Jewels of the Russian Imperial Navy. "Pearls" and "Emerald". Madagascar - Tsushima

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As we know, the news of the death of the 1 Pacific squadron reached Z.P. Rozhestvensky on the first day of his stay in Madagascar. The first reaction of the commander was perfectly sensible - he wanted to continue the march as quickly as possible, not waiting for not only the 3-rd Pacific Squadron, but even the "Catching up squad", which included "Emerald". It would seem that too lf Dobrotvorsky with his cruisers could have been wait, but the problem was that “Oleg”, “Emerald” and the destroyers moved so slowly that the French press humorously renamed the detachment from “catching up” to “lagging”. And just at the moment of concentrating the ships of the 2 squadron in Madagascar, the news about him looked so that it completely collapsed, and it is not clear when it will be able to assemble again.

Of course, in the proposal of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky made sense - to try to lead the 2nd Pacific to Vladivostok while the Japanese were repairing the ships that had suffered at Port Arthur (that the Japanese did not suffer too much, Z.P. Rozhestvensky, of course, could not know). Nevertheless, the Naval Ministry insisted on its own: in his reasoning, there was also some logic, consisting in the fact that the forces entrusted to the command of Zinovy ​​Petrovich were not expected to break through to Vladivostok, but to achieve victory over the Japanese fleet in a general battle, but with the forces at his disposal it was unrealistic.

Be that as it may, the squadron was to unite, and is of some interest, as Z.P. Rozhestvensky saw the organization of his cruising forces (excluding the ships of Rear Admiral NI Nebogatov). Apart from the armored cruiser “Admiral Nakhimov”, which was to be part of the 2 armored detachment, the commander divided them into 3 units, which, not counting the destroyers, included:

1. "Svetlana" and auxiliary cruisers "Kuban", "Terek" and "Ural" - reconnaissance detachment.

2. Armored "Oleg", "Aurora", "Almaz", the old armored "Dmitry Donskoy" and auxiliary "Rion" and "Dnepr" - a cruiser detachment, whose main task was to protect the detachment of transports.

3. And, finally, “Pearls” and “Emerald” did not form any detachment at all, but were ranked as the main forces.

Thus, we can say that Z.P. Rozhestvensky saw “Pearls” and “Emerald” not as scouts, and not “combat” cruisers, which can be put in line with 1-grade armored cruisers, but intended to use them as repetitive ships and to guard armored ships from mine attacks.



However, we will return to this issue in more detail later.

In Madagascar, in the 11-25 period of January 1905, the largest and most intensive artillery exercises of the 2 Pacific Squadron were held during the whole period of its march to Tsushima. “Emerald” did not participate in these exercises, because at that time “Catching up” was not connected with the main forces of the squadron - it was only 1 February 1905 that took place. As for “Pearls”, then the degree of his participation in these exercises, Unfortunately, it is unclear. The fact is that according to the memoirs of the commander of the "Pearl", PP Levitsky (testimony of the Commission of Inquiry):

“The cruiser fired only five practical shots: the 1 time — at anchor at Revel on shields at night, the 2 time — while stationed in Sudskaya bay, for which the cruiser went to sea, the 3 and 4 time — during the cruise from Sudskaya Bay to Madagascar and 5 time - during one of the squadron exits into the ocean while the squadron was stationed in Nossi-be bay near Madagascar. ”


The first detachment artillery drills took place on January 11, when auxiliary cruisers fired at the shields, and the Pearls, of course, did not participate. Then the squadron went into the sea on January 13, while, according to our official historiography, "all the battleships, except for Sisoy the Great" and all the cruisers, and therefore also the "Pearls", went to the teachings. Indirectly confirms this and VP. Kostenko: “After the return, the ships took their places in the raid in the new order, and the Eagle was more seaward than all the battleships. "Pearls" was ahead of the "Eagle" in the column of cruisers. " Once it has become, it means that it was shot from the anchor before, and why was it done, if not to escort the squadron? True, V.P. Kostenko does not mention "Pearls" among the ships that went to sea to the teachings: "As part of the 10 column of ships: 4 battleship of the 1 squadron, Oslyabya, Navarin and Nakhimov" from the 2 squad and Almaz, "Aurora", "Donskoy" from among the cruisers. " But “Pearls could follow outside the column, which he usually did.

Thus, it is quite possible that the cruiser did go to the teachings of 13 in January (for VP Kostenko, for some reason, this output is indicated for January in 14).

Then the squadron went into the sea to shoot 18 and 19 in January, while the official Russian historiography does not report anything about the participation or non-participation of "Pearls". But according to V.P. Kostenko both times the cruiser remained to guard the bay. And, finally, on January 24, "reporting" squadron shooting took place. Again, the participation of “Pearls” in our officialdom is overlooked by silence, but V.P. Kostenko gives a very colorful description of the cruiser maneuvers:

"" Pearls "and destroyers maneuvered, as in a combat situation. When firing from large distances, they hid behind the line of battleships, as if hiding from enemy fire, and when repelling an attack, they rushed into the line of fire. "Pearls", moving from one flank to another, boldly cut off the nose of "Suvorov" and rushed straight to the shields, not paying attention to the fact that in front of the sea froth from the falling projectiles from "Borodino" and "Alexander". At the same time, Pearl itself developed a greater intensity of fire. ”


Of course, the memoirs of V.P. Kostenko is full of mistakes and outright frauds, but still this passage can hardly be considered to be invented by him from beginning to end. But in this case, it turns out that "Pearls" went to the shooting with the squadron not once, but twice. Could the cruiser commander forget about some of the shooting? This is doubtful, and we can only assume that on January 13, when Zhemchug was the first to accompany the squadron on firing, he did not take part in these firing. Or the commander of the cruiser, P.P. Levitsky nevertheless overcame forgetfulness, and “Pearls” did participate in the 6 shooting.

Of interest are the small "maneuvers" undertaken by the ships of the January 15 squadron, in the interval between the firing.
The armored cruiser “Svetlana” came out to sea, which was supposed to portray as much as the main forces of the 2-nd Pacific Squadron heading east. At the same time, the commander of the Svetlana was informed that “enemy” destroyers lurked somewhere in the islands, who have the task of attacking Russian battleships.


Armored cruiser "Svetlana"


The “Japanese” were the most “real-life”, they were represented by the 2-th branch of the destroyers. The latter left Nossi-be in advance. The destroyer commanders knew that the "Russian squadron" would go to sea, but neither the time of its release, nor the exact route to them, of course, were brought. The task of the “ambush” squad, of course, was to detect and attack the “main forces” of the Russian squadron. At the same time, "Svetlana" went out to sea by no means defenseless - it was covered by "Pearls" and the 1-th branch of the destroyers, who were supposed to advance to the islands and prevent the attack of the "Japanese".

Unfortunately, it is not known how these maneuvers ended, and who won: the official historiography is limited to information that “the maneuver was executed satisfactorily” and also reports that these maneuvers caused great interest and revival in the squadron. But, unfortunately, in the future they had to be abandoned because of the deterioration of the mechanisms of the destroyers, although Z.P. Rozhestvensky planned a whole series of such exercises.

Concluding the topic of artillery exercises, we also note that Pearl and Emerald took not only an active, but also a “passive” role in them. It was done this way: during the march, when the ships were going to sea, a squadron declared combat alarm. This was done usually in the morning, after which the Aurora, Dmitry Donskoy, Zhemchug, Izumrud, Rion and Dnepr left on both sides of the building of armored ships, and went at different speeds and courses, while The 1 and 2 armored detachments worked out the determination of the distances on them and trained to install the correct sight of the guns, the last - of course, without a shot. Such exercises in the campaign were held, if not daily, then regularly, usually from 08.00 to 10.30.

When the squadron was on the Strait of Malacca, a funny incident happened: March 24 in 17.00 tentatively "Pearls" raised the signal "I see the enemy fleet on SO 30 degrees." On closer examination, the “fleet” turned out to be a strongly smoking commercial steamer, which was going to the intersection of the squadron course. However, the Japanese on the ships of the squadron at this time "saw" a lot, because the Malacca Strait is long and narrow, and it was not surprising if the Japanese tried to do some kind of sabotage there. From the "Almaz" saw a dozen destroyers, hiding behind the English steamer, from the "Oleg" - submarines, and so on. And during the passage of Singapore, a small steamer approached the squadron, on which the Russian consul, out-door councilor Rudanovsky was stationed: he reported that on March 5 the main forces of the Japanese fleet (!) Of the X. Tumbo 22 flew into Singapore, but now they had gone to about. Borneo, and only single cruisers approach the Strait of Malacca.

In general, the situation remained rather nervous. So, 29 in March and again in 17.00 "Svetlana", marching in the composition of the reconnaissance detachment ahead of the squadron, said "I see the enemy." Z.P. Rozhestvensky sent "Emerald" and "Pearl" for reconnaissance, but it soon became clear that this was a mistake, and the cruisers were returned.

Having approached 06.00 31 in March to Kamrang Bay, the Russian commander feared possible sabotage, so the squadron did not go right away, but sent the destroyers to trawl the entrance and anchor places (it is not clear how this trawling was carried out, but in the official Russian stories it is written that way). Soon the morning fog cleared, and a steamer was discovered in the bay, which immediately tried to escape. "Pearls" and "Emerald" were sent to him, but did not examine, and released after a short survey. On the night of April 1, the “Pearls” with two destroyers were sent to check another ship, which in 02.00 passed between the squadron's ships and the coast. The anxiety turned out to be false, since it was a Chinese cargo-passenger steamer, but nevertheless it was escorted, so to speak, “to avoid” for several miles, highlighting with searchlights.

Z.P. Rozhestvensky suggested that his squadron could be attacked in Cam Ranh by a Japanese fleet. In this case, he was going to take the battle, while the main task of "Pearl" and "Emerald" was to protect the flanks of the armored units from mine attacks. To do this, they were assigned a place opposite the middle of the building of the battleships on the opposite side of the enemy main forces. In addition, the Pearls and the Emerald should have put the enemy's cruiser in two fires if they tried to go around the structure of the Russian battleships and assist and cover the damaged armored ships.

After there was information about the approach of 3-Pacific squadron, "Pearl" and "Rion" were sent to Saigon. In this case, V.V. Khromov claims that “Pearls” lagged behind the “Rion”, and when trying to catch up with him, he could not develop more 18 nodes due to insufficient qualification of firemen. However, the commander of the cruiser P.P. Levitsky describes this episode in a completely different way:

“During the trip, I didn’t have to practice the team in controlling the ferry and cars at the highest speed, but once such an opportunity presented itself when the cruiser made a run from Kamrang Bay to Saigon and back, and the average speed of this run back and forth turned out to be equal to 18 nodes; however, the number of revolutions of the cars on this run was only 130, due to the fact that the firemen were not sufficiently practiced to keep a flat load of high pressure in the boilers (the greatest number of revolutions of the cars on the 165 cruiser). ”


Interestingly, if you take the data PP. Levitsky, saying that “Pearls” needed to add 1-6 revolutions per minute in order to raise the speed to the 7 node, it turns out that while Saigon was staying, “Pearls” could have developed the 23 node, or so.

