Military Review

About ammunition, army pistols and submachine guns in the RF Armed Forces

136

Bulletproof vests and ammunition


Huge impact on the development of small arms weapons in Russia and in the world widespread means of individual armor protection (NIB) fighters - body armor. Continuous improvement of body armor has led to the fact that many samples of modern weapons are no longer able to break through individual armor at any acceptable range. To solve this problem, there are two ways: the first is the improvement of existing ammunition, the second is the creation of completely new ammunition.



The 6,8x43 mm cartridge Remington SPC (left) compared with the standard US Army cartridge 5,56x45, telescopic ammunition is also considered as an ammunition of promising small arms - the LSAT promising light machine gun (on the right)


As part of the creation of new ammunition in the United States and NATO countries, the transition to a new unified rifle ammunition of the caliber 6,8 mm is being considered.

To armor crews of armored vehicles and fighters of auxiliary units, the concept of personal defense weapon (PDW) was developed, including new small-sized ammunition of the caliber 4,6-5,7 mm and weapons under them, capable of hitting targets protected by NIB, at a distance of up to 200 m.


PDW weapons - HK MP7 caliber 4,6x30 mm and FN P90 5,7x28 mm



HK MP7 Workflow


FN P90 Workflow

In Russia, such examples include the armor-piercing cartridge of the caliber 9X21 mm (7Н29) used in the CP-1 Gyurza pistol (Serdyukov self-loading pistol - ATP / Vector / 653) and in the new Udav pistol.


Guns CP-1 "Gyurza" and "Boa" under the cartridge 9х21


An alternative is to increase the armor penetration of existing ammunition - the introduction of heat-strengthened cores into the design, an increase in the powder charge. As an illustrative example of this approach, you can specify the domestic cartridges 7X21 and 7X31 caliber 9X19 mm.

About ammunition, army pistols and submachine guns in the RF Armed Forces

Armor-piercing cartridges of 7X21, 7X31 caliber 9X19 mm and 7X29 caliber 9X21 mm


Which approach can be considered preferable? Each of them has its advantages and disadvantages. Modernization of existing ammunition is cheaper, because along with new ammunition, previously released ammunition lying in stocks can also be used. Also, in some cases, existing weapons can be used, if their design can withstand reinforced ammunition. On the other hand, often the new ammunition is too powerful for existing weapons, which in any case needs to be replaced with new weapons. Accidental or deliberate use of reinforced ammunition in old weapons can lead to its failure and injury to the shooter. In addition, in the rigidly defined dimensions of the "old" ammunition, developers may be limited in choosing the most effective design solutions.

In turn, when creating a new ammunition from scratch, all the latest advances in materials science can be implemented, the optimal weight and size parameters of promising ammunition can be selected. Eliminates the possibility of the use of new ammunition in obsolete weapons.

Thus, the modernization of obsolete ammunition can be considered effective only until the replacement of weapons is required due to a significant change in the tactical and technical characteristics (TTX) of the new ammunition. Otherwise, the creation of a completely new weapon-cartridge complex can be considered the most optimal solution.

Pistols


A little earlier, we already considered the adventures of an army pistol in Russia, set forth in first and in second parts. Accordingly, we saw that many candidates were considered for the role of the army pistol of the armed forces of the Russian Federation. Based on the information available for study, the most likely candidate for this role is the Lebedev pistol developed by the Kalashnikov Concern in full (PL-15) and shortened (PL-15К) versions.


Pistols: full-size PL-15 and shortened PL-15K


Prospective army pistols, supposed to replace the Makarov pistol, are often criticized for their large size and weight compared to the latter. Along with the never-finished GS-18 pistol, the PL-15K pistol can be considered the most burdensome models for continuous wearing.

Meanwhile, suddenly in all the media there was information about the adoption of the gun "Boa" under the cartridge 9x21 mm. In general, the very procedure for choosing an army pistol without a competition raises many questions. In addition, this weapon turned out to be quite large and will certainly cause complaints from users with constant wear.

It can be assumed that the Boa constrictor pistol will occupy the niche of the CP-1 Gyurza pistol and will become a weapon of special units, but at the same time, the following is indicated on the Rostec concern website:
The Russian army in the near future may get a new gun. Specialists TsNIItochmash was developed "Boa", which is designed to replace the legendary PM. The gun passed all state tests, and the decision to launch it in the series will be made very soon - in March 2019 of the year.


Which gun will ultimately become the most massive in the Russian army, time will ultimately show. It is possible that there were some problems with the Lebedev pistol during the tests, and we won’t see the PL-15 / PL-15K pistols at all, or it is possible that the information on the Rostec website was not posted correctly, and the PL-15 / PL- pistols 15K will become the main army pistol of the Russian Federation, while the “Boa” pistol will occupy the niche of special forces weapons.

Another question arises about the need to develop and manufacture a separate ammunition (ammunition family) of the caliber 9x21 mm, whose characteristics are similar to armor-piercing versions of the much more common caliber 9x19 mm.


Comparison of cartridges 7Н21, 7Н31, 7Н29


Given that all Russian, supposedly army, pistols are designed to work with the 7X21 cartridge at least, there is no problem of destruction of weapons due to improper ammunition, and the need to distribute another 9X21 mm ammunition raises certain doubts.

Submachine guns


The niche of submachine guns in Russia has always been extremely specific. In the west, this is a fairly common weapon of the police and special services, just remember the well-known German Heckler & Koch MP5 or the Israeli UZI.


The most famous submachine guns in the world are the German Heckler & Koch MP5 and the Israeli UZI


In the post-war period, submachine guns were not used in the USSR, their niche was firmly occupied by the shortened Kalashnikov assault rifle - the AKS-74U, which was issued (issued?) Even to police patrol officers (PPS).

The first samples of Soviet / Russian submachine guns began to be developed at the end of the 80's and the beginning of the 90's. Sometimes these were reworkings of the same Kalashnikov assault rifle, such as, for example, the Bison submachine gun, sometimes completely new developments of varying degrees of success.


Submachine gun PP-19 "Bison" with auger and sector store. The similarity with AK is obviously designed for cartridges 9x17 mm, 9x18 mm, 9X19 mm and 7,62x25 mm TT



Submachine guns PP-91 "Cedar" caliber 9x18 mm with CP2M "Heather" caliber 9x21 mm


Initially, the niche of Russian submachine guns was quite limited, perhaps due in large part to the financial difficulties of the 90's. Over time, machine gun pistols occupied their limited niche in the structures of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Federal Service of Court Bailiffs, the FSO, the FSB, the FSNP, the FSIN and other law enforcement agencies. Inhabitants most often can see submachine guns from collectors working with ATMs or taking revenues in supermarkets and gas stations.


Another candidate for promotion to the power structures of the Russian Federation is the Agishevsky submachine gun 9x19, manufactured by the Hammer-Weapon factory, supposedly originally intended for the civilian market


But in the armed forces of the Russian Federation submachine guns did not receive distribution. The emergency reserve of pilots includes a Stechkin pistol and / or an AKS-74U assault rifle, the situation is similar for armored crews (pistols + a shortened assault rifle).

If we talk about the crews of armored vehicles, for which the risk of being in the thick of the combined arms battle is high enough, then talking about any submachine guns is simply irresponsible. In the end, find in tank the place for three full-sized Kalashnikovs, or their modern shortened versions like AK-104 / AK-105, is quite real.

But with the pilots the situation is more complicated. In August 2019, there was information that they wanted to replace the AKS-74U, replacing it with a lighter and more compact submachine gun PP-2000.


Submachine gun PP-2000 caliber 9x19 mm



PP-2000 Workflow

What will this give from a practical point of view? Will the flight range increase by 100 meters or the ammunition of an air gun on 5 shells? What will the pilot get as a result of this replacement? Lesser firepower and less common ammunition?

If in terms of the development of the army pistol there is some progress in increasing armor penetration, the capabilities of the PP-2000 in terms of armor penetration and firing range will be significantly inferior to the AKS-74, even with the cartridge of increased armor penetration 7Н31.

Let's try to see the situation from the tasks being solved. A pilot can only be on the ground if his plane / helicopter is shot down or he crashes for technical reasons. In this case, the pilot enters hostile territory, with significant numerical and fire superiority of the enemy. Accordingly, camouflage will be the pilot’s best ally, and fighting the pilot is best only if absolutely necessary, taking into account the minimum unmasking of his position, which requires a silencer on the weapon. Another significant factor is the extreme limited ammunition, which most likely will be nowhere to be replenished, which implies the need to ensure high-precision shooting, high ammunition striking properties and the presence of an optical sight on weapons.

Does Russia have weapons suitable for these requirements? Of course. These are silent sniper rifles 6П29 "Vintorez" and VSK-94, machine guns 6П30 "Shaft" and 9А-91 under the powerful cartridges 9х39. In combination with a simple and reliable optical sight of small magnification, possibly with an additional nozzle for shooting in the dark, with armor-piercing rounds in the kit, this weapon can significantly increase the chances of pilots to survive in hostile territory. Given the presence of two developers / manufacturers, it is quite possible to hold a competition and, based on its results, choose the most optimal option. It is not clear why such an obvious solution was not implemented as far back as 25 years ago, when all these weapons only appeared.


Silent sniper rifles "Vintorez-M" and VSK-94 chambered for 9x39



Silent machines "Val" and 9A-91 chambered for 9x39


A submachine guns for a pistol cartridge is best left to those who use them at present, they have absolutely nothing to do in the army.

In the next article, we will consider what a promising army pistol can be in the context of the PDW concept.
Author:
Photos used:
militaryarms.ru, zonwar.ru, oruzheika.blogspot.com, rostec.ru, armoury-online.ru, guns.ru
Articles from this series:
Army pistol in Russia. Part of 1
Army pistol in Russia. Part of 2
Army gun in the USA. Part of 1
Army gun in the USA. Part of 2
136 comments
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  1. Theodore
    Theodore 24 September 2019 18: 12
    +7
    And who would think of a Val with Vintorez flyers give !? They are downed, visible for 5 km! And the hunt begins immediately! It’s better to immediately send a group to send help!
    1. polpot
      polpot 24 September 2019 18: 17
      +10
      You can also arm the flyers with "Bumblebees", also a good weapon
      1. Theodore
        Theodore 24 September 2019 18: 28
        +2
        Then immediately minigun!
        1. Monster_Fat
          Monster_Fat 24 September 2019 18: 38
          +14
          Lord, alone do I see a terrible burnishing on modern Russian small arms, especially pistols ....? winked
          1. Theodore
            Theodore 24 September 2019 18: 39
            +8
            Well, we are not blind either! But we are not metrosexuals ....
          2. Maki Avellevich
            Maki Avellevich 24 September 2019 20: 11
            +3
            Quote: Monster_Fat
            come on, alone, I see a terrible bluing on modern Russian small arms, especially pistols ....?

