"Pearls" and "Emerald" in Tsushima. The actions of the cruisers in the day battle 14 May

266
Considering the actions of the Pearl and Emerald armored cruisers on the first day of the Tsushima battle, there are three main stages: from dawn to the start of the main forces in 13.49 Russian time; from 13.49 to 16.00 tentatively, when the cruisers tried to solve the tasks assigned to them before the battle ZP Rozhdestvensky, as well as with 16.00 and until the end of the day battle. In the last period of time, the Emerald was still trying to fulfill its role as a “rehearsal and rescue” ship under the main forces, and the Pearl joined the cruisers of Rear Admiral O.A. Enquist





Before the battle


Events before 13.49 of the day were described in detail earlier, just to remind you that both Pearl and Emerald were in the main forces and were not removed from the reconnaissance squadron. There were three main reasons for this:

1. Intelligence makes sense only when it allows the enemy fleet to be detected and monitored before the meeting of the main forces. The 2-th and 3-Pacific cruiser squadrons were too small and weak for reconnaissance operations and could not solve this problem;

2. Regardless of the reasons for paragraph 1., The reconnaissance attempt could have been made, but given the direction the main Japanese forces were expected to approach from (north), there were strong cruiser Japanese forces that would lead to battle of cruisers unequal for us conditions. In this case, the Russian cruiser detachment would have squandered its combat capability even before the start of the battle in which it was to guard the transports, and, apparently, could no longer protect them;

3. The key reason for the rejection of cruise intelligence, according to the author, was the plan for the battle Z.P. Rozhestvensky, who meant rebuilding into battle order in view of the main forces of the enemy. For the success of this plan, there was no need to either conduct reconnaissance or prevent the enemy’s reconnaissance ships, since the Japanese commander should have known that the Russians were marching and building a plan of attack for the main forces of the Russian squadron on this basis.

Pearl Actions to 16.00


At the beginning of the battle, the Russian squadron fought on the left, "Pearls" and "Emerald" were from the right, fulfilling the duties of repetitive ships, and in addition, they had to cover the main forces from mine attacks and give help to the beaten out ships. As it was described in the previous article, “Pearls” did just that, but, mistakenly assuming that the Japanese were crossing over to the right side of the squadron, cut through its system in order to be on the left flank and thus pleased right between the fighting columns. Then he, as it were, “descended down” to the terminal ships of the Russian squadron, and again went over to its right side. However, not wanting to interfere with the volleyball of the coastal defense battleship, the "General-Admiral Apraksin" slowed down, causing the submarine "Ural", which had almost lost controllability, made a pile on the "Pearl", and in the "Urals" believed that " crushed "" Emerald. " After that, Pearl tried to move forward, but saw the damaged battleship, and approached it, believing that it was the flagship Prince Suvorov, although in reality it was Alexander III. At this time, Russian destroyers passed by the “Pearls”, one of which saw the flag officer Z.P. Rozhdestvenskogo Clapier de Colong, hence the assumption that the entire headquarters, and the admiral is also on the destroyer. The Japanese battleships approached Alexander III, and the commander of Pearls, P.P. Levitsky, having no chance to support the battleship (the only mine apparatus that the cruiser could use in conditions of agitation was damaged during the collision with the "Ural"), of course, retreated. “Pearl” went after the destroyers, believing that the admiral would wish to go to the cruiser outside the fire zone, but this did not happen, and later, around 16.00, “Pearl” joined the cruiser detachment of Rear Admiral OA Enkvist, taking part in the protection of transports from the attack of Japanese cruisers. What did the Emerald do at this time?

Emerald actions from 13.49 to 16.00


This cruiser, under the command of Baron Vasily Nikolaevich Ferzen, by order of Z.P. Rozhestvensky performed the same functions as the Pearls, but with the 2 armored detachment headed by Oslyabye, while the Pearls with the 1 consisted of Borodino-type battleships. With the beginning of the battle of the main forces, the Emerald pulled away over the trawls of Oslyabi, and for a while nothing interesting happened to him.

The cruiser made its first active actions soon after Oslyabya completely lost its combat capability. As is known, the latter in 14.45 failed with a strong trim on the nose and a roll on the left side, turned on the countercourse to the squadron (that is, on 180 hail) and stopped the cars. Nevertheless, the commander of the Emerald did not consider that the flagship of the 2 armored squadron needed his help. But the Oslyab roll quickly grew while the main forces of the Russian squadron passed by the battleship, and when the Oslyabya turned out to be in front of the end 3 of the armored squad, it unexpectedly quickly turned over.

According to the report V.N. Ferzen, he sent the "Emerald" to the dying armadillo, when he saw that Oslyabya was in distress: perhaps it was about the moment when the latter began to roll over. In addition to the "Emerald" to the site of the tragedy, the 4 of the destroyer, including "Violent" and "Bravy", also went. They were the first to have time and saved people with might and main when the Emerald approached: from the last one they threw beds, buoys and one whaleboat without rowers, the cruiser itself stopped.

What happened next is not entirely clear. So, for example, V.V. Khromov points out that the Emerald carried out the rescue of people until he saw the ships of the 3 armor unit approaching him and then had to depart in order not to interfere with the battleships. However, the author of this article is not clear how this could be: a similar interpretation does not coincide too much with the possible maneuvering of units in battle. Most likely, dear V.V. Khromov was guided by the report of V.N. Ferzen, but I must admit that in this part he is very suspicious. Here is how the commander of the Emerald cruiser saw this moment of the battle:

“A few moments after stopping at the site of Oslyabya’s death, I noticed that I was disturbing the maneuvers of the battleships marching on me; when and how they turned - I do not know. I saw the battleships of the 3 squadron head, and behind them the 3 battleships of the 2 squadron; the first armored detachment, being on the sidelines, defended the “Suvorov”, which had masts, the trumpet and all the upper superstructures, and on which there was a strong fire ”.


Most likely, the events described occurred closer to 16.00, when the Borodino squadron led: by this time, the structure of the Russian ships was really pretty mixed up. Borodino was the first to go, the Eagle followed him, and then Sisoy the Great, but the latter, having been damaged, went out of order, so that its place was taken by the Emperor Nicholas I. He was followed by all three battleships of coastal defense, and only then by him in the wake, the Navarin, the Admiral Nakhimov, and the returned Alexander III. Probably, it was these ships V.N. Fersen took the battleships of the 2 squad to be the battleships - and was, in general, not far from the truth.

Pearls and Emerald after 16.00


And so, at about four o'clock in the afternoon, it turned out that the armored detachments of the "wards" with "Pearls" and "Emerald" left only two ships, and the flagships in the other detachment failed. What happened next? Unfortunately, sources do not give a definite answer to this question. So, A.A. Alliluev and M.A. Bogdanov argues that approximately in 16.00, Pearl and Emerald joined the cruiser detachment defending the transports, while others (VV Khromov, for example) indicate that O.A. Enkvist was joined only by the "Pearl".

In order to understand how things were in reality, let us briefly consider what the cruiser detachment of the Russian squadron was doing at that moment. Their maneuvers and combat is a topic for a large separate work, so it makes sense to confine ourselves only to the most general description of cruising combat.

It all started with "Izumi", who made an attempt to get closer to the transports and bombard them with "Vladimir Monomakh" when the latter entered the battle. Rear Admiral O.A. Enquist, apparently thought of destroying the Japanese cruiser, since he went to the Oleg with the Aurora and Dmitry Donskoy to the rescue — Izumi fled. However, then the 3 and 4 combat troops of the Japanese appeared: “Kasagi”, “Chitose”, “Otova” and “Niitaka” under the command of Vice Admiral Deva and “Naniwa”, “Takachiho”, “Akashi” and “Tsushima” Under the flag of Vice Admiral Uriu. In 14.30, the battle began, and the Japanese were twice as good as the number of pennants. In 15.10, OA Enquist turned on 16 points (180 grad.) In order to disperse with the Japanese countercourse, passing between them and the transports (probably, by that time the Russian cruisers were far from the last), but the Japanese repeated the Russian rear admiral. And after only 10 minutes, three more Japanese cruisers approached 15.20: Suma, Chiyoda and Akitsushima, making the aspect ratio unprofitable for Russian ships.


Flagship cruiser OA Ankvist "Oleg" before leaving to the Far East


However, the Japanese fire was not very accurate, as O.A. Enquist, and our cruisers could hold. Moreover, when the disastrous situation of “Prince Suvorov” was discovered at 15.35, the rear admiral led his cruiser and Aurora to the rescue, leaving only Vladimir Monomakh and Dmitry Donskoy to cover the transports - but seeing that the Russians Armadillos move in the direction of "Suvorov", returned to the transports in order to continue the unequal battle. According to O.A. Enquist looked like this:

"About 4 hours" Oleg "and" Aurora ", seeing the squadron approaching to help Suvorov and noticing the dangerous position of the transports, which were on the side of the enemy armored cruisers, with the signal from" Oleg "," Vladimir Monomakh "and" Dmitry Donskoy ", went to rapprochement with the enemy; turning to the right, “Pearls” and “Emerald” also joined the cruising detachment, the presence of which in the battleships could not bring any benefit ”.


The commander of the "Pearl" described this moment of the battle in a similar way, but still a little differently. P.P. Levitsky saw the situation in such a way that "Oleg", "Aurora", "Dmitry Donskoy" and "Vladimir Monomakh", moving in the wake of a convoy, fight 10 with enemy light cruisers (the term PP Levitsky was written in his report , and this is the correct figure, since “Takachiho”, as a result of hitting the Russian projectile that damaged the steering wheel, was forced to leave the battlefield for a while) at a distance of the order of 20-25 cables. Apparently, PP Levitsky, as well as O.A. Enquist, considered that his continued stay with the battleships of the main forces would not help anything, and preferred to support the cruisers. He himself described his decision:

“Seeing that the enemy cruisers were pushing ours away, I entered the wake of Vladimir Monomakh to take part in the battle, assist our cruisers and give the crew the opportunity to shoot at a visible enemy.”


Thus, the "Pearl" really joined the ships O.A. Enquist, but there are some doubts about the Emerald. Of course, in his report, the Rear Admiral directly stated that the cruiser VN Ferzen joined his ships, but the phrase of P.P. Levitsky: “Izumrud also joined the cruisers:“ Almaz ”and“ Svetlana ”also took part in this battle” can also be understood that the accession of “Izumrud” was that he engaged in battle with the same enemy, as the OA cruisers Enquist The most important thing is that the commander of the Emerald VN. Fersen did not say a word in his report that he had joined his ship to the cruisers. As a matter of fact, his description of the events in the 16.00 area is as follows:

“At the time of building cruisers and armadillos of the 3-th and 2-th units merged; I attached myself outside the circle of this system, against the interval between the Nakhimov (front) and Oleg, and supported the fire on the enemy cruisers. Ahead of me, next to the next interval, also outside, was the "Almaz"; at that time, part of the squadron, to which I joined, was fired at by the enemy main forces on the right, and by cruisers — on the left. It was very difficult to follow the course of the battle, since all our attention had to be paid to controlling the cruiser, so as not to encounter any of the transports that had lost any order, and the destroyers, who continually cut through the line: they had to repeatedly rear or stopping of the car, thanks to which it was necessary to poison the steam in the refrigerators, by which the latter were blown up and subsequently allowed to flow. ”


In other words, it seems that closer to 16.00, when Russian battleships as a result of a series of maneuvers seemed to return to the transports they had left earlier, it turned out that the latter, following rather chaotically, found themselves between Russian battleships and cruisers, and into this heap and pleased "Emerald". He did not join anyone, but “all the time he kept firing at enemy ships coming to the corner of shelling” (according to VN Ferzen). Apparently, the best armored cruisers of the Japanese were visible from the Emerald, which created the illusion that this cruiser was attached to the ships of O.A. Enquist


"Emerald" in the campaign to Tsushima. In the foreground - the destroyer "Grozny"


In any case, it should be noted that after 16.00 and, approximately, before 17.15, when the battle, in the words of the compilers of the official stories Tsushima battle "a few verse", "Pearls" and "Emerald" had to participate in a fierce battle. It would seem that from 16.10 to 17.15 the position of “Oleg”, “Aurora”, “Vladimir Monomakh” and “Dmitry Donskoy” improved a little because they were also supported by “Pearls”, “Izumrud” and “Svetlana” with “Almaz” so the ratio between the armored cruisers was already 10: 8 in favor of the Japanese, if, of course, we considered the “Diamond” with its 4 * 75-mm guns for a real cruiser. But in fact, no improvement occurred, since the ships of Rear Admiral OA Enquist came under crossfire. According to the report of Rear Admiral: “Next, in order to lie parallel to the Japanese cruisers, our cruisers began to lean to the left. During these turns, the cruiser detachment was under crossfire from one side of the armored cruisers, on the other - the Nissin and Kasuga. And O.A. Enquist noted that it was at this time that his head “Oleg” and “Aurora” received the most sensitive injuries. Which, however, is completely unsurprising: the Japanese tried to translate their best gunners into armadillos and armored cruisers, so that they fired much better than armored cruisers.

However, both Japanese and Russian armored cruisers received support - Admiral Kataoka came to the aid of the Japanese from the Chin-Yen and three Matsushima, and in addition, the armored cruisers H. Kamimura caught up with the Russian squadron. But the ships and O.A. Enquist received support from their battleships not connected in combat with the 1 th combat detachment of H. Togo. I must say that in this episode, the Japanese "armored massacrers" got the hardest: the forces were forced to leave Kasagi and Naniwa, and the affairs of Kasagi were so serious that Cheetos had to accompany him to the Bay of Aburadani. "Naniwa" managed to quickly fix it, and soon returned to his squad.

In this episode of the battle, the active participation of Pearls, and, most likely, Emerald, ended even before 17.00, since the Japanese cruisers, having been damaged, retreated and went beyond the effective fire of cruisers. As for the mutual position of the cruising and armored detachments, the cruisers along with the “Pearls” were somewhat behind the battleships, and then were forced to catch up. Near 120, the wake column of cruisers caught up with the main forces and settled in the 17.30-12 (according to various sources) cable from them, while the “Oleg” was going abeam the “Emperor Nicholas I”. So, there is no doubt that "Pearls" all the time the battle was with the cruisers, following the "Vladimir Monomakh" all this time. But what Emerald was doing at that time is unclear, but judging by the description of V.N. Ferzen did not enter the column of cruisers, and closer to the 15 his cruiser was abeam the Emperor Nicholas I, that is, he was between this battleship and the flagship cruiser O.A. Ankvist "Oleg".

By this time, the armored cruisers of the Japanese returned and the cruising battle resumed, and both the Pearl and the Emerald took an active part in it. At the same time, the “Pearl” kept the cruisers OA Enquist, though, perhaps, did not follow them in the wake of the wake, and the Emerald was fighting in starboard, while being in the battleships. The battle of the cruisers, however, did not drag on, continuing to a maximum of 18.00 or even less.

On this day the battle for "Pearls" ended, but the team "Emerald" still had a thrill. In 18.30, it was observed that a flame between the chimneys appeared on the Alexander III, and it went down: it quickly tilted and turned over.


"Emperor Alexander III" as part of the 2 th Pacific Squadron


The Emerald immediately went to the crash site. Approaching the overturned ship (the keel of the “Alexander III” was above the water), the Emerald stopped, and began to throw bunks, circles and other tackle, which the drowning people could hold onto, and in addition began to launch the rowing boat, because whaleboats at that time were either damaged or filled with water on the eve of the battle and could not be used. But at that time, the 2 combat squadron approached the site of the death of the “Alexander III”: the 6 of the armored cruisers of H. Kamimura, including the returned Asama. Of course, the Japanese ships immediately opened fire on the cruiser standing in place, and the Russian squadron could not cover the Emerald, as its terminal ships were already in 2 miles from it, and the distance to the enemy exceeded 40 cables. To honor V.N. Ferzen, the Emerald remained in place until the distance to the nearest Japanese cruiser decreased to the 23 cable, and only then ordered to give full speed. Since, of course, this could not be done all at once, the Emerald was moving closer to the Japanese ships before the 20 cable before it could break the distance and retreat to the main forces of the Russian squadron.

At this point, the participation of "Pearls" and "Emerald" in the 14 May Day battle can be considered complete. What can be said about the actions of these cruisers?

Some conclusions


Unfortunately, participation in the Tsushima battle of Russian armored cruisers of the 2 rank in Tsushima in the most accessible sources (V. V. Khromov, A. A. Alliluev, M. A. Bogdanov) is described very sparingly. According to him, it seems that the Russian cruisers did not really fight, but were only present during the defeat of the Russian squadron, and meanwhile, this is absolutely not the case. The period of passive waiting, when "Pearls" and "Emerald" did not try to get involved in the battle, playing the role of "repetitive and anti-mine vessels", assigned to them by Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, continued from 13.49 to 16.00. Yes, and it turned out to be a “diluted” dashing “Pearl” raid between the wake columns of fighting squadrons, even if it was made by mistake. And then, from about 16.00 to 18.00, both Pearls and Emerald fought an intense and hot battle with the Japanese armored cruisers.

Novik’s actions at Port Arthur on 27 on January 1904, when the small cruiser “attacked” the Japanese squadron, moving closer to the 15-17 cables, deservedly received the most enthusiastic reviews. But the "Pearl" with the "Emerald" also often found themselves in close proximity to heavy Japanese ships. “Pearls”, moving to the left side of the squadron, dangerously approached Nissin and Kasuga, being on 25 cable or less from them, and then, approaching Alexander III, was only 20 cable from Japanese battleships. What does Baron V.N. Ferzen, his attempt to save the crew of the Alexander III, for which he allowed the Izumrud standing in place (!) To approach the Japanese armored cruisers on the 20 cable, is worthy of the highest praise, although it should also be noted that the cruiser was not hit only by miracle

What damage have received while Russian cruisers? According to A.A. Alliluyeva and M.A. Bogdanov "Emerald" in a day battle received hits 3 shells that did not cause him special damage. But in the reports of the commander and officers of the cruiser the number of enemy hits is not indicated, and the figures given by the above authors may be erroneous. The fact is that A.A. Alliluev and M.A. Bogdanov reported 17 hits to Pearls, but this is a clear mistake, because in the report, OA Enquist Pearl damage is reported in detail, and their list includes 17 points:

1. Broken middle chimney and its casing.
2. The front chimney was pierced by shrapnel blasts.
3. The fan is broken in several places.
4. Broken command entrance hatch.
5. The bulwark at the entrance commander's hatch is broken.
6. Concave and pierced bulkhead bath.
7. The commander's entrance ladder is broken.
8. The upper wooden and iron deck was pierced near the 120-mm gun №1.
9. The upper and living deck is pierced near the entrance commander's hatch.
10. Concave right gunwalk on the poop.
11. The whaleboat No.1 and the rowing boat No.1 are broken.
12. Spread the gunwalker on the bridge.
13. The bed grid of the 120-mm gun №1 is broken.
14. The right screw is bent.
15. Flowing steering oil seal.
16. Two water cisterns were pierced with splinters.
17. The upper deck is spoiled in many places.

Obviously, some of these damages may be the result of the same hit, and vice versa - screw damage is generally not associated with enemy fire, but was caused by the pile of the Ural on the cruiser’s stern. Thus, the data on 17 hits in “Pearls” should be considered obviously erroneous, and is it worth while unconditionally trusting the information on 3 hits in “Emerald” from the pen of the same authors? As for the losses among the crew, then on the "Pearls" all 12 people died, including 2 officers. Baron Wrangel, the midshipman of Tavastshorna, Konkov's conductor and 8 of the lower ranks fell directly in battle. Another sailor subsequently died from his wounds. The injured were 22 people, including the conductor Shorokhov and the 7 of the lower ranks, the midshipman Kiselev, the ensign Spadowski and the 12 of the lower ranks easily. There were no dead at Emerald, and there were 4 people injured.

In terms of ammunition consumption, Baron V.N. Ferzen pointed out that during the battle, “Emerald” shot about 200 shells with an 120-mm caliber, and 47-mm cannons did not shoot beyond the range. As for the “Pearl”, its commander, P.P. Levitsky, found it difficult to specify the consumption of projectiles, but it can be assumed that such was not less, if not more than that of Emerald.

Did the Russian 2-class cruisers do any harm to Japanese ships? It is extremely difficult to answer this question: the author has to admit that he has not studied enough the history of the Tsushima battle to make any reasonable assumptions on this matter. But Nissin and Kasuga received at least 5 hits of projectiles of unknown caliber, one of which could easily “fly” from Pearl when it went to the left side of the squadron, thus being between two fires. In addition, Russian shells hit the armored cruisers. The author managed to find information about two hits of 120-mm projectiles, one of which hit Akashi, and the second - to Tsushima. Strangely enough, the commander's premises suffered on both cruisers, and 7 people were killed on Akashi (one at once, and another six died of wounds) and two were injured, and on Tsushima only two were wounded. But this success cannot be unequivocally attributed to the Pearl or Emerald gunners, since 120-mm guns were also installed on the armored cruisers Vladimir Monomakh and Dmitry Donskoy, who also fought with the Japanese cruisers at the time of receiving their respective hits. It is also possible to get into some other Japanese ships, because in many cases we do not know either the time of the hit, or the exact caliber of the projectile.

With this, the author finishes the description of the 14 May Day battle of 1905, and will continue to consider further the events of the night on May 15 and subsequent events.

Продолжение следует ...
266 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +6
    14 July 2019 11: 04
    Good day, Andrey!

    Thank you for the article, never before has a picture of the participation of "pebbles" in Tsushima been drawn even with strokes.

    Therefore, I will ask a natural question:
    - how exactly can it be that the cruiser stopped to save people could not pull at least one person by the thrown end

    And another thought creeps in:
    That is, the cruisers, first of all, Enquist, who, in the face of clearly superior enemy forces, repelled themselves and defended the transports, is the only detachment that managed to complete its mission that day? that is, the cruisers, especially Enquist, were the best on both fleets that day?

    If that, I'm sorry, I'm not a great specialist in Tsushima
    1. +5
      14 July 2019 12: 10
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      - how exactly can it be that the cruiser stopped to save people could not pull at least one person by the thrown end

      Distance. As far as can be judged from the descriptions, by the time the Emerald approached Alexander, the surviving members of his crew were either on the battleship itself (crossed over to the bottom when the ship was turning over) or were in the water in close proximity to the ship. Approaching such a distance that it was possible to save with "ends" was, I think, impossible.
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      And another thought creeps in:
      That is, the cruisers, especially Enquist, who, in the face of clearly superior enemy forces, fought off themselves and defended the transports, is the only detachment that managed to complete its mission that day?

