Military Review

A promising army pistol based on the PDW concept

95

Promising Army Pistol Ammunition


Based on the conclusions formulated in the article “Army pistol and the stopping action of pistol cartridges”The ammunition of a promising army pistol must meet the following requirements.




1. The initial energy of the bullet should provide the penetration depth necessary for guaranteed damage to internal organs, taking into account the breakdown of bones, muscles, adipose tissue, etc.

2. The shape, composition and initial energy of the bullet should ensure the penetration of existing and promising NIB at the range of the pistol shot (up to 50 meters).

3. The configuration of the cartridge should be based on minimizing the transverse size of the cartridge (sleeve diameter) to maximize ammunition in the store.

4. The recoil when using such a cartridge should be acceptable for conducting fast firing with high accuracy.

Based on the above requirements, it can be a cartridge with a bullet with a diameter of 5-7 mm, made of a hard alloy, possibly based on tungsten carbide, a sleeve with a length of approximately 30 mm, most likely a bottle shape, with a diameter of 6-8 mm. The initial energy of the bullet should be in the range of 400-600 J.

What are the reasons for these parameters? The diameter of the bullet is selected based on the need to break through the NIB, since the heat-strengthened cores of domestic pistol cartridges of increased armor penetration have about the same diameter. An increase in the length of the sleeve is necessary to accommodate a sufficient powder charge, taking into account a decrease in the diameter of the sleeve. A reduction in the diameter of the sleeve is necessary to increase the ammunition in the gun store. The initial energy of the bullet is selected based on those parameters that are used in existing domestic pistol ammunition with increased armor penetration, while the shape and composition of the bullet, as well as the absence of a deformable shell, should increase the armor-piercing properties of the promising ammunition, with a comparable initial energy.

The most interesting thing is that the ammunition, which largely falls under the above description, has already been created - these are the cartridges used in weapons, created according to the concept of personal defense weapon (PDW). The first "swallows" of the PDW direction can be considered the Belgian cartridge 5,7х28 from Fabrique Nationale (FN) and the German cartridge 4,6х30 from Heckler & Koch (HK).


Cartridge 5,7x28 mm, cartridge 4,6x30 mm, and the characteristics of their armor penetration when firing submachine guns HK MP7 and FN P90


Later, other similar ammunition appeared, made according to the PDW concept, which is currently less common.


Serial cartridges - 5.56 × 45 NATO (1), .30 Carbine (2), 9 × 18 Makarov (3), 7.65x17SR (.32 Auto) (4), 9 × 19 NATO (5), 5.7 × 28 FN ( 6), 4.6 × 30 HK (7), 5.8 × 21 Chinese (8), 9 × 19 Russian AP (9), 9 × 21 Russian AP (10), .40 S&W (11), .45 Auto (12)



Serial and experimental cartridges - 5.56mm NATO (1), .22 APG (2), .221 Fireball (IMP) (3), 5.56mm Colt MARS (4), 6 × 35 KAC PDW (5), .17 Libra , .6 SCAMP (22), .7 Boz (224), .8 JAWS MicroMag (225), .9 JAWS MicroMag (250), .10 VA (224), .11 TCM (22), .12 Tim ), 223 × 13 CBJ (6.5), 25 = 14 × 15 (9)


In the USSR, several decades before the advent of cartridges 5,7x28 mm and 4,6x30 mm, its own PDW cartridge was created - 5,45x18 mm MPC, which even at the moment has good armor-piercing properties. However, the low energy of the 5,45x18 mm MPC cartridge does not allow it to effectively hit even unprotected targets. Nevertheless, theoretically, it can be considered as the basis for the development of a conditional cartridge 5,45x30 mm, intended for use in an army pistol, implemented according to the PDW concept.


Comparative characteristics of cartridges 5,7x28 mm, 4,6x30 mm and 9x19 mm 7X31, 7X29, 5,45X18 mm MPC and the proposed characteristics of the conditional cartridge 5,45x30 mm for an army pistol implemented by PDW *


* It should be noted that the characteristics of the ammunition available on the Internet do not always correlate with each other, for example, based on the mass and speed of bullets of cartridges 7Н31 and 7Н29 their initial energy should be 756 J and 563 J, respectively, which does not coincide with the values ​​indicated in the table.

Of course, the development of a promising cartridge based on the 5,45x18 mm MPC cartridge is advisable only if its expected characteristics can be achieved in the selected configuration, while the cost of its development and production does not exceed the cost of creating a new ammunition.

In addition, taking into account progress in the creation of new materials, a promising cartridge for an army pistol, implemented according to the PDW concept, may be more effective to develop completely from scratch. A promising cartridge can be implemented on the basis of a polymer, composite sleeve, or cermet sleeve. As the material for the bullet, ceramic materials, composite ceramic materials or tungsten-based alloys can be considered.

In the bow of the bullet can be considered the use of a flat polymer tip, to improve the properties of the bullet to create a temporary cavitation cavity. The presence of a flat area in the head of the bullet reduces the requirement for speed necessary for the formation of a temporary cavitation cavity of the bullet. Despite the fact that in the previous material we have come to the conclusion that the presence of a temporary cavitation cavity does not bring a significant effect to the stopping effect, it makes no sense to refuse this effect if it is not difficult to implement. In this case, in the case of overcoming the NIB or a solid barrier, the polymer tip will be destroyed without reducing the characteristics of the bulletproof armor.

Another way to increase the stopping and lethal action can be the use of fragmenting bullets in a promising cartridge.

A promising army pistol based on the PDW concept

Cartridge with fragmented sub-caliber bullet


A promising area is the creation of telescopic ammunition, with a fully or partially recessed bullet, including a sub-caliber.


Cartridges with a polymer sleeve



Telescopic ammunition


Whatever technology is used to create a promising cartridge, its dimensions should not exceed 40 mm in length and 8 mm in diameter. This will ensure the convenience of holding the weapon in your hand and increasing the capacity of the magazine, compared with cartridges of caliber 9 mm or more.

Pistols and submachine guns of small caliber


Since we are considering the possibility of transferring an army pistol to a small caliber, it is worth a little familiarization with samples of small arms of this type.

First of all, this is of course a weapon chambered for 5,7x28 mm and 4,6x30 mm - FN Five-seveN pistol, FN P90 submachine gun and HK MP7 submachine gun.


FN Five-seveN pistol caliber 5,7x28 mm



The scheme of the pistol FN Five-seveN

Weapons of the caliber 5,7x28 mm and 4,6x30 mm are quite widespread in the world. For example, the FN Five-seveN pistol is in service with law enforcement agencies of countries such as Belgium, Canada, Cyprus, France, Georgia, Greece, Guatemala, India, Indonesia, Italy, Libya, Mexico, Nepal, Peru, Poland, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Spain, Suriname, Thailand, United States.

The FN P90 submachine gun is operated in Austria, Argentina, Bangladesh, Belgium, Great Britain, Germany, Greece, India, Ireland, Spain, Italy, Canada, Cyprus, Libya, Malaysia, Mexico, Morocco, the Netherlands, Pakistan, Panama, Peru, Poland , Portugal, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, USA, Thailand, Turkey, Ukraine, Chile, Philippines, France. HK MP7 submachine gun is used in Austria, Vatican, Germany, Great Britain, Ireland, Jordan, Norway, Oman, Republic of Korea, Kazakhstan, USA, Japan.

According to some reports, a small number of submachine guns FN P90 and HK MP7 are also available in Russian special forces.


Cartridges of caliber 5,7x28 mm, issued by various manufacturers (by the way, apparently fragmented). For unpopular weapons, these do not produce


Weapons chambered for 5,7x28 mm, a Fort-28 pistol, were even produced by a Ukrainian company whose products are familiar to many citizens of Russia from traumatic weapons.


Pistol Fort-28 caliber 5,7x28 mm


An interesting example of small arms is the American Kel-Tec PMR-30 .22 WMR pistol. Its distinguishing features are its low weight - 0,385 kg without magazine and 0,555 kg with an equipped magazine, as well as a large ammunition load in 30 .22 WMR cartridges. Users note an extremely low return and ease of shooting from this gun. Despite the fact that the initial energy of the Kel-Tec PMR-30 pistol bullet is only 190 J, there is an opinion that this is due to the slow burning of the powder of the .22 WMR cartridge, optimized for long rifle barrels in which the .22 WMR cartridge shows initial energy of the order of 400 J (in a short pistol barrel the powder charge may not completely burn out).


Kel-Tec PMR-30 .22 WMR pistol


The Kel-Tec CP33 .33 LR caliber pistol has even more impressive ammunition in the 22 cartridge. The cartridges are housed in a four-row magazine, consisting of two compartments.


Kel-Tec CP33 .22 LR pistol



.22 LR and .22 WMR cartridges


An interesting fact was revealed when shooting from another sample of small-caliber small arms - the American-180 .22 LR caliber American submachine gun. This weapon is distinguished by a large-capacity magazine on 180 rounds and a high rate of 1200 - 1500 rounds per minute. Despite the minimal damaging properties of the .22 LR cartridge, the American-180 submachine gun has established itself as a powerful, effective, easily controlled weapon.


Submachine gun American-180 .22 LR caliber


Someone from the police who were armed with American-180 came up with the idea of ​​shooting one disc with a regular multi-layer Kevlar body armor, which the .22 LR cartridge did not break under any circumstances. However, a long line from American-180 gnawed a hole through the bulletproof vest: each bullet pierced one layer of high-strength fabric, and the next one instantly flew to the same place.

Based on this “experiment”, it is easy to guess what will make the line of more powerful cartridges with bulletproof vests, with bullets, with a carbide core. It must be understood that for any body armor a certain number of hits is declared, which it is able to withstand. This property applies only to NIB, but also to armored glass, armor tanks and any other. After each hit, the structure of the body armor material is damaged, and the next ammunition is already easier to overcome.

And finally, one cannot help but recall the unique domestic Ots-23 Dart pistol. The OC-23 Drot pistol was developed at the beginning of the 1990 by the TsKIB COO design team under the guidance of designer I. Ya. Stechkin, known for his charismatic APS pistol (Stechkin automatic pistol). The OTC-23 Dart features are the use of the small-caliber cartridge 5,45x18 mm MPC, as well as the ability to fire with single shots and short bursts of three shots, at a rate of 1700 rounds per minute. Due to the unsatisfactory characteristics of the cartridge 5,45x18 mm MPC, the OTs-23 Drot pistol is not widely used, but the concept itself is of considerable interest.


