Military Review

Army gun in the USA. Part of 1

61
For more than half a century, the main gun of the US Armed Forces has been the classic model - Colt M1911A1, caliber 11,43 mm (cartridge .45 ACP) designed by John Moses Browning. This gun was in the United States so widespread that it can be considered one of the symbols of America. Pistol Colt M1911 survived two world wars, the war in Korea and Vietnam and many other local conflicts.


One of the advantages of the Colt M1911 pistol is the high stopping power of the .45 ACP cartridge. Even in our time, despite the huge number of more modern models, pistols such as Colt M1911, produced by various manufacturers, are in great demand and are used for self-defense and practical shooting.


Classic Colt M1911 A1 US Army


Performance characteristics gun M1911 A1:
Trigger mechanism (USM): Single action.
Fuse: automatic, turns off when hand grasping the handle, non-automatic on the frame.
Caliber: .45 ACP (11,43mm).
Magazine capacity: 7 cartridges.
Overall length: 216 mm.
Barrel length: 127 mm.
Weight: 1075 gr.



The scheme of the gun M1911 A1

However, in the second half of the 1911th century, the Colt M1978 ceased to meet modern requirements. It uses a single action mechanism that does not allow self-cocking firing and a small number of cartridges in a single-row magazine. In this regard, the US armed forces in 1911 began work on the selection of a new pistol to replace the Colt M15 pistol and the Smith & Wesson M.XNUMX revolver.

Another reason for replacing the Colt M1911 pistols was the standardization of the 9x19 cartridge as a single NATO-unit pistol cartridge (M882 cartridge).

Just as in Russia many oppose the replacement of a Makarov pistol in the army, considering that its characteristics fully satisfy the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, so in the United States there were a huge number of opponents of the new army pistol. Rejection caused and an invitation to participate in the competition of foreign manufacturers weapons.

Nevertheless, both American and European companies were invited to the competition, which took place in 1978-1980. From 25 samples of pistols from different companies were selected - Smith & Wesson (USA) with pistols model 459 and 459A, Cold Industries with SSP pistol, Beretta USA Corp. with an M-92 pistol, Fabrigue Nationale with FN HP and BDA 9 pistols and Heckler und Koch (HK) with P9S, VP70 pistols and PSP automatic pistol.

In case of victory of European manufacturers, they had to organize production in the United States.


Clockwise from top left image - Smith & Wesson Model 459, Colt SSP, FN HP, and FN BDA 9 (images may not scale exactly)



Clockwise starting from the top left image - Beretta М-92, НK P9S, НK PSP and НK VP70 (images may not coincide in scale)


Pistols provided for the competition of the US Army Pistol by Heckler und Koch had a rather original design.

The NK P9S pistol used semi-free shutter and braking automatics using a pair of rollers like the G3 rifle. The HK VP 7 pistol was built on the plastic frame, advanced for its time, according to the automatics scheme with a free gate, rarely used in pistols for a powerful cartridge. Udarnikovy USM cocked by pressing the trigger before each shot, which increases the effort and reduces the accuracy of shooting.

And in the gun HK PSP (P7) used automation with a semi-free gate and the braking powder gases, discharged from the barrel. Udarnikovy USM pistol PSP is equipped with a cocking lever located in front of the handle of the weapon. With the girth of the handle lever moves back, cocking the spring of the drummer, when you release the lever, the drummer is removed from the cocking.


The scheme of the gun HK PSP

In general, one can note the desire of Heckler und Koch for non-standard solutions. The pistols Smith & Wesson, Cold Industries, Fabrigue Nationale and Beretta had a classic design, however, according to the test results, none of the pistols showed the necessary characteristics, primarily in terms of reliability in difficult conditions.

Based on this, in 1981, a new competition was announced, for which pistols were allowed, which showed the best result in previous tests. All applicants for the role of the US Army pistol had to use the cartridge 9х19, self-cocking trigger and stores of increased capacity.

The second competition considered pistols Smith & Wesson model 459, Beretta M-92SB, Browning BDA-9P, Heckler und Koch P7A13 (modernized PSP / P7) and SIG-Sauer P 226. The final was again the Beretta M-92SB pistol, but in the end neither he nor the other contenders again completely satisfied the military.

In addition, the US Congress put pressure on the military because of the considerable financial resources required for rearmament. The manufacturer of the original "Colts" - the company Coolt Mfg Inc offered a cheap alternative, consisting in the repair and modernization of all 418 000 pistol M1911А1 pistols in the 9XXNNXX caliber. In fact, most of the pistol was changing - trunk, bolt, magazine, ejector, reflector, shutter stop. However, the audit showed that over 19% of Colt pistols M40А1911 are in such a worn condition that their modernization is impractical, and therefore the decision to switch to a new pistol was finally made.

