About the tactical advantage of speed in a naval battle, or Two knots for "crossing T"

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In the discussion of articles devoted to the Russo-Japanese War, an interesting discussion repeatedly arose dedicated to the maneuver called “crossing T”, or “wand over T”. As is known, the execution of this maneuver, which allows to concentrate the onboard fire of the entire squadron on the enemy's head or terminal ships, was the highest tactical victory of the naval commander in naval combat.





In other words, it was believed that with a somewhat comparable level of artillery preparation of the opposing squadrons, the holding of a “crossing T” guaranteed the winning of a naval battle.

About the tactical advantage of speed in a naval battle, or Two knots for "crossing T"


Of course, the admirals tried to exhibit “crossing T” to their “opponents” in peacetime, during training maneuvers. And here, according to the author, the teachings of the British are very revealing fleetheld in 1901-1903 For three consecutive years, Royal Navy squadrons converged in “battle”, and all three times one of the squadrons had a slight superiority in speed - within 2 knots. At the same time, all three times the slow-moving squadron was losing with a bang, as she was given the “crossing T”. Of course, one can assume that the matter was in the commanders, but this is extremely doubtful. So, the admiral, who commanded the “high-speed” squadron in 1901, achieved victory for her, but in 1903, being appointed to lead the “slow-moving”, he lost maneuvers near the Azores.

From the foregoing, of course, the conclusions suggest themselves that winning around the 2 node gave a tremendous tactical advantage to the squadron that possessed it. With some correct actions by the commander of the fleet squadron, the slower one had no chance of avoiding the “crossing T”.

However, many lovers of military stories This thesis seemed wrong, and here's why. The fact is that there is a certain position of the squadron, at which the “two-node” speed gain does not allow the more high-speed squadron to set “crossing T”. Suppose two fighting squadrons are "right fight", that is, fighting in the wake columns, heading in one direction. Naturally, the more high-speed squadron will gradually overtake the enemy’s convoy, and its commander will have a desire, turning against the enemy’s course, to set him “crossing T”. Let's show it on a simple scheme.



Suppose a high-speed squadron of the “Reds” is fighting with a slow-moving squadron of the “Blue”. The admiral of the "blue" sees that the "red" turn in order to put him "crossing T". What can he oppose to his opponent? Elementary - to repeat his own maneuver. In other words, when the "red" will go to cut the "blue", the latter turn in the same direction. If the "red", seeing that the enemy turns away from them, again screwed him to intercept, then you will need to turn away from them again. In this case, the squadron will go as if in two circles, one of which is inside the other. And the more high-speed "red" will have to go on the outer circle, and the less high-speed "blue" - on the inside.

But from the school course of geometry we know that the circumference (perimeter) of the inner circle will be substantially less than the outer one. Accordingly, the advantage of the speed of the “red” squadron will be wasted on the fact that during the same period of time it will have to travel a greater distance than the “blue” - of course, under such conditions no “crossing T” will be possible.

And so, on the basis of this “maneuver of the inner circle”, an assumption has arisen that in reality the speed advantage on 15-20% is completely insignificant, and can easily be parried by correct maneuvering of a slow-moving squadron.

So what is this - 2 node advantages of the pre-dreadnought squadrons of the era of the Russian-Japanese war? Pledge of victory, or purely theoretical, but nothing significant in practice advantage? Let's try to figure it out.

Baseline data, or such complex simple maneuvers




For any simulation, source data is needed, which we will now denote. The author will consider the possibilities of using “crossing T” on the example of maneuvering 2 squadrons, each of which is composed of 12 armored ships. Suppose also that all ships of both squadrons have the same length in 120 m. Each, and the intervals between them are standard, and make up the 2 cable (in the same cable - 185,2 m). Consequently, the length of the column of each squadron from the flagship stem to the secondary battleship of the closing battleship will be about 30 cables. The speed of the “red squadron” we will install 15 knots: “blue” will have less nodes on 2, that is 13 knots. And now let's stop for a short while, because there is one, extremely important “but!”, Which should be specially mentioned.

Any squadron maneuver can begin only after the completion of the previous one.

Why is that? Let us explain by the example of the simplest seemingly maneuver - turning the squadron sequentially on 8 points, or on 90 degrees. It would seem, well, what is so complicated about this - the lead ship, having raised the corresponding signal, turns to 90 hail. Behind him, the remaining ships of the column repeat the maneuver ... Elementary action, available not to the commander of the ship, but to the midshipman of the 1 course! Well, maybe not the midshipman, but the midshipman will certainly do it, right?

Alas, absolutely not.

There is such a thing as the diameter of the tactical circulation or the distance along the normal between the lines of reverse courses after turning the ship to the first 180 degrees.


J - circulating ship; AU - the initial course of the ship, DE - diameter tactical circulation


So, for each ship of the squadron, the next with the same speed, the diameter of the circulation is its own, individual, and it depends on many things - it is the ratio of length to width, the rudder area, its angle of transfer, the shape of the hull, as well as external factors such as excitement , current and wind. In theory, for ships of the same type, the diameter of the circulation should be almost the same, but in practice this does not always happen. Unfortunately, this indicator is usually considered unimportant and rarely listed in reference books, so there is not as much data as we would like.

It is known that the higher the speed of the ship, the smaller the diameter of the circulation. For example, the American battleship "Iowa" 2,712 cab. on starboard at 10-nodal speed and 1,923 cab. on the left side at 14-nodal speed. But here, in the same type of French battleships of the type “Devastason”, it turned out the opposite: “Devastason” with 9,5-bonds described a circle with radius 725 m, while “Curbet” at speed 8. had only 600 m. It is clear that at a speed of 9,5 knots. the circulation of “Kurbe” would be even more different from “Devastasion”.

Or take, for example, the Japanese battleships Yashima and Fuji. Ships are considered to be of the same type, but at the same time they had differences in the underwater part. The fact is that these ships were built at different enterprises, and the designer Philip Watts, adapting the blueprints to the capabilities of the Armstrong plant, cut off the deadwood from the future Yashima and also installed a steering wheel. As a result of these actions, Yassima received an extremely small circulation diameter for ships of its class, while at Fuji it was closer to the average values ​​of the British battleships.




In addition to the hull design, the speed of the rudder transfer, which could be different from different drives, also influenced the circulation - for example, on the Slava battleship, you could put the steering wheel straight from the 18 with the steam drive and 28 with electric. Of great importance was the windage of the surface part - in the same "Glory" the diameter of the circulation depending on the strength of the wind (from 1 to 6 points) changed from 3,25 to 4,05 of cables.

Perhaps we should say that the circulation diameters of the battleships of that period averaged from 2 to 3,8 cables, but in some cases they could be smaller or larger. By the way, it's funny that the diameter of the circulation could differ even in one ship, depending on which board it turns: in the armored cruiser “Men” (1895), at the speed of 12 nodes it was 2,35 cab. on starboard and 2,21 cab. on the left.

In addition to the difference in the diameter of the circulation, there is also a difference in speed: ships on circulation may lose, according to various data, up to 30-35% speed, but, again, it depends on their individual characteristics.

And so, by virtue of the foregoing, even the usual turn of the squadron on 90 hail. becomes a kind of circus act. Ships go to the wake, but it is not so easy to catch the point at which the flagship will begin to unfold, and yet it is necessary to make a correction for the difference in the diameter of the circulations, which is not constant and varies for many reasons. It is not surprising, therefore, that when the ship going into the formation completes the turn (that is, in our example, changes course to 90 hail), it will find that it no longer goes to the wake of the matelot ahead of it, but to the right or left, with the prescribed interval between the ships, of course, broken. Accordingly, the ship needs time for alignment in the ranks - that is, to return to the wake and level the set interval. That is, even two ships will experience some difficulties with rebuilding, and the maneuver of an entire squadron can be complicated by what can be called a “dead phone”. The fact is that the ship following the flagship makes a turn with an error due to its circulation diameter and so on, but the battleship following it cannot orient itself to the “reference” course of the flagship, but follows the “wrong” trajectory after the second one. Thus, the error-deviation from the flagship rate for ships at the end of the system will gradually accumulate, and may increase significantly.

That is why the squadrons need joint maneuvering, the ships, their components, must be floated. The ability to maneuver in those days did not exist by itself, but in conjunction with specific ships. That is, the battleship, who knew how to keep the line in one squadron, being transferred to another, will be constantly beaten out at first. And not at all because his commander does not know how to maneuver, but because he needs time to get used to the peculiarities of maneuvering the ships of his new squadron, to adapt to their circulation diameters, etc. A little distracted from the topic, we note that it was this that became a problem when 3-s Pacific squadron joined the 2-th. Rear Admiral N.I. Nebogatov could train his crews as much as he wanted and hone maneuvering in his squadron to shine, but after rejoining the squadron he still needed to sail with the ships of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky.

All those interested in the history of steam fleets know the extremely important role played by the formation in battle. And you need to understand that anyone, even the simplest maneuver, essentially destroyed the established structure of warships, so they needed some time to restore it. That is why starting a new maneuver, without completing the previous one, was extremely dangerous — in this way, the squadron’s combat order could be completely upset. And that is why the admirals of those years began the next maneuver only at the end of the previous one. Well, when they did not do this ... I recall that at the 1901 maneuvers, the relatively low-speed British squadron under the command of Rear Admiral Noel, being attacked by a more fast-moving adversary, did not have time to reorganize into battle order before she was set to "crossing T" . As follows from the Russian descriptions of this episode, Noel tried to somehow remedy the situation, ordering to increase the course. But the result was not even a new maneuver, but a simple increase in speed in conditions when the ships did not complete the rebuilding, the fact that the structure of the British battleships simply collapsed. I recall that we are talking about British ships, whose sailors were traditionally strong in maneuvering.

For our example, for both squadrons we take the size of the diameter of the 2,5 cable circulation, the turning time for 90 degrees - 1 minutes and 180 degrees. - 2 minutes.



This will be a known simplification, since a slower squadron will have a larger circulation diameter and will perform it more slowly than a high-speed one. We will make another simplification - we will not calculate the length of the arc exactly every time, and the circulation time - in cases when it is closer to 90 hail, we will accept the circulation time in a minute, when closer to 180 hail. - for 2 minutes. This is necessary in order not to complicate the calculations beyond measure.

And now - "crossing T"


As we said above, the “Maneuver of the inner circle” guaranteed to protect the slower squadron from “crossing T”. However, supporters of this maneuver overlook one extremely important nuance: in order for this maneuver to work, you must somehow "convince" the commander of the more high-speed squadron to line up in a parallel column of the "low-speed" squadron - and from this position try to put the "slow-moving" "Crossing T".

In other words, the “inner circle” can really help the low-speed squadron, but only if the high-speed squadron, instead of without further ado, set the “crossing T” to its low-speed opponent right away, for some reason it will tie the right one fighting in the wake of the column, and only after that will try to set "crossing T". But why the high-speed squadron do this?

Absolutely no need. Thus, our tactical task for the parties comes down to the following: the main task of low-speed "blue" is to force our opponent to enter the "right fight" in parallel columns. If they succeeded - we believe that the “blue” achieved victory, because in this case the high-speed squadron will really lose the opportunity to set “crossing T”. Accordingly, the task of the high-speed “red” squadron will be to set up “crossing T” and avoid entering the “right fight”.

Of course, the more high-speed squadron will have a definite advantage in taking the most advantageous position for itself. But she herself does not need it, because in order to put the squadron of the "blue" in an impossible situation, it suffices to make only one, rather simple maneuver.

For this “red” it was enough to get close to the enemy squadron by about 40 cable, and then turn it so as to cross the course of the “blue” angles 45 deg. left or right.



After that, the “blue”, according to the author, will not have a single chance to avoid “crossing T”.

Why is that? Let's look at all the options for admiral "blue", which he can take in response to such maneuvering "red". In essence, all of his possible maneuvers are reduced to performing turns or turns sequentially, or “all at once”. We first analyze the turns turns sequentially.

Take for example the situation when the squadrons go on opposite courses, and then the red ones turn to 4 Rumba (45 degrees) to the left, as shown in the diagram above. "Blue", of course, free to choose any direction from their existing 360 degrees.

What happens if an admiral of the “blue” dares to go straight without changing the course? Suppose (here and in all other variants) that the squadron convergence on 40 cable occurred in 12.00. Then the “reds” take a turn, which takes away from them a minute of time, so their flagship in 12.01 rests on a new course. After about 9 and a half minutes, the squadron of the “blue” will receive the classic “crossing T” - its flagship will be hit by dagger fire from the 9 wake column of the “red” ships, at a distance from 11 to 16,5 cables. At first glance, the flagship “Reds” are also in danger, and this is actually the case, but still the 9 of the enemy ships closest to it can shoot at it from a distance from 16,5 to 28,5 cables, but still its position and not so close dangerous as the flagship "blue". The squadron position is shown in Figure 1 in the following diagram.



At the same time, the "red" will complete a turn in 12.13, and by this time the distance from the flagship of the "red" to the enemy ship nearest to it will exceed 21 cables, while the blue flagship will be replaced by defeating 5-10 cables.

What's next? It is safe to say that with such a maneuver the “blue” head of their columns will be broken, and the “red ones” can simply turn “all at once” to 180 degrees, in order to continue their wand over T. But you can not do this, turning "all of a sudden" on a course parallel to the squadron of the "blue", and smashing them, retreating in the structure of the ledge - in this case, of course, "crossing T" will also take place.

So, to move the same course for the "blue" is meaningless. But maybe it is worth trying to cut across the "red"?



This does not help - here everything is decided by the very 2 node superiority in speed. In this case, the task is very simple, and really comes down to high school geometry. We have a rectangular isosceles triangle, in which the hypotenuse is the distance between the squadrons, and the legs are the courses of the squadrons after turning. Following these courses, the squadrons will converge at an angle 90 hail. If the “blue” and “red” turned at the same time, the “red” would still be ahead of the “blue” ones by about 1,5 minutes, that is, the “red” flagship would cross the “blue” course around the 3,8 cable in front of the stem. This is too little to talk about “crossing T”, there would be a dump, but the problem is that the “blue” will not be able to change the course at the same time as the “red”.

The admiral of the "blue" seeing that the red leader is turning somewhere, will have to wait until he lies down on a new course, determine this new course, decide on a counter-maneuver, give the command to execute, and yet to fulfill ... There will be more time lost on it - and these two terms in the sum will just lead to a delay, which will allow the “red” to put a “crossing T”, cutting the course of the “blue” ones into approximately 8-10 cables. And again - if the “blue” and “red” had equal speed, then this number would not have passed. Yes, the "red", taking advantage of the fact that the "blue" began to maneuver later, would have overtaken the latter, but only slightly, and instead of "crossing T" you will get a dump. But the combination of two factors - the slower speed of the "blue" ones and the fact that they are the second to start the maneuver - leads to the fact that the "crossing T" will be set.

But why in our tactical task "red" always maneuvering first? The answer is very simple - the "blue" can not afford this. Going to 13 nodes, they need almost 14 minutes to complete the maneuver, and “red” just 12. Thus, the admiral of the "red" will always have time to consider the maneuver of the "blue", and perform their own counter-maneuver, and both squadrons will finish their maneuvers almost simultaneously. That is, a more high-speed squadron, if given the right of the second move, will get just an enchanting advantage.

For example, if the "blue" first try to go to 45 hail. from the course of the “red” squadron, then the reds will immediately “cut” the course, and their speed will be just enough to set the classic “crossing T”



And the "blue" can not do anything, because by the time they complete the turn, the "crossing T" will already be set.

Well, okay, it’s impossible to go "red", but what else can you do? Maybe try to lie down on a course parallel to the red in order to go with them in one direction or to disperse countercourse? Well, let us consider every minute a situation in which the "blue" turn around and fall on a parallel course.



So, in 12.00, the distance between opponents of the 40 cable and the "red" starts turning. In 12.01, their flagship rests on a new course, shifting as a result of circulation by approximately 1,25 cable from the starting point of the turn, and the squadron of blue, following the previous course, passed almost 2,17 cable. Suppose that the "blue" have a fantastic reaction and begin to turn immediately after the red leader completed the turn, although this, of course, is unrealistic. But let's say.

At this moment (12.01) the distance between the pivot points of the squadron is a little more than 36 cable. In the subsequent 2 minutes, the “red” ones continue to perform the maneuver, that is, their flagship, describing a semicircle, returns to the point where it began to turn, but is now on 2 cable closer to the “red” (or further, if it turns to the right) . Thus, the "blue" begin to move on a new course with at least a two-minute delay relative to the "red". Since “red” requires the 12 mines to complete the maneuver since their flagship is launched, and the “blue” one is almost 14, the “red” ones complete the maneuver in 12.13, and the “blue” remains almost 4 minutes. It turns out that the "red" can start any maneuver, while the "blue" can begin to react only after 4 minutes, when the rebuilding is completed.



It should be noted that during the whole time of the “blue” maneuver, the “red” have a fire advantage. Considering that the battleship will start shooting, after it has fallen on the new course, the 12.03 will be able to "work" the 3 of the lead ships on 12's battleship, and only the blue flagship will respond to them. In the future, of course, the remaining ships will turn around and engage in battle, but by the time the “red” deployment is completed, they will have 8 ships fired, and the blue ones will only have XNUMX. That is, of course, at this stage there is no “crossing T” yet, but the beginning of the maneuver is unsuccessful for the “blue” ones.

And then the “reds” can turn to the left successively (Figure 1 in the diagram below) in order to set the “crossing T” for the end ships of the column.



But then they themselves will fall into an unpleasant position for some time, since their turned ships will interfere with the rest of the battlefield. It would be wiser to do a little more cunning, making the turn "all of a sudden", as shown in Figure 2. By the time the “blue ones” are finally rebuilt, the distance between the closest ships will not exceed the 20 cables, and soon the squadron of the “reds” will hit the sharp course angles of the “blue” so that the effectiveness of artillery fire will weaken on both sides. And after that, "cut the tail" column "blue" (Figure 2)

In this case, "blue" in any case, nothing remains but to leave, trying to break the distance from the red and hoping for a miracle. Theoretically, they could try to turn around "all at once", but in this position this maneuver does not give anything "blue".

Thus, we see that an attempt to lie on a parallel course and move in the same direction with the "red" ones does not save the "blue" from defeat. Well, what happens if the "blue" in the battle stitch try to go to the countercourse? Yes, all the same, the situation is almost a mirror. At first, the “red” and “blue” ones will really disperse on countercourses, but the rebuilding of the “red” ones will finish faster. As a result, they are exactly the same, turning “everything suddenly”, will be able to first get close to the “Blue” end ships, and then set them to “crossing T”.



What other options are possible for the "blue"? Run away from the "red" squadron? But such a maneuver of evasion, he performed at least a turn consistently, even if all of a sudden, still leads to the fact that at the end of the column "blue" will hang a squadron of "red" built by a ledge, which means "crossing T" is inevitable.

But maybe the “blue” should try to “play” on the same properties of the triangle, which in all the above examples play into the hand of “red”? If in response to the rotation of the “red” on 45 degrees, and to tighten in the same direction, but not on 45 degrees, but on all 90? In this case, the admiral of the "blue" will lead the squadron entrusted to him as if along the leg of a right triangle, while the "red" will follow his hypotenuse. In this case, the "red" will have to go significantly more distance than the "blue" and their superiority in speed will be neutralized.



All this is true, but the commander of the “Reds” has a quite elegant counter-maneuver.



Turning "all at once" and moving along the course of the "blue" will bring the formation of the ledge of the "red" to the head of their columns, and Carthage will be ... eghkm, "crossing T" will be delivered.

All other turns (yet they can go in any degree from 360) are a special case of one of the above maneuvers.

Conclusions


So, we have considered all the basic maneuvers of the “blue” ones, but in no case will they succeed. The advantage in the 2 node seems small for the era of the Pre-Susim armored fleets, but in reality it did provide those who had a decisive advantage for two main reasons.

First, it gave "the right of the first turn", that is, it passed the initiative to the high-speed squadron. At a distance of the 40-45 cable of a low-speed squadron, it would be extremely dangerous to start the maneuver first, since its high-speed adversary had the opportunity to immediately “punish” such an initiative by putting a “crossing T” or at least taking a position to display it.

The second reason followed from the first — since the slow-moving squadron could only respond to the actions of its high-speed “opponent”, it ended its counter-maneuver much later than the enemy. The backlog consisted of the loss of time to assess the enemy’s maneuver and more time to perform the maneuver than that required by the more rapid squadron. Thus, whatever the counter-maneuver the slow-moving squadron started, it completed it much later than the fleet finished its, which, again, gave the commander of the latter an indisputable advantage.

Two "Why?" and one observation


In conclusion, this article would like to mention a couple of nuances. The maneuver schemes presented by the author, which must be performed in “red” in order to perform the “crossing T”, are rather complicated. We are talking about turns "all of a sudden", after the execution of which the flagship is at the end of the system, and the terminal ship must lead a squadron, making further turns "all of a sudden" or turns sequentially. According to the author’s deep conviction, in real life, such complicated maneuvers were not required for placing the “crossing T”. Their need in our example is due solely to preferential assumptions for the “blue” in the accepted rules of our tactical game. As a matter of fact, all the above descriptions are not a “textbook for the admiral”, but rather a justification for the fact that placing a “crossing T” squadron, which has superiority in speed in the 2 node, is geometrically possible.

Why in the battle at Shantung X. Togo, having superiority even more than in the 2 node, did not put a “crossing T”?


"Mikasa"


The answer is very simple - excessive caution of the Japanese admiral. Still, in order to place a “crossing T”, it was necessary to energetically move closer to the enemy and maneuver at a relatively short distance from him, and X. Togo did not dare to do so in the first phase of the battle.

And finally, why in the interval between the world wars the British came to the conclusion that the superiority in speed on 10% does not give the squadron possessing it any tactical advantages, which was the reason for lowering the speed of battleships such as "King George V"? The answer is very simple - with the advent of the dreadnought era, the distances of artillery combat increased significantly, and convergence on the 40-50 cable with subsequent dashing maneuvers became impossible. Well, while maneuvering on 70 cables and above, the 10-percentage increase in speed really did not give any advantage.
244 comments
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  1. +3
    5 June 2019 12: 11
    10% speed increase really did not give any advantage

    but what about the right to choose whether to start a battle or not, is this not an advantage?
    There was a time when Fischer's fast "cats" really represented a huge pain in the ass, simply because no one could force a fight on them.
    1. +2
      5 June 2019 18: 59
      In real maneuvers of Togo in Tsushima, at a Russian speed of 13 knots, the head "Suvorov" was already ahead of the Japanese flagship by 14-47.
      1. +3
        5 June 2019 19: 00

        Image for comment above.
        1. +2
          5 June 2019 19: 03
          Time is in a red frame, at a speed of 13 Russian knots, the rest of the time is real. Russian exit at a speed of 13 knots at 2-05.
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. +6
            5 June 2019 20: 42
            An armored ship in the days of the RPE (normal, not Russian buckets with nuts), this is such a thing that has a main armored belt


            Russian battleships had many shortcomings, but it is not worth calling them "buckets with nuts".
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. 0
              6 June 2019 09: 27
              Quote: 27091965i
              it's not worth calling them "buckets of nuts"

              I agree, these are huge buckets with nuts)))
              but seriously, with outwardly adequate performance characteristics - protection and calibers, the problems of the ships were inside - from the engine room to the quality of the fuses and the storage of gunpowder.
        3. +1
          5 June 2019 20: 33
          Jura, plus, but the question is: did all the ships of the Russian squadron go at the same speed?
          1. +1
            5 June 2019 21: 32
            I’ll plus Yura too and try to answer: the maximum speed of the Russian battleships was very different, however, the given 9 knots kept all those that failed without problems
      2. +3
        6 June 2019 04: 46
        Quote: Jura 27
        In real maneuvers of Togo in Tsushima, at a Russian speed of 13 knots, the head Suvorov was already ahead of the Japanese flagship by 14-47

        But how to make Togo, watching how the Russian squadron increased its course to thirteen knots, limit itself to fifteen knots?
        1. +4
          6 June 2019 06: 19
          [/ quote] And how to get Togo watching how the Russian squadron increased its course to thirteen knots to limit itself to fifteen knots? [quote]

          Even 16 knots will not help him, then he can only be equal with the Russian flagship. And this is not to mention the fact that Russians can turn right to a greater extent. Those. even three-node superiority is clearly not enough (in Togo's maneuvers).
        2. -13
          6 June 2019 18: 35
          But how to make Togo, watching how the Russian squadron increased its course to thirteen knots, limit itself to fifteen knots?

