Why ZP Rozhdestvensky not used cruisers "Pearl" and "Emerald" in Tsushima for other purposes?

191
Jewels of the Russian Imperial fleet. "Pearls" and "Emerald". The night from 14 to 15 in May was calm, but the next morning the Russians found the old Japanese armored cruiser Izumi near the squadron. It happened “at the end of 7's hour” when observers of our squadron saw an unknown and very poorly visible ship at a distance of about 6 miles from the right beam of the flagship Suvorov. More precisely, approximately in the direction to 2 rumba behind the beam, and let me remind you that one rumba corresponds to 11,25 hail.


Izumi in Sasebo, 1908


It must be said that a detailed description of the events preceding the beginning of the battle will again lead us very far from stories armored cruisers 2-rank "Pearl" and "Emerald". However, the author does not see the possibility of omitting this period. The fact is that Z.P. Rozhestvensky before the collision of the main forces had several interesting opportunities to use his cruisers, and he, in fact, refused it. So, for example, both “Pearl” and “Emerald” were specialized ships for conducting reconnaissance in the interests of the main forces, but as such Z.P. Rozhestvensky did not use them. Why?

Alas, it is absolutely impossible to give any comprehensive answer to this question without an in-depth analysis of Z.P. Rozhdestvensky and his actions from the early morning of May 14 until the beginning of the battle of the main forces. In essence, the passive role of "Pearls" and "Emerald" during this period of time can only be explained if all the intentions of the Russian commander at that time are understood. Therefore, one should not think that the author, describing all this, deviates from the topic - on the contrary!

Main events of the first half of the day 14 May


Izumi discovered the Russian squadron on 06.18 in Russian time, and at about the same time it was discovered by itself. In this case, on our ships, the Japanese cruiser was observed poorly, occasionally losing sight of, and Z.P. Rozhestvensky believed that the Japanese cruiser did not come closer to our ships than on the 6 miles. The Japanese themselves believed that they were held in 4-5 miles. Most likely, the distance between the Izumi and the Russian fleet was maintained at the limit of visibility, when the opponents could barely watch each other.

Around 07.00, the reconnaissance detachment, which was marching in the head of the Russian squadron consisting of Svetlana, Almaz and the auxiliary cruiser Ural, moved to the rear of the Russian system, and Pearls and Emerald moved forward. It was perfectly logical, if not for the extremely small distance separating them from the lead ships of the squadron. According to the commander of "Pearl", his cruiser took up a position in 4 points from the squadron course (45 degrees) and only in 8 cable from "Suvorov". Thus, it turns out that "Pearls" pushed forward a distance of less than a mile! And even then - not for long, because somewhere in the interval from 09.00 to 11.00, on a signal from Suvorov, Pearls took a place on its right traverse. "Emerald" did the same evolution as the "Pearl", but on the other side of the course of the squadron, that is, to the left of its left column, which led the "Emperor Nicholas I".

According to the report of P.P. Levitsky, commander of the "Pearl", on 08.40 his cruiser drove away the Japanese junk that was heading to Tsushima Island.

Around 09.40, that is, 3 hours after the enemy warship was discovered on the Russian squadron, the 3-I combat squadron appeared from the north (“Chin-Yen”, “Matsushima”, “Itsukushima” and “Hasidate”). Japanese forward-looking 3 units found the Russian squadron a bit earlier - in 09.28. This Japanese detachment also kept a distance, limited to observation, which, however, is completely unsurprising.

Seeing a detachment of the Japanese, ZP Rozhestvensky decides to start rebuilding into battle order, but he does it very slowly. At about 09.45 (later 09.40 but before 10.00), the right column, that is, the 1-th and 2-th armored troops receive the admiral's order to increase the speed to 11 nodes, which is what they do. As a result, the right column of the Russian fleet gradually overtakes the left column and transports.

At some point in time, the Pearls discovered a Japanese steamer ahead of itself, crossing the course of the Russian squadron, and at full speed went to it for "clarification", making a warning shot from an 47-mm gun. The steamer stopped and tried to lower the boat, but because of the rather strong excitement, it broke against his own hull. “Pearls” approached the ship on a Polkabeltov, the Japanese were visible, kneeling and praying, as well as making other gestures, which the cruiser commander regarded as a plea for mercy. However, offending the non-combatant was not part of the plans of P.P. Levitsky - explaining (with signs) to the crew that the latter should leave, where he came from, he achieved that the steamer quickly departed in the opposite direction. Then "Pearl" returned to its designated place. Unfortunately, when exactly this happened, it is completely unclear: the official history reports that it was in 10.20, but PP himself. Levitsky reported in his report about the fight that he was heading to 09.30 to intercept the steamer. And he finally confused the case, indicating in the testimony of the Investigation Commission that "Pearl" intercepted a Japanese ship in 11.00!

Further timekeeping, alas, also suffers from inaccuracies. Our official historiography reports that in 10.35, destroyers on the right and left ahead of the course of the Russian squadron were found on the Russian squadron. In fact, they were not there, but by an alarm signal, the Emerald moved from the left traverse of the squadron to its right side and entered the Pearl wake, and the destroyers of the 1 squad joined them. Thus, a small detachment of light forces was ready at any moment to move forward, if the Japanese destroyers launched an attack - which, naturally, would not follow. A little later, the 3-y combat unit of the Japanese was lost sight of, so that by 11.00 was given an order to dine open.

It seems that everything is clear, but the problem is that the reports of the commanders of "Pearl" and "Emerald" directly contradict this conclusion of the workers of the historical commission. Both documents report that the Emerald moved to the right side of the Russian squadron later, during a short skirmish of our main forces with Japanese cruisers.

That is, if, for the reconstruction of those distant events, we still take the reports of commanders as a basis, then this was the case. In 11.05, the new Japanese scouts appeared - "Chitose", "Kasagi", "Niytaka" and "Tsushima", but then again disappeared in the fog. And at the same time, the right column of the Russian squadron took the rumba to the left on the 2 - it had already moved forward enough to head the ships of N.I. Nebogatov. However, the Japanese ships again appeared in 11.10, both units together. Five minutes later, the Russian squadron was lined up in battle order - the wake column, and a random shot was fired from the squadron battleship Oryol. A short skirmish ensued with the Japanese cruisers, while the Russians believed that the distance between the fighting was 39 cable. It is, of course, about the distance to the "Suvorov", it is clear that for other ships of the long wake column it could be different. The Japanese believed they had opened fire from a distance of approximately 43 cable. There were apparently no hits on both sides, and the Japanese immediately retreated, turning the X-ROM points (8 degrees) to the left, so that the fire was soon stopped by both sides.


Squadron battleship "Eagle"


So, the commander of "Emerald" reported that his cruiser, at the beginning of the shootout, that is, in 11.15, was still on the left traverse of the Emperor Nicholas I, however, when he started the fight, in full accordance with his previous by order, he took a position on the right beam of the Oslyab, that is, so that the formation of the Russian battleships was between the Emerald and the enemy. During the execution of this maneuver, the cruiser was fired from aft guns. The report of the commander of "Pearl" confirms his words.

According to the author, we are most likely talking about some kind of delusion of the historical commission, because the only way to somehow reconcile both versions is that the Emerald, indeed, in 10.35, goes to the right traverse of the Russian squadron, and columns, then, for some reason, returned to the "Emperor Nicholas I." But it looks nonsense, and besides - not having confirmation.

The shootout took no more than 10 minutes, that is, up to about 11.25, and then the Japanese cruisers were out of sight. Then, at 11.30, at Zhemugue, they saw, or thought that they saw, enemy cruisers crossing the course of the Russian squadron from left to right. “Pearls” gave them a shot from the nose 120-mm gun, wishing to attract the admiral’s attention, but received no instructions in response to this.

For a while, nothing noteworthy happened, but in 12.05 the Russian squadron, believing that it had reached the middle of the eastern part of the Korean Strait, turned left and lay on the famous NO23 course. At the same time, the Japanese squad of 3 was on the right of the new course of the Russian ships, and now they were coming closer, so the Japanese commanders preferred to retreat.

Taking advantage of the fact that the Russian squadron was left without supervision for a while, and assuming that since the Japanese patrols were retreating to the north, the main forces of Kh. Togo and Z.P. Rozhestvensky decided to rebuild the ships 1-th and 2-th armored units (and not just 1-th, as it is written in a number of sources) with front systems, but instead, for reasons that we consider below, the squadron was again in two march columns. However, this system was different from the marching one, because now the 2 armored detachment led by Oslyabye was not in the right column, behind the 1 armored detachment, but headed the left column. During this unsuccessful attempt to rebuild, it seems that the Emerald left the traverse Oslyabi and moved behind the Pearls, which resulted in an improvised detachment of light forces from the two cruisers and the 1 of the destroyer detachment on the right flank of the Russian squadron. At the same time, the head “Pearl” followed the traverse of the “Suvorov”. And so, in general, it lasted until the meeting of the main forces of ZP Rozhestvensky and H. Togo.


"Pearls" and "Dmitry Donskoy" at the Revel Review 27 September 1904


Oddities in the actions of the commander


Of course, to the above, a lot of different questions arise. Brief summary of the above is as follows: the commander of the Russian squadron Z.P. Rozhestvensky, finding in the early morning that the Japanese cruiser was watching the forces entrusted to him, made no effort to destroy it, or at least to drive it away. Although at his disposal were quite high-speed cruisers: "Oleg", "Pearl", "Emerald", and, perhaps, "Svetlana". He knew that the Japanese were actively talking on the radio, but he explicitly forbade them from interfering with this. Z.P. Rozhestvensky continued to march for a long time, although at any moment one could expect the appearance of the enemy, and when he nevertheless began rebuilding into a wake column, he did it very slowly, so that the rebuilding itself took him an hour or maybe even more (not an hour and a half but about that). Then, when the squadron finally rebuilt, he soon for some reason broke the resulting wake column with such difficulty and again divided its battleships into unequal parts on the 2, with the strongest 1's armored detachment going now in proud loneliness. Z.P. Rozhestvensky did not order to drive away the enemy cruisers, the skirmish began by chance, and not at his command. And, among other things, the Russian commander for some reason did not try to push his high-speed cruisers forward for reconnaissance!

As we said earlier, Z.P. Rozhestvensky was much reproached for not making an attempt to conduct long-range reconnaissance by cruisers, which meant sending them several dozen or even a hundred miles ahead. He replied that such use of cruisers was completely meaningless for him, since he could not give any new information about the Japanese, which he would not know and so. But the forwarding of such a detachment forward could have led to its death, since the cruisers 2 and 3, TOE, were much inferior to those of the Japanese. In addition, the appearance of such a detachment would have warned the Japanese about the imminent appearance of the Russian squadron, that is, it alerted them ahead of time. The reasons for the Russian commander were recognized by the authors of the Russian official history of the Russian-Japanese war at sea as absolutely true, and the idea of ​​long-distance intelligence was counterproductive. And this is despite the fact that the official historiography, in general, is not at all inclined to defend Z.P. Rozhestvensky - claims from the historical commission to him are more than enough.

But Z.P. Rozhestvensky, rejecting long-range intelligence, did not organize close-range intelligence either, did not advance his cruisers, and at least the Pearl with the Emerald was not several miles ahead. And these are the compilers of the “Russian-Japanese War 1904-1905” considered a very gross mistake by the commander. The authors of this respectable work quite rightly point out that the rebuilding from marching to battle order is Z.P. Rozhdestvensky would need, given the time required to feed signals, of the order of 20 minutes, while his squadron would follow at a speed of the order of 9 nodes. But during this time, the Japanese squadron, if it were suddenly ahead of the Russian forces, could move towards our ships at a speed of 15 nodes. Accordingly, the convergence rate could be up to 24 nodes and in 20 minutes both squadrons, following towards each other, would converge on 8 miles. And the visibility limit that morning barely reached 7 miles - it turns out that if the Japanese had rushed towards the Russians immediately after visual detection of the latter, ZP Rozhestvensky, in principle, could not have time to reorganize, and the Japanese fleet would have fallen upon a squadron that had not finished rebuilding!

Thus, we see that in the first half of 14 May, another Russian commander could have found a lot of work for “Pearls” and “Emerald”, but Z. P. Rozhdestvensky kept them in close proximity to the main forces. Why?

Let's start with "Izumi".

Why ZP Rozhdestvensky not ordered to sink "Izumi"?


Of course, it would be possible to send a detachment of the most high-speed cruisers to chase the Izumi, but what would it be? The problem was that, according to the Russian commander, the Japanese cruiser was about 6 miles from its flagship.

Suppose that Z.P. Rozhestvensky would send the most high-speed cruisers, the Pearls and the Emerald, to destroy the Izumi. In fact, this idea is not as absurd as it may seem at first glance, because Izumi was lighter than Russian cruisers - its normal displacement did not reach 3 000 t. But the armament, although it was somewhat stronger than that of a single Russian cruisers - 2 * 152-mm and 6 * 120-mm guns against 8 * 120-mm guns on the "Pearl" or "Emerald", but still the number of trunks twice lost to both cruisers.



Suppose that both Russian cruisers gathered in a small detachment and managed to get close to the Japanese ship on the same 6 miles before the commander of Izumi understood what was going on, and began to retreat. But Izzumi's passport speed was 18 nodes. And, if we assume that Pearl and Emerald could give 22 knots, and Izumi could not develop a full turn, having no more than 16-17 nodes, then in that case the ships would approach the speed of 5- 6 miles per hour. Thus, in order to at least get closer to the distance from which one could expect to inflict any damage on the Japanese cruiser (30 cables), the most high-speed Russian cruisers would need half an hour, for which they would have retired from the squadron to 11 miles, that is, they would have gone beyond the line of sight and were left to themselves. But even then you can talk not about a decisive fight, but only about shooting in a pair of 120-mm guns. In order to get close, it is enough to fight in full board, it took almost as much more time. Not to mention that Pearl and Emerald could not support the 22 node for a long time (actually, the admiral doubted that they and 20 would be able to withstand for a long time), and Izumi might have been able to and more 17 nodes.

Was it possible to count on the fact that behind the Izumi, in 20-30 miles away there are no other Japanese ships? Especially considering the fact that the entire experience of the Port Arthur siege suggested that the Japanese use not single intelligence officers for reconnaissance, but entire detachments? Could Russian cruisers manage to return to the squadron after the battle, even if successful, having overcome the 20-30 separating them for miles, or even more, because the squadron, of course, should not have waited for them, but continued to go to Vladivostok? And if two Russian cruisers were cut off from the main forces by a large detachment of enemy cruisers? Small armored cruisers did not have great combat stability, and the occasional successful hit by the Japanese could reduce the course of one of them. What was to be done in this case - to throw the “wounded animal”, one might say, to certain death?

As a matter of fact, it was probably these reasons that Z.P. Rozhestvensky, when he said: “I did not order the cruisers to drive it away and believed that the commander of the cruisers did not make the order on their own, sharing my thoughts about the possibility of being carried away by the pursuit in the direction of the enemy’s superior forces, which were nearby, obscured.”

And it's not that Rear Admiral OA Enquist was allegedly in some kind of “warlike heat”, over which the authors of the “Russian-Japanese War 1904-1905 years” allowed themselves to joke, and that having started an artillery duel with Izumi and beyond the appearance of the main forces of the squadron Without watching anyone around, it would be very easy to get carried away, especially if the battle would have been in favor of the Russians, and being too distant from the squadron - the result of which could be the death of a just victorious detachment.

We talk a lot about the fact that the death of the Izumi would have a huge moral impact on the squadron - and against this it is difficult to argue anything. But there was no chance of sinking it in view of the squadron, and sending the cruiser to chase was too great the risk that the chase would either end up retreating before the enemy’s superior forces, or else lead to damage and death of the Russian ships. And besides, we should not forget another important aspect.

The ships have come a long way, while the same Emerald and Pearl did not pass the full test cycle. A high, close to maximum stroke could easily break in the car. And let's imagine a picture - the two best squadron fast-pacers rush to intercept the Izumi, he runs ... and suddenly one of the Russian cruisers loses his turn and stays behind. We can safely say that the morale of the squadron would not have raised a similar episode for sure. And if such a breakdown happened during the pursuit, outside the visibility of the squadron?

Here, of course, it is worth noting that the ships, in fact. went into battle, but in it, as you know, anyway, if necessary, it was required to develop high speed. But recall that the tasks that set Z.P. Rozhdestvensky, to his cruisers, “as specially”, did not demand from them excellent driving characteristics. In order to protect the transports and serve as repetitive ships under the main forces, as well as to repel possible attacks by the destroyers, cover the wrecked ships, even the 20-nodal speed was not really required. Yes, orders Z.P. Rozhdestvensky cruisers 2 th Pacific squadron were completely non-heroic and not too typical of their classic role, but they took into account the actual technical condition of the Russian ships of this class. Well, if some cruiser in the heat of battle and “flew” the car - well, then there was nothing to be done, what to be, not to be avoided. But it would not have made any special impact on the rest of the squadron - the rest of the crews in battle would have no time for that.