In search of a suitable detachment of Rear Admiral N.I. Nebogatov also launched the Emerald, together with the auxiliary cruiser Dnepr. Here is how a senior cruiser officer, Patton-Fanton-de-Verrión, describes the search results:

“... on the eve of the connection with the detachment of Admiral Nebogatov, they were sent on the intended route to Cape Padaran. Pro-night cruise, the detachment is not met. Then, on the day the detachment was joined, they were sent along a certain rumba, a certain distance, in order to open the Nebogatov detachment. Squad not met. He approached the squadron from a completely different rumba. ”


We only note that in the second case, the Emerald departed from the main forces of the squadron by no more than 25 miles.

Later, after the connection of the 2 th and 3 of the Pacific squadrons and right up to the Tsushima battle, “Pearl” several times had the opportunity to perform “purely cruising” work. The first time it happened during the detention of "Oldgamy". In the late evening of May 5 (22.45), the cruiser “Oleg” discovered an unknown steamer, which went without lights parallel to the course of the Russian squadron. The cruiser immediately went down, lit the ship with a searchlight and gave a blank shot, and when the ship stopped, he sent an inspection party to it. It turned out to be the British steamer Oldgamy, carrying smuggled cargo of kerosene to Japan, but there was no opportunity to deal with it at night. Accordingly, an officer with three sailors was landed on his board, and an order was given to “Olgdiyu” for “Oleg,” in order to examine the British ship in detail in the morning, when the squadron was to stall.

That was done, but when the squadron stopped on 05.00 in the morning of May 6, another ship was found on S. "Pearls" was sent to inspect it: a combat alarm was sounded. But it turned out to be the Norwegian steamer "Oscar II", which was empty from Manila to Japan, despite the fact that its documents were in perfect order. Accordingly, Z.P. Rozhdestvensky had no choice but to let go of the “Norwegian”, despite the risk that the Oscar II crew could easily convey to the Japanese the location and composition of the Russian squadron.

And, again, different interpretations of this event are interesting: V.V. Khromov argues that the decision to release the PP Norwegian transport Levitsky accepted on his own, and the commander did not approve of his action, cursing him with an “iron head”. At the same time, the official Russian historiography indicates that the decision to release “Oscar II” was made by Zinovy ​​Petrovich.

When the squadron was held near the coast of. Formosa, from "Pearl" reported that they see ... a balloon. It is difficult to say what he was confused with, but other ships of the squadron confirmed the message of the cruiser. The commander ordered Pearls to conduct reconnaissance, but no further 12 miles from the main forces, and Oleg to support Pearls if necessary. Intelligence, of course, found nothing.

9 May Z.P. Rozhestvensky built the forces “house” entrusted to him - in front of the 3-4 cables, a reconnaissance detachment was walking, followed by the main forces in the 2-y columns, one of which was the 1 armored detachment and ships N.I. Nebogatov, and the second - 2 th armored detachment, with the "Pearl" and "Emerald" were to follow the traverse of the flagship battleships "Prince Suvorov" and "Oslyabya." Now they were obliged to drive away from the squadron any ships encountered, without waiting for special orders.

12 May “Pearls” and “Emerald” departed several miles from the squadron so that the rest of the ships could verify rangefinders against them, and besides, to observe the sea, but no ships or vessels were found. The next day, the squadron, continuing the campaign, was engaged in evolution. I must say that on the last transition Z.P. Rozhestvensky tried his best to intensify combat training — artillery exercises were conducted daily, range finders were calibrated, etc.

The most tragic naval battle of all that the Russian fleet had to participate was approaching. But, before we proceed to the description of the participation of our 2-grade armored cruisers in it, let us raise one more question, which we have already dealt with several times before. Why did the commander of the Russian squadron, having at its disposal a mass of auxiliary cruisers, and the specialized cruiser reconnaissance aircraft, the Pearl and the Emerald, not undertake a long-range reconnaissance of the Korean Strait?

Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky explained the refusal of long-range intelligence by saying that he could not provide any useful information sent forward by the cruisers, but their very appearance would have warned the Japanese about the imminent approach of the main forces. Interestingly, the historical commission, which formed the official history of our fleet in the Russian-Japanese war, in this part fully confirmed the validity of such a decision of the vice-admiral.

The members of the historical commission considered that, having decided to break through to Vladivostok by the Korean Strait, Z.P. Rozhestvensky simply had to make his plans on the assumption that the main forces of the United Fleet in full force would impede its passage. If, for some unclear reason, Kheyhatiro of Togo would have divided his fleet and met the 2 and 3 Pacific Squadrons with only a part of its forces, this should be perceived as an unexpected and pleasant surprise, a gift of fate.

In other words, if distant intelligence had discovered the entire Japanese fleet, she would not have told the commander anything new, and if she had only seen part of the Japanese fleet, then Z.P. Rozhdestvensky (according to members of the commission) should not have believed such data. The commander was still obliged to proceed from the fact that he confronted the entire Japanese fleet and considered that the reconnaissance was not performed well enough and its data were erroneous.

The only benefit that could be achieved by conducting long-range intelligence, in the opinion of the commission members, could have occurred only if Z.P. Rozhestvensky sent an reconnaissance detachment to the Korean Strait, while he himself would have gone on a breakthrough by some other route. Then there could still be a small chance that the Japanese would be carried away by the appeared cruisers and miss the main forces of the squadron. But at the same time, the authors of the official history of the fleet noted that the likelihood of such an outcome would be very small, and very significant forces would have to be sent to distract the enemy, which created the preconditions for the defeat of the Russian squadron in parts. In other words, the official Russian historiography fully supports Z.P. Rozhestvensky in refusal of long-range intelligence.

True, members of the commission have a completely different opinion about near intelligence, but we will talk about this in the next article of our cycle.

To be continued ...

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122 comments
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  1. +5
    April 17 2019 18: 18
    Dear Andrey, as always, it is very interesting.
  2. +6
    April 17 2019 20: 15
    Article plus, dear colleague good hi
    Thus, we can say that Z.P. Rozhdestvensky saw "Pearls" and "Emerald" not scouts

    Um, Rozhdestvensky was in no way going to use his cruisers of the 2nd rank, except as intended, because
    but assumed to use them as rehearsal ships and to protect armored ships from mine attacks.

    these things are spelled out in their responsibilities when designing Yes
    And here is the use of how
    and not "battle" cruisers

    very fraught, and you, colleague, you know very well, because when justifying the TTZ and their design, the emphasis was on speed, which was supposed to provide the two main functions of these cruisers - reconnaissance and ensuring the actions of mine forces, which included protecting their ships from mine attacks and support for the attacks of their destroyers. That is why they turned out to be under-armed for operations against cruisers, but quite possible for supporting destroyers or repelling mine attacks. Therefore, attaching "Pearls" and "Emerald" to the main forces, Rozhdestvensky knew perfectly well why these cruisers were created and putting them in a battle squad of cruisers was fraught with danger!
    Personally, I do not see any admiral error here. request The fact that they were used to a limited extent as precisely the close scouts in the squadron is because you yourself described why.
    At some unknown time I will repeat myself - to fulfill the tasks assigned to them in the design of a 2nd rank cruiser of the Novik type (the Novik itself and its sisterships by designation) are quite adequate! And I am already quite amused by the comments when they are stubbornly put to fight against cruisers and then sincerely wonder why the "noviks" are so weak ... Because they had no tasks to fight against cruisers !! smile
    Read carefully their tasks feast design and proceed from this, dear forum users drinks
    Personally, my opinion ...
    Once again a plus, Andrey Nikolaevich !! hi
    1. +1
      April 18 2019 22: 17
      Greetings, dear Andrew!
      Quote: Rurikovich
      these things are spelled out in their responsibilities when designing

      I agree, but intelligence is also registered there :)))) And what they didn’t use as battle cruisers - I just state a fact. The solution is absolutely correct.
      1. +1
        April 19 2019 09: 59
        And that is not used as fighting cruisers - I’m only stating a fact

        Hmm, the term is a little unsuitable, because the fight with EM is also a fight ... But the very Christmas one considered that Diamond (4x75mm) was quite a battlecruiser)))
  3. +5
    April 17 2019 21: 44
    Thanks to Andrey, as always! hi

    Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky explained the rejection of long-range reconnaissance by the fact that the cruisers sent forward could not have presented any useful information to him


    The saddest thing is that all this intelligence speculation is hollow. Whether there was reconnaissance or not, in any case, the squadron was doomed and disaster was inevitable. And Rozhestvensky in this situation can’t be envied: you cannot go back, forward - certain death, "well, where the peasant can go ..." (C). And yet it was better for him to go back, and in this case the spot of shame would have been on one admiral, and not on the whole country. But now, of course, reasoning is easy. request
    1. +1
      April 17 2019 22: 53
      Quote: Sea Cat
      But now it’s easy to reason, of course.

      History does not know the subjunctive mood, alas ...
      Rozhestvensky raised the combat training in the 2nd squadron so much that it fired better than the 1st. But the quantity did not turn into quality, because the economy policy led to the fact that the quality of ammunition leveled the number of hits from the word in general. Unfortunately, it surfaced after the RJAV. And who knows, Mikasa would have survived 32 hits from Russian shells if they had adequate characteristics. But this is the lyrics smile
      Quote: Sea Cat
      forward - certain death, "well, where can the peasant go ...

      Alas, Rozhestvensky did not think so, based on the results of the battle at Shantung. He simply forgot that speed is one of the key success factors, and therefore the 9 knots of his squadron’s move were many times worse than the 13 knots of the squadron’s move of the Portarteans, and therefore the Japanese got the necessary tactical advantage by focusing the fire as they please, rather than as Russian allow ....
      Quote: Sea Cat
      And yet he had better go back, and in this case the spot of shame would have been on one admiral, and not on the whole country.

      Yeah laughing Half a year to go half a year in order to refuse to make the last day's transition .. Formally, the Russians already saw the lights of Vladik Yes but .... desires were not comparable with the possibilities No.
      1. -2
        April 17 2019 23: 02
        Do you remember when and where Rozhestvensky received the news of the death of the first squadron? It was then that it was necessary to abandon this crazy venture, and not drag it on the rampage like a ram on a new gate. And it doesn’t matter what they saw there ... the lights of Vladik ... the lights really were there, only the lights of the underworld for many hundreds of people, and it was not Admiral Togo who was to blame for their death, but Zinovy ​​Rozhdestvensky among others.
        1. 0
          April 17 2019 23: 10
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Do you remember when and where Rozhestvensky received the news of the death of the first squadron? It was then that it was necessary to abandon this crazy venture, and not drag it on the rampage like a ram on a new gate.