          Could he give more?
      3. +5
        6 June 2019 06: 30
        Quote: Jura 27
        In real maneuvers of Togo in Tsushima, at a Russian speed of 13 knots, the head "Suvorov" was already ahead of the Japanese flagship by 14-47.

        Yeah. But bad luck - at the speed of Russian in 13 nodes, the maneuvers of Togo would be very different.
        One of the classic mistakes of the alternator is to give additional opportunities to one side and expect the opponent to behave in exactly the same way as in reality
        1. +3
          6 June 2019 06: 40
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Quote: Jura 27
          In real maneuvers of Togo in Tsushima, at a Russian speed of 13 knots, the head "Suvorov" was already ahead of the Japanese flagship by 14-47.

          Yeah. But bad luck - at the speed of Russian in 13 nodes, the maneuvers of Togo would be very different.
          One of the classic mistakes of the alternator is to give additional opportunities to one side and expect the opponent to behave in exactly the same way as in reality

          After the yapas have made a "loop", they have no other options (except for worse).
          1. +2
            6 June 2019 14: 28
            Quote: Jura 27
            After the yapas have made a "loop", they have no other options

            The Japanese would not make any loop if the Russians walked on 13 nodes. There, all maneuvering would be different
            1. +2
              6 June 2019 17: 56
              Well, I know that Togo was a huddle, and he knew for sure that the glutanous Ryuman admiral would not increase the squadron speed over 9 nodes. But how do you know this secret?
              1. 0
                7 June 2019 08: 26
                Quote: Jura 27
                Well, I know that Togo was a huddle, and he knew for sure that the glutanous Ryuman admiral would not increase the squadron speed over 9 nodes. But how do you know this secret?

                He did not know anything, but in making this or that maneuver he proceeded from the real speed of the Russians. And if it were higher, already on the 4 node, then the original Japanese idea (after the main forces saw each other) to go to the left shell of the Russians and attack the left column would undergo correction. The same would happen if the Russians increased their speed after the loop of Togo.
                In general, no need to juggle - it’s about how Togo would change its maneuver AFTER the Russians developed 13 bonds, you don’t need to have the gift of foresight
                1. +1
                  7 June 2019 16: 23
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Quote: Jura 27
                  Well, I know that Togo was a huddle, and he knew for sure that the glutanous Ryuman admiral would not increase the squadron speed over 9 nodes. But how do you know this secret?

                  He did not know anything, but in making this or that maneuver he proceeded from the real speed of the Russians. And if it were higher, already on the 4 node, then the original Japanese idea (after the main forces saw each other) to go to the left shell of the Russians and attack the left column would undergo correction. The same would happen if the Russians increased their speed after the loop of Togo.
                  In general, no need to juggle - it’s about how Togo would change its maneuver AFTER the Russians developed 13 bonds, you don’t need to have the gift of foresight

                  So, the Russians begin to increase the speed at 1-55 (Japanese time) and by 2-10 the first detachment goes 15 knots, the remaining 13 knots (course, as in real life). Now change the maneuvering of the Japanese squadron, after 2-10, to do a "T" crossing, or something good for them.
                  1. 0
                    22 June 2019 13: 33
                    13 and 15 knots for 2TE are very optimistic numbers. The minimum mark for milking the 1st detachment is 13.5 knots. According to the 2nd, it is known for certain that it was rebuilt at 11 before the battle.
                    1. 0
                      30 June 2019 07: 10
                      For a relatively short time, 15 and 13 knots, respectively, could well give.
  2. +7
    5 June 2019 12: 17
    Fisher's fast cats had an advantage in speed relative to most dreadnoughts - contemporaries at 7-8 knots. They could impose a battle and get out of it. Andrei, however, speaks of the difference of 2 knots that took place under Tsushima.
    Thanks so much for the article.
    1. +4
      5 June 2019 13: 36
      At Tsushima, the Japanese exceeded the speed of Zinovy's caravan by 6-7 knots (15-16 knots against 9 for the Baltic "Argonauts").
    2. +2
      5 June 2019 14: 13
      Even 2 knots gives an advantage: for example, the Falklands, I don't remember what kind of advantage the British had, but the point is the same: they, Inglozi, could keep a distance at which the German guns did not reach them. And according to Tsushima, there is a complete loss of initiative, if there was an attempt to attack the front line with the execution of the "turn all suddenly" maneuver at the beginning of the Japanese maneuver, taking into account the fact that it was CONSEQUENTIAL, then the second squadron had a small chance, but the chance: to the Japanese all the same, I would have had to complete my maneuver, there would have been a convergence of squadrons, possibly up to 2 cables, and at this distance Russian armor-piercing shells would have gained an advantage, the battle would have gone in the form of a dump, not the fact that it would be won, but would not have been lost like that ...
      1. +4
        5 June 2019 14: 27
        Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
        Even the 2 node provides an advantage: for example, Falkland, I don’t remember the British advantage there

        Nodes so 7 approximately :))))
        Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
        And according to Tsushima, there is a complete loss of initiative, if there was an attempt to attack the front line with the execution of the maneuver "turn all suddenly" at the beginning of the Japanese maneuver

        Completely unrealistic, and not necessary. Just moving forward created better conditions than running around all of a sudden, which all the more could not be performed on time - while they raised the signal, while they rehearsed while they increased the speed, etc.
        Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
        the battle would have been a dump

        I would not have gone - the cross-over of the T first detachment was not even close, and Kamimura could accelerate and break the distance
  3. +5
    5 June 2019 12: 33
    It is known that the higher the speed of the ship, the smaller the diameter of the circulation.

    In IMO World of Warships, the diameter of tactical circulation is considered one of the most important parameters and must be indicated in the in-game summary of the technical characteristics of the ships (despite the fact that a bunch of other parameters are hidden, and they have to be found only on specialized third-party sites), but for some reason, by logic The flatter diameter of the circulation with a decrease in speed also decreases (although not particularly significantly, but still).
    1. +3
      5 June 2019 13: 29
      It is known that the higher the speed of the ship, the smaller the diameter of the circulation.
      as they say - never mind a sailor ... But this statement also caught the eye
      1. +1
        5 June 2019 14: 15
        Quote: KERMET
        But this statement also hooked eye

        This is a fact confirmed by measurements of the speeds of real ships.
    2. +2
      5 June 2019 14: 17
      The circulation elements of a conventional transport vessel for a given rudder angle are practically independent of the initial speed at steady state of engine operation. If you increase the rotations of the propeller during the transfer of the rudder, the vessel will make a turn more steep than with the unchanged mode of the main engine.


      http://morez.ru/1-cirkulyaciya-sudna-elementy-cirkulyacii-diametr-ustanovivshejsya-cirkulyacii/

      So the author quite rightly neglected in his reasoning the influence of the differences in the speeds of the squadrons on the radius of their circulations.
    3. 0
      7 June 2019 21: 27
      That's why she and Lesta's studio - they are aiming to do something that they are not very versed in, to put it mildly. And the idea of ​​sea battle with them, judging by the World of Warships, is very far from reality. Take at least the range of fire of the main and medium caliber dreadnought artillery adopted in the game. Yes, and much more.
  4. +3
    5 June 2019 12: 39
    Good parsing.
  5. +2
    5 June 2019 13: 31
    And the option to turn "all of a sudden" with the attack of the front line ???
    1. 0
      5 June 2019 14: 03
      Quote: Ezekiel 25-17
      And the option to turn "all of a sudden" with the attack of the front line ???

      In what situation? :)
      1. +2
        5 June 2019 14: 34
        For example, in a situation of discrepancy with countercourses, also in this variant, if you turn successively on NW, you get the option of covering the tail of the red column.
        Yes, they can counter this, but will such a rapprochement of columns give a tactical advantage.
        1. +2
          5 June 2019 14: 39
          Quote: Alexander Morozov
          For example, in a situation of discrepancy with countercourses, also in this variant, if you turn successively on NW, you get the option of covering the tail of the red column.

          In the variant of divergence by countercourses, as you understand, the blue one must first go to the countercourt and complete the maneuver, and there the Reds will have an advantage - they were the first to start the turn on 45 and rebuild faster due to the higher speed. Therefore, it is the reds that will pass under the feed in blue faster than those - under the feed of the reds :))) In this case, an attempt to turn under the feed in red will not lead to anything - imagine the 2 snakes crawling one after the other in a circle. The first to get to the tail of the rival more high-speed snake :))))
          1. +2
            5 June 2019 14: 45
            It is absolutely true, but if the snakes are of the same power, then reducing the distance to the benefit of the slower snake;)). It seems to me that the task of the blue squadron is in this and will consist in reaching a short distance.
            1. +1
              5 June 2019 14: 49
              Quote: Alexander Morozov
              but if the snakes of one force, then reducing the distance to the benefit of a slower snake;))

              So her tail bite, where is the use here? :)))))
              1. +2
                5 June 2019 14: 54
                Well, this will not happen immediately, at a short distance there will be a change of ships, not a sequential shooting.
  6. +3
    5 June 2019 13: 39
    Turning "all at once" and moving along the course of the "blue" will bring the formation of the ledge of the "red" to the head of their columns, and Carthage will be ... eghkm, "crossing T" will be delivered.
    I do not agree on the last figure. When moving with a ledge parallel to the blue line, the notorious crossing of T is created for the nearest red ship. Secondly, how will the Reds shoot? The distance from all the red ships to the blue line is different, the Japanese version of shooting with one ship and transmitting the distance to the rest will not work. You forget about Smoke. The ship closest to the blue ones will make it difficult to observe the enemy with the rest of the ships following the ledge. I doubt that an independent sighting will be possible. If the Reds step forward outside the range of the fire, whoever stops the Reds will gradually deviate to the left. Secondly, the turns all of a sudden with a line of 12 ships are an extremely complicated and risky maneuver. Great risk of breaking the line. Only the Germans were capable of such maneuvers, and that was because they were regularly trained. And then they practiced a safer option - the first to turn the terminal ship. As for the penultimate pattern and tail coverage. This is less dangerous. In general, it is doubtful that it will be possible to quickly shoot and inflict damage on the rapidly retreating Red ships. In the battle on July 28, after the divergence in the counter courses, I did not even try to cross T the tail of the column. And he could not cover his head despite the advantage in speed. Why?
    1. 0
      5 June 2019 14: 13
      Quote: swzero
      When moving a ledge parallel to the blue line, the notorious crossing T to the nearest ship of the red

      It is not created, because the nearest red is on a relatively sharp exchange rate, and in any case, the distance to it will be much greater than from the red to the nearest ship of the blue.
      Reds outperform the blue ones and the distance from the end red to the head blue is much less than from the end blue to any red.
      Quote: swzero
      The distance from all the ships red to the blue line is different, the Japanese version of shooting with one ship and the transfer of the distance to the rest will not work.

      The Japanese had no such option. This is our option, but it could not be used here.
      Quote: swzero
      You forget about Smoke. The ship nearest to the blue will make it difficult for the other ships to observe the enemy following the ledge.

      Depends on the wind, and the "45" maneuver can be built taking it into account
      Quote: swzero
      Secondly, all turns suddenly line of 12 ships extremely complicated and risky maneuver.

      If not on 180 hail, then not too
      Quote: swzero
      Only the Germans were capable of such maneuvers, and that was because they were regularly trained.

      The Japanese calmly performed it in Tsushima
      Quote: swzero
      In July 28, after the divergence on counter courses, did not even try to cross the T-tail of the column.

      He could not, because the distance was too great - he did not have time to do it
      Quote: swzero
      And the head was not able to cover despite the advantage in speed. Why?

      Indecision. Fear of approaching and resolutely maneuvering under enemy fire. As a result, in the second phase, Togo was forced to do this, and in an extremely unfavorable configuration
      1. 0
        5 June 2019 14: 20
        Another question is why the turn is not considered all suddenly by 90 degrees and by 180 degrees to the right of the blue, after the reds lay on the course of 45 degrees.
        1. +1
          5 June 2019 14: 30
          Quote: swzero
          Another question is why the turn is not considered all suddenly by 90 degrees and by 180 degrees to the right of the blue, after the reds lay on the course of 45 degrees.

          Any turn all of a sudden preserves the situation of an "inclined stick over T", given that the stick is faster, it will still catch up with the "vertical" of the blue, wherever it runs
          1. +3
            5 June 2019 14: 45
            Not certainly in that way. When the blue ones turn all of a sudden by 180 degrees, the red column will become catching up and will have to catch up with the blue fighting in a parallel course. How much time will it take for her to have only 2 knots of speed for a repeated attempt to cover her head? Will the fate of the battle be decided before the enemy can come forward again. Will the enemy ships suffer damage during the battle on parallel courses that would deprive their speed advantage? If the pursuit is carried out outside the radius of the artillery, it will take longer and further actions can take place according to the scenario in the very first figure - the movement of the blue along a smaller radius. As for turning everything all of a sudden 90 degrees to the right, it’s all the same here. Blue, if they are not connected by the condition of movement in any direction, can leave them behind the stern and then the red will have to catch up with them on parallel courses and again the task is reduced to the 1st picture.
            The Germans in the battle of Jutland twice came out of crossing T by turning 180 degrees without fatal damage to themselves and both times the enemy could not do anything about it. Moreover, the British had both an advantage in speed and a huge volley in weight.
            1. +1
              5 June 2019 14: 49
              Quote: swzero
              When turning the blue all suddenly on 180 degrees, the column of red will be catching up and you will have to catch up with the blue while leading the battle on a parallel course.

              Not at all. The column of red turns "all of a sudden" and chases the retreating column of blue in the ledge formation :)))
              Quote: swzero
              How long will it take for her to have a total 2 speed node to retry head coverage?

              The pursuit will begin at a cable distance so 35-36 approximately (taking into account the turnaround time), in half an hour it will be 25-26 cables.
              Reds don't need to overtake blue ones, they cross the receding "tail"
              1. +5
                5 June 2019 15: 00
                I doubt the effectiveness of putting cross-tail T. A fast-moving target - it’s difficult to shoot, it will come out of the fire too quickly. And all this time the blue ones are moving away - then they will need to be taken back again for a long and painful time for a decisive battle. Smoke again. Why did the Germans calmly leave Crossing T at first with Jutland, first the head, and then the tail without receiving fatal injuries, and this with the overwhelming superiority of the British in firepower and significant in speed?
                Regarding the pursuit in the ranks of the ledge - it is countered by turning (including everything all of a sudden) blue 90 degrees back to the left. In general, I think the long-term action of the strom front or ledge for 12 ships is too complicated. Then, it is already extremely difficult to build a line - for walking on a ledge it is difficult to maintain the same speed, course and intervals for ships.
                And in fact, you still have to react to the enemy’s maneuvers. In Jutland, the British noticed too late all of a sudden turns - in fact, at that moment when the Germans completed them. Because the turn began with terminal ships, hidden by the smoke in front of the ships ahead (or is it still more visibility conditions?) From observation.
                1. +1
                  5 June 2019 17: 33
                  Quote: swzero
                  I doubt the effectiveness of putting T tail crossings.

                  Why?
                  Quote: swzero
                  Fast moving target

                  Not moving away, but approaching, catching up - faster
                  Quote: swzero
                  Again the smoke.

                  And what - the smoke? :))) How much I remember the chase - he interfered quite rarely. smoke and battle in the wake of the columns there, and nothing, fought :)
                  Quote: swzero
                  Why, under Jutland, did the Germans quietly get away from Crossing T, first head, and then the tail without fatal damage, and this with the overwhelming superiority of the British in firepower and considerable speed?

                  Both times, Jellico did not dare to pursue the German convoy, fearing whether the destroyers or submarines
                  Quote: swzero
                  Regarding the prosecution in the ledge formation - it is parried by turning (including everything suddenly) blue 90 degrees back to the left.

                  Not parried, the "tail" falls under the distribution
                  Quote: swzero
                  And in general, I think the long action of the stroma of the front or the scarp for 12 ships is too difficult.

                  Generally speaking, I largely share your feelings, therefore I wrote in the article
                  According to the author’s deep conviction, in real life, such complicated maneuvers were not required for placing the “crossing T”. Their need in our example is due solely to preferential assumptions for the “blue” in the accepted rules of our tactical game.

                  But in general, and the front and the ledge - it is possible.
                  Quote: swzero
                  And in fact you need to still have time to react to the maneuvers of the enemy.

                  Exactly! Therefore, in fact, blue will be much more complicated than in my reasoning - I provided for a lightning reaction for them
                  1. 0
                    5 June 2019 17: 56
                    Not moving away, but approaching, catching up - faster
                    Only if the tail of the column is pursued by the formation of the front, which is countered by a consistent turn of 90 degrees.
                    As for Jellico, I think he was afraid of losing control. It’s difficult to pursue the formation of the front with such a number of ships. Reconstruction and pursuit in the marching columns of squadrons is also difficult, then rebuilding back into line under the fire of the opposing fleet is even worse. There are no examples of using the front or ledge for such a number of ships. On maneuvers, such constructions were also not worked out for mine. The risk of losing control is too great. Those. one squadron / brigade / division of 4-6 ships can operate with a ledge and formation of the front. But several squadrons / brigades - can work together only in the wake column. Even the rebuilding of the squadrons from the marching columns to the wake line is a difficult task - for Jellico this maneuver took 22 minutes. Re-organization of a front or ledge back into line, I think, is no easier.
                    1. +1
                      6 June 2019 06: 34
                      Quote: swzero
                      There are no examples of using a front line or a ledge for such a number of ships.

                      Togo when Alexander III attempted to break through under the stern, he suddenly rebuilt everything into a front line and fought a battle at retirement, after which he rebuilt into a wake column
                      1. 0
                        6 June 2019 09: 46
                        This maneuver was still short-lived, in fact it was a U-turn, perhaps it was just completed in two stages, for simplicity and so as not to stretch the line. A successive 180-degree turn in the German style led to an increase in the intervals between the ships. A simultaneous rotation of 180 degrees is difficult, there is a risk of breaking the system.
                      2. +1
                        6 June 2019 14: 27
                        Quote: swzero
                        This maneuver was nevertheless short-lived, in fact it was a U-turn,

                        No reversal - it is exactly a turn all of a sudden and the battle in the front line is on the way out
                      3. +2
                        6 June 2019 15: 17
                        It was just a reversal - judging by the execution time of 14: 35-14: 47 - there was no sense in shooting down a shot and then fighting a few minutes on the move - you won’t even have time to shoot again. The goal was to introduce port guns into the battle, and not to lead the battle on the move. The fact that the maneuver was carried out for such a long time indicates the complexity of such maneuvers. In addition, it was carried out in two stages. Before you start the second turn at 90 degrees, you need to make sure that all ships have completed the first turn at 90 degrees and hold the line - all this takes time - all ships are not visible from the flagship. Not to mention the time taken to complete the order and complete the turns themselves by individual ships.
                      4. +1
                        7 June 2019 08: 28
                        Quote: swzero
                        It was exactly a turnaround - judging by the execution time of 14: 35 — 14: 47 — there was no point in shooting down the sight and then fighting for several minutes at the exit

                        The Japanese did it because of the maneuvering of Alexander, who substituted himself under the stick over T, but threatened to put such a Japanese squad on 1 — they simply had no choice
                      5. 0
                        7 June 2019 10: 32
                        You need to look at the maneuvering data, if at 14.35 this is the time of the beginning of the first turn, and 14.47 the end of the second, then in fact the ships went at a maximum of a few minutes - how much can you increase the distance at a departure for 5 minutes with an advantage in speed of even 5 knots? 5 cable? This is not serious.
                      6. +2
                        6 June 2019 15: 26
                        In any case, this was a short-term movement by the formation of the front, it does not follow from this that the Japanese could follow all 12 ships in a similar formation for a long time. The difficulty is not to build the front, but to hold it for a long time IMHO. Although this is just my reasoning, which is indirectly confirmed by the fact that in practice no one did it.
                      7. +4
                        6 June 2019 22: 13
                        Quote: swzero
                        In any case, this was a short-term movement by the formation of the front, it does not follow from this that the Japanese could follow all 12 ships in a similar formation for a long time.

                        No one has ever tried to maneuver 12 ships at once besides our "miracle" Rozhdestvensky. The Japanese also fought with two independent units. And at Lissa and near Yalu, the opponents fought in several detachments. A column of 12 ships is basically uncontrollable, half of the ships simply cannot take part in the battle.
                      8. +2
                        6 June 2019 23: 23
                        half of the ships simply cannot take part in the battle


                        if useful: the Japanese counted one hit by a 120-mm shell in the first two squads, which tactfully hints that 3 BWOs didn’t take part in the battle
                        although about half a bit too much - "Nikolai 1" annealed with might and main, I think, at least 5 hits with heavy shells, but what! (probably more) - almost certainly it was he who disabled the Asama and almost sank the Fuji
                      9. +2
                        7 June 2019 00: 25
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        3 BWOs in the battle did not particularly take part
                        although about half a bit too much - "Nikolai 1" was annealed with might and main,

                        The maximum firing range of Nikolai is 49 kbl. And he is 20 kbl from the flagship .. And the Japanese, too, somewhere around 15-30 kbl from the head of the column maneuver. There, visibility no more than 40 kbl was most of the time. Apparently, when the Japanese drifted far back, Nikolai connected.

                        As a result, the participation of the 3rd detachment was episodic, a bunch of 10 and 12 "were turned off from the battle almost all the time. This would not have happened if the ZPR had been fighting in separate detachments.
                      10. +2
                        7 June 2019 08: 22
                        so exactly, his favorite target, as I understood it, was "Asama"

                        pay attention: the battleships apart from the Mikasa (at which they fired at the beginning of the battle) received almost no damage, but the Nissin, for example, shook quite well, four of Kamimura's cruisers got each more than all 3 battleships except the Mikasa combined - processing of "crossing"
                      11. -14
                        7 June 2019 18: 24
                        This would not have happened if the ZPR had fought in separate units.


                        Did Rozhdestvensky have unit commanders? Would you list their names?

                        If Nebogatov - then he was such an excellent admiral that after the obvious (for everyone) failure of Rozhdestvensky and Felkersam, he did NOTHING to take over the command - he would have fought "in detachments" ...
                      12. +1
                        7 June 2019 22: 42
                        Quote: AK64
                        Did Rozhdestvensky have unit commanders?


                        Well duck, the coachman is bad - horses do not ride.
                      13. -14
                        8 June 2019 08: 28
                        Well duck, the coachman is bad - horses do not ride.


