TV "Panther": Wehrmacht "thirty-four"?

324
Collision with the latest Soviet tanks forced the Germans to radically revise their tank building programs. As you know, the largest tank that the Wehrmacht had at the beginning of World War II was the T-IV modification F (not to be confused with the F2!) weighing only 22,3 tons, and the Germans sincerely believed that a combat vehicle of this weight would be quite enough. The T-III and T-IV fit perfectly into the concept of blitzkrieg, as understood by the German generals, and the latter did not look for more. Of course, progress did not stand still, and the German designers of Daimler-Benz (Daimler-Benz), Krupp (Krupp) and MAN (MAN) worked on a new medium tank project, but its weight should not exceed 20 tons.


"Panther" ausf D




In principle, the military did not mind getting a heavier tank to break through enemy defenses, but they did not feel much need for it. The latter was expressed both in the absence of a somewhat intelligible technical task, and in the fact that no one seriously demanded results from manufacturers. E. Aders, at that time one of the leading German designers of Henschel tank technology, had been working on a 30-ton “breakthrough tank” since 1937, but in 1941 this tank was infinitely far from completion. In fact, there were only two prototypes that did not even have their own turret, although one of them was nevertheless hoisted with a T-IV turret. Booking "heavy tank" did not exceed 50 mm.

The T-34 and KV, for all their shortcomings, were an extremely unpleasant surprise for the German armed forces. It was quite obvious that excellent visibility and ergonomics still cannot fully compensate for the relatively weak armor and armament of the "triples" and "fours". As a result, work on the "20-ton" and "30-ton" tanks was curtailed, and new tasks were set on the agenda of German designers - in the shortest possible time, Henschel and Porsche firms (Porsche) they were supposed to create a heavy tank weighing 45 tons, and Daimler-Benz and MAN received an order for a medium tank weighing 35 tons. The heavy tank later became the famous Tiger, but history we will look at its creation some other time. The theme of the material offered to your attention is a medium tank, the design task of which was given the code name “Panther”.

Is it correct to compare the Panther with the T-34?


The fact is that the combat vehicle created according to the “Panther project”, according to the initial idea of ​​​​the Wehrmacht leadership, was supposed to solve the same tasks that were assigned to the “thirty-four” in the Red Army. In other words, before meeting with the T-34, the German generals armed their tank divisions with T-III and T-IV and were quite satisfied with them. The German strategy was blitzkrieg, which provided for the rapid destruction of the enemy army by dissecting it and surrounding large military masses, followed by forcing the latter to surrender. To do this, the German army needed powerful mobile troops capable of waging a mobile war, and deep operations behind enemy lines. The basis of these troops were tank divisions, and until the very invasion of the USSR, their tanks, "triples" and "fours", quite effectively solved the entire range of tasks facing them.

But the appearance of a tank with a 76,2-mm cannon and armor that protected well from the standard 37-mm anti-tank "mallet", which and 50-mm artillery systems pierced from the second to the third, made the capabilities of the T-III and T-IV insufficient. The Germans had the opportunity to get acquainted with the T-34 both on the battlefields and in a non-combat situation, since a considerable number of “thirty-fours” got to them either completely undamaged or with minimal damage. Thus, the Germans were able to perfectly study the design of the T-34, to see both the strengths and weaknesses of this tank of ours. And, not surprisingly, they wanted to get a tank that would organically combine the advantages of Soviet and German medium armored vehicles, while not having their shortcomings. More specifically, they wanted a medium tank with a powerful 75 mm gun, armor equal to that of the T-34 (i.e. anti-ballistic by 1941 standards), as well as a relatively spacious and ergonomic interior for five crew members. And with a good review, of course.

Artillery


Dear M.B. Baryatinsky, in his monograph “Panther, the steel cat of the Panzerwaffe,” points to a 75-mm artillery system ordered by the Wehrmacht from Rheinmetall, capable of penetrating 140 mm of armor at a distance of a kilometer, and it was precisely such a weapon that was eventually installed on “ Panther."


KwK 42 along with a gun Spark


In 1941, things with 75-mm anti-tank guns in Germany were as follows: in 1938-39. Rheinmetall and Krupp received technical specifications and an order to create a promising 75-mm artillery system. And they were not too in a hurry with their creation, since in 1940 the same Rheinmetall had only a non-firing prototype gun ready, which, by the way, was recognized as the best. However, it turned into a full-fledged artillery system only in 1942 - we are talking, of course, about the wonderful German Pak 40, but for all its merits, of course, it could not penetrate 140-mm armor at a distance of 1000 m. Even with a sub-caliber projectile. And so, in July 1941, the Wehrmacht generals came to the conclusion that even this promising, but not yet created, gun was no longer good enough for the latest medium tank. As a result, the tank analogue of the towed Pak 40 - KwK 40 with a barrel length of 43 and 48 calibers, was received by German self-propelled guns and T-IVs, and for the Panther, an enchanting KwK 42 artillery system was made.



KwK 40 L48 (that is, with a barrel length of 48 calibers) gave a 6,8 kg projectile an initial velocity of 790 m / s, and this was much, much more than the usual universal "three-inch": for example, the domestic F-34, which was armed with T -34, reported 6,3 kg. projectile only 655 m / s. But the long-barreled KwK 42 L70 sent a 6,8 kg projectile flying at a speed of 925 m / s! As a result, according to the tabular values, the KwK 40 at a distance of a kilometer pierced 85 mm with a caliber armor-piercing and 95 mm with a sub-caliber projectile, while the KwK 42 - 111 and 149 mm, respectively! Judging by the generally accepted data, the KwK 42 surpassed even the 88-mm cannon of the Tiger tank in terms of armor penetration at a distance of about 2 km, where the capabilities of their shells were approximately equalized (the Tiger caliber projectile pierced a little less, and the sabot - a little more than 75-mm "Panthers"), in other sources you can find the figure 2 m.

The author has already written that for a real battle, it is not so much the tabular armor penetration that matters, but the range of a direct shot. And, although the author does not have exact data on the KwK 42, it is quite obvious that in this parameter it surpassed both the KwK 40 and domestic 76,2-mm artillery systems.

Reservation


In the last quarter of a century, if not more, the armor scheme of the T-34 has come under intense criticism. In the USSR, rational angles of inclination of armored plates were considered an absolute boon and advantage of the "thirty-four", but then many claims were discovered. Among which, for example, there were allegations that such a slope of the armor, of course, can provide a ricochet of enemy ammunition, but only if the caliber of this ammunition is not more than the thickness of the armor plate. From this point of view, the rational angles of the 40-45 mm T-34 mod. 1940 lost its meaning already in the confrontation with 50 mm guns, not to mention 75 mm.

Maybe, of course, it is so, but the opinion of the Germans on this issue is interesting. Having the opportunity to see for themselves the advantages and disadvantages of the T-34 armor protection and knowing full well that the new Soviet tanks are armed with a 76,2 mm cannon, they determined sufficient protection for their promising tank from 40 mm armor plates with rational angles of inclination.

Subsequently, during the creation of the tank, the armor was strengthened, but how? Consider booking "Panther" in comparison with the T-34 arr. 1940


Panthers reservation scheme




As you can see, the Panther's forehead is much better protected. The frontal part (upper) is 85 mm thick and located at an angle of 55 degrees. It was a practically indestructible defense against Soviet artillery of 76,2 mm caliber and below at any reasonable distance. The same can be said about the lower armored piece, which had the same angle of inclination, but a smaller thickness - 65 mm. The T-34 has the same angles of the upper and lower parts - 60 and 53 degrees, but their thickness is only 45 mm. The forehead of the tower of the Panther is 100 mm, and the mask of the gun is even 110 mm, while the T-34 has only 40-45 mm.

Another advantage of the German tank is the bottom armor. If for the T-34 it was 16 mm in the nose and 13 mm further, then for the Panther it was 30 and 17 mm, respectively. Obviously, this somewhat improved mine protection, although it is difficult to say how much.

At the same time, oddly enough, the sides and stern of the Panther are worse protected than those of the T-34. If you look at the diagram from top to bottom, we see that the thickness of the side of the German tank turret is 45 mm, the inclined hull plate is 40 mm and the vertical hull plate is 40 mm, while the T-34 has the corresponding thicknesses of 45, 40 and 45 mm. It seems that the superiority is quite insignificant, but the angles of inclination of the Panther's armor are less rational - 25 degrees. for armor plates of the tower and 30 deg. for the body, while the T-34 has 30 and 40 degrees. respectively. In addition, in the T-34 of a later release (the same age as the Panther), the inclined armor plates of the hull side received reinforcement up to 45 mm. As for the stern of the brainchild of the "gloomy Aryan genius", there the Panther was protected by 40 mm armor at an angle of 30 degrees, and the T-34 - by 40 mm armor at an angle of 42-48 degrees.

Engine, transmission, chassis


At the prototype stage of the future Panther, 2 approaches collided - Daimler-Benz "adopted" the Soviet scheme, according to which both the engine and transmission were located in the stern of the tank, while the rear wheels were driving. At the same time, MAN specialists proposed a traditional German layout: the engine was in the stern, and the gearbox, etc., was in the nose, while the front wheels were the leading ones.

TV "Panther": Wehrmacht "thirty-four"?


The battle of opinions led to the creation of the so-called “Panther Commission”, which concluded that the traditional German scheme, although much more complex, is still better.

As for the engine, the “Daimler men” were going to install a diesel of their own design on a tank, but the gasoline engine was much more acceptable for Germany. First of all, for the reason that diesel fuel for the most part was absorbed by submarines kriegsmarine, and therefore was in a fair deficit. As a result, the Panther received a 700-strong Maybach.

In general, the management of the Panther after the eradication of inevitable childhood diseases was quite convenient and comfortable for the driver. But it cannot be said that the T-34 mod. 1943 there were some significant problems with this.

For all the good you need to pay


So, the German designers have done a tremendous work on the bugs and created a real masterpiece, combining the advantages of the German and Soviet tank design schools.

At a direct shot distance, the Panther hit the T-34 in any projection, while its forehead protection could hardly be penetrated by any Soviet 76,2-mm gun, and it was they that formed the basis of the Red Army anti-tank guns. At the same time, the sides and rear of the Panther were defended a little worse than the T-34. The Germans managed to combine rational armor angles with a spacious fighting compartment, comfortable for five crew members: of course, excellent German optics were also available. Not that the T-XNUMX was categorically inferior to the Panther here, our sights were very good, but the German ones were still better.

That's just the weight of this miracle of engineering reached 44,8 tons, as a result of which the Panther can no longer be spoken of as a medium tank, which, in essence, is the key drawback of the Panther project. In an effort to create a perfect medium tank, the German designers actually turned it into a heavy one. Which, in fact, was the cause of a number of shortcomings of this "Panzerwaffe cat".

The first of them is a large height, reaching 2 mm.



The fact is that under the German scheme, the torsion bars and the propeller shaft were placed between the bottom of the tank and the floor of the fighting compartment, which was not required for the T-34, in which both the engine and transmission were located in the stern. In other words, the Germans had to sort of raise the fighting compartment and supplies, including fuel and ammunition, above the bottom of the tank in order to make room for the torsion bar and shaft there, and this, of course, made the German tank higher. On the one hand, it seems to be not such a big problem, this height of the tank. But this is if we forget that the range of a direct shot of any gun is the greater, the higher its target.


Frontal projections "Panther" and T-34


The second drawback is the "chess" chassis, which has become a real curse for German tankers.



The Germans came up with it in order to provide a heavy tank with a good ride, and they achieved this. But such a chassis, which consisted of many rollers, was extremely heavy, much heavier than usual, and besides, extremely inconvenient to use, because in order to get to the rear rows of rollers, it was necessary to remove the front ones. To be more precise, in order to remove only one inner row roller, it was necessary to dismantle from a third to a half of the outer row rollers. And, of course, the example that wanders from one publication to another is canonical: about how the mud and snow that clogged during the movement of the Panther between the skating rinks froze at night to such an extent that they blocked the rotation of the rinks, causing the tank to lose the ability to move.

It must be said that Soviet and American tanks of comparable weight - the IS-2 (46 tons) and the M26 "Pershing" were deprived of such an innovation and, nevertheless, coped with their tasks quite well. Yes, the movement of the Panther was certainly smoother than those of these tanks, but what advantages could this give in battle? Now, if the German designers managed to ensure such smoothness at which it would be possible to conduct aimed fire on the move - then yes, in this case, of course, one could say that "the game is worth the candle." However, nothing of the kind happened - like the tanks of the anti-Hitler coalition, the Panther could shoot accurately (that is, not only shoot, but also hit) only from a place. In general, the smoothness of the German tanks, both the Panther and the Tiger, was bought at an excessively high price - it was clearly not worth it. And the post-war experience of tank building confirmed this with all evidence - despite the fact that the chassis of German tanks were very well studied, the "chess" scheme did not become further widespread.

The third drawback of the tank was the low maintainability of the transmission in the field. As mentioned above, the Germans deliberately went to complicate the design in favor of quality, and the Panther's transmission was good - while it worked. But as soon as she failed, due to combat damage, or due to internal breakdowns, the tank needed factory repairs. Trying to fix the Panther in the field was possible... but extremely difficult.

But, of course, the most important drawback of the Panther was that in the course of designing it turned from a medium to a heavy tank. “Why is this drawback so critical?” the reader may ask: “Modern main battle tanks have a mass of over 40 and 50 tons, but the same domestic T-90 weighs 46,5 tons and feels great at the same time!”.

That's true, but the problem is that today's level of technology and economies is slightly different from what existed during the Second World War. And the first answer to the question why a heavy tank of the period of the Great Patriotic War cannot become the main one is the limited technical resource of it.

On the one hand, it seems to be somehow unfair to reproach the Panther for a capricious transmission, because in principle it was quite good: some Panthers, according to German tankers, managed to overcome up to 1 km on their own, without requiring major repairs . But it was still an exception, which only confirmed the rule that both the engine and transmission of the tank suffered from numerous "childhood diseases", which took the Germans about a year to eliminate. And the combination of a difficult-to-repair design with its well-known capriciousness obviously led to the fact that the Panther, in fact, turned out to be not a very suitable tank for maneuver warfare, for deep tank raids.

The second fundamental drawback of a heavy tank, which they are trying to force to play in an uncharacteristic “weight category”, is that a heavy tank, being much larger, more complex and more expensive than a medium one, a priori in those years could not be produced in the quantities necessary to saturate tank divisions with them. . This is true for absolutely all countries, including, of course, Germany.

I must say that the "Panther" was conceived precisely as the main battle tank, which was supposed to replace the T-III and T-IV in the tank units of the Wehrmacht. But the complexity and high cost led to the fact that, despite the fact that as many as 4 companies (MAN, Daimler-Benz, MNH and Henschel) were engaged in the production of Panthers, it was impossible to provide a sufficient number of them. And Heinz Guderian, who at that time served as the chief inspector of the Wehrmacht tank forces, after consultations with the Minister of Armaments A. Speer, was forced to moderate his appetites: only one battalion of each tank regiment was to be equipped with Panthers. Of course, these plans have been adjusted.