          Formally, the squadron of Christmas was not inferior to the Japanese in terms of firepower. As well as the 1st Pacific Squadron. To abandon the battle in such situations is finally put an end to the fleet of the Republic of Ingushetia. Assign him a rating worse than Italian.
          1. 0
            April 19 2019 13: 22
            Quote: Saxahorse
            Formally, the squadron of Christmas was not inferior to the Japanese in terms of firepower.

            10-12 dm guns significantly superior ... another thing is that the ZPR did not allow its commandants to shoot at the beginning of the battle ... request
            1. 0
              April 19 2019 13: 32
              Quote: ser56
              ZPR did not give the opportunity to their commandants to shoot at the beginning of the battle

              What? fool
              1. 0
                April 19 2019 16: 22
                Is it convenient to shoot during sharp changes (the so-called heap) or at a poorly visible target?
                1. 0
                  April 19 2019 17: 35
                  1) Judging by the number of hits in the Japanese, the Russian gunners were quite comfortable.
                  2) And what about visibility? And how could this be affected by ZPR?
                  1. 0
                    April 19 2019 17: 44
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    Judging by the number of hits

                    for you, sharp braking and camber do not affect the shooting? bully
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    And how could this be affected by ZPR?

                    commonplace - increase the speed to 13-14 knots and thus prevent Mikasa from going far ahead ... hi
                    1. 0
                      April 19 2019 18: 23
                      Quote: ser56
                      for you, sharp braking and camber do not affect the shooting?

                      There was no "sharp braking" there, except perhaps for the "Oslyabi". and "there were no sharp maneuvers either," the first detachment described a rather simple coordinate system and became the head of the battleship column.
                      increase the speed to 13-14 ties and thus prevent Mikase from going far ahead

                      And from increased distance would visibility improve?
                      1. 0
                        April 19 2019 21: 30
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        the first detachment described a rather simple coordinate and became the head of the column of armadillos.

                        "simple coordonat" is that what you call the mess that ZPR created in the first minutes of the battle? laughing
                      2. 0
                        April 19 2019 21: 34
                        The coordinate, I call the coordinate.
                      3. 0
                        April 20 2019 15: 47
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        There was no "sharp braking" there, except perhaps for the "Oslyabi"

                        it seems you have your own reality bully
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And from increased distance would visibility improve?

                        do you have your own arithmetic? bully With an increase in the speed of 2TOE, Mikasa would not be able to quickly overtake Suvorov - so there would be a battle in parallel columns, the Russians would have a chance due to a larger number of 10-12dm guns!
                      4. 0
                        April 20 2019 16: 39
                        Quote: ser56
                        it seems you have your own reality

                        I can tell you the same thing.
                        Quote: ser56
                        do you have your own arithmetic?

                        No, you have some kind of alternative logic
                        Because you wrote: for a poorly visible target and to improve visibility, they suggested:increase the speed to 13-14 ties and thus prevent Mikase from going far ahead ...
                        How visibility will increase with increasing distance is definitely incomprehensible to me. In general, in the beginning of the battle, there was a normal distance in 35 cables and plus, due to the maneuvers of ZPR, Togo had to rearrange in front of the Russian system, picking up shells at the same time. Another thing is that the quality of these shells (especially fuses, as well as the contents of explosives) was completely unsatisfactory. But here no maneuvers will help.
                        By the way, and at a speed of knots in the 13-14 (which the armadillos of Rozhestvensky could hardly have developed), Togo still had an advantage in the course.
                      5. 0
                        April 22 2019 15: 40
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I can tell you the same thing.

                        you can say anything, but I recommend looking at the start of the battle - 1h50m ....
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        How visibility will increase with increasing distance is definitely incomprehensible to me.

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        increase the speed to 13-14 ties and thus prevent Mikase from going far ahead ...

                        I recommend to read and understand the text ... bully With my introductory Mikas, REVERSE will not increase the distance
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        because of the maneuvers of the ZPR, Togo had to change front in front of the Russian system,

                        you have a new story again ... Togo maneuvered by crossing T ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        what the quality of these shells

                        it was quite ... they pierced the Fuji tower, Asame made a hole under the water ... Can't you bring such hits to the Japanese? feel
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        which the armadillos of Rozhestvensky could hardly have developed

                        Not at all - see the testimony of the Commission ... Borodino's weak link - 14uz.
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Togo still had an advantage in the move.

                        you have a strange logic - the difference in 1-2uz and 5-6 for you does not matter? bully
                      6. 0
                        April 22 2019 16: 05
                        Quote: ser56
                        I recommend to read and understand the text

                        So you write something less absurd. Because Togo's squadron speed is still higher than 13-14 nodes. (I confess to the point I didn’t immediately taste it, it painfully you expressed your idea intricately).
                        Togo maneuvered by crossing T.

                        Come on!

                        I really didn’t know that for crossing T, it was imperative to make a consistent turn in front of the enemy formation.
                        Quote: ser56
                        it was quite ... they pierced the Fuji tower, Asame made a hole under the water ... Can't you bring such hits to the Japanese?

                        And besides the hole, did anything happen?
                        I’ll tell you a terrible secret, in order to damage an enemy ship, there’s something more than breaking through the armor

                        Will the "great artillery guru" explain to me how 1.3 kg of pyroxylin can be compared with 19 kg of gunpowder in armor-piercing, or 6 kg of pyroxylin can surpass 37 kg of shimosa.
                        I’m just silent about the fuses.
                        Borodino weak link - 14

                        were there no one except Borodin in the ranks?
                        Does the difference in 1-2 and 5-6 not matter to you?

                        why does it have. But the Japanese have twelve high-speed pennants, and we have only ...
                        You have the usual fallacy for beginner alternatives. You seriously putting yourself in the place of ZPR, but I’ll do it differently than he, and the Japanese will be happy just the same. And the fact that Togo can also begin to act differently does not occur to you.
                      7. 0
                        April 22 2019 16: 34
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Because Togo's squadron speed is still above 13-14 knots.

                        Quote: ser56
                        you have a strange logic - the difference in 1-2uz and 5-6 for you does not matter?

                        forced to repeat your tests ... bully I will add - the difference in 1-2 bonds does not give a significant tactical gain - see the battle at Shatung ... request
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I really didn’t know that for crossing T it is necessary to commit

                        These are the problems of maneuvering Togo, but ZPR did not punish ... but he could! The most commonplace is to turn Mikas in the opposite direction and disperse in counter-courses ... if possible, hit the EDB in Kamimura ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And besides the hole, did anything happen?

                        are you so little familiar with history? Asama failed - not enough? Fuji saved the water in the hydraulic system ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        to damage an enemy ship, you need something else besides breaking through the armor

                        I’ll tell you a secret - without breaking through the armor, it’s difficult to damage the ship ... Therefore, they make armor-piercing shells ... request
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        how 1.3 kg of pyroxylin can be compared with 19 kg of gunpowder in armor piercing,
                        you did not confuse the size of gunpowder? request I will say more - black powder less effective explosives bully
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        or 6 kg of pyroxylin

                        WHERE does this kg take place ... Russian PB is more effective for weakly armored targets ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I’m just silent about the fuses.

                        and good, otherwise repeat all the horror stories ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        were there no one except Borodin in the ranks?

                        This is the problem of ZPR that he did not understand the role of speed and maneuver request
                        and the main forces of 2TOE is 6EBR with new artillery - to list? bully
                        Another thing is that I used my strength ZPR in a peculiar way ... request
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        But the Japanese have twelve high-speed pennants, and we have only ...

                        the Japanese have 4EBR ... everything else doesn't really matter ... bully for you the Garibaldians are power? bully
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        You have the usual fallacy for beginner alternatives.
                        you do not know my knowledge well, but strive to teach ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And the fact that Togo can also begin to act differently does not occur to you.

                        Watch your head ... bully There are certain principles and Togo is not able to circumvent reality - for example, if the ZPR holds 13uz - it is impossible to overtake the column and make the concentration of fire on Suvorov - this is another reality ...
                      8. 0
                        April 23 2019 08: 47
                        Quote: ser56
                        strive to teach

                        I apologize if my words hurt you. I just spent a lot of time on AI forums and everything that you suggested has already been seen / heard / read.

                        are you so little familiar with history? Asam failed - not enough?

                        Yeah, got out. Somewhere for an hour. They just repaired this malfunction for about 15 minutes, and the rest of the time she caught up and tried to take a place in the order.
                        Fuji saved the water in the hydraulic system.
                        ..
                        dismantled this damage. The likelihood of undermining the cellar was extremely small.
                        I’ll tell you a secret - without breaking through the armor, it’s difficult to damage the ship ... Therefore, they make armor-piercing shells ...

                        That is, "Prince Suvorov" was not beaten due to its incapacitated state, "Borodino" did not explode, and "Alexander III" did not sink from the received damage? Original.
                        you did not confuse the size of gunpowder?

                        If I got it wrong, then not me, but Titushkin
                        I will say more - black powder less effective explosives

                        But not twenty times. And not even five. Moreover, the Japanese shells were likely to be overloaded by Tsushima.
                        otherwise repeat all the horror stories ...

                        Do you have another explanation for the test results of shells in Vladivostok?
                        I will add - the difference in 1-2 ties does not give a significant tactical gain - see the battle at Shatung

                        if ZPR holds 13uz - it is impossible to overtake the convoy and make the concentration of fire on Suvorov - this is another reality ...

                        Excuse me, are you sure that you got acquainted with the battle of Shantung?
                        Simply, Togo just overtook Vitgeft and just focused the fire on the "Tsarevich". And there they fought six by six, including the Garibaldians that you value so low.
                      9. +1
                        April 23 2019 12: 30
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I'm sorry

                        drove through drinks
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Yeah, got out. Somewhere for an hour

                        the main thing was knocked out ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        The likelihood of undermining the cellar was extremely small.

                        cord repeatedly and later exploded .. see Mikas or 1MB ..
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        That is, "Prince Suvorov" was not beaten due to an incapacitated state
                        it’s the fault of ZPR, who maneuvered illiterate and fought in 9uz request
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Borodino did not explode,

                        but could Fuji ... this is to the question of your "analysis"
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        and "Alexander III" did not sink from the received damage?

                        problems of the struggle for survivability ... Relight survived ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Originally.

                        no, just a breakdown of the armor is the most direct and effective way ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        If I got it wrong, then not me, but Titushkin

                        broadcast strange data?
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Moreover, the Japanese shells were likely to be overloaded by Tsushima.