                        That is, we fix: Rozhestvensky did not have any "horses" at all. But Rozhestvensky himself is to blame, as it is absolutely clear to Sasha_rulevoy

                        AK already several times pointed out the seemingly obvious --- but at the same time completely ignored by critics: Rozhdestvensky took away ALL battle-worthy ships of the Empire. It would seem that with them (with the ships) they should leave the heels of the admirals. But no --- in the whole Empire, from 70 s + admirals, only Falkersam (who died from terrible stress and overload) was found
                      14. 0
                        8 June 2019 19: 07
                        Quote: AK64
                        Did Rozhdestvensky have unit commanders? Would you list their names?

                        In the empire, there were more admirals than cockroaches .. Certainly more than ships. Why no one bothered to manage the squadron, you need to ask ZPR and Nick # 2. The stories about "grenades of the wrong system" were used to replace the questions "who appointed such a fool to command" ..
                      15. -15
                        8 June 2019 20: 15
                        There were more admirals in the empire than cockroaches ..

                        About 70 people

                        Surely more than ships.

                        That’s exactly what they hint at to you: when there seemed to be plenty of admirals --- there weren’t any volunteers to go with Rozhestvensky. In general, there was somehow a little bit of fighting volunteers from admirals: Makarov was eager to do his best, but Rozhdestvensky.

                        Why no one bothered to manage the squadron, you need to ask ZPR and Nick No. 2.

                        Exactly from these two? And for everything?
                        Ships are bad - these two are to blame. Shells do not explode - again these two. The admirals suddenly became completely cowardly - again, Rozhestvensky and Nikolai Alexandrovich were to blame ...
                        The cat left the kittens --- we know who is to blame - but Christmas!

                        The stories about "grenades of the wrong system" were used to replace the questions "who appointed such a fool to command" ..

                        here is the one who thinks everyone around is fools. In the mirror with this question, in the mirror.
                      16. +1
                        9 June 2019 19: 43
                        Quote: AK64
                        That’s exactly what they hint at to you: when there seemed to be plenty of admirals --- there weren’t any volunteers to go with Rozhestvensky.

                        Excuse me, but are you confusing the fleet with some kind of society of lovers of embroidery with a cross? What other volunteers? Ordered and went ..

                        But for the fact that they didn’t guess what to order, isn’t it necessary to ask the chief of the general public administration? And his immediate supervisor also thought what place?
                      17. -13
                        9 June 2019 20: 45
                        Excuse me, but are you confusing the fleet with some kind of society of lovers of embroidery with a cross? What other volunteers? Ordered and went ..

                        How many orders did the 1st TOE receive before deciding to finally leave Port Arthur?
                        And where did she go, contrary to the order?
                        Or Nebogatov and Enqvist, how did they, eager to obey orders to fulfill? Just from the last forces, orders were executed, probably?

                        And the admirals - they are all old: they would be glad to go - but as luck would have it, gout escalated just yesterday, and gastritis. And only TWO --- Makarov and Rozhdestvensky - for some reason they were torn into battle (Looks like these two had neither gout, nor hemorrhoids)
                        Well, you’ll send such a painful admiral against his personal desire --- well, he will suffer the whole trip in the cabin from gastritis, and wherever the thread in Kamran will be completely written off ashore for health, the sufferer. And the sense of such bonded?

                        And besides, each admiral in office: who will perform the position? Pushkin?
                        No: sending an admiral into battle against his will is completely empty business. (What Nebogatov and Enquist proved substantively)

                        And volunteers for some reason did not volunteer.

                        But there were those who wanted to command: 2 TOE had not yet come anywhere - and Rozhestvensky had already been removed from the command in advance and quietly. That is, it was he who should have brought it - but upon arrival: "Thank you, Zinovy ​​Petrovich, but now we can do without you."

                        So that.
                      18. -2
                        9 June 2019 21: 07
                        Quote: AK64
                        How many orders did the 1st TOE receive before deciding to finally leave Port Arthur?
                        And where did she go, contrary to the order?

                        So this is what we are talking about .. "the fish rots from the head" (c) And with whom for such an army and navy to ask? Isn't it from the supreme autocrat?

                        By the way, where did you get the idea that ZPR was eliminated by silence? In general, he himself set such a condition.
                      19. -14
                        9 June 2019 21: 34
                        So this is what we are talking about .. "the fish rots from the head" (c) And with whom for such an army and navy to ask? Isn't it from the supreme autocrat?

                        From Peter the 1st then? Like, he "created".
                        Such armies and fleets THEN were with everyone. Yes Yes. Ideas about the discipline were just that. And the cabin-companion darling .... For modern people, this is completely incomprehensible.
                        And more than once here he wrote that "the golden shoulder straps are to blame for everything --- because they wanted to smoke cigars in the leather armchairs of the wardrooms, and did NOT want to go into battle"

                        But was it better later? Even under Stalin, Stalin was already cleaning the army - so what? But 1941 happened - and sheer cowardice and betrayal of the "comrades" commanders who imagined themselves to be gentlemen. Continuous mass betrayal.

                        In general, peacetime armies and fleets are very often completely unsuitable for war precisely because of personnel: in peacetime, other personnel make a career. And this is EVERYWHERE and everywhere.

                        By the way, where did you get the idea that ZPR was eliminated by silence? In general, he himself set such a condition.

                        He set such a condition in order to somehow get out. So that they can be released at least on some conditions. But it’s characteristic that those who wanted to accept the Rozhdestvensky squadron immediately found it.
                        But you think: is it ethical --- from the point of view of this very gold-running ethics and corporate ward-room solidarity? In fact, ANYONE who was offered this should have said, "Zinovy ​​Petrovich brought him - he should be in command!" Otherwise it all looks very ugly (even taking into account Rozhdestvensky's moral fatigue).

                        Yes, in general .... the state of the fleet was terrible. And considerable fault is that of Aleksei Aleksandrovich (who did not correspond to the position, but did not want to admit it). But as a result, he was finally put aside. And his position was eliminated.
                        But he is not the only one to blame: the main trouble is a too long peace: 90% of admirals and an even larger proportion of officers did not know what war was. A peacetime service requires other qualities (decomposes, to put it bluntly)
                      20. -2
                        9 June 2019 21: 52
                        Quote: AK64
                        Such armies and fleets THEN were with everyone. Yes Yes. Ideas about the discipline were just that. And the cabin-companion darling ....

                        Sorry, but I do not agree. You read reports and reports of Japanese commanders, so enviable! Aggressive and proactive. And that was their norm. The British Navy, too, is all right with aggressiveness. Cowardice and passivity are the diseases of the fleet namely RI. According to the rating of plums only with Italians can be compared :( Therefore, claims to the autocrats in the first place. They promoted cowards and fools and brought them up on their own.

                        Quote: AK64
                        Even under Stalin, Stalin was already cleaning the army - so what? But 1941 happened - and sheer cowardice and betrayal of the "comrades" commanders who imagined themselves to be gentlemen.

                        But this is simply not true. Which of the traitor generals, besides Vlasov, can you name? Where did they suddenly start talking about "solid" ones? There were enough fools, but what about the traitors .. You read too many anti-Soviet people.
                      21. +1
                        10 June 2019 18: 10
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Which of the traitor generals besides Vlasov can you name?

                        Well, for this there is the Internet — General F.I. Trukhin was appointed Chief of Staff, General V. G. Baersky (Boyarsky) as his Deputy, Colonel A. G. Neryanin, Chief of Staff Operations. The leaders of the ROA also included generals V. F. Malyshkin, D. E. Zakutny, I. A. Blagoveshchensky, and former brigade commissar G. N. Zhilenkov.
                        In addition, at least:
                        Bogdanov, Pavel Vasilievich
                        Richter, Boris Stefanovich
                        Budykho, Alexander Efimovich
                        Rotberg, Tynis Yuryevich
                      22. -2
                        11 June 2019 21: 48
                        Quote: Pilat2009
                        Well, for this there is the Internet — General F.I. Trukhin was appointed Chief of Staff, General V. G. Baersky (Boyarsky) as his Deputy, Colonel A. G. Neryanin, Chief of Staff Operations. ...

                        Are you sure that immediately after the war they were all immediately pardoned, like Rozhestvensky and K.? Or maybe even awarded, as for example awarded Rudnev?

                        Do not you think that the comparison in relation to cowards and traitors is still not entirely correct?
                      23. -7
                        13 June 2019 18: 34
                        Are you sure that immediately after the war they were all immediately pardoned, like Rozhestvensky and K.?

                        Did Rozhdestvensky betray someone? Rozhdestvensky did not even give up, as Nebogatov. And he didn’t run like Enquist. And yet Christmas was judged. (That's just to blame him for nothing)
                      24. 0
                        13 June 2019 22: 27
                        Quote: AK64
                        Did Rozhdestvensky betray someone? Rozhdestvensky did not even give up, as Nebogatov.

                        Yeah yeah .. I didn’t give up at all! :) Rozhdestvensky just handed over as a suitcase to the left-luggage office, members of his own headquarters. Moreover, with his full knowledge and consent. And what is the demand from the suitcase? laughing
                      25. -6
                        13 June 2019 22: 46
                        Yeah yeah .. I didn’t give up at all! :) Rozhdestvensky just handed over as a suitcase to the left-luggage office, members of his own headquarters. Moreover, with his full knowledge and consent. And what is the demand from the suitcase?


                        how funny you are ....
                        Didn't the teacher at school tell you that laughter for no reason is a sign of fooling?
                        What's so funny? Rozhdestvensky had a severe head injury.
                        Excuse me, but did you yourself have at least one head injury? Have you ever gotten a headache seriously? As I understand it, you are from a generation of snowflakes: you don’t know what happens when you hit your head in principle. But it happens badly: Rozhdestvensky was unconscious, and he was surrendered, yes.
                        The main fault is on Baranovo (the commander of "Bedovy").

                        Understand what your personal problem is: you are looking for simple answers to very difficult questions. AND can not --- you just don’t want to --- be objective: that’s why you argue as a woman: she knows very well that she’s wrong, but it’s important for her to keep the last word for herself. So you also argue, to a wheeze. WHAT FOR?

                        After all, Rozhdestvensky was eager to help the 1st TOE and MARCH, understand this at last! AT March!!! What is wrong with sending a squadron in March? Everything is correct. If the squadron had left in May, even if it was part of "3 EBR + 1 under-EBR (Oslyabya)", then the strategic situation would have instantly turned 180 degrees and the battle in the Yellow Sea would have had a different result. But Rozhestvensky was kept by hook or by crook until October! October, Karl! October !! And then they pushed me into the sea.

                        So what do you blame Rozhdestvensky? Has he ever spoken out for "it would be nice to come out in October"? How can one, being of sound mind and firm memory, accuse Rozhestvensky of "invented to lead the squadron" --- if he demanded it in March, but was sent off in October? After all, the strategic situations in March and October were fundamentally different!

                        So why don’t you want to figure out who and why did you slow down sending the squadron with all your might --- and then, when it was too late, the same people shoved her into the sea.

                        But these people and these reasons do not interest you at all: everything is clear to you BEFORE the evidence is presented by the parties.

                        And yes, stop minuscule, stop it altogether: it’s completely not masculine, it’s completely like a woman, to put minuses to someone you are talking to.
                      26. -7
                        13 June 2019 18: 32
                        Sorry, but I do not agree. You read reports and reports of Japanese commanders, so enviable!

                        It would be necessary to be more careful with the Japanese: you need to believe them through a rag. You need to filter them carefully. This is one thing. And secondly: the Japanese had both the army and the navy not of the most "peacetime" --- just 10 years before that there was a Japanese-Chinese war, which was just for them a very large-scale war (for the Europeans it would be "storm in a teacup") and an excellent school.

                        The British Navy, too, is all right with aggressiveness.

                        But the British no longer have: remember the beginning of the WWII

                        Cowardice and passivity are the diseases of the fleet namely RI.

                        Not true
                        Therefore, claims to the autocrats in the first place. They promoted cowards and fools and brought them up on their own.

                        In this case, start beating yourself on the head --- Are you Russian? Or is it Japanese?
                        But this is simply not true. Which of the traitor generals, besides Vlasov, can you name? Where did they suddenly start talking about "solid" ones? There were enough fools, but what about the traitors .. You read too many anti-Soviet people.

                        What are you saying, darling? THIRD generals who were in captivity were banally shot. THIRD!
                        And do not have tales about the cruel Stalin --- these are facts.
                        Read at your leisure about two friends Muzychenko and Ponedelin. Handsome men, military darlings .... courageous and courageous at meetings --- how they performed! Read especially about Muzychenko, about his activities in 1941: you will learn a lot of new things.
                        And before the war they both breathed, how they breathed .... How bravely the truth, the uterus was cut at meetings.

                        And the courage of October? (this one was not taken prisoner - that is, he did not become a traitor --- but really courageous somehow .... Especially when he changed clothes to the nurse to civilian from Sevastopol by plane "retreated")

                        In general, you simply do not know the topic. (you should be careful with you - otherwise you shouldn’t sleep at night later)
                      27. +1
                        13 June 2019 16: 13
                        Quote: AK64
                        But he is not the only one to blame: the main trouble is a too long peace: 90% of admirals and an even larger proportion of officers did not know what war was. A peacetime service requires other qualities (decomposes, to put it bluntly)

                        But the Germans did not know before WWI! France was smashed in the 70s, and in 14 - the first army in Europe.
                        It turns out that only the USA acts (and acted) correctly - whatever the year, so the invasion or operation
                      28. -7
                        13 June 2019 18: 41
                        But the Germans did not know before WWI! France was smashed in the 70s, and in 14 - the first army in Europe.

                        Do not exaggerate: the Germans in 1914 were no better than the others. Then just about the same level of competence of the army came together --- therefore, the Germans did not succeed either.
                        1870 was preceded by the Austro-Prussian and Prussian-Danish wars: that is, they trained on weaknesses. And in 1914, they did not show anything outstanding: the French on the Marne stopped them, and then chopped on an equal footing too
                      29. +1
                        10 June 2019 17: 50
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        Excuse me, but are you confusing the fleet with some kind of society of lovers of embroidery with a cross? What other volunteers? Ordered and went ..

                        That is why, unlike the commanders of the beginning of the Great Patriotic War, they didn’t put anyone at all. If a person does not consider himself able to command, why force him? Well, the admirals did not have combat experience. Although Chukhnin and Dubasov seemed to know the Far Eastern Theater
                      30. -7
                        13 June 2019 18: 42
                        Exactly
                        And this is by no means meaningless
  7. +7
    5 June 2019 14: 32
    It is known that the higher the speed of the ship, the smaller the diameter of the circulation. For example, the American battleship "Iowa" 2,712 cab. on starboard at 10-nodal speed and 1,923 cab. on the left side at 14-nodal speed. But here, in the same type of French battleships of the type “Devastason”, it turned out the opposite: “Devastason” with 9,5-bonds described a circle with radius 725 m, while “Curbet” at speed 8. had only 600 m. It is clear that at a speed of 9,5 knots. the circulation of “Kurbe” would be even more different from “Devastasion”.
    Erroneous statement. The speed of the ship does not practically affect the diameter of the circulation. Therefore, in none of the formulas for calculating the diameter of circulation (Shenher, Hammer) there is no such parameter as speed.
    Speed ​​affects the circulation period.
    The different diameter of the circulation on the right and left sides of the battleship "Iowa" is explained by the influence of the rotation of the propellers. The diameter of the vessel's circulation with one right pitch propeller when turning to the right is less than when turning to the left and vice versa. In the case of three screws, the two screws rotating in the same direction will respectively influence. With two screws, even if they have a different pitch, it is not possible to achieve completely synchronous operation of the screws, and in any case the turning radii on different sides will differ.
    (G.G. Ermolaev, L.P. Andronov, E.S. Zoteev, Yu.P. Kirin, L.F. Cherniev. Maritime navigation.)
    As for the French battleships, their comparison is generally not correct due to significant differences in factors affecting the diameter of the circulation (draft, differential, different steam engines).
    1. +1
      5 June 2019 14: 41
      Quote: Undecim
      Wrong statement. The speed of the ship does not affect the diameter of the circulation.

      I am sorry, but the sailors who made the relevant measurements do not agree with you. For a particular ship (one) the circulation diameter decreases with increasing speed
      1. +8
        5 June 2019 15: 14
        Firstly, this is not my statement, but a textbook (see link).
        I am sorry, but all sailors study according to the same textbooks, which, in particular, describe the methods.
        Above, I wrote that the speed of the ship has practically no effect on the diameter of tactical circulation. If you do not want to shovel literature, go to the Baltic Lloyd website (http://balt-lloyd.ru/morskaja-praktika/upravlenie-sudnom/cirkuljacija).

        That looks like a circulation tablet with which turns are performed. It is a grid of directions (radii) and distances (concentric circles), on which the circulation curves are plotted at different rudder angles. Speed ​​is neglected.
        By the way, your ignorance of the basics of navigation and maneuvering led to another erroneous statement, where you describe the successive rotation of the wake column by 90 degrees.
        Execution order: the lead ship puts the steering wheel at the set angle, the rest of the ships begin to turn with the arrival of the head ship turning point by a slight increase or decrease in the rudder angle, keeping the stem on the inner edge of the wake ahead. That is, all ships make a turn of one radius, achieving this with different rudder angles. Naturally, such a maneuvering requires the crew to fully observe the navigation skills and knowledge of the ship's maneuvering characteristics, and from the squadron it must be naval. Therefore, if after a turn the wake system turned into a heap of small, these are not problems of different diameters of circulation, but problems of inability to perform a turn.
        The reference to the sailors' measurements is not convincing, since it is not clear under what conditions who measured what.
        Knowing your dislike for the recognition of errors and the habit in this regard to deny them to the last, I will not discuss more. Read the theory and your articles will be even more interesting.
        1. +6
          5 June 2019 17: 40
          Quote: Undecim
          The order of execution: the lead ship puts the steering wheel at a fixed angle, the rest of the ships begin to roll with the arrival of the lead ship at the starting point of rotation by slightly increasing or decreasing the rudder angle, holding the forks on the inner edge of the wake ahead


          All is correct. Sam wanted to write the same thing. As a former steering-signalman, I confirm what has been said. The wake trail is very visible, even at night (it shines). Usually, the officer in charge is on the helm. On a minesweeper, the rudder is turned at full speed by seven degrees, no more. Then the experienced steering-signalman keeps his nose in the stream, turning left and right no more than half a degree. If the minesweeper is leading, followed by the floating hospital, then the minesweeper’s commander should be quick enough and not make such sharp turns so that the hospital does not fit into his wake stream. But this is self-evident.
        2. +1
          5 June 2019 18: 02
          Quote: Undecim
          Above, I wrote that the vessel’s speed practically does not affect the diameter of the tactical circulation.

          Well, I did not agree with you.
          Quote: Undecim
          The reference to the sailors' measurements is not convincing, since it is not clear under what conditions who measured what.

          I quoted in the article data on the American battleships taken from Belov. Not enough? Here are the data from other textbooks http://www.randewy.ru/nav/ucheb49.html
          The magnitude of the tactical diameter of the circulation is also influenced by sea swell and wind; in addition, the speed of the ship, its trim and draft are also slightly affected.

          But in general, the opposite statement is http://uzelokgz.ru/haracteristiky/manevr_1.html#chapter_2
          At low speed, the diameter of the circulation is smaller.

          Perhaps the answer is that the initial speed does not affect the circulation only when the engine is in steady state, but if the speed is increased, the circulation will decrease.
          Quote: Undecim
          By the way, your ignorance of the basics of navigation and maneuvering led to another erroneous statement, where you describe the successive rotation of the wake column by 90 degrees.

          Let's look at my mistakes
          Quote: Undecim
          The order of execution: the lead ship puts the steering wheel at a fixed angle, the rest of the ships begin to roll with the arrival of the lead ship at the starting point of rotation by slightly increasing or decreasing the rudder angle, holding the forks on the inner edge of the wake ahead

          Do you understand that the example described by you is impossible with the difference in the diameter of the circulations in 1,5 or even 2 times? And this is not uncommon for those times.
          Quote: Undecim
          Knowing your dislike of admitting mistakes and peri-habit in this plan, I will not discuss them to the last, I will not discuss any more.

          Oh well:))))
          1. +4
            5 June 2019 19: 06
            Well, who is this?
            Do you understand that the example described by you is impossible with the difference in the diameter of the circulations in 1,5 or even 2 times? And this is not uncommon for those times.
            First of all, one should be convinced of the availability of these same ones and a half and two times, that is, to have and compare the maneuverability characteristics of the ships of the three armored detachments that Rozhdestvensky built into the wake column.
            Secondly, the maneuver is possible and with such a difference in the diameter of the circulations, the flagship simply has to start turning with the ship with the worst maneuvering characteristics.
            And thirdly. If indeed the difference in the shunting characteristics of the ships does not allow them to maneuver in the wake column, then why put them in this column and try to maneuver? So that descendants solve a riddle after a hundred or more years?
            1. +2
              6 June 2019 06: 43
              Quote: Undecim
              First of all, one should be convinced of the availability of these same ones and a half and two times, that is, to have and compare the maneuverability characteristics of the ships of the three armored detachments that Rozhdestvensky built into the wake column.

              Not only Rozhdestvensky, but also the Japanese. Yashima had a circulation diameter of 253 m, the British armadillos for 400 m, it is obvious that Fuji had about the same. I heard that the circulation diameter of Nissin and Kasuga was significantly larger than that of the EB.
              Quote: Undecim
              Secondly, the maneuver is possible and with such a difference in the diameter of the circulations, the flagship simply has to start turning with the ship with the worst maneuvering characteristics.

              In theory, yes, but in practice it will lead to an artificial overestimate of the rebuilding time, which is unacceptable.
              Quote: Undecim
              And thirdly. If the difference in the shunting characteristics of the ships really does not allow them to maneuver in the wake column, then why put them in this column and try to maneuver?

              Rozhestvensky had these problems with Borodino-type XDUMX EBR - for some reason they have very different diameters of the circulations, but it’s better to ask a respected Comrade - I don’t have this report of the CRA myself
              1. 0
                6 June 2019 12: 04
                Yashima had a circulation diameter of 253 m
                What is the rudder angle?
                British battleships - for 400 m
                What is the rudder angle? What are armadillos? In 1904, Britain had only eight armadillos in the Metropolitan Navy alone. And how many? All British polls had a circulation diameter of 400 m? All British armadillos, did they all have the same underwater structure, the same draft, rudder structure and other factors that affect shunting performance?
                obviously that Fuji had about the same
                Obviously based on what? And the same as which of the British armadillos?
                I heardthat the circulation diameters of Nissin and Kasuga were significantly larger than those of the EDB.
                "I heard" is a very strong argument in the discussion, there is already nothing to cover.
                Rozhestvensky had these problems with 4 EDBs of the Borodino type - for some reason they had very different circulation diameters
                The control problems of the Borodino type EBR are known, as are their causes. However, you undertake to build an analytical picture of the maneuvering of the squadron, which includes the Borodino EBR, but you do not know their maneuvering characteristics. Do not find this to be an oxymoron.
                Andrey, do not be offended, but in relation to this article, listen to the commentator Saxahorse, he is fair. Draw the right conclusions from criticism. As Kees Werker said: "As we fall and rise, we grow."
                1. +2
                  6 June 2019 14: 23
                  Quote: Undecim
                  I heard that the circulation diameter of Nissin and Kasuga was significantly larger than that of the EBR.

