Military Review

Army pistol in Russia. Part of 1

161
There is no sadder story in the world than the story of a Russian pistol.


In the USSR, a gun like weapon was probably at the very end of the list of current problems of the armed forces. The role of the pistol in combat is extremely insignificant, respectively, and this issue received minimal attention.

Essentially, the whole история The army pistol in the USSR is a transition from a revolver of the Nagant system to a TT pistol (Tokarev's Tula) and from a TT to a Makarov pistol. At the same time, during a certain transitional period, these types of weapons were exploited (and in some places they are still being exploited) simultaneously.


Army pistols of the USSR: “Nagan”, TT, PM (images may not coincide in scale)


In addition to the main regular weapons, which are in service with the armed forces (VS) and the Ministry of Internal Affairs (MVD), some other models have been adopted - the Stechkin automatic pistol (APS), small-sized self-loading pistol (PSM), self-loading special pistol (MSS) and others . However, their use was rather limited, and they did not claim the role of the main pistol.


Pistols APS, PSM and silent gun PSS "Vul" (images may not coincide in scale)


In fact, the collapse of the USSR was greeted by the Supreme Soviet and the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR with a single unified pistol - a Makarov pistol chambered for the caliber 9х18 PM. Formed after the collapse of the USSR, restructuring and publicity, in combination with rapidly declining defense budgets, forced developers and manufacturers of small arms to look for an opportunity to earn anything they want. One of the areas of the search for funding was the topic of creating a new army pistol. By this time, it was believed that the Makarov pistol was outdated, the power of the cartridge and the number of cartridges in the store were insufficient, the ergonomics did not correspond to modern samples of small arms.

The easiest way was chosen by the Izhevsk plant, having released an updated version of the Makarov pistol - the Makarov pistol (PMM) in 1994 year. The design of the gun is enhanced to enable high-pulse 9 × 18 PMM cartridges to be fired, approximately 70% of PMM parts are interchangeable with those of the PMM. Magazine capacity has been increased from 8 to 12 cartridges by expanding the handle and using a two-row magazine with single-row feed.

The gun is used to a limited extent by the Armed Forces, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Federal Security Service, and other security agencies, but there is no need to talk about complete rearmament. Among the shortcomings, it can be noted that the distribution of reinforced 9x18 PMM cartridges, along with the usual ones, leads to accidental or deliberate loading them into non-upgraded PM, which, when trying to fire, leads to accelerated wear of the pistol, and sometimes to its failure with the gunner getting various injuries .


Makarov pistol modernized


For the civilian market, the Skif and Skif-Mini pistols with a polymer frame were developed on the basis of the PM. But since in Russia the civilian market for rifled short-barreled weapons was not and is not, and competition is too strong abroad, these samples have not been developed.


Skiff Pistols (MP-448) and Skif-Mini (MP-448C)


In 1990, the USSR Ministry of Defense announced a competition for a new pistol, designed to replace the Makarov pistol that was in service but did not meet modern requirements (R & D Grach).

As part of this work, the Tula Central Design and Research Bureau for Sports and Hunting Weapons (TsKIB SOO - since 1997, a branch of the Tula State Unitary Enterprise “Instrument Design Bureau” - GUP “KBP”) developed the OT-27 “Berdysh” pistol. The development was carried out by I. Ya. Stechkin (the designer of that same “Stechkin”) and B. V. Avraamov, therefore the pistol is sometimes referred to as the PSA index (Stechkin – Avrahamov pistol).

The design feature was the ability to use different types of cartridges - 7,62x25, 9x18 PM or 9x19, after replacing the barrel and magazine. Also, despite the possibility of using powerful 7,62x25 and 9x19 cartridges in the “Berdysh” pistol, a circuit with a free gate, as in PM, is used to compensate for recoil in the lower part of the gate a special damper is installed. The bolt and frame of the pistol are made of steel, on the handle can be installed wooden or plastic lining.

The Ministry of Defense was not interested in this gun, and in 1994 the year it was withdrawn from the competition for an army pistol, later in small quantities entered the Ministry of Internal Affairs. In the opinion of some users, a rather interesting pistol, it is a pity that it is absent in Russian shooting galleries, and there is no way to evaluate it personally.


Pistol OZ-27 "Berdysh"


At the beginning of the 90-ies, the TsKIB SOO developed several more interesting patterns - pistols - OTs-21 "Kid", OTs-23 "Dart" and OTs-33 "Pernach".

Small-sized pistol OTs-21 "Kid" can be considered as a competitor PSM. Unlike the latter, it uses a sufficiently powerful (taking into account the dimensions of the gun) cartridge 9x18 PM (there are modifications - OTs-21C chambered for 9x17 mm and OTs-26 chambered for 5,45 × 18). The gun is entirely made of steel, with a hidden trigger, there are practically no protruding parts in it, which makes it convenient to carry and remove. Shooting is carried out only by a self-coil, there are no manual fuses, the safety of wearing with a cartridge in the chamber is ensured by the great effort required to pull the trigger.

Gun OZ-21 adopted by the prosecutor's office of the Russian Federation as a weapon of self-defense for prosecutors and investigators. This model could well be popular in the civilian market, as “ladies'” or spare weapons, including among security forces.


Gun OZ-21


The OTs-23 automatic pistol “Dart” was developed by TsKIB SOO under the direction of I.Ya. Stechkin by order of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia at the end of 1993. A special feature of the pistol was the used ammunition - 5,45x18, in conjunction with the magazine on the 24 cartridge and the possibility of firing bursts, with a cut-off 3 shot. Due to the small stopping power of the 5,45x18 cartridge, the pistol did not interest the customer and was produced in single copies.


Automatic gun OTs-23 "Dart"


For this weapon I want to make a few digressions.

First, after several cases when the FBI officers died in clashes with criminals, various tests and studies were carried out to verify the effectiveness of ammunition for short-barreled weapons.

In the end, the conclusions were formulated as follows:

1. At the moment, there are no personal weapons that can instantly immobilize an attacking enemy except for an accurate hit to the head or cervical spine with the destruction of the brain or spinal cord.
2. Since an immediate defeat cannot be guaranteed by any combination of calibers and bullets, the FBI agent must fire to defeat as long as the target is a real threat. It is recommended to use weapons with a larger capacity stores.
3. The decisive factor is the degree of preparation of the shooter, the ability to quickly and accurately fire in a stressful situation.
4. An important factor is the depth of penetration of the bullet into the body.
5. The likelihood of a larger-sized bullet being hit is higher, but the capacity of the magazine is reduced (see § 2), and the recoil often increases (see § 3).



Statistics on the killing of various calibers with bullets from the article by Greg Ellifritz from 8 in July 2011 of the year (An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power)


Secondly, the widespread use of personal protective equipment (SIB) led to the emergence of small-caliber cartridges developed under the concept of PDW (Personal defense weapon), 4,6 × 30 mm and 5,7 × 28 mm caliber. These munitions combine the low mass and recoil of the pistol cartridge with ballistics and the penetrating power of the intermediate cartridge, and allow you to hit opponents in Kevlar body armor at a distance of up to 200 m.


4,6 × 30 and 5,7 × 28 caliber cartridges and a Belgian Five-seveN pistol chambered for 5,7 × 28


In connection with the foregoing, the idea arises that on the basis of the 5,45x18 cartridge, an enhanced cartridge can be developed, for example, caliber 5,45x28 mm. And on the basis of this cartridge, a pistol was created according to the OTs-23 ideology, with 24-26 ammunition ammunition, and the possibility of firing single shots and short bursts of 2-3 shots. Such a weapon can provide a high probability of hitting the target, including in the NIB, in melee, and an increased distance of defeat when shooting single shots. Of course, additional theoretical studies and practical tests will be required to confirm this assumption.

On the basis of OTs-23, an automatic pistol OTs-33 "Pernach" was developed, intended to replace the APS. Caliber pistol OTs-33 - 9x18 PM. Compared with APS has a simpler design. The barrel of the gun is made movable to reduce the perceived recoil and reduce the rate of fire (the APS has a separate mechanism for forcing a reduction in the rate of fire). The safety lever is doubled on both sides of the gun. Capacity of standard 18 magazine cartridges, elongated 27 cartridges.

The gun did not interest potential customers and only in small quantities entered the warehouses of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.


Automatic gun OTs-33 "Pernach"


Tula state unitary enterprise “KBP” began the development of a promising army pistol from the middle of the 90-s. Distinctive features of the developed pistol П-96 are a plastic frame and locking by turning the barrel 30 degrees. The P-96 pistol at the time of manufacture was the only domestic pistol with a shock trigger mechanism.

According to the test results, the П-96 pistol was considered unsuccessful, at its base the P-96М service pistol was developed for 9 × 18 ПМ cartridge for state structures and П-96С for 9 × 17К cartridge for private security structures. P-96 pistols are considered unreliable and have caused many complaints from their few users.

Army pistol in Russia. Part of 1

P-96 Pistol



P-96C pistol


As part of the R & D "Grach" on an army pistol, the Central Scientific Research Institute of Precision Engineering (TsNIItochmash) in the middle of 90-i developed an SPS pistol (Serdyukov self-loading pistol) "Gyurza" (currently produced under the symbol CP1М) for an enhanced cartridge 9X21 mm . In the course of development, several variants of the pistol were worked out — with a fixed barrel and with a movable barrel locked by a swinging larva. As a result, the second option was chosen.

The ATP pistol has two automatic fuses - one at the back of the handle (turns off when grasping) and the second on the trigger, similar to the fuse used in Glock pistols. Manual fuse missing. A special feature of the firing mechanism is the impossibility of firing a shot when the trigger is not set on the safety platoon (to some extent this is a manual fuse, but very inconvenient).

Polymer pistol frame is made of glass-filled polyamide. According to personal feelings, the pistol is large, especially the handle, it is not very suitable for shooters with a small hand. Manual fuse in the back of the handle uncomfortably presses on the palm, all the time there is a desire to correct the grip.

The military rejected this model, but she was interested in special units of the FSB and FSO, they were interested in the high performance of the 9х21 cartridge against targets protected by body armor or obstacles such as the sides of a car.


SPS Gyurza Pistol (CP1M)


In the second part of the article will be considered: pistol GSH-18 from the State Unitary Enterprise "KBP", Izhevsk pistols MP-443 and MP-444, PL-14 and PL-15. Russian-Italian "Strike One" and "Boa" from the Central Research Institute of Precision Engineering. It will answer the question: who is to blame and what to do?

In the comments, you can leave comments and suggestions for this article, if possible I will try to take them into account in the second part.
Author:
Photos used:
guns.ru, modernfirearms.net, buckeyefirearms.org
161 comment
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. marshes
    marshes 29 March 2019 18: 14
    +1
    PM I love and respect, the best gun for self-defense.
    Close to him is Glock19, nervous. Or a revolver in a hurry of 38, with a 2 inch barrel.
    1. Michael_Zverev
      Michael_Zverev 29 March 2019 18: 23
      +3
      I did not understand what kind of
      Quote: marshes
      Glock19, nervous.
      ?
      1. marshes
        marshes 29 March 2019 18: 27
        +2
        Quote: Mikhail_Zverev
        Glock19, nervous.

