Military Review

"Pearls" and "Emerald" in Tsushima. The actions of the cruisers in the day battle 14 May

266
Considering the actions of the Pearl and Emerald armored cruisers on the first day of the Tsushima battle, there are three main stages: from dawn to the start of the main forces in 13.49 Russian time; from 13.49 to 16.00 tentatively, when the cruisers tried to solve the tasks assigned to them before the battle ZP Rozhdestvensky, as well as with 16.00 and until the end of the day battle. In the last period of time, the Emerald was still trying to fulfill its role as a “rehearsal and rescue” ship under the main forces, and the Pearl joined the cruisers of Rear Admiral O.A. Enquist




Before the battle


Events before 13.49 of the day were described in detail earlier, just to remind you that both Pearl and Emerald were in the main forces and were not removed from the reconnaissance squadron. There were three main reasons for this:

1. Intelligence makes sense only when it allows the enemy fleet to be detected and monitored before the meeting of the main forces. The 2-th and 3-Pacific cruiser squadrons were too small and weak for reconnaissance operations and could not solve this problem;

2. Regardless of the reasons for paragraph 1., The reconnaissance attempt could have been made, but given the direction the main Japanese forces were expected to approach from (north), there were strong cruiser Japanese forces that would lead to battle of cruisers unequal for us conditions. In this case, the Russian cruiser detachment would have squandered its combat capability even before the start of the battle in which it was to guard the transports, and, apparently, could no longer protect them;

3. The key reason for the rejection of cruise intelligence, according to the author, was the plan for the battle Z.P. Rozhestvensky, who meant rebuilding into battle order in view of the main forces of the enemy. For the success of this plan, there was no need to either conduct reconnaissance or prevent the enemy’s reconnaissance ships, since the Japanese commander should have known that the Russians were marching and building a plan of attack for the main forces of the Russian squadron on this basis.

Pearl Actions to 16.00


At the beginning of the battle, the Russian squadron fought on the left, "Pearls" and "Emerald" were from the right, fulfilling the duties of repetitive ships, and in addition, they had to cover the main forces from mine attacks and give help to the beaten out ships. As it was described in the previous article, “Pearls” did just that, but, mistakenly assuming that the Japanese were crossing over to the right side of the squadron, cut through its system in order to be on the left flank and thus pleased right between the fighting columns. Then he, as it were, “descended down” to the terminal ships of the Russian squadron, and again went over to its right side. However, not wanting to interfere with the volleyball of the coastal defense battleship, the "General-Admiral Apraksin" slowed down, causing the submarine "Ural", which had almost lost controllability, made a pile on the "Pearl", and in the "Urals" believed that " crushed "" Emerald. " After that, Pearl tried to move forward, but saw the damaged battleship, and approached it, believing that it was the flagship Prince Suvorov, although in reality it was Alexander III. At this time, Russian destroyers passed by the “Pearls”, one of which saw the flag officer Z.P. Rozhdestvenskogo Clapier de Colong, hence the assumption that the entire headquarters, and the admiral is also on the destroyer. The Japanese battleships approached Alexander III, and the commander of Pearls, P.P. Levitsky, having no chance to support the battleship (the only mine apparatus that the cruiser could use in conditions of agitation was damaged during the collision with the "Ural"), of course, retreated. “Pearl” went after the destroyers, believing that the admiral would wish to go to the cruiser outside the fire zone, but this did not happen, and later, around 16.00, “Pearl” joined the cruiser detachment of Rear Admiral OA Enkvist, taking part in the protection of transports from the attack of Japanese cruisers. What did the Emerald do at this time?

Emerald actions from 13.49 to 16.00


This cruiser, under the command of Baron Vasily Nikolaevich Ferzen, by order of Z.P. Rozhestvensky performed the same functions as the Pearls, but with the 2 armored detachment headed by Oslyabye, while the Pearls with the 1 consisted of Borodino-type battleships. With the beginning of the battle of the main forces, the Emerald pulled away over the trawls of Oslyabi, and for a while nothing interesting happened to him.

The cruiser made its first active actions soon after Oslyabya completely lost its combat capability. As is known, the latter in 14.45 failed with a strong trim on the nose and a roll on the left side, turned on the countercourse to the squadron (that is, on 180 hail) and stopped the cars. Nevertheless, the commander of the Emerald did not consider that the flagship of the 2 armored squadron needed his help. But the Oslyab roll quickly grew while the main forces of the Russian squadron passed by the battleship, and when the Oslyabya turned out to be in front of the end 3 of the armored squad, it unexpectedly quickly turned over.

According to the report V.N. Ferzen, he sent the "Emerald" to the dying armadillo, when he saw that Oslyabya was in distress: perhaps it was about the moment when the latter began to roll over. In addition to the "Emerald" to the site of the tragedy, the 4 of the destroyer, including "Violent" and "Bravy", also went. They were the first to have time and saved people with might and main when the Emerald approached: from the last one they threw beds, buoys and one whaleboat without rowers, the cruiser itself stopped.

What happened next is not entirely clear. So, for example, V.V. Khromov points out that the Emerald carried out the rescue of people until he saw the ships of the 3 armor unit approaching him and then had to depart in order not to interfere with the battleships. However, the author of this article is not clear how this could be: a similar interpretation does not coincide too much with the possible maneuvering of units in battle. Most likely, dear V.V. Khromov was guided by the report of V.N. Ferzen, but I must admit that in this part he is very suspicious. Here is how the commander of the Emerald cruiser saw this moment of the battle:

“A few moments after stopping at the site of Oslyabya’s death, I noticed that I was disturbing the maneuvers of the battleships marching on me; when and how they turned - I do not know. I saw the battleships of the 3 squadron head, and behind them the 3 battleships of the 2 squadron; the first armored detachment, being on the sidelines, defended the “Suvorov”, which had masts, the trumpet and all the upper superstructures, and on which there was a strong fire ”.


Most likely, the events described occurred closer to 16.00, when the Borodino squadron led: by this time, the structure of the Russian ships was really pretty mixed up. Borodino was the first to go, the Eagle followed him, and then Sisoy the Great, but the latter, having been damaged, went out of order, so that its place was taken by the Emperor Nicholas I. He was followed by all three battleships of coastal defense, and only then by him in the wake, the Navarin, the Admiral Nakhimov, and the returned Alexander III. Probably, it was these ships V.N. Fersen took the battleships of the 2 squad to be the battleships - and was, in general, not far from the truth.

Pearls and Emerald after 16.00


And so, at about four o'clock in the afternoon, it turned out that the armored detachments of the "wards" with "Pearls" and "Emerald" left only two ships, and the flagships in the other detachment failed. What happened next? Unfortunately, sources do not give a definite answer to this question. So, A.A. Alliluev and M.A. Bogdanov argues that approximately in 16.00, Pearl and Emerald joined the cruiser detachment defending the transports, while others (VV Khromov, for example) indicate that O.A. Enkvist was joined only by the "Pearl".

In order to understand how things were in reality, let us briefly consider what the cruiser detachment of the Russian squadron was doing at that moment. Their maneuvers and combat is a topic for a large separate work, so it makes sense to confine ourselves only to the most general description of cruising combat.

It all started with "Izumi", who made an attempt to get closer to the transports and bombard them with "Vladimir Monomakh" when the latter entered the battle. Rear Admiral O.A. Enquist, apparently thought of destroying the Japanese cruiser, since he went to the Oleg with the Aurora and Dmitry Donskoy to the rescue — Izumi fled. However, then the 3 and 4 combat troops of the Japanese appeared: “Kasagi”, “Chitose”, “Otova” and “Niitaka” under the command of Vice Admiral Deva and “Naniwa”, “Takachiho”, “Akashi” and “Tsushima” Under the flag of Vice Admiral Uriu. In 14.30, the battle began, and the Japanese were twice as good as the number of pennants. In 15.10, OA Enquist turned on 16 points (180 grad.) In order to disperse with the Japanese countercourse, passing between them and the transports (probably, by that time the Russian cruisers were far from the last), but the Japanese repeated the Russian rear admiral. And after only 10 minutes, three more Japanese cruisers approached 15.20: Suma, Chiyoda and Akitsushima, making the aspect ratio unprofitable for Russian ships.


Flagship cruiser OA Ankvist "Oleg" before leaving to the Far East


However, the Japanese fire was not very accurate, as O.A. Enquist, and our cruisers could hold. Moreover, when the disastrous situation of “Prince Suvorov” was discovered at 15.35, the rear admiral led his cruiser and Aurora to the rescue, leaving only Vladimir Monomakh and Dmitry Donskoy to cover the transports - but seeing that the Russians Armadillos move in the direction of "Suvorov", returned to the transports in order to continue the unequal battle. According to O.A. Enquist looked like this:

"About 4 hours" Oleg "and" Aurora ", seeing the squadron approaching to help Suvorov and noticing the dangerous position of the transports, which were on the side of the enemy armored cruisers, with the signal from" Oleg "," Vladimir Monomakh "and" Dmitry Donskoy ", went to rapprochement with the enemy; turning to the right, “Pearls” and “Emerald” also joined the cruising detachment, the presence of which in the battleships could not bring any benefit ”.


The commander of the "Pearl" described this moment of the battle in a similar way, but still a little differently. P.P. Levitsky saw the situation in such a way that "Oleg", "Aurora", "Dmitry Donskoy" and "Vladimir Monomakh", moving in the wake of a convoy, fight 10 with enemy light cruisers (the term PP Levitsky was written in his report , and this is the correct figure, since “Takachiho”, as a result of hitting the Russian projectile that damaged the steering wheel, was forced to leave the battlefield for a while) at a distance of the order of 20-25 cables. Apparently, PP Levitsky, as well as O.A. Enquist, considered that his continued stay with the battleships of the main forces would not help anything, and preferred to support the cruisers. He himself described his decision:

“Seeing that the enemy cruisers were pushing ours away, I entered the wake of Vladimir Monomakh to take part in the battle, assist our cruisers and give the crew the opportunity to shoot at a visible enemy.”


Thus, the "Pearl" really joined the ships O.A. Enquist, but there are some doubts about the Emerald. Of course, in his report, the Rear Admiral directly stated that the cruiser VN Ferzen joined his ships, but the phrase of P.P. Levitsky: “Izumrud also joined the cruisers:“ Almaz ”and“ Svetlana ”also took part in this battle” can also be understood that the accession of “Izumrud” was that he engaged in battle with the same enemy, as the OA cruisers Enquist The most important thing is that the commander of the Emerald VN. Fersen did not say a word in his report that he had joined his ship to the cruisers. As a matter of fact, his description of the events in the 16.00 area is as follows:

“At the time of building cruisers and armadillos of the 3-th and 2-th units merged; I attached myself outside the circle of this system, against the interval between the Nakhimov (front) and Oleg, and supported the fire on the enemy cruisers. Ahead of me, next to the next interval, also outside, was the "Almaz"; at that time, part of the squadron, to which I joined, was fired at by the enemy main forces on the right, and by cruisers — on the left. It was very difficult to follow the course of the battle, since all our attention had to be paid to controlling the cruiser, so as not to encounter any of the transports that had lost any order, and the destroyers, who continually cut through the line: they had to repeatedly rear or stopping of the car, thanks to which it was necessary to poison the steam in the refrigerators, by which the latter were blown up and subsequently allowed to flow. ”


In other words, it seems that closer to 16.00, when Russian battleships as a result of a series of maneuvers seemed to return to the transports they had left earlier, it turned out that the latter, following rather chaotically, found themselves between Russian battleships and cruisers, and into this heap and pleased "Emerald". He did not join anyone, but “all the time he kept firing at enemy ships coming to the corner of shelling” (according to VN Ferzen). Apparently, the best armored cruisers of the Japanese were visible from the Emerald, which created the illusion that this cruiser was attached to the ships of O.A. Enquist


"Emerald" in the campaign to Tsushima. In the foreground - the destroyer "Grozny"


In any case, it should be noted that after 16.00 and, approximately, before 17.15, when the battle, in the words of the compilers of the official stories Tsushima battle "a few verse", "Pearls" and "Emerald" had to participate in a fierce battle. It would seem that from 16.10 to 17.15 the position of “Oleg”, “Aurora”, “Vladimir Monomakh” and “Dmitry Donskoy” improved a little because they were also supported by “Pearls”, “Izumrud” and “Svetlana” with “Almaz” so the ratio between the armored cruisers was already 10: 8 in favor of the Japanese, if, of course, we considered the “Diamond” with its 4 * 75-mm guns for a real cruiser. But in fact, no improvement occurred, since the ships of Rear Admiral OA Enquist came under crossfire. According to the report of Rear Admiral: “Next, in order to lie parallel to the Japanese cruisers, our cruisers began to lean to the left. During these turns, the cruiser detachment was under crossfire from one side of the armored cruisers, on the other - the Nissin and Kasuga. And O.A. Enquist noted that it was at this time that his head “Oleg” and “Aurora” received the most sensitive injuries. Which, however, is completely unsurprising: the Japanese tried to translate their best gunners into armadillos and armored cruisers, so that they fired much better than armored cruisers.

However, both Japanese and Russian armored cruisers received support - Admiral Kataoka came to the aid of the Japanese from the Chin-Yen and three Matsushima, and in addition, the armored cruisers H. Kamimura caught up with the Russian squadron. But the ships and O.A. Enquist received support from their battleships not connected in combat with the 1 th combat detachment of H. Togo. I must say that in this episode, the Japanese "armored massacrers" got the hardest: the forces were forced to leave Kasagi and Naniwa, and the affairs of Kasagi were so serious that Cheetos had to accompany him to the Bay of Aburadani. "Naniwa" managed to quickly fix it, and soon returned to his squad.

In this episode of the battle, the active participation of Pearls, and, most likely, Emerald, ended even before 17.00, since the Japanese cruisers, having been damaged, retreated and went beyond the effective fire of cruisers. As for the mutual position of the cruising and armored detachments, the cruisers along with the “Pearls” were somewhat behind the battleships, and then were forced to catch up. Near 120, the wake column of cruisers caught up with the main forces and settled in the 17.30-12 (according to various sources) cable from them, while the “Oleg” was going abeam the “Emperor Nicholas I”. So, there is no doubt that "Pearls" all the time the battle was with the cruisers, following the "Vladimir Monomakh" all this time. But what Emerald was doing at that time is unclear, but judging by the description of V.N. Ferzen did not enter the column of cruisers, and closer to the 15 his cruiser was abeam the Emperor Nicholas I, that is, he was between this battleship and the flagship cruiser O.A. Ankvist "Oleg".

By this time, the armored cruisers of the Japanese returned and the cruising battle resumed, and both the Pearl and the Emerald took an active part in it. At the same time, the “Pearl” kept the cruisers OA Enquist, though, perhaps, did not follow them in the wake of the wake, and the Emerald was fighting in starboard, while being in the battleships. The battle of the cruisers, however, did not drag on, continuing to a maximum of 18.00 or even less.

On this day the battle for "Pearls" ended, but the team "Emerald" still had a thrill. In 18.30, it was observed that a flame between the chimneys appeared on the Alexander III, and it went down: it quickly tilted and turned over.


"Emperor Alexander III" as part of the 2 th Pacific Squadron


The Emerald immediately went to the crash site. Approaching the overturned ship (the keel of the “Alexander III” was above the water), the Emerald stopped, and began to throw bunks, circles and other tackle, which the drowning people could hold onto, and in addition began to launch the rowing boat, because whaleboats at that time were either damaged or filled with water on the eve of the battle and could not be used. But at that time, the 2 combat squadron approached the site of the death of the “Alexander III”: the 6 of the armored cruisers of H. Kamimura, including the returned Asama. Of course, the Japanese ships immediately opened fire on the cruiser standing in place, and the Russian squadron could not cover the Emerald, as its terminal ships were already in 2 miles from it, and the distance to the enemy exceeded 40 cables. To honor V.N. Ferzen, the Emerald remained in place until the distance to the nearest Japanese cruiser decreased to the 23 cable, and only then ordered to give full speed. Since, of course, this could not be done all at once, the Emerald was moving closer to the Japanese ships before the 20 cable before it could break the distance and retreat to the main forces of the Russian squadron.

At this point, the participation of "Pearls" and "Emerald" in the 14 May Day battle can be considered complete. What can be said about the actions of these cruisers?

Some conclusions


Unfortunately, participation in the Tsushima battle of Russian armored cruisers of the 2 rank in Tsushima in the most accessible sources (V. V. Khromov, A. A. Alliluev, M. A. Bogdanov) is described very sparingly. According to him, it seems that the Russian cruisers did not really fight, but were only present during the defeat of the Russian squadron, and meanwhile, this is absolutely not the case. The period of passive waiting, when "Pearls" and "Emerald" did not try to get involved in the battle, playing the role of "repetitive and anti-mine vessels", assigned to them by Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, continued from 13.49 to 16.00. Yes, and it turned out to be a “diluted” dashing “Pearl” raid between the wake columns of fighting squadrons, even if it was made by mistake. And then, from about 16.00 to 18.00, both Pearls and Emerald fought an intense and hot battle with the Japanese armored cruisers.

Novik’s actions at Port Arthur on 27 on January 1904, when the small cruiser “attacked” the Japanese squadron, moving closer to the 15-17 cables, deservedly received the most enthusiastic reviews. But the "Pearl" with the "Emerald" also often found themselves in close proximity to heavy Japanese ships. “Pearls”, moving to the left side of the squadron, dangerously approached Nissin and Kasuga, being on 25 cable or less from them, and then, approaching Alexander III, was only 20 cable from Japanese battleships. What does Baron V.N. Ferzen, his attempt to save the crew of the Alexander III, for which he allowed the Izumrud standing in place (!) To approach the Japanese armored cruisers on the 20 cable, is worthy of the highest praise, although it should also be noted that the cruiser was not hit only by miracle

What damage have received while Russian cruisers? According to A.A. Alliluyeva and M.A. Bogdanov "Emerald" in a day battle received hits 3 shells that did not cause him special damage. But in the reports of the commander and officers of the cruiser the number of enemy hits is not indicated, and the figures given by the above authors may be erroneous. The fact is that A.A. Alliluev and M.A. Bogdanov reported 17 hits to Pearls, but this is a clear mistake, because in the report, OA Enquist Pearl damage is reported in detail, and their list includes 17 points:

1. Broken middle chimney and its casing.
2. The front chimney was pierced by shrapnel blasts.
3. The fan is broken in several places.
4. Broken command entrance hatch.
5. The bulwark at the entrance commander's hatch is broken.
6. Concave and pierced bulkhead bath.
7. The commander's entrance ladder is broken.
8. The upper wooden and iron deck was pierced near the 120-mm gun №1.
9. The upper and living deck is pierced near the entrance commander's hatch.
10. Concave right gunwalk on the poop.
11. The whaleboat No.1 and the rowing boat No.1 are broken.
12. Spread the gunwalker on the bridge.
13. The bed grid of the 120-mm gun №1 is broken.
14. The right screw is bent.
15. Flowing steering oil seal.
16. Two water cisterns were pierced with splinters.
17. The upper deck is spoiled in many places.

Obviously, some of these damages may be the result of the same hit, and vice versa - screw damage is generally not associated with enemy fire, but was caused by the pile of the Ural on the cruiser’s stern. Thus, the data on 17 hits in “Pearls” should be considered obviously erroneous, and is it worth while unconditionally trusting the information on 3 hits in “Emerald” from the pen of the same authors? As for the losses among the crew, then on the "Pearls" all 12 people died, including 2 officers. Baron Wrangel, the midshipman of Tavastshorna, Konkov's conductor and 8 of the lower ranks fell directly in battle. Another sailor subsequently died from his wounds. The injured were 22 people, including the conductor Shorokhov and the 7 of the lower ranks, the midshipman Kiselev, the ensign Spadowski and the 12 of the lower ranks easily. There were no dead at Emerald, and there were 4 people injured.

In terms of ammunition consumption, Baron V.N. Ferzen pointed out that during the battle, “Emerald” shot about 200 shells with an 120-mm caliber, and 47-mm cannons did not shoot beyond the range. As for the “Pearl”, its commander, P.P. Levitsky, found it difficult to specify the consumption of projectiles, but it can be assumed that such was not less, if not more than that of Emerald.

Did the Russian 2-class cruisers do any harm to Japanese ships? It is extremely difficult to answer this question: the author has to admit that he has not studied enough the history of the Tsushima battle to make any reasonable assumptions on this matter. But Nissin and Kasuga received at least 5 hits of projectiles of unknown caliber, one of which could easily “fly” from Pearl when it went to the left side of the squadron, thus being between two fires. In addition, Russian shells hit the armored cruisers. The author managed to find information about two hits of 120-mm projectiles, one of which hit Akashi, and the second - to Tsushima. Strangely enough, the commander's premises suffered on both cruisers, and 7 people were killed on Akashi (one at once, and another six died of wounds) and two were injured, and on Tsushima only two were wounded. But this success cannot be unequivocally attributed to the Pearl or Emerald gunners, since 120-mm guns were also installed on the armored cruisers Vladimir Monomakh and Dmitry Donskoy, who also fought with the Japanese cruisers at the time of receiving their respective hits. It is also possible to get into some other Japanese ships, because in many cases we do not know either the time of the hit, or the exact caliber of the projectile.

With this, the author finishes the description of the 14 May Day battle of 1905, and will continue to consider further the events of the night on May 15 and subsequent events.

Продолжение следует ...
Author:
Articles from this series:
Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. Pearls and Emerald
Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". Design features
Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". About the quality of construction
Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". Libava - Madagascar
Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". Madagascar - Tsushima
Why ZP Rozhdestvensky did not use the cruiser "Pearl" and "Emerald" in Tsushima for the intended purpose?
Tsushima battle. What did Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, dividing the forces into two columns?
About the tactical advantage of speed in a naval battle, or Two knots for "crossing T"
Tsushima The main forces join the battle
Tsushima battle. "Pearls" in battle
266 comments
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  1. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 14 July 2019 11: 04 New
    +6
    Good day, Andrey!

    Thanks for the article, never before has the picture of the participation of “pebbles” in Tsushima been drawn even with my strokes.

    Therefore, I will ask a natural question:
    - how exactly can it be that the cruiser stopped to save people could not pull at least one person by the thrown end

    And another thought creeps in:
    That is, the cruisers, first of all, Enquist, who, in the face of clearly superior enemy forces, repelled themselves and defended the transports, is the only detachment that managed to complete its mission that day? that is, the cruisers, especially Enquist, were the best on both fleets that day?