Pistol OTs-Xnumx "Dart" caliber 23x5,45 mm MPC


The small stopping effect of the 5,45x18 mm MPC cartridge was supposed to be compensated by a fixed burst of three shots. In practice, it turned out that this is not enough. Why? Most likely, the 5,45x18 mm MPC cartridge, in principle, has too little initial energy for confident destruction of the target, i.e. the obstacle that has arisen - bones, clothing elements, reduce the probability of defeat for each bullet so that even their total impact does not provide a sufficient probability of hitting the target. And it is possible that this weapon seemed too unusual to the security forces, in comparison with the pistols of the accepted calibers.

It would be interesting to release an American-5,45 submachine gun under the 18x180 mm MPC cartridge and look at the results of this “crossing”.

Army Pistol Limit Parameters


Based on the foregoing, we will try to form the appearance of a promising army pistol (weapon cartridge complex) of small caliber.

1. To ensure a high probability of hitting a target, including a protected ISS, it is necessary to develop a new cartridge, the proposed characteristics of which are discussed above. By analogy with PDW weapons chambered for 5,7x28 mm and 4,6x30 mm, the intended cartridge should provide the ability to hit a target at ranges up to 200 meters. For a pistol, such a range is excessive, but the very possibility of effective firing at such a distance characterizes the capabilities of weapons under this cartridge at a shorter range.

2. Weapons under a promising cartridge should provide the possibility of firing single shots and firing bursts, with a cut-off for two rounds. Moreover, the priority mode is the firing mode in a short burst of two rounds. The firing mode with a cut-off for two shots is necessary to increase the stopping and damaging effect of the weapon.

The mode of firing a short burst, with a cut-off for two rounds, is used in the machine gun AN-94, which implements a fire monitor with accumulation of recoil. In a pistol, such a scheme is impossible, and not necessary, for the quite high rate of fire of the 1700-2000 rounds per minute.


The scheme of operation of the machine AN-94

The simultaneous use of two rounds on the target not only increases the likelihood of its destruction, but, as we said earlier, additionally increases the probability of breaking through the NIB.


The probability of hitting a target with one or two shots. A correlation can be made between the stopping effect of various ammunition indicated in the results of various theories considered in the previous material, and compare the result for one and two shots of different rounds


According to statistics cited by H&K, the effectiveness of the MP7 submachine gun of 4,6x30 caliber against targets in body armor is two and a half times higher than that of the 5x9 mm MP19K, with half the recoil. This makes it possible to expect that with comparable characteristics of a promising cartridge with cartridges of 5,7x28 mm and 4,6x30 mm, the recoil of a pistol under this cartridge, when firing in short bursts of two shots, will also be comparable to the recoil of a pistol of 9x19 mm caliber. Additionally, it is necessary to take into account that the recoil from two shots is spaced, albeit on a short time interval, which should also positively affect its perception. In the Glock-18 automatic pistol, with a rate of fire of 1800 rounds per minute, the 31-round magazine is automatically emptied in a little less than two seconds, that is, approximately six hundredths of a second pass between shots.

It is possible that the tests will show the need to reduce the rate of fire, by analogy with how it is implemented in APS or OTs-33 Pernach pistols. Ultimately, the optimal rate of fire in terms of recoil and accuracy of hits must be determined empirically.

The shooter selects the firing mode with one or two rounds depending on the range to the target. By default, after removal from the fuse, the firing mode with two cartridges should be selected. If the target is at a distance, for example, farther than 15-25 meters, the requirements for stopping action are reduced, and you can conduct targeted fire with single shots, with less ammunition consumption. Moreover, the recoil in this mode will decrease even more, therefore, accuracy will increase.

In a promising army pistol, a fully automatic fire mode should also be implemented. But switching to this mode should be provided with increased (substantial) effort. We will talk about why this is necessary later.

3. In a promising army pistol, it is necessary to implement ammunition at the level of 26-30 cartridges. Experience creating pistols FN Five-seveN (20 cartridges 5,7h28 mm), "Fort-28» (20 cartridges 5,7h28 mm), Kel-Tec CP33 (30 cartridges .22 LR), BMP-23 «dart» (24 cartridge 5,45h18 mm MOC ) shows that this is quite achievable. For installation in prospective gun stores, coil springs of rectangular wire or wave springs can be considered. Wave springs with the same strength and working stroke can be up to 50% more compact and lighter than coil springs, since the mechanical properties of the tape are much higher than round wires.


Wave springs


As another solution, you can consider the shops of the rotor-conveyor type, which are currently used in pneumatic weapons. A somewhat similar scheme is implemented in rotary firearms stores. In a rotary-conveyor-type store, the supply of cartridges should be carried out not by a spring-loaded feeder, but by the displacement of the cartridges by the feeder rotator, that is, something like a closed, closed machine-gun belt will be obtained. The advantage of this solution is that the tape is not under load, therefore, there is no problem of reducing the characteristics of the spring when the cartridges are in the magazine for a long time, and the magazine equipment is also greatly simplified.


BX-1 Rotary Store for Ruger 10 / 22



Stores for airguns


So, let us formulate again the key differences between a promising pistol of limiting parameters (weapon-cartridge complex):

1. As ammunition, a small-caliber cartridge with a bullet of the caliber 5-7 mm (maximum dimensions of the cartridge 8x40 mm), with a carbide bullet and an initial energy of 400-600 J should be used.

2. The main mode of operation should be firing in short bursts of two rounds, with a rate of 1700-2000 rounds per minute.

3. The magazine capacity should be 26-30 cartridges.


Stages of creating a promising weapon-cartridge complex


The creation of new weapons, especially with a high coefficient of technical novelty, requires the attraction of significant human and financial resources. To reduce the cost of creating a promising army pistol of maximum parameters (weapon-cartridge complex), it is advisable to break down its development into stages:

1. Development and creation of an 5,45x30 mm cartridge based on the 5,45x18 mm MPC cartridge (or a new cartridge, but made on the basis of proven technologies) and a pistol based on the OC-23 “Dart” (or a new gun, but made on the basis of tried-and-tested design solutions). Validation concept. Small batch production. verification of military and special use. Studying commercial potential.

2. In case of successful implementation of p.1 - the development and creation of a promising cartridge based on the latest technological and material science achievements, using promising design solutions, and the creation of appropriate weapons for this cartridge. Small batch production. If successful, verification of military and special use, adoption by special units, limited purchases. Limited commercialization.

3. In the case of successful implementation of p.2 - the search for ways to optimize technological processes and the materials used, without significantly reducing the performance characteristics (TTX). Large-scale production. Adoption by law enforcement agencies. Commercial implementation.

4. In the case of successful implementation of paragraph 1 and confirmation of the effectiveness of a promising pistol within the existing technological and design solutions, but unsuccessful implementation of paragraph 2, large-scale production, adoption by the armed forces, and commercialization of the product created under paragraph 1 are carried out.

What are the benefits of creating a gun with extreme parameters?


First of all, this is an increase in the stopping effect and the probability of hitting the target due to the summation of the effect of two bullets hit. It’s just more difficult to achieve such an effect with two consecutive shots due to the displacement of the weapon and a lower rate of shooting “manually”. On the other hand, quick firing of “deuces” from a pistol of limiting parameters will significantly increase the likelihood of guaranteed target destruction, compared to pistols of a classic design.

The combination of new bullet materials and the hit of two bullets at almost one point can ensure the defeat of targets protected by NIB, designed even for protection against weapons of the "automatic" type under an intermediate cartridge, due to the consistent impact on the elements of the NIB. It should be borne in mind that the pistol is a melee weapon, and at short range the bullets will be flying apart, and it will be much more difficult to ensure that two machine gun ammunition hits almost one point, even using the recoil accumulation scheme.

In the end, it cannot be denied that I studied the feasibility of firing pistols with bursts and short bursts, and the pistols of this design were promoted by the famous designer I. Ya. Stechkin. Perhaps only time did not allow him to create a weapon similar to that considered in this article.

In the next article we’ll talk about what other technical solutions can increase the effectiveness of a promising pistol, why it needs automatic firing and consider potential niches and scenarios for using such weapons.

Note. The gun on the headband is NOT an example of how a promising army gun should look like.
Author:
Photos used:
thefirearmblog.com, forum.cartridgecollectors.org, oruzheika.blogspot.com, topwar.ru, vanguardoutfittersllc.com, keltecweapons.com, warhead.su
Articles from this series:
Army pistol in Russia. Part of 1
Army pistol in Russia. Part of 2
Army gun in the USA. Part of 1
Army gun in the USA. Part of 2l
About ammunition, army pistols and submachine guns in the RF Armed Forces
Army pistol and stopping action of pistol cartridges
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  1. Lexus
    Lexus 17 October 2019 18: 10
    +8
    Thank! Great article! And photo materials good
  2. Corn
    Corn 17 October 2019 18: 39
    -2
    Such analytics would be relevant in the civilian sector, but army SIBZ from 4 class and higher, and are designed to protect against full-fledged intermediate cartridges, trying to pick them from a pistol is clearly not the path to success.
    I think it would be nice to adopt the experience of using a Desert Eagle pistol under the .50 AE cartridge.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 17 October 2019 19: 28
      +2
      This is certainly true.
      But on the other hand, when shooting in bursts from a pistol, options will appear - getting into the edge of the armor plate or in between.
      Desert Eagle, for all its cult, is a dead end in my opinion. Or is there a chip in the hope of contusion injury without breaking through?
      1. Shopping Mall
        17 October 2019 19: 54
        +2
        Quote: Engineer
        This is certainly true.
        But on the other hand, when shooting in bursts from a pistol, options will appear - getting into the edge of the armor plate or in between.
        Desert Eagle, for all its cult, is a dead end in my opinion. Or is there a chip in the hope of contusion injury without breaking through?


        Desert Eagle is likely to break the arrow of the shooter, if at all, due to his insecurity. This is then more reliable revolvers under 44 magnum, but they weigh ...

        And the injury is countered by the shock-absorbing inserts under the NIB (Climatic depreciation support).
        1. Corn
          Corn 17 October 2019 22: 49
          +3
          Desert Eagle is likely to break the arrow hand
          Can dry, but not break. In addition, at the current technological level, you can figure out how to stretch the recoil momentum, and thereby noticeably mitigate it.
          due to its insecurity.
          yes, and M16 does not shoot, and stupid Americans at the first opportunity always rearm with the Orthodox “Kalash”. However, this does not apply to the topic, but I do not propose to copy D Eagle, but only to take over the mushrooms of its application.
          then more reliable revolvers under 44 magnum
          A sapper blade is even more reliable, but this is not accurate.
          Climatic depreciation support
          Of course, the thing is very useful, but you are clearly overestimating it. In fact, the same down jacket that was tucked in the old days.
      2. Corn
        Corn 17 October 2019 22: 32
        +1
        when shooting in bursts from a pistol, options will appear - getting into the edge of the armor plate or in between.
        and this will not be enough to quickly disable the target.
        Desert Eagle, for all its cult, is a dead end in my opinion.
        it was D Eagle that was simply structurally obsolete, all-metal, it was heavy, bulky, expensive, not heapy enough ... At the same time, the very direction of pistols under a heavy bullet is quite thriving, almost in all special forces pistols are caliber from 10-12.
        Or is there a chip in the hope of contusion injury without breaking through?
        Of course, this is the trick. When hit in a finite, a heavy bullet will simply unfasten it, break a bone, interrupt a tendon with a nerve, so much so that even the most stubborn barmaley in a moment will cease to pose a threat. When hit in the chest plate, a dynamic hit will also almost certainly put the soldier out of action.
        1. Sergey_G_M
          Sergey_G_M 18 October 2019 23: 30
          0
          And who needs this D Eagle?

