Tsushima battle. What did Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, dividing the forces into two columns?

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"Imperial Jewels fleet. "Pearls" and "Emerald" ". So in previous cycle article we have analyzed the possible reasons for the refusal. Rozhestvensky from the persecution of Izumi, in which Pearls and Emerald could well take part. Now is the time to proceed to the analysis of the maneuvering of the Russian ships until the beginning of the battle of the main forces and, most importantly, to the tactical plans of the Russian commander. Having understood them, we can understand why Z.P. Rozhestvensky used his high-speed scout cruisers exactly as it actually happened, and not in any other way.

As we said earlier, in the morning of May 14, the Russian ships retained the marching line, but then undertook a number of difficult-to-explain maneuvers: they lined up in the wake line, tried to build a front line with part of the forces, but instead collapsed into two columns, etc. Why ZP Rozhestvensky made such confusion with rebuilding the squadron in battle order?



Two words about combat constructions


To begin with, we recall a few alphabetical, in general, truths.

The first. As we know, at that time there were three main combat systems: the wake column, as well as the front and bearing.

Tsushima battle. What did Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, dividing the forces into two columns?


In this case, the last two in real combat clashes were used quite rarely, the main construction was the wake column. Admirals' commitment to the wake column is explained by the fact that with such a construction, the flagship warship provides maximum visibility, and simple maneuvers (turns in series) can be performed without raising the signals, according to the principle “do as I am”.

The second. During combat maneuvering the length of the system was of great importance. Thus, the 12 armored ships of the Russian squadron, even in a “dense formation”, reducing the spacing between the ships only up to the 1 cable, would still stretch for almost 2 miles, and at the standard two-cable intervals - on all three. As a result, the execution of any maneuver was stretched for a long time: so, if the Russian flagship, moving on 9 nodes, turned sequentially, then the end ship of the squadron would reach the turning point only after almost 20 minutes. In a similar situation, the terminal ship of the Japanese fleet, following on 15 nodes, reached the turning point in 12 minutes. At the same time, in order to avoid misunderstanding, squadrons of those times needed to complete the previous maneuver before starting a new one: it was necessary to avoid confusion and the danger of breaking the line. Thus, we see that the wake column was a rather cumbersome formation, and, having made a decision, the admirals of those times had to “live with it” until they completed the rebuilding. This is a very important point, remember it.

Third. The Russian squadron was significantly inferior to the Japanese in speed, which gave Kh. Togo enormous tactical advantages. In the cycle of articles “Tsifima’s Myths”, the author has already described the British 1901-1903 maneuvers, which irrefutably testified: with some correct maneuvering, the speed advantage of just a couple of knots did not leave the slower side a chance to avoid the “crossing the T ", (" Sticks over T "), which was then considered the best tactical method, allowing to break the enemy fleet.



Many copies were broken on the theme of the separation from the 2 Pacific Pacific High Speed ​​Squadron squadron of the newest battleships of the 5. But such an action would be justified only if the indicated 5 battleships, acting together, could have developed speed more than the Japanese fleet. In this case, they could really try to outplay H. Togo, compensating for their small number with an advantageous tactical position. But this, of course, was not - in the opinion of the author of this article, the best Russian battleships could not go together faster than 13-13,5 nodes, while the Japanese - 15 nodes, and more briefly. And even if we assume that the 1-th armored detachment and Oslyabya were not inferior in speed to the Japanese, it still made no sense to isolate them into a separate detachment. Having no superiority in speed, they still could not have put the "crossing the T" Japanese fleet. Thus, it would all boil down to the fact that the five best Russian ships overtook the rest of the forces and were forced to fight a dozen Japanese armored ships without the support of sluggers: The power ratio is so unequal that it "killed" the Russian squadron no worse than the notorious "Crossing the T".


"Emperor Alexander III"


The Russian commander did his best to train the ships entrusted to him to maneuver, although he did not achieve great success in this. But the NII squadron that had recently joined him. Nebogatov simply did not have time to gain experience of joint actions with the 2 Pacific. At the same time, the Japanese had flooded combat troops that had combat experience, and, apparently, were better than the Russian fleet in coordination.

The conclusion from the above is very simple. The Japanese were superior to the Russians literally in all respects: they were faster, maneuvered better, and had combat experience. Accordingly, Z.P. Rozhestvensky could, of course, build up the main forces of his squadrons in advance in the wake column, or in the front, or bearing. But none of this gave him an advantage, because the Japanese, seeing the Russian system and taking advantage of the speed, always had the opportunity to achieve a tactical victory, setting the Russian commander for that same "crossing the T".

And what do you do?


Strictly speaking, Zinovy ​​Petrovich faced an unsolvable task in tactical terms. But, oddly enough, ZP Rozhdestvensky succeeded in this “almost hopeless situation” of “finding an entrance”. And in order not to draw more intrigue, we will immediately indicate what it was.

Since no type of military system saved the Russians from defeat, the idea of ​​the Russian commander was to ... not accept any system. In other words, the Russian squadron should have been marching before the appearance of the enemy. Then she should wait for the maneuver of X. Togo, and when he manifests his intentions - to turn around in combat formation, depending on the decision of the Japanese commander.

The trick here was this. If ZP Rozhestvensky led the forces entrusted to him by the wake or front line, then Kh. Togo, informed in advance about the battle formation of the Russians, could calculate the correct maneuver in advance and then execute it. The wake column of the Russians would directly “ask for” a “wand over T”, but if Z.P. Rozhestvensky deployed a squadron to the front, then Kh. Togo could attack one of the flanks of the Russian squadron, still putting out "crossing the T". In other words, if Zinovy ​​Petrovich had built his squadron in any military order, the Japanese commander would have known what he should do, and the Russian admiral would not have been able to parry the actions of his enemy. But the marching system created uncertainty, because it was clear that the Russians would turn from it into battle formation, but it was completely incomprehensible in which. Line abreast? Wake column? And where will they be sent?

In such a decision Z.P. Rozhestvensky was one, but a very significant drawback. The visibility of 14 in May was limited to 6-7 for miles and for the time it took the Russian squadron to rebuild (about 20 minutes), the Japanese could get close to the Russian ships on the 10-20 cable. In other words - there was a sufficiently significant risk that the battle would begin even before the Russian squadron had time to completely restructure. However, this could not happen, but even if it did, in this case, the Japanese benefit was still not as big as it could have been if they had succeeded in “crossing the T”.

Let us accept as a hypothesis that the plan of the Russian commander was as follows:

1. Wait for the appearance of the Japanese forces, following in the marching order.

2. Wait for the decision of H. Togo to fight. In other words, the Japanese admiral had to decide how he was going to attack the Russian squadron — try, for example, to place two columns at the same time, or attack a weaker column, or something else.

3. And only when X. Togo makes its decision, and begins to execute it, that is, it will begin the implementation of this or that maneuver, taking advantage of the fact that the execution of this maneuver will bind the Japanese commander for the next 12-15 minutes, to start such a reorganization into battle formation, in which the Russian main forces will be brought into battle in the best way.

Here we assume (again, in the form of a hypothesis) that Z.P. Rozhestvensky did not “dwell on” his plan at all: his task was not to accurately fulfill the above paragraphs, but to prevent the Japanese from gaining a tactical victory in the battle stitch.

And now, having made these assumptions, let's analyze the actions of the Russian squadron and its commander right up to the start of the battle of the main forces.

Fight with the shadow


So, at about 06.20 in the morning, Izumi shows up around the Russian squadron. Marching Russian system, in which it remains unchanged - Z.P. Rozhdestvensky waits, rightly believing that the main forces of the Japanese are not yet nearby. But then new Japanese cruisers appear - Chin-Yen, Matsushima, Itsukushima and Hassidate. This, quite possibly, indicates that a dozen battleships and armored cruisers flying the flag of the rising sun are not far away. Firstly, since the appearance of Izumi, 3 hours have passed, and secondly, it’s still hard to imagine that Kheykhatiro Togo will send a very slow-moving 3 battle squadron to watch the Russian squadron, being too far to have time to come to him to the rescue.

And then the Russian commander begins rebuilding, but how? The right column receives an order to increase the speed to 11 nodes, while the left one continues to follow, as if nothing had happened, on 9 nodes. In other words, the rebuilding takes place very, very slowly, and even if the main forces of the Japanese fleet appeared half an hour later, and even 40 minutes, he would see that the Russians still go in two columns, that is, without rebuilding into a marching system. In other words, the gradual advancement of the right column reduced the time required for rebuilding into a combat order, but up to a certain time did not allow an outside observer to understand what this new order would be. So for a long time, the “intrigue” - how the Russian commander is going to rebuild after all - was preserved.

But time passed, but the Japanese main forces did not have everything. The right column has already almost overtaken the left, and here Z.P. Rozhestvensky build their troops in the wake of the became quite obvious. Finally, new Japanese forces appeared in 11.05, but these were not the battleships H. Togo and the armored cruisers H. Kamimura, but the “dogs” of “Chitose”, “Kasagi”, “Niytaka” and “Tsushima”.

The trick did not work, the Russian commander made a mistake: the maneuver, which was designed to reduce the rebuilding time, had to be stopped earlier, simply reducing the speed of the right column to the 9 nodes, and now it was too late. And - the appearance of "dogs" was supposed to indicate the imminent appearance of the Japanese main forces. Accordingly, there was no time to try to return the squadron to the marching system, and Z.P. Rozhdestvensky is left with the only sensible decision: to build his ships in the wake and to prepare for battle, hoping for the best.

He does this, however, in 11.15, when squadrons line up, a random shot from the Eagle provokes a short ten-minute skirmish with the Japanese cruisers, as a result of which the latter are retreating. However, the Japanese continue to monitor the Russian squadron. In 11.25, the skirmish is over, but 15 minutes go by, 20 - and the main forces of Kheyhatiro Togo as it was not, and no. At this time, it is just time to turn to the course leading to Vladivostok - to the north. Z.P. Rozhdestvensky does just that, but there are also Japanese cruisers that continue to monitor the squadron. Seeing that the Russian column was turning on them, the scouts retreated and for some time lost our ships from view.

And here Z.P. Rozhestvensky again makes an attempt to outwit the Japanese. All this time, their cruisers, watching the Russians, were north of the Russian system, from which it can be concluded that the main forces of the Japanese are coming from the north. It was logical, in particular, in terms of the locations of the Japanese fleet. The Russian commander waited for them to appear at any moment and decided to continue the “shadow fight”.

This time, Zinovy ​​Petrovich, obviously, argued as follows: the "dogs" and the 3 combat detachment would obviously inform H. Togo of the course and the construction of the Russian squadron. The Japanese commander, if he is near, will know that the Russian squadron is marching in line with NO23. Then, using unimportant visibility, he may try to “crossing the T” to the head ships of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky. So why not try to surprise Heyhatiro Togo and rebuild the front?

Here is how Zinovy ​​Petrovich himself described it:

“The desire of all Japanese cruising units to the north, bypassing the squadron, made us think that from the north the appearance of their main forces was also most likely. Assuming that the enemy cruisers report exactly to the fleet commander in detail all about our system, and that he may decide to start a battle, moving closer to the front with our wake column, I thought it useful to rebuild the squadron to the front, using the time when enemy cruisers will be deleted. Near 12.20, when the enemy's light cruisers began to thicken around, I ordered to raise the signal to the 1 and 2 groups of battleships to turn successively to 8 rhombuses to the right, assuming then to extend both squads on a perpendicular course, to turn everything suddenly on 8 rumbs, I turn everything on the chambers. "the detachment to add speed and build the front to the left, as it was practiced squadron."


In other words, the Russian commander tried to prepare a surprise for the Japanese.



Which, however, failed, because at the moment of execution of the maneuver the Japanese cruisers again appeared

“With the rise of the signal, the head Suvorov began to roll to the right. He had not yet managed to turn on the 8 of the rhumb, as the enemy's light cruisers reopened from the mist, but not at an acute angle, but by heading right to the right, perpendicular to ours. ”


In other words, another trick of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky disappeared in vain - instead of the main forces, he again saw only Japanese cruisers in front of him and further rebuilding of the front lost all meaning. If X. Togo is really building the front from the north, and learns in advance that the main Russian forces are coming forward to meet, it will not be difficult for him to reorganize into a wake column and attack the flank of the Russian order, setting "crossing the T".

And then Z.P. Rozhestvensky returns to his original plan:

“Not wanting to prematurely show the enemy rebuilding, I ordered the“ elimination ”detachment to be raised to 2, and when the first detachment was almost stretched out to a perpendicular course, I turned with it successively to 8 points to the left.”




As a result, the Russian squadron was again divided into 2 columns of armored ships, but now in the right column there was only the 1th armored squad, that is, 4 squadron battleships of the “Prince Suvorov” type.

It must be said that this description of the maneuver was made from the words of the commander, but there are other opinions. So, the junior flag officer Z.P. Rozhdestvensky midshipman Demchinsky described this episode differently:

“At 12.30, the first armored detachment turned right to the 8 points successively, and then had to turn left to the 8 points suddenly, but an error occurred during the signal rise, and the signal on the front mast of the sequential turn was raised. In spite of the fact that on the back mast a signal about a turn was suddenly raised and the flag P on the left knock-on, Alexander III turned successively, thus knocking Borodino and Orel, who started the turn suddenly. ”


Who is right? The members historical the commissions that made up the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-1905 assert that it was ZP who was right. Rozhdestvensky, based on the fact that, in fact, on the “back mast” were not raised a signal about the turn “suddenly” and the flag “P”, but the call signs of the 2nd detachment and the signal “F” (canceling), which is confirmed by the logbook “ Pearls. " In addition, the testimony of a number of squadron officers confirms the words of Zinovy ​​Petrovich. So, for example, Lieutenant Slavinsky reported:

“12 hour. 20 min. from "Suvorov" signal: "1-th and 2-th armored units have 11 nodes move, turn sequentially on 8 points to the right." Minutes through 5 from "Suvorov": "The 2 th armored detachment (F) course NO 23 °." As soon as the 1 armored detachment turned successively to 8 points to the right, from “Suvorov” a signal: “Turn the 1 armored unit to 8 points successively to the left”. In view of the fact that, conscious of the power of our nasal fire, the commander assumed that the admiral wanted to build a front system, he did not believe this signal. Then I personally dismantled the flags, looked in the book and reported to the commander that the signal had been disassembled correctly. In addition to the midshipman Shcherbachev, the same signal was dismantled by the senior navigator and the signal foreman who reported the same thing. In parsing the error signal could not be. "


It is interesting that the version of the commander of the Russian squadron was confirmed even by such an ardent opponent of Z.P. Rozhestvensky, as A.S. Novikov-Surf:

"At the signal of the commander, the first and second armored detachments were to increase the course to eleven nodes, turn successively to the right by eight points ... ... When the ships with the rest of the squadron formed a right angle, the commander gave the order:" Turn the first points to the left armored unit "".


Why did the author spend so much time parsing this maneuver? The fact is that Demchinsky’s opinion turned out to be quite widespread. Many interested in the history of the fleet sincerely believe that Z.P. Rozhdestvensky really intended to build his squadron with the letter “G”, where a horizontal stick would be formed by the 4 battleship of the Suvorov and Oslyabya type, and a vertical one would be formed by the same Oslyabya and the ships of the 2 and 3 armored detachments following it. Such a “battle formation”, of course, was no good, since both “sticks” of the Russian system would be too weak to withstand the attack of the Japanese fleet. But, as we see, the Russian commander didn’t do anything like that.

“Good,” the respected reader will say: “But if Z.P. Rozhdestvensky did not succeed, and the squadron was divided into 2 columns for objective reasons, then why would the commander not immediately correct this misunderstanding, and not build the main forces of the squadron again into a single wake formation? ” The answer to this question is very simple: Zinovy ​​Petrovich was convinced that such a squadron construction gave him tactical advantages, which neither the front system nor the wake column would have. Here is how he explained the advantages of such a construction of the Investigation Commission:

"... I left the 1-s detachment of battleships in a separate column, realizing that the construction of the front, if needed, can be performed quickly, by simultaneously turning the 1-th and 2-th units consecutively on the 8 rhombus to the right, then turning" all suddenly "on 8 points to the left and at the same time expanding the 3 unit to the left. Moreover, finding 4-x more high-speed battleships in a separate column, representing the benefits for building the front, was not an obstacle for the rapid transition of the 1-unit to the head of the left column, if, depending on the structure of the enemy, the squadron needed to be not in the front and in wake. "


In other words, Z.P. Rozhestvensky built his main forces in a seemingly completely confused, non-combat system. But this is only at first glance - in fact, the separation of the 1 armored detachment into a separate column gave the Russians a huge advantage: it practically nullified the tactical advantages of the Japanese, which they had before the outset of the battle.

As a matter of fact, H. Togo, seeing such a structure of the Russian squadron, faced a choice: he could either try to put a "crossing the T" on both columns of the Russian battleships, or attack the left or right columns in the wake formation, diverging from them on countercourses.



But, moving in two wake columns, Z.P. Rozhestvensky could successfully parry any of these options, because he could rebuild his forces into the front or the wake very quickly. The thing is that to rebuild from a conventional wake column to the front, at least 1 and 2 units would take Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, at the speed of 9 nodes, is no less than 12 minutes, because the turning point would have passed 8 ships stretching for 2 miles. But moving in two parallel columns, the 1 th and 2 th combat detachments turned into a front almost twice as fast, slightly more than in 5 minutes, since in this case the 1 th and 2 th units would be deployed at the same time rather than consistently.



Perhaps if the Japanese tried to attack "at full speed", the Nebogatov 3 squad wouldn’t have time to turn around, but even in this case the 8 ships of the 1 and 2 squads would meet the Japanese, as well as approaching the turning point "Emperor Nicholas I".

And the same can be said about rebuilding into a wake column. If, moving in the marching order, Z.P. Rozhdestvensky had to move the right column of 2 combat units, including the relatively slow-moving Admiral Nakhimov, Navarin and Sisoy the Great, then in a new position - only the relatively high-speed four battleships of the Borodino type.

But the reverse rebuilding into the wake column was associated with certain risks. But, unfortunately, the story of this will have to be postponed until the next article.

To be continued ...
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487 comments
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  1. +6
    18 May 2019 18: 06
    Get the day! You can immediately question:

    The third. The Russian squadron was significantly inferior to the Japanese in speed, which gave H. Togo enormous tactical advantages.


    belay

    According to Kostenko's testimony, the "Oryol" could develop up to 16 knots before the battle and more than 15 the next morning. What a fright significantly inferior
    issued as akioma?

    I am not a great specialist in Tsushima, therefore I am not ashamed to ask: are there reliable sources that are not affiliated with Rozhestvensky, on the basis of which we can reliably determine the highest possible speed of new armadillos?
    1. +9
      18 May 2019 20: 02
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      According to Kostenko's testimony, the "Eagle" could develop up to 16 knots before the battle and more than 15 the next morning. With what fright I was significantly inferior
      issued as akioma?

      This is such a feature of the author of the article - he created his theory / understanding of the features of the Tsushima battle and adheres to it regardless of the source. More likely - contrary. In the comments of his article several years ago, I cited evidence not only of Kostenko (16-16,5 knots for Orel), but also of the flagship mechanic Obnorsky (Suvorov, Oslyabya - 17 knots), senior officer of Orel (16 knots) about speed for armadillos like Borodino. But he believes that he knows better than those people. A paradox, but not a single one.
      One more - some incomprehensible sympathy for Rozhdestvensky. As if the naval commander, who did not convene meetings about the strategy and tactics of the upcoming battle, did not provide a sufficient level of training (a little practical shooting, maneuvering), he had alternative opportunities to avoid the battle in unfavorable conditions, because he knew about poor shooting and maneuvering. Instead, he led the squadron to slaughter.
      From Kostenko
      ... The moment of the beginning of the battle opened up for Rozhdestvensky a complete opportunity to seize the initiative and attack the Japanese convoy while turning Admiral Togo successively on the reverse course, when his battle convoy was doubled and “tied in a knot” ...
      ... This moment was not only missed, but, on the contrary, Rozhdestvensky, with his first rebuilding into one wake column, confused the entire system of his squadron and from the very beginning of the battle gave the enemy the opportunity to carry out a plan to cover our head, using the huge advantage of the move. It was this passivity and Rozhestvensky’s mistakes in the beginning of the battle that predetermined the quick death of Oslyaby, the failure of Suvorov and the isolation of the three remaining armadillos of the first detachment from the tail of seven armadillos in the artillery duel ...
      1. +4
        18 May 2019 20: 04
        Opinion of the commission to investigate the circumstances of the disaster in the Battle of Tsushima:
        ... The unsuccessful choice of the chief of the squadron, who took command without faith in the possibility of military success, did not pay the necessary attention to the combat training of the squadron, did not tolerate the independent cooperation of his subordinates, and did not have the courage to admit the impossible task, when he himself was convinced of this. Tactical mistakes made by the squadron commander further worsened the situation. Hopeless from the beginning, based not on good faith, but on the blind hope of luck, the operation of breaking through the 2nd Pacific squadron to Vladivostok should have ended in disaster ...
      2. +9
        18 May 2019 20: 52
        Quote: sevtrash
        back I gave evidence not only of Kostenko (16-16,5 nodes for the Eagle),

        And you have written an entire article where Kostenko gave completely different speeds of the Eagle - depending on the mood https://topwar.ru/77952-mify-cusimy-postskriptum.html
        Quote: sevtrash
        but also the flagship mechanic Obnorsky

        To which I replied the opinions of other officers of the squadron. For example - the testimony of the flagship navigator of the corps of naval navigators Colonel Filippovsky
        Speed ​​battleships of a new type could develop 13 nodes, no more, especially under great doubt were Borodino and Eagle.

        Also the opinions of Semenov, starmeha Orel Parfenova ... And you ignored all this, as, actually, any facts that do not fit into your picture of the world
        1. +7
          18 May 2019 22: 09
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          And an entire article was written to you, where Kostenko gave completely different Eagle speeds - depending on the mood

          Kostenko said very clearly about the possible speed of the Eagle to battle. And this is the testimony of a man, a professional shipbuilder who participated in the construction of the Eagle, its completion, spent the whole months-long campaign with the machines of this ship. Whom do you oppose to him? Colonel Filippovsky, with all due respect to the navigator. Oh yes, yourself, beloved. Of course, this changes things. It seems that you tried to find something in Kostenko’s book to somehow level out Kostenko’s opinion.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          and what I answered you with the opinion of other squadron officers. For example - the testimony of the flagship navigator of the corps of naval navigators Colonel Filippovsky

          Yes navigator, you also brought the opinion of Rozhdestvensky, of course. Another opinion of the captain of the 2nd rank Semenov. Do you know what he said first in his testimony? That he cannot give a definite answer what position he held. And he noticed in the testimony - "... I will often speak I do not know, I heard ..., I guessed ... if you accept my position as a" stranger ", almost a passenger ...". As for Parfenov, please give a source. In the official testimony of the Investigative Commission of the 2nd Pacific Squadron from the battleship Orel, it is not. And Kostenko's testimony sounds like "... Orel's mechanical engineers had the opinion that the machines could give 108 revolutions (16-16,5 knots) ...". He also speaks about the complete serviceability of the mechanisms of Suvorov, Alexander, quotes the words of the senior mech and the Borodin engineer about the groundlessness of talk about the malfunctions of his machines.
          What is the bottom line? As a result, for 16-17 knots, we have the opinion of Kostenko (a professional shipbuilder, built and completed the Oryol, worked with its mechanisms throughout the entire trip) and who cumulated the opinions of mechanical engineers, including other ships, the flagship mechanic of the 2nd Pacific squadron Obnorsky, senior Officer Eagle Shvede. And who is against? The loser was an admiral, navigator and captain without a certain position, as he put it about himself - "someone else's passenger". And you were not even a passenger there, but you consider yourself to be right.
          1. +7
            18 May 2019 22: 36
            Quote: sevtrash
            Kostenko clearly said about the possible speed of the Eagle to the battle.

            Yeah, in different places in different ways, giving a run-up from "easily give 18 knots" to "16 knots in non-combat conditions and preliminary preparation"
            Quote: sevtrash
            Who do you oppose to him?

            First of all - Kostenko himself. And since this did not reach you even many years after the discussion, I see no reason to waste my time.
            You do not see contradictions in Kostenko, you do not hear opponents - well, what to talk about? Listen to the same disc?
            1. +2
              18 May 2019 23: 17
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              You don’t see the contradictions of Kostenko,

              And you are manipulating the material. Kostenko's testimony is about 2 pages long, in which he talks about the ship's speed under different conditions, including different overload conditions. Naturally, he indicates a different speed, since the overload varied and he writes about it. Didn't you notice this? Why? Unwillingness to see what subverts your "theories"?
              And Kostenko writes, referring to the opinion of mechanics - if necessary, the ship could give 16-16.5 knots.
            2. +4
              18 May 2019 23: 30
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              You don’t hear opponents - so what to talk about?

              You can actually say that to yourself. You can and should listen, but far from everyone can take it on faith. Despite the fact that you are a good author, a priori you should not believe at all. You can come up with a theory based on something incomprehensible, which will contradict the original sources and prove with foam at the mouth that you are right. Like here with speed. Remember the calculation, which several years ago justified the impossibility of high speed. Something is there to divide Kostenko’s data into Rozhdestvensky, add a couple of nodes, take away one and something else. Maybe you needed to get a patent?
          2. 0
            21 May 2019 15: 55
            In general, the navigator, as it were, would much more accurately calculate the exact speed, and the mechanic can count only revolutions.
    2. +9
      18 May 2019 20: 49
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      I am not a great Tsushima specialist, so I am not ashamed to ask: are there reliable sources not affiliated with Rozhestvensky, based on which one can reliably determine the maximum possible speed of new battleships?

      There are :))) Read Kostenko. CAREFULLY:))))
      Well, if quite fluently, then it was so. As you know (from the words of Kostenko!) The overload of the "Eagle" after the battle decreased - the ship burned a lot of coal, shot ammunition.
      Due to the consumption of shells, coal, water, oil and items thrown overboard during the battle, the battleship was unloaded to 800 tons, surfaced to 16 inches, the main armor belt appeared from the water. The mechanisms and the steering wheel are intact, the fuel remains 750 tons. Full stroke preserved until 15 1 / 2-16 nodes

      This is Kostenko - in one of the chapters of his book. But in the testimony of the Investigative Commission, Kostenko, alas, said "a little" different
      The Eagle was not prepared to give full speed in advance. Meanwhile, he could count on the 16 — 16,5 node only at full stress. For a full speed, it would be necessary to remove from the tops of the majority of people from the filing of shells, from the bilge and fire battalion, to help the firemen and machinists. Consequently, in preparing to give full speed, it was necessary to abandon combat targets in advance, to concentrate all forces and attention on coal, vehicles and boilers ..

      In other words, if the 800-16 bonds could be lightened by 16,5 and the EBR only if he refused to fight, what speed could he have developed while being heavier on 800s and still leaving the gunners at the guns? :))))
      And now we recall that the most problematic ship was not the Eagle, but Borodino, and the squadron speed of the detachment of ships was always lower than the full speed of the slowest one. For the Japanese, the armadillos gave 18 knots to full speed, and the squadron speed did not exceed 15, briefly - 16 knots.
      And that's what I say, according to Kostenko. But there was a mass of other officers who negatively evaluated the speed of our high-speed ships.
      And further. Think nevertheless yourself - our EDBs were inferior to the Japanese in speed on the 1 node, even in terms of terms of reference. In fact turned out overloaded. Waving the ends through half the world. And met with the Japanese squadron, who completed repairs on the eve of the battle.
      Any other comments needed? :)
      1. +5
        18 May 2019 20: 57
        Any other comments needed? :)


        Yes, they are.

        According to Kostenko, once again, 16 knots before the battle, he was injured, but was relieved, therefore, after the battle the next morning more than 15 knots, and here fouling and half the world request If before the battle it’s clear that 16 knots

        And now let's remember that the most problematic ship was not Oryol, but Borodino


        this thesis needs to be verified. immediately wrote:
        I’m not ashamed to ask: are there reliable sources that are not affiliated with Rozhestvensky, on the basis of which it is possible to reliably determine the maximum possible speed of new battleships?

        I had it in mind, since my info is contradictory: it seems that there were problems, but it seems that they were eliminated

        in any case, from the school geometry course for the 5th grade, an elementary truth follows: + 20% of the speed is extremely difficult to convert into "crossing the Ti", for this you need an advantage of one and a half times or more, which would not exist if Rozhdestvensky would meet the requirements on the intellectual development of a schoolchild in middle classes (in my class they solved all such problems - though the class was strong: 5 gold medalists)
        1. +10
          18 May 2019 21: 05
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          According to Kostenko, once again

          Here I have disassembled in detail, all that Kostenko wrote about the speed of the Eagle
          https://topwar.ru/77952-mify-cusimy-postskriptum.html
          In essence, he spit this speed as he wanted, indicating it as he needed it at this particular moment. In other words, you now tear out ONE testimony convenient for you, ignoring all the others. And this is not good :))))
          And there is another such aspect. In the book, you could write anything, she 1955 g edition, then did not scold for criticism of the royal admirals. But for the knowingly false testimony of the Investigation Commission it was possible and that ... grab on the ass. Therefore, these testimonies are much more interesting than books.
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          in any case, from the school geometry course for the 5th grade, an elementary truth follows: + 20% of the speed is extremely difficult to convert into "crossing the T", for this you need advantages of one and a half times or more

          Explain this to the British admirals who lost the squadron over and over again, which had the advantage in speed at the 1,5-2 node. Moreover, the 1903 r maneuvers were lost by the admiral, who won the 1901 r maneuvers - only in the 1-th time he commanded a high-speed detachment, and in the second - a slow-moving one.
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          in my class, all such puzzles were solved - the truth and the class was strong: 5 gold medalists

          I sympathize, because in my class there were no gold medalists. Only now the school was probably the best in the Russian Federation and our students regularly took world gold in physics and mathematics.
          But in general, now I understand a lot. Medalists have such a trait - it seems to them that their knowledge is sufficient to solve any task :))))
          1. -2
            18 May 2019 21: 09
            Here I have disassembled in detail, all that Kostenko wrote about the speed of the Eagle
            https://topwar.ru/77952-mify-cusimy-postskriptum.html


            However, V.P. Kostenko brings only 6 revolutions per node, i.e. significantly less than the average 6,78-7,09 revolutions per node. This is even less than 6,12 revolutions per speed knot, which on average was shown by the underloaded “Eagle” during tests!


            read. because I know about the nonlinear relationship between speed and speed ... I laughed and decided that ... "there are spots on the Sun too", generally an unsuccessful article, IMHO
            1. +8
              18 May 2019 21: 20
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              was reading. because I know about the non-linear relationship between speed and speed

              The only trouble is that we have a comparable speed range, so - by :)))
              1. 0
                18 May 2019 21: 27
                even if by then 15 knots gave a minimum of 4 battleships = 100500%,
                although it is unlikely that by laughing
                Borodino, damn it means, if you believe the bubble, then 12-13, but if you fix the problem, then at least 15 like all
                then the geometry goes to the 5th grade, there I solved the problem of the ratio of speeds on circles of different radii, decide for yourself, you will understand that + 20% of the speed is not enough Yes
                1. +7
                  18 May 2019 21: 32
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  even if past 15 nodes were given at least 4 battleship

                  Total squadron - 13,5 briefly 14. More questions?
                  Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                  next geometry on class 5

                  Alas, there are no maneuvers in ship navigation, which are solved with the help of 5 class geometry :) But I will teach you this in a simple maneuver of overtaking the left 4 column of the EBR of the 1 squad
                  1. -3
                    19 May 2019 13: 45
                    More questions?


                    Yeah, get out a little such crowbar:

                    Attention to the question: if on 28.07.1904/3/XNUMX the advantage of XNUMX knots did not even come close to qualify for the "crossing-T", what would not have happened under Tsushima? this, by the way, is an excellent topic for the whole article)

                    there, by the way, it will be cool to solve a problem with movement along two circles)
                    1. +6
                      19 May 2019 20: 58
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      attention the question: if on 28.07.1904/3/XNUMX the advantage of XNUMX knots did not even come close to qualify for "crossing-T"

                      Thanks to the illiterate maneuvering of Togo
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      Yeah, get out a little such crowbar:

                      Throw it back :)
                      1. -3
                        19 May 2019 23: 18
                        Throw it back :)


                        fu, how low is all that was enough for you? trouble, see, with arguments
                      2. +4
                        20 May 2019 07: 33
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Fu, how low

                        Well, low or high, you can see it better - I don’t know where you got it from laughing
                      3. 0
                        20 May 2019 07: 25
                        Well, you have to uncover:

                        "Wouldn't the dear gin be kind enough to analyze, in contrast to the ZPR, the maneuvers of the Russian squadron, when it was led by" Alexander 3 "?

                        feel
                      4. +5
                        20 May 2019 07: 35
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        "Wouldn't the dear gin be kind enough to analyze, in contrast to the ZPR, the maneuvers of the Russian squadron, when it was led by" Alexander 3 "?

                        Andrew, I have not only in the comments, but also in l / s strongly advised to stop feeding the troll. So - no, it will not, except that when it comes to this hand to make the description in the article. However, in the Tsushima Myths, I have already done this in brief
                      5. -3
                        20 May 2019 07: 39
                        So - no, it won’t, unless, when they get to this point, make a description in the article.


                        Colleague, sorry for being rude, are you by any chance not the reincarnation of ZPR? hi
          2. +3
            18 May 2019 22: 13
            Explain this to the British admirals


            I apologize, did not immediately answer:
            1901 - it’s just Tsushima, speed has nothing to do with it, IMHO, Noel did not have time to rebuild from the columns into something else reasonable, just like ZPR, for which he was torn
            1902 year - I have no description, can you share?
            1903 - there the task was a slow-moving squadron at all costs to cut Domville off the base, that is, it does not count in the direction of the action, if Wilson’s task was, for example, a positive account for losses, the picture of the battle would be completely different

            Threat. if I argue, then I think that I reasonably think that I have a crowbar in my sleeve, and, as a rule, it’s by no means one)
            1. +6
              18 May 2019 22: 33
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              Shl. I if argue, means I consider that I reasonably think

              Considering is one thing, rightly - something else entirely :)))
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              1901 year - it's just Tsushima, the speed is nothing to do with, IMHO, Noel did not have time to reorganize from the columns into something other reasonable

              Exactly the exact opposite - Noel didn’t have time to turn around precisely because his opponent went on 13 nodes, while Noel went on 9 bonds, and waited for the same from the opponent. And his attempt to go 12 with ties already gave nothing (really the column gave 10-11 nodes)
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              1902 year - I have no description, can you share?

              No, except that Noel blew all the same, although his second time should not have been taken by surprise
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              1903 year - there the task was a low-speed squadron at all costs to cut off Domville from the base, that is, not quite in the direction of action

              I don’t know what you have, what is “chic”, what is “not chic”, but in general the task is classical - not to let the enemy go to the home base, and the solution of this task was facilitated by the fact that the slow-moving squadron was already between Domville and the base
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              if Wilson’s task were, for example, a positive loss account, the battle picture would have been completely different

              Your "calculation" is based on "I want it so much." Otherwise, you would have noticed that Domville did not just have to put his wand over the T, he had to first outpace the retreating squadron in order to intercept him. That is, if Domville was not bound by the need to break through somewhere, it would be much easier for him to win :)
              And where is your crowbar? :)))
              1. -1
                18 May 2019 23: 04
                Exactly the exact opposite - Noel didn’t have time to turn around precisely because his opponent went on 13 nodes, while Noel went on 9 bonds, and waited for the same from the opponent. And his attempt to go 12 with ties already gave nothing (really the column gave 10-11 nodes)


                winked But how does this lack of progress unfold due to superiority in squadron speed?

                I will not just lag behind - in one of my universities I wrote a work on the topic "Baron Kato and the problem of squadron speed in a general battle" as an English extracurricular reading, therefore I am offended - I will understand)

                but in general the classic task is not to miss the enemy to their native base


                here I am about the inversion of battle geometry Yes
                1. +3
                  19 May 2019 01: 25
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  But how does this lack of progress unfold due to superiority in squadron speed?

                  Do not believe it, but the opposing squadron approached Noel too quickly - he did not have time to turn around :)))
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  so simply will not leave me alone - in one of my universities I wrote a paper on the topic of extracurricular reading in English.

