Military Review

Army pistol in Russia. Part of 2

195
After the failure of the П-96 pistol, the Tula State Unitary Enterprise "KBP" thoroughly reworked the design of the promising army pistol, presenting the GSH-2000 pistol at the beginning of the 18-s.


During the development, various ways of locking the barrel were considered - a swinging wedge, as in the German Walther P38 pistol, and an earring, as in the TT pistol. In the final version, neither the first nor the second version was approved, and the scheme of locking by turning the barrel was implemented due to the interaction of the protrusion on the breech breech with the groove of the pistol frame shell.

The barrel engages with the gate with ten stops located in the front part, with the coupling fixedly mounted in the gate. When locked, the barrel rotates 18 degrees (the P-96 had one stop and a turn of 30 degrees.

The trigger mechanism (USM) of the GSH-18 pistol is conceptually similar to the USS of the Austrian Glock pistol - firing pin, with an automatic trigger fuse (in the Sport version there is no automatic fuse on the trigger). The trigger moves straight (trigger) when pressed, resembles the trigger of a TT pistol.

The manufacturer, GUP KBP (currently KBP AO), often contrasted the GSH-18 with the Glock-17 pistol, indicating a smaller number of parts and weight, the ability to work in polluted conditions and technological simplicity of production.


Device and principle of operation of the gun GSH-18

Unfortunately, with real comparison, everything is not so rosy. Personal experience, albeit small, shows that the shooting of the Glock-17 pistol is much more comfortable compared to the shooting of the GSH-18 (GSH-18 in the sports version). The disadvantages of the latter can be attributed to the higher complexity of the equipment store, less comfortable descent, less convenience of distorting the shutter due to the small area of ​​the side faces (slips). When fired, the sleeve does not fly out to the side, but vertically upwards, trying to hit the head or the collar, which also does not add comfort to shooting.

The overall manufacturing quality of the HS-18 pistol is much worse than that of the Glock-17. According to the shooting instructor, after 10 000 shots (sporting cartridges, non-armor-piercing 7H31), GSH-18 must be sent to the factory for recovery. Glock-17 withstands more 100 000 shots (and sometimes 200 000 shots).


Gun GSH-18 and his counterpart Glock-17 of the fifth generation (images may not coincide in scale)


Formally, the GSH-18 was adopted by the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation, but in fact procurement was carried out in minimal quantities.

There are enough materials on the Internet claiming that Glock pistols are not suitable for arming the army, as they can fail if polluted. But personally, I would prefer a pistol, which, although it may stop working when contaminated, is guaranteed to work reliably in normal conditions than a pistol that can refuse at any time due to the abominable workmanship, if it is theoretically possible to work in the dirt.

Nevertheless, the work on fine-tuning the pistol is proceeding slowly, which can be judged by the appearance on the manufacturer's website of a photograph of an updated version of the GSH-18. Hopefully, though a small but real market for sports weapons, will force the manufacturer to pay attention to his offspring, bring it to the “mind” and solve the problems of production quality.

It will not be superfluous to create GSh-18 in the version chambered for .40 S&W and create a compact modification modeled on the Glock-26/27 pistols.

Army pistol in Russia. Part of 2

Image of the extreme version of the GSH-18 from the manufacturer's website


Of course, Izhevsk Mechanical Plant could not stay away from the theme of the development of an army pistol. In 1993, in the framework of the R & D “Grach”, the pistol of the Yarygin design (ПЯ) with the same name “Grach” was presented.

The Yarygin pistol has a classic design based on a short rollback of the barrel and its rigid locking by a bias in the vertical plane. Locking is carried out by a protrusion in the breech breech for the window for ejection of the sleeves in the bolt.

The shutter and frame of the gun are made of steel. In the gun Yarygin used trigger double action, with openly located trigger. The automatic fuse is two-sided, located on the frame, and when turned on, blocks the trigger, sear and the bolt, the trigger with the fuse turned on can be blocked both in the cocked and in the deflated state. 17 magazine capacity.


Device and principle of operation of the gun Yarygin

Formally, Yarygin's 9-mm pistol was declared the winner and adopted by the Russian Armed Forces. In the future, the gun was purchased not only by the Armed Forces, but also by other Russian security forces.

The pistol Yarygin, like his fellow to the competition, the pistol GSH-18, pursues problems of workmanship. The gun turned out to be quite voluminous and heavy; it may seem inconvenient to carry it on a regular basis after the PM.


Gun Yarygin MP443


On the basis of the Yarygin pistol, several variants of civilian pistols were developed - the MP-445 Varyag and the MP-446 Viking.

In the same period, the MP-444 “Bagira” pistol was developed for 9-mm cartridges: 9 × 17K, 9 × 18М and 9 × 19 Parabellum.

The frame of the gun “Bagira” is made of high-strength thermoplastic molding, it includes stamped front and rear guides. When unlocking - locking the barrel moves due to the interaction of the bevel on the lower protrusion of the barrel with the bevel on the basis of the back-buffer mechanism. The back-buffer mechanism provides shock and barrel damping in the rearmost position

In this gun applied original trigger. On the one hand, it is of the striker type, but at the same time there is a special striker of the striker, resembling a trigger, which allows the shooter to cock the striker manually and thus carry out firing both by self-cocking and with a previously cocked striker.

The gun MP-444 "Bagheera" remained a prototype.


Pistol MP-444 "Bagheera"


Another prototype was the MP-445 Varyag pistol, the design of which is based on the Yarygin pistol. The MP-445 Varyag pistol was intended for the civilian market and was to be produced in calibers 9x19 and .40 S&W in full-size and compact versions. The body of the MP-445 is made of polymer, structurally the pistol is similar to the MP-443.


Pistol MP-445 "Varyag"


The most successful modification of the pistol Yarygin was the pistol MP-446 "Viking", which differs from its combat prototype in its material frame. In MP-443, it is made of steel; in MP-446, the frame is made of high-strength polymer.

It was this gun that began to be purchased in large quantities by shooting galleries and the practitioners' athletes. First of all, this was due to the minimal cost of the MP-446 - from 20 000 rubles at the present time. The low price forces users to close on numerous Viking operational problems, especially during the initial release period.

During the pistol shooting exercises of the MP-446 "Viking", I shot several thousand rounds of ammunition. During all this time, when firing a pistol belonging to a rifle organization (that is, operated by many people) with not the highest quality cartridges, there were only a few delays / distortions. The partner once had a malfunction in the same gun, which required its repair. According to personal feelings, the pistol at first seems uncomfortable, the handle is large for shooters with a small hand, but then you get used to it. In early edition pistols, stores were often incompatible (a magazine from one pistol did not fit the other and vice versa).

Shooters who practice practical shooting professionally usually change the MP-446 to foreign models, for example, the Czech CZ or the Austrian Glock.

However, competition in the market of short-arms sporting weapons forces the Izhevsk Mechanical Plant, part of the Kalashnikov Concern, to develop its offspring. In 2016, an improved model was presented - the Viking-M pistol with the main parts resource increased to 50 000.

A large notch appeared on the shutter, including in the front part of the shutter, a Picatinny rail was added for mounting additional accessories. Thanks to the weighting in the front of the frame of the pistol, as well as the elongated and thickened barrel, the balance of the pistol has been improved and its lift has been reduced during firing. For the Viking-M pistol, a new magazine was developed with a single-row cartridge output, however, the gun is compatible with both types of stores, both with single-row and with two-row cartridge output.

Modernization of the Viking pistol in Viking-M is very important, since the developments used in it can later be implemented in the design of the Yarygin MP-443 army pistol. There is no doubt that the Kalashnikov concern would have to compete in the relatively open market of the sports “short bar”, if the gun had been modernized, it would have been an order of magnitude slower, which once again underlines the importance of the civilian weapons market in the country.

I would very much like to hope that the country's arms concerns will resist the temptation by administrative measures to limit access to the domestic market for foreign weapons. This step, although it will bring financial benefits in the short term, will completely discourage their desire to develop and improve their products.


Pistols "Viking-M" (above) and "Viking" (below)



Presentation of the Viking-M pistol from the Kalashnikov concern

In 2012, information appeared in the media about the next Russian murderer of Glock - a Strike One pistol / Swift. The Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation, at that time it was D. O. Rogozin, said that the Swift pistol would be put into service and replace Makarov pistols and Yarygin pistols in the Russian Armed Forces.

Later, representatives of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation reported that the Swift pistol was supposed to be included in the Ratnik equipment, but that will be later, but for now the army will buy Gyurza and PJ pistols. And after a couple of months, it was reported at all that the Swift pistol did not pass state tests and was rejected.

The lack of reliable test data does not allow us to understand what the Swift gun of the military didn’t specifically suit, and whether there are any “pitfalls” here, especially considering the fact that the testing center where the tests were carried out is itself a weapon manufacturer and claims delivery of the RF Armed Forces army pistols.

In general, given the fact that pistols are not an atomic bomb, and there can be nothing particularly secret about them, it is quite possible to publish test videos. If you, Russian developers, are confident that our guns are many times superior to foreign ones when working in polluted conditions, show it, get additional competitive advantages, and taxpayers will be able to see that their money is being spent for good reason.

Returning to the pistol "Swift." The developer and manufacturer of the pistol is a joint Russian-Italian company Arsenal Firearms. The gun itself is conceptually and visually reminiscent of the very Glock, which it opposes.

A feature of the pistol "Swift" is a lower position of the barrel relative to the handle, which reduces the toss of the barrel when firing. The barrel of the gun moves along the frame along the guides, locking is carried out by a U-shaped liner that is movable in a vertical plane. In the gun used trigger US type, single action, with a partial cocking of the drummer.

Currently, the Swift pistol as such does not exist anymore, yes, however, it most likely did not exist, but the Italian Strike One pistol hastily adapted for the Russian market.

Arsenal Firearms re-branded due to a trademark dispute, and in the United States became known as Archon Firearms. The Strike One pistol has also undergone a design change, and is being marketed under the name Stryk B. In Russia, the Stryk B pistol can be purchased as a sports weapon.


Pistols "Strike One" (left) and "Stryk B" (right)



Strike One pistol in a body kit that turns it into a compact carbine


Once again, the theme of the army pistol surfaced in 2015, when the Kalashnikov concern presented, developed by the designer Dmitry Lebedev, the perspective PL-14 pistol, after modification renamed the PL-15.

Lebedev's pistol PL-15 uses automatic with the use of recoil bolt, coupled with the barrel, with a short course of the barrel. Unlocking is carried out by lowering the breech breech with a shaped tide under the breech breech. The barrel is locked by a protrusion in the upper part of the barrel by the window for ejection of liners.

The frame of the gun is made of aluminum alloy, in the future we plan to use a frame of high-strength polymer, the maximum thickness of the handle is 28 mm. USM pistol PL-15 trigger, with a hidden trigger and inertial drummer, only double action (descent force is 4 kg, trigger trigger 7 mm). There is a two-sided manual fuse.

A variant of the pistol PL-15-01, which has a single-action impact trigger, with a reduced descent force and trigger stroke, has been developed. Also developed a shortened version - PL-15K.

At the end of 2018, the managing director of the Izhevsk Mechanical Plant, Alexander Gvozdika, said that the mass production of the PL-15 pistol would begin in 2019 on the new process equipment. The gun will be produced for power structures and for civilian (read sports) use. At the international exhibition of weapons IDEX, which was held in Abu Dhabi in February 2019, the sports version of the submarine PL-15 - pistol SP1 was presented.

It would be extremely useful if, before being put into service, the PL-15 pistol would have been released in the sports version, and “walked” around the market for several years, in order to reveal all possible design flaws. No experience will replace such an experience, you can give an example from another sphere, when a seemingly repeatedly tested product - a Samsung Galaxy Note 7 smartphone, suddenly exploded when it hit the real users.


Pistols PL-15 and PL-15K



Estimated set to the pistol PL-15, which allows to turn it into a carbine with an elongated barrel (perhaps the fruit of someone's imagination)


Another potential contender for the title of an army pistol is the self-loading pistol Udav developed by TsNIItochmash. The first information about this gun appeared in 2016 year, but they actively talked about this gun in 2019 year, in connection with the end of state tests.

The gun "boa" is designed to replace the self-loading pistol Serdyukov ATP (CP-1M, "Gurza / Vector") and uses the same ammunition caliber 9x21. Due to the fact that the cartridge 9х21 is used mainly by special units, to say that the gun "Boa" will become the main army gun wrong, rather, he, like the "Gyurza", will be purchased in limited quantities. And to speak about the replacement of this Makarov pistol in the Ministry of Internal Affairs is at least strange.

The gun Boa has a classic design using the recoil energy of the barrel during its short course. Coupling of the barrel and the bolt is carried out by a protrusion in the breech breech with a window for ejection of sleeves, tripping occurs when a figure cutout under the barrel interacts with the frame elements. The frame is made of polymer with steel bearing elements.

Trigger trigger, double action, with openly located trigger. The manual safety levers are duplicated on both sides of the bolt. The capacity of the detachable box magazine with a double-row output is 18 cartridges. An interesting feature of the gun "Boa" is an automatic slide latch; the shutter is removed from the delay automatically when a new store is installed.

It is unlikely that the "Boa" will appear in a commercial version if it is not released in the version for the cartridge, for example, 9x19.


Gun "boa" caliber 9х21


In general, an interesting practice has recently taken shape in Russia. A new pistol appears, the media sing the praises for it, with the obligatory indication of how much it surpasses the world analogues in general, and the Glock pistols in particular. After some time, the hype subsides, sluggishly appear messages about testing and soon adopting, and then information about the next killer iphone Gloka quietly disappears. Ultimately, the Armed Forces and the Ministry of Internal Affairs remain with the PM.

As a result, there are classic Russian questions: who is to blame and what to do?

The easiest way to explain the problems of an army pistol in Russia is the conflict of mutually exclusive interests of arms enterprises and concerns. This is certainly the case, but such is the nature of the market. There was lobbying of interests and undercover bickering not only in Russia, but also in the USA, and in all other countries of the world, it was also in the USSR.

The problem is that in the USA there is a huge domestic market, whose consumers cannot be won by sweet tales. As part of the competition for this market, weak manufacturers are eliminated, the designs of pistols and other weapons are polished, and production lines are improved.

When the moment comes to select a new army pistol, potential suppliers do not need to develop fundamentally new weapons. They take the gun, adopted by the market, the design of which has been worked out by millions of users, and on its basis, often almost without alterations, is offered by its US Army.