In total, from February 1943 to February 1945, inclusive, the Germans, according to Muller-Gillebrand, produced 5 Panthers, not counting various equipment based on it. I must say that these data are not absolutely accurate, but nevertheless. But the T-IV for the same period produced 629 units. "triples", the release of which was curtailed - 7 units. Thus, in the indicated period, a total of 471 Panthers and three-rubles with fours were produced, which in theory it was supposed to replace, and it turns out that the Panthers were produced only a little more than 714% of the total output of these three cars since the start of Panther production.

Over the same period, the total release of the T-34-76 and T-34-85 was 31 804 machines.

Thus, the Panthers, on the one hand, could not become a full-fledged medium tank in any way - it was simply impossible to produce them in the quantities required for this. But as a heavy tank, they also had significant drawbacks.

First, it is, of course, booking. In 1942-43. the Germans launched the serial construction of a heavy tank with anti-shell armor - we are talking, of course, about the "Tiger", which, thanks to 80-100 mm armor protecting the forehead and sides of the tank, was less vulnerable to anti-tank and field artillery shells. The "Tiger" could very successfully push through the enemy's defenses: it could be stopped, disabled by breaking, say, a caterpillar, but it was extremely difficult to inflict really heavy damage on it. That is why, according to some reports, on the Kursk Bulge, each "Tiger" was knocked out 1,9 times on average - but after that, having received field repairs, it returned to service.

But the Panther could not boast of such a thing - the protection of its sides met the requirements of a medium tank, in 1943 it, of course, could not be considered anti-shell. And during the breakthrough of the Soviet defense, which was being built with a “focal” anti-tank defense, capable of conducting crossfire on advancing tanks from several positions, it could not, of course, turn to all of them with its almost invulnerable frontal projection. In other words, ceteris paribus, the Panthers, when breaking through the enemy defenses, would have suffered significantly greater losses than the Tigers.

Secondly, this is the caliber of the gun - although the 75-mm KwK 42 was quite enough for anti-tank battles, it is no longer enough to destroy the entire range of targets that a heavy tank should fight. Yes, and about the armor penetration of the Germans, it seems, vague doubts tormented.

That is why, at the beginning of 1943, as a further direction for the development of the Panthers, they saw bringing the thickness of the side armor to 60 mm and installing an even more powerful 88-mm KwK43 L / 71 gun than on the Tiger (Panther II project).

In general, the following can be said about the Panther - German military design thought produced a very strange tank. Too large and complex to become the main combat vehicle of tank divisions, too capricious for "deep operations", not armored enough to break into enemy defenses, while it was able to effectively destroy any armored vehicles of the USSR and allies until the very end of the war.

And here, according to the author of this article, lies the secret of the effectiveness of the Panthers. If we take an analysis of the use of these tanks, made by our specialists during the war years, we will see that:

“The tactics of using Panther tanks has the following features:

a) tanks are used in combat mainly along roads or in the area of ​​roads;

b) Panther tanks are not used separately, but as a rule they are escorted by groups of medium tanks T-III and T-IV;

c) Panther tanks open fire from long distances, using their advantage in artillery armament, trying to prevent our tanks from approaching;

d) during the attack, the “panthers” move in one direction, without changing course, trying to use their advantage in frontal defense;

e) during the defense, Panther tanks act from ambushes;

f) when the "Panthers" depart, they are reversing to the nearest cover in reverse, trying not to substitute the sides under artillery fire. "


In other words, the Germans, in fact, in the offensive used the "Panthers" not as tanks, but as self-propelled artillery installations, the actions of which were provided by the usual "triples" and "fours". And in defense, the Panthers were an excellent anti-tank self-propelled guns: realizing the direction of the main attack, the Germans could always prepare and meet ours at pre-prepared positions, “head on”, shooting it from afar, preventing it from entering for an attack from the flank.

In other words, the Panthers, for a number of the above reasons, did not meet the requirements of modern maneuver warfare at that time, the strategy and tactics of deep operations. But at the moment when the Wehrmacht began to receive them in somewhat large quantities, there was no longer any talk of any deep operations - after the Kursk Bulge, where the Panthers made their debut, the Wehrmacht finally and irrevocably lost the strategic initiative and could only defend itself, only snarling counterattacks. In Germany, the issue of mobile defense was on the agenda, and for her, the Panther turned out to be almost an ideal tank. Expensive and complex, but still not as much as the Tiger, which means it was produced in noticeably large quantities, with noticeably better mobility than the Tiger, with an excellently protected frontal projection, with excellent armor penetration of the 75-mm gun, According to its performance characteristics, the Panther was remarkably suitable for the role of an anti-tank self-propelled gun - a mobile reserve for the defending troops.

In other words, the Panther was almost the perfect tank ... for an army losing the war.

To be continued ...
324 comments
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  1. +19
    3 July 2019 18: 06
    The Panther is not a thirty-four of the Wehrmacht. Workhorse Panzerwaffe Pz-4.
    1. +2
      3 July 2019 18: 15
      TV "Panther": Wehrmacht "thirty-four"?
      At the end of the war, she was also the "workhorse of the Armored Forces of the Red Army" ...

      1. +2
        3 July 2019 18: 19
        And Panzerfir, ironically, became Tsahal's workhorse.
        1. +2
          3 July 2019 18: 24
          Quote: AU Ivanov.
          And Panzerfir, ironically, became Tsahal's workhorse.

          Well, the IDF, it actually wasn’t yet, it’s not matured, it’s underdeveloped ...
          Jews, also "Messer" fb109 used, by the way, without appreciating him, and calling him a "stubborn mule" ...
          1. +3
            3 July 2019 19: 02
            not fb 109, but s 199. not Messer at all.
          2. +5
            4 July 2019 06: 39
            Quote: Separ DNR
            "Messer" fb109 was used, by the way, without appreciating it, and calling it a "stubborn mule" ...

            Well, that's the "Messer" was called Bf-109. And the Czechs supplied the S-199 to Israel, a variation of the 109th with the YuMO-211 engine, which was not suitable for this aircraft in many respects.
            Quote: Separ DNR
            TV "Panther": Wehrmacht "thirty-four"?
            At the end of the war, she is also the "workhorse of the Armored Troops of the Red Army" ..

            Well, given that the Red Army Panther was less than 2 dozen, then this is really a workhorse ...
      2. +13
        3 July 2019 18: 33
        Quote: Separ DNR
        At the end of the war, she is also the "workhorse of the Armored Troops of the Red Army"

        Well, it’s said too much too much, trim the sturgeon to episodic use (pieces up to 20) at the end of the war
      3. +13
        3 July 2019 18: 59
        And the captured T-34s did a nice job for the Germans .. After some changes in the design ..
        1. +9
          3 July 2019 19: 02
          Quote: Nathanael
          And the captured T-34s did a nice job for the Germans .. After some changes in the design ..

          Everything was ... SU -76 And

      4. Alf
        +2
        3 July 2019 20: 08
        Quote: Separ DNR
        At the end of the war, she was also the "workhorse of the Armored Forces of the Red Army" ...

        As many as 111 pieces.
        1. 0
          3 July 2019 20: 18
          Quote: Alf
          As many as 111 pieces.

          Even so. (111pcs) Isn't this a massive application, with the acquisition of experience?
          1. Alf
            +3
            3 July 2019 20: 21
            Quote: Separ DNR
            Quote: Alf
            As many as 111 pieces.

            Even so. (111pcs) Isn't this a massive application, with the acquisition of experience?

            I do not argue, this is already something. But that's how much the repairmen had a fuck with the Panthers ...
            1. 0
              3 July 2019 20: 24
              Quote: Alf
              Quote: Separ DNR
              Quote: Alf
              As many as 111 pieces.

              Even so. (111pcs) Isn't this a massive application, with the acquisition of experience?

              I do not argue, this is already something. But that's how much the repairmen had a fuck with the Panthers ...

              Like the post-war T-44 ... Each product must ripen ... By the time.
              1. Alf
                +3
                3 July 2019 20: 34
                Quote: Separ DNR
                Like the post-war T-44 ...

                But for the T-44, even though the factory produced spare parts, where to get them for a captured tank, which is not so common?
                1. +2
                  3 July 2019 20: 37
                  Quote: Alf
                  But for the T-44, even though the factory produced spare parts, where to get them for a captured tank, which is not so common?

                  His T-V, for a long time, was not going to be exploited in the troops, in fact ...
                  1. Alf
                    +3
                    3 July 2019 21: 21
                    Quote: Separ DNR
                    Quote: Alf
                    But for the T-44, even though the factory produced spare parts, where to get them for a captured tank, which is not so common?

                    His T-V, for a long time, was not going to be exploited in the troops, in fact ...

                    But, at least, they were collected in separate companies of anti-tankers.
                2. +4
                  3 July 2019 23: 10
                  Remove from another captured tank. Those. knock out another captured tank with one captured tank and provide yourself with spare parts and ammunition. And so on until meeting with the allies on the Elbe. smile
              2. -2
                3 July 2019 21: 38
                The T-44 was the most reliable tank of the USSR, created and produced during the war. The UKN program (elimination of design flaws) was designed for reliable and long-term operation in peacetime.
                1. -1
                  3 July 2019 21: 42
                  Quote: Potter
                  The T-44 was the most reliable tank of the USSR, created and produced during the war. The UKN program (elimination of design flaws) was designed for reliable and long-term operation in peacetime.

                  You are mistaken ...

                  Just the blatant insecurity of the T-44, became the factor that prompted the development (bringing the T-44 to the level of T-54) ...
                  1. Alf
                    +10
                    3 July 2019 22: 16
                    Quote: Separ DNR
                    Just the blatant insecurity of the T-44, became the factor that prompted the development (

                    The T-54 began to be developed when the tankers realized that everything had been squeezed out of the 85 mm caliber and that it was necessary to switch to 100 mm.
                    1. Alf
                      +6
                      3 July 2019 22: 22
                      Is there anything to argue with minus?
                      1. +7
                        3 July 2019 23: 12
                        Spit on the minus, colleague, I put you a plus. smile
                      2. +2
                        4 July 2019 02: 22
                        I am for your nobility too ....
                      3. 0
                        4 July 2019 10: 54
                        Good afternoon, Gennady hi ... In general, I am "for peace and friendship among peoples" and unification against the people, of which, unfortunately, there are also enough here. What to do, not all parents had money for an abortion. wink
                      4. Alf
                        0
                        4 July 2019 19: 36
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        Spit on the minus, colleague, I put you a plus. smile

                        Thank you! hi
    2. 0
      3 July 2019 19: 05
      The author repeated the bike roaming the Internet that they did not put a diesel engine on the Panther, because the Kriegsmarine did not have enough diesel fuel. This is utter nonsense! A tank diesel engine, which is much more efficient than a gasoline engine (efficiency, power reserve, unpretentiousness in operation, etc.) is, oddly enough, an area of ​​​​high technology that we have mastered (thanks to the Americans), but the Germans have not. The fact is that a diesel engine is easy to operate, but it is very difficult to produce. This primarily concerns the fuel equipment. Our technologists, to the surprise of American engineers, solved this problem in an original way, they put girls whose fingers were more sensitive than the fingers of a neurosurgeon to assemble the fuel apparatus! As for fuel, what do you think is more expensive to produce gasoline or diesel fuel? Of course, gasoline! I will say even more, the T-34 engine worked perfectly on gas oil, and this is the most primitive oil conversion! Or another example, when Badanov's tank corps captured the airfield in Tatsinskaya, he needed to solve the problem with fuel. They took captured aviation gasoline, added motor oil there and that's it, "diesel fuel" is ready for use. So the installation of XNUMX-horsepower gasoline engines on the Panther is a good mine in a bad game, they say we didn’t need it.
      1. +26
        3 July 2019 19: 19
        Well, actually, Rudolf Diesel himself was German and the Germans mastered the production of diesel engines and not bad. MAN, Maybach, Deutz. Germany produced synthetic gasoline by coal hydration, but did not know how to obtain diesel fuel in this way. Hence the lack of tank diesels.
        1. -10
          3 July 2019 20: 03
          Then why did Germany produce other larger diesel engines? I would transplant the Kriegsmarine to gasoline engines and that’s all! The answer lies on the surface. The production of heavy diesel engines is not a high technology area. There, the fuel equipment is large and primitive in production, but to create a light (aluminum alloy, durable and compact) tank engine is a high-tech area. I am not saying that the Germans were not capable of this. They just wanted to enter paradise on their T-4, and when they caught it, it was already too late. The creation of a tank diesel engine would then become an unaffordable man-made luxury for warring Germany.
          1. +2
            3 July 2019 20: 18
            B2 is a modified GERMAN YUMO-4, aviation diesel. Hence the light alloys in its design.
            1. -4
              3 July 2019 20: 32
              You will directly answer the question why the Germans put inefficient (compared to diesel) gasoline engines on their tanks (even on the super-heavy Royal Tigers? Do you really think that because they had little diesel fuel, and at least fill up gasoline? This is certainly a mistake (perhaps fatal) in the military-industrial policy of Nazi Germany.
              1. +12
                3 July 2019 21: 16
                Because the Germans did not have their own oil. They have mastered the synthesis of gasoline, but not diesel fuel. They began cooperation with Romania only in 1939, so they designed tanks based on their own fuel. And this decision turned out to be correct, otherwise Germany would have capitulated due to a lack of DT, immediately after Romania was withdrawn from the allies.
              2. +5
                3 July 2019 21: 34
                This is undoubtedly a mistake, but tank diesel was not a problem for the Germans. I believe that the point is inertness, tankers who wanted all the tanks on the same fuel and with the same oil. For it is so simpler and cheaper. By the way, it’s also necessary to retrain those personnel for diesel engines and to expand the range of spare parts.
                1. +7
                  4 July 2019 06: 22
                  Just recently I read an article on the topic of this dispute
                  https://warspot.ru/14433-kak-zabuksoval-dizelnyy-vermaht
                  I think it’s worth bringing a conclusion from it:
                  In the early 1930s, the Germans tried to use aircraft engines on tanks, but the result did not suit them. Then they decided to develop specialized tank engines with an emphasis on compactness, high liter power and low torque at high speeds. The Maybach company presented successful samples on time and, with the support of Department No. 6 of the Arms Directorate, became a monopoly in this niche. Of course, the monopoly made the transition to diesel engines extremely difficult: although the Maybach company also worked on tank diesel engines, it had nothing to boast of in this area.

                  The peculiar approach to the creation of tanks also played a key role, in which the Ordnance Department not only gave firms requirements for a new tank, but also indicated in detail which engines and transmissions should be used. It got to the point that instead of a real and proven MB 100 diesel engine, they shoved a semi-mythical Maybach engine with a power of 507 hp on the E-1200, which was never created, and installed on an experimental chassis of a 140-ton tank ... the usual HL 230 at 700 hp!

