Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". About the quality of construction

72
In this article we will continue the discussion about some features of the weight load of the cruisers “Pearl” and “Emerald”.

Why do we need an analysis of the weights of almost the same type of ships of domestic and imported construction, which were the "Novik" and "Emerald"? The fact is that a quick look at history The construction of the cruisers of the Nevsky Plant shows a very disappointing picture of the quality of domestic shipbuilding. Here are the Germans - are going to build a high-speed cruiser in the 3 000 t, and then - r-time! - and we were able to build it in the displacement of the entire 2 721 t. And then we wanted to build a cruiser according to the German drawings, almost the same, only a couple of guns were added, and we also allowed the speed to be reduced by one node. But already in the project, the mass of this cruiser went beyond the 3 100 t, and in fact, the Emerald was put to the test in the 3 330 t displacement, that is, with an additional 230 t overload! As a result, the weight of the Emerald surpassed the "Novikovsky" by a colossal amount of 609 t, and if we recall that the cruiser of domestic construction has not yet developed the contract speed, the apocalyptic picture of the failure of domestic shipbuilding in comparison with the German one develops.



But is it?

Unfortunately, the “Emerald” weight report on the 3 330 t. Is not available in the sources available to the author, and the available comparison of the Novik and Emerald weights is made for some design state of the cruiser, and, as can be seen below, the project not yet final. However, the ship’s displacement has already reached 3 177 “long” tons (rounded 1 is such a ton = 1016 kg).

Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". About the quality of construction


So, as mentioned earlier, the author will try to decompose the excess of the scales of the Emerald over the Novik into 2 components. It is known that domestic cruisers were built according to an improved project, in which an attempt was made to get rid of a number of shortcomings of the Novik and representatives of the Marine Ministry in some cases quite consciously went to the "advantage" - it is obvious that such an increase in displacement cannot be blamed domestic production culture. Having understood this, we can understand how much of the above difference in 609 tons between ships should be attributed to the customer's initiatives, and how much for the worst quality of construction and / or weight discipline of the Nevsky Plant.

Alas, there was an error in the previous material: in the section on artillery and mine weapons, it was stated that Emerald under this article had savings of 24 tons. In fact, this is not true, since such savings, apparently, took shape after the mine vehicles and mines were removed from the ship, and the artillery weapons still remained equal to Novik. However, subsequently, a 3 mine vehicle was returned to the cruiser and two 120-mm guns were additionally installed. Let's try to calculate the weight of the specified "supplement"

Considering the fact that the Novik 381-mm mine devices were 5, it turns out that on average one such device with ammunition weighed 4,8 t, respectively, the weight of the same 3 devices for Izumrud 14,4 t. Two deck installations 120 -mm / xnumx guns arr. 45 were each weighed at least 1892 tons each, total 7,5 tons. In addition, 15 shots were assigned to each gun, each of which weighed 200 kg. Thus, the mass of only the guns themselves and the ammunition for them, without additional racks, gazebos for shells, etc. amounted to 36 t, and taking into account the mine weapons - 29,4 t. or 43,8 "long" tons. Consequently, in the final version, the total weight of the Emerald cruiser under the articles Artillery and Mine Weapons and Projectiles, Charges was at least 43,11 tons, which is 171,11 tons higher than those of Novik (19,11 tons). And this advantage, of course, can in no way be attributed to a construction overload due to the fault of the manufacturing plant.

Chassis



He had a very interesting story. The fact is that on the tests of “Novik” Russian representatives were confused by the weakness of the hull of a German-built ship: the trembling of certain parts of the hull and the large cuts in the residential deck above the engine rooms caused particular concerns. The cruiser, nevertheless, was accepted into the treasury, that is, a similar over-lightening of the structure was still considered acceptable. However, Russian sailors and engineers did not want to receive ships with equally weak hull structures in the future, so it was decided to reinforce the Pearl and Emerald hulls.

We will not list in detail all the changes that cruisers underwent: increasing the thickness of the stringers, installing Carlings, and so on. We only note that, based on the results of the innovations, the longitudinal strength of the Emerald hull and Pearl cases has increased (calculated) by approximately 7% of what Novik had. The price for this was an additional approximately 55 tons of steel, spent on all types of reinforcements.

A similar situation exists with linoleum on the upper deck. This decision was considered acceptable for Novik. But linoleum when slipping water on it became slippery, which made it extremely difficult to move around the deck in fresh weather and artillery firing, moreover, it quickly turned into rags. Therefore, linoleum on the upper deck was rightly considered to be “a huge inconvenience” and on the Pearls and Emerald, it was abandoned in favor of the classic for warships flooring teak boards 44,45 mm thick (1 and inch). It was a completely correct and wise decision, but it cost XTNUMX tons of extra weight. Thus, the total weight of improvements, which the Naval Ministry quite deliberately went to, was 24 tons.

And that's what happens. Shihau designed the cruiser with a normal displacement of 3 000 t, and provided a hull for it, which in fact weighed 1 269 t, or 42,3% of normal displacement. Nevsky Zavod was going to build a 3 130 T cruiser with a displacement, but then increased it to 3 177 T. Unfortunately, it is not known where the weight was added, but even if we assume that the hull weight remained unchanged, it turns out that for the ship in 3 130 t the body should weigh 1 406 t. or 44,9%. But we are already talking about an improved, reinforced hull: if we exclude the associated 79 t mass increase, that is, if the hull is built in the same way as Novik, the cruiser would have received 1 327 t hull weight (1 406 t minus 79 t) or 42,39% of normal displacement. In other words, the difference between the actual masses of the Novik and Emerald hulls in relation to their planned displacement is hundredths of a percent! It can be assumed that if Emerald were built by Shihau, then the weight of its hull would be 1 324 t, that is, 42,3% of 3 130 t planned normal displacement.

In other words, looking at the comparison table of the weight lists of Novik and Emerald, we see that the body of the latter is heavier on the 137. But if we take into account the increase in mass as a result of conscious decisions of the leadership of the Marine Ministry (79 t), and we take into account that the Emerald was designed by a larger than Novik ship, which naturally requires a more massive hull, the result will be quite different . By introducing the appropriate adjustments, we understand that the difference in weight of the Novik and Emerald hulls, which could still be attributed to the worst quality of domestic construction, does not exceed some three tons! But this, incidentally, is not only about the hull, but also about the armor protection of the cruiser and a number of equipment and “practical things”, whose masses were assigned to the article “The hull with devices”.

In fact, there is no difference between the mass of the Novik and Emerald hulls in the table above in general — the fact is that, in addition to reinforcing the Pearls and Izumrud hulls, they also received an additional superstructure, which the Novik did not have one, namely, the command post, located on the front bridge, on top of the battlefield. Probably, this “prelux” cutting room covers the three-ton deviation we have calculated.

From the foregoing it follows that all 137 tonnes. The differences indicated in the weights comparison table relate either to important improvements of the cruiser, or caused by a large displacement of the Emerald in comparison with the Novik, but by no means a low production culture at the Nevsky Plant.