The third stage of competitive tests was promptly conducted by the US Army from April to September 1984. Two guns withstood the tests - the upgraded Beretta M-92F and SIG-Sauer P 226. Ultimately, according to official data, the lower cost of the Béretta M-92F pistol inclined the choice of the military in favor of this pistol, and in January 1985 was officially announced the adoption of the Béretta M-92F pistol as a standard personal weapon for all branches of the US military under index M.9. At the first stage, an order for 377 965 pistols was formed.


Finalists of the US Army Pistol Contest - SIG-Sauer P 226 and Beretta M92F


However, in 1987, the contract with Beretta USA Corp. was suspended after several accidents when several shooters were injured as a result of the destruction of the bolt. By this time, the order of 140 000 pistols had already been released. Beretta USA Corp. explained the breakage of valves with the simplification of manufacturing technology for mass production, and recommended changing the valve after 3000 shots, which of course did not suit the US Army.

The Beretta pistol incidents gave Smith & Wesson a reason to request an additional tender. Re-tests were carried out in August 1988. Smith & Wesson participated with an upgraded M.459 pistol, SIG-Sauer with a P 226 pistol with improved bolt guides, and Beretta USA Corp. introduced the M92FS pistol with a modified bolt. The new player was Sturm Ruger & Co with the P-85 pistol.


Pistol Sturm Ruger & Co P-85


According to the test results, all competing samples were again rejected, and with Beretta USA Corp. A new contract was concluded for the supply of 500 000 M. 9 pistols in addition to the previously acquired ones.


US Army Beretta M.9 Pistol (Beretta M92FS)


Tactical and technical characteristics of the gun Beretta M.9:
Trigger mechanism (USM): Dual action.
Fuse: non-automatic two-way on the casing of the bolt.
Caliber: 9x19 Para.
Magazine capacity: 15 cartridges.
Overall length: 217 mm.
Barrel length: 125 mm.
Weight: 1000 gr.



Beretta M.9 pistol operation scheme (Beretta M92FS)

After the final adoption of the Beretta M. 9 pistols, the issue of an army pistol was removed from the agenda in the US Army for a long time.

For more than twenty years of service, the Beretta M. 9 pistols, as part of the outfits of the US military, have probably visited all the hot spots of the planet. During this time, when operating in different climatic conditions, guns Beretta M.9 proved to be reliable and high-quality weapons.

In 1989, the selection of a new pistol for its specific needs was preoccupied by the US Special Operations Command (SOCOM). They were not satisfied with the stopping effect of the 9 mm cartridge, preference was given to the .45 ACP caliber previously used by the US Army. Perhaps the 45 caliber turned out to be more preferable given the need for frequent use of weapons with a silencer. Significantly reduce the volume of the shot can only be provided that the firing is subsonic ammunition. In this case, the large mass of the 11,43 caliber bullet makes it possible to ensure a sufficiently high damaging ability of the weapon-cartridge complex, when using a silencer and the subsonic speed of the bullet.

At the competition for a promising pistol for special operations forces (MTR), only two options were considered - an upgraded pistol based on the classic model Colt M1911 and a new pistol from the German company Heckler und Koch based on the HP USP model. The competition was officially launched in 1991, and in 1996, Heckler und Koch has already started the supply of a CCO pistol with the official designation Mark 23 Model 0 US SOCOM Pistol.



Pistol Mark 23 Model 0 US SOCOM


Pistol Mark 23 Model 0 US SOCOM is a complex that includes in addition to the actual pistol, another silencer and aiming block. The aiming unit consists of a built-in tactical flashlight and two laser designators, one of which operates in the visible range, and the other in the infrared spectrum, for use with a night vision device.

The Mark 23 pistol is based on the HK USP pistol. The frame of the pistol is polymer, the shutter casing is made of chrome-molybdenum steel, which is then treated with nitriding and oxidation to protect against corrosion. The frame of the gun and controls are optimized to allow shooting with gloves.

12 ammunition caliber 11,43 mm is placed in the double row magazine. A pistol can fire bullets with increased charge. USM of the hammer type, double action, with the descent force with the pre-cocked trigger 2 kg, in the mode of the self-pickup 5,5 kg. There is a double-sided flag fuse having two on / off positions. In front of the safety device, on the left side of the frame, there is a lever for safe trigger release from a combat platoon.

Resource gun Mark 23 is 30 000 shots. The length of the gun 245 mm, width 39 mm, height 150 mm, weight without cartridges 1100 gr. The Mark 23 pistol turned out to be very large and rather heavy, which is why many fighters, if they have a choice, prefer the less powerful HP USP Tactical pistol.


HP USP Tactical Pistol



HP USP Pistol Job Chart

Thus, according to the results of the long-term selection, the US armed forces, in the period from 1988 to 1996, received at their disposal both the main army pistol and the gun for special forces.