    If that, I'm sorry, I'm not a great specialist in Tsushima
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      14 July 2019 12: 10 New
      +5
      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
      - how exactly can it be that the cruiser stopped to save people could not pull at least one person by the thrown end

      Distance. As far as one can judge from the descriptions, by the time of the approach of Emerald to Alexander, the surviving members of his crew were at that time on the armadillo itself (crossed overboard on the bottom when the ship was turning over) or were in the water in close proximity to the ship. To come to such a distance that it was possible to save “ends” was, I think, impossible.
      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
      And another thought creeps in:
      That is, the cruisers, especially Enquist, who, in the face of clearly superior enemy forces, fought off themselves and defended the transports, is the only detachment that managed to complete its mission that day?

      Actually - yes, in my opinion the way it is. As for me, they didn’t make a national hero of Enquist for two reasons - the complete defeat of the squadron did not favor honoring, and Enquist nevertheless left the squadron and retreated to Manila, thereby violating the orders he received. And this, generally speaking, is very bad. But on the other hand, with this he saved the 3 cruiser for Russia.
      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
      Thanks for the article, never before has the picture of the participation of “pebbles” in Tsushima been drawn even with my strokes.

      That is precisely why I took on them :)))) The overwhelming majority of people, who even knew the course of the Tsushima battle quite well, didn’t get any actions of the “pebbles” in their memory, primarily because the most common sources very briefly describe their actions in Tsushima . I, in order to somehow restore their actions, had a good time sitting with reports. hi
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 14 July 2019 16: 55 New
        +3
        Andrey, thanks to you I learned a lot of new ORYAW. You do not know: how many people from "Alexander 3" were saved? More than 20 years ago, somewhere I read or heard that during the Tsushima battle, very few drowning people were saved. Is it so?
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          14 July 2019 17: 02 New
          +4
          Quote: vladcub
          You do not know: how many people from "Alexander 3" were saved?

          Svyatoslav, sadly forced to report that not a single person was saved from the squadron battleship "Emperor Alexander III". This, without a doubt, heroic ship died with the whole crew soldier
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 14 July 2019 17: 15 New
            0
            In general, during Tsushima, many drowning people were saved?
            1. Comrade
              Comrade 14 July 2019 21: 21 New
              +6
              Quote: vladcub
              In general, during Tsushima, many drowning people were saved?

              One with the "Borodino" saved the Japanese
              with "Oslyaby" 418 saved our
              two from "Navarina" saved by the British, one more - the Japanese
              with "Admiral Ushakov" 338 saved the Japanese
              from "Svetlana" 297 saved the Japanese
              with "Russia" 41 saved our
              from the "Loud" 45 saved the Japanese.

              In other cases, they rescued themselves, on boats moving to their own or Japanese ships, as well as ashore.
              1. vladcub
                vladcub 15 July 2019 13: 12 New
                +3
                Thanks for your information. It is more pleasant to read such comments than those where every second yells: I am smart, and you
    2. Senior seaman
      Senior seaman 14 July 2019 12: 30 New
      +4
      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
      Therefore, I will ask a natural question:
      - how exactly can it be that the cruiser stopped to save people could not pull at least one person by the thrown end

      And often did you hear about this?
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        14 July 2019 14: 10 New
        +3
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        And often did you hear about this?

        Strictly speaking, something like that is remembered in WWII - there were some cases when drowning nets were caught from the cruiser on the go ... Yes, it seems that they also caught survivors from Bismarck, throwing their ends into the water. That is theoretically possible, but in practice, I will not mention something like this
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 14 July 2019 14: 13 New
          +4
          You need to go through the jewelry near the drowning man and catch it the first time, otherwise it will be pulled under the screws.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            14 July 2019 14: 29 New
            +4
            It can be assumed that there is still a running question - yet the WWII ships' EC is not at all what the RNE, perhaps due to the ability to change the running mode on the WWW ship faster, it was easier to approach the drowning ones than in the RNV. But this is only speculation, of course. hi
        2. Comrade
          Comrade 14 July 2019 21: 48 New
          +2
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          something like that is recalled in WWII - there were some cases when people drowned drowning nets from the cruiser on the go ... Yes, they also caught those who survived from Bismarck, throwing their ends into the water. That is theoretically possible, but in practice, I will not mention something like this

          Because this did not happen, both our cruisers and the Japanese lowered boats, like the Bayan near Port Arthur, for example.
        3. DimerVladimer
          DimerVladimer 15 July 2019 13: 01 New
          +3
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Strictly speaking, something like that is remembered in WWII - there were some cases when drowning nets were caught from the cruiser on the go ... Yes, it seems that they also caught survivors from Bismarck, throwing their ends into the water. That is theoretically possible, but in practice, I will not mention something like this


          Impossible on the go - for this, the speed should be less than 5 knots. And at the end, a non-protracted loop, otherwise it will not hold.
          In this case, it is necessary to take into account the wind and inertia of the ship, so as not to sink people.
          A decrease in speed is necessary in order not to overwhelm a wave of a sinking

          Even rescue from a boat is dedicated to 4-5 different approach techniques, depending on course and wind.

          7. When lifting the victim to a high-sided vessel or, if necessary, towing him to the shore by water, it is advisable to tie the person to be saved at the chest level with a rope using the gazebo. The use of a noose or other tightening knot is unacceptable.
        4. mmaxx
          mmaxx 15 July 2019 18: 25 New
          0
          Yes, sort of from Bismarck and saved by nets. Photos are there. And the problem was that the fuel oil spilled and it was impossible to hold onto them. That is, if it was, then it is extremely small.
      2. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 14 July 2019 16: 48 New
        +1
        And often did you hear about this?


        "Kolomeitsev, standing on the bridge, commanded in a sharp voice:
        - The whaleboat to lower! Prepare the ends for salvation!
        His officers and sailors knew what to do, and an energetic, without fuss, work began. Around, in the waves, under the shelling of the enemy, many lives were lost. The destroyer screamed for salvation. Over and over the ends were thrown, for which the hands of the drowning frantically clutched. And distant oslabtsy picked up the only whaleboat with two rowers, cleverly controlled by the warrant officer Khrabro-Vasilevsky. "
        1. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 14 July 2019 17: 26 New
          +5
          Now re-read carefully.
          On the destroyer came the cries of salvation.

          Nevoks have a displacement of 10 times less than that of a cruiser (well, almost :)))). And maneuverability is the other way around, and even Kolomeytsev was very at risk.
          In general, drowning people with the help of the end are saved either in films, or this drowning person fell out of his ship. Well, at what distance from the side personally can you throw the end?
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 14 July 2019 19: 00 New
            +3
            Yes, I understand that, because I wrote:

            how exactly can it be that stopped to save people, the cruiser could not pull at least one person by the thrown end


            they want to live - they will swim when necessary, I apologize for cynicism

            in addition, as I understand it, the pull-out method (correctly, of course, tie the lifebuoy, if any) is standard in all cases when it is impossible or inexpedient to lower the boat: well, for example, it is not on the yacht, or it is stormy, or no time in battle, etc.
            1. AK64
              AK64 14 July 2019 22: 33 New
              0
              Oh my God....
              / and grabbed his head /
            2. Comrade
              Comrade 15 July 2019 04: 31 New
              +1
              Quote: Andrei Shmelev
              they want to live - they will swim when necessary, I apologize for cynicism

              The wave height of 14 on May 1905 in the Tsushima Strait ranged from 1,2 to 1,8 meters. This is how the situation is described in the “Description of military operations at sea”
              Question: What reason do you have to say that if a person wants to live, he will be able to swim against one and a half meter waves where it is difficult for the destroyer?
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 07: 18 New
                +1
                will be able to swim против one and a half meter waves where it is difficult for the destroyer?


                answer: what reason do you have to say that the commander of the rescue ship is so stupid that he doesn’t know that he needs to get up so that a man swims in the wind, and not against?
                1. Comrade
                  Comrade 16 July 2019 01: 45 New
                  0
                  Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                  what reason do you have to say that the commander of the rescue ship is so stupid that he does not know that he needs to get up so that a man swims in the wind, and not against?

                  To my question, dear colleague, you answered with a question from which your humble servant concludes that you have nothing to answer.
                  And this is understandable, because the waves were so strong that, as the commander of the destroyer "Brave" Lieutenant P. P. Durnovo indicated in his report, not only people, even
                  Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                  wanting to live

                  but even a whaleboat.

                  The situation was aggravated by the rescued, clutching the oars. The destroyer had to go to the whaleboat.
                  Thus, we conclude that on board the torpedo boat, grabbing at the end, those who were near the torpedo boat could climb, but sailing to the torpedo boat in those conditions was unrealistic.
                  The Japanese destroyers passed, and the Russian whaleboat also saved.
                  The version that Durnovo was so dumb that it was waiting for a whaleboat from the windward side, will you offer?
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 16 July 2019 08: 46 New
                    +1
                    Dear colleague, there is no need for sophistry. It is very possible to move in the same direction with excitement, as well as at a slight angle to its direction along the way. Therefore, to deliberately adjust your course so that it carries on the cruiser, and not 20 meters past, is possible. I don’t write to swim a crawl of 500 meters at an angle of 120 to the direction of the wind.
            3. DimerVladimer
              DimerVladimer 15 July 2019 13: 08 New
              +3
              Quote: Andrei Shmelev
              Yes, I understand that, because I wrote:

              how exactly can it be that stopped to save people, the cruiser could not pull at least one person by the thrown end


              they want to live - they will swim when necessary, I apologize for cynicism

              in addition, as I understand it, the pull-out method (correctly, of course, tie the lifebuoy, if any) is standard in all cases when it is impossible or inexpedient to lower the boat: well, for example, it is not on the yacht, or it is stormy, or no time in battle, etc.


              And far you throw a life buoy ... and against the wind? - Well, about 20 meters at best.
              Whereas a ship of the cruiser type by inertia and working off the machines backward - 60 meters to a sinking minimum. In a combat situation and with a lot of drowning people, there will be chaos.
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 14: 11 New
                0
                Well, 20 meters at best.


                surely

                60 meters to drowning minimum


                I understand, but you can reduce the distance to jewelry accurate due to a very small stroke, although it takes time

                there will be chaos


                "a la guerre comme a la guerre"
                (I apologize for the lack of axans)

                because again:

                they want to live - they will swim when necessary, I apologize for cynicism
              2. mmaxx
                mmaxx 15 July 2019 18: 34 New
                +2
                To pull a person with the end, there must be a loop on it (the end). A loop is thrown over the chest under the shoulders. You can stand on the loop with your foot. But people need to be taught this. And in cold water, a person may not have enough strength to stay even in the loop. Hoping for a person’s desire to live is not worth it. You can’t stretch much in cold water. And further. If there is wind, and the ship blows, a man in clothes will never catch up with him. And even without clothes, not everyone will do it. So here is the lottery.
                “Dorsetshire” in a fight with “Bismarck” drove into a bunch of people and therefore saved a lot. And the destroyers saved the slavers in such a way.
                1. Andrey Shmelev
                  Andrey Shmelev 16 July 2019 22: 03 New
                  0
                  almost completely agree with everything, except for one, this person, if he has, for example, a canvas berth, not to mention a life buoy, can very quickly move with passing waves
  2. PPD
    PPD 14 July 2019 11: 15 New
    +6
    Neither times nor the enemy choose, of course ...,
    but summing up the application in our fleet it turns out these ships were built in vain.
    As the scouts did not use them (well, apart from Novik, it can be debatable), butting yourself, unlike Oleg and Aurora,
    with enemy cruisers they cannot. And to make of them, because of the impossibility of more, repetitive vessels — excessive squandering — and destroyers can do this. And given that in the reconnaissance unit
    2 yachts went with them (one of which, a little later in the reconnaissance Geben sketched, and after re-equipment it had 6-120mm), and it turns out that there is no practical difference between them and the yachts.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      14 July 2019 12: 13 New
      +4
      Quote: PPD
      but summing up the application in our fleet it turns out these ships were built in vain.

      In general, I came to almost the same conclusions in a series of articles about Novik
    2. AK64
      AK64 14 July 2019 12: 25 New
      0
      but summing up the application in our fleet it turns out these ships were built in vain.

      They were used incorrectly: their optimal role is destroyer leaders, to give combat stability. Well, destroyers of the same.
      But before the war, such an idea did not occur. The same application that was planned (near squadron reconnaissance) turned out to be completely unclaimed and even simply unnecessary.

      As the scouts did not use them (well, apart from Novik, it can be debatable), butting yourself, unlike Oleg and Aurora,

      So Aurora is an unnecessary ship too: money down the drain

      it turns out that there is no practical difference between them and the yachts.

      Well, yes.
      Their value would be - destroyer leaders. In this role, they would show themselves perfectly. (in fact, Novik showed himself in this role)
      It’s just that at that time the tactics of the actions of squadrons were not yet drawn in detail. That theorized how they could.
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        14 July 2019 13: 00 New
        +4
        Quote: AK64
        They were used incorrectly: their optimal role is destroyer leaders, to give combat stability.

        Novik was used, but he did not take place in this role. Because the Japanese used their armored cruisers for the same, which he could not resist on equal terms. That is, he coped with his duties only if the enemy cruiser was not nearby.
        Quote: AK64
        Well, destroyers of the same.

        This was also impossible for him, due to the fact that the Japanese destroyers were much faster in speed - Novik could never catch them.
        Quote: AK64
        So Aurora is an unnecessary ship too: money down the drain

        Unsuccessful - yes, but unnecessary?
        1. AK64
          AK64 14 July 2019 15: 02 New
          -1
          Novik was used, but he did not take place in this role. Because the Japanese used their armored cruisers for the same, which he could not resist on equal terms. That is, he coped with his duties only if the enemy cruiser was not nearby.

          Armored decks are slower (i.e. destroyers linked) and more expensive.
          Just Japanese armored decks even more unnecessary boats.

          This was also impossible for him, due to the fact that the Japanese destroyers were much faster in speed - Novik could never catch them.

          Well, here .... how they did --- they did it.

          Unsuccessful - yes, but unnecessary?

          Colonial cruiser? In a country without colonies?
          And indeed, as inpatients (what else was it good for?) It would be better to use outdated ships.
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            14 July 2019 16: 38 New
            +2
            Quote: AK64
            Armored decks are slower (i.e. destroyers linked) and more expensive.

            Quite the contrary - the same Tsushima is clearly cheaper than Novik, but as for linking ... no, not linking, since the destroyers acted independently but could always retreat to the cruiser
            Quote: AK64
            Just Japanese armored decks even more unnecessary boats.

            Quite the contrary - the history of the NRF proves their archaism and archinviability. They were literally irreplaceable for Togo.
            Quote: AK64
            Well, here .... how they did --- they did it.

            So for the speed of Novik, the Germans had to literally jump out of their pants. But for the 30-nodal cruiser they categorically refused to undertake
            Quote: AK64
            Colonial cruiser? In a country without colonies?

            In fact, it was intended to fight on ocean communications. Colonial cruiser is another
            1. AK64
              AK64 14 July 2019 17: 04 New
              0
              Quite the contrary - the same Tsushima is clearly cheaper than Novik, but as for linking ... no, not linking, since the destroyers acted independently but could always retreat to the cruiser

              Apparently, we differently understand the use of leaders.
              This Tsushima would have to defend the destroyers on a normal cruiser.

              Quite the contrary - the history of the NRF proves their archaism and archinviability. They were literally irreplaceable for Togo.

              OK
              Just too lazy to argue.

              In fact, it was intended to fight on ocean communications. Colonial cruiser is another

              In fact, it turned out just the colonial cruiser. Well, what “communications” with a range of less than 4000 miles and a passport of 19 knots? This is "neither steal nor guard."
              Well, actually, as far as I can tell, they initially wanted to build a "long-range reconnaissance" --- but the maximum was a "guard" --- i.e. "water area protection".
              To fight on communications - this is Stormbreaker-Russia ...

              In general, "they wanted the best - but it turned out as always." But it didn’t work, it happens. the question is, why was it replicated in 3 copies?
              1. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 14 July 2019 17: 42 New
                +4
                it turned out just the colonial cruiser

                A colleague, a “colonial cruiser” is just “Nititaka” or our “Svetlana”.
                Quote: AK64
                Well, what are the “communications” with a range of less than 4000 miles and passport travel 19 nodes?

                Uh ... do not confuse what was conceived and what happened as a result.
                fuel reserves are roughly like the Telbota.
                By the way, the “Emden” autonomy is worse. And the speed in the 23 node, if you think about it, on 1914 a year is not much better than 19 ten years earlier, but would anyone say that he was a bad raider?
                Quote: AK64
                In general, "they wanted the best - but it turned out as always." But it didn’t work, it happens. the question is, why was it replicated in 3 copies?

                Uh ... and "fleet of samples" is better in your opinion?
                This, one might say, is the first attempt to build a series, and more or less successful. in the sense that the ships turned out the same :))))
                1. AK64
                  AK64 14 July 2019 18: 34 New
                  +1
                  A colleague, a “colonial cruiser” is just “Nititaka” or our “Svetlana”.

                  but what goddesses were fit except for how?

                  Uh ... do not confuse what was conceived and what happened as a result.

                  I’m talking about exactly what happened.
                  It turned out extremely badly --- and even surprisingly to me why so?

                  By the way, the “Emden” autonomy is worse. And the speed in the 23 node, if you think about it, on 1914 a year is not much better than 19 ten years earlier, but would anyone say that he was a bad raider?

                  Emden - 3 thousandth. And the goddess - 7 thousand tons (well, almost).
                  Well, the miller (Müller = miller) was a "good raider": there are people who will show themselves at the whaleboat. And if you give them a whole cruiser (albeit poor) ....

                  Uh ... and "fleet of samples" is better in your opinion?
                  This, one might say, is the first attempt to build a series, and more or less successful. in the sense that the ships turned out the same :))))

                  Replicating a deliberately bad thing?
                  Here is Russia .... It is also visible that the cruiser! (Though an acquisition of essentially dubious value as well) But why did such a puncture come out with the goddesses?
              2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                14 July 2019 18: 27 New
                +2
                Quote: AK64
                Apparently, we differently understand the use of leaders.

                It is obvious. But the use of Novik does not fit into any reasonable concept of such leadership. By the way, let me draw your attention to the fact that after the WWI, the world came to the conclusion that for a successful leadership, an EM leader must be faster than an EM.
                Quote: AK64
                This Tsushima would have to defend the destroyers on a normal cruiser.

                For this, the Japanese had armored cruisers. In general, their system worked perfectly. If the destroyers run into a cruiser, they retreat, and he cannot catch them. If this cruiser is Novik, the Japanese armored deck deals with it. If - Askold, he will meet with 3-4 armored decks, because the Japanese went in combat units or an armored cruiser. And what about us?
                Novik could support his destroyers, but how? Only if they went to him under protection, and only from destroyers, and the latter he can only drive away, but not overtake and destroy. How does this differ from the same "Tsushima"? Yes, nothing. Another question is that “Novik” is more convenient to run away if suddenly surpassing enemy forces. But in conditions when the visibility of 8-10 is miles, and the effective shooting distance is from the strength of the 3-4 mile, and Tsushima will have time to retreat to the cover forces.
                Quote: AK64
                OK
                Just too lazy to argue.

                Well, okay, I bet someday later :)))))
                Quote: AK64
                In fact, it turned out just the colonial cruiser. Well, what are the “communications” with a range of less than 4000 miles and passport travel 19 nodes?

                You are very well answered dear senior sailor. hi
                1. AK64
                  AK64 14 July 2019 18: 39 New
                  -1
                  \ sighing \
                  You, Andrei, are very stubborn and stubborn. And therefore, I simply will not argue with you. Laziness.
                  It’s just that Tsushima is no leader at all, and in general .... from her 20 knots of the passport pass for such a cruiser --- she could not have escaped from the normal 6-thousand-thousander — what kind of “leader” is there? But Novik in this role, in the event of a clash of light forces, instantly shifted the scales in his favor.
                  1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                    14 July 2019 19: 13 New
                    +2
                    Quote: AK64
                    Just Tsushima is no leader

                    Of course. But she coped with ensuring the actions of her Minonsons, not being a leader.
                    Quote: AK64
                    with her 20 passport-handling units for such a cruiser --- she could not have escaped from the normal 6-thousandth

                    Of course I couldn’t. But the combination “armored cruiser + weak armored deck” in this case worked better than our “newbie + 6 thousandth armored deck” despite the fact that both solutions are comparable in price. Tsushima is not alone in war, she is also covered
                    Quote: AK64
                    But Novik in this role, in the event of a clash of light forces, instantly shifted the scales in his favor.

                    Like Tsushima. If our destroyers met enemy + Tsushima - superiority is on the side of the Japanese, but our destroyers could escape from the Japanese cruiser. If the Japanese destroyers met our destroyers + Novik, superiority is on our side, but the Japanese could escape from Novik.
                    1. vladcub
                      vladcub 15 July 2019 12: 59 New
                      +2
                      Coordination and, once again, a combination of actions is what distinguished the Japanese.
                      Andrei, when I read your comments, I remembered the hockey team: if players understand one another from one another, this is the key to success
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                    1. Comrade
                      Comrade 14 July 2019 21: 53 New
                      +5
                      Quote: fgkj
                      Novik was a small ship (class 2 cruiser) of protection of the near water region.

                      Kolya, are you?
                      1. Rurikovich
                        Rurikovich 14 July 2019 22: 06 New
                        +4
                        Quote: Comrade
                        Kolya, are you?