Mast and communications



As you know, the "wireless telegraph" installed on Novik was extremely unsuccessful in its design and even in the most wonderful conditions could not provide communications at a distance of more than 15-17 nautical miles (up to 32 km). In addition, the only mast of the German-built cruiser made it difficult to place the antenna and prevented the use of the cruiser as a "rehearsal vessel", which, generally speaking, was considered one of the most important tasks of the 2nd-rank armored cruisers in the Russian Imperial navy. In addition, the sources usually state that a single mast did not allow raising multifaceted signals - it is unclear how true this is, but in any case it can be argued that, due to the frank weakness of the radio station and the mast, Novik lost much of its ability to transmit information to other ships, which is completely unacceptable for the reconnaissance cruiser.

Well, "Pearls" and "Emerald", apparently, were completely devoid of these shortcomings. At the end of May 1904, F.K. Avelan ordered to install on the cruiser of the Nevsky Plant "German long-range wireless wiring apparatus," and, apparently, this was done. In addition, domestic cruisers received additional fok- and mizzen-mast, thus becoming three-masted ships. In spite of the fact that the mizzen-mast was “dry”, that is, there were no rivers, the ships obviously did not have problems either with the rehearsal of others' signals, or with raising their multi-humid ones, as well as with placing the antennas of the wireless telegraph. Interestingly, this decision had almost no effect on the ship’s displacement: the two Emerald masts, 21,3 and 18,3 m high (rounded, 70 and 65 feet), along with yards and rigging had a total weight of 1,44 tons. Such is the size of the petty economy of the Schihau company, which refused to install an additional spar on the Novik: German shipbuilders went for a significant deterioration in the ship’s operational qualities for one and a half tons!

The “emerald” under the article “Masts, boats, davits” had, in comparison with “Novikom,” the advantage in 6 of “long” tons, from which, as we see, 1,41 of such tons gave additional masts. As for the reasons for the remaining excess, it is insignificant and, apparently, consisted in various designs of boats and boats used on the Novik and Emerald. However, apparently, the metal boats "Novik" were slightly better installed on the "Emerald". So we can not consider the advantage in 4,59 t justified, and attribute it to the worst production culture in comparison with the German one.

Crew

The crews of Emerald and Pearl were 343 people for each cruiser, of which 14 were officers, including 2 headquarters officer, 8 chief officers, 3 mechanical engineer and 1 doctor. The number of officers coincides with the number of Novik officers we calculated, but the German-built cruiser had a slightly smaller crew: the figure in 328 people is considered classic, according to some other data it may be 323 or 330 people. Obviously, a slightly larger number is justified by at least the presence of two additional guns with a caliber of 120-mm, whose calculations clearly outnumber the calculations of two mined 381-mm vehicles, in which Novik had an advantage. Thus, there is no reason to believe that the crews of Russian-built cruisers were inflated with respect to the Novik.

Thus, we can say that the crew size of the Emerald surpassed that of the Novik by 4-6%. At the same time, the weight in the article “Team, baggage, provisions, water” is almost 18% higher in Izumrud. But, of course, such an "overload" can in no way be reproached by the Nevsky Plant. Rather, it should be said that at the Zhemchug and Emerald the indicated weights were determined more realistically, while Shikhau, being afraid of achieving the contract speed, saved on what it could. We have no reason to put 18 t overload on this article in reproach domestic shipbuilders.

Other articles

As we said in the previous article, the overload of Emerald in 133 t of feedwater for boilers is obviously either the design features of the Yarrow boilers, but most likely the fact that the management of Shihau was able to convince a large part of the reserves such water from normal to full displacement. It is possible, however, that both of these factors played a role. Be that as it may, in no case is there any reason to record this overload in the “sins” of the Nevsky Plant.

As for the article “Main mechanisms and boilers”, the mass of which at the Emerald exceeds Novik’s by as much as 210 tons, this is obviously partly the “fault” of the Yarrow boilers, which by design were simpler and more convenient, but at the same time, it is heavier than the Schihau boilers used at Novik. And besides, a “re-grading” is possible, when part of Novika’s boiler equipment was found in the article “Ventilation, steam line, dynamo”, where Emerald somehow miraculously turned out to have 24 tons of savings (despite the greater number of boilers!) . Thus, it makes sense to combine both of these articles and consider the preponderance of the power plant and other Emerald mechanisms on 186 t (210 - 24 t) as a result of the use of a domestic boiler system, Yarrow, on the cruiser. Again, the decision to use the Yarrow boilers did not arise because the Nevsky Plant was unable to produce Schultz-Tornikroft boilers, an upgraded version of which was installed at Novik, but by decision of the Marine Ministry, which experts found the Yarrow type to be the most suitable for Pearls. and "Emerald".

Of course, it may be that if the Yarrow boilers were made in Germany, they would have been somewhat easier than the Nevsky Plant did. But is this true, and if so, how much easier would German-made boilers be - one can only guess. Therefore, for the time being we will leave 186 t. Within the limits of the "reasonable" overload of the cruisers "Pearl" and "Emerald".

Summing up our calculations. Let's take the normal displacement of the Novik and add to it those weights, which the Naval Department went consciously increasing, expecting to achieve certain benefits by increasing the displacement. Summing up the above figures, we get the total weight of such improvements in 494,5 "long" tons. Accordingly, if the Nevsky Plant worked with the same weight discipline as the shipyard "Shikhau", then the "Emerald" would have to have a normal displacement in 3 215,5 t.

But, as we know, on displacement, the normal displacement of the Emerald was 3 330 t. Accordingly, the construction overload due to the fault of the Nevsky Plant was about 114,5 tons. The result, of course, is not the most pleasant, but not critical: remember that the Boyar, built at the Danish shipyard Burmeister og Vain, was overloaded by about the same - 100 t. As for Pearl, then with it Alas, everything is unclear. V.V. Khromov claims that the normal displacement of this cruiser was 3 250 t, but A.A. Alliluev and M.A. Bogdanov - that 3 380 t.

Of course, our calculation may have shifted somewhat in favor of Emerald due to the fact that the advantage over machines and equipment in 186 T. the author entirely attributed to the design features of the Yarrow boilers, but even if this is not the case, the overall picture of the Emerald overload testifies that these boilers are unlikely to be heavier than their counterparts, made in England or Germany more than with 20-30 tons, which, again, is not too critical. And in any case, there can be no talk of any "600-ton" overloads - as we can see, the difference in artillery weapons, other types of boilers, etc. led to the fact that "Pearls" and "Emerald" were obliged to become much heavier than "Novik."

Now we will try to consider the quality of the work of the Nevsky Plant on the other hand.

Acceptance to the treasury


Pearls in Kronstadt


Like many other ships, both before and after them, the Pearl and the Emerald were accepted by the fleet according to the results of the acceptance tests. As a matter of fact, it was the results of official sea trials that created the cruisers of the Nevsky Plant with a stable reputation of unsuccessful ships among the history lovers of our time. And all because the maximum speed reached on them was 23,04 knots. for Pearls and all 22,5 ties. for Emerald. In other words, the driving performance of the ships turned out to be very far from even the contractual 24 units, and the 25,08 units developed by Novik could only be dreamed of. And yet with this still tests are constantly accompanied by one or other damage!