            Yes. the steel looks kind of shabby. life-giving warps.
        2. mark1
          mark1 24 September 2019 20: 00
          +2
          I propose my option - when ejecting a gun, a gun is detached along with the seat (connected, say, with a cable), and the pilot in the NZ has 5-10 shells (you never know, he shot everything in battle) and the makar holster.
          1. Maksim_ms
            Maksim_ms 25 September 2019 15: 42
            0
            then the chassis too, so that later it can be transformed into a cart.
            1. mark1
              mark1 25 September 2019 17: 08
              0
              This option (the main one) was proposed back in August ("AKS-74u will be replaced by PP-2000") - now the "light" version
    2. Shopping Mall
      24 September 2019 18: 46
      +12
      Quote: Theodore
      And who would think of a Val with Vintorez flyers give !? They are downed, visible for 5 km! And the hunt begins immediately! It’s better to immediately send a group to send help!


      Better yet, they would teleport directly to the base, or be saved before departure like in a computer game.

      If the group decides everything, then why do weapons at all? Maybe it’s better to put a pack of bucks to negotiate with the locals? I really don’t think so. that she will lie in the emergency reserve for a long time.

      It's about the weapon minimally unmasking the pilot, if he has to use it. But PP is not much better than APS and worse than AK, and certainly worse than BCC.
      1. Cruorvult
        Cruorvult 24 September 2019 19: 46
        +2
        I think AMB-17 can be added to the article.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fRTK9BgcTo
        1. Shopping Mall
          24 September 2019 22: 16
          +6
          Namely, a great addition. Under these cartridges there is still the AK-9. Those. There are more than enough weapons for the competition and the selection of the optimal model, and the fact that the pilot’s weapon concept should be based on silent Vintorez / Val weapons does not cause any doubts. The only question is the dimensions. Most likely Vintorez and VSK-94 may not fit into the dimensions of NAZ, but 9-91, AK-9, AMB-17 with detached silencers and folded butts may well.
          1. Cruorvult
            Cruorvult 24 September 2019 22: 40
            0
            one problem, less ammunition than for 5,45
            1. Shopping Mall
              24 September 2019 22: 54
              +3
              Quote: CruorVult
              one problem, less ammunition than for 5,45


              Yes, about twice, but I would prefer 60 silent and flameless shots 9x39, than 120 unmasking me 5,45x39.

              By the way, the mass of the 9x19 cartridge is only 30% less than that of the 5,45x39. And for versions with a heavy bullet for silent shooting, it is completely the same.
              1. haron
                haron 26 September 2019 04: 08
                0
                Quote: AVM
                Yes, about twice, but I would prefer 60 silent and flameless shots 9x39, than 120 unmasking me 5,45x39.

                And why not prefer the good old 7,62x39. IMHO the perfect compromise. The pool has poorly mastered surface teflon, natural materials such as basalt, hydroxy silicon, corundum, with viscous shells and dense fillings. In general, no one has played with the forms of these components. To pierce and put at once. They are also capable of noise and dust.
                How many do you need? 60-90 pieces per flyer.
                And if the Armageddian, then the classics in this caliber are a little easier to find than the rest.
                IMHO
                1. Shopping Mall
                  27 September 2019 09: 49
                  0
                  Quote: haron
                  Quote: AVM
                  Yes, about twice, but I would prefer 60 silent and flameless shots 9x39, than 120 unmasking me 5,45x39.

                  And why not prefer the good old 7,62x39. IMHO the perfect compromise. The pool has poorly mastered surface teflon, natural materials such as basalt, hydroxy silicon, corundum, with viscous shells and dense fillings. In general, no one has played with the forms of these components. To pierce and put at once. They are also capable of noise and dust.
                  How many do you need? 60-90 pieces per flyer.
                  And if the Armageddian, then the classics in this caliber are a little easier to find than the rest.
                  IMHO


                  If we talk about a promising cartridge with new materials, then most likely it will be completely new, like 6,8 in the USA, possibly telescopic or with a polymer sleeve.

                  And if you do something on the basis of 7,62, it is better not to go too far from traditional materials, so that it does not turn out that the new cartridge is not compatible with old weapons. In the silent version, it’s quite realizable, and it seems to be not bad, although it is inferior to 9x39. PMSM can serve as an alternative, but there are no compact AK models for 7,62, and I don’t know how it is now with silencers and subsonic cartridges for 7,62x39.
                  1. haron
                    haron 27 September 2019 19: 11
                    0
                    Quote: AVM
                    so that it doesn’t happen that the new cartridge is not compatible with old weapons.

                    On the contrary. It is necessary to do something so that the new weapon fits any 7,62x39 which (God forbid, or God forbid) will be required after the consumption of the main BC.
                    Grandfather I.T. K. was right when he spoke of non-disclosure of 7,62x39.
      2. NN52
        NN52 24 September 2019 21: 13
        +5
        AVM (Andrey Mitrofanov)

        Not the use of weapons unmasks us, and not the timely disconnected battery from the Mosquito ....
        And the use of weapons is already the edge ...
        And Roman Filipov didn’t succeed from NAZ (didn’t have time) to get an automatic machine ....
        So at least a cannon in NAZ, at least bucks (but I think this is an incorrect banter from the author ..) will not help.
        1. Shopping Mall
          24 September 2019 21: 40
          +4
          Quote: NN52
          Not the use of weapons unmasks us, but not the timely disconnected battery from the Mosquito .... And the use of weapons is already the edge ...


          Maybe then do not put weapons at all? The chance is better than the lack of a chance, and the PMSM, a silent weapon like VSK / VSS / Val / 9A91, is better than PP 2000 or AKSU. This is what the replacement of AKSU with 200 software is pointless, and with VSK / BCC / Val / 9A91 is reasonable. And I have not heard a single organization why this is not reasonable. Just the idea that the weapons in the NAZ are generally useless, or that there is enough PM to shoot in the face.

          Quote: NN52
          And Roman Filipov didn’t succeed from NAZ (didn’t have time) to get an automatic machine ....


          There are different situations; one cannot reduce everything to one case. If the airbag did not save the driver in the car, this does not mean that it is worth abandoning them altogether.

          Quote: NN52
          So at least a cannon in NAZ, at least bucks (but I think this is an incorrect banter from the author ..) will not help.


          Included NAZ for U-2 pilots:
          When it was discovered silenced pistol, hunting knife, inflatable rescue boat, supply of food and water, lighting missiles, compass, Soviet rubles, gold rings and a few gold watches1 denominated hollow coin with poisoned needle, explosive device and silk poster with the following words in 14 languages: "I do not bring harm to your people. If you help me, you will get a reward ”


          Not so much banter. Of course, this is not so applicable to army pilots, but Judah is everywhere, and completely exclude the benefit of the D.S. and / or promises of an additional reward for salvation are not allowed.
          1. NN52
            NN52 24 September 2019 21: 52
            +2
            AVM (Andrey Mitrofanov)
            Well, let's look at another case ....
            Pawns with a damaged spine (during ejection), covered the retreat of Murakhtin ...
            He covered for exactly five minutes .... but then the ammunition ended, and then the grenades were not yet in flight unloading, like her ...
            And what would help in this case? The nuclear bomb in NAZ?
            1. Shopping Mall
              24 September 2019 22: 03
              +3
              Quote: NN52
              AVM (Andrey Mitrofanov)
              Well, let's look at another case ....
              Pawns with a damaged spine (during ejection), covered the retreat of Murakhtin ...
              He covered for exactly five minutes .... but then the ammunition ended, and then the grenades were not yet in flight unloading, like her ...
              And what would help in this case? The nuclear bomb in NAZ?


              Isn't Peshkova shot in the air?

              Let's consider all the cases when the pilot cannot move, or he fell right into the hands of the enemy, or died right on the plane? In all these cases, the weapon will not help the pilot. So, give up weapons?

              And in the example you cited there are questions. Maybe with a more effective weapon he could cover his partner not 5 but 15-30 minutes, fire more effectively at the enemy? Perhaps he himself could not have been saved, but would have increased his partner's chances of survival? And is it possible that silent fire from two positions would make the militants slow down, give time for the reaction of the rescue group?

              In the USA, by the way, conclusions were drawn, and the pilots are armed with full-fledged rifles, and we want to put a submachine gun.

              https://army-news.ru/2019/06/vintovka-dlya-samooborony-letchikov-ssha/
              1. NN52
                NN52 24 September 2019 22: 16
                +2
                AVM (Andrey Mitrofanov)

                Not in the air .... covered and did not give in hands)

                We do not refuse weapons, it is enough that we have. And we are developing a PSO service according to the American type, and investing money there (for matbase and training of the PSO). And then the pilot will be calm and perceive adequately the words "pilot, remember, they are looking for you" ....
                And do not invest hundreds of millions of rubles on new weapons designs for NAZ and TESTS of ejection seats (can you imagine what this is?) For different types of aircraft ... or even billions ....
                1. Shopping Mall
                  24 September 2019 22: 21
                  +2
                  Quote: NN52
                  AVM (Andrey Mitrofanov)

                  Not in the air .... covered and did not give in hands)

                  We do not refuse weapons, it is enough that we have. And we are developing a PSO service according to the American type, and investing money there (for matbase and training of the PSO). And then the pilot will be calm and perceive adequately the words "pilot, remember, they are looking for you" ....
                  And do not invest hundreds of millions of rubles on new weapons designs for NAZ and TESTS of ejection seats (can you imagine what this is?) For different types of aircraft ... or even billions ....


                  So it’s not me who suggested pushing PP2000 in there, because you also need to test it in NAZ.

                  But the proposed weapon does not need to be developed, it already exists, it is enough to make a comparison and choose the best of 6P29 "Vintorez" and VSK-94, machine guns 6P30 "Val" and 9А-91, AK-9 and AMB-17.

                  And if we are making a new plane or helicopter, for example, the Su-57, Tu-160М2, Mi-28НМ, then we can take care of the pilots, i.e. make a new NAZ for new planes.
              2. Avior
                Avior 25 September 2019 10: 22
                0
                and you read the article by reference?
                1. Shopping Mall
                  25 September 2019 15: 06
                  +1
                  Quote: Avior
                  and you read the article by reference?


                  Are you talking about https://army-news.ru/2019/06/vintovka-dlya-samooborony-letchikov-ssha/, and about the fact that the commentator offers the Americans MP-5 instead of this rifle?

                  It is his right to offer (both mine and yours), but this does not mean that it is right.

                  I personally do not see the point in MP5 in NAZ. There is still such a nuance that the United States simply has no 9A91 / Whirlwind weapons.
          2. riwas
            riwas 25 September 2019 07: 07
            +3
            There are all sorts of options - if a small group of the enemy, then you can fight back.
            From the experience of World War II.
            Ilya Grigorievich Starinov:
            “I remember the case when Soviet pilots were shot down over Romania during a raid on military targets. The pilots managed to land successfully and even get together in full force, but they were not familiar with actions behind enemy lines, did not know how to get food, hide and, thus more, to wage a partisan struggle. When they went out to get food to the village, they were seized. In most cases, the crews of our planes shot down by the enemy were caught by local police and fascist detachments of the Iron Guards.
            American pilots, having in their hands Romanian and other money, as well as maps on which the places of deployment of partisan detachments in Yugoslavia, Albania and Greece were drawn, successfully went to the partisans. Therefore, compared to ours, so few American pilots were captured, although many more American planes were shot down. "
      3. Hog
        Hog 25 September 2019 10: 03
        +2
        But PP is not much better than APS and worse than AK, and certainly worse than BCC.

