be in the context of the PDW concept. But since the topic of the army pistol is quite extensive and interesting, it was decided to preliminarily consider some aspects of the use of the army weapons close combat and the stopping action of ammunition.



The most common army pistols in the Russian armed forces are PM, MP-443 Grach and SPS Gyurza


Appointment and requirements for a modern army pistol


What is the purpose and objectives of the army pistol in the armed forces? On the website of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation) in the comments to the samples of small arms it is indicated:
- Makarov pistol (PM): "Designed to defeat manpower at short distances";
- MP-443 "Rook" pistol: "Designed to defeat the enemy at short distances, protected by anti-fragmentation bulletproof vests I and II level of protection";
- ATP pistol "Gyurza": "Designed to defeat melee manpower, protected by anti-fragmentation bulletproof vests or in unarmored vehicles."

Based on the foregoing, it can be noted that in more modern MP-443 Grach pistols and SPS Gyurza, the task of defeating the enemy in bulletproof vests is indicated, which is a consequence of the requirements laid down in the ToR R&D of 1990 of the year.

At the same time, in the American program of the new army pistol MHS (Modular Handgun System, a modular weapon system), there is no mention of the need to hit targets protected by means of individual armor protection (NIB), at least in the part that is available for study. The basic requirements of MHS are rather aimed at increasing the modularity and improving the ergonomics of the army pistol, which in turn should positively affect the speed and accuracy of firing from weapons.


Pistols viewed under the Modular Handgun System program: Beretta APX, CZ P-09, Glock 19X, Sig Sauer P320-M17, Smith & Wesson M & P9 M2.0


Due to dissatisfaction of military personnel with pistols chambered for 9x19, which appeared during the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, the pistols for .40 S&W .45 ACP, .357 SIG and FN 5,7 × 28 mm cartridges could be considered in the MHS program. But later they were abandoned. To increase the damaging properties of 9x19 mm cartridges, the possibility of using expansive and fragmenting bullets in them is considered, while there was no need to increase the armor penetration of information.

Army pistol and stopping action of pistol cartridges

Pistol cartridges, top: 9x19 mm Para, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, 5.7x28 mm, bottom: 9x19 mm Para, .357 SIG, 10 mm Auto, 5.7x28 mm


Thus, you can see a clear difference in the requirements for an army pistol (weapon-cartridge complex) in the armed forces of Russia and the USA, in Russia it is high armor penetration, in the USA it has a stopping effect.

What is the purpose of an army pistol? There is no doubt that the infantryman’s main weapon is an assault rifle / assault rifle (hereinafter - assault rifle).

Based on this, it can be assumed that a fighter needs a gun in order to get to the machine in case of loss or damage. At the same time, with high probability, the fighter will resist the enemy in the NIB, which imposes a requirement to ensure high armor penetration of the weapon-cartridge complex.

Sometimes opinions are expressed that the military doesn’t need a gun at all, it’s better to take more grenades or magazines to the machine gun, and only officers need the gun as a “status” weapon, for which the PM is suitable, they say, it is easier to carry. The presence of pistols in the Russian armed forces only among officers and fighters of special units is most likely a consequence of the fear of his loss or theft by ordinary conscripts. For military personnel contracted, this is no longer true. One way or another, but the leading armies of the world do not plan to abandon the army pistol in the near future, which means it makes sense to give this type of weapon maximum efficiency.

Why, given the increase in the number of NIBs in the world, the US does not use armor-piercing bullets in army pistols? Perhaps they are counting on the backward action of conventional cartridges against the enemy in body armor. In other words, in close combat, a soldier fires an 1-2 shot in the hull, which for some time puts the enemy out of action, after which he has time for an aimed shot at an unprotected part of the body. It is believed that the PM pistol bullet in its kinetic energy is equal to the impact of a sledgehammer weighing approximately 2 kg, for more powerful cartridges this value will be even greater.

The disadvantage here is that the NIB's protective properties are constantly improving, including in terms of decreasing back-fire, and at one fine moment, the ammunition that does not penetrate the bulletproof vest may not disable the enemy even for a short period of time (the enemy will move, shoot back ), and it will be impossible to carry out an aimed shot at an unprotected part of the body.

The Russian approach involves the use of reinforced cartridges with an armor-piercing core. In fact, when shooting at an enemy in NIB, only the core with a diameter of 5-6 mm penetrates “under the armor”, and a shirt with an outer diameter of about 9 mm is crushed on the body armor, without making a special contribution to the damaging or stopping effect. At the same time, the high return on ammunition of increased armor penetration complicates the task of hitting a target.


The nature of the deformation of the shells of bullets cartridges 7Н21 and 7Н31 when penetrating the armor


Which approach is preferable, Russian or American, and can they be combined? As for armor penetration, there are no questions. Most likely, this requirement will be increasingly relevant, including for melee weapons. But what to do with the stopping effect? Increasing the caliber and power of ammunition is ineffective both due to a decrease in ammunition and an increase in the difficulty of firing from such weapons. To understand this issue, it is necessary to understand in more detail the factors that determine the stopping effect of ammunition.

Stop action


Various techniques for assessing the stopping action of small arms ammunition are well considered by Maxim Popenker with the article “Stopping the effect of bullets”, published in the magazine “Weapons”. It also identifies the definition of stopping action given by Dale Towert: D. Towert: “The stopping power of a bullet is simply the ability of a bullet to hit a person and cause him to instantly stop any action that he performed at the time of the shot”. By “instantly” is meant no more than 1-2 seconds.

It is believed that the stopping action is the property of a bullet to ensure the complete inability of the target to attack and resistance when hit. Causing death is seen as the "lethal action of a bullet."

The article lists such approaches and theories as Taylor’s formula, Evan Marshall’s and Ed Sanow’s theory of police, Dr. Martin Fackler’s theory of optimal penetration depth, MD, Strasbourg goat tests and various types of tests weapons and ammunition by the Weapons Advisory Committee of the FBI.

The FBI commission was assembled after the “Miami Massacre” in 1986, when an FBI agent shot a criminal who had just robbed a bank. The bullet fired by the agent 9 mm hit the criminal on the side, pierced the right hand and got stuck in the right lung, fully opening. However, the culprit returned fire, killed two FBI agents, and injured four others.

All tests and studies often show rather contradictory results when the 9x17 cartridge, with an initial energy of about 300 J, shows a stopping effect comparable to that of the .357 Magnum cartridge, with an initial energy of about 800 J (according to the results of the Strasbourg tests).


Table of the best munitions for short-barreled weapons according to Marshall and Senow (left), overall combat suitability according to IWBA (top-right), average time of failure according to the results of the Strasbourg tests (bottom-right)


The article lists various damaging factors of bullets, including the depth of penetration of the bullets, the transfer of kinetic energy to the body (the bullet went through or stuck in the body), the change in the shape of the bullet when moving in the body, the appearance of a temporary cavitation cavity, and others.