Nevertheless, anyone who takes the trouble to read carefully any monograph dedicated to these cruisers will see that the results achieved by the tests are extremely far from the maximum speed that Pearl and Emerald could actually develop. The fact is that not a single cruiser under test has developed its full power. Both of them, like Novik, had steam engines designed for power 17 000 hp, but Pearl, having developed 23,04 knots, had power only about 15 000 hp, and Emerald V.V. Khromov 10 746 hp, according to A.A. Alliluyeva and MA Bogdanov - 13 500 hp According to the author, the data given by A.A. Alliluyeva and M.A. Bogdanova, since the calculation through the admiralty coefficient shows: in the case of displacement 3 330 t and power 13500 hp the cruiser developed the 22,5 knots, then with the 17 000 hp he could develop 24,3 ties. At the same time, if Emerald had managed to develop 22,5 ties in the same displacement with only 10 746 horsepower, then with 17 000 horsepower. he would give 26,2 bonds.! Obviously, the last is the ultimate fantasy.

And why, in fact, the official tests did not bring the power plants of cruisers to the maximum possible? The answer is very simple - wartime. Tests of both cruisers were conducted with violations of established procedures.

The fact is that sea trials of combat ships of those years were progressive. The level of technology that existed at that time did not allow ideally assembling such complex aggregates as large steam engines, and, in fact, boilers. Therefore, usually, before trying to give full speed, the ship was tested with less power of mechanisms, and increased it only after they were convinced that its power plant successfully copes with the previous one. Violation of the order of progressive tests could lead to extremely unpleasant consequences. Recall that the Germans ignored this and tried to disperse the Novik to the 24 nodes at the very first tests. And what did it lead to? The tests were frustrated, as 7 from 1901 trial exits into the sea from May to September ended with large machine breakdowns and screws. In other words, the power plant of the German construction could not withstand such “abuse” and received serious damage, which then had to be removed for a long time.

And what was done with "Pearl" and "Emerald"?

After testing the machines at moorings (when the machines are working and the cruiser remains at the factory wall), the “Pearls” were allowed to go on their own to Kronstadt. Then, at the two-hour factory tests, the revolutions were brought to 100 per minute, which, of course, was very far from full speed - at the final tests, when the cruiser showed 23,04 ties. his cars gave 155 (airborne) and 164 (central) rpm. After that, the sea trials were interrupted, although the cruiser went to sea twice: for the first time to eliminate the deviation, and the second - to sample artillery installations.

And after that, the tests for the full stroke, which ended in failure, immediately followed. Then - the second, final tests, which ... were not completed - after the power of the 15 000 hp was reached. and the cruiser developed 23,04 bonds. An accident has occurred. The gasket struck the bottom flange gasket on the right-hand medium-pressure cylinder.

Thus, we see that the Pearls did not undergo any progressive tests, because prior to the full speed tests, it had only three exits to the sea at low speed. If we take, for example, the factory tests of the Bayan cruiser, then before making an attempt to reach the contractual 21-knot course, he had preliminary 8-hour tests, during which he held an average of 19,25 knots. Novik’s attempt to achieve 24 knots “offhand” led only to serious damage to its power plant, while Pearls got off with relatively minor and easily fixable malfunctions.

As a matter of fact, the fact that the cruiser’s cars were taken to the treasury the very next day after the tests, on which the Pearl demonstrated the 23,04 knot, does not mean that it was the speed limit for it. It only says that the commission, seeing such a result with power in 15 000 hp, perfectly understood that when 17 reached 000 hp the cruiser will not only reach, but even surpass the contractual 24 node. And, due to wartime, members of the commission decided not to force the ship to confirm the obvious, but to use the remaining time before exiting with the 2 Pacific Squadron to eliminate any and all faults and deficiencies that could be identified, as well as other tests. Let's not forget that, the squadron went on a campaign 2 October 1904, that is, after just 2,5 weeks after the test "Pearls". At the same time, although the cruiser’s vehicles were taken to the 14 September 1904 coffers, the decision to accept the ship by the fleet was only made by 5 in January 1905 (taken retroactively on the day the squadron exited).

With “Emerald” it turned out even more “fun” - the cruiser, as well as the “Pearl”, completed mooring tests at the plant wall, and then independently transferred to Kronstadt. After that, September 19 "Emerald" came out on its only preliminary tests, which ended unsuccessfully, while the ship's machines gave 120 rpm. And then, in fact, the official trials took place, in which the cruiser with 13 500 hp developed 22,5 bonds, after which cars and boilers were taken to the treasury.

Obviously, the same considerations played a role as in the case of “Pearl” - the list of shortcomings on “Emerald” was more, and he no longer had time to go to the Far East together with the squadron. He had to be sent later, as part of a special “catching-up squad”, while the volume of outstanding work was so great that the cruiser had to put into operation some of its systems already during the march. Obviously, as in the case of the “Pearl”, the selection committee preferred to devote maximum attention to checking other cruiser mechanisms, rather than driving it to the measured mile in order to make sure that the cruisers reached its 24 nodes. Just because no one had any doubts about achieving this speed.

All of the above indicates that neither the "Pearl" nor the "Emerald" should in any way be considered unsuccessful construction ships. Yes, the weight discipline of the Nevsky Plant turned out to be lower than that of the Schihau company, but quite within reasonable limits, and there is no doubt that if the cruisers had completed a full cycle of tests and fine tuning of peacetime, they would have shown, and even surpassed, im under the contract 24 node. That they would not have reached the speed of the "Novik" could not be blamed on domestic shipbuilders, if only because eliminating the shortcomings of this cruiser led to an increase in the displacement of "Pearls" and "Emerald" by almost 500 tons. Moreover, that fact that the cruisers built by the Nevsky Plant were able to withstand accelerated tests in general without serious damage to the power plant, indicates a very high build quality of their cars and boilers. It is interesting, by the way, that members of the selection committee noted separately the “thoroughness of assembling machines” on the “Pearls”.

Thus, we conclude that the only truly significant drawback of the construction of the cruisers "Pearl" and "Emerald" was that it simply did not have time to finish, and both ships set off on a long hike and battle, without going through a full cycle of debugging mechanisms . But blaming the Nevsky Zavod is absolutely impossible.
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  1. +10
    April 6 2019 18: 18
    Thus, we conclude that the only truly significant drawback of the construction of the cruisers "Pearl" and "Emerald" was that it simply did not have time to finish, and both ships set off on a long hike and battle, without going through a full cycle of debugging mechanisms . But blaming the Nevsky Zavod is absolutely impossible.