      Actually - yes, in my opinion the way it is. As for me, they didn’t make a national hero of Enquist for two reasons - the complete defeat of the squadron did not favor honoring, and Enquist nevertheless left the squadron and retreated to Manila, thereby violating the orders he received. And this, generally speaking, is very bad. But on the other hand, with this he saved the 3 cruiser for Russia.
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Thank you for the article, never before has a picture of the participation of "pebbles" in Tsushima been drawn even with strokes.

      That is why I took them on :)))) The overwhelming majority of people, even those who know the course of the Tsushima battle well, did not remember the actions of the "stones" - primarily because the most common sources very briefly describe their actions in Tsushima ... In order to somehow restore their actions, I had to sit well with the reports. hi
      1. +3
        14 July 2019 16: 55
        Andrey, thanks to you, I learned a lot of new ORYAV. You do not know: how many people from "Alexander 3" were saved? More than 20 years ago, I read or heard somewhere that during the Tsushima battle, very few drowning people were saved. Is it so?
        1. +4
          14 July 2019 17: 02
          Quote: vladcub
          You do not know: how many people from "Alexander 3" were saved?

          Svyatoslav, sadly forced to report that not a single person was saved from the battleship "Emperor Alexander III". This undoubtedly heroic ship perished with its entire crew soldier
          1. 0
            14 July 2019 17: 15
            In general, during Tsushima, many drowning people were saved?
            1. +6
              14 July 2019 21: 21
              Quote: vladcub
              In general, during Tsushima, many drowning people were saved?

              One from "Borodino" was saved by the Japanese
              with "Oslyabi" 418 saved our
              two from "Navarino" were saved by the British, another - by the Japanese
              from "Admiral Ushakov" 338 were saved by the Japanese
              from "Svetlana" 297 were saved by the Japanese
              from "Russia" 41 saved our
              from "Loud" 45 were saved by the Japanese.

              In other cases, they rescued themselves, on boats moving to their own or Japanese ships, as well as ashore.
              1. +3
                15 July 2019 13: 12
                Thanks for your information. It is more pleasant to read such comments than those where every second yells: I am smart, and you
    2. +4
      14 July 2019 12: 30
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Therefore, I will ask a natural question:
      - how exactly can it be that the cruiser stopped to save people could not pull at least one person by the thrown end

      And often did you hear about this?
      1. +3
        14 July 2019 14: 10
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        And often did you hear about this?

        Strictly speaking, something like that is remembered in WWII - there were some cases when drowning nets were caught from the cruiser on the go ... Yes, it seems that they also caught survivors from Bismarck, throwing their ends into the water. That is theoretically possible, but in practice, I will not mention something like this
        1. +4
          14 July 2019 14: 13
          You need to go through the jewelry near the drowning man and catch it the first time, otherwise it will be pulled under the screws.
          1. +4
            14 July 2019 14: 29
            It can be assumed that there is still a running question - yet the WWII ships' EC is not at all what the RNE, perhaps due to the ability to change the running mode on the WWW ship faster, it was easier to approach the drowning ones than in the RNV. But this is only speculation, of course. hi
        2. +2
          14 July 2019 21: 48
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          something like that is recalled in WWII - there were some cases when people drowned drowning nets from the cruiser on the go ... Yes, they also caught those who survived from Bismarck, throwing their ends into the water. That is theoretically possible, but in practice, I will not mention something like this

          Because this never happened, and our cruisers and the Japanese launched boats, like the Bayan near Port Arthur, for example.
        3. +3
          15 July 2019 13: 01
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Strictly speaking, something like that is remembered in WWII - there were some cases when drowning nets were caught from the cruiser on the go ... Yes, it seems that they also caught survivors from Bismarck, throwing their ends into the water. That is theoretically possible, but in practice, I will not mention something like this


          Impossible on the go - for this, the speed should be less than 5 knots. And at the end, a non-protracted loop, otherwise it will not hold.
          In this case, it is necessary to take into account the wind and inertia of the ship, so as not to sink people.
          A decrease in speed is necessary in order not to overwhelm a wave of a sinking

          Even rescue from a boat is dedicated to 4-5 different approach techniques, depending on course and wind.

          7. When lifting the victim to a high-sided vessel or, if necessary, towing him to the shore by water, it is advisable to tie the person to be saved at the chest level with a rope using the gazebo. The use of a noose or other tightening knot is unacceptable.
        4. 0
          15 July 2019 18: 25
          Yes, sort of like from the "Bismarck" and rescued with nets. There are such photos. And the problem with the ends was that the fuel oil had spilled and it was impossible to hold on to them. That is, if it was, it was extremely small.
      2. +1
        14 July 2019 16: 48
        And often did you hear about this?


        "Kolomeytsev, standing on the bridge, commanded in a harsh voice:
        - The whaleboat to lower! Prepare the ends for salvation!
        His officers and sailors knew what to do, and energetic, without unnecessary fuss, work began. All around, in the waves, under the fire of the enemy, many lives perished. The destroyer heard screams for salvation. The ends were thrown overboard now and then, for which the hands of the drowning were convulsively grabbed. And the distant donkeys were picked up by the only whaleboat with two rowers, dexterously controlled by midshipman Khrabro-Vasilevsky. "
        1. +5
          14 July 2019 17: 26
          Now re-read carefully.
          On the destroyer came the cries of salvation.

          Nevoks have a displacement of 10 times less than that of a cruiser (well, almost :)))). And maneuverability is the other way around, and even Kolomeytsev was very at risk.
          In general, drowning people with the help of the end are saved either in films, or this drowning person fell out of his ship. Well, at what distance from the side personally can you throw the end?
          1. +3
            14 July 2019 19: 00
            Yes, I understand that, because I wrote:

            how exactly can it be that stopped to save people, the cruiser could not pull at least one person by the thrown end


            they want to live - they will swim when necessary, I apologize for cynicism

            in addition, as I understand it, the pull-out method (correctly, of course, tie the lifebuoy, if any) is standard in all cases when it is impossible or inexpedient to lower the boat: well, for example, it is not on the yacht, or it is stormy, or no time in battle, etc.
            1. 0
              14 July 2019 22: 33
              Oh my God....
              / and grabbed his head /
            2. +1
              15 July 2019 04: 31
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              they want to live - they will swim when necessary, I apologize for cynicism

              The wave height on May 14, 1905 in the Tsushima Strait ranged from 1,2 to 1,8 meters. This is how the situation is described in the "Description of military operations at sea"
              Question: What reason do you have to say that if a person wants to live, he will be able to swim against one and a half meter waves where it is difficult for the destroyer?
              1. +1
                15 July 2019 07: 18
                will be able to swim против one and a half meter waves where it is difficult for the destroyer?


                answer: what reason do you have to say that the commander of the rescue ship is so stupid that he doesn’t know that he needs to get up so that a man swims in the wind, and not against?
                1. 0
                  16 July 2019 01: 45
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  what reason do you have to say that the commander of the rescue ship is so stupid that he does not know that he needs to get up so that a man swims in the wind, and not against?

                  To my question, dear colleague, you answered with a question from which your humble servant concludes that you have nothing to answer.
                  And this is understandable, because the waves were so strong that, as the commander of the destroyer "Bravy", Lieutenant P. P. Durnovo, pointed out in his report, they could not be pulled out by people, even if
                  Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                  wanting to live

                  but even a whaleboat.

                  The situation was aggravated by the rescued, clutching the oars. The destroyer had to go to the whaleboat.
                  Thus, we conclude that on board the torpedo boat, grabbing at the end, those who were near the torpedo boat could climb, but sailing to the torpedo boat in those conditions was unrealistic.
                  The Japanese destroyers passed, and the Russian whaleboat also saved.
                  The version that Durnovo was so dumb that it was waiting for a whaleboat from the windward side, will you offer?
                  1. +1
                    16 July 2019 08: 46
                    Dear colleague, there is no need for sophistry. It is very possible to move in the same direction with excitement, as well as at a slight angle to its direction along the way. Therefore, to deliberately adjust your course so that it carries on the cruiser, and not 20 meters past, is possible. I don’t write to swim a crawl of 500 meters at an angle of 120 to the direction of the wind.
            3. +3
              15 July 2019 13: 08
              Quote: Andrei Shmelev
              Yes, I understand that, because I wrote:

              how exactly can it be that stopped to save people, the cruiser could not pull at least one person by the thrown end


              they want to live - they will swim when necessary, I apologize for cynicism

              in addition, as I understand it, the pull-out method (correctly, of course, tie the lifebuoy, if any) is standard in all cases when it is impossible or inexpedient to lower the boat: well, for example, it is not on the yacht, or it is stormy, or no time in battle, etc.


              And far you throw a life buoy ... and against the wind? - Well, about 20 meters at best.
              Whereas a ship of the cruiser type by inertia and working off the machines backward - 60 meters to a sinking minimum. In a combat situation and with a lot of drowning people, there will be chaos.
              1. 0
                15 July 2019 14: 11
                Well, 20 meters at best.


                surely

                60 meters to drowning minimum


                I understand, but you can reduce the distance to jewelry accurate due to a very small stroke, although it takes time

                there will be chaos


                "a la guerre comme a la guerre"
                (I apologize for the lack of axans)

                because again:

                they want to live - they will swim when necessary, I apologize for cynicism
              2. +2
                15 July 2019 18: 34
                To pull a person with the end, there must be a loop on it (the end). A loop is thrown over the chest under the shoulders. You can stand on the loop with your foot. But people need to be taught this. And in cold water, a person may not have enough strength to stay even in the loop. Hoping for a person’s desire to live is not worth it. You can’t stretch much in cold water. And further. If there is wind, and the ship blows, a man in clothes will never catch up with him. And even without clothes, not everyone will do it. So here is the lottery.
                "Dorsetshire" in a battle with "Bismarck" drove into a bunch of people and therefore saved a lot. And the torpedo boats saved the donkeys like that.
                1. 0
                  16 July 2019 22: 03
                  almost completely agree with everything, except for one, this person, if he has, for example, a canvas berth, not to mention a life buoy, can very quickly move with passing waves
  2. PPD
    +6
    14 July 2019 11: 15
    Neither times nor the enemy choose, of course ...,
    but summing up the application in our fleet it turns out these ships were built in vain.
    As the scouts did not use them (well, apart from Novik, it can be debatable), butting yourself, unlike Oleg and Aurora,
    with enemy cruisers they cannot. And to make of them, because of the impossibility of more, repetitive vessels — excessive squandering — and destroyers can do this. And given that in the reconnaissance unit
    2 yachts went with them (one of which, a little later in the reconnaissance Geben sketched, and after re-equipment it had 6-120mm), and it turns out that there is no practical difference between them and the yachts.
    1. +4
      14 July 2019 12: 13
      Quote: PPD
      but summing up the application in our fleet it turns out these ships were built in vain.

      In general, I came to almost the same conclusions in a series of articles about "Novik"
    2. 0
      14 July 2019 12: 25
      but summing up the application in our fleet it turns out these ships were built in vain.

      They were used incorrectly: their optimal role is destroyer leaders, to give combat stability. Well, destroyers of the same.
      But before the war, such an idea did not occur. The same application that was planned (near squadron reconnaissance) turned out to be completely unclaimed and even simply unnecessary.

      As the scouts did not use them (well, apart from Novik, it can be debatable), butting yourself, unlike Oleg and Aurora,

      So Aurora is an unnecessary ship too: money down the drain

      it turns out that there is no practical difference between them and the yachts.

      Well, yes.
      Their value would be - destroyer leaders. In this role, they would show themselves perfectly. (in fact, Novik showed himself in this role)
      It’s just that at that time the tactics of the actions of squadrons were not yet drawn in detail. That theorized how they could.
      1. +4
        14 July 2019 13: 00
        Quote: AK64
        They were used incorrectly: their optimal role is destroyer leaders, to give combat stability.

        Novik was used, but he did not take place in this role. Because the Japanese used their armored cruisers for the same, which he could not resist on equal terms. That is, he coped with his duties only if the enemy cruiser was not nearby.
        Quote: AK64
        Well, destroyers of the same.

        This was also impossible for him, due to the fact that the Japanese destroyers were much faster in speed - Novik could never catch them.
        Quote: AK64
        So Aurora is an unnecessary ship too: money down the drain

        Unsuccessful - yes, but unnecessary?
        1. -1
          14 July 2019 15: 02
          Novik was used, but he did not take place in this role. Because the Japanese used their armored cruisers for the same, which he could not resist on equal terms. That is, he coped with his duties only if the enemy cruiser was not nearby.

          Armored decks are slower (i.e. destroyers linked) and more expensive.
          Just Japanese armored decks even more unnecessary boats.

          This was also impossible for him, due to the fact that the Japanese destroyers were much faster in speed - Novik could never catch them.

          Well, here .... how they did --- they did it.

          Unsuccessful - yes, but unnecessary?

          Colonial cruiser? In a country without colonies?
          And indeed, as inpatients (what else was it good for?) It would be better to use outdated ships.
          1. +2
            14 July 2019 16: 38
            Quote: AK64
            Armored decks are slower (i.e. destroyers linked) and more expensive.

            Quite the opposite - the same "Tsushima" is clearly cheaper than "Novik", but as for tying up ... no, not tying up, since the destroyers acted independently but could always retreat to the cruiser
            Quote: AK64
            Just Japanese armored decks even more unnecessary boats.

            Quite the contrary - the history of the NRF proves their archaism and archinviability. They were literally irreplaceable for Togo.
            Quote: AK64
            Well, here .... how they did --- they did it.

            So for the speed of Novik, the Germans had to literally jump out of their pants. But for the 30-nodal cruiser they categorically refused to undertake
            Quote: AK64
            Colonial cruiser? In a country without colonies?

            In fact, it was intended to fight on ocean communications. Colonial cruiser is another
            1. 0
              14 July 2019 17: 04
              Quite the opposite - the same "Tsushima" is clearly cheaper than "Novik", but as for tying up ... no, not tying up, since the destroyers acted independently but could always retreat to the cruiser

              Apparently, we differently understand the use of leaders.
              This Tsushima would have to defend the destroyers on a normal cruiser.

              Quite the contrary - the history of the NRF proves their archaism and archinviability. They were literally irreplaceable for Togo.

              OK
              Just too lazy to argue.

              In fact, it was intended to fight on ocean communications. Colonial cruiser is another

              In fact, it turned out exactly the colonial cruiser. Well, what are the "communications" with a distance of less than 4000 miles and a passport course of 19 knots? This is "neither steal nor watch."
              Well, actually, as far as I can tell, initially they wanted to build a "long-range reconnaissance" --- but the result was a maximum "patrol" --- i.e. "protection of the water area".
              To fight on communications - this is Stormbreaker-Russia ...

              In general, "we wanted the best - but it turned out as always." But it didn't work, it happens. the only question is why it was replicated in 3 copies?
              1. +4
                14 July 2019 17: 42
                it turned out just the colonial cruiser

                Colleague, the "colonial cruiser" is just "Niitaka" or our "Svetlana".
                Quote: AK64
                Well, what are the "communications" with a distance of less than 4000 miles and a passport course of 19 knots?

                Uh ... do not confuse what was conceived and what happened as a result.
                fuel reserves are roughly the same as Telbot.
                By the way, the "Emden" autonomy is worse. And the speed of 23 knots, if you think about it, in 1914 it is not much better than 19 ten years earlier, but who would say that he was a bad raider?
                Quote: AK64
                In general, "we wanted the best - but it turned out as always." But it didn't work, it happens. the only question is why it was replicated in 3 copies?

                Uh ... is the "sample fleet" better for you?
                This, one might say, is the first attempt to build a series, and more or less successful. in the sense that the ships turned out the same :))))
                1. +1
                  14 July 2019 18: 34
                  Colleague, the "colonial cruiser" is just "Niitaka" or our "Svetlana".

                  but what goddesses were fit except for how?

                  Uh ... do not confuse what was conceived and what happened as a result.

                  I’m talking about exactly what happened.
                  It turned out extremely badly --- and even surprisingly to me why so?

                  By the way, the "Emden" autonomy is worse. And the speed of 23 knots, if you think about it, in 1914 it is not much better than 19 ten years earlier, but who would say that he was a bad raider?

                  Emden - 3 thousandth. And the goddess - 7 thousand tons (well, almost).
                  Well, the miller was also a "good raider" (Müller = miller): there are people who will show themselves on a whaleboat. And if you give them a whole cruiser (albeit a poor one) ...

                  Uh ... is the "sample fleet" better for you?
                  This, one might say, is the first attempt to build a series, and more or less successful. in the sense that the ships turned out the same :))))

                  Replicating a deliberately bad thing?
                  Here is Russia .... It is also visible that the cruiser! (Though an acquisition of essentially dubious value as well) But why did such a puncture come out with the goddesses?
              2. +2
                14 July 2019 18: 27
                Quote: AK64
                Apparently, we differently understand the use of leaders.

                It is obvious. But the use of Novik does not fit into any reasonable concept of such leadership. By the way, let me draw your attention to the fact that after WWI the world came to the conclusion that in order to successfully lead the EV, the leader must be faster than the EM.
                Quote: AK64
                This Tsushima would have to defend the destroyers on a normal cruiser.

                For this, the Japanese had armored cruisers. In general, their system worked perfectly. If destroyers run into a cruiser, they retreat, and he cannot catch up with them. If this cruiser is Novik, the Japanese armored deck will deal with it. If - Askold, he will meet with 3-4 armored decks, tk. the Japanese marched in combat troops or an armored cruiser. And what about us?
                Novik could support his destroyers, but how? Only if they went to him under protection, and only from destroyers, and the latter he can only drive away, but not catch up and not destroy. How is this different from the same "Tsushima"? Yes, nothing. Another question is that it is more convenient for "Novik" to escape if superior forces of the enemy suddenly appear. But in conditions when the visibility is 8-10 miles, and the effective firing distance is 3-4 miles, and Tsushima will have time to retreat to the covering forces.
                Quote: AK64
                OK
                Just too lazy to argue.

                Well, okay, I bet someday later :)))))
                Quote: AK64
                In fact, it turned out exactly the colonial cruiser. Well, what are the "communications" with a distance of less than 4000 miles and a passport course of 19 knots?

                You are very well answered dear senior sailor. hi
                1. -1
                  14 July 2019 18: 39
                  \ sighing \
                  You, Andrei, are very stubborn and stubborn. And therefore, I simply will not argue with you. Laziness.
                  It's just that Tsushima is not a leader, and in general .... with her 20 nodes of the passport speed for such a cruiser --- she could not escape from a normal 6-thousander - what kind of "leader" is there. But Novik in this role, in the event of a collision of light forces, instantly shifted the scales in his favor.
                  1. +2
                    14 July 2019 19: 13
                    Quote: AK64
                    Just Tsushima is no leader

                    Of course. But she coped with ensuring the actions of her Minonsons, not being a leader.
                    Quote: AK64
                    with her 20 passport-handling units for such a cruiser --- she could not have escaped from the normal 6-thousandth

                    Of course she couldn't. But the combination "armored cruiser + weak armored deck" in this case worked better than our "novik" + 6-thousandth armored deck "despite the fact that both solutions are comparable in price. Tsushima is not the only one fighting, she is also covered.
                    Quote: AK64
                    But Novik in this role, in the event of a clash of light forces, instantly shifted the scales in his favor.

                    Like Tsushima. If our destroyers met enemy + Tsushima - superiority is on the side of the Japanese, but our destroyers could escape from the Japanese cruiser. If the Japanese destroyers met our destroyers + Novik, superiority is on our side, but the Japanese could escape from Novik.
                    1. +2
                      15 July 2019 12: 59
                      Coordination and, once again, a combination of actions is what distinguished the Japanese.
                      Andrei, when I read your comments, I remembered the hockey team: if players understand one another from one another, this is the key to success
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                    1. +5
                      14 July 2019 21: 53
                      Quote: fgkj
                      Novik was a small ship (class 2 cruiser) of protection of the near water region.

                      Kolya, are you?
                      1. +4
                        14 July 2019 22: 06
                        Quote: Comrade
                        Kolya, are you?

                        He is laughing Yes
                        After all, such
                        The second-class EDB (reconnaissance in battle) and the advice notes (conventional reconnaissance) engaged in close reconnaissance at squadrons. Retired raiders were engaged in long-range reconnaissance at squadrons.
                        Ships of the water area (scouts) were not involved in reconnaissance at squadrons. To do this, they simply did not have a margin of autonomy. He was engaged in reconnaissance of the water area adjacent to VM BASES

                        pearls are already becoming a legend! laughing drinks hi
                    2. 0
                      14 July 2019 22: 47
                      I understand disagreements with "Nikolai, who passed by", but he, IMHO, did not deserve such a number of minuses and a ban, since a number of things says very reasonably

                      I don’t know what happened there, but, IMHO, I can name a lot of characters who are much more deserving, in my humble opinion, of ostracism
                      1. +3
                        14 July 2019 22: 49
                        For all his 41 (from those that I was able to calculate), Nicholai’s visit to the site completely deserved a life ban with a ban on restoration, because for you this may be a new phenomenon, and we have been observing it for years and not all songs one and the same, and all with colossal arrogance and categoricalness. Zadolbalo, you know. The site administration, apparently, has the same opinion.
                      2. +4
                        14 July 2019 23: 29
                        you understand what the matter is --- you "got sick" of one thing, someone else is different. I told a group of teenagers that "no one was going to give the straits (and 1917) to Russia" - so these schoolchildren ran after me on all topics and minus the whole crowd --- apparently I "bored them".
                        (By the way, what is so blasphemous in the obvious fact that no one would pass the straits to Russia voluntarily?)
                        You have to be more tolerant. Freedom of speech is either for everyone - or for no one. And when "some animals are smoother than others" --- then this is a pigsty and not a forum ..
                      3. +3
                        14 July 2019 23: 34
                        Quote: AK64
                        Freedom of speech is either for everyone --- or for anyone

                        Rules too. And Nikolay regularly violates them, provoking srachi and regularly rolling into trolling, if not banned in time. Defend your point of view without him - no question, no one would have banned him and would not respond so negatively, but in the case of him there are only two options - or you disagree with him, and he starts to rude and troll you, or Praise and agree with him in absolutely everything, and then he changes his tone for patronizing, considering himself a genius. Is it necessary for someone? The last time I tried with him on the topic of logistics and supply of coal by land to Constantinople from Zonguldak in the PRC was to talk, in a normal way, but everything quickly slipped into srach, because I dared not agree with him that it was easier than ever, but in response got rude and trolling. Is this a constructive dialogue? No, if you want this - then please, but I, and many colleagues, and what is important - the site administration does not agree with your point of view.
                      4. +1
                        15 July 2019 06: 33
                        Quote: AK64
                        You have to be more tolerant. Freedom of speech is either for everyone - or for no one. And when "some animals are smoother than others" --- then this is a pigsty and not a forum ..