And no tricks, and numerous trials will not replace the collective experience gained by manufacturers of weapons from independent users who are not bound by the rule "you will eat what they give." In the end, almost any of the alleged army pistols - GSH-18, PJ, PL-15 or other, can be brought to the required level of quality and suitable for use as an army / police pistol. The question is how many “cones” will be collected in the process of bringing this weapon “to the mind”, and how much time / money will be spent.

What should be done first?

First, to teach to shoot those users of pistols, which they put on duty, and to teach to shoot from what they own now. If an officer of the Armed Forces or the Interior Ministry carries a PM, then give him the opportunity to train in shooting from him, and oblige this opportunity to use, rather than wait for the miracle of a pistol to appear, at the sight of which the enemy immediately drops dead from one of his views. And the consumption of cartridges for these trainings should be at least several hundred per month per person - this is the bare minimum. Targeting the rules of safe handling of weapons adopted at practical shooting competitions in the head.

It is better to be able to shoot from the PM than not to be able to from the Glock.

Domestic enterprises need to stop the vicious practice of targeting the lowest price segment of the market. The lower the price, the lower the salary of the workers, the worse the equipment, and hence the worse product quality and, consequently, the low price. In general, a vicious circle.

The only thing that can motivate weapons manufacturers to develop is competition in the open arms market, including for foreign manufacturers. Even the insignificant volumes that are being implemented now for practicing athletes are forcing manufacturers to move forward. In the case of legalization of rifled short arms for citizens of the Russian Federation, sales will amount to hundreds of thousands - millions.

As a result, the Armed Forces, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and other law enforcement agencies will be able to receive guaranteed high-quality weapons, as well as employees capable of competently using them. In the meantime, both in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation and in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation, the Makarov pistol remains the most common and reliable weapon of its class.
Author:
Photos used:
guns.ru, modernfirearms.net, yaplakal.com, kbptula.ru, drive2.ru, spezinform.ru, armoury-online.ru
Articles from this series:
Army pistol in Russia. Part of 1
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  1. Vladimir 5
    Vladimir 5 April 2 2019 18: 21
    +3
    According to the article, he drew attention to the criticism of GS-18, which is based on poor-quality weapons. If only this means improving quality is not a problem, which means that the design is no problem. Why, with such a proposal, there is no accepted main gun for the RF Armed Forces. When Serdyukov and Rogozin are the main ones, there will be no other ...
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 18: 51
      +2
      I don’t know if the quality of workmanship will make this trigger descent work fine ... for 1911, the trigger descent also works well, especially if the gunsmith knows what to saw there.
      1. 3danimal
        3danimal 15 October 2019 17: 16
        0
        You can turn to historical experience (in many countries): to produce a successful foreign model under license. And only after some time, after accumulating experience in production and operation, to create your own on its base (with or without quotes).
    2. Amurets
      Amurets April 2 2019 23: 54
      +2
      Quote: Vladimir 5
      Why, with such a proposal, there is no accepted main gun for the RF Armed Forces. When Serdyukov and Rogozin are the main ones, there will be no other ...

      In several publications I read that K.E. Voroshilov personally fired from pistols proposed for adoption. Bolotin wrote very well about this: “Repeated tests of the pistols of Rakov, Korovin, Voevodin and Tokarev were carried out in May 1939. Based on the results obtained, the pistol of Rakov was presented for the first prize and recommended for mass production. The commission proposed to issue the second prize to Korovin. The pistols of Rakov and Korovin were presented to K.E. Voroshilov, who, after personally testing them, canceled the commission's decision and gave instructions on further improvement of the samples.
      1. Ruger-para
        Ruger-para April 5 2019 11: 51
        0
        Why did you cancel it? Strange, but I heard Korovin had a wonderful example, I read it from childhood. Why did TT go into the series?
        1. Amurets
          Amurets April 5 2019 13: 28
          +3
          Quote: Ruger-para
          Why did you cancel it? Strange, but I heard Korovin had a wonderful example, I read it from childhood. Why did TT go into the series?
          This is not the period, this is the competition in 1938, continued in 1939, and it was held just at the choice of a pistol to replace the TT. "To equip the Soviet Army with a more advanced pistol, on May 17, 1938, by order of the People's Commissar of Defense and the People's Commissar of the Defense Industry, a competition was announced for the design and manufacture of a new sample of 7,62-mm self-loading pistol2." D.N.Bolotin. "Soviet small arms". And only the Second World War prevented the adoption of the winner of the competition Voevodin's pistol.
          1. Ruger-para
            Ruger-para April 5 2019 21: 28
            +1
            Thank you, clearly
    3. vkl.47
      vkl.47 April 3 2019 08: 08
      0
      As for the "boa constrictor."
      1. vkl.47
        vkl.47 April 3 2019 08: 10
        0
        [https://buc.kim/d/11pllbatwam2?pub=video] YouTube
        1. vkl.47
          vkl.47 April 3 2019 08: 24
          -1
          Normally, generally with the administrator’s head ??? I’m trying to give a video on the topic with a link. In addition, you can’t fill in the address, so you still forbid comments.
      2. YOUR
        YOUR April 3 2019 16: 08
        +1
        Yes, over the past 20 -25 years, so many samples of pistols have been proposed and not one has reached the troops. As it was in the PM troops, it remained. With rare exceptions.
        Various pistols arrived at the Ministry of Internal Affairs in small batches, but we still see policemen with PM on the streets. In the UK and the Prosecutor's Office there, yes, there are a lot of trunks abroad. Again, the status shows the trunk, in which I am the main thing, you have all garbage and I have a barrel over there.
        For some reason, it seems to me that there will be no replacement for PM for a long long time.
        1. Ruger-para
          Ruger-para April 5 2019 11: 53
          +1
          Because Makarov, a genius, brought the filing of a cartridge into the barrel for almost a year! -That’s PM.a left ...
          1. Simargl
            Simargl April 21 2019 09: 20
            +1
            Quote: Ruger-para
            Because Makarov, a genius, brought the filing of a cartridge into the barrel for almost a year! -That’s PM.a left ...
            A genius, then he is a genius, but the one who invented the cartridge, for which he had to "knock on the tambourine" so that he would not be bitten when serving, had to immediately tear his hands off.
            1. 3danimal
              3danimal 15 October 2019 17: 17
              0
              Everything is simpler: it was not necessary to adopt this cartridge. There was a successful 9x19 Para.
              1. Simargl
                Simargl 16 October 2019 15: 49
                0
                With our quality of gunpowder at that time ... 9x21?
                1. 3danimal
                  3danimal 17 October 2019 13: 57
                  +1
                  Everything was the best with us)
                  With any quality. And copying the Browning HP would be great
    4. Frieda
      Frieda April 3 2019 10: 37
      +9
      Personal experience, albeit small, shows that firing a Glock-17 pistol is much more comfortable compared to firing a GSh-18 (GSh-18 in a sports modification) ... The overall manufacturing quality of the GSh-18 pistol is much worse than at Glock-17. According to the shooting range instructor, after 10 shots (with sporting cartridges, not 000N7 armor-piercing), the GS-31 must be sent to the factory for restoration. Glock-18 can easily withstand more than 17 shots (and sometimes 100 shots).

      Apparently the author's experience of using Glock is really small, otherwise he would have known about such a "comfortable" phenomenon as glockbit, which is completely absent in GS. As for the quality, of course, the GSh valve milled from the forging is inferior to the Glock valve made by powder technology, because the sintered powder is obviously stronger than forged steel, everyone knows that laughing ... Yes, and the instructor in the shooting range should have asked how many "broken" frames from Glock in his collection and how many from the General Staff, yes yes, the frames from Glock have a resource and it is clearly less than the declared 100000 shots, the experience of the Practical Shooting Federation to help, in dash, if it is certainly not Western and not FPSovsky, not a single barrel has such a shot, yes, I almost forgot, there have been cases when Glock's breeches broke when dropped on a concrete floor, this is certainly an extremely rare exception, but oak shovels "this has never happened. And so the article is excellent, an unconditional plus, it would be worth continuing the topic. hi
  2. Zakonnik
    Zakonnik April 2 2019 18: 39
    +3
    Regarding legalization of short water - it is not harmful to dream
  3. Strashila
    Strashila April 2 2019 18: 40
    +12
    "It is better to be able to shoot with a PM than not to be able to use a Glock", right words. He can follow the path from good, they are not looking for good. Let's take the experience of Vietnam, the guys do not wrap themselves up, they just bring to mind the current system of the TT pistol, the volume of the clip, the length of the barrel. Conditionally, let's take the old time-tested PM, not even PMM, namely PM, its scheme chambered for 9 x 18, which are in warehouses for more than one nuclear war, follow the path of the Vietnamese comrades and perhaps we already have everything, we must bring it to its logical conclusion. But in fact, we will run into the personal ambitious or financial interest of some chela and everything will go into the manure.
    1. wooja
      wooja April 2 2019 18: 47
      +2
      not meaningless ...., but there will not be enough money for sawing ....
    2. Vladimir 5
      Vladimir 5 April 2 2019 19: 00
      0
      Scary ... The cartridge for the MO needs a more powerful, 9x21 suitable. Here are 9x18 and PM only for the police and security ... PM is outdated throughout and will not be pulled into combat under any form and improvements.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 40
        -1
        Why do you hate cops so much? For the police, 9x18 is also not enough today.
        1. Vladimir 5
          Vladimir 5 April 3 2019 18: 23
          0
          A horse, a cannibal cannibal ... If you don’t understand this, then raise your literacy .. I’ll explain: .In developed countries, policemen are generally given ammunition with aluminum and other bullets so that they do not ricochet and quickly lose slaughter ... After all, the necessary shooting can begin in crowded places. In special police units, there are already different weapons and tasks ..
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya April 3 2019 03: 23
        0
        Quote: Vladimir 5
        The cartridge for the MO needs a more powerful, 9x21 suitable.

        That is, do you propose to take away machine guns from military personnel of the RF Armed Forces, give them pistols instead, and send them into battle with a gun in your hand? And what? The cartridge at the pistol is 9 * 21, this weapon will be more powerful than the machine gun! am
        1. Vladimir 5
          Vladimir 5 April 3 2019 19: 28
          0
          Cat Kuzya. Here is the enemy in body armor 4kl. , you have a gun with 9X19 (a pair), bullets, there will be no penetration, and with 9X21 you will get .. As one Japanese said, if you need to use a sword once, wear it and you need to use your whole life .... You understand that you wrote without thinking ...
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya April 4 2019 00: 15
            +4
            And why should I shoot the enemy with a pistil, if I have a gun on my hands?
            1. Vladimir 5
              Vladimir 5 April 4 2019 10: 08
              -1
              To what incomprehensible cats have gone, they strive to constantly jump without a reserve parachute, sometime they jump when the main one does not work ...
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya April 4 2019 13: 19
                +2
                For example, I, and none of my friends, have ever fallen into such situations in the database where a gun was needed. Everyone has either machine guns, or SVD, or machine guns as an individual weapon, and if any, the pestle is redundant. For example, a Glock 17 with a loaded magazine, a holster and a couple of stores weighs about 1700 g, which is the weight of three stores for the AK-74 with 90 rounds. Anyone who participated in the database would prefer to take three extra stores to their machine gun than the useless pestle with 51 rounds of ammunition, which can only be aimed at 30 meters from the sight, and then the bullet has less breakdown power than a machine gun. Or instead of the pestle, you can take 5-6 grenades RGN.
                1. Vladimir 5
                  Vladimir 5 April 4 2019 14: 18
                  0
                  Kot_K .. I answer the stubborn cat (cats are all stubborn). A military pistol (usually 15-16 rounds) is worn in a convenient place on hand (on the thigh or similar). Weight in today's version is up to 1 kg or less. spare stores do not carry. (optional) Use in unexpected situations .. (explain possible, a long list - from the morning toilet to sleep in the database area). not to be confused with military weapons. Why did the German machine gunners of the Wehrmacht regularly give out a pistol, the Germans docks in military affairs, - saved the lives of special soldiers, because the machine gunner replaced the whole compartment of the soldiers, and were strong in selection ...
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya April 4 2019 14: 43
                    +3
                    A military pistol (usually 15-16 rounds) is worn in a convenient place on hand (on the thigh or similar)
                    That is, in a holster. I poorly imagine that the gun was worn in a pocket or behind a belt or behind a load. Well, Glock17 with a loaded 17 round magazine magazine weighs 1200 g with a holster, which is the weight of two AK-74 magazines. So, the question, dear DB participants: which is better: to carry a pestle with 17 rounds or two magazines with a total capacity of 60 rounds? Or maybe it’s better to take 4 RGN grenades instead of a pestle?
                    1. Vladimir 5
                      Vladimir 5 April 4 2019 14: 47
                      -4
                      Cat = donkey? The treatment is useless, congenital is not treated ... For some reason, ALL pros wear pistols, and cats don’t want to ...
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya April 4 2019 23: 49
                        +2
                        Vovka, in the database zone everyone wears machine guns, rifles or light machine guns. I have not seen a single soldier below the company commander who would go with a pestle. Even in the battalion commander and regiment, we had a personal automatic machine in case of an enemy invasion. Nobody at us perceived a pistil as a weapon.
                      2. Vladimir 5
                        Vladimir 5 April 5 2019 10: 37
                        -4
                        The cat ... Finally understood the reason for such allegations. She is in poor equipment, when even the sights are not normal with optics and other things, the choice of AK or SVD and all. Pistols, - a small shot of PM certainly is no good and right, there’s no reason to wear such a thing ... Yes, there is no reason to talk about the pros.
                      3. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya April 5 2019 11: 25
                        +2
                        With such a Vovka, I would not go into reconnaissance :))))
      3. Vladimir Lenin
        Vladimir Lenin April 7 2019 22: 58
        0
        As I understand it, you only saw the war in the movies and on TV ?!
    3. 3danimal
      3danimal 15 October 2019 17: 26
      0
      Will not be. Breaks through the 2nd class of protection (maximum 3), at close range. And the OD is not comparable less than that of 5,45x39
  4. Strashila
    Strashila April 3 2019 05: 02
    +1
    If you take the nomenclature of cartridges for PM which are not there, including armor-piercing ones. The question is what distance is it to use. You need to understand the gun is not an automatic weapon, the battle distance is ten meters. Elongation of the barrel will increase the speed of the bullet and at the same distance of 10-15 m, the damaging factor will increase, with a barrel length of 93,5 mm, the aiming range of 50 m for the PM, the range of the bullet is 350 m to which the lethal effect of the bullet is preserved, then for APS with a length barrel 140 mm sighting range is already 200 m, and the cartridge is the same.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya April 3 2019 06: 02
      +6
      The aiming range is rubbish, for example, with the Mosin rifle 91/30, the aiming range is 2000 m with a barrel of 730 mm, and the Mosin carbine sighting range of 1000 m with a barrel of 510 mm. Or the PPSh of the sample of 1940 g, it has an aiming range of 500 m, but since 1942 they began to produce PPSh with an aiming range of 200 m, since none of the PPSh fired at 500 m, since it was meaningless because of the huge dispersion. Or the example is even worse: the M96 M1000 had an aiming bar notched up to XNUMX m, but of course it is clear that it is impossible to conduct aimed fire at such a distance, it was just a marketing move.
  5. 3danimal
    3danimal 15 October 2019 17: 21
    0
    For militia / police / army - it was necessary to take PMM. And don't bother. And in parallel to work out a new one, or start producing a successful foreign one. The same CZ or H&K USP, or Sig-220 ..
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 38
    -1
    Let’s take the experience of Vietnam, the guys don’t wrap up just bring to mind the current TT pistol system,


    There is a nuance. The average Vietnamese is the size of an average dog. He has smaller body geometries, smaller organ sizes, and more organ damage from TT bullets relative to the size of his body and organs.
    1. Avior
      Avior April 2 2019 23: 37
      +4
      it is doubtful that the Vietnamese produce an army pistol for firing at the Vietnamese.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 3 2019 00: 31
        +1
        The Americans did not make a small-caliber pistol specifically for the Vietnamese, but used 1911, which they did according to the experience of the Philippine war against Moro drug addicts.