At the end of the article, Maxim Popenker concludes that the conclusion of the FBI commission that the guaranteed immediate hit of the target cannot be ensured by any combination of caliber and bullets is closest to reality, it is necessary to fire to kill until the target is a threat . Therefore, all experts recommended the use of weapons with a larger capacity stores.

Key findings of the FBI Commission:
- with the exception of direct damage to the central nervous system (destruction of the brain or spinal cord), reliable and reproducible instantaneous incapacitation of a pistol (revolver) bullet is IMPOSSIBLE for any combination of bullet and caliber;
- the temporary cavitation cavity created by the pistol (revolver) bullet does not play a significant role in the formation of the damaging effect. The organs of the body are destroyed if they are directly affected by the bullet, the bullet must penetrate deep enough into the body to hit the vital organs. In order to normally pierce muscles, fat, bones, clothes and nevertheless hit the vital organs of the human body, the bullet must be able to pierce at least 25-30 centimeters of soft tissue;
- with the same penetration depth, a larger caliber bullet would be preferable. However, experts could not clearly state that the 45 ACP caliber is more preferable than, for example, the 9 mm Para. 3 of eight experts preferred the 45 caliber, four decided that with the same depth of penetration of bullets there would be no significant difference, one recommended the 9-mm Pair.


With regard to the enemy, protected by NIB, it can be added that the influence of the caliber of the bullet will be even less, since only a carbide core with a diameter of 5-6 mm will penetrate the body through the body armor.


Evaluation of the breakdown and off-line action of bullets (V.K. Zelenko, A.V. Bryzzhev, V.V. Zlobin, V.M. Korolev)


The forbidden action of a pistol (revolving) cartridge, without breaking through the NIB, may not provide the effect necessary to incapacitate a target for the time necessary for its targeted defeat in unprotected parts of the body. Significantly reduce the barrage effect helps climate depreciation support (KAP).


Climatic depreciation support



Tests of the Soft Climatic Suspension Support, manufactured by MBC

To understand the problem of stopping action, we can give an example of the conflict between the Indonesian police and the French MMA fighter Amokran Sabe that occurred in 2016. During the clash in Sabe, approximately 15 bullets from various weapons were fired, but he managed to stab one of the policemen with mortal wounds with a knife.


Shot of former MMA athlete Amokran Sabe in Indonesia on the island of Bali

It is not known for certain what the reason for the high survivability of Amokran Sabe - drug intoxication and the strength of the body of an MMA fighter, or the low rifle training of the Indonesian police, but the fact remains - half a dozen people with pistols and automatic rifles could not stop one person with a knife without loss on his part . Fire was fired by pistol and rifle cartridges, most likely the calibers 9x19 mm Para and 5,56x45.

In my opinion, this incident clearly confirms the thesis that only the defeat of the central nervous system can guarantee the cessation of an enemy attack. To a lesser extent, this applies to damage to vital organs, for example, the heart, and organs whose damage leads to heavy bleeding. Accumulation of damage from two to three or more hits significantly increases the likelihood of the enemy breaking down.

Getting into the head of an actively moving adversary is extremely difficult. It is also difficult to get into a specific organ, both due to the movement of the enemy, and because of the individual characteristics of the location of the internal organs and the unpredictable displacement of the bullet in the body after being hit (especially in the case of overcoming NIB).

From the foregoing, we can conclude that an army pistol should allow a fighter to make the maximum number of shots at a target in a minimum amount of time. At the same time, moderate recoil should be realized, contributing to the necessary accuracy of shooting, and a sufficient depth of penetration of the bullet. These requirements must be observed to defeat targets protected by NIB. To increase the likelihood of hitting the target, the number of rounds in the gun magazine should be maximum, without increasing the existing dimensions of this type of weapon.

Currently, the Russian Armed Forces use cartridges with increased armor penetration 9х21 mm 7Н29 and 9х19 7Н21 / 7Н31 (there are other types of cartridges, including with an expansive bullet). These ammunition show excellent characteristics, but is their modernization potential not exhausted, and it is necessary to move on to new form factors?


Pistol and revolving cartridges of the USSR and the Russian Federation: 7,62 mm Nagan, 7,62x25 mm TT, 9x18 PM, 5,45 mm MPTs, 7N16, 7Н25, 7Н31, 7NXNXN


We will talk about how a promising weapon-cartridge complex designed for use as a promising army pistol with characteristics that exceed those that can be obtained using existing ammunition, we will discuss in the next article.
Author:
Photos used:
structure.mil.ru, personaldefenseworld.com, www.kalashnikov.ru, shooting-ua.com, oruzheika.blogspot.com, topwar.ru
Articles from this series:
Army pistol in Russia. Part of 1
Army pistol in Russia. Part of 2
Army gun in the USA. Part of 1
Army gun in the USA. Part of 2
About ammunition, army pistols and submachine guns in the RF Armed Forces
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  1. u4iy 9 October 2019 18: 14 New
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    Any weapon is a way to transfer energy! ....)
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 October 2019 19: 26 New
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      There is a desire to dwell on another aspect of the applicable firearm.
      To increase the damaging properties of 9x19 mm cartridges, the possibility of using expansive and fragmenting bullets in them is considered

      Phi, how humane it is! Moreover, as far as I remember, it is forbidden by a number of conventions, including the Hague.
      . The Russian approach involves the use of reinforced cartridges with an armor-piercing core. In fact, when shooting at an enemy in NIB, only a core with a diameter of 5-6 mm penetrates “under the armor”, and a shirt with an outer diameter of about 9 mm is crushed on the body armor, without making a special contribution to the damaging or stopping effect. At the same time, the high return on ammunition of increased armor penetration complicates the task of hitting a target.