You can pay attention to the fact that approximately the same practice has developed in the Russian armed forces, where the Yarygin pistol was adopted for the army, and the special forces actually chose Serdyukov's self-loading pistol “Gyurza” for a more powerful cartridge. However, if in the USA the emphasis is on stopping action, then in Russia they prefer enhanced armor penetration.

The process of selecting an army pistol by the US Army stretched out for 10 years, while the SSO met the 5 years and held a competition without unnecessary scandals and delays. In the next article, we will look at the procedure for selecting a new army pistol in the United States and the current status of this issue.
Author:
Photos used:
modernfirearms.net, warhead.su, armoury-online.ru, topwar.ru
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  1. andrewkor
    andrewkor April 10 2019 18: 17
    +2
    I remember that Colt filed a lawsuit against the adoption of Beretta in the US Army.
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 April 10 2019 18: 43
      +4
      Quote: andrewkor
      I remember that Colt filed a lawsuit against taking Beretta into service

      There (according to rumors), a rather muddy story. According to the results of the contest, the impression is that Beretta gave corny more money.
      What, you, what a bribe. In America, this is called lobbying, the main thing is to pay taxes - and everything is legal.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 21: 31
        +3
        Bereta won the competition because she offered cheaper spare parts and accessories required by the competition than Sig.
      2. YOUR
        YOUR April 11 2019 04: 01
        +2
        Colt declared himself bankrupt back in 1994, when the current owner, Zilkha financial group, bought it (in addition to weapons, it produces biomass in Texas). Then something similar happened in 2012, then in 2015. But somehow, they are still getting out just because of the Colt brand. Over the past 20 years, they had only one order for the production of M4. They have debts of about 500 million dollars.
        Quote: psiho117
        I remember that Colt filed a lawsuit against taking Beretta into service

        No more than rumors. There was no such thing.
        And in the US Army, if the Colt 1911 was withdrawn from service, then the military is allowed to use it anyway.
        By and large, the gun in the army is a status thing. Shows belonging to a specific layer. In real combat it is used extremely rarely. The weapon of specialists is another matter. Maybe this is why our army is not in a hurry to switch to new calibers, new cartridges 9 * 19 or 9 * 21, and all the good old PM which is not even PMM.
  2. Major_Vortex
    Major_Vortex April 10 2019 18: 27
    0
    The Browning pistol Colt M1911 is a long-liver, it has been in service in the US Army since the beginning of the 20th century and is still partially used by the military. After him was Beretta 92 (M9) - also a hefty pistol, but already chambered for 9mm. Partially the army also purchased Sigi (P226). In the civilian market and among the police, meanwhile, the Austrian Glock was gaining popularity. But at the last competition, the Glock designed specifically for the US Army (with a slightly improved design compared to the standard Glock design) lost the P320 Sigu. And the U.S. Army will now have a Sig P320 (M17).

    According to the article: pistols with slowing down the shutter by powder gases through the gas outlet have one significant drawback - part of the powder gases is not used to disperse the pistol bullet in the short barrel, but goes into the gas outlet when fired and is used to slow the shutter opening. Therefore, such pistols are weaker than the Browning scheme. They are found in the civilian market, where the speed of a bullet is not so important and a similar scheme allows you to realize your advantages in compact pistols for hidden carrying. A pistol with rollers, it is clear that will be inferior in reliability to the Browning system. HK from the article also has certain design flaws.
    1. Krilovchanin
      Krilovchanin April 10 2019 21: 07
      +3
      part of the powder gases is not used to disperse a pistol bullet in a short barrel, but goes into the gas outlet when fired and is used to slow the shutter opening. Therefore, such pistols are weaker than the Browning scheme

      Formally, you are, of course, right, since part of the energy is not spent on accelerating the projectile, then there is a shortage of speed. But, how significant is it? In the Kalashnikov assault rifle, due to the loss of energy for reloading, the shortage of the bullet speed is less than 3%, which is close to the error in the manufacture of cartridges. I suspect that with pistols, with their significantly shorter barrel, this figure will be even less, so talking about the weakness of the weapon with this scheme is somewhat incorrect. It has other disadvantages, in particular, increased pollution by combustion products.
      1. Major_Vortex
        Major_Vortex April 10 2019 21: 19
        -2
        Quote: Krilovchanin
        Formally, you are, of course, right, since part of the energy is not spent on accelerating the projectile, then there is a shortage of speed.

