Carabiner kit and attachments for a promising pistol

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Article “A promising army pistol based on the PDW concept” we examined the alleged appearance of an army pistol - personal weapons a professional soldier who can be used against the enemy in personal armor protection (IPP), in case of loss or failure of the main weapon - an assault rifle, as well as in other situations that may arise during the unpredictable development of the situation on the battlefield. For example, in the event of a collision with the enemy at point-blank range, when the cartridges in the machine shop ran out. In the course of an intense dynamic battle in a city, indoors, this situation is quite real, like many others.


Carabiner Kit KPOS Scout Advanced




Whatever the main weapon, its reliability cannot be absolute; accordingly, a situation may arise when a second weapon is required. The grenades alone, which are often offered to replace the pistol, cannot be solved; it is foolish to undermine oneself and the enemy in a situation where everything could be resolved with a couple of dozen shots from the pistol.

A small digression about PM


Many speak out about the fact that the Makarov pistol (PM) is the easiest to carry, the likelihood of the need to use it is small, which means that more is not needed. Yes, it is easier to “wear” the PM than a modern army pistol, but only wear it. But its effectiveness in the situation described above may be absolutely insufficient. In this matter, I don’t even trust the opinion of the combatants who had a gun, but never used it, and on this basis they believe that it can be abandoned or “leave the good old” PM. Many have never used a fire extinguisher or a first aid kit in a car, but this does not mean that they should not be there, such decisions are made not on the basis of personal experience, but on the basis of a comprehensive analysis of previous and predictable situations.

I consider it quite justified the pressure exerted on US Army personnel by insurance companies when, in case of injury or death, payments will not be made in the absence of all the elements of standard equipment required to be worn - bulletproof vest, pistol, flashlight, etc. The consequences of arbitrariness in the equipment of fighters before going on a mission are well shown in the movie Black Hawk Down.

And yes, for those who have a burden to carry any personal weapon larger than the PM, discussed in the previous material, an army pistol may well be fired in both full-size and compact “general” versions, with a magazine on 14-16 cartridges and a reduced barrel length.

The proposed promising pistol of maximum parameters can be used not only by linear army units, but by special forces or other power structures with special statutory tasks. In this case, the gun may require additional equipment with various attachments and equipment, as well as special ammunition, which we will discuss below.

carabiner kit


One of the devices that significantly increase the efficiency of firing a pistol is a product called a “carbine kit”. In a sense, its prototype can be considered such a product as a holster-butt, which was produced, for example, for Mauser C-96 and APS pistols. The accuracy of shooting from the specified weapon with an attached holster-butt is noticeably increased, but its bulkiness to wear levels out all the advantages it offers.

A modern carabiner kit is designed to increase the convenience of holding weapons when shooting from hand and from shoulder to shoulder, to increase the length of the sighting line, and to provide the possibility of installing additional accessories.

The most popular karabiner kit kits were received by Israeli manufacturers, countries whose armed forces are among the most belligerent in the world.


Presentation of the KPOS Scout kit for the Glock-17-19 pistols from FAB Defense


CAA RONI carabiner kit


Many manufacturers produced carbine kits, even the Izhevsk Mechanical Plant developed a carbine kit for Makarov’s pistol.


An additional module for PM-based pistols from the Izhevsk Mechanical Plant


The question arises: why do we need a carabiner kit, isn’t it easier to immediately take a submachine gun (PP)? But the same question can be rephrased in another way: what are the global advantages of a submachine gun over a pistol in a carbine kit? Slightly larger initial bullet energy due to longer barrel length and burst mode?

Submachine guns, which are significantly superior to pistols chambered for the same cartridge in terms of initial bullet energy, have weight and size characteristics approaching compact versions of machine guns and assault rifles, which have even much higher characteristics. And compact PPs will be comparable in performance to a pistol in a carbine kit. At a cost, a submachine gun will be several times more expensive than a carbine kit.

I do not urge to abandon submachine guns, they will have their own niche, but small-sized PP combination gun + carbine kit can completely displace.

In relation to the one considered in the previous material the pistol of maximum parameters, the carabiner kit can become a critical accessory, significantly increasing its capabilities. The small-caliber ammunition intended for use in a promising pistol with high velocity and a flat trajectory of the bullet will allow the pistol + carbine-kit to show characteristics comparable to PPs implemented according to the PDW concept, such as H&K MP7 or FN P-90.

It is for the pistol + carbine-kit combination that the fully automatic firing mode of the promising pistol is intended, switching to which must be carried out with increased effort. When placed in a carabiner kit, the fuse / fire selector lever must be synchronized with the external lever of the carabiner kit, with increased dimensions that increase the ease of switching it to automatic mode. The butt of a carbine-whale must be able to be fixed at angles of 90 degrees from the axis of the barrel in both directions (ideally at an arbitrary angle) and be able to be held by hand like a pistol grip. We will talk about why this is necessary below.


Model carbine kit for the pistol PL-15. This is what a carabiner kit should look like for a promising pistol of maximum parameters


What is a carabiner kit for? For example, in a situation where concealed carrying of weapons is necessary, but at the same time, in the event of a complication of the situation, it may be necessary to increase firepower. A "strapped" carbine kit can be left in a car, or stored indoors in a relatively unprotected environment, while a SMG or assault rifle can hardly be left unattended outside the gun room. Another option is the use by military personnel or employees of other law enforcement agencies, who, on duty, are not entitled to any other weapon other than a pistol.

The carbine kit gives the gun one more advantage - it significantly increases the ability to install various attachments.

Attachment


The characteristics of modern weapons largely determine the possibility of installing additional equipment on it. What equipment can increase the capabilities of a promising pistol to limit parameters?

First of all, you can remember about the laser target designator (LC). Most professional shooters will say that this accessory is not only useless, but also harmful, and in some ways they will be right. The use of the LCC in many ways discourages the shooter, while in many situations the LCC may not be of any use. For example, if you are shooting at a moving target with no obstacle behind it, the LA dot will not be visible, and to aim at the LCC you will need to either guide the beam along the ground or move the barrel from side to side to see it on the target, all these are unacceptable losses. time.

Why then do we need a LCC? It can be indispensable when shooting due to shelters or night vision goggles (with an infrared emitter), when it is inconvenient or not time to bring the gun to the line of sight of the shooter’s eyes.


Laser target designator ZENIT "Finger-4" with radiation in visible-green and in the infrared ranges. On a modern elemental base, this product can be made in minimum dimensions and weight


Also, the LCC can be useful when moving a fighter with a tactical shield and pistol, when shooting from a car, and in many other similar situations.


Moving Special Forces soldiers with an armored shield.


An equally useful accessory is a tactical underbarrel flashlight. When working indoors, they can illuminate blind areas, which often arise due to the contrast of light and shadow. The under-barrel light can be integrated with the LCC module.


Pistol of the American special forces H&K Mark-23 with a combined LTSU unit and an underbarrel lamp, and a Russian combined device ZENIT "Finger-2"


The electronic unit can be supplemented by an integrated video camera. Currently, such cameras are used for video recording cases of the use of weapons, which is already extremely important for the police and ordinary citizens, for example, as evidence of the legality of self-defense.


Various options for under-barrel video cameras, including those combined with the LTC and the tactical flashlight


But a far greater effect can be achieved by providing a video signal output to a fighter’s tactical helmet, or to a compact monitor placed on the butt of a carbine kit or on a fighter’s outfit (for example, on a hand, on Velcro). This will allow the use of weapons as a means of reconnaissance, will make it possible, without demasking and stand under the bullets of the fighter, for example, to look around the corner. At close range in the image from the video camera, a fighter can shoot at a target from behind cover using a LZU. For this purpose, the carabiner kit must be able to fix the butt at an angle of 90 degrees (ideally at an arbitrary angle) with the ability to hold the butt with a second hand with a pistol grip. Maybe it will be less convenient than shooting “around the corner” from specialized devices, but the general solution will turn out to be much more universal.

Carabiner kit and attachments for a promising pistol

Devices and methods for firing from behind cover


All of the above can be (should be) implemented both in compact versions, for placement directly on the gun, and in the option for placement on a carbine kit.

Collimator sight. Its use on pistols can be skeptical, but on a carabiner kit it can become an important addition, simplifying and increasing the speed of aiming a weapon at a target.


PKU2-PRO and P1X42 sights collimator


An important addition to a promising pistol of ultimate parameters can be a muffler. Two types of silencers can be implemented. The first should be designed to work with supersonic ammunition, in this case the sound of a shot is only partially reduced (although it can also work with subsonic ones). When flying at a speed of 750-780 m / s, the bullet of the 7,62x39 cartridge gives a sound pressure of about 84-86 dB, in our case it will be even less. The shooter can feel comfortable without headphones, there is no hearing injury when shooting indoors, on the side of the shooter the sound is not always identified as a shot.