      As far as I know, the core diameter of the standard PM and PPM cartridge does not exceed 3 mm! So, a 5 gram shirt is also not a “roll with butter”. The 3rd grade of protection is deformed only with a bang. Confidence from Gyurza does not even give IS class 5. Experts know that a bullet can fly anywhere (for example, in the armpit), and the “six” is 10 kg without a helmet! You are welcome to stay for at least two hours, and to fight ....... soldier
      Findings. Even in the PM pool, you can make a 1,5mm drill with a 1mm recess, which, when a target is hit, will increase the stopping effect by one and a half times! You can wrap clusters of tungsten rods from 3 to 7 in the cartridge or wrap one stopping metal core! Need for invention is cunning, is it only needed today?
      In the wild 90s, to fix the “material” in the shooting range, a class 3 bronik (cuirass) was shot with water cameras placed inside! Spectacle spectacular and moralizing! It discouraged the desire to pull out titanium plates in order to facilitate "life" once and for all !!!
      Regards, Kote!
      1. ssergey1978 9 October 2019 19: 46 New
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        Half shell allowed in the hunt. weapons, police and civilian weapons. It is forbidden in military weapons as not humane.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 October 2019 19: 51 New
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          I mean the same!
          Regards, Kote!
        2. Izotovp 10 October 2019 10: 46 New
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          That's why often not military operations, but a counter-terrorist operation are conducted.)
      2. YOUR 10 October 2019 03: 24 New
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        PM is gradually being replaced in the troops by PM so you forget about it. In 2003, a resolution was adopted on the adoption of the PY pistol and the gradual replacement of the PM with it. Since 2011, the gun goes to the troops en masse. But for some reason it seems to me that they will replace him with the same. Too many complaints.
        And at the expense of the PM bullet, standard, i.e. the most common cartridge 57H181C has a fungus-shaped core, 57H181 - a lead core. The one about which you wrote with a 3 mm core is the armor-piercing 7N15 for the entire service, I have never shot, never seen.
        In principle, the same can be said about the Russian cartridge 9 * 19, I don’t know whether or not it is, but our cartridge seems to be more powerful compared to Western ones. Because of this, PY doesn’t work very well with American and Western cartridges; there is not enough energy. But this is not from personal experience, but from Internet and television materials. By the time PY arrived in the army, I was not there already.
      3. CTABEP 11 October 2019 18: 19 New
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        Does the bronik that holds the 7.62x39 tus does not give a guarantee from the pistol? Hello, come. All of these requirements for hitting targets in the BZ are more likely for the police than for the army, or memories of the times 6b1. Because it will not break through any standard plate, and if it gets into a soft bag, it is better to have more kinetic energy than a solid core (although its presence is not superfluous, let it be better than not, but without prejudice to the rate of fire and store the same gun).
        PS By the way, with a normal KAP and a good stove - arrival 7.62x54 is a slight bruise, to say nothing of any army pistol, they will not shoot from a desert eagle.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka 11 October 2019 19: 11 New
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          For neophytes!
          IB class 1 - sticks, stones and knives.
          2 - hunting smoothbore weapons.
          3 - 9mm PM bullet (without core).
          4 - 7,62x39.
          5 - 7.62mm mosquito cartridge.
          6 - mine protection.
          Well, the last. Arrival in the sternum of the “five” armor from a 7,62x54 rifle bullet - this is 10 out of 10 you are on the ass and you have extensive hematomas, 5 out of 10 fractures of the ribs or collarbone, 3 out of 10 concussion and damage to internal organs!
          I know what I am writing. "Treshka" holds PPO bullets, but not similar to the core!
          hi
          1. CTABEP 11 October 2019 19: 57 New
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            You do not know what you write. These are the stories of 10 years ago. A good CAP eliminates all this. Armor classes haven't been like that for a long time. About "cartridge mosinki" and "7.62x39" without specifying the type of bullet write only people far from the topic, mainly based on myths. Which, I do not argue, even in the army have taken very deep roots.
  2. Keyser soze 9 October 2019 18: 15 New
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    Pfff, the article is excellent, but it’s kind of nasty to watch the shooting of this Frenchman. I understand that the criminal and drug addict, but the non-police officers shot half an hour until they shot.
    1. Astra wild 9 October 2019 20: 41 New
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      Colleague, you were slightly mistaken: Indonesia and France are two completely different countries. Both those and others will be offended by you :. Indonesians believe that Europeans are worse than them, and the French think about Indonesians about the same
      1. Daddy pig 20 December 2019 06: 50 New
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        what exactly was the “colleague” wrong?
        1. Astra wild 20 December 2019 14: 13 New
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          1) geographically, Indonesia and France are located on different continents.
          2) as you know, Indonesia is the former colony of the Netherlands (?), And in the former colonies somehow they don’t really like the Europeans, probably guess why.
          1. Daddy pig 20 December 2019 16: 02 New
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            1) did he say something about the fact that Indonesia and France are nearby?
            - the action takes place in Indonesia, they shot the Frenchman, where does the "geographical location of these countries" mean?
            2) and where does the love or dislike for Europeans?
            - do you think they specially shot him for half an hour because they "do not like Europeans"?

            I’m not just picking on, just recently on this site, and sometimes I am surprised at the comments
            here is yours for example, what you wanted to tell them is completely incomprehensible ...
  3. polpot 9 October 2019 18: 29 New
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    Thank you interesting article.
  4. ssergey1978 9 October 2019 18: 37 New
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    This article is a collection of common truths, nothing new. On the question of whether OD is important for a pistol or a breakdown action, OD is unequivocally at least because the OD on a pistol cartridge is easier to achieve.
    1. Lopatov 9 October 2019 18: 53 New
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      Quote: ssergey1978
      OD definitely if only because the OD on the pistol cartridge is easier to achieve.

      In fact, the author claims the opposite. That the necessary OD on a pistol cartridge is impossible to achieve. If you follow the conclusions of the FBI commission.
      1. ssergey1978 9 October 2019 18: 59 New
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        The author pulled on facts from various sources. OD can be achieved in various ways, but the simplest is to increase the caliber or decrease the weight of the bullet, which is easiest to do within the framework of the COP. Punching requires rifle speed, and this is difficult to achieve at the COP (impossible)
        1. Lopatov 9 October 2019 20: 51 New
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          Quote: ssergey1978
          this is an increase in caliber

      2. CTABEP 11 October 2019 18: 21 New
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        Duc emnip due to stopping action. 45 Asr loved, and the conclusions were after. 38. So only a 100-gauge expansive bullet in the belly without BZ will give a 12% guarantee :)
      3. 3danimal 12 October 2019 11: 14 New
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        As a result, the FBI switched to the cartridge .40S & W. Satisfied, apparently.
        Although it’s more difficult to shoot accurately than 9mm para (from my own experience).
        1. Michael HORNET 12 October 2019 19: 28 New
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          The FBI has already abandoned 40СВ several years ago
          Now everywhere 9x19 standard
          It is from these same considerations that the number of rounds in a magazine is important
          If the Soviet Union didn’t do anything stupid with the adoption of the 9x18 cartridge, we would have an excellent modern cartridge 7,62x25, which would also have grown in energy and acquired a semi-live bullet with a high stopping effect
          1. Oleg (Kharkov) 12 October 2019 23: 31 New
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            Quote: Michael HORNET
            we would have a great modern cartridge 7,62x25

            You're right. And for the police, that the ricochet is afraid of supposedly excessive power - a bullet with controlled ballistics. It consists of the bow, shell and shot filler. It is easier than in the hungry post-war years to establish the production of PM and ammunition. Plus it's 1951. The height of the Korean War, which laid the economic burden on the USSR ... Was it possible to cut the budget then?

            1. 3danimal 14 October 2019 15: 49 New
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              It was just the installation of the gun "instead of oil", at first they spent on the military.
              How do you imagine the creation of such a cartridge in the USSR in the early 50's ?? Yes, even in caliber 7,62 ??
              The best available (in my opinion) is .357 Sig. The only downside is 40% more expensive .50
              1. Oleg (Kharkov) 14 October 2019 16: 13 New
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                Quote: 3danimal
                It was just the installation of the gun "instead of oil", at first they spent on the military.