                  Taking into account what you wrote about Rozhestvensky ... it’s better not to refer to it :))
                  1. 0
                    19 May 2019 14: 23
                    Do not believe it, but the opposing squadron approached Noel too quickly - he did not have time to turn around :)))


                    sir, this is understandable to a fool, do not try to get off the topic of an answer to a simple question:

                    how the British maneuvers of 1901-1903 proved that superiority in squadron speed by 2 knots would be guaranteed by the "crossing-T" against a correctly maneuvering enemy

                    You write that Noel did not organize reconnaissance in 1901, so he did not have time to turn around, this is understandable, exactly as it happened under Tsushima, but this is not proof that superiority in squadron speed by 2 knots is guaranteed to be guaranteed by "crossing-T" in relation to a correctly maneuvering enemy

                    You write that in 1902 there is again a surprise factor, but this is not proof that superiority in squadron speed by 2 knots will be guaranteed by "crossing-T" in relation to a correctly maneuvering enemy

                    dismantled in 1903, there was an inversion: a slow-moving squadron imposed a fast battle, so this is not proof that superiority in squadron speed by 2 knots will be guaranteed by "crossing-T" against a correctly maneuvering enemy

                    28.07.1904/1/2 2 TOE, inferior in speed to the more notorious XNUMX knots, did not receive any head coverage at once, this is proof that the superiority in squadron speed by XNUMX knots is guaranteed not will provide "crossing-T" against a correctly maneuvering enemy

                    Total: your two examples by the cash register completely, one your example is extremely controversial, tactfully speaking, but my example about July 28.07.1904, XNUMX knocks out all the ground for the defenders of ZPR

                    once again because:
                    do not try to get off the topic of answering a simple question: how did the British maneuvers of 1901-1903 prove that superiority in squadron speed by 2 knots is guaranteed by "crossing-T" against a correctly maneuvering enemy
                    1. +3
                      19 May 2019 21: 03
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      sir it's understandable to the fool

                      I am glad. Finally!
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      You write, Noel did not organize reconnaissance in 1901, therefore he didn’t manage to turn around

                      No, it's not clear :))) Where did I say a word about intelligence? :) Noel simply misunderstood the speed of the approaching column
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      You write, in 1902 again, the surprise factor

                      Where? Fantasize for me? Oh well)
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      dismantled the 1903 year, there was an inversion: the low-speed squadron imposed a high-speed battle, so this is not proof

                      Prove it :))) You just made a completely absurd and tactically impossible statement - well, confirm it
                      1. -1
                        19 May 2019 22: 54
                        I am glad. Finally!


                        So, rolled into a banal rudeness. Oh, what a sign of weakness)

                        Noel simply misjudged the speed of the approaching column - oh, yes, well, write an article about these maneuvers?

                        Prove it :))) You just made a completely absurd and tactically impossible statement - well, confirm it


                        read about these maneuvers; everything is written there

                        And again:

                        28.07.1904/1/2 2 TOE, yielding in speed to the more notorious XNUMX knots, did not receive any head coverage at once, this is proof that superiority in squadron speed by XNUMX knots will not be guaranteed by "crossing-T" in relation to a correctly maneuvering enemy


                        once again because:
                        do not try to get off the topic of answering a simple question: how did the British maneuvers of 1901-1903 prove that superiority in squadron speed by 2 knots is guaranteed by "crossing-T" against a correctly maneuvering enemy
                      2. +3
                        20 May 2019 11: 13
                        Good afternoon, Andrey Nikolaevich. Kostenko, Kostenko ... Do you have any desire to write an article on the Kostenko project of a high-speed armored cruiser? What was he like? Everything is very dull, except, like in Melnikov's "Cruiser Varyag" and then a few lines- "At the same displacement speed as Asama, taking the latest Norman water-tube boilers for his project, he was able to fit in his project 4 tower 254 mm guns and 16 152 mm ... "and that's it. And it would be interesting to know more - almost Rurik-2 only in a displacement of 10,5 thousand tons. It's a pity the time is short, I would have read his book, I didn’t take it in my hands for 8-10 years ...
                      3. +5
                        20 May 2019 14: 38
                        Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                        And do you have a desire to write an article on the project of Kostenko of a high-speed armored cruiser?

                        Alas, nothing is really known about him, and I do not think that he is even in the archives. After all, this is essentially something like a thesis work, I doubt that it was preserved.
                        Quote: Oleg Kolsky 051
                        And it would be interesting to learn more, almost Rurik-2, only in the displacement 10,5 thousand tons.

                        When finalizing this diploma to a real project, it would be Rurik-2 that would have turned out :))))
                      4. +1
                        20 May 2019 17: 08
                        Sorry. This is where the field would not be plowed, for disputes and discussions. It’s a pity not to know where Melnikov got the information on.
                      5. +2
                        20 May 2019 21: 12
                        When finalizing this diploma to a real project, it would be Rurik-2 that would have turned out :))))

                        In terms of displacement? Why? After all, the contemporaries of Rurik2 - the Italian type "Pisa" remained at 10kT, having the same weapons at 2uz. more speed. Agree that 23+ knots in the coming dreadnought era look much better than 21+. True, the range is cloudy for both))
                        Alas, nothing really is known about him ...

                        It is a pity, then maybe you will write about the tower project of the "steam locomotive society" - the topic of the "six-thousanders" is vast and it seems not quite, they did not even reveal it at all in the articles about Varyag.
          3. -1
            18 May 2019 22: 41
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            In fact, he spun that speed as he wanted, indicating it as he needed it at that particular moment.

            That is what you are doing. Kostenko gave official testimony to the commission of inquiry, where no one would turn, because the level is not the same and there are no problems to check. Therefore, you can trust him. Since he had a professional education, while studying at the Marine Engineering School he worked on the project of a high-speed cruiser, built the same Eagle, worked with his machines the whole trip. I have no doubt that he knew much more than you. Especially regarding the speed of the battleships of the Borodino type. And who are you against him? Apparently, it’s just you and a lover of speed. It is an amateur.
            1. +6
              19 May 2019 10: 15
              Quote: sevtrash
              worked with his cars

              What kind of machines did Kostenko work with? He is a shipbuilding engineer. Mechanical engineer was trained at another faculty.
              1. -1
                19 May 2019 11: 34
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                What kind of machines did Kostenko work with? He is a shipbuilding engineer. Mechanical engineer was trained at another faculty.

                Kostenko was appointed Assistant Builder Orel Yakovlev, who was replaced by Lebedev, who, in turn, shifted all the practical work on completion to Kostenko and Prokhorov. Did the mechanisms work come into his attention? Rhetorical question.
                Then he was appointed a ship engineer "... to supervise the completion and repair of ship defects, as well as to instruct the ship crew on the voyage ...". By the way, it seems like it was Rozhestvensky who put forward the initiative of appointing naval engineers to new battleships, believing that "... the presence of naval engineers on ships will make it easier for personnel to familiarize themselves with the ships' equipment and provide quick correction of defects along the way ...".
                Should the ship engineer know / understand the state problems of mechanisms?
                1. +6
                  19 May 2019 20: 32
                  I understand that specialization does not exist for you, but shipbuilding and the operation of ship mechanisms are quite different things. A graduate of the shipbuilding department, of course, had some idea of ​​steam engines, but nothing more. Mechanical engineer was trained in another department.
                  And if you recall that Kostenko has just left the school, and he has zero experience in practical work ...
                  1. +1
                    19 May 2019 21: 34
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    And if you recall that Kostenko has just left the school, and he has zero experience in practical work ...

                    As I understand it, you have not read Kostenko’s book. Like his testimony in the publication of the commission at the Naval General Staff. Like my rather detailed comments about his work. Maybe you should first read them, and then decide on his skills. And by the way, evaluating Kostenko’s knowledge, please note that his book was published in 1955, and not during training.
                    1. +3
                      20 May 2019 09: 50
                      Quote: sevtrash
                      As I understand it

                      Do not understand correctly. I read Kostenko’s book and I know very well who he is in later became. And I also know who he was. - A member of a terrorist organization that was absolutely not shy about its means. And therefore, I believe that his evidence should be treated with some caution.
          4. +4
            19 May 2019 19: 59
            Explain this to the French admirals, who conducted four training fights in the summer maneuvers of 1910, and according to the results of these battles they came to the conclusion that a speed superiority of two or three knots was simply not enough to win the maneuver, only the last, that is, the maneuver gain cruisers. having superiority over armadillos by 6-8 knots.
            As the famous anecdote says: "There are options."
            Water, as you know, sharpens a stone.
            The situation with the speed of Japanese ships resembles the situation with the speed of German fighters from World War II. Suffice it to compare the information on the speed of German fighters, for example, in the magazine "Wings of the Motherland" for 1974-1976, and the information that has appeared in books published over the past ten years.
            The speeds that are usually indicated for Japanese ships are the speeds during acceptance trials, with afterburners of cars and enhanced blowing into the boilers. Selected coal, specially trained "booster teams". For one time.
            Battleships of the "Borodino" type were overloaded during construction, and Japanese battleships too.
            With water-tube boilers, the British also suffered in the first series of battleships.
            Has the Japanese passed this bowl?
            No matter how fast Japanese new armadillos could walk.
            "Fuji" - an obsolete battleship, more than 15 knots by the time of the RYAV did not go.
            Japanese armored cruisers are a separate song, my favorite. From admiration for the 1979 "Marine Collection" to understanding what these "underdogs" were.
            Thanks to Balakin and Aleksandrov for their work on Asama-class cruisers, published in the 2006 Sea Campaign. The fastest - the "British" went 17 knots for a long time.
            "German", the most perfect of the series - 16 knots for a long time. "Frenchman", with badly assembled machines - 15 knots for a long time.
            And no matter how fast the Russian ships could go.
            Rozhdestvensky led the squadron at a speed of 9 knots, the speed of an artillery shield during a shooting exercise.
            The difference is six knots.
            Hello to the English admirals from the French.
        2. +1
          24 May 2019 17: 04
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          which wouldn’t exist if Rozhdestvensky would correspond to the middle school student according to his intellectual development (in my class they solved all such problems - though the class was strong: 5 gold medalists)

          Ahaha. Another Novikov-Priboy. Once again I repeat, after reading the forums and modeling the battle, of course you can consider yourself smarter than the admiral.
      2. +3
        18 May 2019 22: 25
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And that's what I say, according to Kostenko. But there was a mass of other officers who negatively evaluated the speed of our high-speed ships.

        This is nonsense, of course, since the most authoritative sources did not think so.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        They waved the ends through half the world. And met with the Japanese squadron, which completed the repair in anticipation of the battle.
        Any other comments needed? :)

        As a comment, we can quote the words - official testimony - Kostenko. He notes that the mechanisms of the Baltic plant turned out to be successful and, thanks to good care, their condition improved during the campaign. And Borodino had more problems in words than in deeds, he cited the evidence above. If you hint at the state of the underwater part during the voyage over half the world, then you said about it before, you certainly "forgot", but the underwater part was clean, which even the Japanese were surprised when they brought the Eagle into the dock.
        1. +3
          19 May 2019 01: 24
          Quote: sevtrash
          This is nonsense, of course, since the most authoritative sources did not think so.

          Aghas :))) And who is more authoritative, you determined by choosing from a multitude of testimonies the one and only thing that corresponds to your point of view :))
          Quote: sevtrash
          That is what you are doing. Kostenko gave official testimony to the investigative commission, where no one will turn, because the level is not the same and there are no problems to check. Therefore, you can believe him.

          I believe :))) Because the investigation, Kostenko told the truth - the battleship before the battle could give 16-16,5 bonds only if it was unloaded to 800 t and to drive the whole team to the firemakers. That is, before the battle, his maximum speed in a combat-ready state according to Kostenko clearly did not exceed 14,5-15 knots.
          And for the rest, all the references, all the opinions I cited, so that those who read the correspondence will decide for themselves.
          1. +1
            19 May 2019 09: 18
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Aghas :))) And who is the most authoritative, you determined, choosing from the set of testimonies the one and only that corresponds to your point of view

            Well, why are you lying so brazenly? After all, a little higher in the comments I indicate 3 (three, THREE, Karl!) Sources, of all the official testimonies, these are the most significant for judging speed. Flagship mechanic, senior officer / commander of Orel (the only survivor of the new battleships) and Kostenko, who is passionately unloved by you.
            Once again - the ship's engineer Kostenko, a professional shipbuilder, his project at the engineering school about a high-speed cruiser, participated in the construction of the ship the speed of which is in question, together with the squadron on this ship spent the entire voyage, servicing these machines, with officers of the 2nd Pacific squadron after the battle repeatedly discussed the specifics of this battle, in the Admiralty Naval Technical Committee (you never dreamed of such a level; or did you dream? :))), where Kostenko made an extensive report on the role of battleships of the Borodino type. Where he indicated a possible speed of 15-16 knots for new battleships. At the Admiralty Marine Technical Committee! The report was attended by: from the artillery department of the committee - Major General Brink, Chief Engineer of the Petersburg Port, Major General Skvortsov, Head of the Baltic Shipyard, Major General Veshkurtsev, representatives of the Main Naval Staff, professors of the Naval Academy, commanders of some ships of the Baltic Fleet, who returned from captivity officers of the 2nd squadron, ship engineers and mechanical engineers of the Petersburg and Kronstadt ports, heads of design bureaus of factories and a number of invited specialists. In total, according to the list approved by Ratnik, up to 100 representatives from the shipbuilding part of the fleet, the personnel of the fleet and floating ships were invited.
            Are you aware of the composition and level of knowledge, experience of people who came to listen to Kostenko? This is a level that you do not have and never will. Your attempts to slander Kostenko look like barking pugs at an elephant. Well, can you really believe that you can know better Kostenko? Judging from your fabrications and reactions, you think so. Well, this characterizes you quite clearly. wassat
            1. +2
              19 May 2019 21: 10
              Quote: sevtrash
              Well, what is so blatantly lying?

              And who knows you - is lying.
              Quote: sevtrash
              After all, a little higher in the comments, I indicate 3 (three, THREE, Karl!) Sources, of all the official testimonies, these are the most significant for judging the speed. Flagship mechanic, senior officer / commander of the Eagle (the only survivor of the new battleships) and Kostenko, who is hotly unloved by you.

              That is, in confirmation of the words of Kostenko, you bring ... Kostenko. Bravo!
              Kostenko, I denied, showing that he himself contradicts. Senior officer eagle said
              To develop the most complete course, it would take a part to change exhausted people from the car and boilers, and, moreover, to send as many new ones as possible, removing the servants from the service for this, weakening the bilge fire division, etc.

              And he also said
              The Eagle could not count on a move, more than 15 — 16 nodes and, moreover, by going on such a move, one would have to refuse to respond to the enemy’s fire.

              That is, calling a Swede for a certificate you are lying in the most brazen manner.
              Only one certificate remains - as I indicated
              1. +1
                19 May 2019 21: 57
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And who knows you - is lying.

                Well, who is the master of juggling - you, of course.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                That is, in support of Kostenko’s words, you quote ... Kostenko. Bravo! I denied Kostenko, showing that he contradicts himself.

                And you're lying again! I said that there are three most important sources in the testimony in confirmation of the speed of the new battleships of 16-17 knots - Kostenko, Obnorsky, and Swede. Where is Kostenko here twice? Ay liar! laughing
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Senior eagle officer said
                To develop the most complete course, it would take a part to change exhausted people from the car and boilers, and, moreover, to send as many new ones as possible, removing the servants from the service for this, weakening the bilge fire division, etc.
                And he also said
                The Eagle could not count on a move, more than 15 — 16 nodes and, moreover, by going on such a move, one would have to refuse to respond to the enemy’s fire.

                And here lies! And how not ashamed laughing
                Here is what he said in the official testimony - "... I think that the fullest speed, under all favorable conditions, with the consumption of the best rumbled coal and replaced the tired stoker by another reason, could have been given. Until the water was drilled on the decks." not more than 15-16 knots ... ". And that's all. The rest, what you write, you lied and compiled from his words about the state of the ship after the day's battle. So at the beginning of the battle the speed of 15-16 knots could be maintained.
                Lies and compilation, fitting facts. Tell me, why do you need this? Do you really consider yourself a genius, unmistakable and inappropriate criticism? Or don’t you know how to admit your mistakes, errors?
                1. +1
                  19 May 2019 22: 15
                  Quote: sevtrash
                  I said that in the testimony there are three most important sources in confirmation of the speed of the new battleships of 16-17 nodes - Kostenko, Obnorsky, Shveda. Where is Kostenko here twice? Ay, liar!

                  That is, you still cannot understand that in confirmation of the words of Kostenko,
                  Quote: sevtrash
                  Kostenko, Obnorsky, Shveda

                  How to say so ... Inappropriate? M-dya. I'm afraid medicine is powerless here.
                  Quote: sevtrash
                  Here is what he said in the official testimony - "... I think that the fullest speed, under all favorable conditions, with the consumption of the best rumbled coal and replaced the tired stoker by another reason, could have been given. Until the water was drilled on the decks." not more than 15-16 knots ... "

                  This is BEFORE the fight :))) And these words of his are completely refuted by Kostenko, who stated that
                  "there were five battleships with a course of 16 to 18 knots."

                  True, Kostenko immediately recovered
                  The commander did not single out four battleships of the Borodino type into one tactical independent unit, and with them Oslyabya, which, with proper preparation, had a squadron course in the 15-16 units.

                  That is, 15-16 ties under proper preparation from the words of Kostenko, under ALL FAVORABLE CONDITIONS from the words of the Swede
                  Only here the squadron did not have these favorable conditions.
                  But after the battle Schwede exactly repeated assessment Kostenko

                  Quote: sevtrash
                  Lying and compiling, fitting the facts.

                  no, it's just your deep illiteracy and inability to work with sources
                  then I wish you health - I see no reason to spend my time on you and beyond. hi
                  1. -3
                    20 May 2019 00: 11
                    wait a minute, we kind of argued that the Great namesake estimates the Borodino speed as not more than 14 knots)

                    colleagues are already visible not the first keyboard was broken, proving that Kostenko was wrong and the true speed of the "Eagle" should have been 14-15 knots in the morning before the battle, but to hell with them, "let the damned weevil choke" (c) let the Borodino people walk 14,5 .13,5, and the old battleships are 9,0, that's not 13 knots! and a squadron move of even 16 knots against 28.07.1904 allows you to avoid "crossing-T", see battle on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX


                    since 14 knots = ZPR stupid psycho = article is incorrect = will suit me)
                    1. +1
                      20 May 2019 12: 12
                      The speed of the EDB detachment with new artillery was limited by Sisoy and Borodino - but they gave 14 knots ... from here the detachment could hold 13 knots ...
          2. +1
            19 May 2019 14: 29
            and drive the whole team into stokers

            lol belay
            give proofs?
            1 proof. the whole team, being driven into the stokers, will be able to work there simultaneously
            proof 2. the whole team, being driven into stoker, will be able to increase speed above the standard

            or, in your opinion, the staff of stokers could provide only 14 knots? laughing

            That is, before the battle, its maximum speed in combat-ready condition according to Kostenko clearly did not exceed 14,5-15 knots.

            lol belay
            give proof that during the battle the battleship did not receive damage that adversely affect its speed?
            1. +2
              19 May 2019 21: 04
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              give proofs?

              Already given above - Kostenko’s testimony to the Investigation Commission :))) I can still give Schwede, the senior officer of the Eagle
              Quote: Andrei Shmelev
              give proof that during the battle the battleship did not receive damage that adversely affect its speed?

              You forgot Kostenko so quickly? :))) He has everything. What is your memory selective, however
              1. -2
                19 May 2019 22: 51
                Sir, you are a miserable liar at the moment:

                and drive the whole team into stokers


                One more time:
                give proofs?
                1 proof. the whole team, being driven into the stokers, will be able to work there simultaneously


                give proofs?
                proof 2. the whole team, being driven into stoker, will be able to increase speed above the standard


                With the first two points it is clear - do not give.
                And here:
                Already given above - the testimony of Kostenko of the Investigative Commission :)))

                something I don’t see where?
                1. 0
                  20 May 2019 07: 37
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  One more time:
                  give proofs?
                  1 proof. the whole team, being driven into the stokers, will be able to work there simultaneously

                  on what nonsense to give proof? It seemed to me that we were discussing Kostenko's remark.
                  1. -2
                    20 May 2019 08: 08
                    what nonsense to give proof?


                    on your crap, you wrote it

                    you have so far tight even with proof about the error of the range finder laughing which from a distance of 10 cables will never determine the distance to "Oslyabya" with an accuracy of at least a cable lol fool

                    and it’s tight with the proof that the relative speed of the columns cannot be measured with an angle meter and a lag lol fool

                    and you have a tight proof that there is no way to figure out the length of your own column laughing

                    and you don’t know the rules of safe navigation

                    and you can’t answer a simple question:
                    if ZPR is not a stupid nutcase, why did Oslyabya stop cars?
                    1. 0
                      20 May 2019 14: 40
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      on your crap, you wrote it

                      Lies, I did not write this
                      1. 0
                        20 May 2019 16: 44
                        I believe :))) Because Kostenko told the truth to the investigation - the battleship before the battle could give 16-16,5 knots only if it was unloaded by 800 tons and drive the whole team into stokers.


                        The Great Namesake Wrote
                  2. 0
                    20 May 2019 12: 13
                    Kostenko is not an angel, but he is an eyewitness and a professional ... as his opinion is more authoritative, especially since he expressed it not only with the Bolsheviks, but not directly accused of his colleagues and lies, unlike you ... bully
                    1. 0
                      20 May 2019 14: 14
                      Kostenko is not an angel, but he is an eyewitness and a professional ...

                      Professional? Seriously? At that time, he was, in fact, a 23-year-old graduate of the Marine Engineering School, who received his first assignment. Will you name a graduate of a university who got a job at his first job a professional?
                      1. +1
                        20 May 2019 15: 06
                        Quote: CentDo
                        Seriously?

                        Of course, already a specialist wrote and made reports - half a year of campaign and battle is a good school ...
                        Quote: CentDo
                        You’ll name a graduate of a university who got his first job,

                        you are wrong - see above ....
                      2. -1
                        20 May 2019 15: 20
                        Of course, already a specialist wrote and made reports

                        Very controversial. In one year they do not become professionals. Hopeful at best. Yes, and he finished the shipbuilding department, and not mechanical. Therefore, unconditionally believe that Kostenko, a year after the release, also understood the ship’s non-core vehicles professionally ... Sorry, but this is complete nonsense.
                      3. 0
                        21 May 2019 15: 25
                        I do not see the subject of discussion - the question of the definition of the word professional and its difference from the word a good specialist ... bully
                      4. 0
                        21 May 2019 16: 29
                        The subject of discussion - it is not clear on what a based belief in the truth of the words of the controversial historical character, which for some reason are presented as truth in the last resort. Although, I repeat, at that time he was no professional, just a young graduate of the school, and even in a completely different direction.
                      5. +1
                        21 May 2019 17: 12
                        Quote: CentDo
                        it is unclear what is the basis of the belief in the truth of words

                        you have a strange approach - the opinion of an eyewitness does not mean anything ... bully do you have a time machine or crystal ball? Why do you think your opinion is more important than him? hi
                        Quote: CentDo
                        at that time he was no professional, just a young graduate of the school, and even in a completely different direction.

                        1) he was appointed to the post - i.e. really worked, for you he is not a pro ... bully
                        2) the shipbuilder is studying and parts of the ship - including and engines ... hi
                      6. +1
                        22 May 2019 09: 56
                        you have a strange approach - the opinion of an eyewitness does not mean anything ...

                        Have I written such a thing somewhere? Or do you think the opinion of any eyewitness, regardless of his knowledge, experience and banal honesty, should be taken on faith? The author of the article gives the opinions of other eyewitnesses, why do not you accept them on faith? Just because they don’t fit into your picture?
                        Why do you think your opinion is more important than his

                        Did I express my opinion about the speed that the Eagle could give? Where?
                        he was appointed to the post - i.e. really worked, for you he is not a pro

                        Once again: being appointed to a position and being a professional are two different things. You can repeat as much as you like that he really worked (as much as a whole year), but you cannot become a really cool engineer in such a short time. Therefore, the opinion of such people should be viewed through the prism of their youth and very limited experience. In short, he could be mistaken at times.
                      7. 0
                        22 May 2019 13: 58
                        Quote: CentDo
                        The author of the article gives the opinions of other eyewitnesses, why do not you accept them on faith?

                        where does faith come from? This author censors sources ...
                        Quote: CentDo
                        Again

                        see above
                        Quote: ser56
                        I don’t see the subject of discussion - the question of the definition of the word professional and its difference from the word a good specialist
      3. +2
        20 May 2019 11: 23
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And that's what I say, according to Kostenko. But there was a mass of other officers who negatively evaluated the speed of our high-speed ships.
        And further. Think nevertheless yourself - our EDBs were inferior to the Japanese in speed on the 1 node, even in terms of terms of reference. In fact turned out overloaded. Waving the ends through half the world. And met with the Japanese squadron, who completed repairs on the eve of the battle.
        Any other comments needed? :)

        Andrey is brilliant as always, I don't understand this skirmish at all, Rozhestvensky's squadron move was in any case lower, by 2-2,5 knots (or even more) in any case, in real battle conditions, coverage was almost inevitable, and love or not love for Rozhdestvensky is generally a strange category of reflections. You can talk about his mistakes as much as you like (After 100 years), but hardly any of the admirals could have done more then !!!!!! Yes, he could have thrown on *** figs of Nebogaty and the rest of the "OBOZ" and vomited, but he didn’t, Jessen wondered how much later, they hounded for Rurik, but in fact saved two cruisers and a thousand and a half lives. Everything is easy then, in the soft chairs of the Maritime Commission brains to people ******* to tear !!!!!
        1. 0
          20 May 2019 14: 41
          Quote: kapitan281271
          Andrei is brilliant as always

          Thank you, glad you liked it! hi
          Quote: kapitan281271
          I do not understand this squabble

          troll raid sir! soldier
  2. +5
    18 May 2019 18: 08
    with some correct maneuvering, speed superiority by only a couple of knots did not leave the slower side any chance to avoid “crossing the T”, (“sticks over T”)


    it seems to me that this is tactfully untrue

    the slow-moving squadron goes around a circle of a smaller radius, respectively, the difference in the lengths of the circles compensates for the difference in speeds
    1. +4
      18 May 2019 20: 53
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      it seems to me that this is tactfully untrue

      What is untrue? :))) The maneuvers of the English 1901-1903 are not true? Oh well:))))
      1. -1
        18 May 2019 20: 57
        Your knowledge of geometry for the 5 class is not true, forgive me, sir
        1. +5
          18 May 2019 21: 07
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Your knowledge of geometry for the 5 class is not true, forgive me, sir

          Did it ever occur to you that sea maneuvering is a bit more difficult for 5 class? :))) And you didn’t answer the question - British admirals, are they as ignorant as I think? :) )))
          And now let me ask you - is this how limited the intellect must be in order to consider everyone so much more stupid than himself?
          1. -6
            18 May 2019 21: 10
            is it how limited intelligence should be to consider everyone so stupid than yourself?


            are you talking about yourself sir? not?
            maybe solve the geometry problem for 5 class?
            1. +2
              18 May 2019 21: 22
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              are you talking about yourself sir? not?
              maybe solve the geometry problem for 5 class?

              From the answer about the British admirals you diligently dodge. Well, I'm not surprised.
              And now I want to tell you this. If you knew at least a little about the question you are currently arguing about, then you would know that it is an order of magnitude more difficult than a textbook for the 5 class.
              1. -6
                18 May 2019 21: 28
                draining counted negative
                1. +6
                  18 May 2019 21: 30
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  discharge is negative

                  No, my "friend" is not counted. You will merge below, in the answer about a simple column overtaking maneuver, which you decided to calculate using geometry for the 5th grade. do not get out
                  And there is no point in discussing cross-over with you - if you don’t understand the simple overtaking feature, where to argue about crossings. You need to learn from small
          2. +5
            18 May 2019 22: 31
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And now let me ask you - is this how limited the intellect must be in order to consider everyone so much more stupid than himself?

            The question needs to be rephrased to you - do you seriously think that you know better than a shipbuilding engineer (who worked with this ship for months), a flagship mechanic, a senior ship officer? Are you a time traveler? A brilliant mechanic? Great shipbuilder? Or a sofa strategist?
            1. +4
              19 May 2019 01: 26
              Quote: sevtrash
              The question must be rephrased to you - do you really think that you know better than a shipbuilding engineer?

              The question must be rephrased in this way - how many years do you need to make it clear to you that the shipbuilding engineer is confused in testimony, lies, and reports that one different speed for the same situation? :)
              1. 0
                19 May 2019 16: 35
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                The question should be rephrased as follows: how many years are needed,

                Namely, the question should sound - how many years do you need in order to understand that Kostenko has a completely different level than you:
                - he had a professional education - which is not and will not be with you;
                - he built ships about which you have a speculative impression;
                - he worked on this ship for the entire months-long campaign and participated in the battle on it - you weren’t close there;
                - together with 2TOE officers he repeatedly discussed the results and possible options for the battle - you do not have such an opportunity and never will;
                - he gave official testimonies, which included about 2 pages of speed information, testimonies that were evaluated by professionals in their field - who you are against them is an amateur with unmeasured aplomb;
                - He prepared an extensive report to the marine technical committee of the Admiralty, which was heard by the entire elite of the fleet.
                - for Kostenko, hundreds, thousands of specialists of the fleet of the Russian Empire stand behind his opinion, whose opinion was cumulated - and who is yours?
                I just don’t understand to what extent you can overestimate yourself, what degree of pride you have in order to consider what you know and understand better than Kostenko? And still have the courage / impudence to accuse him of lying? Something is wrong with you, it seems. wassat
                1. +2
                  19 May 2019 21: 12
                  Quote: sevtrash
                  Namely, the question should sound - how many years do you need in order to understand that Kostenko has a completely different level than you:

                  Of course, I do not lie, unlike him. So my level is really different.
                  1. -2
                    19 May 2019 22: 01
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Of course, I do not lie, unlike him. So my level is really different.

                    There are no words good The author, do you know that you have delusions of grandeur? Yes Or are you already familiar with this? wassat
                    1. +1
                      20 May 2019 08: 01
                      Quote: sevtrash
                      The author, do you know that you have delusions of grandeur?

                      Charming :))) Now the statement that a person does not lie - it turns out to be delusions of grandeur laughing
                      1. +3
                        20 May 2019 19: 04
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: sevtrash
                        The author, do you know that you have delusions of grandeur?

                        Charming :))) Now the statement that a person does not lie - it turns out to be delusions of grandeur laughing

                        Andrei, I’ve been on this resource for quite some time, but I’m sure that if there are more professional authors of articles, then you can count them on the fingers of one hand, imagine what kind of information you need to shovel, SYSTEMATIZE it, so that at least something to give out similar to your work, I ask you, well, do not enter into discussion with them (not with all but with many), they are also unable to create a tenth of your work. And to be honest, it’s better to come to me in the Stavropol Territory, we’ll meet for a while, barbecue cognac somo by myself, I have been reading your articles for a long time, I feel we are of the same blood !!!!
                  2. +1
                    20 May 2019 12: 16
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Of course, I do not lie, unlike him.

                    Very boldly, especially regarding the deceased ... request
                    1. -1
                      20 May 2019 14: 41
                      Quote: ser56
                      Very brave, especially with regard to the deceased ..

                      And rightly so, that is very sad :)
                      1. +1
                        20 May 2019 15: 13
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        And rightly so, that is very sad :)

                        from your point of view. no more ... the level of it and your knowledge is not comparable, therefore you are reckless in judgments ... however this is your copyright ... hi
                      2. 0
                        20 May 2019 15: 29
                        Quote: ser56
                        the level of it and your knowledge is not comparable

                        do not distort, it is not about knowledge, but about deceit :)
                      3. 0
                        21 May 2019 15: 26
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        but about lying :)

                        other data will come up (as after 1991) and it turns out that he didn’t lie ... you are very straightforward ...
          3. 0
            20 May 2019 16: 31
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            the slow-moving squadron goes around a circle of a smaller radius, respectively, the difference in the lengths of the circles compensates for the difference in speeds

            This is what it was now, I’m not a bad engineer at all (I have temples in geometry from school competitions somewhere), but I didn’t understand what the person wanted to say now if you have versions, if not difficult! !!!!
            1. +2
              20 May 2019 18: 56
              Quote: kapitan281271
              but I didn’t understand what the person wanted to say now, if you have versions translate, if not hard !!!!!

              in fact, everything is simple here - the idea is that if our squadron is slow-moving and we are given a wand over T, for example, going across our course from left to right, then we can turn it to the right. Then the enemy, to get us in the head, will have to keep to the left, turn around to intercept our new course. But we can turn right again. In the end, it turns out like this - we draw two circles, one inside the other. Our squadron is going around the inner circle, dodging the crossing T, and the enemy around the outside. The idea is that, since the length of the outer circumference is longer, I can prevent the enemy from escaping into my head, although it is more fast :))))
  3. +4
    18 May 2019 18: 10
    Since no type of military system saved the Russians from defeat, the idea of ​​the Russian commander was to ... not accept any system.


    Well do not advise to open Kingstones yourself lol
  4. +3
    18 May 2019 18: 17
    But, moving in two wake columns, Z.P. Rozhdestvensky could successfully fend off any of these options, because he could rebuild his forces in the front or wake very quickly.


    the impression that we are now about the Grand Fleet, who has been training for years lol

    the admiral, unable to calculate the speed of overtaking one of the columns for smooth rebuilding, is not able to organize any maneuvers at all a priori, because the middle school student does not correspond to mental development (I remember solving this problem in physics in the seventh grade when Newton and the mathematical apparatus of his laws passed : acceleration, etc.), but instead of ships I don’t remember what happened, like overtaking one train with another
    1. +4
      18 May 2019 20: 56
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      the impression that we are now about the Grand Fleet, who has been training for years

      Oddly enough, the squadron performed the corresponding maneuvers as it should
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      an admiral unable to calculate the overtaking speed of one of the columns for a smooth rebuild

      And who said that Rozhestvensky was incapable of this? You? In my opinion, this is not a problem of Rozhestvensky
      1. +4
        18 May 2019 20: 59
        And who said that Rozhdestvensky was incapable of this?


        Captain Baer, ​​who gave the command "stop the car"
        1. +1
          18 May 2019 21: 11
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Captain Baer, ​​who gave the command "stop the car"

          Andrew, and where does the rem? We get to it, of course. But if you reduce THIS to the geometry for the 5 class, then you obviously need to return to the first one. In your opinion, what, maneuvers, is it to draw a pencil on a piece of paper? laughing
          1. -2
            18 May 2019 21: 13
            In your opinion, what, maneuvers, is this a pencil on a piece of paper to draw? laughing


            as it were, without mastering the schools, it’s difficult, probably, to command a squadron. I don’t know, honestly, it didn’t happen, but I reasonably assume that the mental development of ZPR would not allow him to finish nine classes
            1. +5
              18 May 2019 21: 25
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              as if to say, without mastering the school is difficult, probably, to command a squadron.

              Andrei, you seriously don’t understand what nonsense you’re carrying now? :))))) What have you got into your 5-th class? :)))) You don’t understand that even the task of overtaking the column is far from 5 class? Do you even understand something in the movement of the ship at sea?
              Andrew, I ask a simple question. What will happen to me for now I will describe in full detail the full depth of your delusions? :)))
              1. +1
                18 May 2019 21: 29
                What will happen to me because I will now describe in full detail the whole depth of your errors? :)))


                say where to send french brandy - this is my standard condition)
                1. +2
                  18 May 2019 21: 35
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  say where to send french brandy - this is my standard condition)

                  OK, okay. I will try to describe today, the deadline is tomorrow until the evening.
                  1. 0
                    18 May 2019 21: 38
                    OK, okay. I will try to describe today, the deadline is tomorrow until the evening.