Nevertheless, the author of this article considers the decision of Z.P. Rozhestvensky leave alone Izumi erroneous. Of course, he had many reasons not to send the cruiser in pursuit of the Izumi, but he could have ordered, for example, to drive away the Japanese cruiser, not moving away from the squadron beyond the line of sight. And who knows, what if a “golden hit” would have caused Izumi to lose its course? In the end, the same "Novik" managed with a single hit of an 120-mm projectile to disable the "Tsushima"! And this Japanese armored cruiser was both larger and more modern than the Izumi.

Of course, sending “Pearls” with “Emerald” into battle, the commander to some extent risked the fact that one of them could have been hit by a “golden hit”, but in order to only drive away “Izumi”, it would be possible to use not "second-class" cruisers, but "Oleg" and "Aurora". These ships were significantly larger, and the chances that an accidental hit from a Japanese ship could damage them severely were extremely low. In addition, as the artillery platforms large cruisers were more stable than the Emerald and Pearl, so they had more chances to hit the enemy. Of course, the chances of dealing with the Japanese intelligence officer were regrettably small, but the spectacle of how Izumi runs into all shoulder blades would have a very beneficial effect on the fighting spirit if not the officers, then the sailors of the 2 and 3 of the Pacific squadrons.

So, with the description of the episode with Izumi, we are finished, but why is Z.P. Rozhdestvensky not put forward, at least for a few miles, "Pearls" and "Emerald" for near intelligence? After all, the only way he could gain time is that, when an enemy was found, he had time to reorganize into battle order.

The answer to this question will sound paradoxical, but, apparently, the early detection of the Japanese main forces was not at all part of Zinovy ​​Petrovich’s plans, and moreover, it was in direct contradiction with them. How so? Alas, the volume of the article is limited, so we'll talk about it in the next article.

To be continued ...

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  1. +3
    16 May 2019 09: 00
    In general, Tsushima is a muddy topic.
    1. +8
      16 May 2019 10: 04
      No, why, quite clear to herself. The Japanese fleet defeated the Russian fleet, which means the Japanese fleet and its crews were better prepared for the war in general and for the battle in particular.
    2. +2
      16 May 2019 13: 07
      Quote: Valery Valery
      In general, Tsushima is a muddy topic.

      I think, on the contrary, it is quite natural)
      If you like: Tsushima is a litmus test of what was going on in the Navy before the war.
      Something like: questions of construction, supply, competence, are remarkably described by the Author, in series of articles
  2. -10
    16 May 2019 10: 09
    The main culprit of the defeat is Admiral Rozhdestvensky! It is he who is guilty of the fact that the Russian fleet used non-explosive shells. But even such shells were very effective when fighting at close range - as they would begin to pierce the armor of Japanese ships. And Japanese shells, in principle, did not penetrate Russian armor - even point blank. Therefore, the Japanese fleet was almost doomed. But Rozhdestvensky refused rapprochement and thereby doomed the Russian fleet to death.
    1. +5
      16 May 2019 11: 04
      The main culprit of the defeat is Admiral Rozhdestvensky!

      The main culprit is rotten royal power. Rozhdestvensky did what he could in those conditions.
    2. +2
      16 May 2019 11: 06
      Quote: geniy
      . And Japanese shells, in principle, did not penetrate Russian armor - even point blank.

      Well, yes .. and our armadillos went to the bottom with unbroken armor belts ... An interesting version. About the fact that the shells of our guns were not of the best quality + gave poorly visible haze when hit (which made it difficult to adjust) - a known and sad fact
      But Rozhdestvensky refused rapprochement and the Russian fleet doomed it
      Or maybe it was necessary to board at all? .. The battle was fought at generally accepted distances at that time. In general, a breakthrough to Vladivostok could be made only if Rozhestvensky had ships with relatively equal performance characteristics (according to the principle of the 1st armored detachment), vehicles that were not worn out by the transition, well-trained crews and high-quality shells. Those. the squadron was, in principle, doomed (besides, the Japanese fleet operated in an area saturated with its bases, observation points, radio stations and "peaceful non-combatants"). But at least some of the above conditions would turn the catastrophe into a worthy defeat with consequences that are sensitive for the Japanese. PS My purely personal opinion ..
      1. -1
        16 May 2019 12: 23
        Well, yes .. and our armadillos went to the bottom with unbroken armor belts ... An interesting version.

        Do you personally doubt this? In vain. Indeed, the paradox of the Tsushima battle consists in the fact that all the sunken Russian ships went to the bottom with an unbroken armored belt, which in principle should not be.
        Because the axiom for the admirals of that time was that if the armored belt was not broken, then the armadillo in principle cannot drown. But in reality, everything happened the other way around. You explain this why it happened?
        1. 0
          16 May 2019 12: 55
          Quote: geniy
          You explain this why it happened?

          Try
          1. -2
            16 May 2019 14: 00
            The bottom line is that the explosives of Japanese shells when they hit the armor of Russian ships experienced a gigantic overload and an instant self-detonation of each Japanese shell took place. But the laymen do not know that a high-explosive explosion is not capable of penetrating armor - and only armor-piercing shells can penetrate armor. Therefore, Russian ships with an unbroken armor belt, in principle, could not drown - because the Japanese did not have good armor-piercing shells at all like the Russians. And mainly Rozhdestvensky is guilty of the sinking of Russian ships. All armored ships were divided into two types - with a full armored belt from the stem to the stern and obsolete ships with an incomplete armored belt. but even some ancient Russian ships had a full armor belt, moreover, from bad armor - Harvey. It was an ancient and weak battleship Nikolai 1 and the cruisers Dmitry Donskoy and Vladimir Monomakh. "So, Nikolai 1 did not sink at all, and Dmitry Donskoy fought alone against 4-6 Japanese cruisers and was not sunk by them. He reached the island of Dazhelet and threw himself on the stones. From which he sank - but not from Japanese shells! And the cruiser "Vladimir Monomakh" sank from the explosion of a Japanese torpedo, but not from shells! Thus, even ancient ships with full armor but thin and the bad belt were not sunk by Japanese shells.
            1. +1
              16 May 2019 15: 03
              But the main Russian ships with a full armor belt are, of course, the 4 newest battleships of the Borodino type - that is, they were basically unsinkable by Japanese high-explosive shells, unable to penetrate the armor .. And the paradox is that none of them was sunk by the Japanese shells, although each was subjected to unusually brutal shelling, and each withstood as much as 5 hours of battle! And they were sunk mainly through the fault of Russian officers and in particular Rozhestvensky. The bottom line is that Rozhdestvensky refused to remove the boats, and moreover, they were not just standing on the deck of the quarter-deck, but were delivered already in 3 floorsAnd these boats began to burn under fire. And the hoses for extinguishing were all punctured and tons of water flowed down into the central casemate and from there did not flow anywhere through the fault of the officers. This gave rise to a slight negative stability - a negative metacentric height of about - 6 cm.And from this, each new battleship in battle went with a roll - not at all from the fact that it received underwater holes, which were not there, but because the water on the deck of the central casemate accumulated at one, then at the other side. And these ships staggered like drunks. Moreover, it is surprising that the battleship "Emperor Alexander the Third" received a double hit of twelve-inch shells in the bow and a surface hole (above the armor belt) - but not a drop of water in the underwater part! And he fought with this hole for 5 hours and was not going to drown! However, at the end of the battle - after 5 hours all the Russian sailors got used to the fact that they were unsinkable and on Alexandra they opened artillery ports with 75 mm guns of the opposite side, and at that moment the ship prowled and got a roll to the starboard side, And the water immediately poured thousands of tons into open ports and Alexander immediately capsized and drowned, not receiving a single hole in the armor belt. Likewise, the flagship battleship "Prince Suvorov" - although it sometimes approached the entire Japanese fleet at a pistol distance of 10 cab and all 12 Japanese armored ships shot at it! But he did not receive a single hole in the armor belt, and only the riding water in the casemate created negative stability for him and a slight roll to the port side. However, the gun ports of the 75 mm guns on the left side were close to the water and they were closed, having lost the protection of the left side from destroyers. But Kamchatka's transport protected him. And only when Kamchatka was drowned by Japanese armored cruisers, the Japanese destroyers came up from the left cake and fired 3 or 4 torpedoes at Suvorov. Thus, this battleship sank only from torpedoes, but without a single penetration of the armor belt by Japanese shells.
              The battleship Borodino in general almost the entire battle was a flagship and was not going to sink. the trouble came when he began to fight on the starboard side - and on the starboard side there was an admiral’s (Rozhdestvensky) spare cabin — stuffed with all kinds of combustible junk (unlike the exact same commander’s cabin on the port side — but completely naked) and the fire in this cabin became heat shells in the elevator of the jammed six-inch stern tower. And these charges ignited and exploded - transferring fire to the ammunition cellar, from which the battleship Borodino exploded. Thus, this ship did not die from the penetration of an armored belt. Well, the last ship from this series, the Eagle did not drown. Thus, not one of the Russian ships with a full armored belt drowned from breaking through the armor of the armored belt by Japanese shells.
              1. 0
                16 May 2019 15: 59
                Sit down, deuce.
                1. -1
                  18 May 2019 17: 10
                  The main culprit in the defeat of the Russian squadron is of course Admiral Rozhestvensky, although with it the entire rotten tsarist government. And this conclusion is unpleasant for Andrei from Ch. The bottom line is that for many years, Rozhestvensky did not bother to learn that the Russian shells did not explode! That is, they flew like ordinary steel bars and fell into the water without exploding - without any fragments, as was the case with Japanese shells. Therefore, the Russian squadron went into battle, as it were, with wooden sabers and with rifles and guns that were loaded with poop. Although I personally think that even with non-explosive shells-blanks it was possible to sink Japanese ships and defeat the Tsushima battle if the correct tactics were applied. But Rozhdestvensky is guilty of the fact that he did not provide either one or the other - neither good weapons, nor the right tactics.
                  Of course, all readers will not believe me that the Russian shells did not explode completely, but it is very easy to check, even without getting up from the couch. The bottom line is that even if one of a dozen shells exploded, it gives thousands of fragments and this provides an effect for all the other nine out of ten unexploded. That is, if at least 10% of the shells exploded in Tsushima, and 90% did not explode, then I’m wrong. Therefore, I affirm that 100% of Russian shells did not explode, although Russian sailors mistakenly claim that they saw explosions with their own eyes.
                  To begin with, you all need to remember that the percentage of Russian shells hit Tsushima was about 2% (if sclerosis doesn’t fail me, I’m just too lazy to check now). And this percentage means that 98 Russian shells just fell into the water not far from the Japanese ships. And all the experts pay attention only to the shells, and on those that fell into the water no one thinks what happened to them. And the alternative is very simple - either they all exploded, or all did not explode. The fact is that no matter how weakly the Russian shell explodes, but all the same, an explosion forms a flash and a little smoke. And this flash and smoke can be seen from afar (for example, the light of a lit match is visible for 10 km). And if Russian shells, when falling into the water (of which the vast majority) exploded, did not explode in turn, for example: one exploded, the other did not explode, then Russian gunners would immediately notice this strangeness in the Gull incident, when they shot at night and flashes from explosions would be clearly visible. But none of the Russian sailors saw a disagreement in the action of Russian shells: one exploded, the other did not explode. So all one hundred percent of Russian shells that fell into the water either did not explode or all exploded. But it is very easy to verify if readers had a mind!
                  1. 0
                    18 May 2019 17: 25
                    The fact is that, contrary to the opinion of profane people, the less explosives there are in a shell, the stronger its fragmentation effect. A large number of explosives provides only a high-explosive effect. A small amount of explosives still bursts the shell into a small amount but very heavy fragments. And I personally did the calculations - it turned out that heavy fragments weighing several tens of kilograms can fly off a kilometer from the place of the explosion. That is, a 12-inch Russian shell with the ability to cover a circle with a diameter of 2 kilometers. Of course, this is not at all a complete defeat - one or two pieces of steel at a distance of hundreds of meters from each other, although at the epicenter - a solid defeat of large objects. And the Germans conducted experiments concluded that the optimal weight of explosives in a ship’s armor-piercing projectile is 2-3%. In contrast, Japanese high-explosive shells 10% of explosives were bursting into a huge number of very small fragments, many of which were the size of a grain of sand and some Russian sailors were injured by 200 small fragments - but not killed. And large Russian fragments would riddled all Japanese ships. And Japanese ships would turn into a sieve. But after the battle, the captured Russian sailors did not see any fragmentation damage on Japanese ships at all. It means that all Russian shells that fell into the water 100% did not explode!!!
                    You think I'm fantasizing - it's easy to check. In the battle of Tsushima, Russian ships fired about 10 thousand shells of all calibres against the Japanese. And the vast majority of them fell into the water. This means that if I am right, then there are still tens of thousands of Russian shells at the bottom along the curved line of the Japanese ships. Of course they all rusted, but all the same whole. And therefore, it is very easy to verify that if the Russian shells did not explode a hundred percent, then they still lie at the bottom, and if they exploded, then they are not there - only fragments. Here, the Japanese shells all exploded - therefore, only fragments of Japanese shells are at the bottom of the Korean Strait.
                  2. 0
                    18 May 2019 18: 09
                    So: of 98% of Russian shells that fell into the water, all did not explode. But what happened to the remaining 2%, which definitely hit the Japanese ships - maybe they all exploded to one? But if readers had a memory, then you should remember the phrase from Andrey from Chelyabinsk:
                    And secondly, they were not "all did not explode" at all. Many shells exploded well for themselves, if pierced
                    armor

                    Of the majority of readers, almost all are inattentive and no one can understand the meaning of what is written. So - Entot Andrei immediately separated the shells that fell in Japanese armor from all the others - which fell into thin metal. Saying he guarantees only the explosion of shells that hit the armor, while others falling into thin places does not come out exploded.
                    So I inform you that the percentage of armor on the ships of that time was not at all great - about 50% of the surface area of ​​the freeboard. And if we take into account that in total the entire ship is also a goal - all boats, thin-walled superstructures, pipes, masts, bells of air intakes - it turns out that the reservation area is small - about a quarter (about 25%) of the total side area of ​​the target ship. This means that approximately 75% of Russian shells, even those falling into Japanese ships, pierced very thin metal - at best 6 mm, and often only 1 mm - and did not explode !.

                    That is, according to Andrey from Ch, out of those 2% of Russian shells that hit the Japanese ships, 75% fell into very thin metal and did not have to explode at all! And it turns out that out of 2% - three quarters - about 1,5% of Russian shells should not have exploded! And only some unfortunate 0,5% of Russian shells, in principle, could explode! Do not you think readers and history buffs that only 0,5% of Russian shells exploded is too little to win a naval battle? But that is not all!
              2. +1
                17 May 2019 18: 09
                Thank you, very interestingly stated.

                The commander’s cabin, as if not under 6 dm towers, but at the stern, by the balcony.
                1. +1
                  17 May 2019 20: 00
                  The commander’s cabin, as if not under 6 dm towers, but at the stern, by the balcony.

                  You're wrong. On armadillos of the Borodino type, two cabins are absolutely identical in layout and are located symmetrically - the commander’s cabin on the port side, and the spare cabin for the admiral on the port side. both cabins are located under two stern 6 inch towers. But the difference is that the commander’s cabin on Orel and Borodino was furnished very modestly - without fire hazardous materials and unnecessary luxury. In contrast, both Borodino and Orel were afraid to remove luxury (piano and wooden furniture from the admiral's cabin). A German adviser visiting Russian ships in Libau said that any German commander would be immediately brought to trial for such a quantity of combustible materials on the ship. And here's what is interesting - the Russian battleships spent most of the Tsushima battle on the left side - but the commander’s cabins did not burn. And as soon as at the end of the battle the Japanese fired on their starboard side for a long time, the admiral's cabins on Borodino and Orel immediately caught fire. And above them were towers of 6 inch guns. The servants left them because of the fire and smoke. but in the elevations of these towers there were shells and shells with gunpowder. The armor of the supply pipes of these towers became red-hot and a little more and the armadillo Eagle would explode. But night fell and the battle stopped. The sailors were immediately able to put out the fire in the admiral's cabin. But they didn’t have time on Borodino - and the shells and charges in his elevator exploded and sent the explosion down - to the ammunition cellar, which caused Borodino to die. I quote
                  "The last hits to the" Eagle "volleys of 12-inch guns occurred after the death of" Borodino "apparently the sight was taken by the fire in the area of ​​the mainmast (where the admiral's cabin and the 6-inch tower were located) ...
                  The right aft 6-inch tower was surrounded by a fire on all sides. Her feed tube armor was red-hot. The revolving tower itself was wedged in a traverse position. "It was the same at Borodino. Thus, although Rozhdestvensky was not on the battleship Borodino during the battle, he was the one to blame for the explosion of this battleship.
        2. -1
          16 May 2019 13: 23
          Quote: geniy
          Well, yes .. and our armadillos went to the bottom with unbroken armor belts ... An interesting version.

          Do you personally doubt this? In vain. Indeed, the paradox of the Tsushima battle consists in the fact that all the sunken Russian ships went to the bottom with an unbroken armored belt, which in principle should not be.
          Because the axiom for the admirals of that time was that if the armored belt was not broken, then the armadillo in principle cannot drown. But in reality, everything happened the other way around. You explain this why it happened?