It should be the most compact and reliable solution designed for everyday use.


Small size pistol silencer


The second silencer should be optimized for maximum sound reduction and work with heavy subsonic bullets. Considering the small caliber of cartridges planned for use in a promising pistol of limiting parameters, it will not be easy to make a subsonic bullet with high efficiency. Nevertheless, using the developments on 9x39 cartridges for silent weapons, it is quite possible to create similar ammunition in a conditional 5,45x30 caliber, with an elongated bullet weighing approximately 7-9 grams.


H&K Mark-23 and APB pistols (silent automatic pistol - silent version of the APS pistol) with full-size silencers



9X39 cartridges with extended heavy bullets


Thus, as part of the creation of a pistol of extreme parameters, in addition to the pistol itself, the weapon-cartridge complex should include several types of ammunition - supersonic with increased armor penetration and subsonic with a heavy bullet, training ammunition with a reduced cost, a carbine kit and a set of attachments. The set of attachments will include - an electronic unit, including an IR and visible range laser pointer, a flashlight and a video camera (two versions - small-sized for mounting under a pistol, and for mounting on a carbine kit), a red dot sight for a carbine kit and two types of silencers - compact for firing supersonic and subsonic ammunition and more overall to ensure the most silent firing of subsonic ammunition.

Most of the equipment listed in the article has already been sold by foreign and sometimes domestic manufacturers, and this is great. It remains only to choose the best options, to refine what needs to be improved, to implement those functions that have not yet been implemented. And most importantly - this must be done "with a single goal according to a single plan" in order to end up with a complete complex. weapon-equipment-cartridgerather than a set of blanks for independent creativity.

It may seem that the cost of this weapon-equipment-cartridge complex will be unbearable for the budget, but in reality this is far from the case. Much of the above is already included in the equipment of soldiers of modern armies, including the Russian one. Training a professional military is expensive, and the political cost of casualties during military conflicts or terrorist attacks can be much higher. What is unacceptable for a mass army of a draft type is inevitable for a professional contract army and special services. How much has the cost of aircraft increased since World War II, and how much has the cost of infantry equipment increased? But if we talk about fighters of special units, then the cost and duration of their training can be slightly less than that of pilots.

Do not forget that modern technologies often tend to become cheaper over time. Today, weapons for special forces with enhanced characteristics are being created, and tomorrow it will be possible to significantly reduce the cost of its manufacture and make weapons available for the full-scale equipment of the armed forces.
108 comments
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  1. +4
    20 October 2019 18: 07
    In addition to the previous article - A promising army pistol based on the PDW concept https://topwar.ru/163548-perspektivnyj-armejskij-pistolet-na-baze-koncepcii-pdw.html video of firing a Glock-18 automatic pistol



    It is seen that an experienced shooter can lay bullets at a target with sufficiently high accuracy and accuracy.

    It can be assumed that shooting in short bursts of two rounds will be much easier for the shooter.
    1. +18
      20 October 2019 20: 18
      Yes, the “carry” PM is easier than a modern army pistol, but only carry.
      GSH-18 is probably easier.
      One of the devices that significantly increases the efficiency of firing a pistol is a product called the “carabiner kit”.
      If the gun is a second-chance weapon, then he does not need a body kit, because in size and mass, it begins to approach the main one.
      If this is the main weapon of self-defense (for crews, calculations, etc.) - better than PP under the same cartridge and ... gun ...
      So all this whale junk is for the civilian market.
      For specialists, rubble for shooting from around the corner may be needed.
      1. +4
        21 October 2019 01: 22
        So all this whale junk is for the civilian market.


        Most likely you are right. We had a colleague from Estonia on our site, he was engaged in bullet shooting and bought a similar kit for his Glock. He sent me a couple of videos in PM with how he worked with him in the "cleaning the room" exercise, and he praised this whale very much for its convenience. But he is not a special forces officer by profession, but a doctor. It is a pity that he was not there for a long time, otherwise he would have commented on the article. After all, it’s like here: 99,9% of these “whales” have not even seen it, and another 50% of the barrel have not been held in their hands, but are taken to judge.
        1. +4
          21 October 2019 05: 57
          Cannibal horse...
          Here the thing is different: personal weapons - it is in addition to the main one, an assault rifle, a machine gun, a sniper, a grenade launcher (etc.). With a whale, it will be two and heavier than the main one, it will approach the machine in mass and dimensions, it will be like a PP, but with a shorter barrel. Army easier to use full-fledged software.
    2. +3
      21 October 2019 14: 32
      Quote: AVM
      It can be seen that an experienced shooter can lay bullets at a target with sufficiently high accuracy and accuracy


      So he shoots from 12-15 meters and hardly fits into an open growth target.
      What accuracy and accuracy in automatic shooting ...
      1. +1
        21 October 2019 16: 30
        just about, and this despite the fact that the video is staged - and in battle there will be no time to take the rack and the right grip, so the line will go completely uncontrollable.
        APS does not need to be given as an example - there is a heavy all-metal weapon, with a subsonic cartridge, and equipped with a pace moderator. And then, not every specialist knows how to conduct controlled fire from him in bursts.
    3. +1
      21 October 2019 16: 23
      Quote: AVM
      It is seen that an experienced shooter can lay bullets at a target with sufficiently high accuracy and accuracy.

      the whole essence of a pistol worn by a fighter is to serve him as a "lifesaver" if, God forbid, the main weapon catches a distortion or is damaged in battle, or something else that cannot be removed by simply twitching the bolt.
      Therefore, the fighter will most likely not have time to get ready, take a tactical stance, and apply the correct two-handed grip (and not all of the lich. Squad is 120kg of moose, which RMB toss with one hand).
      On the contrary, shooting will be conducted from an unstable position, and most likely from one hand. Armor-piercing cartridges, + R +, recoil from them - be healthy. Figs where you get from the "ratchet" with a pace of 1500 and above.
      Consequently - we need a moderator of the rate of fire, we need a DTK (like on 93 Beretta) or at least a muzzle compensator like on Pernach and Drotik, a mechanism for reducing recoil force is desirable (again, like on Pernach and Dartik) ... In short, so that the gun could really lead effective (rather than spectacular) automatic. fire, a rather significant rise in price and complexity of the design will be required, and, accordingly, this will also cause an increase in weight and size.
      As a result, this will no longer be a weapon of everyday wear.

      Well, or putting all these knots into a carabiner kit, according to the type of the Herker-Koch VP70 butt, is also the same haemorrhoids and lowering reliability.
      1. 0
        28 October 2019 09: 03
        There will not be a single sane pistol in power to shoot bursts with one hand, and the craving for bursting with a burst is some kind of nonsense
  2. -1
    20 October 2019 18: 13
    I used to use APB in due time. THING! good
    In my opinion, one of the most accurate army pistols of our time.
    1. +1
      21 October 2019 01: 13
      Hi colleague. Shot from a regular APS, I agree with you - the gun is magnificent.
  3. +1
    20 October 2019 18: 48
    Great and interesting article, thanks
  4. -1
    20 October 2019 19: 09
    Reminds a story with the so-called The terminator is to push the unbeatable into the army laughing
    1. 0
      20 October 2019 19: 44
      And it reminds me of a policeman’s robot with its pestle wink
  5. -1
    20 October 2019 19: 21
    For special units, of course, such canopies are needed, as well as a variety of weapons from which the right one for a specific task is selected.
    For widespread use in the army and the police, all the same, there is no or very limited, complex transformers are unnecessary here. For example, you need to display an image from a sight to the eye in order to work from behind a corner / cover, a tablet in the output of tactical information, I would like all snipers to be equipped with rangefinders, compact weather stations and ball computers, and pistols with silencers are already used.
    Those. of the whole variety of gadgets in the army, only certain elements will be used and certainly not sophisticated transformers of carbine pistols.
    1. 0
      20 October 2019 19: 23
      Quote: Sergey_G_M
      For special units, of course, such canopies are needed, as well as a variety of weapons from which the right one for a specific task is selected.
      For widespread use in the army and the police, all the same, no, or very limited, complex transformers are unnecessary here. We need, for example, outputting the image from sight to the eye in order to work because of the angle / shelter, I would like all snipers to be equipped with rangefinders, compact weather stations and ball calculators, and pistols with silencers are already used.
      Those. of the whole variety of gadgets in the army, only certain elements will be used and certainly not sophisticated transformers of carbine pistols.


      Body kit for special services.

      The proposed promising pistol of maximum parameters can be used not only by linear army units, but by special forces or other power structures with special statutory tasks. In this case, the gun may require additional equipment with various attachments and equipment, as well as special ammunition, which we will discuss below.
      1. +2
        20 October 2019 19: 41
        Because of the size, complexity and high cost, the proposed pistol project is not really needed either in the army or in the police, and it will be in special units - but not bad, but without it it is not critical. They have already redone the SR-1 and opikinely under the crown of the head only they haven’t done a folding whale for the carbine yet, for them it will be just another gun for choosing the operation - to take it, SR-1 or something .45 or .50.
      2. +3
        21 October 2019 03: 23
        Quote: AVM
        The proposed promising pistol of maximum parameters can be used not only by linear army units, but by special forces or other power structures with special statutory tasks.