                        then why bother about gunpowder? bully
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Do you have another explanation for the test results of shells in Vladivostok?

                        I know well how they do excuses ... bully
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Simply, Togo just overtook Vitgeft and just focused the fire on the "Tsarevich"

                        however, it took a lot of time and Mikasa caught shells from all over the 1st TOE ... Would he have survived the passage along the 2nd TOE formation? Witgeft is noticeably more intelligent and skilled admiral ... request

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Excuse me, are you sure that you got acquainted with the battle of Shantung?

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And there they fought six on six

                        How interesting ... and Yakumo? bully
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        the Garibaldians you value so little.

                        Do you think equal to the EDB? for example Peresvet or Sisoy? hi
                      10. 0
                        April 23 2019 12: 57
                        Quote: ser56
                        then why bother about gunpowder?

                        There is not about gunpowder, but the amount of explosives in the shell. The consequence of the presence / absence of which is damage to the enemy ship. Otherwise, they would simply shoot blanks.
                        Quote: ser56
                        cord repeatedly and later exploded

                        There were more problems with shimosa. (on "Mikasa" essno)
                        excuse

                        Please talk nonsense. The results of the shelling of Sveaborg - also excuses? Unexploded ordnance in the Gul incident - juggling? (By the way, here ZPR really needs to be presented. The bell should have rang.)
                        Quote: ser56
                        could Fuji

                        Could not. Maximum - failure of the tower (barbet). Which is what happened.
                        Quote: ser56
                        however, it took a lot of time and Mikasa caught shells from all over the 1TOE ...

                        Somehow he caught much more from 2TOE. For some reason, it didn’t help.
                        Relight survived

                        Invalid example.
                        Quote: ser56
                        and Yakumo?

                        And when did he get in line?
                        Do you think equal to the EDB? for example Peresvet or Sisoy?

                        Purely theoretically, of course, any overexposure covers any Asamoid (not to mention the Garibaldian), like a bull a sheep. And in fact, seven serviceable 10 "Peresvet" and "Victory" have achieved as many as three hits in the ZhM. Like one such weapon of "Kasuga" (Emnip essno)
                      11. +1
                        April 23 2019 15: 22
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Otherwise, they would simply shoot blanks.

                        and they shot ... and now they shoot at the tanks - the fragments of armor and shell have a damaging effect - the main thing is to break through the armor ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Please talk nonsense. The results of the shelling of Sveaborg - also excuses?

                        Not at all - Glory in the tropics was not ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        by the way, here ZPR really needs to be presented

                        given the fact that he was the head of the training and art detachment ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Maximum - failure of the tower (barbet).

                        if the fire had not flooded - who knows ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Somehow he caught much more from 2TOE. For some reason, it didn’t help.

                        do not you kill him? bully Moved along the line for longer - there would have been a lacquer ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And when did he get in line?

                        forgot? it happens...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And in fact, seven serviceable 10 "Peresvet" and "Victory" achieved three hits in WM

                        it is useless to compare technical data and training ... I note - training can be raised, TTX - no ... bully
                      12. 0
                        April 23 2019 15: 50
                        Quote: ser56
                        shoot at tanks

                        Yeah, they shoot. only in the tank the layout is a little denser, don’t you?
                        In general, this idiotic (sorry, I can’t find another word) argument is often given by people who are completely unaware of the issue. But you kind of ...
                        Quote: ser56
                        Glory in the tropics was not

                        let's, whatever happens with the "visibility" (which you applied neither to the village nor to the city, since you meant distance), you will tell what, in your opinion, happened to "Slava", because it was not in the tropics, and that, in turn, led to the fact that the courtyard of the Sveaborg fortress was covered with unexploded shells.
                        Quote: ser56
                        given the fact that he was the head of the educational art detachment ..

                        given the number of hits in the Japanese, he knew his business.
                        Quote: ser56
                        do not you kill him?

                        Those shells? Not.
                        Well, perhaps they would have been poured so much that he lost buoyancy. But this is a very loose assumption.
                        Quote: ser56
                        forgot?

                        Me not:)))
                        In the second phase of the battle, which began after a respite at 17.30, "Yakumo" was the last in the column of the main forces and followed the armored cruiser "Nissin" into the wake. Since the Japanese were in the position of catching up, Yakumo was the last to enter the artillery duel.
                        And you?
                      13. 0
                        April 23 2019 18: 26
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Yeah, they shoot. only in the tank the layout is a little denser, don’t you?

                        and different calibers .... bully I recall that armored decks were specially introduced to catch fragments of armor and rivets ... hi Well, such a "trifle" as flooding through a "simple" hole ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        In general, this idiotic (sorry, I can’t find another word) argument
                        like% phlegmatizers was increased precisely because of a possible stay in the tropics - no? feel
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        was bombarded with unexploded ordnance.

                        I note that the fuses still worked ....
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        given the number of hits in the Japanese, he knew his business

                        the flagship is not only an artilleryman, but ZPR had problems with driving a squadron ... like managing people ... however, Neobogatov managed to calibrate rangefinders at 3TO, but there were problems with 2TO .... so your point is debatable. .. request
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Those shells? Not.

                        may need to hit more often? bully
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And you?

                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        And there they fought six on six

                        I am not, but you are by no means ... feel
                      14. 0
                        April 23 2019 18: 42
                        Quote: ser56
                        Well, such a "trifle" as flooding through a "simple" hole ...

                        For once I agree. This is really a trifle compared to the present torn projectile.
                        Quote: ser56
                        like% phlegmatizers was increased precisely because of a possible stay in the tropics - no?

                        How lovely! Novikov surfaced ... there was nothing like this, this is the first. "Glory" did not shoot at Sveaborg - this is the second.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I note that the fuses still worked

                        At best, one in three.
                        Quote: ser56
                        may need to hit more often?

                        To adversary from the weight of unexploded ordnance to the bottom left?
                        Quote: ser56
                        me not

                        That is, the fact that "Yakumo" has ripened to the nodding analysis is full participation for you? Why didn't you remember about "Asama"? He was hanging out there too.
                      15. 0
                        April 24 2019 13: 23
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        with a real exploding shell.

                        on armor or after? Experience shows that not all shells explode even among the British and Germans ... request Okay, talking from the area is better to be ...
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Novikov surfaced

                        but what without him - he is an eyewitness, albeit a battalion ... many forget about it - like cunning censorship on the contrary bully
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        full participation for you?

                        but sometimes not full? bully
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Why didn't you remember about "Asama"? He was hanging out there too.

                        did Asama stand in line? New, fresh! bully
                      16. 0
                        April 24 2019 14: 02
                        Quote: ser56
                        but what without him - he is an eyewitness

                        I have no more questions.
                      17. 0
                        April 22 2019 23: 03
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        I really didn’t know that for crossing T, it was imperative to make a sequential turn before the enemy

                        Beautiful scheme. And can I find out where? I’m still trying to understand why you got the idea that ZPR completed the coordinate in the first minutes of the battle ??

                        In fact, every single witness showed that the 1st detachment "leaned" to the left, gradually emerging at the head of the left column. There was no trace of "all of a sudden" maneuvering.
                      18. 0
                        April 23 2019 08: 48
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        where did you get the idea that ZPR performed the coordinate

                        Since this maneuver is so called.
                      19. 0
                        April 23 2019 21: 51
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Since this maneuver is so called.

                        Oh, these alternatives ... lol

                        Neither Aleksandrovsky, licking ZPR from all sides, nor even your beloved liar Semyonov has a single word about any turns "all of a sudden." But it is written in black and white that the 1st detachment leaned to the left and went diagonally to the head of the squadron, after which the command "to enter the wake of the 1st detachment" followed. Rozhestvensky corny cut off the 2nd detachment by rebuilding into the second row at too low a speed.

                        The result was not only a landfill of ships, this ZPR maneuver eventually led to a strong lag of the 2nd and 3rd detachments and greatly facilitated the shooting of the 1st detachment to the Japanese.
                      20. 0
                        April 23 2019 21: 59
                        Did you understand what you wrote?
                        Coordinate. = Maneuver at the same angle in opposite directions.
                      21. 0
                        April 23 2019 22: 06
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Did you understand what you wrote?
                        Coordinate. = Maneuver at the same angle in opposite directions.

                        Didn't you even understand that the coordinate for the detachment is a turn "all of a sudden" at a given angle?
                      22. 0
                        April 23 2019 22: 11
                        I don’t even know what to answer. That is, I understand that you really want to object, but essentially it doesn’t work, but ...
                      23. 0
                        April 23 2019 22: 37
                        They essentially told you that there were no coordinates in the first minutes of the battle. Moreover, such a maneuver, with a turn by the front in the direction of its detachment, is extremely dangerous. I’m writing about obvious things ..
                      24. 0
                        April 22 2019 15: 42
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        due to maneuvers

                        it's difficult to call his actions maneuvers - this is admiral's illiteracy request
                      25. 0
                        April 22 2019 16: 05
                        You would be in his place ... wow!
                      26. 0
                        April 22 2019 16: 40
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        You would be in his place ... wow!

                        I am in my place, but keep your complexes to yourself!
                        The stupidities of ZPR do not cease to be them and after 110 years request
                        Main:
                        1) Complete passivity before the battle - the absence of demonstrations and attempts to deceive the enemy
                        2) The wrong division of forces between the units - the marching system turned into a battle! 2BO detachment was led by a dead man ... It is reasonable to create 2 detachments - Borodin, Oslyabya and Sisoy - the main forces (13th move), Nebogatov's detachment - IN1, Navarin, Nakhimov, BVO (11uz move)
                        3) Breakthrough of the narrowness at night, without TR and GS ... use the latter for demonstration to the Sangarsky or other channel ...
                        etc. etc.
                        There is no alternative here, as well as afterglow request
                      27. 0
                        April 23 2019 08: 50
                        Quote: ser56
                        The stupidities of ZPR do not cease to be them and after 110 years

                        so that you repeat, about the same.
                        ok let's round off. We still can’t convince each other, so what's the point?
        2. +1
          April 17 2019 23: 30
          Quote: Sea Cat
          It was then that it was necessary to abandon this crazy venture, and not drag it on the rampage like a ram on a new gate.

          In the army, Konstantin, orders are not discussed wink Yes
          Moreover, during the war ...
          1. 0
            April 18 2019 16: 19
            I have served my trt for a year and I know what an order is and what happens even for "an attempt to disobey the order" (there is also such an article). But it's not about that, but about how people can take responsibility in a dubious situation, that's all. wink Yes
            Hello to the minusers: the vocabulary is at zero - we set the squiggles. laughing
            1. +1
              April 18 2019 18: 49
              Quote: Sea Cat
              But it's not about that, but about how much people can take responsibility in a dubious situation, that's all.