                        It is understandable. Everyone can express themselves as they see fit. And everyone has their own opinion regarding this or that "character", for example, on this site.
                        The aforementioned character is constantly reincarnating under various alphanumeric meaningless nicknames, but this does not prevent regular visitors from recognizing him by the style of speech and the semantic load of his comments. Which, of course, carry his personal point of view on some things in the development of the Navy. The obstinacy with which this comrade conveys to his people his only correct point of view causes a smile to colic in the stomach, therefore, according to the same rules of the site, there are minuses for invariability and periodically the character is banned due to intolerance expressed in rudeness wink As dear Artem said, it’s really embarrassing to listen to the same song about retired raiders hi
                      5. 0
                        14 July 2019 23: 13
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I understand disagreement with "Nikolai, who passed by", but he, IMHO, did not deserve so many minuses and a ban,

                        The troll must sit in the bath.
                      6. +4
                        14 July 2019 23: 24
                        Why is the "troll"? The troll's goal is hype without meaning.
                        In the end, even the devil must have a lawyer (By the way, this argument was given to your humble servant on the same occasion --- 25 years ago)
                      7. The comment was deleted.
                      8. 0
                        14 July 2019 23: 51
                        Oh, 42 went to the list laughing
                2. +1
                  14 July 2019 19: 14
                  After the WWI, the world came to the conclusion that for a successful leadership, an EM leader must be faster than an EM.


                  during WWII, super-destroyer leaders have never really led anyone)
                  Well, I would not say that everything is much better, of course, cruisers
                3. +1
                  14 July 2019 19: 28
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  In general, their system worked perfectly.

                  You know, colleague, I have a feeling that under our spitz we just forgot about armored cruisers. And so, it seems, everything is not so bad.
                  Novik and clones can chase enemy destroyers, leading their own (taking into account the real speed of the "nevok", it's still a question of who is faster). "Six-thousanders" and "Bayan" cover the "dogs" like a bull a sheep (it would be better, of course, there were just "Bayans" instead of all these ...), but they somehow forgot about a large armored cruiser capable of driving "Asamoids" or did not consider it necessary. Something like "Peresvet", but with a full belt and a couple of knots faster (somewhere I saw it :))))
                  1. +1
                    14 July 2019 20: 16
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    "Six-thousanders" and "Bayan" cover "dogs" like a bull a sheep (it would be better, of course, there were just "Bayans" instead of all these ...), but they somehow forgot about a large armored cruiser capable of driving "Asamoids" or did not consider it necessary.

                    In this sense, I like Nissin and Kasuga. Ships are only a little larger than Aurora, but more than ten times more useful. And at a price almost the same. Very vain they were not bought in 1902.
                    1. +1
                      14 July 2019 21: 01
                      In this sense, I like Nissin and Kasuga. Ships are only a little larger than Aurora, but more than ten times more useful. And at a price almost the same. Very vain they were not bought in 1902.

                      Which, in general, characterizes you exhaustively. (Do not be offended, but it is a fact)
                      You are not comparing the product - you are comparing the numbers in the tablets.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                  3. 0
                    14 July 2019 21: 12
                    about a large armored cruiser capable of driving "Asamoids"


                    we will be logical and consistent: we will also ask for a large armored battleship capable of driving "Sikishimoids" fellow
                    1. +2
                      14 July 2019 21: 27
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      large armadillo armadillo

                      They were already under construction. "Andrew the First-Called" and "Paul I"
                      1. +1
                        14 July 2019 21: 51
                        but in February 1904 funds were already allocated
                        for 2 battleships of the "Satsuma" type 4-305, 12-254
                        and 4 armored cruisers of the "Tsukuba" class)

                        I meant something else - good for you:
                        destroyers - "Novikom",
                        dogs - "Bogatyr"
                        Asamoids - "Rurik 2"
                        sikishimoids - "Andrew the First-Called"
                        and if the same money?
                      2. 0
                        15 July 2019 12: 03
                        The second "Rurik", nevertheless, began to design in the course of the RYAV. But "Andreev" began to develop seriously before. That is, the understanding of the need was, albeit belated.
                      3. 0
                        16 July 2019 02: 28
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        funds were already allocated in February 1904
                        for 2 battleships of the "Satsuma" type 4-305, 12-254
                        and 4 Tsukuba-class armored cruisers

                        May I ask where this infa comes from?
                        Here are the official data (in rubles) on the maritime budgets of the leading fleets of the world, the expenditures for the "New shipbuilding" of the Japanese fleet there in a red frame.

                        Perhaps the allocated 5 700 000,00 rubles for one light cruiser should be enough.
                      4. +1
                        16 July 2019 09: 10
                        I’m writing from a business trip from memory: I’ll return and see, offhand I will answer all these ships were planned by the third Fleet Act of 1903, included in the Japanese budget for fiscal year 1905 in February 1904 with an update in May 1904, do you not know that the Japanese allocated funds, as a rule, from the first future budget period, which the 1905 budget was then. Further, in connection with the war, financing 2 went to the budget of 1906, and 2 more to the budget of 1907. The Japanese design the armadillos with 305 mm single-caliber artillery was still in 1903, however, then it was decided to use 254 mm, the decision to equip the brkr 305 mm guns adopted in the second half of 1904.
                      5. +3
                        14 July 2019 22: 43
                        to be honest, there is absolutely nothing to chase the asamoids for - this is such "wealth" that hits the economy of the country containing them more than the enemy. Either "battleships of the 3rd class", or "cruisers for the protection of super-short communications." Absolutely conceptually talentless project. Despite the fact that for the price - almost an armadillo (well, let it be 2 for 3, although there, perhaps, it comes out more expensive).
                      6. +1
                        14 July 2019 23: 48
                        Either "battleships of the 3rd class", or "cruisers for the protection of super-short communications." Absolutely conceptual


                        "Nedolinkors", or "Battleships for the beggars," so it seems, classified the Japanese armored cruisers A. Sick?
                      7. +2
                        15 July 2019 01: 45
                        "Nedolinkors", or "Battleships for the beggars," so it seems, classified the Japanese armored cruisers A. Sick?

                        So all this was built for "third countries" --- Chile, Argentina, .... Well, the Japanese also bought it.
                        Purely commercial project "expensive toys for natives"
                      8. +1
                        15 July 2019 07: 48
                        "battleships of the 3rd class"


                        Yes, it happened.

                        But the very idea of ​​their creation was very tempting (+3 speed knots from promising and +5 speed knots from existing battleships)
                        However, for proper implementation, it was necessary to increase the displacement to 12 tons and get a squadron version of what the BrKr "Cressy" rig: lower side, less coal, more armor and more guns

                        Shl. And the asamoids' chase "Rurik 2" then what?
                      9. +1
                        15 July 2019 13: 19
                        Quite right, however, these "natives" thrashed us.
                      10. +1
                        15 July 2019 14: 12
                        Quite right, however, these "natives" thrashed us.

                        Yes, not "thrashed".
                        They merged terrifyingly - winning all the battles. The economy was bursting at the seams. Russia could simply remain in the war without doing anything --- Japan itself would go bankrupt.

                        The Japanese method is cormorant. The battle method is as follows. How can an alcoholized gopnik beat a master of sports in boxing? And come up quietly, distract with conversation - and sharpen it in the kidney. And then kick, kick, kick .... This method of fighting is called cormorant, or in a scientific way --- "blitzkrieg"
                        But if the boxer doesn’t fall right away, if he stands, then the gopnik will end.
                        So Russia has resisted. A year and a half of war for Russia --- they just warmed up. They only gathered a group of 600 thousand. The boxer stood and would have killed the gop with one blow.

                        So the British agent had to save Japan --- completely betraying himself.
                      11. 0
                        15 July 2019 19: 59
                        Russia could simply remain in the war without doing anything --- Japan itself would go bankrupt.


                        I could, I could not ... What happened - that happened, and the Tsushima disgrace has not gone anywhere. Stalin correctly said after the defeat of the Kwantung Army that "Tsushima has been avenged with a tori." But we're not going to speak for the ENTIRE Japanese army and its fleet now, are we?
                      12. The comment was deleted.
                      13. +1
                        15 July 2019 01: 37
                        Nicholas,
                        Elsweek cruisers could not "protect" anything from anyone. At least for the lack of seaworthiness, and speed too. In the ocean, they could not just shoot.
                        While the price of them ....

                        That is precisely why the British themselves did not need such kindness and nafig: they built exclusively for the natives, s.

                        Garibaldians .... A typical Italian super-tight over-compressed project, with a slurred concept, for the Mediterranean Sea (with an interference fit). They never confirmed the data indicated in the passport - and therefore the Japanese put them in the 1st combat detachment (they did not give the declared speed).

                        (By the way, this is one of the reasons why the Russians were not eager to buy these "treasures")
                      14. +4
                        15 July 2019 07: 34
                        Quote: AK64
                        Garibaldians .... A typical Italian super-tight over-compressed project, with a slurred concept, for the Mediterranean Sea (with an interference fit). They never confirmed the data indicated in the passport - and therefore the Japanese put them in the 1st combat detachment (they did not give the declared speed).


                        "..... due to financial pressure, the construction of battleships was practically suspended. Therefore, the Italian naval authorities were forced to proceed to the construction of cruisers, protected and armed so that, if necessary, they could act with armadillos and take part in the battles of the fleet. Carlo Alberto and Garibaldi are representatives of this type,..... "N. Soliani, 1896.

                        " The Garibaldi cruiser is, in my opinion, an exceptionally well-designed ship, the inspection of this ship confirmed my opinion that the time had come when it became necessary to create cruisers for the fleet, which should be able to take part in the battles of the fleet as additions to armadillos. Until now, the generally accepted concept was that modern cruisers comply with and assume the responsibilities of frigates who previously served in the fleets. But, while frigates in the old days did not take part in battleship battles, with rare exceptions, in modern conditions, there seems to be absolutely no reason why cruisers should stay away from the battle if they are designed and built in the image of the cruiser Garibaldi."W. White is a British shipbuilder who served as chief builder of the fleet from 1886 to 1903. 1896.
                      15. +1
                        15 July 2019 09: 00
                        if they are designed and built in the image of the cruiser Garibaldi. "


                        Good morning, dear colleague! "in the image" does not mean that they are)
                        at least, as I understand it, "Cressy" and "Drake" were completely different ships, a kind of hybrid of the ideas of "Powerfull" and "Diadem", but with the addition of an armor belt (which was more logical to spy on the series "Rurik" - "Russia" - "Stormbreaker")

                        Threat. Sir William reminded Messi a bit with chips and Pepsi - I don’t think Messi is the main diet
                      16. +3
                        15 July 2019 10: 21
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Good morning, dear colleague! "in the image" does not mean that they are


                        "........that the time came when it became necessary to create cruisers for the fleet, which should be able to take part in the battles of the fleet as an addition to the battleships....... "

                        Copy was not required, the idea itself is important.
                      17. +1
                        15 July 2019 11: 22
                        Practice. which is the only criterion of truth, showed that this is still a rather dangerous error.
                        In the end, it all came down to the battlecruisers (expensive, but still unable to fight LK on an equal footing), who later and safely cheated.

                        And to put the Garibaldians in the line .... With their price somewhere "3 for 2 LK", they in real life and three of them with one LK of the same year of production would not cope: simply their 8-inch buns for LK are a perfect trifle ... But the reciprocal 12 "splash could drown with one pill.
                      18. +1
                        15 July 2019 12: 09
                        Quote: AK64
                        With their price somewhere "3 for 2 LK"

                        Hmm ... sclerosis tells me that Vickers paid 780 pounds for Mikasa. and for Ansaldo Garibaldians for 750 thousand ... so ...
                      19. 0
                        15 July 2019 12: 24
                        I immediately with a margin. for example, under the program 1904-14 in Russia for 4 cruisers (of all types) - 44 lemons, and for 16 battleships - 258. The price ratio is somewhere around 3 for 2, approximately. But there are ALL cruisers, including thunderbolts
                      20. +1
                        15 July 2019 14: 15
                        I heard about these numbers, but even I have doubts about the fact that this is the full cost of "Mikas" - how can it be much cheaper than "Drake" and comparable to "Kent"?
                      21. +2
                        15 July 2019 15: 30
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        doubts gnaw

                        Me a sinful thing too :)))
                        Options.
                        1) The Vickers price is indicated without armament (which is possible since the concern began to make guns a bit later)
                        2) The Britons provided the japam really ... a very good discount, but the Italians, essno, did not run anywhere, and they took it to the full.
                        In general, a colleague Arthur Praetor at one time dug statistics, but long ago ...
                      22. 0
                        15 July 2019 15: 56
                        I also once made price selections, I didn’t find Mikas, but I remember that for their needs the Britons crossed the million pound border for a finished battleship in the 19th century, I’ll return from a business trip - I’ll dig
                      23. +2
                        15 July 2019 15: 56
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        In general, a colleague Arthur Praetor at one time dug statistics, but long ago ...

                        In general, with the cost of Japanese ships, the story is rather muddy - as with many others. But, according to the information that I found (including thanks to a colleague countryman / mate), the figure was about the following, in pounds sterling:
                        - "Mikasa". Somewhere in the 900 thousands without weapons, and maybe, armor. The total cost is about £ 1,7 million, but I took this figure from a source so murky that it could be wrong. Moreover, if it is correct, then the British sold the ship to the Japanese at exorbitant prices - even Lord Nelson did not cost that much, which is unlikely, since they made a fairly good discount to the Japanese for regular ship orders from them.
                        - "Garibaldi". Well, everything is simple - 750-750 thousand pounds with weapons.
                        - "Asama". 879 thousand pounds with weapons.
                        Since such a booze has gone, I will give the figures for the "favorites" of my colleague.
                        - "Drake". 1,050 million pounds without weapons. But did you want a sho, dear editors, thought such a bad machine with a huge number of boilers would be cheap? Haha Sarochka, come here, here such naive people live ...
                        - "Kent". From 700 to 900 thousand pounds per ton without weapons.
                        Something like this. If you roughly count the Mikasa's armament as 1/3 of the price tag, then you get somewhere in the region of 1,35 million pounds per ship, and for 2,7 million pounds for two battleships you could build 3 Garibaldi, and there would still be, and to pay a little more - and even 4 "Garibaldi" could be obtained. But quantity does not mean quality, for where are those small Italians, and where, without a doubt, is the masterpiece of armored vehicles of their time? And choosing between two "Mikas" and two "Drakes" - the choice is a little predictable laughing

                        PS If Arthur Praetor wrote something better, it was originally in Russian, but then I became too lazy and English-speaking ... laughing
                      24. 0
                        15 July 2019 20: 48
                        I’m writing from the phone at the train station, from memory, if you don’t beat anything: I didn’t find anything reliable from Mikas, but I definitely believe in 1,35, Drake 996 thousand, Kent about 750, Kressi 780. Difficulty in the presence / absence of weapons in the article ammunition. I believe in Garibaldi’s price a little more than half of Mikas’s willingness, Asam’s cost is about the same as Kent’s cost, Drake is something with a freebie for my favorite toy, a little bit in the bummer, if it's without artillery.
                      25. +1
                        15 July 2019 20: 55
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Drake - something I have with a freebie on my favorite toy a little in the bummer, if it is without artillery ..

                        The price tags of "Drake" and "Kent" are unambiguously without taking into account weapons, according to the British BrKr I took a figure in some English-language edition (which I do not remember, because it was a long time ago). Taking into account their composition of weapons, add another 35-50 percent of the available cost - and you get almost the "Mikasa". Sobsno, the British massively built such ships just because they were British - i.e. possessed a number of battleships sufficient for a war with any enemy, and even with different alignments in coalitions. Although they don't have to be THAT big and expensive - we are with you, in my opinion. We have already discussed this, demanding 23 knots of speed from a huge ship, and using the Belleville boilers - something that strongly resembles sadomasochism, and Royal Navy coped with the promotion of this matter to the masses perfectly request
                      26. +1
                        15 July 2019 22: 02
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        - "Garibaldi". Well, everything is simple here - 750-750 thousand pounds with weapons.
                        - "Asama". 879 thousand pounds with weapons.

                        Once this booze has gone, you can add one more.
                        - "Aurora". 648 thousand pounds with weapons
                      27. +1
                        15 July 2019 22: 21
                        Welcome to the state-owned shipyards of the Russian Empire laughing Although, in fairness, it should be noted that large armored decks in other states were also not cheap. The per-ton cost of the Aurora (by the way, more expensive than that of the sisterships) is equal to that of the German Victoria Louise, and slightly higher than the French one. I would compare with the British, but it is not clear whether their price tags are with or without weapons. Unambiguously, only the Americans had any cheap armored decks.
                      28. 0
                        15 July 2019 22: 58
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        Definitely cheap, only Americans had any armored decks

                        Not sure about the Americans. As I remember with tsushima reduced prices
                        The beginning of the 20th century. "Varangian" - 6500000 p. "Askold" - 5500000 p. Bogatyr - 6000000 p. Italy "Giusepe Garibaldi" - 6500000 p. "Nissin" - 7500000 p.

                        Aurora in rubles right there, in the middle of 6400000 r.
                      29. +1
                        15 July 2019 23: 15
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Not sure about the Americans. As I remember with tsushima reduced prices

                        I was talking about "American for Americans." There, the price tags per tonne of displacement, on average, were less than European counterparts, although this is not a widespread phenomenon. "Varyag" - a later and more complex product, but for a ton of displacement cost quite cheap (75 pounds - at the bottom of the average world 70-90 pounds per ton of armored cruisers).
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        As I remember with tsushima reduced prices

                        Which, apparently, are rounded, because I have rarely seen such even numbers in reference books regarding price tags. I used more accurate numbers in my calculations. For example, I had clear prices from reference books in pounds sterling for "Garibaldi" and "Kasuga" / "Nissin", there the difference is literally 10 thousand pounds (750 and 760, respectively) - and according to your figures, the difference between them is about 100 thousand pounds !

                        By the way, if we talk about expensive armored decks, then feel free to cite "Oleg" as an example. More expensive than "Garibaldians" by several tens of thousands of pounds, a ton of its displacement cost more than a ton of "Borodino". Yes, the full price tag with weapons is only £ 100 less than the Asama's. You yourself know about the quality of construction. Long live the state shipyards! laughing
                      30. +1
                        15 July 2019 23: 41
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        Which, apparently, are rounded, because I rarely met such even numbers in directories regarding price tags.

                        Rounded for comparison. In the directories, prices in different currencies and even for different years. How to compare them? The exchange rate for Big Mac was not yet :)

                        However, even this rounded value is enough to evaluate the effectiveness of investments in ships. It can be seen that investments in armored decks were conceptually erroneous. The task was to protect new possessions in the Far East, and ships with long range began to build, oriented more likely to cruising, sabotage war. While the prices for 6000 matches and prices for armored cruisers like Kasug or Asama are essentially the same. But the second ones can be put into a linear system if necessary and compete for supremacy in the sea, and the first alas - forever running away.
                      31. +2
                        15 July 2019 23: 53
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        In reference books prices in different currencies and even for different years. How to compare them?

                        Use the Internet. I once found a database of the Swedish stock exchange, which gives the exchange rate of currencies on almost any date and on any currencies, with only some restrictions. However, I found it later than the price tags of the armored squadrons considered, so there might be inconsistencies.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        It can be seen that investments in armored fighters turned out to be conceptually erroneous.

                        Moreover, the rate on large armored fighters was not only ours, and it did not justify everywhere — but it was here, given the traditional cost savings, that proved to be the most painful. The Japanese turned out to be smarter than many - having difficulties with finances, they were building rather mediocre armor-mounted fighters with low cost, but good mass character, and it turned out that for ships of this class such a recipe is the most necessary thing.

                        As for the raider war - this is another big domestic jamb. The best raiders (albeit from the post-knowledge position) were auxiliary cruisers converted from civilian ships - yes, they are not very impressive, but they can attract a lot of mobilization, and it’s not a bad thing to lose. And in the conditions of the same economy, the large expenditures on raiders of special construction turned out to be, to put it mildly, irrational. Of course, the assistants developed here as well, but this was a consequence of copying the French strategy of a raider war, for which the Gauls had enough special ships. buildings and personnel with mobilization ships cruisers. We also had no such amount of resources and personnel. It would be better to build warships and develop the Voluntary Fleet.
                      32. +1
                        16 July 2019 00: 13
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        I once found a database of the Swedish exchange, which gives the exchange rate of currencies for almost any date and for any currencies

                        The exchange rate for a specific date does not take into account internal inflation (for 15 years) and changes in monetary policy (for example, the appearance of the gold ruble in 1897 seems to be). The Big Mac course allows you to indirectly compare the real value of the same ships for the economy. In general, it seems to me that rounding off on tsushima was done quite reasonably.

                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        the bet on large armored decks was not only with us, and everywhere did not materialize - but it was with us, given the traditional cost savings, that it turned out to be the most painful.

                        I agree that it did not work out, but by the way, this does not mean that these cruisers could not be used in the interests of the struggle for supremacy at sea. The same "goddesses" could well have worked as long-range security for the base. So that the Japanese with mines do not swim near Port Arthur like in their own bathroom. Horses like Bogatyr, Askold, Varyag could easily replace the Vladivostok squadron and pull off some of the heavy ships by raiding operations. And the same Russia and Thunderbolt could well strengthen the main forces of the 1st Pacific Squadron. Alas .. no one really even tried to think about it. The passivity of our fleet and ruined in the end.
                      33. +3
                        16 July 2019 00: 33
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The course Big Mac allows you to indirectly compare the real value of the same ships for the economy. In general, it seems to me that roundings on Tsushima were done quite reasonably.