        Then give RMB / Pecheneg and a dozen boxes of ammunition.
        The shaft / Vintorez are large and there is nowhere to store them on an airplane / helicopter.
        AKSU replaced by the same PP-2000 with an increase in wearable ammunition by half (and the muffler will not greatly increase its dimensions) + the possibility of hidden wearing.
        With fire contact, the difference will not be large (the Barmalei were not observed in the broniki) and the greater penetration of 5,45 does not play a role.
        1. Shopping Mall
          25 September 2019 14: 35
          0
          Quote: Hog
          With fire contact, the difference will not be large (the Barmalei were not observed in the broniki) and the greater penetration of 5,45 does not play a role.


          9A91 / Whirlwind / AK-9, not more than AKS-74U.

          Cartridges 7H31 for PP2000 in weight 0,7-0,8 from 5,45x39, and if you take subsonic with a heavy bullet, then they will be heavier.

          Quote: Hog
          With fire contact, the difference will not be large (the Barmalei were not observed in the broniki) and the greater penetration of 5,45 does not play a role.


          And we only focus on barmaley?
          1. Hog
            Hog 25 September 2019 14: 58
            0
            9A91 / Whirlwind / AK-9, not more than AKS-74U.

            But less ammunition because its weight and dimensions are greater.
            Cartridges 7H31 for PP2000 in weight 0,7-0,8 from 5,45x39, and if you take subsonic with a heavy bullet, then they will be heavier.

            But they at least take up less space.
            And we only focus on barmaley?

            After WWII all the time.
            What is Afghanistan, what is Chechnya, etc.
      4. Kalmar
        Kalmar 25 September 2019 13: 00
        0
        Quote: AVM
        It's about the weapon minimally unmasking the pilot, if he has to use it. But PP is not much better than APS and worse than AK, and certainly worse than BCC.

        Thoughts aloud: if a downed pilot is really interesting to the enemy, then not single bounty hunters will be looking for him, but whole squads. And here's the question: what does PP / AK / VSS give a pilot who does not have special shooting training in the event of a collision with such a detachment? In fact, only the opportunity to take the last battle and leave as a hero, no? "Val" or VSS in this situation do not give special advantages over PP, as I see it.

        And if weapons are needed more for psychological support and, for example, obtaining food by hunting (you never know where to fall), then VSS is all the more impractical. It’s better to have something smaller, lighter and with more ammunition.
        1. Shopping Mall
          25 September 2019 14: 40
          0
          Quote: Kalmar
          Quote: AVM
          It's about the weapon minimally unmasking the pilot, if he has to use it. But PP is not much better than APS and worse than AK, and certainly worse than BCC.

          Thoughts aloud: if a downed pilot is really interesting to the enemy, then not single bounty hunters will be looking for him, but whole squads. And here's the question: what does PP / AK / VSS give a pilot who does not have special shooting training in the event of a collision with such a detachment? In fact, only the opportunity to take the last battle and leave as a hero, no? "Val" or VSS in this situation do not give special advantages over PP, as I see it.

          And if weapons are needed more for psychological support and, for example, obtaining food by hunting (you never know where to fall), then VSS is all the more impractical. It’s better to have something smaller, lighter and with more ammunition.


          Just for hunting, the 9X39 is more practical, it will suit average game, and you will not unmask yourself with shots. And from PP who can you hunt for? And in the hunt they do not shoot in bursts, the ammunition for hunting will be slowly spent.

          And the fact that the pilots do not have (certainly not?) Shooting training is very bad, and this must be corrected.
          1. Kalmar
            Kalmar 25 September 2019 15: 52
            0
            Quote: AVM
            Just for hunting 9x39 is more practical, it is suitable for average game

            If a pilot is shot down over a deer nursery - yes, of course. I’m not a hunter myself, but I suspect that small game in the forest will still be far more likely to meet, and it will be easier to clean up after yourself (we must leave no extra traces).

            Quote: AVM
            And in the hunt they do not shoot in bursts, the ammunition for hunting will be slowly spent.

            Well, the ammunition is the same, but much less weight. It is unlikely that after a hard landing the pilot will be in the mood to drag extra pounds on himself, fleeing from enemies.

            Quote: AVM
            And the fact that the pilots do not have (certainly not?) Shooting training is very bad, and this must be corrected.

            What's the point? As I already noted, even if you make a new Rambo out of a pilot, his chances of fighting off an enemy search group of a dozen people are very, very doubtful.
      5. vladcub
        vladcub 25 September 2019 14: 11
        0
        Stechkin or Kalashnikov has + this abundance of rounds, and the cartridge 9x39 say this: not the most common
        1. Shopping Mall
          25 September 2019 14: 41
          0
          Quote: vladcub
          Stechkin or Kalashnikov has + this abundance of rounds, and the cartridge 9x39 say this: not the most common


          The cartridges are not mushrooms, none grow in the forest. And if the pilot was able to get to the corpse of the enemy, then the weapon along with the cartridges can pick up. The enemy will not necessarily be with AK-74, maybe with AKM or M-4?
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 25 September 2019 14: 47
            0
            Quote: AVM
            if the pilot was able to get to the corpse of the enemy, then the weapon along with the cartridges can pick up

            Are you all "at war"?

            Try falling from the third or fourth floor (they say impressions are similar to bailouts) to fight a little.

            You already wrote people who are in the subject:

            Quote: NN52
            Not the use of weapons unmasks us, and not the timely disconnected battery from the Mosquito ....
            А the use of weapons, this is the edge...
            And Roman Filipov didn’t succeed from NAZ (didn’t have time) to get an automatic machine ....
            So at least a cannon in NAZ, at least bucks (but I think this is an incorrect banter from the author ..) will not help

            And what else do you want to twist here - clearly.
            1. Shopping Mall
              25 September 2019 15: 18
              0
              Quote: Cat Man Null
              Quote: AVM
              if the pilot was able to get to the corpse of the enemy, then the weapon along with the cartridges can pick up

              Are you all "at war"?

              Try falling from the third or fourth floor (they say impressions are similar to bailouts) to fight a little.

              You already wrote people who are in the subject:

              Quote: NN52
              Not the use of weapons unmasks us, and not the timely disconnected battery from the Mosquito ....
              А the use of weapons, this is the edge...
              And Roman Filipov didn’t succeed from NAZ (didn’t have time) to get an automatic machine ....
              So at least a cannon in NAZ, at least bucks (but I think this is an incorrect banter from the author ..) will not help

              And what else do you want to twist here - clearly.


              I defend my point of view, which I think is right.

              Regarding the trauma of the catapult, the question was asked, why then do weapons at all? Why now AKS-74U, and instead of it PP2000? Maybe then no PP or machine is needed at all, just a gun?

              I'm wondering, "people who are in the subject" are the actual pilots?

              Reasonable arguments, for example, are that Vintorez / Val will not fit in the NAZ, or that the ammunition is less than that of the AK, you can talk about them, and the rest is lyrics.
              1. Cat man null
                Cat man null 25 September 2019 15: 50
                -2
                Quote: AVM
                I defend my point of view, which I think is right

                I quoted a pro above. Are you few?

                Quote: AVM
                I'm wondering, "people who are in the subject" are the actual pilots?

                The person who answered you was exactly what you for some reason call a "pilot". And therefore - in the subject. The feed of his comments is available, read it, maybe you will understand. Although I have some doubts about this.

                Quote: AVM
                Reasonable arguments, for example, are that ... you can talk about them, and the rest is lyrics

                Goldreer bit you. IMHO.
      6. Okolotochny
        Okolotochny 5 November 2019 00: 01
        0
        By the way, in the photo with Bison and Vityaz. You did not mention it.
    3. Doctor
      Doctor 24 September 2019 21: 07
      +3
      And who will think of a shaft with a Vintorez flyers give!

      The idea is very good, it was discussed at VO. The disassembled shaft is compact and is visited in the pilot's seat. Silent weapons work much worse, more unexpected, inconspicuous and are perceived as special forces weapons, which forces the enemy to be more careful. The chances of surviving and waiting with him for the rescue group are clearly higher. This weapon is not for everyone, but there are not so many pilots.
      1. Hog
        Hog 25 September 2019 10: 51
        +1
        In disassembled, brilliant.
        The pilot sat down, and next to him were two enemies, he told them "wait, now I will collect my weapons and we will fight" probably this should be so?
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Hog
            Hog 25 September 2019 15: 01
            +1
            There is one minute of business maximum.

            Ok wait one minute.
        2. Shopping Mall
          25 September 2019 12: 58
          0
          Quote: Hog
          In disassembled, brilliant.
          The pilot sat down, and next to him were two enemies, he told them "wait, now I will collect my weapons and we will fight" probably this should be so?


          There are problems with Val in this regard. And the same 9A91 or Whirlwind can be used immediately with a unscrewed silencer. Those. if the need to shoot arose immediately, the muffler is not so critical. And if there is time, then it is installed.
          1. Hog
            Hog 25 September 2019 14: 53
            0
            And the same 9A91 or Whirlwind can be used immediately

            So there was no question about them.
        3. vladcub
          vladcub 25 September 2019 14: 12
          0
          Like this
  2. Operator
    Operator 24 September 2019 18: 44
    -2
    Not a single pistol cartridge will penetrate an army body armor. Then why all these dances with tambourines around the cartridge 9x21?

    The good old subsonic 9x19 Para is quite enough to hit the enemy in the face or groin at a short distance. An expansive bullet will ensure that the enemy is in a state of shock, which is what is required of a pistol - a weapon of last chance.

    The use of a submachine gun in the army, including as a pilot’s weapon, generally beyond good and evil - the ammunition will disappear after several bursts.
    1. prodi
      prodi 24 September 2019 18: 52
      +1
      in addition to pistols, there is also a PP, for which even 9X25 does not seem unnecessary
    2. DMB_95
      DMB_95 24 September 2019 20: 11
      0
      Quote: Operator

      The good old subsonic 9x19 Para is quite enough to hit the enemy in the face or groin at a short distance. An expansive bullet will ensure that the enemy is in a state of shock, which is what is required of a pistol - a weapon of last chance.

      Expansive bullets in the Army? This is hardly a good idea. Will such a pistol caliber bullet go through a bush, for example?
      1. Shopping Mall
        24 September 2019 20: 23
        +2
        Quote: DMB_95
        Quote: Operator

        The good old subsonic 9x19 Para is quite enough to hit the enemy in the face or groin at a short distance. An expansive bullet will ensure that the enemy is in a state of shock, which is what is required of a pistol - a weapon of last chance.

        Expansive bullets in the Army? This is hardly a good idea. Will such a pistol caliber bullet go through a bush, for example?