          For self defense? When meeting a self-defender with the guys in a serious NIB, a pistol will not help any, it’s not your constrast. For other cases, 9x19 is much better.

          How is the army? Any sensible military man will take additional ammunition for the machine gun or a couple of grenades instead of this uncomfortable fool.

          Intelligence services? Well, these can take for a specific task and then vryatli.

          And so, after the first shot, the gun dries his hand, kicks the barrel back into the ceiling and tell me how quickly the second shot can be fired?
          In my opinion, the main niche for D Eagle is one for fun in the dash. And not yet with a zombie apocalypse, you can glamorously glamorize))
          1. Corn
            Corn 19 October 2019 05: 35
            -1
            And who needs this D Eagle?
            D Eagle is just an example, as the most popular, and NATO in hot spots uses almost exclusively 45 caliber pistols.
            When meeting a self-defender with the guys in a serious NIB, a pistol will not help any, it’s not your constrast.
            Do not carry nonsense, the stopping and destructive action of a heavy pistol bullet is noticeably greater than that of intermediate cartridges. If you think that a fighter in the 6 class SIBZ is capable of painlessly “tanking” a gun, then you are deeply mistaken.
            How is the army? Any sensible military man will take additional ammunition for the machine gun or a couple of grenades instead of this uncomfortable fool.

            God, what the fuck is an assault rifle, what grenades ... do you even know how many specialties are in the military craft and how many an atom are supposed to be as personal weapons?
            Intelligence services? Well, these can take for a specific task and then vryatli.
            and they take 45 caliber or 50ay, probably for a reason.
            And so, after the first shot, the gun dries his hand, kicks the barrel back into the ceiling and tell me how quickly the second shot can be fired?
            dries after prolonged shooting, the first store fires back quite comfortably.
            In my opinion, the main niche for D Eagle is one for fun in the dash.
            all the same, it would be better to play counter-strike
            1. Sergey_G_M
              Sergey_G_M 19 October 2019 06: 17
              +1
              Quote: Corn
              Do not carry nonsense, the stopping and destructive action of a heavy pistol bullet is noticeably greater than that of intermediate cartridges. If you think that a fighter in the 6 class SIBZ is capable of painlessly “tanking” a gun, then you are deeply mistaken.

              It was about self-defense. A situation in which a self-defender will meet a lone fighter in the 6 class SIBZ who will also allow himself to shoot from a pistol range is certainly unlikely, but still possible, although such self-defense is more like some kind of perverted method of suicide.
              Quote: Corn
              God, what the fuck is an assault rifle, what grenades ... do you even know how many specialties are in the military craft and how many an atom are supposed to be as personal weapons?

              Tell me where you will be sent by military personnel (who do not have a machine gun) with your offer to carry the hefty foolish 45 or 50 caliber they need?
            2. tesser
              tesser 19 October 2019 11: 17
              0
              Quote: Corn
              and they take 45 caliber or 50ay, probably for a reason.

              50ae by state, no one at all. 45ACP is a traditional American perversion that tolerant Americans tolerate where optional weapons are allowed to choose a fighter. They have been armed with 9mm for 30 years ago.
              Quote: Corn
              relies on an atom as a personal weapon?

              Are you offering them CI instead of M4, which weighs a pound more? If you really want the barrel in a large holster and you are willing to carry 2 kg, then the author of the article is right: MP7 or B&T MP9, if you need a standard caliber.
          2. tesser
            tesser 19 October 2019 11: 25
            0
            Quote: Sergey_G_M
            even with a zombie apocalypse it’s possible to glamorously goof it))

            There is a series of articles on zombie apocalypse at the warhead. Conclusion: CNS damage is required, that is, the head-spine. This is a small but moving target without a helmet. Therefore, you need a large ammunition and controlled return, since it is unlikely to hit the head with a single shot.

            If we leave out the situation with the availability of cartridges, just either the MPD or the Keltech mentioned on .22WMR, if it is reliable enough (I heard different things about this brand).
          3. mmaxx
            mmaxx 23 October 2019 12: 48
            0
            Well .. It’s somehow frivolous to forget about the happiness of the owners of Desert Needle. wink
    2. Daddy pig
      Daddy pig 20 December 2019 07: 14
      0
      can you give examples of the "experience of using the Desert Eagle pistol chambered for .50 AE" anywhere other than hunting and recreational shooting, well, filming a movie else? it would be really interesting to know.
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  4. MORDVIN13rus
    MORDVIN13rus 17 October 2019 18: 51
    +4
    An increase in energy, bullet speed, an increase in magazine capacity, and so on, and the output is AUTOMATIC. Then why bother all this garden.
    1. Shopping Mall
      17 October 2019 19: 23
      +1
      Quote: MORDVIN13rus
      An increase in energy, bullet speed, an increase in magazine capacity, and so on, and the output is AUTOMATIC. Then why bother all this garden.


      Once the main weapon of a soldier was PPSh, which weighs more than the AK-74, and at the same time is inferior to it in everything, and inferior to the MP-7 under the cartridge 4,6x30, which weighs half as much. Machine guns and rifles will also move towards a new cartridge, for example 6,5-6,8 mm, this is inevitable due to the development of NIB.
      1. MORDVIN13rus
        MORDVIN13rus 17 October 2019 19: 52
        +2
        The main weapon of a soldier in the Red Army was the Mosin rifle or the Mosin carbine, well, not like the PPSh. Looking at what distance PPSh is inferior to Kalash. Up to 100 meters of PPSh is even better than Kalash, as the density of fire will be higher. You would also compare the gun and the howitzer. The gun also loses the howitzer. A pistol as a combined arms weapon, utter nonsense. The distance of work is scanty, there is no slaughter in the Siberian Sea, there is no rate of fire either, the fire density is useless. A pistol is primarily a police weapon, well, and special weapons, although it prefers more special weapons.
        1. Shopping Mall
          17 October 2019 19: 59
          +1
          Quote: MORDVIN13rus
          The main weapon of a soldier in the Red Army was the Mosin rifle or the Mosin carbine, well, not like the PPSh. A pistol as a combined arms weapon, utter nonsense. The distance of work is scanty, there is no slaughter in the Siberian Sea, there is no rate of fire either, the fire density is useless. A pistol is primarily a police weapon, well, and special weapons, although it prefers more special weapons.


          By the end of the war, the PCA was armed with about 55% of Red Army soldiers. https://rostec.ru/news/4518085/?sphrase_id=126574
          1. MORDVIN13rus
            MORDVIN13rus 17 October 2019 20: 08
            0
            Does it say that the main weapon of the soldiers was PPSh? The fact that they had 55% percent does not mean that according to the OSH, PPSh is the main weapon.
        2. English tarantas
          English tarantas 17 October 2019 21: 09
          -1
          Today, the infantry database has shifted significantly to urban conditions, and the infantry itself has become more professional, and in small rooms and streets it’s not a hindrance to small weapons that are convenient for you to quickly grab and shoot. Also in a crumbling city, there is a high chance of irretrievably losing the machine, and the pistol lies more reliably in the holster and on the cord. Also, the distance there is reduced, and the reaction time is reduced, therefore, the second weapon, which can give a sufficiently high density of fire (automatic pistol) and when fired at point-blank range, will slightly yield to the machine gun of a soldier.
        3. g1washntwn
          g1washntwn 18 October 2019 07: 19
          +1
          Quote: MORDVIN13rus
          A pistol is primarily a police weapon, well, and special weapons, although it prefers more special weapons.

          Here is the answer. It is important for special forces to ensure a quick and guaranteed fatal outcome of the target, and our police are moving towards the humane incapacitation (and not only of us). Plastic bullets, shockers, etc. One needs to destroy an armed, trained militant, and the police most often do not face such a threat. And why do they need armor-piercing cartridges, a semiautomatic device and PP? If they run into a booming drunk with a smooth-bore to them of what is behind his eyes to reassure him. Conclusion - we consider limited parties for special tasks.
          1. Shopping Mall
            18 October 2019 07: 58
            +1
            Quote: g1washntwn
            Quote: MORDVIN13rus
            A pistol is primarily a police weapon, well, and special weapons, although it prefers more special weapons.

            Here is the answer. It is important for special forces to ensure a quick and guaranteed fatal outcome of the target, and our police are moving towards the humane incapacitation (and not only of us). Plastic bullets, shockers, etc. One needs to destroy an armed, trained militant, and the police most often do not face such a threat. And why do they need armor-piercing cartridges, a semiautomatic device and PP? If they run into a booming drunk with a smooth-bore to them of what is behind his eyes to reassure him. Conclusion - we consider limited parties for special tasks.


            It depends on the region. The Brazilian and US police will not agree with you, just in the article about the stopping action of bullets are examples, including video - https://topwar.ru/163307-armejskij-pistolet-i-ostanavlivajuschee-dejstvie-pistoletnyh-patronov.html
            1. g1washntwn
              g1washntwn 18 October 2019 08: 13
              +1
              I just didn't quite understand your meaning, since without any dispute three (and even armor-piercing) bullets are always better than one approximately equal caliber and property when working on a protected target. About the regions - the truth. But for this there are several options for equipment, depending on the situation. But very difficult cases are all the same the work of special forces. The police simply hide behind cover and work on targets with mass, not quality. Unhappy, give free rein - minigans will take with them on patrol with bazookas, "Rambs" damn it.
  5. Operator
    Operator 17 October 2019 18: 53
    +6
    A pistol is a short-range shooting weapon against an unprotected enemy. Therefore, for him there is no sense in increasing the level of such functions as penetration and firing range. It is required to increase the exclusively stopping effect, and even then due to the controlled deformation of the bullet to increase the diameter of the wound channel and increase the shock effect.

    The calibers 9x19 and 10x20 mm are quite sufficient.
    1. Shopping Mall
      17 October 2019 19: 29
      +1
      Quote: Operator
      A pistol is a short-range shooting weapon against an unprotected enemy. Therefore, for him there is no sense in increasing the level of such functions as penetration and firing range. It is required to increase the exclusively stopping effect, and even then due to the controlled deformation of the bullet to increase the diameter of the wound channel and increase the shock effect.