                        He is laughing yes
                        After all, such
                        The second-class EDB (reconnaissance in battle) and the advice notes (conventional reconnaissance) engaged in close reconnaissance at squadrons. Retired raiders were engaged in long-range reconnaissance at squadrons.
                        Ships of the water area (scouts) were not involved in reconnaissance at squadrons. To do this, they simply did not have a margin of autonomy. He was engaged in reconnaissance of the water area adjacent to VM BASES

                        pearls are already becoming a legend! laughing drinks hi
                    2. Andrey Shmelev
                      Andrey Shmelev 14 July 2019 22: 47 New
                      0
                      I understand the disagreement with "Nikolai, who passed by," but he, in my opinion, did not deserve such a number of minuses and ban, as a number of things say very reasonably

                      I don’t know what happened there, but, IMHO, I can name a lot of characters who are much more deserving, in my humble opinion, of ostracism
                      1. arturpraetor
                        arturpraetor 14 July 2019 22: 49 New
                        +3
                        For all his 41 (from those that I was able to calculate), Nicholai’s visit to the site completely deserved a life ban with a ban on restoration, because for you this may be a new phenomenon, and we have been observing it for years and not all songs one and the same, and all with colossal arrogance and categoricalness. Zadolbalo, you know. The site administration, apparently, has the same opinion.
                      2. AK64
                        AK64 14 July 2019 23: 29 New
                        +4
                        you see, what’s the matter --- one of you “sickened”, someone else else. I told a group of teenagers that "nobody was going to give the straits (and 1917) to Russia" - so these schoolchildren ran after me on all topics and minus the whole crowd --- apparently I "got sick of them."
                        (By the way, what is so blasphemous in the obvious fact that no one would pass the straits to Russia voluntarily?)
                        It is necessary to be tolerant. Freedom of speech is either for everyone --- or for no one. And when "some animals are more equal than others" --- then this is a pigsty and not a forum ..
                      3. arturpraetor
                        arturpraetor 14 July 2019 23: 34 New
                        +3
                        Quote: AK64
                        Freedom of speech is either for everyone --- or for anyone

                        Rules too. And Nikolay regularly violates them, provoking srachi and regularly rolling into trolling, if not banned in time. Defend your point of view without him - no question, no one would have banned him and would not respond so negatively, but in the case of him there are only two options - or you disagree with him, and he starts to rude and troll you, or Praise and agree with him in absolutely everything, and then he changes his tone for patronizing, considering himself a genius. Is it necessary for someone? The last time I tried with him on the topic of logistics and supply of coal by land to Constantinople from Zonguldak in the PRC was to talk, in a normal way, but everything quickly slipped into srach, because I dared not agree with him that it was easier than ever, but in response got rude and trolling. Is this a constructive dialogue? No, if you want this - then please, but I, and many colleagues, and what is important - the site administration does not agree with your point of view.
                      4. Rurikovich
                        Rurikovich 15 July 2019 06: 33 New
                        +1
                        Quote: AK64
                        It is necessary to be tolerant. Freedom of speech is either for everyone --- or for no one. And when "some animals are more equal than others" --- then this is a pigsty and not a forum ..

                        It is understandable. Everyone can speak out as he sees fit. And everyone has their own opinion on this or that “character”, for example, on this site.
                        The aforementioned character is constantly reincarnating under various alphanumeric meaningless nicknames, but this does not prevent regular visitors from recognizing him by the style of speech and the semantic load of his comments. Which, of course, carry his personal point of view on some things in the development of the Navy. The obstinacy with which this comrade conveys to his people his only correct point of view causes a smile to colic in the stomach, therefore, according to the same rules of the site, there are minuses for invariability and periodically the character is banned due to intolerance expressed in rudeness wink As dear Artem said, it’s really embarrassing to listen to the same song about retired raiders hi
                  3. Comrade
                    Comrade 14 July 2019 23: 13 New
                    0
                    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                    I understand the disagreement with "Nikolai, who passed by," but he didn’t deserve such a number of minuses and ban,

                    The troll must sit in the bath.
                  4. AK64
                    AK64 14 July 2019 23: 24 New
                    +4
                    Why is the "troll"? The purpose of the troll is hype without meaning.
                    In the end, even the devil must have a lawyer (By the way, this argument was given to your humble servant on the same occasion --- 25 years ago)
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. arturpraetor
                  arturpraetor 14 July 2019 23: 51 New
                  0
                  Oh, 42 went to the list laughing
        2. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 14 July 2019 19: 14 New
          +1
          After the WWI, the world came to the conclusion that for a successful leadership, an EM leader must be faster than an EM.


          during WWII, super-destroyer leaders have never really led anyone)
          Well, I would not say that everything is much better, of course, cruisers
        3. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 14 July 2019 19: 28 New
          +1
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          In general, their system worked perfectly.

          You know, colleague, I have a feeling that under our spitz we just forgot about armored cruisers. And so, it seems, everything is not so bad.
          Noviks and clones can drive enemy destroyers, leading their own (taking into account the real speed of the Nevoks, the question is who is faster). “Sixty thousandths” and “Bayan” cover “dogs” like a bull sheep (it would be better, of course, simply “Bayan” were instead of all these ...), but they somehow forgot about the large armored cruiser capable of driving “Asamoids” or did not find it necessary. Something like "Relight", but with a full belt and a couple of knots faster (somewhere I saw it :))))
          1. Saxahorse
            Saxahorse 14 July 2019 20: 16 New
            +1
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            “Sixty thousandths” and “Bayan” cover “dogs” like a bull’s sheep (it would be better, of course, simply “Bayans” were instead of all these ...), but they somehow forgot about the large armored cruiser capable of driving “Asamoids” or did not find it necessary.

            In this sense, I like Nissin and Kasuga. Ships are only a little larger than Aurora, but more than ten times more useful. And at a price almost the same. Very vain they were not bought in 1902.
            1. AK64
              AK64 14 July 2019 21: 01 New
              +1
              In this sense, I like Nissin and Kasuga. Ships are only a little larger than Aurora, but more than ten times more useful. And at a price almost the same. Very vain they were not bought in 1902.

              Which, in general, characterizes you exhaustively. (Do not be offended, but it is a fact)
              You are not comparing the product - you are comparing the numbers in the tablets.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 14 July 2019 21: 12 New
            0
            about a large armored cruiser capable of driving "asamoids"


            we’ll be logical and consistent: we’ll also ask for a large armored armadillo capable of driving “sikisimoids” fellow
            1. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 14 July 2019 21: 27 New
              +2
              Quote: Andrei Shmelev
              large armadillo armadillo

              Already built. "Andrew the First-Called" and "Paul I"
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 14 July 2019 21: 51 New
                +1
                but in February 1904 funds were already allocated
                on 2 the battleship of the Satsuma type 4-305, 12-254
                and 4 armored cruisers of the Tsukuba class)

                I meant something else - good for you:
                destroyers - Novikom,
                little dog - "Hero"
                Asamoids - "Rurik 2"
                sikisimoidov - "Andrew the First-Called"
                and if the same money?
              2. Senior seaman
                Senior seaman 15 July 2019 12: 03 New
                0
                The second "Rurik", nevertheless, began to be designed in the course of the REV. But “Andreev” began to develop seriously before. That is, an understanding of the need was, albeit belated.
              3. Comrade
                Comrade 16 July 2019 02: 28 New
                0
                Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                funds were already allocated in February 1904
                on 2 the battleship of the Satsuma type 4-305, 12-254
                and 4 Tsukuba armored cruisers

                May I ask where this infa comes from?
                Here are the official data (in rubles) on the sea budgets of the world's leading fleets, the costs of the "New Shipbuilding" of the Japanese fleet there in a red frame.

                Perhaps the allocated 5 700 000,00 rubles for one light cruiser should be enough.
              4. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 16 July 2019 09: 10 New
                +1
                I’m writing from a business trip from memory: I’ll return and see, offhand I will answer all these ships were planned by the third Fleet Act of 1903, included in the Japanese budget for fiscal year 1905 in February 1904 with an update in May 1904, do you not know that the Japanese allocated funds, as a rule, from the first future budget period, which the 1905 budget was then. Further, in connection with the war, financing 2 went to the budget of 1906, and 2 more to the budget of 1907. The Japanese design the armadillos with 305 mm single-caliber artillery was still in 1903, however, then it was decided to use 254 mm, the decision to equip the brkr 305 mm guns adopted in the second half of 1904.
          4. AK64
            AK64 14 July 2019 22: 43 New
            +3
            Honestly speaking, there is absolutely nothing to chase asamoids for --- it’s such “wealth” that hits the economy of the country containing them more than it hits the enemy. Either "armadillos of the 3rd class", or "cruisers for the protection of super-close communications." Absolutely conceptually mediocre project. Despite the fact that the price is almost an armadillo (well, well, let it be 2 for 3, although it’s probably more expensive there).
          5. Catfish
            Catfish 14 July 2019 23: 48 New
            +1
            Either "armadillos of the 3rd class", or "cruisers for the protection of super-close communications." Totally conceptual


            "Nedolinkory", or "Battleships for the poor," as it seems classified the Japanese armored cruisers A. Patients?
          6. AK64
            AK64 15 July 2019 01: 45 New
            +2
            "Nedolinkory", or "Battleships for the poor," as it seems classified the Japanese armored cruisers A. Patients?

            So this was all built for the "third countries" --- Chile, Argentina, .... Well, the Japanese also bought it.
            Purely commercial project "expensive toys for the natives"
          7. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 07: 48 New
            +1
            "armadillos of the 3rd class"


            Yes, it happened.

            But the very idea of ​​their creation was very tempting (+3 speed knots from promising and +5 speed knots from existing battleships)
            However, for proper implementation, it was necessary to increase the displacement to 12 tons and get a squadron version of the fact that the BrKr Kressi stanket: lower side, less coal, more armor and guns

            Threat. And the Asuroid Racer 2, then what?
          8. Catfish
            Catfish 15 July 2019 13: 19 New
            +1
            Quite right, however, these "natives" and us have fooled.
          9. AK64
            AK64 15 July 2019 14: 12 New
            +1
            Quite right, however, these "natives" and us have fooled.

            Yes, not "fucked up."
            They merged terrifyingly - winning all the battles. The economy was bursting at the seams. Russia could simply remain in the war without doing anything --- Japan itself would go bankrupt.

            The Japanese method is cormorant. The battle method is this. How can an alcoholic gopnik defeat a master of sports in boxing? And come quietly, distract the conversation - and sharpening in the kidney. And then kicking, kicking, kicking .... This method of combat is called cormorant, or scientifically --- "blitzkrieg"
            But if the boxer doesn’t fall right away, if he stands, then the gopnik will end.
            So Russia has resisted. A year and a half of war for Russia --- they just warmed up. They only gathered a group of 600 thousand. The boxer stood and would have killed the gop with one blow.

            So the British agent had to save Japan --- completely betraying himself.
          10. Catfish
            Catfish 15 July 2019 19: 59 New
            0
            Russia could simply remain in the war without doing anything --- Japan itself would go bankrupt.


            Could, could not ... What was - was, and the Tsushima disgrace has not gone away. Stalin correctly said after the defeat of the Kwantung Army that "Tsushima avenged with the toric". But we will not speak for the whole Japanese army and its fleet right now?
  3. The comment was deleted.
  4. AK64
    AK64 15 July 2019 01: 37 New
    +1
    Nicholas,
    Elsvikskie cruisers could not "protect" anything from anyone. At least for the lack of seaworthiness, and speed too. In the ocean, they would simply not be able to shoot.
    While the price of them ....

    That is precisely why the British themselves did not need such kindness and nafig: they built exclusively for the natives, s.

    Garibaldians .... A typical Italian super-tight over-compressed project, with a slurred concept, for the Mediterranean Sea (with an interference fit). They never confirmed the data indicated in the passport - and therefore the Japanese put them in the 1st combat detachment (they did not give the declared speed).

    (By the way, this is one of the reasons why the Russians were not eager to buy these "treasures")
  5. 27091965
    27091965 15 July 2019 07: 34 New
    +4
    Quote: AK64
    Garibaldians .... A typical Italian super-tight over-compressed project, with a slurred concept, for the Mediterranean Sea (with an interference fit). They never confirmed the data indicated in the passport - and therefore the Japanese put them in the 1st combat detachment (they did not give the declared speed).


    "..... due to financial pressure, the construction of battleships was practically suspended. Therefore, the Italian naval authorities were forced to proceed to the construction of cruisers, protected and armed so that, if necessary, they could act with armadillos and take part in the battles of the fleet. Carlo Alberto and Garibaldi are representatives of this type,..... "N. Soliani, 1896

    " The Garibaldi cruiser is, in my opinion, an exceptionally well-designed ship, the inspection of this ship confirmed my opinion that the time had come when it became necessary to create cruisers for the fleet, which should be able to take part in the battles of the fleet as additions to armadillos. Until now, the generally accepted concept was that modern cruisers comply with and assume the responsibilities of frigates who previously served in the fleets. But, while frigates in the old days did not take part in battleship battles, with rare exceptions, in modern conditions, there seems to be absolutely no reason why cruisers should stay away from the battle if they are designed and built in the image of the cruiser Garibaldi."W. White is a British shipbuilder who from 1886 to 1903 served as chief builder of the fleet .1896
  6. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 09: 00 New
    +1
    if they are designed and built in the image of the cruiser Garibaldi. "


    Good morning, dear colleague! "in the image" - does not mean that they are)
    at least, as I understand it, Cressi and Drake were completely different ships, a kind of hybrid of the ideas of Powerful and Diadem, but with the addition of an armor belt (which was more logical to peek at the Rurik - Russia series) - "Stormbreaker")

    Threat. Sir William reminded Messi a bit with chips and Pepsi - I don’t think Messi is the main diet
  7. 27091965
    27091965 15 July 2019 10: 21 New
    +3
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    Good morning, dear colleague! "in the image" does not mean that they


    "........that the time came when it became necessary to create cruisers for the fleet, which should be able to take part in the battles of the fleet as an addition to the battleships....... "

    Copy was not required, the idea itself is important.
  8. AK64
    AK64 15 July 2019 11: 22 New
    +1
    Practice. which is the only criterion of truth, showed that this is still a rather dangerous error.
    In the end, it all came down to the battlecruisers (expensive, but still unable to fight LK on an equal footing), who later and safely cheated.

    And to put the Garibaldians in line .... At their price somewhere "3 for 2 Lux", they would not be able to cope in real and three with one LC of the same year of production: simply their 8-inch buns for LC would be a complete trifle . But the response 12 "plush could drown with one tablet.
  9. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 15 July 2019 12: 09 New
    +1
    Quote: AK64
    At their price somewhere "3 for 2 LC"

    Hmm ... sclerosis tells me that Vickers paid 780 thousand pounds for Mikas. and for the Garibaldians Ansaldo on 750 thousand ... so ....
  10. AK64
    AK64 15 July 2019 12: 24 New
    0
    I immediately with a margin. for example, under the program 1904-14 in Russia for 4 cruisers (of all types) - 44 lemons, and for 16 battleships - 258. The price ratio is somewhere around 3 for 2, approximately. But there are ALL cruisers, including thunderbolts
  11. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 14: 15 New
    +1
    I heard about these numbers, but even me doubts gnaw about the fact that this is the full cost of “Mikas” - where can it be much cheaper than “Drake” and comparable to “Kent”?
  12. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 15 July 2019 15: 30 New
    +2
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    doubts gnaw

    Me a sinful thing too :)))
    Options.
    1) The Vickers price is indicated without armament (which is possible since the concern began to make guns a bit later)
    2) The Britons provided the japam really ... a very good discount, but the Italians, essno, did not run anywhere, and they took it to the full.
    In general, a colleague Arthur Praetor at one time dug statistics, but long ago ...
  13. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 15: 56 New
    0
    I also once made price selections, I didn’t find Mikas, but I remember that for their needs the Britons crossed the million pound border for a finished battleship in the 19th century, I’ll return from a business trip - I’ll dig
  14. arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 15 July 2019 15: 56 New
    +2
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    In general, a colleague Arthur Praetor at one time dug statistics, but long ago ...

    In general, with the cost of Japanese ships, the story is rather muddy - as with many others. But, according to the information that I found (including thanks to a colleague countryman / mate), the figure was about the following, in pounds sterling:
    - "Mikasa". Somewhere in the 900 thousands without weapons, and maybearmor. The total cost is about 1,7 million pounds, but I’ve taken this figure from such a muddy source that it may be erroneous. Moreover, if it is correct, then the British sold the ship to the Japanese at an exorbitant price - even the “Lord Nelson” did not cost that much, which is unlikely, since they made quite a good discount for the Japanese for regular orders of ships from them.
    - "Garibaldi". Well, everything is simple - 750-750 thousand pounds with weapons.
    - "Asama". 879 thousand pounds with weapons.
    Once such a binge has gone, then I will bring the figures for the "favorites" of my colleague.
    - "Drake". 1,050 million pounds without weapons. But did you want a sho, dear editors, thought such a bad machine with a huge number of boilers would be cheap? Haha Sarochka, come here, here such naive people live ...
    - "Kent". From 700 to 900 thousand pounds per ton without weapons.
    Something like this. If you roughly calculate the Mikasa’s arsenal as the 1 / 3 price tag, you’ll get somewhere in the 1,35 million pounds for a ship, and for 2,7 million pounds you could build a Garibaldi 3 for two battleships -chut - and even 4 "Garibaldi" could be obtained. But quantity doesn’t mean quality, for where are those small Italians, and where, without a doubt, is the masterpiece of the battleship of its time? And choosing between two “Mikas” and two “Drakes” is a bit predictable choice. laughing

    PS If Arthur Praetor wrote something better, it was originally in Russian, but then I became too lazy and English-speaking ... laughing
  15. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 20: 48 New
    0
    I’m writing from the phone at the train station, from memory, if you don’t beat anything: I didn’t find anything reliable from Mikas, but I definitely believe in 1,35, Drake 996 thousand, Kent about 750, Kressi 780. Difficulty in the presence / absence of weapons in the article ammunition. I believe in Garibaldi’s price a little more than half of Mikas’s willingness, Asam’s cost is about the same as Kent’s cost, Drake is something with a freebie for my favorite toy, a little bit in the bummer, if it's without artillery.
  16. arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 15 July 2019 20: 55 New
    +1
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    Drake - something I have with a freebie on my favorite toy a little in the bummer, if it is without artillery ..

    The price tag of "Drake" and "Kent" is unequivocally without regard to armament, according to the British BrKr I took a number in some English-language edition (which I don’t remember, for a long time it was). Taking into account their composition of weapons, throw another percent of the 35-50 of the available value - and it will almost turn out that Mikasa. Sobsno, the British massively such ships and built just because they were English - that is, had a number of battleships, sufficient for war with any opponent, and even with different layouts in coalitions. Although they do not need to be SO large and expensive - we are with you, in my opinion. This has already been discussed, to demand from the huge 23 ship of a speed node, and to use the Belleville boilers - something very reminiscent of sadomasochism, and with the advancement of this business to the masses, Royal Navey coped perfectly well request
  17. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 15 July 2019 22: 02 New
    +1
    Quote: arturpraetor
    - "Garibaldi." Well, everything is simple - 750-750 thousand pounds with weapons.
    - Asama. 879 thousand pounds with weapons.

    Once this booze has gone, you can add one more.
    - "Aurora".648 thousand pounds with weapons
  18. arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 15 July 2019 22: 21 New
    +1
    Welcome to the state-owned shipyards of the Russian Empire laughing Although, for the sake of justice, it should be noted that large armor-fighters in other states were not cheap either. The sweep value of the Aurora (by the way, is more expensive than that of sisterships) is equal to that of the Germanic Victoria Louise, and a little higher than the French. With the British would compare, but it is not clear, their price tags with weapons, or without. Definitely cheap any armored fighters were only from Americans.
  19. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 15 July 2019 22: 58 New
    0
    Quote: arturpraetor
    Definitely cheap, only Americans had any armored decks

    Not sure about the Americans. As I remember with tsushima reduced prices
    The beginning of the 20th century. "Varangian" - 6500000 p. "Askold" - 5500000 p. Bogatyr - 6000000 p. Italy "Giusepe Garibaldi" - 6500000 p. "Nissin" - 7500000 p.

    Aurora in rubles right there, in the middle of 6400000 r.
  20. arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 15 July 2019 23: 15 New
    +1
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Not sure about the Americans. As I remember with tsushima reduced prices

    I was talking about "American for Americans." There, price tags per ton of displacement, on average, were less than European counterparts, although this is not a ubiquitous phenomenon. “Varyag” is a later and complex product, but it cost quite a lot for displacement tonnes (75 pounds - at the lower boundary of average global 70-90 pounds per ton of armored cruisers).
    Quote: Saxahorse
    As I remember with tsushima reduced prices

    Which, apparently, are rounded, for I have rarely seen such even numbers in reference books regarding price tags. I used more accurate numbers in the calculations. For example, I had clear prices from reference books in pounds sterling regarding "Garibaldi" and "Kasuga" / "Nissina", there the difference is literally 10 thousand pounds (750 and 760, respectively) - and according to your numbers the difference between them is about 100 thousand pounds !

    By the way, if we talk about expensive armored fighters, then boldly cite the example of “Oleg”. More expensive than the "Garibaldi" by several tens of thousands of pounds, a ton of its displacement cost more than a ton of the "Borodino". Yes, the full price tag with all 100 thousand pounds is less than that of the Asama. About the quality of construction and you know. Long live the state-owned shipyards! laughing
  21. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 15 July 2019 23: 41 New
    +1
    Quote: arturpraetor
    Which, apparently, are rounded, because I rarely met such even numbers in directories regarding price tags.

    Rounded for comparison. In the directories, prices in different currencies and even for different years. How to compare them? The exchange rate for Big Mac was not yet :)

    However, even this rounded value is enough to evaluate the effectiveness of investments in ships. It can be seen that investments in armored decks were conceptually erroneous. The task was to protect new possessions in the Far East, and ships with long range began to build, oriented more likely to cruising, sabotage war. While the prices for 6000 matches and prices for armored cruisers like Kasug or Asama are essentially the same. But the second ones can be put into a linear system if necessary and compete for supremacy in the sea, and the first alas - forever running away.
  22. arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 15 July 2019 23: 53 New
    +2
    Quote: Saxahorse
    In reference books prices in different currencies and even for different years. How to compare them?

    Use the Internet. I once found a database of the Swedish stock exchange, which gives the exchange rate of currencies on almost any date and on any currencies, with only some restrictions. However, I found it later than the price tags of the armored squadrons considered, so there might be inconsistencies.
    Quote: Saxahorse
    It can be seen that investments in armored fighters turned out to be conceptually erroneous.

    Moreover, the rate on large armored fighters was not only ours, and it did not justify everywhere — but it was here, given the traditional cost savings, that proved to be the most painful. The Japanese turned out to be smarter than many - having difficulties with finances, they were building rather mediocre armor-mounted fighters with low cost, but good mass character, and it turned out that for ships of this class such a recipe is the most necessary thing.

    As for the raider war - this is another big domestic jamb. The best raiders (albeit from the post-knowledge position) were auxiliary cruisers converted from civilian ships - yes, they are not very impressive, but they can attract a lot of mobilization, and it’s not a bad thing to lose. And in the conditions of the same economy, the large expenditures on raiders of special construction turned out to be, to put it mildly, irrational. Of course, the assistants developed here as well, but this was a consequence of copying the French strategy of a raider war, for which the Gauls had enough special ships. buildings and personnel with mobilization ships cruisers. We also had no such amount of resources and personnel. It would be better to build warships and develop the Voluntary Fleet.
  23. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 16 July 2019 00: 13 New
    +1
    Quote: arturpraetor
    I once found a database of the Swedish exchange, which gives the exchange rate of currencies for almost any date and for any currencies

    The exchange rate for a specific date does not take into account internal inflation (for 15 years) and changes in monetary policy (for example, the appearance of the gold ruble in 1897 seems to be). The Big Mac course allows you to indirectly compare the real value of the same ships for the economy. In general, it seems to me that rounding off on tsushima was done quite reasonably.

    Quote: arturpraetor
    the bet on large armored decks was not only with us, and everywhere did not materialize - but it was with us, given the traditional cost savings, that it turned out to be the most painful.