                  In my case, "heard" means - read in the literature, but did not find documentary evidence of what I read. And I read it at Galenin's.
                  Quote: Undecim
                  Yashima had a circulation diameter of 253 m

                  32 hail
                  Quote: Undecim
                  British battleships - for 400 m
                  What is the rudder angle? What armadillos?

                  At the maximum. Everything. That is, from Majestic to Lord Nelson.
                  Quote: Undecim
                  All British armadillos, they all all had the same submarine structure.

                  Of course not. For different types, 400 to 500 is indicated approximately meters.
                  Quote: Undecim
                  obviously that Fuji had about the same
                  Obviously on the basis of what?

                  On the basis of the fact that it was built in England according to British drawings and a project :))) And the British, using Yasima’s example, investigated the difference in circulation that the modified shape of the underwater part gives.
                  Quote: Undecim
                  The control problems of the Borodino type EBR are known, as are their causes. However, you undertake to build an analytical picture of the maneuvering of the squadron, which includes the Borodino EBR, but you do not know their maneuvering characteristics. Do not find this to be an oxymoron.

                  I do not find it, especially since I DON'T BUILD a picture of maneuvering a squadron in which there is an EDB of the Borodino type. I am building a picture in which some averaged dbs are used.
                  Quote: Undecim
                  Andrew, do not be offended, but in relation to this article, listen to the commentator Saxahorse, he is fair

                  laughing good
                  Why should I be offended at you?
                  You have NOT objected to the merits of the article. ALL your claims are reduced to the diameter of the circulation, which I suppose different at different speeds, and you - the same. And this claim does not make any sense, because for analyzing the maneuvering for the red and blue I took ships with the same circulation diameter, which DOES NOT DEPEND on the speed of the ships :)))) That is, my picture of maneuvering completely takes into account your comments :)))) ))
                  You couldn’t even notice this, and on the basis of a completely insignificant claim, declare my material wrong :))))) You are just impartiality itself, noble sir :))))))) And, of course, they are not offended by impartiality :)))
                  1. 0
                    6 June 2019 14: 52
                    Well, everything is as it was. Everyone around you, just you D'Artagnan.
                    You did not object to the merits of the article.
                    One cannot argue on the substance of that which is not.
                    ALL of your complaints come down to the diameter of the circulation, which I think is different at different speeds.
                    My complaints come down to the fact that you cover issues in which you are incompetent, but you do not even understand this. Any theoretical constructs, if they claim to be something, should be carried out on the basis of certain knowledge, and not a distant acquaintance with the issue.
                    And you rush to minus, but say that you are not offended. And resentment in creativity is the worst assistant.
                    1. +1
                      7 June 2019 08: 31
                      Quote: Undecim
                      One cannot argue on the substance of that which is not.

                      Perhaps, but you did not prove it.
                      Quote: Undecim
                      My complaints are reduced to the fact that you are covering issues in which are incompetent, but do not even understand.

                      However, your example does not demonstrate my incompetence.
                      Quote: Undecim
                      And you throw a minus, but say that you are not offended.

                      I minus and plus not on the basis of insults, but on the basis of the quality of the comment. I think your worthy minus, that's all. If you see in the system of minuses a system for offensive offenses ... well ... your business, just do not project your perception on me
                      1. -1
                        7 June 2019 08: 52
                        Addressed to a friend, the song walks in a circle!
                        Perhaps, but you did not prove it.
                        To a person who, in relation to himself, professes creationism, it is impossible to prove the opposite.
                        Moreover, knowing your concept, I did not set such a task. The main thing is that the readers saw it.
                        However, your example does not demonstrate my incompetence.
                        Well, here too everything is in the classics - Mikhalkov.
                        If you see in the minus system a system of offending offenses
                        This is not what I see. This you see. At least admit it to yourself. Otherwise, critical comments on a strange set of circumstances are considered to be of poor quality to you.
                      2. 0
                        7 June 2019 11: 57
                        Quote: Undecim
                        To a person who, in relation to himself, professes creationism, it is impossible to prove the opposite.

                        What I profess creationism is your judgment, and nothing more.
                        Quote: Undecim
                        Moreover, knowing your concept, I did not set such a task. The main thing is that the readers saw it.

                        So - the readers did not see this :)))
                        Quote: Undecim
                        This is not my view. You see it. Admit it to yourself

                        Hmmm, the psychologist of you is frankly so-so :)))))
                        You are overly confident, make conclusions about unfamiliar people without a sufficient base. Here is a simple example.
                        Quote: Undecim
                        And then you are considered to be of poor quality only critical comments by strange coincidence.

                        In fact, there is no function on the site, thanks to which it is possible to determine who has put a minus or a plus. That is, you cannot know for what and to whom I put a plus or a minus, but you have the audacity to say you know :))
                        That is, in your attempts to evaluate the interlocutor, you do this purely from personal preferences. It is convenient for you to consider me a creationist - it will be so. It is convenient for you to assume that I do not plus critical comments - it will be so. As a matter of fact, you don't care.
                      3. +1
                        7 June 2019 12: 06
                        So - readers have not seen this
                        Are you convincing yourself? But say - not a creationist.
                        In fact, the site does not have a function due to which it is possible to determine who and what minus or plus set.
                        The same to me, Bin Newton.
                        M-yes, the psychologist from you is frankly so-so
                        I'm a normal psychologist. The mere fact that you are trying to reserve the last word and to refute me says that I am right.
                        But our argument, by and large, is nonsense. But the fact that you stop perceiving criticism is bad. There are so few good authors on the site, and it is becoming even smaller.
                      4. 0
                        8 June 2019 17: 54
                        Quote: Undecim
                        The same to me, Bin Newton.

                        That is, the fact that you pass off an unverifiable fact as an axiom does not bother you.
                        QED
                      5. -1
                        10 June 2019 19: 28
                        Still can't you calm down? Where did you find me about the "unverifiable fact"? In addition to ships and classics, you need to read.
                        And you can prove that you can be a normal article, and not an offended bickering in the comments.
  8. +4
    5 June 2019 14: 48
    From the foregoing, of course, the conclusions suggest themselves that winning around the 2 node gave a tremendous tactical advantage to the squadron that possessed it. With some correct actions by the commander of the fleet squadron, the slower one had no chance of avoiding the “crossing T”.


    We can recall the teachings of the French Navy in 1903, one day was devoted to practicing combat tactics between squadrons having a difference in speed.
    Admiral de Courthille Northern Squadron, speed 11 knots, Admiral de Maigret Mediterranean squadron, speed 13 knots. The distance of opening fire under the conditions of the exercises is 5000 meters.

    "..... the competent maneuvering of the Northern squadron under the command of Admiral de Courthille did not allow the Mediterranean squadron Admiral de Maigret, with a superior speed of 2 knots, to get him the tactical advantage that he wanted .... "1903

    Head coverage did not work out, the squadron must be trained.
    1. +1
      5 June 2019 14: 57
      Quote: 27091965i
      Head coverage did not work out, the squadron must be trained.

      Of course. After all, crossing the T = 2 node speed benefits + competent maneuvering. If the second term is absent, then, of course, the crossing will not work, as it did not turn out in Togo under Shantung, and under Tsushima too
      1. +4
        5 June 2019 15: 13
        The British succeeded in the Yulan battle, but the Germans were able to get out of coverage twice, and this was with 18 nodal battleships battleships in line and not 12 ships, but 22, which is more complicated.
        1. 0
          5 June 2019 18: 03
          Quote: swzero
          The British in the Yulansky battle turned out,

          not quite so - the Germans simply stumbled into the British line twice, and retreated "all of a sudden." Absolutely all analysts said that if Jellicoe had pursued the Germans, he would have defeated them, but he was careful
          1. +4
            5 June 2019 18: 34
            how do you imagine such a persecution? Build the front? How to manage so many ships in such a formation? I am of the opinion that for such a number of ships, without losing control, only 2 constructions are possible - marching columns and a line - and neither one nor the other makes it possible to effectively pursue the enemy while covering the tail (especially taking into account the fact that rearrangements from one formation to another take a lot of time). And when pursuing, there is a risk that you yourself will fall under the head or flank columns, especially taking into account that you only see the tail of the enemy’s line and you’ll see his maneuvers late — suppose the enemy has already turned most of the ships 90 degrees in succession, and you’re still chasing his tail is the same course and you get crossing-T and no speed will help - you have to turn 90 degrees under the fire of the proto-rival and all the ships will go through one shot turning point.
            1. 0
              6 June 2019 06: 44
              Quote: swzero
              How do you imagine such a pursuit? We build the front? How to manage so many ships in such a system?

              as the Germans did
              1. +2
                6 June 2019 10: 08
                The Germans simply turned 180 degrees, and did not go along the front line. What is good about a German combat turn of 180 degrees - the last ship of the line starts it, i.e. there is a guarantee that if he started it, then the signal passed along the entire line without distortion and all the ships and minor flagships received it and rehearsed, well, and the beginning of the maneuver turns out to be hidden for the enemy. Those. this turn is not all of a sudden, but sequential, and therefore suitable only for a turn, keeping the line. And then it should be noted with this method, the intervals increase. If so rotate 90 degrees, we get a ledge due to sequential execution, and not the front. And then it will be rebuilt back into the convoy from this position - a difficult task, especially if it is again carried out sequentially from the last ship.
                PS. By the way, even such a relatively simple German "combat turn" by 180 degrees for such large structures is difficult - in most works, as many as 3 such turns of the Germans during the battle are praised almost as a feat.
                1. 0
                  6 June 2019 14: 11
                  Quote: swzero
                  What is good about the German combat turn on 180 degrees? The last ship of the line starts it, i.e. there is a guarantee that if he started it, the signal passed through the whole line without distortion and all the ships and junior flagships accepted it and rehearsed

                  Alexey, taking into account the fact that the Germans had a flagship located in the middle of the line, I cannot imagine how you took this :))))
                  And the rest - I remind you that the Japanese in Tsushima turned everything suddenly with the whole crowd and rebuilt from the column to the front with absolutely no problems
                  1. +2
                    6 June 2019 15: 07
                    If the lead ships are late with a maneuver - this is not scary - you can always fix it. But if at the same time turning 180 degrees, the end ships do not receive a signal - there will be trouble.
                    As for the Japanese - apparently, they made a turn with two consecutive turns all at 90 degrees, this is not movement by the front, but the only more or less safe and fast way to turn around while maintaining the intervals between the ships is a completely alternative to the German turn with its + and - . But with prolonged movement by the front formation, inevitably there will be problems with maintaining heading, intervals and speed, which will lead to the inability to build a line — perhaps several lines — each squadron has its own.
  9. +8
    5 June 2019 15: 38
    +++ Fine, again Eternal topic ... Ex colleague Andrew, it is impossible to resist comment. There are so many erroneous statements because of erroneous (partial) assumptions ...
    We will not consider circulation diameters, because the initial conditions are that the ships are the same (except for speed), and no one maneuvers with MINIMUM radii (speed loss will be very large). So:
    1. "The author will consider the possibilities of using “crossing T” by the example of maneuvering 2 squadrons, each of which is composed of 12 armored ships “
    Why so long? Your name is not Christmas)) Here it is, if we had 20 armored ships, I’d also move them in one column, the terminal ones would just wait for the turn to reach them, hoping that the shells would end up))
    But Togo divided his duzin into two squads of 6, which maneuvered independently.
    2. “Accordingly, the ship needs time to level out in the ranks - that is, return to the wake and align the set interval”
    What for? The boatswain so ordered?)) The direct line is an abstraction, there is nothing wrong if the matelots are half a cable left / right and closer / further. Even if they shoot at the same target, their distances will still be different.
    This does not mean that it is not necessary to be equated, but it is not an urgent, paramount task for which nothing can be done. Yes, in the real world poorly maneuvering ships can be in a heap ... but here we consider the theory of “two nodes”))
    3. We will not consider schemes with turns in the same direction - this can only be done with superiority in the speed of maneuver. And the latter is generally erroneous, there the fictitious advantage of the “blues” is based on the erroneous assumption that the flagship of the “reds”, turning to the right by 45 degrees. and seeing the “blue” turn to the left by 90 degrees. must wait until all his ships have completed the maneuver. In fact, nothing prevents him from immediately laying a new turn "successively" for another 45 degrees (8 rumba), and preferably 7 rumba.
    4. What is considered in the only scheme with a turn in the opposite direction (which is the correct maneuver) is a “one-sided game”. "circular" battle. There, other factors (artillery, armor ...) have a much stronger effect than speed.
    5. Other options for maneuvering are not considered - in turn. Say a faster first six “blue” rotates 8 points to the left, and “slow” 6 - only 1-2 points to the right. As a result, the “blue” finish the maneuver and open fire much earlier than the “red”, the first on the flagship, and the second 6 on the tail.

    In conclusion, I will say that excellence in speed of 2-3 knots is good and gives more opportunities only if comprehended not to the detriment of other indicators, but still absolutely not enough to win, even with the same ships in the rest, different factors come into play ( fusion of squadrons, initiative of commanders ...) i.e. his influence is less than theirs. Yes, and for 2 minutes. (the difference calculated by the author in completing the maneuvers) of the then artillery, it was impossible to inflict decisive damage and solve the battle.
    And (with unequal eskadr) 2 knots (and even more) cannot compensate for superiority in the other - in the crew’s training, the amount of armor and heavy artillery, accuracy ... Therefore, the decision of a special meeting (1897) to contrast Japanese armored cruisers is simple more armadillos (of the same value) seems to be absolutely correct (but not fulfilled ((- of course, not "at all", but for the limited water theater of the Far East and against island Japan.
    Thanks for the topic, it is very interesting.
    1. +1
      5 June 2019 23: 30
      I completely agree with all your 5 points of the comment. To the 4th point, you can add not only the possibility of a symmetrical battle with the enemy’s tail, but also the ability to lose your tail if the main task is to break through. A rearguard of 1-2 ships can delay the enemy for a time sufficient to detach the main forces. Like in a Dogger Bank battle, for example.
    2. 0
      6 June 2019 06: 56
      Quote: anzar
      Why so long?

      The normal composition of the squadron, sometimes more
      Quote: anzar
      What for? The boatswain ordered it so?)) The straight line is an abstraction, there is nothing terrible if the matelots are half a cable left / right and closer / further.

      It does not work like this :)))) Admirals of those times did not allow this, demanding to keep the line precisely. There are lots of examples of this - you can recall, for a change, memories of the maneuvering of British cruisers accompanying our squadron.
      Quote: anzar
      And the latter is altogether erroneous, there the fictitious advantage of the “blue” is based on the erroneous assumption that the flagship is “red”, turning right on 45gr. and saw the turn of the "blue" left on 90gr. must wait until all his ships finish the maneuver. In fact, nothing prevents him from immediately laying a new turn “consistently” on another 45gr (8 rumba), and better on the 7 rumba.

      The squadron does not make a new maneuver without completing the previous one. Small cuffs that do not threaten the loss of the system (for a couple of points) are possible, but no more.
      Quote: anzar
      We will not consider diagrams with rotations in the same direction; this can only be done with superiority in maneuvering speed.

      Reds have it, what's the problem?
      Quote: anzar
      What is considered in the only scheme with a turn in the opposite direction (which is the correct maneuver) is the “one-sided game”. In real life, the “blue” ones can repeat the maneuvers on the attack of the enemy's tail, which leads to the so-called. ‚Round battle.

      And the blue ones will lose with a crash, as the red ones will go to the tail much faster
      Quote: anzar
      No other options for maneuvering are considered.

      Because such options were practically not used :)))) The same Kamimura, although he had a certain independence, began to use it noticeably only when the Russian squadron was essentially defeated. The problem is that such units practically did not have the ability to coordinate their actions, therefore such a division of the main forces was almost never used.
      1. +3
        6 June 2019 09: 45
        ... more happened

        It happened (with sailboats)), but not kosher)) If you are about Jutland, they maneuvered in order. Here:

        Reds have it, what's the problem?

        I’m talking about the blue ones (all the circuits are without one) And when turning in the same direction, the Reds have no problems of course.
        And the blue ones will lose with a crash, as the red ones will go to the tail much faster

        Significantly, how much? You calculated 2min. the difference. + 1 at the beginning of the maneuver - 3 min. not enough for a serious fire advantage, with equality in the rest of course.
        The problem is that such units practically did not have the ability to coordinate their actions, therefore, such a fragmentation of the main forces was hardly used

        Probably yes. You are right that with poor visibility this is impossible to do, and difficult with good visibility (even using radio and tablets with might and main) But two squads ... a little .. laughing
        1. 0
          6 June 2019 14: 09
          Quote: anzar
          Happened (when sailing)), but not kosher))

          I mean, the British and French, and German squadrons of that period had more 12 ships
          In Jutland, they did not maneuver one by one, in the sense that a separate detachment of line forces was obliged to follow the instructions of the flagship and did not have the freedom of maneuver.
          Quote: anzar
          Significantly, how much? You calculated 2min. the difference. + 1 at the beginning of the maneuver - 3 min. not enough for a serious fire advantage, with equality in the rest of course.

          Please show graphically, I cannot understand your thought.
          1. +3
            6 June 2019 15: 10
            in the sense that a separate detachment of linear forces was required to comply with the flagship

            Of course, because the fleet is fighting together under a single command (and there is only one victory for all))), but the rebuilds are carried out in order, which is faster and generally the only possible with such a number. This allows / allows quick configurations other than a strict wake line (British units are located at a certain angle (as if by a ledge), which nevertheless allows us to achieve the main goal of maneuvering - to shoot the entire fleet at a part of the enemy (local superiority)
            ... I can not understand your thought

            In the sense that "2 + knots." the fleet will start firing at the end ships for 3-4 minutes. ("much faster"as they wrote)) before the" blue "that with the then accuracy of artillery is not enough to achieve a decisive superiority. And any less other possible influence.
            All the same, it's abstract. task. In real life, children are "other differences" in the general battle often outweigh excess speed.
            I wonder how you think the Battle of Falklands will end if Spee instead of ShiG led 2-3 "bav" dreadnoughts like "Deutschland" laughing Ruined English base?
      2. +1
        6 June 2019 11: 49
        Because such options were practically not used :)))) The same Kamimura, although he had a certain independence, began to use it noticeably only when the Russian squadron was essentially defeated. The problem is that such units practically did not have the ability to coordinate their actions, therefore such a division of the main forces was almost never used.
        Rather, naval commanders are simply not yet ripe for such tactics. The fleet is characterized by a certain inertia of thinking. Although it is still possible the reliability of radio communications did not allow this to be fully realized. In WWI, fairly large vanguard detachments were widely used, which operated in battle separately from the main forces and from each other (British squadrons of Beatty, Hood, Evan Thomas, Arbennot, the German reconnaissance group Hipper).
        1. +1
          6 June 2019 14: 06
          Quote: swzero
          Rather, naval commanders simply are not yet ripe for such tactics.

          They are not ripe in the PRC.
          Quote: swzero
          In the PRC, large avant-garde detachments were already widely used, which acted in battles separately from the main forces and from each other.

          At the same time, in the only general battle of the fleets, both Beatty and Hipper completely failed the tasks before them. Beatty found the German fleet, but could not notify Jelliko about this, Hipper failed to detect the main forces of the KWMF
          1. +3
            6 June 2019 14: 46
            Well, by the way, the Jutladn battle IMHO just showed that linear tactics have outlived themselves. Lines of dozens of ships turned out to be uncontrollable because of this, they took part in the battle occasionally and even part of the forces - with such a construction it is difficult to impose the enemy in the right conditions and provide all the ships of the line with the necessary conditions for firing. IMHO, the Germans should have allocated Koenigi and the Kaisers as a separate compound - then there would have been a better chance of pinching Beatty and Evan-Thomas, and they could have left the monstroid line of Geliko without problems.
            PS. As for Hipper - did he have a chance to find the main forces of the fleet after meeting with the Beatty Cruisers? Nevertheless, Beatty had an advantage in the number of ships and in their quality (salvo weight, speed), and when the squadron of high-speed battleships joined him - it was all sad for the Germans - the only way out was to retreat to the main forces and substitute the adversary under their blow - which Hipper did. There was no question of any search for the main forces of the British, and there was talk in that situation. And as for Beatty - he didn’t find the German battleships, but Hipper brought them to him, and consciously. As for the subsequent run to the north - with such a balance of forces, Hipper could not move away from his battleships, and his ships were already damaged. Actually, everything turned out the same, but vice versa - now the British retreating led the Germans to their line. As for the second battle of the battleships - it was rather that Sheer was mistaken / hurried up with the maneuver - Hipper had no time for reconnaissance, his cruisers were in a deplorable state, and Hipper himself didn’t command the group at that moment anymore - Lyuttsov was out of order and the group was led by the commander of Derflinger.
      3. 0
        6 June 2019 22: 32
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The squadron does not make a new maneuver without completing the previous one. Small cuffs that do not threaten the loss of the system (for a couple of points) are possible, but no more.

        Actually, you yourself came up with this rule. It is nice of course to win beautifully, but the result is more important, so as it was required in the battle, they maneuvered ..
  10. +1
    5 June 2019 16: 14
    Andrei, good afternoon!

    Thank you for the interesting attempt to analyze this really complex issue.
    But, in my opinion, you made inaccuracies in the analysis of the option of turning the "blue" to the parallel "red" course. I will try to describe tomorrow in more detail and with an illustration.

    In addition, I would like to know your opinion on the following issues:

    1) Why shouldn't the “blue” turn “all at once” on the 8 points to the right at the moment of the start of the “red” maneuver, and then after about 7 minutes, “all at once”, but on the left and on the 4? Then the columns will be on parallel countercourses at a distance of about 35 cable and the "red" will not receive any tangible benefits.
    2) m. “Blue” does it make sense to do something before the distance between the flagships of the columns is reduced to 40 cable? Lie on the reverse course, for example?
    3) If the answer to the previous question is positive, do you not consider it appropriate to conduct the near cruise reconnaissance before the main squadron forces in order to learn about the enemy’s approach not when it becomes visible, but at least 20 minutes earlier?
    1. +1
      5 June 2019 18: 10
      Good afternoon, Ivan!
      Quote: Ivanchester
      But, in my opinion, you made inaccuracies in the analysis of the option of turning the "blue" to the parallel "red" course. I will try to describe tomorrow in more detail and with an illustration.

      I'm waiting! let's maneuver :)
      Quote: Ivanchester
      Why should the “blue” not turn “all suddenly” on the 8 points to the right at the moment of the beginning of the “red” maneuver, and then after about 7 minutes, “all of a sudden”, but already on the 4 point and left?

      It is when? Just from the standard position (the red ones turn to 45 hail) such a maneuver does not lead to the one you specified.
      Quote: Ivanchester
      Then the columns will be on parallel countercourses at a distance of about 35 cable

      Or I do not understand something.
      Quote: Ivanchester
      Mb “Blue” does it make sense to do something before the distance between the flagships of the columns is reduced to 40 cable? Lie on the reverse course, for example?

      You can, of course, but what? There is no sense to run - they will catch up and shoot the tail.
      Quote: Ivanchester
      If the answer to the previous question is positive, then do you not consider it appropriate to conduct the near cruise reconnaissance in front of the main squadron forces?