        I suspect that 1911 brought down the Vietnamese faster than the Vietnamese TT - the Americans.

        And, here, I am sure that the TT, equal in size to the Vietnamese, is knocking down as confidently as the 1911 Americans themselves. True, for several decades now the Americans consider the FMJ .45 ASR caliber simple military bullet to be insufficient and recommend shooting at least twice at the target.
        1. Avior
          Avior April 3 2019 00: 45
          0
          He has smaller body geometries, smaller organ sizes, and more organ damage from TT bullets relative to the size of his body and organs.

          Well, the Vietnamese shouldn’t have to do according to their size, their opponents are quite normal in size
        2. Tank hard
          Tank hard April 3 2019 22: 10
          0
          I am surprised at your patience, because to some, at least .... in the eye, they are all God's dew. request
    2. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 April 3 2019 10: 04
      0
      Over the past 30 years, both height and weight of Vietnamese people have increased on average.
  • polar fox
    polar fox April 2 2019 19: 53
    +2
    Quote: Strashila
    9 x 18 cartridge, of which there are more than one nuclear war in warehouses,

    probably so ... but we, during my service, didn’t have them ... especially the rear officers. and again, and who will be taught to shoot, is that an amoeba from the personnel department?
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 20: 05
      0
      To "mobilize" for this the instructors of IPSC shooting clubs, of which there are many from Kaliningrad to Vladivostok.

      At least so ...
      1. Ingenegr
        Ingenegr April 2 2019 23: 41
        0
        Save Mars from this ... Maybe it’s better to appoint professional bulldozer instructors to drive tracked combat vehicles?
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul April 3 2019 00: 42
          +1
          The IPSC specialist instructor will fire at the results of any shooters or imagining themselves arrows. Specura shoots in principle the same IPSC exercises with the only difference being that the specura shoots 360 degrees, and IPSC shoots 180 degrees in the front hemisphere. And IPSC also holes in cardboard and brings metal down, and special equipment is entertained by shooting at its own in body armor.

          In order to train police officers and ordinary military (not a specialist) an IPSC instructor is enough. This will provide more hands-on experience than "thoughtfully shooting three rounds of 25 meters once a year."
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 18: 48
    +4
    Glock 17 of the 3rd generation (the current generation is the fifth) was disassembled into a frame, a shutter, a barrel and a return spring (not complete disassembly), thickly coated with everything copper grease, collected and shot the store. No delays.

    1. Maki Avellevich
      Maki Avellevich April 2 2019 20: 48
      0
      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
      Glock 17 of the 3rd generation (the current generation is the fifth) was disassembled into a frame, a bolt, a barrel and a return spring (not completely disassembled), thickly coated with copper grease, assembled and shot the store. No delays.

      and what is the achievement of glock? fine copper dust grease.
      apart from the retardation of mechanics, nothing should have happened.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 21: 09
        0
        Try to do this with a gun of Soviet or Russian design, if they have access.

        Copper grease is not the kind of grease that is used to improve the performance of weapons.
    2. Yuriy_999
      Yuriy_999 April 2 2019 20: 55
      +1
      densely coated all with copper grease

      I do not understand this. So explain - what's the catch?
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 21: 12
        +1
        Glock is designed to work dry (so that dirt, dust and sand do not stick to the oil). It is lubricated with 6 (six) drops of oil and a thick lubricant with copper particles inside was supposed to disrupt the operation of the trigger and automation.
        1. Yuriy_999
          Yuriy_999 April 3 2019 09: 08
          +1
          In my opinion, the key here
          (so that dirt, dust and sand do not stick to the oil)

          That is, if you grease and immediately shoot, it will work. If you grease it, vilify it and then shoot it - it won’t.
          As an example - if the studs on the wheel of the car are greased with solid oil, drive 50-100 kilometers, then they will loosen easily (better than dry). If you go 1000 - then they will stick.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 21 2019 13: 11
            0
            The key word here is "Glock smeared with six drops of oil."

            If you lubricate with six drops, everything will be fine even in dust and sand, since the contact area of ​​the frame and shutter at Glock is minimal. If you pour oil and throw in the sand - then it will not shoot long. Glock created to shoot almost dry.
            1. Yuriy_999
              Yuriy_999 April 24 2019 11: 47
              0
              The key here is why this video? It is clear that if the mechanism is properly lubricated and maintained, then it will work. But if it’s wrong, then it will work for some time anyway (if oil is drained from the internal combustion engine, it will work for some time). So this video. Well, they greased the gun with thick grease, well, they made several shots, so what? It was not filled with mud and sand.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 18: 59
    +1
    The lack of reliable test data does not allow us to understand what specifically the Swift pistol of the military did not suit,


    The European version of "Swift" Strike One, from those that were sold in Estonia, also refused from the owners to shoot ordinary "civilian" cartridges, not even reinforced by NATO. And with 7N31 there were probably problems with the Strizh.

    So then I’ve matzal in his hands - a pistol, like a pistol. It was already released directly from the factory for sports, the descent is good. Since I already had a fourth-generation Glock 17 at that time, there was no point in buying a Strike One. And it’s 200 Euro rubles more expensive than Glock.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 06
    +1
    "Stryke B" matsal in the store. My impression is that the pistol is made for sports. The descent is good. Made with high quality. Didn't shoot from him. The one that was the store is the size of a Glock 19.
  • Major_Vortex
    Major_Vortex April 2 2019 19: 08
    +1
    At GS-18, the automation circuitry works by locking by turning the barrel. The Italians in the Beretta Px4 Storm pistol also used locking by turning the barrel:




    The topic can be developed and brought to such a design of the gun to perfection. There are indisputable advantages of this scheme: the barrel remains on its axis when fired, does not bulge up and does not fall down when fired, a minimum of parts, less weight weapons. The angle of rotation of the barrel can be reduced by increasing the number of combat stops, as was done in the Gryazev and Shipunov pistol, where there are already 10 stops. By reducing the angle of rotation of the barrel, we can reduce the course of the barrel back and forth. Move the fighting stops from the front of the barrel as close as possible to the breech section of the barrel - the operation of the pistol automatics will improve, and this is a better place in the pistol for locating the bulk of parts and mechanisms, we will win both in the mass of the movable bolt and in the total mass of the weapon. Lower the trunk, make new pistol cartridge with reduced flange. USM trigger type as an option for a gun. Work on quality - it's all solved if you pay attention to it. The quality of surface treatment where problems are identified is raised. Modern wear-resistant and hard coatings to use in the gun. Shop to finalize. The convenience of holding the shutter when cocking is generally simpler than a steamed turnip: in addition to notches, make small vertical finger rests behind the notches, so that women can cock a gun, make vertical notches wider and more tenacious for fingers. The Americans brought their AR-15 to their minds for a long time, but they don’t want to abandon it, because the automation circuitry is very accurate, the rifle is light, and now you can’t force them to switch to a less heapy and heavier one. And here a good idea is not developed. The handle of the GSH-18 should be made more grip on the hand, so that the hand is better inserted and holds the weapon: under the middle finger, make a recess, other trifles.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 44
      +1
      The Slovak Grand Power is also with a swivel barrel. As he appeared, many athletes bought it, but systems with a rotating trunk are sensitive to pollution in this particular unit.

      Glock has released an experimental model 46 (competition for the German police), where the barrel also rotates.

      1. Major_Vortex
        Major_Vortex April 2 2019 20: 13
        +1
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        but systems with a turning barrel are sensitive to pollution in this particular node.

        If developed sensitive to pollution. GSH-18 with a rotary barrel passed all the hard tests for military pistols, but the Glock did not pass. The developers of the GSH-18 pistol were interviewed that this is the lightest design of the pistol, which passed all troop tests, is lighter than the Glock's design, which also did not pass the tests and did not suit the military.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 20: 52
          +1
          - Ah, here, and does not shoot! - Mikhalych exclaimed joyfully at the end of the trials Glock Bay epoxy.

          laughing

          Glock did not pass the test in the dust chamber.
          From the Glock company, the testers were then told that Glock is lubricated with 6 (six) drops of oil and shoots almost dry. If you do not read the user manual in a foreign language and fill the gun with oil, then, of course, dust will stick to the oil. Who ordered what test result - he received one. To the joy of domestic manufacturers.
          1. Major_Vortex
            Major_Vortex April 2 2019 21: 24
            +1
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            From the Glock company, the testers were then told that Glock is lubricated with 6 (six) drops of oil and shoots almost dry. If you do not read the user manual in a foreign language and fill the gun with oil, then, of course, dust will stick to the oil.

            Where do you collect these fables from? smile Is it in the company producing the glock that they spread about themselves? So this is a regular advertisement of the company's products. Do you believe that? Because of the oil, the gun jammed ... You won’t spoil the porridge with oil. They do not lubricate only the barrel inside, because the oil will burn out and contaminate the walls of the barrel at an accelerated rate, but the gun must withstand this. If a gun can jam from the fact that its parts of the mechanism are a little more greased - then what kind of gun is this? Humorist laughing
            He proved that sleeves with a reduced flange are not used in automatic weapons, when they are now being designed in the West for a wide range of weapons from pistols to the most powerful magnums, assault rifles, submachine guns from the 90s have been mass-produced for such cartridges and are used by special services many states. The Belgians showed - with a reduced flange, 6,8 mm SPC - with a reduced flange. They can all be done with a reduced flange, just in the USA people have a huge amount of weapons of various calibers on their hands and therefore all calibres are produced, including old ones, and even Soviet ones.
            The lightening of weapons and ammunition obtained by throwing out absolutely unnecessary mass, as in the case of a reduced sleeve flange, is a godsend for gunsmiths. This business began with a fascination with powerful magnums, which the developers wanted to work with standard, rather than enlarged, bolt groups of weapons, which are more bulky, heavy and expensive. You argued with me that "the sleeve will blow in", "strength material", "the microextractor will get stuck in the barrel" ... Nothing will work with clumsy hands. And where is the microextractor? Everything works there. They did not reduce the flange of the cartridge in ancient times, when they did not know how an ejector with a smaller diameter of the rim of the sleeve would work. And now cases for cartridges with different diameters of flanges are produced and extractors for all these cases have been working perfectly for a long time. Here is a sectional view of the reduced flange cartridge:

            What is wrong with him? And all Soviet and Russian cartridges with an ordinary flange or a protruding rim, which forces us to make bolts of weapons larger, more massive and heavier. Reduced flange is a gain in weapon characteristics. Maybe not everyone needs civilians, because one store in the glock and another spare one will fit in the closet anyway. And the rest of the advantages of weapons, as you wrote yourself, are not important for you, because you’ll get from the glock 10 meters.
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 21: 32
              0
              Dust and sand stick to excess oil, which work as an abrasive inside the gun. Glock is lubricated with six drops of oil. So in the user manual indicated and this should be done to operate the gun flawlessly. I use ceramic grease, which after drying is smooth and completely dry. This ceramic grease is also used inside the barrel! 21st century in the yard, comrade.

              The times of LeVolVertov, abundantly watered with olium irrevocably passed.

              Your idea of ​​\ uXNUMXb \ uXNUMXbfixing a miraculous reduced flange has been noted many times in many topics on the Military Review.
              1. Major_Vortex
                Major_Vortex April 2 2019 22: 58
                0
                Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                Your idea of ​​\ uXNUMXb \ uXNUMXbfixing a miraculous reduced flange has been noted many times in many topics on the Military Review.

                You were the most indignant at the VO from Lithuania that a reduced flange is impossible for a weapon, because "the micro-extractor will fly into the barrel" and "strength material" laughing I even remembered these your words. Why doesn’t it fly away from a weapon that is already being produced under cartridges with a reduced flange? It happens that the bolts break because they can not withstand the load from the recoil of powerful cartridges during stringent tests. But this is still at the stage of development and testing of weapons under very powerful cartridges, when the bolt is very weak from small-caliber weapons under very powerful cartridges, they are trying to adapt. You need to do a normal shutter. There will still be a gain in the dimensions of the shutter and its mass, the receiver is lighter, because the shutter is more compact and allows you to make the receiver stiffer and more compact. And ammo is lighter, like the weapon itself.

                Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                Dust and sand stick to excess oil, which work as an abrasive inside the gun. Glock is lubricated with six drops of oil. So in the user manual indicated and this should be done to operate the gun flawlessly. I use ceramic grease, which after drying is smooth and completely dry. This ceramic grease is also used inside the barrel! 21st century in the yard, comrade.

                The times of LeVolVertov, abundantly watered with olium irrevocably passed.

                I understood. You yourself thought up everything about Glock’s trials and why he didn’t pass the test cycle, although you didn’t see it, you don’t know, but you have your own point of view based on guesses. It was immediately necessary to warn that it was only your guesses.