                Let me disagree. When did you take PM? 1951
                Cold war Mig-17 just started to be used. Mig-15 (bis) too.
                By March 1, 1951, the USSR had only 15 atomic bombs of the RDS-1 type.
                The United States 400 bombs arrived in the arsenal by January 1, 1951. FOUR.
                On October 8, 1951, the first Soviet aviation atomic bomb (RDS-3 with a nuclear charge of 501-M) was FIRST tested by dropping it from an airplane (Tu-4). For the first time - this means it's unclear how the rest will be. And there are only 15. And the United States has 400.
                Tu-16 is not there yet. They do it. The first flight only in a year.
                Tu - 4 will fly only 6200 with a ridiculous practical ceiling of 11200.
                Offhand, the Lockheed F-94 Starfire fighter-interceptor has a ceiling of 15m.
                The strategic Boeing B-47 Stratojet and Boeing B-52 Stratofortress are achievable only for the raw Mig-15 bis and Mig-17, which appeared in the USSR half a year or a year ago ...
                How would there be money to spend, right? In warehouses heaps of TT and Nagans.
                Police - Nagant or TT in the teeth, who are outraged - fell down the forest.
                But this is my opinion. It is clear that the design and manufacture of PM is not so expensive, but when every penny counts ... I don’t know ...
                1. 3danimal 14 October 2019 17: 32 New
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                  Look here: the USA tested and (used) the atomic bomb in 1945. They had a more developed industry before the Second World War and much more developed after (40% of all industrial production of the world). Nothing to talk about. At a higher saturation with machinery and equipment.
                  And again, the modern (!) Shotgun bullet shown in the photo in a 9+ mm caliber was not possible to create and mass produce in the Union of the early 50's, especially in a caliber of 7,62.
                  1. Oleg (Kharkov) 14 October 2019 17: 57 New
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                    Quote: 3danimal
                    And again, the modern (!) Bullet with shot filling indicated in the photo, in caliber 9+ mm, was not possible to create

                    ok god with that bullet! I about that in 1951 had money where to spend. The war was over with the "three-ruler" - no one objected ...
                    Let’s make an analogy: you have an old but quite working “five”. You are on credit. With work not very good. The roof is leaking. The neighbor is angrily looking in your direction ... will you buy the same used eight? hardly ... not at a time when there are more priority things. TT shot. Nagan is even better (for the police then).
                    The bullet could be ignored altogether. Who thought about that rebound? Who needed it? At the Totsky exercises, people were driven to the epicenter of an atomic explosion! and here it means they’ve taken care not to crush the civilians in a police shoot-out ... they would have issued instructions for the police to “shoot carefully, because they will ricochet” and that would have ended. probably there were some kind of economic and political motives.
                    1. 3danimal 15 October 2019 05: 40 New
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                      In the "state for people" they didn’t really think about specific people, I agree)
                      I am sure that the transition to PM was, first and foremost, an order from the army. Nagan is a junk, TT had a number of design flaws (Borz PP in Chechnya also shot, not always, really). Prior to Browning, HP, Walter or Colt 1911 were not reliable in reliability. And PM was quite reliable. And the cartridge allowed to use it with a silencer without problems, which is important for the same army intelligence.
                    2. 3danimal 15 October 2019 05: 42 New
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                      "Neighbors" did not state plans for the creation of a world SSR and the universal victory of their ideology.
          2. 3danimal 13 October 2019 16: 28 New
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            IMHO, it was necessary to take the same 9x19 and experiment on its basis. 7,62x25 had problems with a stopping effect.
            In place of "their" military, I would choose .357 SIG. Powerful, compact.
      4. haron 13 October 2019 01: 37 New
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        Quote: Spade
        In fact, the author claims the opposite. That the necessary OD on a pistol cartridge is impossible to achieve.

        Really. It is impossible to invest at least 1000 - 1300 joules in one pistol shot. At the same time, remaining in the dimensions, characteristics, comfort, and most importantly the price, of any modern army pistols.
        I mean, the concept of "stopping action" is a little bluff, or rather, the pursuit of a ghostly ideal. The concept was introduced into use when disputes began around the Duma. Cartridge manufacturers and sellers introduced as one of the advertised quality criteria.
        If you approach without templates, then the concept of ML applies to any weapon, including tank guns and air-to-air missiles. However, the tank must shoot at non-living, specifically known objects, with accurately calculated parameters. For example, for the T-90 there are no more than three dozen tanks of rivals, about which almost everything is known. Accordingly, creating a gun / shot complex with 80% OD for any target is not so problematic ..... under ideal conditions of use. For you can calculate 90% of interactions.
        But man is not a tank.
        This means that the problem of the “necessary OD” of the gun depends on the design and properties of the bullet / cartridge by 30 percent, no more.
        Likely to predict OD.
        1. We need to look at a specific gun-cartridge complex.
        2. The ability of the shooter means no less than the design of the cartridge.
        3. The quality of the target means as much as the properties of the complex and the quality of the shooter combined.
        4. Application conditions (environment), also takes a couple of percent of the OD from the cartridge.

        A total of at least 4 points that make the FBI table even less reliable.

        I think that it’s a little incorrect to talk about the impossibility of creating a “sufficient ML” for the pistol. If a pistol and a cartridge can kill a person, or did they kill in life, then this is already "enough."
        1. 3danimal 14 October 2019 17: 36 New
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          IMHO, similar (1000J) energy can be achieved in .40 caliber (10mm), making a more powerful analogue .357 sig. But the recoil will be strong, making it difficult to aim fire. (I already wrote that with the same mass of pistols, .40S & W is more difficult to shoot than 9x19).
  5. Corn 9 October 2019 18: 40 New
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    Due to dissatisfaction of servicemen with pistols chambered for 9x19, which appeared during the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan

    It’s amazing. I’ve never met any mention of at least one combat use of a pistol for its intended purpose, so it’s not entirely clear what exactly “dissatisfaction” is.
  6. Strashila 9 October 2019 18: 51 New
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    And again everything goes in a circle, the old PM is compared, forgetting about the PMM heir. The table shows that the PM is enough to incapacitate the enemy at a distance of 25 m. But the mass of the PM is 0,81 kg, the barrel length is 93,5 mm, the SPS weight is 1.1 kg, the barrel length is 120 mm. In fact, ATP should not be compared with PM or PMM, but with APS, if we want to be objective.
    1. ssergey1978 9 October 2019 19: 01 New
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      It will not be objective because the difference in kin. energy PM and APS total 50 J.
  7. Stas1973 9 October 2019 19: 26 New
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    I wanted to start the comment with the words "why all these letters" or "the author does not understand," but decided - not worth it, to no avail. When the image of a pistol is cultivated for many years in the army of officers, as a means to open beer, well, such an attitude will be towards him, even if you don’t attach any ergonomics and ammunition. For any personal weapon, you need to instill love, respect and the ability to use it, because it is a means of defeating the enemy. If the party’s line - die a soldier, but don’t let the enemy go - he’s buried with what weapons the Bretz is armed, zero sense, from the weapon. If the party’s line - let the enemy die, at a good price - then you need to be able to use, appreciate and love, then what does the soldier use. The meaning of the speech is that on the battlefield and in any situation, besides it, fire density, store capacity, wearable bq are important and only after that individual training, and not a damaging or stopping pivotal effect. I was able to crush with fire in the first minutes - well done, there is a chance. I couldn’t - learn the materiel and love that the Fatherland handed you in your hands, increase individual training for using non-standard weapons. For policemen and other non-army men, the question is completely different in terms of the Constitutional Court. Something like this.
    In addition, from all that I shot - the best is 5-7, although I can perfectly manage it with PM.
  8. vladcub 9 October 2019 19: 46 New
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    We are following the path of increasing the power of the cartridge 9x21, and in the west with the "classic" calibers: 9x19, Luger, 40sw, 45 AAS, different bullets are following the path of acceleration: THV, or AE. Perhaps they are not so wrong?
    Actually, we also have bullets with a displaced core, the so-called expansive bullet
    1. ssergey1978 9 October 2019 19: 53 New
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      If you want to penetrate solid objects, then you need to increase the speed, if loose power.
  9. Avior 9 October 2019 20: 17 New
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    the possibility of using expansive and fragmenting bullets in them is considered