      Generally speaking, all other things being equal, in the overwhelming majority of cases, cruising intelligence is needed - of course, if it is possible to conduct it.
  11. +1
    5 June 2019 16: 28
    It seems to me that the very meaning of such a maneuver is somehow missed: with the unidirectional movement of opposing columns, when turning "all of a sudden" (where they are in the column), the bow art of those who turned to approach can focus on one, relatively "parallel" ship in their usual the manner of shooting, while the enemy going the same way (on all ships!) will have to turn the tower;
    the second reason - the turner is clearly inferior to the enemy and you need to sell your life more expensively
    1. +1
      5 June 2019 23: 24
      Quote: prodi
      when turning "all of a sudden" (where they are in the column), the bow art of those who turned to approach can focus on one, relatively "parallel" ship in their usual firing manner, while the enemy going the same way (on all ships!) turn the tower;

      And Togo did not have as many towers as ZPR. The Japanese have all the battleships casemates, they can only normally lead a battle on board. Unlike Russian Borodins, for example. By being able to impose the 2nd squadron on the Japanese to battle the formation of the front, Togo immediately has a pale appearance.
  12. +5
    5 June 2019 16: 53
    You can write anything to justify Rozhdestvensky. But the questions: what distance did the British keep during the maneuvers, what 2 knots gave an unconditional advantage? What maneuvers did the low-speed squadron take? How long did it take to cover the head and what distance of detection?
    But under Tsushima, the distances fluctuated greatly - from very close to distant. Visibility from very poor to more or less normal. For some reason, Togo had a plan in case of poor visibility and it worked. So it had for good visibility. The Germans freely came out of reach in Jutland. Moreover, the visibility was probably comparable to Tsushima. With the complete superiority of the British in the number of scouts. But the Germans left. They did not fight passively, going like rams to the slaughter, according to an idiotic order. Moreover, the most difficult moment was when they did not see the British at all, and they were seen.
    The Japanese maneuvered separately. And Togo was not afraid that everyone would be "lost." The detachments were torn apart, losing sight of ours, the head and end ones changed places, but the initiative was not lost. Yes, and how to lose it if Rozhdestvensky created all the conditions for this? A primitive order and that's it.
    Who prevented Rozhdestvensky from studying the results of the maneuvers? Who interfered with the convening of flagships and commanders and at least trying to develop a manner of battle in the conditions of the superiority of the enemy in speed? What has the headquarters been doing there for so long? - wrote the paper? Who prevented the creation of two units and give them at least some initiative during the campaign and in battle? But this is beyond science fiction. Is it really not clear to such a pro that such a long column is uncontrollable in principle, under any preparation and cannot walk fast? Rozhdestvensky considered his commanders to be sheep capable of nothing, who could only follow the leader. Usually those who consider others to be fools, for some reason, consider themselves very smart. The whole plan is sheer luck. In general, I get the feeling that he thought that the Japanese would stop at 9 knots. Like, we can stand it, but their coal will run out. Let them rush around. We did not come here to run away.
    I will not believe that the flagship did not have a clue in the characteristics of the subordinate ships and the blanks for calculating any maneuvers. If not, you need to take it and do it. Walk and train slowly. There was no connection at that time, no kings, etc., could interfere in principle and seize his arbitrariness in the campaign and waste of resources. Reported to Peter: coal is not enough, drive more. Well, immerse coal a couple of times in the sea once again? Anyway, how many stood in the same Madagascar. Although, what can we expect from smashing everyone and all the tyrant on the bridge? Mostly, the corkscrews all went smooth column. Something reminds me of the alignment of beds by thread. For training maneuvering, he had an ideal situation - 2 different along the squad.
    Now, if our squadron had undertaken anything sensible and defeated, then it could be said that 2 nodes affected something there. But Rozhdestvensky gave not 2 knots, but at least 6. In such circumstances, everything was useless. Although in such conditions, our managed to come off. But already without Christmas. And most importantly, no one was lost.
    The fact that he completely lost the plot of the battle suggests that he did not have any preparations. Maybe. And no excuses.
    1. +2
      5 June 2019 17: 36
      Quote: mmaxx
      That he completely lost the battlefield

      In fact, he won it completely :)))
      1. +3
        5 June 2019 18: 00
        Togo made a risky, but completely justified maneuver, as a result of which he swept the head and sank the Oslyabya. A little more and "Suvorov" was out of order. For this, "Mikasa" received a "large" number of hits, but after that he spent the whole fight until a complete victory.
        And this is all about the beginning of the battle. From the first minutes the Russian squadron found itself in a catastrophic situation, from which it never emerged. Well, I hit a bit of one Mikase. Can look at the results? Not the whole fight, but the beginning?
        1. 0
          5 June 2019 18: 46
          From the first minutes, the Russian squadron fell into a catastrophic situation, from which it had not already left

          What kind of battle are you talking about ???
        2. +2
          6 June 2019 06: 58
          Quote: mmaxx
          Togo made a risky, but completely justified maneuver, as a result of which he swept the head and sank the Oslyabya

          He did not cover the head, but Oslyabya did not die as a result of the Japanese maneuvering. However, in the next article about this will be detailed.
      2. +2
        5 June 2019 18: 42
        ... the beginning of the battle Actually, he completely won it :)))

        Rather, Togo lost, R. could have won more if he increased the speed of 1 detachment not by 11 but by 13uz., But in 2 and 3, first from 9 to 11 and then also 13.
        And of course if (with those shells) shoot from 13.55 not at Mikasa, but at Nissin. Large area of ​​6 "armor - not a single hitting shell will fly away just like that))
        1. +2
          6 June 2019 09: 38
          Quote: anzar
          if he increased the speed of the 1 squad not on 11 but on 13uz., but for 2 and 3, first from 9 to 11 and then also 13.

          This thought does not give me rest either.
      3. +2
        5 June 2019 22: 23
        In fact, he won it completely :)))


        As in a joke about firefighters: "We arrived on time, extinguished correctly, everything burned down."
        1. +2
          6 June 2019 06: 58
          There is one common logical fallacy called "After this does not mean because of this."
          1. 0
            6 June 2019 10: 05
            There is one common logical error

            stop
            Of course, from the point of view of logic, it must be presumed that previous events are always in direct causal conflict with the likelihood of subsequent lol fool
            1. 0
              6 June 2019 14: 03
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              previous events are always in direct causal conflict with the likelihood of subsequent

              laughing "Boyars in the Duma speak according to the unwritten, so that everyone's foolishness is visible" (c)
              The man put on white shorts, went out of the house and he was hit by a car. Of course. not because the driver violated the traffic rules and not because the victim did not show enough attention, but because he put on white shorts :))))))
              Andrew, well, you do not need to logic, here you have enormous gaps
              1. 0
                6 June 2019 18: 09
                sir, I used to think about you much better, sorry, I made a mistake - get rid of the complexes, learn to admit mistakes, you will be more interesting. Creative success!
                1. -1
                  7 June 2019 08: 34
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  sir, I thought about you much better before

                  Yes, I am completely uninteresting neither you nor what you thought of me. Personally, I have long understood how wrong you were.
        2. +6
          6 June 2019 14: 52
          To understand what I meant about this "win", I'll start with myself and some analogies. Once upon a time and very much I was seriously involved in sailing. And all of it has eaten into my life. So that's what. On the example of sailing, I was convinced many times that people constantly confuse ends and means. This is me to no one in particular, but in general. For example, in a sail for good riders, a successful start is one that allows (depending on the class of boats and distance) to take a good position 15 minutes after the start. The good thing is to have a free wind, the right position in relation to opponents and the ability to maneuver and tactical actions. Time 15 minutes in this case is the time in cruising yacht races. On dinghies it may be less. And a lot of athletes consider it a good start when the start line is marked with a "Start is open" signal and they give everything for it. Although sometimes it makes sense.
          Here's an analogy. So, the first hour of Tsushima fully demonstrates the difference in the start of Togo and Rozhdestvensky. Nobody cares about that heap of hits in "Mikasa", when he was almost alone, who stood parallel to the Russian wake and shook off ours. But ZPR (a good abbreviation) exchanged a good start for a whole battleship, which practically stopped with its maneuver, and head coverage. So much for his good start. And about the order to hit the head in general I am silent. Did he think that this is how everything will continue all the time when he goes straight NO23 gr., 9 knots? In the first hour it became clear that the Russian squadron was expecting nothing but complete defeat. In what cases did it become clear so quickly?
          What did Togo have after the start of the battle? Windward position. This is important because the weather was bad. Russian head coverage. "Oslyabya" was sunk, "Suvorov", as a flagship, turned to zero. That is, both flagships of the first two main detachments ceased to exist as an organizing force. Almost any movement of the Russian squadron is under control. And what did the ZPR have? A very good hit percentage for Mikasa? What's the use if he stayed in the ranks?
          And, Andrei, I ask you to take into account that I wrote about the coverage of the head, and not about the wand over T. What difference does it make in what way the lead ship suffers the fire of several enemy ships? This is exactly the coverage of the head. Togo pressed on the lead ship and controlled it completely, by fire and maneuver.
          In general, the desire of the British in the exercises to have a wand over T. is not very clear. In the sailing fleet, this is understandable. With sailing ships, maneuverability is limited - the flywheel is extremely limited, and there is no reverse gear at all. The captured squadron is forced to go simply into the wall of sticks over T. And here she is. In the sailing fleet, the British cut the wake system of the enemy in half. The severed front was forced to simply leave, because there is no reverse gear and no brakes, the rear was smashed by the British, starting from the head, especially since practically nothing shot at the nose of the sailing ships. So even the French found an antidote to this tactic.
          With steam ships, a little is wrong. The only case is the shooting of Japanese ships in Surigao Bay. And so many Japanese people left there, and the main losses of the Japanese were from torpedo destroyers. In Tsushima, Togo exemplary taught ZPR how to smash under-education.

          In general, thanks to Andrey for the fact that he covered a lot without emotions, with the help of facts. And we will somehow draw conclusions ourselves.

          By the way, there is another unwritten rule in the sail. If for some reason you were behind everyone, then you need to go the other way from the entire fleet. Maybe lucky there. Walking behind the fleet you have no prospects at all, they simply will not let you in.
          This is to the fact that knowing that you do not have superiority in speed, you need to do something wrong. Going straight like a ram makes no sense.
  13. +2
    5 June 2019 17: 26
    By the way - it’s funny that the diameter of the circulation could vary even for one ship, depending on which side it turns on.

    Right / left pitch of the screw?
    1. +1
      5 June 2019 18: 05
      With one screw there is a moment turning the ship. This is natural. When two, always made the screws of the opposite rotation to avoid this. Fortunately, there is no difference to steam engines which way to turn. Therefore, the reason is not the screws. A body assembly. They were curves - asymmetrical. Everything influenced. Even one-sided heating of the hull by the sun on the slipway.
  14. +4
    5 June 2019 18: 45
    Some reasoning is interesting. Indeed, in the situation shown for blue, any turn to the left will aggravate their position. To me, my opinion is the correct answer for them (provided that they are the weakest side) - a turn to the counter-course. As shown in the picture below, the red can only be able to put a stick over T over the tail of the column only with very great speed superiority - 3-4 times.



    In general, the article can only be of abstract interest, since in practice, none of the maneuvers considered in the article has been applied in the RYA. And in the Sino-Japanese war, too, did not find it. And in the First World War. Never once did Togo attack, moving straight towards it, turning 45 degrees to the right. In the Tsushima battle, he tried to make the letter T even before the start of the battle, but in a more obvious way - moving perpendicular to the Russian squadron. At the same time, he made a big blunder - the Russian squadron remained too far away. So he crossed its course without firing a single shot, and then he began to pile up his "Togo loop" in order to continue the fight in a standard way on parallel courses. He did not try to do more T, but fought, keeping on a parallel course, with overtaking and pressing on the head of the Russian squadron. Likewise, Togo did not make a single "all of a sudden" turn during the entire war, preferring more bulky loops to the risk of losing control. The dashing swashbuckler Kamimura a couple of times all of a sudden turns 180 degrees. did, but obviously he rehearsed them thoroughly in advance (and it seems at that moment the cruiser "Asama" lagged behind him?). Not in a single battle, neither Japanese-Chinese nor Russian-Japanese, did the Japanese ever lose control over their ships. Another thing is the illiterate Rozhdestvensky, who carried in himself airborne projections of ingenious rearrangements to the front and back, but at the same time did not realize the importance of control and management, so the flag officers who were standing two meters away from him did not understand him.
    1. +2
      5 June 2019 19: 35
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      He didn’t try to do anything else, but fought on a parallel course, overtaking and pushing the head of the Russian squadron.

      So formally, this is the same "crossing T" - the fire of the Japanese is concentrated on the head Russians. There is no difference - thanks to the higher speed of the course, Togo put pressure on the head of the Russians
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      In the same way, Togo did not make a single "all-of-a-sudden" turn during the entire war, preferring more bulky loops to the risk of losing control.

      "Meanwhile, the battleship" Emperor Alexander III "at 14:45 returned the squadron to the northeast 23 ° course. Perhaps he was trying to break through to the north behind the stern of the main Japanese forces. In turn, Admiral Togo made a maneuver to change the firing side. Part of the middle artillery the caliber of the starboard side of the Japanese ships was already out of order, and the gunners, of course, all this time were providing fire at the limit of their physical strength. Therefore, Togo, having made at 14: 35-14: 47 with his 1st detachment, "all of a sudden" enemy, and then 8 points to the left, opened fire on the Russians with his left side, that is, with practically the same firepower as at the beginning of the battle. The detachment led the Nissin under the flag of Rear Admiral S. Misu. "
      If it's a sequential turn, then I'm a ballerina wink
      1. +2
        5 June 2019 21: 53
        So formally, this is the same "crossing T" - the fire of the Japanese is concentrated on the head Russians. There is no difference - thanks to the higher speed of the course, Togo put pressure on the head of the Russians

        And what prevents (we change words))) to concentrate the Russian fire on the end Japanese and put pressure on the tail of the Japanese (i.e. to drown the BRK)? What is the "head" (especially Russian)))? After all, you write "The detachment led the Nissin under the flag of Rear Admiral S. Misu."
        1. +2
          5 June 2019 22: 20
          Yes sir. The turnaround of most crossing options is the rear and, as a rule, the most unprotected target of attackers snatches to the fullest.
        2. +1
          5 June 2019 22: 44
          Quote: anzar
          And what prevents (we change the words))) to concentrate the Russian fire on the end Japanese and put pressure on the tail of the Japanese (i.e. to drown BrK)

          Shot ... Helped? In fact, a decent amount of shells hit the Japanese !!! Yes Both nasal and terminal. The question is - what quality were these shells, if they did not carry damage to the Japanese (with the possible exception of the "Asams"), so that they AT LEAST would break down (not to mention the sinking). Think about it wink I already gave a link to damage to Japanese ships from Russian shells, will you repeat it?
          1. +1
            5 June 2019 23: 21
            Think about it

            Everyone thought, I also thought ... (http://alternathistory.com/tsusima-moglo-li-byt-po-drugomu-prodolzhenie-4/))) bully Dear author also has very good alternatives)))
            The question is - what quality were these shells?

            SW colleague Andrei, here we consider the effect of a 2-node speed difference on the possibility of creating (by maneuvering) an artillery advantage. With equality in the rest. My opinion is that if Roger had an advantage in speed over Togo even 4 knots, but everything else is like in real life, then everything would end the same way. hi
            1. -14
              7 June 2019 09: 01
              Roger has an advantage in speed over Togo even 4 knots, but everything else is like in real life, then everything would end the same way.

              He would break into Vladik, even at equal squadron speed.

              Rozhdestvensky did not seek to give a fight - it would be enough for him to break into Vladik: It would be a GREAT success.
              1. +2
                7 June 2019 11: 40
                ..that it would be enough to break into Vladik: It would be a GREAT success.

                In comparison with real, success is possible, but what should he do there? There is no place to wait for a hypothetical 4ToE)), it is difficult to repair the surviving ships, it is impossible to get Japanese communications from here IN THE YELLOW SEA ... Is it through Tsushima again ...)))
                Success could be:
                1. In time to strengthen 1 ToE Oslyaby with Aurora (and Alexander 3?) And leaving Sisa and Navarin there, sending them to the Baltic AFTER the planned arrival of new armadillos.
                2. If not, catch the fleet in Vladivostok in time for the fall (part).
                3. If not, force Togo to battle near Arthur (by attacking Dalniy and / or Father Eliot) and inflict him significant losses, even with the loss of the whole squadron (covering the 2ToE task)
                In this list "breakthrough" 2TOE in Vladik does not appear))
                1. -14
                  7 June 2019 14: 54
                  In comparison with real life, success is possible,

                  In any case, it would be both Success and Victory. With a capital letter.
                  Well, if you do not understand this - well, what can I do? I can’t do anything

                  Success could be:

                  Why talk about what could not be?
                  I’ll throw you a car in 5 minutes. Moreover: in order to win this war, and, even better, to avoid this nafig unnecessary war, it would be enough to feed one person with olives. One and only.
        3. -14
          7 June 2019 08: 58
          And what prevents (we change words))) to concentrate the Russian fire on the end Japanese and put pressure on the tail of the Japanese (i.e. to drown the BRK)? What is the "head" (especially Russian)))? After all, you write "The detachment led the Nissin under the flag of Rear Admiral S. Misu."


          (1) loss of control
          (2) the most powerful ships must be knocked out first: even if the Russians drowned all the Kamimura cruisers --- this would not have changed the outcome of the battle.
          1. +2
            7 June 2019 09: 57
            (1) loss of control

            Was it? (control)) And if you do not shoot at the ends (reverse coverage), how does this help about "no loss of control"? Togo had a junior flagship of the detachment for each terminal ship of TWO detachments. Those. in the theoretical case (which we are considering) this should also be the case.
            the most powerful ships must be knocked out first

            It is not true, we need those who can be brought out faster by reducing the return fire. And the "strongest" are usually the "most protected" (Mikasa)
            drown the Russians all Kamimura’s cruisers --- that would not have changed the outcome of the battle.

            A very incorrect statement, even purely formal. 12: 0 and 12: 6 are very different results (otherwise everyone favors a "dry" account))) And in real life the loss (not even drowning) is a few yap. BrK (especially in the beginning) would be very strongly reflected. Let's say Nissin with Kasuga (1st and 2nd squad) and which thread is the two-pipe Asama / Tokiwa (with Harvey armor)
            1. -15
              7 June 2019 14: 59
              A was it? (control))

              The Japanese? And what, are there any doubts about that?

              Or are you trying to retroactively advise the Japanese to shoot Suvorov?

              It is not true, we need those who can be brought out faster by reducing the return fire. And the "strongest" are usually the "most protected" (Mikasa)

              The contribution to the defeat of the 8-inch Kamimura .... is relatively small. So why spend ammo on them?

              A very false statement, even purely formal.

              It is clear: you can not continue further, and please ignore me, because you KNOW EVERYTHING, but I don’t know anything. So why should you waste time on me?
      2. -14
        7 June 2019 08: 56
        So formally, this is the same "crossing T" - the fire of the Japanese is concentrated on the head Russians. There is no difference - thanks to the higher speed of the course, Togo put pressure on the head of the Russians


        Well, no, Togo's maneuver (head coverage) was even considered a "new word"

        Andrei (and the rest of the debaters) let out one point: Crossing T would inevitably lead Togo to the fact that he would turn out BEHIND Rozhdestvensky. That is, Rozhdestvensky would break through (even for a while), and Togo would have to catch up. As it was in the Yellow Sea.

        All those maneuvers that Andrey speculatively examines here are from the same opera: with them, the Russians find themselves to the north of the Japanese. And Togo was trying with all his might to "not let him in" - and this is clearly seen in his maneuvering.
    2. +1
      5 June 2019 19: 39
      Yes sir! The topic is closed, IMHO
      1. +3
        5 June 2019 20: 41
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        The topic is closed.

        The key word here is "possible", because at a slower speed, only a breakthrough can be said ... mmm, how to put it mildly, a person who is absolutely far from tactical assumptions wink
        1. +2
          5 June 2019 20: 48
          mmm, to put it mildly


          But why. in the afternoon battle, wait for the night - and there the card can lie completely differently), this time
          13 knots against 15 you can try and break through, these are two

          9 knots versus 15 can’t break through unrealistic, I won’t argue how many times they rubbed and drew - a stone flower does not come out, although they were pretty hard
          1. 0
            10 June 2019 23: 16
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            But why. in the afternoon battle, wait for the night - and there the card can lie completely differently), this time
            13 knots against 15 you can try and break through, these are two

            Something the night map didn’t help the Russians very much. With such an advantage in destroyers. Togo had a plan for night and day.
            1. 0
              10 June 2019 23: 40
              Togo had a plan for both night and day


              Yes sir. But there is a saying: "Night battle is a chance for the weak." It is clear that Togo was stronger and had much more chances and he had a huge amount of plans compared to the ZPR. An unexpected maneuver could play for the Russians, and night and poor visibility in general are of great help. In the end, I saw the scouts - turn south-west, make a loop and return to the same place, but not at 13-30, but at 17-30, when the visibility was no longer the same. And at 18-30, turn on 13 knots, maybe the next morning Togo will miss 40 miles - it's far from a fact, but at least a scanty, but at least some chance. Count on "fools are lucky" all the better than a herd for slaughter.
              1. 0
                10 June 2019 23: 57
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                An unexpected maneuver could play for the Russians

                Could play .And could not play. Is it worth it? Can you count on the war? Rozhdestvensky wanted to go through the strait during the day to avoid night attacks by destroyers, not to lose some of the ships in the dark, not to run aground. Of course, if he would know the result, he would try other options. But this is impossible
                1. +1
                  11 June 2019 19: 41
                  if he knew the result


                  he knew that as a result of the daytime artillery battle on July 28.07, not a single Russian EDB reached Vladivostok

                  avoid night attacks by destroyers


                  he knew that as a result of night attacks of destroyers on July 28.07, not a single Russian EDB was sunk
                  He knew that on July 28.07, not a single Russian EDB ran aground laughing

                  everything was clear and known in advance
    3. +1
      5 June 2019 19: 50
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      As shown in the picture below, putting a stick over T over the tail of a column of red can only have time with a very large superiority in speed - 3-4 times.

      Moreover, it seems to me, when the reds approaching the front, they themselves put their tails under the T-stick, if the blue ones fall on the same course and then turn left
      1. 0
        6 June 2019 07: 18
        Quote: KERMET
        Moreover, it seems to me, when the reds approaching the front, they themselves put their tails under the T-stick, if the blue ones fall on the same course and then turn left

        Red mirrors this maneuver and have time first :)))
      2. -13
        7 June 2019 09: 05
        Moreover, it seems to me, when the reds approaching the front, they themselves put their tails under the T-stick, if the blue ones fall on the same course and then turn left

        Yes.
        And what's more:
        (1) 2 guns versus 4
        (2) the angular velocity of the target is absent --- therefore, a smaller angular size gives no advantages.
        (3) close flights hit the target.

        All the arguments of Andrei are generally speculations of the purest water.
    4. +1
      6 June 2019 07: 17
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      As shown in the picture below, putting a stick over T over the tail of a column of red can only have time with a very large superiority in speed - 3-4 times.

      Well, let's count :))))
      At the beginning of the blue maneuver, the distance between the turning points will be on the order of 36,5 cab. The Reds will finish their maneuver with an advantage of about 4 minutes. Accordingly, turning everything suddenly, they will be at a distance of 28 cab by the end of the maneuver, after 8 minutes the distance between the red squadron and the blue turning point will be the 8 cab, and the blue ones will leave the turning point by about 17 cab and voila - crossing T. not through the left shoulder, as on the diagram in the article, but through the right one, then I really made a mistake
      1. 0
        6 June 2019 10: 18
        Typical logical error A & A.