                I don’t care what’s wrong with Glock. And what kind of olium were the revolvers poured into. I want Russia to have its own weapons, and not bought in Austria or Lithuania. And the weapon is good, and not so-so. For this, both the cartridges must be modern, and the weapon itself must be of high quality. Any gain in size and weight in the nodes of the weapon gives a gain and additional freedom of action for the designers of weapons to make weapons even better. It is time to move away from cartridges with a protruding rim in the 21st century, and improve flangeless cartridges by reducing the flange. In the West, even with the smallest caliber, they manage to even slightly reduce the flange, although there you will not be able to accelerate very much because of the capsule in the miniature cartridge. Engineers understand that this is necessary in weapons and what advantages it gives. I state the facts because I understand the advantages of such a solution. But in Russia I do not see this. Therefore, I write.
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul April 3 2019 00: 53
                  +2
                  Some people like rubber dolls, and others like smaller flanges.

                  I do not mind - love what you want. I don’t care who loves what.

                  In my opinion, the idea with a reduced flange is still a somewhat obsessive idea, although, as I already wrote, it doesn’t matter to me deeply.

                  hi
                  1. Major_Vortex
                    Major_Vortex April 3 2019 01: 08
                    0
                    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                    Some people like rubber dolls, and others like smaller flanges.

                    And you like your glock, so much so that in all topics only the advertisement of your glock. What will happen to you when you buy a more decent gun, from which you can also shoot well, and not just drag it with you? Someone likes rubber dolls, and someone likes glock, because he hasn’t tried anything better. Glock is a gun to pull. It is not considered to be particularly good for shooting. Glock is used by civilian self-defense and police. And already in more serious tenders with glock, not everything is clear. But it's still a good gun. It’s just strange your absolute admiration for this gun.

                    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                    In my opinion, the idea with a reduced flange is still a somewhat obsessive idea, although, as I already wrote, it doesn’t matter to me deeply.

                    No, this is not an obsession. I have already explained it many times. The same oaks in the tsarist army, and later in the USSR, remained on the cartridge with a protruding rim, because the flangeless "microextractor flew into the barrel" and "strength". Justification for your own laziness and stupidity can always be found. I'm not pestering you in the topics where you write. And you constantly prove under my comments that the Glock is the best, and everything else is an "obsession", and only you know where to dig - everyone should buy Glocks lol Now cartridges with a reduced flange have gone, they are experimenting with iron-polymer sleeves and promising "just about" decent ready-made samples. Caseless cartridges are still far from traditional. Reduced flange cartridges are a natural evolution of the small arms cartridge case. If you want to stay in the last century - write about "micro-extractors flying out through the barrel" and "resisting material", and if you want to make a weapon better than before, then reduce the sleeve flange. And not only should we work with the flange, but it's time to work with it, because this topic is not being worked out in Russia.
                  2. Major_Vortex
                    Major_Vortex April 3 2019 12: 00
                    0
                    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                    Some people like rubber dolls, and others like smaller flanges.

                    If your brains have not quite moved out on rubber dolls and glocks, then I will try to explain to you more popularly:

                    In the USA, rifles based on the AR-15 platform are very popular among weapon owners:

                    They are lightweight, accurate, self-loading, the design has been worked out for years, and is mass-produced. But the .223 Rem cartridge, under which this rifle is designed, does not suit everyone, or not always.
                    Many weapon users want a similar weapon, but a cartridge is more powerful, for example .308 Win, which is common among hunters and shooters, or even more powerful cartridges.
                    Under .308 Win there is an AR-10 platform:

                    But the AR-10 is heavier, more bulky, expensive and less popular with shooters due to these reasons. But many people want .308 Win and more powerful cartridges in the AR-15 rifle, which is lighter, cheaper, more convenient to operate, and the design of which has been worked out for years. And the solution for such shooters was found:

                    This is an AR-15 rifle under the .308 Win cartridge.
                    What are the weaknesses of the AR-15 rifle for a larger cartridge can be understood by looking inside:
                    This is the shutter of the AR-15 rifle chambered for .223 Rem, and everything is fine here:

                    But under a more powerful cartridge, which has a larger diameter flange, like the .308 Win cartridge and more powerful ones, we already get such a shutter:

                    And it threatens us just with a compromise. Why - I will write below ... (the site cuts the number of photos in one post)
                    1. Major_Vortex
                      Major_Vortex April 3 2019 12: 24
                      0
                      ... Sopromat tells us that if you get involved in increasing the caliber and powerful ammunition without changing the design of the bolt to a larger one (which is heavier for obvious reasons, which entails an even greater increase in the mass of not only the bolt, but also the entire weapon), then will end up like this:

                      And what remains for us to do, and what have the weapons designers come to, so that the bolts do not break?
                      And they came to this (already more than 100 years ago):

                      And today, this decision has proved to be very popular when they reduce the mass and dimensions of weapons, and the power of the weapon and the firing range, the persistence of the trajectory of the bullet, on the contrary, tend to increase. And such cartridges are beginning to be used everywhere: in pistols, submachine guns, automatic and non-automatic rifles. Everywhere where the power of a weapon is needed, without increasing the size and mass of the weapon. I propose to open you reference books on standardized cartridges issued after about 2000, where cartridges with a reduced flange of different calibers are already in the sea.
                      Here is such a small and expensive "spool" - Rebated Rim:

                      And with the shutter now everything will be in order:

                      But you also need to sit down and think that a powerful cartridge for light weapons is just as well a lightweight weapon for a standard caliber. And sopromat, on the contrary, "For" with both hands for such a decision, and "a micro-extractor flying into the barrel" is just a figment of your imagination.
        2. Shopping Mall
          April 2 2019 21: 21
          0
          Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          but systems with a turning barrel are sensitive to pollution in this particular node.

          If developed sensitive to pollution. GSH-18 with a rotary barrel passed all the hard tests for military pistols, but the Glock did not pass. The developers of the GSH-18 pistol were interviewed that this is the lightest design of the pistol, which passed all troop tests, is lighter than the Glock's design, which also did not pass the tests and did not suit the military.


          It is a pity that they do not post the test video ...
          1. Major_Vortex
            Major_Vortex April 2 2019 21: 30
            0
            Quote: AVM
            It is a pity that they do not post the test video ...

            The developers themselves Gryazev and Shipunov were interviewed. On YouTube should be somewhere. Video tests do not lay out and never laid out. Spread only tests made by individuals or for television.
            1. Shopping Mall
              April 2 2019 21: 36
              +3
              Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
              Quote: AVM
              It is a pity that they do not post the test video ...

              The developers themselves Gryazev and Shipunov were interviewed. On YouTube should be somewhere. Video tests do not lay out and never laid out. Spread only tests made by individuals or for television.


              An interview is certainly good, but in the video of testing the pistol, there can be no secrets by default. But advertising and PR are excellent. If the gun is really good, then why hide it? Western producers do not need to upload such videos. they do not insist on the fact that the pistol works in full mud. And in our country this is the main "trick" with which they try to justify any shortcomings. A small resource - this is how it works in mud, uncomfortable - it works in mud, magazines from one gun to another do not fit - it works in mud. You need to somehow confirm your arguments.
              1. Major_Vortex
                Major_Vortex April 2 2019 21: 44
                -2
                Quote: AVM
                but there are no default secrets in the gun test video.

                Such tests are never laid out in the public domain, by any state. This is a weapon that is being adopted and there are tons of other secrets and promising developments. Show me the tests of the same M-16 in the USA of the furry 60s of the last century, as a result of which it was adopted? If there are no secrets. The military is not testing weapons to advertise, but for themselves.

                Stores do not fit from another gun - this is not to the designer, but to the manufacturer. Acceptance should be normal. Or simplify weapons laws in the country, so that citizens vote for a good weapon with a wallet. And everything will fit. They will stop doing bad things, because there will be no demand for bad weapons.
              2. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 22: 16
                +1
                Plusan!

                If, by the same logic, an absolutely reliable computer processor is used, which a pistol is trying to do in Russia, then this computer will be the size of a brick and will not be able to perform the functions of a computer processor. Here, ferment cabbage - you can use it as a load.

                A game of compromise.

                Some shots on TV were "how weapons are tested in Russia," but they had nothing to do with real tests of real samples. Secret, apparently.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 59
      0
      Lower the trunk


      To position the barrel lower you need to make a gun with another trigger - shock instead of a trigger. The trigger mechanism for itself needs a place and the barrel below the hammer mechanism will either be difficult to make, or it will not be reliable (the geometric size of the parts and their mechanical strength) or even impossible.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 10
    0
    There is a two-sided manual fuse.


    Judging by the available images, this fuse on the PL-14/15 is so small and flat that it is hardly convenient to work with it with gloves.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 16
    0
    It would be extremely useful if, before being put into service, the PL-15 pistol would have been released in the sports version, and for several years “walked” around the market,


    It is unlikely that any of the athletes will spend their money on it. So nothing will come of it.

    Now, if you recruit ready-made athletes to the PL-15 (SP-1) team, equip them with these pistols, pay the ammo cost and participation fee in exchange for using only these pistols and wearing advertising clothes with the PL-15 brand (SP- 1) - then yes.

    So they worked with GS-18 Sport. The team fired IPSC matches from this pistol ... but disappeared somewhere.
    1. Shopping Mall
      April 2 2019 21: 25
      0
      Quote: Horse, people and soul
      It would be extremely useful if, before being put into service, the PL-15 pistol would have been released in the sports version, and for several years “walked” around the market,


      It is unlikely that any of the athletes will spend their money on it. So nothing will come of it.
      ...


      I think it will, everything will depend on the price. If Grach costs 20000-25000 p., And CZ immediately 100000, then the PL-15 at the price of 40000-50000 rubles will be in demand. Tyra will take exactly.

      And then how will show. If the quality is good (and they claim new equipment for it), and a really cool gun, then the price can grow, and they will take it.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 21: 38
        +3
        I am not guided by Russian prices. Glox 17 is worth mere mortal 600 euros - and this is the cheapest brand. FZ Shadow with orange handle (manual adjustment at the factory for sports, sports equipment and additional details of spare parts) 1300-1500 euro. Cig PNNUMX is completely rustproof starting from Euro 226-1000. The price of 1300-2000 euro for Sig prepared for sport is a common thing. The price of 3000 for sports from 1911 euro. Cheap from 1500 euro Chinese Norinko - not for sports.
        1. Shopping Mall
          April 2 2019 21: 44
          +1
          Quote: Horse, people and soul
          I am not guided by Russian prices. Glox 17 is worth mere mortal 600 euros - and this is the cheapest brand. FZ Shadow with orange handle (manual adjustment at the factory for sports, sports equipment and additional details of spare parts) 1300-1500 euro. Cig PNNUMX is completely rustproof starting from Euro 226-1000. The price of 1300-2000 euro for Sig prepared for sport is a common thing. The price of 3000 for sports from 1911 euro. Cheap from 1500 euro Chinese Norinko - not for sports.


          Multiply the Euro by 75 rubles, and divide the Russian prices accordingly by the same amount, and it will be approximately clear. Those. Rook 270-330 Euro, PL-15, if we assume that it will cost 40000-50000, it will be in Euro 530-660. Imported products are more expensive for us "Restaurant margin-s" hi
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 22: 25
            +1
            If the PL-15 will be much cheaper than Glock, then they will take shooting ranges. If the PL-15 dies in one year, they will take Glock, because it has a proven resource of 350000 (three hundred and fifty-odd thousand) shots. To buy, even more expensive, Glock tira will be cheaper in the future than to buy every time the PL-15, to replace the killed in the dash.

            Something like that.

            If you look at the "total cost of ownership" parameter, then, in the aggregate, Glock is the cheapest pistol based on the proven resource, availability and price of native and aftermarket parts and shops.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 21
    +1
    To drive into the head the rules of safe handling of weapons adopted at practical shooting competitions.


    But the comments. Just immediately 100500.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 24
    +2
    It is better to be able to shoot from the PM than not to be able to from the Glock.


    It is better not to spare money for ammunition and teach to shoot at least according to the IPSC method than all the same three rounds a year from the pose "Pushkin misses Dantes in a duel".

    If you shoot three rounds per year, then don't care what a pistol is - PM, Glock or Nagant's revolver.
    1. Maki Avellevich
      Maki Avellevich April 2 2019 20: 54
      +1
      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
      If you shoot three rounds per year, then don't care what a pistol is - PM, Glock or Nagant's revolver.

      Well, three a year is not enough, of course, but the preparation of the shooter is based on:
      the right candidate
      properly set breath
      mental preparation
      and then polished by the shooting itself
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 21: 03
        +5
        Practical shooting is shooting with a powerful cartridge with sufficient accuracy for the minimum time in motion and from uncomfortable and unstable positions.

        Shooting in focus and with the right breath without time limit is a waste of ammo, time and will not give any skills that can really be used in real life at a pistol distance. So they shot during the time of the tsarist Empire, before the war, from revolvers (Voroshilov) and this was out of date for at least 70 years.
        1. VeteranVSSSR
          VeteranVSSSR April 2 2019 21: 25
          0
          Don't tell me what the pistol-shooting exercise was called:
          25 meters, 5 growth targets, 8 rounds (PM), for all 3 seconds ...
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 22: 30
            +1
            Targets in response did not fire these fellow 3 seconds?
    2. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV April 2 2019 20: 59
      0
      In the 90s, once a month we went to the military commissariat’s shooting gallery, and what’s there, once every three months, but before the annual inspection every two weeks, three rounds each .... from axu when I still served twice on the ground, but before business trip two weeks in a row from all that shot)))
    3. bunta
      bunta April 2 2019 21: 17
      +2
      it's better to have three patrons from the Pushkin posture than to teach by the IPSC method
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 21: 41
        +1
        To shoot yourself - yes. Of the three rounds - one can get.

        laughing
        1. bunta
          bunta April 2 2019 22: 29
          +3
          The method of self-shooting does not depend on the preparation method. But Pushkin will have more chances of staying alive than the "master" of IPCS.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 23: 06
            +1
            You, obviously, have a poor idea that there is practical shooting and what a round lead .50 caliber bullet does to the human body.

            hi
            1. Maki Avellevich
              Maki Avellevich April 3 2019 06: 44
              +2
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              You, obviously, have a poor idea that there is practical shooting and what a round lead .50 caliber bullet does to the human body.

              you looked at what a person does a bullet 152 cal.
              shooting from 0.50 can hardly be called practical. at all.
              Practical shooting at me is when you shoot and you shoot back.
              then all theories and fantasies come down to simple practice hi
    4. Shopping Mall
      April 2 2019 21: 28
      +2
      Quote: Horse, people and soul
      It is better to be able to shoot from the PM than not to be able to from the Glock.