                    OK. Then not just cognac, but straight from the "Grand Champagne"
                    If it works out - I won’t be sorry, honestly
                    And then it’s boring to win cognacs all the time)
                    1. +3
                      19 May 2019 02: 43
                      Well, let's start by blessing.
                      Before us is a simple task - armadillos go in two parallel columns, and
                      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                      calculate the speed of overtaking one of the columns for a smooth rebuild

                      In fact, the question was initially set incorrectly - it is necessary to consider not the speed, but the time it takes to ensure that at a given speed, the right column will go into a position from which you can perform a smooth rebuilding. Well, God bless him, for here time and speed are interdependent variables.
                      To complete this calculation, we need to know:
                      1) The initial position is that is the position in Suvorov’s space relative to Oslyab (or vice versa, it’s the same thing) at the moment which we take as the 0 point in the calculations. For example, Oslabya ​​is strictly on the traverse of Suvorov's 8 cable from him and goes along a parallel course.
                      2) Average speed of the right and left columns. By subtracting one from the other, we can find out the rate of divergence. Example - the left column is 9 nodes, the right one is 11, total node divergence speed 2
                      3) We need to know the length of the right column, which will overtake the left. Suppose this is a 1 mile.
                      4) Next, we need to know the time we need to execute the rebuild maneuver. The right column will have to be rotated sequentially or all of a sudden, in order to overcome the 8 cable separating columns, lie down, and gain the speed lost during the rebuild at least to the 9 nodes.
                      In other words, while the columns are parallel and go to NO23 with speeds 9 and 11, the nodes right on the 2 node overtake the left one, but as soon as the right column turns everything suddenly or sequentially to go to the left, then the speed of its shift to NO23 will decrease depending on from the severity of the course. For example, if you turn everything suddenly to 90 hail, then the right column will not move to NO23 for a while and the speed of divergence will be 9 nodes while the right column is moving perpendicular to the course - only now the left column overtakes the right one.
                      5) We should also know the average displacement speed of the squadron on NO23 during the execution of the rebuild maneuver.
                      6) And then, when we all know, the task really takes on the character of 5 class geometry - if we, for example, know that rebuilding the 8 cable to the left with the overhead to 9 knots on the course will take us 10 minutes, and if the average speed during the maneuver relative to the direction of movement of the right column is, say, 6 nodes, then during the rebuilding the right column will shift by a mile. The left column for the same time will pass 1,5 miles. The speed of convergence at the time of execution of the maneuver will be 0,5 miles, that is, the maneuver can be started when the end battleship of the right column overtakes oslyaby, roughly, 0,7 miles (to have a gap between the ships). This means that given the length of the column in the 1 mile, the maneuver can be started when Suvorov overtakes the 1,7 miles. Here it means, of course, not the distance directly between the ships, but the distance between the parallel lines formed by their crossbars.
                      Well, since we have a node deviation rate of 2, that is, 2 miles per hour, then 0 / 1,7 * 2 = 60 minute should pass from the 51 point (Suvorov on the beam of Oslyabi).
                      1. +5
                        19 May 2019 02: 43
                        It seems to be all super, but ...
                        So we need to know
                        1) The initial position of Oslyaby and Suvorov. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. Simply because distance measuring instruments are inaccurate and give a rather large error. That is, we know the bearing to Oslyabya for sure, but the distance to it - alas, no
                        2) The average speed of the left column. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. We do not know the speed of the left column. And why? Yes, because the speed is determined very simply - they said to keep 9 knots, the mechanic gives the number of revolutions, which Roughly corresponds to the speed of 9 knots. And the real speed of the ship will depend on its current mass and waves, and all these dependencies are non-linear, and no one has accurately measured them. Therefore, when it is said “to keep the speed of the column at 9 knots”, it was done like this - the lead ship gave the number of revolutions, which seemed to correspond to 9 knots, and the rest of the ships adjusted to it. That is, the right column will adjust to Oslyabya. And her real speed can be 8,5 and 9,5 knots, it all depends on the specific design of the ship.
                        3) We also need to know the average speed of the right column. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. And it's not just that we talked about the right column, and that Suvorov raising "follow 11 knots" can go faster or slower. There is also the fact that initially both columns follow at a speed of 9 knots. And the right one needs to accelerate to 11, but how long will she do it? Again, it is unknown, because the acceleration rate will again depend on the sea and the load of the ship.
                        4) We need to know the length of the right column. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. And all because it was smooth on paper - to set the speed of all EBRs of the right column to 11 knots and the interval between EBRs, say, 2 cables. But in practice, both will have to be done by eye, so that the length of the column will “breathe”.
                        5) The time to perform the rebuilding maneuver ... it is generally impossible to calculate it at all. Because we have speed, let's say 11 knots, but when changing lanes depending on the turn angle, EDBs will lose this speed, and then, gradually, increase again, but these parameters are strictly individual and depend ... correctly on overload and on excitement, but also - from the individual characteristics of each armadillo. Because, although they were of the same type, their circulation radius differed radically, when turning sequentially, the deviations from the turning point reached cable length and more in one direction or the other.
                        6) We don’t know the average speed during the rebuilding maneuver, for the same reason as paragraph 5.
                        And this is how it turns out that yes, if we knew all the initial ones, then the 5 class, but we only know that we know NOTHING. And no mathematical calculations are rolled out here, and only the experience of the naval commander who thinks is working here — that with such agitation and speed, the rebuilding will take about that much, which means you need to perform it approximately when the end ship is in so many cables from Oslyab. And the naval commander will begin a maneuver when he sees that the “Eagle” in relation to the “Oslyab” has taken the position it needs to perform the maneuver. But just calculate the maneuver so that, standing with a stopwatch, wave the commanding hand and say - it's time! - it is impossible.
                        Now - it is possible, of course, but it is - now, and not in the era of RNW
                      2. -1
                        19 May 2019 05: 47
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        It seems to be all super, but ...
                        So we need to know
                        1) The initial position of Oslyaby and Suvorov. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. Simply because distance measuring instruments are inaccurate and give a rather large error. That is, we know the bearing to Oslyabya for sure, but the distance to it - alas, no
                        2) The average speed of the left column. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. We do not know the speed of the left column. And why? Yes, because the speed is determined very simply - they said to keep 9 knots, the mechanic gives the number of revolutions, which Roughly corresponds to the speed of 9 knots. And the real speed of the ship will depend on its current mass and waves, and all these dependencies are non-linear, and no one has accurately measured them. Therefore, when it is said “to keep the speed of the column at 9 knots”, it was done like this - the lead ship gave the number of revolutions, which seemed to correspond to 9 knots, and the rest of the ships adjusted to it. That is, the right column will adjust to Oslyabya. And her real speed can be 8,5 and 9,5 knots, it all depends on the specific design of the ship.
                        3) We also need to know the average speed of the right column. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. And it's not just that we talked about the right column, and that Suvorov raising "follow 11 knots" can go faster or slower. There is also the fact that initially both columns follow at a speed of 9 knots. And the right one needs to accelerate to 11, but how long will she do it? Again, it is unknown, because the acceleration rate will again depend on the sea and the load of the ship.
                        4) We need to know the length of the right column. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. And all because it was smooth on paper - to set the speed of all EBRs of the right column to 11 knots and the interval between EBRs, say, 2 cables. But in practice, both will have to be done by eye, so that the length of the column will “breathe”.
                        5) The time to perform the rebuilding maneuver ... it is generally impossible to calculate it at all. Because we have speed, let's say 11 knots, but when changing lanes depending on the turn angle, EDBs will lose this speed, and then, gradually, increase again, but these parameters are strictly individual and depend ... correctly on overload and on excitement, but also - from the individual characteristics of each armadillo. Because, although they were of the same type, their circulation radius differed radically, when turning sequentially, the deviations from the turning point reached cable length and more in one direction or the other.
                        6) We don’t know the average speed during the rebuilding maneuver, for the same reason as paragraph 5.
                        And this is how it turns out that yes, if we knew all the initial ones, then the 5 class, but we only know that we know NOTHING. And no mathematical calculations are rolled out here, and only the experience of the naval commander who thinks is working here — that with such agitation and speed, the rebuilding will take about that much, which means you need to perform it approximately when the end ship is in so many cables from Oslyab. And the naval commander will begin a maneuver when he sees that the “Eagle” in relation to the “Oslyab” has taken the position it needs to perform the maneuver. But just calculate the maneuver so that, standing with a stopwatch, wave the commanding hand and say - it's time! - it is impossible.
                        Now - it is possible, of course, but it is - now, and not in the era of RNW

                        Nonsense is complete. A normal naval commander simply takes a reserve in speed and distance, and he does not take a 9-node transport with him to battle and knows that the error in measuring the distance by 8 kb, then the rangefinder, is a few tens of meters. Well, an abnormal naval commander purges a pure battle.
                      3. IBP
                        -1
                        19 May 2019 08: 03
                        And the author of the article is trying to make out the mediocre actions of the admiral and present them to us as the only possible ones. RZP was a mediocre admiral, and this is the only and reliable fact, he didn’t even have enough spirit after the defeat to put a bullet into his head as a decent officer. And then he tried to justify his mediocrity on the commissions.
                      4. 0
                        19 May 2019 15: 08
                        how do you have enough conscience and honor to bark at the man who is the ONLY in the whole fleet and volunteered to lead the squadron, and led it into battle? And this --- despite all the betrayal and resistance?

                        You are an absolutely dishonorable and dishonorable young man, Yura. Perhaps the day will come that you will grow up. And maybe then you will be ashamed of what you write here.
                      5. -2
                        19 May 2019 15: 35
                        and led her into battle?


                        he led her on уthe battle
                        but had to lead into battle

                        understand this simple truth and stop talking nonsense (in this direction, at least)
                      6. -2
                        19 May 2019 20: 03
                        I asked you to ignore me, and not to bother kissing me?
                        Requested.

                        Once again, to inform you that as an interlocutor you are completely not interesting to me?
                        I inform you: you are not interesting to me.
                      7. -1
                        19 May 2019 23: 35
                        I’ll answer again - write nonsense, if you please receive)
                      8. +2
                        20 May 2019 11: 23
                        You know, I’m a patient person, but even you and your style of presentation and the number of empty comments begin to bore me. The feeling that the topic is clogged with empty empty straw. Get on already. Do you love Kostenko - kiss his picture at least a hundred times a day. Do not agree with the article - write your own, but only exactly the same detailed and balanced.
                      9. +1
                        23 May 2019 17: 15
                        By the way, I thought, maybe Rozhdestvensky did NOT give up command because of, delicately, cowardice. Or he, there, had a mortgage, so he was afraid to object to the tsar, or who appointed him there, so as not to be kicked out, and there, you see, it will resolve ... It did not resolve. Hence his breakdowns with beating muzzles of sailors, and binoculars on their heads. How am I so goofy? And you won’t turn it on ...
                      10. 0
                        24 May 2019 18: 17
                        Quote: Arthur 85
                        maybe Rozhdestvensky didn’t give up command because of, delicately, cowardice

                        When the squadron left Port Arthur was still holding, there were chances for success. Then nothing depended on it
                      11. -2
                        21 May 2019 11: 03
                        Quote: AK64
                        how do you have enough conscience and honor to bark at the man who is the ONLY in the whole fleet and volunteered to lead the squadron, and led it into battle? And this --- despite all the betrayal and resistance?

                        You are an absolutely dishonorable and dishonorable young man, Yura. Perhaps the day will come that you will grow up. And maybe then you will be ashamed of what you write here.

                        It would be better if he refused, - you cannot fight at sea normally, - stay at home.
                        Your transition to a discussion of my personality is not motivated in any way, and, therefore, is a delirium of a gray gelding.
                        I am ashamed of only one thing - that screwed up in full ZPR - my compatriot.
                      12. +1
                        24 May 2019 18: 19
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        It would be better if he refused, - you cannot fight at sea normally, - stay at home.

                        The problem is that there were no more applicants. By the way, how can a person know in advance whether he can fight well or not? He got experience under Port Arthur and Rozhestvensky where to get it?
                      13. +1
                        24 May 2019 18: 12
                        Quote: IBP
                        after the defeat, he didn’t even have the spirit to launch a bullet into his head as a decent officer

                        What moon did you fall from? List me Soviet military leaders, for example, who shot themselves in the forehead after losing battles and boilers. Well, you can also list foreign naval commanders. And, well, I remember the commander of "Count Spee"
                      14. 0
                        24 May 2019 18: 05
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Well, an abnormal naval commander purges a pure battle.

                        You would be in Suvorov’s cabin
                      15. 0
                        28 May 2019 09: 19
                        Quote: Pilat2009
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Well, an abnormal naval commander purges a pure battle.

                        You would be in Suvorov’s cabin

                        Another lunatic who imagines that I was herding pigs with him.
                      16. 0
                        19 May 2019 12: 14
                        1) The initial position of Oslyaby and Suvorov. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. Simply because distance measuring instruments are inaccurate and give a rather large error. That is, we know the bearing to Oslyabya for sure, but the distance to it - alas, no


                        I hesitate to ask, have you ever overtaken on the track on a car? if so, why write deliberate nonsense, about the fact that this maneuver can not be calculated?

                        for a person who drives a little car, the argument that an accurate calculation of overtaking is impossible without an accurate measurement of distances is nonsense, since errors are even by eye small and are compensated by the selection of the speed mode during the maneuver

                        Rozhdestvensky did as he bought the rights (deleted by the site), severely cutting the left column,

                        Threat. he would definitely not finish a driving school laughing
                      17. +4
                        19 May 2019 15: 10
                        I hesitate to ask, have you ever overtaken on the track on a car? if so, why write deliberate nonsense, about the fact that this maneuver can not be calculated?


                        I thought so! I thought that he would maneuver on the car will certainly !!!
                      18. -2
                        19 May 2019 15: 26
                        I thought so! I thought that he would maneuver on the car will certainly !!!


                        What's the problem? or is it the only thing that you can say in defense of ZPR? tongue
                        Threat. something long you carry the cherished proof feel
                      19. +2
                        19 May 2019 20: 40
                        The problem is that you do not understand the difference between driving a car and driving a convoy of ships. Just imagine that you are not overtaking on your car, but on, say, a Cossack with a trailer (actually three trailers) and all this on ice. Then the task will at least remotely come close to the maneuver that ZPR needed to do.
                      20. -1
                        19 May 2019 22: 42
                        The problem is that you do not read the comments of opponents:

                        Are you mocking This is a task from grade 7.
                        The length of the "Suvorov" column + double step between materials = 14 kb
                        Distance between columns / speed of "Suvorov"
                        about 10 kb / 110 kb per hour = 0,1 hour, then 0,1 hour x "Oslyabya" speed = 9 kb


                        Will there be substantive objections?
                      21. 0
                        20 May 2019 09: 22
                        Essentially - your example (even with a car, even with a task) does not reflect a hundredth part of the difficulties in controlling a ship. And the problem, in fact, is precisely that.
                        I correctly understood that you didn’t have to drive with a trailer, and even on ice?
                      22. 0
                        20 May 2019 11: 05
                        I correctly understood that you didn’t have to drive with a trailer, and even on ice?


                        Yes, right

                        It does not reflect the hundredth part of the difficulties in controlling the ship. And the problem, in fact, is precisely that.


                        I understand about the difficulties, but, nevertheless, I will tell you about simple things (I repeat):

                        what data? the distance to the "Oslyabya" is plus or minus 100 meters (someone banned the rangefinder? - we use the Luzhol-Myakishev angle meter), the speed of the "Oslyabya" is a plus or minus a quarter of a knot approximately (someone banned the log? -So change the bearing "Oslyabya" with a goniometer), there is no bearing to "Oslyabya" - again, we take the bearing "Oslyabya"
                        what else is missing? tell me a fool
                        he didn’t prove anything, and for leveling the consequence of errors in reckoning there is a simple rule of rebuilding: at least two steps of the matelots should be put on the safety of the maneuver


                        colleagues are not able to say anything specific about specific difficulties:
                        measure the distance (I gave the biS rangefinder errors to them, since they don't know)
                        measure the bearing with an angle meter
                        measure your speed according to the system: lag + revolutions
                        measure the speed of an adjacent column according to the system own speed + bearing change

                        and general reasoning on the topic of "errors" is bullshit: for them, a distance margin of at least two steps between matelots is laid (for errors just) and the rule of reducing the gap by increasing the speed of the overtaken matelote
                      23. 0
                        20 May 2019 13: 47
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Yes, right

                        Here are the goodies.
                      24. +2
                        19 May 2019 21: 16
                        And what else to take the troll? Then he squealed that rebuilding was a task for the 5 class, now that they were pressed - for him it was overtaking :))))
                      25. -3
                        19 May 2019 22: 44
                        Hey, smartass? here squeals only the Great namesake, who does not understand the elementary:

                        Are you mocking This is a task from grade 7.
                        The length of the "Suvorov" column + double step between materials = 14 kb
                        Distance between columns / speed of "Suvorov"
                        about 10 kb / 110 kb per hour = 0,1 hour, then 0,1 hour x "Oslyabya" speed = 9 kb


                        Will there be substantive objections?
                      26. +2
                        20 May 2019 07: 38
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Will there be substantive objections?

                        They were already there, you merged and squealed about autobugs. Cognac where? :)))
                      27. 0
                        20 May 2019 07: 47
                        Where is the cognac? :)))


                        It, of course, is not a problem) but let's analyze your comment in detail:

                        1) The initial position of Oslyaby and Suvorov. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. Simply because distance measuring instruments are inaccurate and give a rather large error. That is, we know the bearing to Oslyabya for sure, but the distance to it - alas, no


                        the distance to "Oslyabya" is plus or minus 100 meters (someone banned the rangefinder? - we use the Luzhol-Myakishev goniometer)

                        2) The average speed of the left column. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. We do not know the speed of the left column.
                        3) We also need to know the average speed of the right column. Do we know her?


                        the speed of "Oslyabya" is a plus or minus a quarter of a knot approximately (someone banned the lag? we count our speed and again change the bearing of "Oslyabya" with an angle meter)

                        4) We need to know the length of the right column. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no.


                        To mitigate the consequences of calculating errors, there is a simple rule of rebuilding: at least two steps of the matelots should be placed on the safety of the maneuver

                        Threat. for such a decision as I see about two columns maximum Rullet from Feng Bois Champagne, but had fun)
                      28. 0
                        20 May 2019 07: 53
                        They already were, you merged and screeched about auto overtaking.


                        let's understand in detail:

                        as I understand it, the 4.5-foot rangefinder of the Barra-Stroda gave an error of 6000 for 200 yards, for an 8000 - 600 and for an 10000 - 1200.

                        Well, sir, tell us about the difficulty of determining the distance to "Oslyabya", to which there were about 10 cables?
                      29. +1
                        20 May 2019 08: 30
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        the distance to "Oslyabya" is plus or minus 100 meters

                        Read the views of the squadron officers at their leisure, who reported the distance from 8 to 20 cable laughing Especially - those who used the technical means to measure this distance laughing
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        the speed of "Oslyabya" is a plus or minus a quarter of a knot approximately (someone banned the lag? we count our speed and again change the bearing of "Oslyabya" with an angle meter)

                        Lag was not used in such cases. And taking into account the impossibility of accurately determining the distance to Oslaby at the moment when the right column develops 11 nodes, the accuracy of calculations will be lower than the baseboard - offhand, 7% of the discrepancy rate for each erroneous 100 m distance, even if you start the measurements from the traverse.
                        Andrey, merged so merged, do not flutter already, "mathematician" You are our
                      30. -2
                        20 May 2019 08: 48
                        Read at your leisure the opinions of squadron officers who reported a distance of 8 to 20 cable laughing. Especially - those who used technical means to measure this laughing distance.


                        read at your leisure about the accuracy of measuring the rangefinder, this time
                        look at the time of the ZPR maneuver in reality and you will understand how much distance there really was, these are two, I still hope to find the true solution (I’m most interested) and I’m ready to convert Rulle to Lautrec back)

                        The lag was not used in such cases.

                        belay
                        I think lag is used constantly)
                        Well. if he banned you, then consider the speed of revolutions

                        accuracy of calculations will be lower than the plinth

                        laughing
                        since it is necessary to take into account the relative speeds, then here are two steps between the materials for the maneuver margin + the rule for accepting errors and rounding in spite of the maneuver (this means that when determining the speed of the Oslyabya from 9,0 to 9,25 knots, the maneuver is based on 9,25 knots, for example, this is the time
                        a safe maneuver would be overtaking by 25 cables, changing lanes all of a sudden north-west, reducing the distance and changing lanes all of a sudden northeast with a decrease in speed to level the formation / increase the speed of Oslyabya when leveling the formation (that is, a changeover with a gap that reduces the rear , not front), these are two
                      31. +1
                        20 May 2019 12: 21
                        "ro rangefinder measurement accuracy"
                        still an error ... hi the author has a problem with this - he studied neither metrology, nor tolerances and landing ... request
                      32. 0
                        20 May 2019 14: 44
                        Quote: ser56
                        the author has a problem with this - he did not study metrology, tolerances or landings.

                        But he studied REAL measurement accuracy :)
                      33. 0
                        20 May 2019 15: 19
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        But he studied REAL measurement accuracy :)

                        so, for understanding ... "Measurement accuracy is a characteristic of the measurement quality, reflecting the proximity to zero of the error of its result. The measurement accuracy is a qualitative value. High measurement accuracy corresponds to small errors and vice versa." hi
                      34. 0
                        20 May 2019 15: 27
                        Quote: ser56
                        so, for understanding ...

                        Thank you, Captain Obviousness :)))) It is a pity that your textbook contains only definitions, without explaining the reasons why in some cases practical errors in measuring with the device can exceed their passport values ​​by orders of magnitude.
                      35. -1
                        21 May 2019 15: 16
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        without explaining the reasons why, in some cases, practical errors

                        1) in any science there are terms hi
                        2) the causes of additional errors in my textbook are described, in short - growth by an order of magnitude indicates incorrect measurements, i.e. either the device is defective or the user is not competent bully
                      36. 0
                        20 May 2019 15: 26
                        If the definition is not clear - there is no real accuracy - there is a real measurement error ... feel
                      37. 0
                        20 May 2019 18: 58
                        Quote: ser56
                        If the definition is not clear - there is no real accuracy

                        If the answer is not clear - the definition given by you is not the only definition of measurement accuracy. For example, there is such
                        "Accuracy of measurements is a characteristic of the quality of measurements, reflecting the degree of closeness of the measurement results to the true value of the measured quantity"

                        And, you see, I am not obliged to define your textbook.
                      38. -1
                        21 May 2019 15: 19
                        my definition is more accurate, the true value of the measured quantity does not exist hi
                        if interested in metrology, I can throw off the course of lectures ... feel
                      39. 0
                        19 May 2019 21: 15
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I hesitate to ask, have you ever overtaken on the track on a car? if so, why write deliberate nonsense, about the fact that this maneuver can not be calculated?

                        And now - plums counted :))))
                        On the track, no one counts the speed, but does everything by eye and by driving experience. This is exactly what the naval commanders do. Accordingly, it finally dawned on you how far your remarks about "geometry of the 5th grade" are far from reality :)
                      40. -2
                        19 May 2019 22: 47
                        On the track, no one considers speed, but does everything by eye and from driving experience. This is exactly what naval commanders do.


                        Naval commanders do this if their mental development does not allow solving the physics problem for the 7th grade with overtaking one train to another. bully
                        Clearly, they found a soul mate in the person of ZPR)

                        Oh yes, you have not yet mastered the 5th class about moving along two circles of different radii.
                        Damn, even managed to mix up textbooks and tasks)
                      41. +2
                        19 May 2019 16: 30
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yes, because speed is determined very simply - they said to keep 9 knots, the mechanic gives the number of revolutions, which approximately corresponds to a speed of 9 knots. And the actual speed of the ship will depend on its current mass and excitement, and all these dependencies are non-linear, and no one has measured them exactly. Therefore, when it says “the convoy to keep the speed of 9 knots”, it was like this - the lead ship gave a speed that seemed to correspond to 9 knots, and the rest of the ships adjusted to it. That is, the right column will adjust to Oslyabyu. And its real speed can be 8,5 and 9,5 knots, then everything depends on the specific design of the ship.

                        The mechanic is not able to pick up the speed on the testimony of the lag?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        The starting position Oslyaby and Suvorov. Do we know her? Alas, the answer is no. Just because distance measuring instruments are inaccurate and give a slight error.

                        Those. rangefinders designed to control fire at a distance of dozens of cable, will give a serious error in measuring the distance to the ship, going strictly parallel to the course at a distance of several cable?
                      42. -1
                        19 May 2019 12: 24
                        51 minute


                        that is, ZPR would just stupidly throw his squad out of the battle for an hour tongue
                        not getting any benefits
                      43. +2
                        19 May 2019 21: 18
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        oh there is a bsd just stupidly would have thrown out his squad for an hour from the battlefield

                        Brad :)))) Because this did not happen in reality and could not happen in any case - we understand the situation of overtaking, and so the CRA could easily order the right column to reduce speed.
                        You have merged, and now cling to numbers, although Russian was written in white
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        All figures are conditional - an example for the sake of, and not an exact calculation for.
                      44. -2
                        19 May 2019 22: 36
                        and so ZPR could easily order the right column to slow down.

                        it if he was smart) what did not order then?
                        Your calculations show that he was far from being a smart person
                        Ushakov would advance the right column ahead of time bully
                      45. +2
                        19 May 2019 22: 52
                        Ushakov would push forward the right column in advance bully

                        Very thick. Poduli, so send cognac, and do not try to trick the author wink
                        By the way, car overtaking on public roads is a bad analogy, because a normal driver overtakes with multiple margins in speed and distance, and in a battle the result depends on the speed of lane and therefore there is no possibility for repeated reinsurance. Much more appropriate would be a comparison with overtaking in circuit racing. Here it’s close to navigating, a solid millimeter on intuition.
                      46. 0
                        19 May 2019 23: 06
                        Very thick. Blow it up, send cognac


                        didn't understand, sir. the task was to geometrically prove the assertion about the guaranteed "crossing-T" due to the speed advantage by 2 nodes (task for grade 5)

                        The great namesake decided that he was already an adult and began to solve the problem for grade 7 about the speed of two columns, why? this idiot understands that at a speed of 11 knots this one will take 50-70 minutes or slow down the left column, well, or it was necessary to put forward the right a la Ushakov, he himself proved that

                        that is, ZPR would just stupidly throw his squad out of tongue battle for an hour
                        not getting any benefits


                        Threat. for such a decision as I see about two columns maximum Rullet from Feng Bois Champagne, but had fun)

                        once again, therefore, we return to the dispute:
                        do not try to get off the topic of answering a simple question: how did the British maneuvers of 1901-1903 prove that superiority in squadron speed by 2 knots is guaranteed by "crossing-T" against a correctly maneuvering enemy


                        since the example of July 28.07.1904, XNUMX showed that this is not so
                      47. +1
                        19 May 2019 23: 35
                        You know, I personally know geometry for the 5th grade and remember the ball at 2+, and when the last time I practiced in navigating, I almost drowned with my family. But he is quite able to understand the essence of the dispute.
                        You argued that the task of rebuilding Rozhestvensky’s ships from two columns into one was solved using the knowledge of a fifth grade student, and stupid Rozhdestvensky could not solve this problem, was he?
                        After that, the respected author convincingly proved that to solve this problem by a schoolboy, there is a whole series of necessary data that could not be obtained in real time then. And Mr. Rozhestvensky, like all admirals of those years, solved this problem not in a notebook, on a tablet or in virtual reality, but by a strictly empirical method, by pretending the penis to the olfactory.
                        Which, in my opinion, is very convincingly proved by the fact that geometry in the framework of the fifth grade of high school or in any other volume in matters of controlling the squadron of armadillos is useless, or maybe even harmful, because it can useless to take the finger that at the admiral is slobbery and stuck out into the viewing gap. laughing
                      48. -2
                        19 May 2019 23: 46
                        You argued that the task of rebuilding Rozhestvensky’s ships from two columns into one was solved using the knowledge of a fifth grade student, and stupid Rozhdestvensky could not solve this problem, was he?


                        yes, and immediately wrote:
                        Are you mocking This is a task from grade 7.
                        The length of the "Suvorov" column + double step between materials = 14 kb
                        Distance between columns / speed of "Suvorov"
                        about 10 kb / 110 kb per hour = 0,1 hour, then 0,1 hour x "Oslyabya" speed = 9 kb


                        with the help of geometry for the 5th grade, the author still has not solved the problem of movement along circles of different radius in an attempt to make "crossing-T" winked

                        After that, the respected author convincingly proved that to solve this problem by a schoolboy, there is a whole series of necessary data that could not be obtained in real time then.

                        belay
                        what data? the distance to the "Oslyabya" is plus or minus 100 meters (someone banned the rangefinder? - we use the Luzhol-Myakishev angle meter), the speed of the "Oslyabya" is a plus or minus a quarter of a knot approximately (someone banned the log? -So change the bearing "Oslyabya" with a goniometer), there is no bearing to "Oslyabya" - again, we take the bearing "Oslyabya"
                        what else is missing? tell me a fool
                        he didn’t prove anything, and for leveling the consequence of errors in reckoning there is a simple rule of rebuilding: at least two steps of the matelots should be put on the safety of the maneuver

                        Mr. Rozhestvensky ... this problem was solved not in a notebook, on a tablet or in virtual reality, but by a strictly empirical method, by pretending the genitals to the olfactory.

                        I do not argue. Therefore, he blew the debut with a bang. bully
                      49. +2
                        20 May 2019 07: 57
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        with the help of geometry for the 5th grade, the author still has not solved the problem of movement along circles of different radius in an attempt to make "crossing-T"

                        And I'm not going to. Andrey, I asked a specific question - what will happen to me if I explain how stupid you look, teaching admirals how they need to manage a squadron, based on the geometry textbook for the 5th grade. You promised me cognac. I was wasting my time explaining, so what? There is no cognac, there is not even an acknowledgment of your wrongness, but there is "And the author has not yet solved the problem in circles of different radius."
                        It is easy for me to solve it, but you have proven to be a completely inadequate opponent who is not responsible for his words. Why should I spend time on you? You are not worth it. And I’ll better save the story of crossing over for a separate article.
                      50. -3
                        20 May 2019 08: 03
                        I asked a specific question


                        here is my question:
                        what data? the distance to the "Oslyabya" is plus or minus 100 meters (someone banned the rangefinder? - we use the Luzhol-Myakishev angle meter), the speed of the "Oslyabya" is a plus or minus a quarter of a knot approximately (someone banned the log? -So change the bearing "Oslyabya" with a goniometer), there is no bearing to "Oslyabya" - again, we take the bearing "Oslyabya"
                        what else is missing? tell me a fool
                        he didn’t prove anything, and for leveling the consequence of errors in reckoning there is a simple rule of rebuilding: at least two steps of the matelots should be put on the safety of the maneuver


                        instead of answering it, enchanting nonsense about the inability to use the range finder due to its error
                        You have been provided with data on the errors of rangefinders. Gauge data needed?

                        Instead of answering an elementary question - then rudeness, then nagging)

                        Therefore, I repeat again:

                        here is my question:
                        what data? the distance to the "Oslyabya" is plus or minus 100 meters (someone banned the rangefinder? - we use the Luzhol-Myakishev angle meter), the speed of the "Oslyabya" is a plus or minus a quarter of a knot approximately (someone banned the log? -So change the bearing "Oslyabya" with a goniometer), there is no bearing to "Oslyabya" - again, we take the bearing "Oslyabya"
                        what else is missing? tell me a fool
                        he didn’t prove anything, and for leveling the consequence of errors in reckoning there is a simple rule of rebuilding: at least two steps of the matelots should be put on the safety of the maneuver


                        Answer cocretica will we?
                      51. -1
                        19 May 2019 23: 58
                        But he is quite able to understand the essence of the dispute.


                        It seems to me that the essence of the argument is that the Great namesake states the following:
                        1. Togo had superiority over ZPR in the course of the order of 3 knots (16 versus 13)
                        2. There is irrefutable evidence that plus 2 nodes is already enough to always put "crossing-T"
                        3.On the basis of paragraph 1 and paragraph 2, the second TOE could only passively suffer

                        I answered him:
                        1. Borodinsky and "Oslyabya" gave at least 15, the rest of the squadron, most likely, at least 13,5, and maybe all 14 could be tried
                        2.1.His references to the maneuvers of 1901-1903 as such evidence are not very correct, tactfully speaking, since in 2 cases this was not worked out there, and 3 case is uncountable
                        2.2.My link to the battle on July 28.07.1904, 3, where Togo, having plus XNUMX nodes to the "crossing-T", was not even close knocks out all the ground from under his feet
                        2.3. An example of squadron maneuvering, when it was led by "Alexander 3" shows that even at 9 knots it was possible to break away from the "crossing-T", knock down the aiming, and even break the battle, trying to break through astern, which knocks out all the soil from under your feet, one more time
                        3. The dispute about the rebuilding of the two columns makes sense only within the framework of my statement that the ZPR is a dumb nut and does not refer to the general topic of discussion
                      52. +1
                        24 May 2019 18: 26
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        trying to break through the stern, which knocks all the soil from under him

                        As far as I know, he didn’t succeed
                      53. -1
                        24 May 2019 19: 13
                        2.3. An example of a squadron maneuvering, when it was led by "Alexander 3" shows that even at 9 knots it was possible to break away from the "crossing-T",

                        Yes
                        shoot down the tip

                        Yes
                        and even break the battle, trying to break through the stern, which knocks all the soil from under him, once again

                        only here
                        As far as I know, he didn’t succeed


                        but the fact that "Alexander 3" in fact led the squadron is incomparably better than ZPR = 100500% IMHO
            2. +2
              19 May 2019 00: 05
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              mental development of ZPR would not allow him to finish nine classes

              Let me ask you, Maritime Corps + Mikhailovsky Academy require significantly less mental development than 9 classes?
              1. +5
                19 May 2019 09: 28
                You understand what kind of thing is happening in this discussion ... The fact is that in Soviet mythology it is customary to consider Admiral Rozhdestvensky to blame for everything.
                In general, the level of let's say so, the veracity of Soviet historical science, I think you can imagine. There is no reason to believe that in this case she suddenly found herself closer to historical truth, blaming Rozhdestvensky.
                And here we are dealing with modern adherents of everything socialist, including, of course, the version of history. These citizens will, in any way available to them, fiercely defend the "truthfulness" of strictly defined conclusions. No arguments. calculations. references to historical sources will not help here. Their ideological leaders have already explained everything to them. Now their task is by all means. relying on the existing education to prove. that they are right.
                Of course, there is no question of any truth.
                Just an ideological struggle, as is customary without a hint of compromise, and other human qualities.
                Once again I am convinced that many knowledge does not make the savage civilized.
                The heirs of those who "are shovels instead of hands, and a fiery motor instead of a heart."
                It's a shame only that they did not learn anything.


                Many thanks to the author of the article for the work done.
                1. +2
                  19 May 2019 10: 12
                  Well, yes, it is the same summology that lost the naval battles of the RJV, Tsushima, Chemulpo, and the Yellow Sea. And the royal admirals and officers were almost the geniuses of naval warfare.
                  1. +5
                    19 May 2019 10: 16
                    Of course not.
                    Common mythology simply draws conclusions convenient for her from these losses, And its modern adherents fiercely defend all this.
                    They do not fight for the establishment of truth, no. And for the victory of their own joint mythology.
                    And it is very obvious, these ears stick out from any topic, the discussion of which is prohibited by general mythology.
                    1. +1
                      21 May 2019 09: 18
                      Quote: Thunderbringer
                      Of course not.
                      Common mythology simply draws conclusions convenient for her from these losses, And its modern adherents fiercely defend all this.
                      They do not fight for the establishment of truth, no. And for the victory of their own joint mythology.
                      And it is very obvious, these ears stick out from any topic, the discussion of which is prohibited by general mythology.

                      And what conclusions are inconvenient to the physiology? Did reptilians with Nubiru help the Japanese?
                  2. +1
                    24 May 2019 18: 29
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    Chemulpo

                    There are options for victory? You can read the book Varyag the winner
                    1. -1
                      28 May 2019 09: 20
                      Quote: Pilat2009
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      Chemulpo

                      There are options for victory? You can read the book Varyag the winner

                      So read, who's stopping you?
                2. -1
                  19 May 2019 12: 12
                  The fact is that in Soviet mythology it is customary to consider Admiral Rozhdestvensky to blame for everything.


                  belay lol

                  In the Soviet Union they wrote about the Tsushima battle, proceeding from this quote from Lenin:

                  "The Great Armada - just as huge, just as cumbersome, ridiculous, powerless, monstrous as the entire Russian Empire, - set off on its way, spending enormous money ... Now the last bet has been beaten. Everyone expected this, but no one thought, so that the defeat of the Russian fleet would turn out to be such a merciless defeat ... The autocracy precisely in an adventurous manner threw the people into an absurd and shameful war. It now faces a deserved end. The war exposed all its ulcers, revealed all its rottenness ... "
              2. +1
                19 May 2019 13: 55
                Marine Corps + Mikhailovskaya


                it seems to me that at some time the ZPR just finally went to the roof, which used to be a little on one side, this time
                mind and education ZPR like never shone, these are two
                the combination of two indicated factors led to the inability to solve geometry for the 5th grade, these are three

                and your logic is from the category: there are rights - I can ride)
                1. +1
                  27 May 2019 00: 09
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev

                  it seems to me that at some time the ZPR just finally went to the roof, which used to be a little on one side, this time

                  emotional personal judgment: "it seems", "the roof has gone." By the way, the presence of a number of mental disorders does not in any way conflict with the patient's high intellect (I'm not talking about Rozhdestvensky specifically, but in principle).
                  mind and education ZPR like never shone, these are two

                  I repeat, there is an objective fact: a man graduated from the Marine Corps (in the first ten) and the Mikhailovsky Artillery Academy (also, by the way, very good).
                  Total: your personal statement # 1 (Rozhdestvensky is mentally ill) + your personal statement # 2 (Rozhdestvensky is poorly educated and naturally stupid). The combination of these statements, excuse me, can only give "it seems to me" and "sort of like", which you are using.
                  and your logic is from the category: there are rights - I can ride)

                  I pointed out the inconsistency of your statement "the mental development of the ZPR would not allow him to finish nine classes" and the fact that Rozhestvensky successfully graduated from two higher educational institutions.
                  If anything, before entering the Mikhailovsky Academy, a student was examined in the following subjects:
                  artillery, fortification, tactics, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, differential and integral calculus, physics, chemistry, elementary mechanics, artillery drawing and the languages ​​Russian French and German.
                  Perhaps, of course, you have information that Rozhestvensky passed all exams for bribes or wrote off. Share, if not difficult.