        This is prohibited by convention, only for the police.
        1. Operator
          Operator 24 September 2019 21: 01
          -1
          When shot in the face at 5-10 meters, an ordinary bullet will come down.
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 25 September 2019 05: 51
            +2
            In a shootout, try to get more in the face. Everyone is aiming at the corps.
            1. Operator
              Operator 25 September 2019 09: 38
              -3
              With 5 meters you can’t get in your face - then you need to go to the construction battalion laughing
              1. Shopping Mall
                25 September 2019 09: 49
                +2
                Quote: Operator
                With 5 meters you can’t get in your face - then you need to go to the construction battalion laughing


                Just a face and a face with a gun are not the same thing wink
              2. 3danimal
                3danimal 25 September 2019 11: 46
                +1
                It was about 10m. Did you shoot at a moving target? Differs from static.
                And imagine that she shoots in response. It really knocks down the scope, you know.
                1. Operator
                  Operator 25 September 2019 12: 21
                  -3
                  Then only the construction battalion laughing
          2. vladcub
            vladcub 25 September 2019 14: 34
            -1
            At such a distance EVERYTHING is effective, at least throw a hammer. The hammer is thrown to a distance of more than 80 meters, and then some 5 m.
    3. Maki Avellevich
      Maki Avellevich 24 September 2019 20: 13
      +1
      Quote: Operator
      The good old subsonic 9x19 Para is quite enough to hit the enemy in the face or groin at a short distance.

      it seems that when hit in a light bulletproof vest not sugar will be /
      1. Operator
        Operator 24 September 2019 20: 59
        +2
        Easy - not army.
        1. Maki Avellevich
          Maki Avellevich 25 September 2019 06: 54
          0
          Quote: Operator
          Easy - not army.

          I don’t think that army bulletproof vests are often fired with the 9th caliber.
          usually 7.62 and 5.56 in the field
          1. Operator
            Operator 25 September 2019 09: 39
            0
            Quote: Maki Avellievich
            usually 7.62 and 5.56 in the field

            About that and speech.
        2. 3danimal
          3danimal 25 September 2019 11: 48
          0
          Army - what class? 7n32 breaks 2-3. More than enough.
    4. 3danimal
      3danimal 24 September 2019 21: 47
      0
      Equip with revolvers the pot cartridge .460. Even if it doesn’t penetrate, the target will be frayed) And you can create a bullet with a sharp core made of tool steel.
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 25 September 2019 19: 35
        0
        What did the RSh-12 not please?
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 25 September 2019 20: 27
          0
          Smaller / comparable bullet energy and significantly shorter direct-shot range (lower accuracy, harder to shoot). Starting speed 316 vs 700m / s.
          Wiki says that RSh is the most powerful revolver, this is not true. Most - .500S & W. But the recoil is also the strongest.
          .460 - they are used in "revolving" competitions because of the high accuracy.
          This is lyrics, of course)
          And pilots of the Russian Aerospace Forces with analogues of the S&W .460 would look colorful)
          1. Simargl
            Simargl 26 September 2019 06: 19
            0
            Quote: 3danimal
            Smaller / comparable bullet energy and significantly shorter direct-shot range (lower accuracy, harder to shoot). Starting speed 316 vs 700m / s.
            For a revolver, low bullet speed is not a problem, as is the consequence - DPV.
            With the same energy, the higher the speed of the bullet, the easier and faster it loses speed.
            True, the recoil momentum is higher.

            Quote: 3danimal
            Even if it doesn’t break, the target will be battered
            For 12,7 × 55, you do not need a bulletproof vest, but an armored personnel carrier, so as not to pat it.

            Quote: 3danimal
            And you can create a bullet with a sharp core made of tool steel.
            There are already 12,7 × 55 in the lineup. You can make a low-pulse cartridge specially for you. It’s now possible to equip rifled ones.
  3. garri-lin
    garri-lin 24 September 2019 18: 53
    0
    It’s time for the army to switch to 9 × 21 mm for additional weapons. In fact, the same bullet of armor-piercing as in 9 18 but with a greater weight of gunpowder. And the modernization potential for the future.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 24 September 2019 21: 49
      +1
      I do not agree. The optimal solution was and remains the transition to 9x19mm. Unification with the rest of the world, increased sales of civilian weapons, thereby reducing the cost of production models.
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin 24 September 2019 21: 51
        0
        9 18 has exhausted itself. 9 19 at the limit as an army. 9 21 and that is a compromise. And in the civilian world. You can do anything on a citizen. If a citizen does not mind.
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 24 September 2019 21: 53
          0
          I suggested .460 above)
          1. garri-lin
            garri-lin 24 September 2019 22: 10
            +2
            Glossy in the troops? So that 7,62 × 54 was not boring?
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 25 September 2019 05: 01
              0
              Conventionally, it can be processed by analogy with .357 and .357SIG. But what a power! )
              1. garri-lin
                garri-lin 25 September 2019 08: 11
                +1
                They were made to bring down horses. Redundant.
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 25 September 2019 11: 28
                  0
                  Rather, the grizzly bears, with high accuracy (700 m / s blowing speed)) But the modernization potential is huge.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 25 September 2019 17: 44
        +2
        I agree: the transition to 9x19 luger has its own reason.
        And permission to own a short-barreled weapon was long overdue. Now crime does not feel the need for weapons. Businessmen have the opportunity to arm themselves, hire guards, and ordinary people are defenseless
        1. 3danimal
          3danimal 25 September 2019 19: 00
          +1
          Right. There are statistics of prevented crimes using personal weapons in the United States. She is in favor of supporters of civilian weapons.
          Another point in favor of 9x19: it’s easier to shoot. The recoil is weaker; you better control the weapon.
          The difference is felt in comparison to the same .40S & W (comparable to 9x21 pulse). The 9x39 has an even greater impulse, in addition, the PP under it is heavier.
  4. Lopatov
    Lopatov 24 September 2019 19: 05
    +5
    In the end, to find a place in the tank for three full-sized Kalashnikovs, or their modern shortened versions like AK-104 / AK-105, is quite realistic.

    You can find, of course.
    That's just to pull it out in case of emergency leaving the tank is unlikely to succeed. Even for shorter versions.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 24 September 2019 19: 34
      +3
      It's right! I kept my AKMS behind the radio station, seemingly close at hand, but it also takes time to pick it out from there. And there was nowhere else to put it, not to hang it on the "hook". Yes, it is in the "half-four".
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 24 September 2019 19: 42
        +2
        Quote: Sea Cat
        held by the radio station

        In general, in theory, they must be in the standard clamps without fail. Otherwise, in various kinds of "funny situations", everything that is not fixed will be, so to speak, a secondary means of destruction.
        But this makes quick extraction during emergency exits even more problematic. And if you have to drag someone else, wounded or shell-shocked?
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 24 September 2019 23: 25
          0
          To be honest, I don't remember any machine clip on my car. In my opinion, he simply was not there. And behind the radio was the most convenient place, at least there he did not "dangle" when driving.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 25 September 2019 08: 07
            +1
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Honestly, I do not remember any clip for the machine on my car.

            And it should not have been.
            All add. armament is registered in TO and IE. For example, on "Shturm" there are places for RPKS-74 and RPG-7D. And there is nothing for the commander-operator's assault rifle. Since normally he was supposed to be armed with APS

            On the 54th, most likely there was only a place for grenade bags. Native weapons were pistols, and they were supposed to be in the pockets-cabarets of tankers.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 25 September 2019 12: 04
              0
              There were definitely grenade bags. Pistols, if at all, were taken for exercises, in standard leather holsters, in the pockets of kombuzes they were not worn, uncomfortable.
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 25 September 2019 05: 03
      0
      Therefore, the best option would be PP with an armor-piercing cartridge (7n31)
  5. philosopher
    philosopher 24 September 2019 19: 51
    0
    Interestingly, the author gives his opinion as the ultimate truth.
    And also wondering when the shown modern pistol SR-1 was renamed from "Veresk" to "Gyurza"? Fantasy or nostalgia?
    1. Shopping Mall
      24 September 2019 20: 27
      +4
      Quote: philosopher
      Interestingly, the author gives his opinion as the ultimate truth.
      And also wondering when the shown modern pistol SR-1 was renamed from "Veresk" to "Gyurza"? Fantasy or nostalgia?


      SR-1 - Serdyukov self-loading pistol. (SPS, "Gyurza", GRAU index 6P53). At the time of development, the code name of the pistol was adopted - "Vector". A sample of the pistol RG055S (C - commercial) called "Gyurza" was first presented at the Exhibition of Equipment and Armaments of the Ground Forces (VTTV-1996, Omsk) and was offered for export.

      Heather is a CP-2 submachine gun
  6. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 24 September 2019 19: 52
    0
    AKSU at PPS and Rosgvardiya is full, at DPSnikov too ... much less often Cedar is found, as a rule, at the senior officer
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 24 September 2019 21: 51
      +2
      PP is safer in the city, it gives less rebounds and unplanned penetrations.
      1. Shopping Mall
        24 September 2019 22: 11
        +1
        Quote: 3danimal
        PP is safer in the city, it gives less rebounds and unplanned penetrations.


        Exactly. Not a good decision to give AKSU to the teaching staff. In the event of a panic or mistreatment, strangers can easily be hurt. PP with its 100 range and lower recoil is much better.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 25 September 2019 00: 46
          +1
          The range of 100 meters for the middle class pneumatics, for the submachine gun is slightly longer. By the way, any weapon in the hands of an alarmist or clumsy is a priori dangerous for "outsiders", and not only. And even a slingshot or a kitchen knife. hi
          1. 3danimal
            3danimal 25 September 2019 17: 53
            0
            Remind me what protection classes break through mid-range pneumatics?
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 25 September 2019 20: 34
              0
              Humor appreciated, thank you for your attention. Read what Mitrofanov wrote and with this question to him. hi
              1. 3danimal
                3danimal 25 September 2019 21: 15
                0
                Perhaps it was about the aiming range of the PP?
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 26 September 2019 13: 24
                  0
                  You can declare any aiming range, for sure any subparagraph has an order of at least two hundred meters, but the REAL aiming range is clearly not more than a hundred, and most likely even less. It's just that it’s better for a person when he writes to explain what range he has in mind. They are up to a fig, these ranges.
                  1. Shopping Mall
                    27 September 2019 09: 55
                    +1
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    You can declare any aiming range, for sure any subparagraph has an order of at least two hundred meters, but the REAL aiming range is clearly not more than a hundred, and most likely even less. It's just that it’s better for a person when he writes to explain what range he has in mind. They are up to a fig, these ranges.


                    The declared target range, and by good tradition it is almost always overestimated, as now, for example, for the Udav pistol, I don't understand how you can shoot more accurately from a pistol with a greater recoil, cartridge 9x21, than from a pistol chambered for 9x19, if there are no radical design improvements in this direction.