          Explain why the ships drowned if the armor belt was not broken?
          1. +1
            16 May 2019 14: 49
            The Navarin was blown up by mine bundles.
            "Emperor Alexander III," most likely, too. There is a multi-page Japanese document with schemes of spreading mine ligaments on the path of the Russian squadron, schemes of mines and actually mine ligaments. At Borodino, open ports of anti-mine artillery entered the water.
            "Prince Suvorov" died as a result of torpedo hits. "Sisoy the Great" and • Oslyabya, which received shells in the unarmored parts of the hull, went to the bottom due to the ingress of sea water into the ship.
            1. +3
              16 May 2019 23: 17
              Quote: Comrade
              "Sisoy the Great" and • Oslyabya, which received shells in the unarmored parts of the hull, went to the bottom due to the ingress of sea water into the ship.

              You said that very well :) I dare say that absolutely all the ships in the history of mankind have sunk due to the inflow of sea water into the ship. :)
          2. +4
            16 May 2019 15: 15
            Andrew, the Japanese did not really pierce the armored belt of our ships. Throughout the war, there is one evidence of the 229 mm belt breakdown (the Japanese projectile did not pass inside, it just knocked the cork out of the armor) and there is another case of the 102 mm armor breakdown - in other cases, armor thicker than 75 mm did not penetrate. Our shells pierced to 178 mm armor (no longer fixed like, but this is not accurate)
            And why drowned ... Let's watch.
            "Suvorov" - disabled by artillery fire, sunk by torpedoes
            "Borodino" - it is not known exactly, but, judging by the descriptions of eyewitnesses, the cellar of 152-mm shells exploded, which led to the formation of a large hole below the armor belt, flooding and overturning the ship. Most likely, the fire passed into the cellars after being hit by a heavy "Fuji" projectile, that is, it is possible that it nevertheless penetrated 152 mm of the turret armor. But it is possible in another way, including to the extent that the fire of the fires reached the artillery cellar.
            Alexander III - after being bombarded by Japanese battleships, he got a list, from which the open ports of 75-mm guns entered the water, the flooding became uncontrollable, the ship turned over. Reasons for obtaining a roll - are unknown.
            "Oslyabya" - the destruction of an unarmored bow end by artillery fire. The ship capsized.
            The remaining battleships are victims of torpedoes and, possibly, mines.
            1. IBP
              +1
              16 May 2019 19: 04
              "Oslyabya" sank not "from the destruction of the non-armored bow end by artillery fire" although at the beginning of the battle it received serious hits at the very waterline in the left side of the hole was semi underwater and could not be repaired due to the course and strong swell, but the second bulkhead of the bow the traverse withstood. Having flooded the cellars of the starboard side, it was possible to stop the roll to the left side, but the sediment trim remained. One ship continued to fight, although it lost almost all 10 and 6 inch guns. All the upper superstructures of the ship were engulfed in one big fire. But the death of the ship came after two hits in the middle of the ship between the left mine vehicle and the bathhouse. The first hit blew the armor plate off the bolts, and the second hit left a hole in this place about 4-6 microns in size. Immediately flooded a spare coal pit, increasing the roll. After that "Oslyabya" went out of order, turned over and sank the top with a keel, burying 900 sailors inside.
      2. 0
        17 May 2019 00: 31
        Quote: KVU-NSVD
        . PS My purely personal opinion ..

        Plus from me for that!
    3. 0
      16 May 2019 11: 26
      Quote: geniy
      The main culprit of the defeat is Admiral Rozhdestvensky! It is he who is guilty of the fact that the Russian fleet used non-explosive shells. But even such shells were very effective when fighting at close range - as they would begin to pierce the armor of Japanese ships. And Japanese shells, in principle, did not penetrate Russian armor - even point blank. Therefore, the Japanese fleet was almost doomed. But Rozhdestvensky refused rapprochement and thereby doomed the Russian fleet to death.

      The issue of close range combat was already discussed on this site. In principle, I agree with the general conclusion that rapprochement was more likely to be beneficial to the Japanese than to us. The battle in the Yellow Sea of ​​28.07.1904 of the year showed that at a relatively large distance, Russian ships are little affected by Japanese shells. In that battle, it was possible to succeed precisely in rapprochement with the Russian fleet.
      1. -4
        16 May 2019 13: 01
        The issue of close range combat was already discussed on this site. In principle, I agree with the general conclusion that rapprochement was more likely to be beneficial to the Japanese than to us.

        Unfortunately, I did not read this discussion, but I already know how great the number of profane people is not a bit versed in military affairs. Therefore, I will explain to everyone.
        It should be clear to everyone that the greater the distance, the less chance of hitting, and vice versa. That is, when firing at close range - closer than 10 cables, the accuracy of artillery fire is so great that you can hit pre-selected objects on an enemy ship - for example, shoot at the waterline, conning tower or a specific weapon. And when shooting for example at 60 cabs, it is hardly possible to hit the enemy ship. That is, shooting at close range would threaten both opponents with terrible losses, and in the days of sailing ships there was the concept of "carronade battle" - that is, artillery combat at pistol range. So - the Japanese shells predominantly had a high-explosive explosion effect, and the Russian - armor-piercing. But the power of a high-explosive explosion does not decrease in any way from the distance, but the armor-piercing decreases very much - because the speed of the projectile decreases and I will not bother explaining other factors due to which the armor-piercing effect of the projectile decreases with increasing distance. Therefore, the Japanese did not make much difference from what distance to shoot - the impact force of their shells did not decrease. But Russian shells at a long distance did not penetrate Japanese armor - the fact is that most of them fell short-lived and after walking several meters in the water lost their kinetic energy. But when fighting at short distances, the Russians could shoot at point-blank range and probably pierced the Japanese armor, starting to sink the Japanese ships. All "experts" who do not understand this are complete laymen. The Russian fleet, when firing at close range, would easily have drowned the Japanese fleet.
        1. +4
          16 May 2019 15: 20
          Quote: geniy
          That is, when shooting from close range - closer than 10 cable, the accuracy of artillery shooting is so great that you can get into pre-selected items on an enemy ship - for example, shoot at the waterline, conning tower or a specific weapon.

          If by "closer" we mean a distance of 2-3 cables, then it is possible, but if 7-10, then, of course, it is impossible.
          Quote: geniy
          But when fighting at short distances, the Russians could shoot at point-blank range and probably pierced through the Japanese armor, starting to sink the Japanese ships. All "experts" who do not understand this are complete laymen.

          I love these people - they know nothing about the striking effect of Russian shells behind armor, about booking Japanese battleships, or about the construction of warships in general (they had to pierce armor = drown the ship) or about the fact that the Russians in general were much slower and in no way could they impose the distance of the battle on the enemy, nor on the action of the high-explosive shells (which would have wrecked the Russian ships perfectly without breaking through the armor) - nothing.
          But sincerely considering everyone around him to be profane
          Spring, however
          1. 0
            16 May 2019 16: 56
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            they have to break through the armor = drown the ship

            This, and what is it here, in nature, is not it?
            The ship - this one is like the same tank, the current is large and floats laughing laughing laughing
          2. -1
            16 May 2019 18: 02
            That is, when shooting from close range - closer than 10 cable, the accuracy of artillery shooting is so great that you can get into pre-selected items on an enemy ship - for example, shoot at the waterline, conning tower or a specific weapon.

            Andrey from Chelyabinsk: If by "closer" we mean a distance of 2-3 cables, then it is possible, but if 7-10, then, of course, it is impossible.

            Well, if you do not know Andrew the simplest things, then I will inform you that a very good gunner from the distance of 2 km (this is approximately 10 cab) to get into the flag pole with a thickness of 5 cm.
            And during the Great Patriotic War, a good tanker from a distance of 1 km (about 5 cabs) fell into a birch 30 cm thick, and I read the case when an angry tanker got into one German with an armor-piercing blank with 900 m. So in a ship from a distance of 10 cable there will be almost 100% of hits and can even aim at individual objects. I can refer to Admiral Makarov ..
            1. +1
              16 May 2019 18: 56
              Quote: geniy
              Well, if you do not know Andrew the simplest things, then I will inform you that a very good gunner from the distance of 2 km (this is approximately 10 cab) to get into the flag pole with a thickness of 5 cm.

              Well, if you, the genius, do not know the simplest things, then I refer you to textbooks on the artillery case, from which you may find out that the field gun never possessed such accuracy. Just because of the values ​​of the vertical and horizontal spread of shells (ellipse of dispersion), which in principle cannot provide direct hit on the target with a thickness of 5 cm from almost 2 km.
              Quote: geniy
              And I read the case when an angry tanker hit a German with an armor-piercing disc with 900 m.

              Miracles happen sometimes. According to the statistics.
              Quote: geniy
              To that, in the ship from the 10 cable distance there will be almost 100% hits and you can even aim at individual items. I can refer to Admiral Makarov ..

              Take a chance, laugh
              1. 0
                17 May 2019 20: 12
                Just because of the values ​​of the vertical and horizontal scatter of shells (scattering ellipse) which, in principle, cannot provide a direct hit on a target 5 cm thick with almost 2 km.

                You just do not know the principles of field guidance.
                The essence of the aiming principle is that first the panorama is directed at some object visible from afar and the first sighting shot is fired, and the first sighting round certainly flies by. In this case, the tool moves on soft ground. But a good smart gunner immediately corrects the aiming - he turns the gun barrel a little so that the panorama axis would again look at the previous object. And after that, it calculates in the most accurate way the necessary adjustment of the aiming for the second shot. Therefore, a good gunner fires with amazing accuracy. There was one artilleryman near Novorossiysk, who was nicknamed "traffic controller". That is, he shot all objects in advance, and as soon as a German car was driving along the roads of Novorossiysk, he calculated the lead with amazing accuracy and smashed every German car with a single shell. Therefore, the command gave this artilleryman shells without restriction, while other guns lacked shells.
                I know of another gunner - a young lieutenant who killed a German cyclist a few kilometers behind the front line on the targeted area with the first shot of his gun.
                You Andrew just do not worry - like most experts you do not understand anything about the principles of guidance tools. And if you think that I have described everything to you, then you are very mistaken, because the principle of guiding naval guns is much more complicated. And none of you know anything about it.
                1. -1
                  17 May 2019 21: 41
                  Quote: geniy
                  You just do not know the principles of field guidance.

                  Genius, do not make people laugh with your "revelations" at the level of the 5th grade of high school, but finally read at least some UCHEBNIK ON ARTILLERY. Specifically - about the ellipse of dispersion and mean (mean square) deviations. Vertically and horizontally.
                  Your knowledge is frankly below the plinth, you build your "theories" on the basis of an understanding of artillery shooting at the level of a student who is a little interested in history. artillery textbookslearn how actually firing artorudiya. Assimilate for the beginning the theory of artillery firing. Just do not touch sea arta, start with a simpler one, with field artillery.
                  Then, when you master the theory, take in hand documents which are guided by gunners for firing - the so-called. shooting tables and look at them for deviations for certain distances. After that, when you finally figure out what wild nonsense you are now carrying, and you yourself throw away your "murzilki" about hitting a target 5 cm thick at a distance of 2 km - after all this it will make sense to talk to you about something.
                2. 0
                  18 May 2019 00: 00
                  My friend, did he ever shoot a gun himself? Did he hold the shooting tables in his hands?
            2. 0
              21 May 2019 22: 27
              before telling tales --- read the table values ​​for dispersion.
              Learn a lot
    4. +6
      16 May 2019 11: 31
      Quote: geniy
      It is he who is guilty of the fact that the Russian fleet used non-explosive shells.

      laughing fool
      No comments. Taking into account the fact that at the time of taking light projectiles into the treasury Rozhestvensky was the cruiser commander - well, who else could be guilty if not him? :)))
      Quote: geniy
      But even such shells were very effective in close range combat.

      Were neither far nor close
      Quote: geniy
      Therefore, the Japanese fleet was almost doomed. But Rozhestvensky refused to draw closer, and by this the Russian fleet doomed to death.

      Nothing that the main forces in Tsushima sometimes converged on 10 cables?
      1. +1
        16 May 2019 11: 50
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

        No comment.

        Andrei Nikolaevich, do not be so harsh and categorical. Of course Tsushima is your hobby, but not all of them possess such a wealth of knowledge.
        Sincerely.
        1. +7
          16 May 2019 12: 05
          Quote: Trapper7
          but not all possess such a baggage of knowledge.

          I would, without any doubt, treat an ordinary person with understanding and without sharpness, but this is a genius :)))) I’m not meeting with him for the first time, he categorically cuts the truth-womb, usually without knowing the subject, which is taken to speak, and this is somewhat ... tiring :))))
          Last time he declared the de Marr's formula (armor penetration) because it lacks corrections for the precession and nutation of the projectile (there are such characteristics in flight) and on this basis revealed a whole worldwide conspiracy of gunsmiths aimed at misinforming other people in terms of armor penetration.
          Everything would be fine, but the de Marr formula is derived from actual shelling of armor, that is, both precession and nutation are taken into account a priori :) It's just not a physical formula, but a mathematical one — it describes not the physics, but actually the mass-acquired penetration rate, caliber and projectile strength.
          1. +1
            16 May 2019 12: 54
            [quote = Andrey from Chelyabinsk] I would, no doubt, treat an ordinary person with understanding and without harshness, but this is a genius :)))) [/ quote /]
            Now I understand)
          2. 0
            21 May 2019 22: 32
            It’s just not a physical formula, but a mathematical one

            It is neither physical nor mathematical --- it is empirical. That is, approximation by the formula of experimental data. (But nutation really has nothing to do with it. And the precession even more so)
      2. -5
        16 May 2019 13: 07
        Nothing that the main forces in Tsushima sometimes converged on 10 cables?

        This is a blatant profanity!
        Yes, there were such moments when the shot battleship "Prince Suvorov" lost control and was driven like a deck by machines sometimes approached the formation of a Japanese squadron of 10 cables and at the same time he actually "fought" alone against the entire Japanese squadron of 12 armored ships, but pay attention that the word "fought" is in quotation marks, because almost all of his artillery was silent. And this beating of the heroic ship, you dare call the battle of the Russian and Japanese squadrons at a distance of 10 cables?
      3. -6
        16 May 2019 13: 37
        Given the fact that at the time of acceptance of lightweight shells into the treasury, Rozhestvensky was the commander of the cruiser - well, who else should be guilty, if not him? :)))
        Besides the fact that he was the commander of the cruiser - in the following times, Rozhestvensky was the commander of the training artillery detachment and the ships entrusted to him fired, sometimes not only with training but also with warheads. And he might know that all Russian shells do not explode at all! As it was subsequently shown by the shelling of Sveaborg. The fact is that fuses of Russian shells were initially set to explode only after breaking through rather thick steel. but in reality, precession and nutation act on the projectile, as well as a decrease in speed from resistance in air and in water from ricocheting - you know nothing about that. And as a result, having received a decrease in speed, the Russian shells did not explode at all. And it was Rozhdestvensky who could command the artillery detachment to be the first to know this. But either he hid all the information about the bombings, or wanted to trick the whole of Russian society (as well as Andrei from Chelyabinsk, tricks all the readers) and as a result the whole Russian squadron went to Tsushima with unexploded shells.
      4. -6
        16 May 2019 14: 11
        But even such shells were very effective in close range combat. They were neither at long range nor at close range.

        Well, if you don’t understand the peculiarities of projectile flight, I’ll say that the whole battle at Tsushima took place on ricochets. That is, at small angles of incidence of the shells, when the shells broke through a thin layer of water, they immediately jumped back and the Russian shells didn’t fall into the water for the second time exploding. At the same time, they completely lost their kinetic energy and in most cases could not penetrate the Japanese armor.
        But when fighting at close - almost "pistol" distances, when Russian guns do not shoot at undershoots and flights, but aim directly at a specific gun or a place on a Japanese ship - that is, direct hits without any ricochets, then Russian shells would begin to penetrate the Japanese armor through and through, and at the same time pulling out a mass of red-hot fragments from the Japanese armor, from which all Japanese guns would explode Japanese shells prepared for firing, and hundreds of tons of ocean water would burst into the pierced armor belt of Japanese ships. But most of the laymen do not know this.
        1. +4
          16 May 2019 15: 05
          M-dya :))))
          Quote: geniy
          And is this the beating of the heroic ship? Do you dare to call the battle of the Russian and Japanese squadrons on the 10 cable course?

          No, not that :))) In some periods of the battle, Russian and Japanese columns converged to the 10 cable length, which is fixed by both Russian and Japanese sources. Alas, your theory ordered to live long :)))
          Quote: geniy
          In addition, he was the commander of the cruiser - in subsequent times Rozhestvensky was the commander of the training artillery detachment and the ships entrusted to him fired, sometimes not only training but also fighting projectiles.

          Yep Only, firstly, it had nothing to do with the acceptance of lightweight shells, secondly, the ships that were part of the training squad fired either old 305-mm or new 254-mm projectiles, and the latter were the ONLY large-caliber ammunition that had an adequate stock explosives, thirdly, I would ask for a reference on the firing of ammunition.
          Who allowed Rozhestvensky when he was in the beginning of an art detachment to shoot with fighters?
          Quote: geniy
          And he might know that all Russian shells do not explode at all!