    I agree that it did not work out, but this by the way does not mean that these cruisers could not be used in the interests of the struggle for supremacy at sea. The same “goddesses” could well work as a long-range base guard. So that the Japanese with mines do not swim near Port Arthur like in their bathroom. Riders like the Bogatyr, Askold, the Varangian could well replace the Vladivostok squadron and drag out part of the heavy ships by raiding operations. And the same Russia and Gromoboy could well strengthen the main forces of the 1st Pacific Squadron. Alas ... no one really even tried to think about it. Our fleet ruined passivity in the end.
  24. arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 16 July 2019 00: 33 New
    +3
    Quote: Saxahorse
    The course Big Mac allows you to indirectly compare the real value of the same ships for the economy. In general, it seems to me that roundings on Tsushima were done quite reasonably.

    Well, I don’t know how, in my opinion, rounding is an oversimplification, especially since there are questions about the numbers themselves (Garibaldi and Nissin, for example). However, each has its own sources hi
    Quote: Saxahorse
    but this by the way does not mean that these cruisers could not be used in the interests of the struggle for dominance at sea

    By itself. Simply, this is not the most rational waste of funds, and with such "goddesses", we did not get the destroyers, the II rank cruisers, and even the battleships, which could bring more benefit in almost any scenario. Although, I confess, I’m strongly prejudiced here - I don’t like categorically large armored fenders, except as an experiment, a few pieces, but not to build them in sufficiently large quantities. But on three “goddesses” money spent as much as EMNIP on 5-6 cruisers of the “Svetlana” type, which, although not impressive by its characteristics, would be suitable for the “workhorse” and change ship much more than goddess. " Especially if “Svetka” is a bit finished. The Japanese, if anything, had similar 8 units of similar characteristics of the ships, and they did not complain that they were bad cruisers. One of them even "Novika" shot as a result.
    Quote: Saxahorse
    The same "goddesses" could well work as a long-distance guard base. So that the Japanese with mines did not swim near Port Arthur as in their own bathroom.

    EMNIP, for some time, "goddesses" and used on the outer raid to provide their patrols greater stability. It seems even turned out well.
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Skips like Bogatyr, Askold, Varyag could very well replace the Vladivostok squadron and put off some heavy ships with raiding operations.

    IMHO, the horses, like any other special cruisers. the buildings were desperately needed in Arthur, and there, too, the "eyes and ears" for the linear forces of the fleet were sorely lacking - that the destroyers and the cruisers. While our armored fenders with the proud lonely eagle “Bayan” walked alone, maximum together or three, the Japanese calmly walked with whole cruising formations and carried out the tasks assigned to them.
    Quote: Saxahorse
    And the same Russia and Gromoboy could well strengthen the main forces of the 1-th Pacific Squadron.

    I don’t think that ships with strictly artillery onboard could help something during the battle in line, except to distract enemy artillery. As far as I value the "Asamoids" as ships of the battle line, the "Rurikoids" in this role is even worse.
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Alas .. no one really even tried to think about it. Passivity of our fleet and ruined in the end.

    I do not know how appropriate the word "passivity" is here. Other words come to mind, although there were not very many options available with the available ships, and even less promising ones.
  25. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 16 July 2019 22: 22 New
    +2
    Quote: arturpraetor
    It's just that this is not the most rational waste of money, and having such “goddesses”, we didn’t receive the destroyers, rank II cruisers, or even armadillos, which could be more useful in almost any situation.

    I agree with you! And the reason for this, I think, was natural porridge in the heads of the upper classes and the lack of any kind of consistent planning. It seems that the program is also called “ships for the Far East”, and in fact, the TTX is ordered by raiders with increased autonomy. Although the task is purely local, to maintain dominance in the Yellow and Sea of ​​Japan. The Japanese quite sensibly approached the set of characteristics of their ships. And I would suggest limiting ourselves only to armored cruisers, like the same Garibaldians and armadillos. And instead of small cruisers - large destroyers of the type "Ukraine" or "Lieutenant Shestakov". They started to build them around that time.

    Quote: arturpraetor
    I do not know how appropriate the word "passivity" is here. Other words come to mind, although there were not very many options available with the available ships, and even less promising ones.

    There were enough options and with the available ships. At least the Pacific Fleet was not inferior to the Japanese in quantity. Seven battleships, but three BrKR and Oslyabyu with Sisoy remember on time .. Yes, the same Nissin and Kasuga could intercept. Moreover, RI had the opportunity to put up a second squad, the same Borodins and old men of the Baltic. But alas and ahh .. All the tricks up were consistently missed :(
  26. arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 16 July 2019 22: 55 New
    +2
    Quote: Saxahorse
    And I would suggest limiting ourselves only to armored cruisers, like the same Garibaldians and armadillos.

    IMHO, not the best option. A number of armored cruisers is still needed, you just need to soberly assess their capabilities and understand that these are not light WWII cruisers, and even not PMA, but in fact are overgrown gunners, which should be more convenient and powerful art. platform than destroyers, and on the 2-3 knot be faster than armadillos. This will provide sufficient stability to the light forces of the fleet, will give support to the same destroyers (I’m talking about support, not lead), improve the survival of our intelligence, and give a number of fairly powerful, but, in general, swap ships. Needless to say, these cruisers should not be the size of a “goddess” or 6000 cove. I occasionally think of this topic as AIshnik-shipbuilder, and if not changed "pebbles" come to mind (more displacement, less speed, more powerful artillery, in fact, analogs of the Japanese "dogs" are obtained), then somewhat increased and, maybe, more fast "Svetlana" (the concept has worked for a long time, but with the visualization does not yet add up). With this approach, the cruisers do not turn out to be expensive at all, but they become massive.

    By the way, the failure of cruisers (for a long time, essentially only BrCr-raiders, with a narrow specialization) were built - a separate topic for conversation, starting from the middle of 1880-x. Already there, it was worth starting to build at least some, but armor-fired squadrons, which could be useful in a future war (the Japanese imported their fossil imports very much, despite their modest characteristics), but alas, up to six-thousand-meters and "goddesses" of BpKr from Russia - with one hand enough to recount, plus nautical gunboats, which, like the gunboats, didn’t show themselves well, but for some reason they were forced to perform functions in peacetime in fact of the same Bccr, not being able to replace them during the wartime.
    Quote: Saxahorse
    And instead of small cruisers - the big destroyers of the type "Ukraine" or "Lieutenant Shestakov." They began about the same time to build.

    Oh, on the subject of destroyers can talk for a long time and a lot. Including about the Japanese - there are some questions for them that I haven’t found the answers to. But alas, even now I’m answering you, but I’m actually working from dawn to night, so once again I’m not really thinking about the tree. request
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Yes, the same Nissin with Kasuga could intercept.

    EMNIP could not. Right now I can be fiercely mistaken, because I didn’t particularly concentrate on the Japanese ships, but, as I recall, until the moment they were handed over to the Japanese fleet, they were escorted by British cruisers. An attack on "Kasuga" with "Nishin" would be a reason for the British to intervene in the conflict, which, to put it mildly, is not the best prospect.

    For the rest - there is something to say, but there is no time and opportunity for this. Maybe some other time hi
  27. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 16 July 2019 23: 42 New
    +1
    Quote: arturpraetor
    A certain amount of armored deck cruisers is still necessary, you just need to soberly assess their capabilities and understand that these are not light cruisers a la WWII, and not even PMV, but essentially overgrown gunboats,

    You are intrigued. :) I can’t understand why the gunboats are overgrown and not a couple of destroyers for example. The same "Lieutenant Shestakov" dragged two 120 mm guns, why would a couple of these be worse than one minicracer of 3-4 thousand tons.? Gunboats for shelling the coast, this is a separate class. They are slow and not even armored, all for the minimum price. For war at sea, they are useless. I can’t come up with roles in the sea for small armored decks, except that the lead of destroyers but the “leaders” are an expensive class of ships. Within the framework of the RNE, most of the auxiliary tasks could be performed by ships within 800-1500 tons. Which reminded of the large destroyers. (and Novikah, which became the standard size later, to PMV).

    Quote: arturpraetor
    The attack on “Kasuga” with “Nishin” would be the reason for the British intervention in the conflict, which, to put it mildly, is not the best prospect.

    There is great doubt that the British would go to war with Russia over the Japanese cruisers. This is too much for William. But in general, by "intercept" I meant just to buy immediately as they were offered. RI was the first to receive such an offer, and the Italians, by all indications, preferred the Russians.

    And thanks for the interesting discussion! We didn’t even deviate too much from the topic of “pebbles,” but we must understand why they are needed as a class and what options could be.
  28. arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 17 July 2019 00: 34 New
    +1
    Quote: Saxahorse
    I can’t understand why the gunboats are overgrown and not a couple of destroyers for example.

    Because overgrown gunboats are not only valuable fur, but also big guns laughing Moreover, large guns placed on a much more stable and seaworthy platform than the destroyer. It is very useful to have at least one such platform in the close cover of the troika-four of their fighters, to which they can retreat in case of problems. Although ideally, of course, 3-4 had such a close cover so as not to be afraid of meeting Japanese forces of light forces, but, for example, three "sleepy goddesses" cost about the money like 6 "Svetlan", plus "Varyag" , Askold and Bogatyr - and we already get 8-10, and even 12 cruisers are a bit larger than Svetlan, with 6-8 six-inch and speed of about 21 knot (though the Aurora will go to the 1 TOE I didn’t, but it’s like that) And such a number of armored cruisers, IMHO, would radically facilitate the life of the 1th TOE, and improve the stability of our destroyers, which, as you recall, were covered at the exits by almost the same “Bayan” and “Novik” against many Japanese cruisers, which, according to in essence, we were constrained by our light forces and did not allow them to carry out reconnaissance and patrol functions with due efficiency - our patrols felt confident only in the outer roads, and the farther from the base, the higher the chance of interception by Japanese fighters and armored cruisers, the greater constraint of action, the less useless of the available light forces.

    Nor did I drink a drop of rum! I mean, I didn’t touch the Pacific BrKr and even Novik, increasing the number of six-inch armored cruisers from 5 to 8-12 (most likely, all the same 10) for the same money. The main thing is not to order the alt-Svetok at domestic government shipyards, otherwise there will be a large quantitative and financial bummer. Only domestic private shipyards (Baltic and Nevsky plants, the latter with reservations) and foreign orders under a single TTZ.
    Quote: Saxahorse
    The same "Lieutenant Shestakov" was carrying two 120 mm guns, why would a couple of these be worse than one minicracer in the 3-4 thousand tons.?

    The Shestakovs were ordered after the war, and no one would put 120-mm guns on the destroyer BEFORE the REV, this is progression, which is not good. The superfine result for the RPN would be just the first Volunteer fighters, with 2x75 and 4x57, or even 4-6x75. It's too early to think about 120mm on fighters, in the gaming industry this is called cheating laughing And an attempt to build a mine cruiser with 120-mm cannons before the REV would cause an increase in the size and cost of the ships (the drowning cost of destroyers is off the charts), and most importantly, the response from the Japanese, and they could also have something like that, built in English shipyards.

    In addition, mine cruisers have worse seaworthiness and survivability than armored decks. These are absolutely bargain ships, without providing a strong (and numerous - otherwise it will not be strong) rear, our mine cruisers will still be very limited in capabilities. And here it is important to understand that fighters do not cancel armored decks, and armored decks do not make fighters useless. It’s like a tank with infantry - and this is individually good, but the tank, with the support of a platoon of infantry, will perform a combat mission much more efficiently. BrKr is too expensive to make tanks of them (by this analogy), BrKr are more likely mobile assault guns, and armadillos are supporting artillery from the rear. Jumping over one class means losing efficiency, because the complex interaction of ships of various specializations works much better. Oh how I got it laughing
    Quote: Saxahorse
    I can’t think of roles in the sea for small armored decks, except that the lead of the destroyers but the “leaders” are an expensive class of ships.

    The near cover, and large enough to not be afraid of unnecessary losses and squeezing by the numerically superior enemy forces (and the Japanese had just huge armored decks).
    Quote: Saxahorse
    Within the framework of the RNE, most of the auxiliary tasks could be performed by ships within 800-1500 tons.

    It’s indecent for money, if you take the average average tonnage of destroyers of that time, then your 1500-ton boat will cost about 225 thousand pounds, 800-ton - 120 thousand, while the same Sveta costs about 270 thousand , fighter 350-450-ton class - in the region of 50-70 thousand pounds. You’ll lose armored decks as well, and, most likely, you will further reduce the number of destroyers in the 1th TOE. In addition, such ships will not have sufficient survivability to deal with armored cruisers (who have at least 2 six-inch guns and 3 120-mm guns on board, and this, given that the Japanese armored decks did not go alone, but were piled up in a crowd), and most likely - and at a sufficient speed to effectively combat enemy fighters. I’m afraid it will turn out even worse than it was in reality — they will attack with a crowd and stammer in quantity, and the economy will not allow riveting a sufficient number of such ships.
    Quote: Saxahorse
    And thanks for the interesting discussion! We didn’t even deviate too much from the topic of “pebbles,” but we must understand why they are needed as a class and what options could be.

    Thank you! hi In general, I like the “pebbles”, as they are quite good for the domestic versions of various foreigners like the same “Emden,” but the trouble is, they won’t be riveted a lot, even if you abandon the construction of “goddesses” and “six-thousandths,” and artillery plan with 120-mm guns against the Japanese armored decks, perhaps, rather weak. Therefore, it is possible to solve the "cruising issue", IMHO, only by completely revising it, otherwise it turned out in the REV that there are cruisers, but not many, and not as needed. No, they were chic in places, but hammering nails is much more convenient with a hammer than with a microscope ...

    PS Not so good at me it turns out not to be distracted from work laughing
  29. AK64
    AK64 16 July 2019 10: 06 New
    +1
    As for the raider war - this is another big domestic jamb.


    So it was prepared against England.
    What does Japan have to do with it? In general, Japan did not perceive anyone as a potential adversary.
    And the raider fleet is against England. Because a linear fleet commensurate with the English could never be created anyway
  30. arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 16 July 2019 11: 57 New
    0
    And here it does not matter, against England or someone else. Purely French raider doctrine, Russia could not master economically, it was necessary to go its own way, which in our conditions was to be similar to the German one - special ships there. if they did raids, it was probably because they didn’t have any particular way out ("Emden" and the squadron of Spee, cut off from the metropolis).
  31. mmaxx
    mmaxx 16 July 2019 05: 31 New
    +2
    The price depends on the volume of production and the general development of the industry. With this, everything was fine with the British and Americans. Large volumes of civil and military fleet construction speak of this. The Germans, in principle, did not pursue cheapness. The French too. They fed their industry.
    Current experience says that comparing prices here and there is the last thing. If you want to develop your industry, the system is here. Need a low price - buy there. But there will be no industry. On this, not one country ended with development and existence.
    So the sense of all this tsifir hundred years ago in terms of budget things is zero. And from the point of view of the development of industry and the country, on the contrary, it is interesting.
  32. Comrade
    Comrade 16 July 2019 02: 57 New
    +3
    Quote: arturpraetor
    Mikasa. Somewhere in the area of ​​900 thousands without weapons, and maybe armor. Total cost - about 1,7 million pounds

    Dear Artyom, much less. I came across an American newspaper of that time, there the cost of "Mikasa" is indicated with an accuracy of one yen. The Yankees in the article compared the cost of the American battleships and the English, guessed and made forecasts, when will they finally be equal in price to the British?
    "Mikasa" "everything about everything" cost the Japanese a little over fourteen million yen, I don’t remember hundreds and tens of thousands. Top Secret History has a contract value, but it does not reflect the fullness of the picture.
  33. arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 16 July 2019 12: 01 New
    0
    Quote: Comrade
    Dear Artem, much less.

    Therefore, he indicated 1,7 million as a figure from a very muddy source. Well, can not be "Mikas" more "Lord Nelson"!
    Quote: Comrade
    “Mikasa” “everything about everything” cost the Japanese a little over fourteen million yen, I don’t remember hundreds and tens of thousands.

    At the exchange rate - from 1,4 to 1,5 million pounds. It is quite plausible. Thank you for specifics. hi

    By the way, dear colleague, and on the American battleships do not give information? I searched for it in my time, but found almost nothing, no figures for comparison, but it would be interesting.
  34. Comrade
    Comrade 16 July 2019 02: 42 New
    +2
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    sclerosis tells me that for "Mikas" Vickers paid 780 thousand pounds. and for the Garibaldians Ansaldo on 750 thousand

    Dear Ivan, if you take the cost of "Mikasa" with all the "stuffing", it will be the approximate equivalent of two "Garibaldians" bought by the Japanese, +/- several tens of thousands of pounds. The Garibaldis didn’t go to Japan fully staffed in several positions, and the Japanese had to buy and install something there at their own expense.
  35. 27091965
    27091965 15 July 2019 16: 58 New
    +3
    Quote: AK64
    And to put the Garibaldians in line ....


    Dear Andrei.
    I think it is worth noting that the Garibaldians were developed more than ten years before the Russo-Japanese War. The Italians designed them for their needs and tasks, the fact that these ships were not liked by large countries is understandable. Having such a ship with the quantitative composition of their fleets, Latin America, immediately raised their status. The purchase of these ships by the Japanese is an attempt to purchase already, something ready for the start of hostilities.
    Not a big excerpt from the trials of one Garibaldian published in 1900.

    ".....the armored cruiser Varese completed its first natural-draft test on October 20, when for six hours the average speed was 96 per minute, providing 9 liters. with. and speed of 200 knots. Coal consumption was 18,3 pounds per hour, which was found to be very satisfactory.... "
  36. AK64
    AK64 15 July 2019 18: 40 New
    +1
    I think it is worth noting that the Garibaldians were developed more than ten years before the Russo-Japanese War.

    Yes, everything is clear, as it is understandable, and that before the REV almost everyone believed that the contribution of 6 "guns in a linear battle would be large and significant. But it doesn’t matter who thought what --- it is important that both the Asamoids and the Garibaldi are quite unsuccessful investments of money.

    If dominance over the sea is captured in a linear battle, then the only conclusion is that it is linear forces that are needed first of all.
  37. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 20: 55 New
    +1
    And if he doesn’t catch up with Mikas Gromoboy, and he will drown all the merchants insolently? That's why counter-raiders are needed. And imagine a couple of Drakes in Vladivostok - everyone is covered with a copper basin. Japanese shipping by sea
    And will it be easy for you from 4 more Mikasa?
  38. AK64
    AK64 16 July 2019 10: 14 New
    +1
    And if he doesn’t catch up with Mikas Gromoboy, and he will drown all the merchants insolently? That's why counter-raiders are needed.

    .... which the Japanese did not have: Asamoids or Garibaldians are NOT counter-raiders. (Or --- unsuitable counter-raiders)
  39. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 16 July 2019 10: 42 New
    +1
    I agree, unfit. But the animeshniki, when they were ordered, thought - that’s it. They were cruelly mistaken. To counter the cruising war, Japan was completely unprepared. She was saved that Russia turned out to be unprepared for the cruising war even more - but they were going to butt with England itself
  40. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 16 July 2019 22: 38 New
    +1
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    I agree, unfit. But the animeshniki, when they were ordered, thought - that’s it. They were cruelly mistaken. To counter the cruising war, Japan was completely unprepared.

    I don’t quite understand why, in your opinion, the Japanese should see a counter-trader in Asamah? They were originally planned as the fleet wing of a linear squadron. This even number - six pieces by the number of armadillos - suggests. :)

    The Japanese had their own, real, experience of naval warfare with China. And they were convinced of the need for a high-speed detachment in a general battle.
  41. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 16 July 2019 13: 05 New
    +1
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    And imagine a couple of Drakes in Vladivostok - everyone is covered with a copper basin. Japanese shipping by sea

    To overlap all sea, you need a whole squadron of "Drakes", maybe not just one.
  42. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 16 July 2019 14: 23 New
    +1
    And to raise freight rates many times more than a couple is more than enough)
    Do you think that if you want to sink at least five percent of the working tonnage, those who wish to carry cargo in line will line up?
    This is not WWII, it’s not about protecting your homeland, it’s purely for the loot
  43. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 16 July 2019 16: 19 New
    +1
    But transportations with a "copper basin" will not be covered, just as they were not covered by the USA from the successes of Alabama.
    In general, PMSM is a dead end way for super traders. Not to mention the fact that “Drake” is not a fig, not a raider, but quite the contrary - the Defender :)) Actually, we were pierced with this. “Rurik” at the time of creation is a kapets which is a super-duper raider, but in ten years it’s a weak link and target. And with "Drake" the same song, ten years later they rule the battlecruisers, which any armored cruiser has on one tooth.
    Makarov at one time wrote that instead of one raider in 12000 tons, release four at sea on 3000.
  44. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 16 July 2019 17: 13 New
    +1
    they are not covered by the USA from the success of Alabama


    what was sunk by all the southerners' raiders for all time from strength amounted to 5% of the tonnage of only the USA, not to mention the tonnage turning around on these routes
    there are many reasons for this. starting from the embarrassment of sinking the USS ships that hung a neutral flag, and ending with the fact that Ms. Alabama often hung out in the wrong place, IMHO (what kind of boat did she walk in the Indian Ocean?)
    dependence of the USA on maritime trade, of course, took place, but against the backdrop of Japan it was simply no, and the troops of the USA did not need to transport and supply anywhere across the sea

    "Drake" is not a fig, not a raider, but quite the opposite - Defender :))


    let's say, the speed of the Drake allowed it to perform almost any function, including, for example, squad reconnaissance, and even in a linear battle it was incomparably more useful than the Asamoids, since it was due to its enormous speed that such cruisers could arrange a crossing-T

    path of super traders dead end


    if there is anything to intercept them, only then a dead end. "Drake" in the REV, this, of course, is not a "Goeben" in the WWI, but also a big nuisance: it will catch up and destroy the armored deck, easily tear itself away from any armored enemy

    ten years later they rule linear cruisers


    Well, yes, but for 10 years it was possible to steal a taxi before they appeared, in addition, by 1914, “Drake” was outdated much less than “Kent” or “Devonshire”

    Makarov at one time wrote that instead of one raider in 12000 tons, release four at sea on 3000.


    I don’t remember something, who managed to squeeze in 3000 tons the range and seaworthiness suitable for the raider, and also with decent speed, especially on the excitement
    easier then good merchant in the raider remake
    the trick for which I like the Drake raider is that if the Bogatyr is the death sentence for the first two, then the Drake is an excellent combat score
  45. The comment was deleted.
  46. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 26 July 2019 14: 14 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    all that was sunk by all raiders of the southerners for all the time from the force amounted to 5% of the tonnage only USA

    Fine! because your wish is fulfilled :)))
    Do you think that if you want to sink at least five percent of the working tonnage, those who wish to carry cargo in line will line up?