      It is better not to spare money for ammunition and teach to shoot at least according to the IPSC method than all the same three rounds a year from the pose "Pushkin misses Dantes in a duel".

      If you shoot three rounds per year, then don't care what a pistol is - PM, Glock or Nagant's revolver.


      The fact of the matter is that there is nothing to sit on the stocks of 9x18 cartridges. This is not a strategic reserve; in war, the role of a pistol is not so great that marinate cartridges in warehouses. But in the peaceful life of the police it is necessary to train hard, and the officers will not interfere, in any case it is the transfer of weapons culture to the masses.

      In the meantime, 9х18 will be spent, you can gradually switch to a new cartridge, buy weapons and ammunition for it.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 22: 43
        +1
        Well, to shoot stocks - you need to shoot, yes. Although in the 90s such a wild amount of weapons and ammunition from the USSR and Russia was imported into the United States that I’m not even sure about the rest.

        For a minimum training of basic skills (just shooting), it may work, but it will not work in terms of tactical use, the habit of bestowal (army 7N31 has twice as much impact with GS-18 and easier with Grach), again you need to train to change the store to the weapon that will actually be used later. Train with PM to change the store, then to shoot with GS-18? Why not with Nagan then?

        It’s best, of course, not to pull the cat by the tail (Cat, I'm sorry, I'm not talking about you), but use new pistols under 9x19. It is still better to leave the PM remaining in the warehouses for the civilian market, which is not there right now, but ... well, no one expected to see Crimea as Russian.

        It’s a long process, but it’s necessary to explain it for a long time, patiently, so that there is an understanding that no one offers the Wild West and the availability of weapons is uncontrollable, like the availability of pies in a kiosk.
    5. Catfish
      Catfish April 2 2019 21: 46
      +1
      Hello my friend! hi
      I agree two hundred percent. So it is: stopped training and "where did everything go"? Only they will not go to our army for such colossal spending, so everything will look like "Pushkin".
      Remember the happy years of his own service, before the fig often shot? During the three years of service, from the liner on the TST, I fired so many shells that there are enough fingers and arms to count them. And for practical 100 mimi and one hand will be enough. I exaggerate, of course, a little, but ... I would like it to be different now, but somehow I hardly believe it. wink
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 28
    +1
    In the case of legalization of rifled short arms for citizens of the Russian Federation, sales will amount to hundreds of thousands - millions.


    At least allow current officers (military and police) to buy for personal use. As in the royal army. The list of recommended pistols and, please, gentlemen officers can buy weapons and ammunition at their own expense. And competition by IPSC rules with solid prizes. Like a tank biathlon.
    1. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV April 2 2019 21: 00
      0
      How much does a good gun and ammunition cost? And what is the salary of officers?
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 21: 20
        +3
        Glock sold to ordinary mortals for 600 euros, cartridges for 15 euro cents for the purchase of 1000 pieces. Ambulances are sold for personal use to military, police and paramedics at a big discount for about 400 euros, while government purchases the army gets about 300 euros - the rest, most of the money is spare parts (barrels, bolts, frames, shutter parts and frames), accessories, holsters, additional stores, warranty service, etc.

        Used Glock 17 in the secondary market costs 400 euros.
    2. Doliva63
      Doliva63 April 2 2019 21: 01
      -2
      Quote: Horse, people and soul
      In the case of legalization of rifled short arms for citizens of the Russian Federation, sales will amount to hundreds of thousands - millions.


      At least allow current officers (military and police) to buy for personal use. As in the royal army. The list of recommended pistols and, please, gentlemen officers can buy weapons and ammunition at their own expense. And competition by IPSC rules with solid prizes. Like a tank biathlon.

      Acting cannot be unequivocal - weapons must be unified in the unit; you, as a child, do not know the basics. Another thing - military pennies, for starters to allow them.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 21: 24
        +2
        In the tsarist army, a revolver was a service weapon, but officers were allowed at their own expense to purchase pistols from the allowed list of weapons. So Russian officers had personal Lugers, C96 Mausers, Browning, Colts 1911, etc. Who wanted - bought. Together with cartridges.

        Read more, walk less. (C) Boutros-Boutros Gali
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 21: 56
            +1
            Dear comrade, Ale, in the tank!

            I wrote about the Russian tsarist army. This time. Various Russian special services are not limited to Russian weapons and buy Gloks and other weapons for use. All that they consider necessary. They have their own budget.
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 April 3 2019 20: 39
              0
              Quote: Horse, people and soul
              Dear comrade, Ale, in the tank!

              I wrote about the Russian tsarist army. This time. Various Russian special services are not limited to Russian weapons and buy Gloks and other weapons for use. All that they consider necessary. They have their own budget.

              What does the army have to do with it?
      2. Tank hard
        Tank hard April 3 2019 22: 22
        0
        Quote: Doliva63
        you as a child, right, you don’t know the basics

        Well, you know everything ... laughing
    3. Shopping Mall
      April 2 2019 21: 31
      0
      Quote: Horse, people and soul
      In the case of legalization of rifled short arms for citizens of the Russian Federation, sales will amount to hundreds of thousands - millions.


      At least allow current officers (military and police) to buy for personal use. As in the royal army. The list of recommended pistols and, please, gentlemen officers can buy weapons and ammunition at their own expense. And competition by IPSC rules with solid prizes. Like a tank biathlon.


      Well, no, I don't agree with that. Here already one deputy suggested calling the police "gentlemen". In Russia, this will only be a factor in the social hierarchy. Immediately, the deputies will be included in the list, judges, officials ... In short, everyone, except for ordinary people.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 22: 00
        +1
        Either everyone or nobody?

        laughing

        Will not work. It’s impossible for everyone. Only those who can. Called licensed sale of weapons.

        hi
        1. Catfish
          Catfish April 2 2019 22: 44
          +1
          Buddy! hi And now it is possible for those who can, and without any licenses! laughing

          I know what it's called, but I won’t write here, the site rules prohibit me, and I already have four warnings. request
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 23: 16
            +1
            I, my friend, did not mean gunmen with guns, but those who do not want to become their defenseless victims.

            The law does not compel armed resistance to the bandits. Nobody can force anyone to "be a hero". This is everyone's personal choice, his civic position. Although, it may be that yesterday he was a hero in words, but today in a real situation he was a coward. But ... everyone has the right to defend themselves. And everyone has the right to refuse self-defense.

            One thing is for sure - the bandits are not humanists, they have no problems with conscience (no conscience) and they don’t need to leave witnesses alive.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish April 2 2019 23: 20
              0
              That’s all right, buddy, but I didn’t mean the bandits, but those to whom the laws are not written, just call them differently. Although from the change of name of the person involved the essence of his personality does not change ...
          2. Tank hard
            Tank hard April 3 2019 22: 25
            0
            Quote: Sea Cat
            and I already have four warnings.

            "Dushara", I have 5 hi laughing
            1. Catfish
              Catfish April 4 2019 15: 27
              +1
              What does Dushara mean? hi And the rest - we still have everything ahead. wink
              1. Tank hard
                Tank hard April 4 2019 21: 15
                0
                Quote: Sea Cat
                What does Dushara mean?

                In our unit they called the soldiers of the first half of the year of service, young, i.e. - "spirits" Less warnings means - "younger". wink Not to offend, friendly underwear. wink
                Sincerely. hi
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish April 4 2019 22: 50
                  +1
                  Thank you Daniel. Our young people were called "salaga" in the naval manner, the second year "pheasants", the third "old men". There were no "grandfathers" at all, and before taking the oath - "laces".

                  Sincerely. hi drinks
      2. Catfish
        Catfish April 2 2019 22: 26
        +1
        Andrey, what if the officers can buy personal weapons for themselves at their own expense? We had this in the tsarist army, and now it is in the west. What's wrong if people are willing to spend their own money for the confidence in personal weapons. And what has to do with "ordinary people" and durr and k - the deputy? request
        1. Shopping Mall
          April 3 2019 08: 20
          +1
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Andrey, what if the officers can buy personal weapons for themselves at their own expense? We had this in the tsarist army, and now it is in the west. What's wrong if people are willing to spend their own money for the confidence in personal weapons. And what has to do with "ordinary people" and durr and k - the deputy? request


          If this weapon can be worn only in the service, then this is one thing, and if in personal time, then it is quite another. As I already wrote, we will not be so, that only officers will be allowed. If allowed to them, then the judges, police, deputies, officials, etc. And it does not suit me, tk. All these people are a slice of our society, it is full there and those who can not give a weapon. And I do not want to be in a conflict situation with someone from those who have been allowed combat weapons with trauma in hand.

          If you wear only in the service, well, in principle, it is possible, but here the question of unification is of course, for pistols it is not so critical, but still. If only standardize the 3-4 model under a single cartridge and allow to buy from them.

          On the other hand, the state will be completely spoiled. Can buy? So buy.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 3 2019 12: 22
            +2
            Well, judges with deputies are dragging them both at work, at home. I don’t know about the officials, but here too - depending on which official; he is also an official.
            With regard to unification, I agree that the cartridge should be standard.
            It is better not to deal with traumas at all - a false confidence in one's own safety.

            And the state has nowhere to go on farther, it seems that we again arrived at the wrong place ...
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 19: 35
    +1
    StrelOk processes targets at the IPSC competition in the RCC division (pistol caliber carbine) from a pistol inserted into the converter kit with a forearm and a butt.

  • Astra wild
    Astra wild April 2 2019 20: 09
    +1
    When I read it, I noticed that the manufacturers are trying to "charm" the western market: "Varangian", "Viking" or "Bagheera", and someone will like the name and buy eight, for this and caliber 9x17 "Browning".
    I agree with the author that the pistol should be tested by the athletes.
    I remembered: on TV they said that in 1942 in besieged Leningrad they developed an experimental pistol to replace the TT-"Varyag", but in Moscow it was considered that it was premature
  • Astra wild
    Astra wild April 2 2019 20: 16
    +1
    I am also for the legalization of the SHORT-BARED, but of course not in the caliber: 9x19 or 9x21, but of the type 9x17 "Izh". I was told that these pistols are armed with various private security companies, fish inspectors
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 20: 56
      +2
      What is the point of limiting in caliber?

      This will not give anything within any reasonable limits, as well as the limit on the number of rounds of the store.
      1. Astra wild
        Astra wild April 2 2019 21: 36
        -1
        For self-defense is not necessarily an army caliber. Indeed, even in the United States, although much is possible, an expatriate bullet is for civilians no-no.
        Perhaps then an anomalous caliber, but for now, God forbid, with such restrictions
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 22: 04
          +1
          There is no "army caliber". There are armor-piercing bullets for military use. The same Glock 17 with armor-piercing bullets will be military, with expansive (in countries where the police are allowed to use them) - a policeman, with a half-shell (in countries where expansive bullets are prohibited for civilians), self-defense, with one-piece FMJ - sports.
        2. Note 2
          Note 2 April 9 2019 08: 19
          0
          Could you explain how this is in the States for civilians an expansive bullet either?
    2. Catfish
      Catfish April 2 2019 21: 28
      0
      Ma'am love , 9x17 izh, you say? In order to shoot, this cartridge is quite enough, but in other cases it will be full, as if to put it more gently ... in short, the sirloin. Here, for example, my deputy commander of the battalion, Captain Genrikh Rytov, spoke very well about the Makarov pistol (9x18 mm): "You ask: what the hell does a tanker need a Makarov system pistol? I answer: and in order to shoot himself when the tank is destroyed!" laughing And you talk about 9 to 17 ...
    3. Shopping Mall
      April 2 2019 21: 39
      +3
      Quote: Astra wild
      I am also for the legalization of the SHORT-BARED, but of course not in the caliber: 9x19 or 9x21, but of the type 9x17 "Izh". I was told that these pistols are armed with various private security companies, fish inspectors


      I think that now private security companies do not give them much, and rightly so. No offense to the normal representatives of this profession, worthy of performing their work, more gopoty than in the PSE in my opinion only in microfinance organizations.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 2 2019 22: 19
        +1
        Yes, here it is impossible to disagree with you. If we put aside pensioners and people with physical disabilities, then 90% is a pack of professional loafers, they can wedge a tank tower with their foreheads, and they wipe their pants in markets and shops. Moreover, they consider themselves as if under power, albeit insignificant, but it warms them with their hearts. Lumpen at its best is the standard, so to speak ...
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 23: 21
          -1
          Eh, absolutely no culture-cultures nat ... the theater begins with a hanger.

          The state - with the police.

          Still, today the situation is better than in the 90s then.

          Chop, yes, this topic is separate. State licensing of private security companies should be somehow stricter, smarter, more honest, more responsible.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 2 2019 23: 24
            +1
            Eh, it's not about the police. What is the pop - so is the parish. And the extreme are always "parishioners". request
    4. av58
      av58 April 3 2019 00: 07
      +1
      What is the deep meaning of caliber limitation? Then why 9x17, not 22 LR?
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul April 3 2019 01: 07
        0
        Those who advocate caliber restrictions do not understand the simple thing that the goal of a self-defense pistol is to instantly (preferably) stop the illegal action (possibly of an armed criminal). Any caliber is dangerous to health and can kill. But the goal of self-defense is to instantly (preferably) stop an armed criminal and not allow himself to be killed. For this .22LR and even 9x17 are of little use.

        Self-defense caliber starts from 9x19 and still shoot twice. Minimum to stop.
        1. av58
          av58 April 4 2019 12: 48
          0
          This is obvious, and therefore asked the question smile
  • Doliva63
    Doliva63 April 2 2019 20: 57
    +5
    I do not understand these passions for the "army pistol". I can directly imagine how guys sneak into the night with cool pistols at my strongpoint, and I look at them in the optics of my machine gun and say on the radio - how they will approach 200 meters, put everyone ... And then, where is the thread in the blocked gap , I take out the PM, open a bottle of beer for them and with the words - glory to Makarov, I recall with pleasure the masters of the pistol. laughing
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 23: 34
      -2
      The pistol in the army is a spare weapon when it jammed the main one.
      He wedges not only among Americans and Germans. Wedges and Kalash. Rarely, but it happens.