        Any fighter, those units that are called linear in the battle, it is better to take an additional store to the machine gun and a couple of grenades. How to drag such a bandura on yourself. Specialists are another matter, they have different tasks and naturally the weapons correspond.
        And further. Why is it for security officials? It is lower in efficiency than PP, and the dimensions and weight are at least the same, or even larger.
    2. 0
      20 October 2019 20: 12
      Who needs pistols in the army at all? We have pseudo-PP guards and police use. To and in other countries, police also go with carbine-whales.
      1. +4
        20 October 2019 20: 19
        It is very strange, why do they go with carabiner-whales, and not with normal, more convenient and accurate PPs, if the legislation does not allow it, remake the PPs for a single one, because the cost of a whale is almost equal to the cost of the PP?
        1. 0
          20 October 2019 20: 24
          Because the PP produced in Israel (and this is only "Micro-ultrasound" and X95) are worse than the pseudo-PP. "Ultrasound" with the same barrel length has fewer options for body kit, and X95 is larger and does not have the ability to adjust the length of the butt. And the price of "Roni" and "KPOS" is several times less.
          1. 0
            20 October 2019 20: 28
            It’s clear - the local specifics, there really is nothing to be done, and you have to get out at least that way.
            1. +2
              20 October 2019 20: 43
              This is not local specificity. These pseudo-PPs are very well sold to all kinds of different police and special forces, and to countries where their weapons are enough like Belgium or France. Because it is cheap, convenient and allows you to put any body kit.
  6. +10
    20 October 2019 19: 32
    In short, about the shnyaga for 2 mowers of American money, the frame itself plus trinkets.
    1. Does not affect the speed of a bullet, an unpleasant action. (-)
    2. Increases accuracy due to comfortable retention. (+)
    3. Increases the dimensions of the gun (-)
    4. It always introduces an unknown derivative in the absence of confidence in the accuracy of the signage of additional sights 3 cm thick! Or a collimator. (-)
    5. With shnyaga need a longer aiming time (-)
    6. A large unacceptable distance of 50 meters between the axis of the barrel and the front sight. Even ideally, the bullets will go down to the height of the sight, if you shoot at the center at 50, the bullet at 65 will significantly go up about the aiming point. (-).
    7. He took the gun out of this shit put it in its place .. forget everything about sighting. On a new shoot.
    1. +8
      20 October 2019 19: 52
      In general, it would be nice to already understand for many that the task of manufacturers is to put in the most expensive and not necessary equipment as possible. At 10 or 25 meters or 50 meters, the gun is instantly guided along the barrel and adjusted by the front sight. Special Forces generally pounding at the front sight without looking. Therefore, the whole concept of high accuracy of this Pribluda collapses like a house of cards. In the gun, the most important thing is the QUICK SHOT. Because as you aim again, they may not even give you. Because of the close distance to the enemy. Count the pros and cons and draw your own conclusions
      1. +3
        20 October 2019 20: 24
        Quote: tracer
        In general, it would be nice to many already understand that the task of manufacturers to foist in the most expensive and not necessary equipment as possible.
        This raving for 100500% for the civilian market, because it’s easier for the military to have a separate PP and a gun. If only because the backlash is less.
      2. 0
        20 October 2019 21: 12
        Here are many advantages for you! It's enough to see a grandfather like Bob Marley. Well, or any "cowboy games".
        1. 0
          19 November 2019 16: 22
          “Maybe Manden?” Bob Manden ... Marley - from another opera ... laughing
    2. -1
      20 October 2019 20: 15
      1-7. All this costs 600-1000 bucks, and is perfectly used by a policeman.
      1. 0
        20 October 2019 20: 22
        Well ... debunking your bullshit is easy.
        1. The comment was deleted.
    3. -3
      20 October 2019 20: 18
      Why write nonsense? It is clear that you are not a shooter. STP is completely preserved, the position of the weapon inside the whale is stable
      A carabiner kit adds about 20% to the effectiveness of a gun with a good gunner, and up to 100% or more with a bad gunner
      With increasing distance, the additive can be much larger
      But the problem is the carabiner-whale - its size, the weapon in it ceases to be a pistol, so it is not suitable for the role of "second weapon in an emergency case"
      A more interesting concept is offered by the FLUX MP17, created on the basis of the ZigZauer M17 and using its modularity, which makes it possible to make the weapon more compact and more convenient, while the possibility of carrying it and emergency use as a pistol is preserved
      https://youtu.be/DZtOYQO8Zhk
      1. +2
        20 October 2019 20: 31
        Do you yourself believe that I'm not a shooter? You can’t see that you don’t understand that the shooting from this shnyaga is lost at a time. Or in your galaxy other physical laws, as well as a different probability theory.
      2. +1
        20 October 2019 21: 16
        Maybe you and the shooter, maybe even in the dash take prizes. But! Every day, for 12 hours to wear this fool? Then all employees who are not in the service prefer sub compacts.
        1. +1
          20 October 2019 21: 31
          So that’s the problem with this carbine kit - that wearing it like a gun will not work
          The sighting is maintained with normal carabiner kits from well-known manufacturers. Modular options are even better on this topic.
          The shooter cannot write “the gun is pointing 50 m along the barrel” and is adjusted by the front sight. A pistol at 50 m (as well as at 10 m) is induced by muscle memory and is POSITIVELY positioned when using sights. Trunk Alignment is a Way to Nowhere
          1. +3
            21 October 2019 01: 25
            You are a programmer. Well, confess ... Why? Because you don't understand the laws of mechanics and physics. You do not have this base as a foundation for judgments on this topic. And this is perfectly visible. Your knowledge is virtual and pulled from the Internet. It is impossible for you to prove that a collimator sight catastrophically reduces the width of the angle of view by 15 meters or 25, 50 meters. You just don't understand the difference between conveniently aiming at a Pepsi can at 50 meters and a throw-up shot at an armed criminal. Well, you do not understand the difference. At least because the collimator needs to turn on some models, of course, they turn on themselves when they jump up, but if they don't turn on? Battery drained? Or they forgot to open the lens. In addition, if the collimator is uncased with aiming at the center of the front lens, you simply will not see a point in the rain or dew ... It is not there, it will be washed out by water drops. Fine ? And after that you declare to me that I am not a shooter? "KU" on you ... I remember you and earlier in the posts you wrote heresy.
            1. -3
              21 October 2019 15: 03
              For your information, I’m an IPSC shooter, and not bad enough. And with collimator sights and their features, I work a lot more than yours and I know more about them.
              The collimator does not reduce the field of view in any way, due to the fact that aiming is exactly the same with both eyes. Collimators must be turned on, yes. But we haven't even talked about it yet. Aimpoints have enough batteries for a very long time - in the DB zone they are always on. Of course, you can shoot without careful aiming, but at close distances, and not at 50 m
              in Pistols, the collimator is designed so that regular sighting is visible through the lens below
              sights react to water drops in different ways, there is no such "blur" effect in closed collimators, especially in a holographic EOtek
              generally. Your opinion is absolutely not based on facts and lies entirely on that plane. that you hit the target once at a distance of 5 m. There are also misses near the target, even shooters of a very high level. Or is there a delta instead of alpha, which in a real situation let's say means a shot in response. So you are definitely not a shooter
              1. 0
                21 October 2019 20: 58
                I don’t care what IPSC you are. Do not write nonsense or evidence with stupidity, no one will say a word to you. What makes you think that I am not involved in this sport? Although of course I'm the rifle first thing. So, not about that. I told you that you should not praise this elda. And you, having no practice, except for the shooting range, draw silly conclusions on this basis.
                1. -1
                  22 October 2019 20: 39
                  This is not "praising bullshit," but the experience of thousands and thousands of man hours in shooting ranges, with high-level hands, which shows that without aiming there are no adequate stable hits. That's all. “On the trunk” no one shoots further 5-7 m - for this is a loss
                  Carabiner ergonomics with a collimator exceeds pistol percent by 20 percent at least, the greater the distance, the greater the gap
                  But, you really have to wear it like a carbine, not a gun
                  That is, this is not a panacea, one of the possible means. It appeared precisely as a pistol gain when there is nothing else
                  But in real life it’s easier to take a carbine under an intermediate cartridge, leaving the gun a pistol
      3. +3
        21 October 2019 07: 57
        Quote: Michael HORNET
        STP is completely preserved,
        What are you saying! For pneumatics, it was necessary to sculpt the periscope to save the STP, but here it is preserved.