                  The impossibility of synthesizing diesel fuel from coal and its severe shortage due to the voracious fleet are nothing more than myths that justify Maybach's lobbying. For the needs of the Wehrmacht, the Germans built more than 150 diesel trucks, and repeated attempts to put diesel engines on tanks speak volumes. The allegations that the Germans could neither create their own tank diesel nor copy the Soviet B-000 do not stand up to criticism. Above, we examined diesel engines of various capacities and dimensions, which have been successfully tested on armored vehicles. Moreover, this publication is not at all an attempt to “scrape everything in the bottom of the barrel” that is possible. There were other projects of tanks with diesel engines, for example, the "Multi-purpose tank" (Mehrzweckpanzer) with the Argus 2LD12H diesel engine, but it is impossible to consider all of them in one article.

                  Finally, we can quote Lieutenant General Erich Schneider, a graduate engineer who combined experience in his specialty with the subsequent command of the 4th Panzer Division of the Wehrmacht:

                  “The issue of installing diesel engines in tanks caused great controversy in Germany, the country where this type of engine was first created. The use of this engine in tanks was supported, among other things, by its more robust design, lower fuel consumption, adaptability to the most diverse types of fuel, and the lower risk of heavy fuel igniting when it hits the tank. With their T-34 tank, the Russians convincingly proved the exceptional suitability of a diesel engine for mounting it on a tank. But if military experts and leading firms in the engine industry openly spoke out in favor of this engine, then its opponents constantly sought to delay its introduction.

                  Shortly before their defeat, the Germans, with a great delay, nevertheless began to "diesel" the tank troops, but didn’t manage to do anything, so the Wehrmacht remained "gasoline" in the mass consciousness.
                2. +3
                  4 July 2019 23: 44
                  Quote: MooH
                  it's about inertia, tankers who wanted all tanks on the same fuel

                  This is not inertia, but logistics. The Americans also supplied gasoline-powered tanks to the army, and diesel-powered ones to the marines. In the fleet, in any case, there is diesel fuel. Supplying troops, and even in the course of hostilities, with different types of fuel is such a logistical hemorrhoid that God forbid.
                  1. +3
                    5 July 2019 01: 12
                    And the diesel trucks were operated in full, including in tank units. There were still logistical hemorrhoids, and tank diesels would certainly aggravate it, but not so much that it would become a tragedy.
              3. +3
                4 July 2019 12: 13
                Quote: Proxima
                Do you really think that due to the fact that they had little diesel fuel, and even pour gasoline?

                More than 100 Wehrmacht cars were diesel-powered ..... Somehow they drove, and a lot. Much more tanks.
            2. Alf
              +2
              3 July 2019 22: 17
              Quote: AS Ivanov.
              B2 is a modified GERMAN Yumo-4, an aircraft diesel.

              Jumo-004— (Jumo 109—004) is the world's first large-scale turbojet aircraft engine.
            3. +4
              3 July 2019 22: 59
              B-2 is anything but Junkers! Junkers invented and pushed to the masses exactly what later became the engine for the chainsaws of the Malyshev plant! Piston counter-movement, 2 strokes. B-2-12 cylinder V-shaped, in the past - or Bristol-Jupiter, or something from this. It was made diesel in the USSR.
              1. +4
                4 July 2019 07: 20
                Quote: 113262
                B-2-12 cylinder V-shaped, in the past, or Bristol-Jupiter, or some of this. They made it diesel in the USSR.

                Bristol-Jupiter is the star of Bristol Jupiter (In the USSR M-22) - a nine-cylinder single-row piston engine with star-shaped cylinders, developed by the British company Bristol.
                1. 0
                  4 July 2019 07: 32
                  Diesel Bristol.

                  Melkumov, T.M. "Aircraft diesels"
            4. +1
              4 July 2019 00: 54
              Quote: AS Ivanov.
              B2 is a modified GERMAN YUMO-4, aviation diesel. Hence the light alloys in its design.

              Do not carry nonsense. YuMO diesel engines have a completely different design and formed the basis of 5TDF and 6TD tank diesel engines. You are right about one thing - the BD-2 (V-2) diesel engine was developed as an aircraft diesel engine and was even put on the R-5 reconnaissance aircraft. https://alternathistory.livejournal.com/1671887.html
              1. +2
                4 July 2019 08: 09
                The German Jumo 205 of the early 1930s - it is the Soviet tank diesel 5TDF (1960-70s)


                The first thing that comes to mind when you look at the section of the Jumo 205 diesel engine is that in its scheme it is almost an exact copy of the Soviet 6TD tank diesel engine, or rather, on the contrary .. The resemblance is simply amazing! And the question involuntarily arises - is there a logical historical connection between these constructions and, perhaps, technical borrowing? ..

                At one time, Jumo diesel engines were found unsuitable for German Panzerwaffe tanks: "In Germany, a lot of experience has been gained in high-speed diesel engines, such as the 2-stroke aircraft diesel engines YuMO-205 and YuMO-207 with a capacity of 500 ... 700 hp. (365.. .515 kW) and 4-stroke "Daimler-Benz" - 700.. .800 hp (515.. .590 kW). However, by the beginning of the war, the main forces of the designers were concentrated on the development of gasoline aircraft engines "Daimler-Benz-630" and YuMO-211, with which German aviation spent the entire war. Since the YuMO-205, YuMO-207 and Daimler-Benz diesel engines were not suitable for tanks, German tank designers opted for gasoline engine." (E. A. Zubov. "Tank engines (from the history of tank building)" Edited by Ph.D. L.I. Pugachev. - M .: STC "Informtekhnika". 1991.)

                Soviet specialists were able to evaluate the Jumo 205 even before the war, studying captured equipment delivered from Spain. In his book "The German trace in the history of Soviet aviation: On the participation of German specialists in the development of aircraft manufacturing in the USSR," D.A. Sobolev writes: "But the military especially liked the Jumo 205 diesel engines installed on the Ju 86 bomber. In terms of specific fuel consumption and liter German aviation diesel power was noticeably superior to the main Soviet engines AM-34, M-25 and M-85. The Air Force Research Institute even recommended mass production of Jumo 205 at one of our factories. "

                However, even earlier, Jumo 4, the immediate predecessor of the Jumo 205, was tested at CIAM: "The Junkers 2-stroke aircraft diesel engine YuMO-4 purchased and tested at CIAM confirmed the enormous difficulties associated with refining and mastering the production of this type of engine" (E (A. Zubov. "Tank engines (from the history of tank building)" Edited by Ph.D. L.I. Pugachev. - M .: STC "Informtekhnika". 1991.)

                But the closest acquaintance with various trophy designs (including Junkers diesels ..) occurred after the end of World War II. I want to dwell on this period a little more ..

                Immediately after the war, the USSR headed for the development of new (captured) equipment by borrowing. In 1945, on the territory of Germany occupied by Soviet troops, about 600 German enterprises and their branches were identified and examined, which were somehow engaged in the production of aircraft, aircraft engines, aircraft instruments or their units and parts. Of this total number of factories engaged in aviation production, 213 major aviation enterprises were owned by leading German aviation firms.

                One of the most powerful aviation companies that found themselves in the Soviet occupation zone was the Junkers company, which had 499 sq. m of production space, 981 pieces of equipment, 6117 employees. At engine-building plants and their branches - 49 square meters of production space, 100 pieces of equipment, 316 employees. At aggregate plants - 430 square meters of production space, 9195 pieces of equipment, 54 workers.

                The development of new technology by borrowing, even with the existing full-scale samples and documentation, is associated with the solution of many technical, industrial and scientific problems. But the most important is the personnel problem. Where can we find specialists who are not just versed in technology and imagine the object of study, but have in-depth knowledge, and, most importantly, have experience in these areas? The solution to this problem can be carried out in various ways, however, in a specific historical situation, in the conditions of a shortage of time to train the appropriate personnel and to create workable products, subject to limited funding, there could be one thing - to involve German specialists who dealt with these topics in Germany.

                Already in the second half of 1945, for the development by German specialists of research topics and the design of new aircraft structures, Special Design Bureaus (OKB) were created on the basis of the former German research centers with experimental construction of the designed objects. Special Design Bureaus worked under the guidance and participation of Soviet specialists. The main working part of the OKB employees consisted of German specialists and workers. It should be noted that from the very beginning, Soviet specialists played the role of not only overseers and extras, but also tried to delve into the essence of the research process so deeply that it was possible to stop work at a certain moment due to their futility at this level of development of science, technology and technology.

                First of all, those German specialists who were permanent workers in these centers during the war were sent to work in the design bureaus. In total, 635 doctors, graduate engineers and engineers and 1500 technicians and craftsmen were involved. Among them were key figures, such as engineer Gerlach, the chief designer and head of the experimental base for the aviation diesel industry of the Junkers company, who had been working in this area since 1926. It was he who headed the OKB-1 (organized on April 17, 1946 in Dessau) work on fine-tuning the Jumo 224 diesel engine. Work on this diesel engine continued until OKB-1 moved to the USSR.

                There are a lot of interesting documents concerning the work of German specialists in the created design bureaus - first on the territory of occupied Germany, and subsequently on the territory of the USSR, where they were taken.

                Moreover, Soviet designers studied this diesel in the mid-1930s http://www.alexfiles99.narod.ru/library2/0001/jumo_and_5tdf_p3.htm
          2. +7
            4 July 2019 07: 12
            Quote: Proxima
            Then why other diesel engines larger Germany produced? Kriegsmarine would have been transplanted to gasoline engines and the whole business!

            How did you intend to install a gasoline engine in a submarine?
            1. 0
              4 July 2019 11: 27
              There were submarines with a gasoline engine, at the dawn of scuba diving. The first Russian type "Dolphin". The Germans at the beginning of the 20th century had submarines with a kerosene engine with forced ignition of the fuel mixture from a spark plug.
              1. +4
                4 July 2019 12: 09
                Quote: AS Ivanov.
                There were submarines with a gasoline engine, at the dawn of scuba diving.

                There were, of course. And abandoned them like a bad dream, as soon as diesel appeared
              2. +4
                4 July 2019 12: 37
                Gasoline was abandoned on the submarine at the first opportunity, because: it is volatile and its vapors are toxic and explosive - there is a story by L. Sobolev "Hold on, foreman" about the delivery of gasoline to the submarine to Sevastopol ... I recommend ...
        2. +4
          3 July 2019 20: 41
          Quote: AS Ivanov.
          Well, actually, Rudolf Diesel himself was a German and the Germans mastered the production of diesel engines and not bad. MAN, Maybach, Deitz.

          And imagine even aviation diesel motors...
          And the planes flew on them ...
          1. 0
            4 July 2019 07: 29
            Ju-86 flew on diesels with oncoming pistons. Then they began to put such in the USSR on diesel locomotives and submarines.
        3. NKT
          0
          3 July 2019 20: 51
          Received and DT:
        4. 0
          3 July 2019 23: 20
          a couple of tables, we’ll discuss tomorrow:





        5. +2
          4 July 2019 10: 17
          Quote: AS Ivanov.
          Germany produced synthetic gasoline by the method of hydration of coal, but did not know how to obtain diesel fuel in this way.

          Sorry, she knew how, only coal hydrogenation is effective for producing gasoline, diesel fuel is too expensive to produce. Synthetic gasoline was almost twice as expensive as distilled gasoline, and synthesis diesel fuel was more than 3 times more expensive than conventional diesel fuel.
        6. 0
          4 July 2019 13: 57
          Diesel fuel has also been successfully obtained synthetic. The point is the unification of engines.
          Towards the end of the war, they began to switch to diesel engines, but the war quickly ended and did not have time.
      2. +5
        3 July 2019 21: 41
        Half of the trucks in the Germans were diesel. They would not have problems with the production of tank diesel engines. The Czech Republic produced car diesel engines (up to 200hp), Austria, France.
        1. 0
          4 July 2019 12: 39
          Quote: Potter
          Half of the Germans' trucks were diesel

          Strictly speaking, in the 30s, the Germans were going to make a three-ton diesel engine the standard ("Single Diesel"). But it didn’t work out, they switched to the Opel Blitz and in general everything that turns up.
      3. -4
        4 July 2019 10: 15
        Well, yes, we couldn’t even make an engine for trucks, not only our normal trucks and not a single sane aircraft engine with a turbine, but "our technologies" and women's fingers, in addition to a hat, could also process a diesel engine - Enchanting nonsense and blind "soviet" faith -In 38-39, the Germans already had a high-altitude version of the Junkers 88-Yu86 high-altitude variant with a pressurized cabin and high-speed aircraft diesel engines from the YuMMO company and flew so that the MiGs could not get it (according to archival data, 3 Miggs drove the Yu86 at their extreme heights - as a result, 2 fell into a tailspin and crashed, and one was forced to "dump" from the chase without being able to gain the same height as Yu 86) Pictures from these aircraft can be viewed from the archives and the Internet - Already declassified and posted for free access)
        It would be time to reconsider our belief in "the impossibility of making a diesel engine by the Germans" - After the war, ours copied submarines of the 21 series and diesel engines from them and quite rode them.
      4. +3
        4 July 2019 11: 18
        Quote: Proxima
        The author repeated the bike roaming the Internet,

        let me disagree with you, dear
        in my opinion, the author writes things that he himself thoroughly studied and comprehended
        Germans were able to do diesel engines well and even aviation (our V-2 also had views of aviation from the very beginning and even A.D. Charomsky himself had a hand in it)
        on the production of synthetic diesel fuel, there was also a very sensible article on VO recently.
        so it’s not so simple .. hi
        1. 0
          4 July 2019 12: 42
          Quote: A1845
          view the author writes things that he himself thoroughly studied and comprehended

          The author in this matter seems to follow Baryatinsky, and he, in turn, follows the GABTU, which in the 43rd, or something, year, gave its thoughts on German tank engines. The issue has not been studied in depth.
          1. +1
            4 July 2019 12: 49
            Quote from axes
            The issue has not been studied in depth

            many at that time had the opportunity to produce diesel engines applicable in tanks
            both the British and the Americans used them, but very limitedly
            1. 0
              4 July 2019 20: 55
              Why is this limited? Sherman Valentines with diesel engines came to us
              1. 0
                5 July 2019 12: 18
                Quote: Ruger-para
                Why is it limited

                because they supplied themselves with gasoline
                1. 0
                  5 July 2019 18: 26
                  Duck this did not mean that there were few of them in general. It would be necessary if all diesel engines were
                  1. 0
                    8 July 2019 09: 14
                    Quote: Ruger-para
                    Duck this did not mean that there were few of them in general. It would be necessary if all diesel engines were

                    It's right
                    the fact of the matter is that they did not need it
    3. 0
      3 July 2019 22: 53
      All right. And it was worth (disregarding the sides of the war) to focus on 2 models, the T-4 and, say, the T-6. The first mass-produced, universal, one could also conjure with armor, and put a 75mm gun more powerful, and the second - a heavy breakthrough tank, a tank destroyer, a priori produced in a smaller number.
      1. +4
        3 July 2019 23: 26
        With the T-IV, it was no longer possible to do upgrades. The chassis did not pull more armor weight.
        And the tower for a more powerful gun could not be made, although they tried.
        Therefore, I had to start a Panther project.
        1. +2
          3 July 2019 23: 36
          Then, it turns out, it should not be over-fed up with the T-5 (including plans to equip it with an 88-mm gun).
          There was also a mistake with the chassis (checkerboard) ... Well, the general dampness.
          Her armor concept was very progressive - differentiated armor. Able to keep your own caliber at a distance in the forehead. Unlike the 34, which also had a weakened hatch area in the forehead.
          Again - in difficult conditions, one cannot scatter efforts on many projects.
          1. +4
            3 July 2019 23: 42
            The Panther had severe transmission problems for a long time.
            The author of the article wrote about this.
            Damage to the tank. Near Kursk half of the attackers
            The Panthers broke hopelessly even before the clashes with the PTA and spacecraft crews.
            Serves right. There was no point in throwing such a crude tank into a decisive battle for Germany.
            1. -3
              4 July 2019 12: 34
              if they had abandoned the tank that had been brought, then the Jews had already been 70 years old. would not exist on earth.
              1. +1
                5 July 2019 22: 58
                But what would they do in 1945, after the atomic bombing of Berlin and a number of other cities?
                The anti-Semitic practices of the Nazis are inhuman nonsense. And a lot of stupidity in political terms. They have lost many talented people, turned against themselves even more. If the Nazis had come up with some kind of compromise, some kind of assimilation program (they obviously couldn’t just leave it alone), they would have gained an advantage.
                1. Alf
                  +1
                  6 July 2019 17: 34
                  Quote: 3danimal
                  But what would they do in 1945, after the atomic bombing of Berlin and a number of other cities?