    It seems that the author was pulling information from various sources, and combined it, not quite thinking through it.
    For army use, such bullets are prohibited by the annex to the Hague Convention, this is a war crime.
    Regarding the armor-piercing properties of the pistol cartridge.
    If the army body armor is designed for the use of an automatic cartridge, then the pistol bullet has few chances.
    Therefore, the use of a gun instead of a machine gun raises serious doubts. Why discuss the use of a pistol against a class 2 bulletproof vest if the opponent has class 4?
    The use of a pistol makes sense against non-military when performing army police functions. But in this case, armor-piercing properties are not important. Perhaps the Americans are considering it. In order to enter the battle with a pistol against an enemy armed with a machine gun and expect to win, there must be very specific conditions.
    1. Shopping Mall 9 October 2019 22: 10 New
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      Quote: Avior
      the possibility of using expansive and fragmenting bullets in them is considered

      It seems that the author was pulling information from various sources, and combined it, not quite thinking through it.
      For army use, such bullets are prohibited by the annex to the Hague Convention, this is a war crime.


      In addition, the possibility of using expansive and fragmenting bullets in a new army pistol was considered. The United States did not sign the Hague Convention 1899 of the year prohibiting their use in hostilities, although they have so far complied with it. It is believed that the use of expansive and fragmenting bullets in the 9x19 cartridge will increase its stopping and damaging effect without switching to another caliber.
      1. Avior 9 October 2019 22: 49 New
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        The ban was duplicated and in the Hague Convention of 1907, the United States signed it.
        Please note that expansive bullets are forbidden precisely in hostilities by the warring parties, but there is no prohibition on police officers, hunters, or self-defense on them. That is, what you wrote applies to other applications - there it will be legal.
  10. MORDVIN13rus 9 October 2019 20: 18 New
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    I read here, read all these articles, and still did not understand why I needed an army (combined arms) pistol. In the RF Armed Forces, the main weapon is an automatic weapon. even the officers in the BD zone always keep Kalash on hand, and pm at least for that matter. And what many do not like pm, I still do not understand. The machine is excellent, it completely copes with its tasks, but there is no need to demand more from it.
  11. Glory1974 9 October 2019 21: 15 New
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    The gun in the army is definitely needed. Yes, he is not the main weapon, but situations can often arise where a gun can save a life. So this chance must be used.
    As a rule, these are situations when the main weapon has run out of ammunition (cases of fighting in Chechnya and the use of pistols in close combat in a wooded area), unexpected attacks in the city and attempts to capture a prisoner, while the main task is to somehow hit the enemy, better than a few and for this it is desirable to have a larger store capacity.
    There were clashes with the militants under the dope, but AK was often powerless against them. Increased armor penetration is needed when the pistol is the main weapon and is usually used by anti-terror forces.
    1. Avior 9 October 2019 22: 12 New
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      As a rule, these are situations when the main weapon has run out of ammunition

      And why, instead of a pistol, take no more ammunition for the main weapon?
      1. MORDVIN13rus 9 October 2019 23: 32 New
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        As they say in the army, there are not many rounds of ammunition, and if it does, it was necessary to take more.
        1. Glory1974 10 October 2019 08: 30 New
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          there aren’t many rounds of ammunition, and if it does, it was necessary to take more.

          Ammo can be very few, and few but no longer carry lol
      2. Glory1974 10 October 2019 08: 28 New
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        And why, instead of a pistol, take no more ammunition for the main weapon?

        The point is that the gun complements the main weapon. Otherwise, you can not take the knife with you: why cut the sausage, took it and shoot it with a burst of machine gun. laughing
        1. Avior 10 October 2019 09: 19 New
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          You yourself wrote its main function - if the cartridges end to the main weapon.
          A pistol with cartridges for him by weight is two or three additional stores for the AK-74m.
          Why introduce ersatz, if you can take cartridges for the main weapon?
          Of course, there are situations when a gun can be used if the enemy has machine guns.
          In close development, in dense forest or bushes, when visibility is limited to several meters.
          But already in a modern, rather than a medieval city, there is much more space, and you won’t fight against a machine gun with a pistol there. And the situations when instead of a pistol fighters will be less than two or three spare stores, much more than those when you need a gun.
          Therefore, the question arises, why not just do this?
          1. Glory1974 10 October 2019 16: 29 New
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            Of the three options, when you need a gun, you focus only on when the cartridges run out. And the rest of the 2 options?
            Well, according to the first, there are clarifications: The tape in the machine gun ran out, the opponent threw 20 meters of space with a throw and burst into the position, you do not have time to insert the tape. What to do? Answer: grab a gun, shoot the enemy and refuel the tape.
            And if you’re wounded in the arm and can’t use the machine? Take the gun and shoot.
            You are in the UAZ in the back seat, they ran up to you from both sides simultaneously. You shoot from one machine in one direction, you don’t have time to turn around at 180 degrees, grab the gun and bring down the action movie from the other side. These are examples from life. Yes, there are not many situations like this, but they exist, and the gun really saved the owner’s life. Therefore, in the infantry, every soldier in a large-scale war may not need a gun, but in such wars as in Afghanistan and Chechnya, it is very necessary.
            1. MORDVIN13rus 10 October 2019 19: 32 New
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              You contradict yourself. If the enemy burst into the trench, then the first thing he will do is to fire to suppress and throw grenades at all. Moreover, the enemy will clearly be out of shape 2 dressed. So what are the chances of a pistol against an opponent chained in class 3+ or higher armor firing to suppress? As for the car, you are in the back seat, and who is sitting in the front one, and that he does not have weapons and his own sector of fire? A pistol is a purely police weapon; as a combined arms weapon it is useless. As for the specials, then there is a separate topic.
              1. Glory1974 10 October 2019 21: 11 New
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                If the enemy burst into the trench, then the first thing he will do is to fire to suppress and throw grenades at all.