          He could not, because, generally speaking, shooting by combatants in peaceful conditions is nonsense.
          And secondly, they were not "all did not explode" at all. Many shells exploded well for themselves if they pierced the armor, as Tsushima showed. So, for example, out of 4 shells that hit Mikasa's casemates, two exploded, and two more - most likely exploded, judging by the descriptions of the consequences of their hits, the Japanese simply do not directly say "exploded".
          The problem was not that the shells did not explode, but in an extremely small amount of explosives. That is, when they exploded - there was almost no sense in this, they practically did not cause damage to the space.
          An excellent example of what happened was 4 falling into Mikasy's casemates. They knocked out all ONE gun - a direct projectile hit in it.
          Quote: geniy
          but in reality precession and nutation act on the shell

          (grimacing) do not argue about what you do not understand
          Quote: geniy
          And as a result, having received a decrease in speed, the Russian shells did not explode at all.

          cheeky lie refuted by Japanese sources
          Quote: geniy
          But either he hid all the information about non-explosions, or wanted to deceive the whole of Russian society.

          Pure conspiracy
          Quote: geniy
          Well, if you do not understand belmes in the features of the flight of projectiles, then I would say that the entire battle at Tsushima took place on the rebound

          Enchanting nonsense. At those distances that were in Tsushima, there could not be any ricochets from the water with the rarest exception - anyone who knows how to compare the angles of falling of the shells and the firing range in Tsushima knows this.
          Quote: geniy
          That is, at small angles of falling shells, when shells pierced a thin layer of water, the Tutt jumped back

          I will reveal a military secret - in this case, the Japanese shells would not have "jumped out" at all, since they exploded when they hit the water :))))
          Quote: geniy
          But when fighting at close - almost "pistol" distances, when Russian guns do not shoot at undershoots and flights, but aim directly at a specific gun or a place on a Japanese ship

          The man finally confused the battle of the steam fleet and sailing :)))))
          1. -4
            16 May 2019 16: 19
            Andrey from Chelyabinsk (Andrey) Russian and Japanese columns in separate periods of the battle converged to a distance of 10 cables, which are recorded by both Russian and Japanese sources.

            You brazenly lying. In the Tsushima battle there was not one such moment that the Russian squadron would move closer to the Japanese at a distance of 10 cable.
            1. +2
              16 May 2019 16: 50
              Quote: geniy
              You brazenly lying. In the Tsushima battle there was not one such moment that the Russian squadron would move closer to the Japanese at a distance of 10 cable.

              What are you saying? Did you try to read the official Russian historiography?
              1. +2
                16 May 2019 16: 51
                Here is how the Japanese describe this moment (official Meiji)
                1. +2
                  16 May 2019 16: 52
                  But the description of the 2-th combat detachment - however, here about 3 thousand m
                  1. +5
                    16 May 2019 16: 53
                    And I’m not even talking about the fact that the distances were usually measured by the head distance, while evaluating the maneuvering, you can see that other ships converged on 10 KBT., Even if it wasn’t explicitly said.
                    So who of us is a liar? laughing
                    Marsh learn materiel!
                    ZY - not to mention the fact that the 178 mm armor of the Japanese BRKR was vulnerable to our shells and on 30-40 cables
                  2. -2
                    16 May 2019 18: 29
                    But the description of the 2-th combat detachment - however, here about 3 thousand m

                    That's exactly what 3000 meters. And if you Andrey managed to divide this distance into one cable 185 m, then it turns out 16 cable - and this is much more than 10 cables.
                2. -2
                  16 May 2019 18: 26
                  If you don’t understand Andrey, I’ll explain for others: at that moment, 3 hours Japanese time, the Japanese squadron strongly overtook the Russian and Alexander's commander tried to break through under the stern of the Japanese fleet to the north. But the Japanese noticed this attempt and turned "all of a sudden" as a result, there was a quick but short-term rapprochement of the two squadrons, and it looked as if the Japanese had put the famous stick over the "T", that is, the Russian squadron was in the wake formation and the Japanese fired mostly only one lead "Alexander" - with all its fleet, and the Russian ships stretched into the distance fired at that moment from afar and almost did not hit. So this period was also very short-lived.
                  1. +1
                    16 May 2019 19: 11
                    Quote: geniy
                    If you don’t understand Andrew, I’ll explain to others: at that moment, the Japanese squadron overtook the Russian squadron 3 during the Japanese time, and the commander Alexander tried to break through to the north of the Japanese fleet.

                    For those who cannot read "geniuses".
                    Alexander tried to break under the stern of the Japanese ADB in 14.40, Russian time. And Russian historiography speaks about the convergence of cable on 11

                    Japanese historiography does not say that the convergence occurred in 15.00 in Japanese time, she says that in 15.07 the Japanese approached our squadron on 5 000 m, and then fought for some time - and only THEN went closer to 2-3 thousand m
              2. -2
                16 May 2019 18: 21
                EB Borodino captain 1st rank Serebryannikov decided not to lead a squadron between the two fires, or simply tried again to break through to the north. In addition, he was still waiting for the flagship signals and was going to cover him from another enemy attack. At this time, the distance to Togo's squad was reduced to 11-16 cable ones, so the Japanese ships even fired several torpedoes (without success). Around 15:15 p.m. the first “southward run” that continued not for long, was stopped, and the Russian ships again lay on the north-northeast

                The fact of the matter is that rapprochement was very short-lived. and moreover, both warring squadrons on parallel courses didn’t come together completely, but only separate ships - Borodino and Mikasa! And the distance was not 10 cable - but from 11 to 16 cabs.
          2. 0
            16 May 2019 18: 45
            Yep Only, firstly, it had nothing to do with the acceptance of lightweight shells, secondly, the ships that were part of the training squad fired either old 305-mm or new 254-mm projectiles, and the latter were the ONLY large-caliber ammunition that had an adequate stock explosives, thirdly, I would ask for a reference on the firing of ammunition.
            Who allowed Rozhestvensky when he was in the beginning of an art detachment to shoot with fighters?

            But I'm not talking about new lightweight shells. The fact is that Russian shells had tight fuses that were tested for operation only on relatively thick steel sheets. And in fact, fuses did not work in Tsushima.
            Moreover, the Japanese in the battle in the Yellow Sea also often did not fire fuses. And they began to modify them - they simply turned them out of the shells and inserted fuses with a softer spring. so in Tsushima the Japanese really had "different" shells - that is, essentially the same, but with different fuses.
            And Rozhestvensky is guilty of not checking the fuses for action. And although in peacetime they often shoot with projectiles with blanks, but still they sometimes shoot with combat ones. And this was during a demonstrative shooting in front of two emperors Wilhelm and Nikolai - with what shells they fired at the shields on the island: whether they were military blanks - what do you think? Why did wooden shields fall?
            But the bottom line is that even non-explosive blanks when shooting at close range are easily capable of penetrating armor and exploding turrets of Japanese guns. If Rozhdestvensky ordered to approach, the armor-piercing Russian shells would riddled the Japanese.
            1. +2
              16 May 2019 19: 24
              Quote: geniy
              The fact is that the Russian projectiles had tight fuses that were tested to fire only on relatively thick steel sheets.

              Illiterate lie. Russian lightweight shells did not pass tests at all.
              Quote: geniy
              Moreover, the Japanese in the battle in the Yellow Sea, too, often did not work fuses. And they began to refine them - they simply twisted out of the shells and inserted fuses with a softer spring.

              Brad, since the Japanese in ZhM just the shells exploded regularly, which follows from the description of the damage of the Russian ships, compiled by officers
              Quote: geniy
              And although in peacetime, shells are often fired with blanks, but sometimes they also fire

              Examples of such shooting is? Then lie
              Quote: geniy
              And this was during a demonstration shooting in front of two emperors
              Wilhelm and Nikolai - what shells shot at the shields on the island: do they think with pigs?

              Old :)))) The composition of the detachment for 1902 - "Minin" and "Alexander II" "Admiral Ushakov", "General-Admiral Apraksin, Admiral Greig", "Admiral Lazarev", "Pervenets", "Kremlin", cruiser 1 rank "Memory of Azov", gunboat "Groza", mine cruiser "Voyevoda".
              That is, the vast majority of ships - with old guns and fired old shells
              1. -3
                16 May 2019 22: 42
                Illiterate lie. Russian lightweight shells did not pass tests at all.

                Are you absolutely stupid or something?
                Do not you know that each batch of newly manufactured shells passes the acceptance tests? That is, several pieces are taken from hundreds or thousands of shells and they are fired by checking both the initial speed and armor penetration and explosiveness. And this last parameter was checked by firing on a steel sheet of a certain thickness. Which turned out to be too large, because after the Russo-Japanese War, the thickness of the test sheet was reduced to half an inch - that is, to 12,7 mm. This means that during the war the shells at the end of the trajectory had a much lower final velocity than the muzzle, the kinetic energy of the impact was less, and because of the tight fuse, not all of them exploded in a real war, whereas when taken at the firing range everything was perfect - all 100% of the test shells worked as they should.
                1. +2
                  17 May 2019 15: 53
                  Quote: geniy
                  Are you absolutely stupid or something?

                  No, I know the story. You - her fantasize.
                  By the way, I wonder where the data on the test shells? especially this nonsense
                  Quote: geniy
                  the thickness of the checklist was reduced to half an inch — that is, to 12,7 mm.

                  I do not Pikul?
                  1. 0
                    17 May 2019 22: 03
                    No, I know the story.

                    I agree that the volume of your knowledge is very large - I am not joking and not ironic. And I agree that you know from military history - even more than me.
                    However, I have a special technical education, and deeply UNDERSTAND the technical side. And knowledge of trends exempts from knowledge of trifles. And all my life I studied technical features. Therefore, I see perfectly what you are mistaken. Moreover, you personally often follow the track that has been rolled up by others - that is, in accordance with the versions widely circulated in society, which are often completely erroneous.
                    And it’s quite characteristic that you don’t even know how thick the steel sheet was to be tested for explosive Russian shells. This was described in his book not at all by Pikul, but by academician Alexey Nikolaevich Krylov.
                    And before the Russo-Japanese War, the thickness of the check sheet was 1,5 inches - that is, 37 mm, and after the Russo-Japanese War, when the sailors were convinced that Russian shells explode very poorly - they took a much smaller thickness - 0,5 inches = 12,7 mm And moreover, it was very difficult to calibrate the fuses of large-caliber shells so that they fire at such a thickness. And Krylov was very proud of this achievement - and they were not able to switch to a smaller thickness. And ignorance of this circumstance betrays you with a head - that you do not understand many very important technical features of military equipment.
                    1. +1
                      18 May 2019 09: 42
                      Quote: geniy
                      And it’s quite characteristic that you don’t even know how thick the steel sheet was to be tested for explosive Russian shells. This was described in his book not at all by Pikul, but by academician Alexey Nikolaevich Krylov.

                      Ah, Kryloooooov :))))))) What a beauty :)))) Apparently, this is meant
                      Another drawback - the insecurity of the action of the bursting tube - occurred due to the lack of production of the tube itself ... At present, the tube has been developed, which cost many hundreds of shots, and its sensitivity has been brought to a secured 12-inch projectile explosion upon striking a ½-inch steel shield. .

                      So, "genius" .... No, I can't. And this man writes about
                      Quote: geniy
                      However, I have a special technical education, and I deeply UNDERSTAND the technical side.

                      You don't understand ANYTHING. Because:
                      1) Krylov was not talking about armor-piercing, but about high-explosive shells.. I quote
                      The above data is more than enough to have a full judgment about our high-explosive shells, which are the result of both the experience of the war and the three-year reinforced works that constitute the true, not imaginary, secret of state importance.

                      2) What pre-war tests from each party Krylov does not write about. He writes that the high-explosive shells succeeded in increasing the sensitivity of the fuse compared to what it was before - it does NOT follow from what Krylov said that the dotsusimsky shells regularly went through similar tests, these are your fantasies.
        2. +1
          16 May 2019 17: 05
          Quote: geniy
          At the same time, they completely lost their kinetic energy and in most cases could not penetrate the Japanese armor.



          This fragment is taken from the manual on the organization of artillery service on the ships of the 2nd squadron, whether this paragraph was respected or not, and it is difficult to answer with which shells exactly each individual ship shot. Although it can be assumed, based on this instruction, that at the beginning of the battle part of the shots was fired by armor-piercing shells, since it (instruction) was supposed to have 50/50 armor-piercing and segmented shells directly near the guns. In turret compartments have, in proportion, high explosive 2/3 and 1/3 armor-piercing shells.
          1. 0
            16 May 2019 23: 29
            Quote: 27091965i
            This fragment is taken from the manual on the organization of artillery service on the ships of the 2nd squadron, whether this paragraph was respected or not, and it is difficult to answer with which shells exactly each individual ship shot.

            By the way, what kind of instruction is this? What year and who is the author?
            1. +3
              17 May 2019 09: 43
              Quote: Saxahorse
              By the way, what kind of instruction is this? What year and who is the author?


              The first edition was in 1904, it was printed by order of the State Music School, it was developed by Colonel V. Alekspev (the end of the name on the scan is poorly read, so I can be wrong).
              The second edition was in 1905 for the Training Artillery Detachment of the Baltic Fleet. The full name of this manual is "Organization of artillery service on ships of the 2nd squadron of the Pacific Fleet."
              Not a big scan from this edition.
              1. 0
                17 May 2019 23: 03
                Quote: 27091965i
                The first edition was in 1904, it was printed by order of the State Music School, developed by Colonel V. Alekspev

                Thank! Very interesting, although not everything is clear. Published in the year 1904, and in which month are there directions? I’m trying to understand whether this was published before the departure of the 2nd squadron, and it’s very interesting on whose initiative.

                I ask again because well-known information about the level of training:
                In the first decade of the XX century. formed at the end of the XIX century. Forms of combat training of fleet personnel have not changed much. They were guided by the naval charter of 1853, revised and supplemented in 1870.


                Besides:
                The instructions were “Rules of Shipping Tactics” by Admiral G. I. Butakov and “Reasoning on the Issues of Naval Tactics” by Admiral S. O. Makarov.


                We see a very old charter and two optional additions. Judging by your scans, there were some other documents on the topic of combat training. Therefore, the interest in which documents was guided by the 2nd Squadron during combat training.
                1. +1
                  18 May 2019 17: 31
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Published in the year 1904, and in which month are there directions? I’m trying to understand if this was published before the departure of the 2nd squadron, and it’s very interesting on whose initiative


                  In what exact month it was published I can not write. But the compilation of the combat schedule began in 1903.

                  " Currently, a special commission formed by the General Naval Headquarters has begun work on the compilation of ship schedules ". 1903

                  It got to the 2nd squadron, because initially, according to the "Special note" filed by Colonel V.A.Alekseev (this is the correct surname), such an instruction was prepared for the Pacific squadron and published by order of the GMSH, 2nd squadron at that time still did not exist. The main, complete, edition on the management of artillery in battle was being prepared for publication at the end of 1903.

                  We see a very old charter and two optional additions. Judging by your scans, there were some other documents on the topic of combat training.


                  The fact is that it is impossible to compare the work of Admiral G.I.Butakov with the work of Admiral Makrov S.O.Admiral Butakov G.I., realizing the cumbersomeness of the squadron formation, took as a basis the French division of the squadron into detachments of three ships, he not only detailed the action of each ship when rebuilding to one or another formation, but I also checked this in practice. When he commanded a detachment of propeller-driven ships in the Baltic, he also prepared the maneuvering of a squadron divided into squadrons consisting of four ships. True, the latter was, as they say now, "constructive criticism", since the fourth ship, when rebuilding in some ranks, created difficulties in maneuvering. He developed a basic document for the maneuvering of the squadron.
                  In addition, he actively advocated the construction of ships in series to create uniform squads in the squadron, both in terms of maneuverability and fire effect.
                  There were also documents on combat training, but about them later, if this interests you, otherwise it is not a comment, but an article is obtained. .
                  1. 0
                    18 May 2019 22: 42
                    Damn interesting! Are you really publishing an article on this topic? I'd love to read!
    5. +1
      16 May 2019 12: 57
      Quote: geniy
      Therefore, the Japanese fleet was almost doomed. But Rozhdestvensky refused rapprochement

      And he also refused to install blasters, instead of a mine caliber, and a cavalry ambush in a nearby ravine.
      Kind. Half of the ships of the line, The second MOT is an obsolete rabble. The Japanese were inferior in speed even in the original performance characteristics. Theoretically, Borodino and slack were not inferior. And then, theoretically, and not after a semicircle. Rozhdestvensky, even in theory, could not refuse rapprochement or removal there. Even separating the four Borodinians + slack. Togo chose the battlefield. And he could cut it or tear it at its discretion.
      1. -2
        16 May 2019 18: 52
        Half of the ships of the line, The second MOT is an obsolete rabble. The Japanese were inferior in speed even in the original performance characteristics. Theoretically, Borodino and slack were not inferior. And then, theoretically, and not after a semicircle. Rozhdestvensky, even in theory, could not refuse rapprochement or removal there.