                  R.S. The presence of a driver’s license, obtained as a result of proper training and passing the exam, indicates that the person really has the minimum necessary driving skills.
                  1. 0
                    27 May 2019 00: 59
                    Quote: Ryazanets87
                    a man graduated from the Marine Corps (in the top ten) and the Mikhailovsky Artillery Academy (also, incidentally, very good).

                    This may be a sign of diligence, for example. A diligent cadet is a bad naval officer. The specifics of the service, you know. To headquarters, you can. On the ship, you can’t.
                    I do not think that Rozhdestvensky was somehow sick. Or stupid. But the battle, as a commander, he held disgusting. After all, the battle began even before Tsushima. And starting from the preparatory stage, he has a jamb on a jamb.
                    But I do not think that Russia had a better commander. They were all about the same there, i.e. none.
                    And Russia didn’t have ships for linear combat (the grunts of Borodino and other floating rubbish 2 and 3 of the TOE were not suitable for this at all). The very decision to move pistons toward Japan was flawed. Even if you put together all the Russian buckets with nuts (initially together, in a pile, all three TOEs), then the chances against the British EDB YaIF (even against four) were extremely small.
                    In general, this topic (the fleet in the period of the REV) is sucked from the finger. The fate of the war was decided not on water, but on land. And Russia lost this war. But the RIF did not help the ground forces.
                    And in general, it was built in vain. At least in the form in which it was at the beginning of the REV. It is unclear with whom the RIF was going to fight with such a poor squad. With Japan, the gut was clearly thin.
                  2. -1
                    27 May 2019 11: 04
                    Then why could he not calculate the margin of advance of the right column for maneuver?
                    Or will you seriously like the Great namesake say that you cannot measure a distance of 10 cabs with a range finder? that speed cannot be determined by lag, etc.? IMHO: they judge a tree by its fruits)

                    says that a person really has the minimum necessary driving skills.


                    rebuilding results say that zpr did not possess

                    I repeat, there is an objective fact: a person has finished


                    but there is an objective fact that many people with higher education are not able to answer to interviews, "how much will 0,5 divide 1/2". and don't care that they have a state university diploma
            3. +1
              20 May 2019 12: 19
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              that the mental development of ZPR would not allow him to finish nine classes

              one more... bully ZPR graduated from the Marine Corps and classes - in fact, had a higher education ...
              another thing is that he:
              1) was stressed
              2) morally broken even before the battle ... as can be seen from his flight from Suvorov hi
  5. +3
    18 May 2019 18: 23
    And finally, "cu de grasse":

    Let's say that Togo is driving straight ahead at full steam, making a turn all of a sudden, bringing his battleships closer to Nebogatov's detachment of cables by about 15 and tearing it like a hot water bottle in half an hour. Kamimura fights Felkersam's squad. A detachment of 4 newest battleships does not manage to help either one or the other. We get that through the polchal "Nikolay 1" and 3 BBOs are destroyed. What will you do next, sir?
    1. +5
      18 May 2019 20: 55
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      And finally, "cu de grasse":

      Have you finally decided to shoot yourself?
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      For example, Togo is going straight ahead on all pairs, making a turn all of a sudden, moving closer with its battleships with the Nebogatov detachment of Kabeltov commercials on 15 and tearing it like a tuzik hot-water bottle in half an hour.

      It's like, sorry? :))) Specify the initial position of the Russian and Japanese squadrons
      1. -2
        18 May 2019 20: 58
        As on your circuit, only Togo does not loop tongue
        1. +4
          18 May 2019 21: 09
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          As on your circuit, only Togo does not loop

          on which of my schemes? Even you, with your absolute knowledge of geometry for the 5 class, might notice that there are quite a lot of them :))))
          1. -3
            18 May 2019 21: 11
            on the 5th of 6 they themselves drew a total file of their own theory)
            1. +4
              18 May 2019 21: 27
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              on 5 from 6

              On the 5 th scheme, Togo goes either down the left column or across the line in the wake column. On 6-oh - down the front line. I repeat the question - from what position does Togo begin the maneuvers you described?
              1. -2
                18 May 2019 21: 30
                I repeat the answer: it goes down the wake column) this is clear from my comment.
                then turn "all of a sudden"
                1. +7
                  18 May 2019 21: 42
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  I repeat the answer: it goes down by the wake column)

                  OK, accepted. So, if Togo descends by a wake column, Rozhestvensky returns to his head a squad of 4 of his best EDB, after which Togo has to disperse with him on countercourses, substituting Kamimura with heavy cannons. With some combat-ready shells (which the Russians, alas, did not have), this would have allowed the exchange of the ships of Nebogatov on the Kamimura BRKR, which would have been generally beneficial to the Russian fleet.
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  A squad from 4 of the newest battleships does not have time to help either one or the other.

                  Ka Kraz still has time, which was verified in the Tsushima battle. Rozhestvensky, in fact, had time and Togo had to flee into the loop of Togo :)))))
                  1. 0
                    18 May 2019 21: 45
                    Rozhdestvensky returns to the head

                    After all, he managed to


                    in general, it turned out he did not really have time for the fact)
                    here we look at your future scheme wassat
                    we don’t forget that ZPR limits Suvorov’s speed during rebuilding as in a real story, and then it drastically slows down in time bully
                    1. +4
                      18 May 2019 22: 23
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      in general, it turned out he did not really have time for the fact)

                      Well, imagine your version - Togo disagrees on countercourses with Rozhestvensky at close range :))))) 4 ADBs work full, first on the ADB then on Camimore ... It seems that you have just offered a recipe for the Russian victory in Tsushima :))) )
                      1. -3
                        18 May 2019 22: 56
                        belay

                        Togo diverges on counter courses in the direction from "Oslyabi" to "Nikolai 1", turns "everything suddenly ost", leaving Kamimura to the left and forward "Oslyabi", leaving the First armored detachment on the traverse of Nebogatov's detachment. Each of Nebogatov's ships consistently under the concentrated fire of the Togo detachment from a distance of 15 cables lives on average 5 minutes, for example. Not rich doomed = 100500%.
                        The question at what moment will the ZPR give an order to increase the stroke, for convenience it can be expressed by a traverse: that is, at the moment of Mikasa on the Oslyabya traverse, or at the moment of Mikasa on the Sisoy traverse, etc.
                        We take into account here that the ZPR will accelerate to only 12 knots.
                        Further, the interestingness strongly depends on the above point, but there is a nuance: I am not a specialist in Kamimura, but I love and respect Kato, I think I understand his way of thinking quite well, so I wang that the Second Armored Detachment will break the distance with a "all of a sudden West" lapel, if only Rozhdestvensky's detachment effectively engages in battle.
                        The result of the debut: "Nikolai 1" and 3 BBOs were destroyed, but there are no enemies between "Suvorov" and Vladivostok. Then the race started? There is a widespread opinion, to add everything from "Peter the Great" to "Alexander 2" so that 4 Borodinians, "Oslyabya" and cruisers run away while they are drowned - but this stone flower does not work out for me.

                        Damn it, "childhood taste" - thanks! As usual, sorry for the harshness)
                      2. +3
                        19 May 2019 01: 27
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Togo diverges on counter courses in the direction from "Oslyabi" to "Nikolai 1"

                        In the direction from Suvorov to Nikolai :))) Until you understand this, it is pointless to continue
                      3. -2
                        19 May 2019 11: 59
                        In the direction from Suvorov to Nikolai :))) Until you understand this, it is pointless to continue

                        recourse

                        I’ll try to express my thoughts more easily:



                        above is the original diagram from the author



                        The above is an amendment to the scheme:
                        blue - displacement of the right detachment 1 TOE, asterisk = position of "Suvorov"
                        red - course PBO, asterisk = position of "Mikasa"
                        orange position UBO, asterisk = position "Izumo"

                        result: "Nikolai 1" and 3 BBOs destroyed at the very beginning of the battle
                      4. +1
                        19 May 2019 21: 21
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        The above is an amendment to the scheme:

                        wrong amendment :))) Because Rozhestvensky had time to rebuild before Togo stepped on Suvorov's traverse and this happened by FACT. In life:)))
                      5. -1
                        19 May 2019 22: 33
                        your scheme number 5 is "wrong", not an amendment. You took a theoretical situation (option 2), where Togo does not go obliquely, but jumps out from the left - you got an alternative that is even worse than that of ZPR in reality laughing
                        and the correction is correct)
                        As we see from the solution of the ZPR problem, for a correct rebuild, you need a stock of 20-25 cables, that is, it will take 50-70 minutes to correctly rebuild, and then remember the chronology of the start of the battle, does he have this time? laughing
                      6. 0
                        20 May 2019 07: 51
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        You took a theoretical situation (option 2), where Togo goes not diagonally, but pops up on the left

                        That is, even the maneuvering of squadrons in the battle string is not familiar to you. Not surprised
                      7. +1
                        20 May 2019 07: 55
                        That is, even the maneuvering of squadrons in the beginning of battle is not familiar to you


                        we analyze your hypothetical scheme number 5, this is your version of one of the possible beginnings of the battle

                        besides distortion and rudeness there is nothing to answer?

                        Not surprised
  6. +1
    18 May 2019 19: 44
    Dear author, I do not want to write too much criticism, it will be typed much more in size than the article itself, I highly recommend that you carefully study the work of Sir J. Harper "The Truth About the Battle of Jutland". There, a brilliant professional examines deployment problems using the example, IMHO, the most difficult case in the history of wars at sea. It will be very useful to you. Have a nice day, creative success.
    1. +4
      18 May 2019 20: 57
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      Dear author, I do not want to write too much criticism, it will be much more than the article itself.

      Yeah, thank you. Sometimes, you know, it's better to pay a little attention to the materiel. Before you criticize.
      1. 0
        18 May 2019 22: 33
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yeah, thanks. Sometimes, you know, it’s better to pay a little attention to the materiel.

        Especially to the author. And then the fantasy and rushing.
  7. +3
    18 May 2019 20: 11
    Snap to the map here
    Devil in detail - avoid the hell
  8. +3
    18 May 2019 21: 43
    But, moving in two wake columns, Z.P. Rozhdestvensky could successfully fend off any of these options, because he could rebuild his forces in the front or wake very quickly.


    He could not, in this situation, in any case, in the initial phase one squad dropped out of battle.
    1. +1
      18 May 2019 22: 21
      Quote: 27091965i
      He could not, in this situation, in any case, in the initial phase one squad dropped out of battle.

      Just did not fall out - when detecting an enemy in 7 miles Rozhestvensky had time to rebuild :)
      1. +3
        19 May 2019 10: 02
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Just did not fall out - when detecting an enemy in 7 miles Rozhestvensky had time to rebuild :)


        Dear Andrew.
        The mathematical calculation in this case is not very suitable. This can be seen from the works of Admiral Butakov G.I. Based on the French system of dividing a squadron into squads of three ships, he also checked the division into squads of four ships, commanding a squad of propeller ships, he in practice checked the maneuvering and rebuilding of the squadron. He concluded that ships with different performance characteristics would not only complicate maneuvering, but also increase the time to complete the maneuver. Therefore, he actively advocated the construction of ships in series in Russia, to create uniform squads of ships.
        As for the actions of Admiral Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, in order to get a chance of success, he needed to put Admiral Togo Kh. In the role of a catch-up by maneuvering, but he could not do it. Since he had "a stone on his neck" the transports of the squadron, depriving him of freedom of maneuver. This is not only my opinion, this is the conclusion reached by many naval officers both in our fleet and in foreign ones.
        1. +1
          19 May 2019 21: 22
          Quote: 27091965i
          As for the actions of Admiral Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, in order to get a chance of success, he needed to put Admiral Togo Kh. In the role of a catch-up by maneuvering, but he could not do it. Since he had "a stone on his neck" the transports of the squadron, depriving him of freedom of maneuver.

          And ships 2-th and 3-th armored corps, unable to go fast :))) hi
          1. +3
            20 May 2019 00: 17
            And the ships of the 2nd and 3rd armored squads, unable to go fast :))) hi


            between 13 nodes and 9 you understand the difference, sir?
  9. 0
    18 May 2019 21: 57
    Thank you for the article. But what did not turn around onboard salvo?
    1. +4
      18 May 2019 22: 23
      So the battleships are not frigates of the sailing fleet.
      The main caliber is the bow and stern towers. Board work
      both of these towers, but the ship itself is vulnerable. Nose - one tower works,
      but getting into the ship is more difficult ...
      1. +6
        18 May 2019 23: 45
        As I understand it, the main difficulty in those years was determining the distance to the enemy ship. Therefore, it is more difficult to get into a ship deployed aboard than into one that is perpendicular.
        Crossing T consists precisely in conducting full-range fire with all the guns of the ships of his detachment, receiving in response only from the bow guns of the enemy’s ships.
        1. +1
          19 May 2019 11: 37
          Sorry, I’ll get into your dispute, at that time it was very difficult to take into account, first of all, non-obvious changes in the enemy’s course, which began to greatly affect the accuracy of firing from a distance of more than 30 cable (shooting did not give results, and the measurements were very inaccurate)
        2. +1
          19 May 2019 12: 03
          You are certainly right, but only on condition that both ships are absolutely motionless:
          As I understand it, the main difficulty in those years was determining the distance to the enemy ship. Therefore, it is more difficult to get into a ship deployed aboard than into one that is perpendicular.

          That is, if in the position of the stick above the "T" the ship is in the role of the lower stick, since its length is 6 - 8 times greater than the width, then the number of hits from one gun is the same, and if we also take into account that it can only shoot from two towers one bow, and the enemy has both, then the difference in the number of hits could be 12-16 times!
          However, it must be borne in mind that the ships are approaching quickly, and the gunners do not like and almost do not know how to shoot at a target that quickly changes its distance, it follows that both ships in this position will miss more than hit.
          But if you take the real situation and speed, then everything is much more interesting! Take the initial distance of 30 cable (3 miles) and the speed of 16 knots, and the final distance of this rapprochement of 10 cable - because immediately after that the ship in the position of the upper stick over T received either a torpedo into the side or a ramming strike. Therefore, subtract 3 cabs from the 10 original miles, and get a distance of convergence of 20 cabs = 2 miles. And now, having elementarily divided 2 miles into 16 knots, you will get a rapprochement duration of only 7,5 minutes. I remind you that the latest Russian armadillos in Tsushima were able to hold out against the Japanese fire for about 5 hours - that is, 300 minutes!
          Moreover, there were periods when the battleship "Prince Suvorov" was driven by machines and involuntarily approached the entire Japanese squadron and all 12 Japanese armored ships fired at a lonely Russian ship from a distance of about 10 cab! That is, Russian ships could withstand even longitudinal shelling for several minutes, and after that the Japanese would have to flee and, in turn, also stand under longitudinal shelling.
      2. 0
        19 May 2019 10: 22
        The main caliber is the bow and stern towers. Board work
        both of these towers, but the ship itself is vulnerable.

        Why? After all, the width of the ship is less than the length. That means with a side salvo and return fire, a small error at the rangefinder post will correspond to a miss.
        1. +5
          19 May 2019 10: 38
          I had in mind a certain analogy of an armadillo with a tank:
          always turn your forehead, not your side.
          But an opponent of Ivanchester had already objected to me that the problem at that time was not deflecting to the side, but determining the distance to the enemy ship. And I agreed with him.
          1. +1
            19 May 2019 10: 44
            But my opponent objected to me that the problem at that time was not deflecting to the side, but determining the distance to the enemy ship. And I agreed with him.

            hi
            I agree too. But this has not been done. Could it have fallen into circulation?
            1. +3
              19 May 2019 10: 55
              I am of the opinion that 90% of success in a fight is determined by the amount of training before the fight: maneuvers and shooting. If Rozhdestvensky five or ten times on the way from Europe rehearsed maneuvers and shooting at various distances, then there would be a chance to "brush off" the Japanese.
              But they always save: coal, engine resource, shells sad
              And at a crucial moment ... negative
              1. 0
                19 May 2019 11: 47
                If Rozhestvensky five or ten times on the way from Europe rehearsed maneuvers and shooting at various distances, then there would be a chance to "brush off" the Japanese.

                I agree. But who then at all flew the fleet? Is it not the one who removed the towers from the battleships? so that they don’t interfere with dancing ...
                1. -1
                  19 May 2019 15: 22
                  Who was involved in financing? It depends on financing, and not on the evil will of individual citizens and gentlemen. Just before the war, the fleet was cut off financing time after time: they intentionally prepared the fleet (as well as the army) for war.
                  1. +1
                    19 May 2019 22: 28
                    Who was involved in financing? It depends on financing, and not on the evil will of individual citizens and gentlemen.

                    Hm! The jewelers of the commander’s lovers were engaged in financing. And led from the Cote d'Azur. Am I mistaken?
                    1. +1
                      20 May 2019 18: 51
                      Hm! The jewelers of the commander’s lovers were engaged in financing. And led from the Cote d'Azur. Am I mistaken?

                      No need to retell jokes.
                      The Minister of Finance and the Chairman of the Committee of Ministers was Witte.
                      In combination, he was a British agent, and carefully prepared Russia for war. For example, the construction of a fortress in the PA was frozen several times - but Dalniy was being intensely built (apparently to make it more convenient for the Japanese to land near a Russian base). Fleet financing was regularly cut off on trifles, etc. etc.
                      1. 0
                        20 May 2019 19: 16
                        No need to retell jokes.

                        Andrew. Do not be shy - refute. Ali we did not slap three sides for the battle in the Straits? With two bow towers? And for what. Ali did the Japanese have landing sides?
                      2. 0
                        20 May 2019 22: 24
                        Why "refute" something?

                        The finance minister was in charge. And not "mistresses" at all, as it seems to you. All jokes about mistresses are told precisely in order to divert attention from the Minister of Finance: the magician waves something bright and brilliant --- that means the attention is distracting.

                        So get to know the activities of the Minister of Finance --- what exactly he did and how. And then ask yourself "WHY did he act so strange?" So that's exactly why I did it.

                        REV is a war and the achievement of ONE man. ONE man did it all.

                        And it is strange that he was not given three times the hero of Japan and Britain for this feat ...
              2. 0
                19 May 2019 15: 20
                Rozhdestvensky and practiced - as much as he could: the 2nd TOE shot better than the 1st.
                1. -2
                  19 May 2019 15: 52
                  Quote: AK64
                  2nd TOE shot better than 1st.

                  Where is this kind of nonsense? Read what squadron officers testified in the testimony.
                  Rozhestvensky "... there was very little practical shooting in the second squadron ... I don't remember how many shots were fired ..."
                  Senior flag officer Day - "... the squadron fired four times ... the distance of 20-25 cables ... both shooting and maneuvering were deemed unsatisfactory, which was repeatedly indicated by the orders of the commander ..."
                  Rear Admiral Enquist - "... all firing was unsatisfactory ... distance 20-25 cable ..."
                  Flag headquarters captain Clapier de Colong - "... there was no main thing - they did not know how to shoot and there was no move ..."
                  1. +1
                    19 May 2019 20: 05
                    Where is this kind of nonsense? Read what squadron officers testified in the testimony.

                    (1) Don't squeal like that, please - "nonsense" is what's in your head
                    (2) from the results of the shooting it is visible. And from the training - which by the way is known: we trained constantly.
                    1. +1
                      19 May 2019 22: 07
                      Quote: AK64
                      1) Don't squeal like that, please - "nonsense" is what's in your head
                      (2) from the results of the shooting it is visible. And from the training - which by the way is known: we trained constantly.

                      How was squeal determined? Maybe your fan squeals? Like comments so far without sounds go laughing
                      Did you read what the 2TOE officers said in the testimony, which I quoted in a previous comment? Did you see? Or squeal interfered? lol
                      1. 0
                        20 May 2019 21: 32
                        You read what 2TOE officers said in the testimony

                        And where comparison with 1ToE ??? And what in evidence they said that it’s not enough (in comparison with the Japanese) it is clear, the result is obvious))
                    2. -1
                      20 May 2019 00: 23
                      2nd TOE shot better than 1st.


                      Remember how "Dmitry Donskoy" shot at a motionless destroyer laughing

                      And from training - which by the way is known


                      Have you ever read about their results? laughing

                      Do not scream so please


                      tongue got it again? well cry
                      1. +1
                        20 May 2019 14: 15
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Remember how "Dmitry Donskoy" shot at a motionless destroyer

                        And you remember how he fought with the 4 cruisers and one of them just got a hole below the waterline.
                      2. +1
                        20 May 2019 16: 48
                        I remember, one does not exclude the other) a heroic cruiser, which does not cancel the mass of questions on the accuracy of firing 2 TOE - a controversial topic
                      3. 0
                        20 May 2019 21: 26
                        Remember how "Dmitry Donskoy" shot at a motionless destroyer

                        How did you shoot? Tell a novel, laugh.
                      4. +1
                        20 May 2019 21: 41
                        what to laugh? 5 times in a row I didn’t get like with 1,5 cable, no? am I confusing something?
                      5. -1
                        20 May 2019 21: 54
                        5 times in a row I didn’t get like with 1,5 cable, no? am I confusing something?

                        Probably confusing (although the heroes of the novel also thought so). Most shells did not explode (familiar?), But were carried away further, which you won’t immediately notice.
                      6. +1
                        20 May 2019 21: 56
                        I’m not a great specialist in Tsushima, but I brought two different opinions of officers

                        about non-explosions, the devil only knows, but there is a nuance, the development of the Brink tube went sharply uphill after the RYAV, maybe "it's not about the bobbin"?
                      7. +1
                        20 May 2019 22: 03
                        maybe "it's not about the bobbin"?

                        In it, it is simply unsuitable for firing at unarmored (thin) structures. Brink is not entirely guilty, before there was an insanity about armor-piercing shells - the Russian 75mm Canet did not have high-explosive shells at all. Enemy destroyers had to be "stopped" by falling through the coal into the car!
                      8. +1
                        20 May 2019 22: 08
                        Russians 75mm Kane didn’t have high explosives at all


                        yeah, I read that it was specially conceived for firing at destroyers so that the projectile could hit the boilers and (or) the car, even scattering a layer of coal) - like without a hit, 75-mm shells are ineffective even against destroyers

                        used to be crazy about armor-piercing shells


                        Kostenko, for example, believes that if the Japanese had shot the BB, they would have sunk 2 TOEs in no time, so it’s not a fact that it’s "insanity", but rather the choice of the least bad option, maybe they just all had either bad Russia) or very bad (most others)?
                      9. +2
                        20 May 2019 22: 28
                        type without such a hit 75-mm shells are ineffective even against destroyers

                        Yes, but everyone thought so before (47mm), in this case (from Russian steel and with pyroxylin) they simply could not make effective ones (French had), even 152mm turned out to be "not very high-explosive"))
                      10. +1
                        20 May 2019 22: 33
                        Well, to be honest, a 47-mm shell is NOT effective with TNT and hard to turn)
                      11. -1
                        20 May 2019 22: 41
                        47 mm projectile in an effective NOT ...

                        What carried you, where did you see this? It's about the "theory of getting into a car" - it arose in the 47mm era.
                        But it all went from your mockery that 2THE did NOT shoot better than 1st. The facts suggest otherwise.
                      12. +1
                        20 May 2019 22: 46
                        NOT - "high explosive shell" in English, maybe you misunderstood me?
                        about the "theory of getting into the car" - well, and I mean it

                        But UTB came from your mockery that 2THE did NOT shoot better than 1st. The facts suggest otherwise.


                        I did not sneer, I noticed:

                        If the maneuvering scheme provided by Andrei from Chelyabinsk is correct, then, based on the rate of fire he assumed at the beginning of the battle, the Second Squadron in Tsushima shot much better than the first in the ZhM. Despite the fact that the weather conditions in the former were better, however, the distance in the latter was on average much less *.


                        as well as:
                        To be honest, I have no opinion on the issue of accuracy of firing of 2 TOE, which I am ready to present as final and accurate, a lot of assumptions need to be made
                        But for a categorical statement about a fundamentally better accuracy compared to 1 TOE, it seems to me that there are more assumptions to be made than I am ready to admit. Hi


                        as well as:
                        in fact, everyone was shooting and, IMHO, even the third squad could hit Mikasa, no? but this is the subject of a huge article and a long comment thread. we must wait for the next post of Andrey from Chelyabinsk)
                      13. -1
                        20 May 2019 22: 59
                        NOT - "high explosive shell" in English, maybe you misunderstood me?

                        I am amazed! What not to understand, what are you talking about high-explosive 47mm shells? In such a caliber (40-57mm) and now there are none such as high explosive.
                      14. 0
                        20 May 2019 23: 21
                        now i'm amazed! For me, OFS differs from FS in the presence of special elements designed to form fragments of structurally specified sizes. Can you tell me who had the OFS in 1905?
                      15. 0
                        20 May 2019 23: 28
                        for me OFS differs from FS in the presence of special itemsdesigned for the formation of fragments, structurally specified sizes

                        Eto is just for you))) But if you always write on any topic (what kind of duty do you give, do nothing else for others?) Then I am much less likely to.
                      16. 0
                        20 May 2019 23: 44
                        you are always written on any topic (what kind of duty do you give, nothing else to do?)


                        I have a free schedule, sir, I have the right to want to drink beer and not go to work, although the working week is 60 hours, you will have to work on another day, I print quickly and as a keepsake - because I don’t need much time)

                        Good evening!
                      17. +1
                        20 May 2019 21: 54
                        There is, of course, the testimony of V.E. Zatursky:
                        “According to“ Violent ”, nine shots were fired from a six-inch gun, from a distance from 2 to 3 cable. One projectile did not hit, the remaining eight, although they did, but most of them did not explode, so 20-30 minutes had passed since the start of the shooting, before the destroyer sank ... ”.

                        But there is also evidence of K.P. Blokhin:
                        "The destroyer, which was motionless, some thirty fathoms from the motionless cruiser, was hit only by the sixth shot from a modern six-inch gun ...".
              3. +1
                19 May 2019 20: 44
                Quote: voyaka uh
                If Rozhestvensky five or ten times on the way from Europe rehearsed maneuvers and shooting at various distances, then there would be a chance to "brush off" the Japanese.

                How many shootings do you think?
      3. 0
        27 May 2019 12: 10
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Board work
        both of these towers, but the ship itself is vulnerable. Nose - one tower works,
        but getting into the ship is more difficult ...

        What you write about is absolutely correct, but by no means in all cases.
        For example, this is true for modern 1MV ships.
        This is true for modern citadel EBRs from the time of the REV (in Russia this is only Retvisan).
        In all other cases, it was necessary to stick to the tactics of warfare of previous centuries.
        Someone because of the weakness of surface booking.
        Someone because of the peculiarities of booking in general (Borodino).
  10. +3
    18 May 2019 22: 38
    Andrew do not feed the troll. All right write. I ask you then to partially use your calculations at home. When to finish hands reach.
    In those conditions when calculation methods on a maneuverable tablet have not yet been born and the concept of a flagship gearbox did not exist. such estimates were the only possible way to at least somehow manage the battle. Actually, the loss of control at its very beginning after an injured erysipelas is the main reason for losing the battle.
    1. -2
      18 May 2019 23: 18
      I apologize for the obsession, but could you explain to the stupid troll (that is, to me) about how and when the methods for constructing maneuver on the tablet were born.
      I’ll tell you honestly, I didn’t fully read Descartes and Newton in the original, therefore I admit other versions feel
      I can build on graph paper, not just without a computer, even without a calculator. In the 7th grade it was necessary - I decided on a draft and wrote in a notebook)
      And most importantly, explain, psta, that prevented the construction of ZPRs even in a notebook, even with a coal on the wall laughing
      1. -1
        19 May 2019 10: 38
        It was disturbing that there were no methods. They, along with maneuverable tablets, began to be developed only in the First World War.
        1. +1
          19 May 2019 11: 32
          It was disturbing that there were no methods.

          lol
          methods for building a maneuverable tablet were already in the 17th century
          1. -2
            19 May 2019 17: 17
            The law of gravity was also up to Newton. And what? What did not use?
            1. +2
              19 May 2019 17: 22
              The law of gravity was also up to Newton. And what? What did not use?


              before Newton was not a law, but speculation about the existence of a certain force)

              Let's get to my question:
              what besides
              or mental illness
              or ignorance of the school curriculum
              or both

              prevented from rendering the ZPR maneuver on the tablet?
              Yes, even with a pencil on sheet A4?
              1. 0
                19 May 2019 17: 30
                Who are Morev or Dementzov you know?
                1. 0
                  19 May 2019 17: 32
                  "Fundamentals of Tactical Ship Maneuvering"?
                  1. +2
                    19 May 2019 17: 50
                    Check out for a start. And you will understand. So as you say, you need to draw on the tablet ...
                    Have an organizational time, a technical two system for collecting information about goals. Trained operators for drawing and tracking this situation. Means of communication between them. ! Well-established working methods on the tablet for coordination in relative and absolute coordinate systems and Calculations of shooting data. Those same Sea and dementovskih. Matapparat. Blt tablet itself must have! After 10 years, only fictional! a tablet of the required accuracy for art shooting and maneuver control will be about two by two meters. Have you ever seen the dimensions of the conning tower? There, a total of ten people could hardly fit! Standing up Even now, the calculation of FKP is not one dozen people a lot of tables and equipment
                    1. -2
                      19 May 2019 18: 04
                      Are you mocking This is a task from grade 7.

                      The length of the "Suvorov" column + double step between materials = 14 kb
                      Distance between columns / speed of "Suvorov"
                      about 10 kb / 110 kb per hour = 0,1 hour, then 0,1 hour x "Oslyabya" speed = 9 kb

                      Well, sir, why do you need to solve this problem:
                      Have an organizational time, a technical two system for collecting information about goals. Trained operators for drawing and tracking this situation. Means of communication between them. ! Proven working methods on the tablet for coordination in relative and absolute coordinate systems
                      request
                      1. +3
                        19 May 2019 18: 31
                        Yes, it's my fault. I forgot my own advice not to argue with the troll.
                        The ship’s combat crew calculation is now being prepared in accordance with the training course for 3 years and this is a single ship. FKP connections are generally piece goods. If everything is so simple, what are they not recruiting seventh graders for? Go clean up ..
                        but I wash my hands, I can’t argue with such incompetence.
                      2. -1
                        19 May 2019 18: 38
                        but I wash my hands, I can’t argue with such incompetence.


                        Are you kidding me?

                        I know without you that
                        The ship’s combat crew calculation is now being prepared in accordance with the training course for 3 years and this is a single ship. FKP connections are generally piece goods.


                        I told you that any seventh-grader will tell you that to rebuild two columns in one turn "all of a sudden" the ZPR was obliged to provide a lead of 25 cables (it takes a student about 30 seconds, probably)

                        If everything is so simple, what are they not recruiting seventh graders for?

                        Ship combat crew

                        needed to solve such a problem with jewelry accuracy (much more accurate than the seventh grader) in much more complex conditions of maneuvering

                        I can’t argue with such incompetence.

                        You cannot argue with the fact that ZPR:
                        1.did not cope with the task for seventh graders
                        2. did not have repetitive courts to understand this

                        Have a nice day! )
                      3. +2
                        19 May 2019 20: 11
                        I can’t argue with such incompetence.


                        Exactly this, that is, absolute incompetence, is the main feature of this whole loudly screaming team. Well, it would seem, well, you don’t know something --- it’s nothing, you can’t know everything, neither here nor in the world are there people who know everything. But why scream like that? Why not ask, quietly and most importantly. politely --- because there are people who will explain. But no: squeak, screech, .... and a comparison with the maneuvering of a passenger car is just a masterpiece.
                      4. 0
                        20 May 2019 00: 25
                        But no: squeak, screech, ....


                        You are our competent: where are the proofs?
    2. +7
      18 May 2019 23: 22
      "The loss of control at the very beginning after being wounded in the face is the main reason for losing the battle." (FROM).

      Loss of control - yes, but the admiral’s wound is unlikely, Andrei, of course, will not agree with me, but in my opinion, there was a ZPR, that he wasn’t, at that time it did not affect the outcome of the battle. smile

      In general, I love to watch from the side how intelligent people argue! I read out the comments with almost more interest than the article itself! good
      Tomorrow from the rise immediately for the computer, if now at night he will not bring anyone to visit with vodka. Good Sunday everyone! drinks
      1. 0
        18 May 2019 23: 33
        Waiting for tomorrow drinks
    3. +3
      19 May 2019 20: 25
      The main reason for the loss is that Rozhdestvensky did not prepare for battle.
      Any preparation for battle includes the preparation of weapons.
      Why didn’t Rozhestvensky separate the transports, the floating workshop, the hospitals from the squadron in advance and send them out under the guards of auxiliary cruisers in a circuitous way? This would free the cruisers, which would be useful in repelling the attacks of enemy destroyers. And would increase the speed of the squadron.
      Why did not take measures to clean the hulls of ships from fouling. And it was already insignificant, at the level of the waterline. And that would also increase the speed of the squadron.
      Why did not take measures to reduce the overload of ships. If you carefully look at what the construction overload has accumulated from, there was a possibility of its reduction. And that would also increase the speed of the squadron.
      Why not ordered to repaint the ships in ball?
    4. -2
      19 May 2019 21: 23
      Quote: Alceers
      Andrew do not feed the troll

      Dear Alexander, you are not the first to say this. Anything more will not :)
  11. +1
    18 May 2019 23: 44
    What is a passionate desire to justify Rozhdestvensky, what speeds can we talk about after moving from the Baltic around Africa ?!
    1. +1
      19 May 2019 09: 38
      But what, the desire to justify is prohibited? Judging by the intensity of the discussion, some have come as a taboo. They argue, as for the Mausoleum.
  12. +6
    18 May 2019 23: 58
    Andrei, good afternoon!

    I would like to ask a few questions.
    1. In the comments on your article on hospital courts, I wrote in sufficient detail why the decision to light the lights on them testified to the illiteracy of ZPR, but you apparently didn’t notice my message :( I would be grateful if you answer it in that thread or here.
    2. You announced earlier that explain the reasons why Admiral Rozhestvensky refused close intelligence with high-speed cruisers, but I did not see these reasons. Meanwhile, it was close intelligence that could allow ZPR to meet the Japanese ships in the most suitable way without building their squadron in an indistinct crane wedge, the result of which was the sudden death of Oslyaby.
    3. If I’m not mistaken, in the battle in ZhM the Russian convoy had the 12-13 knots and the Admiral of Togo that day was extremely far from crossing. I believe that if the ZPR hadn’t taken the transports with him in the breakthrough, then in Tsushima our ships could move at the same speed. Which, accordingly, would also offset the risk of falling under crossing.
    1. +1
      19 May 2019 21: 47
      welcome, Ivan!
      Quote: Ivanchester
      In the comments to your article on hospital ships, I wrote in some detail why the decision to light the lights on them testified to the illiteracy of the CRA, but you probably did not notice my message :( I would appreciate it if you answer it in that thread or here.

      Now saw. Sorry, did not answer immediately. Comments, as you can see, I just don’t have time to respond to everything, even when there is a great desire to do this. Your not to answer - a sin :) hi
      So. You really described everything in great detail. But I see some nuances that, in my opinion, you did not take into account, I will describe them
      1) You think that the transfer of the wounded must necessarily delay the squadron. This is not necessary. For example, the squadron would not be delayed at all by the transfer of those rescued from the deceased Oslyabi - say, the Emerald or pearls were saved, and then transferred to hospital ships. That is, the wounded - they are not only on warships, but also on the dead. And they were supposed to be watched and helped by "pebbles" and destroyers. "
      2) The delay in the transfer of wounded ships is not necessarily so big - it depends on many factors.
      3) If the mountain does not go to the mahomet ... Then the high-speed cruisers could, on the contrary, deliver the medical staff to the most affected warships.
      That is, the sea options. They are such that may be so, and maybe so. I do not argue that Rozhestvensky was right in taking hospital ships with him, but he had reasons
      In my opinion, your question is rather strange. If the Russians had found the 14 on the late evening, at night from the 14 to the 15, they could have been lost, and in the morning they could not find the 15.

      But soon they would have been tortured with mine attacks at night, and in the morning the squadron that had suffered a loss would have to face a general battle. Again - I do not insist on the only correctness of the judgment, but there are reasons for this
      Taking into account the fact that they could not measure the distance to the ships ahead, because did not see them, and the radar on the "Eagle" and "Kostroma" were absent.