      The calibers 9x19 and 10x20 mm are quite sufficient.


      The firing range does not make sense to increase, it is rather a consequence of the steady trajectory and increased energy of the bullet.

      The whole trick is that the stopping action is not proven, only death is proved, and it is necessary to increase the likelihood of its instant attack by the enemy, which means a greater number of hits.

      Again, I refer to - https://topwar.ru/163307-armejskij-pistolet-i-ostanavlivajuschee-dejstvie-pistoletnyh-patronov.html

      And by the way, the telescopic cartridge described by you with a cone-shaped bullet may well be an interesting object for use in such a gun.

      The cartridges 9x19 and 10x20 are certainly good, but the presence of Climatic depreciation support significantly eliminates their reserved effect if it does not reduce to zero.
    2. Ryaruav
      Ryaruav 17 October 2019 19: 53
      +4
      firing range, I agree with you, but penetration with the mass use of vests is even in demand
      1. Operator
        Operator 17 October 2019 20: 13
        +5
        For the existing caliber 9x19 mm, there is no problem breaking through bulletproof vests up to and including resistance level II through the use of bullets with a steel tempered core in a polymer pan and gunpowder with increased energy (Para ++ cartridge).

        But due to the short range of the use of pistols, it is more efficient to use heavy subsonic bullets made of lead in a brass shell, so that the first shot in the body / body armor will lead the enemy into a shock state (immobilize) due to inflicting injuries to him and kill him with the second shot.
        1. Ryaruav
          Ryaruav 17 October 2019 20: 16
          +2
          yes, comrade operator, I’m not completely sure about this issue with you, but I agree people watching films don’t know that a bullet’s blow to the bronzer is subject to a sledgehammer’s blow to the body
          1. Droid
            Droid 18 October 2019 07: 38
            0
            Sledgehammer is much cooler. If a pistol / automatic bullet hits the armor plate, nothing will happen.
        2. Droid
          Droid 18 October 2019 07: 36
          +2
          Forget about backward injury. Better read the requirements for body armor.
  6. rudolff
    rudolff 17 October 2019 18: 54
    +4
    But is it even necessary to bother with armor penetration of pistol cartridges? Can focus on stopping action and return to bullets of expansive action? Sooner or later, the Americans will do so; they have not signed the convention.
    1. Shopping Mall
      17 October 2019 19: 17
      0
      Quote: rudolff
      But is it even necessary to bother with armor penetration of pistol cartridges? Can focus on stopping action and return to bullets of expansive action? Sooner or later, the Americans will do so; they have not signed the convention.


      Did not read the previous article - https://topwar.ru/163307-armejskij-pistolet-i-ostanavlivajuschee-dejstvie-pistoletnyh-patronov.html

      Guaranteed stopping action is the corpse of the enemy. Apparently, the hydroshock and the expansive effect do not always give a stable result.

      I concluded that the most reliable is the defeat of a large number of bullets with a sufficient depth of penetration into the body. In this sense, two 5-7 mm bullets will be better than one 11,43 mm bullet, even if it’s expansive, because the chance that they will touch vital organs is higher.

      Penetration is a bonus, because in our cartridges with a heat-strengthened core, the core itself is approximately 6 mm, i.e. a shirt that increases the diameter of the bullet to 9 mm simply disappears in vain, while there are always less cartridges of 9 mm or more than 8 mm or less.
  7. Catfish
    Catfish 17 October 2019 19: 05
    0
    Thanks to the Author - a good article with excellent photo selection.
    But a pistol has always been and remains for a soldier a weapon of "last chance" and no matter what kind of ammunition you invent for it, he can never, even temporarily, replace the infantryman's main weapon. I do not mean special forces, there are completely different tasks and, accordingly, requirements for weapons.
    As for the carbide bullet, which can somehow solve the issue of armor penetration, this was already mentioned by colleague Alexei (iIIi) and I completely agree with him.
  8. Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 17 October 2019 19: 49
    -1
    I think that TT cartridges meet many requirements and modernization will surpass modern parabellum
  9. ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 17 October 2019 19: 55
    +2
    Nonsense, the pistol cartridge must be at least 9 mm. Practice shows that this is optimal.
  10. Glory1974
    Glory1974 17 October 2019 20: 07
    +4
    Thanks to the author for the article. Interesting, informative.
    The only thing I think is that the cartridge for a pistol with a length of 40 mm will be too long, a maximum of 30 mm.
    Penetration should be increased due to new gunpowders. Accuracy by reducing recoil. And do not forget about combat training.
    In the first war in Vladikavaz, several local people tried to beat an FSB officer. Realizing that this will not end only with a fight, he snatched PM and made 5 shots: 1 alone in the air, and 4 in the enemy. As a result, 4 corpse, with all 4 hit just above the bridge of the nose.
    Need a gun! not in an attack on the enemy fortified area, somewhat in other situations, but needed.
    1. Shopping Mall
      18 October 2019 08: 02
      +1
      [quote = glory1974] Thanks to the author for the article. Interesting, informative.
      The only thing I think is that the cartridge for a pistol with a length of 40 mm will be too long, a maximum of 30 mm. [/ Quote]

      40 mm is the length of the entire cartridge with a bullet, not just cartridges (unless of course the bullet is recessed into it). Even with the 7,62X25 TT, the cartridge length is 35 mm. With a small diameter 40 mm is normal. [/ Quote]
  11. Avior
    Avior 17 October 2019 20: 20
    +4
    The selection in the article is interesting, but since the initial data are not defined, the purpose of the pistol in the army is the whole article, shooting for nothing.
    If this is an officer’s personal weapon, there are some requirements for a pistol, and if it’s a weapon of self-defense, it’s completely different, when it comes to arming personnel to perform police functions, this is the third.
    Moreover, the author mixes the notions - in the headline about the army pistol, in the text - both the power structures and special forces.
    Which is far from the same thing.
    1. Shopping Mall
      17 October 2019 20: 37
      +1
      Quote: Avior
      ... the author mixes the notions - in the headline about the army pistol, in the text - both power structures and special forces.
      Which is far from the same thing.


      Depending on the development phase:
      1. Development and creation of an 5,45x30 mm cartridge based on the 5,45x18 mm MPC cartridge (or a new cartridge, but made on the basis of proven technologies) and a pistol based on the OC-23 “Dart” (or a new gun, but made on the basis of tried-and-tested design solutions). Validation concept. Small batch production. verification of military and special use. Studying commercial potential.

      2. In the case of the successful implementation of p.1 - the development and creation of a promising cartridge based on the latest achievements of technologies and materials science, using promising design solutions, and the creation of appropriate weapons for this cartridge. Small batch production. If successful, check military and special applications, adoption by special units, limited purchases. Limited commercialization.

      3. In the case of successful implementation of p.2 - the search for ways to optimize technological processes and the materials used, without significantly reducing the performance characteristics (TTX). Large-scale production. Adoption by law enforcement agencies. Commercial implementation.

      4. In the case of successful implementation of paragraph 1 and confirmation of the effectiveness of a promising pistol within the existing technological and design solutions, but unsuccessful implementation of paragraph 2, large-scale production, adoption by the armed forces, and commercialization of the product created under paragraph 1 are carried out.
      1. Avior
        Avior 17 October 2019 22: 28
        +3
        that is, you intend to check the army pistol at special forces?
        But nothing that they have different requirements with the army? Not to mention the fact that law enforcement agencies are also the police, for example. Will they also be forcibly given an army pistol?
        Validation concept.

        The concept itself begins with the definition of purpose, and you accepted it a priori as an axiom, and then in some implicit form, moreover.
        Other important nuances are not considered at all.
        For example, where did you get the idea that most of those who will have to use it will be able to effectively shoot at 50 m in a combat situation?
        The task for the gun is not easy, it requires notable training, time and resources for which you need to find from those that are released. What preparation for this needs to be reduced and cut back on finances?
        In what quality is the gun supposed to be used?
        If for self-defense, let’s say, then 50 of aiming, but really 25 of effective shooting is not a distance for self-defense.
        Stechkin had 150, 200 was aimed, and that was removed from the army, and partially returned only by force, there was simply nothing else.
        If, as an officer’s personal weapon, then all your delights with a cartridge are useless at all. 9 a pair, or even a PM, is quite enough and does not need to be particularly sophisticated, you need a simple, inexpensive and light gun.
        and so on..... hi
        1. Shopping Mall
          18 October 2019 08: 19
          +1
          Quote: Avior
          that is, you intend to check the army pistol at special forces?
          But nothing that they have different requirements with the army? Not to mention the fact that law enforcement agencies are also the police, for example. Will they also be forcibly given an army pistol?


          How different are they in terms of requirements? Now the special forces are Gyurza, earlier Stechkin, in fact they and the Glocks love and much more, at their discretion. For the Army, this is PYa, but in fact there is not much difference between the 7N29 and 7N31, as well as between these pistols. And if we talk about the modern "officer" version of wearing a PM, then maybe it is not needed at all, will they lose more? I'm talking about professional military personnel.

          And by the way, the same Five-seveN is used by the police and the military and special services, I did not accidentally list the countries where it is used. And I think that only the price of a pistol and cartridges interferes with its distribution, and well, the inertia of thinking. According to English-language reviews, it is very comfortable to wear and to use. Weight with cartridges (20 pcs.) - 0,744 kg, and for PM - 0,81 kg.

          Quote: Avior
          For example, where did you get the idea that most of those who will have to use it will be able to effectively shoot at 50 m in a combat situation?
          The task for the gun is not easy, it requires notable training, time and resources for which you need to find from those that are released. What preparation for this needs to be reduced and cut back on finances?


          50 m is rather the exception, the main distances of the 5-15 m pistol are. Anyway it is necessary to train, it is not as difficult as it seems. For conscripts it may be superfluous, but for a professional 1-2 hours a week and 50-100 training cartridges this is real and normal.

          Quote: Avior
          In what quality is the gun supposed to be used?


          If we talk about the army pistol, then as a reserve, reserve weapon of a serviceman, in case of breakdown / loss of the main weapon, or in unusual situations, for example - in a battle in the city the cartridges in the store ran out, the enemy jumped out - the gun was pulled out faster than reloading the machine gun.

          Quote: Avior
          If for self-defense, let’s say, then 50 of aiming, but really 25 of effective shooting is not a distance for self-defense.


          10-15 double shots, maximum 50 single shots. But given the bullet’s consistency and its comparable parameters to 5,7x28, theoretically 100-200 is possible, but why this is and how in the next article.