    Strongly agree with you, dear colleague hi I spoke about this at one time when I compared the per-ton cost of RIF ships - the "stones" turned out to be quite at the level in terms of the quality of construction, and in terms of the price tag relative to "Novik" they look very good. Yet, despite all the reservations and problems, the private factories of the Russian Empire could and could build ships better than state enterprises.
    1. +6
      April 6 2019 21: 00
      Greetings, Artem!
      I am glad that our conclusions coincided :) hi
    2. +1
      April 7 2019 17: 25
      Let me add: if you wanted, and the private trader first of all wants additional profits and only then the quality
      1. +2
        April 7 2019 17: 49
        Quote: vladcub
        private traders first of all want additional profits

        That's right - profit, and again, and again profit. That is, new contracts. If you sculpt ships anyhow, you can lose new contracts. In civilized countries, private cryvodels quickly flew into the chimney smile In addition, private enterprises are much quicker to adapt to the requirements of the time, in contrast to state-owned enterprises, where any innovations meet with resistance.
  2. -7
    April 6 2019 20: 36
    The author amused - "the longitudinal strength of the" Izumrud "and" Zhemchug "hulls increased (calculated) by about 7% from that of" Novik "" - the author himself calculated? -I wonder how? -And why do you need to increase the longitudinal strength ?; "This is the size of the petty economy of the Shihau company, which refused to install an additional spar on the Novik: German shipbuilders went to a significant deterioration in the ship's performance for the sake of one and a half tons!" - that is, the Germans themselves decided not to install a second mast? it was?; and what about sea trials, in general, the circus-progressive tests decided not to carry out-like the acceptance committee decides what and how to carry out (for them the test program is not written) -to full speed-too-but okay and so it will come down-like Novik with that the same speed the same power, so you could not bathe and compare the nodes by 10.
    1. +12
      April 6 2019 21: 15
      Quote: Bone1
      "the longitudinal strength of the Izumrud and Zhemchug hulls has increased (calculated) by about 7% of that of Novik" - the author himself calculated? - I wonder how?

      Kostya, if you're interested, then study the relevant disciplines at your leisure, since there are textbooks on the net. Let me tell you a secret - the strength of the body is determined by calculation and has a very specific numerical measurement. You can read more here - https://flot.com/publications/books/shelf/chainikov/29.htm - this is not a tutorial, of course, but, so to speak, a brief educational program for teapots.
      But, of course, I did not consider it myself, all this is in the sources.
      Quote: Bone1
      i.e the Germans themselves decided not to install the second mast? - or was it so in the project?

      You do not know that the Germans did the Novik project? :))) So maybe, than to portray the wise in life here, it is better to teach a little bit of materiel? :))) It was the Germans who forced the MTK to abandon the installation of additional masts, threatening that in otherwise, reaching the contract speed is not guaranteed :)
      Quote: Bone1
      and about the sea trials in general, the circus-progressive trials decided not to conduct-type the acceptance committee itself decides what and how to conduct

      "Like" yes. This is the beginning of the 20th century, and not its end + wartime, despite the fact that in wartime, by and large, test programs were not carried out in full. Not only with us - it was the same with the British and the Germans.
      1. +8
        April 6 2019 23: 10
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Not only with us - the British and Germans had the same thing.

        I confirm Yes
        During the war, the Germans' Neukrug measured mile, on which new ships were tested, turned out to be unsafe and sea trials began to be carried out on a new measured mile in the area from Altenbruch raid to the islands of Helgoland and Borkum, which was shallow than pre-war. The same battleships of the "Koenig" class showed only a passport speed of 21 knots with a power 1,3-1,5 times higher than the nominal.
        In reality, according to the testimony of eyewitnesses in the same battle in Jutland (at great depths in the open sea), "Koenigs" were given up to 24 knots.
  3. +7
    April 6 2019 21: 13
    Article plus!
    Despite undertesting the speed of the "pebbles", they could well keep the speed not lower than the "Boyar" speed, that is, at the level of 22.5 knots, which quite allowed them to fulfill the duties assigned to them by the "Program .." according to which they were built.
    This speed was higher than almost all the cruisers of the Far Eastern enemy and was at the level of "dogs". But, as we can see, they could well hold one more knot, which generally made them the masters of the situation on the high seas. "Emerald" showed this in its "tactical retreat" smile
    I will repeat myself for miles - I personally consider the RIF 2nd rank cruisers built according to the "Program for the needs of the Far East" are quite adequate for service with the squadron Yes
    Best regards, hi
    1. +4
      April 6 2019 22: 02
      Good evening, Andrey, and thanks again. hi As for this my namesake, do not waste time on him, he is, to put it mildly, a "peculiar" man. wink
  4. -7
    April 7 2019 00: 32
    From all of the above, it follows that all the xxx differences indicated in the weight comparison table are attributable either to the cruiser’s important improvements, or to the Emerald’s large displacement compared to the Novik’s, but by no means low production culture at the Nevsky Plant.


    And it’s a laugh and a sin to read :) The author spent two articles on chewing on the obvious fact of a significant increase in the displacement of Pearls and Emerald compared to Novik. He saw a difference in weight of almost 600 tons, but he could not clearly explain the reasons. Moreover, it turns out that the difference in the weight of the cruisers, allegedly made according to one drawing, is suddenly on the contrary, caused by a large displacement and not at all a low production culture laughing

    The author's attempts to push the problem to replace boilers are, to put it mildly, unconvincing. Yarrow boilers weigh 20-25% more, they were installed by 16 instead of 12 Schultz-Thornycroft boilers. But with a total weight of boilers of 250-300 tons, this will give a difference of 50-70 tons, and in no way 600 or even 343 tons, as our friend Andrey counted. If we also recall the sad picture with the machine capacity (15 and 13.5 thousand tons according to one of the sources, and even 11.8 according to another), then there will be even more questions about the "culture of production".

    Well, in general, a lot of mysticism and confusion really developed around these two cruisers. For example, there were messages that they increased the width of the project to 12.8 meters instead of 12.2 Novik. If you look at Wikipedia, you can be amazed to learn that Pearl supposedly only has 2 cars and two propellers .. Instead of the required three :) In general, the topic of cruisers "like Pearls" is interesting. Unfortunately, Andrey failed to reveal it convincingly.
    1. +6
      April 7 2019 02: 37
      Quote: Saxahorse
      In general, the topic of "Pearl-class" cruisers is interesting. Unfortunately, Andrey failed to reveal it convincingly.

      Here you are convincing and open it, and we honor it.
    2. PPD
      -3
      April 7 2019 10: 58
      The culture of production in this case has absolutely nothing to do with it.
      When ordering ships abroad, foreigners tried to squeeze the speed to the fullest.
      Well, think about it, what kind of posing the question-2 we won’t put the mast !!! For speed.
      The same Falcons, the same story. Or Bayan was breathing, how "fun" it must have been to shoot at that moment.
      We ordered the speed, that's it, get it. And you did not order operating comfort.
      It’s not for them to fight.
    3. +2
      April 7 2019 17: 36
      Saxahrose, apparently, the owners of the Nevsky Plant 100 years ago made sure that Andrei fooled his head? Or do you have more accurate sources
  5. +4
    April 7 2019 01: 33
    The mere fact that the Emerald was able to get away from the heap of enemy cruisers clearly says that its speed was sufficient to carry out combat missions.
    1. +1
      April 7 2019 02: 35
      Quote: Sahalinets
      The mere fact that the Emerald was able to get away from the heap of enemy cruisers clearly says that its speed was sufficient to carry out combat missions.

      The 6th Combat Squadron (Third Squadron), which included the "old men" Suma, Izumi, Chiyoda and Akitsushima, who, due to their age, had a moderate speed, chased after "Emerald".
      The only Japanese light cruiser remaining in the ranks who could compete with the Emerald is Chitose, who was at the time of the Emerald's dash about eight miles southeast. Consequently, "Emerald, starting, had a very serious head start in front of this cruiser, so the Japanese, seeing that the distance could not be reduced, stopped the pursuit after a few hours.
      1. 0
        April 7 2019 02: 48
        Well, you yourself confirm - the distance could not be reduced. And note - this is a ship that has NEVER sailed at full capacity. If his cars were properly tested, it would probably be even better.
  6. +2
    April 7 2019 05: 59
    Considering the fact that there were 381 on the Novik 5-mm mine vehicles, it turns out that on average one such vehicle with ammunition weighed 4,8 tons, respectively, the 3 weight of the same vehicles for Emerald was 14,4 tons.