        Dries the hand a little.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 19: 07
          +2
          Matter of habit. You’ll shoot 20 thousand with Glock and stop noticing after the first 4 thousand. And you can put a triple return spring from the Greeks DPM System - and the shooting will immediately become softer due to a sharp decrease in the speed of rollback at the end point.

          Well, you can choose different cartridges for different tasks. For sports with a heavy bullet and charged at the minimum permitted power factor. For self-defense - with an easy high-speed bullet.
          1. av58
            av58 30 March 2019 16: 28
            0
            With DPM (whether Greek or Israeli), Glock will not qualify for Production.
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 23: 11
              0
              In addition to the "IPSC Globe", there are other "globes" where people shoot from weapons and carry them for self-defense.

              There are other classes besides Production.

              After the changes in the IPSC rules for Production (no more than 15 rounds in the store), I no longer shoot from Glock 17 in Production. Consider this a personal protest against removing 2 "extra" rounds from the magazine.

              Everything is possible in RCC and Open (to glock with Glock in Open is completely stupid, IMHO). In Standard, no one climbed my gun. He climbs into the dimensional box - he passed.
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 18: 40
        +5
        The dude has a weak female grip, bugagahaha.

        Glock with its barrel locking scheme for more powerful (almost twice!) Cartridges works softer than PM without locking with an almost half less powerful cartridge.

        And if you load subsonic cartridges with a heavy bullet into the Glock (Fiocci 158 grains), then you can hardly expect a softer shot from a plastic pistol. Light speed bullets (Fiocci 100 gran) from Glock, of course, are felt quite sharply, but there is a power of about 600+ Joules.
        1. marshes
          marshes 29 March 2019 19: 34
          +2
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          The dude has a weak female grip, bugagahaha.

          Normal grip, since 1992 you can count. And so since 83, when he grabbed the trunk of his father when he would be in attire.
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          And if you load subsonic cartridges with a heavy bullet into the Glock (Fiocci 158 grains), then you can hardly expect a softer shot from a plastic pistol. Light speed bullets (Fiocci 100 gran) from Glock, of course, are felt quite sharply, but there is a power of about 600+ Joules.

          Didn’t you all shoot back? and in courses, although say that you are not a veteran.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 19: 45
            +1
            The grip of your "father's iron pistol" is different from the grip you need to shoot with a light plastic pistol.

            Firm hands are laid to the light pistol. The first series of Glocks in the 4th generation, due to the "female grip", often had a "chimney" until the factory figured out to release another return spring, taking into account the possible "female grip".

            I didn’t have to shoot a lot of urgent pistols. But since 2011, I shot these thousands for sports, yes.

            I calculated how much money I burned so much - I’m paying ...

            crying
        2. Wilderness
          Wilderness 29 March 2019 20: 23
          +3
          Strange, maybe these are some new trends, but it was always considered the prerogative of the girls to hold the handle too tightly. They constantly "grip" the brush white. The PM is generally used to holding with 1-2 fingers, he will not run away anywhere, his handle is comfortable.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 21: 17
            +2
            The PM has no locking of the barrel and the bolt rides back with all the dope when the bullet has already taken off. Hold - do not hold, automation will work anyway. There is only the mass of the shutter, the nonsense of the cartridge and the return spring.

            The plastic Glock has a lockable barrel. To throw out the spent sleeve, the bolt together with the barrel travels back a certain distance (millimeters), then disengages from the barrel and goes back alone. If the Glock is not held firmly, then along with the shutter, a light plastic frame also travels, the operation of the automation is disrupted and as a result (on an old spring and a weak grip) a "chimney" happened. Therefore, the plastic Glock must be held firmly so that the shutter rolls back relative to the frame.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 18: 34
      +2
      PM and a revolver with a 2 "barrel, as a weapon of self-defense, can be buried even in the same grave, if you both like them so much. I have not worn my revolver for a long time. In the safe lies a stainless charm. Fetish.

      It suited 50 years ago against unarmed criminals. And today, criminals do not have a problem with a short-barrel. From the Caucasus and Ukraine flowed to any color and size. With a revolver against Stechkin, Chez or Glock, of course, better than with a stick, but the result will be the same. Equally sad for the owner of the revolver.
      1. marshes
        marshes 29 March 2019 18: 44
        0
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        PM and a revolver with a 2 "barrel, as a weapon of self-defense, can be buried even in the same grave, if you both like them so much. I have not worn my revolver for a long time. In the safe lies a stainless charm. Fetish.

        Are you a state veteran. structures?
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        With a revolver against Stechkin, Chez or Glock, of course, better than with a stick, but the result will be the same.

        What result?
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        Equally sad for the owner of the revolver.

        The brother-in-law who lives in there loves 357 magnum 2.5, considers it a second-chance weapon and a bedside table. And this is the same 9.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 18: 54
          0
          Are you a state veteran. structures?


          I do not live in Russia.

          What result?


          The sad result. Shoot five times (part by). And that’s it. The criminal will not, like a gentleman, wait until you reload the drum. Today, a self-defense pistol is about 15 rounds.

          The brother-in-law that lives in there adores 357 magnum 2.5, considers it a weapon of second chance and a bedside table.


          There are many talkers. To shoot .357 Magnum without headphones in the room is to stun yourself and get a bullet or knife in the outhouse. When I sometimes walk my revolver into a shooting range, the .357 Magnum shot is felt by the skin of my whole body. Without headphones in a room, it’s just like a roof membrane.
          1. marshes
            marshes 29 March 2019 19: 14
            0
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            I do not live in Russia.

            Well, not a veteran?
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            I haven’t been wearing my revolver for a long time. In the safe lies, stainless charm. Fetish.


            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            The sad result. Shoot five times (part by). And that’s it. The criminal will not, like a gentleman, wait until you reload the drum. Today, a self-defense pistol is about 15 rounds.

            In my experience, the offender does skiing, physical training is very influential there. And I look Russia is a country of westerns, K / F. Although I often visit Omsk and Novosibirsk, a forest. A month, children need to be fed.
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            The sad result. Shoot five times (part by). And that’s it. The criminal will not, like a gentleman, wait until you reload the drum.

            Yes, he will fall from sin and further.
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            There are many talkers. To shoot .357 Magnum without headphones in the room is to stun yourself and get a bullet or knife in the outhouse. When I sometimes walk my revolver into a shooting range, the .357 Magnum shot is felt by the skin of my whole body. Without headphones in a room, it’s just like a roof membrane.

            Zvizdets, but it is possible. Russia!
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 19: 27
              +1
              Well, not a veteran?


              Well, why not a veteran? Honestly served urgent at the most interesting time in 1986-1988.

              And then I look Russia is a country of Westerns


              Forgot how they shot in the 90s? The Caucasus is shooting today.
              Brothers - work.

              Yes, he will fall from sin and further.


              Trying on yourself? A drug addict, motivated by substances or in need of a dose, will not dump him anywhere, but out of anger he will let out the entire store or stab him in the belly about ten times, even if he is mortally wounded.
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 19: 53
                +1
                Well, why not a veteran? Honestly served urgent at the most interesting time in 1986-1988.


                Sorry ... still 1985-1987. I served for the first year, when on January 28, 1986, the Challenger exploded on takeoff.
                1. 2329 Carpenter
                  2329 Carpenter 29 March 2019 23: 48
                  +5
                  Quote: Horse, people and soul
                  Well, why not a veteran? Honestly served urgent at the most interesting time in 1986-1988.


                  Sorry ... still 1985-1987. I served for the first year, when on January 28, 1986, the Challenger exploded on takeoff.

                  - Did everyone send condolences?
                  - That's it, Mr. Reagan ... These, these, those, others, fifths, tenths ...
                  - And the Russians?
                  - Yes. Earlier then others.
                  -?
                  - Two hours before the explosion ...
              2. marshes
                marshes 29 March 2019 20: 08
                0
                Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                Well, why not a veteran? Honestly served urgent at the most interesting time in 1986-1988.

                I have an older brother in PVKU RV SN in the year 86. I did nothing with red year 91, then I was recommended to move to Baikonur, and so the unit was in Svobodny, Uglegorsk, and where is your new site instead of Baconur.
                So who ruined the country? Brother served in 86 and called names for hours ....., on this parting word he gave me not to go to the academy of Russia.
                So I studied after school and went through the practice of how to say in far abroad countries, in addition to language, I tried weapons.
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 20: 24
                  +4
                  Yes it was. After the demobilization, they didn’t spit in the back. We, like, didn’t send you there.

                  I am ashamed of Yeltsin's Russia. If not for Putin-krants would Russia. What is now in Ukraine.

                  After 50 years, as the secrecy is removed, we learn how a group of dedicated intelligence officers with Putin at the head presented Yeltsin with a choice. Either the traditional execution in the basement, or "I'm tired, I'm a muhozhuk."

                  But, something early I write about it. Let it be considered fantasy.

                  drinks
                  1. marshes
                    marshes 29 March 2019 20: 39
                    +2
                    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                    About 50 years later, when secrecy will be removed, we will find out how a group of dedicated intelligence officers with Putin at the head presented Yeltsin with a choice.

                    Damn, do you believe that?
                    1. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 21: 21
                      +2
                      Damn, do you believe that?


                      And did you believe in 2000 that Crimea will be Russia?

                      Live another 50 years. It will be surprising. I'm old already. I will not live.
                  2. 2329 Carpenter
                    2329 Carpenter 30 March 2019 00: 01
                    +3
                    Quote: Horse, people and soul
                    Yes it was. After the demobilization, they didn’t spit in the back. We, like, didn’t send you there.

                    I am ashamed of Yeltsin's Russia. If not for Putin-krants would Russia. What is now in Ukraine.

                    After 50 years, as the secrecy is removed, we learn how a group of dedicated intelligence officers with Putin at the head presented Yeltsin with a choice. Either the traditional execution in the basement, or "I'm tired, I'm a muhozhuk."

                    But, something early I write about it. Let it be considered fantasy.

                    drinks

                    I think not with Putin at the head. Just with Putin. Perhaps Putin was alone.
                    He's not on his own. He is, as usual, "someone's" person.
                    Someone's grouping. Or castes. It doesn't matter what name.
                    Priests rarely come into the world.
                  3. lev1759
                    lev1759 31 March 2019 18: 40
                    -1
                    After 50 years, as the secrecy is removed, we learn how a group of dedicated intelligence officers with Putin at the head presented Yeltsin with a choice. Either the traditional execution in the basement, or "I'm tired, I'm a muhozhuk."

                    But, something early I write about it. Let it be considered fantasy.


                    This is not a fantasy - it is schizophrenia.
              3. Okolotochny
                Okolotochny 30 March 2019 01: 05
                -3
                For the Caucasus infa from? Euronews probably? Oh well. And who are the "Brothers"? Basaev with Khattab? At the Balts they are in the author.
          2. Vladimir 5
            Vladimir 5 29 March 2019 20: 53
            +6
            Horse Cannibal ... You are confusing a self-defense pistol with a cowboy gunfight pistol. Self-defense, when shots are from 1 to 6 against usually 1-2 people. threats and wear, so that it is convenient everywhere .. It is inconvenient to carry a bandura, weighing 16 rounds, and there is no need. (If only not a fan of demonstrations of various gigantic exclusives with elephant-killing cartridges) ... In sports shooting, there is expanse for every taste and color, and you can get used to anyone, even P-08 to someone's liking, with an amazing "seat" in hand ... As for an army pistol, so in the Russian Federation it is not clear whether the lobbyists of manufacturers interrupt each other with bribes, and those responsible for acceptance ,. glad to receive kickbacks regularly from everyone, or other troubles with the change of decision-makers on the adoption ... Leapfrog with different Yarygins and Rooks continues ...
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 21: 33
              +1
              You confuse a self-defense gun with a cowboy gun.