          Quote: Avior
          Stechkin had 150, 200 was aimed, and that was removed from the army, and partially returned only by force, there was simply nothing else.


          All talk about 200 meters for Stechkin is nothing more than fiction, these are unrealistic and unnecessary ranges for a pistol.
          1. Avior
            Avior 18 October 2019 09: 19
            +1
            For a pistol in the classic form of 150-200 meters, the range is unattainable. Stechkin for this kobuku-butt was attached to a heavy pistol with a long barrel.
            and for self-defense in combat, necessary.
            From which the conclusion follows, a gun in army conditions cannot be a weapon of self-defense. You need at least PP.
            The gun can perform other functions in army conditions, and depending on what these functions are, there will also be requirements for the gun.
            And it is necessary to consider typical situations, and not individual cases, each of which requires its own weapon.
            If you think that the situation is typical of an army-adversary in five steps, and you have an urgent round of ammunition, then I don’t think so.
          2. Avior
            Avior 18 October 2019 09: 50
            +2
            Some of the possible areas of application of the pistol in the army (the special forces have their own tasks and the weapon he selects for the tasks - it will be PSS or RPG - it depends on the specific task. It converges with the army in the requirements only in certain cases)
            1. Personal weapon of the officer. Go to the patrol and outfit, scare the deserter in front of the system, stop the hooligans, and so on) Light weight, simplicity and cheapness, a large-capacity store is not required.
            2. Police weapons. The army is sometimes involved in the performance of police functions - patrols, peacekeepers, the fight against terrorists and other elements not from the regular army. The machine is redundant in this case, it can affect strangers. In this case, a pistol is required for all personnel with an increased store capacity, but in general it is not required to pierce bulletproof vests from it.
            3. Weapons of self-defense. If this is an army’s weapon of self-defense, it should act effectively at distances comparable to combat distances using automatic weapons, and at the same time be light and compact enough to be always with you and not interfere with the basic functions of a soldier. That is 150-200 meters and compact dimensions and weight up to 2,5. In principle, there may be a large pistol with a butt, but since this should ensure a sufficient density of fire, we are talking about PP with a cartridge that can work against bulletproof vests.
            2. Additional or reserve weapons - that is, weapons that can be used along with the main small arms - machine guns - and at the same time, if possible, do not interfere with the use of the main weapons of the fighter. For example, for a grenade launcher in the absence of targets for a grenade launcher.
            In principle, similar to nXNX.
            Of course, you can come up with other cases and invent a pistol for them, but will they be typical precisely for army use?
            1. Michael HORNET
              Michael HORNET 25 October 2019 12: 50
              0
              the new American SIG-Sauer M17 fits perfectly under the described. also PDW Flux MP17 option for 3 and 4 items
              or NK MP7, in what capacity they are used according to clauses 3 and 4 special forces
      2. tesser
        tesser 18 October 2019 02: 19
        +3
        A number of commentators have already blamed you that the main problem with your work is that with commendable attention to rivets, you ignore the problem with your very idea.

        Short barrel can be.
        1. The second weapon (riflman).
        2. The first or only weapon (snipers, mortar men, tankers, koshevari)
        3. Optional weapons (specials).

        Respectively.

        1. Rifleman. For him, the short barrel is the weapon of last chance. Left with a short-barreled barrel against the enemy with Kalash and in the NIB, he still will not fight for so much. From this point of view, the short barrel is not required at all, and if it is, the main thing is lightness and reliability. Up to the revolver. Trying to catch some difficulties in the holster for a soldier is wrecking. Because it is weight, size, time at the shooting range, time to care for weapons. To expect that someone due to the army short-barrel will be steamed with a new cartridge is at least strange. With more important cartridges - intermediate and machine-gun rifle - a mountain of problems.

        2. MPE. The ideal army MPE has long been known - this is the AKC or M4. Since few people walk now, they mainly ride, there is a discussion on issuing all long-distance rifles with ordinary rifles, because why not. M4 in its weight (2,7 kg empty) and size (760 mm with the butt closed) is quite consistent with M1 carbine (2.4 kg empty, 900 mm). To invent something with a new cartridge is insanity, to give out a gun instead of a carbine to soldiers present on the battlefield (for example, ammunition carriers) is wrecking.

        3. Spetsura and jackets. It was just to them that the mentioned FN P90 crossed. They would have something smaller and smaller, so that the jacket does not stomp. Why not. 5-7 is made so that the fighter is, so to speak, single-cartridge, although in the case of special uniforms and jackets this does not matter.

        So to do something for specials - why not, any whim for your money. Although enemy money is one thing, ours is another. It would be possible to dispose of them and smarter somehow. To offer a complete transition to a small-caliber high-speed cartridge - Manilovism.
        1. Droid
          Droid 18 October 2019 07: 40
          -1
          The ideal army MPE has long been known - is the AKC or M4

          This is MP7. AKS has long been in museums, and M4 is the main weapon.
          1. tesser
            tesser 18 October 2019 09: 26
            0
            Quote: Droid
            AKC has long been in museums

            74U in museums? Wow, I didn’t. And what is now instead, MP7?
            Quote: Droid
            M4 is the main weapon.

            When God distributed racial abilities to the nations, he nerfanled the Americans in terms of small arms. The last time everything (almost) as it should have turned out in the Second World War. In particular, the Americans in the 00's changed the paddle to the M4 and at the same time began to play solo for long, precise shooting. On the other hand, those who want to get an oar, as a rule, have such an opportunity even without writing to maxmans.

            As for MP7, the paragraph cited referred to soldiers, including in an infantry platoon and tankers. To which of them do you want to distribute MP7? To the tankmen? Abrams has enough space for an oar. To the mortars? Did you pick up or leave the carbine? If you leave it, you hang + 2 kg in the holster. If you pick it up, these people from you cannot participate in combined arms combat because of the categorical difference in the aiming range. The Americans got bumps in this regard back in Korea.
            1. Droid
              Droid 18 October 2019 09: 34
              +2
              Quote: tesser
              74U in museums?

              Where do you see AX74? It says AKC.
              And what is now instead, MP7?

              The Germans have MP7, and we are palliative - AKS74 whose production has long been discontinued.
              To which of them do you want to distribute MP7? To the tankmen?

              Namely, as well as, for example, pilots and generally to all who do not fight with the marksman.
              Abrams has enough space for an oar.

              them a paddle? What would they be proud of how they smear out of it?
              To the mortars? Did you pick up or leave the carbine? If you leave it, you hang + 2 kg in the holster. If you pick it up, these people from you cannot participate in combined arms combat because of the categorical difference in the aiming range.

              mortar carabiner? They will leave him anywhere, so as not to interfere, and in an emergency will remain simply without weapons. And in
              combined arms
              mortars are always involved in battle and not with carbines, but with mortars.
              1. tesser
                tesser 18 October 2019 11: 02
                +1
                Quote: Droid
                It says AKC.

                Excuse me, misled you.
                Quote: Droid
                Germans MP7

                In special, if I don’t confuse anything.
                Quote: Droid
                Namely, as well as, for example, pilots and generally to all who do not fight with the marksman.

                Pilots are a separate issue; they need weapons that will remain with them during bailouts. In this case, it makes sense to talk about MPE.
                Quote: Droid
                them a paddle? What would they be proud of how they smear out of it?

                Yeah. From the oars with the butt smear, from MP7 from the hand get.
                Quote: Droid
                mortar carabiner?

                And now they have, excuse me, what?
                Quote: Droid
                mortars are always involved in battle and not with carbines, but with mortars.

                This refers to the phase of the battle, when it is time to drape, if possible, firing back.
                1. Droid
                  Droid 18 October 2019 11: 14
                  +1
                  Quote: tesser
                  And now they have, excuse me, what?

                  Take away. As you wrote.

                  Quote: tesser
                  This refers to the phase of the battle, when it is time to drape, if possible, firing back.


                  The machine will not help. And therefore they do not need him. They are given machines from poverty and greed.

                  Quote: tesser
                  Yeah. From the oars with the butt smear, from MP7 from the hand get.

                  MP7 has a stock. And how to get out of it while standing with your hand, compared to a machine with 5,45x30 mm, see this plate.
                  1. tesser
                    tesser 18 October 2019 11: 34
                    +1
                    Quote: Droid
                    Take away.

                    Oh well.
                    Quote: Droid
                    They are given machines from poverty and greed.

                    They are given an assault rifle so as not to make another weapon-cartridge complex in a platoon. Between MP7 and M4 the difference in weight is less than between Beretta and MP7, EMNIP.
                    Quote: Droid
                    See this plate.

                    Where is it written about 92% of hand hits on 100 meters on a running figure? Shooting at 323 meters from the hand? Should I believe it?
                    1. Droid
                      Droid 18 October 2019 11: 48
                      0
                      Where is it written about 92% of hand hits on 100 meters on a running figure?

                      And on 200 too.

                      Shooting at 323 meters from the hand?

                      Where did you see the shooting at 323 meters? There are shooting at 100 and 200 meters. Do not confuse the range that was shot with the effective range.

                      Should I believe it?

                      These are the results of experienced firing. They do not need to be trusted, they must be guided.
                      1. prodi
                        prodi 18 October 2019 15: 42
                        +1
                        in general, the plate is strange: it’s not clear whether they were fired in single shots or bursts, and the logic from standing still was not very visible
                      2. tesser
                        tesser 19 October 2019 11: 39
                        0
                        Quote: prodi
                        in general, the plate is strange

                        I did not argue with the droid and look for a data source, but at 90% I am sure that they measured the technical accuracy of the cartridge and shot, respectively, in a vice. But from the show off they do not indicate angular minutes, like normal people, but the probability of hitting a growth / thoracic target.
                2. Shopping Mall
                  18 October 2019 14: 01
                  0
                  Quote: Droid
                  MP7 has a stock. And how to get out of it while standing with your hand, compared to a machine with 5,45x30 mm, see this plate.


                  And there is no information on the cartridge 5,45x30 experienced TsNIITM?
                  1. Droid
                    Droid 18 October 2019 14: 47
                    +1
                    Here is a sign.
                    1. Shopping Mall
                      21 October 2019 08: 23
                      0
                      Quote: Droid
                      Here is a sign.


                      An interesting sign. The cartridge 5,45x30 has an initial energy of 763 J. It is only too big, 47 mm in length, for the pistol grip a bit too much. It turns out that the bullet protrudes at 17 mm, did they insert a bullet into it from 5,45x39?

                      And is the second cartridge 5,45x18 TsKIB SOO "over-honeydewed" 5,45x18 MPTs? Muzzle energy 448 J.