    Dear Andrew,
    Sorry, a little clarification. One 381-mm torpedo tube weighed 3,333 t., And the torpedo, depending on the sample, 426 and 430 t. If we assume that two torpedoes were used per torpedo tube, then the maximum 4,193 t went out. We multiply by three, 12,579 t goes out .

    two masts "Izumrud" had a total weight of only 1,44 tons. Such is the size of the petty economy of the Shihau company, which refused to install an additional spar on the Novik: German shipbuilders went for a significant deterioration in the ship's performance for the sake of one and a half tons!

    After the war on the Pearl we did the same wink


    Thank you for the photo of "Pearl" with the censorship stamp, I have never seen this before.
    1. +2
      April 7 2019 14: 49
      After the war on the Pearl we did the same

      And not just him))
      1. +1
        April 7 2019 16: 53
        Quote: anzar
        not only on him))

        No. By the way, on the "Admiral Makarov", which is shown in the photo, they subsequently installed two masts, as on his sister ships "Bayan" II and "Pallada" II, and not vice versa, as on the "Pearl" when they removed two "extra" masts and left one, like its predecessor "Novik" hi
    2. 0
      April 7 2019 23: 33
      Greetings, dear colleague!
      Quote: Comrade
      Sorry, a little clarification. One 381-mm torpedo tube weighed 3,333 t., And the torpedo, depending on the sample, 426 and 430 t. If we assume that two torpedoes were used per torpedo tube, then the maximum 4,193 t went out. We multiply by three, 12,579 t goes out .

      Nevertheless, the layout on the scales of emerald is exactly the same as I brought it, and it is also in long tons. Probably there were still some weights that were unaccounted for in the actual torpedo tube and torpedoes — some sort of sub-racks, powder charges, etc.
      Quote: Comrade
      After the war on the Pearl we did the same

      Yes, but after the war no one was going to use him as a cruiser scout for service during the squadron.
      Quote: Comrade
      Thank you for the photo of "Pearl" with the censorship stamp, I have never seen this before.

      You're welcome!
      Quote: Comrade
      The 6th Combat Detachment (Third Squadron), which included the "oldies" Suma, Izumi, Chiyoda and Akitsushima, chased after "Emerald",

      We will come to this :)))
  7. +7
    April 7 2019 11: 25
    Perhaps for a change I oppose :)))
    Overloading is, of course, important, but ... there were also "little things" about which the ship's doctor of the "Izumrud" Vladimir Semenovich Kravchenko told in paints.
    29 September. The cold hit again. Snowing. When will the steam heating be finally ready?

    I am writing, sitting sideways: the foot is again bandaged in the bast. Damned ladders! Needless to say, I'm a good warrior.

    30 September. Oh joy! It is audible how hisses, whistles, clicks on pipes steam heating. A few minutes later, the cabins take the form of a bath, full of steam - pipe connections are passed. Burnt paint emits a terrible stench. Now, not only from above, but from all sides large drops are falling from the sweating iron. The messengers ran in with mops, the drivers with screwdrivers - where it is necessary to tighten, where to squeeze the nut. [20]

    Perhaps it was better without heating, huh? It's hard to please our brother


    Deficiencies affect decisively at every step. In the command room and in the audit cabin, a wave knocked out several windows along with the frames: the three officer cabins are full of water, which is constantly carried out by buckets.

    But this - well, - in a hurry, did not finish it ... but how to understand this?
    The eternally faulty Emerald can’t move away from here before two weeks. All desalination plants give salt water, no matter how many they are repaired. Good Nevsky plant with his or inability or negligence. Take, for example, such trifles: our portholes almost do not open, because iron bolts are not inserted into their lock, but iron bolts that quickly rust - it is extremely difficult to screw them. You call the driver: after complex manipulations, pouring skiomas, you manage to swing and open up to half; when in a few minutes it will be necessary to close the porthole, it is no longer possible - the whole procedure must be repeated again, and the wave in the meantime does not wait, know yourself, give in and give in and fill the cabin. The deck, of course, continues to flow. Not one, but three drops per minute falls on the chest; three minutes per minute, [41] how many per night - I solve the arithmetic problem during the hours of insomnia. For some reason, it’s not possible to incarnate. And how many such annoying little things at every turn; they wouldn’t be so angry if our main, essential, thing was in due order, but, alas, we can’t boast of anything.

    The copper bolts were not found, damn it! And this is not such a trifle, not to mention the fact that, quite possibly, the same "economy" and "creativity" is shown in other places.
    In general, the Nevsky Plant had problems with the production culture and very serious ones!
    1. +3
      April 7 2019 15: 38
      Quote: Senior Sailor
      In general, the Nevsky Plant had problems with the production culture and very serious ones!

      The New Admiralty also had a so-so production culture, which only the Oleg refrigerators cost, from which they had to throw out the spoiled corned beef. As an eyewitness wrote, the cruiser was perfect, and on the deck there were live cattle for provisions, like on a sailing ship.
      1. +1
        April 7 2019 16: 09
        This is undoubtedly true, but, in fairness, refrigerators are unlikely to do at the shipyard. here rather a question for counterparties.
        Although, when the "Aurora" was in the Philippines, it suddenly turned out that the X-ray machine was working on her board, but the stationary one in the American coastal hospital was not.
        That is everything is not so clear (TM)))
        1. +1
          April 7 2019 18: 26
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          but, in fairness, refrigerators are unlikely to do at the shipyard. here rather a question for counterparties.

          Not a dispute for the sake of justice laughing
          Steam heating "Izumrud" too, I suppose, not at the shipyard riveted wink
          1. +1
            April 7 2019 20: 04
            but the iron bolts on the portholes are exactly their work :) fellow
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +1
              April 7 2019 22: 35
              Quote: Senior Sailor
              iron bolts on portholes - as if their handiwork

              Definitely. Although in the estimateI guess bronze bolts were laid. And where did anyone watching the construction of the cruiser look?
    2. 0
      April 7 2019 23: 35
      That's right, dear senior sailor! But here it’s such a thing - all this is largely trivial, which were quite amenable to refinement, stay cruiser in the Baltic. And so yes, I will describe them necessarily, in the next article
  8. +5
    April 7 2019 12: 15
    But what about "To be continued?" :)) There is not enough article about the combat path of ships.
    1. +1
      April 7 2019 13: 58
      Yes, and about the quality of construction would not hurt (I'm not talking about weight parameters).
      1. +1
        April 7 2019 16: 57
        Quote: VohaAhov
        There is not enough article about the military way of ships.