                    And regarding the range of the bullet in which it represents a danger, there will be too much dispersion due to the different masses and aerodynamics of the 9x19 cartridges, but in any case it will be significantly less than the 5,45x39.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 27 September 2019 19: 46
                      0
                      I don’t understand how you can shoot more accurately from a pistol with a higher return, cartridge 9x21, than from a pistol under cartridge 9x19


                      I also do not understand this Andrey hi ... And even more I do not understand why this "Boa constrictor" with its "crazy" cartridge is generally needed for the entire army as a whole? The warrant officer and the officers, who will have to lug the outfits or carry it on themselves, will say thank you for this innovation, he has a lot of weight.
  7. Doliva63
    Doliva63 24 September 2019 19: 59
    -2
    "Continuous improvement of body armor has led to the fact that many models of modern weapons are no longer capable of penetrating individual body armor at any acceptable range. There are two ways to solve this problem: the first is to improve existing ammunition, and the second is to create completely new ammunition ..."
    There is 3-th option. No matter what, we shoot under a protective helmet / helmet. There is no bulletproof vest. At an acceptable distance, even PM will suit. Cheap, cheerful and effective. I agree to be a co-author of the patent laughing
    1. Shopping Mall
      24 September 2019 20: 31
      +4
      Quote: Doliva63
      "Continuous improvement of body armor has led to the fact that many models of modern weapons are no longer capable of penetrating individual body armor at any acceptable range. There are two ways to solve this problem: the first is to improve existing ammunition, and the second is to create completely new ammunition ..."
      There is 3-th option. No matter what, we shoot under a protective helmet / helmet. There is no bulletproof vest. At an acceptable distance, even PM will suit. Cheap, cheerful and effective. I agree to be a co-author of the patent laughing


      You can, of course, but how much more difficult is it? Have you tried to hit your head in a stressful situation? The carcass is much easier. If the enemy has a rifle and you have a PM, then the chance to make a "headshot" is only in urban conditions, indoors. There is no chance in the forest / field.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 25 September 2019 20: 38
        0
        Quote: AVM
        Quote: Doliva63
        "Continuous improvement of body armor has led to the fact that many models of modern weapons are no longer capable of penetrating individual body armor at any acceptable range. There are two ways to solve this problem: the first is to improve existing ammunition, and the second is to create completely new ammunition ..."
        There is 3-th option. No matter what, we shoot under a protective helmet / helmet. There is no bulletproof vest. At an acceptable distance, even PM will suit. Cheap, cheerful and effective. I agree to be a co-author of the patent laughing


        You can, of course, but how much more difficult is it? Have you tried to hit your head in a stressful situation? The carcass is much easier. If the enemy has a rifle and you have a PM, then the chance to make a "headshot" is only in urban conditions, indoors. There is no chance in the forest / field.

        I tried and got it twice. True, from a machine gun, the distance is 20 meters. It is also possible from a pistol, but for accuracy - from a closer distance. If you joined the army, do not be too lazy to do something like a high-speed pistol shooting. Over time, and his dofiga, while at school you learn, learn how to shoot offhand off the helmet edge easily! It would be a desire. Apparently, you didn’t have such a desire.
    2. SKS_PRO
      SKS_PRO 25 September 2019 16: 22
      +1
      And you skate to training to IPSC-shnikov and look how many they have there, not just not in the "alpha", but generally put by. At a distance of 5-10 meters. I'm not talking about super champions, but the usual thousands of cartridges are used up in training, and not even in a month.
      Now imagine a pilot who burns cartridges at a shooting range in thousands. Good? Practical! Accurate became!
      And when, then, should he directly engage in combat training? When will he improve his flying skills when?
      ps and as the author of the article above aptly remarked, they don’t shoot in response.
  8. Whowhy
    Whowhy 24 September 2019 20: 11
    -1
    Vintorez with VSK, of course, are fairly light and compact models, but this is relative to combined arms operations. What for a pilot a sniper scope? Who will he attack at such a distance? You need a compact, light weapon with a silencer for close combat, like the same "Chestnut" (well, maybe with a calimator sight, or LTSU). He also has very good accuracy. Just enough to destroy a couple of enemies that accidentally came to the pilot, or to seize some kind of motor vehicle. It is unlikely that the enemies will be in armor. And if the pilot got involved in an open battle, then even a machine gun will not help him, only the delay will be a little longer ...
    And to cover the retreat from the landing site, the kit can include something like PM-2 "Edek" (three or four pieces), with manual activation. And they write that a smart detonator was developed for this mine, which responds to the steps of only a person, and a person with a weapon.
    1. Shopping Mall
      24 September 2019 20: 45
      -1
      Quote: whowhy
      Screw cutters with VSKs, of course, are quite light and compact models, but they are relatively common operations. What for a pilot a sniper scope? Who will he attack at such a distance?


      Do not attack, but shoot back. Optics increases the likelihood of hitting a target, which will save ammunition. Nothing big - a compact three-four.

      Quote: whowhy
      You need a compact, light weapon with a silencer for close combat, like the same "Chestnut" (well, maybe with a calimator sight, or LTSU). He also has very good accuracy. Just enough to destroy a couple of enemies that accidentally came to the pilot, or to seize some kind of motor vehicle.


      The chestnut chambered for 9x18 weighs 100 grams less than 9A91, with cartridges of course the difference is larger, but not critical. The article mentions the issue of weight. For an extra 2 kg, is this the end of the world?

      Why should a pilot fly under the cartridge 9x18, or even under the cartridge 9x19? Effectively shoot a queue? In this sense, Stechkin with a silencer is no worse.

      And why LTSU? Bombs in a movie show? There is no better way to unmask.

      The samples listed by me give a confident range of destruction of 200 m, up to a maximum of 400 m. At this range, you can try to hold out longer. Silent sniper fire makes the pursuers go more carefully, everyone wants to live. You can remove the search dog. And at a range of PP, the muffler will already be heard, this is not a city where there are noisy and a lot of extraneous sounds.

      Do not forget that the pilot may just end up in the wild, where he will have to defend himself not from the biped, but from the four-legged. The stopping effect of 9x39 is much higher than that of 9x19, and even higher than that of 5,45x39. A wild boar, a wolf, possibly a bear, or other predators. The hunt after all.

      Quote: whowhy
      It is unlikely that the enemies will be in the bronics.


      Most likely they will, why not?

      Quote: whowhy
      And if the pilot got involved in an open battle, then even a machine gun will not help him


      Silent weapon is what you need to try to increase the distance, you can "chop the tail in pieces."

      Quote: whowhy
      only the delay will be a little longer ....


      And the more, the better.

      Quote: whowhy
      And to cover the retreat from the landing site, the kit can include something like PM-2 "Edek" (three or four pieces), with manual activation. And they write that a smart detonator was developed for this mine, which responds to the steps of only a person, and a person with a weapon.


      A pair of mines and grenades will never hurt if the pilot is trained to set mines. The truth is, for me, something needs less so that the foot is torn off, but more in quantity.
      1. Whowhy
        Whowhy 25 September 2019 09: 14
        +1
        Do not attack, but shoot back. Optics increases the likelihood of hitting a target, which will save ammunition. Nothing big - a compact three-four.

        A sniper does not live long without cover. This is especially true of Vintorez, or VSK, which operate at 150-200m (and not every sniper will hit 400). If a pilot shot down over the enemy's territory sees the enemy at such a distance, then he needs to sit "like a mouse under a broom" - maybe he will carry it. smile A sniper scope greatly narrows the field of view, and in an open clash, it is more likely to be a factor of premature death, and not an advantage, since in order to quickly transfer fire at figures moving in dashes, one must have not only sniper training, but also serious skill. By itself, the shot immediately "loudly declares itself" that in a certain direction (easily identified by the wound channel), no further than 200m is the shooter. A helicopter, armored personnel carrier, etc. are immediately sent there, or (and) they make a detour from all sides, cutting off the retreat paths, not sticking out and slightly shooting from shelters for ostrastvo, waiting for equipment. The pursuers have nowhere to rush. It is just profitable for them to wait for the evacuation group in order to "fill up" (or even capture) more people.
        The chestnut chambered for 9x18 weighs 100 grams less than 9A91, with cartridges of course the difference is larger, but not critical. The article mentions the issue of weight. For an extra 2 kg, is this the end of the world?

        Chestnut is a light, compact weapon, well balanced for firing with one hand. His accuracy is much higher than that of Stechkin. A point-blank line, even 9x18, will stop any predator (and this is an extremely unlikely situation). Weapons for the pilot are needed exclusively for protection in the event of an unexpected collision, i.e. - in close combat. Here, the LCC can be very useful (for pilots, as a rule, very weak shooting training). There is, of course, a problem with switching on (at least it must be combined with a fuse), since the lost seconds in close combat will most likely lead to fatal consequences. The question of camouflage in such situations is generally inappropriate, and noiselessness is just sufficient, since when searching, usually small (3-4 people) groups work (if this is not a military operation, of course) at a fairly large distance. The main thing here is that the enemy does not have time to shoot at you. Dogs are now full of all chemistry invented (and all this is lightweight and compact).
        A pair of mines and grenades will never hurt if the pilot is trained to set mines. The truth is, for me, something needs less so that the foot is torn off, but more in quantity.

        You can't take too many anyway, and even more so, the enemy still has to manage to step on these mines (there won't be much time to mask them, and a special skill is also needed). So, as the comrades suggested here, it must be something like a "Medallion" - jumping and with a remote fuse.
        As far as I understand, a pilot shot down over enemy territory must leave the landing site as soon as possible and move to a pre-agreed area to the evacuation point. To cover the retreat, the landing site is covered with powder from dogs and mines, such as "Medallion", are installed (which self-destruct in a couple of days). In movement, you must make every effort for secrecy and, in no case, without special need, do not "smack" right and left around everything that moves. When you move quickly over rough terrain, then each gram of luggage soon "turns" into ten. If, on the way, he unexpectedly meets an enemy who noticed him, then it will be a short-term close combat, in which the advantage will be with those who are able to shoot accurately and quickly transfer fire. And here "Kashtan", in my opinion, has all the advantages over other models (and even more so over "Vintorez" and VSK).
        1. Shopping Mall
          25 September 2019 15: 36
          0
          Quote: whowhy
          Do not attack, but shoot back. Optics increases the likelihood of hitting a target, which will save ammunition. Nothing big - a compact three-four.

          A sniper does not live without cover for a long time. This is especially true for Vintorez, or VSK, which work on 150-200m (and not every sniper gets on 400).


          And what is not 50-100? 200-300 meters is the normal range for such a weapon, the bullet is heavy, does not blow down with the wind, only the trajectories are more curved and the flight speed is less. For the purpose of reaching you, not to mention the still, this is not so critical.

          Quote: whowhy
          If a pilot shot down over the enemy's territory sees the enemy at such a distance, then he needs to sit "like a mouse under a broom" - maybe he will carry it. smile


          It will be different in every situation.

          Quote: whowhy
          Sniper scope greatly reduces the field of view


          There is no normal triple, this is not 12-20 times.