                      By and large, I'm interested in the "golden mean" between these cartridges.
      3. garri-lin
        garri-lin 18 October 2019 14: 23
        0
        So you said a gun instead of a carbine. And if a carbine but under a pistol cartridge. Ergonomics +. Ammunition +. Size can be compactly made +. And a lot of pluses.
        1. tesser
          tesser 18 October 2019 14: 32
          +1
          Quote: garri-lin
          And if a carbine but under a pistol cartridge

          Passed by. There are such things, there are also body kits for a regular pistol with a butt and an elongated barrel. It makes no sense, it turns out the same M4 plus or minus in weight and size, but sharply lower in capabilities.
          The whole story with pistol and carbine cartridges played during WWII, when the main cartridge was a machine-gun rifle. There, yes, compared to a rifle, the size and weight of the weapon was reduced by half. On a low-pulse cartridge, such a benefit will no longer be.
      4. Michael HORNET
        Michael HORNET 20 October 2019 20: 51
        0
        Tesser, Respect, finally at least someone said something in essence.
        There should be only one cartridge - 9x19, all other cartridges have proved that they are inferior to the time-tested and very popular 9x19. In the modern version, there are about 600 j and armor penetration there, the maximum for hand weapons is squeezed there (7Н21, 7Н31)
        Although, in principle, the domestic 9x21 cartridge is better in terms of parameters, and theoretically preferable as a pistol / PDV / PP, the cartridge is NOT standard. Is it worth it now to accept another non-standard cartridge - I think not, but the adoption of BOA under 9x21 says that they think that way. If he lived up to his expectations, but he’s done it’s not for army needs
        But the fact that GS-18 could not be brought to mind (for more than 20 years) and was abandoned - it convexly shows the level of engineering at our place, where only effective managers and marketing specialists remained at the plants.
        The best option is to make MPE on a modular principle, like FLUX MP17
        https://youtu.be/DZtOYQO8Zhk
        You can collect from the same boa
        The question is again - for whom
        An army pistol must be either compact enough to carry it as a second weapon, or in a PDV configuration if it is the only one. But always if the only thing is better to take a regular machine gun. No need - folded the butt and put it on a belt behind his back. Replace a gun with a gun - idiocy and direct sabotage
        The only exceptions are aircraft pilots, but they need a silent weapon in order to at least slightly increase their chances of survival in the vicinity of the enemy
        1. tesser
          tesser 20 October 2019 22: 12
          0
          Honestly, without any understanding what can be done with the arrow in the Russian Federation so that it makes some sense. By short-cut in the West, yes, 9x19 without options, in the Russian Federation I do not know. Most likely you are right to switch to 9x19 for everyone, so that at least someone once could shoot from normal trunks for the soul. But you don’t have to go over, the sense for the army is zero. Given the experience, forget about the new weapon-cartridge system forever.

          Stop all the bodywork with new AKs on 5.45, leave the AKS-74 as MPV. Shooters to work on the street to translate into the realities of the Red Army 41, automatic rifle and rifle machine gun, in this case, SVD and Pecheneg. To storm the AKM building with shops from the PKK. Honestly speaking, there are few differences with 5.45, but it seems a bit better on the premises. Do not think of anything more sane.

          There will be no new normal weapons never, a new cartridge all the more.
  • Ironcity
    Ironcity 17 October 2019 22: 49
    +2
    I read both the 1 and 2 parts of the article, I really liked the thoroughness and quality of the collected factology. But the conclusions were very surprising. A small-caliber gun that can break through an anti-splinter armor, are you serious?
    1. All these studies that did not prove the difference in OD between the calibers relate to 9 mm and .45, the inefficiency of small pistol calibers has been clarified for a long time. In the USSR, according to the results of the Second World War, the 7,62 TT was replaced with a much weaker one in terms of energy, but the best one in terms of OD 9x18. In the West, all these 32s have gradually come to naught.
    2. 5,7 fn is good for police and anti-terrorist structures, where a small caliber can be compensated for by expansiveness, for the army this is not suitable for legal reasons.
    3. The very concept of the MPE, where 5,7 fn and HC 4,6 competed, is quite controversial: there was a requirement to break through the anti-fragmentation armor on the 200 m, but is it enough to damage the official armor on the adversary to stop him? What is the acronym OD of a core weighing 1,5 gr when it lost speed and energy when breaking through armor? Well, as was noted in many comments, the police, collectors, and private security guards wear armor of the lower degrees of protection. In war or without armor - irregulars, or with serious defense of the army team.
    In short, the army does not need to try to solve all the problems with the short-barrel: to penetrate armor, shelters, etc. This is true for those who have the main weapon pistol. For the military, a pistol is a spare weapon, just in case. Let it be lightweight, compact, reliable. The caliber 9x19 is optimal, but 9x18 will do.
    1. Avior
      Avior 17 October 2019 23: 23
      0
      there is such information
      difficult to overcome and prejudice about ignorance
      sensitive stopping action of the small caliber
      ammunition. So far the only argument once
      PDW workers are shooting results for the same
      latin targets that showed that at a distance of
      100 m MP7A1 copes with the gelatin block thickness
      28 cm, while the diameter of the wound channel in 1,5 times
      higher than when shooting from MP5 and UMP caliber bullets
      9x19 and .45 ACP, respectively. However, the real point
      sticks of combat or police cartridge use
      4,6x30 does not exist yet.

      here
      (sorry, copied from pdf)
      http://www.kalashnikov.ru/medialibrary/a62/044_051.pdf
      But it does not say about the action of a bullet after breaking through a bulletproof vest
      1. Ironcity
        Ironcity 18 October 2019 00: 13
        0
        Thank. The test itself has not yet been found in the original source, but in the article by Kalashnikov it is not clear why the 4, 6 channel is larger than .45, is the bullet fragmented? Somersaulting? And we are talking about comparisons of PP at a distance of 100 m, which is not very important for pistols.
        1. Avior
          Avior 18 October 2019 00: 33
          0
          as I understand it, somersaulting, easy.
          Fragmented is prohibited for army weapons, as you wrote, and these PP, P90 and MP7, are army.
          I am very skeptical of the army pistol as a modern army weapon of self-defense.
          PP is another matter, it is already more realistic.
          The Americans recently also adopted the PP, but under the 9mm cartridge.
          Less than a year after a competition was announced for a sub-machine gun (Sub Compact Weapon program) for the US Army, the customer made his choice, naming Brugger & Thomet as the winner with its APC9K model.
          The initial requirements for the weapon were announced in May 2018, after which the army issued notices to manufacturers several times. As a result, six companies were selected (Angstadt Arms, B&T USA, Global Ordnance, LLC, Shield Arms, SIG SAUER, Trident Rifles, LLC) and each provided the military with 15 units of its weapons.

          There in Kalashnikov
          https://www.kalashnikov.ru/eto-konets-armiya-ssha-vybrala-pistolet-pulemyot/
    2. Droid
      Droid 18 October 2019 07: 44
      +2
      In the USSR, according to the results of the Second World War, the 7,62 TT was replaced with a much weaker one in terms of energy, but the best one in terms of OD 9x18.

      In the USSR, it was believed that OD 9x18 and TT are the same. And the reasons for its adoption were not in OD, but in the fact that 9x18 allowed creating a compact, lightweight, simple pistol with a free shutter.
      1. Glory1974
        Glory1974 18 October 2019 08: 58
        +2
        And the reasons for its adoption were not in OD, but in the fact that 9x18 allowed creating a compact, lightweight, simple pistol with a free shutter.

        It is in the OD reason. TT punched a man through and through, but he still did not die and could shoot. The PM no longer penetrated, but the enemy lost the ability to fire much faster. In the 90, the TT was popular with killers because it pierced body armor, unlike the PM.
        With the development of armor, the military again wanted penetration no worse than that of a TT, and an ML like a PM.
        Since the requirements are quite contradictory for existing pistols, therefore, they are developing dozens of new ones, but as a result, there are not a single weapon that suits all indicators.
        1. Droid
          Droid 18 October 2019 09: 26
          +1
          1. According to the results of the war in the USSR, it was believed that the stopping action of the 7,65-mm browning is quite enough.
          2. When developing the 9 mm pistol cartridge, the task was to create a cartridge with OD better than that of the 7,65 mm bragunig; OD TT was not discussed at all.
          3. According to the results of firing, the residual cavity in the TT is a quarter more than that of the PM.
          1. Glory1974
            Glory1974 18 October 2019 09: 35
            +2
            in the USSR it was believed that the stopping action of the 7,65-mm Browning is quite enough

            if everything was fine, then why
            When developing the 9-mm pistol cartridge, the task was to create a cartridge with OD better than the 7,65-mm bragunig,

            OD TT was not discussed at all.

            But do not you think that 7,62 and 7,65 are practically the same?
            1. Droid
              Droid 18 October 2019 09: 41
              -1
              Quote: glory1974
              if everything was fine, then why

              Then, what was developed immediately 2 pistol cartridge: 7,65-mm similar to Browning and 9-mm, and then selected. They chose 9 mm.
              Quote: glory1974
              But do not you think that 7,62 and 7,65 are practically the same?

              No, I don’t think so. The rifle 7,62-mm is not almost, but exactly the same caliber as the TT and Nagan, but that's not the same thing. This is exactly the case with the 7,65 × 17 mm Browning.
      2. Shopping Mall
        18 October 2019 09: 33
        0
        Quote: Droid
        In the USSR, according to the results of the Second World War, the 7,62 TT was replaced with a much weaker one in terms of energy, but the best one in terms of OD 9x18.

        In the USSR, it was believed that OD 9x18 and TT are the same. And the reasons for its adoption were not in OD, but in the fact that 9x18 allowed creating a compact, lightweight, simple pistol with a free shutter.


        Exactly. Plus, the TT itself is not very convenient and safe to use.
    3. Shopping Mall
      18 October 2019 09: 41
      +2
      Quote: Ironcity
      I read both the 1 and 2 parts of the article, I really liked the thoroughness and quality of the collected factology. But the conclusions were very surprising. A small-caliber gun that can break through an anti-splinter armor, are you serious?


      So in the 9 mm cartridge, only the core with a diameter of 6 mm pierces the armor, with rifles the caliber is 5,45-5,56 mm.

      Quote: Ironcity
      1. All these studies that did not prove the difference in OD between the calibers relate to 9 mm and .45, the inefficiency of small pistol calibers has been clarified for a long time. In the USSR, according to the results of the Second World War, the 7,62 TT was replaced with a much weaker one in terms of energy, but the best one in terms of OD 9x18. In the West, all these 32s have gradually come to naught.
      2. 5,7 fn is good for police and anti-terrorist structures, where a small caliber can be compensated for by expansiveness, for the army this is not suitable for legal reasons.


      Expansiveness is unreliable, disclosure is not always guaranteed. Check out the FBI test results. Just what I concluded, a more reliable defeat with a large number of bullets. Only their energy is important, providing a depth of penetration into the body through clothes, tissues, bones ...