        Quote: Andy
        Yes, and about the quality of construction would not hurt

        Everything will be for you, but later Yes wink There are restrictions on the volume of the article, because the author gives the material in portions request Patience, patience and patience again! About "Varyag" the cycle consisted, EMNIP, of 21 articles ...
        1. +2
          April 7 2019 17: 52
          So before, Andrei always wrote "to be continued", but now he didn't and we got worried
      2. +1
        April 7 2019 17: 46
        Two hands for: 2 parts a little Andrew just dislikes teased
        1. +1
          April 7 2019 23: 41
          Use will be the chef :))) The following article was posted on moderation, the week will be hi
  9. -3
    April 7 2019 20: 12
    Quote: vladcub
    Saxahrose, apparently, the owners of the Nevsky Plant 100 years ago made sure that Andrei fooled his head? Or do you have more accurate sources

    I don’t understand what is there to argue about. All that Andrei wrote in two articles can be summarized in one paragraph.

    The actual displacement of Novik is 2720 tons, Emerald - 3330 tons. The difference is 610 tons.
    Constructive overload:
    Yarrow boilers - +65 tons.
    Strength plus 7% - +55 tons.
    Plus 2 cannons with ammunition - +30 tons.
    Two masts will be empty - +3 tons.
    Total we have: +153 tons.

    The remaining 457 tons (17% of the displacement!) This is the very "culture of production" of the Nevsky plant. For example, only one detail, due to the poor quality of the metal, the tubes in the boilers had to be made thicker in comparison with the English Yarrow boilers. On 16 boilers, this gave an extra 17 tons. The cars are a little overweight, they still could not show the design power! 11800 hp mentioned by the author. this is only 70% of the design capacity. It was not for nothing that a legend was born that one motor was stolen from under the hood of "stones"! In fact, it is, 5500 hp is missing, this is the power of one of Novik's steam engines.

    I don’t understand how Andrei can then conclude that there are no complaints against private factories in Russia and specifically to the Nevsky Plant in terms of production quality.
    1. 0
      April 7 2019 22: 05
      In disputes, truth is born. It's sad to read how they built for the enemy. Vaughn above the respected-Senior Sailor and Comrade gave examples of the "quality" of construction.
      It remains to be astonished at the durability of the crews.
      Flints.
    2. 0
      April 7 2019 22: 30
      Quote: Saxahorse
      due to the poor quality of the metal, the tubes in the boilers had to be made thicker in comparison with the English boilers Yarrow. On 16 boilers, this gave an extra 17 tons.
      I don’t understand how Andrei can then conclude that there are no claims to the Nevsky Plant for the quality of production.

      Man, I’ll tell you a secret - at the Nevsky Shipyard not produced metal for pipes.
      1. 0
        April 7 2019 23: 58
        Quote: Comrade
        Man, I’ll tell you a secret - at the Nevsky Shipyard they did not produce metal for pipes.

        Therefore, I mentioned other plants. The tubes were made at the Izhora plant. And so slowly that the native, Russian kit received only one pebble. For the second, reordered in Sweden.
        1. 0
          April 8 2019 01: 30
          Quote: Saxahorse
          The tubes were made at the Izhora plant.

          You just have to connect the production culture at the Nevsky Shipyard with the speed of pipe production at the Izhora Plant and the low quality of the metal from which the pipes were made.
    3. +2
      April 7 2019 23: 40
      Quote: Saxahorse
      The remaining 457 tons (17% of the displacement!) This is the very "production culture"

      Yeah, especially the preponderance of 135 t water for boilers. And teak boards instead of linoleum is yes, it’s just what the arbitrariness of the Nevsky Plant is :))) And ... in general, who wants, can read the article, who does not want - please
      Quote: Saxahorse
      The machines are not too heavy, they could not even show the power of the design!

      A link to the document is a thread that this power is the limit for cruisers give? :)
      1. -3
        April 8 2019 00: 52
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Yeah, especially the preponderance of 135 tons of water for boilers.

        I have no idea where and why you poured 135 tons of water laughing

        Tornicroft and Yarrow boilers are structurally similar and belong to the same type, triangular thin-tube. With the same power, they use the same amount of water.

        The teak deck is good, but at the same time the volume of the coal pits was reduced by 35 tons at the "pebbles". So here it is, on the contrary there should be a gain of the type.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        A link to the document is a thread that this power is the limit for cruisers give? :)

        Worse, there is not a single document confirming that the Emerald was able to even come close to the design capacity. It was paid only in 1906 after the death already. The Ministry of Finance was firmly convinced that they had cheated him with the "stones". Moreover, the Emerald cost in the end 3 rubles. 549 kopecks, while “Novik” - 848 40 2 rubles.
        1. +3
          April 8 2019 07: 31
          Quote: Saxahorse
          I have no idea where and why you poured 135 tons of water

          Yes, I know that without a clue. Only I did not fill it, but you, having written 135 t of boiler water into the construction overload of the Nevsky Plant cruisers :)))
          Quote: Saxahorse
          The teak deck is good, but at the same time the volume of the coal pits was reduced by 35 tons at the "pebbles". So here it is, on the contrary there should be a gain of the type.

          I don’t even want to ask how the FULL capacity of the coal pits affects the cruiser’s normal displacement laughing Still do not answer.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Worse, there is not a single document confirming that the Emerald was able to at least approach the design capacity.

          Aghas, for the reasons stated by me above.
          Quote: Saxahorse
          He was paid only in 1906 year after the death already.

          M-dya? :)))
          In the fall of 1905, when the Nevsky Zavod turned to the Maritime Ministry for the final calculation of the cruisers, the GUKiS commission carefully analyzed the reasons for the delays and established that they were not the fault of the plant. At the same time, due to these delays, the deadline for "submission to the test of the Pearl" should be considered November 1, 1904, and the "Izumrud" -
          1 July 1905 of the year, but in reality, thanks to emergency work, cruisers were put to the test much earlier than the deadlines

          Poor Saxahorse, you again got it all mixed up :))) paid for the cruisers in 1905, but before 1907 r (and not to 1906 r), there was a question about the extra reward for the emergencyness of the building, on which the Nevsky Plant insisted laughing
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Especially since the Emerald cost as a result of 3 549 848 rub. 40 cop., While "Novik" - in 2 000 870 rub.

          I, of course, am glad that you found the strength to familiarize yourself with at least V.V. Khromov in the marine collection, but I hasten to disappoint - he was wrong :))) "Novik" cost 3 391 314 rubles
          1. -1
            April 8 2019 12: 21
            eka you sternly ... you need to love the readers ... bully
            1. +2
              April 8 2019 18: 06
              Quote: ser56
              eka you sternly ... you need to love the readers ...