              Konstantin, Rozhdestvensky, apparently, had a different opinion about the situation wink He had an advantage in heavy weapons 10-12 ", in his head he took into account the result of the battle at Shantung, because he believed that with some losses he would be able to reach Vladivostok. And I repeat once again - Tsushima was lost mainly at speed - go Japanese at the speed of Russians and shoot as in a classic linear battle - in columns parallel to each other - it is not yet known what the result would be. Therefore Rozhestvensky knew where he was going.
              Alas, it was "crossing T" with an advantage in speed that did their job. request
            2. +3
              April 18 2019 22: 14
              Quote: Sea Cat
              But it's not about that, but about how much people can take responsibility in a dubious situation, that's all.

              Konstantin, let's remember what result Rozhestvensky expected from the battle of Tsushima
              "I expected that the squadron would meet in the Korean Strait or near the concentrated forces of the Japanese fleet, a significant proportion of armored and light cruisers and the entire mine fleet. I was sure that a general battle would take place during the day, and, at night, the ships of the squadron would be attacked by all available However, I could not admit the thought of the complete extermination of the squadron, and, by analogy with the battle on July 28, 1904, I had reason to consider it possible to reach Vladivostok with the loss of several ships. "

              That is, if Rozhdestvensky knew in advance about the scale of the catastrophe, one could still think about something, and so ... And after all, which is characteristic, the Russian commander’s version is very plausible. His squadron shoots better than 1TOE, it has more modern battleships, it is much superior to the Japanese in heavy weapons. But the latter have not sunk a single Russian battleship at the shantung ... So you would not be in trouble?
              1. 0
                April 18 2019 22: 37
                Good evening, Andrey. Rozhestvensky could think about anything, no one could forbid him. But "chickens are counted in the fall" (C), but there was practically nothing to count. What the Japanese could not drown, our admirals themselves gave them into their hands. You look at everything that happened then and one simple thought creeps into your head: maybe it was easier not to fight them at all, but to immediately hand over our fleet to them without much torment, and put an end to this. In what other war were we so beaten "in the tail and in the mane" both on land and at sea? Involuntarily, you will begin to understand all these variegated revolutionaries and their hatred of the royal house.
                1. 0
                  April 19 2019 07: 47
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Good evening, Andrey. Rozhestvensky could think about anything, no one could forbid him. But "chickens are counted in the fall" (C)

                  Aga. Only this is after-knowledge, and it is not applicable to the assessment of the actions of historical persons. This, sorry, as with Napoleon - retrospectively, we know for sure that going to Russia is nonsense, but putting ourselves in the place of Bonaparte, we simply will not see any other way out of his position.
                  1. 0
                    April 19 2019 21: 54
                    Say, for example, that Borka Yeltsin is an alcoholic laughing , it is known to all of our contemporaries, how else will the descendants of the years evaluate it, in a hundred. Probably the same. request This is me not only to Admiral Z.P.R. but also to the "sovereign of all Russia" and all his court camarilla. During the whole war, NOT A SINGLE BATTLE, neither on land nor at sea. What the hell is this afterthought ...
                    1. 0
                      April 19 2019 21: 58
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      Say, for example, that Borka Yeltsin is an alcoholic laughing, this is known to all our contemporaries, then how would the descendants of years evaluate him differently, after a hundred. Probably the same.

                      Only your example is not quite correct. It was by choosing him for the presidency that we learned that he was an alcoholic, and when he was chosen for the first time, everyone believed that he was a ray of light in a dark kingdom, otherwise they would not have chosen. That is, at the time of the historic action, he looked to us as the hope and support of the Russian land, but it turned out to be such ... such a substance ... well, I already have one warning, I will not specify :))))
                      so here you are - diametrically opposed personality assessments in recent history :)))
                      1. 0
                        April 19 2019 22: 05
                        Fortunately, even then I did not consider wrestling to be a "ray of light" and did not run to the White House on stupid barricades. Borka is still the same party nomenclature, which I have been in all the years of the Bolshevik rule. What good could he bring - only one ... I already have four warnings. So for this, if I may say so, personality, I have one and specific assessment. :)))
              2. 0
                April 19 2019 08: 06
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                she is far superior to the Japanese in heavy guns.


                On this occasion, it seems to me, the English expressed themselves well. I do not remember literally, but I will try to convey the meaning;

                "....until the Russians and the French on the exercises, mostly held on paper, proceed from counting the number of large-caliber guns, victory in a real battle will be in great question..... "1900
              3. 0
                April 19 2019 13: 25
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And after all, which is characteristic, the version of the Russian commander is very believable

                if the squadron is being led reasonably, and not at 9uz and not put in a heap ... request
        3. +3
          April 18 2019 02: 19
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Do you remember when and where Rozhestvensky received the news of the death of the first squadron? It was then that it was necessary to abandon this crazy venture, and not drag it on the rampage like a ram on a new gate.

          Why is it "insane"?
          28 July 1904 g. The Japanese released 603 12 '' shell, and on May 14, 1905 maximum 429 (actually even less). A comparison of the results of the two battles allows us to conclude that, shoot the Japanese so и the, How и than they fired at Shantung, the fate of the unit of Christmas would be different.
          1. +1
            April 18 2019 22: 15
            My respect, dear Valentine! hi
            1. +1
              April 19 2019 00: 59
              Hello, dear Andrey!
              Glad to meet you, thanks for continuing the cycle. As always with you, it is easy and pleasant to read.
          2. 0
            April 19 2019 13: 26
            Quote: Comrade
            as well as how and with what they fired under Shantung

            a hint of Swedish 12 "BB? feel
        4. 0
          April 18 2019 06: 06
          refuse Rozhdestvensky would appoint Felkersam or Nebogatov and what? doubly shame for Russia. wine on a low-temperature passion-terpil
        5. +3
          April 18 2019 09: 06
          Quote: Sea Cat
          And then it was necessary to abandon this crazy undertaking

          So he tried to refuse ... but the king’s order, this is such a thing that you can’t ignore.
          1. +1
            April 18 2019 13: 12
            It’s easy for us sitting on the couch to sort out the mistakes, but will we refuse in the place of the Minister of the Sea or the same Christmas?
            My opinion: the breakthrough to Vladivostok was justified: now we know what Japan was capable of, and then, where is the guarantee that Togo will not go to Vladivostok?
            By the way, Andrey, your opinion: what was holding back the Japanese?
            1. +3
              April 18 2019 13: 27
              Quote: vladcub
              Sitting on the couch makes it easy for us to make out mistakes

              PPKS.
              My opinion: the breakthrough to Vladivostok was justified

              I am still inclined to believe that the best solution would be to conclude peace while the VTE was in Madagascar. The fact that the squadron could not cope with the "seizure of the sea" was obvious. There is no hope for the army either, not a single more or less successful battle. Is that, Port Arthur fought steadfastly, but even then fell.
              By the way, Andrey, your opinion: what was holding back the Japanese?

              I’m not Andrei, but I’ll venture to answer. hi Lack of resources. In fact, Japan has exhausted its reserves. All that was enough for her after Mukden and Tsushima was the capture of Sakhalin, which was completely un fortified and with small garrisons.
              1. +3
                April 18 2019 14: 12
                Dear "senior sailor", your opinion that peace should have been concluded while Rozhestvensky was in Madagascar relies on the knowledge of today, and then .... If St. Petersburg knew what awaited VTE would be immediately canceled.
                I don’t have a time machine and I don’t know how to arrange seances to ask Nikolay2 or S. Yu. Witte, but most likely they had thoughts of a truce with the Japanese. But for this, the desire of the Japanese was also needed. In my opinion, serious pressure from America was needed to start Russian-Japanese negotiations. Regarding: "not a single slightest successful battle" whether in the place of Kuropatkin Ranenkampf or A. I. Denikin or any other strong-willed commander still "grandmother wondered for two" how the events would go
                1. +2
                  April 18 2019 14: 54
                  Quote: vladcub
                  I don’t have a time machine and I don’t know how to arrange seances to ask Nikolai 2 or S. Yu. Witte, but most likely they had thoughts of a truce with the Japanese.

                  I won’t say anything about the tsar, he didn’t understand what he was thinking about, but Sergei Yulievich, on 28 of February, submitted to the emperor a most authentic letter in which he proposed to enter into negotiations on peaceful conditions with Japan. Let me remind you that VTE left Nosy Be 16 on March.
                  The fact that Kuropatkin did not cope with the command is obvious, but his March 5 was replaced by Linevich (with the same success)
                  As for Rannenkampf, Pavel Karlovich was seriously wounded in June and, although, by that time, he had left the hospital, he walked with difficulty. and he was promoted to lieutenant general quite a long time ago, so he would not have been appointed commander in chief for any. Well, Denikin just became a lieutenant colonel.
                  This is generally a problem, at that time there was not a sufficiently knowledgeable and authoritative military leader in the RIA, for which a sign would follow.
                  1. +1
                    April 18 2019 21: 37
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    This is generally a problem, at that time there was not a sufficiently knowledgeable and authoritative military leader in the RIA, for which a sign would follow.

                    You can only agree. And the RI fleet has the same trouble. Negative selection in the upper echelons is the first sign of great problems in the empire as a whole.
                    1. 0
                      April 19 2019 09: 52
                      RI fleet has the same trouble

                      But here I disagree. Oddly enough, but at the beginning of the RYA war the fleet had several rather authoritative admirals (whether everything is deserved is another question). Basically, of course, participants in the Russian-Turkish War of 1877-78. Skrydlov, Dubasov, Makarov ... Rozhdestvensky. In general, there was someone to choose from, but they were all far from the theater of operations and until they got there it was "late to rush".
                      Perhaps this is because, for all the shortcomings, the leadership of the fleet was not so inert. But in the army, this is a complete Achtung! While Vanovskiy was in charge of the War Ministry, they hindered all young and initiative people, and not out of malice, but in order not to offend the "old and honored generals". And Kuropatkin either did not understand the perniciousness of the situation, or could not cope with the routine.
                      So it turned out that there are "Skobelev's orderlies", but Mikhail Dmitrievich himself was not found.
                      1. 0
                        April 19 2019 21: 43
                        Quote: Senior Sailor
                        Perhaps this is because, with all the shortcomings, the leadership of the fleet was not so inert.

                        And here it is difficult to agree. Where did you notice this lack of inertia? In organizational matters? Well, the failure of the fleet concentration on D.V. there is the merit of the ZPR. The clear blunder with Nissin and Kasuga is the merit of the ZPR. Lack of clear planning in the construction of the fleet? Well, who besides the naval headquarters to ask? And what is better in tactics? That Vitgeft did not lift a finger to organize pressure on the enemy or even to catch up with the battleship disfigured after mines .. Before July 28, he was asked several times to explain his plans for the battle. No! "As I say so, we will sail!" Well, ZPR is the same naval commander (and perhaps even much worse). None of the naval admirals even thinks of the fact that a battle must be planned and the course of the battle must be managed somehow ..