        Quote: Michael HORNET
        stable position of the weapon inside the whale
        Here, the relaxed bolt in the bed affects stability poorly, and the pistol on the latches does not fidget! Cool!

        Quote: Michael HORNET
        A carabiner kit adds about 20% to the effectiveness of a gun with a good gunner, and up to 100% or more with a bad gunner
        Good, at short distances, it will interfere, but bad (how much?) Will not help. And the dispersion will increase, which negates all the pluses for a "good shooter".

        Quote: Michael HORNET
        With increasing distance, the additive can be much larger
        What is the increase in distance ?! Even if the gun does not hang in the whale, the bullet quickly loses speed.

        Quote: Michael HORNET
        A more interesting concept is the FLUX MP17,
        however, the possibility of wearing it and emergency use as a pistol is retained
        Yes, more interesting, because It is a pistol frame. But not saved, because turns the gun into it is not clear what: for the gun is heavy, for PP - it is absurd.

        Quote: Michael HORNET
        But the problem of a carabiner-whale is its size, the weapon in it ceases to be a pistol
        The problem with any carbine kit is its weight and carrying. Here PM + 100g people whine: hard. And the whale is "PM" + ... "PM" ...

        Any full-fledged PP will beat the pistol + whale in terms of effectiveness.
        And PP2000 and the like - and a gun, I guess.
        1. 0
          25 October 2019 12: 39
          The carbine kit increases the effective range of the weapon under 9x19 to about 130 meters. Shooting a pistol at such a range is available only to high-level shooters in a shooting range. And with a carabiner-whale almost everyone can
          compare with some kind of pneuma made by the crooked hands of Izhevsk artisans
          in a normal carabiner kit, the position of the weapon is stable and the STP remains within 100 m, taking into account the dispersion of the weapon
          it is clear that you have never fired not only from a carbine-whale, but simply from a 9x19 carbine, otherwise you would not have written absurdities about "it will interfere at short distances." The carbine 9x19 and, accordingly, the kit for the pistol surpasses the pistol in terms of efficiency at all distances, at short distances it can go on a par, at long distances it wins significantly. well, except that you can come up with some scenarios where the gun can be activated faster. so it’s faster to shoot from a carbine while holding it on a belt than from a pistol in an army holster.
          a whale is still a different phenomenon, besides wearing it or not and how it is a personal matter of the operator
          1. 0
            1 November 2019 19: 17
            Quote: Michael HORNET
            Well, unless you can think of some scenarios where the gun can be put into action faster.
            Easy: any option when the gun is not the main weapon.

            Quote: Michael HORNET
            it is clear that you have never fired, not only from a carbine-kit, but simply from a 9x19 carbine, otherwise you wouldn’t write absurdities about "at short distances".
            To get started, figure out what I wrote. And I wrote this: if it is more convenient and efficient to drag this absurdity - a sane person will acquire PP of the appropriate size, which will be much more effective than this nonsense. At least a trunk length of not 10 cm, but 20-25.
  7. +1
    20 October 2019 19: 55
    hi
    A good article, interesting, although not all conclusions are certain!
    I will add that Roni's tactical unit with a collimator is a very handy thing! You can try it (I don’t know how on the forum indicating the places where there are weapons) in Moscow (in Dzerzhinsky, more precisely, Google will help everyone). Periodically, when we go there (for example, note the DR, there are still discounts on the DR ...) and those not very happy, "forced" shooters (female who are forced to participate in the DR and shoot their 100 9 * 19) notice that from It is very difficult to hit a gong or a falling target with an ordinary pistol, but with a block it is very simple! And the usual difference in hits for such an unprepared shooter is somewhere between 50 and 90%!
    1. 0
      20 October 2019 20: 00
      For a shooting gallery, the thing is awesome convenient. And all this shnyaga was made for a shooting gallery? For the shooting gallery there are other most convenient sports pistols.
      1. +2
        20 October 2019 20: 09
        As it turned out, a piece of plastic in the form of a block is more convenient than "the most convenient sport pistol" for shooters of the level "it's good that it's not in Kubinka on a tank this time."
        There is no need to combine the "rear sight - front sight - target", just a red dot is visible on the target. It is more convenient to handle the descent - an emphasis on the shoulder, two hands hold. The recoil is more comfortable.
        Seriously, the block and collimator are very convenient for any shooter. I don’t know the flashlight and the LCC ... The muffler, by the way, is also convenient - that the USP HC, that the MSS - it’s more convenient to shoot when there is no loud sound. Although you can wear good active headphones! feel
        1. +2
          20 October 2019 20: 18
          Quote: Wildcat
          As it turned out, a piece of plastic in the form of a block is more convenient than "the most convenient sport pistol" for shooters of the level "it's good that it's not in Kubinka on a tank this time."
          There is no need to combine the "rear sight - front sight - target", just a red dot is visible on the target. It is more convenient to handle the descent - an emphasis on the shoulder, two hands hold. The recoil is more comfortable.
          Seriously, the block and collimator are very convenient for any shooter. I don’t know the flashlight and the LCC ... The muffler, by the way, is also convenient - that the USP HC, that the MSS - it’s more convenient to shoot when there is no loud sound. Although you can wear good active headphones! feel

          And how to shove it all into the PM holster? laughing It's about an army pistol, if that.
          1. +3
            20 October 2019 22: 21
            And how to shove it all into the PM holster? laughing It's about an army pistol, if that.

            hi
            You are right, it is impossible to shove the non-implantable, and even more so into the holster from the PM.
            But the article dealt with "... the use by military personnel or employees of other power structures, who are not supposed to have any other weapon than a pistol on duty.
            The carbine kit gives the pistol one more advantage - it significantly increases the possibilities for installing various attachments. "So I gave a comment in the genre of" personal impressions ".
            IMHO:
            Apparently, it is still impossible to make a single pistol "weapon-equipment-cartridge complex" that would suit all users of army weapons.
            There are 2 good noiseless ones, based on PM and PPS, and probably an excellent PSS with a sound that does not look like a shot at all, "metal on metal". This is a necessary weapon and it will not work to cram it into the requirements of a single pistol.
            There is a practical need to give the army a pistol for close range and the typical goal is not in body armor and there is no need for a silencer. This is a gun and 9 * 18 and 9 * 19 and 5,45 * 18, there is a difference in the comfort of carrying and shooting, and the army could take into account different physical data and the needs of users.
            There is also a theoretical need for a pistol "for war", when the targets will be in body armor and this topic is being mastered now. And, apparently, this is not so much a pistol as a PDW type HK MP7 / P90 - "5-7".
            On a modern pistol, landing sockets for a collimator and a flashlight / laser pointer are needed, and a large-capacity magazine, 8 rounds is somehow more for "pocket socks". A collimator could significantly increase the accuracy of shooting, especially at dusk and at night (which is also true for "long" weapons). All other methods of shooting "at close, medium and long distances" from a pistol require serious training, which is not realistic. But due to the insignificance of the issue, poverty and "it will do" it is unlikely that collimators will be installed everywhere.
            If we consider blocks of the Roni type, then it is rather a "police" weapon that will allow you to send a bullet very accurately at a short distance. And the "police" weapon could be .45 caliber.
            The LCR in the visible spectrum and the flashlight are also more likely for police operations too: they saw, recognized and accurately shot. The problem is that they unmask the shooter. LZU in the invisible is a slightly different story.
            Systems for shooting "from around the corner" are simply brilliant, but with their own niche.
            1. +1
              21 October 2019 10: 11
              Quote: Wildcat
              But the article dealt with "... the use by military personnel or employees of other power structures, who are not supposed to have any other weapon than a pistol on duty.
              Then he and the carabiner-whale is not supposed. He can only wear it separately, because Holsters are not provided - only on the belt, and therefore apply - will not have time. If something more than a gun is envisaged, they will be forced to carry a PP or a machine gun, and not this ersatz.
              1. +2
                21 October 2019 15: 42
                Quote: Simargl
                Quote: Wildcat
                But the article dealt with "... the use by military personnel or employees of other power structures, who are not supposed to have any other weapon than a pistol on duty.
                Then he and the carabiner-whale is not supposed. He can only wear it separately, because Holsters are not provided - only on the belt, and therefore apply - will not have time. If something more than a gun is envisaged, they will be forced to carry a PP or a machine gun, and not this ersatz.