                        Well, I don’t know, as for me, rounding is an oversimplification, especially since there are questions about the numbers themselves ("Garibaldi" and "Nissin", for example). However, everyone has their own sources. hi
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        but this by the way does not mean that these cruisers could not be used in the interests of the struggle for dominance at sea

                        By itself. It's just that this is not the most rational waste of money, and having such "goddesses", we did not receive enough destroyers, rank II cruisers, and even battleships, which could bring more benefit in almost any scenario. Although, I confess, I am strongly biased here - I categorically do not like large armored decks, except perhaps as some kind of experiment, a few pieces, but not build them in large enough quantities. But three "goddesses" spent as much money as EMNIP would have been enough for 5-6 cruisers of the "Svetlana" type, which, although not impressive in its characteristics, is much more suitable as a "workhorse" and a change ship than " goddesses. " Especially if the "Svetka" is a bit finished. The Japanese, if anything, had as many as 8 ships of similar characteristics, and they did not complain that these were bad cruisers. One of them even "Novik" as a result shot.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The same "goddesses" could well have worked as long-range security for the base. So that the Japanese with mines do not swim near Port Arthur like in their own bathroom.

                        EMNIP, for some time "goddesses" and were used in the outer raid to provide their patrols with greater stability. It even seemed to work out well.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Skips like Bogatyr, Askold, Varyag could very well replace the Vladivostok squadron and put off some heavy ships with raiding operations.

                        IMHO, horses, like any other special cruisers. the buildings were desperately needed in Arthur, there, and so "eyes and ears" for the linear forces of the fleet sorely lacked - both destroyers and cruisers. While our armored decks with the proud lonely eagle "Bayan" walked alone, two or three at the most, the Japanese calmly walked in whole cruising formations, and performed the tasks assigned to them.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        And the same Russia and Gromoboy could well strengthen the main forces of the 1-th Pacific Squadron.

                        I do not think that ships with a strictly side-by-side arrangement of artillery could do anything to help during a battle in the line, except perhaps to divert enemy artillery onto themselves. As far as I do not appreciate the Asamoids as ships of the battle line, the Rurikoids are even worse in this role.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Alas .. no one really even tried to think about it. Passivity of our fleet and ruined in the end.

                        I don’t know how appropriate the word “passivity” is. Other words come to mind, although there were not very many options with the available ships, and even fewer promising ones.
                      34. +2
                        16 July 2019 22: 22
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        It's just that this is not the most rational waste of money, and having such "goddesses", we did not receive enough destroyers, rank II cruisers, and even battleships, which could bring more benefit in almost any scenario.

                        I agree with you! And the reason for this, I think, was a natural mess in the heads of the leaders and the absence of any consistent planning. It seems that the program is called "ships for the Far East," but in fact, raiders with increased autonomy order in the performance characteristics. Although the task is purely local, to maintain dominance in the Yellow Sea and the Sea of ​​Japan. The Japanese approached the set of characteristics of their ships quite sensibly. And I would suggest limiting ourselves only to armored cruisers, like the same Garibaldians and battleships. And instead of small cruisers - large destroyers such as "Ukraine" or "Lieutenant Shestakov". They began to be built around that time.

                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        I don’t know how appropriate the word “passivity” is. Other words come to mind, although there were not very many options with the available ships, and even fewer promising ones.

                        There were enough options and with the available ships. At least the Pacific Fleet was not inferior to the Japanese in quantity. Seven battleships, but three BrKR and Oslyabyu with Sisoy remember on time .. Yes, the same Nissin and Kasuga could intercept. Moreover, RI had the opportunity to put up a second squad, the same Borodins and old men of the Baltic. But alas and ahh .. All the tricks up were consistently missed :(
                      35. +2
                        16 July 2019 22: 55
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        And I would suggest limiting ourselves only to armored cruisers, like the same Garibaldians and armadillos.

                        IMHO, not the best option. A certain amount of armored cruisers is still necessary, you just need to soberly assess their capabilities and understand that these are not light cruisers a la WWII, or even PMV, but in fact overgrown gunboats, which should be more convenient and powerful art. platform than destroyers, and 2-3 knots faster than battleships. This will provide sufficient stability for the light forces of the fleet, give support to the same destroyers (I'm talking about support, not leading), improve the survivability of our reconnaissance, and give a number of fairly powerful, but, in general, exchange ships. Of course, these cruisers don't have to be the size of "goddesses" or 6000-kov. I periodically think about this as an AI shipbuilder, and if not changed "stones" come to mind (more displacement, less speed, more powerful artillery, in fact, analogs of Japanese "dogs" are obtained), then somewhat increased and maybe more fast "Svetlana" (I have worked on the concept for a long time, but the visualization has not yet developed). With this approach, cruisers do not turn out to be expensive in any way, but they become massive.

                        By the way, the failure of cruisers (for a long time, only BrKr raiders, with a narrow specialization, were built for a long time) is a separate topic for conversation since the mid-1880s. Already there it was worth starting to build at least some, but armored decks that could be useful in a future war (the Japanese were very useful in their fossil imports, despite their modest characteristics), but alas, up to six-thousanders and "goddesses" of BpKr in Russia are the fingers of one hand Enough to count, plus the seaworthy gunboats, which, as gunboats, did not show themselves very well, but for some reason were forced in peacetime to perform functions in fact of the same BpKr, not being able to replace them during the war.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        And instead of small cruisers - large destroyers such as "Ukraine" or "Lieutenant Shestakov". They began to be built around that time.

                        Oh, on the subject of destroyers can talk for a long time and a lot. Including about the Japanese - there are some questions for them that I haven’t found the answers to. But alas, even now I’m answering you, but I’m actually working from dawn to night, so once again I’m not really thinking about the tree. request
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Yes, the same Nissin with Kasuga could intercept.

                        EMNIP could not. Right now, I can be fiercely mistaken, for I did not particularly concentrate my attention on Japanese ships, but, as I recall, until they were handed over to the Japanese fleet, they were escorted by British cruisers. An attack on Kasuga with Nishin would be a pretext for the British to intervene in the conflict, which, to put it mildly, is not the best prospect.

                        For the rest - there is something to say, but there is no time and opportunity for this. Maybe some other time hi
                      36. +1
                        16 July 2019 23: 42
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        A certain amount of armored deck cruisers is still necessary, you just need to soberly assess their capabilities and understand that these are not light cruisers a la WWII, and not even PMV, but essentially overgrown gunboats,

                        You are intrigued. :) I can't understand why exactly overgrown gunboats and not a couple of destroyers, for example. The same "Lieutenant Shestakov" was carrying two 120 mm cannons, why would a couple of such guns be worse than one minicruiser of 3-4 thousand tons? Shoreline gunboats are a separate class. They are slow and not even armored, all for the sake of the lowest price. They are useless for a war at sea. I can't think of a role at sea for small armored decks, except perhaps leading destroyers, but "leaders" are an expensive class of ships. Within the framework of the RYA, most of the auxiliary tasks could be performed by ships in the range of 800-1500 tons. Which reminded me of the big destroyers. (and "Noviks" which became the standard size later, to the PMV).

                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        An attack on Kasuga with Nishin would be a pretext for the British to intervene in the conflict, which, to put it mildly, is not the best prospect.

                        There is great doubt that the British would go to war with Russia over the Japanese cruisers. This is too good for Wilhelm. But in general, by "intercept" I meant just buy immediately as they were offered. RI was the first to receive such an offer, and the Italians, by all indications, preferred the Russians.

                        And thanks for the interesting discussion! We have not even deviated too much from the topic of "pebbles", we must understand why they are needed as a class and what the options could be.
                      37. +1
                        17 July 2019 00: 34
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        I can’t understand why the gunboats are overgrown and not a couple of destroyers for example.

                        Because overgrown gunboats are not only valuable fur, but also big guns laughing Moreover, the large cannons, placed on a much more stable and seaworthy platform than the destroyer. It is very useful to have at least one such platform in the close cover of the three or four of their fighters, to which they can retreat in case of problems. Although ideally, of course, such close cover would have 3-4 such platforms so as not to be afraid of meeting with Japanese light forces, but, for example, three "sleepy goddesses" cost about 6 "Svetlana", plus "Varyag" , "Askold" and "Bogatyr" - and we already get 8-10, or even 12 cruisers a bit larger than the "Svetlan", with 6-8 six-inches and a speed of about 21 knots (however, "Aurora" in the 1st TOE did not have time, but that is). And such a number of armored cruisers, IMHO, would radically facilitate the life of the 1st TOE, and improve the stability of our destroyers, which, as you remember, were covered at the exits with almost one "Bayan" and "Novik" against many Japanese cruisers, which essentially fettered our light forces and did not allow them to perform reconnaissance and patrol functions with due efficiency - our patrols felt confident only in the outer raid, and the further from the base, the higher the chance of interception by Japanese fighters and armored cruisers, the greater the constraint of actions, the more less use of available light forces.

                        Nor did I drink a drop of rum! In a sense, he did not touch the Pacific BrKr and even Novik, having increased the number of six-inch armored cruisers from 5 to 8-12 (most likely 10) for the same money. The main thing is not to order the alt-"Svetok" at the domestic state-owned shipyards, otherwise there will be a big quantitative and financial bummer. Only domestic private shipyards (Baltic and Nevsky plants, the latter with reservations) and foreign orders under a single TTZ.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        The same "Lieutenant Shestakov" was carrying two 120 mm cannons, why would a couple of such guns be worse than one minicruiser of 3-4 thousand tons?

                        "Shestakovs" were ordered after the war, and no one would have put 120-mm cannons on the destroyer BEFORE RYAV, this is progressorship, which is not good. A super perfect result for RYAV would have been simply fighters a la the first "Volunteers", with 2x75 and 4x57, or even 4-6x75. It's too early to think about 120mm on fighters, in the gaming industry this is called cheating laughing And an attempt to build a mine cruiser with 120-mm cannons before the REV would cause an increase in the size and cost of the ships (the drowning cost of destroyers is off the charts), and most importantly, the response from the Japanese, and they could also have something like that, built in English shipyards.

                        In addition, mine cruisers have worse seaworthiness and survivability than armored decks. These are absolutely bargain ships, without providing a strong (and numerous - otherwise it will not be strong) rear, our mine cruisers will still be very limited in capabilities. And here it is important to understand that fighters do not cancel armored decks, and armored decks do not make fighters useless. It’s like a tank with infantry - and this is individually good, but the tank, with the support of a platoon of infantry, will perform a combat mission much more efficiently. BrKr is too expensive to make tanks of them (by this analogy), BrKr are more likely mobile assault guns, and armadillos are supporting artillery from the rear. Jumping over one class means losing efficiency, because the complex interaction of ships of various specializations works much better. Oh how I got it laughing
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        I can't think of a role at sea for small armored decks, except perhaps leading destroyers, but "leaders" are an expensive class of ships.

                        The near cover, and large enough to not be afraid of unnecessary losses and squeezing by the numerically superior enemy forces (and the Japanese had just huge armored decks).
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Within the framework of the RNE, most of the auxiliary tasks could be performed by ships within 800-1500 tons.

                        In terms of money, it will turn out indecent, if we take the rather average per-ton cost of destroyers of that time, then your 1500-ton ship will cost about 225 thousand pounds, an 800-ton one - 120 thousand, while the same "Svetka" costs about 270 thousand , a 350-450-ton class fighter - in the region of 50-70 thousand pounds. You will also lose your armored decks, and, most likely, you will further reduce the number of destroyers in the 1st TOE. In addition, such ships will not have sufficient survivability to deal with armored cruisers (which have at least 2 six-inch guns and 3 120-mm cannons on board, and this is taking into account that the Japanese armored decks did not go alone, but piled up in a crowd), and most likely - and sufficient speed to effectively fight enemy fighters. I'm afraid it will turn out even worse than it was in reality - they will pounce in a crowd and stumble in quantity, and the economy will not allow riveting a sufficient number of such ships.
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        And thanks for the interesting discussion! We have not even deviated too much from the topic of "pebbles", we must understand why they are needed as a class and what the options could be.

                        Thank you! hi In general, I like the "stones", as domestic versions of various foreigners like the same "Emden" they are quite good for themselves, but the trouble is that a large number of them cannot be riveted, even if we refuse to build "goddesses" and "six-thousanders", and even in artillery plan with 120-mm cannons, they are rather weak against the Japanese armored decks. Therefore, the "cruising issue", IMHO, can be resolved only through its complete revision, otherwise in the RYA it turned out that there is a cruiser, but not enough, and not what is needed. No, they were gorgeous in places, but it is much more convenient to hammer in nails with a hammer than with a microscope ...

                        PS Not so good at me it turns out not to be distracted from work laughing
                      38. +1
                        16 July 2019 10: 06
                        As for the raider war - this is another big domestic jamb.


                        So it was prepared against England.
                        What does Japan have to do with it? In general, Japan did not perceive anyone as a potential adversary.
                        And the raider fleet is against England. Because a linear fleet commensurate with the English could never be created anyway
                      39. 0
                        16 July 2019 11: 57
                        And here it does not matter, against England or anyone else. Russia could not economically master the purely French raider doctrine, it had to follow its own path, which in our conditions had to be similar to the German one - there are special ships. if buildings raided, it was most likely because they did not have much of a way out (Emden and Spee's squadron, torn away from the metropolis).
                      40. +2
                        16 July 2019 05: 31
                        The price depends on the volume of production and the general development of the industry. With this, everything was fine with the British and Americans. Large volumes of civil and military fleet construction speak of this. The Germans, in principle, did not pursue cheapness. The French too. They fed their industry.
                        Current experience says that comparing prices here and there is the last thing. If you want to develop your industry, the system is here. Need a low price - buy there. But there will be no industry. On this, not one country ended with development and existence.
                        So the sense of all this tsifir hundred years ago in terms of budget things is zero. And from the point of view of the development of industry and the country, on the contrary, it is interesting.
                      41. +3
                        16 July 2019 02: 57
                        Quote: arturpraetor
                        Mikasa. Somewhere in the region of 900 thousand without weapons, and maybe armor. Total cost - around £ 1,7 million

                        Dear Artyom, much less. I came across an American newspaper of that time, where the cost of "Mikasa" is indicated with an accuracy of one yen. The Yankees in the article compared the cost of American and British battleships, wondered and made predictions, when will they finally equalize with the British in price?
                        "Mikasa" "everything about everything" cost the Japanese a little more than fourteen million yen, I don't remember hundreds and tens of thousands. There is a contract value in Top Secret History, but it does not reflect the entirety of the picture.
                      42. 0
                        16 July 2019 12: 01
                        Quote: Comrade
                        Dear Artem, much less.

                        Therefore, he indicated 1,7 million as a figure from a very murky source. Well, "Mikasa" cannot be more expensive than "Lord Nelson"!
                        Quote: Comrade
                        "Mikasa" "everything about everything" cost the Japanese a little more than fourteen million yen, I don't remember hundreds and tens of thousands.

                        At the exchange rate - from 1,4 to 1,5 million pounds. It is quite plausible. Thank you for specifics. hi

                        By the way, dear colleague, and on the American battleships do not give information? I searched for it in my time, but found almost nothing, no figures for comparison, but it would be interesting.
                      43. +2
                        16 July 2019 02: 42
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        sclerosis tells me that Vickers paid 780 thousand pounds for Mikasa. and for the Ansaldo Garibaldians 750 thousand

                        Dear Ivan, if you take the cost of "Mikasa" with all the "minced meat", then it will be the approximate equivalent of two "Garibaldians" bought by the Japanese, +/- several tens of thousands of pounds. "Garibaldians" left for Japan not fully equipped in several positions, and the Japanese had to buy and install something there at their own expense.
                      44. +3
                        15 July 2019 16: 58
                        Quote: AK64
                        And to put the Garibaldians in line ....


                        Dear Andrei.
                        I think it is worth noting that the Garibaldians were developed more than ten years before the Russo-Japanese War. The Italians designed them for their needs and tasks, the fact that these ships were not liked by large countries is understandable. Having such a ship with the quantitative composition of their fleets, Latin America, immediately raised their status. The purchase of these ships by the Japanese is an attempt to purchase already, something ready for the start of hostilities.
                        Not a big excerpt from the trials of one Garibaldian published in 1900.

                        ".....the armored cruiser Varese completed its first natural-draft test on October 20, when for six hours the average speed was 96 per minute, providing 9 liters. with. and speed of 200 knots. Coal consumption was 18,3 pounds per hour, which was found to be very satisfactory.... "
                      45. +1
                        15 July 2019 18: 40
                        I think it is worth noting that the Garibaldians were developed more than ten years before the Russo-Japanese War.

                        Yes, everything is clear, as it is clear, and the fact that before the RYAV, almost everyone believed that the contribution of 6 "guns in a linear battle would be large and significant. But it does not matter who and what thought --- what matters is that both Asamoids and Garibaldians are quite unsuccessful investments. money.

                        If dominance over the sea is captured in a linear battle, then the only conclusion is that it is linear forces that are needed first of all.
                      46. +1
                        15 July 2019 20: 55
                        And if he doesn’t catch up with Mikas Gromoboy, and he will drown all the merchants insolently? That's why counter-raiders are needed. And imagine a couple of Drakes in Vladivostok - everyone is covered with a copper basin. Japanese shipping by sea
                        And will it be easy for you from 4 more Mikasa?
                      47. +1
                        16 July 2019 10: 14
                        And if he doesn’t catch up with Mikas Gromoboy, and he will drown all the merchants insolently? That's why counter-raiders are needed.

                        .... which the Japanese did not have: Asamoids or Garibaldians are NOT counter-raiders. (Or --- unsuitable counter-raiders)
                      48. +1
                        16 July 2019 10: 42
                        I agree, unfit. But the animeshniki, when they were ordered, thought - that’s it. They were cruelly mistaken. To counter the cruising war, Japan was completely unprepared. She was saved that Russia turned out to be unprepared for the cruising war even more - but they were going to butt with England itself
                      49. +1
                        16 July 2019 22: 38
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I agree, unfit. But the animeshniki, when they were ordered, thought - that’s it. They were cruelly mistaken. To counter the cruising war, Japan was completely unprepared.

                        I don’t quite understand why, in your opinion, the Japanese should see a counter-trader in Asamah? They were originally planned as the fleet wing of a linear squadron. This even number - six pieces by the number of armadillos - suggests. :)

                        The Japanese had their own, real, experience of naval warfare with China. And they were convinced of the need for a high-speed detachment in a general battle.
                      50. +1
                        16 July 2019 13: 05
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        And imagine a couple of Drakes in Vladivostok - everyone is covered with a copper basin. Japanese shipping by sea

                        To overlap all sea, a whole squadron of Drakes is needed, perhaps not even one.
                      51. +1
                        16 July 2019 14: 23
                        And to raise freight rates many times more than a couple is more than enough)
                        Do you think that if you want to sink at least five percent of the working tonnage, those who wish to carry cargo in line will line up?
                        This is not WWII, it’s not about protecting your homeland, it’s purely for the loot
                      52. +1
                        16 July 2019 16: 19
                        But the transportation of the "copper basin" will not be covered, just as they did not cover themselves at the USA from the successes of "Alabama".
                        In general, the PMSM path of superraders is a dead end. Not to mention the fact that "Drake" is not a fig not a raider, but quite the opposite - the Defender :)) Actually, on this we made a mistake. "Rurik" at the time of creation is a kapets super-duper raider, but ten years later it is a weak link and a target. And with "Drake" the same song, ten years later the battlecruisers are already driving, which any armored cruiser is one tooth.
                        Makarov at one time wrote that instead of one raider in 12000 tons, release four at sea on 3000.
                      53. +1
                        16 July 2019 17: 13
                        they did not cover themselves at the USA from the successes of "Alabama"


                        what was sunk by all the southerners' raiders for all time from strength amounted to 5% of the tonnage of only the USA, not to mention the tonnage turning around on these routes
                        there are many reasons for this. starting from the embarrassment of sinking the USS ships that hung a neutral flag, and ending with the fact that Ms. Alabama often hung out in the wrong place, IMHO (what kind of boat did she walk in the Indian Ocean?)
                        dependence of the USA on maritime trade, of course, took place, but against the backdrop of Japan it was simply no, and the troops of the USA did not need to transport and supply anywhere across the sea

                        "Drake" is not a fig not a raider, but quite the opposite - Defender :))


                        let's just say, the speed of the Drake allowed it to perform almost any function, including, for example, squadron reconnaissance, and even in a linear battle it was incomparably more useful than the asamoids, since precisely due to its enormous speed, such cruisers could arrange "crossing-T"

                        path of super traders dead end


                        if there is something to intercept them, only then is there a dead end. "Drake" in RYAV, it is certainly not "Goeben" in WWI, but it is also a big nuisance: it will catch up and destroy an armored deck, easily break away from any armored enemy

                        ten years later they rule linear cruisers


                        Well, yes, but for 10 years it was quite robust to steer before their appearance, in addition, by 1914, the Drake was much less obsolete than the Kent or Devonshire

                        Makarov at one time wrote that instead of one raider in 12000 tons, release four at sea on 3000.


                        I don’t remember something, who managed to squeeze in 3000 tons the range and seaworthiness suitable for the raider, and also with decent speed, especially on the excitement
                        easier then good merchant in the raider remake
                        the thing for which I like as a raider "Drake" is that if for the first two "Bogatyr" is a death sentence, then for "Drake" it is an excellent combat score
                      54. The comment was deleted.
                      55. 0
                        26 July 2019 14: 14
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        all that was sunk by all raiders of the southerners for all the time from the force amounted to 5% of the tonnage only USA

                        Fine! because your wish is fulfilled :)))
                        Do you think that if you want to sink at least five percent of the working tonnage, those who wish to carry cargo in line will line up?

                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        even in linear combat, he was incomparably more useful than asamoids

                        The late Admiral von Spee fiercely smiled in the next world :))
                        but for 10 years to break up before their appearance could be robust

                        their time ended much faster. The Wakanto Okupanto was commissioned in 1904. The Regina Elena and the Scharnhorst in 1907.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I don’t remember something, who managed to squeeze in 3000 tons the range and seaworthiness suitable for the raider, and also with decent speed, especially on the excitement

                        Although "Emden" was founded later, it differs little from its classmates of the previous type.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        "Bogatyr" then for "Drake" is an excellent combat score

                        Maximum - earn conjunctivitis from the smoke of a cruiser leaving at all pairs.
                        easier then good merchant in the raider remake

                        And the cost of "Drake" auxiliary cruisers can be equipped so much that I was banned last time when I tried to express it mathematically :)))))
                      56. 0
                        26 July 2019 17: 15
                        Good afternoon, dear colleague!