      On a personal initiative, Americans wore their own 1911 since World War I. In World War I, a story happened, which was widely known in the USA, propagandized and served as a reason for imitation. Personal 1911 saved the life of their hero whose main weapon was a rifle. After that, the Americans took their 1911 to World War II, Korean, and Vietnamese, and in Iraq and Afghanistan, the commanders received the right to arm an additional pistol of subordinates at their discretion. Today, the pistol is a standard reserve weapon for the American paratroopers.

      Nobody forces Americans to carry an additional gun. In urban areas and kishlaks, a battle can at any moment become close and you are a corpse with jammed weapons. Americans more often prefer to carry an additional gun in the hope of shooting in such a situation than to wear a grenade to undermine themselves.

      They want to live, they do not want to return home "in canned food", but solely on foot and preferably healthy.

      That's it.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 April 3 2019 20: 57
        +2
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        The pistol in the army is a spare weapon when it jammed the main one.
        He wedges not only among Americans and Germans. Wedges and Kalash. Rarely, but it happens.

        On a personal initiative, Americans wore their own 1911 since World War I. In World War I, a story happened, which was widely known in the USA, propagandized and served as a reason for imitation. Personal 1911 saved the life of their hero whose main weapon was a rifle. After that, the Americans took their 1911 to World War II, Korean, and Vietnamese, and in Iraq and Afghanistan, the commanders received the right to arm an additional pistol of subordinates at their discretion. Today, the pistol is a standard reserve weapon for the American paratroopers.

        Nobody forces Americans to carry an additional gun. In urban areas and kishlaks, a battle can at any moment become close and you are a corpse with jammed weapons. Americans more often prefer to carry an additional gun in the hope of shooting in such a situation than to wear a grenade to undermine themselves.

        They want to live, they do not want to return home "in canned food", but solely on foot and preferably healthy.

        That's it.

        )
        About when the machine is jammed - it's finally!) I assure you, the gun will not help. Only if you shoot yourself. And here the PM is sufficient. In the SA were (as in the Russian Federation now, probably) 2 pistols "attack" - these are APB and PB. And they also arranged intelligence and special intelligence. And I liked the PB better - the tasks are the same, but the weight and dimensions are less. A pistol with the capabilities of the same BCC, for example, is impossible.
        Once again - we are talking about an army pistol. And you, my friend, shpak, who did not serve in the army. What do you know about the military’s need for pistols? Maybe knives are needed? Or forks / spoons? From them, too, BG hoo how it depends! laughing .
      2. Tank hard
        Tank hard April 3 2019 22: 36
        -2
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        The pistol in the army is a spare weapon when it jammed the main one.
        He wedges not only among Americans and Germans. Wedges and Kalash. Rare but happens

        I once read a story about how on the African continent they met in battle, a specialist from South Africa armed with a pistol and several specialists from Cuba armed with automatic weapons. During the short-lived battle, a representative of South Africa remained alive. Surviving - Prepared ... wink
        1. Note 2
          Note 2 April 9 2019 08: 23
          0
          And my dear friend, I read that in Grenada at the beginning of the 80s of the last century, a unit of Cubans with Kalash greatly bent a team of Seals (fur seals) armed with MP 5.
          1. Tank hard
            Tank hard April 9 2019 09: 29
            0
            Quote: Prim2
            And my dear friend, I read that in Grenada at the beginning of the 80s of the last century, a unit of Cubans with Kalash coolly bent a team of Seals (fur seals) armed with MP 5

            Anything can be. Here I am not for politics, but for preparation. It's already ridiculous to translate from Russian into Russian, "dear friend". wink
  • Glory1974
    Glory1974 April 2 2019 21: 19
    +2
    whether the Kalashnikov concern had to compete in the relatively open market of the sports short-barrels, if gun modernization was carried out, it would be an order of magnitude slower, which once again emphasizes the importance of the civilian arms market in the country.

    That's the problem. There is no competition. even under Stalin, in conditions of tight control and a planned economy, and then there was competition. Now, damn those, and a bow on the side.
    1. Astra wild
      Astra wild April 2 2019 21: 39
      -1
      What did you see competition there? They told us at school and college that this is not possible in Soviet society
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 April 3 2019 08: 18
        +4
        They told us at school and college that this is not possible in Soviet society

        Under the USSR, there was always competition at the level of design bureaus. For example, MIG and SU in aviation, URAL and ZIL in the automotive industry, etc. It would seem that with a planned economy they chose one project and do it, but no. There was always plenty to choose from, and the best was chosen with appropriate stimulation. Now in a seemingly market economy there is no competition, there is lobbying. Therefore, we cannot make normal samples of explosives.
      2. vvnab
        vvnab April 3 2019 12: 19
        +2
        They told us at school and college that this is not possible in Soviet society

        In state planning, there is no competition between manufacturers and suppliers of finished products, but competition between design bureaus and creative teams is very welcome.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 21: 44
      +2
      This is not a bow. This is lobbying for the local interests of Izhmash, TsNIITOCHMASH, etc.

      For the state - it's a shame.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 April 4 2019 19: 08
        -1
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        This is not a bow. This is lobbying for the local interests of Izhmash, TsNIITOCHMASH, etc.

        For the state - it's a shame.

        Ugh, damn it, plus. For lobbying. And how I read it for the power - you can’t take it back anymore. What am I doing. The power is insulting only to those who cannot influence it. They can only rejoice or be upset. And citizens of the Russian Federation have the right and must shape the policy and government of the state so that it is not offensive, but takes pride.
  • Catfish
    Catfish April 2 2019 21: 37
    +2
    During the development, various ways of locking the barrel were considered - a swinging wedge, as in the German Walther P38 pistol, and an earring, as in the TT pistol.


    Dear author hi : it’s somewhat incorrect, Andrei, to write that the locking system was borrowed from the TT. Because the locking system for his TT, Tokarev borrowed from John M. Browning (yes you yourself know), and if we talk about copying, it’s more proper to call the original system, not its clones. And with R.38, everything is for sure - here the Germans were the first, and the Italians had already ripped off them, using92 on their Beretta. hi
    1. Shopping Mall
      April 2 2019 21: 50
      +1
      Quote: Sea Cat
      During the development, various ways of locking the barrel were considered - a swinging wedge, as in the German Walther P38 pistol, and an earring, as in the TT pistol.


      Dear author hi : somewhat incorrect, Andrei, to write that the locking system was borrowed from the TT. Because the locking system for your TT, Tokarev borrowed from John M. Browning (yes, you yourself know) and if you talk about copying, it is more decent to call the original system, and not its clones.


      Agree hi
      1. Catfish
        Catfish April 2 2019 22: 08
        0
        Well, okay! And thanks for the article, I had nothing to do with our new "creations" and it was really interesting to read. hi
  • czes
    czes April 2 2019 21: 59
    +2
    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
    Medium Vietnamese the size of an average dog

    Ugly for a decent person! If that: I'm the size of two dogs ...)) No. .
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 22: 50
      +2
      Well, what now to do? ... apologize to the Vietnamese? Or in front of the dogs?

      The body of a Vietnamese is really smaller than the body of an average Russian and significantly smaller than the body of an average American.

      Body size can be expressed in kg, cm of growth, volume of fluid displaced or compared with the size of known animals - for a better understanding.

      I am also the size of a dog, but very large. Although a horse.

      hi
      1. av58
        av58 April 3 2019 00: 05
        0
        Lag behind in life. He returned from Vietnam: people began to eat better, and sharply added in growth and in build. Now the average Vietnamese in the famous underground corridors of his predecessors will not squeeze purely physically laughing
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul April 3 2019 01: 10
          -1
          Come on?

          American legs even spoiled the Vietnamese!

          laughing
          1. av58
            av58 April 4 2019 12: 51
            0
            I don’t know about the legs, but the Vietnamese just got taller and stronger. By the way, this is not unusual or new: during the Vietnam war, Vietnamese cadets in our air force schools were also first fattened for several months to normal weight, and only then allowed to study and fly, and this is not a bike.
      2. Glory1974
        Glory1974 April 3 2019 08: 24
        0
        body size can be expressed in kg, cm of growth, volume of fluid displaced or compared with the size of known animals - for a better understanding.

        That's for sure. I also remember watching a popular science film in my childhood, so there the length of a boa constrictor was measured in monkeys and parrots. laughing
      3. Doliva63
        Doliva63 April 4 2019 19: 16
        -2
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        Well, what now to do? ... apologize to the Vietnamese? Or in front of the dogs?

        The body of a Vietnamese is really smaller than the body of an average Russian and significantly smaller than the body of an average American.

        Body size can be expressed in kg, cm of growth, volume of fluid displaced or compared with the size of known animals - for a better understanding.

        I am also the size of a dog, but very large. Although a horse.

        hi

        I had a friend, a retired Vietnamese captain. I found that war. I saw how he drove a hefty Yankee in a tavern, as soon as they stopped by. I'm afraid in his eyes you will not pull more than a goat (I'm talking about comparisons). And, perhaps, I will support him.
  • czes
    czes April 2 2019 22: 26
    +2
    Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
    Here is a cartridge with a reduced flange in the context: What is wrong with it?

    IMHO. The reduced flange requires a thicker liner bottom, as shown in the picture. You will not get any relief from the liner. The purpose of reducing the flange is to make the bolt part "multi-caliber".
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 23: 42
      0
      Exactly.

      Thus, enthusiasts use the .50GI cartridge in weapons for .45 ACP and in the Israeli Jericho, which is 941. This Jericho was originally created as a two-caliber 9x19 and .41AE (EMNIP) cartridge, which, by the way, did not work for them. This .41 Action Express, if my memory serves me right, was just with a flange of the size, like in 9x19. It was only necessary to change the barrel (maybe the return spring and the store).
    2. Major_Vortex
      Major_Vortex April 3 2019 20: 45
      -1
      Quote: czes
      IMHO. The reduced flange requires a thicker liner bottom, as shown in the picture. You will not get any relief from the liner. The purpose of reducing the flange is to make the bolt part "multi-caliber".

      In my picture, where the cartridge is in the context, the cartridge of caliber 5,7 mm, like our melkash, but powerful, with a bottle-shaped cartridge case. Therefore, the bottom is. Everything is right there.
      Here is a cartridge for a Makarov pistol without a reduced cutaway flange:

      Thin bottom or thick?

      It is always fat. The liners are tested at elevated pressure before adopting a new caliber. To withstand pressure and not burst. Reducing the flange saves a little on the weight of the sleeve, and on the weight of the cartridge. But it allows you to save much more on the mass of weapons. To improve the balance and accuracy of self-loading weapons with the competent design of weapons under the cartridge with a reduced sleeve flange. People who take weapons once every six months to shoot 3 rounds do not understand this. But the Horse, people and souls (Incitatus) on this trolling normally raise their self-esteem in this way, or he himself does not understand that he is mistaken.
      Savings on the mass of weapons are much higher than on the mass of the sleeve. But with mass production and savings on shells will benefit. The shutter of the weapon turns out to be more compact - this is the weight of the shutter. Under a more compact shutter weight, a more compact receiver is obtained. A compact receiver is a lighter receiver. And the weapon is ultimately noticeably lighter than under a standard cartridge. And do not save on the thickness of the barrel, which will affect the accuracy of the weapon, or weaken the receiver, which will also affect the accuracy and resource of the weapon. Weapon balance can be done more correctly, which will positively affect the quality of fire.

      The use of cartridges with a reduced flange began more than 100 years ago, even in bolted weapons. Then they used it in automatic air cannons. And later they shifted this topic to conventional small arms. Initially, it was thought up to reduce the liner flange in order to accommodate a powerful cartridge for a smaller bolt group. But our "experts" translated, but did not fully translate the essence of the transition to a smaller bolt group of the rifle. A smaller bolt group is also significantly lighter than a larger one, and cheaper to manufacture, because it is less metal-intensive. You need to learn English and shoot from various weapons, to know the material part of the weapon in order to correctly understand that by reducing one small flange of the case, we win much more in the end than this flange weighs. A self-loading weapon for such a cartridge can be designed more advanced, which cannot be squeezed into the frame of dimensions under a conventional cartridge. And cartridges with a protruding rim are generally for fittings and revolvers. It is necessary to reduce the flange.
  • Operator
    Operator April 2 2019 22: 40
    0
    I didn’t understand the author’s logic - such as if a police pistol is in service with the army, then it’s urgent not to replace it, but to train the army team in its use against targets at SIBZ?
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 2 2019 23: 56
      +1
      It would not need a separate gun for the military, naval, police, firefighters and paramedics ambulances.

      There is no need to make different pistols for different consumers. It is enough to make a gun of the same design, but of different sizes.

      Today, in any situation, the gun is used at a distance from point-blank to 25 meters. Talk that you need to shoot at 50, 75 and 1000 meters - from the evil one. When trying to honestly make such a gun - it becomes impossible or inconvenient to use it. He becomes a heavy big and burdensome with his butt-holster.

      laughing

      No. Today, a pistol shoots up to 25 meters and the difference between military, police, self-defense and sports use of the same pistol in the types of bullets used for its cartridges. Armor-piercing, expansive, half-shell and whole-shell FMJ.

      Glock 19X participated in the American tender for a new pistol - it was a special version with a short barrel and a shutter from Glock 19 on a frame with a large handle for 17 rounds from Glock 17 complete with magazines for 17 + 2 rounds and a manual fuse.

      Why am I writing about this? Because the trend is a short compact trunk with an enlarged magazine. It is a spare weapon to shoot beyond 25 meters without any utopia.

      Shl ... American mid-1800s capsule revolvers had a fly two times lower than their modern replicas. Why? Because the revolvers of that period shot at 75 yards, and modern replicas at 25 meters. From the original 160-year-old revolvers, bullets 25 meters fly into milk above the target.

      So ... a gun for shooting up to almost 25 meters.
    2. Shopping Mall
      April 3 2019 08: 33
      0
      Quote: Operator
      I didn’t understand the author’s logic - such as if a police pistol is in service with the army, then it’s urgent not to replace it, but to train the army team in its use against targets at SIBZ?


      The logic is to train at all. There is no large supply of 9x19 cartridges and Glokov / GSH-18 / Rooks now? Have a PM and cartridges for them? With them, and we must train, rather than vylezhivyv them in stock. And so you can wait for the PL-15 super pistol to be fitted into service, we bought ammunition depots for the 2050 year, and we didn’t know how to fire pistols. And here again the gun must be changed, blasters appeared.