          Quote: whowhy
          and in an open clash, it is more likely to be a factor in premature death, and not an advantage, since in order to quickly transfer fire at figures moving in dashes, one must have not only sniper training, but also serious skill. By itself, the shot immediately "loudly declares itself" that in a certain direction (easily identified by the wound channel), no further than 200m is the shooter. A helicopter, armored personnel carrier, etc. are immediately sent there, or (and) they make a detour from all sides, cutting off the retreat paths, not sticking out and slightly shooting from shelters for ostrastvo, waiting for equipment. The pursuers have nowhere to rush. It is just profitable for them to wait for the evacuation group in order to "fill up" (or even capture) more people.


          Do you seriously think that if someone suddenly slams near you, will you just run to look for a wound canal? At first, everyone will slander, then they will carefully search for the shooter or shoot in white light.

          All of the above can be sent. And all of the above is possible only with the complete domination of the enemy in the air. A cover group can also be “covered” by attack aircraft and helicopters.

          Quote: whowhy
          The chestnut chambered for 9x18 weighs 100 grams less than 9A91, with cartridges of course the difference is larger, but not critical. The article mentions the issue of weight. For an extra 2 kg, is this the end of the world?

          Chestnut is a light, compact weapon, well balanced for firing with one hand. His accuracy is much higher than that of Stechkin. A point-blank line, even 9x18, will stop any predator (and this is an extremely unlikely situation).


          This is generally an incredible situation. Talk to the hunters about 9x18.

          Quote: whowhy
          Weapons for the pilot are needed exclusively for protection in the event of an unexpected collision, i.e. - in close combat. Here, the LCC can be very useful (for pilots, as a rule, very weak shooting training). There is, of course, a problem with switching on (at least it must be combined with a fuse), since lost seconds in close combat will most likely lead to fatal consequences.


          LITs are not needed at all, only for specific work, for example, when firing from behind a shield by special forces. If the pilot does not fall without him, then with him. From him more harm than good. If there is nothing behind, then you don’t see the point, the ray too, and you won’t hit the moving target.

          Quote: whowhy
          The issue of camouflage in such situations is generally inappropriate, and the noiselessness is just sufficient, since when searching, usually small (3-4 man) groups work (if this is not a military operation, of course) at a fairly large distance. The main thing here is that the enemy does not have time to shoot at you.


          But what about armored personnel carriers and helicopters? It’s more logical to slap a group of 3-4 people from 200 meters from 9А91 than to shoot point-blank 9х18. And I assure you, if they are prepared, there is no chance near. One or two maximum. And with 200 meters there is a chance that they will lose pace and track.

          Quote: whowhy
          Dogs are now full of all chemistry invented (and all this is lightweight and compact).


          Dogs are different, and work on the bottom track, and on the top. Chemistry does not guarantee (although it is certainly needed).
      2. 3danimal
        3danimal 25 September 2019 13: 34
        0
        Against large animals - .460)
        As for 9x39 .. The difference in price may interfere. And with a resource a question. And so, a suitable cartridge weapon.
        Instead of optics, a collimator of 1,5-2X is possible
    2. garri-lin
      garri-lin 24 September 2019 21: 07
      0
      The medal is better. More modern and more radius. And the weight seems to be less.
      1. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 24 September 2019 21: 54
        +1
        To equip pilots with a Vintorez normal and correct idea
        But you can also use PPNUMX with a silencer, it will work until 2000 m,
        1. Shopping Mall
          24 September 2019 22: 09
          +1
          Quote: Michael HORNET
          To equip pilots with a Vintorez normal and correct idea
          But you can also use PPNUMX with a silencer, it will work until 2000 m,


          For PP2000, this is the maximum range, and for weapons under 9x39, nothing at all. PMSM, the longer the distance, the better. If it is necessary to reduce the size, then 9A91 or CP-3 "Whirlwind" is better, the range is less than that of Vintorez, but the dimensions are also smaller. And then there is the AK-9
          1. Droid
            Droid 25 September 2019 09: 22
            0
            Quote: AVM
            For the PP2000, this is the ultimate range, but for weapons under 9x39 there’s nothing at all.

            Yah? And what makes 9x39 so different? The ballista is worse than the usual 9x19.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 25 September 2019 18: 00
              +1
              Wrong, better. The bullet is twice as heavy (16g). The difference is especially noticeable at 50m or more.
          2. 3danimal
            3danimal 25 September 2019 13: 35
            0
            Sight - definitely change to simpler / newer))
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 25 September 2019 00: 49
          0
          And why LTSU? Bombs in a movie show? There is no better way to unmask.


          And you don’t have to invent anything, for a long time there is - a parachute on which the downed pilot descends.
    3. kapitan92
      kapitan92 24 September 2019 21: 48
      +1
      Quote: whowhy
      And to cover the retreat from the landing site, the kit can include something like PM-2 "Edek" (three to four pieces),

      I'll correct it a bit. All the same, POM 2 "Edema". It weighs 1,5 kg. Do you offer 6 kg to "push" into NAZ?
      Quote: whowhy
      with manual activation.

      This is POM 2P
      Quote: whowhy
      And they write that for this mine they developed a smart fuse that responds to the steps of only a person, and a person with a weapon.

      This is already POM 3 "Medallion". hi
  9. Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 24 September 2019 22: 44
    +3
    The main problem with pilots is that they can only run away. Keeping the defense in the field even from the VOKhR branch with a machine gun will be very short. And running away is easier with what is smaller and easier.

    At the same time, there is no big difficulty to put a full-size machine in a chair.

    At the same time, it is foolish to invent a machine specifically for pilots, of which several thousand pieces will be produced.

    Conclusion: in a holster on a suit, hang any available gun, and in a chair container a full-sized ordinary machine gun.


    It will turn out to find a chair and get a gun - good. No - the gun is immediately with you, you can make legs.
    1. Shopping Mall
      24 September 2019 23: 04
      0
      Quote: Sancho_SP
      The main problem with pilots is that they can only run away. Keeping the defense in the field even from the VOKhR branch with a machine gun will be very short. And running away is easier with what is smaller and easier.

      At the same time, there is no big difficulty to put a full-size machine in a chair.

      At the same time, it is foolish to invent a machine specifically for pilots, of which several thousand pieces will be produced.

      Conclusion: in a holster on a suit, hang any available gun, and in a chair container a full-sized ordinary machine gun.


      It will turn out to find a chair and get a gun - good. No - the gun is immediately with you, you can make legs.


      Only the gun and the machine should be with a silencer. So it will be more convenient to run away.

      Defense is probably possible in a hopeless situation if there is a chance that a "support group" will come.
  10. Avior
    Avior 24 September 2019 23: 13
    +4
    a significant factor is the extreme limited ammunition, replenishment which is likely to be nowhere

    Cartridge 4,6 * 30 - weight about 6,5 grams, breaks through standard NATO body armor at a distance of 150 m, effective firing range 200 m. How much ammunition can be carried in NAZ and with you?
    The store on 20 cartridges weighs 100 gr.
    MP7 under this cartridge weighs 1,8 kg. You can keep it fastened, and not in Naz, with a certain supply of ammunition, in addition, in Naz, then immediately after landing it will be ready to fight back, and the ammunition supply will be sufficient.
    Why reinvent the wheel?
    Only recently discussed this idea here and here again.
    Absolutely true in the article, the task of the pilot to hide and wait for a group of rescuers. He will be alone in the enemy environment and he is not up to the battles.
    In this case, the pilot enters hostile territory, with significant numerical and fire superiority of the enemy. Accordingly, camouflage will be the pilot’s best ally, and fighting the pilot is best only if absolutely necessary, taking into account the minimum unmasking of his position, which requires a silencer on the weapon.

    what position, how will he lead one battle against the group? He is surrounded in two counts, and then everything ...
    Started for health, ended for peace.
    taking into account the provision of minimal unmasking of their position, which requires a silencer on the weapon.

    Until his position is found, and no one sees him, he should sit hiding, or, if it is highly likely that they will find out over time, leave as quickly as possible until they are discovered, and try to break the distance with possible pursuers, using that has not yet been discovered.
    Shoot at least from a noisy trunk, at least from a noiseless one - give yourself away.
    If they did find it, then his tasks were often to shoot back, trying to bring the pursuers off the pace, to break the distance with them until they lost eye contact and then run away with all their might, trying to find a new shelter and wait for the group.
    He simply has no other options for survival.
    hi
    1. Shopping Mall
      25 September 2019 08: 51
      0
      Quote: Avior
      a significant factor is the extreme limited ammunition, replenishment which is likely to be nowhere

      Cartridge 4,6 * 30 - weight about 6,5 grams, breaks through standard NATO body armor at a distance of 150 m, effective firing range 200 m. How much ammunition can be carried in NAZ and with you?
      The store on 20 cartridges weighs 100 gr.
      MP7 under this cartridge weighs 1,8 kg. You can keep it fastened, and not in Naz, with a certain supply of ammunition, in addition, in Naz, then immediately after landing it will be ready to fight back, and the ammunition supply will be sufficient.


      PDW weapons are a good topic, the next article about small arms is planned about them. But PMSM weapons of those who want to not be found should be silent. With all the advantages of PDW, its range is 200 meters, and for weapons under the cartridge 9x39 - 400 meters. PDW’s ammunition consumption will be higher, in wooded areas 4,6 light bullets will lose even more in range and accuracy due to branches, in fact there will be no difference with PPNUMX with its 2000 meters.

      Quote: Avior
      Absolutely true in the article, the task of the pilot to hide and wait for a group of rescuers. He will be alone in the enemy environment and he is not up to the battles.
      what position, how will he lead one battle against the group? He is surrounded in two counts, and then everything ...

      Until his position is found, and no one sees him, he should sit hiding, or, if it is highly likely that they will find out over time, leave as quickly as possible until they are discovered, and try to break the distance with possible pursuers, using that has not yet been discovered.


      No weapon is stopping him from doing this; leave if you can, shooting is not necessary.

      Quote: Avior
      Shoot at least from a noisy trunk, at least from a noiseless one - give yourself away.


      It’s one thing to say that someone is shooting from somewhere, and from a relatively large distance, and silently. And another thing is to shoot back from a distance of 100-200 meters, when the position is instantly spotted by sound and muzzle flame and processed from a heavy machine gun / mortar / RPG / grenade launcher. Just squeeze to the ground with automatic fire and throw grenades.

      This contradicts:

      Quote: Avior
      If they did find it, then his tasks were often to shoot back, trying to bring the pursuers off the pace, to break the distance with them until they lost eye contact and then run away with all their might, trying to find a new shelter and wait for the group.


      Silent weapons allow, for example, to neutralize the dog, to press the enemy to the ground, and while he is trying to determine the position of the shooter just break the distance. And it’s better not to make eye contact at all. If there is a risk of detection, then a silent defeat of one or two targets will force the enemy to slow down, take cover, look around. And on a visually detected target with PP, they will rush like a dog pack on a cat.