              That's just what I'm not confusing. The most popular self-defense pistol is the Glock 19 with 15 rounds and still carry a spare magazine, because the magazine may fail.

              If the gun must have weight, then let it be the weight of the cartridges.
              A charged Glock 19 with 15 rounds weighs slightly more than a PM with 8 rounds.

              So I always make fun of comrades who sincerely believe that they will not have to shoot for self-defense more than one-two-five-eight times. Well, everyone’s name is directly called Wolf Messing, and he sees his future in advance.

              laughing

              In competitions I saw dofig people who on the adrenaline from 2 (two!) Meters did not hit the IPSC target. In the case of real self-defense shooting, even at close range you can miss. And if you have a pocket revolver? There are only five rounds. Missed and there is no time to reload, no space to escape.
              1. Vladimir 5
                Vladimir 5 29 March 2019 22: 18
                +5
                Where, according to statistics, they saw that during self-defense there was such a shooting - more than 5-6 shots .. In the incident, during such a shooting, you will be put in jail. Self-defense, the necessary shots, to eliminate the danger to your LIFE and no more .. In the USA they put him behind bars for a shot in the back of the attacker, because there was no longer any threat to life ... You’ll already begin to begin with the basics of self-defense ...
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 22: 49
                  +3
                  Where, according to statistics, they saw that when shooting self-defense there was such shooting, - more than 5-6 shots


                  An average of 5-6 shots? That is, it can be both less and more.

                  Now, if you are in a hospital, should you care about the average temperature of patients throughout the hospital, or is it your 40,5C?

                  When your own life is at stake, then usually nonsense about the average number of shots in a shootout does not go to the head. Just take the gun with a margin.

                  I don’t think that it would be fun for you to lie under a stone with the epitaph “He lacked 6 rounds”.

                  laughing

                  You’ll really begin to start with the basics of self-defense ..


                  You do not scare me with the basics. Scared and old already. And it’s not polite on your part. Better turn your head on.

                  You can’t shoot anywhere in the back. You can shoot only at the moment of immediate danger or at the moment immediately ahead. Shot early - attack the striker. He shot after - lynching. And only a few seconds when you can. But in these seconds you can shoot so many times, while there is a danger to life. Fell - that's all. Finished.
                  1. Vladimir 5
                    Vladimir 5 29 March 2019 23: 03
                    -2
                    Let me explain: First, when danger approaches, the weapon is removed and a verbal warning is issued. Then a warning shot into the air, and only after that to kill. (according to the instructions). At the sight of a weapon in the hands of an attacker, weapons are immediately used to kill ... Actions for a former soldier do not present difficulties. For civilians, especially women, this is a problem. In such cases, it is recommended that women and others shoot first, for such persons are more often approached aggressively with criminal intent. Here you need to practice the skills of understanding the danger ... In Europe it is safer, in the USA and other Mexico there is a completely different mentality .. I live where weapons are not common, and I am glad for that, and in most cases you can get it only from trauma. try. "
                    1. Tank hard
                      Tank hard 29 March 2019 23: 25
                      +3
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      (as instructed).

                      According to the instructions rarely happens in life ... repeat
                    2. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 23: 47
                      +6
                      Let me explain: Firstly, when danger is approaching, a weapon is taken out and a verbal warning is issued. Next warning shot in the air


                      Totally wrong.

                      It is commendable that you are trying to resolve the conflict with words and intellect, but you cannot take out a weapon, you cannot fire a warning shot.

                      You can shoot only at immediate danger to life and there is no longer a demonstration of weapons and warning shots.

                      There is no danger to life - do not even think to get it. There is a danger - immediately use without any warning shots.

                      In any case, the court will have to prove that there was a danger to life. Witnesses and all that.

                      The delivery and demonstration of weapons will not frighten an experienced criminal or drug addict under the substances, but will give him an additional incentive to seize your weapon.

                      You should not think that criminals are all cowards, go unarmed and have no motivation.
                    3. Simargl
                      Simargl 30 March 2019 01: 15
                      +1
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      First, when danger is approaching, a weapon is removed and a verbal warning is issued.
                      Read the Weapons Act.
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      Next, a warning shot in the air, and only after to defeat. (according to instructions)
                      This is according to what instructions it is necessary to shoot into the air when the law clearly states: shoot only at the target, with the account of what you can’t get into? So who are you going to get into while shooting without looking?
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      Europe is safer
                      In which? The one where migrants rave about?
                      1. Vladimir 5
                        Vladimir 5 30 March 2019 15: 32
                        0
                        Simargl ... Have you ever read the rules of owning weapons for self-defense. Obviously not, so do not grind nonsense and gag .. It is necessary to take courses and clearly assimilate all the necessary actions when using weapons. Any gag and stories about the use of weapons will act at the trial (if there are defeats) against you ... Weapons are a double-edged tool, all lovers of the short barrels need to be cut off on the nose, because the use of weapons is only in urgent cases, and if there are no witnesses, maybe you’ll go to court like a criminal ......
                      2. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 23: 29
                        0
                        Vladimir, commentators here on the forum are not only from Russia, where rubber boots shoot at taverns and in car parks.

                        There are people from different countries where wearing rubber boots can come to mind only in a nightmare against a background of wearing a short barrel.

                        So, it is not necessary to poke the distorted police instruction of the USSR period as the last truth.

                        Other countries have other laws and regulations. And the weapon there is all-purpose. And the experience of application is reflected in the law.

                        laughing
                      3. Simargl
                        Simargl April 2 2019 16: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        So, it is not necessary to poke the distorted police instruction of the USSR period as the last truth.
                        Moreover, the text of the Law on Weapons is in the public domain, but there is nothing about shooting in the air, and indirectly it is prohibited at all.
                    4. Simargl
                      Simargl April 2 2019 16: 20
                      0
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      Have you ever read the rules of owning weapons for self-defense. Obviously not, so do not grind nonsense and gag ..
                      Well, grind gag and rubbish. You claiming that it is necessary to make a warning shot in the air (and where exactly - in the observer from the window? fool )
                      Can you answer when the time comes to use weapons? No? then why do you think that I know the Fa worse than you?
                  2. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 01: 53
                    0
                    Migrants - yes. One thing is good - swarthy is easy to identify. But the Ukrainians are going too. Export of organized crime from Ukraine.
                2. Astra wild
                  Astra wild 30 March 2019 11: 55
                  +1
                  Vladimir 5, you raised an interesting topic: the first shot. I dragged the gun and dabbled, NEVER wondered if I could shoot the man first
          3. Kunar
            Kunar 8 May 2019 03: 49
            0
            He categorically admitted! There are never too many cartridges! It happens a little, but no longer carry it away))))
  • Astra wild
    Astra wild 30 March 2019 11: 19
    0
    Bolot, agreeing with you: PM will be good if drug addicts or similar anti-social elements climb into the apartment to bring them to life.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 23: 31
      0
      Oh, these altruists ...
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 18: 26
    +5
    There is no sadder story in the world than the story of a Russian pistol.


    Capacitively.

    Wildly plus. I'm crying ...

    crying
    1. VeteranVSSSR
      VeteranVSSSR 29 March 2019 21: 59
      +4
      There are no words, mo-lod-tsa !!!
      And for me
      1. VeteranVSSSR
        VeteranVSSSR 29 March 2019 22: 00
        +2
        Did you recognize the pistol ???
        1. VeteranVSSSR
          VeteranVSSSR 29 March 2019 22: 02
          +2
          I think that the generation of boys who grew up in pantyhose, but most of them are here, have not heard of this gun ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 22: 52
            +1
            Since childhood, a shop was lying around to Margolin. Presented the year before the small arrow.
          3. Okolotochny
            Okolotochny 30 March 2019 01: 08
            +1
            For the photo plus. For your unreasonable snobbery minus. In my childhood, "in pantyhose," such a one was made of metal, the size of a finger's floor.
        2. marshes
          marshes 29 March 2019 22: 14
          +1
          Pistol Margolin 5.6 yellow shells. The store was at 10 but shot in the 80s, three at a time. My father was cooking in some small SKAs.
          1. Major_Vortex
            Major_Vortex 29 March 2019 22: 22
            +2
            Quote: marshes
            Pistol Margolin 5.6 yellow shells. The store was at 10 but shot in the 80s, three at a time. My father was cooking in some small SKAs.

            We have marogolins and izhaki in the shooting range, where I studied shooting, back in school. I didn’t like pistols. I liked everything with the butt and shoots accurately, and makes less noise. But I shot of them all from the heart. Makakov liked more.
            1. marshes
              marshes 29 March 2019 22: 48
              0
              Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
              We have marogolins and izhaki in the shooting range, where I studied shooting, back in school. I didn’t like pistols.

              In general, my father wanted me to stand out from the unit. He 87 retired, the athletes from TURKVO approached, they say you have a postcard for Muscovite 412 and you write the order for serving your country 2 degrees, they say you have a red star for the Afghan medal, why complicate retirement. This is after the events of 86 in Almaty., so don’t ring that the national staff has not been affected.
              1. Okolotochny
                Okolotochny 30 March 2019 01: 11
                0
                I apologize, but what kind of Order for Service to the Fatherland 2 degrees?
                1. Astra wild
                  Astra wild 30 March 2019 11: 28
                  +1
                  She was still small, and my father from somewhere brought a colored poster, where the order was depicted: "For Service to the Motherland" of 2 or 3 degrees (I forgot). Apparently, the father of Bolot had this order
                  1. Okolotochny
                    Okolotochny April 2 2019 12: 28
                    0
                    It was written for the Service to the Fatherland, and not to the Homeland. That's why I asked.
            2. Major_Vortex
              Major_Vortex 30 March 2019 10: 54
              +1
              ... typo - Makarov. sometimes you freeze it so it's better not to read it yourself lol
          2. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 22: 53
            +3
            Yellow are GDR, trump cards. Steel green - there were a lot of misfires.
        3. Shopping Mall
          30 March 2019 12: 07
          +2
          Quote: VeteranVSSSR
          Did you recognize the pistol ???


          The first real gun from which I shot.
      2. Simargl
        Simargl 30 March 2019 01: 19
        +2
        Quote: VeteranVSSSR
        And for me

        Then too ...
      3. Astra wild
        Astra wild 30 March 2019 12: 12
        0
        Veteran, but I really liked PSM: neat, light and angry. Now I learned, though theoretically, Glock, ChZ.
  • tasha
    tasha 29 March 2019 18: 37
    +5
    The role of the pistol in battle is extremely minor
    Just in case, I’ll draw the attention of readers to the title of the article and to this comment by the author of the article about ARMY pistols. Those same Americans, as someone sensible wrote in VO, did not create anything new for their army in a hundred years.
    1. marshes
      marshes 29 March 2019 19: 17
      +1
      Quote: tasha
      Those same Americans, as someone sensible wrote in VO, did not create anything new for their army in a hundred years.