        This is a practical drawback of such pistols - the bullet accelerates less in the barrel.
        Quote: Krilovchanin
        In the Kalashnikov assault rifle due to loss of energy on recharge

        The Kalashnikov assault rifle is a different type of exhaust gas automation. The bullet in the Kalashnikov rifle first accelerates, and then the powder gases reach the gas outlet. In a pistol with a shutter shutter through the gas outlet, the gas outlet itself is located in the immediate vicinity of the chamber and gas extraction begins with the start of the bullet movement. Therefore, this type of self-loading automation is rare today.
        Quote: Krilovchanin
        It has other disadvantages, in particular, increased pollution by combustion products.

        More difficult to clean weapons compared to a traditional gun, because in addition to the barrel, you also have to clean the gas outlet of such a gun, which is located in a very dirty place - next to the chamber. Plus, the gas vent for this Huckler und Koch is located close to the trigger and the gun heats up quickly when firing in the immediate vicinity of the arrow pressing the trigger finger.
        1. Krilovchanin
          Krilovchanin April 10 2019 21: 32
          0
          In a pistol with a shutter shutter through the gas outlet, the gas outlet itself is located in the immediate vicinity of the chamber and gas extraction begins with the start of the bullet movement

          In this case, the amount of powder gases used to operate the automation matters: since the dependence of the bullet speed on pressure is a quadratic function, then the flow rate, for example (I, unfortunately, do not have exact numbers), 25% of the gas will lead to 5 -percent shortage of speed, which, in my opinion, is not so much. In addition, most of the energy of powder gases is not used, they (gases) simply do not have time to work out because of the short barrel length. Therefore, the shortage of speed will be minimal. As for the rest of the shortcomings you mentioned - I completely agree.
          1. Major_Vortex
            Major_Vortex April 10 2019 21: 39
            0
            Quote: Krilovchanin
            In this case, the amount of powder gases used to operate the automation matters.

            These pistols were tested in the 80s. Powder gases with the beginning of the movement of the bullet partially flew into the gas outlet - the bullet accelerated more slowly. This is not a gas vent AK and the like. The flue system had to be cleaned often, because it was located in a dirty place, and each time after training with a pistol in the shooting range, it was necessary to disassemble the pistol and clean everything there besides cleaning the pistol barrel itself, like a traditional pistol. More time is spent cleaning such a gun. About the quick heating of the frame above the trigger for this Huckler und Koch, I already wrote. The military rejected this gun. The police, he is also a rarity. Pistols of the Browning scheme are still more interesting and everyone is sitting on them.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 21: 35
      0
      part of the powder gases is not used to disperse a pistol bullet in a short barrel


      These pistols terribly overheat because of these very gases and are laden with coke.

      Those who used P7 Hacklers - they know.
  3. Mooh
    Mooh April 10 2019 19: 00
    +3
    So many troubles with the choice of a gun. No, like in RI - you want to get a gun (for America, probably sw) you do not want to buy it yourself, which is more like it. It’s easy with them, I went to the store and choose what you want.
  4. Yellow bubble
    Yellow bubble April 10 2019 19: 03
    +5
    I shot all the huts here from Yarygin, but I liked it.
    1. bunta
      bunta April 10 2019 20: 15
      +4
      Quote: Yellow bubble
      everyone is fucking up
      who didn't shoot
      1. Hauptsturmfuhrer
        Hauptsturmfuhrer April 10 2019 22: 21
        -5
        Yarygin is a good one, the suppliers have jerked - he needs the Lüger bullets, not the PM's, from Lügerovsky, he shoots without misfires, accurately and tightly. But, it is incorrect to compare it with Makarov - they did it for the operatives, wearing them in their pockets and the first shot through a pocket or sleeve
        1. Shopping Mall
          April 10 2019 23: 11
          +5
          Quote: Hauptsturmfuhrer
          Yarygin is a good one, the suppliers have jerked - he needs the Lüger bullets, not the PM's, from Lügerovsky, he shoots without misfires, accurately and tightly. But, it is incorrect to compare it with Makarov - they did it for the operatives, wearing them in their pockets and the first shot through a pocket or sleeve


          In the sense of? Yarygin under 9x19 made, what PM-ovskie ammunition? And if the quality speak, then in shooting galleries and Viking and Glock are fed the same - the usual Tula or Barnaul. Glock winces, but eats. Viking also eats, but sometimes chokes.

          Quote: Hauptsturmfuhrer
          But, it is incorrect to compare it with Makarov - they did it for the operatives, wearing them in their pockets and the first shot through a pocket or sleeve


          One shot and stuck shutter or overcharge. From a pocket only from a revolver, you can normally shoot, preferably with a hidden trigger.
          1. Hauptsturmfuhrer
            Hauptsturmfuhrer April 10 2019 23: 37
            -8
            Makara bullets are blunt. Luger's bullets are sharper. The rook is not sharpened for Makarovs, it shoots, but with misfires. I will not say the GRAU index for memory, but these are different cartridges of the same caliber. Shooting from a pocket - there are wedges from a piece of clothing. As for the rules and techniques of operational shooting in shitty situations, I can recommend the book by Alexei Potapov "rules and techniques of pistol shooting (SMERSH practice)". Helped me
            1. Shopping Mall
              April 11 2019 07: 30
              +4
              Quote: Hauptsturmfuhrer
              bullets makara stupid. luger bullets sharper. The rook is not sharpened on Makarov, shoots, but with misfires. I will not say the GRAU index for memory, but these are different cartridges of the same caliber.