      Absolutely agree. But here it was rather so - they were given such an order before, and they managed to keep behind the squadron. That is, if Rozhdestvensky's Friendship on the night before the battle would have decided to give such an order, I would agree with you 100%, but the possibility of its implementation was tested in practice earlier
      Yours!
      ZY You have no idea how pleasant it is to have a constructive conversation after a trolling raid on this topic. hi drinks
  13. +1
    19 May 2019 03: 43
    Very interesting. I will wait for the continuation.
    I do not own the question, except for the general course of the history department of Moscow State University, but the presentation seems to be excellent. Thank.
  14. +6
    19 May 2019 05: 37
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    According to Kostenko, "Eagle" could develop up to 16 knots before the fight

    1) The displacement of the "Eagle" in the morning of May 14, 1905, according to the report of Vladimir Polievktovich, was 15 300 t. And speed, as you yourself wrote, 16 knot
    2) On sea trials 28 August 1904, with displacement 13 320 t., the armadillo achieved speed 17,5 knot
    3) Conclusion No. 1.
    An overload of two thousand tons (15 300 t - 13 320 t = 1 980 t) reduced the speed of the battleship by one and a half knots (17,5 - 16 = 1,5).
    4) According to Kostenko, an overload of three thousand tons reduced the speed of the Orel to thirteen and a half knots.

    5) Conclusion No. 2.
    An overload of three thousand tons, according to Kostenko, reduced the speed of the Eagle by four node (and as we recall, two thousand tons of transshipment, according to Kostenko, reduced the speed of the ship by one and a half node).
    6) Question.
    Personally, this dependence seems to me, to put it mildly, improbable, and to you? If yes, why?
    1. -2
      19 May 2019 09: 44
      An overload of three thousand tons, according to Kostenko, reduced the speed of the "Eagle" by four knots (and as we remember, two thousand tons of overload, according to Kostenko, reduced the speed of the ship by one and a half knots).
      6) Question.
      Personally, this dependence seems to me, to put it mildly, improbable, and to you? If yes, why?

      You have absolutely correct doubts! Most people who have not studied shipbuilding do not know that there is such admiralty formula the dependence of displacement on speed, which clearly says that an increase in displacement reduces speed at the root of the third degree! I.e : even if the displacement from overload has increased much, then the speed from this drops very little! And perhaps Kostenko himself was sometimes confused and mistaken. And Andrei from Chelyabinsk is even mistaken in overestimating the role of overload!
      1. +1
        22 May 2019 17: 13
        Most people who have not studied shipbuilding do not know that there is such an admiralty formula for the dependence of displacement on speed, which clearly says that an increase in displacement reduces speed at the root of the third degree! That is: even if the displacement from overload has increased much, then the speed from this drops very little!


        Oh my God!
        \ clutching his head \
        Well, you can’t do that, huh? Well, you can’t be .... Or can you?

        I will explain, I will explain (I'm kind):
        the formula in question is about comparing data for model and real boat. That is, they are testing the model - well, how can these experiments be transferred to a real boat? Well, these very coefficients exist for this. But we are talking about (a) a model in the pool and (b) a full-sized boat. And not about when the ship is loaded.
    2. 0
      19 May 2019 11: 29
      the question, of course, is extremely interesting, very glad that you are raising

      on ships of that time, speed depended on many factors: the quality of coal, which could be simply unpredictable, the skill of firemen, the current state of the CMU, etc.

      Judging by the steam consumption, the Eagle will not be able to develop more than 100 revolutions. Since there are 8 revolutions per knot, its maximum stroke is obtained not more than 13 ½ knots, while in Kronstadt on the test he developed 18 knots, and Borodino gave 16 1/2.
      (Melnikov indicates 17,5 knots for the "Eagle")

      seemingly the same type (I understand that the theoretical drawing was the same, but, for example, machines from different manufacturers) and ships built at the same time, and the difference in speed on tests is 1,5 knots (not less than 1,0 knots), despite the fact that " Borodino "was adopted" conditionally "

      to calculate and prove clear-cut dependencies is unrealistic due to the huge number of unaccounted factors
      (alas, I didn’t find exact data about fouling)

      however, I am inclined to believe Obnorsky that after replacing the eccentric at the plant, the Borodino mechanisms in the campaign showed full serviceability and were ready to give the required 109 revolutions, because the speed of all Borodino and Oslyabi by the time the battle began, in any case, was more than 14 knots. and with the normal setting of the case (unloading from additional water, etc., IMHO), it is quite possible to talk about 16 nodes, the same as in the First Armored Detachment of Togo
      1. +4
        19 May 2019 17: 34
        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
        the question, of course, is extremely interesting, very glad that you are raising

        There is an equally interesting question that has long been taking. And how long would it take for Rozhdestvensky’s detachment to increase speed from nine to sixteen knots?
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        in the normal setting of the case (unloading from additional water, etc., IMHO) it is quite possible to talk about 16 nodes

        So you saw that Kostenko’s information и in this case they sin against the truth, otherwise they would not write that sixteen knots could have been reached only after a series of measures to facilitate the ship.
        According to Kostenko, sixteen knots could be reached, despite an overload of two thousand tons.
        1. +2
          19 May 2019 17: 51
          So you saw that Kostenko’s information in this case also sins against the truth


          almost all descriptions of almost everything sin against the truth. the question is how much they sin, what is behind it and what came of it

          an error like Kostenko’s, that the Eagle could give up to 16 knots (well, let's say, a plus error of 1 knot) would have no effect on anything, had Kostenko been the commander of 2 TOE
          but Rozhestvensky’s postulate that the squadron can only move 9 knots, in an exceptional case, one squad can accelerate to 11 knots = clinical idiocy, which has aggravated the already very difficult situation 2 TOE

          I don’t argue about exactly how much Borodinians could have developed in the morning before the battle: 14,2 knots or 15,7 knots (conditionally), I claim that the clinical (deleted by the site) ZPR ditched the squadron, and then shamelessly lied about 9 nodes maximum
          1. +3
            19 May 2019 18: 04
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            Rozhestvensky’s postulate that the squadron can only move 9 nodes, in an exceptional case, one squad can accelerate to 11 nodes

            And you did not think that knowledge could be behind Rozhdestvensky’s actions? He could take into account important nuances that are not known to us now.
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            I claim that the clinical (deleted by the site) ZPR ditched the squadron, and then shamelessly lied about the maximum number of 9 nodes

            Vitgeft walked noticeably faster, did it help him a lot? Look at what the Japanese "Tsarevich" was turned into.
            In fact, it was not Rozhdestvensky who killed the squadron; the squadron was ruined by the moral, organizational, and technical superiority of the Japanese fleet.
            You could put in place of Christmas Nelson, the result would be the same.
            1. +1
              19 May 2019 18: 15
              And you did not think that knowledge could be behind Rozhdestvensky’s actions? He could take into account important nuances that are not known to us now.


              I thought about it. But such nuances did not seem to be voiced by him during the investigation, right? And no one from the commission of inquiry also seemed to be voiced, right?
              The fact that Nebogatov walked 13 knots at night, too, it seems like no one argued during the investigation, right?
              And I also thought that ZPR threatened the gallows with a bubble, albeit purely theoretically, because they had to write down several volumes of testimonies with such nuances if they had at least some objective data on this.

              Witgeft was going significantly faster, did it help him much?

              I just refute this with an elementary example of the postulate of the Great Namesake on the topic that additional 2 nodes under any circumstances guarantee "crossing-T"

              In fact, it was not Rozhdestvensky who killed the squadron; the squadron was ruined by the moral, organizational, and technical superiority of the Japanese fleet.

              You could put in place of Christmas Nelson, the result would be the same.

              why, Enquist also shot as much as he could and managed to escape, anyway better option than ZPR
            2. 0
              19 May 2019 20: 34
              What technical superiority of the Japanese fleet are we talking about?
            3. +1
              20 May 2019 00: 18
              Witgeft was going significantly faster, did it help him much?

              Witgeft showed exactly the same passive tactics and never attacked like Rozhestvensky. But even so, the Japanese suffered significant damage in the Yellow Sea, possibly no less than the Russians.
            4. +3
              20 May 2019 00: 28
              Look at what the Japanese have turned "Tsarevich".

              Well, the Japanese got it hard too. Moreover, their shells exploded much better than the Russians. And so the penetration of the armor of Japanese towers was also a lot. The difference in appearance after the battle between Tsarevich and Mikaza is that Russian armor-piercing shells pierced armor and disappeared inside enemy ships, while Japanese shells did not pierce armor, but left large holes in the thin unarmored side and pipes. It was clear to everyone. But external damage actually has little effect on the survivability of the ship. For example, the battleship "Emperor Alexander III" almost at the very beginning of the battle at the time of an attempt to break through under the tail of the Japanese squadron received a huge double hole from two Japanese suitcases - the size of a gate. But due to the fact that the hole was above the water and above the armor belt, then all the water that poured into it was immediately poured out. Therefore, Alexander III continued to participate in the battle for another five hours.
        2. +2
          19 May 2019 20: 16
          And how long would it take for Rozhdestvensky’s detachment to increase speed from nine to sixteen knots?

          About fifteen minutes (because 16 was almost full speed and there was no power reserve for speed dialing --- and the irons are huge)

          Or do you need up to a second?

          So you saw that Kostenko’s information in this case also sins against the truth, otherwise you wouldn’t write that sixteen knots could be achieved only after a series of measures to facilitate the ship.


          Well, it seems like 200 times it was said that the main problem was not with Oryol, but with Borodino

          In fact, it was not Rozhdestvensky who killed the squadron; the squadron was ruined by the moral, organizational, and technical superiority of the Japanese fleet.

          I can not agree: as an example - the release date. The squadron should have left in May. Well, July is a deadline. Well let it be August.
          But the squadron was hooked by hook or by crook until ... October (!!!!)
          And only when it became completely clear that Rozhdestvensky couldn’t catch Arthur in any way --- it was then that he was shoved into the sea.

          This is just an example.
          It was these "things" that ruined the squadron.
          1. +1
            19 May 2019 22: 22
            Quote: AK64
            Well, it seems like 200 times it was said that the main problem was not with Oryol, but with Borodino

            And who said? Kolobov or what? So he already is not the source. Kostenko quotes the words of the senior mechanic and engineer Borodin that the ship could give 15-16 knots. Are there any other primary sources?
        3. +1
          19 May 2019 22: 18
          Quote: Comrade
          According to Kostenko, sixteen knots could be reached, despite an overload of two thousand tons.

          This is where you got it from? Both Kostenko and the Swede talk about overloading the Orel in 1090 tons. Where did you get 2000? Did the author of the article write somewhere?
      2. +2
        19 May 2019 20: 31
        More precisely 15 knots. After all, we focus on the slowest. Fuji -15 knots.
  15. +4
    19 May 2019 06: 09
    Sorry, Andrew. You have written a lot of good. But then the praise of Rozhdestvensky passes all decency. Genius!!! But he was out of luck. Simply. Such a combination of circumstances ...
    Do not teach 8 (!) Armadillos, divided into two groups of 4, maneuver smoothly for six months and half the world! And there were commanders not hired yesterday. This could only be a genius. His completely ingenious decisions brought the Russian squadron under attack by the Japanese right at the beginning of the day. And they gave the Japanese the whole day to disassemble it.
    What excuses can be! Everything that could be done to defeat he did from the very beginning. Provided all the opportunities to the Japanese. And now, it turns out, he foresaw everything. And what, excuse me ....., he did not collect commanders and flagships before the battle? To share your brilliant ideas? Considered himself immortal? Or were they not there ?.
    1. 0
      19 May 2019 09: 05
      Ah, please forgive me - I accidentally pressed the wrong button and gave you a negative rating, but wanted to put a bold plus! You are absolutely right. But there is one more thing - Rozhestvensky, if sclerosis doesn’t fail me, adopted a new three-flag signal system, so during the campaign the Russian ships were often confused. Especially when the squadron of Nebogatov joined the squadron, which got used to the two-flag signal system and all sins were blamed on it - they say they do not know how to maneuver.
      1. +4
        19 May 2019 11: 10
        Nothing wrong. Not for the sake of pluses we live)
    2. 0
      19 May 2019 21: 28
      Quote: mmaxx
      Genius!!! But he was not lucky.

      And what have the luck? Bad shells, a small squadron of speed and injury at the beginning of the battle that brought him down - much more?
      Quote: mmaxx
      Do not teach 8 (!) Battleships, divided into two groups of 4, maneuver smoothly for six months and half the world!

      And who said that he did not teach? :)))) By the way, the squadron quite tolerably performed all the rebuilds in Tsushima :))))
      Quote: mmaxx
      His brilliant decisions entirely brought the Russian squadron under the blow of the Japanese right at the beginning of the day.

      How else? :))) Suggest your option.
      Quote: mmaxx
      And what, I'm sorry ....., he did not assemble commanders and flagships before the battle? To share your brilliant ideas?

      So he actually told them everything he needed beforehand.
  16. +3
    19 May 2019 08: 15
    This fight was a priori lost, because the Russians were inferior to the Japanese in terms of a key indicator - speed. It will never be possible to level these things off with some other tricks such as rebuilding, because the enemy himself chooses where and how to hit him. A difference of another 1-2 knots would give ghostly chances (Togo would have to think how to use such a small advantage. It would be much more difficult in time - the example of the Battle in the Yellow Sea is indicative), then 5-6 knots is all. ..
    The author’s thoughts are quite interesting, therefore a plus! drinks hi
    1. +5
      19 May 2019 09: 54
      Rurikovich, so, in fact, no one blames Rozhestvensky for not defeating Togo utterly. But he solved the problem of the passage “with the loss of several ships”, which he set for himself, extremely unsuccessfully.
      1. I did not take the opportunity to secretly go into the strait, leaving the lights on hospital ships.
      2. He took with him transports that significantly limited the speed of the squadron.
      3. He refused from reconnaissance and therefore, at the time the battle began, our ships had a very uncomfortable formation.
      3. The battle was fought at 9 nodes, which allowed the Japanese methodically to shoot our lead ships, although the transports were already left on their own and the course of the EDB could be quite increased.
      4. He did not develop any transparent command transfer system after the flagship retired, because of which the Russian squadron was almost uncontrollable for almost the entire battle.
      In a word, as for me, the admiral did not make a single successful decision.
      1. +4
        19 May 2019 10: 24
        РЇ СЃРѕРіР »Р ° сен.
        Maybe dividing the squadron into two was the right decision: small groups are easier to manage, but the insufficient amount of training on maneuvers-rebuilding failed. Here you can "fill your hand" only with multiple repetitions in the exercises. Well, there was also little practice shooting. It was possible to break through with several battleships and cruisers. I don't think it would change the overall outcome of the war, but still ...
        1. +2
          19 May 2019 11: 12
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Here you can "fill your hand" only with multiple repetitions in exercises.

          Lesha, how much you do not train your rebuilding, the Japanese had superiority in speed. They equalized your superiority in heavy guns by being in the head of a column of Russians, receiving only from the head ships. Does it really not reach anyone that speed is the cornerstone of any naval battle. Yes
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Well, training shots were also few.

          Lesha, the 2nd TOE sailors fired much better than the 1st TOE sailors Yes
          1. +2
            19 May 2019 11: 17
            "Doesn't anyone realize that speed is the cornerstone of any naval battle" ///
            -----
            For example, I have reason to doubt. I will explain.
            The projectile flies much faster than the ship moves, no matter how you throw coal into the furnaces.
            If you teach commanders and spotting officers to shoot accurately from long distances, then at 5 knots you can damage the enemy.
            And if you smear, then 15 knots will not help to win the battle.
          2. +1
            19 May 2019 12: 45
            2nd TOE sailors fired much better than 1st TOE sailors yes


            this is not a fact, but only an insufficiently proved assumption
            we don’t forget that Togo came closer under Tsushima much closer than July 28.07.1904, XNUMX, so the probability of hitting increased many times, because the analogy is a curve
            1. +2
              19 May 2019 20: 53
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              this is not a fact, but only an insufficiently proved assumption

              Japanese ship hit statistics? No, I have not heard!
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              do not forget that Togo came closer under Tsushima much closer than 28.07.1904

              We better recall that the weather conditions in ZhM were much better than during Tsushima and that in the second phase of the battle Togo walked slowly and sadly along the Whittift line gradually getting closer to the 22 cable ones. That is, the conditions for shooting are almost ideal.
              1. 0
                19 May 2019 23: 22
                We better remember that the weather conditions in ZhM were much better than under Tsushima

                for a short distance, this difference in weather does not greatly affect)

                Japanese ship hit statistics? No, I have not heard!

                aha
                we don’t forget that Togo came closer under Tsushima much closer than July 28.07.1904, XNUMX, so the probability of hitting increased many times, because the analogy is a curve


                let's go back to the key issue of the Great Namesake article:
                once again because:
                do not try to get off the topic of answering a simple question: how did the British maneuvers of 1901-1903 prove that superiority in squadron speed by 2 knots is guaranteed by "crossing-T" against a correctly maneuvering enemy
                1. +1
                  20 May 2019 09: 18
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  let's go back to the key issue of the Great Namesake article:
                  once again because:

                  I have nothing against it. Come back. But without me.
                  And I wrote you exactly what I wrote: The second squadron in Tsushima shot much better than the first in the ZhM. Despite the fact that the conditions of the first were better.
                  1. 0
                    20 May 2019 10: 54
                    I would agree with you with a few reservations:

                    If the maneuvering scheme provided by Andrei from Chelyabinsk is correct, then, proceeding from his assumed rate of fire at the beginning of the battleThe second squadron in Tsushima fired much better than the first in ZhM. Despite the fact that weather the first conditions were better however, the distance of the Second is on average much less *.

                    [i] Note: However, a number of cases, such as the shooting of "DD" at a stationary destroyer, cast doubt on the good training of the gunners. There is also a lot of evidence from squadron officers about the unsatisfactory quality of fire during preparation for battle.


                    Have a nice day )
                    1. 0
                      20 May 2019 13: 37
                      Colleague, let me be curious, what are you judging about the shooting of Donskoy at Buynoye?
                    2. +2
                      20 May 2019 14: 03
                      Colleague, you confuse fundamentally important things. Yes, many on the second squadron and ZPR, including, considered possession of the materiel insufficient, as well as the number of training sessions. And in general, they did it for good reason, but ... with all this, they fired better than the gunners of the first squadron, although the latter were confident in their own professionalism. (The same Lutonin)
                      The reasons for this are different. On the one hand, while the second squadron had few trainings, the first, under the conditions of the blockade, didn’t have them at all, except for the rare loose-throw shooting. On the other hand, the second squadron was much better equipped with rangefinders, optical sights, etc. Well, how not to treat him, but Rozhestvensky was a competent artilleryman and knew his business.
                      1. -1
                        20 May 2019 16: 51
                        To be honest, I have no opinion on the issue of accuracy of firing of 2 TOE, which I am ready to present as final and accurate, a lot of assumptions need to be made
                        But for the categorical statement about a fundamentally better accuracy compared to 1 TOE, it seems to me that there are more assumptions to be made than I am ready to admit. hi
                      2. +2
                        21 May 2019 09: 00
                        No assumptions needed. There are 22 (or 23) hits in 4 hours, and half of this time "Mikasa" walked along the Russian formation, gradually reducing the distance. And there are 19 hits in 15 minutes while Togo made his loop.
                        The rest, including "memories", is talk in favor of the poor.
                      3. 0
                        21 May 2019 09: 18
                        And there are 19 hits in 15 minutes while Togo made his loop.


                        how many ships? 5 or 10? already a very important assumption

                        and most importantly, what is the average distance? reducing distance in arithmetic progression increases geometric accuracy

                        believe me, the number of assumptions regarding the accuracy of 2 TOE is much higher than the number of assumptions for performing the rebuild in one column

                        I offer an objective indicator: accuracy of 1 TOE / accuracy of the Japanese on 28.07 and accuracy of 2 TOE / accuracy of the Japanese under Tsushima

                        we build reasoning like this:
                        28.07 Japanese shot at 4 times more accurately - it’s easy to check

                        under Tsushima, significantly more than 10 shells of 12 "and much more than 30 shells of 6-8" hit the "Eagle"
                        - we will extend the "Eagle" 3 shells hits 12 "and 9 shells 6" - while I doubt

                        Let Mikasa get 22 shells in the beginning of the battle. But, IMHO, “Suvorov” and “Oslyabya” got more than 100 hits for two during the same time. Conclusion, 2 TOE fired relative to the Japanese worse than 1 TOE (of course, you can argue here)

                        But this is the subject of a monograph, not a comment)
                      4. 0
                        21 May 2019 09: 51
                        Some strange design ...
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        28.07 Japanese shot at 4 times more accurately - it’s easy to check

                        32 hits against a minimum of 150, i.e. almost five.
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        under Tsushima, significantly more than 10 shells of 12 "and much more than 30 shells of 6-8" hit the "Eagle"

                        And in "Oslyabyu" it is much less than in "Peresvet", but come on ...
                        In fact, we do not know the exact number of Japanese hits in Russian battleships, and therefore your design does not have practical value. Is it just like a mind game, but ... without me.
                        P.S. By the way, you noticed that some opponents often express one thought, which can be formulated as follows: - "Who are you in comparison with Kostenko and his knowledge?" And what if in this phrase the surname is replaced by Rozhdestvensky? For a moment, graduated fifth in the list of the naval corps, and in the first category, the Mikhailovskaya Artillery Academy! Maybe he also had knowledge about which we, due to our education, and life experience (well, none of us drove squadrons) do not have, not that not the slightest idea, but do not even suspect about their existence? Perhaps, in order to declare the stupidity of such a person, it is not enough to be able to draw graphs on graph paper?
                        No, it’s clear that it’s very easy for a modern manager to declare himself smarter than his ancestors on the grounds that he has the Internet and amuse his ego, but ...
                      5. 0
                        21 May 2019 10: 06
                        32 hits against a minimum of 150, i.e. almost five.


                        I agree, let 32 ​​and 150 = 5 times (did not take into account the shells hit 3 inches, sorry),
                        for Tsushima, I didn’t take them into account either (in my defense)

                        In fact, we do not know the exact number of Japanese hits in Russian battleships, and therefore your design does not have practical value. Is it just like a mind game, but ... without me.


                        the state of "Suvorov" was incomparably worse than the state of "Eagle", hence the conclusion - at least 100 hits at the beginning of the battle, in my opinion, is logical

                        Maybe he also had knowledge about which, by virtue of our education, and life experience (well, none of us had led squadrons), we did not even have the slightest idea, but did not even suspect their existence?


                        already answered dear Comrade exactly the same question:

                        I thought about it. But such nuances did not seem to be voiced by him during the investigation, right? And no one from the commission of inquiry also seemed to be voiced, right?
                        ... And I also thought that ZPR threatened the gallows with a bubble, albeit purely theoretically, because they had to write down several volumes of testimonies with such nuances if they had at least some objective data on this.


                        Perhaps, to declare stupidity of such a person it is not enough to be able to draw graphs on graph paper?


                        not enough. declare stupidity is a man on the basis of his inability, of course, this is no reason to talk about the stupidity of an ordinary person (not everyone needs it), but for the admiral it is absolutely necessary - he doesn’t know = unsuitable, well, or, in extreme cases, he doesn’t find the one who draws)

                        it’s very easy for a modern manager to declare himself smarter than his ancestors on the grounds that he has the Internet


                        I'm not a very manager, this time
                        the Internet makes us incomparably erudite ancestors, these are two
                        and where am I saying fundamentally new compared with the members of the Investigative Commission and the persons called to it? are three
                      6. +1
                        21 May 2019 10: 22
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        at least 100 hits at the beginning of the battle, in my opinion, it is logical

                        No. Let's look at an example with "Oslyabey" and "Peresvet".
                        in fact, it is not the number of hits that matters, but their specific locations and specific damage. Well, for example, getting into the GBP, into a coal pit, and into a shell elevator.
                        As for the commission of inquiry, then ... you see, if it consisted of, say, honorary members of the Imperial Academy of Arts, then, most likely, it would make sense to clarify the nuances. And for professionals (and not for you and me), everything is clear already. Well, so ... theoretically :)
                      7. 0
                        21 May 2019 12: 34
                        to professionals (and not to you and me), everything is clear already.


                        unsuccessful choice of squadron commander, is that the conclusion?

                        And it’s clear to us. Score 12: 0.

                        Then hi

                        I'm leaving on a business trip, I’m ready to continue will be relevant article
                      8. +2
                        21 May 2019 09: 59
                        What's wrong with you? I start to doubt ...
                        Andrei Shmelev writes .... I propose an objective indicator: accuracy of 1 TOE / accuracy of Japanese 28.07 and accuracy of 2 TOE / accuracy of Japanese under Tsushima

                        Where is the objectivity? In your opinion, we do not know the accuracy of 1 and 2 ToE, but we immediately use unknown quantities in a proportion that ... is unknown for what with respect to the controversial statement.
                        Conclusion, 2 TOE shot relative to the Japanese worse than 1 TOE

                        And how from such a conclusion (let’s say that) it is concluded that 2 TOU not shot better than 1 TOU? This is the mystery of your logic))
                      9. +1
                        21 May 2019 10: 23
                        Quote: anzar
                        Where is the objectivity?

                        What was it? request
                      10. +1
                        21 May 2019 10: 53
                        What was it?

                        Heh, it was necessary to write "said objectivity" (I offer an objective indicator ...))) How is your "balkaniada" progressing? Received my second letter?
                      11. 0
                        21 May 2019 10: 57
                        the second book has begun, but still far from the Balkans :)
                        A letter - it seems not, or are you talking about something more recent?
                      12. 0
                        21 May 2019 10: 59
                        about something older?

                        no, from May 7th. Again in spam?)))
                      13. 0
                        21 May 2019 11: 40
                        Train? Then I got and even made a separate folder.
                      14. 0
                        21 May 2019 12: 30
                        Where is the objectivity? In your accuracy, 1 and 2 ToE do not know


                        we know the accuracy in the battle on July 28.07, I wrote it like that, you want, read, for example, Andrei from Chelyabinsk, he has plates that show the consumption of shells of each ship and hit into each ship

                        We do not know the accuracy at Tsushima, we can only assume, however, for example, it is known that the Eagle received hits from more than 10 shells in 12 "and much more than 30 shells of 6-8" caliber (roughly, let it be 55 hits 6-12 " )
                        according to the state of the battleships, it is clear that the Suvorov received at least a double portion in comparison with the Eagle, and so on

                        To reach parity with 1 TOE, it is necessary, IMHO, at least 70 hits 6-12 "in the Japanese, and better much more, will you count?

                        I'm leaving on a business trip, I’m ready to continue will be relevant article

                        hi
                      15. 0
                        21 May 2019 14: 42
                        We do not know the accuracy at Tsushima, we can only assume, however, for example, it is known that the Eagle received hits from more than 10 shells in 12 "...

                        To reach parity with 1 TOE, it is necessary, IMHO, at least 70 hits 6-12 "in the Japanese ...

                        ???? In one case, you established a proportion between warm and soft and put it forward as a universal law? Let me remind you that the dispute was about "who shot better / more precisely, 1 or 2 ToE, and not" how the Japanese shot ".
                        Successful business trip.
                      16. 0
                        21 May 2019 15: 39
                        So for sure, proportion. It’s just that it’s difficult to take into account all the shooting conditions, so I made a proportion where the Japanese assigned the same accuracy), although this is not entirely correct, since the Japanese trained a lot in advance of Tsushima. My idea here is this: whoever has a better relative accuracy rate against the Japanese, he shot better. IMHO, it is quite logical. Threat. thank
                      17. 0
                        21 May 2019 10: 50
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        No assumptions needed. There are 22 (or 23) hits in 4 hours, and half of this time "Mikasa" walked along the Russian formation, gradually reducing the distance. And there are 19 hits in 15 minutes while Togo made his loop.
                        The rest, including "memories", is talk in favor of the poor.

                        Great answer!
                      18. 0
                        21 May 2019 12: 36
                        Must be considered hits for the whole battle

                        The rest, including "memories", is talk in favor of the poor.
                      19. +1
                        21 May 2019 14: 23
                        There is nothing easier. Campbell already counted everything :)))
                        1st and 2nd Japanese squads received 156 hits. Of which 47 are heavy shells, most of which are 12 "http://battleships.spb.ru/Tsusima/Tsusima3.html
                        A total of more than 230 hits.
                      20. 0
                        21 May 2019 15: 01
                        I will answer in a nutshell a lot of hits three-inch
                        Campbell did not read this article
                        I read it on the weekend, check if I'm ready to apologize
                      21. 0
                        21 May 2019 15: 02
                        thanks for the info good
                      22. 0
                        21 May 2019 15: 49
                        There is an analysis on the site there: the Japanese have 530 hits in 6-12 ", and the Russians a little more than 100, I need to think a little) thanks, very interesting)
                      23. +1
                        21 May 2019 15: 57
                        There is one. The Japanese, too, shot better than in the BM or under Ulsan :)
                        Again, Oslyabya is sinking - minus her cannon. "Suvorov" is out of order and does not shoot at anyone either.
                        Here is another article about the Sangar Strait: https: //cyberleninka.ru/article/v/k-voprosu-o-vozmozhnosti-proryva-eskadry-admirala-rozhestvenskogo-cherez-proliv-tsugaru
                      24. -1
                        24 May 2019 08: 56
                        Here is another article about the Sangar Strait: https: //cyberleninka.ru/article/v/k-voprosu-o-vozmozhnosti-proryva-eskadry-admirala-rozhestvenskogo-cherez-proliv-tsugaru


                        the article is good, but in fact it was worth considering two options for a breakthrough:
                        a week to engage in evolution in the East China Sea, and then taking coal again, to rush through Tsushima,
                        to go through the strait of Laperouse,
                      25. -1
                        24 May 2019 00: 07
                        Good evening! I read the whole trip - a lot of questions.
                        Frankly speaking, Kostenko's method of evaluating hits is very crooked, since a 12 "shell can leave a hole in the side of 3x3 feet, or maybe 10x7 feet. I never argued here.
                        But according to the article, I have even more questions than Kostenko.
                        It turns out so far:
                        2 TOE hit: 12 "- 36 times, 8-10" - 11, 6 "- less than 60, 3" - about 40.
                        The respected "Comrade" wrote that the "Eagle" spent only 50 shells in 12 "for the entire day's battle. Extrapolating the value for other battleships, we get that 2 TOE fired 250 shells in 12", which gives an accuracy of 14,5% (in which is extremely difficult to immediately believe - an incredibly cool figure), also the respected "Comrade" wrote that the "Eagle" spent only 345 shells in 6 during the whole day's battle. Extrapolating the value for other battleships, we get that 2 TOE fired even 1400 shells in 6 ", which gives an accuracy of just over 4%. Here you have to think hard.
                        Shl. "Nikolai 1" used up 2/3 of its ammunition load, that is, relatively incomparably more than "Eagle" - is it possible to extrapolate "Eagle"?
                        I am confused by the percentage of hits in the "Eagle": 8-12 "- 16, 6" - 36. The ratio of hits is not very similar to the Russian one.
                        I am extremely confused by the chronology of hits of 2 TOE: from 13-50 to 14-05 2 TOE in 15 minutes (!!!) stuck 14 shells of 6 into Mikasa, which is a FOURTH of all hits with this caliber for the whole battle - what a game And what did the 2 TOE gunners do for the rest of the time after 14-50 approximately?
                        It just dawned on me that Nicholas 1 had at least three 229-mm rounds in the Japanese (I kind of remembered about his at least 3 hits out of 4), which makes him the Russian champion in shooting efficiency by a huge margin.
                        Campbell is a very respected historian, however, I was shocked by his approach to estimating the number of hits in "Borodino". Is it possible to assume that half a dozen hits of 12 "will be fatal for" Alexander 3 "? - Yes, it is possible, so we can assume that the number of hits in him and" Borodino "was comparable to the" Eagle ". This is not a scientific campaign: to draw golden bullets and limit them.

                        In general, I went to look for the original text of the article, because ... it is amazing, but there are a lot of questions to it.

                        Thank you! good I don’t understand how I missed her before.
                      26. -1
                        24 May 2019 09: 14
                        there is still an analysis of Valery Feinberg on the site (I don’t know who it is) - I’m getting it from him

                        the Japanese were hit at least 400 times by shells in 6 "
                        the Russians were hit less than 60 times with 6 "shells
                        Russians shot faster
                        this means that accuracy was comparable wassat

                        in general, my question is this: do we analyze the size of the holes again (there is no better one yet), are there equally good references to damage and accuracy under Ulsan and Shantung?

                        Shl. don't get me wrong, I would like to be objective, but the data of Campbell, very respected by me, is statistically shocking, so I consider it necessary to understand them thoroughly before believing and changing my free point of view, plus the question: there are data on the number of 6 "and 3" Japanese shells on ships before the battle of Tsushima?

                        Which makes me doubt Campbell this time. For example, "Eagle" received ...
                        и 21 small-caliber or fragmentation hits

                        - very funny,

                    3. 0
                      20 May 2019 14: 16
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      Have a nice day )

                      And you.
          3. 0
            19 May 2019 13: 06
            Quote: Rurikovich
            Lesha, the 2nd TOE sailors fired much better than the 1st TOE sailors

            This assumption is refuted by the official testimony of officers of the 2nd TOE, starting with Rozhestvensky - from the testimony of Rozhestvensky "... All the ships fired badly ... the officers could not practice fire control ..."
          4. +3
            19 May 2019 22: 14
            They equalized your superiority in heavy guns with a column of Russians in your head, receiving only from head ships

            This is not so, the reason is R.'s order to shoot (only) at the head (Mikasa). Those. "unrecognized genius" leading the squadron with 9uz. ordered to shoot, as if crossing T did)) As soon as this order was stopped (due to impossibility), the Kamimura cruisers received hits.
            In general, an order for everyone is stupid (traditional without taking into account ...), Mikasa is perhaps the most protected target. A slow column can be ordered to shoot at the end piece - such a crossing is the opposite! And the goal is "soft", it is displayed faster ... And it is better, one by one ... But let's see what "explanations / justifications" the author will give about this in the sequels. Those about rebuilding before the battle, unexpectedly for me (did not think), sound logical.
        2. +1
          19 May 2019 20: 26
          Maybe splitting the squadron in two was the right decision: smaller groups are easier to manage

          Rozhdestvensky had SOMEONE to "manage groups".
          I already mentioned this: Rozhestvensky did not have admirals. For the entire linear part, he had ONE admiral in the campaign - Felkersam - and himself. But he went to battle alone.
          And it would be necessary - two admirals per squad. (the Japanese had it this way --- at least believe me, at least check it)

          So there was no one to manage the troops.

          And even after both flagships apparently went out of business, the two remaining admirals --- Enquist and Nebogatov --- did not hasten to take command at all. (About the quality of these admirals!)

          So there was no one to manage the troops. Because Christmas and gave precisely such an order (absolutely right, IMHO)
          1. +2
            19 May 2019 22: 27
            Quote: AK64
            And even after both flagships apparently went out of business, the two remaining admirals --- Enquist and Nebogatov --- did not hasten to take command at all. (About the quality of these admirals!)

            No matter how many there were, Rozetsvensky would probably have ignored them as well as Nebogatov and Enquist. Nebogatov pointed out that there was no discussion of the impending battle. With no one.
            1. -1
              21 May 2019 09: 21
              No matter how many there were, Rozetsvensky would probably have ignored them as well as Nebogatov and Enquist. Nebogatov pointed out that there was no discussion of the impending battle. With no one.


              Stop lying, grimacing and fantasizing!
              There is a fact --- Rozhdestvensky did not have admirals. It is a fact.
              Rozhdestvensky took all battle-worthy ships of Russia --- but at the same time at least 3 admirals (!!!) were not found on his squadron (despite the fact that there were about 70 people in Russia) And this is also a fact.
              As a result: talking about some kind of action in groups is pointless: because commanders are corny to groups (squads).