      Yes, 100 years have already passed for Browning, Colt 1910 pardon.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 19: 35
        +1
        Colt 1911 has changed slightly over this century. Americans, yes, are obsessed with it. Sharpened for sports models cost quietly and at 4000+ dollars. And they have their own customers.
        1. marshes
          marshes 29 March 2019 20: 10
          +1
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Sharpened for sports models cost quietly and at 4000+ dollars. And they have their own customers.

          26 thousand, the Colt passed Japan and Korea., Not a trunk.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 20: 33
            +3
            Well, it's collectible, with documents. I'm talking about a massive remake for athletes. Plain 1911 $ 800 to $ 1500. Chinese Norinkos were 400-500 dollars. The 1500 is a "cheap" model from Sig.

            From time to time I try to buy 1911, but each time I find myself thinking that I do not need it. IPSC neither in Classics, nor in Open class I shoot. I’m already used to Glock. Either in Production, or in Standard, or in Pistol Caliber Carbine. Why I shoot a lot - I wear it. The principle is clear.

            Old already, re-getting used to other weapons is not a hunt. Glock is already at the level of instinct.

            drinks
    2. haron
      haron 30 March 2019 07: 54
      0
      Quote: tasha
      Those same Americans, as someone sensible wrote in VO, did not create anything new for their army in a hundred years.

      Well, to put it mildly, not quite like that. The same M9 Beretta was adopted in 1990. And the reason is just that which the author indicated in the subject.
      And the fact that 1911 is in service, the Yankees do not like to give up something at all, the conservatism of the SEER.
      Yes, and take a look at the parts that are shooting not only at the firing range ..
    3. Catfish
      Catfish 30 March 2019 14: 34
      +1
      What for? They had a 1911 Colt design by John Browning. smile
  • purple
    purple 29 March 2019 18: 45
    +2
    What is the meaning of the article? Is this some kind of essay on pistols?
    Now Wikipedia is, it says the same thing ... Nothing new, why this article?
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 18: 48
    +1
    In the USSR, a pistol as a weapon was probably at the very end of the list of urgent problems of the armed forces. The role of the pistol in battle is extremely insignificant, respectively, and minimal attention was paid to this issue.


    There was no pistol school in the USSR, and nowhere was there, in any country, except for special forces, until Colonel Jeff Cooper invented sport practical shooting and began to promote IPSC.

    Only by doing practical shooting or tactical shooting in special equipment (there is a difference between them) can we understand what a pistol should be like, an effective melee weapon, and not like a status rattle that is carried every day in a holster and fired three rounds every year.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 19: 21
    +1
    In the framework of R&D "Grach" for an army pistol, the Central Scientific Research Institute of Precision Engineering (TsNIItochmash) developed the Gyurza SPS pistol (Self-loading pistol Serdyukov) in the mid-90s (currently produced under the CP1M index) under a reinforced cartridge 9x21 mm .


    Before the ATP, the special forces even had Browning High Power, though with classic 9x19 Parabellum cartridges, which was not enough according to reviews. There were no NATO ammunition in the USSR, and, in the campaign, this cartridge was not yet mediated in NATO. Then the USSR purchased in France a batch of Manurin MR-73 revolvers under the .357 Magnum.
    Because ATP and ordered that they needed a gun with a cartridge power, like the .357 Magnum.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 19: 25
    +3
    It is a pity that the article does not provide figures for the amount of exotics produced, such as "Pernach" or P-96, "Kid".

    Without these figures, we with serious faces are ready to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of what is practically not available. Such advantages and disadvantages of a crystal spherical horse in a vacuum.
  • senima56
    senima56 29 March 2019 19: 37
    0
    "An answer will be given to the question: who is to blame and what to do?" - really? !!! Well, well ... Let's see, read ...
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 19: 58
      +1
      Well, who is to blame if there is no water in the tap?

      Well, well ...

      laughing
  • Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 29 March 2019 19: 50
    +3
    The gun is the most useless weapon in the army. Who fought, he will understand. The gun is good in the civilian market where compact weapons are required. And since there is no civilian weapons market in Russia, there is no good gun, since there is no demand.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 20: 08
      +6
      The US military has a pistol - a spare weapon from the First World War. Some of their conscripts took their personal 1911. In part they gave them a rifle, and the pistol was worn on a personal initiative. Just in case. There is a well-known case when a personal pistol saved the life of an American hero of that war. This story was propagandized, widely known to Americans, and in World War II, Korean and Vietnamese phenomena, carrying around with every fireman in 1911 became widespread. In Iraq and Afghanistan, commanders were given the right to supply subordinates with additional pistols at their discretion.

      The Americans and their allies often refused the main weapon, and in a city building or village, the battle could instantly become a close one. Then the gun saved lives. Experience began to spread and now has become a standard weapon in the American landing.

      The gun for the military does not really make sense, as the main weapon, but kah spare, saves lives. Like a helmet at a construction site.

      yes
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 30 March 2019 15: 56
        +1
        Carry a gun, and even such a bandura as M1911 and spare shops, this is with a holster of almost 2 kg of weight. I’d better take three grenades for these 2 kg, or if you need to go far, then the supply of food and water.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 23: 41
          +1
          Yes, wear what you want.

          laughing

          The Americans, who wanted, wore 1911 in all wars. Those who did not want to carry the stew.

          Statistics holds back who and how many returned home who chose 1911 and who chose stew, but only for the next war they again take 1911. Probably, they considered such an experience to be positive.
    2. marshes
      marshes 29 March 2019 20: 12
      +1
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      The gun is the most useless weapon in the army. Who fought, he will understand.

      AKM or AK-74 is the thing. laughing
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 20: 38
        +4
        It also happens to fail. But there is no time. And the grenade remains.

        And if there was a gun, maybe it would be possible to shoot back, and not to undermine himself.

        An extra chance to return home is not in canned food.

        Our pilot in Syria, a hero, could not shoot with the APS, blew himself up with a grenade. When it was found, several of the shot shops were found. It is not clear why not empty. There must have been delays, he changed the store after the delay.
        1. marshes
          marshes 29 March 2019 21: 29
          +3
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Our pilot in Syria, a hero, could not shoot with the APS, blew himself up with a grenade. When it was found, several of the shot shops were found. It is not clear why not empty. There must have been delays, he changed the store after the delay.

          I do not know the circumstances of the battle, if with him there would be AKS-74 U, Ksenia Shotgun, then I could give a full battle.
          Ksyuha used 12 years. For a short 5.45, the bullets lay sideways. A very brutal aggregate. A hundred meters at an angle such beautiful triangles.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 22: 57
            +2
            Of course, Ksenia would give at least a chance.
          2. Simargl
            Simargl 30 March 2019 01: 23
            +1
            Quote: marshes
            if with him would be AKS-74 U, Ksenia Shotgun, then he could give a full battle.
            AKS-74 U - is ersatz-PP, occupies its niche. Modern PPs are one and a half times less both in mass and in size.
            1. Major_Vortex
              Major_Vortex 30 March 2019 11: 17
              0
              Quote: Simargl
              AKS-74 U - is ersatz-PP, occupies its niche. Modern PPs are one and a half times less both in mass and in size.

              Ideally, for each cartridge, for each distance, you can create the perfect weapon. But Ksenia under a standard army cartridge, and this for the military turned out to be a better solution than adopting another model of weapons, which needs a separate special cartridge, which may still not be at hand at the right time. Ksenia has no problems with bullets. Too spit it all the same, too, is not necessary. This is a reliable Kalash, only with a 2 times shortened barrel. The cooling for the barrel had to be thought out better so that it did not overheat longer. A short barrel under a hot cartridge with automatic fire quickly overheats, compared with a standard AK barrel. Somewhere, they saw Kalashnikov being pressed from the headquarters so that he would not be too keen on creativity when creating a shortened assault rifle. And it was Kalashnikov from all the participants of the competition who took the sample, because it is unified with other machine guns of the family. Now Dragkunovsky’s MA has been taken, because the lid of the receiver to which the barrel is attached turned out to be a more promising solution than attaching the barrel to the receiver.
            2. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 23: 47
              +1
              It is both ersatz. And APS is ersatz.

              And, here, a group of helicopters full of weapons, and with a trained team for evacuation - not ersatz. When on time.

              The pilot is not a special forces soldier or a motorized rifle to conduct a battle from personal weapons.
              1. beeper
                beeper April 5 2019 15: 48
                0
                Quote: Horse, people and soul
                It is both ersatz. And APS is ersatz.

                And, here, a group of helicopters full of weapons, and with a trained team for evacuation - not ersatz. When on time.

                The pilot is not a special forces soldier or a motorized rifle to conduct a battle from personal weapons.

                hi TOTALLY SUPPORT! good
                The training of a modern pilot is very long and, in terms of the total cost and its combat value, it is very expensive (especially, in wartime, probably much more than an ingot of gold of a pilot's "live weight" would cost? winked ) and justifies any costs for its rescue, both for a powerful search and rescue service, and for the best equipment for survival!
                The Americans, we must give them their due, understood and understand this well, AND SAMPLE SAVE their flyers, but Russian military commanders, like the Soviet ones, apparently traditionally UNDERSTAND the value of saving their downed pilot ??!
    3. 2329 Carpenter
      2329 Carpenter 30 March 2019 00: 10
      +2
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      The gun is the most useless weapon in the army. Who fought, he will understand. The gun is good in the civilian market where compact weapons are required. And since there is no civilian weapons market in Russia, there is no good gun, since there is no demand.

      No.
      Downed in WWII pilots write something else.
      Let them say that he will be better than he will not.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 01: 09
        +2
        The Americans flew with the .38 Special revolver. True, it was then fully charged, as today few manufacturers charge. Today, pocket-sized short-barreled revolvers are more common than full-size revolvers with 4 "-6" bore. And for pocket revolvers, cartridges are needed of a different quality, given the short barrel and strong recoil at a low weight. The power difference .38 Special can be 100 Joules from different manufacturers and different product lines.

        That .38 Special gave 480 Joules from a 4 "barrel, like the pistol of that period under 9x19. Only the bullet from the revolver was much heavier than 158 grains against 124 or 115 grains in 9x19.
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 30 March 2019 15: 54
        +1
        Quote: Carpenter 2329
        Downed in WWII pilots write something else.
        Let them say that he will be better than he will not.

        Of course it's better to have a gun than a knife. But having PPP is much better than having TT or Nagan.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 23: 57
          +1
          Better yet, have a radio station and an established pilot evacuation system.

          But then it wasn’t.

          The pilot is not a commando or motorized rifle to engage in battle. He needs to call the evacuation and move to the point of evacuation. Secretly.

          If he needs weapons, then noiseless, if he fell into military guard, patrols, random witnesses, dogs, etc.

          The downed Powers had with him was not a submachine gun, but a silent pistol.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  • Major_Vortex
    Major_Vortex 29 March 2019 20: 24
    0
    It is a good idea to have a gun with a high speed bullet in the army and for specialists, with a flat trajectory, high precision, so that flashing bulletproof vests and helmets. Also with light ammunition, lighter than 9 mm. Armor-piercing bullets with a hardened core and immediately design a cartridge with a slightly reduced flange to win in the design of pistols and future submachine guns under it. The Belgian flange slightly reduced compared to the diameter of the sleeve. Due to the smaller mass of the cartridge, we also reduce the mass of the weapon with a fully equipped magazine. A lower return cartridge allows you to create a lighter weapon under such a cartridge.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 21: 48
      +4
      It’s a good idea to have a gun with a high speed bullet in the army and for specialists, with a flat trajectory, high precision, so that flashing bulletproof vests and helmets. Also with light ammunition, lighter than 9 mm. Hardened core armor-piercing bullets


      With such requests, the weapon already exists and is called the AK-74. Compared to a pistol, 100 points forward, except for size.