      Quote: Ironcity
      3. The very concept of the MPE, where 5,7 fn and HC 4,6 competed, is quite controversial: there was a requirement to break through the anti-fragmentation armor on the 200 m, but is it enough to damage the official armor on the adversary to stop him? What is the acronym OD of a core weighing 1,5 gr when it lost speed and energy when breaking through armor?
      Well, as was noted in many comments, the police, collectors, and private security guards wear armor of the lower degrees of protection. In war or without armor - irregulars, or with serious defense of the army team.


      So the gun is used at shorter ranges. If the 5,45-6,8 mm rifle with the 1400-1700 J energy requires breaking through the NIB and the armor action on 100-300 meters, then the pistol with its 400-600 J on 5-15 meters.

      Quote: Ironcity
      In short, the army does not need to try to solve all the problems with the short-barrel: to penetrate armor, shelters, etc. This is true for those who have the main weapon pistol. For the military, a pistol is a spare weapon, just in case. Let it be lightweight, compact, reliable. The caliber 9x19 is optimal, but 9x18 will do.


      Five-seveN with 20 cartridges weighs 744 grams, and a PM with 8 cartridges weighs more than 800 gr. For me, the choice is obvious. Would you prefer that?
  • Russian Central Asian
    Russian Central Asian 18 October 2019 05: 00
    0
    In my humble opinion, the idea is not just good, it is great. All these new technologies, small bullets, telescopic ammunition - all this is wonderful and wonderful. It must be immediately implemented. And the main thing in this difficult matter is to find an office capable of developing and producing all this. Tula and Izhevsk-immediately disappear, they are old retrograde and they have a limited horizon. Vyatskiye Polyany and NIITOCHMASH - also sideways. - It’s clear even to a baby that they, in principle, cannot cope with all this. And, the question is, who is left, who can be entrusted with the development of this whole rather big budget (according to preliminary estimates, at least 100 lard rubles). The answer, in my opinion, lies on the surface - the great and unmatched by RUSNANO and its permanent leader, Anatoly Chubais. Only his office can easily cope with a drink of such a considerable budget. And through long and painstaking research, to bring into the light SOMETHING, which definitely will not go into any series and will remain somewhere in the warehouse in the same compartment with a school tablet with nano ink and other crap.
  • Russian Central Asian
    Russian Central Asian 18 October 2019 05: 10
    +1
    Now, if I honestly don’t understand it, why the heck is the city garden itself and it’s great to reinvent it. There is also an excellent trunk PP-2000. Reliable and compact, you can work perfectly with one hand. large ammunition, the ability to fire both single and bursts. Although if we focus not on creating a new pistol, but on drinking a budget, then of course we need to urgently invent something new.
    1. Droid
      Droid 18 October 2019 07: 51
      0
      Efficiency is not satisfied.
    2. Shopping Mall
      18 October 2019 13: 01
      +2
      Quote: Russian Central Asian
      Now, if I honestly don’t understand it, why the heck is the city garden itself and it’s great to reinvent it. There is also an excellent trunk PP-2000. Reliable and compact, you can work perfectly with one hand. large ammunition, the ability to fire both single and bursts. Although if we focus not on creating a new pistol, but on drinking a budget, then of course we need to urgently invent something new.


      Weight, kg
      1,4 (without magazine and stock) [1]
      0,12 (empty magazine on 20 cartridges) [1]
      0,19 (empty magazine on 44 cartridge) [1]
      0,26 (butt) [1]
      Length, mm 582 (with spread out butt) [1]
      350 (without butt) [1]
      Width mm 46 [1]

      He with cartridges will weigh more than two kilos, and he is not so small, how to wear it in addition to the machine?
  • tracer
    tracer 18 October 2019 06: 14
    +1
    I just recently mentioned these pistols on the topic "how to be a promising weapon to replace the Makarov pistol." Minus the "clever". Now minus the article ... more precisely, put counter arguments.
  • riwas
    riwas 18 October 2019 07: 03
    +2
    The article is interesting. A pistol like a PDW is certainly needed, but a retractable butt and a movie camera are required for firing around the corner, from the hip, etc.
    See my article http://www.sinor.ru/~bukren/indiv_oru.htm
    1. Shopping Mall
      18 October 2019 09: 31
      +2
      Quote: riwas
      The article is interesting. A pistol like a PDW is certainly needed, but a retractable butt and a movie camera are required for firing around the corner, from the hip, etc.
      See my article http://www.sinor.ru/~bukren/indiv_oru.htm


      One of these days one more material should come out (already handed over), there these questions are considered.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 18 October 2019 11: 37
    +1
    Why does a soldier or officer need a gun capable of breaking through a bulletproof vest if he has a machine gun? Or will we spend billions and equip servicemen with super-capable pistols only for the situation in which they will be with a probability of 0,1%? But not more effective (in general) instead of a super pistol for 1000у.е. to give each fighter to his machine gun an optical or caliber sight? The army is pragmatism in the 10 degree, the main fulfillment of a combat mission. What will be more effective on the battlefield: a company of soldiers with machine guns and super pistols or a company of soldiers with machine guns and optical sights? After all, the money for arming a company is the same.
    1. Shopping Mall
      18 October 2019 12: 58
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      Why does a soldier or officer need a gun capable of breaking through a bulletproof vest if he has a machine gun? Or will we spend billions and equip servicemen with super-capable pistols only for the situation in which they will be with a probability of 0,1%? But not more effective (in general) instead of a super pistol for 1000у.е. to give each fighter to his machine gun an optical or caliber sight? The army is pragmatism in the 10 degree, the main fulfillment of a combat mission. What will be more effective on the battlefield: a company of soldiers with machine guns and super pistols or a company of soldiers with machine guns and optical sights? After all, the money for arming a company is the same.


      And where did you get that the army will give a super gun? After all, it is clearly divided into stages - first, a model is created on the basis of existing technologies, weapons and cartridges. For the price it will not be more expensive than PY / Boa constrictor.
      Then, based on the experience gained, a breakthrough product is created for special forces when the price of an error is too high and the price is not critical. If the second stage is successful, then the 3 stage is looking for ways to reduce the cost of an advanced product without a significant reduction in performance, for mass weapons.

      And the sight here has absolutely nothing to do with it, by default it should be included in the package of delivery with a gun, like a grenade launcher, walkie-talkie, safety glasses and active headphones, and much more.

      Another question is that those who are fighting or who can fight in the short term, and then all the others, should arm themselves with all this first of all.
  • Kolin
    Kolin 18 October 2019 15: 35
    +1
    Best PDW - AK 105.
  • Doliva63
    Doliva63 18 October 2019 18: 17
    0
    The author specifically cares for the military, and the military asked him about this? The military are fighting with machine guns / machine guns / tanks / planes. The gun - so, you never know. And that was not always the case when the pilots carried the AKSU with them, for the battle with the gun was full scales, even if it would be 11,43 and shoot at the 2 cartridge. The army pistol should be small-sized, weigh a little and mount so that it does not interfere. You shoot from it with 15 m., I don’t care about the bronik, you shoot, for example, in the neck. PM - for the time being.
    1. Shopping Mall
      18 October 2019 21: 24
      -1
      Quote: Doliva63
      You shoot from it with 15 m., I don’t care about the bronik, you shoot, for example, in the neck. PM - for the time being.
      Have you ever shot a pistol? With 15 meters in the neck? good
  • Massik
    Massik 18 October 2019 21: 32
    0
    A submachine gun is a weapon, and a gun is pampering. Which weighs like 4 grenades.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 18 October 2019 22: 29
    +1
    Quote: AVM
    And where did you get that the army will give a super gun?

    Well, probably because the military of the whole world are thinking today how to create an effective small arms in the "form factor" of an assault rifle for engaging military personnel in modern SIBZ. And any pistol is at least three times shorter barrel and half the size of the cartridge. Miracles do not happen - either to lower any characteristics (AP) for the sake of armor penetration, or to create a "megablaster" at the price of a used helicopter firing depleted uranium bullets, for example.
    Quote: AVM
    Then, based on the experience gained, a breakthrough product is created for special forces when the price of an error is too high and the price is not critical.

    And there is a scientific and proven basis for a breakthrough product. What is the essence of the breakthrough? Or do you think tungsten carbide core is the key to success? These are technologies of the 30s of the last century. Only then were the tanks going to "make holes" with rifle calibers. It didn't work out - there are no miracles.
    Quote: AVM
    If the second stage is successful, then the 3 stage is looking for ways to reduce the cost of an advanced product without a significant reduction in performance, for mass weapons.

    These are all general phrases and nothing more. Everything you say is the usual steps for creating any product. The essence of the success of any "enterprise" is the presence of advanced technology, which is not in the article. Everything you propose has been around for about 100 years to one degree or another.

    Quote: AVM
    And the sight here has absolutely nothing to do with it, by default it should be included in the package of delivery with a gun, like a grenade launcher, walkie-talkie, safety glasses and active headphones, and much more.

    In the army, as in life, there are problems and there are various solutions. The question is simple to disgrace: how to complete the task most efficiently, spending the least amount of resources. A pistol in the army, capable of penetrating army SIBZs at a distance of 25 ... 50m, according to the priority of the task, is somewhere between what to give the military man as a headdress for the main exit - he takes or all the same a cap.
    1. Shopping Mall
      19 October 2019 11: 06
      0
      Quote: DesToeR
      Well, probably because the military of the whole world are thinking today how to create an effective small arms in the "form factor" of an assault rifle for engaging military personnel in modern SIBZ. And any pistol is at least three times shorter barrel and half the size of the cartridge. Miracles do not happen - either to lower any characteristics (AP) for the sake of armor penetration, or to create a "megablaster" at the price of a used helicopter firing depleted uranium bullets, for example.


      And the distance of using the gun is not 300-500 meters but 5-15 meters, which makes the task quite solvable.

      Quote: DesToeR
      And there is a scientific and proven basis for a breakthrough product. What is the essence of the breakthrough? Or do you think tungsten carbide core is the key to success? These are technologies of the 30s of the last century. Only then were the tanks going to "make holes" with rifle calibers. It didn't work out - there are no miracles.


      Often, a promising product can be created on the basis of those technologies that were previously considered, but were not implemented due to technological limitations of that time, for example, the lack of 3D printing. This does not mean that they cannot be implemented now.

      Quote: DesToeR
      Quote: AVM
      If the second stage is successful, then the 3 stage is looking for ways to reduce the cost of an advanced product without a significant reduction in performance, for mass weapons.

      These are all general phrases and nothing more. Everything you say is the usual steps for creating any product. The essence of the success of any "enterprise" is the presence of advanced technology, which is not in the article. Everything you propose has been around for about 100 years to one degree or another.