        In all of his schemes, the Reds get an advantage. due to the earlier start of the maneuver

        Thus, A&Ch spent 10 thousand words on proving that it is precisely the ability to actively maneuver in the beginning of the battle that steers, and plus two nodes in favor ... the blue ones do not always help)

        Why does the AICH not consider the option when the blue maneuvers begin
        It also considers only the initial conditions, when the blue ones obviously do not have time to organize a counter-maneuver

        Ceterum censeo
        dashes should always be in the proportion of 15/13
        1. 0
          6 June 2019 10: 37
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          In all its schemes, the reds gain an advantage due to the earlier start of the maneuver.

          + more time to perform the blue maneuver
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Why does the AICH not consider the option when the blue maneuvers begin

          Considers and shows that in this case the collapse of the blue squadron occurs much faster. Alas, you did not master the article.
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          It also considers only the initial conditions, when the blue ones obviously do not have time to organize a counter-maneuver

          On the contrary, I give completely inadequate assumptions that the blue ones are able to launch a counter-maneuver almost instantly, in fact, this is not the case.
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          all dashes should be

          The number of dotted lines to the speed / distance squadron has no relation. Get over it, or check with a calculator :)
          1. +2
            6 June 2019 11: 29
            The number of dots to the speed / distance of squadrons has nothing to do.


            colleague, I'm sorry, but the number of dots is a graphic solution to the problem of correlating positions - go to school to finish your studies

            Accept it, or check with a calculator :)


            checked and calculator and graphically, you do not go stone flower)
            1. -1
              6 June 2019 13: 59
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              colleague, I apologize, but the number of dotted lines is a graphical solution to the problem of correlating positions

              There will be no forgiveness, for the simple reason that the scheme which I cite is not at all obliged to correspond to your ideas about the correctness or incorrectness of the schemes.
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              checked and calculator and graphically, you do not go stone flower)

              It turns out :))) But you obviously have no reason to argue on the merits. Hence the stupid quibbles to design
              1. +1
                6 June 2019 18: 16
                This is not a nuisance to the design, and the indication that your drawings are not diagrams.

                You began to bear that the arrows are trajectories, not an indication of position. This means that your drawings, not schemes, but rubbish and trash, an unworthy high school student. These drawings of yours do not show anything but your desire to prove your point at all costs.

                Are you definitely not 11 years old? I hope to see you soon when discussing a worthwhile article.
                1. -2
                  7 June 2019 08: 38
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  This is not a nuisance to the design, and the indication that your drawings are not diagrams.

                  And the drawings are not, but just so? The essence they convey right
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  You began to bear that the arrows are trajectories, not an indication of the position. This means that your pictures are not diagrams, but rubbish and hack work, unworthy of a high school student.

                  I can not tell you how important your opinion is to me :)))))
      2. -14
        7 June 2019 09: 10
        Well, let's count :))))


        Aren't you surprised that Togo in the Yellow Sea jerked his HEAD to catch up (and overtake), instead of crossing the T behind the tail?

        In the picture drawn (as in the Yellow Sea), blue should be turned 8 rumba to the left: and AMEN
        1. +1
          7 June 2019 10: 40
          Aren't you surprised that Togo in the Yellow Sea jerked his HEAD to catch up (and overtake), instead of crossing the T behind the tail?

          Not surprising, there Togo had the task of preventing even a part of the Russians from leaving for Vladivostok, where 2TOE would have been awaited. That is, the most "other goals and objectives" that took place under the notorious Brit. maneuvers.
          And catching up, Yapi fired for a very long time precisely at TAIL Poltava.
          1. -15
            7 June 2019 15: 03
            Excuse me, but for some reason I’m not interested in talking to you.

            PS: In Tsushima it was the same: Togo with all his strength crossed the road to Rozhestvensky, and did not climb south - he did not repeat his mistake of battle in the Yellow Sea. When the Russians were leaning south --- Togo interrupted the battle and torn the distance: it was enough for him not to let the Russians go north.

            But this is my LAST comment in response to your statements.
    5. +1
      7 June 2019 16: 40
      I will assume that Togo simply "scanned" the sea with a zigzag to be guaranteed to reach ours. Here on one tack he will find 2 TEs. He moved calmly to the windward side and turned Togo with his "loop". The importance of windwardness becomes important after reading the books of O. Parkes. The lower six-inches of the British battleships were constantly flooded. If the wave and wind went to the starboard side, they would have to be abandoned. Therefore, Togo constantly took upwind position.
  15. +2
    5 June 2019 19: 45
    In other words, the “inner circle” can really help the slow-moving squadron, but only if the high-speed squadron, instead of, without further ado, immediately set “crossing T” to its slow-moving enemy, for some reason will tie the correct one battle in wake columns, and only after that will try to set “crossing T”.


    In other words, assuming a 2 TOE speed of 13 knots, and Togo 15 knots, if Togo hadn't set the crossing T ZPR right away, he wouldn't have put it and then during the pursuit in parallel courses, why did I spend 102 comments to prove this A&Ch? request
    1. +2
      5 June 2019 20: 44
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      In other words, assuming a speed of 2 TOE at 13 knots, and Togo at 15 knots

      But the whole beauty of the situation is that during their proofs, everyone operates "if by now."
      If the grandmother had something, then it would be a grandfather. laughing The reality is that you were not in the place of Rozhdestvensky, and the squadron did not go 13-junction. ALL, the topic is closed hi
      1. +3
        5 June 2019 20: 53
        yes, damn it, in the place of ZPR 13 Vitteft would give XNUMX knots (he gave), and Makarov too (he tried), would give Nebogatov (he gave), and would give Jessen (he gave), would also any decent caperang and kautorang too, die ZPR the day before the battle

        But ZPR in the cabin of Suvorov is not an accident, but a complex chain of historical laws, alas

        With ZPR the topic is closed, and so - play, not one year is enough drinks
        1. +2
          6 June 2019 02: 04
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          in place of the ZPR 13 nodes would give Vitgeft (he gave)

          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          In other words, given the speed of 2 TOE to 13 nodes, and Togo to 15 nodes, if Togo had not set the crossing TPR immediately, he would not have set it and then pursued in parallel courses

          And why Togo had to go strictly at fifteen knots? Fourteen to sixteen knots, according to a report from one of the British attachés, is a move with "Fuji". And not just speed, but speed without any risk.
          Without "Fuji", the remaining three battleships would have delivered "crossing T", even if 2 TOE developed 14 knots.
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          13 of nodes would give Nebogatov (he gave)

          Where does this information come from? The maximum progress of Nebogatov’s connection is 12,66, and then only during the time period 18: 25 - 18: 45 in Russian time. Before и after he didn’t even show this.
          And at Rozhestvensky, the speed at the beginning of the battle ranged from 11,3 to 11,8 bonds.
          Just in case.
          I have the speed of movement of the Russian main forces in two general naval battles of the Russo-Japanese War, divided into temporary sections (seven and seventeen, respectively). About seven years ago I posted it on Tsushima for everyone to see. No one objected, Abakus thought that looked quite plausible.
          1. 0
            6 June 2019 09: 15
            About seven years ago I posted it on Tsushima for everyone to see. No one objected, Abakus thought that looked quite plausible.


            give a link, psta, ready to see if that
            I’ll remember, always with joy
            I'm sorry, always ready

            Thank you in advance!
          2. +1
            6 June 2019 22: 04
            And the La-7 fighter developed a top speed of 680 km / h. Such data were submitted in almost all publications on this topic until recently. But, no serial fighter of this type has ever exceeded the speed of 656 km / h.
            The maximum speed of the long course of the first squad of Togo is 15 knots. Couldn't Fuji anymore.
            Without Fuji, the speed would be higher. The question is how much. The Japanese battleships were overloaded both structurally and operational. Especially pleased with the passage that the Japanese were able to get rid of excess coal in motion, throwing it overboard.
            With water-tube boilers in the first series of armadillos, the British also suffered. But the Japanese are not?
            Kammimura's detachment was slowed down by the 16 junction Yakumo and the 15 junction Azuma. They obviously asked for the first squad, and the "Italians" - for the "cruising" squad. Kammimura, in this case, would receive a connection of six ships, each of which could maintain a continuous speed of 17 knots. The detachment would really become "cruising", fast, compared to the first detachment,
            "flying squad".
  16. +1
    5 June 2019 19: 52
    All this is true, but the commander of the “Reds” has a quite elegant counter-maneuver.


    in this diagram, the speed of red = 22 is dotted line, and the speed of blue = 12 is dotted lol fool

    And then the “reds” can turn to the left successively (Figure 1 in the diagram below) in order to set the “crossing T” for the end ships of the column.


    and in this diagram the speed of red = 36 dots, and the speed of blue = 10 dots lol fool

    That is, of course, at this stage there is no “crossing T” yet, but the start of the maneuver is unsuccessful for the “blue”.


    it if they do not attack the red while they turn bully

    and so on.

    There is nothing to comment here, just rewrite the diagrams based on the speed of the blue ones at 13 dots and the red ones at 15 dots, and then you can start the discussion. Have a nice day!
    1. 0
      6 June 2019 07: 21
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      in this diagram, the speed of red = 22 is dotted line, and the speed of blue = 12 is dotted

      That's for sure fool Andrew, you calculator banned? :)))) What does the number of dotted lines mean when the arrows indicate only the direction, but not the position of the squadrons? :)))
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      There is nothing to comment

      Drain counted
      1. +2
        6 June 2019 09: 18
        What does the number of dots mean, when the arrows indicate only the direction, but not the position of the squadrons? :)))


        Moreover, in order to occupy the position indicated by the dotted lines per unit of time, it is necessary to have a relative speed equal to the ratio of the number of dotted lines among themselves. Well, or draw in blue a completely different position)

        Because there is nothing to comment on. Schemes summed up)
        1. +1
          6 June 2019 10: 39
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Given that in order to occupy a position indicated by dotted lines, it is necessary to have a relative speed equal to the ratio of the number of dotted lines to each other.

          For the particularly weak in the Russian language, I explain again - the dotted lines DO NOT SHOW THE Squadron positions, but only designate the directions of their movement :)))
          I understand, of course, that the dotted line is the only thing that you thought was familiar, but do not build wild theories on this :))))))
          1. +1
            6 June 2019 11: 51
            Colleague, once again for those who have not mastered the school curriculum: the task of correlating positions in time is solved graphically by plotting dots and dots of the "time - place" format on the millimeter paper, you are not yet able to do this

            As usual, instead of specifics (schemes, calculations), it’s gone:
            the dotted lines DO NOT SHOW the position of the squadrons, but only indicate the direction of their movement :)))

            Then redraw the diagrams and display position, and do not fill in the Internet hack
            So far, according to the secondary school program, you have a second post = total failure
            1. +1
              6 June 2019 13: 51
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              Colleague, once again for those who have not mastered the school curriculum: the task of correlating positions in time is solved graphically by applying dotted lines and dots of the "time-place" format on the millimeter paper,

              Andrew, if you need it - go ahead with songs. All sources are at your disposal.
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              As usual, instead of specifics (schemes, calculations), it’s gone:

              More than enough details are given. Everything is obvious here for any sane person who has mastered at least high school, and if he has any questions, then it is easy for him to calculate the consequences of this or that maneuver. For example, in the same last diagram, in which you started counting "dotted lines" so funny, with minimal knowledge of geometry, it is obvious that at the end of the red turn maneuver, their flagship will be approximately abeam the blue, and after the turn all the red ones will suddenly overtake the blue ones.
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              Then redraw the schematics and display the position, and do not fill in the Internet hack

              What else? Can wipe the ass, or there, bib tie up? Speak, feel free to be here to serve you. soldier
              ZY For the umpteenth time, you, not being able to argue on the merits, begin to cry on questions that are irrelevant to the essence of the matter. On graph paper he did not draw, it must be the same! laughing
              1. +2
                6 June 2019 18: 23
                not being able to object essentially


                I object to the merits. Your pictures are rubbish and trash that are not a graphic solution to the problem. But even in such a form, it follows from them that the positions of the matelots do not coincide with your conclusions.

                Next:

                1.You reported false information that the British maneuvers irrefutably proved the sufficiency of +2 knots for crossing under any circumstances. Therefore, your conclusions on its basis are false.

                2. You have not been able to cope with the solution of the problem about two circles for a month. What a shame)

                3. You have provided reliable information about the impossibility of determining the speed and distance to an adjacent column with high accuracy. Therefore, your conclusions on its basis are false.

                4. You do not know the rules for safe maneuvering of ships and generally the basics of maneuvering ships. Therefore, you carry amazing things about rebuilding, in which you do not understand anything.

                Need more?
                1. 0
                  7 June 2019 08: 44
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  But even in this form it follows from them that the positions of matelots do not coincide with your conclusions.

                  Coincide absolutely what timekeeping demonstrates. An example I gave above
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  You reported inaccurate information that the British maneuvers irrefutably proved about the sufficiency of the + 2 node for crossing under any circumstances.

                  And according to the results of the analysis given in the article, it turns out that the data are quite reliable.
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  You have been failing for a month to solve a problem about two circles. What a shame)

                  Not only coped, but also proved that the less high-speed squadron can not take positions for maneuvering in two circles.
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  You have provided unreliable information about the impossibility of determining the speed and distance to the adjacent column with high accuracy. Therefore, your conclusions on its basis are false.

                  This is generally bullshit unrelated to this article
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  You do not know the rules for safe maneuvering of ships and generally the basics of maneuvering ships.

                  I know the rules that guided the ships of those times. And modern rules are very different from them, which they do not understand, for example, Undecim
                  Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                  Need more?

                  Given that in your stream of consciousness you could not refute a single conclusion in the article - of course. Although I already firmly know that I will not hear anything interesting from you.
  17. 0
    5 June 2019 20: 44
    they try to put this dash for us, our four of the same type of new br are rebuilt to the front and increase speed by attacking the head ships of an option but everything rests on the unwillingness of the Christmas to command and control the squadron, these are the mediocrity sat under the spitz
    1. 0
      10 June 2019 23: 27
      Quote: rayruav
      they try to put this dash for us, our four of the same type of new br are rebuilt to the front and increase speed by attacking the head ships of an option but everything rests on the unwillingness of the Christmas to command and control the squadron, these are the mediocrity sat under the spitz

      Have you read Novikov-Priboy? Each battalion can control the squadron?
  18. +1
    5 June 2019 21: 43
    If all the options for maneuvering for the blue AFTER the start of the red maneuver are disastrous, then why shouldn't the blue introduce the factor of "chaos" for the red in advance? Do not go stupidly and straight in a column to the slaughter, but it is fun and periodically to change course from left to right - like an anti-submarine zigzag? It will become much more difficult for red to calculate their turns, and each new maneuver needs to be done only after the end of the previous one (and the more ships, the longer to wait), and this will give time for blue or for a rapprochement without a "dash" and the beginning of the battle is POSSIBLE in columns, and possibly in a heap, or for removal. And you can also send destroyers closer to the red ones at the very beginning and launch a dozen torpedoes towards - there will be no time for the "sticks")))))
    1. 0
      6 June 2019 07: 23
      Quote: Crimea26
      Do not go stupidly and straight column to the slaughter, and fun and periodically change the course left-right-type anti-submarine zigzag?

      In this case, the crossing will be set up much faster, as the speed of the squadron matters - you have reduced it with your course changes.
      1. +3
        6 June 2019 13: 19
        As you tried to prove in the article - the speed of the blue does not matter at all - defeat in all cases. However, in my case, the speed of the blue does not change (they do not break sharp turns), only the speed of approaching the "red" has decreased - this is why the crossing will not be delivered faster. But the blue had time to react to the red maneuver, and the red began to ache in their brains trying to calculate their maneuver for the "dash" - although it still won't work - there are too many random variables. And any turn "in the wrong direction" threatens either a loss of time for crossing, or a dangerous rapprochement with the "blues" in the forehead. In addition, with my zagulins, I do not let go of my "tail" and I can "support" it if that. Yes, during maneuvering, several "blue" ships from the convoy can come under concentrated fire from several (only a few) "red" ones on turns - but in this case, the "blue" ship will not be too lonely (neighbors will walk close and close), such contact will be short-term and non-critical, and blue will have a maneuver to escape.
  19. +1
    5 June 2019 23: 13
    Our friend, Andrey from Chelyabinsk, is again in his repertoire. There are as many as 3863 words in the article and all "about nothing"! It is easy to see that Andrei failed to finally substantiate any of his stated theses. Despite the abundance of numbers, letters and diagrams, all the options listed by the author have already been refuted by commentators, from "Anzar" to "Andrey Shevelev". The author's article itself is a classic example of the purest sophistry.

    Sophism - Complicated reasoning, sometimes deliberately confused in order to show mental superiority or to mislead.

    Aristotle considered sophism to be “coaching,” not a scientific search for truth, and he compiled the first classification of sophism - sophistry tricks in On sophistic refutations, identifying 13 types of sophisms arising from ambiguities of two kinds: 6 related to speech, and 7 paralogisms , or incorrectly constructed reasoning. Aristotle called sophism “imaginary evidence”, in which the validity of the conclusion seems correct and owes a purely subjective impression caused by a lack of logical or semantic analysis. The persuasiveness at first glance of many sophisms, their “logic” is usually associated with a well-camouflaged mistake - semantic: due to the metaphor of speech, .. violating the unambiguity of thought and leading to a confusion of the meanings of terms, or logical: replacing the main idea (thesis) of the evidence, acceptance false premises for true, non-compliance with acceptable methods of reasoning


    Specifically for the text of the article and the author's schemes, I tend to agree with all the points of objection listed by the colleague "anzar" in his first comment. All the options offered by Andrey are unconvincing and cannot refute even the first obvious, which he also mentioned, countermeasures with a turn along the inner radius. The only threat that Andrey managed to find was an attack on the tail, it is not difficult to parry with a symmetrical attack on the opponent's tail. Or completely dropping the tail as with the Dogger Bank, for example.

    In general, I wish Andrey to use reliable historical materials more often and less often draw dubious schemes on his own knee.
    1. +2
      5 June 2019 23: 53
      "Achilles will never catch up with the turtle" wassat good
    2. +2
      6 June 2019 07: 24
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Despite the abundance of numbers, letters and diagrams, all the options listed by the author have already been refuted by commentators, from "Anzar" to "Andrey Shevelev".

      laughing good
      Shout louder, maybe someone will believe :))))) Especially Shmelev amused himself, having taken to count the dotted lines wassat
      Okay, I did not expect you to admit that you were wrong.
  20. +1
    6 June 2019 01: 26
    Quote: mt9
    No invented “suitcases” and other “furiosiks” invented by the author

    Old buddy, you're wrong.
    "Furoshiki" really existed, as the Japanese called English shells overloaded with shimosa.
    Why did the Japanese call them that? The word "furoshiki" in Japanese has several meanings. Means both a gift and the culture and craftsmanship of wrapping a valuable gift.
    It turns out a double meaning, since, on the one hand, remarkable skill was required to reload the projectile, on the other hand, in the Japanese, as in the Russian fleet, it was customary to call shells sent to the enemy "gifts" or "gifts".

    Quote: mt9
    NORMAL (and not nominal) battleship drowned and even put out of action was IMPOSSIBLE

    Not convinced, consider the facts.
    2) Let us recall "Tsarevich", who received about fifteen 12 '' high explosive shells.

    The armor belt was not damaged, the main and medium caliber artillery, too. However, the battleship failed and was not suitable for the continuation of the battle.
    But the armored cruiser "Warrior", received during the Battle of Jutland at least fifteen 280-mm armor-piercing shells. However, the ship was not only not sunk, it did not even lose speed.
    1. +1
      6 June 2019 21: 10
      Did the Japanese reload British shells? Shells originally equipped with black powder?
      Or lidditom? Twelve inch shells? And the bulk density of black powder and liddit are known?
      Then where are such differences in the mass of explosives? The Japanese increased the internal volume of shells? Did they possess such technology? Did the mass of shells change? Is external ballistics? And the shooting tables required adjustments.
      Andrei mentioned alternatives. But, with real alternatives, the scope is different.
      Even the very existence of the character Shimos is questioned.
      Did this seem possible?
      But, according to many researchers, the medieval history of Japan is the history of medieval England, inscribed in the local flavor. Is it any wonder that, for example, the history of the Ottoman Empire, brilliantly shown in the TV series "The Magnificent Century", the essence of the history of Ivan the Terrible, transferred on paper, to another place.
      And William, our Shakespeare? There are several versions of various authorships. And all, in their own way, are reasoned.
      And, real our everything. A.S. Pushkin? Managed to "navoyat" so much, before his death at a fairly young age. It's good that in this case, there is only one version. Literary project, by Fet, Tyutchev, Ershov.
  21. +4
    6 June 2019 03: 15
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    13 nodes gave ... would any decent caperang and kautorang too

    Colleague, it is impossible to agree with this. We read Russian officialdom:

    And now we recall that the battleship commander, captain of the 1 rank N. M. Bukhvostov, not only did not hasten to increase the course to thirteen knots, on the contrary, he almost per node stroke reduced.
    It is possible that your humble servant is mistaken, so if you have data showing that after the "Prince Suvorov" went out of action the Russian squadron breathed a sigh of relief and increased its speed, I will gladly familiarize myself with them.
    The paradox is that the squadron led by Rozhdestvensky went faster than later headed by the captain of the 1 rank N. M. Bukhvostov and the captain of the 1 rank P. I. Serebryannikov of the 1 m.
    Do not blame yourself for criticism and do not consider it a moralizing one, but a biased attitude towards Zinovy ​​Petrovich prevents you from objectively perceiving reality.
    Since no one began to increase the move, then there were good reasons. Rozhestvensky took them into account, they did not begin to be ignored by those who led the squadron after him.
    1. +1
      6 June 2019 09: 41
      Good morning, dear colleague! Your comments are always welcome.

      Do not blame yourself for criticism and do not consider it a moralizing one, but a biased attitude towards Zinovy ​​Petrovich prevents you from objectively perceiving reality.


      Well, why is it so. They gave me Campbell's article about accuracy in the Tsushima battle (I had not seen it before), but I admitted with a number of reservations that I was unfair to the accuracy of 2 TOE. Although he has so many assumptions in it that even A&C smokes nervously, but, to be honest, the position with "it is extremely doubtful that 2 TOE could shoot well" I changed to "under a number of assumptions, it can be argued that 2 TOE shows relative accuracy much better than 1 TOE, although these assumptions are very bold, so we can talk about comparable relative accuracy. "

      Although yes, I agree, I was initially extremely negative towards him. Score 12: 0 in favor of the Japanese. It would be different, there would not be such an initial negative.

      Since no one began to increase the move, then there were good reasons. Rozhdestvensky took them into account ...


      ZPR and his confidants did not indicate them during the investigation, as I understand it. Also, during the investigation, no one else indicated them. Purely theoretically, ZPR and his entourage were "breaking up". Therefore, I have no doubt that if they had such reasons, they would have expressed them.

      they were not ignored by those who led the squadron after him


      Not the fact that the reasons were the same. Bukhvostov (well, or the one who was in the wheelhouse of "Alexander III") could not ignore the severe damage to the nose of "Alexander III", as I understand it. It is possible that for him an increase in speed from 10 to 14 knots meant a guaranteed loss of control over flooding, for example.