    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    even in linear combat, he was incomparably more useful than asamoids

    The late Admiral von Spee fiercely smiled in the next world :))
    but for 10 years to break up before their appearance could be robust

    their time is over much faster. "Vacanto-okupanto" entered into service in 1904. "Regina Elena" and "Scharnhorst" in 1907.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    I don’t remember something, who managed to squeeze in 3000 tons the range and seaworthiness suitable for the raider, and also with decent speed, especially on the excitement

    Although "Emden" was founded later, but not much different from their classmates of the previous type.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    "Bogatyr" then for "Drake" - an excellent combat score

    Maximum - earn conjunctivitis from the smoke of a cruiser leaving at all pairs.
    easier then good merchant in the raider remake

    And it’s possible to equip auxiliary cruisers for the Drake cost so much that they banned me last time when I tried to express it mathematically :)))))
  47. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 26 July 2019 17: 15 New
    0
    Good afternoon, dear colleague!

    for all time from the force amounted to 5% of the tonnage only the USA

    and compare mine:
    5% of the turnover are figures that are excellent by an order of magnitude
    honestly, “Alabama” is never an example, as it was hanging around wherever needed
    + the level of dependence of the USA and Japan on imports is slightly different

    Admiral von Spee

    Coronel is the result of poor preparation of ecpeages and weak command, the construction of the “Drakes” has to do with it? And so you can continue ... According to the results of one battle, some conclude that Borodino is not an EDB) Do not be so hasty)

    Although Emden was laid down later

    by the time Emden was founded, Von der Tann had already been ordered and they began to scratch the turnip about the next type (Moltke and Goeben)
    and on the date of the start of the REV, the Germans had only Gazelle in service)

    Scharnhorst

    volley about 770 kg, against 710 kg "Drake", lower speed, less range
    oops, wait a minute, I think you should speak for Friedrich Karl and Bayan, at best
    otherwise I’ll have to talk about Invincible

    "Regina Elena"

    food for the Dreadnought,
    understand, the Dreadnought has somewhat depreciated the armadillos,
    but at the same time he turned armored cruisers with a speed of less than 23 knots into a mockery and useless trash, the conventional Rurik, which looked cool in 1905, not to mention the Japanese built after the REV, were outdated not because they could not repel the Invincible, but because she couldn’t run away from the Dreadnought

    Threat. Do you really believe in the characteristics declared by the pasta "Reggie?", well, like there 10 miles sailing range repeat

    earn conjunctivitis

    I certainly understand that “Drake” ran out of 24 knots on one of the runs, and “Leviathan” out of 25 for only a few minutes, but even I think “Bogatyr” and “Novik” would be very hard to run from them + we don’t forget, that the dimensions of the "Drake" give it an edge on excitement, and the power plant is advertised as super reliable and hardy
  48. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 26 July 2019 20: 19 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    the construction of "Drakes" and?

    With that, Hope Hope was sunk by eight-inches, and Borodintsy needed the armored battalion group of companies.
    So the ten Italians cope. Whatever the cruising range.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    but it turned into a mockery and useless trash armored cruisers

    What I'm talking about. "Drakes" - money down the drain. Very specific ships that only the indecently rich "Lady of the Seas" could afford
  49. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 27 July 2019 00: 17 New
    0
    With that, Hope Hope was sunk by eight-inches, and Borodintsy needed the armored battalion group of companies.


    I actually wrote that they are better than the Asamoids, and I did not compare them with armadillos
    about "Borodino" this is so, a joke to Nikolai;)
    but the modern ones named Friedrich Karl or Bayan (here I repeat) are simply stupid freaks against their background

    What I'm talking about.


    But no. “Drakes” had 23 knots for the project, a maximum of 25 trials for a short time (“Leviathan”),
    on Belleville boilers (do you understand what it is: such speed on these boilers ?!)
    because only they didn’t become obsolete when the Dreadnought appeared, when the more armored and armed, but less fast-moving Rurik 2 and all sorts of other Tsukubas turned into a laughing stock

    Very specific ships


    The “Thunderbolt” fight with “Drake” is a death sentence for the Russian raider, because after serious injuries he is doomed (at the Britons and the base and help, and he will fight back from everyone and drag around damaged halfway around the world, which is unrealistic)
    “Bogatyr” from “Drake” is not a fact that he will run away, “Novik” is also not a fact, and even without coal
    And in a squadron battle, 23 knots will allow crossing any Mikas

    Good evening!
  50. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 27 July 2019 12: 54 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    Fight "Gromoboy" with "Drake"

    Why would it suddenly? "Russia" and "Gromoboy" were alone against four asamoids with roughly equivalent armament (because the two 9,2 "do not have a decisive preponderance over the four 8") The weather was great, so the navigability was enough for the asamoids.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    (understand in general what it is: such a speed on these boilers ?!)

    I understand that, but you are afraid, no.
    What makes you think that it is difficult to keep steam on them? Exactly the opposite is easier. They are simpler, more reliable, they are easier to maintain, they do not have stupid bends of tubes (boilers are rectangular).
    Their disadvantage is that they are heavy. And if you use triangular boilers (Yarou or Tornikrofty), then they, for the same weight, will be more, therefore, they will give more steam .... but at a specified time, they are not entirely reliable.
    The British did just that - they stuffed a damn break through the boilers, reliably providing the cars with steam. But the output turned out to be a hell of a big, but relatively weakly armed and weakly armored “trade advocate”. His Majesty’s fleet could afford it, but no one else.
    And this ... Dreadnoughts do not chase cruisers. They have different tasks. And even the battlecruisers for this attracted a single time. When the “Drakes” and their descendants showed their complete helplessness.
  51. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 27 July 2019 15: 01 New
    0
    "Russia" and "Stormbreaker" were together against four asamoids with approximately equivalent weapons


    correct me, if that, but Kamimura intentionally did not go into close combat for a possible exchange

    I understand that


    these are the most reliable boilers of their time,
    as well as heavy and dimensional
    correct me if that happens, but Crump and each of the subsequent builders with calculations convinced MTC of the impossibility of reaching the 23 warship with the use of Belleville boilers

    Dreadnought not chasing cruisers


    brkr in a squadron battle: reconnaissance and crossing - how do you order them to be carried out if the main enemy forces have the same speed as the brkr?

    When the Drakes and their descendants showed their complete helplessness.


    I repeat once again:
    Three shells hit the Scharnhorst, no casualties.
    A 4 projectile hit the Gneisenau, two wounded.
    And here is the design of the cruisers, if the crews failed?

    More examples will be?
  52. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 27 July 2019 16: 25 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    correct me if that happens, but Crump and each of the subsequent builders with calculations convinced MTC of the impossibility of reaching the 23 warship with the use of Belleville boilers

    I will correct. Crump and the others were bound by displacement. The English projecting "Drakes" - no.
    In the displacement of six thousand meters and the British were obtained "Highlining"
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    brkr in squadron battle

    absolutely nothing to do. In the same way as the casemate battleships of Lissa times, there is nothing to do in squadron battles of the RNW.
    For reconnaissance and other things during WWI, there were ships built at a different technological level.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    Three shells hit the Scharnhorst, no casualties.
    A 4 projectile hit the Gneisenau, two wounded.
    And here the design of cruisers

    Thunderbolts and order 30 shells got into each of the Thunderer and Russia, but they returned to Vladivostok.
    Sorry, but you are saying that you can put the Drakes in line. I'm trying to convey to you the idea that they are not suitable for this completely, because there they will meet with guns much more powerful than 210mm guns ShIG. And from the training of the crew, their armor will not become thicker.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    More examples will be?

    Examples of what?
  53. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 27 July 2019 17: 21 New
    0
    Kramp and others were related by displacement. The British designing "Drake" - no.


    "Lancaster" (type "Kent" - with a limited displacement) on tests 8 hours held 24 node, with the "Belleville" boilers
    Incidentally, I thought that the specific gravity of the EU in% of our six-thousanders is greater than that of Drake and his followers, isn’t it?

    In the displacement of six thousandths


    "Highflyer" cost 280 thousand pounds,
    "Eclipses" from 240 thousand pounds - they were specially made as cheap as possible,
    no one ever set the task to develop high speed in front of them and it’s very big guard

    Thunderstorm and Russia hit 30 shells each


    an example with the number of hits I led to the fact that Cradock’s ships were not able to shoot, maneuver normally and fight for survivability - low training of crews from reservists

    By the way, I personally think that “Stormbreaker” was not chosen in vain as the founder of a series of ocean raiders in vain - to finish it and it would be an excellent ship for mass construction in Russia: simple from a technological point of view and reliable
    IMHO, on the basis of the Coronel it’s very naive to say that the combat survivability of the Drake is lower than that of the Stormbreaker

    It’s not right to line up the brkr in principle (just from hopelessness) - brkr are needed for crossing and should cover the opponent’s head, acting ahead of the main forces
    23 Drake nodes made it easy for him to cross Mikas
    for crossing, the Dreadnought already needs 25 knots, because Fisher tried to achieve them with Invincible at ANY PRICE
    19 Kassugi knots, 20 Yakumo knots, a maximum of 20,5 Bayan knots, and even 21 Rurik 2 knots - fun already against the background of the Duncans, and with the advent of the Dreadnought they became already very miserable

    from crew training, their armor will not become thicker


    but get the Spee cruisers equal to the number of hits with the British, it is not known how the battle at Coronel would go
    By the way, Kredok was correctly given the “Canopus”, if something is wrong - British hunters should always be able to make their legs up to the colonial battleship,
    and if according to the results of the battle all wounded animals - here the colonial armadillo comes and drowns opponents for free (if he catches up with damaged opponents, of course)

    Examples of what?


    how the "Drakes" and their followers severely endured from classmates
  54. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 09: 19 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    "Lancaster" (type "Kent" - with a limited displacement) on tests 8 hours held 24 node, with the "Belleville" boilers

    "Asama" with cylindrical accelerated to 23 and what? At "Kent", with a displacement similar to that of the asamoids, the armor was thinner, the armament was weaker, and it was impossible to say that autonomy was striking.
    Another example is money down the drain.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    By the way, I personally consider Thunderbolt absolutely in vain not to be chosen as the founder of a series of ocean raiders - to finish it

    And it would have turned "Scharnhorst" :)))
    By the way, Cradock absolutely correctly gave "Canopus"

    What would Sir Christopher never catch up with von Spee? :)))
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    how the "Drakes" and their followers severely endured from classmates

    The British had the sense not to send them into battle again, but to use them as "trade defenders"
  55. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 11: 22 New
    0
    what?


    it’s just that the British Brkr seems faster even than the “Bogatyr”, despite Belleville boilers, but nothing

    Another example is money down the drain.


    which would make cowardly hide any bpkr any probable adversary

    And would have been Scharnhorst


    no, it wouldn’t work out, I would leave the finished “Stormbreaker” casemate so as not to turn it into a “Victory”, and leave it as simple as possible for mass construction

    in no case caught up


    chasing the brkr (a few hours), and then, if something is wrong, they make their legs to the colonial battleship,
    and if so, we have a bunch of wounded animals and a colonial battleship on the way
  56. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 11: 30 New
    0
    Colleague, let's dot the i.
    I want to remind you that I started this discussion only after your words of praise addressed to "Drake" and so it is with you, and so that ...
    My reasons are as follows:
    As an anti-trader, it is excessively large and expensive (especially roads), as a potential participant in a linear battle is not sufficiently armed and armored. Only England could afford such unbalanced ships and repeating them in any other fleet would be an unforgivable mistake. Sobsno, they did not repeat.
    That's all I wanted to say.
  57. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 11: 49 New
    0
    Let's set it up.

    it is excessively large and expensive (especially expensive)


    name the anti-raider against "Stormbreaker", which is better suited

    as a potential participant in the linear battle is not sufficiently armored


    because I said that in the course of such a battle, his task is precisely crossing, since it is here that he realizes his amazing speed as his main argument

    as a potential participant in the linear battle is not sufficiently armed


    because (six months ago I had a similar discussion with Ansar), I wrote that they need several pieces together in order for the conditional “Tsesarevich” crossing to be effective

    great and expensive (especially expensive)


    Cressi 760 thousand pounds
    "Drake" 996 thousand pounds
    "Kents" 750 thousand pounds
    "Devonshire" at 848 thousand pounds

    I would not say that the increase in the capabilities of Drake against Cressy or Kent does not correspond to the increase in value, but money down the drain is Devonshires

    Only England could afford


    what's better? Nissin + Kassuga + Asama + Yakumo or 3 Drake?
  58. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 12: 58 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    "Drake" 996 thousand pounds which is better?

    if we talk about RIF, then a normal battleship for the same money.
    anti-trader against "Gromoboy"

    against "Gromoboy" - four "Drake" Against "Rurik", "Powerful" and "Terible" ...
    Yet in vain the main perverts believe the Franks.
    You know, as for me, instead of "Bogatyr" it was possible to build something "Prinzegenrikho-yakumoobraznoe".
    9000 tons (+ \ -), 21 node. 2-254 in the towers and tens of 152 in the casemates.
    This, for a number of reasons, would be a good one, but at the same time a real option for the RIF.
  59. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 13: 31 New
    0
    You know, as for me, instead of the “Bogatyr” it was possible to build something “Princessgenrich-Yakum-like”. 9000 tons (+ \ -), 21 knots. 2-254 in the towers and a dozen 152 in the casemates.


    only this treasure should still run out of 20 nodes

    normal battleship for the same money


    has all the advantages except the inability to fight on communications

    if we talk about the reef


    if you know for sure that the fate of the war will be decided against the Japanese in the Yellow Sea, then you don’t need Varyag + Askold + Bogatyr + Bayan, but you need 2 more EDB Retvisan 2 and Tsesarevich 2 and 1 " Gazelle "to them as advice notes

    against Thunderbolt - four Drake


    good to be healthy and rich)
  60. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 16: 48 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    good to be healthy and rich)

    Not without it.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    the fate of the war will be decided against the Japanese in the Yellow Sea

    What is it?
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    only this treasure should still run out of 20 nodes

    "Roon"
  61. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 19: 26 New
    0
    Not without it.


    There is a good saying: "I'm not so rich as to buy cheap things" - this is directly from Drake:
    "quality without compromise" - lucky people)

    What is it?


    Japan had to unconditionally defeat ZhM, and then another PA and further to Mukden and Tsushima, to win all the battles, the Russians just had to win any of the battles to win the war, because in ZhM the Russians could immediately decide everything in their favor completely

    "Roon"


    ran out, and "Prince Henry" could not even test)
  62. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 21: 27 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things.

    Not the case.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    in gm

    Did not solve anything.
    in fact, the victory in this battle (the passage of the squadron in Vladivostok) only worsened the operational situation.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    ran out, and "Prince Heinrich" could not even on trial

    And for whom I wrote the "figurative"?
  63. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 21: 54 New
    0
    Not the case.


    it’s the one, “Drake” was aging slower than “Kent” and much slower than “Bayan 2”, which were outdated at the time of issuing an order for them

    passage of the squadron to Vladivostok


    no, I didn’t mean fleeing, that is, a breakthrough, but a victory, well, like: there were “Aleksandr 3”, “Oslyabya” and “Sisoy” there, because they sank “Fuji” and “Nissin”, they lost “Sisoy ", Togo retreated, made hara-kiri, animeshniki came to humblely plead for peace)

    And for whom I wrote "figurative"


    here it is necessary to decide: or a belt of 100 mm and then "Friedrich Karl" with 21 knots,
    or a belt of 178 mm and then "Yakumo" with 20 knots and disgusting seaworthiness
    Yes, and this is "not plus minus 9000 tons", but almost 10 000

    Threat. about the thickness of the armor and "Drake" is not a tenant
    several cases of penetration of 152-mm Japanese armor by Russian 12 "shells were recorded in the RPN, while the distance was by no means large, as I understand it
    also not a single one was recorded in the REV, correct me, if anything, penetration of Japanese armor from 178 mm inclusive (that Krupp, that Harvey) with Russian 12 "shells
    the British had a 152-mm belt at the Canopus and a 178-mm belt at the Duncans, which means they thought the Duncans would be able to cope with individual hits of 12 at a medium distance, IMHO

    in general, a 100 mm belt is not an option, but the 152 mm is already very good against all but 12 inches, for the latter this is the limit of actual armor penetration in the REV
  64. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 22: 25 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    152-mm is already very good against all but 12 inches,

    And the fact that "Good Hope" drowned 210 mm Sheikh does not really confirm your opinion
  65. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 22: 35 New
    0
    not really confirms your opinion


    I already wrote that the German 210-mm PMV period were much more dangerous than the analogs of the period RNW

    understand, when they designed the same "Sevastopol" 225 mm belt, many considered it "very in reserve", since 203 mm from the experience of the RYAV + is still enough for a little more progress on artillery
    it just so happened that the actual armor penetration over 10 years has grown very, very
  66. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 29 July 2019 09: 30 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    I already wrote that the German 210-mm PMV period were much more dangerous than the analogs of the period RNW

    Wrote, do not argue. It is not clear why you wrote this, because old guns with a long barrel in 40 calibers stood on ShIG. Just times ryav. This is on the "Blucher" already 45 caliber. Those, indeed, more powerful.

    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    very very

    Lope?
  67. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 30 July 2019 00: 59 New
    0
    Lope?


    Sorry, I just got to the computer.

    If you bother, then for a start we will consider a textbook example with 305-mm Obukhov guns (everything is taken into account 100500 times)

    Bulk Vipons gives armor penetration for 305/40 projectile mod. 1892 year
    201 mm at 5,5 km
    Melnikov also gives armor penetration for a 305/40 projectile mod. 1892 year
    200 mm at 5,5 km
    The experience of the RPE shows that at a distance of 5,5 km one should expect penetration of the armor of 152 mm with a regular armored explosion, no evidence of penetration of 178 mm and thicker

    Thus, for the 305/40 projectile arr. 1892, the penetration limit of a projectile capable of an armored explosion is between 160 and 200 mm, it is possible to arbitrarily accept about 178 mm from 30 kb

    Based on experimental shooting and calculations Berkalov 305/52 shell arr. 1911/13, it is necessary to expect penetration of the armor at 280-305 mm with a regular armored explosion from a distance of 11 km,

    Lateral load of manpower for 305/52 projectile arr. 1911/13 year surpasses that for the 305/40 projectile mod. 1892 a third

    Accordingly, the resulting quality of the projectile relative to the armor increased by more than one and a half times

    Recalculation according to de Marr shows that if K for a la "Krupp has a qualification of 420" against 305/52 projectile arr. 1911/13 will be about 1850, then K for a la "Krupp class 420" versus 305/40 projectile arr. 1892 will be about 2300

    German shells went a similar development path, with insufficient data for the calculation, I presume the growth of their danger is proportional

    Conclusion: 210-mm Scharnhorst guns with shells which: with a high degree of sharpness, made of good steel, with a good armor-piercing tip and a competent fairing, with TNT, with a normal fuse = stronger than 10 Victory guns, although they yield 12 " guns "Borodin"
  68. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 30 July 2019 08: 54 New
    0
    Strongly pushed, respect!
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    210-mm guns "Scharnhorst" with shells that are: with a high degree of sharpness, of good steel, with a good armor-piercing tip and a competent fairing, with TNT, with a normal fuze = stronger 10 "guns of" Victory "

    Colleague, I understand that you are a communist, but fear God!
    Assuming that the 40 gauges (we are equally like the Germans) will have better ballistics than the 45 gauges (and even a larger caliber, sorry for tautology) a little bit strange.
    The Scharnhorst was laid in 1905 at the same time they ordered cannons and B / C, but in 1909 he choked in Qingdao and more did not appear in the metropolis.
    Yes, the German shells greatly added to the PRC, but mainly because they were earlier ... (they would ban me again if I wrote down what it was)
  69. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 30 July 2019 09: 26 New
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    Yes, German shells greatly added to WWI


    uh, this is a whole dissertation now you will demand from me
    ok, since such a booze started - I’ll choose half a day this week, look at Corbett and Puzyrevsky, trying to give the calculated values

    in order not to fanatize, I’ll say right away that 210-mm German guns pierced 152-mm “drake” krupps from a distance of much more than 30 kb
    Krupp on the "Drake" and the Japanese stood the same
    305-mm guns "Borodino" pierced 152-mm krupp of the Japanese from a distance of about 30 kb
    previously once estimated estimated shells arr. 1892 - a very poor quality was obtained, only the impact strength in advantages
    preliminary conclusion: Germans of the PMV at the expense of shells are better than the 210-mm RIF of the period of the REV for any

    I don’t know what exactly lay in the Sharchnorst cellars, but this something was at a very serious level for the WWI and was incomparably better than what was in the REEF at the RIF

    so, if without calculations, I will calculate a little later
  70. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 09: 34 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    brkr need for crossing and should cover the head of the enemy, acting in front of the main forces

    By the way, where have you ever seen such things that BRKR organized cross-country and so on?
    Contrary to popular misconception, the Japanese did not see the asamoids as a “fast wing” or avant-garde. In any case, in all the battles ryav they went behind armadillos, but certainly not ahead.
  71. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 11: 11 New
    0
    and where did you see this in general, so that DBKR would arrange crossing and so on?