                Yes, and optics, not like incomprehensible bourgeois plastic things, will not be given either. Due to the insignificance of the issue, and "it will do, not on the attack with a gun." Who needs and can - they will buy (like ZIGs). And who doesn’t need it - what is written in the ULO, they will give it (and 1 spare store, right?). And whoever does not have a ULO (machine gunner, grenade launcher, sniper, etc.) is not supposed to have a gun. It’s good that in the 21st century the magazine capacity for an army pistol is no longer 8 rounds.
    2. +2
      20 October 2019 21: 38
      In my opinion, the most correct caliber for such a pistol / PDV 7.62
      In fact, this caliber for pistols and MPEs is the middle ground between the 5.7 hole punch and the usual 9 mm with mortar trajectory at 100 m (maximum fire efficiency up to 130 m, which coincides with that of 5.7x28 in fact)
      It would be more reasonable to make a PDV cartridge based on a bullet to the existing 7.62x39, with a sleeve of approximately 28 mm in length and lightweight bottling. It is possible to make this cartridge based on the 5.45x39 liner, this will reduce the cost of production
      The speed of 7.9 g of a bullet with modern powders can be achieved in the region of 450-470 m / s, which will give us approximately 800-860 j of muzzle energy with a quite adult ballistic coefficient of a bullet in the region of 0,3. That will allow using this cartridge both in pistols and MPE (cartridges 10 auto can have the same muzzle energy, but 7.62 cartridge is better)
      Caliber 7.62 will allow you to have both a more than sufficient stopping effect (like a 7.62 machine gun at about 300 m, it’s quite good), and an excellent penetrating effect, plus there are already bullets, they don’t need to be developed separately, and the whole range is ready. A 7,62 bullet with a 0.3 BC with an initial 450-470 m / s will be effective up to 250 m confidently, and will even work at 300 m, which is absolutely unattainable for either small-caliber 5.7x28 or 9x19 / 9x21.
      1. -1
        22 October 2019 04: 35
        Change the ruler as you can grab the handle of the gun with a magazine in which only the length of the sleeve 39mm. Will you hold the handle with the tentacles of octopus?
        1. 0
          22 October 2019 20: 45
          It is written in Russian in white - the length of the sleeve is 28 mm, maybe 27 mm - it is necessary to design
          The cartridge for the 7.5 FK BRNO pistol is made in much the same way, 14 rounds are placed in the handle in the magazine
  8. +2
    20 October 2019 20: 01
    Somehow they discussed the carbine whale here with a participant from the Baltic states, if I am not mistaken. He has one for Glock.
    In countries where short-barreled weapons are allowed, this is undoubtedly a convenient budget option for civilian weapons - a pistol and a carbine immediately.
    1. -1
      20 October 2019 20: 14
      I myself am from a foreign country and I know perfectly well what I'm talking about. You can buy, not a question, but legally, this is the same gun as it was before. And you will be allowed to shoot from it only on a pistol range. Explain to me the meaning....? For a nerd lover. Rzhunimagu when the Chinese, dressed up as in shooters, hit 50 meters from the repair and then from everything in a row ... Proud such, they probably post pictures on Instagram. Cool horror .. This product is for them ... GERMANS ..!
      1. -1
        20 October 2019 20: 47
        It was about self-defense.
        If a farmer, for example, comes in handy without and with a whale.
        1. +3
          20 October 2019 20: 51
          For the farmer’s self-defense, no one has come up with a better shotgun. At a distance of 50 meters, a dispute between a stray proponent and an opponent with a 12 gauge semi-automatic gun will end almost without starting.
          1. 0
            20 October 2019 20: 53
            I remember that the conversation was about a greater range and that it is cheaper to buy a gun and a whale for it than a gun and a carbine.
            1. 0
              20 October 2019 21: 11
              And how a piece of plastic will change the range of the shot.
              1. 0
                20 October 2019 21: 32
                Usually. Increase the stability of weapons and accuracy. From my own experience, I got a twenty-meter worse pistol than a 40-meter butt with the butt. Shooting in series of three to five rounds, standing and from the knee, from behind cover.
              2. +2
                20 October 2019 22: 15
                increases stability.
                actually, Mauser and Stechkin used a wooden holster for this purpose.
                and the astronauts are machetes, if I remember correctly.

            2. 0
              21 October 2019 01: 07
              Quote: Avior
              It’s cheaper to buy a gun and a whale for it than a gun and a carbine.

              Who told you that this miracle is cheaper than the SCS of the same?
              1. 0
                21 October 2019 01: 43
                it was not my opinion.
                The participant "horse and murderer" is something like that.
                watch in my tape for a long time, it was a long time ago
                1. 0
                  21 October 2019 06: 23
                  The horse participant, if I remember correctly, lives in a country with a legal short-barrel. So his argument is about "it's cool to hit something from the Glock at 100 meters."

                  I am not at all opposed to such an argument: a person has the right to spend time and money as he sees fit. But if a person means shooting to kill, he must shoot the weapon that he will have in his hands. If there is a short barrel in the hands without a whale on the street - then what the hell? If there is a whale in the hands, if the barrel is stored installed in the whale at home, then why not take a normal weapon? SKS and smoothbore are very moderate even compared to a glock without a whale. On the other hand, if we are talking about shooting civilians at a distance from house to yard, then arguments of the “I like it better” level are quite appropriate, an intermediate cartridge will not give any particular profit.
                  1. 0
                    21 October 2019 09: 24
                    I don’t argue, in my opinion he’s an athlete-shooter on a pistol just.
                    I actually look at the gun as a weapon of self-defense, in terms of its maximum compactness.
                    Otherwise, you just get tired of wearing it and at the right time it will not be.
                    Let the range be less, and less ammunition in the store, but he is with him.
                    1. 0
                      21 October 2019 10: 01
                      That is yes. The 7x0.22 you have is better than the 17x0.40 you don't have.
        2. +1
          21 October 2019 10: 31
          Quote: Avior
          If a farmer, for example, comes in handy without and with a whale.
          I have 12GA without stray. If the question of self-defense arises, I will collect cartridges in 9 segments. The energy of the shot is 3000-3500 J (more is possible, but it hurts), about 350 J will be required per segment. 5 rounds can fit, these are 45 segments, it corresponds to 2,5 magazines of 18 rounds each (one steel cylinder 28-42g is possible - then the bulletproof vest can don't help). It is possible to squander the receiving window and use the equipment accelerator, then the enemy will not notice the moment of replenishment of ammunition. You can even shoot with ball bearings, then you can use the ricochet. We need armor-piercing - we grind out the Sputnik, stick tungsten electrodes there and complete the task. "Sputnik" can be fired at 300-500m.
          So the farmer doesn’t need a cop.
          1. 0
            21 October 2019 10: 40
            Different farmers, different needs.
            You and your 12 gauge will not hang around the city in the evening, I think.
            And then the point of remembering that he is at your place ....
            1. 0
              21 October 2019 11: 07
              Quote: Avior
              You and your 12 gauge will not hang around the city in the evening, I think.
              Yes, and with the COP will not give. Even on the farm.
              OSV-96 as a self-defense of home ownership - please. And the COP - no, no. Those. In Russia, this kit is not needed.
              At a distance of 25 meters are not defended.
              On a smaller weapon, focusing on the shoulder is not convenient.
      2. +1
        21 October 2019 15: 12
        the difference lies in whether it is necessary to quickly and accurately hit a shooter of average skill, or "and so it will do" and you can "shoot in that direction"
        2% of its users can shoot a pistol. From a carbine at the very least - but half of the users are definitely able, and the second half will definitely do it better than from a pistol.
        But, really - the real problem of carbine whales is their size and weight. You can carry it with you "just in case" if you have only one pistol and nothing else. that is why, by the way, they appeared in Israel - a country where you can somehow get yourself ONLY ONE pistol and more - nothing - you can not buy a second pistol, a carbine, or a shotgun. So they made a pistol extension.
        because the topic of ordinary amplification is to bring a carbine with you. But a carbine is a weapon, it must be handled accordingly, and not leave in the car, etc.
        and the carabiner-kit is not a weapon, it can be said to be left in the same car or in the office there. if anything happens, you will have a much more complete weapon in your hands.
        So carbine whales undoubtedly have their own niche. But this is no longer a military niche, but rather a civilian or "for storage"
        1. 0
          21 October 2019 16: 52
          Quote: Michael HORNET
          So carbine whales undoubtedly have their own niche. But this is no longer a military niche, but rather a civilian or "for storage"

          I agree with you, "niche" weapon for those who cannot afford PP.
          But in general, the author of the article managed to convince me that carabiner kits have the right to life, but what he described is possible only with a special pistol adapted for auto-fire - and such a gun is an expensive and overall pleasure , not for everyday wear.
          1. 0
            22 October 2019 20: 49
            Yes, no, auto-fire is not particularly needed, reasonable dimensions are needed for easy wearing - and this is better implemented on modular pistols, rather than a carbine kit, which greatly increases the dimensions
            Modular pistols therefore have a future.
            Google FLUX MP17
  9. 0
    20 October 2019 20: 13
    Unfortunately, the design idea is now buried by the bullshit of marketers, all sorts of carabiner-kits are plastic, ugly, fixed everywhere, even where it is not necessary.
    In my opinion, the best carabiner kit is a Mauser gun with a wooden holster; modern crafts are not suitable for him.
    1. 0
      21 October 2019 15: 15
      Mauser about nothing, compare Mauser and Flux MP17
      Like a Ford T vs a modern sports car
  10. +4
    20 October 2019 20: 13
    In the army, this designer didn’t fit. Specure too. You will need p.p. will take p.p. will need a machine gun will take a machine gun. And instead of all sorts of Lego, b.c. more. Shitovoy generally has a "revolver" purely for self-defense. There is one "fence" with a fence under 50 kilos. And it is not included in the task of the shield personal account to replenish.
    1. +1
      20 October 2019 20: 41
      Plus. As for the use of the short barrels in real combat, I can only say one thing: if it came to pistols, then it’s very, very bad.
  11. The comment was deleted.
  12. Lad
    0
    20 October 2019 21: 13
    And somewhere already tried to produce such military (and not some other) cartridges? I mean specifically with a thin sleeve and a high-speed bullet?
    1. 0
      20 October 2019 22: 20
      Quote: Lad
      And somewhere already tried to produce such military (and not some other) cartridges? I mean specifically with a thin sleeve and a high-speed bullet?