                        for all time from the force amounted to 5% of the tonnage only the USA

                        and compare mine:
                        5% of the turnover are figures that are excellent by an order of magnitude
                        let's be honest, "Alabama" is never an example, as it wandered wherever it was not necessary
                        + the level of dependence of the USA and Japan on imports is slightly different

                        Admiral von Spee

                        Coronel is the result of poor training and weak command, the design of "Drakes" has to do with it? And so you can continue ... Based on the results of one battle, some conclude that Borodino is not an EBR) Don't be so hasty)

                        Although Emden was laid later

                        by the time the Emden was laid down, Von der Tann had already been ordered and they began to scratch their turnip about the subsequent type (Moltke and Goeben)
                        and on the date of the beginning of the RYAV, the Germans had only Gazelle in service)

                        "Scharnhorst"

                        salvo of about 770 kg, against 710 kg "Drake", the speed is lower, the cruising range is less
                        oops, wait a minute, I think you should speak for "Friedrich Karl" and "Bayan", at best
                        otherwise I'll have to talk about "Invincible"

                        "Regina Elena"

                        food for the "Dreadnought",
                        understand, "Dreadnought" has somewhat devalued the battleships,
                        but at the same time it turned armored cruisers with a speed of less than 23 knots into a mockery and useless trash, the conditional "Rurik", which looked cool in 1905, not to mention the Japanese built after the ROY, became obsolete not because they could not resist the Invincible, but because she couldn't escape the Dreadnought

                        Shl. Do you really believe in the characteristics of the "Reggie" declared by the macaroni? Well, like there are 10 miles of cruising range feel

                        earn conjunctivitis

                        I certainly understand that Drake ran out of 24 knots on one of the runs, and Leviathan ran out of 25 for only a few minutes, but even I think it would be very hard for “Bogatyr” and “Novik” to run from them + do not forget, that the Drake's size gives it an edge on the seas, and the propulsion system is advertised as being super reliable and durable
                      57. 0
                        26 July 2019 20: 19
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        the design of "Drakes" got to do with?

                        Despite the fact that the Good Hope was sunk with eight-inches, and the Borodintsy needed the battleship main committee.
                        So the ten Italians cope. Whatever the cruising range.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        but it turned into a mockery and useless trash armored cruisers

                        What I'm talking about. Drake is a waste of money. Very specific ships that only the obscenely rich "Lady of the Seas" could afford
                      58. 0
                        27 July 2019 00: 17
                        Despite the fact that the Good Hope was sunk with eight-inches, and the Borodintsy needed the battleship main committee.


                        I actually wrote that they are better than the Asamoids, and I did not compare them with battleships
                        about "Borodino" it is, joke, to Nikolai;)
                        but their contemporary "Friedrich Karl" or "Bayan" (I repeat here) against their background are simply stupid freaks

                        What I'm talking about.


                        But no. "Drakes" had 23 knots according to the project, on tests a maximum of 25 for a short time ("Leviathan"),
                        on Belleville boilers (do you understand what it is: such speed on these boilers ?!)
                        because only they did not become obsolete with the appearance of the "Dreadnought", when the more armored and armed, but less fast-moving "Rurik 2" and all other "Tsukubas" turned into a laughing stock

                        Very specific ships


                        The fight between "Thunderbolt" and "Drake" is a death sentence for the Russian raider, since after serious damage he is doomed (at the Brits and the base and help, and he will fight off everyone and drag the damaged one halfway across the world, which is unrealistic)
                        "Bogatyr" from "Drake" is not a fact that he will run away, "Novik" is also not a fact, and even without coal will remain
                        And in a squadron battle, 23 knots will allow crossing any Mikasa

                        Good evening!
                      59. 0
                        27 July 2019 12: 54
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Fight "Thunderbolt" with "Drake"

                        Why would it suddenly? "Russia" and "Thunderbolt" were two against four asamoids with approximately equivalent weapons (because two 9,2 "do not have a decisive advantage over four 8") The weather was excellent, so the seaworthiness was enough for the asamoids.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        (understand in general what it is: such a speed on these boilers ?!)

                        I understand that, but you are afraid, no.
                        What makes you think that it is difficult to keep steam on them? Exactly the opposite is easier. They are simpler, more reliable, they are easier to maintain, they do not have stupid bends of tubes (boilers are rectangular).
                        Their disadvantage is that they are heavy. And if you use triangular boilers (Yarou or Tornikrofty), then they, for the same weight, will be more, therefore, they will give more steam .... but at a specified time, they are not entirely reliable.
                        The British acted simply - they stuffed a damn lot of boilers, reliably providing the cars with steam. But the result is a damn big, but relatively weakly armed and weakly armored "defender of trade". His Majesty's fleet could afford it, but no one else.
                        And this ... Dreadnoughts don't chase cruisers. They have different tasks. And even battle cruisers were attracted for this only once. When the Drakes and their descendants showed their complete helplessness.
                      60. 0
                        27 July 2019 15: 01
                        "Russia" and "Thunderbolt" were together against four asamoids with approximately equivalent weapons


                        correct me, if that, but Kamimura intentionally did not go into close combat for a possible exchange

                        I understand that


                        these are the most reliable boilers of their time,
                        as well as heavy and dimensional
                        correct me if that happens, but Crump and each of the subsequent builders with calculations convinced MTC of the impossibility of reaching the 23 warship with the use of Belleville boilers

                        Dreadnought not chasing cruisers


                        brkr in a squadron battle: reconnaissance and crossing - how do you order them to be carried out if the main enemy forces have the same speed as the brkr?

                        When the Drakes and their descendants showed their complete helplessness.


                        I repeat once again:
                        Three shells hit the Scharnhorst, no casualties.
                        A 4 projectile hit the Gneisenau, two wounded.
                        And here is the design of the cruisers, if the crews failed?

                        More examples will be?
                      61. 0
                        27 July 2019 16: 25
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        correct me if that happens, but Crump and each of the subsequent builders with calculations convinced MTC of the impossibility of reaching the 23 warship with the use of Belleville boilers

                        I will correct. Crump and others were tied by displacement. The British are not designing "Drakes".
                        In a displacement of six-thousanders and the British were getting "Highfliners"
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        brkr in squadron battle

                        absolutely nothing to do. In the same way as the casemate battleships of Lissa times, there is nothing to do in squadron battles of the RNW.
                        For reconnaissance and other things during WWI, there were ships built at a different technological level.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Three shells hit the Scharnhorst, no casualties.
                        A 4 projectile hit the Gneisenau, two wounded.
                        And here the design of cruisers

                        Thunderbolt and Russia received about 30 shells each, but they returned to Vladivostok.
                        Sorry, but you are saying that Drakes can be put in a line. I am trying to convey to you the idea that they are not suitable for this at all, because there they will meet with weapons much more powerful than 210mm ShiG cannons. And from the training of the crew, their armor will not become thicker.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        More examples will be?

                        Examples of what?
                      62. 0
                        27 July 2019 17: 21
                        Crump and others were tied by displacement. The British are not designing Drakes.


                        "Lancaster" (type "Kent" - with a limited displacement) on tests for 8 hours held 24 knots, with boilers "Belleville"
                        By the way, I thought that the share of power plants in% of our six-thousanders is greater than that of Drake and his followers, isn't it?

                        In the displacement of six thousandths


                        "Highflyer" was worth 280 thousand pounds,
                        "Eclipses" from 240 thousand pounds - they were specially made as cheap as possible,
                        no one ever set the task to develop high speed in front of them and it’s very big guard

                        "Thunderbolt" and "Russia" got about 30 shells in each


                        an example with the number of hits I led to the fact that Cradock’s ships were not able to shoot, maneuver normally and fight for survivability - low training of crews from reservists

                        By the way, personally, I think "Thunderbolt" was completely in vain was not chosen as the founder of a series of ocean raiders - to finish it off and it would be an excellent ship for mass construction in Russia: simple from a technological point of view and reliable
                        IMHO, on the basis of Coronel it is very naive to assert that the combat survivability of the Drake is lower than that of the Thunderbolt

                        It’s not right to line up the brkr in principle (just from hopelessness) - brkr are needed for crossing and should cover the opponent’s head, acting ahead of the main forces
                        Drake's 23 knots made it easy for him to cross Mikas
                        for crossing "Dreadnought" already needs 25 knots, that's why Fischer tried to achieve them by "Invincible" AT ANY PRICE
                        19 knots "Kassugi", 20 knots "Yakumo", a maximum of 20,5 knots "Bayan" and even 21 knots "Rurik 2" - fun already against the background of the "Duncan", and with the advent of the "Dreadnought" they have become quite miserable

                        from crew training, their armor will not become thicker


                        but get the Spee cruisers equal to the number of hits with the British, it is not known how the battle at Coronel would go
                        by the way, Cradock was correctly given the "Canopus", if something goes wrong - British hunters should always be able to make their legs to the colonial battleship,
                        and if according to the results of the battle all wounded animals - here the colonial armadillo comes and drowns opponents for free (if he catches up with damaged opponents, of course)

                        Examples of what?


                        how "Drakes" and their followers were brutally tolerated by their classmates
                      63. 0
                        28 July 2019 09: 19
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        "Lancaster" (type "Kent" - with a limited displacement) on tests for 8 hours held 24 knots, with boilers "Belleville"

                        "Asama" with cylindrical clocked to 23, so what? The "Kents", with a displacement similar to the Asamoids, had thinner armor, weaker armament, and it cannot be said that autonomy was striking.
                        Another example is money down the drain.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        by the way, I personally think "Thunderbolt" was completely in vain was not chosen as the founder of a series of ocean raiders - to finish it

                        And it would have turned out "Scharnhorst" :)))
                        by the way, Cradock was correctly given "Canopus"

                        What would Sir Christopher never catch up with von Spee? :)))
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        how "Drakes" and their followers were brutally tolerated by their classmates

                        The British were smart enough not to send them into battle again, but to use them as "defenders of trade"
                      64. 0
                        28 July 2019 11: 22
                        what?


                        it's just that the British brkr seem to be faster than even the "Bogatyr", despite the Belleville boilers, and so nothing

                        Another example is money down the drain.


                        which would make cowardly hide any bpkr any probable adversary

                        And it would turn out "Scharnhorst"


                        no, it would not work, I would leave the doped up "Thunderbolt" casemate, so as not to turn it into a "Victory", but leave it as simple as possible for mass construction

                        in no case caught up


                        chasing the brkr (a few hours), and then, if something is wrong, they make their legs to the colonial battleship,
                        and if so, we have a bunch of wounded animals and a colonial battleship on the way
                      65. 0
                        28 July 2019 11: 30
                        Colleague, let's dot the i.
                        I want to remind you that I started this discussion only after your words of praise addressed to "Drake" and this is how you have it, and that ...
                        My reasons are as follows:
                        As an anti-trader, it is excessively large and expensive (especially roads), as a potential participant in a linear battle is not sufficiently armed and armored. Only England could afford such unbalanced ships and repeating them in any other fleet would be an unforgivable mistake. Sobsno, they did not repeat.
                        That's all I wanted to say.
                      66. 0
                        28 July 2019 11: 49
                        Let's set it up.

                        it is excessively large and expensive (especially expensive)


                        name the anti-rader against "Thunderbolt" which is better suited

                        as a potential participant in the linear battle is not sufficiently armored


                        because I said that in the course of such a battle, his task is precisely crossing, since it is here that he realizes his amazing speed as his main argument

                        as a potential participant in the linear battle is not sufficiently armed


                        therefore (six months ago I already had a similar discussion with Ansar), I wrote that several of them need to be together in order for the crossing of the conditional "Tsarevich" to be effective

                        great and expensive (especially expensive)


                        "Cressy" 760 thousand pounds
                        "Drake" 996 thousand pounds
                        "Kents" 750 thousand pounds
                        Devonshire 848 thousand pounds

                        I would not say that the increase in the capabilities of "Drake" against "Cressy" or "Kent" does not correspond to the increase in value, but the money down the drain is the "Devonshire"

                        Only England could afford


                        what's better? Nissin + Kassuga + Asama + Yakumo or 3 Drakes?
                      67. 0
                        28 July 2019 12: 58
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        "Drake" 996 thousand pounds which is better?

                        if we talk about RIF, then a normal battleship for the same money.
                        antirader against "Thunderbolt"

                        against "Thunderbolt" - four "Drakes" Against "Rurik" "Powerful" and "Teribl" ...
                        Yet in vain the main perverts believe the Franks.
                        You know, as for me, instead of "Bogatyr" it was possible to build something "Prinzegenrich-yakumo-like".
                        9000 tons (+ \ -), 21 node. 2-254 in the towers and tens of 152 in the casemates.
                        This, for a number of reasons, would be a good one, but at the same time a real option for the RIF.
                      68. 0
                        28 July 2019 13: 31
                        You know, as for me, instead of "Bogatyr" it was possible to build something "Prinzegenrich-yakumo-like". 9000 tons (+ \ -), 21 knots. 2-254 in towers and ten 152 in casemates.


                        only this treasure should still run out of 20 nodes

                        normal battleship for the same money


                        has all the advantages except the inability to fight on communications

                        if we talk about the reef


                        if you know for sure that the fate of the war will be decided against the Japanese in the Yellow Sea, then you don't need "Varyag" + "Askold" + "Bogatyr" + "Bayan", but you need 2 more EBRs "Retvizan 2" and "Tsarevich 2" and 1 " Gazelle "to them as an advice

                        against "Thunderbolt" - four "Drakes"


                        good to be healthy and rich)
                      69. 0
                        28 July 2019 16: 48
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        good to be healthy and rich)

                        Not without it.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        the fate of the war will be decided against the Japanese in the Yellow Sea

                        What is it?
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        only this treasure should still run out of 20 nodes

                        "Roon"
                      70. 0
                        28 July 2019 19: 26
                        Not without it.


                        There is a good saying, "I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things" - right on Drake:
                        "quality without compromise" - people are lucky)

                        What is it?


                        Japan had to unconditionally defeat ZhM, and then another PA and further to Mukden and Tsushima, to win all the battles, the Russians just had to win any of the battles to win the war, because in ZhM the Russians could immediately decide everything in their favor completely

                        "Roon"


                        ran out, and "Prince Henry" could not even on trials)
                      71. 0
                        28 July 2019 21: 27
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I'm not rich enough to buy cheap things.

                        Not the case.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        in gm

                        Did not solve anything.
                        in fact, the victory in this battle (the passage of the squadron in Vladivostok) only worsened the operational situation.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        ran out, and "Prince Henry" could not even on trials

                        And for whom did I write "figurative"?
                      72. 0
                        28 July 2019 21: 54
                        Not the case.


                        exactly the one, "Drakes" were outdated slower than "Kents" and much slower than "Bayans 2", which were outdated already at the time of issuing an order for them

                        passage of the squadron to Vladivostok


                        no, I did not mean flight, that is, a breakthrough, but a victory, well, like: there were also "Alexander 3", "Oslyabya" and "Sisoy", therefore they sunk "Fuji" and "Nissin", lost "Sisoy" ", Togo retreated, did hara-kiri, anime people came humbly to beg for peace)

                        And for whom did I write "figurative"


                        here you need to decide: or a belt of 100 mm and then "Friedrich Karl" with 21 knots,
                        or a belt of 178 mm and then "Yakumo" with 20 knots and disgusting seaworthiness
                        and this is "not plus or minus 9000 tons", but almost 10 000

                        Shl. about the thickness of the armor and "Drake" is not a tenant
                        in the RYAV several cases of penetration of 152-mm armor of the Japanese by Russian 12 "shells were recorded, while the distance was by no means great, as I understand it
                        also in RYAV not a single one is recorded, correct me, if anything, penetration of Japanese armor from 178 mm inclusive (that Krupp, that Garvey) Russian 12 "shells
                        The British had a 152-mm belt on the Canopuses and a 178-mm belt on the Duncans, which means they believed that the Duncans would quite cope with individual hits in 12 "at an average distance, IMHO

                        in general, a 100 mm belt is not an option, but the 152 mm is already very good against all but 12 inches, for the latter this is the limit of actual armor penetration in the REV
                      73. 0
                        28 July 2019 22: 25
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        152-mm is already very good against all but 12 inches,

                        And the fact that "Good Hope" was drowned with 210 mm ShiG does not really confirm your opinion
                      74. 0
                        28 July 2019 22: 35
                        not really confirms your opinion


                        I already wrote that the German 210-mm PMV period were much more dangerous than the analogs of the period RNW

                        Understand, when they designed the same "Sevastopol" the 225-mm belt was considered by many to be "strongly in reserve", since 203-mm according to the experience of RYAV + a little more reserve for the progress of artillery is enough
                        it just so happened that the actual armor penetration over 10 years has grown very, very
                      75. 0
                        29 July 2019 09: 30
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I already wrote that the German 210-mm PMV period were much more dangerous than the analogs of the period RNW

                        They wrote, I don't argue. It is not clear just why you wrote this, because old guns with a long barrel of 40 calibers were on the ShiG. Just the times of RYAV. This is already 45 caliber on "Blucher". Those are really more powerful.

                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        very very

                        Lope?
                      76. 0
                        30 July 2019 00: 59
                        Lope?


                        Sorry, I just got to the computer.

                        If you bother, then for a start we will consider a textbook example with 305-mm Obukhov guns (everything is taken into account 100500 times)

                        Bulk Vipons gives armor penetration for 305/40 projectile mod. 1892 year
                        201 mm at 5,5 km
                        Melnikov also gives armor penetration for a 305/40 projectile mod. 1892 year
                        200 mm at 5,5 km
                        The experience of the RPE shows that at a distance of 5,5 km one should expect penetration of the armor of 152 mm with a regular armored explosion, no evidence of penetration of 178 mm and thicker

                        Thus, for the 305/40 projectile arr. 1892, the penetration limit of a projectile capable of an armored explosion is between 160 and 200 mm, it is possible to arbitrarily accept about 178 mm from 30 kb

                        Based on experimental shooting and calculations Berkalov 305/52 shell arr. 1911/13, it is necessary to expect penetration of the armor at 280-305 mm with a regular armored explosion from a distance of 11 km,

                        Lateral load of manpower for 305/52 projectile arr. 1911/13 year surpasses that for the 305/40 projectile mod. 1892 a third

                        Accordingly, the resulting quality of the projectile relative to the armor increased by more than one and a half times

                        Recalculation according to de Marr shows that if K for a la "Krupp quality 420" versus 305/52 shell arr. 1911/13 will be about 1850, then K for a la "Krupp quality 420" versus 305/40 arr. 1892 will be around 2300

                        German shells went a similar development path, with insufficient data for the calculation, I presume the growth of their danger is proportional

                        Conclusion: 210-mm Scharnhorst guns with shells that are: with a high degree of sharpness, made of good steel, with a good armor-piercing tip and competent fairing, with TNT, with a normal fuse = 10 "Victory" guns are stronger, although they are inferior to 12 " guns "Borodintsev"
                      77. 0
                        30 July 2019 08: 54
                        Strongly pushed, respect!
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        210-mm "Scharnhorst" guns with shells that: with a high degree of sharpness, made of good steel, with a good armor-piercing tip and a competent fairing, with TNT, with a normal fuse = stronger than 10 "Pobeda" guns

                        Colleague, I understand that you are a communist, but fear God!
                        Assuming that the 40 gauges (we are equally like the Germans) will have better ballistics than the 45 gauges (and even a larger caliber, sorry for tautology) a little bit strange.
                        "Scharnhorst" was laid down in 1905, at the same time they ordered cannons and B / C, and in 1909 it rustled in Qingdao and did not appear in the metropolis again.
                        Yes, the German shells greatly added to the PRC, but mainly because they were earlier ... (they would ban me again if I wrote down what it was)
                      78. 0
                        30 July 2019 09: 26
                        Yes, German shells greatly added to WWI


                        uh, this is a whole dissertation now you will demand from me
                        ok, since such a booze started - I’ll choose half a day this week, look at Corbett and Puzyrevsky, trying to give the calculated values

                        in order not to be fanatical, I will immediately say that the 210-mm guns of the Germans penetrated 152-mm groups of "Drake" from a distance of much more than 30 kb
                        Krupp on the "Drake" and the Japanese stood the same
                        305-mm guns "Borodino" pierced 152-mm groups of Japanese from a distance of about 30 kb
                        previously once estimated estimated shells arr. 1892 - a very poor quality was obtained, only the impact strength in advantages
                        preliminary conclusion: Germans of the PMV at the expense of shells are better than the 210-mm RIF of the period of the REV for any

                        I do not know what exactly lay in the cellars of the Scharhnorst, but this was something at a very serious level for WWI and incomparably better than what was in the RYV at the RIF

                        so, if without calculations, I will calculate a little later
                      79. 0
                        28 July 2019 09: 34
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        brkr need for crossing and should cover the head of the enemy, acting in front of the main forces

                        By the way, where have you ever seen such things that BRKR organized cross-country and so on?
                        Contrary to popular misconception, the Japanese did not view the Asamoids as a "fast wing" or vanguard. In any case, in all the battles of the RYAV they went behind armadillos, but certainly not ahead.
                      80. 0
                        28 July 2019 11: 11
                        and where did you see this in general, so that DBKR would arrange crossing and so on?


                        and where did you see the brkr among the Japanese? they had rank 2 battleships "Asamoids" and 3 rank battleships "Kassuga" and "Nissin"
                        I told you that such a brkr as "Drake" due to the ability to arrange crossing even for the newest battleship will be much more useful in squadron combat than such a battleship of rank 2, cham "Asama", although it was also called brkr, sorry, I expressed his attitude to its positioning, using the traditional terminology "brkr", which misled you about his position

                        In any case, in all the battles of the REV they followed the battleships.


                        according to combat instructions Togo: the speed of the first armored squad - 15 knots, the speed of the second armored squad - 17 knots, it was possible to independently use the advantage in speed, including to cover the enemy’s head (and this even if it was understood that they were rank 2 battleships )

                        another thing is that, for example, in the Tsushima battle, the Russians gave 9 knots and, in fact, they themselves got into crossing for both flagships, therefore a faster wing was never needed
                      81. 0
                        28 July 2019 11: 21
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        and where did you see the brkr among the Japanese? they had rank 2 battleships "Asamoids" and 3 rank battleships "Kassuga" and "Nissin"

                        Has your account opened up Passer? :)))
                        Colleague, it is a very bad idea to cross with armored cruisers, even Drakes with Kents, or Asamoids with Garibaldians ...
                        Although your words can be interpreted as "never seen" :)
                      82. 0
                        28 July 2019 11: 36
                        "I haven't seen it anywhere" :)


                        nor did I see a nuclear war "USSR - USA", but this does not mean that it was not planned and was not possible

                        Has your account opened up Passer? :)))


                        no, but in a number of cases he is right, the positioning of "asamoids" as battleships of the 2nd class historically goes back to the "ideal battleship" of the chief of the MGSH Admiral Kabayam, as I understand it, in the absence of a suitable project of a universal brkr, there were many supporters to cut high-speed battleships 2 for this money class (whole party led by Admiral Marquis Ito)
                        the positioning of "asamoids" as "class 2 fast battleships" is widespread

                        with the Garibaldians ...