    But where have you seen the Japanese brkr? they had 2 battleships of the rank "Asamoids" and 3 battleships of the rank "Kassuga" and "Nissin"
    I told you that such a brkr like "Drake" due to the ability to cross even a newest battleship would be much more useful in a squadron battle than such a rank 2 battleship, cham "Asama", although they called him brkr, sorry, I did not clearly express your attitude to his positioning, using the traditional terminology "brkr", which led you astray about his position

    In any case, in all the battles of the REV they followed the battleships.


    according to combat instructions Togo: the speed of the first armored squad - 15 knots, the speed of the second armored squad - 17 knots, it was possible to independently use the advantage in speed, including to cover the enemy’s head (and this even if it was understood that they were rank 2 battleships )

    another thing is that, for example, in the Tsushima battle, the Russians gave 9 knots and, in fact, they themselves got into crossing for both flagships, therefore a faster wing was never needed
  72. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 11: 21 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    But where have you seen the Japanese brkr? they had 2 battleships of the rank "Asamoids" and 3 battleships of the rank "Kassuga" and "Nissin"

    Has your account opened up Passer? :)))
    Colleague, this is a very bad idea to cross armored cruisers, even "Drakes" with "Kents", even asamoids with Garibaldians ...
    Although your words can be interpreted as "I have not seen anywhere" :)
  73. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 11: 36 New
    0
    "never seen" :)


    nor did he see the USSR-USA nuclear war, but this does not mean that it was not planned and was not possible

    Has your account opened up Passer? :)))


    no, but in a number of cases he is right, the positioning of “Asamoids” as class 2 battleships historically goes back to the “ideal battleship” of Admiral Kabayama, head of the MGSH, as I understand, in the absence of a suitable universal brkr project, there were many supporters who were able to cut down fast armadillos for this money 2 class (whole party led by Admiral Marquis Ito)
    positioning “asamoids” as “class 2 fast battleships” is widespread

    with the Garibaldians ...

    is it who has a real speed of 16, a maximum of 18 knots in Packingham? )

    even Drake


    booking "Drake" is slightly weaker than that of "Asam", but the fact that the combat stability of "Drake" is lower than that of "Asam" is a very big question, which means that the line would be about the same, and when crossing, the number of hits would not be large it was for sure

    "Kentami"

    this is a scam, I didn’t write about “Kent” crossing, “Kent” - to mock “Varyag”
  74. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 12: 44 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    maximum 18 nodes

    So there is a difference of five knots with a Witgefta squadron, as in Drake’s over hypothetical 18 hub-type DLRs.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    combat stability "Drake" below that of the "Asam" - a very big question

    Not. Nissin has been under 305mm fire, but 210 has been enough for Good Hope. And no matter how aptly he fired at the battleship, the 9,2, "that the elephant is a grain, but in return, 12 will fly in."
    With normal shells - not a tenant.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    this is a scam

    A "Drake" only four, it is necessary to help them tongue
  75. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 13: 15 New
    0
    And there are only four “Drakes”, you need to help them with tongue


    they shouldn’t be helped if she had the stinginess of “their lordships”
    instead of wasting money in the form of “Kent” and especially “Devonshire” to drive “Drake” in a large series
    the same money - more sense

    With normal shells


    Is it the same for enemies? - Togo shells like "Russian arr. 1911" drowns all 2 TOEs in the first hour of the battle, so you can continue to infinity

    not a tenant.


    152 mm belt + coal + 37 mm bevel - with 30 kb 305 mm projectile mod. 1892 will not break through

    "Nisin" under fire 305mm visited, but the "Good Hope" was enough and 210.


    the whole question is how much and wherever
    are there any constructive features that allow us to consider the protection and survivability of "Drake"
    insufficient against 4-6 hits of a 305-mm shell mod. 1892 and a half dozen six-inch
    from a distance of 30 kb?
    German 210-mm period of the WWII were much more dangerous than their 203-mm analogues of the period of the REV, primarily due to shells, for the REV the armor of the Drake was sufficient

    And no matter how accurately he shot at the battleship, 9,2 "to the elephant is a shot, but 12 will fly back."


    Actually, "Eagle" from 6 "and 8" suffered a lot. And if you shoot 4 "Drake" on 1 EDB?

    So five knots difference with Witgeft squadron


    this is if the head 4 do not go 16,5 knots suddenly)
  76. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 16: 44 New
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    Colleague, remember when Garibaldians were developed. For their year, they are fast enough, and in 1904 they (conceptually) have as much as “good hope” under Coronel.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    In general, the "Eagle" from 6 "and 8" suffered a lot.

    Well, Kostenko claimed that only 12 "was 40 :)))
    According to Japanese data, 12 "- 12; 8" -7; 6 "is on the order of 20. That is, it" got pissed off "by no means from 8" :)))
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    And if XDUMX "Drake" shoots at 4 ADB?

    The British did not know how to do this in WWI. Even in Jutland, mostly whipped one on one.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    German 210-mm of the PMA period were much more dangerous than their 203-mm analogs of the RNW period

    Extremely controversial statement.
  77. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 19: 20 New
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    Extremely controversial statement.


    indisputable) - there was neither TNT nor normal fuses in the REV

    Threat. “Invincible” was better than “Drake” is protected, but not so that it is incomparably
    even the Germans did not do much damage to the Falklands

    Even in Jutland


    there were distances and speeds of a completely different level when shooting was required

    "Tired" he is not from 8 ":)))


    "Obviously, the Eagle received no more than 70 hits, of which 12-inch - only 6 or 7." (Koffman)
    Japanese damage patterns, on the contrary, point mainly to medium-caliber holes in the Eagle

    and in 1904 to them (conceptually)


    latest ships on the old project
  78. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 21: 35 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    "Invincible" was better "Drake" is protected, but not so incomparable
    even the Germans did not do much damage to the Falklands

    Yes, but you are proposing to release it (Drake) against the battleships, and it seems to me, the result will be the same as with Coronel, only faster. Because Fisher's cats (for all the absurdity of the concept) could inflict losses on the NIG, and “Drake” could not.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    "Obviously, the Eagle received no more than 70 hits, of which 12-inch hits are just 6 or 7." (Kofman

    On conscience Kofmana. But it’s obvious that 12 "does incomparably more damage than 8."
    I'll tell you more. capital chips should not sink from 8. "
  79. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 22: 25 New
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    Yes, but you are proposing to release him (Drake) against the battleships


    a crossing vessel will receive far fewer hits than in a line,
    heels of 12 inches "Drake" must endure, well, if the cord there does not blaze)

    for all the absurdity of the concept


    I will try to express it myself:
    A heavy artillery ship in a general battle can perform one of two functions:
    -stay in line (battleship)
    - maneuverable wing, oriented, first of all, to crossing (cruiser)

    requirements:
    - "stand in line" - to tolerate multiple hits GK and be able to painfully snap back
    - “maneuverable wing” - to have 20 percent, or better, even more advantage in speed over battleships, to be able to disable a battleship in a crowd, to withstand several hits

    if Mikasa gives 18 knots, and Duncan 19 knots, then for a maneuverable wing you need at least 22 knots,
    if the Dreadnought gives 21 knots, then for a maneuverable wing even 25 knots is not enough, well, at the limit
    Anyone who does not give 1903 knots in 22 - welcome to the line
    everyone who does not give a speed of 1910 knots in 25 - also welcome to the line

    “Yakumo” could tolerate multiple hits GK, but would have snapped weakly, the conclusion of “Yakumo” weak ebra 2 rank
    "Prince Henry" could not tolerate the Civil Code from the word at all, the conclusion of "Prince Henry" - floating scrap metal
    “Bayan” was not very armored, but very weakly armed, the conclusion is also disappointing: it can endure something, but snapping - almost nothing

    "Drake" - but they can play crossing, he does not have to endure so much
    "Invincible" - but it wouldn’t explode in such quantities (sealed metal cases, fire doors, etc.) and everything would be thin, but within normal limits
  80. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 28 July 2019 22: 32 New
    0
    Following your logic. "Drake" could not tolerate the UK from the word in general, was armored worse than "Bayan", and was not fit in the "maneuverable wing" never.
  81. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 28 July 2019 22: 46 New
    0
    "Drake" could not stand SK from the word at all


    why? In 152, Krupp kept the 1905 mm all the way up to and including 254 mm, and 305 mm would be stuck in the corner, in extreme cases, damaging the bevel

    was armored worse than the Bayan


    Is it just the vertical wall of Harvey? - do not agree

    and was not suited to the "maneuverable wing" never


    In the maneuverable wing in 1905, everyone was fit who would fulfill the following conditions at the same time:
    - Faster than 22 knots
    -has a belt no worse than 152 mm kruppa + bevel of the deck
    - can threesome-foursome cast one battleship (ebr) in a hail of shells

    that is, "Drake" (1903) and "Leon Gambetta" (1905)
  82. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 29 July 2019 09: 39 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    152-mm Krupp kept everything up to 1905-mm inclusive in 254, and 305-mm would be stuck in the corner, as a last resort, damaging the bevel

    Why did you decide that?
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    - can threesome-foursome cast one battleship (ebr) in a hail of shells

    that is, "Drake" (1903) and "Leon Gambetta" (1905)

    Scratched paint, of course, unpleasant, especially the boatswain team. But in order to inflict at least some damage, they will need to get close ... to the battleship's guns.
  83. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 30 July 2019 01: 10 New
    0
    Why did you decide that?


    This is not what I decided, but the experience
    if you find examples of penetration by Russians of 305/40 armor thicker than 152 mm - I will be grateful, I will calculate each

    But in order to inflict at least some damage


    50-60 landmines, even 152 mm each, will be a significant sadness for the conventional Eagle, this time
    There is an opinion that the AP of the 234-mm Drake projectile on armor penetration is quite slightly inferior to the 12 "Borodino", these are two
  84. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 30 July 2019 08: 57 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    eating opinion that BB projectile on armor penetration 234-mm "Drake"

    I will answer you with your own words
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    if you find examples of breaking through

    Then let's talk.
    You want to prove your point of view at all costs, this is understandable, but why should you carry a frank game?
  85. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 30 July 2019 09: 41 New
    0
    I will answer you with your own words


    what for? Let's see the plates for the 234 mm "Drake"

    from 4 160 m it will be 23,4 cm
    "British Battleships: 1860 to 1950."

    from 5 480 m it will be 19.6 cm
    from 8 230 m it will be 13,5 cm
    "The Grand Fleet: Warship Design and Development 1906-1922"

    also look at the plates for Borodino

    from 5480 m it will be 20,0 cm
    (Melnikov)


    Then let's talk.


    stop

    You claimed that 305-mm guns arr. 1895 year projectile arr. 1892, the easy to hit "Drake", that he immediately "is not a tenant"
    I told you that the 152-mm "krupp" of Drake the limit of the actual armor penetration of 305-mm guns mod. 1895 shell arr. 1892 according to the results of the NRF, because firstly it will not be easy to break, and secondly it still has coal and bevel

    Therefore, examples of penetration of a 305-mm gun mod. 1895 shell arr. 1892, armor in 178 mm and thicker must be sought for you, otherwise Drake is positioned as very adequately protected against Borodino
    It is for you that you need to protect the “advertising” figure of 20,0 cm breaking through a 305-mm gun mod. 1895 shell arr. 1892 from 30 kb

    while to help you:



    general idea of ​​the time about the armor penetration of guns in the REV (Russian and Japanese)

    but you still have to protect these "advertising" numbers for the RPE from cutting

    Threat. throw the actual penetration of armor "Drake" to 152 mm with 30 kb I do not mind
  86. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 30 July 2019 09: 57 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    You claimed that 305-mm guns arr. 1895 year projectile arr. 1892, the easy to hit "Drake", that he immediately "is not a tenant"

    Exaggerate, my dear :)) it was written
    RџSЂRё normal shells - not a tenant.

    I said that crossing the "Drakes" (and armored cruisers in general) is a silly and dangerous undertaking. And no one ever did.
    And it is interesting that you succeed, the Russian 330 kg projectile, breaking through the armor, will certainly get stuck in the corner, but the English 170kg (if I don’t confuse it), here it is ...
    And, by the way, in my opinion, the thickest plate that the Russian projectile struck in the RIAW, (EMNIP) was just 178mm. But the location, alas, I do not remember. (it seems Andrey in "The Myths of Tsushima" wrote about "Mikas")
  87. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 30 July 2019 10: 41 New
    0
    I said that doing Drake crossings (and armored cruisers in general) was a stupid and dangerous undertaking.


    With normal shells


    with shells of the period RYAV - it is possible to try

    and armored cruisers in general


    Gneisenau received, I write from memory, at least 29 shells in 12 "
    almost lost track
    almost all artillery was defeated
    but he was not going to drown in the foreseeable future - I had to open kingstones
    Do not so indiscriminately about the low survivability of the BRKR

    Russian 330 kg shell, breaking through the armor, will certainly get stuck in the corner, but English 170kg


    will show a comparable result

    but I was talking about crossing, when 4 "Drake" "fry one" (what I say!) shoot at one "Tsesarevich"

    the thickest plate


    I’ll look at the weekend, you can give it earlier - I’ll say thanks,
    I have long wanted to calculate all the holes in the thick armor of the REV period and compile armor penetration tables
  88. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 30 July 2019 11: 06 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    with shells of the period RYAV - it is possible to try

    I'm sorry, but apart from the Russian and Japanese fleets, there is no one else in the world?
    In fact, in the vicinity of England is France, which has more cruisers (including raiders) and is closer to the trade routes connecting the British metropolis with the colonies. And the artillery from the Franks is very decent.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    but I was talking about crossing, when 4 "Drake" "fry one" (what I say!) shoot at one "Tsesarevich"

    Colleague, although I am an alternative, I cannot imagine such a situation. If a war with England had happened, then “Drakes” as well as “Cressy” would be occupied with their direct business - to search for “Rurikovich” (and the Franks, see the Franco-Russian alliance) in the ocean. And in the battles of the line will participate completely different ships.
  89. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 30 July 2019 14: 05 New
    0
    except Russian and Japanese fleets


    Japanese and British at that time had similar shells and identical armor
    the French and Russians are quite similar in technology and solutions (I’m not ready about frank fuses yet), I know for sure that they didn’t even think about working out a battle at a distance of about 30 kb, therefore they are not ready for it at all
    USA exactly neutral
    shaved pasta and latinos could not take into account
    the Germans remain a big mystery, it is not clear exactly when and for which particular weapons in what quantity they received good shells. but then they were still small and unsuccessful in the design of the battleships

    although I'm an alternative


    me too, albeit a slightly different kind
    For me, the alternative: the Japanese are building 4 "Cressi" and 3 "Drake" for money for asamoids and Garibaldians
    or, for example, the shaves go to hardcore and only build limit ships: 20 Drakes and no Kent there with Devonshire
    well, earlier the same, no Apollo and Diadem only Blake and Powerful
    even somewhere there is a large sheet with calculations for money and terms
  90. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 30 July 2019 17: 45 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    For me, the alternative: the Japanese are building 4 "Cressi" and 3 "Drake" for money for asamoids and Garibaldians

    The Japanese, and so pretty nakosyachili with "asamoids", and you propose to exacerbate this error?
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    only Blakes and Powerfuels

    I am not aware that the opium was then sold freely, but ... there must be something heavier :))
  91. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 30 July 2019 19: 39 New
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    Do you propose to aggravate this mistake?


    and what are your objective data that shaves in a squadron battle are weaker than asamoids?
    in all other forms it is better, I think, there’s nothing to discuss here

    here something harder is needed :))


    what about the arguments?
    Apollo an average of 200 thousand pounds
    "Edgar" about 390 thousand pounds
    "Blake" 433 thousand pounds, but in the series will be lower
    attention to the question: with what fright do you think that 2 Apollo have greater combat value than 1 Blake
    a) at the time of construction?
    b) in a 5-year period?
    c) in a 10-year term?
    d) in the 15-year term?

  92. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 30 July 2019 21: 45 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    and what are your objective data that shaves in a squadron battle are weaker than asamoids?

    "Drakes" are roughly equivalent to asamoids, but more expensive. Kents are weaker for the same (I think) money. And the super-duper range is not really needed by japa. They had the available, by the way, it is not so bad for the asamoids.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    what a fright you think

    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    only Blakes and Powerfuels

    big armored fighter - evil. “Blake” - “Orlando” without side armor, but at such a price, as if it is.
    And the latter themselves were considered a mistake by the British.
  93. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 30 July 2019 22: 43 New
    0
    Orlando


    speed of 17 knots (Blake has 21)
    armored belt 61 x 1,7 m in fact was below the overhead line due to overload
    alas, "Orlando" rank 3 unsuccessful battleship

    and the act of 1889, in fact, was directly replaced by the armadillos of the 2nd class of the Centurion type, worth 530 thousand pounds

    the British considered a mistake


    and ordered a whole herd of "Edgar", which were quite satisfied at that time

    when the technical capabilities appeared to book the board of cruisers of the first rank, without sacrificing critically speed, seaworthiness, autonomy - “Cressi” appeared immediately

    to the question: "with what fright do you think that 2 Apollo have greater combat value than 1 Blake?" therefore, do not come back

    You said, as I understand it, that 6 asamoids (780 t.ph. each) and 2 Garibaldians (730 t.ph. each) are better than 4 Kressi (750 tf each) and 3 Drake (996 each) T.F.)

    I tactfully asked you, as I understand it, to tell you why you think that, for example, Asama has a tangible advantage in a squad battle over, for example, Kressi
  94. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 31 July 2019 11: 08 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    You said, as I understood

    No, you said that the opposite is better. My answer was that “Drake” no benefits before "Asama", besides the high price. And Cressey, at the same price, is weaker. Despite the traditional qualities of cruisers such as seaworthiness in the RIAW, they faded into the background. The main thing was firepower, and here there is absolutely nothing boast.
    By the way, directly compare prices a bit incorrect. The British built “drakes” for themselves, in serious firms. The Japanese cruisers were built by Armstrong. It’s not at all true that they cost them the same price as Royal Nevi.
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    2 "Apollo" have greater combat value than 1 "Blake"? "

    Only one. Two Appolos can be in two places at the same time, and Blake in only one. And for an armed steamer, the meeting with both will end equally. And if there is no difference, then why pay more?
  95. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 31 July 2019 13: 02 New
    0
    Two “Appolo” can be in two places at the same time, and “Blake” in only one.


    but as soon as these places coincide, there will remain 1 Apollo and 1 Blake ... until the next time these places coincide
    "so no volosts ..." pah, that is, BPCR 2 rank you will not stock up

    And for an armed steamboat


    and for, for example, Dmitry Donskoy, a meeting with Apollo and Blake are two very big differences

    And Cressi at the same price is weaker.


    then for the 3rd time I’ll ask:
    "why exactly Do you think that, for example, “Asama” has a tangible advantage in a squadron battle, for example, “Cressi" "?
  96. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 31 July 2019 13: 25 New
    0
    What is the advantage in battle with a cruiser with 4-203 mm and 14 -152 mm guns against, having the same displacement, but only 14 - 152 mm guns?
    I do not even know ... chrysanthemum on the stem - probably looks beautiful :)))
  97. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 31 July 2019 16: 31 New
    +1
    Fie, abyss. Confused "Cressy" with "" Kents ".


    yes
  98. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 30 July 2019 22: 59 New
    0
    Threat. compared to efficiency, you can take the figures of Arthur Praetor

    "Cressy 780 without weapons
    Drake 1050 without weapons
    Asama 880 with weapons
    Kassuga 760 with weapons "

    so many discrepancies

    where weapons are estimated by me at about 100 thousand pounds
    4 x 880 + 3 x1150 = 6970 for 7 shaves
    6 x 880 + 2 x760 = 6800 for 8 Japanese

    the essence does not change much
  99. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 31 July 2019 11: 21 New
    0
    Take a look at the English Vika. There, according to Brasserie, the price of "Drakes" is given for lam pounds (although for some reason different in 1905 and in 1906).
    Now count the barrels in the salvo.
    Your version is 8-234 and 59-152; Japanese 1-254, 30-203, 54 - 152. (if something messed up, please forgive, head a little bit of that.)
  100. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 31 July 2019 13: 24 New
    0
    Check out the English wiki


    I wrote a bunch of options. I gave Drake = 996 t.p. Arthur 1050 thousand pounds

    The problem is this:
    - how much ammunition includes the cost of artillery
    Does artillery include the cost of tower installations
    Does artillery include fire control tools
    on the example of estimates for the Rurik and the cost of the Stormbreaker, the error can be enormous - they have already figured it out, it’s good that the order of the numbers for the Britons as a whole coincides over the entire line of ships for a quarter of a century, so it would be much more difficult to compare with amers

    Now count the barrels in the salvo.


    14 - 234 vs 1-254, 30-203
    48 - 152 vs 54 - 152

    Question 1. Does 2 - 203 give an advantage over 1 - 234, I think it is rather the other way around
    shaving, they say, are sharply superior in rate of fire by 1 barrel, while each shaving shell is much more painful, not to mention a completely different level of armor penetration

    Question 2. Do 54 guns have an advantage over 48, taking into account the open location of some of the guns by the Japanese and problems with the rate of supply of shells, I think that rather the opposite

    Question 3. Does the narrow Asama GBP give an advantage due to its length or is Kressi better or shorter but higher, I think that depends on many factors

    something like
  101. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 31 July 2019 13: 34 New
    0
    Fie, abyss. Confused "Cressy" with "" Kents ".
    Sori Everything is tied up with this garbage, but it has already begun to get confused :)))
    Yes, I completely forgot. 234mm the British did not sell to anyone :))) as if not the only example of this kind - "Averoff".

    And you forget another moment. Big ship he and the content - more.
    Getting into it is also easier.
  102. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 31 July 2019 16: 30 New
    0
    Getting into it is also easier.


    the buoyancy margin grows faster than the affected area to a degree of about 1,5
    and in relation to hits in the waterline almost squared

    234mm the British did not sell to anyone


    well, I don’t know if the japas really asked how to know

    Thanks for the interesting discussion. drinks hi
  103. Nehist
    Nehist 15 July 2019 17: 38 New
    0
    GG You would not flaunt your "clever man" with your aplomb! The Italian school of those times is Brin !!! It was his concepts that later formed the basis of the Drennout. As indicated above, the idea itself is important
  104. AK64
    AK64 15 July 2019 18: 33 New
    +1
    As indicated above, the idea itself is important

    And what is the airborne salvo of an “idea”?
  105. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 16 July 2019 12: 00 New
    +1
    Quote: Nehist
    The Italian school of those times is Brin !!!

    And armadillos with 12 "guns and 100mm main armored belt ...
  106. Nehist
    Nehist 16 July 2019 14: 48 New
    +1
    What did not stop the Briton from translating this idea into a battlecruiser. You apparently also missed the entire discussion thread.
  107. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 16 July 2019 16: 46 New
    0
    No, I didn’t miss it) But still the battlecruiser, even according to Fisher’s plan, was not intended for squadron combat. And here we see the squadron battleship with high speed, powerful weapons and almost no armor protection. Agree, talking about the genius of the Italian school with such actions is not entirely correct)
    Although yes, all the ships of Italy are completely unique and beautiful in their own way!
  108. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 16 July 2019 22: 49 New
    +1
    Quote: Trapper7
    And here we see the squadron battleship with high speed, powerful weapons and almost no armor protection.

    It should be noted that the armored belt of Mikasa or Sikishima confidently penetrated Russian armor-piercing 12 "shells at almost the maximum distance for that time. Hence the question." Why pay more? "(C) :)
  109. Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 17 July 2019 08: 37 New
    0
    Well, at least then, that he still couldn’t penetrate 6 with “guns, but they can penetrate 100mm armor already))
    And then, to be honest, I don’t remember that we would have pierced the main armored belt. 178 mm yes, they even pierced 10 ", but the thicker armor in that war, EMNIP, no one pierced
  110. Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 17 July 2019 22: 51 New
    +1
    Quote: Trapper7
    178 mm yes, pierced even 10 ", but the thicker armor in that war, EMNIP, no one pierced

    These same 178 mm of Mikasa’s main armor belt, made of Krupp steel, are not inferior to 229 mm of the Harvey steel of other Japanese armadillos. So all the Japanese EDB calmly made their way to 43-45 kbl.