      They are actively producing - Belgium FN 5,7x28 and Germany H&K 4,6x30
  13. +2
    20 October 2019 22: 19
    It would be interesting to see how a special forces soldier besides Kalashnikov carries a whale, and unexpectedly for the enemy "snatches out" and uses it.
    1. -1
      21 October 2019 08: 09
      Quote: 7,62x54
      It would be interesting to see how a special forces soldier besides Kalashnikov carries a whale, and unexpectedly for the enemy "snatches out" and uses it.


      A set of any weapon can include many accessories, different sights, additional handles. This does not mean that everything and all the time should be hung on weapons and carried with them.
      Here's an example kit for the M-4 (SOPMOD):
  14. 0
    20 October 2019 23: 25
    My opinion. Comparison: a pistol (PM) - a car, a submachine gun (PPS, PPSh, MP-40) - a pickup truck or UAZ loaf, a GAZelle truck, a machine gun or an assault rifle (AKM or M-16) - a Kamaz or Ural truck ... , rifle (Mosin, Mauser ...) - truck (tractor + trailer truck). The meaning of comparison: a carabiner kit is a car with a trailer. If you want to buy a carbine-kit for your PM, buy a cargo trailer for your Zhiguli.
    1. 0
      21 October 2019 10: 49
      Quote: cat Rusich
      Comparison:
      PM - small car.
      Parameter gun is a big SUV, rather.
      PP - depending on the concept: Steyr TMP, PM-63, SR-2M, PPSh ... the first three are a cargo-passenger gazelle, rather. Those that are overtaking automatic machines in size and weight - they have outlived themselves.
      Automata - yes, like a truck ...
  15. 0
    20 October 2019 23: 32
    Everything that is written here is of interest to a very limited contingent of specialists (couch) in a narrowly focused application. The author carefully avoided this issue by referring to "professional military personnel" - and who is this, specifically? Two and a half snipers and three commandos. Well, even without you, they will "buy" for themselves what they need. Tens of thousands of officers daily suffer with this retro "G" iron, stepping into outfits, patrols, guards. Instead of making a convenient, light, compact (and beautiful, also very important) personal weapon for officers of the modern army, only kilograms are wound up from article to article.
    1. -1
      21 October 2019 01: 29
      Cover Makar with rhinestones or sparkles at last. And you will be happy. Beaded can too.
    2. 0
      10 January 2020 09: 54
      You can still not wear cartridges to facilitate the burden.
      Or even a cucumber in a holster (it’s always easy to get a hangover)
  16. +5
    20 October 2019 23: 38
    Quote: AVM
    It is seen that an experienced shooter can lay bullets at a target with sufficiently high accuracy and accuracy.

    I don’t understand one thing. Is Larry Vickers a navel of some kind of land? You can not show on your own with your native APS? Petrov shoots much more spectacularly:

    1. +2
      21 October 2019 01: 30
      SCHOOL misunderstood. The Internet is more about Vickers. And a lot of our experts and do not need.
    2. -1
      21 October 2019 07: 59
      Quote: bunta
      Quote: AVM
      It is seen that an experienced shooter can lay bullets at a target with sufficiently high accuracy and accuracy.

      I don’t understand one thing. Is Larry Vickers a navel of some kind of land? You can not show on your own with your native APS? Petrov shoots much more spectacularly:


      Video about Glock-18 is inserted in the context of firing in short bursts at the 2 cartridge with a high rate of fire of the 1700-2000 rounds per minute.

      APS has an artificially low rate of fire. For firing bursts this is probably more convenient, but for the 2 cartridge it hardly makes sense to add moderators.

      Therefore, a video about Glock-18 is more relevant than about APS.
  17. 0
    21 October 2019 06: 47
    To increase stability when shooting from hand, you can use an unconventional layout of two pistol grips. The front, under the right hand, is pushed forward and located on top of the trunk. It houses a magazine, and on it is a trigger mechanism, a fuse and a collimator sight on the left. The position of this node is adjustable in height - for a specific hand. The rear handle is small, under the left hand, located at the bottom of the receiver and shifted slightly back.
    As a confirmation, try to hit the wall with a jab, holding the side handle of the baton with the handle up and the pistol (handle down). Only when the handle is placed upward you will get a hard blow, so the shoulder of the current reaction will be minimal.
    From my article:
    http://www.sinor.ru/~bukren1/anti_t_b.htm
  18. +1
    21 October 2019 07: 24
    At a cost, a submachine gun will be several times more expensive than a carbine kit.
    it's some kind of game) like an automatic pistol with a butt and fore-end, which is pp, can cost more in production than an automatic pistol + kit for finishing a pistol in a submachine gun? those. + additional stock + additional forend
    1. +1
      21 October 2019 07: 56
      Quote: missuris
      At a cost, a submachine gun will be several times more expensive than a carbine kit.
      it's some kind of game) like an automatic pistol with a butt and fore-end, which is pp, can cost more in production than an automatic pistol + kit for finishing a pistol in a submachine gun? those. + additional stock + additional forend


      No. A pistol + submachine gun will cost less than a pistol + carbine kit.
      1. 0
        21 October 2019 11: 00
        Quote: AVM
        No.
        Yes! If you take a "full-size" PP - then a pistol + submachine gun is better (normal sizes, not AKS-U. If a "pistol on steroids", such as PP-2000, Steyr TMP, PM-63, SR-2M - then the pistol is not needed.
        The pistol + whale is a "pistol on steroids" in terms of weight and dimensions. And less easy to carry.
  19. 0
    21 October 2019 11: 43
    - I shot from this ... The thing is much more convenient, "pristine", or something, than the same PKSK ... But the PM ovsky cartridge will be weak. And the store capacity is too small "in the state". If only the PO in such a "whale" put on shoes ...
  20. +2
    21 October 2019 13: 07
    ... in case of loss or failure of the main weapon - a machine gun, as well as in other situations that may arise during the unpredictable development of the situation on the battlefield. For example, in the event of a collision with the enemy at point-blank range, when the cartridges in the machine shop ran out. In the course of an intense dynamic battle in a city, indoors, this situation is quite real, like many others.

    IN INTELLIGENCE, this situation is called "what if" ... with all the ensuing consequences. And to carry 1,5 ... 2,0 kg of metal / plastic instead of three magazines with 90 rounds for the sake of a chance to survive in an event that can happen with a probability of 1%, you need to convince yourself very much. But the situation in which you may need these very additional cartridges for Kalashnikov is quite real.
    Many have never used a fire extinguisher or first aid kit in a car, but this does not mean that they should not be there.

    Yes, but no one carries a blood transfusion station with a resuscitation kit in a trailer. Nobody installs an automatic fire extinguishing system like on MBT. Why do you want to make a soldier "a" in the image of the American soldier in Yugoslavia?
    1. -1
      21 October 2019 15: 22
      Quote: DesToeR
      ... in case of loss or failure of the main weapon - a machine gun, as well as in other situations that may arise during the unpredictable development of the situation on the battlefield. For example, in the event of a collision with the enemy at point-blank range, when the cartridges in the machine shop ran out. In the course of an intense dynamic battle in a city, indoors, this situation is quite real, like many others.

      IN INTELLIGENCE, this situation is called "what if" ... with all the ensuing consequences. And to carry 1,5 ... 2,0 kg of metal / plastic instead of three magazines with 90 rounds for the sake of a chance to survive in an event that can happen with a probability of 1%, you need to convince yourself very much. But the situation in which you may need these very additional cartridges for Kalashnikov is quite real.


      Why did you get this 1,5-2 kg? If we talk about the pistol proposed in the previous article based on the PDW concept, then the Belgian Five-seveN, which weighs less with twenty rounds than the PM with eight, is considered as a starting point.