              Cartridge 9X18 PM - Cartridge length, mm 24,8, Real bullet caliber, mm 9,27
              Cartridge 9x19 Luger - Cartridge Length, mm 29,69, Real Bullet Gauge, mm 9,01

              These cartridges are in principle non-interchangeable. It does not matter what bullet is in the cartridge of the PM, if the cartridge itself cannot be inserted into the PU in principle.
              1. Hauptsturmfuhrer
                Hauptsturmfuhrer April 11 2019 20: 12
                -4
                This is the army. In my hands Yarygin fired with pm cartridges, from 18 shots 2 sticks
                1. YOUR
                  YOUR April 12 2019 10: 39
                  +1
                  Cartridge 9 * 18 PM
                  The diameter of the bullet cartridge - 9,27 mm
                  The diameter of the barrel muzzle - 9.91 mm
                  The diameter of the base of the sleeve - 0.95 mm
                  Cartridge 9 * 19 Parabellum
                  The diameter of the bullet cartridge - 9,01 mm
                  The diameter of the barrel muzzle - 9.65 mm
                  The diameter of the base of the sleeve - 9.93 mm
                  Of course, you can hammer with a hammer without any problems. But how to shoot?
            2. swnvaleria
              swnvaleria April 11 2019 08: 28
              +2
              Yes, the Pmovskiy cartridge does not go in there; its diameter is larger
              1. Hauptsturmfuhrer
                Hauptsturmfuhrer April 11 2019 20: 24
                -4
                Yes true? I’ll go, I’ll wipe my eyes, I’ll see how I shot PM from the rook, which they gave, the more they fired
            3. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul April 11 2019 20: 03
              +2
              bullets makara stupid


              It’s good that only bullets are dumb ...
              1. Hauptsturmfuhrer
                Hauptsturmfuhrer April 11 2019 20: 15
                -1
                tell the head of the RAV service that he is a nerd, not Yarygin
          2. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 11 2019 19: 59
            0
            And if we say the quality, then in the shooting ranges and Viking and Glock feed the same way - the usual Tula or Barnaul. Glock winces, but eats. Viking also eats, but sometimes chokes.


            When did Glock frown from Barnaul? At the beginning, with Glock 17, I only shot Barnaul - not a single muzzle cartridge in the first 4 thousand of my pistol. These 4 thousand were all Barnaul cartridges. Only sparks from the barrel in a sheaf. In 2011, there were big discounts on Barnaul. As for cartridges with a brass sleeve they began to give big discounts, such that the wholesale price became less than the price of Barnaul - I don’t shoot Barnaul anymore. But if necessary, then without hesitation.

            True, our Barnaul is an export Barnaul.

            I will not say for Tula. Not with us.
          3. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 11 2019 20: 00
            0
            From a pocket only from a revolver you can normally shoot, preferably still with a hidden trigger.


            This is only if such an extreme is not afraid to shoot eggs with a breakthrough gas from .357 Magnum.
          4. YOUR
            YOUR April 12 2019 10: 40
            0
            Come on you. Well this is a youth, not so much by his comments you don’t see.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 21: 36
      -2
      You'd better watch "all the girls", try, than fall in love with the first one.

      hi
  5. senima56
    senima56 April 10 2019 19: 25
    +2
    Colt, Beretta, Smith & Wesson, SIG-Sauer, HK USP ..... have something to brag about! They didn't see our "Boa constrictor" - a hammer, but a shooting one!
    1. Shopping Mall
      April 10 2019 19: 47
      +8
      Quote: senima56
      Colt, Beretta, Smith & Wesson, SIG-Sauer, HK USP ..... have something to brag about! They didn't see our "Boa constrictor" - a hammer, but a shooting one!


      Boas have one problem. Nobody saw them, almost. For 10-20 experienced guns is difficult to understand what problems he may have. None of the tests will not reveal them. See how with the Beretta 92. It would seem that a serially produced pistol, but as soon as mass use began, the joint with the closures opened.

      PJ is a similar situation, I think. If the world Vikings break only in this way, then the army PT is hardly reliable. But now, when Viking-M was released, it is possible that the deficiencies were removed (of course, operation will show if this is true or not). And if the truth was removed, then perhaps he is the best army pistol for the Russian Federation, and not Lebedev's pistol.