              Your same antics and fantasies have nothing to do with the matter.
      2. +1
        19 May 2019 10: 56
        Quote: Ivanchester
        In a word, as for me, the admiral did not make a single successful decision.

        laughing
        We can now argue that after the fact, whether the right-of-way acted correctly or incorrectly, again, after the fact, we think of ourselves as strategists and the most intelligent.
        And you put yourself in the place of ZPR in the conditions in which he was, with the data that he operated on, do you act the same way as he did or otherwise? wink
        Personally, I always try to look at things as they are, and before accusing a person of something, I try to maximally imagine what he was doing. And only after that I draw conclusions.
        Personally, I almost did not like everything that ZPR did in that tragedy, but this does not mean that it was necessary to act differently at that moment.
        The whole point is that if you had not racked your brains, the Russians would have lost to the Japanese anyway, because no matter how they had an advantage in speed they had !!! Take the transports with you or not, deploy your ships with a front line or not, but the whole conglomerate of ships that reached the Strait of Tsushima WAS THE APRIORI QUIET JAPANESE! The rest is all idle chatter! And I read comments on this subject with a smile smile In any battle or battle at sea, speed is a parameter on which all calculations are held, all possible consequences. AT SPEED KEEP EVERYTHING! This is an axiom Yes
        The author sets out his point of view, and respect for this. You have your own opinion - and I always respect people with my opinion if they consistently uphold it.
        And the problem is that no matter what ZPR thinks, the Japanese were on its way, the Japanese were faster, the Japanese had enough time to find, catch up and dictate their conditions, that you don’t invent there. But ZPR kept in mind the results of the battle of July 28.07, and believed that his ships would simply endure a many-hour battle, even at a lower speed. But alas ...
        And even any of the commentators who thinks he is the most intelligent and sensible will lose that battle, because that Russian squadron could not go at a speed of 13-14 knots in order to have at least some kind of illusory chance of a breakthrough. And do ZPR reconnaissance, don’t do it - it won’t change anything. Because the Japanese reconcile any intelligence results with superior speed and timing of engagement. Take it for granted smile
        hi
        1. +4
          19 May 2019 11: 28
          Quote: Rurikovich
          We can now argue that after the fact, whether the right-of-way acted correctly or incorrectly, again, after the fact, we think of ourselves as strategists and the most intelligent.


          Dear Rurikovich.
          The question is different. Why, having seen the turn of Admiral Togo H., Admiral Rozhestvensky Z. P. realizing that he was in a tactically disadvantaged position, while seeing that he did not have time to complete the maneuver, he didn’t take any action. He was at that time the commander of the connection of ships, the chief of the general military school. What is confusion, not competence? What happened in the future is a consequence of his inaction.
          1. +3
            19 May 2019 12: 00
            Quote: 27091965i
            Why, having seen the turn of Admiral Togo H., Admiral Rozhestvensky Z. P. realizing that he was in a tactically disadvantaged position, while seeing that he did not have time to complete the maneuver, he didn’t take any action.

            WHAT ?! Stop the time in order to allow the ships to complete the maneuver or to develop the course to full, to again allow the ships to complete the maneuver. You were caught at the most interesting moment, when you already started and didn’t finish? So put yourself in the place of ZPR, when he made a mistake and there is no time to correct the mistake made. When the enemy is in your head and has an advantage in speed. What can you do when trump cards are not in your hands? You cannot do anything. Nothing. Rozhdestvensky understood this. In this case, the adversary is faster and nothing depends on you. You already have to come to terms with this dogma, and not try to look for a black cat in a place where it does not exist. And any tactical change of the system by Rozhdestvensky is leveled by the speed of the Japanese, what do you not invent there. This is an axiom hi
            1. +3
              19 May 2019 12: 43
              When the enemy is in your head and has an advantage in speed. What can you do when trump cards are not in your hands?


              28.07.1904/3/XNUMX Togo had an advantage of XNUMX knots over Witgeft
              even the Great Namesake does not attempt to reduce the potential speed of 2 TOE to less than 13 knots
              the speed of the TSP of Togo is known as 16 knots (as of 28.07.1904/XNUMX/XNUMX)
              28.07.1904/XNUMX/XNUMX Togo was very far from "crossing-T"

              Attention to the question: if on 28.07.1904/3/XNUMX the advantage of XNUMX knots did not even come close to qualify for the "crossing-T", what would not have happened under Tsushima?
              1. +2
                19 May 2019 20: 44
                Speed ​​9 knots. The Japanese have 15 knots.
                1. 0
                  19 May 2019 23: 24
                  Speed ​​9 knots. The Japanese have 15 knots.


                  under the command of Nebogatov at night were 13 - materiel, sir
            2. +1
              19 May 2019 12: 46
              Quote: Rurikovich
              WHAT ?! Stop the time in order to allow the ships to complete the maneuver or to develop the course to full, to again allow the ships to complete the maneuver.


              He did not command a sailing fleet, where everything depends on the wind. The rotation of Admiral Togo H., the distance between the squadrons gave him a chance to evade the battle and begin maneuvering to rebuild the squadron.
              1. +1
                19 May 2019 19: 22
                Quote: 27091965i
                The rotation of Admiral Togo H., the distance between the squadrons gave him a chance to evade the battle and begin maneuvering to rebuild the squadron.

                What would it change? request Don’t avoid Rozhdestvensky’s fight, what rebuilding you don’t think - Togo will in any case take the position he needs for the battle. In any!!! Togo has an advantage in speed, so he chooses not what the Russians oppose him, but what he needs. Rozhdestvensky will start to rebuild - That is enough by turning all the friends to move on and again take that position, which is necessary for effective fire.
                Let me draw an analogy from modern film culture - "It's over, Anakin, I'm higher" smile
                And no changes and evasion of the battle could not have avoided what is already history hi
                1. +2
                  19 May 2019 20: 18
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  What would it change? Don’t avoid Rozhdestvensky’s fight, what rebuilding you don’t think - Togo will in any case take the position he needs for the battle.


                  In order to take the necessary position, the admiral of Togo H., when maneuvering, it is necessary to engage in battle with the squadron of Admiral Rozhestvensky Z. P., at those speeds the Russian squadron had the opportunity within 30-40 minutes to shoot with the Japanese fleet to more or less acceptable conditions, while determining further actions. The squadron must be commanded. This is the meaning of maneuver, the sea is not a ring.
          2. -1
            19 May 2019 20: 31
            The question is different. Why, having seen the turn of Admiral Togo H., Admiral Rozhestvensky Z. P. realizing that he was in a tactically disadvantaged position, while seeing that he did not have time to complete the maneuver, he didn’t take any action.



            And WHAT exactly should he do? There are not many options. And in a naval battle between the decision and the beginning of its implementation, it takes about 15 minutes --- which also needs to be taken into account.
            1. +2
              19 May 2019 20: 52
              Quote: AK64
              And WHAT exactly should he do? There are not many options


              Choose which option you like. Developed and tested in practice by Admiral G. Butakov

              1. 0
                19 May 2019 21: 06
                None of these maneuvers could be accomplished by the Russian squadron.
                Moreover, none of these maneuvers could have been carried out by the Japanese squadron either.
                And the British could not.

                I am a supporter of the simple version that Rozhestvensky, before the battle, tried to rebuild at least the 1st detachment into the front line. (not so stupid in the sense of trying to avoid the "crossing T") So how, did it work out well? And such "figure skating" as in the pictures ..... This is from the realm of fantasy.

                The only thing that Rzhestvensky could: instead of trying to stand in front of the left column --- give the order to this left column to line up behind the right one. But here, too, Rozhestvensky's actions are understandable: (1) he tried to go ON the enemy, and (2) the 2nd detachment was so slow that it would have been attached for an hour. So Rozhestvensky's attempt is understandable and justified here too --- it's another matter that "it didn't work out"
                1. +2
                  19 May 2019 21: 33
                  Quote: AK64
                  And such "figure skating" as in the pictures ..... This is from the realm of fantasy.


                  Look at the maneuvering of the German fleet in the Battle of Jutland or Admiral Togo H., not everything worked out, but at least he tried.
                  1. -1
                    19 May 2019 21: 59
                    in none of the named cases there is this "figure skating" as in the pictures.

                    The Japanese generally maneuvered in detachment (which is correct, by the way)

                    The Russians, however, could not have done this, not even because they are clumsy, but because the squadron is a Tatar horde of completely different types of "samples"
                    1. +2
                      20 May 2019 07: 20
                      Quote: AK64
                      in none of the named cases there is this "figure skating" as in the pictures.


                      Carefully look at the battle patterns and the description of maneuvering.
                      " A combat charter, not a dogma, but a guide to action"

                      The Japanese generally maneuvered in detachment (which is correct, by the way)

                      The Russians, however, could not have done this, not even because they are clumsy, but because the squadron is a Tatar horde of completely different types of "samples"


                      I think it’s easier for you to read the works of Admiral Butakov G.I. than to me to retell them to you.
        2. +5
          19 May 2019 13: 21
          Quote: Rurikovich
          Personally, I always try to look at things as they are, and before accusing a person of something, I try to maximally imagine what he was doing. And only after that I draw conclusions.

          He did much less than a naval commander should be, who is responsible for the fleet, ships, thousands of officers and sailors, even for the honor of this fleet and state. If he did not believe in victory, then everything had to be done to avoid a battle in unfavorable conditions. During the months of sailing, one could try to achieve diplomatic support for a long stay at the port to Tsushima, try to separate the slow transports. In particular, Nebogatov seriously considered a campaign in Vladivostok around Japan, considered it possible, based on his experience, including the loading of coal. It was a shock for him, as well as for Enquist, that there were no meetings with both admirals and officers in general regarding the strategy and tactics of 2TO operations. All his chosen strategy is the Nord-Ost 23 course. That’s all.
          1. 0
            19 May 2019 19: 33
            Quote: sevtrash
            In particular, Nebogatov seriously considered a campaign in Vladivostok around Japan, considered it possible, based on his experience, including the loading of coal

            Well, do not wait for 2 TOE at the estimated time, Togo would go to Sungarsky Ave and wait there. Having previously deployed a network of their sentinel auxiliary cruisers. Go him less. In any Rozhdestvensky again pass through the narrow straits, where a meeting with the Japanese is inevitable. I would go through Laperuza Ave. - Togo would be there too. WHAT DOES IT CHANGE?
            Or all the boron cheese due to the fact that there was no such meeting? So Rozhdestvensky thereby took all responsibility upon himself and was sure that, based on the results of the battle in the Yellow Sea, he was stupidly being sold to Vladivostok with an allowable loss of several ships. The enemy was simply much faster and of a different opinion. hi Banal underestimation of the enemy
            1. +1
              19 May 2019 20: 57
              As far as I remember, the Sangar Strait was mined. But even if not, it’s long and narrow in it you won’t maneuver at all ... that is, the output is the same crossing.
              1. +1
                19 May 2019 22: 40
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                As far as I remember, the Sangar Strait was mined. But even if not, it’s long and narrow in it you won’t maneuver at all ... that is, the output is the same crossing.

                I repeat once again - Nebogatov and his headquarters worked on this option, taking into account their experience in that area and considered it feasible. For his squad, really. Which included low-speed ships.
                1. +2
                  20 May 2019 09: 34
                  1) The Sangar Strait from this was not ceased to be mined.
                  2) Nebogatov, in fact, was planning a breakthrough by the Laperouse Strait
                  In view of the fact that the daily consumption of coal on armadillos is ber. the defense was stubbornly demanding the flagship’s requirements all the time and, already in Djibouti, it was brought up to 32 - 30 tons (sometimes Apnksin also has 28 tons), and the full fuel supply, instead of the normal one in 380 tons, was increased to 520, it was possible to pass without risk without renewing the fuel supply on the armor. ber. defense up to 3000 miles (15 X 30 = 450 tons; 15 days by 200 miles = 3000 miles). This led to the assumption, if we do not know where the 2th squadron is, to go, after the third rendezvous near Singapore, first to Turan Bay on the Annam Shore and there again try using the telegraph to find out where the 2th squadron is. Two German steamers with coal, about which I have already spoken, were sent there.
                  If they didn’t know anything, it was decided to go through the Balintang Canal to the northern islands of the Philippine archipelago and there, using deaf bays, coal could not be loaded from its transports.
                  Upon exiting from there, it was supposed to tow armadillos ber. defense over a distance of 1500 miles by transport, exactly to the Yokohama parallel, 200 - 250 miles from the Japanese coast. At this point, tugboats would have been handed over and all the ships under their pairs should have passed the 8 nodal passage through the 4 Kuril Pass and, having climbed north to the coast of Sakhalin, try to load more coal so that they could then go along Sakhalin and through the Laperuzov Strait in full swing. From the Korsakov post it was supposed to cross the Sea of ​​Japan at the shortest distance to our seasoned coast and then go along it to Vladivostok.
                  Hope was assigned mainly to the thick fogs prevailing in May; it was decided to send the transports around Sakhalin at the mouth of the Amur River, ordering them to unload there, and in extreme cases, throw away so much cargo that the sediment allowed to enter the estuary.

                  Well, five warships and four vehicles, it is much smaller than the entire Second and Third squadron.
                  1. -1
                    21 May 2019 11: 38
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    1) The Sangar Strait from this was not ceased to be mined.

                    The Sangarsky Strait was not mined - it was only supposed to lay out floating minefields in it, but with proper counteraction (cruising reconnaissance) and the current flow, the effectiveness of floating minefields tended to zero, according to Kelvin.
                    1. -1
                      21 May 2019 14: 32
                      Quote: Jura 27
                      Strait of Sangar was not mined

                      This is what you think.
                      https://cyberleninka.ru/article/v/k-voprosu-o-vozmozhnosti-proryva-eskadry-admirala-rozhestvenskogo-cherez-proliv-tsugaru
                      1. +1
                        21 May 2019 18: 03
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Strait of Sangar was not mined

                        This is what you think.
                        https://cyberleninka.ru/article/v/k-voprosu-o-vozmozhnosti-proryva-eskadry-admirala-rozhestvenskogo-cherez-proliv-tsugaru

                        The barrage of floating mines, its duration is minimal, come the Russian squadron a couple of days later and the barrage sailed away (and 2 TOE would have arrived later than the Japanese had calculated).
                        In addition, floating mines with visible floats, they are easy to detect and get around, in addition, the Russians were ready to set up mines with floating mines (even in the Tsushima Strait).
                        It’s almost impossible to deploy quickly, from the minzag, with sufficient cruising intelligence from the Russians.
                      2. 0
                        22 May 2019 09: 00
                        Colleague, let's split flies and cutlets.
                        1) The Sangar Channel could be mined in principle, and the Japanese did.
                        Xnumx)
                        3) While the Russian squadron would vandalize with mines, Togo armadillos would have been waiting for it from the other end of the strait.
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        In addition, floating mines with visible floats are easy to spot.

                        It didn't work at Petropavlovsk.
                      3. +2
                        23 May 2019 16: 59
                        In principle, it could not be mined by stationary minefields, those that are not visible from the surface of the water.
                        The Russians were ready (before the Tsushima battle) to draft the visible floating mines (their bundles). Such mine productions could be circumvented, in addition, floating mine productions are very short-lived. Therefore, valandanya is minimal, even if the productions are done on time. And if not on time (this would happen in real life), then it’s impossible to put floating barriers from the minzag, with normal cruising intelligence of the Russians.
                        According to "Petropavlovsk" - this is amerovskaya picture, it is most likely that "Koriu-maru" set up a stationary mine fence. there is a strong ebb-tide, - the floating fence would have carried away from the place of setting.
            2. +3
              19 May 2019 22: 38
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Banal underestimation of the enemy

              Which led to a crushing defeat of 2TOE. This is a completely non-banal mistake with such consequences. The thing is different, Rozhestvensky hoped that in the extreme case he would be stopped by order on the eve of the battle, he did not want to insist on self-esteem to end the campaign, but the revolution, general dissatisfaction with the authorities and a series of defeats in the war with Japan, made it impossible for the authorities to withdraw the squadron, since then all blame would have been placed on this very authority. A possible sacrifice has become acceptable. What, apparently, Rozhdestvensky agreed with. And he led to slaughter. Nevertheless, he was a politician. Like an extraordinary person. But not the naval commander who would need 2TOE at that moment. hi
              1. 0
                19 May 2019 23: 14
                Quote: sevtrash
                The thing is different, Rozhestvensky hoped that in the extreme case he would be stopped by order on the eve of the battle, he did not want to insist on self-esteem to end the campaign, but the revolution, general dissatisfaction with the authorities and a series of defeats in the war with Japan, made it impossible for the authorities to withdraw the squadron, since then all blame would have been placed on this very authority.

                Then what is all the fuss about !? request hi ZPR, faithfully fulfilled the desire for power at what? wink
            3. +3
              20 May 2019 00: 41
              Well, do not wait for 2 TOE at the estimated time, Togo would go to Sungarsky Ave and wait there.

              And there was no calculation time at all for Heihatiro Togo. After all, Rozhdestvensky pickled the squadron at Madagascar for several months, then at Vietnam, and could also linger on some islands. By the way, even before entering the Korea Strait, he delayed the squadron for a whole day, ostensibly for maneuvers, but in fact, to join the battle on the emperor’s namesday. So to expect the exact time of the approach of the Russian squadron, the Japanese had no way.
        3. +2
          19 May 2019 22: 24
          In any battle or battle at sea, speed is a parameter on which all calculations are held, all possible consequences

          Varyag fight? Fight Count Spee at La Plata?
          AT SPEED KEEP EVERYTHING! This is an axiom

          Invalid))
          1. +2
            19 May 2019 22: 31
            Quote: anzar
            Invalid))

            belay
            "Varyag" had a lower speed than "Asama", Langsdorf at La Plata, well, could not throw off the more fast English cruisers from the tail, so he simply went to lick his wounds. The question is - what is it wrong? I'm not talking about the battle in the Yellow Sea and Tsushima - the factor of superiority in speed and gaining advantages thanks to it is obvious!
            I repeat the question - why is it wrong?
            1. +2
              19 May 2019 22: 59
              "Varyag" had a lower speed than "Asam"

              Where does it follow? Ah, from the post-war testimony)) It seems that you were plotting here about such ... But the point is that if he had a lot, it would hardly help him. And ETO contradicts your axiom.
              I repeat the question - why is it wrong?

              Because you absolutize speed, explaining ALL to it. And this is far from true. Racing ships do not win the battle, you can only escape))
              1. -1
                21 May 2019 14: 54
                Quote: anzar
                Where does it follow? Ah, from the post-war testimony))

                This follows from the real technical condition of the cruiser and constant repairs of the machine.
    2. -2
      19 May 2019 10: 18
      This fight was a priori lost, because the Russians were inferior to the Japanese in terms of a key indicator - speed. It will never be possible to level these things off with some other tricks such as rebuilding, because the enemy himself chooses where and how to hit him.

      This is a widespread misconception. Andrei Shmelev correctly wrote that the attacking squadron was forced to maneuver along a large radius, and the defending squadron was forced to maneuver along a small radius. It was enough for Rozhdestvensky to order all the ships to keep their nose on the enemy and then the turning radius of the Russian ships would be a maximum of 3 cables, while the Japanese squadron would have to go around the Russian squadron with a radius of 30 cables - and this is a tenfold difference and that means even a slightly lower speed of the Russian ships did not help would the Japanese put a wand over T.
      However, holding their noses at the enemy, the Russian ships themselves became at a disadvantage in sticks over T. The fact is that the Russian ship with its nose can fire only with its bow turret, while the Japanese ship with both of them: it would seem monstrously unprofitable - this position gives the Japanese double advantage.
      But there is such a phenomenon that all inhabitants do not know. The fact is that the ship located in the position of the lower stick T very quickly approaches the enemy and he does not have the ability to shoot. Because all gunners are very fond of firing at constant or slowly changing distances. But on the contrary, the Russian ship approaching perpendicularly very quickly approaches, the distance changes all the time and it is almost impossible to shoot at it accurately. Therefore, in this position, the firing of both squadrons will be mainly in milk.
      And only when two ships or two squadrons get closer to a distance of about 10 cable ones - this is where the monstrous beating begins!
      However, this cannot happen, because literally in a couple of minutes, with a mutual perpendicular position, the ships will move closer to the pistol distance 3-4 cables will start torpedoing and ramming each other at close range! And on the battlefield there will immediately be several heavily damaged and sinking Japanese and Russian ships. And the Japanese are not profitable. Therefore, the only way out for the Japanese is to turn stern to the Russian ships and try to escape. And only in this they can help the higher speed of the Japanese armored cruisers. At the same time, the first Japanese armored detachment in which four armadillos with a real speed of 16 knots - which is equal to the Russian - will actually lag behind and will be under the shooting of the entire Russian fleet.
      And it is precisely this maneuver "shameful flight from the Russian fleet" that Andrei from Chelyabinsk calls "commanding the distance" - that is, simply running away, trying to break away from the Russian fleet.
      Of course, you are all used to the fact that Rozhdestvensky put the fleet in the wake and the entire Japanese squadron overtook him with all of their 12 ships, in fact, only 2-3 of our leading ships were beaten.
      But if a smart man commanded the Russian fleet, they could defeat the Japanese.
      1. +2
        19 May 2019 11: 02
        Quote: geniy
        Andrei Shmelev correctly wrote that the attacking squadron was forced to maneuver over a large radius, and the defending one - over a small

        And what, the whole battle you will cut the dimes in a circle ?! laughing laughing laughing Ogo units were more focused and freely maneuvered with turns "all of a sudden", because the superiority in speed gave them more variability than walking in a circle wink
        Quote: geniy
        But if a smart man commanded the Russian fleet, they could defeat the Japanese.

        I beg of you lol winked Virtual reality sitting on the couch is many times different from being on the bridge and operating only in what you see wink
        1. 0
          19 May 2019 11: 11
          Yes, I slightly agree with you:
          I beg you lol winked Virtual reality sitting on the couch is many times different from being on the bridge
          - it is really much easier to reason in a calm environment, and you forgot to mention the factor of afterglow, when every history buff can thoroughly know where any enemy stolen and his condition were. However, instead of just himself, Rozhestvensky had a whole headquarters of dozens of smart officers who could help him think - another thing is that he did not take advantage of this.
          1. +2
            19 May 2019 11: 17
            Quote: geniy
            However, instead of just himself, Rozhestvensky had a whole headquarters of dozens of smart officers who could help him think - another thing is that he did not take advantage of this.

            You stood on the bridge next to the headquarters of Rozhestvensky, to assert this? wink
            Lacquering is dangerous in order to give descendants reason to think differently from their ancestors. We can only analyze and make sure that this does not happen again, and not grind the bones of those who actually participated in this event.
            1. +3
              19 May 2019 13: 28
              Quote: Rurikovich
              You stood on the bridge next to the headquarters of Rozhestvensky, to assert this? wink
              Lacquering is dangerous in order to give descendants reason to think differently from their ancestors.

              There are official testimonies of 2TOE fleet officers to this. Even with admirals Rozhestvensky did not consider it necessary to consult and discuss, he did not ask for an opinion.
              1. 0
                19 May 2019 19: 47
                Quote: sevtrash
                There are official testimonies of 2TOE fleet officers on this

                So they will all blame on the admiral! There is nothing surprising. Still lucky to have survived.
                Quote: sevtrash
                Even with admirals Rozhestvensky did not consider it necessary to consult and discuss, he did not ask for an opinion.

                Have you served in the army? Each order was discussed with subordinates before its implementation?
                Not knowing the future and being confident that you are right about the chances of success, having the order of the Emperor and the GMH in the safe, will you consult with subordinates? They consult and consult with possible varieties of events. Rozhdestvensky had options besides an irreversible meeting with the Japanese, especially knowing the real possibilities of half of his ships? In any case, go through any of the three straits! Therefore, there was no sense in the meetings ...
                and indeed all the insinuations on this subject are futile - anyway, everyone will remain at his own .... And an already completed action will not change anything.
                It wasn't Rozhdestvensky who was a worthless admiral, but the fact that the Japanese were faster predetermined the outcome of events ... This is my opinion hi
                1. +2
                  19 May 2019 22: 50
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  Each order was discussed with subordinates before its implementation?

                  Well, the order - round, step march! - Of course, not subject to discussion. But the discussion of the battle, to which the squadron went for several months, on which the fate of the squadron, war, and the country depended, is something else, isn't it? Why, in the testimony, admirals and officers are perplexed that this did not happen at all? Rozhdestvensky did nothing, even the author of the article made him do nothing with brilliant insight. The new pearl is a brilliant naval commander who does nothing! Carcass!
                  1. +1
                    19 May 2019 23: 08
                    Quote: sevtrash
                    The new pearl is a brilliant naval commander who does nothing!

                    Personally, I don’t think the ZPR is a genius, but link the party line (Amperatar’s order to win superiority at sea) and the reality with what it had to be done (I’m still surprised how “Emperor Alexander II” with “Admiral Kornilov” and “Memory of Azov” was not kicked out in conquest), then you will understand that quantity does not yet speak of quality. He finished, he trained (ask the GMSH, where did the promised transport with shells go wink ) and even if the speed would be 13 knots, this would not change anything. The Japanese knew that there would be a fight, they were higher, Rozhdestvensky only hoped, although he knew that he was losing in speed. ...
                    The only thing that could, in my opinion, affect the outcome was to disable Mikasa at an early stage, disorganizing the management (albeit briefly) of the Japanese. We tried (Mikasa got the most out of all at the beginning) BUT! They got out only the head ones + all the same weak explosive action of the shells ...
                    About the fact that the meetings did not solve anything, I already wrote hi
                    1. +4
                      20 May 2019 15: 07
                      ask GMS where the promised transport with wink shells has gone


                      Based on what is written in the work of the historical commission, the same question could be addressed to Zinovy ​​Petrovich himself.

                      1. +1
                        20 May 2019 15: 31
                        The answer to this question was very simple - Rozhestvensky knew very well that there was simply no place to take other projectiles - they were scraped together on the 2TOE as well. Therefore, when it became known that they were taken to Vladivostok, further negotiations lost their meaning.
                      2. +4
                        20 May 2019 17: 59
                        when it became known that they were taken to Vladivostok, further negotiations lost their meaning

                        This is of course so. But according to the written explanations of the General Staff, Admiral Rozhestvensky did not give instructions on sending shells to Madagascar and BEFORE they left by rail.
                        Of course, this did not stop the employees of the general secondary school from turning their heads on and critically considering where practical shells would be more useful. But in my opinion it’s wrong to completely relieve responsibility from the ZPR - in such an important issue as supplying squadrons with shells for training firing it was not out of place to make sure that they would be sent to Madagascar.
                      3. 0
                        20 May 2019 19: 00
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        This is of course so. But according to the written explanations of the General Staff, Admiral Rozhestvensky did not give instructions on sending shells to Madagascar and BEFORE they left by rail.

                        Just not - they had to go on transport after the squadron. And Rozhestvensky could not give instructions to send him shells - he could only request these shells.
                  2. -2
                    21 May 2019 15: 05
                    Quote: sevtrash
                    But the discussion of the battle, to which the squadron went for several months, on which the fate of the squadron, war, and the country depended, is something else, isn't it?

                    I imagined a picture, three admirals gathered at the fourth and ZPR asks, well, well, brothers, colleagues, how will we fight? and they’re in response - a cannon shell and shoot ... And if Togo maneuvers, then it is necessary to counter-maneuver ... And even better - draw up a hundred plans and hang them with all the ships of the squadron so that everyone knows their place.
                    You better tell us whether Ushakov there or Nelson gathered such meetings before each fight?
        2. +4
          19 May 2019 11: 23
          Why not cut into circles? When the column was led by "Alexander III" it was cut and long. The Germans at Jutland slaughtered. And he cut Togo himself. Count how many times "all of a sudden" did and looped. And you could go to the strait later. And drive off the scouts. Still, Togo needed time to come up and find our squadron. Visibility was poor and without intelligence Togo would have had to waste time. And it was possible to keep the speed of the main units and more. There were still a few small battles. The transports guarded the cruisers from the cruisers. There was no point in wasting the time of the armored ships on transport. In general, there are too many things. And the military leaders abruptly always collected military advice. It turned out to be a genius. I decided to do without advisers.
          1. -1
            19 May 2019 11: 36
            Quote: mmaxx
            The Germans slaughtered under Jutland.

            laughing Comparison does not roll wink The Germans in those conditions that they had to face, one might say, maneuvered almost perfectly. They were saved by the slowness of the too large Grand Fleet and the excellent execution of a consistent turn of 180 degrees. Here the scale is incommensurable. But it was the British that saved the speed when the cruisers Beatty and the battleships Evan Thomas escaped from the fire of the German battleships. The same speed allowed to bring the battleships of Scheer exactly to the center of the Grand Fleet
            1. +1
              21 May 2019 14: 58
              The comparison is normal. A maneuver then is the ability to make one’s position profitable, and the opponent’s position disadvantageous. And that’s all. The scale has nothing to do with it. The Germans came out of head coverage. And ours had to go out. And do not go 9 knots NO 23 degrees. Under the command of a brave and stupid commander.
              1. 0
                21 May 2019 20: 37
                Quote: mmaxx
                A maneuver then is the ability to make one’s position profitable, and the opponent’s position disadvantageous.

                So what!? laughing Well, "Alexander" made a maneuver to get the squadron out of a disadvantageous position. "Alexander" went south, turned Togo, and again blocked the path to Vladivostok. "Alexander # modestly and heroically again led the squadron under the head of the Japanese ... WHAT CHANGED? wink Made the Alexander's maneuver disadvantageous for Togo? And not at all, because the task was to break through to Vladivostok, and not let the Japanese in. And since everyone stupidly tried to fulfill their plans, the result is known
                The Germans, who understood that the British could be broken up only in parts, had no desire to fall under the fire of the entire Grand Fleet. As a result, they got out from under the blow and returned home. In one case, the evasion maneuver led to a negative result, in the other to a positive one. Morality - one must think with one’s head and look a little at the reality of performing one or another maneuver and how it fits with the tactical situation and the execution of orders.
                So how many pretzels for evasion do you write out, and if again, like a ram, you return to the gate, then no ingenious maneuvers will save you lol wink
                Already on my fingers I explained how to convey simple truths - I don’t know ... hi
                1. 0
                  22 May 2019 15: 55
                  So the question is whether Rozhdestvensky understood at least something or not.
                  And you don't need to inform me of anything. Have you fought at least two? So hello to you without maneuver. And running speed doesn't solve anything. The initiative decides. And the initiative belongs to the one who makes the first move. Turning Togo from the same opera. And this maneuver, criticized for an incomprehensible reason, put an end to the entire Russian squadron, taking into account Rozhestvensky's "plans". With such primitive tactics that he didn't even bother to discuss with his commanders, everything was useless.
        3. +3
          19 May 2019 11: 32
          And what, the whole battle you will cut the dimes in a circle ?!

          Andrei Shmelev correctly wrote for everyone that you need to be able to apply at least school geometry. And your mistake is that the Russian ship supposedly stupidly stand still and only circle around one point. But in fact, they are moving forward, and with considerable speed. If not for Rozhdestvensky, then instead of 9 knots, the first detachment could well go at a speed of 16 knots. But here everyone needs to understand that the first Japanese detachment also could not go faster than 16 knots! The fact is that the delivery speed of 18 knots for both Russian and Japanese was only in trials, and in real conditions, neither Russian nor Japanese armadillos could go faster than 16 knots. And in the same way, for Japanese armored cruisers from 21 knot front speed you need to throw 2-3 knots.
          And now, if you take the conditional axis and postpone the speed of Russians and Japanese on it, then it should all turn out that the latest Russian armadillos have practically the same speed compared to the Japanese. And if you subtract Russian from the Japanese 16 knots, you will see that the Japanese runaway speed from the Russians is 0 (if the Russians rushed to chase them). This means that such a pursuit could go on forever until the coal runs out. And if all connoisseurs had the intelligence to understand that if the Russians made a sudden turn with their noses at the Japanese, then the Japanese would inevitably miss this, and the Russians would be able to get close to the distance of 10 cable effective fires, and from this point the Japanese would have to flee - exposing himself to longitudinal shooting. Of course, Russian ships also get under longitudinal fire. But there are two huge factors at once in favor of the Russians, and the townsfolk do not know about these factors. The fact is that the Russians have excellent armor-piercing shells that are capable of flying along an enemy ship, descending and breaking through its decks and engine-boiler rooms. And the Japanese have only high-explosive shells that are not capable of breaking through decks.
          And in addition, the second factor - every wrecked Japanese ship inevitably reduces speed and probably stops - that is, any projectile that gets into the boiler room breaks through the boiler and the CO is immediately filled with steam. Of course, any boiler can easily be turned off - but it takes several minutes, during which the Japanese ship slows down and lagging behind its own is surrounded by the Russian squadron, where for several minutes it is drowned from pistol distance by artillery fire and torpedoes, obsolete Russian battleships of the cruiser and destroyers .
          And in the same way, a wrecked Russian lead ship simply slows down and remains completely surrounded by Russian ships in complete safety. And so, one after another, many Japanese ships can be destroyed.
          1. -1
            19 May 2019 12: 15
            Quote: geniy
            And in the same way, a wrecked Russian lead ship simply slows down and remains completely surrounded by Russian ships in complete safety. And so, one after another, many Japanese ships can be destroyed.

            Lord, you live with Shmelev in virtual reality of geometry laughing
            What are 16 nodes !!!
            Read the comment of the distinguished Comrade on 05.37, Kostenko himself will tell you that the maxim that the Russian battleships were capable of after the round-the-world trip and the delights of being in the tropics was 13 knots! 16 knots and the prospect of breaking through with 5 armadillos and 4 cruisers only in the brains of alternatives are gorgeous. Alas, the reality was that the maximum that the Russian squadron could count on was a little over 10 knots. Therefore, he took the transports with him because he understood that with them, that without them, the speed would still be lower than the Japanese one. And there would be a chance to break through if the Japanese slowed down to the Russians and walked in parallel columns of a classic squadron battle, where everyone would shoot by your opponent! But only imbitsil will not take advantage of his superiority in speed. So how much do not engage in fiction, the reality of this will not change hi
            1. +5
              19 May 2019 12: 29
              Quote: Rurikovich
              16 nodes and the prospects of breaking through with the 5 battleships and the 4 cruisers in the brains of alternatives are gorgeous only.

              I would ask! Alternatives have the same suicide as non alternatives. Colleagues Andrei and st. matros won't let you lie laughing
              1. +1
                19 May 2019 16: 24
                Quote: arturpraetor
                I would ask!

                This is me, by the way, so that some comrades would understand the prospects of their assumptions feel Whimper drinks hi
            2. +1
              19 May 2019 12: 29
              Alas, the reality was that the maximum that the Russian squadron could count on was a little over 10 knots.

              lol
              because at night the remains of the squadron developed 13 knots negative

              Nevertheless, I will repeat my very first comment:
              According to Kostenko's testimony, the "Eagle" could develop up to 16 knots before the battle and more than 15 the next morning. With what fright I was significantly inferior
              issued as akioma? I am not a great specialist in Tsushima, therefore I am not ashamed to ask: are there reliable sources that are not affiliated with Rozhestvensky, on the basis of which it is possible to reliably determine the maximum possible speed of new battleships?
              1. +1
                19 May 2019 19: 50
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                because at night the remains of the squadron developed 13 nodes negative

                So the "königs" developed according to estimates 24 knots with 21 design knots, when they broke free from Jellicoe's arms wink tongue
                1. +4
                  19 May 2019 19: 58
                  So the "königs" developed according to estimates 24 knots with 21 design knots, when they broke out of Jellicoe's arms wink tongue


                  well, that 24 is debatable, but no one disputes that in real combat conditions Koenig, if necessary, run out of 22 knots
                  Nebogatov needed the old "Nikolai 1" to go 13, "Emerald" needed to run out of 22 for sure, which is also very logical, "Eagle" needed and he developed the same 13 as "Nikolai 1" without any strain at all
                  ZPR during the investigation and the bubble with it proved that 9, maximum 11 for the latest battleships
                  colleagues are already visible not the first keyboard was broken, proving that Kostenko was wrong and the true speed of the "Eagle" should have been 14-15 knots in the morning before the battle, but to hell with them, "let the damned weevil choke" (c) let the Borodino people walk 14,5 .13,5, and the old battleships are 9,0, that's not 13 knots! and a squadron move of even 16 knots against 28.07.1904 allows you to avoid "crossing-T", see battle on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX

                  wink bully
                  1. 0
                    19 May 2019 20: 10
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    and a squadron move of even 13 knots against 16 allows you to avoid "crossing-T", see battle on 28.07.1904/XNUMX/XNUMX

                    In battle on 28.07, Togo was catching up with the Russians! An advantage of 3 knots would have been enough after a while to go above the Russians - especially since Vitgeft did not interfere with this in any way. Therefore, the concentration of fire on the head "Tsarevich" was a matter of time! But Togo had almost no time because of his careless actions in the outset of the battle. Under Tsushima, Togo, in any case, already occupied the position he needed and no even 13 knots would have saved Rozhdestvensky, and he had time compared to the outcome of the battle in the Yellow Sea
                    1. +3
                      19 May 2019 23: 34
                      Under Tsushima, Togo, in any case, already occupied the position he needed, and even 13 knots would not have saved Rozhestvensky, but he had a wagon compared to the outcome of the battle in the Yellow Sea

                      belay
                      and turn from the Japanese as "Alexander 3" did, no? I will tactfully note that when he was leading the squadron, he managed not only to shoot down the Japanese zeroing, but even almost broke through behind the stern at Togo - this unknown, I do not know who remained in the wheelhouse - Bukhvostov or a simple helmsman - here he is true mountain of Russia, so they should be proud of, it is necessary to write articles about him here, and not to otmazyvat the stupid psycho ZPR.
                      1. +1
                        20 May 2019 12: 08
                        "so they should be proud of him, articles should be written about him here, and not a stupid psycho ZPR otmazyvat."
                        Bravo! drinks This shows that with proper maneuvering, the 2TO had a chance!
                      2. 0
                        20 May 2019 18: 56
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        but even almost broke through Togo's stern - this unknown one, I don’t know who remained in the wheelhouse

                        On 9 nodes break through !!!? laughing laughing
                        I had a better opinion of your speculation! wink "Alexander III" simply dodged the faster enemy, who, thanks to the speed, still managed to concentrate fire on the necessary ships! But you have it explained by the genius of the unknown helmsman.
                        But when Togo realized that further infatuation could open up other options for the Russians (be it, of course, they are faster and better maneuvering), Togo simply turned away "all of a sudden" and returned to the course that prevented the path to Vladik. When "Alexander" "brilliantly" finished the ingenious maneuver - voila - Togo was again on his way with his "crossing T" and the beating continued
                        What a breakthrough against a faster enemy! lol laughing
                        Oh, comedians ... wassat
                      3. 0
                        20 May 2019 19: 06
                        On 9 nodes break through !!!? laughing laughing
                        I had a better opinion of your speculation!