                Read carefully. I’m not writing about a large-scale war, but about specific ones, like in Afghanistan and Chechnya. This time.
                Second: at a distance of 20 meters, no one shoots to suppress, only to kill, and does not throw grenades at him, because he will need to lie down after that.
                Thirdly, the militants don’t wear armor, and this is a plus for us, and a minus for them. Therefore, in such situations that were real, our fighter is often wounded.
                Fourth, with regard to cars. UAZs do not go to combat. if you go, then to "civilian" affairs, to the market, to the store, or where else. Yes, this is the truth of life. It is problematic to sit in the trenches for six months and only look through the scope. From the first seat, a friend loads lamb into the trunk, so he cannot support him.
                A pistol is a purely police weapon; as a combined-arms weapon, it is useless.

                I do not call for a combined arms battle with a pistol. Even with militants, he cannot shoot.
                But as a backup weapon should be. And the fighting experience confirms this. If the officers didn’t have pistols, the above examples would end differently.
                1. MORDVIN13rus 10 October 2019 22: 35 New
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                  And that in Afghanistan or Chechnya, everyone ran with motley ??? My father passed Afghanistan from A to Z, in the position of a company’s castle. So he said that coming from across the river, young commanders threw their regular commander into a distant box, and remembered them only during some checks, and by hook or by crook they got themselves the wrong Kalash. In Chechnya it was the same thing, the foreman in the army army was telling. And yes, for information, the Czechs that in the first and second, did not disdain wearing armor. So the question is, what is the use of pestol, even in conditions of low-intensity conflict? In addition, reloading the machine with one hand is much easier than a gun.
                  1. Glory1974 11 October 2019 12: 59 New
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                    In Chechnya it was the same thing, the foreman in the army was telling
                    wassat
                    I was there and saw it myself. He brought you examples from real life. As they say not in horse feed.
                    What does it have to do with pistols? I’m considering specific situations where a gun is needed, and try to prove to me that in such situations it would be useless.
                    And what does the armor have to do with it? If the enemy is in armor and do not need to shoot at him? Of course, what’s the conversation about?
            2. Avior 10 October 2019 20: 14 New
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              As for the machine gunner, one can agree with a stretch, he also needs a personal weapon, but with a wound in the arm there is already a stretch, as in my opinion.
              Of course, there may be situations when a gun is needed, especially if the war is specific, but there are much more situations when 2-3 stores are more useful.
              Using a pistol against a machine gunner is a stretch in itself. It will burst into the trench and from the belly fan along the length of the trench;
              With the fact that for police operations may be needed, I agree.
              But hardly then armor penetration is needed
              1. Glory1974 10 October 2019 21: 18 New
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                but there are much more situations when the 2-3 store is more useful in my opinion.

                Nobody forces you to carry a gun instead of a magazine to AK. But in the infantry of a fighter of the 4 store, the rest of the cartridges are in holders and packs, in special units of the 8-10, the rest is also in holders and packs. There are no more places for unloading stores. Therefore, you can throw as much as you can carry into a backpack, and put a gun in the unloading place in a regular place. But when the cartridges end in stores, take out packs and outfit. but at this moment it’s calmer with a weapon at least somehow.
                With the fact that for police operations may be needed, I agree.
                But hardly then armor penetration is needed

                But in our country all operations are still counter-partisan. And I write that the number of cartridges in the clip is more important than the OD.
                Using a pistol against a machine gunner is a stretch in itself. It will burst into the trench and from the belly fan along the length of the trench;

                If you're in cover, shoot a pistol, what's stopping you? PY beats on 50 meters. learn to shoot and get on 50 m. in the eye firing from a belly fan.
                but with a wound in the arm is already a stretch, as in my opinion.

                ? gun and designed with one hand to shoot.
                1. Avior 10 October 2019 21: 32 New
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                  Intended.
                  But how will you fight in the same chain with machine gunners from your platoon against the enemy with machine guns? As a target? The wounded place at the doctors. Well, or so it is necessary to continue to fight - with one hand with a gun on the stop it will not be aimly and even better than a gun.
                  About the fact that the use of a 50 m pistol requires serious preparation, I don’t even say.
                  But instead of a gun, he took a couple of shops, and all the problems disappeared. Unloading is, as you know, not a problem, they will do what is needed for the task.
                  Of course, I am writing about army use.
                  For police tasks, a gun may well come in handy, as I have written more than once.
                  And all the discussion is about army use.
                  1. Glory1974 11 October 2019 13: 04 New
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                    how will you fight in the same chain with machine gunners from your platoon against the enemy with machine guns? As a target? The wounded place at the doctors.

                    What are the attacks of chains and waves? Are you writing about the great Russian national? Read carefully where the gun is needed. Do not ascribe to me what I did not say.
                    instead of a pistol, I took a couple of stores, and all the problems disappeared.

                    take at least two zinc cartridges, these are 2160 pieces, drag them if you need to. The conversation is not about replacement, but about addition.
                    Of course, I am writing about army use.
                    For police tasks, a gun may well come in handy, as I have written more than once.
                    And all the discussion is about army use.

                    Yes, and I'm about the same. When did army units attack in chains, behind tanks? Have you read my comments at all?
                    1. Avior 11 October 2019 14: 20 New
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                      Read. Behind the tank, not the tank, the use of the army involves a battle as part of a unit. And a chain, a horseshoe or a scatter, there’s no difference.
                      The fact that you are not a lone hero ....
                      And the battle will not be alone, but with comrades armed with machine guns, like the enemy. And in a battle between two units with machine guns, you and your gun will be more like a target, because the battle will not be fought at 20-30 meters in the vast majority of cases.
                      Regarding the supplement, you share where the replacement is, where the addition is.
                      Write about the add-on, and insert the replacements as examples.
                      And instead of replacing it is easier to grab two extra horns.
                      About zinc is your invention, I do not need to ascribe it.
                      And as for the fact that the army actually has police functions, and not army functions, there is no war now. But the army is trained precisely for war, and not ersatz to replace the police, although this also happens
    2. MORDVIN13rus 9 October 2019 23: 34 New
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      If AK is powerless against bumps, then where am I baking then they are competing with it and no matter what cartridge. If you do not fill up the enemy with one cartridge, then 7 is not enough.
      1. Glory1974 10 October 2019 16: 32 New
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        If you did not fill up the enemy with one cartridge, then 7 is not enough.

        Therefore, they make the store bigger. Once hit, it did not help, still shoot, do not spare the cartridges. If you have 16-18 pieces of them, at least let them all out but save your life.
        but to hope that one cartridge will save you, but powerful, it’s not worth it.
        1. MORDVIN13rus 10 October 2019 19: 27 New
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          If you hit and did not help, then this already means that you are a corpse. In the RF Armed Forces, a priori a gun is not needed as an additional weapon.
          1. Glory1974 10 October 2019 21: 22 New
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            If you hit and did not help, then this already means that you are a corpse.