      Perhaps the submarine is really good, I do not argue, I really like it visually, and it is possible to shoot from it. But to understand how suitable he is for supplying the army, you can only let him "walk" in shooting galleries for at least a year. The same is true for Boa. It can be made under 9x19 and certified as sports. In theory, the manufacturer should not miss the civilian market, this is logical, and if he is afraid, then there is something to hide, for example, that the model is crude.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 21: 40
        -1
        It is said that the Vikings and the PJ are two different guns in quality, but of the same design.

        That is why this flawed practice - to release an obviously degraded version of the weapon? The same Glock is always the same Glock. No castrated "civilian" version.
        1. Shopping Mall
          April 10 2019 21: 54
          0
          Quote: Horse, people and soul
          It is said that the Vikings and the PJ are two different guns in quality, but of the same design.

          That is why this flawed practice - to release an obviously degraded version of the weapon? The same Glock is always the same Glock. No castrated "civilian" version.


          If so, then this is even more ... But I strongly doubt it. Most likely there is only one production line, just the design and production at the time of the start of production were "raw".
        2. Mooh
          Mooh April 10 2019 21: 55
          -3
          They say that chickens are milked. He held both in his hands, did not find any visual differences in quality. Both are finished rudely, but the thing is solid. Your favorite glock in combat performance in the hands did not hold. I didn’t remember whether the gasman was holding a rubber shooter, it was made much shakier, and unlike PU, it was scary to hammer in the nail.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 22: 02
            +2
            Your favorite glock in combat


            There is no "combat execution of the Glock". There's just a Glock. What department needs - then it loads its cartridges into it. Military - armor-piercing. Police officers are expansive (in countries where it is not prohibited), self-defenders are half-shell, athletes are whole-shell.

            PJ accepts military acceptance. Viking doesn’t look at the military reception.

            In their hands they can look more or less the same. But the quality (due to military acceptance) is higher for PY.
          2. Shopping Mall
            April 10 2019 22: 03
            +4
            Quote: MooH
            They say that chickens are milked. He held both in his hands, did not find any visual differences in quality. Both are finished rudely, but the thing is solid. Your favorite glock in combat performance in the hands did not hold. I didn’t remember whether the gasman was holding a rubber shooter, it was made much shakier, and unlike PU, it was scary to hammer in the nail.


            There are no gas workers, no injuries of the Glock, there are Turkish and Chinese crafts from pressed Mr.
            1. Mooh
              Mooh April 11 2019 00: 03
              0

              There is no "combat execution of the Glock". There's just a Glock.

              No gas workers or Glock injuries

              Maybe. I am in these glocks with zig-zags with no teeth. Therefore, he made a reservation that the glock was not quite the same. From your words, I conclude that it was not at all the same. But the impression still made. On our gross samples of this quality, surface treatment and fitting of parts did not meet. So the Turks and the Chinese fellows, well, Mr. Press.
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul April 11 2019 20: 08
                0
                The Chinese and 1911 at Norinko are doing pretty high quality. But the wormhole sharpens spending 400-500 euros on Chinese 1911 and then constantly scolding itself that it threw money to the wind.

                Will shoot for some time. Milling and laser cutting with engraving is not everything. Metallurgy is important and OTC (arsenal test). If the stamp of the German arsenal is worth it, then you can trust.
                1. Mooh
                  Mooh April 13 2019 00: 09
                  -1
                  Will shoot for some time.

                  And then what? The striker is sharpened and the barrel will lead?
                  And by the way, as the owner of the original glock, please tell me, can they hammer a nail without harm to the glock?
                  And personally, would you begin to hammer a nail in them or open a bottle, if you really really need to?
  6. Doliva63
    Doliva63 April 10 2019 19: 53
    +3
    "... the classic model - Colt M1911A1 caliber 11,34 mm ..."
    For some reason, in my brain poisoned with alcohol, the caliber is 11, 45 mm. Alcohol is not the model, or what? belay
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 April 10 2019 20: 07
      +3
      After the next glass, clarification surfaced - 11, 43, damn it. From childhood, he collected ammunition from Civil and World War II, and then it suddenly jammed. Undernutrition. laughing drinks
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 10 2019 21: 16
        +4
        I also collected, and there was a good collection, but in the 80th year I had to hand over everything "voluntarily" to the Office. There were benefactors - they snitched. It's a pity... hi drinks To your health!!!
        1. Doliva63
          Doliva63 April 11 2019 18: 56
          0
          Quote: Sea Cat
          I also collected, and there was a good collection, but in the 80th year I had to hand over everything "voluntarily" to the Office. There were benefactors - they snitched. It's a pity... hi drinks To your health!!!