                        is it who has a real speed of 16, a maximum of 18 knots in Packingham? )

                        at least "Drakes"


                        the armor of "Drake" is slightly weaker than that of "Asam", but the fact that the combat stability of "Drake" is lower than that of "Asam" is a very big question, which means that the line would be about the same, and with crossing the number of hits would not be great it was exactly

                        "Kentami"

                        this is already a scam, about crossing "Kent" I did not write, "Kent" - to scoff at "Varyag"
                      83. 0
                        28 July 2019 12: 44
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        maximum 18 nodes

                        Duc is a five-knot difference with the Witgeft squadron, like the Drake over a hypothetical 18-knot EBR.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        combat stability of "Drake" is lower than that of "Asam" - a very big question

                        No. "Nisin" was under fire 305mm, but "Good Hope" was enough and 210. And no matter how accurately he shot at the battleship, that 9,2 "that the elephant is a grain, but 12 will fly in response."
                        With normal shells - not a tenant.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        this is a scam

                        And there are only four "Drakes", you need to help them tongue
                      84. 0
                        28 July 2019 13: 15
                        And there are only four "Drakes", you have to help them tongue


                        they would not be worth helping if it was for the stinginess of "their Lords"
                        instead of money down the drain in the form of "Kents" and especially "Devonshires" to drive "Drakes" in a large series
                        the same money - more sense

                        With normal shells


                        Is it the same for enemies? - Togo shells of the "Russian arr. 1911" type drowns all 2 TOEs in the first hour of the battle, so you can continue indefinitely

                        not a tenant.


                        152 mm belt + coal + 37 mm bevel - with 30 kb 305 mm projectile mod. 1892 will not break through

                        "Nisin" was under fire 305mm, but "Good Hope" was enough and 210.


                        the whole question is how much and wherever
                        are there any design features that allow us to consider the protection and survivability of "Drakes"
                        insufficient against 4-6 hits of a 305-mm shell mod. 1892 and a half dozen six-inch
                        from a distance of 30 kb?
                        German 210-mm WWI period were much more dangerous than their 203-mm counterparts of the RYAV period, primarily due to shells, for RYAV the armor of "Drakes" was sufficient

                        And no matter how accurately he shot at the battleship, that 9,2 "that the elephant is a shot, but 12 will fly in response."


                        Actually, the "Eagle" from 6 "and 8" suffered a lot. And if 4 Drakes shoots at 1 EBR?

                        So five knots difference with Witgeft squadron


                        this is if the head 4 do not go 16,5 knots suddenly)
                      85. 0
                        28 July 2019 16: 44
                        Colleague, remember when the "Garibaldians" were developed. They are fast enough for their year, and in 1904 they are (conceptually) as much as "good hope" under Coronel.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Actually, the "Eagle" from 6 "and 8" suffered a lot.

                        Well, Kostenko claimed that only 12 "was 40 :)))
                        According to Japanese data 12 "- 12; 8" -7; 6 "- about 20. That is, he" suffered "not from 8" :)))
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        And if 4 Drakes shoots at 1 EBR?

                        The British did not know how to do this in WWI. Even in Jutland, mostly whipped one on one.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        German 210-mm of the PMA period were much more dangerous than their 203-mm analogs of the RNW period

                        Extremely controversial statement.
                      86. 0
                        28 July 2019 19: 20
                        Extremely controversial statement.


                        indisputable) - there was neither TNT nor normal fuses in the REV

                        Shl. “Invincible” was better than “Drake” protected, but not that incomparable
                        even the Germans did not do much damage to the Falklands

                        Even in Jutland


                        there were distances and speeds of a completely different level when shooting was required

                        "he suffered" not from 8 ":)))


                        "It is obvious that the Eagle received no more than 70 hits, of which 12-inch - only 6 or 7." (Kofman)
                        Japanese damage schemes, on the contrary, indicate mainly medium-caliber holes in the "Eagle"

                        and in 1904 to them (conceptually)


                        latest ships on the old project
                      87. 0
                        28 July 2019 21: 35
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        “Invincible” was better than “Drake” protected, but not that incomparable
                        even the Germans did not do much damage to the Falklands

                        Yes, but you are proposing to release him (Drake) against the battleships, and it seems to me that the result will be the same as under Coronel, only faster. Because Fisher's cats (for all the absurdity of the concept) could inflict GI losses, and Drake could not.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        "It is obvious that the Eagle received no more than 70 hits, of which 12-inch - only 6 or 7." (Kofman

                        On Kofman's conscience. But it is obvious that 12 "cause incomparably more damage than 8".
                        I'll tell you more. capital ships should not sink from 8 ".
                      88. 0
                        28 July 2019 22: 25
                        Yes, but you are proposing to release him (Drake) against the battleships


                        a crossing vessel will receive far fewer hits than in a line,
                        heels of 12 inches "Drake" must endure, well, if the cordite does not blaze there)

                        for all the absurdity of the concept


                        I will try to express it myself:
                        A heavy artillery ship in a general battle can perform one of two functions:
                        -stay in line (battleship)
                        - maneuverable wing, oriented, first of all, to crossing (cruiser)

                        requirements:
                        - "stand in line" - to endure multiple hits with main battery and be able to snap back painfully
                        - "maneuverable wing" - to have 20 percent, or even better advantage in speed over battleships, be able to knock out a battleship in a crowd, withstand several main battery hits

                        if Mikasa gives 18 knots and Duncan 19 knots, then for a maneuverable wing you need at least 22 knots,
                        if the "Dreadnought" gives 21 knots, then for a maneuverable wing even 25 knots is not enough, well, at the limit
                        Anyone who does not give 1903 knots in 22 - welcome to the line
                        everyone who does not give a speed of 1910 knots in 25 - also welcome to the line

                        "Yakumo" could tolerate multiple hits from the main battery, but would snap rather weakly, the conclusion of "Yakumo" is a weak ebr of rank 2
                        "Prince Heinrich" could not tolerate GK from the word in general, the conclusion "Prince Heinrich" is floating scrap metal
                        "Bayan" was not very armored, but very weakly armed, the conclusion is also disappointing: it can endure something, but to snap back - almost nothing

                        "Drake" - but they can play crossing, he doesn't have to endure so much
                        "Invincible" - but cordite would not explode in such quantities (sealed metal cases, fire doors, etc.) and everything would be thin, but within normal limits
                      89. 0
                        28 July 2019 22: 32
                        Following your logic. "Drake" could not stand the SC from the word in general, was armored worse than "Bayan", and never fit into the "maneuverable wing" at all.
                      90. 0
                        28 July 2019 22: 46
                        "Drake" could not stand SC from the word at all


                        why? 152-mm "Krupp" held in 1905 everything up to and including 254-mm, and 305-mm would be stuck in the corner, in extreme cases, damaging the bevel

                        was armored worse than "Bayan"


                        Is it just the vertical wall of Harvey? - do not agree

                        and never fit into the "maneuverable wing"


                        In the maneuverable wing in 1905, everyone was fit who would fulfill the following conditions at the same time:
                        - Faster than 22 knots
                        -has a belt no worse than 152 mm kruppa + bevel of the deck
                        - can threesome-foursome cast one battleship (ebr) in a hail of shells

                        i.e. Drake (1903) and Leon Gambetta (1905)
                      91. 0
                        29 July 2019 09: 39
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        152-mm "Krupp" held in 1905 everything up to and including 254-mm, and 305-mm would get stuck in the corner, in extreme cases, damaging the bevel

                        Why did you decide that?
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        - can threesome-foursome cast one battleship (ebr) in a hail of shells

                        i.e. Drake (1903) and Leon Gambetta (1905)

                        Scratched paint, of course, unpleasant, especially the boatswain team. But in order to inflict at least some damage, they will need to get close ... to the battleship's guns.
                      92. 0
                        30 July 2019 01: 10
                        Why did you decide that?


                        This is not what I decided, but the experience
                        if you find examples of penetration by Russians of 305/40 armor thicker than 152 mm - I will be grateful, I will calculate each

                        But in order to inflict at least some damage


                        50-60 bombs, even 152 mm each, will be a significant sadness for the conventional "Eagle", this time
                        There is an opinion that the 234-mm Drake's armor-piercing shell is quite slightly inferior to the 12 Borodino's, these are two
                      93. 0
                        30 July 2019 08: 57
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        eating the opinion that an AP shell for armor penetration 234-mm "Drake"

                        I will answer you with your own words
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        if you find examples of breaking through

                        Then let's talk.
                        You want to prove your point of view at all costs, this is understandable, but why should you carry a frank game?
                      94. 0
                        30 July 2019 09: 41
                        I will answer you with your own words


                        what for? let's see the plates for the 234-mm "Drake"

                        from 4 160 m it will be 23,4 cm
                        "British Battleships: 1860 to 1950".

                        from 5 480 m it will be 19.6 cm
                        from 8 230 m it will be 13,5 cm
                        "The Grand Fleet: Warship Design and Development 1906-1922"

                        also look at the plates for Borodino

                        from 5480 m it will be 20,0 cm
                        (Melnikov)


                        Then let's talk.


                        stop

                        it was you who stated that the 305-mm guns mod. 1895 shell arr. 1892 will easily amaze "Drake" that he is "not a tenant"
                        I told you that Drake's 152-mm "krupp" limit the actual armor penetration of a 305-mm gun mod. 1895 shell arr. 1892 following the results of the RYAV, therefore, firstly, it is not easy to break through, and secondly, he still has coal and bevel

                        Therefore, examples of the penetration of a 305-mm gun mod. 1895 shell arr. 1892 armor in 178-mm and thicker you need to look for, otherwise "Drake" is positioned as very worthy protected against "Borodino"
                        You are the one who needs to protect the "advertising" figure of 20,0 cm of penetration of the 305-mm gun mod. 1895 shell arr. 1892 from 30 KB

                        while to help you:



                        general idea of ​​the time about the armor penetration of guns in the REV (Russian and Japanese)

                        but you still have to protect these "advertising" numbers for RYAV from cutting

                        Shl. to throw off the actual penetration of armor by "Drake" to 152-mm from 30 kb I do not mind
                      95. 0
                        30 July 2019 09: 57
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        it was you who stated that the 305-mm guns mod. 1895 shell arr. 1892 will easily amaze "Drake" that he is "not a tenant"

                        Exaggerate, my dear :)) it was written
                        RџSЂRё normal shells - not a tenant.

                        I said that crossing with Drakes (and armored cruisers in general) was a stupid and dangerous idea. And no one has ever done this.
                        And it is interesting that you succeed, the Russian 330 kg projectile, breaking through the armor, will certainly get stuck in the corner, but the English 170kg (if I don’t confuse it), here it is ...
                        And by the way, in my opinion, the thickest plate that the Russian shell pierced in the RYAV (EMNIP) was just 178mm. But, alas, I don't remember the location. (it seems Andrey in "Myths of Tsushima" wrote about "Mikasa")
                      96. 0
                        30 July 2019 10: 41
                        I said that crossing with Drakes (and armored cruisers in general) is a stupid and dangerous idea.


                        With normal shells


                        with shells of the period RYAV - it is possible to try

                        and armored cruisers in general


                        "Gneisenau" received, I write from memory, at least 29 shells in 12 "
                        almost lost track
                        almost all artillery was defeated
                        but he was not going to drown in the foreseeable future - I had to open kingstones
                        Do not so indiscriminately about the low survivability of the BRKR

                        Russian 330 kg shell, breaking through the armor, will certainly get stuck in the corner, but English 170kg


                        will show a comparable result

                        but I talked about crossing, when 4 "Drakes" "roast one" (what am I saying!) shoot one "Tsarevich"

                        the thickest plate


                        I’ll look at the weekend, you can give it earlier - I’ll say thanks,
                        I have long wanted to calculate all the holes in the thick armor of the REV period and compile armor penetration tables
                      97. 0
                        30 July 2019 11: 06
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        with shells of the period RYAV - it is possible to try

                        I'm sorry, but apart from the Russian and Japanese fleets, there is no one else in the world?
                        In fact, in the vicinity of England is France, which has more cruisers (including raiders) and is closer to the trade routes connecting the British metropolis with the colonies. And the artillery from the Franks is very decent.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        but I talked about crossing, when 4 "Drakes" "roast one" (what am I saying!) shoot one "Tsarevich"

                        Colleague, although I am an alternative worker, I cannot imagine such a situation. If there was a war with England, the Drakes, as well as Cressy, will be busy with their direct business - to look for the Rurikovichs (and Franks, see Franco-Russian alliance) in the ocean. And completely different ships will take part in linear battles.
                      98. 0
                        30 July 2019 14: 05
                        except Russian and Japanese fleets


                        Japanese and British at that time had similar shells and identical armor
                        the French and Russians are quite similar in technology and solutions (I’m not ready about frank fuses yet), I know for sure that they didn’t even think about working out a battle at a distance of about 30 kb, therefore they are not ready for it at all
                        USA exactly neutral
                        shaved pasta and latinos could not take into account
                        the Germans remain a big mystery, it is not clear exactly when and for which particular weapons in what quantity they received good shells. but then they were still small and unsuccessful in the design of the battleships

                        although I'm an alternative


                        me too, albeit a slightly different kind
                        for me an alternative: the Japanese build 4 "Cressies" and 3 "Drakes" for money for the Asamoids and Garibaldians
                        or, for example, the Brits go to hardcore and build only the ultimate ships: 20 Drakes and no Kent with Devonshire
                        well, earlier the same way, no "Apollo" and "Diadem" only "Blakey" and "Powerful"
                        even somewhere there is a large sheet with calculations for money and terms
                      99. 0
                        30 July 2019 17: 45
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        for me an alternative: the Japanese build 4 "Cressies" and 3 "Drakes" for money for the Asamoids and Garibaldians

                        The Japanese have already pretty much messed up with the "asamoids", and you propose to aggravate this mistake?
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        only "Blakes" and "Powerfuls"

                        I am not aware that the opium was then sold freely, but ... there must be something heavier :))
                      100. 0
                        30 July 2019 19: 39
                        Do you propose to aggravate this mistake?


                        and what are your objective data that shaves in a squadron battle are weaker than asamoids?
                        in all other forms it is better, I think, there’s nothing to discuss here

                        here something harder is needed :))


                        what about the arguments?
                        Apollo averaged 200 thousand pounds
                        "Edgars" about 390 thousand pounds
                        "Blake" 433 thousand pounds, but in the series will be lower
                        attention the question: how frightened you think that 2 "Apollos" have greater combat value than 1 "Blake"
                        a) at the time of construction?
                        b) in a 5-year period?
                        c) in a 10-year term?
                        d) in the 15-year term?

                      101. 0
                        30 July 2019 21: 45
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        and what are your objective data that shaves in a squadron battle are weaker than asamoids?

                        "Drakes" are roughly equivalent to Asamoids, but more expensive. "Kents" are weaker for the same (I think so) money. And the super-duper range of japam is not really needed. It was enough for them, by the way, the Asamoids are not so bad at it.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        what a fright you think

                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        only "Blakes" and "Powerfuls"

                        large armored decks are evil. "Blake" - "Orlando" without side armor, but at the price as if it is.
                        And the latter themselves were considered a mistake by the British.
                      102. 0
                        30 July 2019 22: 43
                        "Orlando"


                        speed 17 knots (Blake has 21)
                        armored belt 61 x 1,7 m in fact was below the overhead line due to overload
                        alas and ah, "Orlando" is an unsuccessful battleship of rank 3

                        and the act of 1889 in fact directly replaced it with second class battleships of the "Centurion" class worth 2 thousand pounds

                        the British considered a mistake


                        and ordered a whole herd of "Edgars", which they were quite happy with at that time

                        when the technical possibilities appeared to book the board of cruisers of the first rank, without sacrificing critically speed, seaworthiness, autonomy - "Cressy" immediately appeared

                        to the question: "Why would you think that 2 Apollos have more combat value than 1 Blake?" therefore, we are not going back

                        You said, as I understood, that 6 Asamoids (780 TF each) and 2 Garibaldians (730 TF each) are better than 4 Cressies (750 TF each) and 3 Drakes (996 each) tf)

                        I tactfully asked you, as I understand it, to tell you exactly why you think that, for example, "Asama" has a tangible advantage in squadron combat over, for example, "Cressy"
                      103. 0
                        31 July 2019 11: 08
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        You said, as I understood

                        No, you said that the opposite is better. My answer was that Drake no benefits before the "Asama" except for the high price. And the "Cressy" at the same price - weaker. Despite the fact that in RYAV such traditional qualities of cruisers as seaworthiness, receded into the background. The main thing was - firepower, and here your version has absolutely nothing boast.
                        By the way, it's a bit incorrect to compare prices directly. The British built "Drakes" for themselves, on serious firms. The Japanese cruisers were built by Armstrong. It is not at all a fact that they cost them the same price as the Royal Nevi.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Do 2 Apollos have more combat value than 1 Blake? "

                        Only one. Two "Appolos" can be in two places at the same time, and "Blake" only in one. And for an armed steamer, the meeting with both will end in the same way. And if there is no difference, then why pay more?
                      104. 0
                        31 July 2019 13: 02
                        Two "Appolos" can be in two places at the same time, and "Blake" only in one.


                        but as soon as these places coincide, there will be 1 Apollo and 1 Blake ... until the next case when these places coincide
                        "so no volosts ..." ugh, that is, rank 2 bpkr will not save enough

                        And for an armed steamboat


                        and for, for example, "Dmitry Donskoy" meeting with "Apollo" and "Blake" - two very big differences

                        And "Cressy" is weaker at the same price.


                        then for the 3rd time I’ll ask:
                        "why exactly Do you think that, for example, "Asama" has a tangible advantage in squadron combat over, for example, "Cressy"?
                      105. 0
                        31 July 2019 13: 25
                        What is the advantage in battle with a cruiser with 4-203 mm and 14 -152 mm guns against, having the same displacement, but only 14 - 152 mm guns?
                        I do not even know ... chrysanthemum on the stem - probably looks beautiful :)))
                      106. +1
                        31 July 2019 16: 31
                        Ugh, abyss. Confused "Cressy" with "Kents".


                        Yes
                      107. 0
                        30 July 2019 22: 59
                        Threat. compared to efficiency, you can take the figures of Arthur Praetor

                        "Cressy 780 unarmed
                        Drake 1050 without weapons
                        Asama 880 with weapons
                        Kassuga 760 armed "

                        so many discrepancies

                        where weapons are estimated by me at about 100 thousand pounds
                        4 x 880 + 3 x1150 = 6970 for 7 shaves
                        6 x 880 + 2 x760 = 6800 for 8 Japanese

                        the essence does not change much
                      108. 0
                        31 July 2019 11: 21
                        Check out the English wiki. There, according to Brassey, the price of "Drakes" is given for lam pounds (though for some reason it is different in 1905 and in 1906).
                        Now count the barrels in the salvo.
                        Your version is 8-234 and 59-152; Japanese 1-254, 30-203, 54 - 152. (if something messed up, please forgive, head a little bit of that.)
                      109. 0
                        31 July 2019 13: 24
                        Check out the English wiki


                        I wrote a bunch of options. I gave Drake = 996 t.p. Arthur 1050 thousand pounds

                        The problem is this:
                        - how much ammunition includes the cost of artillery
                        Does artillery include the cost of tower installations
                        Does artillery include fire control tools
                        on the example of the estimate for the "Rurik" and the cost of the "Thunderbolt" the error can be huge - we have already sorted it out, it is good that the order of numbers for the Britons as a whole coincides across the entire line of ships for a quarter of a century, so it would be much more difficult to compare with amers

                        Now count the barrels in the salvo.


                        14 - 234 vs 1-254, 30-203
                        48 - 152 vs 54 - 152

                        Question 1. Does 2 - 203 give an advantage over 1 - 234, I think it is rather the other way around
                        shaving, they say, are sharply superior in rate of fire by 1 barrel, while each shaving shell is much more painful, not to mention a completely different level of armor penetration

                        Question 2. Do 54 guns have an advantage over 48, taking into account the open location of some of the guns by the Japanese and problems with the rate of supply of shells, I think that rather the opposite

                        Question 3. Does the narrow Asam GBP give an advantage due to its length or is it better for Cressy a shorter, but higher one, I think it depends on many factors

                        something like
                      110. 0
                        31 July 2019 13: 34
                        Ugh, abyss. Confused "Cressy" with "Kents".
                        Sori Everything is tied up with this garbage, but it has already begun to get confused :)))
                        Yes, I completely forgot. The British did not sell 234mm to anyone :))) as if not the only example of this kind - "Averoff".

                        And you forget another moment. Big ship he and the content - more.
                        Getting into it is also easier.
                      111. 0
                        31 July 2019 16: 30
                        Getting into it is also easier.


                        the buoyancy margin grows faster than the affected area to a degree of about 1,5
                        and in relation to hits in the waterline almost squared

                        234mm the British did not sell to anyone


                        well, I don’t know if the japas really asked how to know

                        Thanks for the interesting discussion. drinks hi
                      112. 0
                        15 July 2019 17: 38
                        GG You would not flaunt a "smart man" with your aplomb! The Italian school of those times is Brin !!! It was his concepts that later formed the basis of the drendnaught. As you pointed out above, the idea itself is important
                      113. +1
                        15 July 2019 18: 33
                        As indicated above, the idea itself is important

                        And what kind of side salvo does the "idea" have?
                      114. +1
                        16 July 2019 12: 00
                        Quote: Nehist
                        The Italian school of those times is Brin !!!

                        And battleships with 12 "guns and 100mm main armor belt ...
                      115. +1
                        16 July 2019 14: 48
                        What did not stop the Briton from translating this idea into a battlecruiser. You apparently also missed the entire discussion thread.
                      116. 0
                        16 July 2019 16: 46
                        No, I didn’t miss it) But still the battlecruiser, even according to Fisher’s plan, was not intended for squadron combat. And here we see the squadron battleship with high speed, powerful weapons and almost no armor protection. Agree, talking about the genius of the Italian school with such actions is not entirely correct)
                        Although yes, all the ships of Italy are completely unique and beautiful in their own way!
                      117. +1
                        16 July 2019 22: 49
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        And here we see the squadron battleship with high speed, powerful weapons and almost no armor protection.