                        And you say there is no inertia .. Yes, in the Navy there is generally darkness! Makarov alone left at least some impression and it was not so much with ideas as with his energetic energy! The remaining admirals seemed to be born boiled .. And do not think that once they were brave lieutenants ..
                      2. +1
                        April 19 2019 22: 04
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        What did you notice this lack of inertness

                        Well, at least in artillery. Compare the 254mm sea and coastal guns, which seem to be the same. And there are many such examples.
                        Lack of clear planning in the construction of the fleet?

                        Have you heard about the 1895-98 programs of the year?
                        By the way, the land explorers didn’t have that either. For the first time, more or less intelligible planning appeared under Rediger.
                        disfigured after mines armadillo catch up

                        But the army did not have such success.
                        According to the memoirs of Druzhinin, when the Russian troops for the first time really began to defend themselves, and not retreat after the first shots, the surprised Japanese climbed out of cover to see what kind of scumbags they stood up against them.
                        Yes, the fleet is generally dark!

                        This is something to compare.
                        admirals as if born boiled

                        Jessen and Bezobrazovy made at least a couple of successful raids, and what is in the army's assets, the fruitless "crawl" (according to Rannenkampf's apt definition) Mishchenko to Yingkou?
                        You generally have a strange perception. I didn’t write that everything was fine in the Navy, but it’s obvious that the army was full of P.
              2. 0
                April 18 2019 17: 14
                Colleague Ivan hi , maybe Russia should have followed (pardon the tautology) the famous Chinese proverb: "If you sit on the river bank for a long time, sooner or later the corpse of your enemy will float past you" ???
    2. +1
      April 18 2019 19: 45
      The best solution would be (and many people in the Republic of Ingushetia came to this when analyzing the results of that war) not to make a breakthrough to Vladivostok, but to rely on the operational base in Vietnam to take up the naval blockade of Japan, cruising war. The war with Japan continued, the Russian ground forces grew, Japan ran out of steam - including financially, American loans ended, and the forces of the land group too. Port Arthur and Manchuria have already been lost ... Using Rozhestvensky’s squadron as an argument in the negotiations in Portsmouth, Russia could achieve much better results and save the fleet ... and the honor of the fleet.
      If the Japanese decided to look for a battle away from their shores, then they would have problems with coal supply, this would have to be done either at sea, or to look for ports that would risk providing their services, to create reserves ... That would be all very constrained the maneuvers of the Japanese fleet and leveled its chances with the Russian fleet. The outcome would be multivariate.
      But the order was - to go and win in a general battle. The tsar really wanted victory ... well, some kind of, otherwise there was a revolution in Russia (with the money of the British and Yap), Arthur lost, the first squadron, Kwantung ... land battles a herd of sheep (a herd of sheep was called the commanders of the corps in the Far East, which all turned out to be Germans, barons and with the prefix "von") blew ...
      RI was doomed in that war - it was dragged into this adventure (Chinese affairs, Naval Forces in Port Arthur, CER, Manchurian and Korean plans) and created all the conditions for its defeat. But Tsushima became not just a fat point in this war, but also a fat point on the plans for the greatness of RI and the prologue of its impending death ... alas.
      1. 0
        April 18 2019 21: 24
        Hello, dear bayard!
        Quote: bayard
        The best solution would be (and many in RI came to this when analyzing the results of that war) not to make a breakthrough to Vladivostok, but relying on the operational base in Vietnam to engage in the Japanese naval blockade

        The option is interesting, but alas, unrealizable for many technical reasons. Alas, there was no operational base in Vietnam, it was only possible to park at an unequipped coast, that is, in terms of repairing ships, one could rely only on a floating workshop, which would be categorically insufficient in the event of a major breakdown. And then - how do you order this long-distance blockade to be carried out? Cruisers 2 and 3TOE were extremely small in number, in fact, only Oleg and Aurora could be sent into raiding, and even then only if they were provided with first-class coal. For Pearls and Emeralds, it is already a long way out, from Vietnam. These are not the forces with which one could count on anything. To withdraw the main forces into raiding is from a cannon at sparrows, since the key communications of the Japanese were not between Japan and the rest of the world, but between Japan and their land army on the continent, but an attempt to reach THESE communications would only lead to a battle with the Japanese United Fleet. And just look for a dozen armored ships for individual transports ...
        And if the fight with the Japanese, then what? Retreat to the shores of Vietnam? There it is impossible to fix it, a trifling hole could otherwise become an unsolvable problem. In general, this is absolutely not an option.
        1. 0
          April 19 2019 01: 00
          Greetings Andrew! As always, I read you with pleasure.
          The base of operations, of course, had to be bracketed. But it was this plan that Rozhdestvensky assumed, for raider tasks for the long-range blockade of Japan it was supposed to use auxiliary cruisers - armed transport steamers from the volunteer fleet - this was the role they were originally supposed to play. And the main forces of the fleet were to be repaired, rest, train and be ready for action.
          The very fact of having a strong fleet on the supply routes to Japan would be a weighty argument in negotiations with it. But finding him (the Russian fleet) and imposing a decisive battle was another problem - far from their bases, the Japanese could not maneuver for a long time and freely, and the Russian fleet, if he wanted to dodge, could always do it with his main forces.
          And don't underestimate the importance of the blockade. The entire Japanese fleet was built in England and other Europe, so spare parts and, for example, gun barrels (instead of shot ones) they received from there. And as a rule - through the Malak Strait. Several steamers with such barrels, spare parts, equipment and explosives were intercepted by Russian raiders. And although the actions to blockade Japan did not last long, they greatly complicated the position of Japan. All the English press then turned inside out about this - "the Russians took up piracy." If such a regime of isolation of Japan continued for a longer time, it would also affect the results of the peace talks. And perhaps not Russia would have to pay for the "maintenance of its prisoners of war", but Japan - compensation to Russia for the captured Port Arthur, the Dalny port, everything built by Russia in the Kwantung fortified region ... It seems fantastic, but under certain circumstances it could become a reality ...
          1. 0
            April 19 2019 01: 42
            So, if the fleet (and its two squadrons can be considered a fleet) Rozhestvensky continued its blockade actions long enough, then two more fresh battleships could (potentially) arrive in time to strengthen it - "Slava" (type "Borodino") and "Battleship Potemkin "(after changing the crew and getting in shape). This would sharply strengthen the core of the Russian fleet - six newest battleships - this is already a force, against 4 Japanese.
            Russian ships could, albeit in "field" conditions, carry out repairs, cleaning boilers, restore normal operation and combat readiness after a grueling transition ...
            And the Japanese would have to act away from their bases to spend motor resources and exhaust crews.
            Losses would begin on the land front - the Circum-Baikal road had already begun to work and the trains with troops and equipment were moving rhythmically.
            Everything could have turned out differently if Rozhdestvensky’s plan had been adopted and Tsushima’s shame could have been avoided. But a completely stupid order was given ...
            And in general, the whole history of the Russo-Japanese War is a complete conspiracy thesis, from the plot to the consequences. Like the Afghan war in our recent history.
            1. 0
              April 19 2019 10: 02
              Sorry, but "field repair" could lead to only one thing, and the Russian officers knew it very well that the crews would have "bad sailors and bad artisans." (in the absence of materials - just no artisans)
              And then, how could Potemkin join Rozhdestvensky? (and if he could, then why is he the only one?)
              1. 0
                April 19 2019 13: 55
                I wrote about "Slava" (type "Borodino" - a sister ship of Tsushima's battleships, who did not have time for the war) and "Potemkin. Two first-class battleships. Theoretically, they could also have time for the war, it lasted another half a year \ a year. Maybe some cruisers could have made it out of the completion ... If only they hadn't rushed to Tsushima like that, but had engaged in a reasonable blockade.
                However, one must take into account the policy of England, which threatened to intervene in the war on the side of Japan and their fleet was present in Southeast Asia ... Although a defeat from the British would be less shame ...
                And in general this (RY) war is extremely vile, all on intrigues and undercover dirty tricks. RI was not ready for this.
                1. 0
                  April 19 2019 14: 21
                  Quote: bayard
                  I wrote about "Slava" (type "Borodino" - the sister ship of Tsushima's battleships, who did not have time for the war) and "Potemkin

                  I understood. And therefore I ask how the armadillo under construction in Nikolaev could join the Second Squadron?
                  And if you find a way to get around the provisions of the London Convention of 1841. why only for "Potemkin", there were still a couple of modern battleships, not counting the relatively old "George the Pobednosets" (1893)
                  1. 0
                    April 19 2019 18: 04
                    Quote: Senior Sailor
                    And therefore I ask how the armadillo under construction in Nikolaev could join the Second Squadron?

                    The riot itself on "Potemkin" happened due to the fact that he was going to be sent to war with Japan, and not "rotten meat", which was just an excuse. There are enough materials about this.
                    And there was an agreement with Turkey - they did not mind if the Black Sea Fleet was reduced by one or two serious units.
                    And as for the other battleships, you need to look at what artillery they had - not everyone was still rearmed with new guns firing smokeless gunpowder. The battleships of the 3rd squadron under Tsushima fired black powder without any harm to the enemy and were completely useless for battle.
                    1. +2
                      April 19 2019 18: 19
                      Quote: bayard
                      The riot itself on "Potemkin" happened due to the fact that he was going to be sent to war with Japan, and not "rotten meat", which was just an excuse. There are enough materials about this.

                      Sorry, but this is nonsense.
                      Quote: bayard
                      And there was an agreement with Turkey

                      There was nothing like it. The Russian diplomatic department did indeed probe this possibility, but did not achieve anything satisfactory.
                      Quote: bayard
                      And as for the other battleships, you need to look at what artillery they had - not everyone was still rearmed with new guns firing smokeless gunpowder

                      Or maybe you will first learn the materiel, and then will broadcast?
                      "Three Saints" and "Rostislav" were originally armed with "new guns firing smokeless powder"
                      Quote: bayard
                      The battleships of the 3 squadron under Tsushima fired black powder without any harm to the enemy and were completely useless for battle.