    This, incidentally, was confirmed by Russian tests of Sevastopol armor after the war. The 229 mm belt was stitched 12 "with high probability at long distances.
  111. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 14: 08 New
    +3
    "fleet cruisers who should be able to take part in naval battles as a complement to battleships ......."


    the idea itself is important.


    here I completely agree, the success of shipbuilding by the end of the century allowed us to think about creating just such a ship
  112. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 15 July 2019 12: 19 New
    +4
    I don’t know what you like about Drake. The size and price of an armadillo, and the firepower and armor are similar to those of an asamoid, which Coronel demonstrated.
    In fact, a very narrowly specialized ship. Only limes could afford to build such freaks.
  113. AK64
    AK64 15 July 2019 12: 29 New
    +2
    Only limes could afford to build such freaks.

    here is the mentioned White and built ....

    In principle, the colleague does not understand that of course I would like everything, and a lot, but in the conditions of always a limited budget, you need to calculate maximum efficiency for the same money.
    Well, since the goal of the Navy is to seize supremacy at sea, it means that a linear squadron is needed.

    Cruisers, on the other hand, are built as raiders when they do not even want to seize dominance --- for action on communications. (the method is obviously vicious and losing.)

    So the Japanese Amamoids and Garibaldians are not from a great mind. And only Nicholas (due to Russophobia in some places turning into pathology) can praise this. Ships are a waste of money.
  114. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 16: 26 New
    0
    But the cruisers also have the function of counter-raiders, this is what the British needed: “Powerful” versus “Rurik” and so on. The Japanese, too, by the way. And then it’s kind of stubbornly chasing “Fuji” for “Russia”, and even more conveniently for “Izumo” than for “Asahi”
  115. AK64
    AK64 16 July 2019 09: 50 New
    +1
    But the cruisers also have the function of counter-raiders, this is what the British needed: “Powerful” versus “Rurik” and so on. The Japanese, too, by the way. And then it’s kind of stubbornly chasing “Fuji” for “Russia”, and even more conveniently for “Izumo” than for “Asahi”

    Practice, which, as you know, is the only criterion of truth, showed that nothing-and-cruisers-or-armadillos could not do Russian cruisers and did not have the slightest influence on Russian cruising operations.

    Battle in the Korea Strait? So this is not a cruising operation, but a coordinated attempt to break through the 1st TOE in Vladik. And even that - the cruisers are gone. Gone.
    And they would have gone even better --- tearing Jessen south (leading Kamimura behind him)
    That is, what conclusion? Useless this garbage against Russian cruisers.

    It was not Kamimura who stopped the Russian cruising operations, but ... (a) Jessen (who disabled more cruisers than the Japanese!) And (b) the British - demanding to stop.

    Moreover, the uselessness of the Asamoids against Russian cruisers was a priori obvious: their seaworthiness is filthy --- that is, in the ocean this garbage could neither give full speed nor use weapons normally.
  116. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 16 July 2019 09: 59 New
    0
    I agree, but I wrote above that the very idea of ​​creating asamoids was beautiful and necessary, but its normal implementation required a displacement of at least 12 thousand tons, I wondered: a better armored and better armed version of what Cressi would be (if make asamoid based on it) pulls at 13 thousand tons, and then only by reducing seaworthiness and sailing range
  117. The comment was deleted.
  118. mmaxx
    mmaxx 16 July 2019 05: 37 New
    +2
    Here again, it is worth returning to the American postulate about good / bad ships. The Japanese had some unsuccessful ships. But they used them correctly. In those conditions. The result is received.
    And here again, the mental qualities of admirals immediately come to mind.
  119. AK64
    AK64 16 July 2019 10: 19 New
    -1
    Here again, it is worth returning to the American postulate about good / bad ships. The Japanese had some unsuccessful ships. But they used them correctly. In those conditions. The result is received.
    And here again, the mental qualities of admirals immediately come to mind.

    "used correctly", yeah ....
    FIG THERE! This is because against the Russians, and nothing more.
    Just their fleet was much stronger. And if the fleets were at least commensurate --- and ... would cry, howl from the worthless Tsushim.

    When you are stronger, then Tsushima will find a deal. And where to put it in if you are weaker --- and its access to the sea is equivalent to her death?

    That's all the “right use”, the whole secret
  120. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 15: 58 New
    0
    [quote] [/ quote] I love his driving performance, wang: He would catch up with the Bogatyr or Novik. In a turbulent sea and at a long distance for sure, it's cool: a brkr from which not a single armored deck will escape
  121. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 07: 49 New
    0
    They never confirmed the data indicated in the passport - and therefore the Japanese put them in the 1st combat detachment (they did not give the declared speed).


    Yes sir
  122. Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 15 July 2019 12: 10 New
    0
    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
    Yes sir

    Not a fact.
  123. The comment was deleted.
  • anzar
    anzar 14 July 2019 22: 38 New
    +5
    ... but about a large armored cruiser, capable of driving "Asamoids" somehow forgotten or did not find it necessary.

    The second uv. colleague. They thought (as you know) that if such a cruiser at a price equal to an armadillo, it’s better to have more armadillos. Those. a strong squadron of armadillos, accompanied by cruisers, will cope better with everything - possession of the sea, interruption of VR. communications (in a limited area of ​​the Yellow Sea), port blocking ... than mixed (type 6 + 6)
    And this is true, but under one condition, if your escadre is stronger, which is not difficult with the planned ratio of 10 EBR to 6 Japanese + 6 armored cruisers. However (as always)) did not have time ... And in such conditions a strong armor. the cruiser already surpasses the EBR in value, since it can still act in conditions of enemy superiority.
    it would be better, of course, just the "Bayan" were instead of all these ...

    Undoubtedly)) We saw somewhere somewhere :)))))
  • Trapperxnumx
    Trapperxnumx 15 July 2019 12: 56 New
    0
    Of course you didn’t write to me, but let me insert my 5 cents.
    Alas, our industry (in my opinion) worked disgustingly and, unfortunately, there was not enough money for what was needed. No, not like that. Until a certain point, there was no understanding of what we needed and what we wanted. As soon as yesterday thinking about the REE, I came to the sad conclusion (once again) that there was no bright head able to clearly describe that we urgently need this and that for the upcoming conflict and do it then and then. And so ... Well, here’s 1TOE, on paper - a formidable force, 7EDBs against 6 and Japan, and as a result, all the ships of different types and classes, and Relights were not intended for squadron combat, and Poltava was already very outdated. Such a huge number of shortcomings that were made in that war, I personally do not remember anywhere else. Well, besides Britain in 41, when they raked what was laid out in the Pacific Ocean from those whom they themselves so diligently raised.
  • Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 14 July 2019 19: 26 New
    0
    To fight on communications - this is Stormbreaker


    I agree, but only if there is no way to gash my favorite "Drake" or something)

    watchdog


    "Eclipses" - the best combination of cost / efficiency for overseas stations, well, if there are not many old "Edgar", for example, IMHO

    no country in the world at that moment decided the problems of the optimal small cruiser for squadron service
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 16 July 2019 05: 23 New
    +2
    Ehhh ... It used to be written that 6000 tons of cruisers were built in vain, now the Noviks / pebbles are in vain. Still battleships "Relight", the cruiser "Russia" and "Stormbreaker".
    "There are no bad ships, there are ships used for other purposes" (c).
    And this is to our admirals.
    1. Nehist
      Nehist 16 July 2019 15: 01 New
      +1
      If Russia paired with Rurik can still be somehow justified, then the construction of the Thunderbolt without a waste of resources
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 16 July 2019 19: 27 New
        0
        This is true. But somehow in that war there were many useless ships.
      2. Trapperxnumx
        Trapperxnumx 17 July 2019 08: 40 New
        0
        Quote: Nehist
        If Russia paired with Rurik can still be somehow justified, then the construction of the Thunderbolt without a waste of resources

        But it’s beautiful) But in the main, I agree with you. It would be even better if another Relight was built. There was at least some benefit from them.
  • Comrade
    Comrade 14 July 2019 18: 20 New
    +5
    Did the Russian cruisers of 2 rank do any harm to the Japanese ships?

    It is likely that a deeply respected colleague, given the very good, praised British training of artillerymen at the Pearl.
    Before us is the translation of two excerpts from the reports of the English naval attache, the most interesting in this case is the more detailed report of Captain T. Jackson, who observed the progress of the battle from the board of the cruiser "Azuma". The report of the Captain Pakenham captain (Asahi battleship) is also interesting, the passage from which comes first (in square brackets I give clarifications and additions to the original text).

    1) Around 19: 00 [hereafter, Japanese] Idzumo, Azuma, and Tokiwa noticed from the left beam at a distance of 7 000 yards "Pearls" and two or three fighters were far from it. Fearing that after dark the Russian cruiser would direct its fighters at them, the Japanese opened slow fire on it. The Russian cruiser responded with unusually accurate fire from a single gun, but it seemed that his shooting was not rewarded. Shortly after sunset, thick smoke was seen on board and the Japanese ceased fire.

    2) Kamimura in 19: 05 turned his squad four rumba with the “all of a sudden” maneuver, with the result that a number of Japanese fighters were about two miles behind. Eight of them could be distinguished, and since the latter were kept close to the ships of the Fourth battle detachment, they were probably assigned to the Fourth and Fifth detachment of fighters [Asagiri, Murasame, Shirakumo, Asashio, and Shiranui ”,“ Murakumo ”,“ Yūgiri ”,“ Kagerō ”respectively]. In 19: 12 of the cruiser of the Second Combat Detachment, rebuilding into a wake column, turned four rumba to the right. The horizon to the west and north-west at that time began to clear, but still there was still too much fog. Russian ships, clearly in disarray, were clearly visible. In 19: 15, the detachment’s course was changed to NNW, and Captain Murakami [the commander of the cruiser Azuma], seeing the “Pearls” at a distance of about 8 000 yards [and evaluating his maneuvers] with two fighters behind, ordered to open slow fire in the calculation to prevent after dark, the cruiser to direct his fighters on Japanese ships. The Idzumo and Tokiwa coordinated their fire on the Russian cruiser, while the Pearl limited its attention to the Azuma cruiser. Given the firing range and the fact that his main caliber was limited to 4,7, "Pearl shot well, giving small flights, short misses, part of the shells fell not far behind the stern [cruiser" Azuma "]. Each Russian shell fired a tiring howl in flight , which quickly became annoying, and they [shells] seemed to fall so steeply that it seemed as if their angle of incidence should be at least 60 degrees. You could see how each of them, diving, leaves when moving in the water column silver with ice, and the uneven surface of the waves, distorting the picture, created the impression that the shell was wriggling in the water. Later, smoke was observed on the Pearl and the fire [from the enemy’s side] ceased.
    The second combat detachment took place behind the First combat detachment, and Admiral Togo, intending to mislead the Russian fighters, who could have expected darkness to start an attack on the Japanese, headed for E. N. E. for three quarters of an hour, and then turned from N. to E., heading to the rendezvous point, located north of Matsushima.
    1. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 14 July 2019 19: 06 New
      +2
      As always, plus for the facts and, as always, a question on the conclusions):

      The Russian cruiser responded with unusually accurate fire from a single gun, but it seemed that his shooting was not rewarded.


      "Pearl" shot well, giving small overflights, short misses, part of the shells fell not far behind the stern


      shot just fine - never hit

      Like firefighters: "arrived on time, extinguished correctly, everything burned out"
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 14 July 2019 19: 59 New
        +2
        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
        As always, plus for the facts
        This is not for me, this is for the British.
        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
        as always a question on conclusions.
        Like firefighters: "arrived on time, extinguished correctly, everything burned out"

        Questions all to the same two English attache in the rank Captain (equivalent to first rank captain).
        Recall the shooting conditions:
        a) firing range - 29-33 cable;
        b) fog;
        c) time - a little later 19:05. For reference, the sunset there 27 May - 18:49.

        And now the original reports, the assessment of the shooting of the cruiser "Pearl" in Russian - in the previous comment, I post the original in English. By disagreeing with the assessment, you are not arguing with me, but with two competent officers who have officially stated the following:
        If you wish, you can compare the rating of the Pearl shooting with the skeptical estimates of the shooting of the Varyag cruiser made the same British and Americans in addition. In this case, do not lose sight of the fact that the “Varyag” shot not after sunset, not in the fog and on more close range.
        I am writing this for those who can follow the course of our sluggish discussion with you about the level of artillery training at the First and Second Pacific Squadron, since your bias and cynicism do not cease to amaze, and if the facts contradict your beliefs, then all the worse for the facts.
        1. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 14 July 2019 21: 01 New
          0
          and if the facts contradict your beliefs, then all the worse for the facts.


          I, of course, the embodiment of all the bad, but how my beliefs cancel the fact that

          did not seem to be rewarded with any hits
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      14 July 2019 22: 04 New
      +2
      Greetings, dear Comrade!
      Thanks for the reports, extremely interesting!
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 14 July 2019 22: 33 New
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Greetings, dear Comrade!
        Thanks for the reports, extremely interesting!

        Not at all, dear Andrei. Thank you for the topic. And you can talk, and over Kolya Passersby laugh heartily.
        In general, Trubridge's "Pearl" is often found in the text of the report, he personally observed it, but since the description of the actions of this cruiser was not the purpose of the report, there is not much concrete there. However, the context is striking. According to the Englishman (as opposed to the Emerald), “Pearl” was quite active, in any case, not a word about “Emerald” in either of the reports of the two Englishmen. The only mention is when the cruiser “made legs”, it even talks about the speed of the Japanese.
        And here, "Pearl" is constantly mentioned in connection with certain events.
        It is felt that Trubridge writes about the "Pearl" with respect. The cruiser was active and sensible.
    3. anzar
      anzar 14 July 2019 23: 00 New
      +1
      Each Russian shell emitted a tiring howl in flight, which quickly became annoying ..

      Hmm, it’s strange, at such a distance the velocity of the projectile and finally should remain supersonic ...
      1. AK64
        AK64 15 July 2019 01: 26 New
        +1
        Hmm, it’s strange, at such a distance the velocity of the projectile and finally should remain supersonic ...

        Yes, and the angles of incidence are 15. Well, let it be 25. But not 60.
    4. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 16 July 2019 22: 55 New
      0
      Quote: Comrade
      given the very good, praised British training of artillerymen at the Pearl.

      It’s even interesting when it was they, the Pearl gunners, who prepared so well. :) Pearls, for the entire duration of the campaign (9 months), he shot 5 times. Emerald - 3 times. And this is taking into account the teams from the recruits. I hope you do not believe in virtual classes on board the "pebbles" in those days? laughing
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 17 July 2019 01: 38 New
        +2
        Quote: Saxahorse
        I hope you do not believe in virtual classes on board the "pebbles" in those days?

        Here are two English officers, in the rank of captain, officially praised the shooting of the Russian cruiser. And you, instead of rejoicing from the bottom of our hearts for our guys, who had a difficult day behind, but after sunset still finding the strength to adequately respond to a formidable enemy, portray a curved and incredulous grin on your face.
        But if Pearl hadn’t returned fire, but had been draped by the Japanese, which could have done with two fingers on the asphalt, and what it would have been difficult to reproach, you would have laughed joyfully and set about in lengthy arguments about the degeneration of Russian officers .
        You know, according to my observations, in the West, there are several orders of magnitude less Russophobes in the West than in Russia.
        1. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 17 July 2019 22: 44 New
          0
          Quote: Comrade
          You know, according to my observations, in the West, there are several orders of magnitude less Russophobes in the West than in Russia.

          Something tells me that there are several orders of magnitude dreamers there than in Russia. Even Levitsky himself does not confirm the good shooting of Pearls. He himself says that little was done in combat training. And he shot so that the crew would take in battle, relieve tension. But Levitsky remembers the training in loading coal. Hello to Christmas .. :(
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 14 July 2019 20: 26 New
    +3
    To summarize, most of the time, two cruisers maneuvered inside
    building their battleships and transports, dodging collisions with them and
    stopping the battleships from firing.
    More chaos than good.
    It would be better if they were allowed independent actions outside the squadron, around it.
    Could drown one or two Japanese destroyers.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      14 July 2019 22: 04 New
      +1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      To summarize, most of the time, two cruisers maneuvered inside
      building their battleships and transports, dodging collisions with them and
      stopping the battleships from firing.

      This makes no sense...
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 14 July 2019 23: 52 New
        +1
        Why nonsense, a person has an opinion. request

        Good night, Andrei thanks for the interesting story about "time to collect Pebbles." I will wait for the continuation of the "time to scatter them." About the great drape from the battlefield. hi
    2. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 15 July 2019 00: 36 New
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      It would be better if they were allowed independent actions outside the squadron, around it.

      In fact, the Emerald reported that he continued to rehearse signals. There were no signals from Suvorov (from Rozhdestvensky) after the start of the battle, but he repeated the signals of Borodino and Nikolai. In any case, this was stated in the statement.
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 15 July 2019 09: 45 New
        +1
        Is it enough for a battle cruiser to rehearse signals to justify uselessness in battle?
        The battle quickly turned into a rout. And the cruiser commander could understand that there is still a chance to inflict some damage on the enemy. And do not repeat the echo of useless orders from the already deceased flagship.
        They could not fight the Japanese battleships, but they could decisively attack the destroyers. And they would soak a dry account of Tsushima.
        1. mmaxx
          mmaxx 16 July 2019 05: 45 New
          +1
          So the military must obey the order. Commanders and performed. This is where the genius of Rozhdestvensky comes to light. He already has few cruisers. So by his order he immediately made minus 2. The Japanese did not even have to do anything. Two cruisers loitered the whole battle back and forth.
          1. AK64
            AK64 16 July 2019 10: 24 New
            +1
            So the military must obey the order. Commanders and performed. This is where the genius of Rozhdestvensky comes to light. He already has few cruisers. So by his order he immediately made minus 2. The Japanese did not even have to do anything. Two cruisers loitered the whole battle back and forth.


            Tell us where the Christmas pebbles were supposed to put during the BREAK in LINEAR BATTLE? WHERE?

            Evil is not enough for such "theorists." Rozhdestvensky did everything right. Correctly. Do you understand? In full accordance with the ideas of TOGO time, and with common sense.

            What pebbles in battle? And how long would they fight?
            Maybe they should also be put in line? And what - a formidable force --- the end would immediately Toge
            1. mmaxx
              mmaxx 16 July 2019 19: 36 New
              +1
              It’s impossible to line, so let them hang around. They transmit signals that were not there and the order to fight did not foresee - you sheep follow the leader to Vladivostok. Notices and other trifles were engaged in such nonsense at all, although the destroyers could be adapted. The same "Diamond". But he with 3 (!!!) 75 mm (!!!) guns heroically defended the transport. And the “pebbles” with 8 120 mm are suitable only for rehearsal signals. Do not block off the ZPR.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 14 July 2019 20: 28 New
    +3
    It all started with Izumi, who made an attempt to approach the vehicles and shoot at them from the side of Vladimir Monomakh, when the latter joined the battle.

    It should be noted that the very presence of transports under Tsushima became another gross mistake of the wing of Admiral Rozhestvensky. Who else would have thought of dragging a convoy into a general battle? Regardless of the results of the battle, it was enough for the linear forces of the enemy, during maneuvering, to be between the Russian battleships and vehicles and the latter would inevitably die. However, almost all of them were shot as a result.
    1. mmaxx
      mmaxx 16 July 2019 05: 48 New
      +1
      This expresses the seal of genius. Like, without transports it is impossible. And thanks to transport, Rozhestvensky turned the squadron into an uncontrolled convoy. And he lost both the squadron and the transport.
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 14 July 2019 21: 14 New
    +3
    again, the "great classifier" granted ... am
    1. AK64
      AK64 14 July 2019 22: 47 New
      +2
      you have to be more tolerant of people. And even, I would say, more tolerant.
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 15 July 2019 00: 25 New
        +3
        Quote: AK64
        you have to be more tolerant of people.

        We endured it in AI for years, tried to reason, and then began to burn the troll with hot iron. The tired owner of the site, after Kolya began to threaten to organize an attack on the site, suggested that all moderators, in case this character appears with his delirium, immediately ban him.
        Here, on Military Review, he was banned in my memory up to ten times, and maybe even more.
        The main problems are his militant rudeness, hypertrophied inadequacy and an aggressive transition to personality in the case when he is pressed against the wall.
        1. arturpraetor
          arturpraetor 15 July 2019 00: 32 New
          +3
          Quote: Comrade
          and maybe more.

          As I said in this thread, the list of Nikolai’s nicknames kept on my laptop has an 42 (already) item. Of these, only 5-6 from the site of the AI, all the rest of the nicknames - from topvara. So, perhaps, more wassat
          1. Comrade
            Comrade 15 July 2019 00: 44 New
            +2
            Quote: arturpraetor
            the list of nicknames of Nicholas, which is maintained on my laptop, has 42 (already) items.

            Keep in the piggy bank, Artyom :-)
            helblitter - his nickname on Tsushima, it was Aley who identified him there.
            Quote: arturpraetor
            Of these, only 5-6 from the AI ​​site

            Yes there were many times more.
            I remember, somehow Byakin took up it. Ban Kolya, and he immediately registered under the same nickname, but with a different serial number, and well, to offend Byakin. He calmly bans Nikolash, and so five or six times during the day.
            We only wiped away the tears that came out of laughter :-)
            1. arturpraetor
              arturpraetor 15 July 2019 00: 47 New
              +2
              Thank you. I wonder when the list will reach laughing
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 15 July 2019 11: 55 New
            +3
            Quote: arturpraetor
            only 5-6 from the AI ​​site

            Actually more. Just at some point, Byakin and I began to ban him without publicity, on the fact of identification.
            1. arturpraetor
              arturpraetor 15 July 2019 12: 04 New
              +1
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              Actually more.

              I, as it were, came to AH after the main riot of Nicholas, so these 5-6 nicknames are from among the preserved archival discussions. Of course, there were obviously more of them, but who will find them now? request
        2. AK64
          AK64 15 July 2019 01: 20 New
          +4
          And yet I intercede, I allow myself, to mean:
          I know him for 25 years. Well, not all 25 years have been continuous - but for the first time, they met somewhere in '96. I know perfectly well that he is a Russophobe, and with a phobia turning into a pathology. But about rudeness ... I can’t remember such examples. Maybe all the same, at first too hot young people began to be rude to Nicholas en masse - and is he in response? Modern Russian young people (especially the patriotic-minded part of them) have quite a big backlash in a conversation. patriots begin to imagine themselves ....