      Shl. I really look forward to a link to the real speed of ships at Tsushima. Even if I don’t completely agree, as to the load of "Eagle", I will analyze it with pleasure and take it into account.
      1. +4
        6 June 2019 10: 44
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        with a number of assumptions, it can be argued that 2 TOE shows relative accuracy much better than 1 TOE, although these assumptions are very bold, therefore we can speak of comparable relative accuracy

        34-35 hits 1TOE vs 230 2TOE. 24 documented by the Japanese on the time of hits only during the first 15 minutes of the 2TOE battle, while it is possible that there were more hits if there were hits, the time of which the Japanese did not fix.
        "Comparable Accuracy" yeah. And, most importantly, the impartiality of the analysis :))))))))
        1. 0
          6 June 2019 11: 56
          "Comparable Accuracy" yeah.


          Comparability is measured by proportion. This is also taught at school. I compose the proportion through the number of hits of the Japanese in 1 TOE and 2TOE, as this takes into account the distance and other shooting conditions. The Japanese fired 5 times as accurate as 1 TOE. Thus, the discussion is subject to how many times the Japanese erased metche 2 TOE.
          1. +3
            6 June 2019 13: 33
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            Thus, the discussion is subject to how many times the Japanese erased the 2 TOE.

            Colleague, with all due respect, you sometimes give out something like that, at least stop falling ... and I'm not talking about a typo now.
            1. -2
              6 June 2019 18: 55
              Thus, the discussion is subject to how many times the Japanese erased the 2 TOE.


              Yes sir. If the Japanese received on 28.07 hits in the amount of 35 they themselves hit 150 times, then they shot with a factor of 4,3 to 1 against the first TOE.

              Under Tsushima, the Japanese (the first two detachments) received 47 hits with heavy shells and 53 reliable hits with 120-152 mm shells + up to a dozen possible hits with 120-152 mm shells.
              The Eagle received 16 heavy rounds and 39 rounds of 152 mm at Campbell, and got off with quite moderate damage. If we assume that each of the dead battleships received a double portion in comparison with the "Eagle" ("Suvorov" could not help but receive much more than 2 times, and "Oslyaba" could have had the same amount, here is just an estimate) plus one more norm "Eagle" was divided into the rest, then conditionally we get: about 160 heavy shells and 390 shells of 152 mm hit the Russian battleships. So the Japanese were shooting with a factor of 5,2 to 1 against the second TOE.
              Conclusion: relative to the Japanese, the firing rate of 1 TOE was better.

              Yes, I understand the enormity of the assumptions in my reasoning, so, for example, the Japanese could have hit not 550 times under Tsushima, but 350 times, well, or 850 times) Yes, the method is absolutely crooked. But this reasoning is not fick, not more crooked than what I read in "The Myths of Tsushima" and just a standard of proof and logic in comparison with the pictures in this article.

              And finally, the most important. The result of the daytime battle at Shantung is incomparably better than that at Tsushima. And everything else is speculation.
          2. +2
            6 June 2019 13: 34
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            Comparability is measured by proportion. This is also taught in school. The proportion I make up through the number of hits of the Japanese in 1 TOE and 2TOE

            Considering that the number of hits in Suvorov, Alexander and Borodino is completely unknown, the value of your "proportion" can hardly be underestimated. So sit down, deuce.
            1. 0
              6 June 2019 19: 02
              Given the fact that the number of hits in Suvorov, Alexander and Borodino is completely unknown


              All your arguments in "Myths of Tsushima" about the quality of fire of the Russian artillerymen should be assessed using the same method. Yes since the quality of the shooting is always relative smile
    2. +2
      6 June 2019 10: 24
      ... on the contrary, he almost reduced the stroke by a knot.
      The paradox is that the squadron led by Rozhdestvensky went faster than later headed by the captain of the 1st rank N.M. Bukhvostov and ...

      They probably spoke up about the beginning of the battle. And by that time Togo is already far ahead ... There is no paradox if you have conceived (already) under the tail of a yap. turn lines.
      Rozhdestvensky took them into account, they did not begin to be ignored by those who led the squadron

      The cases are still different. And the transports (like cruisers) still lagged behind and fought on their own.
    3. +1
      6 June 2019 20: 48
      If, as a weighty argument, accept the clinical underestimation of the role of the speed factor, then yes, this is a weighty argument.
    4. +2
      6 June 2019 23: 14
      Quote: Comrade
      Since no one began to increase the move, then there were good reasons.

      And these grounds are well known, the order of ZPR - speed of 9 knots. Nobody Bukhvostov authorized the command of the squadron, and therefore he could not give such an order. But Dobrotvorsky, considering himself the commander of a separate detachment, pressed the pedal to the floor without hesitation. And no one managed to deliver any crossing-T to his cruisers. They didn’t even succeed in drowning in that battle. Despite the huge numerical advantage of the Japanese in cruisers.

      The battle of the cruisers is a clear example of the great benefits of high speed and vigorous maneuvering in battle.
  22. 0
    6 June 2019 07: 30
    Quote: mmaxx
    With one screw there is a moment turning the ship. This is natural. When two, always made the screws of the opposite rotation to avoid this. Fortunately, there is no difference to steam engines which way to turn. Therefore, the reason is not the screws. A body assembly. They were curves - asymmetrical. Everything influenced. Even one-sided heating of the hull by the sun on the slipway.

    I agree that with two screws (in theory) the influence of the moments from them should be compensated. But even now, ships are being built imperfectly symmetrical (and not only in China). The difference in the location of the screw shaft a few centimeters from the calculated one gives different points.
  23. +4
    6 June 2019 11: 26
    Quote: Comrade
    And here is the armored cruiser "Warrior", which received at least fifteen 280-mm armor-piercing shells during the Battle of Jutland. Nevertheless, the ship was not only not sunk, it did not even lose speed.

    He did not lose a move in the first part of the battle, receiving TWO of 280, and after 15 he actually drowned, not immediately, at night, but he drowned
  24. +6
    6 June 2019 20: 45
    With all due respect to Andrei, and the amount of work done by him, he does not convince.
    Arguing that an advantage of 2 knots gives an indisputable tactical advantage, the author relies on the teachings of the English fleet in his reasoning. Only. But, the French conducted similar exercises.
    Here, in the comments, the teachings of 1903 are mentioned. In the comments on the previous article, I referred to the great maneuvers of 1910. The first - before the REV, the second - after it, when most of the information should have been available. But, the results of both exercises are unequivocal: two or three nodes do not give advantages, the advantage begins with 6-8 nodes.
    The most difficult subject of historical faculties is historiography. It is rare that one of the students passes this discipline the first or second time. The peculiarity of this discipline is that it is necessary to theoretically own ALL points of view on the topic, without giving preference to any.
    Perhaps the British during the exercises and were able to use the advantage of 2 knots. But, neither the French during the exercises, nor the Japanese during the wars, could.
    The advantage of 2 knots is practically realized, I would compare it with a "victory by points". As a rule, such a victory is achieved only when one of the opponents of equal strength makes more blunders. The advantage of 6-8 knots, realized in practice, is "win by clear advantage".
  25. +2
    7 June 2019 00: 50
    Hello, colleague.
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    They gave me Campbell's article on accuracy in the Tsushima battle. The position with "it is extremely doubtful that 2 TOEs could shoot well" I changed to "under a number of assumptions, it can be argued that 2 TOEs show relative accuracy much better than 1 TOE, although these assumptions are very bold, therefore we can talk about comparable relative accuracy."

    Let's deal.
    To compare the accuracy of the Pacific and Baltic firing, consider the battle of 27 on January 1904 (Port Arthurians fired from 30 to 42 minutes) and the interval from 13: 47: 40 to 14: 05, that is, about seventeen minutes of the first phase of the Tsushima battle on May 14 1905
    At 11:08 "Petropavlovsk" opened fire from 12 "and 6" bow guns from a distance 32,4 cab. At 11:23 a.m. "Petropavlovsk" turned left and opened fire with its starboard side. Here, moving on counter courses, the enemy lines approached the shortest distance in the entire battle of 24,3 cab.
    According to Russian data, at 13:49, when only Mikasa and Shikishima from the Japanese squadron managed to take a new course, a sighting shot was fired from the left bow 32 "Suvorov turret from a distance of 6 cabs. The Japanese turn lasted 15 minutes. , from 14:05 to 14:20.
    In 13: 52 "Mikasa" from a distance of 35 cab launched the first shell on "Suvorov". The ships going behind, laying down on a new course, also successively opened fire on the enemy. The distance between the opponents decreased, amounting to 14: 12 about 29,7 cab, then increasing to 14: 15 to 31,3 cab.
    So, the Port Arthur fought at a distance 4 500-6 000 meters, while tsushimsy the first quarter of an hour from 5 500 to 6 500 meters.
    The squadron of O. V. Stark fired 41 12 ", 24 10" and 680 6 "shells. three 12" shell, two shells of 10 "-12" caliber, one 10 "and eight 6" shells.
    According to Pakenham's report in the article “The Battle of Tsushima” of Warship International, 1978, No. 5-8

    within fifteen minutes, from 14: 10 to 14: 25, Mikasa hit five 12 " and fourteen 6 "shells. The above Japanese time corresponds to Russian time 13: 50-14: 05. Of the five main-caliber shells that hit the Japanese flagship in this quarter of an hour, we have four, indicating the time when the shell hit the target: 13:50 ; 13:54; 14:00; 14:05 From the sighting shot with a medium caliber to the first hit with the main caliber on the Mikasa, it took, according to the Japanese, a little over two minutes or so.
    We have no data on the number of 12 "shells fired by the head battleships in the first 15 minutes of the battle, but we, pushing off from the percentage of hits achieved by the Stark squadron for guns 10" -12 "(41 + 24 = 65; six hits, the percentage of hits - 9,23 , 12%), we can determine how many shells of the main caliber had to be fired by three or four battleships of the "Borodino" type, in order to hit with five 100 ", to achieve the same accuracy? 9,23 / 5 x 54 = XNUMX shells.
    It turns out, on average, 18 shells in fifteen minutes from each of the three head battleships that had a real opportunity to get into the Mikasa, or 13 shells from each of the four Borodino types. Since the real rate of fire of the main caliber guns in the Russian-Japanese battles on both sides was very different from the range, the armadillos could hardly have released ten main caliber shells in 15 minutes. Especially considering the fact that the "Eagle", for example, during the whole battle released only fifty.
    "Sevastopol" in battle on January 27, 1904 in 30-40 minutes fired 10 12 "shells," Poltava "12 12" shells and "Petropavlovsk" - 19 12 "shells.
    You can also refer to the consumption of shells of the Port Arthur squadron in the first phase of the battle at Cape Shantung. In the first phase of the battle "Retvizan", for example, from the moment of opening fire (12: 15-12: 20) to 15:00, fired 165 42 "shells within 12 minutes.
    The data on the specific guns of the battleships of the 1st Combat Detachment are also very indicative in this respect. On "Mikasa" the right cannon of the bow 12 "barbet by 17:44 (~ four hours) managed to fire 28 shots. On" Shikishima "the right gun of the bow 12" barbet by 15:55 (~ two hours) managed to fire 11 shots.
    Based on the above data on the consumption of shells of the main caliber, it can be argued that at the beginning of the battle the head battleships of the 2 Pacific Squadron, firing fewer shells per unit time than their colleagues from the First Pacific Squadron, achieved more hits.
    1. +1
      7 June 2019 11: 07
      According to Russian data ... from a distance 32 cab a sighting shot was fired from the left bow 6 "Suvorov turret.

      Dear Comrade, is that true? Met (circuit) with 38 and 35 cab. 32kab for the first time. And that shot went down quite accurately, it’s not a mistake of long-range detonators.
      The turn of the Japanese lasted 15 minutes, from 14:05 to 14:20. At 13:52 "Mikasa" .....

      Is this already Japanese time? And then again, Russian ...
      barely could armadillos release in ten minutes even ten shells of the main caliber

      This is unlikely because so fallen rate of fire, but probably because of the heading angle to the target only bow towers could shoot?
  26. +3
    7 June 2019 01: 59
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    Bukhvostov (well, or the one who was in the wheelhouse of "Alexander III") could not ignore the severe damage to the nose of "Alexander III", as I understand it

    Firstly, "Poltava" and "Retvizan" on July 28, 1904 had more serious injuries, but no one there hypothetical
    guaranteed loss of flood control

    was not afraid and did not reduce the move. Secondly, the damage in the nose of "Emperor Alexander III" appeared much later, so this version does not work for two reasons.
    And then, what about Borodino? After all, there were no injuries in the nose, but captain 1st rank P.I.Serebryannikov 1st for some reason did not increase the move.
    To say that the two commanders of the two armadillos were simply, following Rozhestvensky, stupid, would be a great simplification.
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    I really look forward to links to the real speed of ships under Tsushima.

    Sorry, I can’t leave the link, it was more than seven years ago, I don’t really remember the topic.
    Later, I'll post it here, when it is appropriate.

    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    The Japanese shot at 5 times better than 1 TOE.

    You are mistaken.
    In the battle of Port Arthur, the Japanese released 1 685 shells of caliber from 3 "to 12", Russian 2 215 shells of caliber from 47 mm to 12 ". Hits with identification of caliber were recorded on Japanese ships 37, and on Russians - 25 (shells of unknown caliber were taken out of the count). In percentage terms, it looks like this: 1,129 % in Russian and 2,196 % of the Japanese.
    Details.
    Russians: 12" - 7,32%; 10 "-12" - 3,07%; 10" - 4,17%.
    Japanese: 12" –10,13%.

    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    Assuming that each of the dead battleships received a double portion in comparison with the "Eagle" ("Suvorov" could not help but receive much more than 2 times, and "Oslyaba" could have had the same amount, here is just an estimate)

    1) "Prince Suvorov" received less than 12 "shells than" Eagle ".
    2) "Oslyabya" received three 12 '' shell, and hit time is known from Japanese sources.

    My advice to you, colleague, do not look for any in this field "patterns"and do not print any"proportions", this is a thankless job, since in fact everything is decided by the distribution of hits.
    Here are two battleships of the same type, "Peresvet" and "Oslyabya". The first survived eleven hits 12 '' shells, and the second and of three Enough. And hated by you Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky has nothing to do with it.

    Now a couple of abstract examples in support of the thesis of the crucial importance of the distribution of hits.
    a) Battle cruiser "Indefatigable" in the Battle of Jutland, five hits by caliber shells 280 mm.
    b) The squadron battleship Eustathius in the battle at Cape Sarych, five direct hits with shells of caliber 280 mm.
    As you can see, the number of hits is the same, the caliber of the missiles hit is the same, but the fate of the ships is different.
    c) Battle cruiser "Lion", received during the battle from the Dogger Bank twelve shells 280-305 mm (two and a half times more than the poor fellow "Indefatigable"), but a survivor. So much for the proportion ..
    1. +1
      7 June 2019 08: 48
      Good morning! I’m very glad to your comment, I’ll figure it out in detail, while I answer offhand a couple of thoughts:

      In the battle on July 28.07.1904, 150, the Japanese made nearly 35 hits, and the Russians reached about XNUMX hits
      At the same time, the Japanese fired, for example, 874, and the Russians - 568 (as I understand it)
      that is, the Japanese fired one and a half times faster
      The quality of shooting is a combination of accuracy and speed of shooting, the fact that the Japanese fired one and a half times faster (approximately) is not an argument for the Russians, it is also included in the quality of shooting
      To say that the nominal rate of fire of Japanese guns is higher and therefore they didn’t shoot more often - the argument is not very strong, since, IMHO, no one was even close to the nominal fire performance
      Therefore, on July 28.07.1904, 5, the Japanese were shooting XNUMX times better (it is better to say "better" than "more accurate", this is more correct)

      As for the number of hits in Russian battleships.
      You, unfortunately, operate on fixed hits, so there are really more of them for any - the question is how much
      "Eagle" did not lead the columns of battleships and was not a priority target for "crossing", therefore it is presumed that it got much less than any of the former head
      Campbell in his article indicated that the nature of the death of Russian armored carriers could to be the result of a small number of Japanese "Lakishot", however, he did not indicate where all the Japanese shells went then and why they only shot at the "Eagle" accurately and without Lakishot, and all the others were unclear, but there were many Lakishot)

      The statistics are such a thing that Lakichot in a battle of 2 ships is unpredictable, and in a battle of 24 ships is a consequence of the overall quality of shooting and obeys statistical laws due to "large numbers"

      Continue in the evening)
      1. 0
        8 June 2019 01: 08
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        In the 28.07.1904 battle, the Japanese achieved almost 150 hits, and the Russians until about 35 hits. At the same time, the Japanese fired, for example, 874, and the Russians - 568 (as I understand it)

        Here is a colleague, a couple of links to my opuses seven years ago. Morally, they are outdated, but in general there is something to read.
        http://alternathistory.com/k-voprosu-o-metkosti-strelby-v-russko-yaponskuyu-vojnu-chast-iii/
        http://alternathistory.com/k-voprosu-o-metkosti-strelby-v-russko-yaponskuyu-vojnu-chast-iv/
        1. 0
          8 June 2019 09: 36
          thank you very much, I read it with pleasure, I’m very glad that our source data completely coincided with you,
          the only difference is that for 28.07 I calculated the quality of shooting based on
          -total hits
          one and a half speed of the Japanese
          that's why I got a figure of about 5,2 to 1 (that is, the rate of fire increases my quality of fire)
        2. 0
          8 June 2019 19: 04
          Now about the lacquers.

          Regarding the fight on 28.07 - the maximum in "Tsarevich", but it followed from the logic of the fight.

          A skirmish at Port Arthur - not a single one.

          Fight at Ulsan - theoretically only damage to the Rurik's rudder can be attributed to them, but something very bad should have happened to him, given the weakness of its booking.

          In total, for two long and persistent squadron battles, only a couple of very successful hits that stemmed from the logic of the process, therefore not entirely laconic.

          What do we have under Tsushima?

          According to your point of view, the Lakishotes decided their fate
          - "Oslyabya",
          - "Alexander III",
          + super lachot at Borodino
          Not too much?

          10 shots give a random result.
          1000 shots give a natural result.
          This is the law of large and small numbers in a statistical sample.

          IMHO, statistically, lakishot is formed by the accumulation of attempts. That is, according to the experience of the disassembled battles (except for Tsushima), a very successful hit is a statistical regularity for a couple of dozen hits of heavy shells.
          Of course, "Invincible" or "Blucher" will get lacichot much easier than "Lutzov" (this is about comparing the types of ships).

          So:
          The Russians at Tsushima hit 47 times with heavy shells - they got very successful hits on Fuji and Asama. The Japanese on 28.07 and 01.08 also fully deserved those in terms of the total number of attempts. The Germans honestly deserved their lacichots with 122 hits at Jutland. The British also deserved it, but the Germans turned out to be painfully tenacious.
          Attention is the question: why exactly under Tsushima the statistics stop working and the Lakishots pour in from the Japanese like miracles sent from the sky, and not as a logical result of dozens of heavy shells entering Russian battleships?
          1. +1
            9 June 2019 01: 40
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            why is it during Tsushima that statistics stop working and the Lakishots pour in from the Japanese like miracles sent from the sky, and not as a natural result of dozens of heavy shells hit Russian armadillos?

            And who told you that
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            Lakishota decided fate
            - "Alexander III",
            - "Borodino"

            There are more realistic versions explaining their death.
            1. -1
              9 June 2019 12: 13
              And who told you that
              Quote: Andrei Shmelev
              Lakishota decided fate
              - "Alexander III",
              - "Borodino"
              There are more realistic versions explaining their death.


              Borodino - Campbell:
              "When Fuji reached the turning point, his last 12 "shell made the sensation of the day"... This is how Pekinham described the event: “The shell hit the upper part (of the hull) of the Borodino near the front side turret and exploded; a giant column of smoke, the bottom of which glowed from the explosion and fire in the stern, shot up to the top of the pipes. steam poured out, and after two or three minutes the entire ship, from foremast to stern, was enveloped in swirling spirals of smoke and steam, brightly illuminated by frequent high tongues of flame. and that the days of the ship's life were numbered, but no one realized how close the end was. Although sudden, it came unnoticed. In front of all observers, the unfortunate ship disappeared, and its disappearance was marked only by a rumble, no louder than the explosions of its own shells , and a strong increase in the size of the thick cloud that enveloped the space that the ship occupied.Although the wind quickly dispersed this cloud, it is doubtful that anyone in the Japanese fleet observed the momentdrowning, because for several minutes nothing but the outline of its stem was visible. " It seems obvious that the last hit led to the explosion of the cellar and the death of Borodino. There are some discrepancies in various reports regarding the exact time of his death, however, the probable time of this can be considered 19.10 ".

              "Alexander III" - Campbell:
              "Given this, it is easy to see how a limited number of 12 "shells hitting the bow waterline could result in to overturning "Alexander". Therefore, in the case of "Alexander" it is not at all required to assume that the number of hits by large shells received by him exceeds that for "Eagle". Two 12 "high-explosive shells hit nearly side by side can result in a hole in the unarmored side, described as" 20 feet across. "

              "Oslyabya" - Campbell:
              According to the testimony of the survivors, the shell hitting the bow at about 1358 led to the flooding of the bow turret compartment, the bow 6 "shell cellar, the bow torpedo tube compartment and the dynamo room. In the stormy sea, it was impossible to stop the water flow. armor, presumably - 5 "upper belt, passed into the 10th coal pit and caused the cellar to flood. As a result these and other hits soon a roll

              Formally, the lakishot on the licishot and the lakishot drives)

              But he writes:

              "It seems highly likely that during the combat phase described above, "Alexander" received a lot of damagewhich later turned out to be fatal. At 15.05, the Izumo noted that its target, which was probably the Alexander, had a significant roll to the left side, and by 15.20 it was clear that he was no longer leading the Russian column "... Eyewitnesses from other Russian ships pointed out that his nasal tip was almost destroyed"

              "The end of Borodino was not far off. At 18.44, Mikasa noted that Borodino engulfed in a strong fire and lost the mainmast, and at 18.58, when the distance was equal to 45 cab., two 12 "shells from the Sikishima were hit. Packenham reported that the flame that escaped from his stern battery jumped up at least 30 feet and immediately swept across the entire width of the ship, quickly spreading into the bow. "

              And if you get a grasp, we see
              "Suvorov" with a completely broken side in a part uncovered by a belt,
              completely broken nose of "Alexander III", coupled with many other holes in the hull, "Borodino", which was a priority target of the Japanese for a long time, but nothing is said about damage to which until half past six in the evening, but which are presumed
              + "Oslyabya", in respect of which it is modestly written as a result of these and other hits

              And we also have the "Eagle", which was not really damaged in fact. Which makes it extremely logical to suggest doubling his damage rate for each sunken battleship on average.
              Of course, this assumption, however, does not just contradict the picture of the battle and any of its descriptions, but it fits very logically into them.
              In contrast to the assumption that any of the battleships had enough damage rate "Eagle", which is technically possible, however, completely unreliable statistically
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. 0
                  9 June 2019 13: 04
                  For example, Nikolai’s 12-inch guns had the ballistics of field howitzers. And for naval combat, such guns were not suitable at all. Its 9 inch guns were very limited for naval combat.


                  Here it is, of course, a plus. But "Nicholas I" seemed to shoot the best of them that day)

                  Would there be instead of the Japanese ... British, from 1 and 2 TOE there would be nothing left in a few hours.