        This is your general misconception. The fact is that the steam engines of ships practically do not wear out at all from long crossings, and peaceful ships go for dozens of months without rebuilding cars. In fact, the sides of the ships are surrounded by shells. But the bottom line is that the squadron of Rozhestvensky almost scrapped the sides of their ships with scrapers, but the Japanese did not clean them. And the Japanese were even surprised at how clean the bottoms of the captured Russian ships were. Therefore, the latest Russian ships were not inferior to the Japanese. And your second misconception is that the old Russian ships had a speed less than that of the Japanese. The fact is that if you want to get closer, then the Japanese alternative is only to either get closer to the Russians (which the Russians would like to) or shamefully run away while keeping their distance But what a misfortune - Russian shells fly anyway faster than any ship. And then two columns of ships would receive longitudinal shots and some wrecked ships would suddenly lose speed and stop. But none of the profane experts know the law that the escaping squadron has a disadvantage over the advancing one in that its wrecked ships lose speed and remain surrounded by the advancing squadron. But at the advancing Russian squadron, the wrecked ships simply go back and finish off the stopped Japanese ships.
        1. +1
          16 May 2019 19: 16
          Quote: geniy
          The fact is that the steam engines of the ships practically do not wear out from lengthy transitions and the peace ships go for tens of months without reassembling the machines.

          False
          Quote: geniy
          But the bottom line is that the squadron of Rozhestvensky had almost covered its ships with scrapers, but the Japanese didn’t clean it

          again a lie - not a single krengovaniya during the campaign
          Quote: geniy
          Therefore, the newest Russian ships did not yield speed to the Japanese.

          Enchanting nonsense, repeatedly refuted by numerous squadron officers and common sense
          1. +2
            16 May 2019 23: 33
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            again a lie - not a single krengovaniya during the campaign

            Fuuu ... Only in the last article did you poke me into Levitsky’s testimony and have you already forgotten? For example, that Levitsky refused to clean the bottom for fear of damaging the patented protective layer. Your selective memory. Dreamer. You are ours. laughing
            1. +1
              17 May 2019 15: 48
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Fuuu ... You only in the last article poked me into the testimony of Levitsky, and have already forgotten yourself? For example, that Levitsky refused to clean the bottom for fear of damaging the patented protective layer.

              Saksaors, already tired, honestly :))))
              On 2TOE there was no inclination, with the help of which it would be possible to clean the bottoms from growths. But in Madagascar, for this purpose, divers were used, at the same time, even you should have understood that it is physically impossible to clean the bottom of an armadillo by divers
              1. +1
                17 May 2019 23: 11
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It should have been clear to you that it’s physically impossible to clean the bottom of an armadillo with divers.

                Why then cleaned? :))
                1. +2
                  17 May 2019 23: 52
                  But it should be! soldier There are divers in the state, so they should work. laughing But you can cleanse such a bandura as "Borodino", even if you drive people from all over the fleet under water. The five of us got worn out to clean the belly of the forty-ton WFD, and that was of little use, but here the carcass of crayfish ... her, it's not serious. hi
                  1. +2
                    18 May 2019 00: 18
                    Quote: Sea Cat
                    The five of us went out of our way to clean the belly of the XNUMX-ton WFD, and that was of little use, but here the carcass of the carcass ... her, this is not serious

                    As far as I understand, divers only started there. (if there were divers at all at that time :)) And so they cleaned it corny by pulling a cable along the hull. Maybe that's why some refused, paint on his belly regretted.
                    1. +1
                      18 May 2019 00: 32
                      Perhaps so, but what kind of paint is there under the water by this time remained. Although the devil knows him ...
                      1. +2
                        18 May 2019 00: 40
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Perhaps so, but what kind of paint is there under the water by this time remained. Although the devil knows him ...

                        Fouling in the tropics is a real problem.

                        But judging by the testimonies and reports with this, in the 2nd squadron still struggled. And relatively successful.
                      2. 0
                        18 May 2019 00: 44
                        All the same, it didn’t help ... I basically feel sorry for the people who were ditched for nothing.
                      3. +3
                        18 May 2019 00: 50
                        The military, especially personnel, have no right to spare themselves. For the very beginning of the war, one must ask from the top. There was no obligatory reason for her then, because of their stupidity they got in. But the stupidity and cowardice of the then commanders did indeed multiply the losses.
                      4. +1
                        18 May 2019 01: 11
                        I'm not talking about personnel - this is their work, they themselves chose their fate and knew what they were doing. Not about them. And the rest, you correctly noted everything.
          2. +1
            17 May 2019 22: 52
            The fact is that the steam engines of the ships practically do not wear out from lengthy transitions and the peace ships go for tens of months without reassembling the machines.

            Andrey from Chelyabinsk: Lies

            You don’t understand a squirrel in steam engines.
            I quote the book of Admiral Makarov:
            "...really, machine stop (for repair) on commercial steamers an exceptional phenomenon. I three years commanded the steamer Grand Duke Constantine ... and within three years the ship made 58 (fifty eight thousand !!!) miles in different moves - from the smallest to the most complete. Only once, when the mechanic and the driver changed, a mechanic came to me and said that one bearing was tapping. He asked to stop the car for 5 minutes and was very embarrassed by such an extraordinary event. He immediately told me that the accident occurred due to the fact that the predecessor at the time of delivery did not give him what should be done, but the malfunction will never happen again, and she really didn't happen anymore ..."
            Pay attention to all the fake "experts" and especially Andrey from Chelyabinsk that in three years the steamer's car was stopped for repair only once for 5 minutes!
            And if different ignoramuses cite the example of constant repairs of boilers on the battleship Oslyabya, then we must understand that unsuccessful boilers of the new system were installed on three battleships of this type.
          3. 0
            17 May 2019 23: 18
            But the point is that Rozhestvensky’s squadron cleaned the sides of its ships with scrapers, but the Japanese didn’t

            Andrey from Chelyabinsk: again a lie - not a single krenging during the campaign

            This is the stupidity of Andrei from Chelyabinsk. Krengovanie (i.e. bank tilt to clean the bottom, as was done with sailing ships)
            Of course not. But the Russian sailors used a completely different way. And Andrei from Chelyabinsk and other profane is very profitable to denigrate Russian ships - they say they had a lack of speed.
            I quote the book Kostenko page 339 Parking in Madagascar
            February, 15. Repair work.
            On the ships of the squadron, work has begun on cleaning the underwater part of the hulls from shells and algae that have grown to the outer skin during the cruise (that is, the operation of the newest ship on the water from launching in just 10 months - and most of it in the cold waters of the Baltic). The work is carried out with the participation of divers. We also try to use the keel ends with metal scrapers. The entire main armor belt to a depth of 7 feet (2 meters) was overgrown with a long green "beard". Bottom cleaning has already been completed at Almaz, Suvorov and Alexander. And now it's the turn of Borodino and Eagle. Cleaning of the outer skin is usually carried out with the entry of ships into dry docks. Since this is not available for our squadron, we have to resort to cleaning with the help of divers and scrapers ... (Note: here it is necessary to clarify that apparently divers were initially considered the main force, and then it turned out that scrapers are more important - because one diver knocks, and the scraper is pulled by several people, pressing it with all their strength, and the divers apparently only guided the scrapers, or in the area of ​​inaccessible places for scrapers). According to the divers. the horizontal part of the bottoms of the ships remained completely clean during the 4,5 months of the voyage and anchorage in the warm seas. Fouling is observed only on vertical underwater sides (Note: to a depth of only 2 meters - that is, it is accessible to human growth). Cleaning allows you to count on the speed of the battleships will increase by 1,5-2 knots. (!!!)
            So - the Japanese, when docking captured Russian ships, were surprised at how clean their bottoms would be! After all, the Russians cleared of algae just three months before the battle, and the Japanese ships, although they had the opportunity to clean up the dock, but they had to wait for their turn to dock about a year. Thus, it can be assumed that the latest Russian ships could even have a slight speed advantage over Japanese battleships!
            1. +1
              18 May 2019 11: 10
              Quote: geniy
              Japanese ships, although they had the opportunity to clean up the dock, but they had to wait for their turn to dock the order of the year

              Passer-by, I understand that you are a communist, but fear God then!
              The main ports by 1904 were protected by strong coastal fortifications. As a military base, they had the following production capabilities:

              1. Sasebo - state admiralty (3558 workers), marine arsenal (693 workers), 4 dry docks, including two for armadillos.

              2. Yokosuka - state admiralty (6445 workers, cruisers and destroyers were built), marine arsenal (789 workers), 4 dry docks.

              3. Kure - the state admiralty (5815 workers, cruisers and destroyers were built), an artillery factory (7513 workers), 2 dry docks, including one for armadillos.

              4. Maizuru - treasury admiralty, naval arsenal, 3 dry docks, including two for large armadillos and one for destroyers. Xnumx

              Ominato and Takesiki had small floating docks; the last port was a destroyer station. All military ports had stockpiles of necessary supplies and weapons.

              Large commercial ports — Osaka, Yokohama, Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Kobe, Moji and others — occupied an important place in the fleet-based system. Many of them had private shipyards and docks - including eight commercial docks over 120 m long each could be taken by armadillos and cruisers, also 17 (less than 120 m in length) small cruisers, gunboats and destroyers.

              In other words, in Japan there were at least five state-owned and eight private large docks. In principle, they could drive the entire combined fleet into docks at the same time. It is clear that this was not done, but a year to wait for the dock ... this is strong even for you!
        2. +4
          16 May 2019 20: 09
          Quote: geniy
          The fact is that the steam engines of ships practically do not wear out from long transitions

          Please rave? But do not tell me, for example, how can a boiler work with burnt pipes and a furnace? If from the point of view of physics, then this is very problematic Yes
          By the way. The most striking example of high-speed machine wear is the Japanese BrKr. Builders, urged by the customer, zabatsali almost limit ships. To save weight, the machines were delivered high-speed, with a relatively long piston stroke and a short connecting rod, and as a result, an exorbitant load on the parallels. Total? Without any races in the style of Kronstadt - Tsushima, the Japanese lost 2 to 4 knots, according to various sources. And if Tsushima took place a day after the surrender of PA, Donskoy would be a very playful walker against the background of the Garibaldians. Perhaps even overtook them Yes
          Quote: geniy
          The fact is, if you go closer,

          The fact is that 4 people from Borodino and 1 mutant could have approached us. These are 16 - 12 ", 4 - 10" and 59 - 6 ". The Japanese have 4 ebras and 8 brkr. These are 16 - 12", 1 - 10 ", 30 - 8" and 160 - 6 ".
          Taking into account that 305/40 Obukhov is about 20% slower than 305/40 Armstrong, 6 "cane is a quarter slower than the same Armstrong, the overspeed increases by another 1 / 5-1 / 4.
          Further. Those approaching rapprochement find themselves in an even worse situation. If you approach the column, 1 bow tower of the first ship works. There remains the option of a bearing or a front. Then in the case of 8 to 12, 2 to 10, and a six-inch running of the mutant. It’s true that the bearing, that the front does not leave a single chance to line up later, but okay. Let it be.
          Further. And then the dispersion ellipse comes into play. It sounds ridiculous, but getting into a ship with its nose on you is easier than getting turned sideways. The scattering mainly occurs not left-right, but closer further. And the one who goes towards grabs everything that would fly over him, and part of what would not fly. I find it difficult to calculate the increase in the number of hits, but offhand the razik that way 2. Maybe a little less.
          Total For some time, it’s a mystery to me how much you got together to get together, 5 ships, working 8 twelve-inch and 2 ten, I don’t even think of a chase, they’re 38 to 12, 1 to 10, 72 to 8, and 200 to 6 inches. The number of Japanese art is increased, taking into account the greater rate of fire and the effect of the ellipse. You know, there is a feeling that everything would have ended on this rapprochement. Togo would not even turn away. Meaning? if you can beat, as in a dash? If in the line Rozhdestvensky could even have imagined that there is a chance to fight back due to an advantage of 12 inches, but could not find a way to counteract crossing, then like that .... Five pieces for the whole squadron? It’s easier to immediately open the kingstones.
          Quote: geniy
          But none of the profane experts know the law

          laughing
          No comment.
    6. +3
      16 May 2019 15: 28
      Quote: geniy
      The main culprit of the defeat is Admiral Rozhdestvensky! It is he who is guilty of the fact that the Russian fleet used non-explosive shells.

      Say thank you to the economical figures from the GUKiS:
      ... in 1896, it was planned, according to the head of the Ministry, Adjutant Chikhachev, who runs the ministry, to conduct extensive experiments ... on all kinds of shells that we have taken, including high-explosive ones, to determine their destructive effect ... The preliminary experiments program was presented ... Deputy Admiral Tyrtov, Director of the Maritime Ministry, who put forward the resolution: “I agree, but in accordance with the funds available for this. Report to the General Directorate. ” The General Directorate of Shipbuilding and Supplies informed the committee that the alleged experiments would cause an expense of up to 70000 rubles; that on the economic side, the very experiments are no longer of great importance, since the shells required for the ships were made or ordered almost to the full combat set; that it considers it possible to allow the production of experiments only in passing when testing shells, plates ... and that these considerations were approved by the managing ministry. Such a decision, in essence, was tantamount to a complete rejection of the experiments.
    7. 0
      17 May 2019 15: 18
      Admiral Rozhestvensky designed, produced the necessary number of shots at his plants. Uploaded to the ships and went to the Far East. Itself. Yes?
  3. +3
    16 May 2019 11: 02
    Rozhdestvensky’s plans did not include accepting the battle. He hoped that the Japanese had divided their fleet into several parts and were guarding it in different places. And he, having met with some squad, exchanging fire, will leave for Vladivostok. Therefore, he kept all the ships in a heap. If you send intelligence ahead, then you can detect the enemy earlier, which did no good. But at the same time, the enemy will sooner detect you, which allowed him to begin earlier concentrating the entire fleet against our squadron ..
    1. +3
      16 May 2019 11: 33
      Quote: glory1974
      Rozhestvensky's plans did not include taking the fight. He hoped that the Japanese had divided their fleet into several parts and guarded it in different places.

      Rozhestvensky never hoped for anything like that. He knew that the main Japanese forces would meet him in Tsushima.
  4. +3
    16 May 2019 11: 24
    Andrey, thank you for not leaving an interesting topic.
    About Izumi he himself was always perplexed: why was there a complete ignorance of the reconnaissance officer walking in parallel, why radio interference was not created, because even then they probably understood that he was just "shining" the squadron and what would follow.
    Regarding Rozhdestvensky's actions, it seems to me that he simply did not anticipate such a defeat. After all, there were no such precedents before. On the contrary, in those days, battleships and cruisers demonstrated unique survivability and all battles were limited to skirmishes with minor damage and the loss of one or two ships. Most likely, he hoped that the main forces would still reach Vladivostok, "hiding behind" several ships as a victim. I repeat once again, before that there were no precedents for the loss of an entire armored squadron in the world.
    1. +3
      16 May 2019 11: 34
      Quote: Resident of the Urals
      Most likely, he hoped the main forces still reach Vladivostok

      So it was, he talked about it himself. That is Rozhestvensky assumed that the squadron with the loss of several ships will be held in Vladivostok
      1. +3
        16 May 2019 12: 25
        Good day, Andrey! hi A resident of the Urals is right - the topic is inexhaustible, and I think that you will return to it more than once or twice, which, by the way, will be interesting to everyone.
        I know how you feel about Kostenko, but in his book he suggested dividing the squadron into two parts: send slow-moving old and transport junk to Vladik in a roundabout way, and on high-speed and new ships to break through the strait at full speed, diverting attention from the first group. In this version, both "Kamushka" would be exactly in their place.
        No, I’m not an alternative person and not a military sailor, I understand that history does not have a subjunctive mood ... but nevertheless, the idea in my opinion is sound, but as you think.
        For your labors, as always, sincere gratitude.
        Happy Holidays! drinks
        1. +3
          16 May 2019 12: 42
          Quote: Sea Cat
          but still, the thought in my opinion is sensible, but how do you think.

          Konstantin, welcome! hi
          in fact, such a division of the squadron did not make any sense at all. The "faster" wing of the squadron was still slower than the Japanese fleet and would have been quickly destroyed by it on May 14, after which the Japanese would have advanced, as they were going, to Vladivostok. There they would have split the second part of the Russian squadron. This is in fact.
          But most importantly, such an idea does not at all take into account the order that Rozhestvensky received. He did not have an order "to break through at least part of the forces to Vladivostok." He had an order to "defeat the Japanese forces in a general battle and seize the sea." Of course, ideally, it would be best to go to Vladivostok, rest and repair after the transition, and then go into battle. But this is from the realm of fantasy, it would make sense only if Rozhestvensky could lead the entire squadron there. And there was no point in sacrificing a part of the squadron for this, because the rest would already be too weak for general action.
          1. +2
            16 May 2019 12: 52
            It means that the epic of the second squadron cannot be called otherwise as "The Campaign of the Doomed" ... It's a pity. And what, in St. Petersburg there was not a single bright head capable of dissuading the emperor from sending ships there at all? Or it could not have occurred to anyone in these heads that the Japanese would simply roll out such a number of ships like a leaf on a blooming mill. It was a strange war, because Kuropatkin practically did not lose a single battle on land, he simply retreated, retreated and retreated. Was rock hanging over Russia then? So you will involuntarily believe in mysticism, even if you are a purely materialist. Here and now ... but, okay, that's another topic. hi
            1. +3
              16 May 2019 13: 18
              1TOE was inferior in strength to 2TOE but avoided such a rout and was a step away from owning the Yellow Sea. So it’s impossible to call the 2TOE campaign doomed. Fatal bad luck haunted the entire Russian war, and the Japanese were very lucky. In general, the defeat of the fleet is a chain of events and circumstances, some of which could have been avoided.
              1. +2
                16 May 2019 13: 37
                Lucky - unlucky ... More A.V. Suvorov long before and regardless of whether he said: "Luck, luck, well, give me at least a little talent." This applies to both ours and the Japanese. request
              2. +2
                16 May 2019 14: 16
                Quote: Nehist
                was a step away from owning the Yellow Sea.