      And with PP you can only die heroically.
      1. Avior
        Avior 25 September 2019 09: 38
        0
        who wants to not be found

        must hide and not show himself.
        and if you start shooting, albeit silently, then someone might guess that it’s not for nothing that someone is
        No weapon is stopping him from doing this; leave if you can, shooting is not necessary.

        until you are discovered, shooting is not necessary, it is simply contraindicated.
        It’s one thing to say that someone is shooting from somewhere, and from a relatively large distance, and silently. And another thing is to shoot from a distance of 100-200 meters, when the position is instantly spotted by sound and muzzle flame and processed from a heavy machine gun / mortar / RPG / grenade launcher.

        therefore, from the position of shooting and fighting, it is categorically contraindicated.
        or do you think you'll spend hours fighting silently and no one will guess where you are hiding?
        No, the group will very quickly find you not by the sound of the shots, so by the arriving bullets, it will surround you, and
        scattering attention from one direction by fire, from another it throws grenades.
        you can’t fight 360 degrees alone, no matter what weapon you have
        therefore, there is only one way out - to run and hide.
        Silent weapons allow, for example, to neutralize the dog, to press the enemy to the ground, and while he is trying to determine the position of the shooter just break the distance.

        the dog is neutralized by chemistry, and if the enemy does not know that you are here, why would you shoot him? to find out? interesting tactics ....
        And it’s better not to make eye contact at all.

        how not to bring it if you, instead of quietly hiding from an enemy who is not aware of your presence, find yourself? and after that he will crumble in a chain and begin to surround you and look out for you. he knows the general direction, and looking for your position is a matter of time. especially if you run after that. and you can’t shoot accurately while running, they won’t lie for a long time. And if you stop lying in one place, then you will be covered very quickly.
        And on a visually detected target with PP, they will rush like a dog pack on a cat.

        exactly, they will attack you as soon as you find yourself. and if you run, it’s impossible to shoot like that on the run, and even intense running alone doesn’t really allow sniper shooting during a short stop. and from the PP there is a chance, not sparing the cartridges, with intense fire to make them slow down.
  11. DesToeR
    DesToeR 25 September 2019 10: 45
    0
    Quote: AVM
    If it is necessary to reduce the size, then 9A91 or CP-3 "Whirlwind" is better, the range is less than that of Vintorez, but the dimensions are also smaller.

    I do not know how 9A91 has, but the Whirlwind, Vintorez and Shaft require very thorough cleaning in operation. As users say, preferably no later than an hour after the end of the shooting. Those. if the pilot fired several shots, it is necessary to clean the weapon as soon as possible, which is practically impossible in his (pilot's) situation.
    Quote: AVM
    And still there is AK-9

    Yes there was, or rather it was. But then what is its advantage over the AKS-74U with a silencer? Same size, same weight, but more expensive and less common subsonic cartridge ...
    1. Shopping Mall
      25 September 2019 11: 27
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: AVM
      If it is necessary to reduce the size, then 9A91 or CP-3 "Whirlwind" is better, the range is less than that of Vintorez, but the dimensions are also smaller.

      I do not know how 9A91 has, but the Whirlwind, Vintorez and Shaft require very thorough cleaning in operation. As users say, preferably no later than an hour after the end of the shooting. Those. if the pilot fired several shots, it is necessary to clean the weapon as soon as possible, which is practically impossible in his (pilot's) situation.


      All the same, not after every two or three shots. I do not think that the special forces constantly clean them right during the military operation, rather upon their return.

      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: AVM
      And still there is AK-9

      Yes there was, or rather it was. But then what is its advantage over the AKS-74U with a silencer? Same size, same weight, but more expensive and less common subsonic cartridge ...


      The fact that for the AKS-74U with a silencer ammunition with a heavy subsonic bullet is not available, and with ordinary silencers it is of little use. But they do not release them because for small bullets, even in the heavier version, they have too little efficiency and range of destruction. For this, they made 9x39.
  12. DesToeR
    DesToeR 25 September 2019 12: 51
    0
    Quote: AVM
    All the same, not after every two or three shots.

    That is, after only two or three shots.
    Quote: AVM
    I do not think that the special forces constantly clean them right during the military operation, rather upon their return.

    So special forces and makes just a couple of shots from such weapons.
    Quote: AVM
    But they do not release them because for small bullets, even in the heavier version, they have too little efficiency and range of destruction.

    And in what scenario does a downed pilot use a weapon with a silencer at a distance of more than 50 m from the target? The advantages of the AKS-74U before the AK-9 are very high: removing the silencer you get weapons with supersonic bullets with a much greater effective range. Especially for such an unprepared user as a pilot.
    1. 3danimal
      3danimal 25 September 2019 13: 41
      +1
      Wrong. Then you need to take stores equipped with subsonic and "Normal" bullets 5.45. And in subsonic, they strongly lose 9x39 in terms of slaughter.
    2. 3danimal
      3danimal 25 September 2019 13: 42
      +1
      From AKSU-74, aimed fire is more difficult to conduct than from full-sized.
    3. Shopping Mall
      25 September 2019 13: 47
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: AVM
      All the same, not after every two or three shots.

      That is, after only two or three shots.


      The question is, why do they need to be cleaned right away?

      Option 1 - it clogs with soot and immediately stops shooting, but then, how did this weapon pass the test?

      2 option - because of poor-quality materials, corrosion from powder deposits begins, shells form, accuracy drops, so in order for the weapon to become worthless, it must be cleaned. But this is a matter of weeks and months until the trunk is ushatannya.

      PMSM is the second option more likely.

      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: AVM
      I do not think that the special forces constantly clean them right during the military operation, rather upon their return.

      So special forces and makes just a couple of shots from such weapons.


      A couple of tens, hundreds, rather. I do not think that Val is intended for two or three shots.

      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: AVM
      But they do not release them because for small bullets, even in the heavier version, they have too little efficiency and range of destruction.

      And in what scenario is the downed pilot using a weapon with a silencer at a distance of more than 50m to the target?


      And he needs to wait until they come close? To throw grenades?

      Imagine yourself at the scene of the chase, and they fire at you from silent weapons. This is a pilot? Reconnaissance and sabotage group? Rescue group? A variety of scenarios can arise in battle.

      My argument is simple. If the task of the pilot is to hide before meeting the rescue team, i.e. minimum unmasking, then all his equipment must meet this goal. Including weapons.

      Quote: DesToeR
      The advantages of the AKS-74U before the AK-9 are very high: removing the silencer you get weapons with supersonic bullets with a much greater effective range.


      Removing the muffler and changing the store. And recall, the silent 5,45 cartridges are not available due to low efficiency.

      The effectiveness of the AKS-74U and weapons under 9x39 at short distances 200-300 meters is comparable. And in the green so 9x39 will be even better.

      Quote: DesToeR
      Especially for such an unprepared user as a pilot.


      A pilot must be prepared. The survival course is very important, including use of small arms. No gods burn pots. In order for pilots to use their weapons from NAZ, you just don’t have to squeeze cartridges for training. If you select at least 40-60 of them per month, and preferably 100, and pass the test on 200-300 meters, then in six months or a year they will use it confidently.

      I also found an interesting review about weapons under 9x39

      VSK-94 and 9a-91, these are workhorses, weapons of special forces leading active "work", it is more reliable, less prone to pollution and tolerates it better, the design has large tolerances. That is, 9a-91 is a kind of Kalashnikov assault rifle in the world of silent rifles, it is less accurate, it has a slightly shorter barrel, and the accuracy of barrel manufacturing is lower, hence the lower accuracy. For that, they can hammer in nails (not necessary, but possibly), drop it into the harsh Russian kaku and operate it in harsh field conditions. It shoots less accurately, muffles the sound worse (about twice as loud, that is, somewhere from 30-50 meters in the field, it is already clearly audible) and is made much rougher (stores from one machine gun do not fit another, apparently they are not collected so that cars, but rather moonshine stills), for that it can be hidden under a jacket, it can be dropped without panic in the shower, or you can remove the muffler, just like cleaning it after each shooting is not necessary (preferably). Brutal, reliable and good, it was with his help that in the 90s our specialists were able to arm themselves with a special machine gun in droves.
      The weapon of the BCC system is the antipode of 9a-91, accurate and well-coordinated, but more fragile and noticeably higher in price, the barrel of a real specialist. But the trouble is, two-week climbing in the mountains will be an insurmountable test for him, if, at the same time, you will also often shoot. Parts are made to close tolerances, so dust and deposits seriously depress the entire system. The weapon is fragile, the receiver cover is thin, you can even try to push it with your finger (strong finger). Objectively speaking, the VSS is more accurate, it muffles the sound better and even has some advantage in the rate of fire, it is good for short sorties and special operations in "humane" conditions, of course, it is made for military conditions and is not a weapon "fifa", but we must not forget that that it is a complex tool for delicate work, it does not tolerate cruel, and sometimes even barbaric, exploitation.
      Ultimately, the main difference is the price, 9a-91 is much cheaper than AS "VAL", in the early stages it was equipped with an expansion joint, which excluded the possibility of using a silencer, since it was a compact machine gun chambered for a powerful cartridge, this weapon is massive (thanks to its creation, SOBRs and OMONs managed to arm themselves with special weapons, since there was no dough on the shaft, and a compact machine gun under 9x39mm was simply necessary), not expensive and hardy, but an AC, a machine for specialists, not for long marches over rough terrain, but for performing point tasks, complex and delicate.
  13. DesToeR
    DesToeR 25 September 2019 16: 27
    +1
    Quote: AVM
    The question is, why do they need to be cleaned right away?

    Again. I am not a "user" of these samples, but only express an idea why these samples may not be suitable for a downed pilot in the most likely scenario of events. If my memory serves me, then REVEDOS (the video is on YouTube) described the first option you proposed, adjusted for the thickening of the lubricant as a result of a chemical reaction with combustion products. While you shoot - everything works well, but if the "sample" is "at rest" for about an hour - there are difficulties.
    Quote: AVM
    A couple of tens, hundreds, rather. I do not think that Val is intended for two or three shots.

    It must be understood that in the VSS troops it is an auxiliary weapon designed for covert destruction in one (very short) battle / operation phase. Where are the hundreds of rounds from? For one sentry or patrol? And a range of 400m is a myth - it’s difficult to get further than 100m in a running growth figure, and for 5,45x39 or 7,62x39 you do not even need to take the lead.

    Quote: AVM
    The effectiveness of the AKS-74U and weapons under 9x39 at short distances 200-300 meters is comparable. And in the green so 9x39 will be even better.

    Is 200-300m a short distance? Statistics say that most modern clashes with automatic individual weapons with "supersonic bullets" occur at ranges from 80 to 200 m. Efficiency is an aggregate metric. If you cannot hit because you shoot with a subsonic cartridge in a situation where a supersonic one would hit, then what is the effectiveness of the conversation?
    Quote: AVM
    A pilot must be prepared.

    Yes ... Just what? Shoot on the run like a sniper? Survive the jungle as a commando. And when to fly / shoot down / bomb? After landing outside the plane, this is a stealth mission without any ifs.
  14. DesToeR
    DesToeR 25 September 2019 18: 07
    0
    Quote: 3danimal
    Wrong.