                      And again the materiel! Of the four battleships of the third detachment, only one "shot black powder" - "Emperor Nicholas I". But in the second detachment there were two such ships: the battleship Navarin, and the cruiser Admiral Nakhimov.
                      In short, sadness and chagrin ...
                      1. +1
                        April 19 2019 20: 22
                        I am not an expert on the Russo-Japanese War and wrote based on my memory, not reference books. The whole point of what I said was that Russia had a chance to reduce or avoid the shame of Tsushima if S. Petersburg accepted Rozhdestvensky’s plan. But it happened differently. The rest may be food for lovers of alternative history, but I believe that Russia lost the war long before it began - when plans for the construction of the Pacific Fleet were being imposed. The Japanese received all the ordered ships until 1903 inclusive, and Russia - no earlier than the summer of 1904. Plus the geography, the unpreparedness of the Circum-Baikal Road, the refusal to finance the construction of naval vessels in Port Arthur, and much more. The rest are chronicles of the humiliation of a Great Power.
                        May God grant us to remember those lessons from now on.
          2. 0
            April 19 2019 10: 17
            The very fact of having a strong fleet on the supply routes of Japan would be a weighty argument ...
            And though the actions on the blockade of Japan did not last long[b] [/ b], they greatly complicated the situation of Japan ...

            Here's the answer - the goons of the Russian Empire are thin. After angry demarches, Britain always followed the orders "to stop raiding," "to release the ships" ... although the actions were strictly within the framework of maritime law.
            And for the "blockade" there is no need to go to Vietnam - Souda Bay (Crete) is closer ...)) But yes, the further to the Far East, the less there will be fake invoices like "cargo for India" ...
            1. +1
              April 19 2019 14: 00
              Quote: anzar
              And for the "blockade" there is no need to go to Vietnam - Souda Bay (Crete) is closer ...)) But yes, the further to the Far East, the less there will be fake invoices like "cargo for India" ...

              Well then, it was easier to immediately declare war on England and send troops to India. So the sepoys would have squealed with delight.
              Russia lost that war in preparation for it. And already in the course of it, no heroism could compensate for the numerical superiority, strategic initiative and GEOGRAPHY.
              1. 0
                April 19 2019 14: 11
                Well then, it was easier to immediately declare war on England and send troops to India ...

                Considered and this (in the framework of AI))) The objections were the same as the Far East Logistics. Adequate supply, only by sea, and there Brit. fleet ... And India is big, easy to get caught ...
                But this doesn’t reach the point- the Russian exporters of the Tsar’s bread themselves will finish off ((
      2. 0
        April 19 2019 13: 31
        Quote: bayard
        If the Japanese decided to look for a battle away from their shores, then they would have problems with coal supply

        and they had to be forced to choose such an option, and for this it was necessary to deceive the enemy, for example, by demonstrating a breakthrough elsewhere — through the Sangarsky Strait ... there were a lot of empty TRs at ZPR — they could send accompanied by low-value armored units, choosing the right time to approach the zone visibility from the shore in the evening ... request Yes, and he could just send VSKR from the other side of Father Tsushima - let Togo twitch ...
        1. 0
          April 19 2019 14: 14
          They wouldn’t have slipped. And there would be no sense from them in Vladivostok. And hovering over Japan from the south and blocking communications, Russia could supply and replenish the fleet through open communications. Time would work against the Japanese. Their industry was weak and military supplies went by sea.
          1. 0
            April 19 2019 16: 26
            Quote: bayard
            Do not slip

            almost slipped - 2TOE detected CR as much as the 3rd line of patrols, moreover, due to the lighted gosp. ship ... so go ZPR straits at night - who knows ... request
            Quote: bayard
            And there would be no sense from them in Vladivostok

            for peace negotiations - that’s it ...
            Quote: bayard
            And hovering over Japan from the south and blocking communications, Russia could supply and replenish the fleet through open communications.

            have already answered - there is no repair base, any damage incapacitates the ship ... and communication could block England ... request
            Quote: bayard
            Their industry was weak and military supplies went by sea.

            that’s the question - why were 4 APRC 2TOE unable to do anything? bully
  4. 0
    April 17 2019 22: 13
    Interestingly, if you take the data PP. Levitsky, saying that “Pearls” needed to add 1-6 revolutions per minute in order to raise the speed to the 7 node, it turns out that while Saigon was staying, “Pearls” could have developed the 23 node, or so.

    I wonder where again such a free conclusion? Levitsky only stated that he lacked 35 revolutions before full speed, which he still could not gain. Khromov pointed out that they could not catch up with Rion (the usual Dobroflot steamer in general), although they tried. And he emphasized this by indicating that the harbor was empty when he finally reached:

    After an unsuccessful attempt to contact the commander of the cruiser “Diana” (having waited several hours at the mouth of the Donna River, they left with nothing) “Pearls” lagged behind the “Rion”. Caught up in full swing, however, to develop more than 18 bonds. failed because the stokers lacked practice. Returning to Van Fong, the cruiser discovered an empty harbor: both squadrons had already met and crossed to Kuaba Bay.


    Inexperienced stokers are already a completely transparent excuse. The ship spent 9 months on a hike, burned 7000 tons of coal and failed to lift the vapor overnight. It is more correct to consider that these unfortunate 18-19 knots were the maximum of Pearls by that time.
    1. +3
      April 18 2019 04: 49
      Quote: Saxahorse
      It is more correct to consider that these unfortunate 18-19 nodes were the maximum of Pearls by then

      Man, you are wrong.
      If "Emerald", leaving the Japanese, developed 21 knot, why should the "Pearl" have a maximum speed by 2-3 knots less?
      1. 0
        April 18 2019 21: 29
        Quote: Comrade
        If the "Emerald", leaving the Japanese, developed 21 knots, why should the "Pearl" have a maximum speed by 2-3 knots less?

        It is quite possible. Due to continuous breakdowns, mechanics from under these pipes, refrigerators and boilers Emerald simply did not get out. The pearls didn’t fall apart as openly as the Emerald, but the diseases were essentially the same. Poor materials, manufacturing and assembly errors. Yes, and the Emerald frankly didn’t say for long, he managed to give his full swing then, and the Pearls had to chase after Rion all night.
    2. 0
      April 18 2019 21: 30
      Quote: Saxahorse
      I wonder where again such a free conclusion?

      From the report of the ship commander :)))
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Levitsky only stated that he did not have enough 35 revolutions to the full speed, which he could not dial.

      Well, you can certainly quote this part of his report - where Levitsky says that he tried, but could not reach the speed of more than 18 nodes. I am silent, that 18 knots, actually not the maximum speed developed by pearls, but the AVERAGE speed throughout the run
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Inexperienced firemen are a completely transparent excuse.

      There is a nuance - the commander has nothing and no one to excuse himself for :) "Pearl" survived, there could be no complaints against Levitsky. Perhaps a departure to Manila, but even then he followed the admiral, so his alibi is reinforced concrete.
      1. -1
        April 18 2019 21: 49
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        From the report of the ship commander :)))

        You are our dreamer. laughing

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I’m silent, that 18 knots, actually not the maximum speed developed by the pearls, but the AVERAGE speed throughout the run

        Of course the average. But the problem is that he never managed to catch up with the Rion steamer overnight :) And this means that up to 18 knots he did not accelerate every hour. Sadly, in general, everything is with Pearls.

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        There is a nuance - the commander has nothing and no one to otmazyvatsya :)

        Come on! However, Levitsky was ashamed to ask the steamer Rion to slow down. And you say "not why" laughing
        1. 0
          April 18 2019 22: 19
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Of course the average. But the problem is that he could not catch up with the ship Rion during the night :)

          Saksaors, please specify the document in which it would be said that this pursuit generally had a place to be :)))) I didn’t find it :))) When you find it, then appeal to the mythical pursuits
          Quote: Saxahorse
          Come on! However, Levitsky was ashamed to ask the steamer Rion to slow down. And you say "not why"

          Another blunder of Saksakhors - the report was written after the Battle of Tsushima, who would criticize Levitsky for not catching up with someone in a non-combat situation? And why does this "someone" not scold Levitsky for the poor training of the quality givers on the ship entrusted to him, if he really wants to scold? It turns out that hiding one reason for hauling, he offers another? :)))))
          You, Saksaors, think a little before you write. Well, just a little :))) And do not judge the commanders of the Russian ships by themselves - they still knew how to fold 2 + 2
          1. -1
            April 18 2019 22: 40
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Saksaors, please specify the document in which it would be said that this pursuit generally had a place to be :)))) I didn’t find it :))) When you find it, then appeal to the mythical pursuits

            Amazingly, I quoted the monograph of Khromov, to which you yourself are referring right and left. How did you succeed when you did not find her? laughing

            The difference is that Khromov directly says, "We were catching up at full speed, but it was not possible to develop more than 18 knots." not mentioned. If you remember that the Dnieper and the Emerald also went for a walk, you can guess that there was an episode with Rion after all.

            Well, by your efforts I wanted to look at this very document of Levitsky. Does it really exist or did you invent it? Where can I read it?
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +1
              April 19 2019 00: 52
              Quote: Saxahorse
              I wanted to look at this very document of Levitsky. Does it really exist or have you and it been invented? Where can I read it?

              Enlighten yourself.
              1. 0
                April 19 2019 22: 38
                Did you pay attention to the fifth paragraph of these readings, where Levitsky reports that during the tests Pearl showed a "MEDIUM SPEED" of 22.5 knots? :) I guess it became obvious what Levitsky meant by talking about an "average speed" of 18 knots .. This is what he was able to squeeze out of Pearl that night. :)
                1. 0
                  April 20 2019 01: 20
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  This is what he was able to squeeze out of the Pearl that night. :)

                  Khromov does not say that the action took place at night.
                  Kolya, why are you lying to us from scratch?
            3. +2
              April 19 2019 01: 44
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Khromov directly says, "We were catching up at full speed, but we failed to develop more than 18 knots."
              The problem is that Zhemchug did not manage to catch up with the steamer Rion during the night :) And this means that it did not accelerate to 18 knots every hour. "

              The floor is given to Lieutenant E. A. von-Berends, an artillery officer of the II rank "Rion" cruiser.

              Now attention, a question.
              How did it happen that "Pearl", going on 18 knots, could not catch up with the "Rion" going on 6 nodes?
              1. 0
                April 19 2019 22: 42
                Why only at 6 nodes? Rion sometimes even stood :) I see no reason not to trust Khromov in the description of this episode. If you have a description of Lieutenant Rion of this campaign to Saigon, let's read it together. And the fact that at night Rion sometimes went to 6 knots does not yet say that he could not give those 19.5 which, as it was believed, these cruisers had by the beginning of the REV.
                1. 0
                  April 19 2019 23: 05
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  I see no reason not to trust Khromov in the description of this episode.

                  Yes, no question, refer to the specific document from which Khromov took it - and that's that.
                  1. 0
                    April 19 2019 23: 48
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Yes, no question, refer to the specific document from which Khromov took it - and that's that.