              And I love them very much, but what to do if some of them prefer me to love them in different positions of the Kama Sutras?
              1. +1
                April 8 2019 20: 23
                Andrew, you cruel boy but
                1. +1
                  April 9 2019 01: 01
                  Quote: vladcub
                  Andrew, you cruel boy but

                  As Comrade Einstein rightly noted:
                  “Only two things are endless - the Universe and human stupidity, although I’m not sure about the Universe”

                  And when someone in the discussion of my articles struggles, by personal example trying to confirm the truth of the words of the great physicist, he must remember that my stocks of beads (again, according to Einstein!), Alas, are not infinite.
          2. -3
            April 9 2019 00: 12
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Only now it was not me who filled it, but you, having recorded 135 tons of boiler water in the construction overload of the cruisers of the Nevsky Plant :)))

            Dear friend! Pour what you want and where you want, just learn to understand the articles of weight load. I simply and corny compare the weight of two ships in trials. And you seem to be not only friends with the cardinal points, but also not friends with trivial scales. Do you have not only geography, but also three in physics? laughing

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I, of course, am glad that you found the strength to familiarize yourself with at least V.V. Khromov in the marine collection, but I hasten to disappoint - he was wrong :))) "Novik" cost 3 391 314 rubles

            I am glad that you came to life a little and returned to your favorite pastime - selective picking in the sources. True readers had to be warned in advance. lol

            "read here, not read here, but here the fish was wrapped" (c) laughing
            1. +3
              April 9 2019 00: 45
              Quote: Saxahorse
              just learn to understand the articles of weight load.

              Said a man who has absolutely no idea what it is.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              I simply and trivially compare the weight of two ships on trial.

              Having no idea what was included in this weight for Emerald and that for Novik. But declare the difference minus the weights that are clear to you - the result of the poor performance of the Nevsky Plant :)))) Bravo, what else can I say :)))
              In general, saxahorses, you manage to accuse me of not understanding weight load articles, and immediately demonstrate that you don’t even understand why you need to understand them :))) you choke them into one normal displacement - and so it will come down :)))
              Quote: Saxahorse
              I am glad that you have come to life a bit and returned to your favorite occupation - selective picking in the sources

              And again Saksahors accuses me of what he himself is guilty of. Because the figure of 2 million given by Khromov is not confirmed by either Skvortsov, the author of a monograph on Boyarin, or Emelin, the author of a monograph on Novik, or documents of those years, such as the "Ship's List", or the All-Subject Report on the Maritime Department "(the last one can be viewed here http://istmat.info/node/24955)
              But the saxaors does not want to remember anything of this, he tears out of the vast amount of information about Novik’s cost one thing that contradicts everything else, declares it correct and accuses me of being selective. laughing
              Circus, and only
              1. -1
                April 9 2019 23: 22
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                and immediately demonstrate that you don’t even understand why you need to understand them :))) You choked them into one normal displacement - and it will do :)))

                You sat in the puddle so thoroughly that you no longer know how to get out. laughing

                I'm not lazy, and for the hundredth time I will remind you of what Pearl and Emerald did according to Novik's drawings. Novik was a reference ship for "pebbles". And when evaluating the quality of copying the standard, it is really not necessary to disassemble all articles of the weight load.

                Your conclusion about the absence of claims against the Nevsky Plant is absurd and not justified. Claims directly to the surface. Huge overload (17%!) And power shortage (30%!). You could not explain the reasons for either the first or second. You could not even comment on the reasons for the significant discrepancies in the description of these ships in different sources and strangeness in the tables of different authors.

                Well, why was it necessary to lay out the article in this form?
    4. +2
      April 8 2019 01: 30
      The actual displacement of Novik is 2720 tons, Emerald - 3330 tons. The difference is 610 tons.

      Do you know the difference between normal and full displacement? So, it seems to me that 2720 tons of displacement "Novik" is a normal displacement, and 3380 tons of "Izumrud" is full. Actually, the difference in the weight of the boiler water transparently hints at this ...
      By the way, as far as I remember, the total displacement of the Novik is 3180 tons, and not 3000, as it was indicated in the specification ...
      1. 0
        April 9 2019 00: 04
        Quote: Ognjen26
        Do you know the difference between normal and full displacement?

        In both cases, indicated (2720 and 3330) actual displacement in the tests. And for testing, as you should be well aware, it is customary to display the ship in a normal displacement. :)

        The normal design displacement for Emerald was 3100 tons. As for Novik. But the actual for Novik turned out to be 2720 and for the Emerald made according to his drawings - 3330 tons. We are here discussing the "culture of production" if that ..
        1. +1
          April 9 2019 00: 18
          Saxahorse wrote:
          "And for testing, as you must be well aware, it is customary to display a ship in normal displacement. :)"


          From what year? And in which country?
          In the Russian Empire, at one time it was customary to conduct tests with a displacement as close as possible to full. Are you sure that "Emerald" did not fall into the category of those who passed such tests?
          And even if this displacement is normal, then the difference in load can be explained by different ideas about what should be included in a normal displacement.

          Saxahorse wrote:
          "The normal design displacement for the Emerald was considered to be 3100 tons. As for Novik. But the actual displacement for Novik turned out to be 2720 and for the Emerald made according to his drawings, it was 3330 tons. We are here discussing the" culture of production "if that .."


          Do not share a link to such data? In fact, such an underload is: a) evidence of a gross miscalculation by the Shikhau shipyard engineers, who made gross errors in calculating the weights, which worsened the stability of the ship; b) a reason to abandon the built ship due to lack of stability in accordance with the terms of the contract.
          So either the tests were carried out according to the methods of the German fleet (or even the shipyard itself), and certainly not in the actual normal displacement by Russian standards; or the displacement data you provided is an advertisement for the Shihau shipyard.

          By the way, there is a third explanation for the difference of 600 tons - the broadening of the "pebbles" hull by two feet in order to improve stability still took place ...
          1. -2
            April 9 2019 00: 27
            What data do you ask for a link? Actually, Andrey's previous cycle was dedicated to Novik. he did it mainly according to Emelin's book "The II-rank cruiser Novik". And this cycle is mainly according to Khromov "Cruisers of the Pearl type". All the data that I recalled here again are in these books.
            1. 0
              April 9 2019 00: 35
              A reference to the fact that 3380 tons is the normal displacement of the "Emerald" or "Pearl".
            2. +2
              April 9 2019 00: 55
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Actually, Andrey's previous cycle was dedicated to Novik. he did it mainly according to Emelin's book "The II-rank cruiser Novik"

              wassat fool
              From 12 articles on Novik Emelin was used as a basis for as many as three articles :))))
          2. +1
            April 9 2019 00: 53
            Quote: Ognjen26
            Are you sure that "Emerald" did not fall into the category of those who passed such tests?

            Tikhon, Emerald really went out in a normal displacement. But the problem is, what exactly was considered the normal displacement of the Germans and that - we have, it seems two big differences.
            then how? The normal displacement is equal to the standard plus half of the fuel, oil and nutrient water, due to the total displacement. So, for some reason, Emerald was entered into the normal displacement of 196 t of boiler water — what is this, a normal supply of boiler water for him under 400 was something like? :) That is, almost as much as coal? And for Novik, only 63 is in normal, that is, is 126 in full? It does not happen, and this suggests that the normal displacement for Emerald and Novik was considered differently. Saksaors, even if he understands, will still pretend not to understand, opposing him for the sake of opposing
            1. +1
              April 9 2019 09: 59
              Dear Andrew!
              You wrote that normal displacement equal to standard plus half of the water, fuel and oil reserves due to full displacement, but forgot that the term "standard displacement" appeared after World War I - either after the Washington or after the London agreements. Accordingly, your definition is inapplicable neither to the Novik, nor to the Emerald, nor to any other ship of the early 20th century.
              By the way, I found at Khromov: "the plant rolled low-magnetic steel of greater thickness than required ..." - one of the reasons for the overload, not counting the greater weight of the hull connections.
              1. 0
                April 9 2019 12: 46
                Quote: Ognjen26
                but they forgot that the term "standard displacement" appeared after the First World War