                        It should be noted that the armor belt of Mikasa or Sikishima confidently penetrated Russian armor-piercing 12 "shells at almost maximum distance for that time. Hence the question." Why pay more? "(C) :)
                      118. 0
                        17 July 2019 08: 37
                        Well, at least because he still did not break through with 6 "guns, but they can already penetrate 100mm armor)
                        And then, to be honest, I don’t remember that we would have pierced the main armor belt. 178 mm, yes, even 10 "were pierced, but no one pierced the thicker armor in that war, EMNIP
                      119. +1
                        17 July 2019 22: 51
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        178 mm, yes, even 10 "were pierced, but no one pierced the thicker armor in that war, EMNIP

                        These same 178 mm of Mikasa’s main armor belt, made of Krupp steel, are not inferior to 229 mm of the Harvey steel of other Japanese armadillos. So all the Japanese EDB calmly made their way to 43-45 kbl.

                        By the way, Russian tests of the armor of Sevastopol after the war were confirmed. The 229 mm belt was stitched 12 "with a high probability at long distances.
                      120. +3
                        15 July 2019 14: 08
                        "cruisers for the fleet, which should be able to take part in the battles of the fleet as a complement to the battleships ......."


                        the idea itself is important.


                        here I completely agree, the success of shipbuilding by the end of the century allowed us to think about creating just such a ship
                      121. +4
                        15 July 2019 12: 19
                        I don't know what you like about Drake. The size and price of a battleship, and the firepower and armor of an asamoid, which Coronel demonstrated.
                        In fact, a very narrowly specialized ship. Only limes could afford to build such freaks.
                      122. +2
                        15 July 2019 12: 29
                        Only limes could afford to build such freaks.

                        here is the mentioned White and built ....

                        In principle, the colleague does not understand that of course I would like everything, and a lot, but in the conditions of always a limited budget, you need to calculate maximum efficiency for the same money.
                        Well, since the goal of the Navy is to seize supremacy at sea, it means that a linear squadron is needed.

                        Cruisers, on the other hand, are built as raiders when they do not even want to seize dominance --- for action on communications. (the method is obviously vicious and losing.)

                        So the Japanese Amamoids and Garibaldians are not from a great mind. And only Nicholas (due to Russophobia in some places turning into pathology) can praise this. Ships are a waste of money.
                      123. 0
                        15 July 2019 16: 26
                        But the cruisers also have the function of counter-raiders, this is what the British needed: "Powerful" against "Rurik" and so on. Japanese too, by the way. And it’s somehow dumb to chase “Russia” on “Fuji”, and even on “Izumo” it is more convenient than on “Asahi”
                      124. +1
                        16 July 2019 09: 50
                        But the cruisers also have the function of counter-raiders, this is what the British needed: "Powerful" against "Rurik" and so on. Japanese too, by the way. And it’s somehow dumb to chase “Russia” on “Fuji”, and even on “Izumo” it is more convenient than on “Asahi”

                        Practice, which, as you know, is the only criterion of truth, showed that nothing-and-cruisers-or-armadillos could not do Russian cruisers and did not have the slightest influence on Russian cruising operations.

                        Battle in the Korea Strait? So this is not a cruising operation, but a coordinated attempt to break through the 1st TOE in Vladik. And even that - the cruisers are gone. Gone.
                        And they would have gone even better --- tearing Jessen south (leading Kamimura behind him)
                        That is, what conclusion? Useless this garbage against Russian cruisers.

                        It was not Kamimura who stopped the Russian cruising operations, but ... (a) Jessen (who disabled more cruisers than the Japanese!) And (b) the British - demanding to stop.

                        Moreover, the uselessness of the Asamoids against Russian cruisers was a priori obvious: their seaworthiness is filthy --- that is, in the ocean this garbage could neither give full speed nor use weapons normally.
                      125. 0
                        16 July 2019 09: 59
                        I agree, but I wrote above that the very idea of ​​creating asamoids was beautiful and necessary, but its normal implementation required a displacement of at least 12 thousand tons, I wondered: a better armored and better armed version of what Cressi would be (if make asamoid based on it) pulls at 13 thousand tons, and then only by reducing seaworthiness and sailing range
                      126. The comment was deleted.
                      127. +2
                        16 July 2019 05: 37
                        Here again, it is worth returning to the American postulate about good / bad ships. The Japanese had some unsuccessful ships. But they used them correctly. In those conditions. The result is received.
                        And here again, the mental qualities of admirals immediately come to mind.
                      128. -1
                        16 July 2019 10: 19
                        Here again, it is worth returning to the American postulate about good / bad ships. The Japanese had some unsuccessful ships. But they used them correctly. In those conditions. The result is received.
                        And here again, the mental qualities of admirals immediately come to mind.

                        "used correctly", yeah ...
                        FIG THERE! This is because against the Russians, and nothing more.
                        Just their fleet was much stronger. And if the fleets were at least commensurate --- and ... would cry, howl from the worthless Tsushim.

                        When you are stronger, then Tsushima will find a deal. And where to put it in if you are weaker --- and its access to the sea is equivalent to her death?

                        That's all the "correct use", the whole secret
                      129. 0
                        15 July 2019 15: 58
                        [quote] [/ quote] I love his driving performance, wang: He would catch up with the Bogatyr or Novik. In a turbulent sea and at a long distance for sure, it's cool: a brkr from which not a single armored deck will escape
                      130. 0
                        15 July 2019 07: 49
                        They never confirmed the data indicated in the passport - and therefore the Japanese put them in the 1st combat detachment (they did not give the declared speed).


                        Yes sir
                      131. 0
                        15 July 2019 12: 10
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Yes sir

                        Not a fact.
                      132. The comment was deleted.
                  4. +5
                    14 July 2019 22: 38
                    ... but they somehow forgot about a large armored cruiser capable of driving "Asamoids" or did not find it necessary.

                    The second uv. colleague. They thought (as you know) that if such a cruiser at a price equal to an armadillo, it’s better to have more armadillos. Those. a strong squadron of armadillos, accompanied by cruisers, will cope better with everything - possession of the sea, interruption of VR. communications (in a limited area of ​​the Yellow Sea), port blocking ... than mixed (type 6 + 6)
                    And this is true, but under one condition, if your escadre is stronger, which is not difficult with the planned ratio of 10 EBR to 6 Japanese + 6 armored cruisers. However (as always)) did not have time ... And in such conditions a strong armor. the cruiser already surpasses the EBR in value, since it can still act in conditions of enemy superiority.
                    it would be better, of course, just "Bayans" were instead of all these ...

                    Undoubtedly)) We saw somewhere somewhere :)))))
                  5. 0
                    15 July 2019 12: 56
                    Of course you didn’t write to me, but let me insert my 5 cents.
                    Alas, our industry (in my opinion) worked disgustingly and, unfortunately, there was not enough money for what was needed. No, not like that. Until a certain point, there was no understanding of what we needed and what we wanted. As soon as yesterday thinking about the REE, I came to the sad conclusion (once again) that there was no bright head able to clearly describe that we urgently need this and that for the upcoming conflict and do it then and then. And so ... Well, here’s 1TOE, on paper - a formidable force, 7EDBs against 6 and Japan, and as a result, all the ships of different types and classes, and Relights were not intended for squadron combat, and Poltava was already very outdated. Such a huge number of shortcomings that were made in that war, I personally do not remember anywhere else. Well, besides Britain in 41, when they raked what was laid out in the Pacific Ocean from those whom they themselves so diligently raised.
              3. 0
                14 July 2019 19: 26
                To fight on communications - this is Stormbreaker


                I agree, but only if there is no way to write down my favorite "Drake" or something like that)

                "watchdog"


                "Eclipses" - the optimal combination of cost / efficiency for overseas stations, well, if there are not many old "Edgars", for example, IMHO

                no country in the world at that moment decided the problems of the optimal small cruiser for squadron service
    3. +2
      16 July 2019 05: 23
      Eehh ... Previously, they wrote that the 6000-ton cruiser was built in vain, now Noviks / pebbles are in vain. There are also battleships "Peresvet", cruisers "Russia" and "Thunderbolt".
      "There are no bad ships, there are ships used for other purposes" (c).
      And this is to our admirals.
      1. +1
        16 July 2019 15: 01
        If Russia paired with Rurik can still be somehow justified, then the construction of the Thunderbolt without a waste of resources
        1. 0
          16 July 2019 19: 27
          This is true. But somehow in that war there were many useless ships.
        2. 0
          17 July 2019 08: 40
          Quote: Nehist
          If Russia paired with Rurik can still be somehow justified, then the construction of the Thunderbolt without a waste of resources

          But it’s beautiful) But in the main, I agree with you. It would be even better if another Relight was built. There was at least some benefit from them.
  3. +5
    14 July 2019 18: 20
    Did the Russian cruisers of 2 rank do any harm to the Japanese ships?

    Quite possibly a deeply respected colleague, given the very good, praised by the British, training of gunners on the Pearl.
    Before us is the translation of two excerpts from the reports of the English naval attache, the most interesting in this case is the more detailed report of Captain T. Jackson, who observed the progress of the battle from the board of the cruiser "Azuma". The report of the Captain Pakenham captain (Asahi battleship) is also interesting, the passage from which comes first (in square brackets I give clarifications and additions to the original text).

    1) Around 19: 00 [hereafter, Japanese] Idzumo, Azuma, and Tokiwa noticed from the left beam at a distance of 7 000 yards "Pearls" and two or three fighters were far from it. Fearing that after dark the Russian cruiser would direct its fighters at them, the Japanese opened slow fire on it. The Russian cruiser responded with unusually accurate fire from a single gun, but it seemed that his shooting was not rewarded. Shortly after sunset, thick smoke was seen on board and the Japanese ceased fire.

    2) Kamimura, at 19:05, turned his squad four rumba in an "all of a sudden" maneuver, which resulted in a number of Japanese fighters being about two miles behind. Eight of them were distinguishable, and since the latter were kept close to the ships of the Fourth Combat Unit, they were probably assigned to the Fourth and Fifth Fighter Squads [Asagiri, Murasame, Shirakumo, Asashio, and Shiranui "," Murakumo "," Yūgiri "," Kagerō "respectively]. At 19:12, the cruisers of the Second Combat Detachment, rebuilding into a wake column, turned four rumba to the right. The horizon to the west and northwest began to clear at this time, but still there was still too much fog. The Russian ships, clearly in disarray, were clearly visible. At 19:15 the detachment's course was changed to NNW, and Captain Murakami [the commander of the cruiser Azuma], seeing the Pearl at a distance of about 8 yards [and evaluating its maneuvers] with two fighters behind, ordered to open slow fire in order to prevent the cruiser, after dark, direct its fighters to the Japanese ships. Idzumo and Tokiwa coordinated their fire on the Russian cruiser, while Zhemchug limited their attention to the cruiser Azuma. Taking into account the firing range and the fact that its main caliber was limited to 000 ", the Zhemchug shot well, giving small flights, small undershoots, some of the shells fell not far astern [of the cruiser" Azuma "]. Each Russian shell issued in flight a tiresome howl that quickly became annoying, and they [the projectiles] seemed to fall so steeply that it seemed as if the angle of their fall should be at least 4,7 degrees. One could see how each of them, diving, leaves when moving in there is a silvery trail thicker than the water, and the uneven surface of the waves, distorting the picture, gave the impression that a shell was wriggling in the water. ”Later, smoke was observed on the Pearl, and the fire [from the enemy] stopped.
    The second combat detachment took place behind the First combat detachment, and Admiral Togo, intending to mislead the Russian fighters, who could have expected darkness to start an attack on the Japanese, headed for E. N. E. for three quarters of an hour, and then turned from N. to E., heading to the rendezvous point, located north of Matsushima.
    1. +2
      14 July 2019 19: 06
      As always, plus for the facts and, as always, a question on the conclusions):

      The Russian cruiser responded with unusually accurate fire from a single gun, but it seemed that his shooting was not rewarded.


      "Pearl" shot well, giving small overflights, short misses, part of the shells fell not far behind the stern


      shot just fine - never hit

      Like firefighters: "arrived on time, extinguished correctly, everything burned out"
      1. +2
        14 July 2019 19: 59
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        As always, plus for the facts
        This is not for me, this is for the British.
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        as always a question on conclusions.
        Like firefighters: "arrived on time, extinguished correctly, everything burned out"

        Questions all to the same two English attache in the rank Captain (equivalent to first rank captain).
        Recall the shooting conditions:
        a) firing range - 29-33 cable;
        b) fog;
        c) time - a little later 19:05. For reference, the sunset there 27 May - 18:49.

        And now the original of the reports, the assessment of the shooting of the cruiser "Pearl" in Russian - in the previous commentary, I am posting the original in English. Disagreeing with the assessment, you are not arguing with me, but with two competent officers who officially stated the following:
        If you wish, you can compare the rating of the "Pearl" shooting with the skeptical ratings of the cruiser "Varyag" made by the same the British and the Americans to boot. At the same time, do not lose sight of the fact that the Varyag was shooting not after sunset, not in the fog and on more close range.
        I am writing this for those who can follow the course of our sluggish discussion with you about the level of artillery training at the First and Second Pacific Squadron, since your bias and cynicism do not cease to amaze, and if the facts contradict your beliefs, then all the worse for the facts.
        1. 0
          14 July 2019 21: 01
          and if the facts contradict your beliefs, then all the worse for the facts.


          I, of course, the embodiment of all the bad, but how my beliefs cancel the fact that

          did not seem to be rewarded with any hits
    2. +2
      14 July 2019 22: 04
      Greetings, dear Comrade!
      Thanks for the reports, extremely interesting!
      1. +1
        14 July 2019 22: 33
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Greetings, dear Comrade!
        Thanks for the reports, extremely interesting!

        Not at all, dear Andrei. Thank you for the topic. And you can talk, and over Kolya Passersby laugh heartily.
        In general, Trubridge's "Pearl" is often found in the text of the report, he personally observed it, but since the description of the actions of this cruiser was not the purpose of the report, there is not very much concrete there. However, the context is striking. "Pearl", in the words of an Englishman (in contrast to "Emerald"), behaved quite actively, at least not a word about "Emerald" in any of the reports of the two Englishmen. The only mention is when the cruiser "made legs", it even talks about the speed of the Japanese.
        And here "Pearl" is constantly mentioned in connection with certain events.
        One senses that Trubridge writes about Pearl with respect. The cruiser was active and sensible.
    3. +1
      14 July 2019 23: 00
      Each Russian shell emitted a tiring howl in flight, which quickly became annoying ..

      Hmm, it’s strange, at such a distance the velocity of the projectile and finally should remain supersonic ...
      1. +1
        15 July 2019 01: 26
        Hmm, it’s strange, at such a distance the velocity of the projectile and finally should remain supersonic ...

        Yes, and the angles of incidence are 15. Well, let it be 25. But not 60.
    4. 0
      16 July 2019 22: 55
      Quote: Comrade
      taking into account the very good, praised by the British, training of gunners on the "Pearl".

      It’s even interesting when they, the Pearl gunners, had time to prepare so well. :) Pearl, during the entire trip (9 months) shot 5 times. Emerald - 3 times. And this is taking into account the teams of recruits. I hope you don’t believe in virtual classrooms aboard "pebbles" in those days? laughing
      1. +2
        17 July 2019 01: 38
        Quote: Saxahorse
        I hope you don’t believe in virtual classrooms on board "pebbles" in those days?

        Here are two English officers, in the rank of captain, officially praised the shooting of the Russian cruiser. And you, instead of rejoicing from the bottom of our hearts for our guys, who had a difficult day behind, but after sunset still finding the strength to adequately respond to a formidable enemy, portray a curved and incredulous grin on your face.
        But if "Zhemchug" did not open return fire, but scrambled from the Japanese, which could have done like two fingers on the asphalt, and in which it would have been difficult to reproach him, you would have burst out laughing and would have launched into lengthy discussions about the degeneration of the Russian officers ...
        You know, according to my observations, in the West, there are several orders of magnitude less Russophobes in the West than in Russia.
        1. 0
          17 July 2019 22: 44
          Quote: Comrade
          You know, according to my observations, in the West, there are several orders of magnitude less Russophobes in the West than in Russia.

          Something tells me that there are several orders of magnitude dreamers there than in Russia. Even Levitsky himself does not confirm the good shooting of Pearls. He himself says that little was done in combat training. And he shot so that the crew would take in battle, relieve tension. But Levitsky remembers the training in loading coal. Hello to Christmas .. :(
  4. +3
    14 July 2019 20: 26
    To summarize, most of the time, two cruisers maneuvered inside
    building their battleships and transports, dodging collisions with them and
    stopping the battleships from firing.
    More chaos than good.
    It would be better if they were allowed independent actions outside the squadron, around it.
    Could drown one or two Japanese destroyers.
    1. +1
      14 July 2019 22: 04
      Quote: voyaka uh
      To summarize, most of the time, two cruisers maneuvered inside
      building their battleships and transports, dodging collisions with them and
      stopping the battleships from firing.

      This makes no sense...
      1. +1
        14 July 2019 23: 52
        Why nonsense, a person has an opinion. request

        Good night, Andrey, with gratitude for the most interesting story about "time to collect stones". I will wait for the continuation of the "time to scatter them". About the great drape from the battlefield. hi
    2. 0
      15 July 2019 00: 36
      Quote: voyaka uh
      It would be better if they were allowed independent actions outside the squadron, around it.

      In fact, the Emerald reported that he continued to rehearse signals. There were no signals from Suvorov (from Rozhdestvensky) after the start of the battle, but he repeated the signals of Borodino and Nikolai. In any case, this was stated in the statement.
      1. +1
        15 July 2019 09: 45
        Is it enough for a battle cruiser to rehearse signals to justify uselessness in battle?
        The battle quickly turned into a rout. And the cruiser commander could understand that there is still a chance to inflict some damage on the enemy. And do not repeat the echo of useless orders from the already deceased flagship.
        They could not fight the Japanese battleships, but they could decisively attack the destroyers. And they would soak a dry account of Tsushima.
        1. +1
          16 July 2019 05: 45
          So the military must obey the order. Commanders and performed. This is where the genius of Rozhdestvensky comes to light. He already has few cruisers. So by his order he immediately made minus 2. The Japanese did not even have to do anything. Two cruisers loitered the whole battle back and forth.
          1. +1
            16 July 2019 10: 24
            So the military must obey the order. Commanders and performed. This is where the genius of Rozhdestvensky comes to light. He already has few cruisers. So by his order he immediately made minus 2. The Japanese did not even have to do anything. Two cruisers loitered the whole battle back and forth.


            Tell us where the Christmas pebbles were supposed to put during the BREAK in LINEAR BATTLE? WHERE?

            There is not enough evil for such "theorists". Rozhestvensky did everything absolutely right. Right. Do you understand? In full accordance with the ideas of THAT time, and with common sense.

            What pebbles in battle? And how long would they fight?
            Maybe they should also be put in line? And what - a formidable force --- the end would immediately Toge
            1. +1
              16 July 2019 19: 36
              You can't line up, so let them hang around. They are transmitting signals that were not there and the order for the battle itself did not imply - you sheep are going after the leader to Vladivostok. Everyone was busy with such nonsense advice and other trifles, although the destroyers could be adapted. The same "Almaz". But with 3 (!!!) 75 mm (!!!) cannons he heroically defended the transport. And "pebbles" with 8 120 mm are only suitable for signals to rehearse. Do not shield the CRP.
  5. +3
    14 July 2019 20: 28
    It all started with Izumi, who made an attempt to approach the vehicles and shoot at them from the side of Vladimir Monomakh, when the latter joined the battle.

    It should be noted that the very presence of transports under Tsushima became another gross mistake of the wing of Admiral Rozhestvensky. Who else would have thought of dragging a convoy into a general battle? Regardless of the results of the battle, it was enough for the linear forces of the enemy, during maneuvering, to be between the Russian battleships and vehicles and the latter would inevitably die. However, almost all of them were shot as a result.
    1. +1
      16 July 2019 05: 48
      This expresses the seal of genius. Like, without transports it is impossible. And thanks to transport, Rozhestvensky turned the squadron into an uncontrolled convoy. And he lost both the squadron and the transport.
  6. +3
    14 July 2019 21: 14
    again the "great classifier" came ... am
    1. +2
      14 July 2019 22: 47
      you have to be more tolerant of people. And even, I would say, more tolerant.
      1. +3
        15 July 2019 00: 25
        Quote: AK64
        you have to be more tolerant of people.

        We endured it in AI for years, tried to reason, and then began to burn the troll with hot iron. The tired owner of the site, after Kolya began to threaten to organize an attack on the site, suggested that all moderators, in case this character appears with his delirium, immediately ban him.
        Here, on Voennoe Obozreniye, in my memory, he was banned up to ten times, and maybe even more.
        The main problems are his militant rudeness, hypertrophied inadequacy and an aggressive transition to personality in the case when he is pressed against the wall.
        1. +3
          15 July 2019 00: 32
          Quote: Comrade
          and maybe more.

          As I said in this thread, the list of Nikolai’s nicknames kept on my laptop has an 42 (already) item. Of these, only 5-6 from the site of the AI, all the rest of the nicknames - from topvara. So, perhaps, more wassat
          1. +2
            15 July 2019 00: 44
            Quote: arturpraetor
            the list of nicknames of Nicholas, which is maintained on my laptop, has 42 (already) items.

            Keep in the piggy bank, Artyom :-)
            helblitter - his nickname on Tsushima, it was Aley who identified him there.
            Quote: arturpraetor
            Of these, only 5-6 from the AI ​​site

            Yes there were many times more.
            I remember, somehow Byakin took up it. Ban Kolya, and he immediately registered under the same nickname, but with a different serial number, and well, to offend Byakin. He calmly bans Nikolash, and so five or six times during the day.
            We only wiped away the tears that came out of laughter :-)
            1. +2
              15 July 2019 00: 47
              Thank you. I wonder when the list will reach laughing
          2. +3
            15 July 2019 11: 55
            Quote: arturpraetor
            only 5-6 from the AI ​​site

            Actually more. Just at some point, Byakin and I began to ban him without publicity, on the fact of identification.
            1. +1
              15 July 2019 12: 04
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              Actually more.