          And all the best to you! I had no problems, but in 81 I went to the army - my younger brother, as unnecessary, sold everything to someone, bastard. It's a shame. There was everything that was used in the Civil. Generation Pepsi, damn it. Also "gone" are albums on the history of steam locomotive construction in Russia / USSR, the development of artillery, an awesome collection of stamps and coins, where there was even a "Ural chervonets". But the pity of all is the collection of mouthpieces and pipes - Europe, Africa, both Americas, ours - made of wood, jasper, etc. Well, okay, we have experienced the collapse of the country, and this is somehow laughing drinks
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 11 2019 21: 00
            0
            Yes, it's a shame when there are losses that could have been avoided. I also left a lot of good books, and go remember where you went ...
            All the best and health, colleague. hi
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 21: 42
      0
      What is the difference between the classic 1911 model and the non-classical 1911 model?

      Attention! You do not have permission to view hidden text.
    3. Shopping Mall
      April 10 2019 21: 55
      +3
      Quote: Doliva63
      "... the classic model - Colt M1911A1 caliber 11,34 mm ..."
      For some reason, in my brain poisoned with alcohol, the caliber is 11, 45 mm. Alcohol is not the model, or what? belay


      This is of course a typo, correct 11,43 hi
  7. Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 21: 29
    +3
    It uses a single action mechanism that prevents firing by self-cocking


    Samovzod - the original solution to a non-existent problem. (Not my words)
    The self-platoon was relevant in the first half of the 20-th century, when the production of ammunition was not very high quality. Rigid caps, worn springs in the arms were the main reason to try again to break the cap. Today, it is better to immediately throw out the axial cartridge than to try to shoot it again and again. Chance is a little shot. The chance is great that you still have to send a new cartridge. Better to send right away.
    1. Shopping Mall
      April 10 2019 22: 01
      +2
      Quote: Horse, people and soul
      It uses a single action mechanism that prevents firing by self-cocking


      Samovzod - the original solution to a non-existent problem. (Not my words)
      The self-platoon was relevant in the first half of the 20-th century, when the production of ammunition was not very high quality. Rigid caps, worn springs in the arms were the main reason to try again to break the cap. Today, it is better to immediately throw out the axial cartridge than to try to shoot it again and again. Chance is a little shot. The chance is great that you still have to send a new cartridge. Better to send right away.


      I agree, I was told the same thing when teaching.
      But here's an interesting, my favorite Glock pistol, but I like the USM with P226. Double with decoder.
      I just think that the Glock still has a very soft descent, and in principle you can accidentally press or hook it, and squeeze out the 5 kg with a self-platoon (essentially a turret descent), this should be tried. Therefore, you can safely carry a pistol with a cartridge in the chamber, it is absolutely safe, and a non-automatic safety device, which you can forget to turn off in a stressful situation, is definitely not needed.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 22: 38
        +1
        I just think that Glock still has a very soft descent, and in principle it can be accidentally pressed or hooked.


        Well ... Glock, unlike other "soap dishes" is not a soap dish, but a system.

        What you need to descend - and this set. The standard is 2.5 kg, on sports models 2 kg, there is an option 3.5, 5 and 6 kg. For some reason, the last 2 is needed only by an American policeman who is having fun shooting his own ally. Zadornov about them long ago said everything.

        You need the right holster in order not to shoot at the lash. Native "Sport and Combat" is a good choice. Lightweight, plastic, the weapon is well fixed, even if you twist a somersault, and close to the body.

        A descent just strive to make it easier and smoother, less than 2 kg for which there is an aftermarket part.

        With a light pistol, a smooth and easy descent is especially important for accurate shooting. A heavy gun can forgive the shooter's mistakes. Easy - does not forgive.
        1. Shopping Mall
          April 10 2019 23: 16
          0
          Quote: Horse, people and soul
          I just think that Glock still has a very soft descent, and in principle it can be accidentally pressed or hooked.


          Well ... Glock, unlike other "soap dishes" is not a soap dish, but a system.

          What you need to descend - and this set. The standard is 2.5 kg, on sports models 2 kg, there is an option 3.5, 5 and 6 kg. For some reason, the last 2 is needed only by an American policeman who is having fun shooting his own ally. Zadornov about them long ago said everything.


          So yes, but I want to safely wear without a fuse, and quite easy descent, so the decoder.

          But if you choose from pistols, then I would still take the Glock.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 23: 55
            0
            So I had a light descent (I needed not just an easy one, but a smooth one, without the characteristic Glokovsky "wall" before triggering, but both parts were replaced) and I wear a Glock with three fuses. Yes, the Glock has three fuses and it is safe to carry it with the main fuse in your head.

            hi
          2. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 11 2019 00: 01
            +2
            But if you choose from pistols, then I would still take the Glock.


            And he would save as much money as Glock himself costs. And you can spend them in different ways.

            You can, for example, buy a subcompact version of Glock.

            That is, for the money for the stainless version of the Sig P226 or P229 Elite version you get two Glock. One full-size and one subcompact.