                  How to bomb something, a pair of vigorous bombs? The United States didn't have that anymore. And then, the Americans destroyed Dresden and Hamburg, did this greatly affect the ability and willingness to fight Germany?
                  1. 0
                    7 July 2019 05: 09
                    They basically didn’t “hammer out” Berlin; the end of the war was a matter of the near future.
                    And with the atomic bombing (in the event of Hitler's success in the war with the USSR), everything could have turned out, as with Japan: a bluff, the Nazis did not have accurate data on the number of charges in the United States, the threat of continuing to burn cities. Plus, SUCH a blow to the capital would cause huge psychological damage.
                    1. Alf
                      +1
                      7 July 2019 15: 12
                      Quote: 3danimal
                      the lack of accurate data from the Nazis on the number of charges in the United States,

                      Can you imagine the Reich intelligence level?
                      Quote: 3danimal
                      SUCH a blow to the capital would cause enormous psychological damage.

                      In the 40th year the Germans turned half-London into firebrands. The British surrendered, morale fell?
                      1. +1
                        7 July 2019 21: 55
                        First, I will likewise say about the level of secrecy of the US Manhattan Project.
                        Secondly, you greatly exaggerate the destruction of London. Tokyo, scorched by carpet bombing, is far away.
                        And here - an unknown super-powerful weapon, practically - Star Wars.
                        In particular, when a charge was dropped in the region of the Reich Chancellor, many inhabitants of her shelter would die (due to collapses, since no one expected such a power). Large collateral damage from the explosion, of which nothing is known (burnt, blind, irradiated). The first persons visiting the ruins could very likely acquire radiation sickness.
                        Just imagine: a blow to the capital, then (after a couple of days) - to a large industrial center. And the offer of surrender (perhaps NOT unconditional), from the perspective of “maybe you have enough? Or repeat ... "
                      2. Alf
                        +1
                        7 July 2019 21: 59
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Firstly, I will similarly say about the level of secrecy of the Manhattan Project e.

                        Our intelligence was at home there, why do you think the Canaris boys are silly?
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        The first persons visiting the ruins could very likely acquire radiation sickness.

                        And who then knew about radiation sickness?
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Great collateral damage from the explosion

                        And from the bombing of Hamburg, Dresden, Cologne, weren't there burnt and blind people?
                        Your only real argument about losing control.
                      3. 0
                        8 July 2019 10: 30
                        The entire force of the intelligence of the USSR was based on the assistance (often voluntary) of American "useful idiots" - socialists, who imagined the structure and life in the Union only from propaganda pictures. (Leningrad spoke about the use of useful idioms).
                        There were an order of magnitude fewer Nazi sympathizers.
                        The lack of information about radiation sickness would just increase the losses among officials and specialists.
                        Until the end of 1945, they could produce a few more bombs.
                        Further, we remember that at the time the Union tested the nuclear device, the United States already had about 200 charges, therefore, the process was put on stream.
                        The end of the Reich still came, inglorious, painful, with colossal casualties.
                        And in the event of Hitler's death during an attack on Berlin, his entourage would very likely begin negotiations and bidding on the form of surrender.
                      4. Alf
                        +2
                        8 July 2019 20: 25
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        The entire intelligence force of the USSR was based on the assistance (often voluntary) of the American “useful idiots” socialists,

                        In intelligence, many more locals work for money, not for an idea. A very often used technique is when a Soviet intelligence officer recruits a foreigner, posing as an agent of MI6, Surte Generale, BND, etc. This is the a..
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        Until the end of 1945, they could produce a few more bombs.



                      5. 0
                        8 July 2019 22: 10
                        And were you too lazy to name the source of your cuts? Or should something printed a priori be credible?
                        And in the second cut, stylistics is generally in the spirit of sensationally-revealing literature.
                        The calculation was simple: by August 1945, the United States had 2 charges ready for use. By 1949 (when the first Soviet one was just tested) - already 200. Such an increase in 4 years. Suppose that 90 percent was produced in 1946-49, but a few additional ammunition was quite affordable in the 45th.
                        And most importantly, how would the Nazis respond? The supply of major cities and racially correct populations is limited. With its reduction, say, three times, with the help of whom to maintain control over the territories and wage war? There is only one way out - negotiations on surrender. Especially in the event of the death of the leader.
                      6. Alf
                        +1
                        7 July 2019 22: 00
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        And here is an unknown heavy-duty weapon,

                        Just a super powerful bomb. So they would say to the population and troops.
            2. 0
              4 July 2019 20: 56
              Well, there’s also a lot of burnt. But definitely not half. from the total number of hoarded
            3. 0
              5 July 2019 07: 45
              Again, there is an example of the Americans, who (carrying out work on heavy tanks) continued to use Sherman as the main unit. German counterpart - T-4
          2. 0
            5 July 2019 15: 04
            Quote: 3danimal
            Then, it turns out, it should not be over-fed up with the T-5 (including plans to equip it with an 88-mm gun).
            The problem of "overfeeding" the "Panther" is in its very concept - thinking about it as a "medium" \ "main" tank, while it should have been able to withstand at least 3-5 Soviet tanks of the T-34 \ 76 type, and hence the large dimensions, more weight, more powerful gun, etc.

            With the chassis (and a lot more) - yes, there were problems, yes, they threw a crude tank into the battle, then the Nazis had no other choice (the Tigers would have been almost without support at all).
        2. 0
          4 July 2019 12: 41
          Quote: voyaka uh
          The chassis did not pull more armor.

          much more - forehead in 43g is already 80mm!
          Quote: voyaka uh
          And the tower for a more powerful gun could not be made, although they tried

          why is a 48 cal gun bad? She beat all our tanks ...
          the Germans fell into the usual - the best is the enemy of the good! request
          1. +3
            4 July 2019 12: 51
            Have you noticed that on the T-IV already in 1942 they began to put side armor screens on the turret and on the hull? (Because of this, they were still often mistaken for Tigers). These screens are not from the good life. The T-4 was a good tank, but it ran out of steam. The transition to the Panthers was forced.
            The Germans did not have a reserve for tank crews. Mass production of not-so-good tanks was impossible - there would be no one to plant in them.
            1. -1
              4 July 2019 14: 07
              Quote: voyaka uh
              The T-4 was a good tank, but it ran out of steam. The transition to the Panthers was forced.

              The transition was a mistake, the modernized T-4 was not inferior to the T-34 in the main thing: the gun and frontal armor! In mobility, the panther was worse.
              Quote: voyaka uh
              The Germans did not have a reserve for tank crews.

              they also transferred anti-tank guns to self-propelled guns - what prevented tankers from being trained?
              Quote: voyaka uh
              The mass production of not very good tanks was impossible - there would be no one to plant in them.
              they did it...
          2. +4
            4 July 2019 13: 01
            "The Germans fell into the ordinary - the best is the enemy of the good!" ///
            ----
            The Germans fell into the usual:
            1) there are no reserves - there would not be enough trained crews for a mass tank.
            2) there are no resources - there would not be enough gasoline for a hundred thousand tanks.
            They had to design expensive but efficient cars.
            Although this in no way could help when starting a war with the three largest military powers in the world: the USSR, the USA and the British Empire (including Canada, Australia, etc.).
            1. 0
              4 July 2019 14: 11
              Quote: voyaka uh
              The Germans fell into the usual:

              for them....
              Quote: voyaka uh
              1) there are no reserves - there would not be enough trained crews for a mass tank.

              from what? They mass prepared crews of submarines ...
              Quote: voyaka uh
              2) there are no resources - there would not be enough gasoline for a hundred thousand tanks.

              1) the question is not 100 tons, they could triple the production of T-4 at the expense of panthers.
              2) do not fight without resources ...
              Quote: voyaka uh
              They had to design expensive but efficient cars.

              the effectiveness of tigers and panthers is largely far-fetched in several episodes hi

              Quote: voyaka uh
              when you start a war

              exactly!
              1. 0
                5 July 2019 10: 57
                The calculation was on rush, blitzkrieg. Dictators often embark on such adventures, because they do not owe anything to the peoples of their countries (they believe that the opposite).
                1. 0
                  5 July 2019 12: 39
                  Quote: 3danimal
                  The calculation was on rush, blitzkrieg.

                  the war is easy to start ...
                  Quote: 3danimal
                  Dictators often embark on such adventures,

                  need to mark:
                  1) Hitler came to power through elections and legally... request Germany wanted the Fuhrer and got ...
                  2) Before that, his adventures were resolved quite successfully ... remember his words "I, count, have no other choice." request
                  1. 0
                    5 July 2019 22: 45
                    And this is not the first dictator to come through the elections (and immediately cancel them). There are "domestic" candidates, for example, the notorious Limonov) I honestly admitted that the elections in which he wins will be the last.
                    1. -1
                      6 July 2019 13: 02
                      Quote: 3danimal
                      And this is not the first dictator to come through elections

                      note that the Bolsheviks simply seized power ...
                      1. Alf
                        +2
                        6 July 2019 17: 35
                        Quote: ser56
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        And this is not the first dictator to come through elections

                        note that the Bolsheviks simply seized power ...

                        By that time, power as such had disappeared in Russia, the Bolsheviks simply raised it.
                      2. 0
                        8 July 2019 11: 17
                        Quote: Alf
                        By that time, power as such had disappeared in Russia, the Bolsheviks simply raised it.

                        1) You still can't move away from the Short Course? bully
                        2) I remind you that the elections to the Constituent Assembly were being prepared, which even the Bolsheviks could not note - that would decide the fate of the country ...
                      3. 0
                        7 July 2019 05: 02
                        All right. Also, they are not the first. Indeed, the consequences were horrendous.
            2. -1
              5 July 2019 10: 54
              Now someone will start to flood that the USA and Britain supported Hitler, and in general we could defeat the Nazis without any help (victorious in blood, etc.)
              1. 0
                5 July 2019 12: 39
                Quote: 3danimal
                in general, we could defeat the Nazis without any help

                in 1939 - without any great blood ... hi
                1. -3
                  5 July 2019 22: 47
                  Hypothetically. Again, let's not forget about the loss of more than half of the officer corps due to spying on the native dictator.
                  1. 0
                    6 July 2019 13: 01
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    Hypothetically.

                    Of course, history has no reverse course ...
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    let's not forget about the loss of more than half of the officer corps due to spying on the native dictator.

                    1) you have somewhat strange numbers - 12 out of 000 were arrested, some of those arrested were released ... however, there was also Operation Spring in 230, so the frames were cleaned up ...
                    2) More importantly, aviation, tank troops of the Red Army, artillery and cavalry were in good condition, the materiel was not inferior to the Germans at all, and the number was noticeably larger ...
                    1. 0
                      6 July 2019 13: 07
                      Quote: ser56
                      More importantly, ... the tank troops of the Red Army, ... were not in bad condition, the materiel was not inferior to the Germans at all, and the number was noticeably greater ...
                      But what about the quality condition? Have you read the book by Ulanov and Shein "Order in the tank forces? Where did Stalin's tanks disappear?" They have very interesting documents there and they cite calculations about it.
                      1. +2
                        6 July 2019 13: 22
                        Quote: svp67
                        But what about the quality condition?

                        what do you mean by that? Compare TTX BT-7 and T-2? Or T-26 and T-1? Consider their number - we have 8 times more than each type ... hi And we still have 500 T-28s against 240 T-3s and T-4s from the Germans ....
                        Quote: svp67
                        Have you ever read a book

                        no
                        Quote: svp67
                        very interesting documents and calculations lead to this

                        this is curious, but I will give you a banal example - the march of tank brigades of the Red Army in Mongolia in 39g for 500km without problems ... and the march of the Germans to Austria during the Anschluss at 38, when up to 50% of equipment was lost ... Compare the roads? good and you can write any documents ... bully
                      2. 0
                        6 July 2019 13: 34
                        Quote: ser56
                        We will take into account their number - we have 8 times more than each type ...

                        And also take into account their location. Where are they located and how soon they can be on the front line.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Compare the TTX BT-7 and T-2?

                        By the way, our Pz2s and T-26s were quite tough.
                        Quote: ser56
                        this is curious, but I will give you a banal example - the march of tank brigades of the Red Army in Mongolia in 39g for 500km without problems ... and the march of the Germans to Austria during the Anschluss at 38, when up to 50% of equipment was lost ... Compare the roads?

                        I'm afraid to disappoint you. But in order for our LTBR to be able to make such a march, the commander of the Far Eastern Front, commander of the 2nd rank Stern G.N., did a hell of a job on arranging the column tracks. Just hellish, forcing them to level out, equip them with bridges, pipelines for supplying fuel and water, places for halts and equipped areas for concentrating and collecting damaged equipment. It was he who was one of the creators of the victory at Halkin Gol, for which he deservedly received the title of GSS. And without this work, everything could have ended just like the march of our tanks to Lake Khasan
                        And there will be an opportunity to read a book, a very interesting story about the true situation in our tank troops before the war and in its first period.
                        The inventory carried out after the replacement of Voroshilov with Timoshenko as People's Commissar of Defense revealed absolutely amazing things, in particular “... comparing the presence of combat vehicles with the number of industrial vehicles produced by industrial plants, the following discrepancies were revealed:
                        Missing:
                        BT-7 96 cars
                        BT-2 34 cars
                        BT-5 46 cars
                        T-26 103 cars
                        T-38 193 cars
                        T-37 211 cars
                        T-27 780 cars
                        BA-10 94 cars
                        BA-6 54 cars
                        FAI 234 cars
                        Raised archival material from the 1929 accounting year, spec. the dispatch of [15] and the cancellation of combat vehicles did not give a significant change in reducing shortages, since no cancellation of combat vehicles was carried out before 1936.
                        The number of retired cars, for example, T-27 - 26 units - is clearly not true, since the production of these machines began with the 1931 of the year and over the 10 of the year this figure should undoubtedly be much larger ... "[16]
                        How do you like the scale of the "shortage", huh?
                      3. 0
                        8 July 2019 11: 30
                        Quote: svp67
                        And also take into account their location. Where are they located and how soon they can be on the front line.