              I, as it were, came to AH after the main riot of Nicholas, so these 5-6 nicknames are from among the preserved archival discussions. Of course, there were obviously more of them, but who will find them now? request
        2. +4
          15 July 2019 01: 20
          And yet I intercede, I allow myself, to mean:
          I have known him for 25 years. Well, not all 25 years continuously - but for the first time "we met somewhere in 96. I know perfectly well that he is a Russophobe, and with a phobia that turns into pathology. But about rudeness ... I can’t remember such examples. Maybe all the same, at first, too hot young people began to massively be rude to Nikolai - and he in response? Modern Russian young people (especially among their patriotic part of them) have a rather large backlash in the conversation. And only when they, by misunderstanding , they begin to imagine themselves as patriots ...

          It’s hard for me to imagine Nicholas being rude — though, of course, people change, and usually for the worse: from time to time only cognac is better, and even that is only the first 20 years

          In general, he is dear to me as a memory of youth and stupidity.
          1. +3
            15 July 2019 09: 08
            it would be logical, since they are taking a position, instead create a section: alternative opinions - and there write what you want)

            I’m stealing a straw for myself, but how am I also banned for not considering the ZPR a great naval commander? I’m joking
            1. +3
              15 July 2019 11: 12
              You will not be banned: it is your "views" on VO that are very popular.

              It is here, in the little old man's corner, you need to "know the materiel" and other nonsense. And if you come out with such and such "views" on any "political" topic, they will throw you a bunch of likeos at once. Wake up in carriages, sir.
          2. +4
            15 July 2019 12: 00
            Quote: AK64
            But what about rudeness

            It was the case. Moreover, for stupid. He came up with nicknames, clung to nicknames. In short, how shkolota behaved.
            Quote: AK64
            Maybe, all the same, at first too hot young people began to be rude

            Unfortunately no. Himself, sir. Unless, of course, it is rudeness to ask you to document your "brilliant" discoveries.
            1. +1
              15 July 2019 12: 38
              There was a case.

              Apparently, age: I understand that he is well over 60. Well, personal problems must be thought: he is an American, and he hoped for the best --- but it turned out, go, "as always."

              In general, I myself am eurotolerast, and therefore inclined to treat human weaknesses condescendingly. (Of course, until they start to sit on my head from weakness --- like a break)
          3. +1
            15 July 2019 20: 59
            Correctly you, a colleague of AK64, stand up for "your" Nikolai. The name of the person you are writing about is Chernovil.
            I realized this when you mentioned the ABACUS website.
            Nikolai Chernovil is a really polite and calm person with a critical mindset and extensive erudition. Many people owe him, and his authority in the eyes of knowledgeable people is great.
            "Our" Kolya is much younger, perhaps twice or so, seven years ago, he lived in Moscow.
            1. 0
              16 July 2019 10: 16
              If this is someone I knew (not sure), then he has an academic background in military history. It seems to specialize in the American navy. And he really fought on "missions" in the American army in artillery. And, yes, he lived in Moscow for several years.
              And - yes - he loved to tease.
            2. +1
              16 July 2019 10: 30
              Seriously? Not the one ?????

              Hmm .... The lexicon is the same, even in details (for example, "buckets with nuts"). Russophobia is the same. American ultra-patriotism is the same ... Well, where does a Muscovite get such "groveling before America"? (Precisely by America)

              It seems to me that this is the same person. Just probably changing the mask.

              But if you are right and this is different - then I agree with you - the troll then.
    2. 0
      15 July 2019 00: 03
      Good night, Ivan! hi

      Do you remember how in "Prisoner of the Caucasus" Shurik proposed to figure out for three a couple of psychos in a madhouse?
      He was then answered: "It is a sin to laugh at sick people", (C). wassat
      1. +2
        15 July 2019 01: 23
        Did you also know Shura?
        (For those who do not understand: this is one of the first nicknames of Nicholas, 25 years ago)
        1. 0
          15 July 2019 13: 23
          Where, I graze here relatively recently, it's just that analogues with a madhouse are asking themselves. Sometimes it seems to me that this is our unforgettable and ever-living Carbine - the same shizni, only on a small subject.
          1. +1
            15 July 2019 13: 31
            Quote: Sea Cat
            Sometimes it seems to me that this is our unforgettable and ever-living Carbine.

            They are. For the Passer-by, you say Nikolay, a special love was noticed on several topics, just RIF is one of the most well-loved ones, here it is most often celebrated. EMNIP, there was also about the Soviet army in the Second World War (where can we go without it?), Artillery (where he earned the nickname "Kolya 65mm"), and a little bit about the economy, although I can be confused - all this happened before my direct confrontation with this, ahem, colleague.
            1. +1
              15 July 2019 13: 37
              There was another, with the nickname Major Whirlwind, which at first was mistaken for Carbine. But then they somehow appeared together on one article. In short, Maёr cheated on everyone and was quickly banned. So far has not appeared. He has a phase shift on a two-row magazine and a cartridge with a reduced flange.
              1. +2
                15 July 2019 13: 41
                Quote: Sea Cat
                There was another one, with the nickname Major Whirlwind, which at first was mistaken for Carbine. But then they somehow spoke together on the same article.

                Registering bots and talking to yourself, creating the appearance of support is another magic feature of this character, noticed a long time ago on the website of alt-history laughing So correctly accepted Yes By the way, I forgot to add this nickname last time - so now it’s already 44 on the list ...
                1. +1
                  15 July 2019 13: 52
                  But for sure! There was always one character present, who constantly supported the "mayera". Then he disappeared right after the "Mayor". Here, just now I remembered. laughing
                  1. +2
                    15 July 2019 13: 57
                    In general, now the clinical picture is clear and you laughing It is, of course, not quite right to laugh in such cases, because it smacks of real mental problems in a person ... But it’s hard not to laugh in such cases.
                    1. +1
                      15 July 2019 14: 06
                      I agree with you, Artyom. hi That's why I remembered the madhouse in the "Caucasian Captive", it seems to be "sinful to laugh at sick people", but on the other hand, it is difficult to resist. laughing
                  2. +3
                    17 July 2019 05: 05
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    There was always one character present, who constantly supported the "maera".

                    Oooh We have a similar picture on AI. One or two new people appear on the site, they behave calmly and adequately, little by little the reputation begins to appear.
                    Then Kolya Passerby enters the arena, carries nonsense, up to ten people enter into polemics, and then the two immediately come running and begin not to argue with us, no, but to have a conversation with Kolya, like, oh, how good and right You speak.
                    Moreover, the "assistants" worked subtly. They didn’t just praise him - one usually criticized him lightly, but generally fiercely, furiously approved. And the second, Kolya's thoughts, began to develop and improve, as if showing everyone how valuable these ideas are.
                    And then it turned out that these types are not really real people, it was Kolya who had a simultaneous conversation with us and among themselves on behalf of three persons. He asked himself questions and immediately answered them. In a word, imitated the crowd.
                    And this, colleague, is not an isolated case, it happened quite often.
                    Here on VO they do not chick with him, so he simply does not have time to unfold his big top and introduce one or two "assistants" into the topic.
                    1. +1
                      17 July 2019 08: 44
                      Quote: Comrade
                      He asked himself questions and immediately answered them.

                      It's nice to talk with a good person)))))
          2. +1
            15 July 2019 13: 58
            Where, I graze here relatively recently,

            Shura was a long time ago, which is why I was surprised. This is 25 years ago, and Nikolay then kept the ABACUS website

            Sometimes it seems to me that this is our unforgettable and ever-living Carbine - the same shizni, only on a small subject.

            They are. But you are in vain about "shizni": if you filter out Russophobia and American ultra-patriotism, then Nikolai's writing makes sense.
            1. +1
              15 July 2019 20: 11
              I will not argue for the fleet, I have purely amateur information. But about the shooting - definitely rushing frank shizuhi. We have a certified doctor here, so he made an accurate diagnosis and there is no need to doubt him. request
  7. +7
    14 July 2019 21: 17
    Gentlemen, Nikolai visited us again (aka Passer-by) laughing Andrew, here you know how to lure this person wassat
  8. +2
    15 July 2019 00: 20
    Typo: in one place Instead of O.A. Enquist is indicated by O.A. [Essen].
    1. +1
      15 July 2019 14: 28
      Quote: Ognjen26
      Typo: in one place Instead of O.A. Enquist is indicated by O.A. [Essen].

      Freudian slip:)))))
  9. +1
    15 July 2019 18: 38
    Dear Andre!
    You constantly write about Rozhdestvensky’s plan for battle. Is there any evidence: testimony to the investigation, letters, at least something that would indicate that the plan was? Or is it all diduction?
    It seems to me that coming up with a plan for ZPR 100 years later is somehow strange.
    1. +1
      15 July 2019 22: 17
      Quote: mmaxx
      You constantly write about Rozhdestvensky’s plan for battle. Is there any evidence: testimony to the investigation, letters, at least something that would indicate that the plan was?

      As far as I understand, Andrei is just trying to prove that the absence of a system as well as the absence of plans for battle are Rozhdestvensky's ingenious contribution to naval art. And this tells Andrey, that same diduction, there were no other documents or facts. laughing
    2. +1
      16 July 2019 10: 35
      You constantly write about Rozhdestvensky’s plan for battle. Is there any evidence: testimony to the investigation, letters, at least something that would indicate that the plan was? Or is it all diduction?


      And how do you imagine the battle plan? In the form of a piece of paper with arrows?

      Rozhdestvensky’s plan was and was obvious: they will break into Vladik. And to mean:
      (1) if possible, avoid combat
      (2) in the event of a battle, rely on superiority in artillery.
      (3) by all means to break into Vladik

      Actually, he could not plan anything but.
      Well, plus this is his (quite witty, I must say) debut decision
      1. 0
        16 July 2019 19: 24
        Something like that. And then somehow everywhere one sounds. The commanders knew only one thing: the sovereign ordered to Vladivostok who the first herd was leading.
        In general, maybe I'm ruined by owls. army, but the very last sergeant always commanded his name. References to other commanders (such as a sovereign) are not considered. With this ZPR I signed for the fact that I had nothing to do with it, we went to Vladik, as we were told, that's all.
        1. 0
          16 July 2019 20: 57
          at that time, "The sovereign commanded" only meant "the order is not discussed at all"
          Vitgeft referred to the Tsar's will in the same way. And he said exactly the same (in response to the question-requirements "what is the plan?" ----- "as I lead, so you will go")
          In the absence of other admirals in the squadron, nothing but "follow the matelot" could be.
          1. 0
            17 July 2019 04: 14
            Why is everyone so sure that there was no other way? Such an innovation was applied only by ZPR. The battle programed immediately. And no one has ever dealt with such nonsense either before or after.
            In any organization, the deputies of the chief are the same chiefs, but in a slightly narrower section. Do not trust them with leadership - this is a sign of inability to lead in general. Even people like Napoleon broke down on this. And ZPR is far from Napoleon.
            1. +1
              17 July 2019 09: 03
              Why is everyone so sure that there was no other way?

              what "no way"? Be clearer.

              Such an innovation was applied only by ZPR.

              What is the "innovation"?
              Learn to finally express yourself clearly

              The battle programed immediately.

              Why is it "right away" if they fought for half a day?

              And no one has ever dealt with such nonsense either before or after.

              What "nonsense"? Am I supposed to guess your "thoughts"?
              This is how you learn to write - so come

              In any organization, the deputies of the chief are the same chiefs, but in a slightly narrower section. Do not trust them with leadership - this is a sign of inability to lead in general. Even people like Napoleon broke down on this. And ZPR is far from Napoleon.

              Rozhestvensky did not have "deputies". Not given out from the warehouse.
              There was one Felkersam — and he died.
              Admirals did not break into battle to go --- they preferred to lead from under the Spitz. They did not give Rozhdestvensky (taking away all battle-worthy ships) two or three more admirals.
              And for good, you would need two admirals per unit + the commander himself.

              And in the absence of those to whom to "trust" - what claims can be that "did not trust"?

              You would, if you were smart, would ask better the question why there were so few admirals on Rozhdestvensky’s squadron. 70 admirals were in Russia --- but how to go into battle, so only two were found --- Makarov and Rozhdestvensky
              1. +1
                17 July 2019 11: 16
                1. Innovation is to follow the lead. This is nonsense. This has never happened anywhere. And the result is known. And the squadron fought for half a day precisely because the Japanese nailed Rozhdestvensky quickly. And then with such talents it would all end even earlier. Without it, at least sometimes meaningfulness existed in the operations of the squadron.
                2. I’m not writing an article from scratch. The whole chain of dialogue can be traced perfectly. And the commander is not a surname and a rank. This is a post. And there is always someone to fulfill a position. As they say - a holy place, it does not happen empty. There are no best of the best, you take the best of the worst. No structure can exist without a chapter. And if the business is organized in such a way that without one boss everything collapses, then the boss and the poor organizer. And here the squadron from almost all the remaining combat-ready Russian fleets does not have the commander of deputies .... I can say what he does not have.
                And the fact that Rozhestvensky did not trust anyone and considered everyone, let’s say this: much lower than himself in terms of intellectual capabilities, can be traced throughout.
                3. And I ask my quick wits not to affect. I do not like my opinion - I ask you to argue with him. My or someone else's quick wits don't concern anyone. If necessary, I will answer in such a way that it does not seem enough. And the defenders of organizational talent ZPR I do not understand vapsche.
                Andrei, at least he won how much material he dug up and presented on a platter. He can express his opinion at least for controversy. What are you doing here? The idea that deputies ZPR did not give out move ???? Who was supposed to give out? From which warehouse? A squadron was being formed in the Baltic and everyone was assigned to it (issued). Can you imagine the substitution order? So it is completely automatic. It only takes care.
                1. 0
                  17 July 2019 14: 34
                  1. Innovation is to follow the lead. This is nonsense. This has never happened anywhere.

                  "Innovation"? Never and nowhere? This is a classic linear tactic - the "goose step of battleships". The whole history of naval wars is just that.

                  And the result is known.

                  What is "famous"? Is it "known" that in a linear battle there is one winner and one loser? Yes - "known"

                  And the squadron fought for half a day precisely because the Japanese nailed Rozhdestvensky quickly. And then with such talents it would all end even earlier. Without it, at least sometimes meaningfulness existed in the operations of the squadron.

                  I see no reason to somehow comment on stupidity and rudeness.
                  It could, of course, be noted that "everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side"

                  2. I’m not writing an article from scratch. The whole chain of dialogue can be traced perfectly.

                  If it was "traceable", then no one would quote the post to which he answers.
                  And guess your thoughts .... somehow there is no desire

                  And the commander is not a surname and a rank. This is a post. And there is always someone to fulfill a position. As they say - a holy place, it does not happen empty. There are no best of the best, you take the best of the worst. No structure can exist without a chapter. And if the business is organized in such a way that without one boss everything collapses, then the boss and the poor organizer. And here the squadron from almost all the remaining combat-ready Russian fleets does not have the commander of deputies .... I can say what he does not have.

                  This makes no sense...
                  Gentlemen, did I understand him correctly that he thinks that in the army, or in the navy, you can "turn wherever I want!" And "we do not need impostors - I will be the commander"

                  Some kind of kindergarten, the word is honest

                  And the fact that Rozhestvensky did not trust anyone and considered everyone, let’s say this: much lower than himself in terms of intellectual capabilities, can be traced throughout.

                  Why didn’t you trust? He trusted someone. For example, he trusted Felkersam - but only Felkersam died, could not stand the stress and hardships.
                  It’s just like you think that that trip was like a boat cruise

                  3. And I ask my quick wits not to affect. I do not like my opinion - I ask you to argue with him.

                  Yes, you do not have any "opinion" - there is a set of nonsense laid down to you since childhood, and nothing more. This is not an "opinion": opinion is generated from knowledge - which you do not have. So there is nothing to argue with.

                  My or someone else's quick wits don't concern anyone. If necessary, I will answer in such a way that it does not seem enough.

                  Kindergarten

                  And the defenders of organizational talent ZPR I do not understand vapsche.

                  Maybe this is because you do not know something?
                  Here you look at the local public: it is precisely those who clearly know the facts and can say something concrete --- they do not make claims against Rozhdestvensky. But on the other hand, those who obviously do not know anything on the topic are constantly making claims.
                  And why would it be like that?

                  Andrei, at least he won how much material he dug up and presented on a platter. He can express his opinion at least for controversy. What are you doing here?

                  Like, "get it first"? But then let’s do this: if I don’t have the right to speak out, then you just have to get under the broom and not stick out. Let's agree on this.
                  Well, since I did not shut your mouth - I myself, of course, have the right to speak. And here you are - since you are trying to shut up my mouth - no, you don’t have it: it will be honest.

                  The idea that deputies ZPR did not give out move ???? Who was supposed to give out? From which warehouse? A squadron was being formed in the Baltic and everyone was assigned to it (issued). Can you imagine the substitution order? So it is completely automatic. It only takes care.

                  Oh my God....
                  Squeal, squeak, ignorance ....

                  I explain slowly: the Japanese had TWO admirals for each linear combat detachment. And all in all - 4 admirals only in linear forces. On 12 ships in a line. Rozhdestvensky had 2 detachments — he was alone. And Nebogatov on the 3rd detachment. A total of 12 ships in the line - 2 admirals.
                  Despite the fact that from Nebogatov the admiral as from ... unimportant. in general: seeing very well that the BOTH fragments (Rozhestvensky and Felkersam) dropped out, Nebogatov did not even move to take command and begin to command something. As, however, and Enquist.
                  Given the long way and possible diseases, with Rozhestvensky should send another 2-3 admirals, and with Nebogatov as another mine.
                  But Messrs. Admirals somehow did not break into battle --- preferring to retroactively criticize and discuss. Only two were found: Makarov and Rozhdestvensky. And already, if only for this reason, YOU should treat Christmas with a bit of respect
                  1. 0
                    17 July 2019 16: 16
                    I advise you to read YOUR nonsense again.
                    1. 0
                      17 July 2019 17: 01
                      Ahhhhhh ...
                      \ and waved his hand \

                      Nevertheless, I give you some advice: do not rush to judge the deceased and speak badly of them --- it can always happen that you simply don’t know something about them
          2. +1
            17 July 2019 15: 50
            In general, Witgeft, in addition to the order to go to Vladivostok, gave a not ambiguous order. Do not return to Arthur, in case it is impossible to break through with severe damage, intern in neutral ports. Rozhdestvensky did not even think of this
            1. -1
              17 July 2019 16: 07
              In general, Witgeft, in addition to the order to go to Vladivostok, gave a not ambiguous order. Do not return to Arthur, in case it is impossible to break through with severe damage, intern in neutral ports. Rozhdestvensky did not even think of this

              it's just a miracle what is ....

              I don’t even ask where there are neutral ports nearby --- God be with him, probably they are, since Alexander says.
              But gentlemen, officers are such a bastard that only hint to them about possibilities, so they will swim to the United States --- just to not go into battle. And then they will prove that they absolutely did not have the opportunity to fight, and even accomplished a feat --- saving the carp, people and (most important) themselves to serve their beloved Sovereign.

              Rozhdestvensky had nowhere to hide, he had no PA behind him, and there were no neutral ports. He had to go for a breakthrough, break through in the hope of inflicting serious losses on the enemy. And some of them quickly found their way to "neutral ports" without any order; orders are not needed here.
  10. +1
    16 July 2019 04: 37
    Quote: AK64
    The Garibaldians .... They never confirmed the data indicated in the passport - and therefore the Japanese put them in the 1th military detachment (they did not give the declared speed).

    Sorry, colleague, but they were included there for other reasons.
    After the war, according to a report from Captain Jackson, the Japanese navy was reorganized and the Garibaldians were removed from the First Combat Unit.
    This is how the main forces of the Japanese fleet began to look after the end of the Russo-Japanese war.

    As you can see, the "Garibaldians" were put in one squad with "Yakumo" and "Adzuma", which, according to the report of the British attache, during the Tsushima battle, despite a serious operational overload, were confidently kept in the Kamimura squad. seventeen nodes.
    1. +1
      16 July 2019 10: 45
      Well, indirect evidence that the Garibaldians (at least in the Japanese service - but I think that in general everywhere) have never issued more than 18 nodes, there are quite a lot.
      In general, Italian design is typically characterized by excellent qualities .... in the Mediterranean. (And at the parades --- the view is beautiful, they know how)
      1. +2
        16 July 2019 15: 50
        How could they give more 18 units during operation if, on acceptance tests, both showed a maximum with natural traction 18 with a tail?
        And their coal supply, especially in Tsushima, was much higher than normal.
        1. +1
          16 July 2019 17: 04
          Not about Tsushima, but about "the general value of these ships."
        2. 0
          16 July 2019 17: 16
          Well, taking into account the contours and specific power density, I think, less than 20 knots for any boost, there will be counterarguments - I’m ready to take
          1. +1
            17 July 2019 02: 04
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            taking into account the contours and specific power ratio, I think, less than 20 nodes for any boost

            After installing new, improved propellers on both cruisers, "Nisshin" 14 896 hp. from. and 106,5 rpm reached 20,15 knots.
    2. 0
      16 July 2019 16: 48
      Quote: Comrade
      This is how the main forces of the Japanese fleet began to look after the end of the Russo-Japanese war.

      Something I don’t see either Eagle, Retvisan, or other Relights ....
      1. +2
        16 July 2019 16: 59
        Probably, at the time of compilation of the list, they were under reconstruction / modernization, and the list itself was drawn up shortly after the end of the war. As we can see, only the ships of Nebogatov were included in the list of trophies, which went to the Japanese almost intact, with the exception of the Eagle, which was the only one from Nebogatov's detachment that was a broken floating ruin.
        1. 0
          17 July 2019 09: 06
          it was a broken floating ruin.

          Come on: "First you look - it's scary to look. But as you look closely, there is no serious damage." He was beaten badly - but far from being a "ruin"
      2. +1
        17 July 2019 01: 53
        Quote: Trapper7
        Something I do not see either Eagle

        "Eagle" after repair and modernization aka "Iwami" entered service on November 26, 1907.

        Quote: Trapper7
        neither Retvisan nor other Peresvet

        "Retvizan" was raised on September 22, 1905, entered service aka "Hizen" in November 1908.
        "Peresvet" was raised on June 29, 1905, entered service aka "Sagami" in 1908.
        "Pobeda" was raised on October 17, 1905, entered service aka "Suvo" in 1908.