                        google "the valor of Admiral Kamimur", well, you can read at Semyonov)
                      4. +1
                        20 May 2019 20: 10
                        Did you like the description of the damage to the Kamimura cruisers in the battle on August 1?
                        I can offer another link to the damage and loss of Mikasa in the battle on 28.07 in the Yellow Sea
                        https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/56888.html
                      5. +1
                        20 May 2019 20: 17
                        Like a cherry on the cake about the accuracy of the Russian artillerymen - a photo of the Nissin bow turret with a mark from a 9 "shell hit according to Japanese data
                      6. 0
                        20 May 2019 20: 34
                        if offhand, then I’m delighted with this magazine) I’ll return on the weekend from a business trip to re-read it carefully and will analyze it in detail already) thank you very much!
                      7. +1
                        20 May 2019 22: 11
                        Well, to finish off - analysis of the damage of "Mikasa" in the initial phase of the Tsushima battle! By Campbell
                        https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/45659.html
                      8. +1
                        20 May 2019 22: 15
                        damage analysis of "Mikasa" in the initial phase of the Tsushima battle! By Campbell

                        good
                        that would be to get the data how many armadillos and how many shells fired at it winked

                        Well, to finish off


                        I don’t understand this. whom and why?
                      9. +2
                        20 May 2019 22: 18
                        Nude Nude. If you read carefully, the main damage in the initial phase of the battle came precisely from the 1st detachment, and since three of the four died, we are unlikely to ever know the answer to this question winked
                      10. 0
                        20 May 2019 22: 21
                        then the main damage in the initial phase of the battle came precisely from the 1st detachment


                        in fact, everyone was shooting and, IMHO, even the third squad could hit Mikasa, no? but this is the subject of a huge article and a long comment thread. we must wait for the next post of Andrey from Chelyabinsk)
                      11. +1
                        20 May 2019 22: 32
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        I don’t understand this. whom and why?

                        laughing Figuratively smile
            3. 0
              19 May 2019 13: 16
              Rurikovich (Andrey) Today, 12:15
              Lord, yes you live with Shmelev in virtual reality geometry laughing
              What are 16 nodes !!!
              Read the comment of the distinguished Comrade on 05.37, Kostenko himself will tell you that the maxim that the Russian battleships were capable of after the round-the-world trip and the delights of being in the tropics was 13 knots!

              Firstly, in the tropics, all Russian ships cleared their bottoms of algae. And although the senior sailor assures that the Japanese had many docks and no queue for cleaning, but in fact cleaning the underwater casing and putting the ship into the dock - then it was a very expensive operation. all modern ships have a flat bottom, and ships of that time have a keeled bottom. And therefore, when docking, ships of the time of the REV were put with side rests - and it was quite difficult to put the ship in the dock.
              So until the beginning of the twentieth century, it was considered normal to clean the underwater casing after about two years. and then the British introduced the rule that ships should be docked six months later. but I doubt that this rule was observed. So the Russian ships cleared the underwater skin three months before the battle, and the Japanese - no less than six months.
              But there is another factor in reducing speed - this is a storm of storm. I indulged in a stormy ship speed simulator - just an astounding decrease in speed! The destroyers of the Second World War, capable of developing speeds in quiet water of more than 35 knots in a storm, can barely have 10-12 knots!
              And this is exactly what In the Tsushima battle, the conditions were close to the storm. Because the border of the storm is 6 points, and under Tsushima the excitement was 5-7 points. And therefore it is not surprising that the battleships of Borodino could not develop their passport speed of 16 knots. So Kostenko notes that at night they could go 15,5-16 knots - but this is in conditions of almost stormy excitement! And why did they go at night at a speed of 13 knots - yes, simply because in order to develop full speed, really, stokers needed to attract a large part of the deck crew to help, and this was unprofitable in the conditions of attacks by Japanese destroyers. Therefore, everyone needs to understand that if they wanted to, then by attracting the deck crew they could develop 16 nodal speed, and if there was no excitement in quiet water, then 18 nodal speed.
              But here it’s either kind of stupidity, or dishonesty of Andrei from Chelyabinsk and his associates - because they all notice a decrease in speed only for Russian ships, while in reality the Japanese squadron reduced the speed of the storm! And never the Japanese could develop their passport speed of the battleships 19 knots - and never more than 16 knots! And the long and narrow Japanese armored cruisers lost even more speed in stormy waves!
              And also this idiot Rozhdestvensky having reduced speed due to participation in a breakthrough of one slow-moving transport with a speed of 9 knots. What gives such a speed? You all know the adventures of the stoker Baklanov on the battleship Oryol, who either climbed into the ammunition cellar and put out fires there, then drank into the officer pantries, but none of you understand why he actually did it! But the bottom line is that the Admiralty formula requires that the power of the machines. Depends on the speed as much as 3 degrees! If you could count, then taking the passport speed of 18 knots, and the real speed in battle of 9 knots and dividing one into another - we get a 2-fold decrease in speed - on the orders of Rozhestvensky. But according to the Admiralty formula, the power of cars, which means the amount of steam from the boilers and the amount of coal thrown into the furnaces should decrease by 2 in the third degree! That is, 2 ** 3 = 8 times !! This means that for the battleships Oryol for 9 nodal passage of 20 boilers, only 2,5 boilers would have been enough! which means that the stokers of the remaining 17 boilers were supposed to be inactive - they could freely stagger around the ship or play cards and drink vodka!
              1. +1
                19 May 2019 15: 46
                But there is another factor in reducing speed - this is a storm of storm. I indulged in a stormy ship speed simulator - just an astounding decrease in speed!


                good very good point
                For example:


                but for large ships this decrease is less, for example, there was a point of view that the "Cressy" is faster than the conventional "Boyar" in the real sea, I generally keep quiet about the fresh weather

                But according to the Admiralty formula, the power of cars, which means the amount of steam from the boilers and the amount of coal thrown into the furnaces, should decrease by 2 to the third degree! That is, 2 ** 3 = 8 times !! This means that for the battleships Oryol for 9 nodal passage of 20 boilers, only 2,5 boilers would have been enough! which means that the stokers of the remaining 17 boilers were supposed to be inactive - they could freely stagger around the ship or play cards and drink vodka!


                good
              2. +4
                19 May 2019 21: 10
                1) The quality of cleaning the bottom of the divers in the campaign, can not be compared with that in the dock.
                2) Where do Japanese cruisers have "long and narrow hulls"? There, the ratio of length to width is only slightly better than that of battleships. You didn't confuse them with Russian six-thousanders for an hour?
                Quote: geniy
                You all know the adventures of the stoker Baklanov on the battleship Orel, who either climbed into the ammunition cellar and put out fires there, sometimes drank into the officer pantries, but none of you understand why he actually did it!

                Because it's a fictional character?
            4. +2
              19 May 2019 13: 35
              Quote: Rurikovich
              Kostenko himself will tell you that the maxim that the Russian battleships were capable of after round the world and the delights of being in the tropics was 13 knots! 16 knots and the prospect of breaking through with 5 armadillos and 4 cruisers only in the brains of alternatives are gorgeous. Alas, the reality was that the maximum that the Russian squadron could count on was a little over 10 knots.

              What nonsense, where did you get it? Kostenko in official testimony, based on the opinion of the ship’s mechanics, indicates the possible speed of the Eagle at 16-16,5 knots. The report to the Admiralty technical committee indicates for the entire group of new battleships a possible speed of 15-16 knots. Read first, then say, do not mislead people.
              1. +1
                19 May 2019 19: 53
                Quote: sevtrash
                Kostenko in official testimony, based on the opinion of the ship’s mechanics, indicates the possible speed of the Eagle at 16-16,5 knots. The report to the Admiralty technical committee indicates for the entire group of new battleships a possible speed of 15-16 knots.

                In the comments above, Kostenko’s testimony was already described. wink
                Quote: sevtrash
                Read first, then say, do not mislead people.

                I read more than once. But Kostenko’s testimonies are already after the fact, but for Rozhestvensky, whose headquarters all reports from the ship’s commanders flock about their condition, is it not better to know what he can really count on?
                Everyone is smart in hindsight lol
                1. +2
                  19 May 2019 23: 00
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  In the comments above, Kostenko’s testimony was already described.

                  Well, I basically describe them. Almost a lawyer laughing
                  Quote: Rurikovich
                  But Kostenko’s testimonies are already after the fact, but for Rozhestvensky, whose headquarters all reports from the ship’s commanders flock about their condition, is it not better to know what he can really count on?

                  Why, after the fact. Kostenko had such a job, a ship engineer, was in contact with other engineers, in particular, an old man and an engineer Borodin regarding speed. Do you know how much was saved from Borodin? One sailor. So not ex post.
                  Dai in general - fuss because of the speed of the new battleships. And Rozhdestvensky took into account the possible speed of all ships and vessels.
            5. +1
              19 May 2019 20: 48
              Are you not in virtual? Read my commentary on the maneuvers of the French fleet in 1910.
              1. +1
                19 May 2019 21: 34
                Quote: ignoto
                And you are not in virtual

                Tell us what were the conditions of these maneuvers. hi
                Yes, and it turns out from the French that they need at least 6-8 knots, and the British before the REV believed in their maneuvers that 1,5-2 knots are enough. Who to believe ?! request wink
                Because in the beginning of the battle, Togo was already ahead of the Russian system - he does not even need an advantage of 6 knots to cover the head of the Rozhestvensky system.
                1. 0
                  21 May 2019 15: 49
                  Colleague, there is such a thing ... as if there is a "difference" and "difference". For reception at a speed of, say, 10 knots of a slow-speed detachment, this very difference of 2 knots will be - 20%. And if a slow-moving squad rushes at twenty knots, then only 10%. That is two times less.
                  The same Gibovsky, with a blue eye, said that, they say, in Jutland there was also a difference in the 3 node ... and the speed? And the firing distance? Vladimir Yulievich modestly kept silent about all this.
                2. -1
                  2 June 2019 15: 27
                  and the British before the RYA believed in their maneuvers that 1,5-2 knots were enough. Who to believe ?!


                  what the Englishmen believed was that the Great namesake boasted, IMHO, I didn’t find anything about these maneuvers, and he didn’t give me, despite my insistent requests
                  so they believed that Invincible was gash with a 25-node) and not a 21-node like Tsukuba

                  hi
            6. +2
              19 May 2019 20: 51
              In vain you are so about alternatives. Real alternatives have a completely different scope.
              There, the whole of the REV is called into question.
            7. 0
              20 May 2019 10: 26
              ..you Kostenko himself will say that the maxim that the Russian battleships were capable of after round the world and the delights of being in the tropics was 13 knots!
              ..the reality was that the maximum that the Russian squadron could count on was a little over 10 knots

              What kind of fiction do you have? And why not just 9 knots)) And the "Russian squadron" - together with the hospitals?
              1
              6 knots and the prospect of breaking through with 5 armadillos and 4 cruisers only in the brains of alternatives are gorgeous

              The task set was not to break through, but "to conquer the sea")) And the alternatives decide it - some with shells, some with something else))) But you are right that reality cannot be changed laughing
      2. +3
        19 May 2019 11: 33
        ". And here on the contrary - a Russian ship approaching perpendicularly is very quickly approaching" ////
        ------
        There is something true in your reasoning. Shooting all over - this is a kind of atavism of sailing battles of frigates.
        Look: how many towers on modern ships? - only one. We came to this gradually, but the tendency is inexorable.
        Plant the best commanders in the bow tower, for the adjustment - the best officers, turn your nose to the enemy and go on rapprochement. A few well-aimed hits on enemy ships can make them begin to retreat - no one wants to go to ram. And from the destroyers of the enemy fight off small caliber sides.
        1. +1
          19 May 2019 20: 39
          Look: how many towers on modern ships? - only one. We came to this gradually, but the tendency is inexorable.

          Because
          (1) this gun (of a fairly small caliber) has not been a ship’s main weapon for a long time
          (2) the rate of fire of this setup is 60 rounds per minute (usually). At the same time, the only way to increase the rate of fire is to increase the number of trunks.
          1. +3
            19 May 2019 22: 07
            I understand your points.
            But anyway:
            1) nasal towers started very quickly
            to put two - with a ledge, one above the other.
            2) the number of trunks in the tower increased to four.
            And all this in order to attack the enemy not by the side, but by the nose.
            1. 0
              20 May 2019 15: 03
              2) the number of trunks in the tower increased to four.

              If you mean the British, then this was a consequence of the fact that they could not create a normal three-gun tower.
              And all this in order to attack the enemy not by the side, but by the nose.

              Then why did they continue to book so precisely the sides of the ships?
              1. +2
                20 May 2019 15: 13
                Vulnerabilities are gunpowder cellars under the towers. It was easiest to hit them from the side (until the Yu-87 appeared). So I had to make armored belts or armored inserts on the sides.
                ----
                "we were never able to create a normal three-gun turret." ////
                ----
                Is it? On the Thames opposite the Tower there is a cruiser museum. There are three-gun turrets. Moreover, the guns are not in a row, but "herringbone" - the middle gun is deepened inside the tower. For easy charging.
                I always thought that the British were leading in the construction of all kinds of armored dreadnought battleships? Is not it?
                1. 0
                  20 May 2019 15: 32
                  Quote: voyaka uh
                  Is it? On the Thames opposite the Tower is the cruiser museum. There are exactly three-gun turrets

                  Epochs of the Second World War. And we are talking about a much earlier period.
                2. +1
                  20 May 2019 15: 40
                  I always thought that the British were leading in the construction of all kinds of armored dreadnought battleships? Is not it?

                  Go over the types of British battleships, on almost all two-gun turrets of the Civil Code. The exception is Nelsons, there are three-guns. Only now the British, as far as I remember, were dissatisfied with these towers, so on the next type of battleship they returned to the towers with an even number of trunks. It was because of this that it was necessary to construct a monstrous four-gun hulk.
                  Vulnerabilities are gunpowder cellars under the towers. It was easiest to hit them from the side (until the Yu-87 appeared). So I had to make armored belts or armored inserts on the sides.

                  Then only the cellar would be booked, and not make a full armored belt.
                  I think you will not argue that by the end of WWII, the United States was the leader in shipbuilding. The latest project of the battleships (Montana, unrealized) involved the deployment of 4 towers of the Civil Code, two of them in the stern. Why, if if the ship must attack with its bow?
                  1. +3
                    20 May 2019 15: 42
                    The topic is controversial. recourse
                    Perhaps you `re right. drinks
    3. 0
      19 May 2019 15: 36
      This fight was a priori lost, because the Russians were inferior to the Japanese in terms of a key indicator - speed.


      I absolutely disagree.
      Indeed, the battle was lost even before leaving Libau. But not because of speed - but because of shells.

      If the shells were normally bursting, Rozhdestvensky would go to Vladik
      1. 0
        19 May 2019 16: 25
        And what would you say if the Russian ships were equipped with only one shell - steel blanks - which in principle cannot explode at all? Is it possible to defeat such shells?
        If I’m not mistaken, then during the Second World War, German artillery fired at these Soviet tanks with such blanks, and moreover, they often successfully destroyed Soviet tanks. About the Soviet anti-tank artillery - there are also a lot of shots there were blanks. Shot 53-UBR-354B with a projectile 53-BR-350B (Dull-headed with a ballistic tip with tracers)
        Can you explain to all readers how an unexploded ordnance can destroy a tank? And if you can destroy the tank - then maybe the ship can also be sunk by unexploded ordnance? I will give the opinion of Admiral Makarov from his book:
        Admiral Jenish advised to use unloaded shells (i.e. blanks) for longitudinal shots. He believed that the projectile would do more harm if it would pass the whole length of the ship, and even if it could, due to its angle of descent, penetrate to the machine or boilers. This remark has a deep meaning, and we personally think that truly longitudinal shots should be fired with loose shells (blanks)

        Makarov really believed that it was very difficult to choose the moment for a longitudinal shot. But in fact, if the Japanese squadron fled from the Russian - that is, turned stern towards the Russian ships, then all shots will be received longitudinally at the Japanese.
        Here is an example of such a longitudinal shot from the Invincible-class battlecruisers brochure:
        Then, passing astern of the target, the cruiser Drake fired. One of his 234 mm shells hit behind the aft turret and pierced the armored deck (that is, dived under it). Then he deviated in a horizontal direction and went through all the engine and boiler rooms. (during this journey through all the engine-boiler rooms, this shell undoubtedly damaged all the boilers and machines, because they were made of not too thick metal) ... Watts was terribly struck by the strange and amazing wandering of a single shell and its truly "devastating" result

        But how to create conditions for a projectile to better penetrate armor? Yes, it’s very simple: here I’ll remind you of the possibility of piercing armor from the most ordinary Soviet anti-tank gun-- forty: At a distance of 100 meters, its projectile is capable of penetrating 82 mm of armor, at a distance of 500 m = 40 mm, and at a distance of 1000 meters only 28 mm armor. From this, everyone can clearly see that if you fight at a minimum distance, then armor penetration increases in an amazing way.
        1. 0
          19 May 2019 16: 45
          Throughout the Second World War, German artillery shot at Soviet tanks with just such blanks, and moreover, it often successfully destroyed Soviet tanks.

          The words from the famous song "Tanks rumbled on the field":
          Here’s a blank disc hit the tank ..
          Goodbye dear crew!
          Four corpses near the tank
          Complement the morning landscape ...
          1. +4
            19 May 2019 21: 18
            Where are the cofferdams and coal pits located in the tank?
            Where is the place in the ship, hit in which the blanks are guaranteed to disable at least 20% of the crew?
        2. 0
          19 May 2019 20: 01
          And what would you say if the Russian ships were equipped with only one shell - steel blanks - which in principle cannot explode at all? Is it possible to defeat such shells?

          It was with such shells that the 2nd TOE went into battle


          If I’m not mistaken, then during the Second World War, German artillery fired at these Soviet tanks with such blanks, and moreover, they often successfully destroyed Soviet tanks. About the Soviet anti-tank artillery - there are also a lot of shots there were blanks.

          This is even cooler than comparing the maneuvering of a ship and a car ...
          Do you even understand anything in the subject?
          A tank is a fairly tightly assembled vehicle: when piercing armor, even with only a steel core, there is a possibility of hitting a crew member or important equipment. And even if you are lucky (and the layout of Soviet tanks contributed to such "luck"), then ignite the fuel. The ships are not at all so tightly packed.

          In general, nothing in common. Moreover: a demonstration of a complete misunderstanding of the subject of conversation
        3. 0
          22 May 2019 12: 21
          Quote: geniy
          Can you explain to all readers how an unexploded ordnance can destroy a tank? And if you can destroy the tank - then maybe the ship can also be sunk by unexploded ordnance?

          Honestly, after these words, your comments and disputes on the current topic can simply be safely skipped as having no informational value.
          1. +2
            22 May 2019 19: 55
            Personally, I have lost interest in this topic - because it goes down and still almost no one will read. And the answer should be written very large. Well, let’s try briefly - so as not to waste my strength in vain.
            My opponents The senior sailor (Ivan Ochenkov), AK-64, Trapper7 (Dmitry) seem to be smart people, but for many decades, spat on the Russian fleet completely weaned you from thinking. The answer is essentially.
            Russian shells really were actually non-explosive blanks - and it was these shells that could easily and quickly sink the Japanese fleet - in contrast to the fact that the Japanese shot high-explosive shells and spent 5 hours.
            So the principle of battle: to turn the noses of Russian ships strictly directly to the Japanese, which is why the Japanese inevitably turn stern to the Russian fleet and begin to shamefully run away. But Russian shells are still much faster! And the battle immediately turns into a mutual longitudinal execution.
            In contrast to the transverse firing of two parallel wake columns, with longitudinal firing, all shells fly along the longitudinal axis of each enemy ship. At the same time, high-explosive Japanese shells explode almost instantly, and are not able to penetrate inside Russian ships - they explode only from the outside. In contrast, Russian shells breaking through the unarmored stern of every Japanese ship continue to fly further, falling along a ballistic trajectory. During a flight along a decreasing trajectory, Russian shells inevitably break through the glaciers of the engine rooms of Japanese ships (glaciers are actually traverse armor). BUT even if the glaciers are not immediately broken, the Russian shells continue to glide along the armored decks of Japanese ships. And in these decks there are many openings - these are chimneys, and ventilation pipes, and access hatches to the machine and boiler rooms, or thin armor of the supply pipes to the ammunition cellar. It should be remembered that the firing accuracy during longitudinal shelling increases by about 6-8 times, compared with conventional transverse firing. And thanks to this, many Russian blank shells, having fallen into a chimney or ventilation pipe, dive under an armored deck - I am there: steam engines, thin pipes of water tube boilers, and an ammunition cellar. And every Russian shell passes along the entire Japanese ship, while crashing steam engines, smashing steam boilers and exploding ammunition cellars. -
            Should I further explain or not?
            At the same time, your own stupidities - cofferdams, coal pits, layout density and defeat of crew members - these arguments testify only to your stupidity!
            1. +1
              23 May 2019 20: 03
              Dear colleague, Genius, could you please depict the scheme of such a battle? I'm trying to draw that in the text and it turns out:
              1. The Russian squadron (RE) is wake, the Japanese YE squadron is heading on the wake. YaE turns with the intention of crossing T. Appearance - a huge letter T. The Russian squadron is being rebuilt by the front line (out of order of the column?) Appearance - two "parallel lines" (will not be parallel, but at least some analogy. Both squadrons are converging. Having reached the end of the Russian system, the Japanese consistently turn, and the appearance is the letter T (lying on its side).
              1. Rozhdestvensky builds a squadron in advance with a front line. JE counter course, wake. View - angle or English. eL. YE goes the same course and crosses T
      2. +2
        19 May 2019 16: 53
        If the shells were normally bursting, Rozhdestvensky would go to Vladik

        lol belay

        I hesitate to ask:
        Vigeft’s shells exploded? Witgeft went to Vladik?

        Where is the proof that the 2 TOE shells did not explode when they hit the armor at Tsushima?
        Where is the sufficient proof that "Tsesarevich" had 100% continuity?

        What happened to the developer of the shock tube Brink after 1905?
        1. 0
          19 May 2019 18: 15
          I hesitate to ask:
          Vigeft’s shells exploded? Witgeft went to Vladik?
          Where is the proof that the 2 TOE shells did not explode when they hit the armor at Tsushima?

          Forgive me for not directly answering your question, because the topic of shell explosions is simply huge: in fact, not only Russians, but also Japanese shells, as well as Chinese and Japanese, did not explode in the Sino-Japanese War, American and Spanish in Spain -American war, English and German in the First World War, and in the Second World War German, English American Japanese and Soviet shells did not always explode.
          But right now, information about Japanese shells in Russian-Japanese came to my hand. Therefore, forgive me generously that instead of answering about the explosions of Russian shells, I will write you about Japanese ones for seed.
          So, everyone could have known that during the siege of Port Arthur, its inhabitants found 2000 (two thousand!) Unexploded Japanese shells - apparently almost all from 280 mm howitzers. And what’s interesting - in the arsenal of the Russian army in Arthur there were guns with exactly the same caliber, only the cutting direction was opposite. Therefore, Russian artillerymen loaded unexploded Japanese shells and shot them at the Japanese!
          But if naive readers believed that two thousand Japanese shells had not actually exploded, then you are stupid. Because the Japanese fired about 20 thousand shells at Port Arthur. And most of them fell into the bay. But at the bottom of the bay no one would look for unexploded shells - it is clear that only those that fell on dry ground lifted! And this means that the rest of the unexploded shells were simply not found! And the total number of unexploded Japanese shells can be simply huge - about 10 thousand!
          1. -1
            19 May 2019 18: 19
            And the total number of unexploded Japanese shells can be huge

            good
            Yes sir! drinks

            I just as usual wait for proofs from AK64. request
          2. +1
            19 May 2019 18: 38
            And here is some more interesting information (which is known to everyone in principle) about the shelling by the Japanese armored cruisers of the city of Vladivostok
            [quote] The adversary fired up to 200 shells with an insignificant result, [/ quote] Note - probably a significant part of the shells simply did not find and did not look for, so this figure is very approximate and inaccurate! [quote] [quote] The shells flew along Svetlanskaya - into the wasteland of the Rotten Corner, tormented the valley of the Explanation River, many shells did not even explode ", [/ quote] [/ quote
            In all Russian sources, it is noted that the Japanese firing efficiency was negligible, and many of the shells fired around the city did not explode.
            [quote] "Only two Japanese shells were fatal. During the shelling of Rotten Corner, one grenade crashed into the building of the naval hospital, killing five sick sailors on their beds. Another shell from Izumo cut a pregnant woman Arina Kondakova in half ... [/ quote] Pay attention: only two shells out of two hundred !!!
            However, in numerous press reports, only the death of Kondakova is confirmed.
            "Details of yesterday's bombing. There were no serious injuries, but only a 12-inch cannon shell pierced the wooden house of Master Kondakov. The shell entered through the roof and exited through the opposite wall into the courtyard, and in the house itself killed Kondakov's wife, a pregnant mother .."
            [quote] "<...> Finally, in the courtyard of the Siberian naval crew's barracks, a shell exploded, easily wounding five sailors. There are no more killed or wounded," Rus wrote.
            "Four were hit in the hospital area, only one shell exploded, the fragments of which injured five young sailors, of which one is serious and four are insignificant [/ quote]
            Please note that of the four shells, only one exploded - that is, the percentage of unexploded 75% !!! Also note that all four shells were most likely fired from two cruiser towers - that is, in one salvo. And this means that the accuracy of the gunshot is simply amazing - all four shells hit the same building!
            And now think about it - what was the actual percentage of non-explosions of Japanese shells at the beginning of the war, and what could be the percentage of non-explosions of Russian shells?
            And also think about whether the Japanese fired the same shells at Tsushima in the initial first period of the war? If Semenov wrote that the Russians openly wrote in the newspapers that most Japanese shells did not explode? Didn’t they use in winter a complete remake of the fuses of all their large shells? But all this is still secretly classified, just as the percentage of Russian explosions’s explosions is classified. And if Andrei Shmelev asks me - what happened to the developer of Russian projectile fuses Brink? That is, didn’t they put him in prison, or maybe they shot him? So in response I want to ask all of you: what happened to the developers of fuses of Japanese shells? Maybe they were imprisoned or shot or they made hara-kiri?
            1. +3
              19 May 2019 19: 59
              Here is a reference to the damage to the Kamimura cruisers after the battle on August 1 in the Korea Strait
              Compare with the description of the damage to Russian cruisers (at least according to Melnikov's book "Rurik" was the first ")
              https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/28064.html
              1. 0
                19 May 2019 23: 15
                very interesting article, I will study in detail, thanks)
                I tactfully note that Russian armor-piercing shells were optimized for armored damage when firing from a distance of 10-20 cable, here, IMHO, there were no questions about the Brink tube
                the lack of the best landmines in the world is a disaster, I agree

                Threat. and who had armor-piercing shells then much better?
                British black gunpowder?
                Germans generally dabbled with blanks from 240-mm guns - the armored effect of the BB was so insignificant and the fuses were so unreliable
                1. +1
                  19 May 2019 23: 23
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  Germans generally dabbled with blanks from 240 mm guns

                  The Germans dabbled in them, because in the 90s of the 19th century they sincerely believed that at those pistol ranges of the battle in the Baltic and the North Sea, due to the higher rate of fire, enemy ships could be drowned by simply breaking armor over the waterline.
                  1. 0
                    19 May 2019 23: 25
                    due to the higher rate of fire, you can sink enemy ships by simply breaking through the armor at the waterline.


                    Germans indulged in a small caliber of 240 mm
                    or do you want to say that the Germans would not be happy if instead of the blanks they had good warheads? wassat
                    1. +1
                      20 May 2019 06: 18
                      When choosing the caliber and number of guns of the main artillery, the principle of incapacitating enemy ships with a smaller number of guns of not the largest caliber, but possessing a higher rate of fire than armadillos of the Brandenburg type was used. The caliber and power of the guns, with a minimum number of them, were brought to the maximum permissible minimum.

                      The caliber of the four guns was reduced to 240 mm, compared with the 280 mm caliber of armadillos of the Brandenburg type, since guns of this particular caliber could be created faster and easier than rapid-fire. The maximum utilization of artillery reached the installation of guns in rotating towers with large sectors of fire. Despite the decrease in caliber, the power of the main caliber artillery decreased slightly, due to an increase in the velocity of the projectile near the cut of the gun barrel.

                      tongue
                      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                      Germans indulged in a small caliber of 240 mm
                      or do you want to say that the Germans would not be happy if instead of the blanks they had good warheads?
                  2. +2
                    19 May 2019 23: 30
                    The guns fired with two types of shells of the same weight of 140 kg at an initial velocity at the cut of the gun barrel of 836 m / s compared to 716 m / s. at guns on armadillos of the Brandenburg type. One type of 2,8-caliber (672 mm) projectile with a bottom fuse had an explosive charge of 2,88 kg (2%). Coloring: red with a black head. The second type with a length of 2,4 calibers (576 mm) was a solid steel shell (blank) with an armor-piercing cap. Coloring: blue with a black fringing. The charge for both types of shells consisted of two half-charges and weighed 40,5 kg of tubular (pasta) gunpowder grade C / 98. The total ammunition was 300 rounds, or 75 per barrel, versus 352 for Brandenburg type battleships. Of these, for each gun there were 62 shells of 2,8 caliber length with a bottom fuse and 12 solid steel shells of 2,4 caliber length.

                    The design of the gun provided an aimed rate of fire of one shot per minute. The practical rate of fire was 2 shots in 3 minutes. The weight of the main volley guns of the main caliber was 280 kg per minute.

                    Kaiser type 240 armadillo guns fired the same way as Royal Sovereign type 343 mm armadillo guns and slower than the Majestic type armadillo guns of 305 mm. Such a result should be attributed to the use of a heavy weight wedge lock, the handling of which was much more difficult than with piston locks of the English and French systems. The British had a very perfect piston shutter with step cutting, used by Armstrong for large and medium caliber guns, and it took only 5-7 seconds for it to open and close.

                    A solid 2,4-gauge steel shell (blank) at a distance of 1000 m at a viewing angle of 60 ° to 90 ° pierced a 600-mm plate of rolled iron armor, a 420-mm compound plate of armor and a 300-mm plate of surface-hardened steel-nickel armor . When a hardened steel-nickel armor hits a plate, a 2,8-caliber projectile with a bottom fuse cracked for the most part.
                    Such, whether Panimash, were Germans smile
                    1. 0
                      20 May 2019 07: 22
                      When a hardened steel-nickel armor hits a plate, a 2,8-caliber projectile with a bottom fuse cracked for the most part.


                      alas, this thesis is valid, IMHO, for most of the shells of that time, while, in my opinion, Russian BBs were almost the best

                      There is a nuance, on Naval Vipons, for example, the nomenclature is this:
                      AP L / 2.6 C / 01: 308.6 lbs. (140 kg)
                      Common L / 2.8 C / 01: 308.6 lbs. (140 kg)
                      that is, 2,8 caliber is the so-called "Cammon", often translated as semi-armor-piercing (let's call it 240 mm / 2,8 caliber)
                      but the classic AR was 240 mm / 2,6 caliber, a blank 240 mm / 2,4 caliber,
                      but here we need to double-check, maybe what I missed

                      nevertheless I repeat:

                      Russian armor-piercing shells were optimized for armored damage when firing from a distance of 10-20 cable, here, IMHO, there were no questions about the Brink tube


                      Threat. and who had armor-piercing shells then much better?
                    2. +1
                      20 May 2019 07: 34
                      Despite the decrease in caliber, the power of the main caliber artillery decreased slightly, due to an increase in the velocity of the projectile near the cut of the gun barrel.


                      request
                      for 280/35 projectile weight 240 kg initial velocity 685 m / s
                      for 240/40 projectile weight 140 kg initial velocity 690 m / s
              2. 0
                20 May 2019 09: 39
                Many thanks! Do you know the name of the author of this live journal?
            2. 0
              19 May 2019 21: 14
              What kind of Japanese developers are we talking about?
              Did the Japanese at that time have competencies on this topic?
              Andrei insists all the time that the shells in Tsushima were different.
              But, somewhere he mentioned that new shells were not tested before this.
              Did the mass of shells change?
              Not ?
              Has the length changed?
              Has external ballistics changed?
              And could you use the previous shooting tables?
              Or were new ones composed?
              1. 0
                20 May 2019 09: 59
                Dear ignoto: what moral right do you have to ask these questions?
                Did the Japanese at that time have competencies on this topic? Andrei insists all the time that the shells in Tsushima were different. But, somewhere he mentioned that new shells were not tested before this. Did the mass of shells change? No ?
                Has the length changed?
                Has external ballistics changed?
                And could you use the previous shooting tables?
                Or were new ones composed?

                The essence of my claim to you is that I assume that in the design of shells, explosives and fuses, terrible secrecy was applied to the shells and almost nothing was made publicly available, except for the simplest information like the weight of shells and the weight of explosives in them. As I already wrote to you all - at the beginning of the Russo-Japanese War, the fuses of Japanese shells were undoubtedly defective - there was a huge percentage of Japanese shells not exploding (as well as the Russians, but the Russians did not even know about it until the very end of the war). But in contrast, Russian newspapers widely covered the fact that Japanese shells very often did not explode. And then in the Japanese arsenals, their engineers apparently began to carry out feverish work to improve fuses. Read carefully if you (all readers, and not just one ignorant) did not understand what I wrote! I wrote that, according to my assumption, Japanese engineers improved only fuses, and at the same time did not change the shells themselves. That is, they did not design new shells, did not manufacture them, and did not stuff new explosives into them. And they just turned the fuses out and started experimenting with them - I assume that they just put weaker safety springs to fire the fuse. And in the second period of the war, their shells began to explode beautifully. But I’m sure that all this huge work is still strictly classified, and in fact nothing reliable has been published about this work to improve Japanese fuses. Many history buffs, from great stupidity, ask naive questions such as: Have Japanese shells to Tsushima changed during the Russo-Japanese war?
                But in fact there is no honest answer to this question from the Japanese state and never will be! Because it has been more than a hundred years after the Russo-Japanese war, and so far no one has bothered to publish an article on how work has been done to improve Japanese fuses. And all lovers of naval history are just fools who do not understand that the most important thing that happened to Japanese shells is kept secret from them? All of you are happy to ask naive questions, but no one understood that for a hundred years there has not been a single official answer! And this means that the topic of Japanese shells is still brutally classified!
            3. -1
              23 May 2019 18: 26
              So it was still an English ammunition. Someone once argued here that English shells were the best. Only the English armor-piercing ones were with black powder until the First World War and were torn through one or on the principle of smoke-stink-fire.
              When the English shells ended, then loaded shells with shimoza.
              Moreover, the Japanese were most likely unsatisfied with their action under Tsushima. Because then they armed their ships with the same unexploded armor-piercing shells. And one of the British wrote that high-explosive shells are ineffective. Too many hits needed.
        2. 0
          19 May 2019 22: 56
          What happened to the developer of the shock tube Brink after 1905?

          "On January 1, 1906, he was appointed teacher of the Mikhailovsky Artillery Academy. Chief inspector of naval artillery in 1907-1911.

          Head of the artillery department of the General Directorate of Shipbuilding and Supplies since 1911.

          In 1913, Brink retired for health reasons. "
          1. 0
            19 May 2019 23: 10
            Chief inspector of naval artillery in 1907-1911.


            namely, according to the results of the analysis, the RPE went up and under his leadership developed the best in the world at that time arr. 1911, could this be if his double pipe was as bad as everyone thinks?
            1. 0
              19 May 2019 23: 13
              Sorry, what does it mean "everyone thinks" ???))) Everything - this, you know, smells like)))) At one time everyone thought about turtles and elephants, then - to take away and divide everything, then everyone was impatient with sausages and cars with jeans ....... We know a little about the results ...
              1. 0
                19 May 2019 23: 17
                sorry, and where does everyone think about everything?