          It’s hard for me to imagine Nicholas being rude — though, of course, people change, and usually for the worse: from time to time only cognac is better, and even that is only the first 20 years

          In general, he is dear to me as a memory of youth and stupidity.
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 15 July 2019 09: 08 New
            +3
            it would be logical, since they are taking a position, instead create a section: alternative opinions - and there write what you want)

            I’m stealing a straw for myself, but how am I also banned for not considering the ZPR a great naval commander? I’m joking
            1. AK64
              AK64 15 July 2019 11: 12 New
              +3
              You’ll not be banned: your “views” on VO are very popular.

              This is here, in the corner for the old man, you need to "know the materiel" and other nonsense. And you come out with such "looks" in any "political" topic - so you will get a bunch of laikosiks thrown at you. In the crews, wake up to travel, sir.
          2. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 15 July 2019 12: 00 New
            +4
            Quote: AK64
            But what about rudeness

            It was the case. Moreover, for stupid. He came up with nicknames, clung to nicknames. In short, how shkolota behaved.
            Quote: AK64
            Maybe, all the same, at first too hot young people began to be rude

            Unfortunately no. Sam s. Unless, of course, not counting requests for rudeness to document your "brilliant" discoveries.
            1. AK64
              AK64 15 July 2019 12: 38 New
              +1
              There was a case.

              Apparently, age: as I understand it, he is well over 60. Well, personal problems need to be thought: he is American, and he hoped he had to think for the best --- but it turned out, go, "as always."

              In general, I myself am eurotolerast, and therefore inclined to treat human weaknesses condescendingly. (Of course, until they start to sit on my head from weakness --- like a break)
          3. Comrade
            Comrade 15 July 2019 20: 59 New
            +1
            Correctly you, a colleague of AK64, stand up for "your" Nikolai. The name of the person you are writing about is Chernovil.
            I realized this when you mentioned the ABACUS website.
            Nikolai Chernovil is a really polite and calm person with a critical mindset and extensive erudition. Many people owe him, and his authority in the eyes of knowledgeable people is great.
            "Our" Kolya is much younger, perhaps twice or so, seven years ago, he lived in Moscow.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 16 July 2019 10: 16 New
              0
              If this is the one I knew (not sure), then he has an academic education in military history. He specializes in the American Navy. And he really fought on "business trips" in the American army in artillery. And, yes, he lived in Moscow for several years.
              And - yes - he loved to tease.
            2. AK64
              AK64 16 July 2019 10: 30 New
              +1
              Seriously? Not the one ?????

              Hmm .... The lexicon is the same, even in details (eg, "buckets with nuts"). Russophobia is the same. American ultra-patriotism is the same ... Well, where does the Muscovite have such a "bowing to America"? (It is America)

              It seems to me that this is the same person. Just probably changing the mask.

              But if you are right and this is different - then I agree with you - the troll then.
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 15 July 2019 00: 03 New
      0
      Good night, Ivan! hi

      Remember how in the "Prisoner of the Caucasus" Shurik suggested figuring out a pair of loonies in a madhouse on three?
      He was then answered: "It is sinful to laugh at sick people", (C). wassat
      1. AK64
        AK64 15 July 2019 01: 23 New
        +2
        Did you also know Shura?
        (For those who do not understand: this is one of the first nicknames of Nicholas, 25 years ago)
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 15 July 2019 13: 23 New
          0
          Where, I graze here relatively recently, it's just that analogues with a madhouse are asking themselves. Sometimes it seems to me that this is our unforgettable and ever-living Carbine - the same shizni, only on a small subject.
          1. arturpraetor
            arturpraetor 15 July 2019 13: 31 New
            +1
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Sometimes it seems to me that this is our unforgettable and ever-living Carbine.

            They are. For the Passers-by, tobish Nikolai, a special love is noticed on several topics, just the RIF is one of the most well-loved ones, here it is celebrated most often. EMNIP, it was still on the Soviet army in the Second World War (where could it be without it?), Artillery (where he earned the nickname “Kohl 65mm”), and a little about economics, although I can be confused - all this happened before my direct confrontation with this, huh, a colleague.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 15 July 2019 13: 37 New
              +1
              There was another, with the nickname Major Whirlwind, which at first was mistaken for Carbine. But then they somehow appeared together on one article. In short, Maёr cheated on everyone and was quickly banned. So far has not appeared. He has a phase shift on a two-row magazine and a cartridge with a reduced flange.
              1. arturpraetor
                arturpraetor 15 July 2019 13: 41 New
                +2
                Quote: Sea Cat
                There was another one, with the nickname Major Whirlwind, which at first was mistaken for Carbine. But then they somehow spoke together on the same article.

                Registering bots and talking to yourself, creating the appearance of support is another magic feature of this character, noticed a long time ago on the website of alt-history laughing So correctly accepted yes By the way, I forgot to add this nickname last time - so now it’s already 44 on the list ...
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 15 July 2019 13: 52 New
                  +1
                  But for sure! There was always one character who always supported the Mayer. Then he disappeared right after the "mayor". Now, only now I remembered. laughing
                  1. arturpraetor
                    arturpraetor 15 July 2019 13: 57 New
                    +2
                    In general, now the clinical picture is clear and you laughing It is, of course, not quite right to laugh in such cases, because it smacks of real mental problems in a person ... But it’s hard not to laugh in such cases.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 15 July 2019 14: 06 New
                      +1
                      I agree with you, Artyom. hi That's why I remembered the madhouse in the "Caucasian Captive", it seems to be "sinful to laugh at sick people", but on the other hand, it’s difficult to resist. laughing
                  2. Comrade
                    Comrade 17 July 2019 05: 05 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    There was always one character who always supported the Mayer.

                    Oooh We have a similar picture on AI. One or two new people appear on the site, they behave calmly and adequately, little by little the reputation begins to appear.
                    Then Kolya Passerby enters the arena, carries nonsense, up to ten people enter into polemics, and then the two immediately come running and begin not to argue with us, no, but to have a conversation with Kolya, like, oh, how good and right You speak.
                    And the “assistants” worked subtly. They did not just praise him - one usually criticized lightly, but on the whole fiercely, furiously approved. And the second colin of thoughts began to develop and improve, as if showing everyone how valuable ideas were.
                    And then it turned out that these types are not really real people, it was Kolya who had a simultaneous conversation with us and among themselves on behalf of three persons. He asked himself questions and immediately answered them. In a word, imitated the crowd.
                    And this, colleague, is not an isolated case, it happened quite often.
                    Here he doesn’t tick on VO with him, so he just doesn’t have time to deploy his big top and get into the topic one or two “assistants”.
                    1. Trapperxnumx
                      Trapperxnumx 17 July 2019 08: 44 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Comrade
                      He asked himself questions and immediately answered them.

                      It's nice to talk with a good person)))))
          2. AK64
            AK64 15 July 2019 13: 58 New
            +1
            Where, I graze here relatively recently,

            Shura was a long time ago, which is why I was surprised. This is 25 years ago, and Nikolay then kept the ABACUS website

            Sometimes it seems to me that this is our unforgettable and ever-living Carbine - the same shizni, only on a small subject.

            They are. But you are in vain about the "shizni": if you filter out Russophobia and American ultra-patriotism, then in the writing of Nicholas it makes perfect sense.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 15 July 2019 20: 11 New
              +1
              I will not argue for the fleet, I have purely amateur information. But about the shooting - definitely rushing frank shizuhi. We have a certified doctor here, so he made an accurate diagnosis and there is no need to doubt him. request
  • arturpraetor
    arturpraetor 14 July 2019 21: 17 New
    +7
    Gentlemen, Nikolai visited us again (aka Passer-by) laughing Andrew, here you know how to lure this person wassat
  • Ognjen26
    Ognjen26 15 July 2019 00: 20 New
    +2
    Typo: in one place Instead of O.A. Enquist is indicated by O.A. [Essen].
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      15 July 2019 14: 28 New
      +1
      Quote: Ognjen26
      Typo: in one place Instead of O.A. Enquist is indicated by O.A. [Essen].

      Freudian slip:)))))
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 15 July 2019 18: 38 New
    +1
    Dear Andre!
    You constantly write about Rozhdestvensky’s plan for battle. Is there any evidence: testimony to the investigation, letters, at least something that would indicate that the plan was? Or is it all diduction?
    It seems to me that coming up with a plan for ZPR 100 years later is somehow strange.
    1. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 15 July 2019 22: 17 New
      +1
      Quote: mmaxx
      You constantly write about Rozhdestvensky’s plan for battle. Is there any evidence: testimony to the investigation, letters, at least something that would indicate that the plan was?

      As far as I understand, Andrei is just trying to prove that the absence of a system as well as the absence of plans for battle are Rozhdestvensky's ingenious contribution to naval art. And this tells Andrey, that same diduction, there were no other documents or facts. laughing
    2. AK64
      AK64 16 July 2019 10: 35 New
      +1
      You constantly write about Rozhdestvensky’s plan for battle. Is there any evidence: testimony to the investigation, letters, at least something that would indicate that the plan was? Or is it all diduction?


      And how do you imagine the battle plan? In the form of a piece of paper with arrows?

      Rozhdestvensky’s plan was and was obvious: they will break into Vladik. And to mean:
      (1) if possible, avoid combat
      (2) in the event of a battle, rely on superiority in artillery.
      (3) by all means to break into Vladik

      Actually, he could not plan anything but.
      Well, plus this is his (quite witty, I must say) debut decision
      1. mmaxx
        mmaxx 16 July 2019 19: 24 New
        0
        Something like that. And then somehow everywhere one sounds. The commanders knew only one thing: the sovereign ordered to Vladivostok who the first herd was leading.
        In general, maybe I'm ruined by owls. army, but the very last sergeant always commanded his name. References to other commanders (such as a sovereign) are not considered. With this ZPR I signed for the fact that I had nothing to do with it, we went to Vladik, as we were told, that's all.
        1. AK64
          AK64 16 July 2019 20: 57 New
          0
          at that time, "the Sovereign commanded" merely meant "the order is not discussed at all"
          Witgeft likewise referred to the sovereign's will. And he said exactly the same thing (in response to a question-demand “what’s the plan?” ----- “as I drive, you’ll go”)
          In the absence of other admirals in the squadron, there could be nothing but “follow the matelot”.
          1. mmaxx
            mmaxx 17 July 2019 04: 14 New
            0
            Why is everyone so sure that there was no other way? Such an innovation was applied only by ZPR. The battle programed immediately. And no one has ever dealt with such nonsense either before or after.
            In any organization, the deputies of the chief are the same chiefs, but in a slightly narrower section. Do not trust them with leadership - this is a sign of inability to lead in general. Even people like Napoleon broke down on this. And ZPR is far from Napoleon.
            1. AK64
              AK64 17 July 2019 09: 03 New
              +1
              Why is everyone so sure that there was no other way?

              what "no way"? Express yourself more clearly.

              Such an innovation was applied only by ZPR.

              What is the “innovation”?
              Learn to finally express yourself clearly

              The battle programed immediately.

              Why is it "immediately" if they fought for half a day?

              And no one has ever dealt with such nonsense either before or after.

              What nonsense? Am I supposed to guess your "thoughts"?
              This is how you learn to write - so come

              In any organization, the deputies of the chief are the same chiefs, but in a slightly narrower section. Do not trust them with leadership - this is a sign of inability to lead in general. Even people like Napoleon broke down on this. And ZPR is far from Napoleon.

              Rozhdestvensky did not have "deputies." Not issued from the warehouse.
              There was one Felkersam — and he died.
              Admirals did not break into battle to go --- they preferred to lead from under the Spitz. They did not give Rozhdestvensky (taking away all battle-worthy ships) two or three more admirals.
              And for good, you would need two admirals per unit + the commander himself.

              And in the absence of those whom to "trust" - what claims can be that "did not trust"?

              You would, if you were smart, would ask better the question why there were so few admirals on Rozhdestvensky’s squadron. 70 admirals were in Russia --- but how to go into battle, so only two were found --- Makarov and Rozhdestvensky
              1. mmaxx
                mmaxx 17 July 2019 11: 16 New
                +1
                1. Innovation is to follow the lead. This is nonsense. This has never happened anywhere. And the result is known. And the squadron fought for half a day precisely because the Japanese nailed Rozhdestvensky quickly. And then with such talents it would all end even earlier. Without it, at least sometimes meaningfulness existed in the operations of the squadron.
                2. I’m not writing an article from scratch. The whole chain of dialogue can be traced perfectly. And the commander is not a surname and a rank. This is a post. And there is always someone to fulfill a position. As they say - a holy place, it does not happen empty. There are no best of the best, you take the best of the worst. No structure can exist without a chapter. And if the business is organized in such a way that without one boss everything collapses, then the boss and the poor organizer. And here the squadron from almost all the remaining combat-ready Russian fleets does not have the commander of deputies .... I can say what he does not have.
                And the fact that Rozhestvensky did not trust anyone and considered everyone, let’s say this: much lower than himself in terms of intellectual capabilities, can be traced throughout.
                3. And I ask my quick wits not to affect. I do not like my opinion - I ask you to argue with him. My or someone else's quick wits don't concern anyone. If necessary, I will answer in such a way that it does not seem enough. And the defenders of organizational talent ZPR I do not understand vapsche.
                Andrei, at least he won how much material he dug up and presented on a platter. He can express his opinion at least for controversy. What are you doing here? The idea that deputies ZPR did not give out move ???? Who was supposed to give out? From which warehouse? A squadron was being formed in the Baltic and everyone was assigned to it (issued). Can you imagine the substitution order? So it is completely automatic. It only takes care.
                1. AK64
                  AK64 17 July 2019 14: 34 New
                  0
                  1. Innovation is to follow the lead. This is nonsense. This has never happened anywhere.

                  "Innovation"? Never and nowhere? This is a classic linear tactic - the goose pace of battleships. The whole history of naval warfare is just that.

                  And the result is known.

                  What is "famous"? Is it “known” that in a linear battle there is one winner and one loser? It is yes - "known"

                  And the squadron fought for half a day precisely because the Japanese nailed Rozhdestvensky quickly. And then with such talents it would all end even earlier. Without it, at least sometimes meaningfulness existed in the operations of the squadron.

                  I see no reason to somehow comment on stupidity and rudeness.
                  One could, of course, note that "everyone considers himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side"

                  2. I’m not writing an article from scratch. The whole chain of dialogue can be traced perfectly.

                  If it were "traceable", then no one would quote the post to which he answers.
                  And guess your thoughts .... somehow there is no desire

                  And the commander is not a surname and a rank. This is a post. And there is always someone to fulfill a position. As they say - a holy place, it does not happen empty. There are no best of the best, you take the best of the worst. No structure can exist without a chapter. And if the business is organized in such a way that without one boss everything collapses, then the boss and the poor organizer. And here the squadron from almost all the remaining combat-ready Russian fleets does not have the commander of deputies .... I can say what he does not have.

                  This makes no sense...
                  Gentlemen, did I understand him correctly that he thinks that in the army, or in the navy, it is possible "wherever I want to go there!"? And "we do not need impostors - I will be the commander"

                  Some kind of kindergarten, the word is honest

                  And the fact that Rozhestvensky did not trust anyone and considered everyone, let’s say this: much lower than himself in terms of intellectual capabilities, can be traced throughout.

                  Why didn’t you trust? He trusted someone. For example, he trusted Felkersam - but only Felkersam died, could not stand the stress and hardships.
                  It’s just like you think that that trip was like a boat cruise

                  3. And I ask my quick wits not to affect. I do not like my opinion - I ask you to argue with him.

                  Yes, you don’t have any “opinion” - there is a set of nonsense laid down to you from childhood, and nothing more. This is not an “opinion”: an opinion is developed from knowledge - which you do not have. So there’s nothing to argue with.

                  My or someone else's quick wits don't concern anyone. If necessary, I will answer in such a way that it does not seem enough.

                  Kindergarten

                  And the defenders of organizational talent ZPR I do not understand vapsche.

                  Maybe this is because you do not know something?
                  Here you look at the local public: it is precisely those who clearly know the facts and can say something concrete --- they do not make claims against Rozhdestvensky. But on the other hand, those who obviously do not know anything on the topic are constantly making claims.
                  And why would it be like that?

                  Andrei, at least he won how much material he dug up and presented on a platter. He can express his opinion at least for controversy. What are you doing here?

                  Like, get it first? But then let’s say this: if I do not have the right to speak out, then you really just have to climb under the broom and not protrude. Let’s agree on this.
                  Well, since I did not shut your mouth - I myself, of course, have the right to speak. And here you are - since you are trying to shut up my mouth - no, you don’t have it: it will be honest.

                  The idea that deputies ZPR did not give out move ???? Who was supposed to give out? From which warehouse? A squadron was being formed in the Baltic and everyone was assigned to it (issued). Can you imagine the substitution order? So it is completely automatic. It only takes care.

                  Oh my God....
                  Squeal, squeak, ignorance ....

                  I explain slowly: the Japanese had TWO admirals for each linear combat detachment. And all in all - 4 admirals only in linear forces. On 12 ships in a line. Rozhdestvensky had 2 detachments — he was alone. And Nebogatov on the 3rd detachment. A total of 12 ships in the line - 2 admirals.
                  Despite the fact that from Nebogatov the admiral as from ... unimportant. in general: seeing very well that the BOTH fragments (Rozhestvensky and Felkersam) dropped out, Nebogatov did not even move to take command and begin to command something. As, however, and Enquist.
                  Given the long way and possible diseases, with Rozhestvensky should send another 2-3 admirals, and with Nebogatov as another mine.
                  But Messrs. Admirals somehow did not break into battle --- preferring to retroactively criticize and discuss. Only two were found: Makarov and Rozhdestvensky. And already, if only for this reason, YOU should treat Christmas with a bit of respect
                  1. mmaxx
                    mmaxx 17 July 2019 16: 16 New
                    0
                    I advise you to read YOUR nonsense again.
                    1. AK64
                      AK64 17 July 2019 17: 01 New
                      0
                      Ahhhhhh ...
                      \ and waved his hand \

                      Nevertheless, I give you some advice: do not rush to judge the deceased and speak badly of them --- it can always happen that you simply don’t know something about them
          2. Nehist
            Nehist 17 July 2019 15: 50 New
            +1
            In general, Witgeft, in addition to the order to go to Vladivostok, gave a not ambiguous order. Do not return to Arthur, in case it is impossible to break through with severe damage, intern in neutral ports. Rozhdestvensky did not even think of this
            1. AK64
              AK64 17 July 2019 16: 07 New
              -1
              In general, Witgeft, in addition to the order to go to Vladivostok, gave a not ambiguous order. Do not return to Arthur, in case it is impossible to break through with severe damage, intern in neutral ports. Rozhdestvensky did not even think of this

              it's just a miracle what is ....

              I don’t even ask where there are neutral ports nearby --- God be with him, probably they are, since Alexander says.
              But gentlemen, officers are such a bastard that only hint to them about capabilities, so they will swim to the United States --- just to not go into battle. And then they will prove that they absolutely did not have the opportunity to fight, and even accomplished a feat --- saving the carp, people and (most important) themselves to serve their beloved Sovereign.

              Rozhestvensky had nowhere to hide, he didn’t have a PA behind him, and there were no neutral ports. He had to make a breakthrough, break through in the hope of inflicting serious losses on the enemy. And even in "neutral ports" some quickly found a way without any order, and here orders are not needed.
  • Comrade
    Comrade 16 July 2019 04: 37 New
    +1
    Quote: AK64
    The Garibaldians .... They never confirmed the data indicated in the passport - and therefore the Japanese put them in the 1th military detachment (they did not give the declared speed).

    Sorry, colleague, but they were included there for other reasons.
    After the war, according to a report by Captain Jackson, the Japanese fleet was reorganized, and the "Garibaldians" were removed from the First Combat Unit.
    This is how the main forces of the Japanese fleet began to look after the end of the Russo-Japanese war.

    As you can see, the "Garibaldians" were put in the same squad as the "Yakumo" and "Adzuma", which, according to the report of the English attache, during the Tsushima battle, despite serious operational overload, they confidently kept Kamimura in the squad seventeen nodes.
    1. AK64
      AK64 16 July 2019 10: 45 New
      +1
      Well, indirect evidence that the Garibaldians (at least in the Japanese service - but I think that in general everywhere) have never issued more than 18 nodes, there are quite a lot.
      In general, Italian design is typically characterized by excellent qualities .... in the Mediterranean. (And at the parades --- the view is beautiful, they know how)
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 16 July 2019 15: 50 New
        +2
        How could they give more 18 units during operation if, on acceptance tests, both showed a maximum with natural traction 18 with a tail?
        And their coal supply, especially in Tsushima, was much higher than normal.
        1. AK64
          AK64 16 July 2019 17: 04 New
          +1
          This is not about Tsushima, but about "generally the value of these ships."
        2. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 16 July 2019 17: 16 New
          0
          Well, taking into account the contours and specific power density, I think, less than 20 knots for any boost, there will be counterarguments - I’m ready to take
          1. Comrade
            Comrade 17 July 2019 02: 04 New
            +1
            Quote: Andrei Shmelev
            taking into account the contours and specific power ratio, I think, less than 20 nodes for any boost

            After installing new, improved propellers, "Nisshin" on the 14 896 l on both cruisers. with. and xnumx rpm reached xnumx nodes.
    2. Trapperxnumx
      Trapperxnumx 16 July 2019 16: 48 New
      0
      Quote: Comrade
      This is how the main forces of the Japanese fleet began to look after the end of the Russo-Japanese war.

      Something I don’t see either Eagle, Retvisan, or other Relights ....
      1. arturpraetor
        arturpraetor 16 July 2019 16: 59 New
        +2
        Probably, at the time of compiling the list, they were under restoration / modernization, and the list itself was compiled shortly after the end of the war. As we can see, only Nebogatov’s ships, which went to the Japanese almost intact, were included in the list of trophies, with the exception of the “Eagle”, which was the only one from the Nebogatov detachment that was a broken floating ruin.
        1. AK64
          AK64 17 July 2019 09: 06 New
          0
          it was a broken floating ruin.

          Yes, drop it: “First you look - it’s scary to look. And as you look --- there are no serious injuries.” He was beaten up badly - but far from “ruin”
      2. Comrade
        Comrade 17 July 2019 01: 53 New
        +1
        Quote: Trapper7
        Something I do not see either Eagle

        "Eagle" after repair and modernization aka "Iwami" went into operation November 26 1907

        Quote: Trapper7
        neither Retvisan nor other Peresvet

        "Retvisan" was raised 22 September 1905 g., Went into operation aka "Hizen" in November 1908 g.
        "Relight" was raised 29 June 1905 g., Went into operation aka "Sagami" in 1908 g.
        "Victory" was raised 17 October 1905 g., Went into operation aka "Suvo" in 1908 g.