                Excuse me, what are you talking about?
              3. +3
                16 May 2019 15: 24
                Quote: Nehist
                1TOE was inferior in strength to 2TOE but avoided such a defeat and was a step away from owning the Yellow Sea.

                She has never been there, neither in a step, nor in ten
                1. +1
                  16 May 2019 15: 30
                  It is your opinion. And after the undermining of the Japanese EDB, there was a very
                  1. 0
                    16 May 2019 15: 37
                    Quote: Nehist
                    And after the detonation of the Japanese EDB was and very

                    Where did the Russian XBNUMX 3s have one of them with lightweight 254-mm guns, and the second with speed limiting in 10-12 nodes + the Vladivostok squad were close to a victory over the Japanese X-Menus 4 and 8 BRKR?
                    In no course
                    1. +1
                      16 May 2019 15: 41
                      And where are you still 3 ADB Delhi?
                      1. +1
                        16 May 2019 15: 58
                        Quote: Nehist
                        And where are you still 3 ADB Delhi?

                        Repaired, however. Retvizan and Tsesarevich are still not on the run after a mine attack, Victory after a mine exploded on the day of Petropavlovsk’s death.
                      2. +2
                        16 May 2019 17: 07
                        Well, and before the death of Petropavlovsk was such a chance?
                      3. +1
                        16 May 2019 17: 45
                        Quote: Trapper7
                        Well, and before the death of Petropavlovsk was such a chance?

                        5 EBR of which 2 - Peresvet and Pobeda, that is, with a weakened main battery against 6 EBR + 4 BRKR (do not count the kamimura and the Vladivostok detachment)? Considering that our 3 EBRs with 305-mm guns are roughly equivalent to the oldest Japanese EBRs of the Fuji type, and their 4 new EBRs have no equal? And even with poorly trained gunners? Somehow doubtful
                      4. +1
                        16 May 2019 19: 35
                        In short, once again, the combat capabilities of the fleet in wartime are determined not so much by the performance characteristics of ships as by the basing conditions and the quality of command training. That is, those factors that we traditionally consider it possible to neglect in peacetime and which are the first to fall under the "economy". As a result, we have a numerical superiority on paper, but in fact only three EDRs are ready to come out.
                      5. +1
                        16 May 2019 23: 49
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        the combat capabilities of the fleet in wartime are determined not so much by the performance characteristics of the ships as by the conditions of basing and the quality of training of the teams.

                        You forgot the main thing. Bad governance and command devalued the fleet in advance. And there’s no need to transfer arrows to teams.
                      6. +3
                        17 May 2019 15: 24
                        Quote: Saxahorse
                        You forgot the main thing. Bad governance and command devalued the fleet in advance. And there’s no need to transfer arrows to teams.

                        And no one translates. The quality of training teams is really directly related to the quality of fleet management.
                        They saved on a normal training ship for training machine commands - they got completely killed on the way to the Far East cars and boilers "Victory" - and already in Mediterranean. For the machine crew did not know the boilers and mechanisms.
                        Looking at the personal engine personnel on the fleet ships during factory delivery tests, I am simply amazed at the almost complete inconsistency with regard to such complex and expensive mechanisms that they have to operate. The weakness and inconsistency of these personnel is almost a universal fact on the ships of our fleet ... Due to a complete misunderstanding of the control of fire, water, donkeys, automatic feeders, etc ... [Victory boilers were brought into] an amazingly damaged, rusted and unfavorable state .

                        The picture was the same with Oslyabey.
                      7. +3
                        16 May 2019 19: 36
                        I can imagine how many good words the Commander of the Vladivostok port would say if 2 and 3 TOEs still broke into Vladivostok.
                        Artillery Repair:
                        As for the port artillery workshops, I can point out that in 1904, that is, during the war, the building of the workshops was completely finished; but their equipment was delayed for a long time by sending electric motors and transmissions for the movement of the crane, machine tools, fans and other mechanical devices. The battle of a detachment of cruisers on August 1, 1904 with a Japanese squadron, under the command of Rear Admiral Jessen, confirmed this need. The artillery on the cruisers "Russia" and "Stormbreaker" was in very bad shape; there were almost no spare parts in the arsenal, and so I had to do everything anew using the port facilities. Decisively with all 8 and 6 inches. machine tools lifting mechanisms were broken and they had to be done completely again. There was a persistent rumor about the sending of the 2nd Pacific Squadron from Kronstadt, and there was firm reason to think that in the event of a successful breakthrough to Vladivostok, this squadron would bring artillery not in the best, but maybe in the worst condition. The need for a workshop was made even more urgent.
                        Finally, in early January 1905, I was aware that the motors were on the road, and at the end of February they arrived.
                        The allocated amounts for the construction and equipment of artillery workshops were insufficient and therefore it was impossible to do much that would have been necessary to have directly in the workshops. So, for example, the workshops had a weak ¼ ton hammer, although it would be necessary to have a hammer up to 5 tons, which, incidentally, the whole port did not have. The workshops did not have a foundry, at least for castings of 50 pounds of metal and a friend. Forging large things and casting had to be transferred to other port workshops, which, as experience has shown, was extremely inconvenient for many reasons.
                        If we add the above to the existing artillery workshops, I believe that they could cope with the artillery work of the entire 2nd squadron, which had to break into Vladivostok. Of course, success would have been even more probable if Vladivostok’s vast arsenal had in advance stored a certain percentage of tools, machine tools, and in general things requiring factory manufacture and produced by the gross route; under this condition, the work of the workshop would be limited to final finishing, fit and installation in place.

                        Ammunition:
                        After the supply of the 2nd squadron of the Pacific Ocean, all the combat reserves of the port, except for 8 "guns of 45 cal., Finally dried up and further replenishment of the detachment of Vladivostok cruisers, ships of the Siberian Flotilla and the Mine Detachment with combat reserves should have been The 2nd squadron, having broken through to Vladivostok and received only half the supply of large-caliber guns, would thus have been noticeably weakened.
                        Thus, the above conclusions give a general conclusion that by May 15, 1905, the military reserves in Vladivostok were insufficient, and that, in the sense of military supply, he could not support further military operations of the fleet.
                        Further supply depended entirely on the success of the delivery of military supplies from European Russia and the speed at which these supplies were prepared for release from the artillery laboratory. In general, the delivery of stocks to Vladivostok, due to many circumstances, was slow; equipment of combat stocks, at least one set for all ships of the fleet, would require a lot of time. In any case, for the formation of one complete combat set of shells, charges, ammunition, etc., I think that it would take at least five or six months.
                        It was impossible to count on the coastal defense of the fortress of Vladivostok, in the sense of a loan of military reserves, since I know for certain that the fortress itself was needed, resorting more than once to the help of the Maritime Department.

                        © Testimony of the Chief Artilleryman of the Vladivostok Port Colonel of the Marine Artillery Corps Savitsky.
                      8. +4
                        17 May 2019 10: 30
                        Here is the answer to the question of why ZPR was dragging transports with it.
                      9. +2
                        16 May 2019 19: 44
                        On the day of the undermining of the Japanese EDB, there was every chance of ditching the third. This was the opportunity to enjoy the Yellow Sea. Unfortunately the opportunity was not used
                      10. +2
                        16 May 2019 20: 49
                        Quote: Nehist
                        On the day of the bombing of the Japanese ADB, there was every chance of ditching a third one.

                        I wonder how. Of the three battleships that we had at our disposal, none of them could catch up. But even if the fastest "Peresvet" succeeded - do you seriously think that he would be able to sink the "Sikisima"? :))))
                      11. +2
                        16 May 2019 22: 57
                        Was it he in the Yellow Sea that incapacitated the aft tower of the Civil Code of the Siksima you mentioned? So the chances were complete, the more Siksima initially towed a damaged EDB
                      12. +1
                        17 May 2019 10: 33
                        The maximum that they could manage is to sink the "Yasima", which is already sunk. But at least the Japanese would not have been able to hide it.
                      13. 0
                        17 May 2019 10: 36
                        I’m not sure, but what if Siksima could have been knocked down? The cruisers would have clearly gone, but Siksima against three EDBs is guaranteed to go to the bottom.
                      14. +1
                        17 May 2019 14: 53
                        Quote: Nehist
                        Not sure, what if Siksime could have shot down?

                        How and what? Have we shot down a single move in a single Japanese EDB?
            2. +3
              16 May 2019 13: 24
              hi This is not Rock!) RI, by the time RYAV, came to a dead end. In that form / ideology, the country stopped developing (one principle of appointments to positions is worth it: "august meat" as an example) Changes were brewing. The war only exposed the accumulated problems in all spheres.
            3. +1
              16 May 2019 23: 45
              Quote: Sea Cat
              And what, in St. Petersburg there was not a single bright head able to dissuade the emperor from sending ships there at all? Or it couldn’t have come to anyone’s head that the Japanese would simply roll out so many ships like a blooming sheet. It was a strange war,

              The shipbuilding program for the Far East itself was justified by the fleet’s ability to independently ensure the security of new possessions. After such assurances, abandoning the Japanese challenge is tantamount to political suicide.

              Well, in fact, both the 1st and 2nd squadrons were really equal, and even somewhat superior to the Japanese. Even with minimal perseverance, cutting out the Japanese fleet with two squadrons is more than realistic. And one 2nd squadron had a good chance of a draw.
              1. +1
                17 May 2019 13: 20
                "After such assurances, abandoning the Japanese challenge is tantamount to political suicide."

                Well, this is how it all ended up not only with the political suicide of the authorities, but also with the physical "elimination" of its bearer. request
                1. +1
                  17 May 2019 23: 22
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Well, this is how it all ended up not only with the political suicide of the authorities, but also with the physical "elimination" of its bearer

                  And there is. Despite all attempts to quickly excuse himself from responsibility, the tsar-father had to shoot a lot at the people in 1905 to silence them. But our last home-worker did not have enough intelligence to jump off the already burning topic of answering for the country in time. If you don’t wait, retire! And the answer for the further would be held by the "temporary". And so sorry, they were greedy and decided to fix it for another ten years - if you please, you remembered everything.
  5. +3
    16 May 2019 13: 23
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Quote: geniy
    It is he who is guilty of the fact that the Russian fleet used non-explosive shells.

    laughing fool
    No comments. Taking into account the fact that at the time of taking light projectiles into the treasury Rozhestvensky was the cruiser commander - well, who else could be guilty if not him? :)))
    Quote: geniy
    But even such shells were very effective in close range combat.

    Were neither far nor close
    Quote: geniy
    Therefore, the Japanese fleet was almost doomed. But Rozhestvensky refused to draw closer, and by this the Russian fleet doomed to death.

    Nothing that the main forces in Tsushima sometimes converged on 10 cables?

    But nothing that during the battle in the Yellow Sea, with the same weapons, on our ships, and with the numerical advantage of the Japanese, even our completely uncontrollable squadron (loss of the commander) did not lose a single ship (was not sunk), but they lost it during Tsushima the whole fleet.
    1. +4
      16 May 2019 14: 22
      Quote: lucul
      But nothing that when fighting in the Yellow Sea, with the same weapons, on our ships, and with the numerical advantage of the Japanese

      But from this moment in more detail, please, where did you see the numerical advantage of the Japanese there?
      Six battleships, against four and two Garibaldians to boot. ("Yakumo" barely managed to make a few shots at "Poltava", and "Asama" was an extra at all).

      And it seems that the Japanese shells in ZhM and Tsushima were still different.
      1. +2
        16 May 2019 15: 35
        Disputes on this subject are constant about what shells the Japanese had during the battle in the Yellow Sea. I didn’t find a clear answer anywhere in the documents
      2. +1
        16 May 2019 22: 50
        Quote: Senior Sailor
        And it seems that the Japanese shells in ZhM and Tsushima were still different.


        Lutonin believed not. It is more logical to assume that in the first case people who still somehow believed in their strength went into battle, in the second - demoralized by the alarmist commander, with the mood "they sent us to the slaughter", "would rather drown so as not to suffer", "let's go to payback "(as one of the participants in the battle called his book). Hence the tales about Japanese shells are 22 times more powerful than Russian ones. From there, tales about Russian shells, allegedly worse than those of 1TOE, supposedly never explode.
        1. 0
          17 May 2019 10: 19
          Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
          Lutonin thought no

          Well, Sergey Ivanovich, I thought a lot. Even that the first squadron fired better than the second, which statistics does not seem to confirm.
          Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
          Hence, the tales of Japanese shells are 22 times more powerful than Russian ones.

          I don’t know what you mean, but the difference in the number of explosives is more than tangible. Although, of course, not 22 times, but did you say 22 at random?
          1. +3
            17 May 2019 17: 58
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            You said 22 at random?


            Of course at random, just not me, but Vladimir Ivanovich Semenov, Andrei from Chelyabinsk has the best source.
            1. 0
              17 May 2019 19: 52
              Is it possible to quote as a whole? To be honest, I don’t remember that.
              But in general, Semenov, unlike Lutonin, was in the Yellow Sea and Tsushima, so ...
              1. +2
                17 May 2019 20: 49
                Quote: Senior Sailor
                Is it possible to quote as a whole? To be honest, I don’t remember that.


                Memory failed. 12 times.

                In a rough approximation, we can say that one successfully exploded Japanese shell caused the same destruction as 12 of ours, which also successfully exploded. But these latter often did not break at all
                "Pay"

                Quote: Senior Sailor
                But in general, Semenov, unlike Lutonin, was in the Yellow Sea and Tsushima,


                Yes, but Semenov observed explosions of the Japanese 12-inch in the Yellow Sea only from afar.
                1. +1
                  18 May 2019 10: 53
                  Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
                  Memory failed.

                  It happens.
                  But the effectiveness of the Japanese shells was really higher than that of the Russians. And the continuity of our shells did occur, and it can not be said that rarely. Gribovsky says that there were a third.
          2. +1
            21 May 2019 22: 54
            I don’t know what you mean, but the difference in the number of explosives is more than tangible.

            but armor-piercing is different - but in the opposite direction. A small explosion behind the armor is more dangerous than a large explosion on the armor
            1. +1
              22 May 2019 09: 09
              Quote: AK64
              A small explosion behind the armor is more dangerous than a large explosion on the armor

              Alas, often and thickly, no explosion. Just a neat hole and minimal damage behind it.
              The fact that the Japanese did not have high-quality armor-piercing shells does not make Russians wunderwafers. Actually, the fact that after the war the first thing was done was shells, as it were ...
              1. +1
                22 May 2019 09: 18
                But am I not constantly talking about this? (Fingers already knocked down)

                But we are talking about two different things: (1) the concept itself and (2) its implementation.
                So with the concept, everything is fine - not perfect, but quite normal. But the implementation .... Moreover, IMHO (and I also said that) it was not a marriage but a direct sabotage: there could not be such a huge percentage of explosions during a marriage.

                Test results of shells in Vladik --- depressing ..
                1. 0
                  22 May 2019 09: 44
                  Quote: AK64
                  it was not a marriage but a direct diversion:

                  I do not like conspiracy theories, but really, there are somehow a lot of accidents ...
                  Although, stupidity is worse than treason.
                  1. +1
                    22 May 2019 11: 42
                    If there are too many coincidences, then this is hardly a coincidence.

                    One delay in the exit of the 2nd squadron - until October, when the campaign completely lost all meaning and became suicide - it says a lot: at first Rozhdestvensky was kept and not allowed to go by all means, and then, when it became obvious LATE, he suddenly began to push out .. ..