      A gun is still a weapon up to 25 meters, although it is actually used usually at half the distance.

      Since the year before last, senseless, if not simply stupid and harmful attempts to make a mini-rifle out of a pistol have continued.

      Shl ... you know why the muzzle-loading capsule revolvers on the black gunpowder Colt and Remington of the late 1800s had a half lower fly than their modern counterparts? And because they were shooting at 75 yards then! What is not a mini rifle? The fly, by the way, is thin and really allows you to shoot at such a distance. For remodelers, respectively, the front sight is twice as high, so that with the same energy of the shot, the bullet would fly 25 meters into the center of the target, and not into the milk above the target.

      Do not try to make a howitzer from a pistol for penetrating helmets, armored personnel carriers, armor, elephant skulls, etc.
      1. Major_Vortex
        Major_Vortex 29 March 2019 21: 54
        -1
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        Since the year before last, senseless, if not simply stupid and harmful attempts to make a mini-rifle out of a pistol have continued.

        This is not a rifle, this is a smaller AK-74 in your pocket, with pistol recoil laughing
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 23: 01
          +3
          There is no reduced AK-74 with declared capabilities in the size of a pistol.

          hi
          1. Major_Vortex
            Major_Vortex 29 March 2019 23: 07
            -1
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            There is no reduced AK-74 with declared capabilities in the size of a pistol.

            It happens. You still do not understand everything in external ballistics. Apparently you think that a bullet fired from a barrel is flying at a constant speed. True, the Nafik pistol does not need fully automatic fire and enough self-loading mode. But the submachine gun for 3 shots with fixed bursts does not hinder the regime.
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 23: 55
              +4
              No, dear comrade, you still won’t understand that for a pistol that works at a pistol distance of up to 25 meters and for the most part at a half shorter distance, absolutely do not care for external ballistics for any pistol caliber.

              A gun is a gun.
              A submachine gun is a submachine gun.
              An automaton is an automaton.

              Different distances. Different tasks.
              1. Major_Vortex
                Major_Vortex 30 March 2019 00: 15
                0
                Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                You still won’t understand that for a pistol operating at a pistol distance of up to 25 meters and for the most part at a half shorter distance, the external ballistics for any pistol caliber absolutely do not care.

                Not yet created in the world of small arms, which do not care about ballistics. First, you still need to get out of the gun. Even 25 meters. A pistol with a flat path and low recoil, which saves enough energy to hit a target for 150-200 meters, will allow you to shoot more accurately, and along the flat path. The returns are small - the practical rate of fire will increase. And in close combat, the stopping effect will be achieved by a high-speed bullet. This bullet also inside will make such a wound that the chances of recovering and answering are very doubtful.

                On the basis of a successful cartridge under the gun, you can release a compact and light submachine gun. What is the problem? You yourself write about the whale for converting Glock into a light carbine, and you say that it’s good to shoot at 100 meters. Of course it’s good with the butt, to shoot at 100 meters from a more stable position laughing
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 01: 18
                  +1
                  You yourself write about the whale for converting Glock into a light carbine, and you say that it’s good to shoot at 100 meters. Of course it’s good with the butt, from a more stable position shoot at 100 meters laughing


                  Duc not from the same Glock 17 barrel, which is 114 mm, but from a 10 "inch barrel 25.4 cm, comparable to the barrel length MP38 / 40, which somehow fired up to 200 meters.

                  Just the conversation went for the 9x19 cartridge, the energy of which is enough for firing from a 25 cm barrel up to 100 m, considering not just piercing the paper, but the action on the target "enemy soldier".

                  This bullet also inside will make such a wound that the chances of recovering and answering are very doubtful.


                  Video, how this bullet gelatin pierces, can you show? Just do not here about 5.56x45.

                  laughing

                  The video of how the Fiocchi Black Mamba 9x19 somersaults almost immediately after breaking through I have posted here many times. And from my own experience, a 5 liter canister jumps up to its height and everything is torn behind. Tears 10-15 centimeters.
                2. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 01: 54
                  +2
                  Not yet created in the world of small arms, which do not care about ballistics. First, you still need to get out of the gun.


                  At a distance of 10-15-25 meters absolutely do not care you get 1-2-5 centimeters in one direction or another. Have you seen an IPSC target with alpha charlie delta zones? Attach to your chest and see what your organs cover these areas. Heart with major arteries, lungs, liver ...

                  At a distance of 10-15-25 meters absolutely do not care, you will get into the heart a few centimeters higher, lower, left or right.

                  That is, ballistics at such a distance for any pistol caliber absolutely does not care for the practical use of weapons. Do not care for wind direction and deviation. Absolutely. And absolutely do not care what caliber. At such a distance, the flight of a bullet can be considered flat, not parabolic. For any pistol caliber at pistol distance.

                  laughing
                  1. Major_Vortex
                    Major_Vortex 30 March 2019 03: 58
                    0
                    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                    At a distance of 10-15-25 meters absolutely do not care, you will get into the heart a few centimeters higher, lower, left or right.

                    That is, the ballistics at such a distance for any pistol caliber absolutely do not care for the practical use of weapons. Do not care wind direction and deviation. Absolutely. And absolutely do not care what caliber.

                    And to the point of view of a shotgun with a double 12 caliber with a canister shotgun fall off, all four at once. The 2 caliber 12 cartridge replaces the complete Glock magazine with a cartridge in the barrel. They do everything quickly, without going to a psychologist and knowing the zones on the IPSC target. laughing
                    Imagine: a drug addict with a edge, and you with glock? One volley and years of training for the cat under the tail. Life is pain wink
                    1. Shopping Mall
                      30 March 2019 12: 12
                      +1
                      Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
                      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                      At a distance of 10-15-25 meters absolutely do not care, you will get into the heart a few centimeters higher, lower, left or right.

                      That is, the ballistics at such a distance for any pistol caliber absolutely do not care for the practical use of weapons. Do not care wind direction and deviation. Absolutely. And absolutely do not care what caliber.

                      And to the point of view of a shotgun with a double 12 caliber with a canister shotgun fall off, all four at once. The 2 caliber 12 cartridge replaces the complete Glock magazine with a cartridge in the barrel. They do everything quickly, without going to a psychologist and knowing the zones on the IPSC target. laughing
                      Imagine: a drug addict with a edge, and you with glock? One volley and years of training for the cat under the tail. Life is pain wink


                      Yes, drug addicts and drunks do not have shotguns or pistols, all this will immediately be exchanged for "natural product" without dubious experiments with robbery and shootout. A knife may well be, or a screwdriver, a hammer ...

                      If we talk about a serious exchange of fire, this is, for example, a situation like with the GTA gang, when drivers were robbed and killed in the Moscow region.
                      1. Major_Vortex
                        Major_Vortex 30 March 2019 15: 40
                        0
                        Quote: AVM
                        Yes, drug addicts and drunks do not have shotguns or pistols, all this will immediately be exchanged for "natural product" without dubious experiments with robbery and shootout. A knife may well be, or a screwdriver, a hammer ...

                        How can I help our friend? The horse, people and souls (Incitatus) were attacked by drug addicts in all reports, and he chose a glock to fight these annoying vegetables.
                        A drug addict with a sawed-off shotgun solves all the problems of an IPSC-Schnick with a glock associated with trips to a psychologist and to a training ground, with constant idling of weapons, and solves it guaranteed - in one volley. Do not underestimate the addicts. Grandpa’s shotgun from the attic to saw off the addict and make a sawn-off shotgun of it is completely affordable, and you’ll manage to manage the hacksaw in time until the state known to every addict begins.
                        The reliability of a double-barreled shotgun loaded with 12-caliber cartridges with buckshot is several times higher than the reliability of a glock with 18 cartridges in the magazine and 1 in the barrel. Moreover, the chance not to give up the hooves after such a volley is rapidly approaching "0". Glock better cut down the front sight. For there are no options: large-caliber multi-barreled artillery against a 9 mm pistol laughing
                      2. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 00: 22
                        0
                        Glock is better to cut the fly. For here there are no options: large-caliber multi-barreled artillery against a 9 mm pistol


                        You are a well-known fan of speculating on the merits of a crystal cubic horse in a vacuum relative to a crystal spherical horse in a vacuum.

                        laughing

                        It is worth cutting a fly to anyone who has no brains.

                        laughing
                    2. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 00: 15
                      0
                      If we talk about a serious exchange of fire, this is, for example, a situation like with the GTA gang, when drivers were robbed and killed in the Moscow region.


                      Moreover, drivers (Russians) could not have weapons with them. The gang acted for sure. For drivers, the role of the victim was prepared.
                  2. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 00: 10
                    0
                    And at point-blank range of a shotgun with a 12-gauge doublet with buckshot at the horse's hooves fall


                    A horse without hooves is especially a pity ... It's just some kind of horse-phobia! I protest!

                    laughing

                    A very sad fact, but it is a fact: a personal weapon does not guarantee survival, but only gives a chance for such survival. Case with a sawn-off shot from this number. If the sawn-off shotgun is already sent to the belly, then the chances are few. But there is. They hope that the addict will leave a living witness - naively. So ... everyone will decide for himself what to do. Become a victim or try to resist.

                    Here's how to resist with weapons in their hands are taught at self-defense courses with weapons (not Russian courses for rubber swimmers).
                    1. Major_Vortex
                      Major_Vortex 31 March 2019 00: 34
                      0
                      Clear. You have a glock gun - you are pleased with it, and I am pleased that you have a glock gun, there are self-defense courses with weapons - this is also good. There are drug addicts with knives who are constantly trying to attack a person with five glocks in a cabinet of 3 mm steel, at least one of which is now in this person’s hands and is waiting for another victim wink
                      But what side is the gun for the military, who today is dressed in serious bulletproof equipment? To increase the power of a 9 mm cartridge for penetrating perfect bronics - the pistol’s recoil will increase, certain problems will appear with the inherent accuracy and accuracy of a powerful 9 mm pistol, it will become even harder to pull cartridges, as the weight of the weapon itself under a powerful 9 mm cartridge will increase.

                      And there are ready-made solutions, like the same Five-Sevn, which is lighter than glock, in the magazine there are 20 rounds, cartridges 5,7x28 mm FN are lighter by about 1/4 9 mm, the gun is more accurate, with a linear path of the bullet for 150 m, penetrates third-class armor up to 200 meters, helmets, and inflicts very heavy wounds - the bullet unfolds inside the block from a special ballistic gel, the bullet penetrates deeply too. A bullet is lighter than a 9-10 mm pistol. But 5,7x28 mm is not a .22 LR melcan, but a very powerful pistol cartridge with low recoil and convenient dimensions for the pistol. Domestic 5,45 mm is almost the same diameter of a bullet as that of a Belgian. And to stifle drug addicts without bronikov at home in the iron cabinet are 5 glocks.
                    2. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 02: 54
                      0
                      What happens to a person receiving one or more bullets in a bulletproof vest and helmet at a distance of a typical pistol shot under conditions of non-penetration of protection?