      Goals in nib? Yes, but this is not a sentence even for the owner of the PM. If you can shoot, you can shoot both in the head and on the limbs, there is a chance. And if you do not know how, then there really is, just shoot yourself.
      In the end, two in the chest - one in the head has not been canceled.
      1. Major_Vortex
        Major_Vortex April 3 2019 22: 30
        +1
        Quote: AVM
        The logic is to train at all. Now there is no large stock of cartridges 9x19 and Glokov / GSh-18 / Rooks? Are there PMs and ammo for them? It is necessary to train with them, and not to lay them out at the warehouse.

        On PM-ahs in such a situation, one can only teach how to shoot, how children are taught to shoot from the air, which has neither recoil nor dangerous speed of the bullet, the bullet itself is light. Then to give the kid melkash. And later, in the army, Kalash and SVD. You can teach the correct retention of weapons when shooting, the correct balance of the body, proper breathing and aiming. But to shoot from the PM in training, and in the service of Glock is wrong.

        You need to train in shooting on the weapon from which you are shooting. If he learns to shoot from the PM, and then take Glock, the shooter will be unpleasantly surprised that the gun is different and shoots differently. It’s like a sledge train skiing, and then put on a luge competition.
  • czes
    czes April 2 2019 22: 53
    0
    Khe, khe ... Why rotate a heavy trunk, if you can rotate a light larva with a short course of the trunk? Will the erudite public point to such pistols?
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul April 3 2019 00: 14
      +1
      For more than a century in the design of pistols they tried different locking schemes, except for Browningovsky's options. Not everyone has passed the test of time and reliability. Turning the trunk, EMNIP, was for the first time in Steyr. The Slovak remake Grand Power also works on the same principle. The designer of the brand Grand Power directly speaks about the succession from Steyr. During the shooting of antiques, he was struck by the soft work of Steyr's automatics and decided to make his gun on the same principle.

      The fewer small parts when disassembling, the, in principle, should be more reliable with less risk of losing the part in the field and being left without weapons.

      If the copier is dirty, the barrel may not lock up and if the shutter is not completely closed, a shot may not happen, and if it does, it can be dangerous for the shooter himself.
  • Avior
    Avior April 2 2019 23: 19
    +1
    time after time, the discussion of the army pistol slides into a discussion of sports applications.
    and this is natural.
    on army combat use, there’s simply nothing to discuss.
    The time of the pistol as a military army weapon has passed.
    His niches are the police, special forces, including army groups with special and special functions — from scouts to some kind of escort, and the officer’s personal weapons, and of course, self-defense weapons for civilian and official tasks.
    But there’s nothing to do as a mass military army pistol.
    At one time, he had a noticeable advantage in compactness and rate of fire in close combat over a store rifle and during the First World War he was the weapon of assault groups along with a grenade.
    With the advent of the PP, its niche decreased noticeably, and with the massive armament of modern armies with automatic and reasonably compact and powerful weapons, its role as a military weapon came to naught.
    Even as a spare for army use, it does not matter much during the actions of a serviceman as part of a unit, a larger ammunition load for a machine gun or several grenades is much more useful, they will be much more useful, and one machine gun that refuses a company or even a platoon does not solve anything.
    Therefore, the army rearmament is so slow and there is no real need, and the old PM is coping with the role of personal weapons, and especially the PMM.
  • av58
    av58 April 3 2019 00: 01
    0
    "... Better to be able to shoot with a PM than not to be able to use a Glock ..."
    Golden words!
    Unfortunately, there was no decent replacement for the obsolete PM, and no, and is not expected.
    Only its creators are happy to shoot from PYa. "Kalashnikov" decided to monopolize small arms, and crush everything and everyone, while the submarine is not at all clear, representatives of Kalashnikov show it only from their hands, and say that this is the best pistol in the world laughing
    Why did they decide to produce "Boa" in 9x21, no one can clearly explain; is it supposed that in combat units the officers of the Armed Forces will have pistols of 3 different calibers? Even Indians don't do it laughing
    The reason, I think, is different: 1) we NEVER made our original decent pistols (just don’t talk about APS, Margolin pistol and Khaidurov revolver), because 2) in our country there is no right to store and carry short-barreled rifled weapons, and, accordingly, there is no culture of high-quality development and high-quality production of pistols.
    So it will be, as long as there are state monopolies and there is no civilian rifled short-barrel market.
  • Operator
    Operator April 3 2019 01: 01
    0
    Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
    Today, in any situation, the gun is used at a distance from point-blank to 25 meters

    It's not about equal distance, but for different purposes - unprotected for police weapons and protected for military weapons.
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 April 4 2019 19: 29
      0
      Quote: Operator
      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
      Today, in any situation, the gun is used at a distance from point-blank to 25 meters

      It's not about equal distance, but for different purposes - unprotected for police weapons and protected for military weapons.

      What nonsense, sorry? For what protected purposes does an officer in the army use personal weapons? And if we talk about standard weapons, then at a range of up to (!) 25 m. It is not used in armor. And it is a little different from personal, if that.
      1. Operator
        Operator April 4 2019 21: 53
        -1
        At first you take a bullet of 9x19 mm in the army armor (at a distance of 25 meters or less), recover from a traumatic blow in 600 joules, and then you will argue that nonsense and what not.
  • Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya April 3 2019 03: 12
    +3
    I wonder why change the awl to soap? They are cutting the loot on the campaign, they have already spent hundreds of millions of rubles, but are marking time. So who among you who participated in the database really, and not on the couch, used a gun in battle? I am sure that there will not be such, anyway, even officers carry an assault rifle with them, not a gun, in the database zone, since a gun in battle is the most useless weapon after a knife. A pistol is an officer’s status weapon, like a naval officer’s dagger. In peacetime and outside the database area, an officer carries a gun as a compact weapon, since it is not worthwhile for an officer to go unarmed. Since the officer is a regular soldier, he can be entrusted with a pistol, and soldiers are conscripts, so you can’t trust them, if only a few of them get caught, he will stick in his head and start firing. Therefore, the pistol should be lightweight, compact, reliable and simple, and the PM fits these requirements perfectly, not without reason such requirements were demanded by generals and officers after the Second World War on the basis of the experience of the great war. Or do you think that is smarter than the commanders who went through the WWII meat grinder and survived? They knew better what kind of pistol the army needed.
  • tchoni
    tchoni April 3 2019 10: 24
    +2

    The easiest way to explain the problems of an army pistol in Russia is the conflict of mutually exclusive interests of arms enterprises and concerns.

    The easiest way to explain this problem is its absence. For it exists exclusively in the brains of short-barrel fans. The point is that even "normal" small arms (ie machine guns, assault and sniper rifles) are not a determining factor on the battlefield. Even when small groups collide. Even in the event of a clash of a dozen detachments, other fighters are now actively using grenade launchers, grenades, flamethrowers, mtins, artillery and air support is called in. Therefore, the role of the shooter, although important, is often not decisive. What, in this case, to talk about the auxiliary short-barrel. The military hardly needs it. The PM suits the melitia,
    1. Shopping Mall
      April 3 2019 11: 13
      0
      Quote: tchoni
      The easiest way to explain the problems of an army pistol in Russia is the conflict of mutually exclusive interests of arms enterprises and concerns.

      The easiest way to explain this problem is its absence. For it exists exclusively in the brains of the shortbred fans.


      R&D "Rook" also fans of "short-barreled" opened?

      Quote: tchoni
      The point is that even "normal" small arms (ie machine guns, assault and sniper rifles) are not a determining factor on the battlefield. Even when small groups collide. Even in the event of a clash of a dozen detachments, other fighters are now actively using grenade launchers, grenades, flamethrowers, mtins, artillery and air support is called in. Therefore, the role of the shooter, although important, is often not decisive.


      Especially in the city, when cleaning up buildings.

      Quote: tchoni
      What, then, to talk about the auxiliary shortbore. The military is almost not needed. melikiyu same PM arranges,


      On this account there are different opinions:

      In war, the COP is needed not only by the officer. Up to and including the battalion commander, the BASIC weapons are an assault rifle, an under-barrel grenade launcher and hand grenades. And the regiment commander would not hurt to have something like that in his stash. But as a "firefighter" the pistol is necessary for EVERYONE participating in fire contacts at a short (up to 10 meters) distance. The main requirements are reliability, reliability and RELIABILITY. Neither the caliber, nor the volume of the magazine, nor any other factor is decisive. They don't fight with pistols, they defend themselves with pistols. They give a chance to have time to change the magazine in the rifle in order to continue the battle. And the title / position does not matter. The private must have the same rights / chances in battle as the commander, while protecting his / her commander's life.


      “The accuracy of fire when firing from the“ Yarygin ”is much higher than from the PM, it is understandable, because this is a weapon of a new generation. But I personally have questions for reliability, ”argues Sergey Nefedov, a former special forces soldier of the Federal Drug Control Service“ Grom ”, who has now moved to another special unit. - “Yarygin” is constantly wedged, it is necessary to juggle the bolt, and sometimes to perform with it other actions that take time. Damn it to him when it happens in the dash or on the proving ground. But in combat conditions it can turn out quite badly. ”
      According to Nefedov, after some time of operation, the commander of his special forces detachment decided to use it in special operations PM.
      “Roughly speaking, they decided:“ Makarov, ”if anything, at least fired. But "Yarygin" - hell knows. So at the shooting range, we used both types of pistols, and went into battle with the PM, ”said“ Gazeta.Ru ”Sergey.


      “If we are not talking about weapons for special forces, but about the main pistol, then the characteristics of the PM are no longer suitable for today's realities. Military science has gone ahead, new defenses have appeared. This is a very reliable weapon, but in a battle you cannot shoot it farther than on 20 m. For the military, this is no good, ”argues the former sniper of the Airborne Forces, a participant in the war in Chechnya, Sergei Chuvyrin.

      The interviewee said that he and his colleagues, when they were in a combat zone, independently edited the “Makars” to improve its characteristics. “He has a hard descent, respectively, we tried to soften him, undermined the firing pin on this gun. In general, I can say that very few people in the world work with such weapons today: they are outdated, ”said the expert.
      1. tchoni
        tchoni April 3 2019 11: 59
        +2
        Yes, this comment confirms my initial diagnosis as well as possible: you are a fan of the short barrel))) I’ve been familiar with it from shooting at the shooting range and have never used it. Do not be offended, I do not want to offend you with this.
        And my opinion about the short-barrel was based on the experience of personal service, communication with comrades and colleagues, as well as designers - gunsmiths.
        And my personal experience says that for a "peaceful" service, PM is sufficient, if not redundant. For the rules of wearing, use and features of official investigations of shooting and loss of weapons are such that it is easier to take the offender with your hands)
        From comrades who had the pleasure of fighting, I, at one time, a young lieutenant and the same "short-barreled fan" heard the truth that if you were left in a war without a machine gun, cartridges for it and grenades, then a pistol can help you out only in one case - if you decided to shoot himself from it. regardless of its type. And, if you are not a sniper, or a tanker or a pilot, then you do not need him at all. from the extra one and a half kilograms of machine gun cartridges or a couple of vogues more benefit. The designer of the Kovrov plant, with whom I had the opportunity to work already in civilian life, in turn, told me that in our army there are too few people interested in a "combat" pistol and there is too much range of requirements for it. So, various "special forces" who have to fight in first of all, the mass and penetration of the cartridge are put forward, the "special forces" from the cops are not so categorical. Accuracy is important to them, safety, well, they advocate for the 9x19 cartridge. And the guys who need to equip the BM crews - so generally give a machine gun in the dimensions of a pistol. After they find out how much it costs to develop weapons under their TTT p, they come to the conclusion that it is better to either leave the PM or buy a Glock (because the need is rarely more than 1000 pieces)
        1. Catfish
          Catfish April 3 2019 12: 41
          0
          And how do you like that, Eugene: "The dagger is good for the one who has it. And woe to the one who does not have it at the right moment!" (FROM) .
          The same can be said about the gun ... hi
          1. tchoni
            tchoni April 3 2019 13: 25
            +1
            And how do you like the proposal to introduce a dagger and a checker as a weapon of "last chance" as a standard weapon?
            1. Shopping Mall
              April 5 2019 23: 04
              +2
              Quote: tchoni
              And how do you like the proposal to introduce a dagger and a checker as a weapon of "last chance" as a standard weapon?


              A checker is not a checker, but the knife must be at least as a tool, and this is a universal thing ...
              1. tchoni
                tchoni April 7 2019 09: 39
                0
                Quote: AVM
                but the knife should be at least a tool, and this is a universal thing

                That's why each of our motorized riflemen))) and not only, and put a bayonet-knife. Coy, as you know, this is a Swiss and a reaper and a wire cutter)))
                It’s just a matter of not creating entities without necessity. There is a bayonet-knife and MSL why else do you need a checker?
                So with a gun: there is a gun - why else carry something?
                And, since we have already touched on the topic of the last chance weapon, then think, will it look like a "combat pistol" of the Glock type? Yes, most likely not. For it should be light, imperceptible, as they say, always at hand and always ready for use without any fuss with fuses, cocking, sending a cartridge and other persimmon. So it turns out that this is either a 2-4 rounds conductor or a revolver. Moreover, both are under the automatic cartridge. Maybe that's why HP is so popular.
  • Looking for
    Looking for April 3 2019 12: 59
    -1
    "Constructors" have learned something to give ornate names to UNWORKING CRAFTS.
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 3 2019 13: 16
    -2
    The article seems to be about pistols, but in fact it is a great illustration for such a phenomenon as cognitive dissonance.
    An audience with a worldview formed by propaganda in the direction of "in peace to the channels" falls into a state of discomfort, not being able to understand how it is possible, constructing "submissive" weapons, not being able to design and produce such a simple object as a "submissive" pistol.
    In fact, Russia - the USSR - Russia never did such pistols (revolvers), having in service or samples of foreign designers (Smith and Wesson, Nagan). or something that domestic designers (TT, PM, Stechkin) were honored with.
    Therefore, the issue with the army pistol is solved very simply. Or, as in the USSR, what is within the power of a domestic producer is taken into service.
    Or like in a world where the same USA, with a powerful production and design base, is not shy about adopting an imported pistol.
    In both the first and second cases, it is inevitable that the owner of the pistol is trained in the ability to shoot from it. If an individual every day, even from a regular PM, shoots at least 30-50 rounds of ammunition, he is 15 meters from the same as Pushkin Silvio, will freely fall into a fly.
    If you shoot three rounds every six months, then no gun will save.
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 April 4 2019 20: 11
      0
      Quote: Undecim
      The article seems to be about pistols, but in fact it is a great illustration for such a phenomenon as cognitive dissonance.
      An audience with a worldview formed by propaganda in the direction of "in peace to the channels" falls into a state of discomfort, not being able to understand how it is possible, constructing "submissive" weapons, not being able to design and produce such a simple object as a "submissive" pistol.
      In fact, Russia - the USSR - Russia never did such pistols (revolvers), having in service or samples of foreign designers (Smith and Wesson, Nagan). or something that domestic designers (TT, PM, Stechkin) were honored with.
      Therefore, the issue with the army pistol is solved very simply. Or, as in the USSR, what is within the power of a domestic producer is taken into service.
      Or like in a world where the same USA, with a powerful production and design base, is not shy about adopting an imported pistol.
      In both the first and second cases, it is inevitable that the owner of the pistol is trained in the ability to shoot from it. If an individual every day, even from a regular PM, shoots at least 30-50 rounds of ammunition, he is 15 meters from the same as Pushkin Silvio, will freely fall into a fly.
      If you shoot three rounds every six months, then no gun will save.