      The main message is that according to research, as I understand them, two small-caliber bullets give a better effect than one large-caliber bullet, i.e. shooting with a double cartridge of the caliber 5-7 mm with a higher probability will hit the target, including in NIB than the bullet cartridge 9 mm +.
      And the weapons under this cartridge will be no larger and heavier than the Rook and Boa’s adopted for service.

      If you certainly deny the need for a pistol in principle, but then why is this type of weapon generally considered by the Russian and American armed forces?
      1. 0
        21 October 2019 17: 24
        Quote: AVM
        If we talk about the pistol proposed in the previous article based on the PDW concept, then the Belgian Five-seveN is considered as a starting point

        I agree with your previous article - a personal weapon with a "small armor-piercing" cartridge has the right to life, and most likely this is
        two small-caliber bullets will give a better effect than one large-caliber
        It’s also realistic - it’s easy to enter a cut-off of 2-3 shots. Plus, the return on this cartridge is much more pleasant, and the store is large, you can confidently hit several targets with a series of shots without worrying about ammunition.
        But! In this article you talked about a carbine kit - and to it (in order to have a full replacement of the PP), you need a completely different gun!
        Above, I described the requirements for really automatic a pistol - and a conventional weapon, a "second chance" pistol - such a whale did not give up.
        .
        A convenient pistol of constant wear is a short barrel, a plastic frame, licked forms (like GSh or Five-Seven) - this one pistol;
        and the assault barrel (like Pernach or 93 Beretta) with an auto fire, compensator, retarder, front handle, and a large magazine - this completely different pistol! Now it can already be shoved into a whale with a butt, sight / LTC / flashlight, and get PP from it.
        .
        SW Author - do not step on this rake, do not shove the impregnable bully
    2. 0
      21 October 2019 17: 34
      Quote: DesToeR
      At the REVEDOS, this situation is called "and if" ... with all the ensuing consequences
      I have nothing against the Intelligence Agency - but work "to the address" and in general this whole "CloseCombat" is not his diocese.
      But Carden’s opinion is quite the opposite - when an automatic machine catches a wedge that cannot be distorted - it is a gun that will save the life of a soldier - and it has saved many times.

      A statement about two stores is relevant only for infantry / reconnaissance, and not for assault groups. Different specifics.
  21. +1
    21 October 2019 13: 49
    No need to mix up the tasks of special forces and ordinary machine gunners.

    With Russian legislation regarding liability for the loss of weapons, a pistol for each fighter will create enormous problems.

    Training a fighter is also significantly complicated. One must learn to use, maintain and wear one more unit.
  22. +2
    21 October 2019 17: 31
    Quote: Wildcat
    Quote: Simargl
    Quote: Wildcat
    But the article dealt with "... the use by military personnel or employees of other power structures, who are not supposed to have any other weapon than a pistol on duty.
    Then he and the carabiner-whale is not supposed. He can only wear it separately, because Holsters are not provided - only on the belt, and therefore apply - will not have time. If something more than a gun is envisaged, they will be forced to carry a PP or a machine gun, and not this ersatz.

    Yes, and optics, not like incomprehensible bourgeois plastic things, will not be given either. Due to the insignificance of the issue, and "it will do, not on the attack with a gun." Who needs and can - they will buy (like ZIGs). And who doesn’t need it - what is written in the ULO, they will give it (and 1 spare store, right?). And whoever does not have a ULO (machine gunner, grenade launcher, sniper, etc.) is not supposed to have a gun. It’s good that in the 21st century the magazine capacity for an army pistol is no longer 8 rounds.

    I just can’t understand why an army pistol has more than 8 rounds of ammunition? Shoot the enemy - 2 pcs., Shoot the coward - 1 pc., Shoot yourself - more than 5 pieces?
  23. +1
    21 October 2019 19: 25
    Quote: AVM
    Why did you get this 1,5-2 kg?

    And what can be counted here: a pistol with cartridges - even 800g (ala GSh-18), a pribluda made of aluminum or plastic alloy with a butt - another 700 grams at least, a calimator sight (how could it be without it? ..300g, LCC with a flashlight (what if at night a dear AKM will jam in the city) - 700g, spare magazine with cartridges + 150g (two is better, of course ... but oh well ...), belt (we now have a carbine!) - 150g. So we get 50kg with a "hook". Carbine COLT M2 weighs 4 kg empty, and CP-2,68 VORTEX even less ... so for the perception of the order of numbers. And that's just the weight. Now let's count in money: let the pistol be $ 3. (ala semi-plastic Glock in the USA), "pribluda" - $ 400 (fab defense on discounts, for example), kalimator - 700 ... 500 cu (Potolotsky's reference book), cartridges, spare mag., belt, tactical handle ... even + 1000 cu. Total 50kg of weight at a price of 2 ... 1600 USD. Is there something to think about in the Russian Ministry of Defense is true?
    Quote: AVM
    The main message is that according to research, as I understand them, two small-caliber bullets give a better effect than one large-caliber

    Tell me, are you subscribed to YouTube on the official website of Kalashnikov? There is a video of firing from the AN-94 "two" at a rate of 1800 rpm at a distance of 50 m to the target. A full-size assault rifle with a shifted (in time) recoil impulse, cartridge 5,45x39, the shooter weighs 100 kg no less. Evaluate the spread of bullets in the target - at least a palm, which means that there will be no "bullet to bullet" penetration effect. Moreover, a double-barreled machine gun was tested in the USSR, moreover, automatic weapons were created, where in one cartridge there were two bullets at a time (though in 12,7 mm caliber). Do not think that no one thought about this 50 years ago. To break through the SIBZ in the USSR and Russia, there is precisely a steady trend to increase the mass of the bullet, and not to increase the initial speed.
    1. 0
      22 October 2019 08: 13
      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: AVM
      Why did you get this 1,5-2 kg?

      And what can be counted here: a pistol with cartridges - even 800g (ala GSh-18), a pribluda made of aluminum or plastic alloy with a butt - another 700 grams at least, a calimator sight (how could it be without it? ..300g, LCC with a flashlight (what if at night a dear AKM will jam in the city) - 700g, spare magazine with cartridges + 150g (two is better, of course ... but oh well ...), belt (we now have a carbine!) - 150g. So we get 50kg with a "hook". Carbine COLT M2 weighs 4 kg empty, and CP-2,68 VORTEX even less ... so for the perception of the order of numbers. And that's just the weight. Now let's count in money: let the pistol be $ 3. (ala semi-plastic Glock in the USA), "pribluda" - $ 400 (fab defense on discounts, for example), kalimator - 700 ... 500 cu (Potolotsky's reference book), cartridges, spare mag., belt, tactical handle ... even + 1000 cu. Total 50kg of weight at a price of 2 ... 1600 USD. Is there something to think about in the Russian Ministry of Defense is true?


      Doesn't it seem to you that the paragraph:
      The proposed promising pistol of maximum parameters can be used not only by linear army units, but by special forces or other power structures with special statutory tasks. In this case, the gun may require additional equipment with various attachments and equipment, as well as special ammunition, which we will discuss below.

      says that additional Pribluda, as it were, for the army units? The mere presence of something does not mean the need to carry it all the time and all at once. The American kit for the M-4 has already been given above.

      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: AVM
      The main message is that according to research, as I understand them, two small-caliber bullets give a better effect than one large-caliber

      Tell me, are you subscribed to YouTube on the official website of Kalashnikov? There is a video of firing from the AN-94 "two" at a rate of 1800 rpm at a distance of 50 m to the target. A full-size assault rifle with a shifted (in time) recoil impulse, cartridge 5,45x39, the shooter weighs 100 kg no less. Evaluate the spread of bullets in the target - at least a palm, which means that there will be no "bullet to bullet" penetration effect. Moreover, a double-barreled machine gun was tested in the USSR, moreover, automatic weapons were created, where in one cartridge there were two bullets at a time (though in 12,7 mm caliber). Do not think that no one thought about this 50 years ago. To break through the SIBZ in the USSR and Russia, there is precisely a steady trend to increase the mass of the bullet, and not to increase the initial speed.


      As for the Ak-94, of course I looked.
      Firstly, regarding the fire monitor scheme, it is quite possible that its effectiveness is overestimated, and it would be quite enough just to have an ultra-high rate of fire of 1800-2000 rounds / min. In the Czech pistol for powerful, accurate ammunition https://topwar.ru/137296-snayperskiy-pistolet-iz-chehii-75-fk-field-pistol.html, the balanced scheme was abandoned due to the fact that it did not give radical advantages .

      Secondly, the ratio of the energy of cartridges 400-600 for the pistol / 1100-1600 for the machine gun and the mass of the weapon 0,9 kg gun / 4,1 kg machine gun makes the difference not so noticeable anymore.

      Thirdly, the question is how the spread increases with distance. What will it be like on 5 m - 10 m - 15 m?
      If 15 cm at 50 meters, then at 25 meters will be 7 cm or 5 cm? And at 15 meters - the spread will be 2-3-5 cm?