                        you have funny arguments, as I understand it, you can’t move away from the theses of Soviet propaganda ... bully actually it’s a question of planning the General Staff of the Red Army, the main thing is that they were ... 36 TBR against 6 tank and light divisions of the Germans ..
                        Quote: svp67
                        By the way, our Pz2s and T-26s were quite tough.

                        1) Seriously? bully Then declare the T-60 with 20 mm ShVAK a super tank? laughing
                        2) Is it okay that the mass of the 20K projectile is 10 times greater? feel
                        3) I do not hear the praise of the T-1! bully Well, that one then cuts down MG 34 T-26 ... crying
                        Quote: svp67
                        did a hell of a job on the arrangement of the column tracks.

                        1) How is it even inconvenient for you (the tankman) to ask - do you understand the difference between the column roads in Mongolia and the highway on the German-Austrian border? hi Or do you think that the Germans did not prepare the march? Was there a desert on the way of the German columns? wassat Well - consider the Germans march to the Czech Republic - the picture is better, but close ... the Germans also worked on the mistakes ...
                        2) As I understand it, do you reject any real argument in favor of the capabilities of the Red Army a priori?
                        And to the question about the warm, you will answer about the soft ... request
                        Quote: svp67
                        He was one of the creators of the victory at Halkin Gol

                        Does anyone argue with this?
                      4. 0
                        8 July 2019 11: 56
                        Quote: ser56
                        you have funny arguments, as I understand it, you can’t move away from the theses of Soviet propaganda ...

                        What are you talking about, Father? Can you imagine the size of our country? And the Wehrmacht tank division located near Poznan has more chances to quickly be on the front line than the Red Army tank division located near Ussuriysk
                        Quote: ser56
                        But nothing that the mass of the projectile at 20K is 10 times greater?

                        You are somehow strange, like a child, but you already don’t have enough ideas to find out the armor penetration and rate of fire of the Pz-2 tank gun. Especially look at the properties of her BPS.
                        Quote: ser56
                        1) It’s even inconvenient to ask you (a tanker) - do you understand the difference between the columned tracks in Mongolia and the highway on the German-Austrian border? Or do you think that the Germans were not preparing a march? Was there a desert in the way of the German columns? Well - consider the German march to the Czech Republic - the picture is better, but close ... the Germans also worked on the bugs ...

                        So compare the advance of tank units in Austria with Hassan, and in the Czech Republic with the Halkin goal, it will be more honest.
                        Quote: ser56
                        2) As I understand it, do you reject any real argument in favor of the capabilities of the Red Army a priori?

                        No, I'm proud of my army and the people who managed to accomplish just a MIRACLE - WIN
                      5. 0
                        8 July 2019 13: 35
                        Quote: svp67
                        What are you talking about, my friend?

                        About. that according to Soviet propaganda in the Red Army there were few tanks and obsolete bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        Do you represent the size of our country?

                        quite
                        Quote: svp67
                        is more likely to quickly be on the front line,

                        1) I will tell you a secret - they don’t enter the war just like that - there is a preparatory period!
                        2) I will tell you a second secret - the deployment of tank troops depends on the presence of threats.
                        Quote: svp67
                        than the tank division of the RKK

                        I will enlighten you, in 1938 there were no tank divisions in the Red Army ... request
                        Quote: svp67
                        How strange you are, like a child

                        I understand that you have no other arguments? bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        You are already lacking in thinking.

                        smacks of hysteria already ... bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        Especially see the properties of its BPS.

                        Yes, funny - "20 mm at a distance of 500 m." this is just the forehead of the BT case ... bully
                        And the mass of the projectile is 0,148 g ...
                        Oh, how scary - let's compare the damaging effect of a BB weighing 1,43 kg with 22g of explosives?
                        And the range from which 20K will the frontal T-2 penetrate? bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        So compare the advance of tank units in Austria with Hassan, and in the Czech Republic with the Halkin goal, it will be more honest.

                        Do you propose to compare the march along the hills with the march along European roads? bully
                        Further, I see no reason for you to prove something!
                        falsification of the capabilities of the Red Army has been ingrained in your blood! bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        No, I'm proud of my army and the people who managed to accomplish just a MIRACLE - WIN

                        went classic demagoguery ...
                        1) Are you proud of the defeat of 1941? When did the leadership of the USSR and the Red Army provide the most terrible scenario for the outbreak of war? When was the personnel army and weapons defeated in 2 months? When did the Germans end up near Moscow? And that the leadership of the USSR and the Red Army did not answer for this (Pavlov and Co. are switchmen) either then or later ...
                        2) Or the terrible suffering of the Russian people and their losses in this war?
                        3) Victory is valuable in itself, but its price was excessive not only because of the strength of the enemy! And the enemy, yes - was strong! But above all because of the political and military mistakes of the leadership of our country! There is such an expression - Pyrrhic victory! And that's just our case... hi
                      6. 0
                        8 July 2019 14: 30
                        Quote: ser56
                        I'll tell you a secret - they don't just go to war - there is a preparatory period!

                        I will open your eyes to this "secret". Our military experts, in this case, did not wait for this "period" from the Germans. He was absent from the Blitzkrieg strategy.
                        Quote: ser56
                        I will enlighten you, in 1938 there were no tank divisions in the Red Army ...

                        Then I will "enlighten" you, in 1938 there were no tank corps in the Wehrmacht
                        Quote: ser56
                        went classic demagoguery ...

                        An example of which you show.
                        Quote: ser56
                        There is such an expression - Pyrrhic victory! And that's just our case...

                        You know, everyone evaluates this historical event in their own way. And you won't convince me with your demagogy. I remember what this holiday was for my grandparents, and it was they who pulled this war on their shoulders. And he is the same with me.
                        And mistakes, yes they were. But it is our task not to repeat them.
                      7. 0
                        8 July 2019 15: 42
                        Quote: svp67
                        I will open your eyes to this "secret

                        stamps again...
                        Quote: svp67
                        Our military experts, in this case, did not wait for this "period" from the Germans. He was absent from the Blitzkrieg strategy.

                        you are sad! bully This period began in the middle of 1939, passed into the final stage in the spring of 1941 - only those who did not want to see this did not see ... By the way, the IVS spoke directly about this at the graduation of military academies ...
                        Quote: svp67
                        , in 1938 there were no tank corps in the Wehrmacht

                        1) Did I really talk about the Germans having these? something you bring me in vain ... decided to come up with arguments in the spirit of Agitprop? funny ... bully
                        2) The presence of these just speaks of the offensive capabilities of the Red Army, as well as the presence of 9 KK ... hi
                        Quote: svp67
                        An example of which you show.

                        unfounded translation of arrows! the question was about the level of training of the tank troops of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht in 1938 - I cited the long marches of these troops as an example! A long march is just a test for combat training and the quality of equipment, if you don’t know ... feel if you don’t like factology, this is your problem ...
                        Quote: svp67
                        And mistakes, yes they were

                        you call it a mistake? These are official and military crimes! What am I doing with the commander of the unit, who, through stupidity and indiscretion, set up his troops and led to their death? Put on trial...
                        Quote: svp67
                        But it is already our task not to repeat them.

                        without identifying them, naming the perpetrators, this task cannot be ruffled ... and when there are monuments to one of the main perpetrators of the defeat of 1941 - the GKZH on the squares, then this does not look like working on mistakes ...
                        This is called differently - hiding evidence!
                        Quote: svp67
                        I remember what this holiday was for my grandfathers and grandmothers, and it was they who pulled this war on their shoulders

                        1) let's say this - you are again replacing the subject of discussion - the question is not the status of the holiday! This is the victory of good over evil!
                        2) Just in memory of my grandmother, who was starving with 3 young children, I want to know who is guilty of the defeat of the Red Army in 1941! about the Germans do not - these are enemies!
                      8. 0
                        8 July 2019 15: 53
                        Quote: ser56
                        By the way, the IVS spoke directly about this at the graduation of military academies ...

                        Remind what he said. Pliz
                        Quote: ser56
                        But did I say that the Germans had these?

                        No, but. And this is not agitprom. This is just a statement that if the Germans had TD with their fist, then we have TC. And for the blow it was necessary to transfer that something else
                        Quote: ser56
                        and when on the squares there are monuments to one of the main perpetrators of the defeat of 1941 - GKZH,

                        Yes, he is guilty, although many do not want to admit it. But one should not deny all the same his contribution to the Victory. And if it went like this, then everyone who started fighting before the fall of 1943 was somehow to blame for the defeats
                        Quote: ser56
                        This is called differently - hiding evidence!

                        Everyone decides in his own way.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Just in memory of my grandmother, who was starving with 3 young children, I want to know who is guilty of the defeat of the Red Army in 1941!

                        Take documents and understand. This question is not so complicated when you start to analyze not so quantitative as the qualitative condition of our troops and the country as a whole.
                      9. 0
                        8 July 2019 16: 31
                        Quote: svp67
                        Remind what he said. Pliz

                        "While conducting the defense of our country, we are obliged to act in an offensive manner. From defense to move on to a military policy of offensive operations. We need to restructure our education, our propaganda, agitation, our press in an offensive spirit. The Red Army is a modern army, and the modern army is an offensive army ."
                        http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/stalin-5-5-41.shtml
                        Quote: svp67
                        This is just a statement that if the Germans had a TD with a shock fist, then we have a TK

                        you forgot about horse-mechanized groups ....
                        Quote: svp67
                        And for the blow it was necessary to throw something, something else

                        and it was also necessary to transport fuel, ammunition, etc. etc. This is a matter of planning operations, nothing more! At the same time, the Germans in 38g had only 6 TDs, while the Red Army had noticeably more tools - MK, KK, etc.
                        Quote: svp67
                        But one should not deny all the same his contribution to the Victory.

                        many marshals thought differently ... some Brody of which are worth - 4500 tanks against 900 and a complete defeat ...
                        Quote: svp67
                        And if that happened, then everyone who started fighting before the fall of 1943 was somehow to blame for the defeats

                        an amusing point of view - what are the faults of the soldiers and commanders of the Brest Fortress, who were trapped under the artillery fire? Or that TD 2 km from the border?
                        Quote: svp67
                        each decides in his own way

                        I expressed my opinion ...
                        Quote: svp67
                        Take documents and understand.

                        I have another job ... this is a question for those crowds of "historians" who wrote and are writing blatant lies out of mercenary motives ...
                        Quote: svp67
                        how quality the state of our troops and the country as a whole.

                        Is there an 2 version?
                        1) we Russians are not human feel
                        2) the country in 1917-41 was ruled by a gang of idiots, incapable of reasonable action ... request
                        I don’t know about you, but the 2nd version is closer to me, because in 1MV RIA fought not bad at all ... hi yes and then. when new nominees came to replace the ideologically restrained from the punishers of the GV ...
                      10. 0
                        8 July 2019 16: 42
                        Quote: ser56
                        "Conducting the defense of our country ...,

                        Sorry, but this is a purely political statement that does little in understanding the processes taking place in the "special period"
                        Quote: ser56
                        I have another job ... this is a question for those crowds of "historians" who wrote and are writing blatant lies out of mercenary motives ...

                        Not everyone. Isaev writes very interestingly and documented.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Is there an 2 version?
                        1) we Russians are not human
                        2) the country in 1917-41 was ruled by a gang of idiots, incapable of reasonable action ...

                        And the option that the country from "peasant" became "industrial" and did it "by leaps and bounds", not having the proper number of well-trained personnel, did not come to mind?
                      11. 0
                        8 July 2019 17: 29
                        Quote: svp67
                        Sorry, but this is a purely political statement.

                        But is an ITT not a politician? bully Please note - the question of defense is not raised ... maybe this is spread rot for the whole world by V. Suvorov? It’s also interesting about 2 fronts for Germany and its allies ...
                        Quote: svp67
                        Isaev writes very interestingly and documentedly.

                        wrote ... baked ...
                        Quote: svp67
                        from "peasant" it became "industrial" and did it "by leaps and bounds", not having the proper number of well-trained personnel, didn’t come to mind?

                        Agitprop again... bully
                        1) RI was a fully developed country (5th-6th place in the world) and it was the Bolsheviks who staged the Civil War in it with their coup ... its consequence was devastation, the loss of 2 million educated people ... Let me remind you that the growth rate in the RI industry in 09-13 g were above 1 five-year plan (and without bullshit) while maintaining consumption and without problems with personnel .. Well, let it be - the tsarist ministers and generals muddied the revolution, and out of stupidity and swagger ...
                        2) Let me remind you that the remnants of the tsarist cadres were defeated in 1930, in the industry of the Industrial Party, in the Red Army, the case of Spring ... then who is to blame? It is clear that the enemy of the people Polikarpov made bad fighters, but who is better? bully Or General Svechin incorrectly interpreted the strategy ... but who is better? IVS, which allowed to defeat France?
                        3) Do I start about your mind too? hi
                      12. 0
                        8 July 2019 18: 22
                        Quote: ser56
                        Please note - the question of defense is not raised ... maybe this is spread rot for the whole world by V. Suvorov?

                        Defense can also be active, that is, offensive. You haven’t read Tukhachevsky yet, that’s where the complete bummer is. You expect military analysis and calculations from his work, and there is a continuous propaganda. And believe me, Mr. Rezun lies in his books, juggling the facts and not noticing the inconvenient ones.
                        Quote: ser56
                        Agitprop again...

                        No "History of Russia"
                        Quote: ser56
                        RI was a fully developed country (5-6th place in the world)

                        Sorry, but you strongly idealize RI and its army. All the same, WWII was very different from WWII. And if Germany waged a war not on two fronts, but crushed its opponents in stages, as they tried to do in WWII, then I assure you that the army of the Republic of Ingushetia would have already been defeated by the middle of 1915. Since fighting with "bare hands", experiencing "shell and weapons hunger" is somehow not very good. The only thing, of course, is that the Germans could not have made such deep raids, since they did not yet have the "tool" that appeared by September 1, 1939 - the deadly "Panzerwaffe" and "Luftwaffe"
                        Quote: ser56
                        Let me remind you that the remnants of the tsarist cadres were defeated in 1930, in the industry of the Industrial Party, in the Red Army, the case is Spring ... then who is to blame?

                        And mind you, all this happened under very plausible slogans "for all the good, against all the bad"
                        Quote: ser56
                        Me about your mind too in otvetku begin?

                        I'm sorry if I offended you, but I don't like politicking. It's too much.
                      13. 0
                        9 July 2019 14: 14
                        Quote: svp67
                        You haven’t read Tukhachevsky yet, that’s where the complete bummer is.

                        had tried... bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        And believe me, Mr. Rezun lies in his books, juggling the facts and not noticing the inconvenient ones.