      And what advanced technology do you need, railgun? The point is precisely to create a more effective weapon in existing technologies (1 stage), to verify the correctness of the concept in practice (the effectiveness of firing two small-caliber bullets against one larger caliber). If everything works - stage 2 - telescopic cartridge, ceramic core, cermet or plastic sleeve, i.e. weapons according to the same concept, but with higher characteristics. If successful, it will be expensive (most likely), therefore, only for special forces. And the third stage is the search for ways to reduce the cost of manufacturing technologies for the 2 stage. In any case, this will be introduced - cores, new cartridges and more, so you still have to look for ways to reduce the cost of new technologies, and they will go away for pistol cartridges and for machine guns.

      Quote: DesToeR
      A pistol in the army, capable of penetrating army SIBZs at a distance of 25 ... 50m, according to the priority of the task, is somewhere between what to give the military man as a headdress for the main exit - he takes or all the same a cap.


      Really. What, then, did our MO pawn on this demand for a promising pistol? Where did the cartridges 7Н21, 7Н31, 7Н29, pistols GSH-18, Gyurza, Boa come from?
  • K-50
    K-50 19 October 2019 20: 16
    0
    maximum dimensions of the cartridge 8x40 mm

    The 7,62 * 25TT cartridge fits perfectly here. It can only change the design of the bullet to improve overcoming NIB. what
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 20 October 2019 10: 39
    0
    Quote: AVM
    And what advanced technology do you need, railgun?

    Is there an alternative?
    Quote: AVM
    The point is precisely to create a more effective weapon in existing technologies

    Created already by Heckler und Koch and FN. Two sets of weapons + cartridge. So what is next? They are satisfied with the capabilities of the military to defeat soldiers in modern SIBZ. moreover, the cartridges are created as it is fashionable today to express "limiting parameters" - there is nowhere less.
    Quote: AVM
    telescopic cartridge, ceramic core, cermet or plastic sleeve, i.e. weapons according to the same concept, but with higher characteristics.

    You are not proposing anything new. Everything already exists from the 30's or 80's of the last century and, in the final balance, does not add significantly to the flight speed of the ammunition. Reduces the cost of each cartridge - yes, reduces the weight of the ammunition - yes. But the characteristics of the projectile does not increase at times ...
    Quote: AVM
    If successful, it will be expensive (most likely), therefore, only for special forces.

    Voila! Now we read the title of the article and draw a dumb scene. For whom did you declare such a pistol? Specialists (for business) can make 1000 pieces of unique samples from alloys obtained in vacuum in geostationary orbit. And to grow ammunition in laboratories for the production of artificial diamonds, again ... for "business". Why would an ordinary soldier / officer with a machine gun or a soldier of a special army reconnaissance unit need such a pistol? Why would a policeman need such a gun? In what scenario is not an assault rifle / sniper rifle / machine gun used, but a pistol against an army-type SIBZ ?!

    Quote: AVM
    What, then, did our MO pawn on this demand for a promising pistol?

    Mortgaged and what? TSNIITOCHMASH issued a boar pistol to the mountain. 4mm steel - that’s actually all ... diverge. An army helmet from Kevlar / Aramid will be pierced - the task is completed.
    1. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 20 October 2019 21: 13
      0
      Generally hastened to abandon 7.62
      In fact, this caliber for pistols and MPEs is the middle ground between the 5.7 hole punch and the usual 9 mm with mortar trajectory at 100 m (maximum fire efficiency up to 130 m, which coincides with that of 5.7x28 in fact)
      It would be more reasonable to make a PDV cartridge based on a bullet to the existing 7.62x39, with a sleeve of approximately 28 mm in length and lightweight bottling. It is possible to make this cartridge based on the 5.45x39 liner, this will reduce the cost of production
      The speed 7.9 g of a bullet can be achieved in the region of 470 m / s, which will give us approximately 860 joule of muzzle energy with a completely adult ballistic coefficient of the bullet in the region of 0,3. That will allow the use of this cartridge in both pistols and PDV (10 auto cartridges can have the same muzzle energy, but this cartridge is better)
      The 7.62 caliber will allow you to have more than enough stopping action (like the 7.62 machine on 250 m, it’s quite good), as well as excellent breakdown, plus there are already bullets, they do not need to be developed separately, and the whole spectrum is ready. The 7,62 bullet with the 0.3 BC with the initial 470 m / s will be effective up to 250 m confidently and will even work on the 300 m, which is absolutely unattainable for the small-caliber type 5.7x28 or 9x19 / 9х21
  • Morzh Redkovich Borschitsky
    Morzh Redkovich Borschitsky 20 October 2019 23: 56
    0
    I propose to abandon the concept of a cartridge for a pistol, as being unnecessarily cumbersome for this functional niche. Let's define a pistol as a short range weapon. Then let the user have a supply of propellant in the form of a tube of paste. A variant of the chemical composition can be a compound of ammonia and boron hydride - a solid that can decompose into hydrogen and boron nitride, without generating much heat. Hydrogen and flushes, no oxidizing environment, carbon deposits and odor.

    Further, let the barrel be without rifling, smooth - for a short distance this is not a problem. This will allow you to charge and release different bullets by sticking a polyethylene shirt on them. (In fact, they can be twisted, if in this shirt to make a slanting relief for a controlled breakthrough of gases.)

    Further, the main mode of such a pistol will still not be shooting with “ordinary” bullets, that is, metal high-speed, as the author of the article suggested. Let the user carry a stock of pasty plastic explosives, and now she just shoots. Namely, a soft bullet is fired, which plops into the surface of the SIBZ, spreads like a blot on it and detonates, creating a flat explosion on the indicated surface. With these blows or slaps, the enemy is defeated.

    Such a gun will reduce complaints about excess cargo worn instead of useful things, cartridges for the main weapon or grenades. After all, the user will be able to use the aforementioned reserves of propellant and plastic explosives differently. Charge grenades with them, for example, or in the same main weapon.
  • philosopher
    philosopher 21 October 2019 10: 57
    0
    Wow, someone else is engaged in such theoretical research on an initiative basis! I also once read about the appearance of the H&K MP-7 and it inspired me so much that I began to rummage through the tables of parameters of various cartridges in order to deduce the optimal parameters for a self-defense cartridge, which would supplant the classic pistol cartridge in the niche of light automatic weapons for self-defense of military personnel , not participating in direct clash with enemy forces. That is, for the PDW concept.
    Only then I got an 6,35x30 cartridge with a bullet weighing 3 g, which has a tompack shell and a carbide core exposed in the nose. As a basis, you can take the cartridge sleeve 7,62x25, elongated and re-compressed under the muzzle of a smaller caliber. And this is subject to the use of classic gunpowders. With the use of advanced high-energy gunpowders, of course, it is possible and necessary to reduce the diameter of the bottom of the sleeve in order to reduce the weight and volume of ammunition carried.
    It seemed to me logical to realize a double rate of fire in weapons: automatic, using a retarder up to the traditional 650..800 rounds per minute and a reserve one, with the retarder disabled for a maximum fire density of 1500..2000 rounds / min, but with a cutoff limiting the length bursts of 3-4 rounds, giving the effect of a shotgun at a short distance, when shooting is conducted "in the direction of the enemy" in thick dust or smoke, at an unexpectedly appearing target, for example, in urban ruins.
    I remember that there was a big popular topic about a promising pistol under the theoretical domestic PDW cartridge on the Hansa.
  • grumbler
    grumbler 21 October 2019 11: 05
    0
    Disputes flare up as there is a constant shift away from the topic "promising army pistol" (AP), towards the "special forces" / "anti-terror" / police / sports / civilian pistol.
    But, if you do not require too much from the AP, then the requirements are simplified. See my analysis of the AP in the comment https://topwar.ru/156278-armejskij-pistolet-v-rossii-chast-2.html, grumbler, October 10 2019 (I wonder how much such speculative analysis can coincide with your conclusions?) . My main message:
    * By AP: The most reliable, simple, "smooth" (for this it is NOT equipped with collimator sights, flashlights and laser designators, etc., with a body kit and mounts for it),
    not too large and "brutal", comfortable in the hand. The pistol + ammunition system is sufficient for reliable hitting of the target in body armor at short distances (0..25, 50 m max.).
    * Ammunition: necessarily unified for AP and PP.
    * According to the "small-sized army submachine gun" (PP): The same reliability, unpretentiousness, ease of maintenance, convenience. Minimum body kit. But in the PP it is necessary to use a collimator sight integrated into the design (since the fire is carried out "offhand", from awkward positions, by a tired and not very trained shooter. Especially typical for field medics - they have to carry the wounded on themselves - what kind of "prize shooting" "?)
    * It seems that the requirements for the firepower of the AP have grown so much, and the AP has become so perfect that the AP will be gradually replaced by the small AP (especially as a weapon of "auxiliary" units).
    Except, when the AP is a spare, one-armed, "raid" weapon - people will not want to carry a more massive AP and prefer a lighter AP.
    And thanks again to the Author for the informative series of articles.
  • Ura Orlov
    Ura Orlov 22 October 2019 07: 37
    0
    22 WMR rules!
    1. Alex.ET
      Alex.ET 21 May 2020 23: 26
      0
      kel-tec pmr-30 looks like an ideal service pistol - lightweight, weighs only 550g with a magazine for 30 rounds, it’s not even necessary to carry a spare gun, it’s easy to shoot, podshamanit \ optimize the rifle-ammunition ammunition for a new task - change gunpowder and bullets, raise energy and armor-piercing \ stopping effect. And even if I didn’t want the fiftieth AE of the adversary to be deported from the horse and pierced through with the armor-piercing core along with the armor, pmr-30 will be much more likely to survive and to carry with it is incomparably easier. IMHO, very good aggregate characteristics, especially after revision, I emphasize that this is my opinion not claiming the ultimate truth.
  • Vyacheslav A.
    Vyacheslav A. 2 November 2019 12: 55
    0
    Good afternoon! A series of two three shots theoretically increases the probability of hitting a target - due to some dispersion during firing. The same principle of dispersion when firing is used in the rapid-fire. The same AN94 in the high-rate shooting mode with a series of 2 shots has a rather large dispersion when firing - which increases the likelihood of hitting a moving target. High-rate shooting in any way - absolutely does not affect the armor penetration. For it is impossible to get bullets fired by a series of 2-3 shots in a high-rate fire mode (even 2-3 thousand rds / min) at one point, not even one in a certain area of ​​small size. Therefore, talking about a high-rate firing mode as a way to increase armor penetration is incorrect. But as a way to increase the probability of hitting a target, especially a moving one, it’s completely correct. Sincerely.