    And what is wrong?
    Quote: 3danimal
    Then you need to take stores equipped with subsonic and "Normal" bullets 5.45.

    And what's the problem with putting one magazine loaded with just such ammunition? You can even highlight with color (or capacity?) If necessary. If these cartridges are needed in exceptional cases, you can also loose 10 pieces. pour or tape the bag to the "glushak". That would be when the pilot threw this useless half-kilogram "device" so immediately with the "ballast".
    Quote: 3danimal
    And in subsonic, they strongly lose 9x39 in terms of slaughter.

    But can we save a pilot or shoot enemies with the help of a specialist, the cost of training of which often exceeds the price of MBT with the whole crew?
    Quote: 3danimal
    From AKSU-74, aimed fire is more difficult to conduct than from full-sized.

    Tell me, what makes it easier to hit a moving target at a distance of 100m? From AM "Vikhr" / AS "Val" or AKS-74U? Make allowances for the fact that the pilot does not use small arms at all in his daily service.
  15. psiho117
    psiho117 26 September 2019 16: 01
    0
    Quote: AVM
    There is such a nuance that the United States simply has no 9A91 / Whirlwind weapons.
    is, full. Upper is removed from any AR-ki, and you put a new one under any subsonic cartridge - starting with .300 AAC Blackout and ending with .458 SOCOM
    1. Shopping Mall
      27 September 2019 10: 25
      0
      Quote: psiho117
      Quote: AVM
      There is such a nuance that the United States simply has no 9A91 / Whirlwind weapons.
      is, full. Upper is removed from any AR-ki, and you put a new one under any subsonic cartridge - starting with .300 AAC Blackout and ending with .458 SOCOM


      .300 AAC Blackout is not bad, as for me, but it appeared much later than our 9x39, as I understand it, the weapon-cartridge bundle is not well developed, there are reliability problems on the fly:
      https://www.alloutdoor.com/2014/05/22/300-aac-blackout/

      and the second - an unsuccessful attempt - expensive, huge in size (10 pieces in a store of sizes for 30 ptarons 5,56x45 and "the energy of a subsonic cartridge is sometimes not enough to" knock down "a person if a bullet hits a bulletproof vest at a slight angle

      https://shkolazhizni.ru/law/articles/70656/

      In general, as I understood from the last link, after the operation in Somalia, "they" just thought about an effective silent weapon, but something didn't work out.

      PMSM, the main obstacle to silent weapons in the armed forces, incl. in the NAZ Air Force, there is a fear of its wide distribution, associated losses, and the appearance on the black market of effective weapons that will fall to crime and terrorist organizations. The problem is that silencers are becoming an integral part of hunting weapons in some countries of the world, which means that they will spread one way or another.
      1. psiho117
        psiho117 29 September 2019 17: 59
        0
        I said exactly what I wanted to say wassat Exactly Upper from any AR-ki take off, and put a new one under any subsonic cartridge - and the cartridge can be really any - the American market is oversaturated with them: There are subsonic .308, there is a .300 VinMag, there is 7,62x39, there is a .300 Whisper, not to mention all sorts of "wild cats".
        I mean, they simply do not need additional weapons under a subsonic cartridge - the AR platform allows you to sculpt what you need out of yourself.
        .300 AAC Blackout is not bad, as for me, but it appeared much later than our 9x39, as I understand it, the weapon-cartridge combination is not worked out enough, there are problems with reliability

        Blackout is an American copy of the earlier European Whisper, designed as a hunter for rifles. Therefore, at first there were problems with the use of subsonic cartridges with an AR-full-time automation circuit.
        As soon as they stopped praying for it, and switched to a normal gas piston, everything worked.
        the energy of the .458 SOCOM cartridge is sometimes not enough to “knock down” a person if the bullet hits the body armor at a slight angle

        Yes, fairy tales are all wassat It’s kind of like a Koltovsky .45, on the Eastern Front - supposedly it didn’t break through jackets and quilted jackets.
        There, the subsonic Sokom 600 grain bullet (39g !!!), with a muzzle energy of 1800J, damn it, it's like three 9x39mm, much more?
      2. psiho117
        psiho117 29 September 2019 19: 02
        0
        Damn, but now I remembered - in the 80s, Stoner had an experienced silent machine gun (I'm not talking about the SR-25) under a subsonic 7,62 cartridge.
        Based on one of the AR platforms.
        For a long time I met this Old, even in some kind of paper reference, before the era of the Internet bully .
        I remember the photo in black and white, it looks like an arch, the barrel length is standard, but the barrel is thick, with an integrated silencer.
        And the cartridge 7,62 is some kind of subsonic. Either original, or .308th

        In short, I’m why - xs who was there even earlier in this topic, Stoner is still an innovator who was ahead of time.
        But most likely - both at us and at them these works simultaneously began, but at us - went into series, and at them - not. And then the app-lover scheme was brought to mind, and now a separate weapon is simply not required.
  16. Reserve buildbat
    Reserve buildbat 28 September 2019 10: 08
    -1
    Thank! From the heart! Two-thirds of the article was confused, then frankly neighing!
    "Considering that all Russian, supposed to be military, pistols are designed at least to work with the 7N21 cartridge, there is no problem of weapon destruction due to inappropriate ammunition, and the need to distribute another 9x21 mm ammunition raises certain doubts."
    The author is not aware that in the middle of the 1990's in mattress they came to the conclusion that 9x19 is already weak, despite the versions of 9 Para +, 9 Para ++ and other similar ones? 9x21 - the most reasonable option for the army. For the police - PM - ideal.
    And to give the pilots BCC or VSK-94 - this is generally a song! Let's better provide each pilot with a tank! Yes, not simple, but with C-500 screwed to the tower!
    1. Shopping Mall
      29 September 2019 14: 51
      +1
      Quote: stock buildbat
      Thank! From the heart! Two-thirds of the article was confused, then frankly neighing!
      "Considering that all Russian, supposed to be military, pistols are designed at least to work with the 7N21 cartridge, there is no problem of weapon destruction due to inappropriate ammunition, and the need to distribute another 9x21 mm ammunition raises certain doubts."
      The author is not aware that in the middle of the 1990's in mattress they came to the conclusion that 9x19 is already weak, despite the versions of 9 Para +, 9 Para ++ and other similar ones? 9x21 - the most reasonable option for the army.


      Really -
      in the middle of the 1990's in mattress they came to the conclusion that 9x19 is already weak, despite the versions of 9 Para +, 9 Para ++ and other similar

      and at the same time they stubbornly take samples under the 9x19, including the latter, as an army pistol.

      The article has a table comparing the characteristics of 7n31, 7n21 and 7n29, on the basis of which it is concluded that the parameters 9x21 are comparable to those of the reinforced 9x19.

      Quote: stock buildbat
      For the police - PM - ideal.


      Only from the point of view of wearing comfort, if worn, but not used, for the precinct just. Or apply against those with whom the GB will cope.

      And if there are 2-3 decisively-minded people with knives or a criminal with a fighting dog, and 8 cartridges of PMa may not be enough, unlike 17 cartridges of 9x19.

      Quote: stock buildbat
      And to give the pilots BCC or VSK-94 - this is generally a song! Let's better provide each pilot with a tank! Yes, not simple, but with C-500 screwed to the tower!


      Following your logic, is the AKS-74U a "castrated" tank then?
      1. Reserve buildbat
        Reserve buildbat 29 September 2019 15: 09
        -3
        Regarding 9x19 - in mattresses they simply could not yet develop a cartridge like our 9x21.
        Regarding PM, mattresses recognized that PM is the best option for the police, since its stopping effect is much greater than that of 9x19, the accuracy is higher, the probability of a rebound is lower. And the 9X19 is more prone to ricochet, has a less stopping effect and large pistol magazines cause their cops to scorch in all directions without looking, which leads to excessive ammunition and increased danger to outsiders. You just need to be able to shoot.
        According to the AKS-74U, it is an excellent vehicle for short-term collisions at a distance of up to 200m. And VSS and VSK-94 are sniper rifles, more expensive and "delicate". They are for other purposes.
        1. psiho117
          psiho117 29 September 2019 17: 34
          +1
          Quote: Stroibat stock
          Regarding 9x19 - in mattresses they simply could not yet develop a cartridge like our 9x21.

          don’t say anything stupid - they adopted the FBI 10mm Auto, with its incredible 700-800 J muzzle energy (is it a joke - at a distance of 90 m it saved more energy than that of .45 ACP upon departure).
          So what? Later, this cartridge was supplanted by its own lightweight stepson - .40 S&W. He was blamed for excessive recoil when firing a pistol by the average shooter.

          The same bullshit with any "nadimadrolny" 9mm - the average shooter is simply not able to confidently control the weapon when firing.
          And that is why the 9x18 PM cartridge was recognized as one of the best for service weapons - it is easily controlled, even when firing from a clumsy Makar - and not at all for some superior stopping power there.
          Absolutely any modern expansive ammunition will surpass it in stopping action.

          You just need to be able to shoot.
          the problem is that the average opera does not know how to shoot. We do not have America, we have for 1 seeded cartridge, or God forbid - an extra shot - the soul is turned inside out.
          9x19 is more prone to ricochet, has a less stopping effect and large pistol magazines cause their cops to scorch in all directions without looking, which leads to an excessive consumption of ammunition and increased danger to outsiders.
          Lord, what nonsense. As practice has shown - a large store allows you to compensate for the curvature of the arrow. And the ricochets are just at the "shortcut", not the pistols.
          1. Reserve buildbat
            Reserve buildbat 29 September 2019 18: 59
            -3
            "What nonsense" laughing You instead of broadcasting your nonsense, read the findings of the mattress
  17. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 3 October 2019 00: 50
    0
    Quote: Monster_Fat
    one i see terrible bluing

    Oh, if only burnishing.
    I had to deal with an imported short barrel, the shot was relatively small, in tolerable conditions, but not a single sticking, failure, wedge, etc. "surprises". With a high quality of workmanship of parts (look at least under a microscope), perfect bluing.
    They know how to combine the "foppish" appearance with functionality and reliability.
    And our military-industrial culture of production, as in that joke about partisans derailing trains until the end of the 70s, everything continues to believe that "processing of welded seams is a bourgeois business"and "does not affect accuracy".
  18. Radikal
    Radikal 10 October 2019 16: 12
    0
    Submachine gun PP-2000 caliber 9x19 mm
    The photo shows how the folded butt, or rather, its focus overlaps the trigger guard on the right, which in a combat situation can prevent the finger from quickly being on the trigger - accordingly, a delay in opening fire. sad
  19. Alexfly
    Alexfly 11 January 2020 12: 18
    0
    I don’t know what to knead here, in my opinion, i.e. absolutely subjectively, as a NZ, a regular AK of 7,62 would suit the pilots, it could be in the form of a bulpap, the cartridge is still rather weak, it is better to have a longer barrel, because it’s not only to shoot jerboas and not bother.
  20. Alexfly
    Alexfly 11 January 2020 12: 24
    0
    For example, the Ukrainian Brothers have Malyuk, not a bad old idea at all, just right for NZ