                        1) still Viktor Suvorov ...
                        2) How does he differ in this from the "historians" of Agitprop? request except that he writes entertainingly ...
                        3) It was in the confrontation with V. Suvorov that the wretchedness of our military "history" became visible, after 5 years Churchill wrote fairly honest memoirs, we still have secrets ...
                        Quote: svp67
                        No "History of Russia"

                        in quotes... bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        but you strongly idealize RI and its army

                        by no means...
                        Quote: svp67
                        e still PMV was very different from WWII

                        and WW1 was very different from the REV, so what? This is fine...
                        Quote: svp67
                        And if Germany waged a war not on two fronts, but crushed its opponents in stages, as they tried to do in WWII, then I assure you that the army of the Republic of Ingushetia would have already been defeated by the middle of 1915.

                        You are funny, in WW1 Germany did not allow you to beat opponents one by one, but the IVS allowed it - "genius" ... And what a chance he had in May 1940 ... hi However, overslept, if not tougher ..... bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        experiencing "shell and weapons hunger" is somehow not very good.

                        and it was not in other countries? In the same France? By the way, by 1916 this was overcome ...
                        Quote: svp67
                        since they did not yet have the "tool" that had appeared by September 1, 1939 - the deadly "Panzerwaffe" and "Luftwaffe"

                        1) re-read the Schlieffen plan - this is a brilliant plan ... and the Kaiser had excellent infantry, which is much more important!
                        2) all the successes of these waffes are simply a consequence of the strategic stupidity of the IVS and other rulers of Europe before Churchill ... He was a wise man and wrote everything exactly - if you don’t crush the reptile in the cradle, then there will be a lot of blood ... bully The IVS further realized its stupidity, but not at once ... though his training in the basics of strategy cost us 20 million extra victims ... request
                        Quote: svp67
                        under very plausible slogans "for all the good, against all the bad"

                        and what now the retirement age and VAT are being raised under a different pretext? bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        but I do not like slipping into politicking. It's too much.

                        this is politics, without it there is no story ... feel
                      14. 0
                        9 July 2019 21: 08
                        Quote: ser56
                        Yet Viktor Suvorov ...

                        Rezun, and nothing else ... before Suvorov, he did NOT GROW
                        Quote: ser56
                        Churchill wrote 5 years fairly honest memoirs, we still have secrets ...

                        Yes? And what does he say about the arrival of Hess? Well, for the sake of interest
                        Quote: ser56
                        He was a wise man and wrote everything for sure - if you do not crush the reptile in the crib, then there will be a lot of blood ...

                        Yes, yes ... and at the same time I could not break Poland in the 1939 year to give corridors for the Red Army, and even to negotiate with the USSR, then I reacted so-so, sending people from the third echelon of power to the negotiations without any special authority
                        Quote: ser56
                        this is politics, without it there is no story ...

                        Politics, but not politicking
                      15. 0
                        10 July 2019 12: 29
                        Quote: svp67
                        Rezun, and not otherwise.

                        let's just say - are you sure that Rezun wrote this? bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        And what does he say about the arrival of Hess? Well, for the sake of interest

                        you take one fact out of the picture, he hasn’t written much more than that - it’s important that he wrote ...
                        Or didn’t you read? Then I envy ... hi
                        Quote: svp67
                        and at the same time could not break Poland in 1939

                        You are disappointing, Churchill has been prime minister since May 10, 1940 ... hi

                        Quote: svp67
                        as well as to the negotiation with the USSR, then he reacted so-so, having sent persons from the third echelon of power to the negotiations without special powers

                        I recommend studying the facts BEFORE writing such nonsense, otherwise you look ridiculous ... bully
                        Quote: svp67
                        Politics, but not politicking

                        I see no reason to convince you ... hi
                      16. 0
                        10 July 2019 14: 23
                        Quote: ser56
                        let's just say - are you sure that Rezun wrote this?

                        Most likely I am inclined to believe that he is. Since subsequent books were no longer so popular, the style of writing was preserved. It is unlikely that the "collective of writers" could hold out for so long
                        Quote: ser56
                        you tear one fact out of the picture

                        This is a VERY striking fact, showing that the same British have the same thing to hide, so moreover, they also shift the timing of removing the "Secret" stamp. So not only here in "Mordor" they sin with this
                        Quote: ser56
                        You are disappointing, Churchill has been prime minister since May 10, 1940 ...

                        Sori, in front of you and Winston, our Churchill. "The bream gave." But it's impossible to know everything
                      17. +1
                        10 July 2019 14: 48
                        Quote: svp67
                        This is a VERY striking fact, showing that the same British have the same thing to hide, so moreover, they also shift the timing of removing the "Secret" stamp. So not only here in "Mordor" they sin with this

                        1) This is a sin in all countries, it is in this that politics and politicking are indistinguishable. recourse
                        2) If they have a point classification. then we have total ... Until now, we count the losses and do not know what the General Staff of the Red Army worked on for 16 hours before the start of the Second World War ...
                    2. Alf
                      +2
                      6 July 2019 17: 38
                      Quote: ser56
                      12 out of 000 were arrested,

                      It should also not be forgotten that not only spies were among those arrested, but also officers who had committed criminal offenses. But no, these are all "the machinations of a bloody tyrant" ...
                      1. 0
                        8 July 2019 11: 34
                        Quote: Alf
                        but the officers

                        commanders ... middle, senior and highest ... feel
                        Quote: Alf
                        But no, these are all "the machinations of a bloody tyrant" ...

                        and there were intrigues, but earlier, in 1930, when b. tsarist officers and remained, with rare exceptions, poorly educated from non-commissioned officers and ensigns ... request
                      2. Alf
                        +1
                        8 July 2019 20: 15
                        Quote: ser56
                        remained, with rare exceptions, poorly educated from non-commissioned officers and ensigns ...

                        Not tired of repeating nonsense?
                      3. 0
                        9 July 2019 14: 39
                        Quote: Alf
                        Not tired of repeating nonsense?

                        we take the commanders of the OVO at the beginning of wars according to Wiki:
                        1) Kirponos... He studied at a parish school for a year, then for three years at a zemstvo school... In 1917 he graduated from a military paramedic school. In July 1919, he was appointed to the post of assistant head of the divisional school of red commanders (red foremen) of the 44th rifle division in Zhitomir and Glukhov, in May 1920 - to the position of assistant head of the economic team at the 2nd Kiev school of red foremen, in June 1921 - to the post of head of the economic department, and in July 1921 - to the post of assistant commissar of the school. In 1922 he graduated externally from this school. bully Everything.... request
                        2) Kuznetsov - He graduated from the zemstvo school in the village of Pankratovka, Gorki volost, Chausky district, Mogilev province, in 1912 - the Higher Primary School in Gorki, Mogilev province, in 1915 - the secondary agricultural school in Gorki. In 1916 he graduated from the school of ensigns of the 2nd Army of the Western Front.
                        Then he was sent to study and in 1926 he graduated from the Military Academy of the Red Army. M. V. Frunze. In 1930 he graduated from advanced training courses for senior officers at the Military Academy of the Red Army. M. V. Frunze.
                        The most educated in general terms, but at least his troops of his front were not surrounded ... hi
                        3) Pavlov - He graduated from the 4th grade of the parochial school, the 2nd grade school in the village of Sukhoverkhovo and externally passed the exams for the 4th grade of the gymnasium. He rose to the rank of senior non-commissioned officer. At the end of 1919 he was sent to study and in 1920 he graduated from command courses in Kostroma. From April 1920 - platoon commander.
                        He graduated from the Military Academy of the Red Army named after M. V. Frunze (studied from October 1925 to June 1928). In March 1930 he was recalled to Moscow and sent to study. He graduated from the academic courses for the technical improvement of command personnel at the Military Technical Academy (1931). After the de facto 7 classes of general education and half-year courses, immediately go to the academy! A year more courses and that's it! Chief specialist in tanks ... bully
                        4) Tyulenev In 1906 he graduated from three classes of a three-year rural school. In 1917 he graduated from the Chistopol school of ensigns. In December 1918 he was sent as a student to the Military Academy of the Red Army in Moscow. However, I had to study in fits and starts, students were often sent to the front. Since December 1920 he again studies at the military academy. After graduating from the academy in October 1922. In 1929 he graduated from the advanced training courses for senior commanding staff, and in 1930 he graduated from the courses of party-political training for single-commanders at the Military-Political Academy. N. G. Tolmacheva. bully There was a beat even by Romanians ...
                        5) Zhukov After graduating with a certificate of merit from three classes of a parochial school ... In 1911, studying in the evenings, he successfully passes exams for the full course of a city school and receives a certificate. After training as a cavalry non-commissioned officer, ... After graduating from the Ryazan cavalry courses in the fall of 1920, he was appointed platoon commander, in 1924 he was sent to the Higher Cavalry School.
                        In 1925, after completing the cavalry advanced training courses for officers in Leningrad.
                        In 1929 he graduated from the courses of the highest commanding staff of the Red Army. . And all ... is fit to be the beginning. GS Red Army ... hi

                        If it's not a secret - where did you see nonsense? All the royal non-commissioned officers, at best, lieutenants! Only one of them had a general secondary education, although later they completed some courses, and even military academies with an elementary general education! Well, the successes known at the beginning of the war ... request
                    3. 0
                      7 July 2019 05: 00
                      About the amount - no doubt
                      1. 0
                        8 July 2019 11: 32
                        Quote: 3danimal
                        About quantity -

                        OK, i.e. Do you admit that you exaggerated a little about half? bully
              2. Alf
                +1
                5 July 2019 18: 54
                Quote: 3danimal
                Now someone will start pouring in that the USA and Britain supported Hitler,

                Who watered Aloizych with gasoline until the 44th? Where does tungsten come from in Spain? Fords in the Reich were produced until the 44th. Does the name of a company like Maggi say anything?
                1. -1
                  5 July 2019 22: 52
                  Until the summer of 1941, Aloizych gave Baku gasoline to drink.
                  Less conspiracy theories. There are official delivery figures. Pay attention to food (a soldier does not hurt and needs meat, but still), aviation gasoline (99th, not produced in the Union), tractor trucks, aluminum (engines, aircraft hulls, T-34 engines).
                  1. Alf
                    +1
                    6 July 2019 17: 27
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    Until the summer of 1941, Aloizych gave Baku gasoline to drink.

                    Until the summer of the 41st, the USSR and Germany were allies, but the United States became the official opponent of the Reich in December of the 41st.
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    There are official delivery figures. Pay attention to food (a soldier does not hurt and needs meat, but still), aviation gasoline (99th, not produced in the Union), tractor trucks, aluminum (engines, aircraft hulls, T-34 engines).

                    It was about the support of the States of the Reich, do not skip off the topic and do not translate the arrows.
                    1. 0
                      7 July 2019 05: 04
                      Was there an official program of assistance to the Nazis, comparable in size to the Lend-Lease for the USSR? Proofs?
        3. 0
          4 July 2019 12: 49
          Quote: voyaka uh
          With the T-IV, it was no longer possible to do upgrades. The chassis did not pull more armor weight.

          There were all sorts of thoughts on the Shermanization of the four, about the corners and everything, but it didn’t work. This is not directly limited by weight, they wound their forehead on Hetzer very weakly. On the chassis of the four, the jagdparzer received serious armor.
      2. 0
        4 July 2019 14: 55
        Already in 1944, Germany began to experience an acute shortage of trained personnel. According to the requirements, the training of tankers took up to six months of time and it was simply not possible to quickly release the required number of tankers. The author is right when he writes about an ideal tank for a country that is losing the war, look at the battles in Western Europe after June 1944 - even the Hitler Youth was planted on Pz4 there, not at all from a good life. Briefly summarizing - your idea is absolutely correct and sound, there is a breakthrough regiment from the Tigers and a couple of escort and support regiments from fours, this is exactly what was implemented in our army and this was what led to success, but Germany could no longer do this due to the banal lack of crew.
  2. +1
    3 July 2019 18: 08
    The T-34 and KV, for all their shortcomings, were an extremely unpleasant surprise for the German armed forces. It was quite obvious that excellent visibility and ergonomics still cannot fully compensate for the relatively weak armor and armament of the "triples" and "fours". As a result, work on the "20-ton" and "30-ton" tanks was curtailed, and new tasks were set on the agenda for the German designers - as soon as possible, Henschel and Porsche firms (Porsche) they were supposed to create a heavy tank weighing 45 tons, and Daimler-Benz and MAN received an order for a medium tank weighing 35 tons.

    Hmm ... actually, the terms of reference for the future "tiger" was signed a month before the start of "Barbarossa". And then the increase in weight up to 40 tons was legalized.

    Meanwhile, on May 26, 1941, while considering with Hitler the state of affairs with the latest tanks and anti-tank guns, it was decided:
    - accelerate development, ensure the supply of at least 6 tanks by the summer of 1942;
    - arm the tank with an 88 mm gun;
    - Strengthen frontal armor up to 100 mm, on-board - up to 60 mm.

    When considering the consequences of implementing these requirements, Henschel reported an increase in tank weight to 40 tons, Wa Pruef 6 took note of this.
    In July 1941, Henschel received a contract for the assembly of three VK4501 (H) prototypes and 100 production tanks. On January 3, 1942, Krupp submitted the first armored corps to Kassel, and on April 11 the first tower. April 20, the first prototype was sent to demonstrate the Fuhrer.

    Based on the results of the review on May 26, 1941, Porsche based on the Typ 100 prepared a new draft Typ 101, aka VK4501 (P). In July 1941, Porsche received an order for the manufacture of 100 serial tanks VK4501 (P).

    As a summary of the above:
    1. The parameters of the future "Tiger" were determined before the war and did not change in the future; moreover, the deadlines for the submission of prototypes were also set before the war and maintained unchanged. Thus, not the slightest influence of the T-34 or KV on the genesis of the "Tiger" can be traced.
    2. The production of the Henschelevsky 30-ton tank was originally planned to be launched no earlier than the beginning of 1942, even before the war - that is, there is no direct influence of the T-34 or KV on the production / non-production of the VK3001;
    © D. Shein
    1. 0
      3 July 2019 18: 17
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Hmm ... actually, the terms of reference for the future "tiger" was signed a month before the start of "Barbarossa". And then the increase in weight up to 40 tons was legalized.


      Well, they "grew" to a hypertrophied "Mouse" ... So what?
      1. +2
        3 July 2019 18: 31
        Quote: Separ DNR
        Well, they "grew" to a hypertrophied "Mouse" ... So what?

        That the thesis
        new tasks were set on the agenda for German designers - in the shortest possible time, Henschel and Porsche were to create a heavy tank weighing 45 tons, and Daimler-Benz and MAN received an order for medium tank weighing 35 tons.
        wrong.
        The performance characteristics of the "Tiger" and the timing of its production were approved a month before the German tankers met with the T-34 and KV.
        1. -1
          3 July 2019 18: 34
          Quote: Separ DNR
          So what ?

          Quote: Alexey RA
          That the thesis is wrong.

          What is called: What was required to prove in the end.

          Quote: Count Suvorov
          "Russian Prussians, they always beat ..."
          1. -3
            3 July 2019 22: 56
            Behind the quotes lies the death of a fifth of the population and the fact that huge outside help was provided (including the lane at sea and the bombing of factories), which gave strength to the Union and took them away from Hitler.
            1. 0
              3 July 2019 23: 33
              Quote: 3danimal
              Behind the quotes lies the death of a fifth of the population and the fact that huge outside help was provided (including the lane at sea and the bombing of factories), which gave strength to the Union and took them away from Hitler.