                      The options are:
                      1) nothing happens. The man is new and healthy, as soon as he did exercises in the morning and drank some coffee, because getting bullets in his vest and helmet invigorates better than cocaine

                      2) a person feels severe pain or loses consciousness upon arrival in a helmet, reactions are inhibited. The more bullets he gets, the more he brakes. At a distance of a pistol shot of 5-10-25 meters, no one will shoot him while standing still in the pose of Weaver. That is, inhibited by pain and hits (hand, foot) will not be able in response to effectively shoot at a moving enemy.

                      If two bullets are enough for a "naked" person before, then hardly any religion forbids the release of 10 pieces against a "naked" person, and there will be hits on the arms and legs - wherever necessary, especially not aiming at such a distance. Immobilized - in the head. The final.

                      The differences between non-penetration and penetration of an already slowed-down bulletproof vest with a light core are not very large during these several seconds or tens of seconds after being hit, since a slow light core after penetration is not the same high-speed and high-energy bullet that was before penetration. This light core will not cut down instantly. After all, we are talking about the core 5.7x28, and not about the core 5.56x45.

                      Therefore, during this time there is no difference in the consequences between breaking through and not breaking. In both cases, a large number of bullets can be fired that fall on unprotected arms and legs - with a final shot in the head.

                      Малый pistol armor-piercing caliber is not a panacea against a protected target. Damage to health, of course it will bring.
                      But bullets of ordinary pistol caliber in large quantities did not penetrate the bulletproof vest, but those that fell on the hands and feet would eventually lead to a bullet in the head. After all, a distance of up to 25 meters and time from a matter of seconds to a dozen for everything about everything.
                    3. Major_Vortex
                      Major_Vortex 31 March 2019 09: 45
                      0
                      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                      I did exercises and drank some coffee, because getting bullets in a vest and helmet invigorates better than cocaine

                      Stop the cocaine cheer up, shooters! I have seen the consequences of taking cocaine in people: the human psyche is destroyed, the person turns into a pitiful mentally ill vegetable - a disgusting sight. I am from a generation when drugs of all kinds are widespread and have seen enough of different addicts. Cocaine users end up badly. Cocaine is a hard drug made and mixed by hucksters with all kinds of chemistry that will not bring health to any of the users. I also saw deaths from cocaine users. It's better not even to try this nasty stuff, especially if you look at the Internet for "what is coke made of". Smart people are smart enough not to even try this stuff. All modern drug addicts are stupid people.
                      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                      Therefore, during this time there is no difference in the consequences between breaking through and not breaking. In both cases, a large number of bullets can be fired that fall on unprotected arms and legs - with a final shot in the head.

                      The difference between non-penetration, when the bullet is self-leveling and absorbed by modern body armor, and penetration is still large. If broken, then the person is injured or killed. If it is not broken, then the maximum is a slight shock or fright, and in many cases just a slight fright and adrenaline. And if you hit in unprotected places, then there is like with a normal wound. A large-caliber pistol for a powerful cartridge is poorer in balance because it has a larger recoil arm for such a gun, poorer gun balancing with respect to the optimal center of mass of the gun, worse balancing of the moving parts of the automation by similar parameters, the gun is heavier, it is worse to control and less accurate, cartridges are also heavy in large caliber. If you shoot at close range, then a pistol of any design will do, even with disgusting innate accuracy. Up to about 10 meters, you can shoot quite accurately without any rifling in the barrel from a gun made artisanally. But you still have to shoot from a combat pistol farther than 10 meters, and you need a normal, rather heaped design of the pistol, and a powerful enough ammunition to not only scare the enemy. Raising the power of the gun should carefully increase the caliber. This is not a civilian glock under a 9 mm civilian cartridge. You can’t press a pistol with your butt to your chest like an automatic machine, and the mass of the pistol is smaller - your wrists may not be able to cope and the bullets will fly past the target. Therefore, the caliber must be increased smoothly, increasing the speed of the bullet.
            2. beeper
              beeper April 5 2019 16: 05
              0
              hi DERIVATION, and not deviation (this is already from the field of navigation and topography), dear Horse, Clerk and Lovemaker! repeat Let's instill in our youth the correct gun concepts, they are our successors, who then should we transfer the "letter" ?! winked
  • san4es
    san4es 29 March 2019 20: 46
    +5
    hi ... In addition to the main full-time weapons, armed with the armed forces (Armed Forces) and the Ministry of the Interior (MVD), some other models have been adopted as well - the Stechkin automatic pistol (APS)

    ... pistol self-loading small-sized (PSM),
    ... special self-loading pistol (PSS) and others .... soldier

  • san4es
    san4es 29 March 2019 21: 13
    +2
    hi ... Automatic pistol OTs-23 "Drotik" was developed by TsKIB SOO under the leadership of I. Ya. Stechkin by order of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia at the end of 1993
    Pistol OZ-27 "Berdysh"
    Gun ATP "Gyurza" soldier (SR1M)
  • san4es
    san4es 29 March 2019 21: 20
    +2
    ... Belgian Five-seveN pistol chambered for 5,7 × 28


    Five-seveN is currently serving in the Armed Forces and the Police in more than 40 countries, including Canada, France, Greece, India, Poland, Spain and the United States. In the United States, five to seven is used with numerous law enforcement agencies, including the US Secret Service. Over the years since the appearance of the pistol on the civilian market in the United States, it has also become increasingly popular among civilian shooters.
    The five-seven pistol and its 5,7x28mm ammunition were developed by Herstal in response to NATO requests to replace the 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge and associated pistols and machine guns. NATO demanded two types of weapons chambered for the new cartridge: one for the shoulder and the other for the hand. According to NATO, these new weapons, called Personal Defense Weapons (PDWs), were intended to provide "personal protection in emergencies ... hi
    1. Major_Vortex
      Major_Vortex 29 March 2019 21: 47
      0
      Interesting pistol shutter design. Heavy steel shutter inside a lightweight plastic casing. The heavy bolt was eased: they removed excess metal, made it almost a skeleton, and the center of gravity at the bolt was lowered to increase the accuracy of firing from the pistol and the aiming speed after the previous shot, which is also facilitated by the reduced recoil of the new cartridge, the movable barrel sits low - this is also good for accurate and quick shots. The sleeve is small, with a reduced flange - also a lighter and more compact shutter, a slightly lower center of gravity of the movable shutter. This is just the shutter pistol. This gun has a bunch of interesting nuances that the ordinary shooter does not even know when he enjoys shooting. The gun is light and accurate. And in appearance a regular gun. And the cartridge is interesting, in which even the little things are important. There are a lot of rounds in the store. The dream of a gunman-obsessed perfectionist.
      1. san4es
        san4es 29 March 2019 22: 23
        +2
        Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
        ... the cartridge is interesting.

        hi ... Punching action should be good, ... stopping - in doubt.
        1. Major_Vortex
          Major_Vortex 29 March 2019 22: 43
          +1
          Quote: san4es
          Punching action should be good, ... stopping - in doubt.

          If the President of the United States is guarded with such pistols and in the world these pistols diverge very well and are appreciated by specialists, then this is normal. The bullet is fast with a diameter of 5,7 mm, like the .223 Remington. The initial speed is slightly lower. If you shoot at close range from the AR-15 and this pistol, then the AR-15 is more powerful. And if you take into account that with a distance the bullet speed of the AR-15 decreases, and the pistol does not shoot at rifle distances, then they are classmates, only Five-Sevne for close combat and lies quietly in the pants pocket (in the holster). But at 150 meters, Five Sevn is still very angry, and steel helmets with armor slaps. The cartridge exceeds the standard 9 mm in performance. FN Hestral - Belgians. They also have factories in the USA. It is necessary in Russia something similar, but its own, too, to master in production.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 23: 11
            +3
            The cartridge exceeds the standard 9 mm in performance.


            At the pistol distance, the most important stopping action.
            Even the expansive 5.7x28 bullets do not exceed the 9x19 bullet in stopping action at the pistol distance.

            They can make a hole in a suicide bomber with a suicide belt. Stop instantly - no. Unless they get into your head. But in the head - this is how it is possible to agree before the capsule revolver of the mid-1800s. You can also get into his head.

            laughing
            1. Major_Vortex
              Major_Vortex 29 March 2019 23: 27
              +1
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              At the pistol distance, the most important stopping action.

              stopping effect is different. They write a lot about the mass of the bullet that she will knock out. But this is most likely true for large calibers and not against all people. Many people are not stopped by the mass of the bullet, but, as it were, the shock of a very strong and quick blow, but not necessarily a heavy one. This effect goes to the central nervous system and it takes time to recover from such a blow. All these nuances are not fully understood. For example, I don’t feel the severity of the blow, because I was engaged in boxing from childhood, then intensified by rather tough oriental martial arts. It’s big and strong, very well packed. It also came to me from shooters. He made firearms when, due to the slow speed of the bullet, if the bullet hit nothing, the wounded man walked as if nothing had happened. And if I got speed, I would lie quietly. The speed of a bullet for me personally is preferable to its mass. Mass is needed for ballistics. And for defeat - speed. Even if it doesn’t go according to plan, 20 rounds in the gun will be enough to stop even a frostbitten drug addict. We must try to shoot at the place. In place - anyone will fall. Those who train a lot in shooting will shoot shortly.
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 00: 24
                +1
                In terminal ballistics today, there is no concept of "bullet shock". The stopping effect is not at all a shock from pain - it is an absolutely not measurable quantity, because there are "substances", motivation, which either reduce the effect of shock or even completely neutralize it. A famous example is the US Philippine War against Moro drug addicts.

                It’s one thing if you shoot yourself in the foot. It will hurt and hurt you and you won’t be able to dance the waltz right away. It will stop you. Another thing is war, when the parties hate each other or are really a drug addict under substances. Here, one bullet may not stop.

                Only the penetration depth of the bullet and its destruction by vital organs works.

                The ability to shoot is good, but not the only necessary. Shooting paper targets is one thing. Cold-blooded shooting at the place of a criminal who does not stand still, but tries to stick a knife into your belly or shoots in your direction - is completely different.

                I am sure that in a situation of self-defense with weapons against an armed opponent, the firing squad will have a pale appearance (in the morgue), because in addition to the ability to shoot at a place, psychological preparation is also needed. And this is very individual. Someone is more cowardly than another, and statistically there are fewer heroes than just not heroes.
                1. Major_Vortex
                  Major_Vortex 30 March 2019 01: 04
                  0
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  In terminal ballistics today, there is no concept of "bullet shock". The stopping effect is not at all a shock from pain - it is an absolutely not measurable quantity, because there are "substances", motivation, which either reduce the effect of shock or even completely neutralize it.

                  A person gets worse when a quick bullet flies into the body. And this is such a bad thing that you can’t quickly move away from it. And inside there is also a melon, which does not allow to move away. There will definitely not be any motivation to fight. Do not even think about motivation. Quite other subconscious attitudes work. Even if you remain conscious. After a low-speed bullet, you’ll still leave if you don’t touch anything and break it. Because low speed just makes a neat hole in the body. And high-speed bullets are shocking. But the shock is not a fright, but a deeper one. I do not know how to describe it. Many write about shock who describe the action of a high-speed bullet. On the hunt, there is also game, which does not respond to shock, like some thick-skinned herbivores, and there is game, which is more difficult to overwhelm with a blank than a high-speed bullet, after which a seasoned predator simply collapses to the ground, or gradually descends.
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  Only the penetration depth of the bullet and its destruction by vital organs works.