      At first I wanted to slam the minus, but I read it to the end - plus, definitely! In our country, individuals fired daily (when not in the fields) for an hour from PM and PB. This is not counting fire training. Therefore, I have no complaints about PM. You get where you want. drinks
      1. Shopping Mall
        April 5 2019 23: 03
        0
        Quote: Doliva63
        ... We have individuals shot every day (when not in the fields) for an hour from PM and PB. This is not counting fire training. Therefore, I have no complaints about PM. Get where you want. drinks


        How many rounds? Did you have a free issue of cartridges or was there any restriction? This is not sarcasm.
  • Dzafdet
    Dzafdet April 3 2019 16: 05
    0
    Swift did not pass tests in the conditions of dirt, dust and frost ...
    1. senima56
      senima56 April 3 2019 19: 10
      0
      The tests were not carried out! And "Strizh" (under the new name) feels great on the arms market in Europe and America! Check it out on YouTube.
  • Luty
    Luty April 3 2019 17: 35
    0
    Saving ammunition - this is such a kind of stinginess of bosses, for which subordinates pay with blood.
  • senima56
    senima56 April 3 2019 19: 08
    0
    [i] "In general, recently an interesting practice has developed in Russia. A new pistol appears, the media sing praises to it, with the obligatory indication of how much it surpasses world analogues in general, and Glock pistols in particular. After a while, the hype dies down , there are sluggish reports of testing and imminent adoption, and then information about the next killer of Glock's iPhone quietly disappears. Ultimately, the Armed Forces and the Ministry of Internal Affairs remain with the PM.
  • Kenxnumx
    Kenxnumx April 3 2019 22: 59
    +2
    I didn’t understand why the officer of the aircraft (not special units) needs a gun steeper than PM
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 April 4 2019 20: 26
      +1
      Quote: Ken71
      I didn’t understand why the officer of the aircraft (not special units) needs a gun steeper than PM

      In the "special units" the officers' personal weapons were most often the PM - I mean the army companies of the special forces. In the brigades it was different, the APS also met. But in general and in large quantities - it is PM. Normal and adequate. One problem is when you wear an outfit with him. Well, damn it, even hang in the back, even in the front, it's heavy everywhere. And if it is heavier and larger in size - let them serve in the army with that!
      1. Shopping Mall
        April 5 2019 23: 00
        0
        Quote: Doliva63
        One problem - when you go with him in an outfit. Well, damn, even hang up from behind, even from the front, everywhere is heavy. And if it is heavier and larger in size, let them serve in the army with this!


        A question of habit. I don’t know, the TT is a bit heavier than the PM, but when you drag it for several months, sometimes the feeling is lost !!!, I checked it - on the spot, you get used to it so much that you don’t feel like it.
  • czes
    czes April 3 2019 23: 05
    -2
    Too much attention to the unpromising GS. And why didn’t they remember Efimov’s gun? Of the whole bunch of ugly trash, only the submarine warms the soul with its aesthetics, good luck to Lebedev!
  • Clone
    Clone April 4 2019 00: 41
    0
    According to the shooting range instructor, after 10 shots (with sporting cartridges, not 000N7 armor-piercing), the GS-31 must be sent to the factory for restoration. Glock-18 can easily withstand more than 17 shots (and sometimes 100 shots). (C)
    I don’t understand, the author of the article is talking about the egregious shortcomings of the ARMY pistol or the fabulous advantages of a fashionable pribluda for sports shots? I believe that the functions assigned to army pistols and pistols used for "recreational" shooting differ "somewhat" in terms of their conditions of use. Therefore, with all the advantages of foreign "plastic", we treat it with quite reasonable caution.
    I have confidence that an army (combat) pistol, the same PM, from the moment of its birth at the plant and until it leaves for a place of long-term conservation after being used in the army, will not choose its resource ... For military service consists not only of to "cartridge consumption for these workouts should be at least several hundred per month per person"(c) ... but also from many other things, defined by laws, regulations, instructions and orders ... For specialists, such a shot can be welcomed and encouraged, in the" linear "units it is simply impossible. My opinion.
    What smiled was the phrase that "In case of legalization of rifled short-barreled weapons for citizens of the Russian Federation, sales will amount to hundreds of thousands - millions. As a result, the Armed Forces, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and other law enforcement agencies will be able to get guaranteed high-quality weapons, as well as employees who can use it competently." (with) laughing Officials of the permitting system of the "Cardinal's Guards" will get a headache. And the assertion that "everyone will shoot each other," settled in high-ranking minds, but the stupidest one, will completely obliterate any good intentions of law-abiding citizens.
    _______________________
    In purely familiarization terms, I liked the article. hi
  • Uncle Sasha_027
    Uncle Sasha_027 April 4 2019 13: 05
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    So many experts unsubscribed -)) who do not see the forests behind the trees. And shoot from PM and even more so. Yes, hold it in your hands, jumping above your head. And what is its design bad? with picatinny slats will die first because, according to the law of meanness, it will hook at the right time -)). Not like PM or Stechkina licked to the limit. It’s a pleasure to shoot from Stechkin, the heavy one doesn’t jump in the hands.
    Well, make another more powerful chambered, no city garden, you have to show off. Moving trunk - do only stupid people - you can be offended -)). Why do I need a more powerful cartridge? tales about criminals in body armor -)) A typical scam for idiots, and they will be a friend in the tank, so let's give cops and grenade launchers -))
    The same scam - special forces with pistols -)) And discussions can not be counted, through one special forces -))
    When you walk 30 kg in the mountains for a week, every gram per kilogram seems to carry a pistol, and suddenly it comes in handy -)) This is to "kick".
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 April 5 2019 20: 29
      0
      Quote: Uncle Sasha_027
      So many experts unsubscribed -)) who do not see the forests behind the trees. And shoot from PM and even more so. Yes, hold it in your hands, jumping above your head. And what is its design bad? with picatinny slats will die first because, according to the law of meanness, it will hook at the right time -)). Not like PM or Stechkina licked to the limit. It’s a pleasure to shoot from Stechkin, the heavy one doesn’t jump in the hands.
      Well, make another more powerful chambered, no city garden, you have to show off. Moving trunk - do only stupid people - you can be offended -)). Why do I need a more powerful cartridge? tales about criminals in body armor -)) A typical scam for idiots, and they will be a friend in the tank, so let's give cops and grenade launchers -))
      The same scam - special forces with pistols -)) And discussions can not be counted, through one special forces -))
      When you walk 30 kg in the mountains for a week, every gram per kilogram seems to carry a pistol, and suddenly it comes in handy -)) This is to "kick".

      Well, that is, do you agree on PM / Pb or APS / APB? Only yes or no.
    2. Shopping Mall
      April 5 2019 22: 57
      0
      Quote: Uncle Sasha_027
      ... Moving barrel - only stupid people do - you can be offended -))


      Browning spins in the grave like a hul-hoop ...
  • Viknt
    Viknt April 6 2019 19: 32
    0
    Quote: vvnab
    They told us at school and college that this is not possible in Soviet society

    In state planning, there is no competition between manufacturers and suppliers of finished products,


    According to the official data of the current fighters against monopoly, the degree of monopolization of the "market" in Russia (as far as I remember) is under 80%. In the USSR, it can be assumed that it was less. Economics is still some kind of science with OBJECTIVE laws, so no one can either cancel or prohibit competition. Whatever and whoever tells you. If they drive her through the doors, she climbs into flea markets, black markets, etc. The USSR economy was one of the first in the world. This is not possible without competition with other countries in the world. To catch up and overtake - this was the task set before the country by the "party and government" of the USSR. Competition in the era of monopoly and under the state. property (the country as a single and only corporation) has its own characteristics. Understanding, presenting competition as in a free (completely unorganized) market in the era of transnational corporations in the 21st century is stupidity.
  • Yellow bubble
    Yellow bubble April 10 2019 19: 08
    0
    Yarygin at the shooting range enthralled me as if the rabbit were all hayut, but I like it.
  • grumbler
    grumbler 10 October 2019 12: 32
    0
    I'll make a reservation right away, I'm not a shooter, I'm not a gunsmith engineer. This "imho" is based only on general design principles and "common sense".
    Reading disputes about construction details in the comments to publications: https://topwar.ru/156593-armejskij-pistolet-v-ssha-chast-1.html; https://topwar.ru/156747-armejskij-pistolet-v-ssha-chast-2.html; https://topwar.ru/156113-armejskij-pistolet-v-rossii-chast-1.html; https://topwar.ru/156278-armejskij-pistolet-v-rossii-chast-2.html; https://topwar.ru/163307-armejskij-pistolet-i-ostanavlivajuschee-dejstvie-pistoletnyh-patronov.html), it seemed to me that some of the questions could be removed if we more accurately determined the requirements for this tool in the operator’s subject area .

    Let's consider the Army Pistol (hereinafter AP) deliberately "superficially" from the point of view of high-level requirements.
    AP, like submachine guns (PP), are "individual defense weapons", "auxiliary weapons", "last chance weapons". This weapon can be useful when a standard assault rifle is inconvenient: combat units operating in very cramped conditions (premises, tunnels, caves),
    aviation pilots, sailors. Field medics. As well as auxiliary parts and technicians. It should be borne in mind that, as high-tech systems and robotization are introduced, the number of "non-combat soldiers" who will not personally participate in hostilities will grow in the troops. These are operators and trainers of ethereal systems, service engineers and technicians, etc. But they must also carry weapons:
    - For self-defense (in case of sabotage, sudden breakthroughs of the enemy, riots, looting, etc.);
    - For "feeling like a military man." Carrying a weapon is important to educate the use of force within the necessary limits. What is especially important for remote operators of combat systems who perceive combat operations as a computer game (with all the negative consequences of this: "hunting for people", senseless mass destruction of enemy personnel and civilians; destruction of civilian property; senseless waste of ammunition.)
    It should also be taken into account that among such specialists the number of women will inevitably increase. Therefore, this must be taken into account in the high-level requirements for AP.

    When we understood the place of the AP in the technological chain, it is easier to formulate high-level requirements:
    - AP should provide effective defeat in typical user engagements (typical scenarios, distances and times of use, "environment" - external conditions).
    - AP must consume ammunition standardized for army AP (from the requirement for stopping action of a typical target, with a typical degree of target protection, at a characteristic distance). Perhaps it would be useful to unify "ammunition supply interfaces" (magazine receptacles) for army AP, PP.

    We will reveal in more detail:
    - Who is the "typical AP user"? - apparently this is a soldier for whom shooting a pistol is not an everyday necessity (the skill is fixed once, but it is only raised "optional").
    - Requirements for rate of fire. Apparently the modes will be useful: single and a shot in a series of 2..3 rounds.
    But it is necessary to exclude in hardware the possibility of "landing a clip at a time" (which is typical for inexperienced users of automatic weapons, but they will be the mass users of AP).
    - Reliability - the AP should equally reliably serve an Arctic aviation pilot, a military policeman in the sands of Syria, or a UN peacekeeper in equatorial Africa. The AP should work even if the shooter was crawling in the mud, melted snow or concrete / brick dust / sand got into the AP. Contamination of the AP mechanisms should not significantly affect firing and reloading ("wiped the magazine around the sleeve, put it in the handle"). The mechanisms must be reliable and unpretentious. Therefore, already at the MIL-SPEC level, it is possible to limit the requirements for manufacturing accuracy and require that the mechanisms be self-cleaning (can a powder gas leak be used for this?).
    - Typical ranges of AP application with "effective defeat" are small enough 0..50 m?
    But, then, why present requirements to the accuracy of the AP combat as a "precise weapon" (anti-terrorist, sports)?
    - Comfort in hand, balance, moderate weight, "smoothness" - for ease of wearing, quick removal and ease of use. To improve the tactile response in gloves (and given the growing number of women in the army), it is necessary to: replaceable grip pads with different thicknesses and "tenacity"; step adjustment of trigger pull. And available for DIY installation / customization. AP is an extension of the shooter's hand (like any tool, control or sports equipment). The effectiveness of AP application depends on the entire "biomechanical system" Operator-Tool-External conditions. Therefore, it can be assumed that particular designs (for example, hotly discussed in the comments to https://topwar.ru/156747-armejskij-pistolet-v-ssha-chast-2.html, weapon oscillations due to the location of cartridges in the store) will introduce DISAPPEARING SMALL CONTRIBUTION to the effectiveness of AP use, in comparison with purely HUMAN factors (skill, spontaneity of application and inconvenience of the shooter's posture, fatigue, breathlessness, etc.). The design of the AA will be mainly determined by "spontaneous use" rather than long-term retention as in clay pigeon shooting.
    -Accuracy of AP will mainly be determined by SKILLS AND PSYCHO-PHYSIOLOGICAL STATE OF THE ARROW. Therefore, the AP has unnecessarily integrated utilities (collimator sight, laser pointer, flashlight, etc.) and developed interfaces for their installation (locks, strips), which cannot radically increase the AP efficiency, but will definitely add extra weight to the weapon and deprive it of its "smoothness" ... An exception is the mount for the laser shooting simulator for training.
    For the AP, "smart functions" are completely superfluous - fingerprint lock, voice control, GPS tracker, etc. (absolutely appropriate for police, anti-terrorist, sports, civilian weapons).

    By designing "from the top down", one can avoid unjustified high demands and not lose what is really important. It is important to clearly delineate the contexts of the use of weapons (army, police, anti-terror, sports). Analyze what distinguishes them and what they have in common. And on this basis, create either highly specialized designs. Or more universal (modular) rulers covering several close contexts.