                Of course, but the definition provided by me only explains the essence of the normal displacement, and does not give the literal formulation of those times. In other words, the normal displacement is the weight of a fully equipped ship with a crew and half reserves of fuel, oil and nutrient water. That in those years, the concept of normal displacement was extensible, explains even the fact that 360 tons of coal, which were part of the normal displacement of Novik and Emerald, were not half from 509-535 tons of full reserve coal :)))
  10. +1
    April 8 2019 18: 04
    As for speed and quality, in my opinion the very fact of the Emerald breaking through the Japanese cruisers at full speed, and this, given the many months of crossing over three oceans, indicates the high quality of the construction of this boat.
    1. 0
      April 8 2019 20: 28
      Maybe not the highest quality, all the same they saved on copper bolts and a bunch of little things, but at least not worse than "Novik"
  11. +2
    April 9 2019 02: 09
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Let's get to that :)

    This is good, dear colleague. Those interested will be able to find out how it really was. Otherwise, Aliluyev and Bogdanov in their "Cruisers" Pearl "and" Izumrud "" will be jokingly plugged into the belt of Kostenko and Novikov-Priboi combined for the unreliability of the stated.

    In order not to be unfounded, I will give a couple of "pearls" from the text.
    1) For some reason, the authors included the battleship "Yashima" into the composition of the Fifth Combat Squadron (Third Squadron) (I am writing the battleship, since there were no other ships with that name in the Japanese fleet at that time), which actually sank in the Encounter Rock area for year before the Battle of Tsushima.


    2) In pursuit of "Pearl", these alternatives sent the cruiser "Kasagi", which in our reality, having received a shell in a coal pit, retired to Aburadani Bay for repairs. The work was completed the next day at 11:00, after which the cruiser set off for the open sea.
    Since "Pearl" tore away from the Japanese in the interval between 10:15 - 10:34, "Kasagi" could not take part in the chase, as Aliluyev and Bogdanov write about it.
    Along the way, Chitose did not fire on the Pearl, this is a fiction.
    Examples can be continued, unfortunately ..

    Thus, the mistakes made by the authors in elementary questions sharply undermine the credibility of the rest of the "murzilka", including the technical one. You never know what they wrote there, we have no opportunity to check it.
    1. 0
      April 9 2019 09: 00
      Quote: Comrade
      Since the "Pearl" tore from the Japanese between 10:15 - 10:34,

      Excuse me ... Maybe all the same "Emerald"?
      1. +1
        April 9 2019 13: 58
        Of course, Emerald, you're right.
    2. +1
      April 9 2019 09: 36
      [/ quote] the authors for some reason included the battleship "Yashima" [quote]


      Probably beguiled with the advice note "Yayayama".

      "Kassagi" - perhaps so it seemed to the "Emerald", it is necessary to look at the logbook.
      1. 0
        April 9 2019 16: 10
        "Confused", "it seemed" ..
        Colleague, this is not serious.
        Such texts have a place on the Alternative History website. If they sat down to write, it was necessary to get acquainted with the basics.
        1. -1
          April 9 2019 17: 39
          [/ quote] Confused "," it seemed "..
          Colleague, this is not serious. [Quote]


          Said the man who had just confused "Emerald" with "Pearl". winked
          And to the old woman, there is a slammer (s).
          1. +1
            April 9 2019 18: 38
            Yura, and you are a quibbler
          2. 0
            April 9 2019 18: 58
            A bedtime comment is one thing, and a book is another, isn't it?
            When I prepare an article for posting on the site, I read and reread it many times over several days.
            And secondly, there they have a shaft and other errors or errors, you read and you do not believe your eyes.
            Like a shkolota wrote.
  12. +3
    April 9 2019 04: 16
    Quote: Rurikovich
    Despite undertesting the speed of the "pebbles", they could well keep the speed at 22.5 knots.
    This speed was higher than almost all the cruisers of the Far Eastern enemy and was at the level of "dogs". But, as we can see, they could well hold one more knot, which generally made them the masters of the situation on the high seas. "Emerald" showed this in its "tactical retreat"

    Dear Andrey Rurikovich,
    Having rummaged in the "Top Secret History" today, I found data that allow us to estimate the speed of "Chitose" during the pursuit of the "Pearl". There is the start and end time of the chase, as well as the distance covered. When your esteemed namesake has posted the relevant part, I will present what I found for everyone to see. Together it will be possible to try to estimate at what speed the "Pearl" left the Japanese.
    An interesting discussion may ensue there :-)
    1. +1
      April 9 2019 20: 45
      Quote: Comrade
      Together it will be possible to try to estimate at what speed the "Pearl" left the Japanese.
      An interesting discussion may ensue there :-)

      good
      Totally with you, Valentine, I agree Yes It’s better to wait for the right material, otherwise I used to run ahead of the engine, which is kind of not very buzzing with respect to the author’s work.
      In general, the estimation of speed in a particular episode is a very interesting thing. fellow It happens that the real speed differs from the subjective perception of the crew, because such things as you correctly said should be analyzed from several sources in order to make a picture as close to reality
      hi
      1. +1
        April 10 2019 02: 47
        Dear Andrew,

        Quote: Rurikovich
        It’s better to wait for the right material, otherwise I used to run ahead of the engine, which is kind of not very buzzing with respect to the author’s work.

        It is impossible not to agree with this, therefore, without going into details, I will limit myself to only two words:
        speed "Pearl" (found accurate first-hand figure) during the retreat practically did not differ from the speed shown by "Chitose" during the chase (data from "The Top Secret History of the Russo-Japanese War at Sea"), and our cruiser left thanks to a happy coincidence.
  13. 0
    April 9 2019 09: 50
    Quote: Jura 27
    Probably beguiled with the advice note "Yayayama".

    Quite possibly.
  14. +1
    April 10 2019 05: 44
    About the so-called "excess of weights" in comparison with "Novik".
    In addition to changes in the design, there was another circumstance, which the respected author did not mention.
    And it should. Since this circumstance influenced the construction of not only this series of cruisers, but also other foreign projects that they tried to repeat at domestic shipyards.
    The circumstance lies in the fact that in Russia the inch system of measurements was adopted, and in France, Germany, and in Denmark, the metric.
    It would seem that it’s okay, counted from the metric system to the inch, and everything is in order.
    But just to count a little, such an amusing discipline as technology comes into play.
    It is necessary not only to recalculate, but to select the thickness of the shipbuilding steel in accordance with the assortment rolled by the Russian factories. As Khromov writes in his monograph about the cruiser "Oleg", the dimensions were selected with an accuracy of 0,1 mm, which gave an increase in weight per square meter of 780 grams.
    Accordingly, even without the slightest change in design, when reproducing French, German Danish completed projects, an excess was obtained.
    It would seem that there shouldn’t be any problems with American projects, both of them have inch systems.
    But, here it is not only a range of steels. Kramp's technologies themselves were very different from ours. And the measurement system, although inch, but for example differs from the English inch.
    For example, the thickness of the armor of American battleships, the Americans and the British indicated different.
    The difference is minimal, but the devil ... he is in the details ...