            Is one Sig worth two Glocks? IMHO, not worth it.

            hi
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 22: 43
        0
        Therefore, you can safely carry a pistol with a cartridge in the chamber, absolutely safe


        Glock and wear safely with a cartridge in the chamber, if necessary. The American security forces have a problem that they forget that the cartridge in the chamber.
    2. Hauptsturmfuhrer
      Hauptsturmfuhrer April 10 2019 22: 28
      0
      Self-winding is relevant for another reason - security. I went to the operas to meet in an obscure atmosphere with PM. He sent the cartridge to the chamber, put it on the fuse and immediately removed it. cartridge in the barrel, the barrel in the pocket (sleeve). The trigger is in the idle position, it will not inflict an accidental blow to the striker. When clarifying the moment of truth, you do not need to remove it from the fuse - press the trigger harder, shoot the enemy without taking the barrel out of your pocket (sleeve)
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 22: 48
        0
        And what is the problem of wearing a cartridge chamber on the same Glock? The design of the gun will allow you to safely carry the cartridge in the chamber, subject to other conditions (proper holster).

        Another thing is that the job description prohibits this for the security forces and civil defense organizations (not about Russia).

        There are a great many holsters of different varieties and several holsters for different ways of wearing are worth operas. But certainly not in the sleeve and not in the pocket to carry.
        1. Hauptsturmfuhrer
          Hauptsturmfuhrer April 10 2019 22: 58
          0
          That's the problem - profanity. Security measures and pieces of paper closed the real work. Your holster is visible, visual, and you will be finished before you bring your hand to it. the so-called operational holsters of hidden wearing under the arm, on boobs, etc. also vivid. Therefore, the old people wear - professionals in their sleeves and in their pockets, and you can’t shove such healthy crap as PIs into it. Respectfully your interlocutor
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 23: 03
            +1
            I wear Glock 19 in a kidex holster. My friend wears a full-size 1911 also in a kidex holster.

            Weapons are not sealed through clothing. You can even shut up your shirt and not see. To get it - you pull the shirt with your left hand, you get it with your right hand. In the summer I have in this version in the form of clothes number zero - underpants-shirt-gun-Glock 43 in an intralate holster from kaydeks.
            1. Hauptsturmfuhrer
              Hauptsturmfuhrer April 10 2019 23: 14
              0
              I don't know, I haven't tried it in my belt. Interesting. The point of carrying it in your pocket is that the hand in your pocket, lying there at ease, does not arouse the opponent's suspicions. The hand reaching for the barrel even for the belt will be anticipated. Look at the same complex RB # 28 "disarming when trying to get a weapon" - hitting the scoreboard, hand lever and that's it. Although, it may not be relevant to you.
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul April 11 2019 00: 10
                0
                Kidex holster is light, strong, thin, thermoformed exactly according to the model of the gun, smooth inside. The gun is clicked onto the safety clip. The screw holding force is regulated by the screw. On the clip for the belt, but the holster itself inside the belt, in the pants. The trick is that you get it instantly. And if you need to put it back, the trigger is reliably protected. The leather of the holster can be wrapped and pressed - kideks never.

                Can be worn under the right hand or cross-draw (like the Fritz), but it is easier to intercept and squeeze the hand.

                The most common way for 4 hours under a jacket or sweater, shirt on the run.
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 22: 50
        +1
        shot through the enemy without taking the barrel out of pocket (sleeves)


        From the pocket?

        From the gun it will be only one shot. And immediately a delay.
        This revolver can shoot from a pocket if the shooter is not afraid to shoot himself eggs with a breakthrough of gases from .357 Magnum.
        1. Hauptsturmfuhrer
          Hauptsturmfuhrer April 10 2019 23: 05
          -1
          Yes, after the first shot from the pocket, there’s a delay sometimes. But the second is not necessary (did not have to do the second, who has experience - share). But it is quickly disposable.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 10 2019 23: 10
            +3
            I would not.

            hi

            And I would not advise anyone.

            Firstly, the consequences are dangerous. Delay increases the chance of getting a return bullet or knife.
            Secondly, there are different varieties of holsters that allow you to carry and quickly get weapons unnoticed and safely. Try, try, train.
  8. Sasha_rulevoy
    Sasha_rulevoy April 15 2019 19: 07
    0
    Mark 23 Model 0 US SOCOM


    Shot from this Sokom in the dash. It turned out only if you hold with two hands, if you hold one, it often wedges. Well, maybe I’m such a dead-ass, Schwarzenegger would have succeeded with one hand.

    And 1911 is a completely different impression. Small, light as a toy. It’s convenient to hold, it doesn’t throw much when shooting. Sometimes it jammed, but it looked very old. And the button for the clip is more convenient.