                    The fact that Witte was a British agent is obvious to me. All his activities are agent activities. But it is also obvious that he was not the only one.
                    1. +1
                      22 May 2019 12: 18
                      Quote: AK64
                      One delay of the exit of the 2 squadron

                      By the way, yes. When ZPR is accused of being the initiator of the campaign, they somehow forget that he offered to go immediately, without waiting not only for "Eagle", but also for "Suvorov"
                      1. +1
                        22 May 2019 14: 05
                        Well, yes: Rozhdestvensky is constantly blamed (even here) for what he said in March. In March, Karl! But in February, and in March, and even in May, a campaign of even 3 EDB would change the strategic alignment in the Yellow Sea. Three EDBs, but in time - much more than 7 - but late.
    2. +1
      16 May 2019 15: 35
      Quote: lucul
      And nothing that during the battle in the Yellow Sea, with the same armament, on our ships, and with the numerical advantage of the Japanese, even our fully unmanaged squadron (loss of commander) did not lose a single ship (it was not sunk)

      The first is the number of hits. The most affected Russian EBR 1TOE - Peresvet, received 37 hits from the Japanese during the battle. "Eagle" in Tsushima received at least 65-70 hits, three other battleships of the "Borodino" - apparently much more. Oslyaba was not lucky - the shells just hit her extremely well for the Japanese. Thus, in Tsushima, the Japanese achieved a much larger number of hits on Russian ships. If you ask - why - I will answer that the first half of the fight in WM the Japanese mostly "pranced" at long distances, and got into the clinch only in the second phase of the fight.
      Secondly, it is more than likely that in Tsushima the Japanese used a different type of large-caliber projectiles than in the battle in the LM.
      Third - by the time of the death of V.K. Witgefta came twilight, and the Japanese artillery was stopped due to the deterioration of visibility, so this very death did not affect their tactics
      1. IBP
        0
        16 May 2019 17: 13
        This is partly true, but the main reason for the large number of hits by the Japanese was that the Japanese squadron made a maneuver that made it possible to concentrate fire from all the ships of the Japanese squadron with 12-inch guns on the 2TOE "head", and at the expense of Russian ammunition, then according to the testimony of our captured sailors Japanese ships were beaten, but did not have impressive internal destruction. In our opinion, the main reason for the defeat is the personal qualities of Rozhdestvensky and Nebogatov, if Makarov were in their place, perhaps Togo's fleet would go to the bottom.
        1. +1
          16 May 2019 17: 40
          Quote: IBP
          the main reason for the large number of hits by the Japanese was that the Japanese squadron made a maneuver, which made it possible to concentrate fire from all the ships of the Japanese squadron with 12-inch guns on the 2TOE "head"

          not a maneuver, but a series of maneuvers, as they repeatedly entered our heads. To avoid this, not having sufficient speed, alas, it was impossible
          1. IBP
            +1
            16 May 2019 18: 07
            I agree with the speed there were problems, this was overloading with coal and the presence of auxiliary vessels in the order, such as the floating workshop "Kamchatka" and transport workers, but if a different formation were applied or a different tactic of combat was applied if ... if ... looking forward to continuing the article.
            1. 0
              16 May 2019 18: 57
              Quote: IBP
              I agree with the speed there were problems it and coal overload

              There was no overload :)))
              1. IBP
                +1
                16 May 2019 19: 35
                On May 10, the last coal load was carried out; according to the testimony of officers and sailors, the coal pits were fully loaded. To pass the Korean Strait to Vladivostok did not require such a large amount of coal, while the admiral knew that meetings with the Japanese fleet could not be avoided, so why was loaded before the battle to the eyeballs, thereby reducing the performance characteristics of ships.
                1. +1
                  16 May 2019 19: 41
                  Quote: IBP
                  10 May was the last loading of coal, according to the testimony of officers and sailors coal pits were fully loaded.

                  You better look at the amount of coal on the squadron ships on 13 May (the Alma’s signal book) - there is NO overload anywhere, the ships have already spent coal and have gone with a margin above normal but below maximum, which is optimal for combat.
                  Quote: IBP
                  The passage of the Korean Strait to Vladivostok did not require such a large amount of coal.

                  It was just required, as by the results of the battle, the pipes usually get damaged, and the consumption of coal increases dramatically. In Tsesarevich after the battle in the LM, he grew roughly (from memory) over the day from 76 to 600 tons
                  1. IBP
                    0
                    16 May 2019 19: 49
                    There was coal on the transporters, which could even be loaded after a successful battle; on Japanese ships there was not a large supply of coal, which gave them an advantage.
                    1. +1
                      16 May 2019 20: 50
                      Quote: IBP
                      On the transport workers there was coal, which could even be loaded after a successful fight.

                      NON-WHO-CAN. Basically.
                      Quote: IBP
                      the Japanese ships did not have a large supply of coal

                      Here they are just overloaded with coal :)
                2. +2
                  16 May 2019 20: 04
                  About overload already so many copies are broken! With all my dislike for the Rozhdestvensky Admiral, he was literate and would not risk leaving coal on ships so much, all the more this is confirmed by documents. The Japanese, waiting for Rozhestvensky’s squadron, were overloaded with coal, which can be clearly seen in the photo where a cut of water reaches shots for attaching mine networks. But having received information about the detection of 2TOE, he moved to the meeting along the way, on the go, getting rid of excess coal, throw him overboard
              2. 0
                21 May 2019 23: 03
                There was no overload :)))

                how was it not?
      2. +1
        21 May 2019 23: 00
        "Eagle" in Tsushima received at least 65-70 hits

        Yes, the same 30-36. Well, where is 60-70 from?
        Secondly, it is more than likely that in Tsushima the Japanese used a different type of large-caliber projectiles than in the battle in the LM.

        It looks like this: "suitcases" --- very thin-walled with a large number of explosives due to their thinness.
        But the armor-piercing is obviously zero.
  6. 0
    16 May 2019 14: 49
    Quote: Senior Sailor
    Quote: lucul
    But nothing that when fighting in the Yellow Sea, with the same weapons, on our ships, and with the numerical advantage of the Japanese

    But from this moment in more detail, please, where did you see the numerical advantage of the Japanese there?
    Six battleships, against four and two Garibaldians to boot. ("Yakumo" barely managed to make a few shots at "Poltava", and "Asama" was an extra at all).

    And it seems that the Japanese shells in ZhM and Tsushima were still different.

    But destroyers do not play a role? Yes ?
    And the fact that our fleet was generally afraid to leave the port was afraid to get attacked by torpedoes or mine banks.
    1. +1
      17 May 2019 10: 25
      Quote: lucul
      But destroyers do not play a role? Yes ?

      So do not be shy, tell in all the chilling details what role Japanese destroyers played in the Battle of the Yellow Sea!
      And the fact that our fleet was generally afraid to leave the port

      Uh ... how would the battle in LM took place when the first squadron did go to sea. And neither torpedoes nor mine cans happened ... request
    2. 0
      21 May 2019 23: 06
      But destroyers do not play a role? Yes ?

      don't play yes. Exactly
  7. -1
    16 May 2019 21: 14
    From Rozhdestvensky the admiral - like the pope - from a pig. During the entire campaign of the 2nd squadron, this became clear to everyone - until the very last stoker. I thought to yell at the Japanese, as at their officers - they would give up. But for some reason they didn’t give up .... There was no plan — the ship commanders went in complete ignorance. At the trial, Rozhdestvensky himself admitted this ...
    1. +1
      17 May 2019 15: 41
      Quote: Crimea26
      From Rozhestvensky, the admiral - like a pope - from a pig.

      If you study the history of the documents, but not on Novikov Priboy's fables, this thesis seems completely unreliable
      1. 0
        17 May 2019 23: 26
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        If you study the history of the documents, but not on Novikov Priboy's fables, this thesis seems completely unreliable

        Let your alleged "axiom" immediately and deeply doubt. I reminded you that by all accounts, this admiral was simply stupid.
      2. +1
        17 May 2019 23: 46
        Andrei hi , well, why are you so Novikova? Unlike all those present, he was there and saw a lot. If he made a mistake somewhere, or somehow "cheated", then only the one who does nothing is not mistaken. Also an axiom.
        Sincerely, M.Kot. hi
        1. +3
          18 May 2019 12: 17
          Quote: Sea Cat
          If he made a mistake somewhere, or somehow "cheated", then only the one who does nothing is not mistaken.

          Yes, that's not the point, I think. I believe that Novikov carried out a specific order, and did not at all strive for historical authenticity.
          1. +3
            18 May 2019 13: 28
            Then it turns out that Novikov began to carry it out even before the October coup. Then whose order was it? And Kostenko "worked" with him in the same team? Andrey, somehow all this does not fit in with you. And it's too early for Glavpurov's tales. I'm not going to argue with you, but you are not giving convincing facts. Usually you are precise and specific. hi
            1. +1
              18 May 2019 13: 50
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Then it turns out that Novikov began to perform it even before the October Revolution

              By no means. Tsushima was written in 1940 year.
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Yes, and too early for Glavpurovskih tales.

              on the contrary, just the time
              Quote: Sea Cat
              And Kostenko "worked" with him in the same team?

              On Orel in Tsushima - this is generally 1955 year.
              Quote: Sea Cat
              I'm not going to argue with you, but you do not bring convincing facts.

              Konstantin, I do not understand :))) In my opinion, I have repeatedly cited these facts. Of course, you were not at all obliged to read all my writings, and I do not call you to this. hi But tell me please, did you come across my arguments on the falsity of "Tsushima", or did you come across, but you do not agree with it, and if the latter, then in what exactly?
              It is very easy to give examples of how Novikov misleads readers. This is the mention of the executions ("Now they are probably being executed") although he knew for sure that Rozhestvensky had not approved a single death sentence, and the description of the kneeling officers in Suvorov's control room (how would he know what was happening there? I assure you - there would have been a source, Novikov would definitely have mentioned it, referring to eyewitnesses!) And Rozhestvensky's "coal madness" (not a single 2TOE ship was overloaded with coal before the battle) and much, much more. For example, Novikov doused Semyonov with slops, but at the same time he was ashamed to mention that Semenov was highly valued by S.O. Makarov - I had to limit myself to "when he served under the command of one famous admiral" ... but there is a huge number of masterpieces
              1. +1
                18 May 2019 14: 01
                Andrey, I do not pretend to have an exclusive and thorough knowledge of history. I have not read your work on the falsity of "Tsushima", for sure it was even before my appearance here. Please explain to me how it can be found on our website. I would be grateful and read it with interest. hi
                1. 0
                  18 May 2019 15: 27
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Andrew, I do not pretend to an exceptional and thorough knowledge of history.

                  As I. hi drinks
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  I have not read your work on the lies of "Tsushima"

                  Separately, it was not there, you will have to do it at your leisure, perhaps :)))) In the cycle "Myths of Tsushima" I touched little Novikov, but it says a lot about "poorly shot gunmen" and "overloaded battleships", but you probably read? If not, then
                  https://topwar.ru/77049-mify-cusimy.html
                  https://topwar.ru/77215-mify-cusimy-prodolzhenie.html
                  https://topwar.ru/77654-mify-cusimy-chast-3.html
                  https://topwar.ru/77952-mify-cusimy-postskriptum.html
                  https://topwar.ru/78553-o-vozmozhnoy-taktike-russkih-v-cusime.html
                  and in the third part there is a detailed analysis of Novikov's phrase about "waterlogged pyroxylin", which he put into the mouth of Krylov for greater importance. Part 2 also mentions the wound of Rozhdestvensky - Novikov interprets it as insignificant, but the doctors in Sasebo did not dare to remove the fragments of the skull from the cranium for 2 months. And so, many of Novikov's statements were really refuted as they were discussed in various articles, now they cannot be found.
                  Maybe really take up the review of "Tsushima"? :))))
                  1. 0
                    18 May 2019 22: 46
                    And take it, I say this out of pure selfishness, so as not to look for separate materials, but to swallow everything at once. But get ready for the fact that, at best, they will call you a "revisionist" and promise to "burn at the stake". I will not be among this audience, I will not stupidly stand my ground if everything is clearly proven. Those. not like it was in one of our fantastic stories: "On three whales, she says, she stands, and as proof she bit her finger." You yourself understand how difficult it is to give up what you have lived with almost all your life, and Tsushima has been an icon for me since childhood, even now I remember when, where and how I bought the two-volume edition. Later I "read" Kostenko from someone, there was no other information in the Union at that time, sometimes old "Sea Sborniks" came into the hands, but only occasionally and not always in the subject. So don't really shelve and do a good deed. :)))
                    1. +1
                      19 May 2019 09: 15
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      , and "Tsushima" has been an icon for me since childhood

                      http://alternathistory.com/ty-ne-odin/
                      It’s just that we have to go further with time ...
              2. +2
                20 May 2019 06: 26
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                By no means. Tsushima was written in 1940 year.


              3. +2
                20 May 2019 07: 10
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And Kostenko "worked" with him in the same team? On Orel in Tsushima - this is generally 1955.


                Kostenko's wife handed over to the NP the diaries of Vladimir Polievktovich in 1928 after the latter was arrested. NP came to K. on a date in prison, where he allowed him to use his diaries for Tsushima, because K. himself was awaiting a death sentence and did not hope to ever publish them.

                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Glavpurovsky fairy tales


                S. Varshavsky acted as the main speaker and critic of the novel by Novikov-Priboy. In June, the magazines “Oktyabr” and “Volley” published his article “Tsushima“ Novikov-Priboy ”.
                Recognizing that the writer has comprehended a great deal of material, S. Varshavsky charged the author with serious accusations of “major ideological disruptions” and “greatest errors against the correct Leninist interpretation of events” ...

                S. Varshavsky is sincerely indignant at the appearance of positive responses to the novel by Novikov-Priboy, blaming the authors of the "enthusiastic praises" in the "political insensibility". His article by V. Kostenko, published in Literaturnaya Gazeta on December 23, 1932, is not particularly happy with him. It was Kostenko, according to Varshavsky, who hastened to bring the "ideological base" under one of the main mistakes of Novikov-Priboy. Warsaw writes: “Vl. Kostenko is in a hurry to make a stunning conclusion on his absurdity that “the sailors of the 2nd squadron consciously went to Calvary - this is the greatness of their sacrifice.”
                Only a politically completely illiterate person who does not know either the letter of Lenin’s statements, or the essence of Lenin’s methodology, is capable of blotting out all this nonsense with a single spirit. ”
                Calling the concept of Kostenko, “who is for Golgotha ​​and against the uprising,” opportunistic, S. Warsaw writes:

                “With regret, we have to note the significant proximity of the artistic images of Novikov-Priboy with the alien Leninism of the gibberish Kostenko.”

                The main conclusion drawn by S. Varshavsky is:

                “From here follows the hopeless philosophy of“ Tsushima ”- the impossibility of clearly raising the question of a revolutionary way out of the war, thinking on the principle of either“ victory or defeat of Russia, ”tactics of passivity and inaction, deterrence of the revolutionary masses.”

                In the end, Varshavsky asserts that in a certain sense Novikov-Priboy’s position is identical to the views of V. I. Semenov, the author of “Payback”: “... The official historian with the person of Rozhestvensky, his apologist Semenov and writer-sailor Novikov stretch each other before the bloody face of Tsushima hands to rush into the abyss not by mortal enemies, but by brothers. ”


                And vice versa:

                Old Russian officers are surprised to see in the Soviet book truthfully and honestly painted portraits of the commander of the "Wild" N.N. Kolomeytsov, to-ra "Donskoy" I.N. Lebedev and his senior officer K.P. Flea. With undisguised sympathy, the author mentions some of the junior officers. For this civic courage, for the image in the Soviet book of gold miners by knights without fear and reproach, much will be forgiven to Novikov-Pribo


                Prince Jason of the Mists.
                (Wikipedia: From June 1919 - Head of the Department of Maritime Counterintelligence of the Black Sea Ports [5] (in the Maritime Administration of the All-Russian Union of Railways), was engaged in the struggle against the Bolshevik underground in the fleet ... In 1939-1954 he was authorized by the Head of the Russian Imperial House (Vladimir Kirillovich ) [5]. Member of the Historical Commission of the Society of Former Russian Naval Officers in America, Chairman of the Paraguayan ROVS Group [1], Honorary Vice-Chairman of the “Center of Russian Culture and Arts” [5].)


                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                ("Now they'll probably be executed")


                The NP does not say that those arrested are being shot in the back of the head in the hold of the Suvorov. There is no direct lie. And what would await them in Vladivostok, get there the squadron - well, let everyone think to the best of their depravity. As far as I understand, Rozhestvensky did not plan to buy tickets to the house for everyone. Neither Rozhdestvensky himself nor Semyonov even hinted about this.
            2. 0
              21 May 2019 23: 12
              And Kostenko "worked" with him in the same team?

              Kostenko was an active member of a terrorist organization, Something like ISIS or Al Qaeda.
              What to expect from him?
        2. 0
          21 May 2019 23: 11
          why are you so Novikov? Unlike all those present, he was there and saw a lot.

          He saw nothing: the whole battle under the armor
          1. 0
            22 May 2019 14: 12
            And you spent the whole battle on the bridge and know where - who was? laughing
            1. 0
              22 May 2019 14: 52
              I just need to know where N-P was.
              And you would know that too - if you had carefully read his own book and got acquainted with the duties on the combat schedule
    2. 0
      21 May 2019 23: 09
      From Rozhestvensky, the admiral - like a pope - from a pig.

      Rozhdestvensky was one of the very few (less than a dozen names, and perhaps not even five names) of capable and adequate admirals.
      Yes Yes. Contrary to the opinion of the gorlopans.
      1. +1
        22 May 2019 14: 15
        You should not call those who disagree with you about something as "bawlers". Do not go below the plinth, it is unworthy. And you will never prove your case by swearing. As a rule, those who have nothing more to say, out of impotence, insult their opponents. request
        1. 0
          22 May 2019 14: 54
          it is unworthy.


          Unworthy First of all, to slander and lie. And insult. Especially to those and those who can no longer answer something in their defense - for they are dead.
          This is really unworthy, and just mean.