                  For the depth of penetration, the mass and speed of the bullet are needed. Too light a bullet will cause superficial injury. The defeat of vital organs is just the ability to shoot at a place and the knowledge of such places.
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  The ability to shoot is good, but not the only necessary. Shooting paper targets is one thing. Cold-blooded shooting at the place of a criminal who does not stand still, but tries to stick a knife into your belly or shoots in your direction - is completely different.

                  The ability to shoot just helps to make a quick and accurate shot. And if necessary, then not one. Something you are talking today. Do you advocate shooting training in a psychologist’s office, on a couch? laughing
                  1. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 00: 52
                    0
                    You, comrade, love to turn everything upside down.

                    SOPHISM

                    Formally seeming correct, but essentially false inference, based on intentionally incorrect selection of initial positions.
              2. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 00: 40
                +1
                Even if it doesn’t go according to plan, 20 rounds in the gun will be enough to stop even a frostbitten drug addict.


                20 patrogs in the gun - this is very good. Glock 17 with a magazine for 17 + 2 rounds and one in the barrel.

                But if the distance of 3-5 meters and the first two bullets do not stop the armed drug addict, then you may not have the opportunity to shoot the remaining bullets if the mortally wounded drug addict does not immediately fall in place (stopping action), but he also gets to your body with a knife or just have time to shoot once and hit you. One such hit will be enough for you not just to be upset.

                Therefore, it is so important to shoot the caliber that will provide the motivated guy with substances with instant blackout.

                There are calibers that have been doing this successfully for over a hundred years. Checked by time.

                laughing
                1. Major_Vortex
                  Major_Vortex 30 March 2019 01: 37
                  -1
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  20 patrogs in the gun - this is very good. Glock 17 with a magazine for 17 + 2 rounds and one in the barrel.

                  And for a pump-action shotgun - this is only 2 shots with buckshot. And if this flies into the chest, then not only the addict grunts, but the Hulk laughing
                  1. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 00: 32
                    0
                    Just do not always have a pump-action shotgun at hand.
                    Not even that.
                    Typically, a pump-action shotgun is not available when it is needed.

                    Did I miss something? In Russia or Estonia, people openly carry loaded pump-action shotguns around the city?
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 29 March 2019 21: 38
    +2
    I never shot, but I believe in TT. Remembering the PM, I try to present the PMM ... At the PM and so the handle is thick, where else? ...
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 23: 14
      +1
      The handle is thick in Paraordnance with a two-row .45 ACP store.

      Makarov is flat. TT flat pot shutter. What does it give? For shooting - no good. There should be a thickness in the handle, but here each palm has different fingers and the length of the fingers too.
      1. Shopping Mall
        30 March 2019 12: 20
        +1
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        The handle is thick in Paraordnance with a two-row .45 ACP store.

        Makarov is flat. TT flat pot shutter. What does it give? For shooting - no good. There should be a thickness in the handle, but here each palm has different fingers and the length of the fingers too.


        TT is quite convenient for carrying and shooting. The shutter is thin, and the handle is moderately wide, very pleasant to hold.

        But it is more comfortable to wear under the belt, under the shirt. Again, a narrow shutter does not cause discomfort, and a wide handle does not allow to fail. You get so used to it that sometimes there is a feeling - lost! checked - on the spot. Only corrosion can start from sweat and it is forbidden now ...
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 00: 35
          0
          But it is more comfortable to wear under the belt, under the shirt.


          Very funny. That is, just I was not amused when in the cafe I have so a revolver because of the belt through the leg fell out. Well, there were few people, but I think the cameras were fixed.

          Since then bought various holsters. Different. From vnutripoyasnyh for the described you wear to external and bags-holsters, opening pulling the sling.
          1. Shopping Mall
            31 March 2019 12: 38
            0
            Quote: Horse, people and soul
            But it is more comfortable to wear under the belt, under the shirt.


            Very funny. That is, just I was not amused when in the cafe I have so a revolver because of the belt through the leg fell out. Well, there were few people, but I think the cameras were fixed.

            Since then bought various holsters. Different. From vnutripoyasnyh for the described you wear to external and bags-holsters, opening pulling the sling.


            Then there were none, and if something was taken from the old one, then a huge bandura on a belt with clasps was obtained.
  • Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 29 March 2019 22: 00
    +1
    The author writes about the "Orthodox"smile pistols, and the plates were brought by "foreign" cartridges.
    A good selection of statistics on the use of TT and PM
    http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bp001/bp01raz/02raz/bp002.htm
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 23: 16
      0
      These tablets are pulled a little over the ears. That is, statistics are not representative.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 00: 07
        +1
        I will explain. There is such a site - Roma rating, from 1 to 10. There are different ones from cheap to expensive. People buy rum and leave a rating. Some Roma bought, tried and appreciated by 1000-2000 people, some by 5-10 people. Can this be compared? IMHO, it is impossible. A sample of 1000-2000 people who rated rum at 8 points is more likely closer to the truth than a sample of 10 people who rated rum at 10 points. Maybe these 10 people are all relatives of the rum producer?

        So in the tables on injuries. Most records are 9x19+, but some records have 400 calibers (.25 caliber).

        Can they be compared? It is possible if all records for different calibers have the same number, then it will be possible to compare their effect.

        In reality, part of the records for some calibers does not exceed the possible statistical error.
    2. Simargl
      Simargl 30 March 2019 01: 36
      0
      Quote: BORMAN82
      The author writes about "Orthodox" pistols, and brought the plates on "foreign" cartridges.
      The .380 ACP is roughly the same as the "old" 9x18.
      .380 ACP is slightly weaker.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 00: 39
        +1
        Today, self-defense .380 is more mediocre than the Soviet issue of 9 Makarov.
    3. Shopping Mall
      30 March 2019 12: 24
      0
      Quote: BORMAN82
      The author writes about the "Orthodox"smile pistols, and the plates were brought by "foreign" cartridges.
      A good selection of statistics on the use of TT and PM
      http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bp001/bp01raz/02raz/bp002.htm


      Thanks, interesting stuff. And the conclusions contradict the generally accepted information (which is higher in the PM than in the TT).

      Analyzing the data obtained, it can be concluded that in terms of their stopping or damaging effect of a bullet, 9-mm cartridges for a pistol PM are inferior to bullets 7,62-mm cartridges for a TT pistol.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 30 March 2019 15: 13
        0
        Andrey, thanks for the article and, of course, a big plus. hi I'd love more details and factual material. Do not stop only on pistols and on our weapons in general. Successes. drinks
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 01: 16
        +1
        http://www.sinopa.ee/sor/bp001/bp01raz/02raz/bp002.htm


        I'm not sure this article can be trusted.

        There is an x-ray of the skull with bullets inside. It is written that these are 9 mm bullets. I saw this picture before somewhere on another resource. Lead revolver bullets there .38 Special version Wadcatter. Sport cartridges with half the energy. I shot these Wadcatter bullets at the firing range at old tires. A bullet pierced the tire and remained lying inside. Exactly like with the skull on the x-ray in this article. Apparently, the patient at that time was alive. X-rays are not made dead - an autopsy is done by a pathologist.

        Very weak ammo, these sports .38 Special Wadcatter, but ...

        I have a .357 Magnum Wadcatter, also with a lead bullet, but from a carbide lead. They are charged at half power from a full-fledged .357 Magnum, which corresponds to a full-fledged .38 Special. These cartridges work very well, judging by what they do with a five-liter canister of water and with watermelons, which I punished for being not sweet. When he wore a revolver for self-defense, those same .357 Magnum Wadkatter were in the drum, and in the speedloder they were half-shell .38 Special + P.
  • Neogumanoyd
    Neogumanoyd 29 March 2019 22: 50
    0
    Excuse me, but it’s time for PM to leave the armed forces for the police, it’s the place for it ... Reliable, unpretentious, relatively compact, inexpensive (there are enough reserves for 100 years), it’s convenient to disassemble and clean - everything is fine, even getting out of it wherever possible, but not far and with an unguaranteed result .... For the army, it is rather weak ...
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 29 March 2019 23: 20
      +2
      but it’s time for PM to leave the armed forces for the police,


      He has a place in the museum, next to the TT, S-96 Mauser and Nagan.
      Honored Veteran.

      The police need modern weapons so as not to say "Work, brothers" into the terrorist's camera.
      1. Andrey VOV
        Andrey VOV 30 March 2019 12: 24
        0
        I have a service weapon, namely pm in the 90s was 62 years old ..... I had to disperse hooligans a couple of times from it, applied it once as expected and apparently still accidentally hit the buttock who was running away, probably 25 meters, and , shooting gallery, but on banks .... I like the automatic machine more)))
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 31 March 2019 03: 10
          0
          Here, some commentators discussed the idea of ​​whether the PM is suitable or not suitable for the police.

          If you shoot an unarmed and running away (demoralized, scared) criminal in the buttock - then why not? And what will always be so?

          And if the criminal is armed, motivated and on substances? It is unlikely that the 300 Joule PM cartridge will do such a job, if in the USA the usual 9x19 and .45 ACP jacketed bullets of twice as powerful cartridges are considered insufficient for instant blackout and one has to use "hunting" expansions.
          1. Andrey VOV
            Andrey VOV 31 March 2019 10: 54
            0
            For the police .... yes, too, hemorrhoids, if according to the charter, get out of the holster, remove from the fuse, distort, shout, up ....... until all these manipulations have already been shot or run off twenty times, but I shot when trying to escape on withdrawal
  • E.S.
    E.S. 30 March 2019 00: 38
    +2
    Why are pistols "so-so" in the Red Army?
    Just because the real combat capability of the Red Army will not change if, instead of the TT or PM, the muzzle-loading pistol of the mid-19th century is adopted.
    Pestle is a mischief for the glamorous rear, if you need to fight, then the best gun is called a Kalashnikov rifle
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 30 March 2019 01: 41
      +2
      The Americans have the main weapon is not so reliable and they carry a pistol as a spare weapon and learn to quickly switch from machine to gun and from pistol back to machine.

      Any Soviet / Russian Kalash, of course, is more reliable than NATO assault rifles, but Kalash sometimes fails, wedges happen that cannot be removed quickly. In an urban area or a village, a battle at any time can go to a nearby and jammed machine gun - this is guaranteed "sending canned food home." And, here, the pistol in such a situation gives a chance to return home on their own two feet.

      No one forces Americans to carry a gun in addition to the main weapon. They just want to live and do it themselves.

      A pistol as a backup weapon gives equal additional chances to both Americans and us.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 30 March 2019 16: 03
        +1
        The M1911 pistol, along with a holster and spare shops, is 2 kg of weight. I'd rather take three grenades than carry unnecessary crap on me. I have a rifle in my hands, a submachine gun or an automatic machine, so I’ll use them, not a pistol, which is useless in real combat.
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 30 March 2019 19: 29
        +1
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub

        No one forces Americans to carry a gun in addition to the main weapon. They just want to live and do it themselves.