                    Do you propose just writing a new monograph on the same topic? It’s not a question, I’ll survive until retirement then I’ll probably do something similar. There is no hope left for you laughing
                    1. 0
                      April 20 2019 07: 37
                      Quote: Saxahorse
                      Offer only to write a new monograph on the same topic?

                      no, just provide the document. This is not a monograph :)))
                      1. 0
                        April 21 2019 23: 45
                        I don’t understand what you are trying to achieve. Want to refute Khromov? But you have the whole cycle about "pebbles" built on his monograph. There is no reason to reject the Rion episode while acknowledging all of Khromov's other material. Your attempts to cut out exactly those paragraphs of the author that you "don't like" are simply inadequate. negative
            4. +1
              April 19 2019 07: 48
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Amazingly, I quoted Khromov’s monograph

              That is, Saxahorse is unable to understand the difference between the DOCUMENT and the work of the historian. Sad but predictable.
              Okay, try the second time. Please provide a document from which it follows that there was a Pearl chase after Rion. This may be an extract from the logbook, a squadron officer report, etc. etc.
              1. -1
                April 19 2019 22: 50
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                That is, the Saxahorse is unable to understand the difference between the DOCUMENT and the work of the historian.

                Khromov’s monograph is a document for us. Because it is precisely known by whom, when and where it was written and published. That is the first sign of the document. It is strange that an economist by profession does not know such things :) When rejecting Khromov’s monograph, you must refute all the primary documents that he used to write it. And bring convincing evidence of your point of view.

                It would be strange if for a person who could not even calculate the weight of the Emerald correctly, such work suddenly failed. laughing
                1. 0
                  April 19 2019 23: 03
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Khromov's monograph for us is the document. Because it is known exactly by whom, when and where it was written and published.

                  Brad seve cable. Because with such a "definition" and some speed-info with the article "Bigfoot - the fruit of the unholy connection of Bill Clinton and the Chupacabra" is also a document - after all, it is known exactly who, when and where it was written and published.
                  Saksaors, you do not give peace to Oleg Popov's laurels? So it is necessary to the circus, and not on the forum dedicated to historical materials.
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Rejecting Khromov’s monograph, you must refute all the primary documents that he used when writing it.

                  Nonsense. It is enough to cite documents that refute his conclusions, especially since he does not refer to the specific source from which he took these data in the text. To put it simply, if suddenly there is a desire to prove that Bigfoot cannot be the son of Bill Clinton and the Chupacabra, enough to prove that a person and an animal cannot have offspring, but running around looking for "documents" from which the author of speed-info made such conclusions is completely optional :))))
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  It would be strange if a person who could not even the weight of the Emerald correctly counted

                  I cheated him correctly :)))) Just because of the complete inability to a simple account you are not able to understand this
                  1. 0
                    April 19 2019 23: 52
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Nonsense. It is enough to cite documents refuting his conclusions, especially since he does not refer in the text to the specific source from which he took this data.

                    You yourself couldn’t bring a single figure refuting Khromov :) Even your 23 knots are your own invention laughing

                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    I cheated him correctly :)))) Just because of the complete inability to a simple account you are not able to understand this

                    The word "cheated" you have chosen fits here in the best way! "Mathematician" you are ours! laughing
                  2. 0
                    April 20 2019 00: 51
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    It is enough to cite documents refuting his conclusions, especially since he does not refer in the text to the specific source from which he took this data.

                    Dear Andrew,
                    in my opinion, we are just feeding the troll once again, which is our common old acquaintance and opponent.
            5. +1
              April 19 2019 07: 52
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Well, by your efforts I wanted to look at this very document of Levitsky. Does it really exist or did you invent it? Where can I read it?

              laughing good Do you want to say that you do not even have reports from the commanders of the ships of the squadron ?! :)))))) Well educate yourself, "expert" https://dlib.rsl.ru/viewer/01005079885#?page=46
              1. 0
                April 19 2019 22: 57
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You don't even have reports from the commanders of the ships of the squadron ?! :)))))) Well educate yourself, "expert" https://dlib.rsl.ru/viewer/01005079885#?page=46

                But thank you very much for the link! I confess I didn’t even think of looking for them there :(

                And the material is delicious :) Did you notice the phrase of Levitsky that during the tests Pearl showed an AVERAGE speed of 22.5 knots? This is what he called the maximum speed in general. I think now the translation of its "average" 18 knots is also clear. :)

                Some pearls of Levitsky are directly touching! For example about the fact that due to the high spirit of the team "reluctantly went ashore" laughing

                Well, the cherry on the cake at the very end of his testimony. Where he writes that "I think for a short time we could give up to 20 knots"! You really didn’t notice it when we were told tales about 23 nodes again? laughing

                Well, for the link again, no kidding, thanks! I so inadvertently lost this evidence several years ago. Now I know where they can be read.
                1. 0
                  April 20 2019 01: 37
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Did you notice Levitsky’s phrase that during the tests Pearls showed the average speed of the 22.5 node? This is what he called the maximum speed.

                  Kolenka, you got excited for no reason, everything is written correctly there. We read about the maximum speed for Alliluyev and Bogdanov
            6. 0
              April 19 2019 12: 48
              You are absolutely right: Andrey invents everything
        2. +1
          April 19 2019 09: 40
          Do you really want to surprise Andrey that he is wrong?
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. +1
    April 18 2019 10: 53
    +++, very interesting. Thanks to the respected author, I learned that there were also exercises like "red against blue"))
    1. "Svetlana" and auxiliary cruisers "Kuban", "Terek" and "Ural" - reconnaissance detachment.
    2. Armored "Oleg", "Aurora", "Diamond", the old armored "Dmitry Donskoy" and auxiliary "Rion" and "Dnieper" - a cruising squad ....

    This division was a bit surprising, because the Svetlana is incomparably more powerful than the Diamond, and their speeds are the same.
    1. 0
      April 18 2019 12: 02
      colleague, I apologize for the offtopic, did you receive my letter?
      1. 0
        April 18 2019 14: 47
        Yes, and answered 9.04 In addition to the "reply" button, I duplicated the address with a copy to [email protected]
        Now I will send again only to the second ...
        1. 0
          April 18 2019 14: 59
          Hmm ... I saw nothing there request
          1. 0
            April 18 2019 15: 13
            Now copied here ...
  7. +2
    April 18 2019 13: 36
    Andrei Nikolaevich, I used to have a low opinion of Admiral Rozhdestvensky, and gradually, thanks to you, I changed my opinion about him. Of course, he is not a naval commander with a capital letter, but he was a decent man and the fact that he was able in those conditions to bring so many ships across half the world and not to lose anyone testifies to him.
    Andrei Nikolaevich, you LOVE and KNOW the history of the fleet, and how do you explain the contradictions: Khromov writes one, Levitsky recalls the other, and Kostenko writes the third. Involuntarily the question arises, who is lying? Probably there should be ship logs, documents of that time
    1. 0
      April 18 2019 21: 43
      Greetings, dear Svyatoslav!
      Quote: vladcub
      and how do you explain the contradictions: Khromov writes one, Levitsky remembers the other, and Kostenko writes the third.

      As for Kostenko and Novikov, I am sure that there was pure conjuncturism, "Rozhdestvensky as an allegory to rotten tsarism" - they portrayed him as completely different from what he really was. As for Khromov, I can't say anything here, but I must note that our authors who write about ships, even such masters as Vinogradov, are often VERY inaccurate in some particular issues. Still, I would like to note this - the same Khromov gives correctly, roughly, 95% of his material, and in 5% he is mistaken. It can be assumed that while working with historical materials, he somewhere did not understand something, did not rewrite it, or someone translated it from German in the wrong way, well, in general, he was mistaken quite in good faith. Finally, there are errors of judgment, when the author comes to the same conclusion based on the same documents, when other interpretations are possible. Cases of deliberate lies, which cannot be justified by carelessness or something else, I saw mainly in Novikov and Kostenko. Well, and Japanese historiography, of course, but there is a desire to retouch the inconvenient moments for themselves.
      Quote: vladcub
      Probably there should be ship logs, documents of that time.

      They are there, but they contain all the information and briefly and often the information contained in them does not help us find answers to interesting questions.
      Although ... well, let's say, the classic version of the battle at Shantung - severe damage to Japanese ships is described, as an example is given of hitting Mikasa, Nissin, Yakumo, it is mentioned that less shells hit the Tsarevich than Mikasa, and the conclusion is made that the Russians were on the verge of breaking through. While in fact, in the documents (reports on the hits of the commanders of Russian ships) it is clear that the Japanese, in fact, only these 3 ships suffered a little noticeably, and the Russians - all the ships of the squadron, and that the "Tsesarevich" actually suffered no less than Mikasa, and in general more shells hit Peresvet than in the entire Japanese squadron combined. There is already either an outright lie of the authors, or simply unwillingness to work with documents
      1. +2
        April 19 2019 13: 16
        Andrey Nikolaevich (right?), Thanks again for your stories, they are interesting. The answer began in the morning, and I write the tablet "dead" on a new one. 1) You won't get a real assessment of Rozhdestvensky from "Surf": a) for the then sailor, all admirals are sinister and big byaks. Rozhdestvensky was not held in high esteem.
        2) Kostenko, I confess right away, read only: "Oryol" in Tsushima ", but now I cannot remember who the author is. As far as I remember, the book was not mocked in Soviet Russia. And if so, then there is a chance that it will not be so biased
    2. +1
      April 21 2019 07: 43
      The naval commander and combat commander are different concepts. And the consequences are different.
      The Spanish-American War, which some researchers consider the analogue of the Russo-Japanese War.
      Admiral Server also safely brought his squadron to Cuba, without losing a single destroyer.
      What next ?
  8. +1
    April 19 2019 13: 44
    Quote: vladcub
    Kostenko, I confess right away, read only: "Oryol" in Tsushima ", but now I cannot remember who the author is. As far as I remember, the book was not mocked in Soviet Russia

    Uh ...



    1. 0
      April 19 2019 23: 02
      "On the Eagle in Tsushima" - A smart book, in many ways even more interesting than Novikov. And you are right, it has been published several times.
      1. +2
        April 20 2019 08: 41
        To a certain extent, the novel by Alexei Silych is secondary in relation to the work of Vladimir Polievktovich. It was from Kostenko that he borrowed many blunders, which later became "immutable truths" in the eyes of some.
        But Tsushima is interesting primarily because it is a view of events from the side of lower ranks. Many officers, not alien to literature, left their memories of this tragic campaign, but there is only one sailor. And Novikov, whatever one may say, owned a word and managed to create a very epic picture, colored with many colors. I remember it struck at one time that the people who served on the "Eagle" lamented that they could not remember the stoker Baklanov (and EMNIP Vasya Drozd). But Silych invented it, but described it in such a way that it was easier for eyewitnesses to doubt their memory, this character turned out to be so alive and characteristic.
        You just need to remember that Novikov’s gaze is from the battalion’s, and Kostenko’s from the hold. And do not demand more from them.
  9. +1
    April 19 2019 20: 29
    Quote: bayard
    I am not an expert on the Russo-Japanese War

    I understood.

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