          But you - go ahead. Continue: you can.
          1. 0
            22 May 2019 15: 02
            Excuse me, have I offended someone? You, or Christmas? I expressed doubt about his competence as a squadron commander, and nothing more. Anyone has the right to an opinion, right? hi
            1. 0
              22 May 2019 15: 37
              Sorry,

              Forgive

              Anyone has the right to an opinion, right?

              (1) That is, only you can have an "opinion"?
              (2) Are you sure this is
              From Rozhestvensky, the admiral - like a pope - from a pig.
              - what is this "opinion"?

              You, of course, now declare that it was not written by you at all. So I will note in response: since it was you who climbed to "intercede" - that means you, too, took responsibility. Yes, yes, they did not just "subscribe" to this undisguised rudeness, but also took responsibility.
              1. 0
                22 May 2019 22: 48
                Andryusha, I didn't ask you for an apology, it's just a turn of speech. And you, before you teach someone the rules of good manners, learn these rules yourself. What do you mean "GET IT"? Who are you to talk to people in a similar tone, and even make accusatory speeches. You are exactly the same user as others, and know your place. And I hope that in the future you will do without banal rudeness. As for responsibility, it is not for you to teach me this, neither by rank nor by age.
  8. +5
    16 May 2019 23: 30
    Izumi discovered a Russian squadron at 06.18 Russian time


    Indeed, chasing the Izumi during the day did not make much sense when any other Japanese cruiser could appear from any other direction. Why didn't they try to drive away the Shinano-Maru? It turns out insanity. The entire squadron almost from Cape Skagen every night awaits an attack by Japanese destroyers. All officers are on their feet at night. Mine gun gunners too. Everyone peers into the darkness. And now, under the very nose of the crowd of people, a thousand or two meters away, it is not a torpedo boat or a boat that is walking, but a healthy steamer. It would be okay to walk, but also continuously broadcast on the air. And radiotelegraph operators on all ships receive these signals. And everyone knows they've been discovered. And in the squadron there are three cruiser scouts. That would give them the command to run along the squadron formation on both sides and see better who is impudent there. The Shinano-Maru could not escape. And he could not defend himself against "Svetlana" or "Izumrud". It takes three minutes to plug his radio station with a couple of shells from a thousand meters. Another five minutes - to sink with mines from traverse vehicles. Then abruptly change course. And put interference. Let them run until morning at least.
    1. +1
      18 May 2019 06: 37
      Why didn't they try to drive away the Shinano-Maru?


      The answer to the author’s rhetorical question lies directly on the surface. Admiral Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhdestvensky was simply
      ... is ill
    2. 0
      18 May 2019 15: 28
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      And right under the very nose of a crowd of people, in a thousand or so meters, not a destroyer, not a boat, but a healthy steamer

      he was not seen on the Russian squadron :))))
  9. +4
    17 May 2019 00: 07
    Why ZP Rozhdestvensky not used cruisers "Pearl" and "Emerald" in Tsushima for other purposes?

    The answer to the author's rhetorical question lies right on the surface. Admiral Zinovy ​​Petrovich Rozhestvensky was simply stupid. Maybe not so much as to stick a spoon in his ear instead of a mouth, but before him I had never met such a universal, derogatory attitude of officers towards their commander. The only question is, who put such a fool in charge? But here views immediately run into our last self-made, Nicholas II. To the great misfortune of our country, this king also did not shine with his mind, to put it mildly. This explains both the strange personnel decisions of RI and the sad results of the work of such “personnel” too.

    Discussing decisions made (or not made) by Rozhdestvensky is like looking for logic and common sense in the actions of a schizophrenic running with an ax through the streets. You can, according to the author’s example, draw some kind of pseudoscientific graphs and trajectories, look for a correlation from the direction of the wind and the color of the fences .. That's just no sense. This patient himself can not remember and explain most of his actions .. It is useless to invent convincing explanations for wild decisions and absurd maneuvers of ZPR.

    One cannot but admit that most of the blame for the Tsushima disaster lies with Rozhdestvensky personally. Any of the younger flagships would have fought an order of magnitude better. Witgeft is an example of this.
    1. +3
      17 May 2019 01: 23
      I seriously doubt Rozhestvensky’s stupidity in the reviews of the officer who served with him, he is competent, but almost everyone describes his character as unbearable. A sort of symbiosis of a competent but selfish boss not beloved by his subordinates (which cannot but affect the morale of his subordinates for such a long transition) We will pay tribute to Rozhdestvensky, he took the blame for the defeat.
      1. +1
        17 May 2019 23: 40
        Quote: Nehist
        I seriously doubt Rozhestvensky’s stupidity in the reviews of the officer who served with him, he is competent, but almost everyone describes his character as unbearable.

        Let me ask you, what kind of co-workers made up such a forest characterization for Christmas? Did you subtract this from Semenov’s sneaky little books? And his modern followers? Well, these are obvious opportunists .. They will paint the cannibal Bokassu into an angel. I have already given real reviews of squadron officers about my commander, Rozhdestvensky. That's just terrible! None of the admirals have ever received such contempt and anti-rating ..

        Why did you decide that Rozhdestvensky is actually something like an admiral !? Much of his career has been an errand artillery consultant. The peak of his naval career - the commander of the "Vladimir Monomakh", 1894, a campaign to the Far East under the command of Makarov (!). The peak of his secular career - showed discretion in front of the emperor during an accident in 1900. (yes, ZPR could yell loudly). AND EVERYTHING! Cuddled and instantly promoted to admiral. (after which he gladly wiped his feet on Makarov, his former boss). This copy, under the nickname ZPR, has never commanded even two pots in the Marquis puddle! Even formally, his admiral's experience is complete zero!

        But this is nonsense, our king immediately appoints this hero to command the main naval headquarters (GMS), and then without a second's hesitation he sends the Japanese fleet at the head of a huge squadron.

        It sounds like nonsense, but such was the reality of the Russian Empire in 1904.
      2. 0
        21 May 2019 23: 21
        but almost everyone describes his character as unbearable. A sort of symbiosis of a competent but selfish boss not loved by subordinates (which cannot but affect the morale of subordinates for such a long transition)

        But only those who served next to Rozhdestvensky did not mention anything of the kind. Did not make out?

        I already told you: to Vietnam, Rozhdestvensky was psychologically worn out, psychologically ill. In fact, in this state it would be better not to go into battle - but there was no choice, they did not send a replacement.
        Fölkersam simply died - unable to withstand the stress (a blow is a usual consequence of "constantly on the nerves")

        (By the way, Wittgeft in the Yellow Sea was also sick. He therefore didn’t go into the wheelhouse, and even had no strength to stand: he was sitting in an armchair)
    2. 0
      17 May 2019 02: 25
      Quote: Saxahorse
      Any of the younger flagships would have fought an order of magnitude better. Witgeft is an example of this.

      The battleships of the 1 Pacific Squadron, if they had not returned to Port Arthur after the battle at Cape Shantung, would have suffered the fate of the battleships of the 2 Pacific Squadron in the Tsushima Strait a few days later.
      1. +2
        17 May 2019 06: 40
        Dear Valentine !!! After the battle in the Yellow Sea, if the 1st TOE complied with Vitgeft’s order, it would calmly go to Vladivostok !!! With all due respect to you ... Japanese sources say this !!! After that, after the death of two EDBs, he did not dare to engage in battle and agreed to a breakthrough of 1 TOE! Alas, he was lucky. According to the reports of the Japanese themselves (Description of military operations at sea in the years 37-38. Meiji) In the 6th section, a total of 15 volumes describe all damage to the ships
        1. +3
          17 May 2019 15: 15
          Hello, Alexander !
          Japanese sources confirm that if Witgeft’s connection continued south, there would be no battle in 1 on August 1904 in the Korean Strait.
          In the Tsushima Strait, the Port Arthurians would be waiting for Togo with Kamimura in the same composition as they met Rozhdestvensky.
          As for the damage to Japanese ships, they can not be compared with the damage sustained by our battleships, especially the flagships and the Poltava.
          I would like to share your optimism about the likelihood of a breakthrough of the 1-th Pacific Squadron in Vladivostok, alas, historical facts do not give reason for this.
          1. +1
            18 May 2019 00: 02
            Quote: Comrade
            In the Tsushima Strait, the Port Arthurians would be waiting for Togo with Kamimura in the same composition as they met Rozhdestvensky.

            What? Would you just stand there and wait? Isn’t that the speed of Togo’s squadron is not higher than Witgeft’s squadron? Maybe they didn’t wait and then crawled? Moreover, Mikasa is already without live cannons, while the rest are simply without shells. They shot very quickly .. They say three times faster than Russian.

            And yes, we have Kamimura! It is certainly not bad, but even three old Russian cruisers could not overwhelm. I would have watched how he, almost alone, stops the angry battleships of Vitgeft with his eight-inch guns. This clearly deserves a separate book, in terms of the intensity of emotions it is no weaker than the Tsushima Novikov-Surf.
            1. +3
              18 May 2019 02: 00
              Quote: Saxahorse
              What? Would you just stand there and wait?

              Togo and Kamimura were waiting for Rozhdestvensky at the islets of Namhenghedo, and they would have waited for Vitgeft at the island of Ross.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Isn’t that the speed of Togo’s squadron is not higher than Witgeft’s squadron?

              What is "Witgeft squadron speed", this is how in nodes and in which composition?
              Quote: Saxahorse
              Moreover, Mikasa is already without live cannons, while the rest are simply without shells.

              My friend, as follows from the report of the English naval attache Packinham from the 27 of September 1904, there were eighty shells for every 12 ’gun of the Japanese battleship, so there can be no talk of the truth of the conventional wisdom that the Japanese battleships, in fact, having a supernumerary ammunition, they almost used up the ammunition of the main caliber.
              Of the available 1 280 12 ″ shells, they fired 603, and of the available 80 10 ″ shells 33 more. 677 12 ″ and 47 10 ″ shells remained on the ships, including the Mikasa 148, the Asahi 170, and the Shikishima with Fuji in the total amount of 359. Consequently, the maximum possible balance of 12 ″ shells per gun was on Mikasa 37, on Asahi 42 and on Shikishima with Fuji 44 shells; the balance of 10 ″ shells at Kassuga amounted to 47 shells.

              In total, by the end of the battle, four Japanese armadillos and one armored cruiser had eleven serviceable main-caliber guns and one operational 10 ″. In this case, theoretically, the ships of the 1-th combat detachment from serviceable guns could release 74 + 84 + 308 = 466 12 ″ and 47 10 ″ shells.

              Now, as far as possible, we will bring the figure closer to reality. As you know, in 17: 25 on the battleship “Asahi” there was a rupture of both barrels of the 12 ″ guns of the stern barbet mount, which managed to fire 107 shells, therefore, the bow fired 43. The balance for the bow barb of 117 shells, and taking this amendment into account, was in good working order. 499 12 ″ and 47 10 ″ shells.
              How many of them, hypothetically, could have hit, can be calculated, taking into account that the Japanese on July 28, 1904 demonstrated the accuracy of shooting from 12 "and 10" guns of 9,45% and 12,1%, respectively.
              Something about ten "suitcases" for each of the five battleships or under fifty "suitcases" for one head "Retvizan".
              Using the same method, you can estimate how many more 8 "shells, theoretically, could have hit the Port Arthurian battleships from six" Asamoids "(and in our mind we have two more" Garibaldians "with their six 8" guns).
              Speaking about the effectiveness of 8 "shells, let us recall that on May 15, 1905, the hull of the coastal defense battleship" Admiral Ushakov "was hit of three 8''. The consequences are known.

              Quote: Saxahorse
              They shot it very quickly .. They say three times faster than the Russians.

              Four Japanese battleships fired 603 the main caliber shell, four Russian battleships fired 344 projectile main caliber. The difference is not even twice.
              Quote: Saxahorse
              I would have watched him almost alone, stopping the angry battleships of Wittgeft with his eight-inches

              This is how one of them looked, "Peresvet".
              1. 0
                18 May 2019 23: 11
                Quote: Comrade
                Man, as follows from the report of the English naval attache of Pekingham

                Believing Pekimhem's reports has long been a bad form :) Moreover, the meme has long been known that Togo was about to withdraw from the battle due to a report about the lack of shells from other ships of the squadron. Again, you remarkably counted the 12 "shells remaining on Mikasa, but for some reason you didn't say that Mikasa had no operational guns left ..

                Well, purely in speed .. Witgeft had a brake Sevastopol and Togo had the same brake Fuji. He did not have a chance to overtake Vitgeft; he would rather be behind.
                1. 0
                  19 May 2019 01: 42
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Believing Pakimham's reports has long been a bad manners :)

                  So disprove them with Japanese documents on hand.
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Especially since the meme has long been known that Togo was about to leave the battle due to a report on the shortage of shells and from other ships of the squadron

                  Give a Japanese documentary source confirming your words.
                  There is a document - I believe your words, there is no document - so you retell the fake.
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Again, you remarkably counted the 12 "shells remaining on Mikasa, but for some reason you did not say that there were no serviceable guns left on Mikasa.

                  Can you counter something to Japanese officialdom?

                  If not, then I do not believe you, but the Japanese. In the battle on July 28, 1904 "Mikasa" lost only one gun. The neighboring one was serviceable, but due to damage to the barbet installation, it could not fire.
                  Quote: Saxahorse
                  Well, purely in speed .. Witgeft had a brake Sevastopol and Togo had the same brake Fuji.

                  Read serious sources, not "murzilki".
                  "Fuji", even being loaded with coal to the eyeballs, kept fifteen knots without any problems, "Sevastopol" could do that too?
                  1. 0
                    21 May 2019 22: 28
                    Quote: Comrade
                    Read serious sources, not "murzilki".
                    "Fuji", even being loaded with coal to the eyeballs, kept fifteen knots without any problems, "Sevastopol" could do that too?

                    Sevastopol apparently also could. Judging by the time that Togo spent chasing at Wittgeft. The advantage was a maximum in the half-node, and not the fact that the same Fuji could keep that speed all the time.

                    Did you notice that you did not give the final damage to Mikasa, but a description of one hit in one tower? And by the way, they did not name the source either. Can we read the same "murzilka"?
        2. +2
          17 May 2019 15: 39
          Quote: Nehist
          After the battle in the Yellow Sea, if 1TOE fulfilled the order of Vitgeft, she calmly went to Vladivostok !!!

          I would not have reached just the coal reserves :)))) Not to mention that the second day of the battle with the combined forces of Kamimura and Togo, our EDB would not have survived
          1. +1
            19 May 2019 01: 40
            Yes, of course, the Japanese received heavy damage to the battleships "Mikasa" and "Asahi", the armored cruisers "Kasuga", "Nissin" and "Yakumo" which required dock repairs. That is, in fact, there was nothing to fight the next day.
        3. 0
          21 May 2019 23: 25
          After the battle in the Yellow Sea, if 1TOE fulfilled the order of Vitgeft, she calmly went to Vladivostok !!!

          No
          Japanese sources say this !!!

          No. That maximum decided to interrupt the battle and move into the strait, and there again meet the Russians.
          The result would be understandable.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. +1
      18 May 2019 19: 32
      Tsushima - pain of sea defeat
      Although quite a few years have passed
      And bitterness lesson - sailor battle
      And cowardice with mediocrity bouquet

      But still there is a bright place there
      It was possible to avoid defeat
      Yes, only the admiral was out of place there
      His deeds are hard to justify

      As they say, time has run away
      Yes, the mischief misfortune is still alive
      And cowardice of the rulers did not dare
      Tsushima-given is still alive
  10. +2
    17 May 2019 02: 49
    Izumi discovered the Russian squadron at 06.18 in Russian time, and at about the same time it was discovered by itself. At the same time, the Japanese cruiser was poorly observed on our ships, periodically losing sight, and Z.P. Rozhdestvensky believed that the Japanese cruiser did not come closer to our ships than 6 miles. The Japanese themselves believed that they were kept in 4-5 miles.

    The distance between ours (blue line) and Japanese (red line), as can be seen in the diagram, fluctuated. This is probably the reason for the discrepancy in numbers.
  11. 0
    17 May 2019 03: 12
    Thank! Naval history is given to you much better than the rest. Good luck.
  12. 0
    17 May 2019 20: 57
    ... he himself will not say what to guess
    There were options, this does not take away ...
  13. +2
    18 May 2019 05: 54
    How lovely! In the middle of spring, our friend from Chelyabinsk suddenly fell into a romantic mood and again, tenderly clinging to his fantasies! The tale of a wise, kind and noble admiral is so cool! Unfortunately, you have to screw it to the ground and recall what he himself knows, but prefers to remain silent.


    1. Sci-fi tales about the difficulty of destroying a scout - dusting brains in order not to answer the question: why the scout was not driven out of sight of the battleships.

    2.About "do not bother the Japanese to wire", as I understand it, nothing happened to be invented.

    1. +2
      19 May 2019 13: 04
      Good morning, Andrey! hi

      Well, about "wire", you shouldn't. Everything can be explained very simply: Zinovy ​​Petrovich was a well-mannered person and did not interfere with other people's conversations without an invitation. wink We, with our "homey" upbringing, do not understand this. laughing