      Fourthly, the dimensions of the ceramic elements and the general behavior of the armor elements upon impact. It is quite possible that when hitting a ceramic element, the entire matrix "floats", i.e. hitting "point to point" is not necessary, it is enough to hit within 3-5 cm, in the size of one block. Of course, this already needs to be confirmed by research.

      Well and most importantly, first of all, two bullets at a time are necessary to increase the likelihood of hitting a target, as there is a corresponding plate. A possible increase in armor penetration is the cherry on the cake.

      Yes, and if there was no penetration of the armor, then two bullets will inflict more injuries than one. The chance of an unsuccessful (for the opponent) hit is simply higher. Then why not 3 or 4 bullets? Yes, because the ammunition consumption is significantly higher (when shooting with deuces, with the 24-28 round of ammunition, this is 12-14 of double shots) and the difficulty of holding weapons. Something like this.
  24. +1
    21 October 2019 19: 45
    In this matter, I don’t even have confidence in the opinion of the participants in the hostilities who had a gun, but have never used it, and on this basis they believe that it can be abandoned

    The veterans of the Second World War were interested in the most cherished trophy - the vast majority named a pistol. As the saying goes, "it's better to have and not need than to need and not have."
  25. 0
    21 October 2019 21: 33
    A carbine differs from a pistol and a rifle in its long barrel. Attaching the butt to the pistol, the carbine WILL NOT work. There are pistols-carbines, but they become carbines (pistols and revolvers) only with an increase in the length of the barrel, immediately when manufactured at the factory, and not in the hands of the buyer of the "do-it-yourself carbine" kit
    1. +1
      22 October 2019 20: 55
      The question is not “to make a carbine”, but “to increase the efficiency of firing a pistol”. With this carabiner kit is very successful.
      There is nothing to argue about. If the gun is the fighter’s second weapon, then it will be just a gun. But if this weapon is the only one and the other is not supposed to, then here’s a carabiner-kit is a VERY good and adequate option. Moreover, he is not a weapon, which directly radically changes the order of treatment with him
      1. 0
        22 October 2019 21: 40
        Conditional example. Fighter (comrade major, battalion commander) - service PM (or pistol Kozlov Udav) why does he need a "carbine-kit"? - the battalion commander was going to fight "in the forefront", and not command from the headquarters? The meaning of such examples is that when a "fighter" has the only personal weapon, a pistol, there is no need to take part in a shootout. In case of a forced skirmish in the combat zone, they give PP (or AKSU in the Russian army). Another example: the story of Stechkin (APS), was removed from service. Complained: heavy (1,22 kg + 0,56 kg holster) + 4 magazines of 20 rounds each, replaced with AKSU. hi
        1. 0
          25 October 2019 13: 35
          Quote: cat Rusich
          Conditional example. Fighter (comrade major, battalion commander) - service PM (or pistol Kozlov Udav) why does he need a "carbine-kit"? - the battalion commander was going to fight "in the forefront", and not command from the headquarters? The meaning of such examples is that when a "fighter" has the only personal weapon, a pistol, there is no need to take part in a shootout. In case of a forced skirmish in the combat zone, they give PP (or AKSU in the Russian army). Another example: the story of Stechkin (APS), was removed from service. Complained: heavy (1,22 kg + 0,56 kg holster) + 4 magazines of 20 rounds each, replaced with AKSU.


          In the article, its purpose is described:

          What is a carabiner kit for? For example, in a situation where concealed carrying of weapons is necessary, but at the same time, in the event of a complication of the situation, it may be necessary to increase firepower. A "strapped" carbine kit can be left in a car, or stored indoors in a relatively unprotected environment, while a SMG or assault rifle can hardly be left unattended outside the gun room. Another option is the use by military personnel or employees of other law enforcement agencies, who, on duty, are not entitled to any other weapon other than a pistol.


          I don’t know why many decided that a carabiner-kit would give each fighter an appendage. This is a niche solution, but in its niche it can become quite useful and effective.

          Especially taking into account the fact that the pistol for small-caliber cartridges proposed in the previous material should initially have a greater range of target destruction. If the cartridge allows you to hit the target at a range of 100-200 meters, but it’s difficult to get further 50 meters from the gun, then a carabiner kit with a collimator sight will easily make it possible.

          And by the way, in the comments they often say that the carbine kit costs 500 $, and put this price on our weapons. But if you compare the cost of our and foreign weapons, and correlate it to a carabiner kit, then it may well cost about 200 $.
        2. 0
          28 October 2019 09: 11
          For Aremean use, in particular for officer use - a carabiner kit is absolutely unnecessary
          In army conditions, the “gain” is to take a machine gun), and not to puff with a gun
          A carabiner whale is an outlet for those who do not have the opportunity to take an assault rifle, carbine, PP or some other full-fledged weapon, but there is only a gun and a dangerous situation
  26. 0
    22 October 2019 10: 53
    Quote: AVM
    The mere presence of something does not mean the need to carry it all the time and all at once.

    This is clear. But the minimum "whale" (pistol + "pribluda" + sight) is already comparable in weight and size to the CP-3 Whirlwind. But 9x21 and 9x39 are two big differences, and you don't need to lead to a normal battle every time - put in a magazine and fight.
    Quote: AVM
    Firstly, regarding the carriage scheme, it is quite possible that its effectiveness is overestimated, and just an ultra-high rate of fire of 1800-2000 rounds / min would be quite enough.

    No, not overrated. It’s just that the military understands that it is impossible to ensure a bullet in a bullet - there are no conditions for the repeatability of the shot due to a bunch of factors. Up to the point that bullets have deviations in mass and shape during production.
    Quote: AVM
    Thirdly, the question is how the spread increases with distance. What will it be like on 5 m - 10 m - 15 m?
    If 15 cm at 50 meters, then at 25 meters will be 7 cm or 5 cm? And at 15 meters - the spread will be 2-3-5 cm?

    And what's the point of analyzing this if we need 3 ... 5mm? Again, there is a video with the "shooting" of the armor plate of an army body armor (USA) from AR and AKM. Of course, the cartridges are not special, but it is clearly seen that even close hits do not provide penetration. Only after the accumulation of hits did the armor plate give up - the ceramics collapsed. And what if there is not brittle ceramics, but an alloy with a good toughness index? Channel "Destructive ranch" EMNIP.
    Quote: AVM
    Well and most importantly, first of all, two bullets at a time are necessary to increase the likelihood of hitting a target, as there is a corresponding plate.

    Again, this is exactly what the ABAKAN competition was for, where the future AN-94 with its unique "two" won. But the military was then interested in the high probability of hitting, and not in the whole defeat. It was believed that if a 5,45 caliber bullet hit (anywhere), then the goal was achieved.
    Quote: AVM
    The chance of an unsuccessful (for the opponent) hit is simply higher.

    Characteristic is the model of the gun, adopted by the US. This is an ordinary, albeit modular, pistol for the most popular cartridges in the United States. Without super armor penetration in TK. The main motive for adoption was not the unique characteristics of ZigZauer, but the banal material wear. Well, moral obsolescence to the heap.
  27. 0
    23 October 2019 09: 31
    such decisions are made not on the basis of personal experience, but on the basis of a comprehensive analysis of previous and predicted situations.


    Yes, FIG knows. In battle, do not take too much. Even body armor, has exactly as many armor plates as you need according to statistics and personal experience.
  28. 0
    10 January 2020 08: 41
    Andrew!
    Thank you for the article!
  29. 0
    10 January 2020 08: 57
    It seems to me that there is another branch of the development of the automatic pistol system, firing bursts and a carbine kit.

    Imagine an automatic rifle under a rifle cartridge in a bullpap layout.
    The gun plays the role of a quick-detachable pistol grip for a rifle and has the following capabilities:
    * serve as a trigger for a rifle;
    * shoot, being attached to the lengthening of its own barrel, which in turn is attached to a carbine kit, which in turn is attached to a rifle.
    * be instantly disconnected from the carabiner kit and, therefore, from the rifle and used as a regular gun.
    * to be quickly disconnected together with a carbine kit (including extension of the gun barrel) from the rifle and used as a submachine gun.

    The role of a carabiner kit can be played by reinforced picatini straps with already installed universal optics for a rifle and a submachine gun.

    An optional grenade launcher is attached to the carabiner kit (with or without a pistol grip interchangeable with the main grip).

    Accordingly, we have the reincarnation of an infantry unit with submachine guns built around a single machine gun (like the Germans' MG in WWII), only each fighter now has his own "SVT", which is hung on his shoulders in close combat or is thrown back and "PPSh" is used.

    In this case, an intermediate cartridge is not needed and you need a large ammunition of rifle cartridges that everyone can use at any time and a large supply of pistol cartridges.