        Good evening, man! hi

        That's right, and the truth is so simple that some people stubbornly cannot understand it. And it would seem that everything lies on the surface. Well, what can you expect if adults still continue to call the short trunk - "pestle". request
        PS SchA he quietly slaps me another minus. laughing
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 30 March 2019 15: 08
      0
      "Pistil, stamen" ... are you fond of botany? Or can't you get rid of the slang from your happy childhood?
      And in the middle of the 19th century there were already muzzle-loading (Peperbox) and "drum-loading" revolvers, so choose something from the 17th - 18th century to arm the Red Army, although even then they began to play around with revolvers.
      As for the best pistol called "Kalashnikov assault rifle", then re-read what was written above. hi
  • YOUR
    YOUR 30 March 2019 03: 34
    +1
    So that they do not write and do not speak, and in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation the main gun remains the PM. Either they cannot make a normal replacement pistol, or they don’t want to.
    But if you figure it out for the army, a pistol is a status thing an indicator of belonging to a certain layer, to command. In the real battle is not very necessary. I read the memoirs of some VDVshnikov, he says so directly during his participation in the b / d never touched the pistol.
    Pistols are necessary for specialists, for those who work in short circuits. And not those who are in armored personnel carriers, but in the BMP rides.
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 30 March 2019 18: 34
      +1
      Quote: YOUR
      So that they do not write and do not speak, and in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation the main gun remains the PM. Either they cannot make a normal replacement pistol, or they don’t want to.
      But if you figure it out for the army, a pistol is a status thing an indicator of belonging to a certain layer, to command. In the real battle is not very necessary. I read the memoirs of some VDVshnikov, he says so directly during his participation in the b / d never touched the pistol.
      Pistols are necessary for specialists, for those who work in short circuits. And not those who are in armored personnel carriers, but in the BMP rides.

      In my time in the Special Forces (I'm talking about the army) there were PM, PB, APS, APB. I don’t remember that someone was not satisfied with something. I myself have never used the case, but my colleagues who came from the 40th Army did not express any negativity. A comrade who was "on business" in Yugoslavia generally said that PM would suit me more at that moment. And he - from "Vympel", if it says something.
      1. Shopping Mall
        31 March 2019 11: 46
        -1
        Quote: Doliva63
        Quote: YOUR
        So that they do not write and do not speak, and in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation the main gun remains the PM. Either they cannot make a normal replacement pistol, or they don’t want to.
        But if you figure it out for the army, a pistol is a status thing an indicator of belonging to a certain layer, to command. In the real battle is not very necessary. I read the memoirs of some VDVshnikov, he says so directly during his participation in the b / d never touched the pistol.
        Pistols are necessary for specialists, for those who work in short circuits. And not those who are in armored personnel carriers, but in the BMP rides.

        In my time in the Special Forces (I'm talking about the army) there were PM, PB, APS, APB. I don’t remember that someone was not satisfied with something. I myself have never used the case, but my colleagues who came from the 40th Army did not express any negativity. A comrade who was "on business" in Yugoslavia generally said that PM would suit me more at that moment. And he - from "Vympel", if it says something.


        It happens. Sometimes a person traveled all his life to a VAZ 2107, 2106, Volga, and everything made 0 great cars. And then I bought a Toyota or Audi, and that’s it, you can't drive it into the VAZ by force.
        1. Doliva63
          Doliva63 31 March 2019 19: 58
          0
          Quote: AVM
          Quote: Doliva63
          Quote: YOUR
          So that they do not write and do not speak, and in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation the main gun remains the PM. Either they cannot make a normal replacement pistol, or they don’t want to.
          But if you figure it out for the army, a pistol is a status thing an indicator of belonging to a certain layer, to command. In the real battle is not very necessary. I read the memoirs of some VDVshnikov, he says so directly during his participation in the b / d never touched the pistol.
          Pistols are necessary for specialists, for those who work in short circuits. And not those who are in armored personnel carriers, but in the BMP rides.

          In my time in the Special Forces (I'm talking about the army) there were PM, PB, APS, APB. I don’t remember that someone was not satisfied with something. I myself have never used the case, but my colleagues who came from the 40th Army did not express any negativity. A comrade who was "on business" in Yugoslavia generally said that PM would suit me more at that moment. And he - from "Vympel", if it says something.


          It happens. Sometimes a person traveled all his life to a VAZ 2107, 2106, Volga, and everything made 0 great cars. And then I bought a Toyota or Audi, and that’s it, you can't drive it into the VAZ by force.

          Are we speaking different languages?
          A pistol in the army is a personal weapon. That is, not even secondary. And the one that does not bother you. Why the heck for that Colt or Glock? Compact and lightweight PM - that's it! And my "toyta" is a machine gun. Or a machine gun. Or RPG. As it happens according to the circumstances. And if someone is killed or shot at point-blank range, PM will be enough.
  • dmitry21
    dmitry21 30 March 2019 12: 09
    0
    Andrew,
    if possible in the next article in more detail about GSH18.
    really like this unit. Initial information gathered from M. Popenker, the first time I saw him at 2008 at the exhibition, I could not hold it in my hands. but he shot from it last week, the comfort of shooting head and shoulders above the PM (I do not want to offend Makarov’s apologists), despite the lower weight and unusual kinematics of the trigger movement.
    Thank you in advance.
    1. Shopping Mall
      31 March 2019 11: 46
      0
      Quote: dmitry21
      Andrew,
      if possible in the next article in more detail about GSH18.
      really like this unit. Initial information gathered from M. Popenker, the first time I saw him at 2008 at the exhibition, I could not hold it in my hands. but he shot from it last week, the comfort of shooting head and shoulders above the PM (I do not want to offend Makarov’s apologists), despite the lower weight and unusual kinematics of the trigger movement.
      Thank you in advance.


      Yes, I will write about him.
  • Doliva63
    Doliva63 30 March 2019 18: 18
    +1
    Article amateur amateur. Author served in the army?
    1. Shopping Mall
      31 March 2019 11: 44
      +1
      Quote: Doliva63
      Article amateur amateur. Author served in the army?


      Write a professional article, who's in the way?
      Already in the army, then we have a lot of specialists in pistols, who in the year of 10 shoot cartridges from the PM.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 31 March 2019 20: 24
        0
        Quote: AVM
        Quote: Doliva63
        Article amateur amateur. Author served in the army?


        Write a professional article, who's in the way?
        Already in the army, then we have a lot of specialists in pistols, who in the year of 10 shoot cartridges from the PM.

        This is where how. Of 3 of us platoons, 1 was a master of sports, and 2 - the CCM for high-speed shooting. Fighters scouts had ranks. 10 rounds of PM do not shoot - I'm talking about training firing. I would write, but I see no reason or topic. A gun is generally not needed in the army, but - what if? PM is sufficient.
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 30 March 2019 23: 52
    -1
    What does not suit "Gyurza" as an army pistol? To rethink fuses and fully combat-ready weapons. The ammunition is strong. A submachine gun under it in the army will also take root.
    1. Shopping Mall
      31 March 2019 11: 43
      0
      Quote: garri-lin
      What does not suit "Gyurza" as an army pistol? To rethink fuses and fully combat-ready weapons. The ammunition is strong. A submachine gun under it in the army will also take root.


      Bulky, uncomfortable. Now he has already made a replacement, I will write in the following material.
  • delet
    delet 31 March 2019 08: 33
    0
    Nice, interesting article. I am interested in this question. And all these design bureaus developed pistols at their own peril and risk, without those. Tasks? The calibers are different, the cartridges are different. Somehow not so little. And I want to add. PM began to "fly" after the arrival of the first batch of PPO-type cartridges. The frames began to crack in the area of ​​the handle, such as the sear pins and burst. K sometimes all together. About GSh .... another headache was. They did it, but b / c ... only b / c and on training practice like "let's go nafig" .... About spare parts, generally keep quiet. Somehow it was like that.
    1. Shopping Mall
      31 March 2019 11: 41
      0
      It was TK for R & D Grach, Berdysh, Grach, GSH-18 and some others
      OTs-23 like TK from the Ministry of Internal Affairs was, OTs-21, OTs-33 Pernach is possible that in a proactive manner, and maybe not.
      The scheme may be such that the enterprise itself does the TZ, then it goes to the potential customer, it coordinates. Development at its own expense, because for a gun it is not expensive, and maybe they will throw something. Order no one guarantees.
  • ANDREYUSA
    ANDREYUSA April 1 2019 21: 00
    0
    multifunctional holster with advanced features https://vimeo.com/321834517 I suggest considering http://bagate.space/ andre[email protected]
  • czes
    czes April 2 2019 19: 59
    +1
    Quote: AVM
    There is no sadder story in the world than the story of a Russian pistol.

    Exhaustive! Respect to the author! You can not read further. Woz will remain standing where he stood until a civilian market appears.
  • VictorZhivilov
    VictorZhivilov April 8 2019 08: 27
    0
    [quote] In fact, the whole history of the army pistol in the USSR is a transition from a revolver of the Nagan system to a TT pistol (Tula Tokarev) and from TT to a Makarov pistol. At the same time, during some transitional period, these weapons were operated (and in some places are now in operation) at the same time. [/ Quote]
    Rather, here you have to talk about the transition from one ammunition to another ammunition. And as a consequence of this from a revolver to a gun. And, for some reason, they forgot to mention the 25ACP and as a result forgot about the Korovin Pistol (Tula Korovin).
    [quote] In the USSR, serial production of an identical 6,35 mm pistol cartridge (GAU index - 57-H-112) was started in 1934 at cartridge factory No. 3 named after Volodarsky in Ulyanovsk (part of the Patrubvzryv trust). The cartridges were made for the TK pistol and 6,35-mm pistols of foreign manufacture in service. Cartridge production continued until the start of World War II. The closure was marked as “Browning Cartridges”. Source: https://smallarms.ru/carticle?ammo=25acp[/quote]
    By the way, a very interesting story is the appearance of the revolver of the Nagan system.
    [quote] At the end of the 1891th century, the Russian Empire began the massive rearmament of its army. As the main model of small arms was chosen "Three-line rifle model 4,2." The standard revolver was the model of the 10,67-linear (1880 mm) Smith-Wesson III revolver of the XNUMX model, which was morally obsolete by then. The Commission was involved in the search for promising models to develop a small-caliber rifle led by Lieutenant General N. G. Chagin. Source: https://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/revolvers/russia/nagan/[quote]
    Like the Smith and Wesson revolvers.
    [quote] In the early 1870s, General Alexander Gorlov, who worked at the Embassy of the Russian Empire in the USA, contacted Smith-Wesson with a request to organize a large supply of revolvers for the Russian army. Thus began the history of the cartridge .44 Smith-Wesson Russian. Source: https://zen.yandex.ru/media/ammo/44-smitvesson-russkii-patron-kotoryi-izmenil-revolvery--5b975dbe4e008900ad8d2a51[/quote]

    PS
    There were times ... After all, there were ...
  • ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 8 May 2019 22: 44
    -1
    Quote: czes
    Quote: AVM
    There is no sadder story in the world than the story of a Russian pistol.

    Exhaustive! Respect to the author! You can not read further. Woz will remain standing where he stood until a civilian market appears.

    The civilian market of the COP is very necessary, without it there will be no jerk in adopting a good pistol.