              Revisionist?
              1. -2
                4 July 2019 14: 51
                Label lover?
                And in general, what changes the recognition of the contribution to the victory of help and actions of the allies?
        2. -2
          3 July 2019 18: 51
          The performance characteristics of the "Tiger" and the timing of its production were approved a month before the German tankers met with the T-34 and KV.

          However, the German fighters at the front did not want to wait, and they were urged to simply copy the T-34, and release it for the needs of the Wehrmacht.
          1. 0
            5 July 2019 15: 07
            Quote: lucul
            However, the German fighters at the front did not want to wait, and they were urged to simply copy the T-34, and release it for the needs of the Wehrmacht.

            Not certainly in that way. Those who wanted to - could well apply for the use of captured T-34 \ 76, and there were many of them - and after modernization they received them. The release of an analogue of the "thirty-four" was recognized as ineffective (they could not give such a quantity that the Soviet factories produced = to which the American ones were added); the Germans needed a tank capable of handling several similar ones (their concept has always been "quality beats quantity").
        3. NKT
          +2
          3 July 2019 21: 15
          The task for a heavy tank of the order of 30 tons was issued in 1937 to four firms: Benz, Man, Porsche and Henschel. The main reason is the Maginot Line. In May 1941, Henschel introduced the VK.36001 and VK.3602 and prepared the basis for their serial production. But the weapons department changed the task and proposed to increase the armor protection, bringing the mass of the tank to 45 tons. A similar task was given to Porsche.
    2. +3
      3 July 2019 18: 24
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Hmm ... actually, the terms of reference for the future "tiger" was signed a month before the start of "Barbarossa".

      And already in the fall of 42, the first "cats" crawled near Leningrad ...
      1. +2
        3 July 2019 23: 32
        It was a "combat test on a secondary sector of the front" before serial production.
        Unsuccessful, because the Tigers were taken away in a swamp.
        The first production Tigers received Rommel in Africa.
        A mass prepared for Kursk.
        1. +1
          4 July 2019 10: 22
          Quote: voyaka uh
          The first production Tigers received Rommel in Africa.

          The first 4 serial Tigers received a modest Mga station near Leningrad. This is the first appearance of this tank in battle. Tigers got to Africa much longer.
          1. +2
            4 July 2019 11: 35
            Quote: goose
            The first 4 serial Tigers received a modest Mga station near Leningrad. This is the first appearance of this tank in battle
            And then they used it in an attempt to release the 6th army of Paulus. “Having surrounded the German 6th Army near Stalingrad, the Soviet troops launched an offensive to the west. To stabilize the front, the German command hastily sought reinforcements, including the 503rd battalion of heavy tanks and the 2nd company of the 502nd battalion of heavy tanks. December 16 1942, the schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 received an order to prepare to be sent to the Eastern Front.The headquarters and one company announced their readiness by 20:00 on December 20. The 503rd battalion had 20 "Tigers" and 25 PzKpfw III Ausf. N (7,5 .24 cm KwK L/XNUMX).
            On January 1, the advanced units of the battalion arrived at the Proletarskaya station. On January 2, the headquarters (two Tigers and five PzKpfw IIIs) and the 1st company (nine Tigers and five PzKpfw IIIs) were already at the station. The rest of the units arrived within the next few days. By January 5, the transfer of the battalion was completed. Meanwhile, the Red Army launched a new offensive, seeking to occupy Rostov and encircle the 1st and 4th Tank Armies. The 503rd battalion was ordered to hold back the enemy advance."https://pro-tank.ru/blog/692-tanks-tigers-after-stalingrad
            “Hitler expected that the first Tiger battalion, which was being transferred to us for the front, would bring decisive success, but this turned out to be an illusion. Not to mention the fact that a lot of time passed until the battalion arrived to us, these tanks, not tested in combat conditions , were still subject to so many "childhood diseases" that at first they could not provide us with effective help.
            And this is another excerpt from the use of "Tigers" on the Eastern Front in the winter of 19421943-57964616. https://otvet.mail.ru/question/XNUMX
            "The mentioned fragment refers to December 19, when the fighting on the Aksai and Myshkovka rivers reached its climax. Thus, it becomes clear that the command of the Don Army Group was expecting the 503rd Tiger Battalion back in mid-December, and was going to join it in the offensive , carried out by the 57th tank corps (which already fought the 6th tank division), but they got stuck on the way. So, the Tigers were NOT near Stalingrad, but appeared a little later, near Rostov-on-Don. "
    3. -1
      3 July 2019 18: 33
      in fact, the terms of reference for the future "tiger" was signed a month before the start of "Barbarossa".

      Maybe someone cunning with the Germans (not the leadership) took into account the experience of the 1939 Finnish War.
      1. +4
        3 July 2019 18: 38
        Quote: lucul
        Maybe someone cunning with the Germans (not the leadership) took into account the experience of the 1939 Finnish War.

        Yes, "Tiger" was not planned against us at all - by the time the first series was released, the USSR should have been defeated for six months.
        The "Tiger" was made for a ground war with the Allies, the presence of which had thick-skinned tanks made one assume that they also had anti-tank vehicles with good armor penetration. And the Germans also had the experience of breaking through the UR: they broke through the Maginot Line in three places.
        1. +3
          3 July 2019 19: 37
          Let me ask you, what kind of "thick-skinned" Allied tanks were the Germans going to fight by June 1941? With the British, who had one wretched 40-mm cannon without HE shells at all from tank weapons? The only ready-made British tank is the Matilda. Well armored but inadequate 40mm gun and two petrol engines. Or with the Americans with their M3, who, in fact, did not need tanks.
          The most advanced tanks were possessed by ... the USSR! For that period. As well as the Germans themselves.
          1. 0
            4 July 2019 11: 09
            Quote: Jager
            Let me ask you, what kind of "thick-skinned" Allied tanks were the Germans going to fight by June 1941?

            What June 1941? Experienced "Tigers" were planned to be received only in the spring of 1942, and the pre-production - in the fall of 1942.
            By this time, one could expect that the Allies would take into account the experience of the same French campaign and roll out something more serious than the "two-pounder" and "aunt mochi" - and to protect against this "something" booking the same "four" would be insufficient ...
            That, in fact, happened - in the spring of 1942, the troops appeared in the "six-pounder", first in the anti-tank, and then in the tank version.
          2. 0
            4 July 2019 12: 58
            Quote: Jager
            Let me ask you, what kind of "thick-skinned" Allied tanks were the Germans going to fight by June 1941?

            The early T-34 in terms of armor, mobility, armament and crew friendliness roughly corresponded to Valentin KS. Reliability rather inferior.
            Quote: Jager
            Americans with their M3

            It is unlikely that the Germans at that time meant the Americans. Although the war with the United States was close, many understood this.
    4. +3
      3 July 2019 18: 41
      In a word, the Germans became hostages of their fundamental idea to create an ideal tank. While ours were riveting T-34s in tens of thousands, the Germans were unable to rivet the required number. Yes, they were able to neutralize part of our numerical superiority due to the defense factor by firing from ambushes and using the power of the guns, but the number won.
  3. +4
    3 July 2019 18: 16
    Is it correct to compare the Panther with the T-34?
    Since these tanks were designed to solve similar problems, then YES.
    "" Panther ":" T-34 "of the Wehrmacht
    For this, she did not have enough mass.
    Nevertheless, the "cat" turned out to be beautiful ...

    1. -1
      3 July 2019 19: 36
      Quote: svp67
      Nevertheless, the "cat" turned out to be beautiful ...
      No Sergey, it didn't work out. Even in your video, you can see how different the T-34 and Panther are in terms of aesthetics. Devices, yes, a radio station, yes, the rest is not a globe.
    2. 0
      3 July 2019 23: 42
      Sergey, thanks for the video. hi For the first time I saw the "Panther" on the move "live", and not on newsreels. It's still a heavy car.
    3. 0
      4 July 2019 12: 43
      Quote: svp67
      Nevertheless, the "cat" turned out to be beautiful ...

      in technology, beauty is functionality and simplicity ... Panther didn’t sin with these advantages - expensive and complicated ...
      1. 0
        4 July 2019 21: 13
        Quote: ser56
        in technology, beauty is functionality and simplicity ... Panther didn’t sin with these advantages - expensive and complicated ...
        Basically the wrong approach. Panther, as a tank of the mechanized units of Germany, was RELATIVELY complicated, but ENOUGH functional. In any case, he CORRECTED with his purpose, in the second half of WWII
        1. 0
          5 July 2019 12: 35
          Quote: svp67
          In any case, he CORRECTED with his purpose, in the second half of WWII

          everything that exists is reasonable ... bully I wrote briefly above why it did not fit the role of a medium tank, you have an opinion without arguments ... request

          Quote: svp67
          RELATIVE COMPLEX, BUT SUFFICIENTLY FUNCTIONAL

          of course relatively and enough, and therefore not beautiful ... request
          1. 0
            5 July 2019 15: 20
            Quote: ser56
            I wrote briefly above why it did not fit the role of a medium tank, you have an opinion without arguments ...

            Sorry, but what you consider "arguments" are based on erroneous knowledge. By 1944, the German Pz4 had already become obsolete, the strengthening of armor and armament led to the fact that the nose of the tank became overloaded, due to which the tank suspension could no longer cope with its duties, the front rollers wore out at an accelerated pace, and the rear one could not even touch the track web .
            So the tank required another deep modernization or replacement on the assembly line. In this regard, the "Panther" was a more progressive tank, a modern design. And many tankers consider it to be the most dangerous and powerful tank of the Germans. If the Germans had held out for another year, the Panther would have outlived all its "childhood illnesses".
            In any case, it was these tanks that were equipped with the most combat-ready tank units of the Wehrmacht and SS
            1. +2
              5 July 2019 15: 48
              Quote: svp67
              By 1944, German Pz4 had outlived itself

              like the T-34 ... request
              Quote: svp67
              because of which the suspension of the tank could no longer cope with its duties

              let's take a look at panther cymbals... which was easier to repair...
              Quote: svp67
              demanded another deep modernization

              But why was he bad with a gun in 48 feces?
              Quote: svp67
              Had the Germans been born for another year, the Panther would have gotten rid of all its "childhood diseases".

              but against it would be T-44/54 and IS-3 ... bully
              1. 0
                5 July 2019 16: 07
                Quote: ser56
                like the T-34 ...

                Yes, but it was replaced by T-34 \ 85, without much difficulty on the conveyor
                Quote: ser56
                let's take a look at panther cymbals... which was easier to repair...

                Everything is relative. I will take advantage of your "blunder" and answer that the rollers, or as you call "plates", from the outer row are MUCH easier to repair than the Pz4 rollers
                Quote: ser56
                But why was he bad with a gun in 48 feces?

                It’s not about the gun, but about the need for a deep modernization of the chassis
                Quote: ser56
                but against it would be T-44/54 and IS-3 ...

                No, by that time these tanks would not have been in sufficient quantity, but the Panther-2 and tanks of the E series were on the way.
                1. +2
                  5 July 2019 17: 13
                  Quote: svp67
                  o he was replaced by the T-34 \ 85, without much difficulty on the assembly line

                  with a mass increase of more than 4,5 tons ... and the Germans went to a new tank, twice as heavy as the T-4 and more difficult ...
                  Quote: svp67
                  or as you call "plates",

                  is it really me? bully
                  Quote: svp67
                  it is MUCH easier to repair from the outer row than Pz4 rollers

                  if not a secret - are you joking like that? bully and from the 3rd? And the frozen mud/snow between them?
                  Quote: svp67
                  It's not about the gun

                  then why put even more powerful?
                  Quote: svp67
                  and the need for deep modernization of the chassis

                  and got even more hemorrhoids - the author of the article described everything - add something I don’t see the point ...
                  Quote: svp67
                  No, by that time these tanks would not have been in sufficient quantity, but the Panther-2 was on its way

                  1) only in 1945 was released 850 T-44 feel , let me remind you that the IS-3 for the same year 1705 ...
                  2) We had a re-equipment of the T-44 with a 100mm cannon on the way ...
                  1. 0
                    5 July 2019 20: 01
                    Quote: ser56
                    if it's not a secret - are you joking like that? and from the 3rd? And the frozen mud/snow between them?

                    You know, I had to change rollers in the field on T-62, T-64, T-72 and T-80 tanks. So, I can assure you that the replacement on each of these tanks is "still fun".
                    But to the credit of the Germans, I can say that how the technical service worked in the NNA of the GDR, even now we have to study and study. I think that in the Wehrmacht it was no worse. So that "if you like to ride - love to wear sleighs".
                    The Germans did not have a crew for themselves, during the repair work, all the complex work was undertaken by the technical service and for its fruitful work, in particular, the Bergepanther armored repair and recovery vehicle (BREM) was produced.

                    This is a machine that our repair and restoration services could only dream of during the war.
                    Quote: ser56
                    in 1945 alone, 850 T-44s were produced

                    This tank is of particular importance to me, the school that I graduated from was created specifically for this machine, and when I studied, there were still people in it who remembered the very beginning and this tank.

                    It was very raw, its production quality suffered especially. Since its release was being adjusted at the restored Kharkov Tank Plant, with an acute shortage of equipment and highly qualified specialists. Which and which at that moment "by the sweat of their brow" gave the T-34 front in Nizhny Tagil and no one was going to return them to Kharkov yet
                    Winemaking
                    1944 year
                    November - 5 December - 20
                    1945 year
                    January - 20 February - 20 March - 60 April - 65 May - 75 June - 85
                    2nd half - 555
                    1946 - 718
                    1947 - 200.
                    It can be seen that the bulk of them were released after the war, when the need for mass production of the T-34 tank had already disappeared and part of the resources could be directed to the production of the T-44. But I repeat, the tank was RAW.
                    Quote: ser56
                    Let me remind you that the IS-3 for the same year 1705 ...

                    The IS-3 is a slightly different story. Having a chassis very similar to the IS-2, this tank survived the period of "childhood illnesses" more easily. But the body turned out to be "raw". Especially the way the armor is connected into a "pike nose". Already after the war, during the control shelling of mass-produced tanks, our tank specialists, with great surprise, discovered that the VLD did not break through, but as a result of the destruction of the welding, the "pike nose" was spreading.
                    So our tanks weren’t flanked by flaws.
                    1. +1
                      6 July 2019 13: 11
                      Quote: svp67
                      The Germans did not leave the crew on their own, when carrying out repair work.

                      Thanks for the photo! love However, do you not find that you answer the question about soft about warm? hi It was not very pleasant even for good repairmen to suffer with plates ... bully
                      Quote: svp67
                      This is the machine that our repair and restoration services,

                      what do you want - semi-literate people who did not understand the importance of crew training and equipment maintenance were at the head of the country and the Red Army? They counted the number of tanks ... raved about 30MK for 1000 tanks ... request
                      Quote: svp67
                      It was very raw, its production quality suffered especially.

                      like a panther ... but the forehead of the armor is quite against 75, and this is expensive ... feel
                      Quote: svp67
                      It can be seen that most of them were released after the war.