                  I’ll read your sentence like this) Tady + 100500) Russia, along with Britain, was preparing to loot for decades

                  Shl.
                  Tsushima's pain still cuts the heart of every normal patriot, because Russia had the THIRD battle fleet in the world


                  If you were in 1 TOE "Alexander", "Sisoy" and "Oslyabya" - they could have dismissed
                  1. The comment was deleted.
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                    1. 0
                      9 June 2019 22: 41
                      Quote: shm0
                      Britain, France, USA, Germany, Italy, Japan. Already six countries.
                      Where did "the world's third fleet" come from?

                      Kolya, your trolling (and delirium at the same time) has already gotten for many years.
              2. +1
                9 June 2019 21: 30
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                - campbell

                Read and forget. He even didn’t have the correct shells for May 14, which is hard to blame for the guy, because he only worked with English reports written by observers who did not have access, unlike us who are now interested in the topic, to Japanese secret documents.
                Let’s say, here is one of the statements that cut eyes.
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                A shell that pierced the side armor, presumably - 5 "upper belt

                In total, the Japanese fired 32 shells in the Battle of Tsushima, which, in theory, could have done this (see a fragment of the consolidated statement of ammunition consumption by the United Fleet for two days). All the rest were "commons" that exploded from the slightest obstacle, and such shells were out of the question to penetrate 5 "armor.

                But all Japanese armor-piercing 12 '' were not fired from the battleship, which inflicted fatal damage to the Oslyabe with three hits.
                Well, further down the "Campbell's list".
                1. 0
                  9 June 2019 21: 47
                  Read and forget.


                  can you share the links? - to be honest, I haven't been so interested for a long time, I really want to understand the topic. I am not super strong in the sources on the RYA, therefore I built my conclusions on the logic of the type: we look at the damage of the "Tsesarevich", "Peresvet", "Eagle", etc. to sink or at least completely disable
                  1. +1
                    9 June 2019 22: 40
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    can you share the links?

                    Yes, there are no links where the ultimate truth is stated.
                    Here it is: collecting grain information, you don’t stop comparing what you’ve found with what is already known, and then you begin to make assumptions that do not conflict with common sense and irrefutable facts.
                    Here we read at Pekingham
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    at 18.58, when the distance was 45 cab., the hit of two 12 "shells from the" Sikishima "was recorded.

                    And according to the report of the commander of the ship, on May 14 "Shikishima" released only 74 (70 high-explosive, 4 armor-piercing) shells of 12 "caliber. But this is for all daytherefore, the fire from the main caliber guns was slow, so where could two simultaneously hit shells come from?
                    In the "Description of military operations at sea" it is said about two big explosions on "Borodino", but due to the above, these could not be explosions of two shells hitting simultaneously from "Shikishima".
                    If we take these two explosions for granted, we begin to think, what could explode with such force there? Packinham offered his version, but it does not stand up to the statistics of shell consumption.
                    By the way, on the Internet there is an interesting study on the shooting of Togo battleships, conducted by a Japanese enthusiast. There it was proved that the Japanese battleships did not conduct such a hurricane fire as described in some sources, but one shot was always fired from one battleship, the other three guns of this ship and three other battleships were silent. That is, the fire was fired in turn, each time only one of the sixteen guns fired.
                    And here you can put forward other assumptions that there could explode with such force? After all, something exploded, it is a fact.
                    1. 0
                      9 June 2019 22: 49
                      By the way, on the Internet there is an interesting study on the shooting of Togo armadillos, conducted by a Japanese enthusiast.


                      it is amusing that we read about the practice of salvo with two guns from the tower not only here, but also with Kostenko, such a coincidence

                      didn’t fire like that


                      well, this is understandable, since, I think, visibility often did not allow it to be conducted at all, I think the period of hurricane fire ended soon after the Suvorov went out of action

                      where the ultimate truth is set forth


                      I will be grateful for any interesting, ready to analyze)
                      1. +1
                        9 June 2019 23: 50
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        it is amusing that we read about the practice of salvo with two guns from the tower not only here, but also with Kostenko, such a coincidence

                        There is one more coincidence - neither Campbell nor Kostenko at the battle personally not observed the shooting of Japanese armadillos, as well as the fall of their shells, not have seen.
                        At that time, it was difficult for many to imagine that the shooting results obtained by the Japanese in the Battle of Tsushima were achieved by the latter with a minimum consumption of 12 '' rounds.
                        So there appeared theories about almost machine-gun bursts with which Togo's battleships supposedly fire from main-caliber guns.
                        We look at the image of the stern barbet of the battleship "Shikishima". A battle at Cape Shantung, a shot was fired and it is clearly seen that the angle of ascent of the two guns is different.

                        Consequently, only one gun fired.
                        The photograph is famous, if you look at it again, you will see that while the "Shikishima" is shooting, the other three battleships are silent.
                        There are other similar images, where it can be seen that only one of the two main battery guns fires, for example, "Fuji" in the battle of Port Arthur.
                      2. +1
                        10 June 2019 00: 09
                        So there appeared theories about almost machine-gun bursts with which Togo's battleships supposedly fire from main-caliber guns


                        well no, chur me

                        about the number of hits: if the RIF could hit 10% of heavy shells, who prevented the Japanese from getting in, say 20%? never contradicts Shantung and Ulsan

                        shooting quality increases exponentially while reducing the distance in arithmetic, that is, roughly speaking, 5% of hits from a distance of 35 cable will easily outgrow 25% from a distance of 20 cable and almost 100% from a distance of 5 cable and at a distance 60 cable dry to the size of the nose gulkin

                        neither Campbell nor Kostenko


                        Campbell quotes Packingham.
                        Kostenko, I agree, a special conversation.
                        But I do not see any reason to deny the possibility of volley fire from the tower under Tsushima.
                      3. 0
                        10 June 2019 00: 22
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        Campbell quotes Packingham.

                        Beijing has no information that the armadillos fired with two-gun salvos, although a separate report is devoted specifically to the shooting of armadillos. This statement is entirely on Capbell's conscience, but he personally did not see the battle.
                        There were two explosions, so he suggested that these two shells hit simultaneously.
                        Now I looked at the report of the Englishman.
                        Japanese officers, according to Beijingham, saw a double flash, but they did not say that it was a hit by two shells. A flash, and that's it, not a word more.
                        Colleague, something else exploded there.
                      4. 0
                        10 June 2019 00: 23
                        Do you have a selection of reports by Pekingham - at least in English, read, translate?
        3. 0
          8 June 2019 22: 25
          I will try to finish my thought:

          likelihood of lachishote let it be like three times in a row to roll a six
          the probability of a simple hit with Tsushima let, how to throw out a specific number once, for example, a unity
          I believe that in the evening you will throw six six times in a row and that this can happen to you more than once
          but I won’t believe that having made a sufficient number of attempts for this, in the evening you will never throw a little one, moreover, I will need extremely serious evidence that you have not thrown this little one so many times
          therefore, from the point of view of statistics, the statement about the lacquits immediately in 3 battleships without a mass of related hits seems extremely dubious

          Now about "Eagle", as an example.
          As I understand it, can you correct it, this battleship was never in the focus of fire of the Japanese fleet, since it did not go head-first. It was storming, visibility was disgusting, and even smoke. "Eagle" snatched when these factors were favorable enough for him.

          Now about "Mikasa", as a simple example of the opposite.
          "Between 13.50 and 14.30 Mikasa received 6 12" and 19 6 "hits, but was practically unharmed. Of these shells, 5 12" and 14 6 "hits were received between 13.50 and 14.05". That is, the Russians achieved THIRD hits with six-inch shells in 15 minutes of combat, when the distance and observation conditions were the best for both sides. Statistically, it would be surprising if “Suvorov” from “Oslyabya” did not receive these six-inch hits during this moment of the order of a hundred for two, especially since “Oslyabya” was standing.
      2. 0
        8 June 2019 19: 03
        Good afternoon, one more time!

        Let's first "check our watches".

        Regarding the battle on July 28.07, everything is clear here, everything coincides with us.
        The firing efficiency of the Japanese EDB and BRKR was only about 5 times higher than the Russian EDB.

        The skirmish at Port Arthur - I’m taking your statistics on hits and shell costs, but I agree, however, neither you nor your colleagues wrote about the reason for Togo's withdrawal from the battle. Moreover, A&H called it inexplicable. I have one, far-fetched explanation - poor visibility against the shore. I do not insist at all, I will say thanks for the refutation, if that. The firing efficiency of the Japanese EDB and the Russian EDB is approximately equal.

        If we take the battle from Ulsan, then my questions are: canonically "Russia" received about 30-35 hits, "Thunderbolt" - a little less, however, Melnikov has a damage scheme, where "Thunderbolt" IMHO and more than 40 can be counted. There are schemes, as they say, of the British attache, where "Russia" and "Thunderbolt" each received more than 25 holes in the hull, not counting the defeats of pipes, masts, non-penetrations, etc. That is, somewhere over 70 of both can be counted. It is completely incomprehensible on "Rurik". But, roughly it turns out, we have 33-34 Russian hits in Kamimura's ballistic missiles and about 90-100 hits from them in return.
        That is, the firing efficiency of the Japanese DBKR was only about 2 times higher than the Russian.
    2. +2
      7 June 2019 11: 15
      To say that the two commanders of the two armadillos were simply, following Rozhestvensky, stupid, would be a great simplification.

      The key word here is ALL. If at the beginning of the battle the increase in speed made sense, then there wasn’t any more, and even Alexander 3, who planned the maneuver under the tail of the Japanese, still needed to be left behind (reducing speed)
    3. -1
      8 June 2019 19: 23
      Quote: Comrade
      Here are two battleships of the same type, "Peresvet" and "Oslyabya". The first survived eleven hits from 12 '' shells, and the second and three were enough. And Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky, hated by you, has nothing to do with it.

      This moment has already been sorted out three times .. None of the battleships with the main caliber 12 "fired at Oslyaba .. Stop lying already dear" Comrade "..
  27. +2
    7 June 2019 03: 49
    Here is a cool article! Explanatory marine textbook for stupid land naval commanders.
  28. +2
    7 June 2019 03: 53
    Quote: Jura 27
    In real maneuvers of Togo in Tsushima, at a Russian speed of 13 knots, the head "Suvorov" was already ahead of the Japanese flagship by 14-47.

    Colleague, please explain in detail and step by step in the following spirit:
    - at so many times Rozhdestvensky had such and such speed,
    - at so many times they began to increase speed,
    - to so many 13 bonds have been developed,
    - Rozhestvensky to 14: 47 distance increased (in comparison with what could be if we continued to go at the same speed) for so many miles because.

    If it does not bother you, indicate the time in Japanese. Thank.
    1. +2
      7 June 2019 16: 45
      Quote: Comrade
      Quote: Jura 27
      In real maneuvers of Togo in Tsushima, at a Russian speed of 13 knots, the head "Suvorov" was already ahead of the Japanese flagship by 14-47.

      Colleague, please explain in detail and step by step in the following spirit:
      - at so many times Rozhdestvensky had such and such speed,
      - at so many times they began to increase speed,
      - to so many 13 bonds have been developed,
      - Rozhestvensky to 14: 47 distance increased (in comparison with what could be if we continued to go at the same speed) for so many miles because.

      If it does not bother you, indicate the time in Japanese. Thank.

      I already wrote all the answers in the first three comments (with the pic. The middle one).
      But for you, it's not difficult for me to write more: the beginning of the 13-nodal passage of the Russians at 2-05 (Japanese time is everywhere); then we multiply the above speed by 42 minutes and postpone the distance according to the real Russian rate, getting the Suvorov's location at 2-47 (marked in the red box). The difference between the last point and the real point on the map at the same time (2-47) is the additional path traveled by increasing the speed against the real one.
      1. +1
        8 June 2019 04: 11
        Quote: Jura 27
        I already wrote all the answers in the first three comments (with the pic. The middle one).
        But for you, it’s not difficult for me to write yet: the beginning of the 13-nodal move of Russians in 2-05 (time is everywhere jap.); then we multiply the above speed by time in 42min and put off the distance according to the real Russian course

        You presented an interesting idea, but you posted the outline of the entire Tsushima battle, it was a compressed site, and it’s hard to make out anything there.
        We take more detailed, detailed diagrams of the various stages of the Tsushima battle, attached by the commander of the battleship "Mikasa" to the combat report.

        I will start with comments on a fragment of the diagram (for convenience, everything that has nothing to do with the episode under discussion has been deleted).
        1) The initial speed of the 1-th armored squad 11 nodes,
        2) Increased speed to 13 nodes,
        3) The difference is 2 miles,
        4) 2 miles = 3 704 meters = 4050,74 yards,
        5) With the speed of 13 knots of the 1-th armored squad passed 42 minutes,
        6) In 42 minutes this will be 1,4 miles = 2 592,8 meters = 2 835,52 yards,

        Now we look at the diagram.
        Below the scale, the distance is indicated in yards. Above is a fragment of the scale (the length corresponds to 2 835 yards), the red line continues the trajectory of the 1-th armored squad in a straight line, although the squad actually moved in a different direction.
        As you can see, dear colleague, your statement that
        In real maneuvers of Togo in Tsushima, at a Russian speed of 13 knots, the head Suvorov was already ahead of the Japanese flagship by 14-47

        does not find confirmation on the diagram. Where the red line ends, in 14:47 there would be the 1th armored detachment if, starting with 14:05, walked at a speed of 13 nodes.
        There is no one's fault, just for such private issues an enlarged scheme does not fit, you need to take a more detailed one, where a specific episode is considered.

        PS
        And we haven’t added Togo speed yet, and he could easily have thrown a knot if he saw that Rozhdestvensky increased the course by two knots. Wherever Togo was in that case, you can imagine the scale down there.
        1. +2
          8 June 2019 11: 38
          Quote: Comrade
          Quote: Jura 27
          I already wrote all the answers in the first three comments (with the pic. The middle one).
          But for you, it’s not difficult for me to write yet: the beginning of the 13-nodal move of Russians in 2-05 (time is everywhere jap.); then we multiply the above speed by time in 42min and put off the distance according to the real Russian course

          You presented an interesting idea, but you posted the outline of the entire Tsushima battle, it was a compressed site, and it’s hard to make out anything there.
          We take more detailed, detailed diagrams of the various stages of the Tsushima battle, attached by the commander of the battleship "Mikasa" to the combat report.

          I will start with comments on a fragment of the diagram (for convenience, everything that has nothing to do with the episode under discussion has been deleted).
          1) The initial speed of the 1-th armored squad 11 nodes,
          2) Increased speed to 13 nodes,
          3) The difference is 2 miles,
          4) 2 miles = 3 704 meters = 4050,74 yards,
          5) With the speed of 13 knots of the 1-th armored squad passed 42 minutes,
          6) In 42 minutes this will be 1,4 miles = 2 592,8 meters = 2 835,52 yards,

          Now we look at the diagram.
          Below the scale, the distance is indicated in yards. Above is a fragment of the scale (the length corresponds to 2 835 yards), the red line continues the trajectory of the 1-th armored squad in a straight line, although the squad actually moved in a different direction.
          As you can see, dear colleague, your statement that
          In real maneuvers of Togo in Tsushima, at a Russian speed of 13 knots, the head Suvorov was already ahead of the Japanese flagship by 14-47

          does not find confirmation on the diagram. Where the red line ends, in 14:47 there would be the 1th armored detachment if, starting with 14:05, walked at a speed of 13 nodes.
          There is no one's fault, just for such private issues an enlarged scheme does not fit, you need to take a more detailed one, where a specific episode is considered.

          PS
          And we haven’t added Togo speed yet, and he could easily have thrown a knot if he saw that Rozhdestvensky increased the course by two knots. Wherever Togo was in that case, you can imagine the scale down there.

          You were mistaken in a difference of speeds: it is necessary to consider a difference between 13 th nodes and 9 th, but not between 13 and 11 th. Those. add to your point, another 2,4 miles and get what I got.
          1. +1
            9 June 2019 04: 29
            Quote: Jura 27
            You were mistaken in a difference of speeds: it is necessary to consider a difference between 13 th nodes and 9 th, but not between 13 and 11 th.

            You are mistaken about the speed, it was not static, sometimes significantly exceeding 11 nodes.
            Wasn't this issue covered by Tsushima?
            1. +1
              9 June 2019 04: 34
              Yes, it was not static. Therefore, I put off 13 knots in 42 min (91 kb) from point 2-05 and get ahead of the Japanese flagship.
              1. +1
                9 June 2019 05: 34
                Quote: Jura 27
                Therefore, I postpone 13 nodes for 42min (91 kbt) from the point 2-05 and get an advance with respect to the Japanese flagship

                You got the lead only because you counted
                Quote: Jura 27
                the difference between the 13 nodes and the 9 nodes

                but you must
                Quote: Jura 27
                between 13 and 11

                Average speed for these 42 minutes was eleven nodes, not nine.
                I repeat, you are mistaken.
                Looking after 14: 47 another four minutes ahead (of which the Japanese kindly also left data), we see that there the Russians made a move 11 и 1/4 node, but not at all nine. It is a myth.
                And the speed of the Japanese is available, and in detail, at time intervals. In addition, in that situation, add a knot or two, like two fingers on the asphalt.
                1. +1
                  9 June 2019 16: 34
                  No, I put off the 13-knot speed from point 2-05, therefore, the real speed of the Russians doesn’t matter, be it at least 9 knots, at least 11.
                  Note The accuracy of the Japanese map must be treated with caution, for example, according to Yapov’s cutoffs, it turns out that the speed of rebuilding the first Russian unit is close to 13 nodes, and all the evidence seems to indicate that the ZPR ordered the first unit to be rebuilt at a speed of 11 knots.
                  Togo could not add two knots, then he would have lost Fuji and broken the line, and it would not have helped him, the Russians would have just turned right more.
  29. +1
    7 June 2019 09: 40
    In general, I realized why they criticized Andrei Nikolaevich. In fact, everything is very simple - he tries to prove (and does it) that 2TOE was well prepared, and her admiral is not so stupid, rather, on the contrary. At the same time, there were quite real and objective reasons that the admiral could not influence in any way. So Rozhdestvensky couldn’t make the ships go faster than they can go, he couldn’t turn bad shells into good shells, he couldn’t give birth to additional training shells at sea, and he couldn’t guess that the Japanese were using completely different shells, not the ones before .
    I understand the critics - the pain of Tsushima still cuts the heart of every normal patriot, because Russia had the THIRD battle fleet in the world! Good officers, good ships, weapons, everything was quite up to standard. And in the end - such a rout!
    But the point is just a little - they did not think about it, they saved it, they stole a little there ... As a result, the proposals to leave the experienced gunners for extra-urgent, the shells were not really tested, the crews went into winter hibernation, the ships were built for an unforgivable time (hello to the Ministry of Finance), although the industry could and knew how to build much faster.
    And as a result ... The result is known to all of us.
    1. +2
      7 June 2019 11: 47
      I understand why they criticize Andrei Nikolaevich


      I will try to answer for myself

      A&H author, for example, of a wonderful series of articles on July 28.07, which I really appreciate

      I am not satisfied with his desire to "hyip", proving deliberate nonsense with false information about the British maneuvers of 1901-1903 (he seriously thought that he would not be checked?), stories about the impossibility of calculating the distance to the next column (he seriously thought that no one would give to him the error values ​​for the BS rangefinders?), drawings, about which he writes the speed of the blue ones is two knots less than the speed of the red ones, but in fact it turns out that his red ones are 4 times faster (why count the readers as clinical?)

      the negative is that instead of, for example, spending two hours redrawing and issuing normal circuits, the author begins to minus, be rude and bear the type that the dashed lines are not related to speed (as they do not, if the circuit has a graphical solution to the problem in the format time - place ?!)

      Shl.
      Tsushima's pain still cuts the heart of every normal patriot, because Russia had the THIRD battle fleet in the world
      1. 0
        7 June 2019 12: 16
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        I am not satisfied with his desire to "hyip", proving deliberate nonsense with false information about the British maneuvers of 1901-1903 (he seriously thought that he would not be checked?), stories about the impossibility of calculating the distance to the next column (he seriously thought that no one would give to him the error values ​​for the BS rangefinders?), drawings, about which he writes the speed of the blue ones is two knots less than the speed of the red ones, but in fact it turns out that his red ones are 4 times faster (why count the readers as clinical?)

        Try to draw your blue and red arrows? Maybe you can do it better.
        1. +1
          7 June 2019 13: 57
          I already drew one last post and counted a couple of options - I got a couple of hundred minuses without justifying those on the totality of comments (okay, in July I’ll leave the vacation again, if the editor does not allow publishing on the site, I will send you and everyone
    2. +2
      8 June 2019 11: 37
      You were mistaken in a difference of speeds: it is necessary to consider a difference between 13 th nodes and 9 th, but not between 13 and 11 th. Those. add to your point, another 2,4 miles and get what I got.
      1. 0
        10 June 2019 08: 03
        Quote: Jura 27
        You were mistaken in a difference of speeds: it is necessary to consider a difference between 13 th nodes and 9 th, but not between 13 and 11 th. Those. add to your point, another 2,4 miles and get what I got.

        Are you sure you answered exactly my comment?
        1. 0
          10 June 2019 17: 04
          Answered a comment somewhere above.
  30. +3
    8 June 2019 13: 57
    I was away, so I’ll answer only now ... bully
    The author again adjusts reality to his conclusions: bully
    "Oh, such an evasive maneuver, if it is performed at least by turning sequentially, even if all of a sudden, it will still lead to the fact that at the end of the column of" blue "there will be a squadron of" red "lined up in a ledge formation, which means that" crossing T "is inevitable."
    1) there will be no crossing of the end, but a fight at the counter courses - as with Shatung, and then yes, the opponent can once again tighten ...
    2) the author forgets about time - in order to ensure a sufficient number of hits you need to not only have time to shoot, but also give a sufficient number of volleys ... and this takes time ... request
    3) the conclusion is simple - crossing is an ordinary theoretical idea, no more - to defeat the enemy, you need a battle in parallel columns, if there is speed superiority, then you can take your flagship out from under concentrated fire, and the enemy on the contrary - see Tsushima .. hi
  31. 0
    22 June 2019 14: 37
    "That is why it was extremely dangerous to start a new maneuver without finishing the previous one - in this way it was possible to completely upset the battle formation of the squadron. And that is why the admirals of those years began the next maneuver only after the previous one was completed."
    This is not a true statement. A simple example from real practice:
    At 1 hour 38 minutes turned 4 R to the left.
    At 1 hour 40 minutes lay on the old course NO 23 °.
    Two turns with an interval of 2 minutes - during this time, even one detachment could not finish the maneuver.

    Further, some schemes cause questions. For example: https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2019-06/1559456392_5.jpg
    Here the reds make a turn "all of a sudden" and approach the blue at a distance of about 20 kabs, then make another turn "all of a sudden" and enter the counter course. Then another successive turn.
    ve this time, due to continuous turns, the Reds can’t really shoot, And they will be shot at times from a distance of 20-25 cubes.
    And in general, the turns "all of a sudden" were not as simple and effective as it turns out in theory. For example, in Tsushima, the attempt of 2TOE, after the failure of Suvorov, to slip behind the tail of the Japanese column was in fact a special case of divergence by countercourses. It was started in very bad conditions. initially 2TOE was under coverage, Suvorov was already out of action, Oslyabya was drowning, and Alexander 3 was damaged. And even with such introductions, this attempt and its parry by the Japanese with the help of turns "all of a sudden" ended with a large number of hits in both directions, incl. knocking out Asama and breaking through the tower on Fuji. And then the Japanese generally fell apart into 2 independent detachments, one of which also managed to get lost in the fog. And this despite the fact that 2TOE no longer had Oslyabi and Suvorov.