            And if your enemy didn’t hit, then who is the corpse?
            I will answer: the corpse is the one who shoots worse. Therefore, do not be afraid in battle, maybe your enemy shoots worse than you, act as taught and do not be afraid to die.
      2. Michael HORNET 12 October 2019 19: 37 New
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        Stupid logic. And practice is not confirmed.
        They shoot at the target before it falls and fails, and it may be necessary 1 and 2 and 4 and 10 and even 20
        But usually 2 immediately with a high probability of failure, therefore, learn to shoot deuces
  12. stroybat ZABVO 9 October 2019 21: 35 New
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    Hi at 7 from Argentina.
    The Yankees need a gun to shoot at rebels, partisans and other civilians who have taken weapons to fight ... Therefore, the Yankees do not consider "armor-piercing", they are bastards in a word.
    I, here in Argentina, began to strain the news about bandits dressed in armor ... because I wear a revolver, sharpened for "stopping" action .... will I have to charge the carousel with one "expansive" another "armor-piercing"?
    Yeah! Here are just the "five" passers-by on departure then where to hide? Joke. Black humor.
  13. Bormanxnumx 9 October 2019 22: 09 New
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    There is an interesting channel on YouTube dedicated to the cases of the use of firearms by American police officers bullets. Therefore, with fire contact at close range, bad guys usually rake 5-1 bullets. The most radical OD seen on the channel is three consecutive shots fired at the attacker’s chest from a 8-caliber self-loading rifle from a distance of three meters - it went down in place.
    1. Avior 9 October 2019 22: 52 New
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      There you need to figure it out.
      The stopping effect is based on pain shock, and when adrenaline is released into the bloodstream or under the influence of drugs, pain shock may not even occur with significant wounds.
      It happens that a wounded man realizes that he is wounded only when he sees blood.
      1. Mr_Evil 10 October 2019 00: 49 New
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        “Stopping action" is a term that describes the striking ability of a weapon / cartridge. Higher damaging (lethal) effect of ammunition, higher "stopping effect". The term "Stopping power weapon" (formerly lethal power weapon, in turn, previously killing power) itself originated a long time ago in the United States after the scandal unleashed by "all sorts of human rights defenders." The bottom line is that during the next “rearmament” of the US police, the media got an “advertisement” stating that the police received more effective weapons with increased lethal effect, which greatly outraged the various “desks”. They inflated the hype that the goal of the police now is not to protect citizens and to detain criminals, but to kill and in which case the suppression of "freedoms" in a harsh form ...

        Thus, the term "Stopping action" was born, but the meaning remains the same, the more damage will be done the higher the probability of stopping the enemy.

        More details about what is guaranteed to deprive the enemy of combat readiness can be found in the works of Thompson-LaGuard. They did a great job in this direction at the beginning of the 20th century, later in the 60-70s similar experiments were conducted by the FBI and they fully confirmed the accuracy of the results of tests conducted by Thompson ...
    2. swnvaleria 10 October 2019 13: 00 New
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      Yes, a crusher with steel buckshot is much more effective than any baking, but you can’t drag it in a holster and quickly pull it out.
    3. Michael HORNET 12 October 2019 19: 42 New
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      That's right. Real videos with gunshots show that after 1 bullet the action continues and the effect comes only from 2-3-4
      And even all 10. Therefore, a capacious store is desirable.
      Well, and yet the 357 and 9x19 bullets differ in action, the 357 incapacitates much more confidently
  14. Chaldon48 10 October 2019 02: 03 New
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    The shooter must often exercise and know the finer features of his weapon.
  15. cat Rusich 10 October 2019 03: 03 New
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    Pro stopping power angry "cartridge. In 1899-1901, the United States am fought in the Philippines. A 9mm caliber cartridge was not enough to stop the Filipinos in battle. I had to use .45 caliber (11,43mm) good . About the number of ammunition: "five (rounds) weren’t enough - twenty five (rounds) aren’t enough" - American saying yes
    1. Bormanxnumx 10 October 2019 07: 17 New
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      Quote: cat Rusich
      About the number of ammunition: "five (rounds) weren’t enough - twenty five (rounds) aren’t enough" - American saying

      The Americans said and decided that the store was 13-15pcs. 9Para. better than 8pcs. 45ASP lol
      PS Regarding the "unkillable" Filipinos and the shortcomings of the then 9mm revolving cartridge - European countries also fought colonial wars with "violent" peoples, and there were no special complaints about pistol cartridges request
      1. cat Rusich 11 October 2019 02: 27 New
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        Revolver Webley 1887-1963 Britain, caliber .455 Webley (11,56mm). Recall the "bullet doom-doom." The order for "explosive" bullets came after the Chitral campaign (1895). It seemed to English "warriors" that .303 British "does not kill" ,, savages ,,. My opinion: there are no complaints about pistol cartridges when they (pistol cartridges) are not used in war. You can recall the replacement of 7,62x25 TT with 9x18 Makarov - the caliber "for some reason" was increased ... Colt 1911 chambered for .45ACP was withdrawn from service in 1985 ...
      2. Michael HORNET 12 October 2019 19: 50 New
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        So then the 9 mm revolver was weak. Not a couple of the current 9x19. Of course, against its background, 45 automatic transmissions, even with the then hitch, were much more effective
        But modern 9x19 cartridges have a sufficient pumping of joules, above which problems with hits and controllability of personnel already begin. So the modern 9x19 is the optimum pistol cartridge in the old-school form factor
        In fact, 7.62 with a semi-live bullet in the gun would be no less, and even perhaps more effective, eh, early and stupidly written off 7.62x25TT
        Semi-living is a long, almost automatic bullet with a cut vertex, it works both as armor-piercing and as a stop (due to somersault, like all automatic bullets), combining both
  16. erased 10 October 2019 11: 03 New
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    Even if pistol cartridges begin to penetrate 3-4 class of protection of army body armor, there will be little sense from this. For the bulk of the battle is still conducted at distances of over 20 meters. And the gun, according to global practice, really works at distances up to 10 meters. Well, to hell with a horseradish to carry some waffenchudo from a creative company with a store for 20-30-70 rounds of ammo constantly? It is better to have additional stores for the main weapon. And then, pistols are needed in the army only for officers. And intelligence, including special, only silent. So it’s possible to create more and more new designs, but there’s no sense in them. The Ministry of Internal Affairs, the FSB, FSO, and NG have different requirements, but neither operas from Petrovka, nor the district police officer Mukhoska, nor a secret agent with secret epaulettes will wear something like SR-1, Boa constrictor, Stechkin or PYa. Slightly uncomfortable. Slightly. As for the fighters of the Central Security Service of the FSB, the garbage lads of the FSO, they have their own tasks, they can and need different types of iron, from Glock to Mauser. But this is a narrow-profile appointment.
    Recently, Americans conducted research on the 9x18 Makarov cartridge and came to the conclusion that it works pretty well under normal conditions. Data on this is on the network. Why is it that the super-duper Yankees descended to the prosaic product of the military industry, which is now banned throughout the world of the USSR? Maybe he really works? Moreover, the video from the places of application of PM in recent years, this clearly shows.
  17. Yuriy_999 10 October 2019 19: 06 New
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    The author asked the wrong question, as a result, went completely wrong.
    The question was "why does Russia choose punching action, and does the US stop it?"
    And it should be "with whom is Russia going to fight, and with whom is the USA fighting now?"
    And then everything will immediately fall into place.
  18. missuris 10 October 2019 21: 23 New
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    nonsense in the approach of the usa and in the approach of the russian federation, a pistol with stopping bullets will not do harm to a man in an infantryman’s army body armor, a pistol with armor-piercing bullets will also not damage a man in an infantryman’s army bulletproof vest. on a bullet-proof vest even a chip does not remain. When shooting meat, the US approach is better. When shooting in a helmet, the approach of the Russian Federation is better.
  19. Wildcat 11 October 2019 03: 11 New
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    hi
    Very good article, what a rarity, an asterisk is put!
    Small clarification:
    "The FBI commission was assembled after the Miami Massacre in 1986, when an FBI agent shot a criminal who had just robbed a bank. A 9 mm bullet fired by an agent hit the criminal on the side, pierced his right arm and got stuck in his right lung, completely open. Nevertheless less, the offender returned fire, killed two FBI agents and injured four others. " “This is not entirely true.” Many FBI agents looked for a couple of robbers (former military men whose activities were tightly linked to weapons). And when the FBI agents found them, it turned out that the military was ready to shoot, they had .223, 12 gauge weapons and revolvers. At agents, someone lost points, someone did not reload the revolver under fire, and someone did not shoot at all. The shootout revealed that the military were shooting faster and more accurately. The suspects were killed, but 2 agents were killed, 5 injured and 1 stranger wounded. When opening the bodies of the suspects, it turned out that despite the fact that the wounds were fatal, they allowed them to resist for some time. And it seems that quite a bit of penetration of pistol bullets was not enough for a better effect.
    Therefore, then the .40 CB caliber appeared in the FBI, pistols were on the list of weapons, slightly different training standards appeared, and revolvers began to become a thing of the past.
    Good video:


    About 10 years later, another famous shootout occurred, “Shootout in North Hollywood” when the suspects were wearing bulletproof vests with assault rief and a bunch of rounds. Pistol bullets and buckshot had no effect, and the police “darted” into the store for rifled weapons and ammunition (there was a comment by the American author that taking the weapons from the store, the police violated the law - the “waiting period” did not come out winked ) After this story, shotguns began to fade, silovikov went with .223 weapons.
    Siloviki can even show and let touch their .223 laughing

    but not everyone

    laughing
    Tactarov in "Shootout in North Hollywood" is good winked
  20. grumbler 11 October 2019 13: 57 New
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    Thanks to the author for an interesting review. Concerning the escalation of the armament of criminals and the US police, there is something interesting in Harold B. Lawson’s book, Journey Through the Systemic Landscape, chap. "Systemic problems of special forces and their solution in cases of interest," par. "Escalation". The response to the use of automatic weapons by criminals was the arming of the police. The criminals, in turn, began to use machine guns. The police naturally requested armored cars, etc. The assault on the house began to resemble a military operation. And then a decision was made to de-escalate by "minimizing the reaction" from the police, and moving to negotiation tactics.
    Escalation negatively affects the psychological climate in cities (especially in problem areas).
    The local population ceases to perceive the “armored” police (armed with machine guns moving in armored vehicles) as protection, but perceives them as “invaders”. And does not go to cooperation. This leads only to an increase in the influence of gangs (in many ways a process similar to what was in Ulster in the 70-80s, on Palestinian lands occupied by Israel) The case when the "war of calibers" has no solution.
    At the same time, incidents of mass killings, acts of terror (shooting at schools in the USA; attacks with knives in Paris and London; ramming people with vehicles) indicate that the police need weapons that can completely completely freeze the attackers, otherwise they continue to kill (negotiation tactics do not work). But this is still a policeman, not an army use context.
    According to the "concept" of the army pistol as such (I’m almost not touching ammunition, it’s not the topic), added a comment in the topic https://topwar.ru/156278-armejskij-pistolet-v-rossii-chast-2.htm
  21. kalibr 12 October 2019 06: 29 New
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    Cartridges do not have a stopping effect!
    1. stroybat ZABVO 12 October 2019 18: 31 New
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      Quote: kalibr
      Cartridges do not have a stopping effect!

      Ok you noticed!
    2. Shopping Mall 12 October 2019 20: 33 New
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      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Cartridges do not have a stopping effect!


      Yes. They talk about the stopping action of a bullet. But I believe that the cartridge (ammunition) should be considered. Since the stopping effect is affected not only by the shape of the bullet, but also by the powder charge, which is placed in the sleeve.
      And when they compare, they actually compare exactly the cartridges - .40 S&W, 10 mm Auto, .45 ACP, etc.

      Take for example .45 ACP and .45 GAP, the bullets can be the same, but the weight of gunpowder in the first can be much larger, which in the end will give a greater penetration depth and a stopping effect.
    3. dokusib 16 October 2019 14: 00 New
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      Even as they possess. The bullet itself is just a piece of lead lying on the table. The stopping effect of it appears after a shot and depends on which cartridge it is fired from. Example: .38 and 357magnum. The bullets are there ... The same (ellipses specifically for Kalibr. He loves it.) But the sleeves and the gunpowder are different. Accordingly, a different stopping effect
  22. kalibr 13 October 2019 07: 59 New
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    Quote: AVM
    Since the stopping effect is affected not only by the shape of the bullet, but also by the powder charge, which is placed in the sleeve.
    And when they compare, they actually compare exactly the cartridges - .40 S&W, 10 mm Auto, .45 ACP, etc.

    Take for example .45 ACP and .45 GAP, the bullets can be the same, but the weight of gunpowder in the first can be much larger, which in the end will give a greater penetration depth and a stopping effect.

    Andrei, it’s all clear, what affects what, don’t be offended by this nit-picking. This is purely journalistic ... I had to find such a selection of words so that ... everything was OK!
  23. philosopher 15 October 2019 20: 31 New
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    From the cartridge 7,62x25 TT in the army in vain refused.
  24. dokusib 16 October 2019 13: 49 New
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    The author did not add to the description of the first photo that the top row of cartridges with conventional shell bullets and the bottom are solid brass, the so-called Extreme Penetrators, that is armor-piercing. Extreme right 5,7mm with blue spouts means also armor-piercing. Most likely the photos were pasted from some foreign article about armor-piercing pistol ammunition.
  25. artifact 15 June 2020 00: 27 New
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    and nevertheless, to hit the vital organs of the human body, the bullet should be able to pierce at least 25-30 centimeters of soft tissue; (quote from experts)
    I even figured out the dimensions of even a well-fed person and did not understand in which place on the body those same 25-30 cm of soft tissues exceed vital organs!? even if the bullet hits, even from the top, even from the bottom into the body ....