                Let's merge with the topic of the answer to a simple question:
                If the Brink tube is the cause of the defeat in the REV, then why is Brink
                According to the results of the analysis, the RNV went on to increase and under his leadership developed the best in the world at that time shells mod. 1911, could it be if his double pipe was so bad
                ?
                1. +2
                  19 May 2019 23: 25
                  I furiously apologize, there was no discharge at all)))
                  In the same way as it will not, because there is no plum and slime championship here .....
                  But a certain misunderstanding, by virtue of my tongue-tied tongue nee, easily had to be))
                  As for Brink - have I ever broadcasted, sho his deeds are wretched? Sobssno, and never intended, because I have a pretty good idea of ​​how the product might look in real life and how it correlates with the drawings ......
                  It was just that your comment said, "Could this be if his double pipe was as bad as everyone thinks?"
                  To which I, miserable, noticed that "everyone" can consider anything, as a rule, this has nothing to do with reality. I had no complaints against Brink and am not going to have.
                  1. 0
                    19 May 2019 23: 27
                    sorry, then, did not understand you, I apologize
                    1. 0
                      19 May 2019 23: 28
                      Duc, not at all))))) Everyone can be wrong, even if they do not want to ....
                2. +1
                  23 May 2019 18: 35
                  Brink did what he was ordered to do.
                  In the same way, Japanese WWII shells from heavy cruisers to battleships pierced everything where there was no armor without an explosion. And the British sewed "Bismarck" through the superstructures through and through, then exploded on the opposite side.
                  Our shells pierced the armor. And our shells eased at the suggestion of Makarov.
                  There was a task at such and such battle distances to ensure penetration of armor and accuracy - our science provided, including Brink. And the fact that the sailors overslept the question of increasing distances and a lot of everything else is a question for them. Blindness is astounding. The war was in full swing, and no one had studied the experience. Apparently the property of a warrior is this - until they wash themselves with blood, they will not begin to think. Those that survived.
                  1. -1
                    23 May 2019 23: 13
                    There was a task at such and such battle distances to ensure penetration of armor and accuracy - our science provided, including Brink.


                    Yes sir!

                    the fact that the sailors slept through the question of increasing distances and a lot of everything else is a question for them. Blindness is astounding.


                    the distance under Tsushima reached 12-15 cable, IMHO, everything as our admirals ordered) although the rule of the decisive episodes of the battle was 23-30 cable, also the distance of superiority of our shells
                    1. +1
                      24 May 2019 10: 23
                      Well, yes. Tsushima mainly walked at distances favorable for our shells. Maybe only for 20 cab. is not the same. But the constant references to the fact that the Japanese were shooting from long distances still hammer in their heads and sit there. Jump out of the fog for 10 cab. on "Alexander III" this is not a long distance at all. You could see Togo on the bridge.
              2. 0
                20 May 2019 19: 14
                Sorry, what does it mean "everyone thinks" ???))) Everything - this, you know, smells like)))) At one time everyone thought about turtles and elephants, then - to take away and divide everything, then everyone was impatient with sausages and cars with jeans ....... We know a little about the results ...


                It was normal and on OLD shells it worked as it should. But on newer ....
                Met an explanation that "improved the quality of aluminum" in one of the elements. As a result - aluminum "ears", which had to be cut off (and cut off at old shells), on new shells they are no longer cut.
                Well, "rationalizers" .... (Although personally I think that this "rationalization" was deliberate, because it is impossible to make aluminum "better" - it is harder only in an alloy. That is, it is only intentionally possible to do this )
                1. +1
                  20 May 2019 20: 03
                  Dear colleague Andrey also provided information on the extremely low content of explosives in the shells. Those. even if they were torn, the effect was nearly zero. EMNIP, on "Mikas" in this way it was possible to destroy the casemate six-inch only with a DIRECT hit, and close hits only showered it with small fragments and disabled the calculations, but nothing more. But now I speak from memory, I can be very mistaken - I have not been engaged in "technical" for a long time recourse
                  1. +1
                    20 May 2019 22: 17
                    Dear colleague Andrei also provided information on the extremely low explosive content in shells.

                    The content of explosives was normal there; normal for an armor-piercing projectile.

                    Those. even if they were torn, the effect was near-zero.

                    Not true. When they were regularly torn --- then the effect was. Look at hits from the 3rd TOE --- they hit a few times, but for some reason these hits were the most impressive. And they had shells the old and they burst as expected. It is these hits that are usually cited as proof that "yes GOOD, Rozhdestvensky had shells!" But no: it was Nebogatov who had good shells - while Rozhestvensky had blanks.
                    I'm too lazy to look now, but for example, on the same site, the bulk manual contains a description of the results of hits from the 3rd TOE (and the owner uses them to prove that "the shells were good")
                    1. +1
                      20 May 2019 22: 36
                      Quote: AK64
                      Look at the hits from the 3th TOE --- they hit a few times, but for some reason these hits turned out to be the most impressive.

                      The old shells had a normal explosive content, even taking into account the fact that the explosive there was not pyroxylin, but EMNIP brown or black powder. According to NavVeps, the "old" land mine is 12,4 kg, "the new one is 24,5 kg, for armor piercing, alas, there is no information on old guns, and for new ones - 5,3 kg. For comparison, the Japanese have explosive content in shells, according to the same NavVeps , at least 19,3 kg in armor-piercing (in fact, semi-armor-piercing).

                      For the rest of the details - to our respected colleague Andrey and the cycle "Myths of Tsushima", I saw information about the low content of BB there, or in the articles themselves, or in the comments, and everything was with documentary justification.
                      1. 0
                        21 May 2019 08: 32
                        In old shells there was a normal content of explosives, even taking into account that the explosives there were not pyroxylin, but EMNIP brown or black powder.

                        In this case, by "old" I mean exactly the same pyroxylin shells with a Brink tube - but of an earlier manufacture: for some reason they exploded normally.
                        It was such shells that were on the 3rd TOE, and they are given as an example of the effectiveness of Russian shells.
                        But only on the 2nd TOE there were shells of more recent manufacture - and did not explode.

                        For comparison, the Japanese have the content of explosives in shells, according to the same NavVeps, the smallest is 19,3 kg in armor-piercing (in fact, semi-armor-piercing).

                        That's why the Japanese shells did not pierce anything.

                        Let’s you still try to understand what has been said?
                        There are different concepts of what a projectile should be. The Japanese followed British opinions and believed that the shell should have the most high-explosive actions. The Russians put on armor-piercing (and, accordingly, the lower explosive content and its lower power --- the picric was not very suitable for armor-piercing shells, and TNT was not there then).
                        But I'm not going to discuss or criticize the concepts --- I’m talking about something else entirely: the problem is not that the concept was bad --- the problem is that the shells did not explode corny. Those that exploded - fully confirmed the effectiveness. That's only from the shells of the 2nd TOE exploded only the ancient powder.

                        For other details - to our respected colleague Andrey and the cycle "Myths of Tsushima",
                        Thanks - no need: I read and disagree.
                        Let’s better. Will I give you advice? https://naval-manual.livejournal.com/ just recently a series of articles about shells. Literally the first couple of pages. Note that I disagree completely with the conclusions (for the author misinterprets), but you will find a lot of factual information.

                        This is from what lies on top, from the completely accessible. In general, there is a lot of information, including about the reasons for non-explosions. (You see, it turns out that there were reasons! They carried out an investigation, carried it out. Contrary to your opinions that "everything is fine," we conducted an investigation. And the shells immediately began to change - at first they returned to gunpowder altogether.)
                      2. +1
                        21 May 2019 13: 16
                        Contrary to your opinions that "yes everything is good"

                        E no, my friend, do not rush to ascribe to me what I did not say stop I did not say that "everything is fine", you invented it. I did not deny that some of the shells might not explode, moreover, I am sure of that. But the low content of explosives in Russian shells, which is PROVEN by colleague Andrey, coupled with non-explosions, gives exactly the effect that took place in reality - in order to effectively influence the enemy ship, the shells had to both explode and have a sufficiently powerful gap, otherwise even an explosion the shell will be like an elephant grain. What actually happened - there are holes, no sense. Although some are persistently trying to prove that even steel blanks can cause great harm to ships with a displacement of 15 thousand tons laughing

                        My words should not be taken as a denial of problems with gaps in favor of the content of explosives, but as an addition to the general criticism of the design of new shells that have not been tested in practice, but fell into service with new ships, which predetermined such a devastating outcome Tsushima once, and in Yellow Sea EMNIP had questions to the effectiveness of the impact of shells too.
                      3. +2
                        21 May 2019 19: 23
                        I did not deny that part of the shells could not explode, moreover, I am sure of this.

                        Not a "part" but practically all the new shells of the 2nd TOE. Several hits that the 3rd TOE achieved made a much greater impression on the enemy and caused much more damage. For some reason. And after all, there are smaller guns and shells

                        But the low explosive content in Russian shells, which is PROVEN by colleague Andrei,

                        Excuse me, but what is there to "prove"? You can only prove that with equal probability the opposite can be. In the same cases, they do not "prove" - ​​just look at the reference books. (And today everything is on the Web)

                        coupled with the continuity, it gives exactly the effect that took place in reality - for effective impact on the enemy ship, the shells had to explode and have a sufficiently powerful gap, otherwise even the armored explosion of the shell would be like an elephant shot.

                        provide me such a service - read the results of hits of the 3rd TOE. Nebogatovtsy hit a few times --- but for some reason it was these hits that were VERY impressive (and it is precisely them that all give an example of the effectiveness of Russian shells). While the numerous hits of the 2nd TOE somehow did not impress the Japanese. That is, what exploded was quite adequate for itself.

                        I, so it happened, is familiar with pyroxylin. 2 kg of pyroxylin --- this is not at all as small as you think. for information: a 76mm high explosive shell from the Second World War contained somewhere around 700 grams of TNT - this is the equivalent of a kilogram of pyroxylin. Are you sure that a high-explosive 76mm shell will seem like a trifle in an explosion in a room? So in the Russian armor-piercing model 1892 pyroxylin was 2 kg (well, almost)

                        My words should not be taken as a denial of problems with gaps in favor of the contents of explosives, but as an addition to the general criticism of the design of new shells that have not been tested in practice,

                        I repeat again: NORMAL were shells. On 330 kg pyroxylin, armor-piercing simply cannot be shoved anymore. And when they exploded, they completely inspired.
                        And the design was completely tested - arr 1892. Just a few years before the war, the products were not tested normally. "Marriage" is precisely a few pre-war years.
        3. 0
          22 May 2019 12: 24
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Vigeft’s shells exploded? Witgeft went to Vladik?

          If 1TOE 28 July showed comparable accuracy with 2 TOE in Tsushima, it would not only have passed, but Mikasa would have been at the bottom of the sea, and maybe someone else besides.
          1. +2
            22 May 2019 15: 06
            If 1TOE 28 July showed comparable accuracy with 2 TOE in Tsushima, it would not only have passed, but Mikasa would have been at the bottom of the sea, and maybe someone else besides.


            If everything that got into that battle in Mikasu (22 hits, 16 of which are 12 and 10 inches) would explode .....

            But the shot in that battle is really unimportant. Yes, and maneuvered too ....
            For example, I ask myself: well, why would Vitgeft and not turn right at 8 points in the first salvo of Poltava? (The Japanese were 4 rumba behind the beam of the lagging Poltava) After all, I would have won the fight.
    4. -1
      19 May 2019 20: 38
      I advise you to read Boris Galenin's two-volume book "Tsushima - the Sign of the End of Russian History".
      1. 0
        19 May 2019 23: 10
        I advise you to read Boris Galenin's two-volume book "Tsushima - the Sign of the End of Russian History".


        read, analyzed)
  17. +4
    19 May 2019 12: 07
    Thank you Andrew for the next article.
    Regarding the actions of Rozhdestvensky, he has not yet given up his opinion. it is not clear, on the one hand, there seemed to be a number of competent actions, on the other hand, complete inaction in some issues.
    The allocation of the four battleships in a separate line, in my opinion, gave an advantage over the start of the battle. At one time, Pts was interested in this topic, worked out the beginning of the battle on the simulator, always a separate formation allowed him to maneuver, besides, it misleads the enemy, preventing him from initially building a stick above the "T".
    Only in battle Rozhdestvensky did not take advantage of the speed of these battleships, but led the entire squadron with a 9-junction speed, and even when rebuilding, he hurried, forcing the Oslyabya to almost stop, which became fatal for him.
    Although, as I already wrote, we analyze the situation, knowing the results of the battle, and come up with options for winning it. At that time, no one expected such losses, there were no precedents. And the supposed win for Tsushima, even taking into account the impeccable actions based on the analysis of modern "experts", is not one hundred percent. Perhaps yes, perhaps not, the squadron may die with heavy enemy losses, perhaps they would disperse, etc. The Japanese fleet was strong and really had the advantage on all counts. A breakthrough to Vladivostok while avoiding a battle was the only correct option. Not to mention the fact that, in general, strategically this venture is meaningless and Rozhdestvensky initially refused it, but the high authorities decided so.
    1. -1
      19 May 2019 21: 04
      Regarding Rozhdestvensky’s actions, he will turn to psychologists.
      There are dozens of psychological theories of personality.
      Oddly enough, but astrological theory is not the worst.
      It allows you to get around the main problem - motivation.
      According to astrologers, the most successful generals were born in the year of the Rooster.
      In second place are people born in the year of the Monkey.
      In our case, both Rozhdestvensky and Togo were born in the year of the Monkey.
      But, according to the same astrologers, it is not recommended to give people born in the year of the Monkey full power. The year is the most intelligent, but it happens that brings. Very much. Woe from the mind.
      Rokossovsky and Zhukov. There are no claims to Rokossovsky. And to Zhukov?
  18. 0
    19 May 2019 20: 58
    Quote: voyaka uh
    ". ...
    Look: how many towers on modern ships? - only one. We came to this gradually, but the tendency is inexorable.

    It is necessary to have a bite. On modern ships, the main weapon is artillery?
  19. +4
    19 May 2019 22: 48
    Quote: sevtrash
    Kostenko and Swede talk about overload of Orel in 1090 tons. Where did you get 2000?

    Kostenko
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +2
      19 May 2019 23: 37
      From the testimony
      1. +6
        20 May 2019 00: 18
        Consider the most talked about position, coal.

        Let's try to figure out how much coal could be on the battleship, taking as a basis the data from the signal book of the 2 cruiser of the Almaz rank. On the morning of May 13, “Orel”, in response to a traditional request from “Prince Suvorov,” showed the value in 1 095 tons of coal (Russian-Japanese War 1904-1905 of the Fleet. Documents. Division IV. Book Three. Issue 5-th. PGD, 1914. S. 69).


        According to the reports of Z. P. Rozhestvensky during the campaign, 1 100 tons of coal were enough for 1 900 miles (9,25-9,5 knots / hour). Based on these data, we determine the daily consumption of coal:

        a) 1 900 / 9,25 = 205,40 hours; 1 100 / 205,40 = 5,355 t / h; 5,355 t. X 24 hours = 128,52 t / day.

        b) 1 900 / 9,5 = 200,00 hours; 1 100 / 200,00 = 5,5 t / h; 5,5 t. X 24 hours = 132,00 t / day.

        Thus, the coal consumption on Borodino-type battleships at a speed of 9,25-9,5 ranged from 128,52 to 132 tons per day, therefore, on the morning of 14 on May 1905 there was (1 095 - 128,52 = 966,48 t.; 1 095 - 132,00 = 963 tons) from 963 tons to 966,48 tons of coal.
        The normal fuel supply was 787,2 tons, therefore, the coal margin was from 175,8 t. to 179,28 t., if not less, given that by the morning of 14 in May all the boilers were bred to give full speed.
        As you can see, the figure obtained differs significantly from both 370 and 400 tons, cited by Kostenko in two sources.
        Output.
        It is impossible to trust Vladimir Polievktovich, everything needs to be checked and recounted.
      2. +1
        21 May 2019 10: 51
        Quote: sevtrash
        From the testimony

        Plus construction overload approx. 600t.
  20. +4
    20 May 2019 02: 45
    Quote: geniy
    And there was no calculation time at all for Heihatiro Togo. So to expect the exact time of the approach of the Russian squadron, the Japanese had no opportunity

    It is not.
    On 25 on May 1905 on board the Mikasa, Admiral Togo held a military council and handed over sealed packages to the squadron commanders and commanders of the Combat Units, which they had to be opened by special order.

    The packages contained an order as follows.
    1. Due to the fact that until now the nickname has not appeared in this direction, I assume that the enemy squadron bypassed in the direction of the northern seas.
    2. From this moment, the Joint Fleet goes in the direction of the northern seas to meet the enemy.
    3. The course, timetable, travel order and speed for the 1 and 2 squadrons are given in the diagram attached to this order.
    4. The 3 I squadron operates according to a special plan and must, after the exit, follow the main forces in the same course.
    5. “Chihaya”, “Tatsuta” and “Yaeyama” are appointed by communications ships and with a speed of 14 nodes must start moving ahead of the main forces, at the transition, maintain contact with the coastal SNiS posts (Surveillance and Communications Service), and in emergency cases go closer to the main forces and keep in touch with them by wireless telegraph.
    6. All destroyer naval bases and auxiliary cruisers, leading the destroyer detachments, must follow the course of communications ships along N along the coast and arrive in the area to S from Cape Kodomari.
    7. If weather conditions change at this transition, the following rendezvous points are set for the main forces: 1th day of the transition - Oka Islands, 2th day of the transition - Oshima Island. Communication ships, destroyers and other forces in this case act on the situation.
    8. After arriving at the island of Oshima, the United Fleet operates according to the situation, the area to its S from Cape Kodomari is defined as its temporary anchorage.
    9. The detachment of ships and special purpose ships and all other ships and vessels must act in accordance with the orders that they will receive in a separate order.
    10. This order comes into force on the day on which the order to open the package is received, the exit time will be transmitted by a separate signal.

    After the military council, Admiral Togo informed the head of the Moscow State School about his plans for telegraph dispatches:
    “If before 12: 00 26 May "Nick does not appear on this direction, then our fleet in the second half of the same day will begin the transition to the northern direction."
    1. +1
      20 May 2019 11: 18
      “If before 12: 00 26 May "Nick does not appear on this direction, then our fleet in the second half of the same day will begin the transition to the northern direction."

      Dear Comrade, it’s very interesting (for an ignoramus like me)) May 26, May 13 Julian? But 2ToE was opened on the morning of the 14th. Then how did it happen that Togo had not yet gone north?
      Yet your comment does not refute, but confirms the second part of the Passer-by's judgment - that "the Japanese had no opportunity to expect the exact time of the approach of the Russian squadron."
      The Military Council, the distribution of sealed tiles with orders ... how strikingly different it is from Rozhdestvensky's behavior, which did not inform (it's not about discussions) anyone about his intentions, tactical options (which the author so convincingly examines))) ...
      1. -1
        21 May 2019 10: 54
        [/ quote] But after all 2ToE opened on the morning of the 14th. Then how did it happen that Togo had not yet gone north? [Quote]

        ZPR once again went wrong, - sent transports to Shanghai. That is why it slowed down.
        1. 0
          21 May 2019 10: 57
          ... sent transports to Shanghai ...

          But when did this information get Togo? Indeed, in 24 hours they would not have time to come there.
          1. 0
            21 May 2019 11: 08
            Quote: anzar
            ... sent transports to Shanghai ...

            But when did this information get Togo? Indeed, in 24 hours they would not have time to come there.

            Why, 24 hours, is almost 500 km.
            1. 0
              21 May 2019 11: 14
              24 hours is almost 500 km

              Yeah, I did it cunningly. And why didn’t I buy Chinese fireworks? It’s better to be identified, and to illuminate the attacking Yap at night. destroyers))
    2. +1
      20 May 2019 12: 04
      and if ZPR had sent empty TRs not to Shanghai, 4 VSKR would not have separated, but would have sent this horde with GS and armored units to Sangarsky, calculating the entrance to the visibility zone from the shore by the evening of May 16-17 (or a little later - the issue of navigational calculation, and with 2 TOE would be engaged in evolutions feel ), Togo would have faced a very difficult choice ... hi commonplace military trick ... bully
  21. +2
    20 May 2019 05: 26
    Thank you, the article is interesting. It provides a rationale for the action of Rozhestvensky, but it does not follow from this that Admiral Rozhdestvensky is an intelligent person. If we talk about this example, then building a front line is a one-way ticket. After that, returning the front to the column, changing the speed, just turning it will not succeed. The fighting experience has shown that it is simply impossible to transmit a signal to everyone. The front line can somehow be tried for two or three ships. But not for the twelve. A large squadron in the front is devoid of command and initiative. If in the real Tsushima battle Russian ships somehow maneuvered, then under Yalu the Chinese squadron stupidly advanced forward at six permanent nodes, quickly losing ship after ship on both flanks. The Japanese did not only remember Yalu’s experience, of course, it was for them the standard of wisdom of their military leaders and the standard of stupidity of the enemy. Never anywhere in the entire Japanese war have any Japanese and no Russian detachments fought before the destroyers including the front line. Therefore, the attacks of the Japanese in the formation of the front Rozhestvensky could not be afraid. Accordingly, there was no need to build their ships in the front. Especially when you take into account the very opinion of Rozhestvensky about the squadron’s ability to complex rebuilds.
  22. +2
    20 May 2019 05: 34
    warrant officer Demchinsky described this episode in a different way:


    I have a question for the venerable Andrei from Chelyabinsk. But what about the version about Japanese destroyers, as if about to throw floating mines? Is she already completely canceled and forgotten, like sheer nonsense? During the investigation, Rozhestvensky remembered about floating mines or didn’t remember at all? Maybe in vain confused his head historian?
    1. +4
      20 May 2019 14: 50
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      And what about the version about the Japanese destroyers, as if they were going to throw floating mines? Is she, already completely canceled and forgotten, like deliberate nonsense?

      This "nonsense" with the highest degree of probability blew up one EBR in Tsushima, but it is possible that after all two
  23. +2
    20 May 2019 11: 45
    Hmm, the author completely went into the alternative and frankly distorts the facts ... request
    "1) Many copies were broken on the topic of detachment from the 2nd Pacific squadron of a high-speed detachment of 5 newest battleships. 2) But such an action would be justified only if the indicated 5 battleships, acting together, could develop speed more than the Japanese fleet. In this case, they could really try to outplay H. Togo, compensating for their small numbers with an advantageous tactical position. 3) But this, of course, was not the case - according to the author of this article, the best Russian battleships could not go together faster than 13 13,5 knots, while the Japanese - 15 knots, and for a short time and more. 4) And even if we assume that the 1st armored detachment and "Oslyabya" were not inferior in speed to the Japanese, then their separation into a separate detachment is all 5) Lacking superiority in speed, they still could not deliver the "crossing the T" to the Japanese fleet. 6) Thus, everything would come down to the fact that the five best Russian ships overtook about steel forces and were forced to fight 7) a dozen Japanese armored ships without the support of "sluggish": 8) The balance of forces is so unequal that it "killed" the Russian squadron no worse than the notorious "crossing the T". "
    1) And here is the latest EDB - there were 6 EDBs with new artillery, why was Sisa forgotten? Why is it 4 * 12/40 worse? and speed 14uz ...
    2) Even the close speed of squadrons is depriving the Japanese of crossing over (see above the author himself bully )
    3) 15-13, 5 = 1,5 ... not enough to 2 bully , and the Japanese could not keep the whole 15th time ...
    4) Aha, as the Japanese do not beat, they are not killed ... bully
    5) Consequently, there will be a battle in the wake, then 24 Russian 12 and 10dm guns against 17 Japanese ...
    6) still 6, see point 1. hi
    7) even with the flagship abeam from the head Kamimura BRKR to the end EBR of the Russians, there is still + 5-6 cabs due to the fact that the distance between the squadrons is greater than between the ships, and from the end Japanese BRKR there is another +15 cab ... The angle for the guns is not particularly good ... so the Japanese EBRs would shoot at the most convenient target - the Nebogatov detachment (IN1, Navarin, Nakhimov + 3 BBOs), and this is far from easy prey - 2 * 12 "/ 30, 4 * 12 "/ 35, 2 * 229, 11 * 810" and 6 * 8 "/ 35 ... (25 guns 8 and more dm) versus 24 * 8" Kamimura ... by the way, it was IN1 that knocked out "obsolete" 12 dm / 30 Asamu ... hi
    8) A highly controversial statement - the battle in the BM refutes this - at close speeds of the squadrons, the Japanese were close to defeat ... bully
  24. +2
    20 May 2019 11: 58
    and further the author continues to carry nonsense ... request
    "But the squadron of N.I. Nebogatov, who recently joined him, simply did not have time to gain experience in joint operations with the 2nd Pacific."
    3TOE is alloyed - add Navarin and Nakhimov to it at the end of the system - ships with experienced crews - there is enough time from Kamrani to Tsushima ... bully
    "The Japanese were superior to the Russians in literally every aspect: they were faster, maneuvered better, and had combat experience."
    but they were inferior in such "trifles" as the number of EBRs and heavy (10-12 dm) guns ... bully maybe ZPR just had to realize their advantages?
    "The Russian ilvater column would directly" ask for "the" stick over the T ","
    But what prevents ZPR from trusting the enemy in opposition? It will turn out to be a battle on the opposite courses - as the 1st phase of the battle in the LM ...
    "But, moving in two wake columns, ZP Rozhestvensky could successfully fend off any of these options, p"
    "The Russian commander made a lot of efforts to train the ships entrusted to him in maneuvering, although he did not achieve much success in this."
    1) the author forgot what he writes in the beginning? bully
    2) the "cunning" plan was not communicated to the flagships and commanders of the EBR, which, given the means of communication at that time, was stupidity and carelessness! hi Or otmazonom ...
    1. 0
      20 May 2019 14: 49
      Another set of meaningless phrases, a complete misunderstanding of the situation in each paragraph.
      If any of the readers are interested in the refutation of this or that "revelation" of Sergei - write, I will tell you what he is mistaken about. Alas, it is useless to explain to him himself.
      1. -2
        20 May 2019 15: 23
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Another set of meaningless phrases, a complete misunderstanding of the situation in each paragraph.

        Thank you for acknowledging your inability to answer in essence! bully
        I hope, at your leisure, count the number of large-caliber guns 10-12 dm at Togo and ZPR squadrons ... request
        1. +1
          20 May 2019 19: 02
          Quote: ser56
          Thank you for acknowledging your inability to respond in substance.

          I am ready, but not to you. Because I have already answered many of these questions to you, but you, without objecting to the substance of the answers, continue to ask the same questions.
          And if someone is interested, then please
          1. +1
            21 May 2019 15: 48
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            keep asking the same questions.

            from what? you just have nothing to answer a direct question about your speculation like:
            "The balance of forces is so unequal that it" killed "the Russian squadron no worse than the notorious" crossing the T "."
            in my answer, I pointed out that you "forgot" about several factors that make your thesis funny:
            1) In 2TOE 6 EDB with new artillery, i.e. 24 10-12dm guns, Togo has only 17 ... and why is Sisa bad for you? request
            2) At close speeds of squadrons (13-14 and 14-15 knots), quick lead-out is impossible - from here there will be a battle of 6 Russian EDB against Togo, the balance of forces on the Civil Code, see paragraph 1 - Russians have 1,5 overweight ...
            (Mikasa Suvorov’s lead by 10 cabs from the traverse will take an hour, the Russians will have time to make up to 24 shots from 720 guns (a 2-minute shot), i.e., at 3%, they will reach 20-22 GK hits, which, when the fire is concentrated on the flagship, will make Mikasu close to state in battle in LM).
            3) Even if Kamimura goes to the wake of Togo, he can shoot only at the terminal EBR of the Russians, while the distance when fighting 2TOE / Togo by 25 cabs will be more than 35 cabs for Kamimura, i.e. accuracy of 8dm guns will be small .. etc.
            It is clear that it is impossible to answer my objections in essence, therefore, it remains a classic to switch to personalities bully
  25. +1
    21 May 2019 00: 11
    Quote: anzar
    26 May 13 May Julian? But after all, 2 was opened in the morning of 14. Then how did it happen that Togo had not yet gone north?

    Perhaps this event has affected.
    1. 0
      21 May 2019 10: 20
      Perhaps this event has affected.

      Sorry, but did not understand. How did the shipping on May 12 affect? They did not have time to reach Shanghai, noticed them at sea?
      But the council you mentioned was also held on the 12th, and in accordance with the decision, the 13th after 12h. should go north. Counted hours ...
      1. +1
        22 May 2019 01: 28
        Quote: anzar
        Sorry, but did not understand. How did sending 12 transports in May affect?

        Very simple.
        If before 12: 00 26 May The 2-I Pacific Squadron would not have appeared on the approaches to the Tsushima Strait. In the second half of the same day, the United Fleet would have gone north.
        However, in the morning of May 26 Togo received a telegram from the head of the Moscow State School of the following contents:
        "Telegram from Shanghai from 00: 05 26 May.
        "AT 14: 30 25 May three ships of the Voluntary Fleet and five transports entered Shanghai
        "".
        Togo took note of the information received and changed his plans, left to wait for Rozhdestvensky.

        So my comment from May 20 2019 02: 45 does not confirm, but disproves
        the second part of the Passer-by's judgment is that "the Japanese had no opportunity to expect the exact time of the approach of the Russian squadron."
        The Japanese had the full opportunity, and they took advantage of it.
        1. +1
          22 May 2019 19: 41
          Well this is how unlucky
  26. -1
    21 May 2019 00: 22
    Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
    And what about the version about the Japanese destroyers, as if they were going to throw floating mines? Is she, already completely canceled and forgotten, like deliberate nonsense?

    For the last time, the battleship Navarin was attacked by the 4 marching detachment of the 2 fleet consisting of the Asagiri, Murasame, Asashio and Shirakumo fighters in 27 miles northeast of Cape Karasaki.
    The Japanese were met by the fire 47 mm and 37 mm of the Navarina guns, despite which they managed to drop six bundles of mines across the course of the battleship (type “Gō kirai 1”, adopted in October 1904), each of which consisted of four , articulated by a cable, mines, with the help of floats held at a depth of six meters.
    Two of these mines almost simultaneously hit the Navarin, the first in the area of ​​the stoker’s compartment in the middle of the starboard side, and the second in the midsection of the port side. The entire machine crew was killed, the “Escape” command soon sounded, the battleship began to roll to starboard and disappeared under water in 7-10 minutes.

    There is a multi-page document in Japanese devoted to the development, design features and combat use of this witty and effective system. The document is well illustrated, in particular, there is a plan for scattering mine ligaments on the movement path of the 2-th Pacific squadron during the Tsushima battle.
    Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
    During the investigation, Rozhestvensky remembered about floating mines or didn’t remember at all?

    How could Rozhestvensky remember the mine bonds if information about them became available to the general public only about ten to twelve years ago?
    1. 0
      21 May 2019 17: 56
      Quote: Comrade
      How could Rozhestvensky remember the mine bonds if information about them became available to the general public only about ten to twelve years ago?


      Suspecting the Japanese plan to go under our noses and throw floating mines (as they did on July 28), the admiral decided to deploy the XNUMXst detachment with his front to the right, in order to drive off the enemy with the fire of his five best armadillos.
         To this end, the 8st armored detachment first turned "sequentially" to the right by 90 points (8 degrees), and then had to turn XNUMX points to the left "all of a sudden." The first half of the maneuver was a success, but on the second there was a misunderstanding with the signal: "Alexander" went into the wake of "Suvorov", and "Borodino" and "Oryol", which had already begun to turn "suddenly", imagined that they were mistaken, turned away and followed " Alexander ". As a result, instead of the front, Detachment I found itself in a wake column, parallel to the column of II and III detachments and slightly pushed forward.
      "Pay"

      Do you think that the Japanese had a destroyer with floating mines on decks on the afternoon of May 14, or only imagined Rozhdestvensky and Semenov?
      1. +2
        21 May 2019 19: 06
        Firstly, floating mines are one thing, and mine bundles are another.
        Secondly, the dumping of mine ligaments, planned by the Japanese at the beginning of the battle, for an objective reason had to be postponed to a later time.

        The answer to your question is that there were no floating mines on the decks of the Japanese destroyers that took part in the Tsushima battle. Just as they were not there 28 July 1904 g.
        Nowadays, online archives fiction is subjected to a rigorous test of strength.
  27. +1
    23 May 2019 18: 44
    A brief summary.

    1. The idea of ​​Rozhestvensky was itself stupid to the limit. Walking all the time in a marching order, so that at the last moment in the face of the enemy, suddenly turn into something that the enemy does not expect. The problem is that the enemy may not stupor at all from surprise, but simply defeat us in the process of rebuilding. Andrei himself from Chelyabinsk convincingly shows above that there was no time for reconstruction. In world military history, hundreds of cases where one commander managed to prepare for battle and beat the second, which did not have time. But there seems to be no reverse examples. In the Neva battle, Prince Alexander went to the Swedes in battle formation, and the Swedes sunbathed near the tents. Did Birger really help that he knew the combat formation of the Russians, and Alexander never knew his combat formation? Rozhdestvensky decided alone, secretly from everyone, to lock himself in the cabin, to turn over the entire three thousand-year world military experience. Did he know that in all the battles of the past not a single clever commander risked delaying the preparation for battle? If you knew why you didn’t ask yourself, why? If my plan is so ingenious, why did Alexander the Great, Frederick the Great, Nelson and Ushakov not think of this before? Are they all dumber than me? Then he had to share his doubts with the headquarters. Someone would suggest. Play a game. Semenov, as a connoisseur of the Japanese fleet, put in command of the Japanese. Himself for the Russians. Filipovsky for an intermediary. Let, as an experienced navigator say, when which ship will find whom in typical visibility conditions for the Tsushima Strait. And they look at the time spent on rebuilding.

    I must say that the 2nd TOE was still lucky that Togo did not catch her at the moment when she was marching. If Rozhdestvensky, maneuvering a column of four ships, shot down a squadron in a heap, which would have happened when two columns were rebuilt, eight ships, moreover, with transports and destroyers between them. Rozhestvensky’s nonsense did not work 100%. Only 40 percent worked, and then it was worth the lost ship.

    2. Not only was the plan a priori stupid, but Rozhdestvensky also linked it with the lack of Japanese intelligence on the horizon. Really, knowing the number of light cruisers in the Japanese fleet, it was so hard to guess that the Japanese would follow him continuously? If the success of the maneuver required its secrecy, then it was necessary either to ensure this secrecy by driving the scouts away, or to abandon the maneuver. Rozhdestvensky does not do this: barely a couple of minutes the scouts will hide, he begins some kind of intricate rebuilding, appeared - throws halfway. So, R.'s plan is initially unrealizable.
    1. +1
      23 May 2019 19: 06
      3. We have three versions of the reasons for building a squadron in two columns.

      and. The first version of the respected Andrei from Chelyabinsk. AiCh did not invent it himself, but took it from the testimony of Admiral Rozhdestvensky in court. Those. it’s right to call it, let’s say, the version of AiCh-Rozhdestvensky.
      b. The second version is the version of Demchinsky. Which, however, did not smash the gag, but retold the orders of the admiral, which he personally gave to Demchinsky on the bridge. Those. This is a version of Demchinsky-Christmas.
      at. The third version is related to floating mines, this is the version of Semenov-Rozhestvensky. Semenov could not invent the order of the admiral himself. His position obliged to record as accurately as possible. He boasted of the accuracy of his notebook entries.

      So, we have a situation where two subordinate officers, standing at the same time a meter from the commander of the squadron, interpreted his words in different ways, and both were fundamentally wrong. R. is not just in a confusion in his head, his level as a commander is so low that he is unable to clearly convey his orders to his subordinates. The squadron was deprived of control not at the beginning of the battle, but long before it began. Not because of any communication lines, but already on the commander-flag-officer line. The admiral gives one order, and the squadron does something else. (AiCh in another article gave another example: R. ordered the floating hospitals at night to stay six miles away, and they walked almost close to the squadron. Moreover, this did not surprise or disturb anyone. Most likely the instructions were drawn up in such a form that no one he didn’t know exactly what distance he had to maintain. ”R. himself, despite his hot temper, reacted philosophically to the failure to comply with his order, they say, it’s my job to crow, and then at least do not dawn.). Meanwhile, the orders of the commander should be clear, concise and never leave room for ambiguous interpretation. It was easy for him to shout in a peaceful atmosphere: "where, are you going to get a prostitute?", Everyone somehow out of habit guessed what was meant and what instructions to give to the "prostitute". But in battle, when the situation is atypical. And the commander himself closed his plans from his subordinates in his cabin, and no one else knows them.

      Already for this last paragraph 3, R. honestly earned about 20 years. Only some transcendent humanity of justice can cause surprise.
      1. 0
        2 June 2019 15: 42
        brilliantly written, thanks, this is the right end to the argument hi drinks

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