                      1) do your numbers refute mine? bully
                      2) let me remind you that you raised the topic about an additional year of the war, not me ... hi
                      Quote: svp67
                      So our tanks weren’t flanked by flaws.

                      who argues, and not write about the wunderwaffe request
                      Quote: svp67
                      but as a result of the destruction of welding

                      there was a small defect when it hit a small area, fixed ...
                      but the forehead held 88 Tiger, but the forehead of the tiger did not hold 122 soldier
                      1. 0
                        6 July 2019 13: 18
                        Quote: ser56
                        It was not very pleasant even for good repairmen to suffer with plates ...

                        My personal experience says that this operation is far from "heavenly bliss". But the fact of the matter is that we had to use tools from the spare parts and accessories of the tank being transported and improvised materials, and the Germans used special devices and tools for this. And this greatly facilitates the process of "torment". Moreover, the "plate", in terms of its mass, cannot be compared with the skating rink of the same T-34
                        Quote: ser56
                        there was a small defect when it hit a small area, fixed ...
                        but the forehead was held by the 88 Tiger,

                        just a couple of hits, after which the nose diverged, this drawback was eliminated only on the T-10 and it was he who served as a refusal to further produce the IS-3 and the transition to the IS-4, already without the "pike"
                      2. Alf
                        +1
                        6 July 2019 17: 42
                        Quote: svp67
                        just a couple of hits, after which the nose diverged,

                        Amendment. Not hits in the forehead, but hits in the REBRO, and these are two big differences.
  4. +3
    3 July 2019 18: 17
    Good article - everything is on the case and everything is interesting!
  5. +9
    3 July 2019 18: 20
    But, of course, the most important drawback of the Panther was that during the design process it turned from medium to heavy tank.

    That's the problem, the Panther hasn't turned into a heavy tank. She miraculously managed to combine the mass and maneuverability of a heavy tank with the armament and protection of a medium tank. smile
    A heavy tank must have a reservation that protects it from the sides at least from battalion anti-tank vehicles. The Panther has less armor there than the T-34.
    A heavy tank must have a weapon capable of fighting at least against field fortifications (that is, having a relatively powerful OFS). The Panther has a 75-mm anti-tank gun in the turret.
    So "Panther" remained a medium tank (or even a tank destroyer). Overfed, but average. smile
    1. 0
      3 July 2019 19: 15
      Namely the tank destroyer. As it was and was exploited. By the way, t 34-85 identity also looks more like a tank destroyer.
      1. 0
        3 July 2019 21: 55
        Not at all! T-34-85 was just a mass (28000 only until 1945 and only in the USSR), technological and cheap medium tank. Anti-tank self-propelled guns at its base, well-known - SU-100.
        1. 0
          3 July 2019 22: 03
          Cut the sturgeon. And it's ridiculous even to enter into an argument.
          1. 0
            4 July 2019 00: 01
            who are you to? Ato your comment falls out of the discussion ...
            1. +1
              4 July 2019 00: 50
              This is me Grncharu who has 28 issued T 000 34 for 85. They weren’t riveted so much until 1945, but he had 1956.
              1. -2
                4 July 2019 09: 45
                I will get better, but not much - 26000 in the USSR in total, including 46-47 years old. After 1945, the production of medium tanks in the USSR was completely insignificant, about 2700 vehicles, and in 1947 it practically froze. The production of the T-34-85 and T-44 ceased, and the T-54 (adopted for service in 1945!), which was already demanded for peacetime reliability, was hardly put on the conveyor, and only in 1949 was a high-quality installation batch of 150 so-called machines arr. 1949 Moreover, Western sources at that time gave much larger numbers, apparently, the modernization of previously produced vehicles was taken into account. Well, then the production of our former social friends has already gone. Czechs and Slovaks produced 2736 cars. Poles 1380 cars.
                1. 0
                  4 July 2019 11: 13
                  Already better. But not perfect.
        2. Alf
          +1
          3 July 2019 22: 19
          Quote: Potter
          Anti-tank self-propelled guns based on it, it is well known - SU-100.

          SU-100 tank destroyer.
    2. +1
      4 July 2019 13: 03
      Quote: Alexey RA
      combine the mass and maneuverability of a heavy tank with the armament and protection of a medium tank

      If we look at the medium tanks of the 45th year, we will see three panthers (German, English and American) and one T-44, which was just out of step. The fact that Cent was not medium, but universal infantry-cruising, and Persh pretended to be heavy, does not change matters.
    3. 0
      5 July 2019 10: 54
      Quote: Alexey RA
      A heavy tank must have a weapon capable of fighting at least against field fortifications (that is, having a relatively powerful OFS). The Panther has a 75-mm anti-tank gun in the turret.
      So "Panther" remained a medium tank (or even a tank destroyer). Overfed, but average.


      The T-34-76 gun was certainly weaker. Although during the fight against German anti-tank guns and firing points, no large differences between these guns were noticed.
      I mean the comparison with the "panther" tool.
  6. +1
    3 July 2019 18: 34
    Andrey, I hope that in one of the upcoming articles you will compare the characteristics of the 85 mm cannon of the T34-85 tank, with the cannons on the Panthers! good
    1. +1
      3 July 2019 18: 43
      Quote: Thrifty
      Andrey, I hope that in one of the upcoming articles you will compare the characteristics of the 85 mm cannon of the T34-85 tank, with the cannons on the Panthers.

      S-53 must be compared with 8,8 Tigers
      Caliber one, origin too .. from anti-aircraft guns ..
      And 76mm panthers from the British .. I don’t remember the name .. they put them on their Shermans ..
      1. -1
        3 July 2019 19: 25
        KwK 42 is a purely German development. Her clones were put on the Shermans, and after the war.
        1. 0
          3 July 2019 19: 52
          Quote: AS Ivanov.
          wK 42 is a purely German development.

          DUK I did not say the opposite .. But to compare the Panther 76mm cannon with the British Ordnance QF 17-pounder, and not with the Soviet C-53.
        2. Alf
          +1
          3 July 2019 20: 11
          Quote: AS Ivanov.
          her clones

          Which ones?
          1. +1
            4 July 2019 09: 02
            The French 75-mm SA49 on Israeli Shermans, they started to install 105s later.
      2. 0
        3 July 2019 23: 35
        17 pounds
  7. 0
    3 July 2019 18: 36
    And the combination of a difficult-to-repair design with its well-known capriciousness obviously led to the fact that the Panther, in fact, turned out to be not a very suitable tank for maneuver warfare, for deep tank raids.

    So it is, the Germans got a mobile pillbox, and not a war chariot, like the T-lll.
    1. +2
      3 July 2019 18: 40
      Quote: lucul
      So the Germans got a mobile pillbox, and not a war chariot, like the T-lll.

      Rather, a tank destroyer with a rotating turret and good frontal protection. What you need to reflect countless hordes russian panzer. smile
      1. +6
        3 July 2019 18: 51
        Quote: Alexey RA
        What you need to repel the countless hordes of Russian panzers.

        Yeah ... you’ve started to grow a panzer by the age of 45 with calibers of 100 and 122mm ... and even a 85mm S-53 for a cat was already dangerous in the frontal profile ..
        In general, the battles at Ballaton showed who is where .. The weakened by the offensive battles of the Red Army were able to grind Panzer fist more powerful than it was on the Arc ..
        1. 0
          3 July 2019 22: 06
          Quote: dvina71
          In general, the battles at Ballaton showed who is where .. The weakened by the offensive battles of the Red Army were able to grind Panzer fist more powerful than it was on the Arc ..

          Well, the situation there, unlike Kursk, was greatly simplified by as many as 3 factors: firstly, the Red Army’s anti-tank weapons became different, secondly, the allies had stable air supremacy, and thirdly, the Germans made a big mistake with the choice of the offensive site and they really Once again, bad luck with the weather.

          Well, dear Andrey created a simply wonderful analytical article, read it with great pleasure.
          1. +2
            4 July 2019 10: 53
            Quote: Warrior2015
            greatly simplified as many as 3 factors

            Mostly the Germans had tanks of a new type ..
            They themselves chose a place, and it was not so bad as the swamps of Belarus. And to the same beginning of spring .. frozen ground .. just for the onset of heavy equipment.
            Almost all the time of the German offensive, the weather was for them. Low cloud cover limited the use of aviation on them. In repelling the German offensive, only units that did not receive full replenishment were accepted.
            But something went wrong. The experience of the anti-tank warfare of the Red Army and the presence of anti-tank guns of calibers over 85mm put an end to the north of the kulak. Especially the Su-100 .., which didn’t matter at all what tank was in front of them.
            1. 0
              5 July 2019 15: 01
              Quote: dvina71
              They chose the place themselves and it was not as bad as the swamps of Belarus.
              In general, we compared Balaton with Kursk, and not with Belarus. And the place for the use of tanks was not so hot (the fields and copses of Kursk are much better for tank battles, the infantry has nothing to cling to, except for earthen fortifications and artificial ditches)

              Quote: dvina71
              And besides, the beginning of spring .. frozen ground .. just for the onset of heavy equipment.
              So it was planned, but in fact the early spring - and everything was slackened, the tanks began to get bogged down.

              Quote: dvina71
              Almost all the time the onset of the Germans was the weather for them. Low clouds limited the use of aviation on them
              Low cloudiness on some days only more or less equalized the chances, but basically the complete dominance of the Allies in the sky no longer allowed the Luftwaffe to provide even more or less tolerable support for the advancing columns near Balaton (unlike Kursk, where the Red Army Air Force, of course, already there was a great superiority (in reality, and not in figures of exaggerated statistics), but the Luftwaffe was, although already shabby, but still "in color").

              For the rest, I agree.
        2. 0
          3 July 2019 23: 26
          85-ka in the forehead could threaten the Panther only at close range. They had not yet mastered the production of guns of this caliber with a high initial speed, and the quality of the shells was inferior (in equal calibers). Hence 85mm on the T-34 (instead of 76mm gain) and 122mm on the IS-2.
          1. 0
            4 July 2019 09: 54
            Quote: 3danimal
            85-ka in the forehead could threaten the Panther only at close range.


            Argue with a professional historian.
            1. 0
              4 July 2019 15: 11
              There is data on armor penetration of S-53 shells.
              And for a slope angle of 60', they are very likely to hit sloped 85mm armor only from a distance of less than 1000m (at 1000 - not yet, only by repeated hits in a weakened area), confidently - only from 500m or less.
              7,5cm KwK-42 of the T-5 tank hit 34 units in any part at any (2000+ m) distance. That is, in an oncoming tank battle, large unrequited losses are inevitable when approaching the effective fire range of the T-34-85. Despite the fact that the share of the T-34 with a 76mm gun made up most of the fleet in 43-44.
              The cheapness of people and the mass production of 34-k helped out.
              The following is not clear: why was the frontal armor not reinforced, at least up to 60mm?
              1. 0
                4 July 2019 18: 31
                Quote: 3danimal
                There is data on armor penetration of S-53 shells.

                There is a fact .. from Lisuva, the Panthers who approached from the rear left almost half-hearted .., Penetration of the S-53 at 1500m is just on the verge for the Panther's air force. You forget that the distance of a direct shot for the BS BR-365k is up to 900m and there is already a simple geometry .. a projectile at such a distance flies into the tank from above, let's add normalization .. and there is no longer any talk of a 60g slope ..
                1. -1
                  4 July 2019 19: 05
                  Halved Panthers at what losses of the Red Army? What was the balance of power originally? Only the T-34-85 took part in repelling the attack?
                  Remember that any hit from Kwk-42 gave penetration and, with a high probability, failure.
                  1. +1
                    4 July 2019 19: 06
                    Quote: 3danimal
                    Half Panthers with what losses of the Red Army?

                    I gave you a video .. watch from 19.20. The data of this battle is documented and confirmed.
                2. 0
                  4 July 2019 19: 06
                  It's not clear where you're getting this data from. According to GAU reports, the 85mm cannon did not pierce the upper frontal plate of the early Panther even at close range, it did not even penetrate from a 122mm cannon from a distance of more than 1000m with a sharp-headed projectile, with strong luck, plate joints and weakened zones could be pierced near the hatch of the driver and machine gun. The lower frontal sheet made its way from distances up to 500m, the forehead of the tower up to 1000m. Of course, the quality of the armor of the late Panthers fell somewhat, but the upper frontal plate for the 85mm still remained invulnerable, and it was not at all accidental that 100 and 122mm guns were chosen for the heavy tank and self-propelled guns.
                  1. 0
                    4 July 2019 19: 33
                    Quote: vetal1942
                    he didn’t even make his way out of a 122 mm gun from a distance of over 1000 m with a pointed head projectile,

                    Wow .. from a distance of 1500m this projectile formed wonderful holes in the Panther's VLD ..
                    122 mm 1500m
                    1. 0
                      4 July 2019 19: 41
                      This is the upper frontal sheet of the Royal Tiger, photo from the report of the GAU of the Red Army, 1944, after the battles at the Sandomierz bridgehead) And by the way, this 122mm sheet pierced the 150mm sharp-headed projectile only at the joints, in the photo the result after hitting two dozen shells of various calibers.
                      1. 0
                        4 July 2019 19: 49
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        This is the top frontal leaf of the Royal Tiger

                        Ok .. I punched a D25t for a tiger, but there is no Panther .. I agree .. And this?

                        1400m.
                      2. 0
                        4 July 2019 19: 55
                        And this is from the report of August 1944, the upper 80mm frontal sheet of the late Panther, a D-25T shell made holes from 2500m meters and this was not even the limit) I specifically wrote the word "early" when the sheet was thicker (85mm) and its quality was completely others.
                      3. -1
                        4 July 2019 19: 59
                        Quote: vetal1942
                        projectile from D-25T

                        Which and shells? BR-471 or BR-471B
                      4. 0
                        4 July 2019 20: 11
                        It’s hard to say, they both fired. 2500m is for the BR-471B, it showed noticeably better armor penetration, but this shell went into the series only since 1945. In general, according to the shelling of December 1943 in Kubinka, it is written in black and white that the forehead of the Panther’s hull does not penetrate with a 85mm d-5t tank gun shell from any distance.
                  2. -1
                    4 July 2019 19: 54
                    Quote: vetal1942
                    According to GAU reports, the 85mm gun did not pierce the upper frontal sheet of the early Panther even at point-blank range

                    It was a D5T gun .. with Is-1 and Su-85. On the T-34-85, these guns were only on a few hundred of the first versions., The main gun was the S-53, a converted anti-aircraft gun.
                    1. 0
                      4 July 2019 20: 13
                      In ballistics, it is completely identical to D-5t)
    2. +1
      3 July 2019 18: 45
      A typical German tank of the peacetime turned out, the further development of the ideology - "Leopard" It was not in vain that during the presentation it was shown together with the "Panther"
      1. 0
        4 July 2019 15: 12
        Hardly. Leopard - MBT, this is a different class.
    3. +1
      3 July 2019 18: 46
      Quote: lucul
      So the Germans got a mobile pillbox, and not a war chariot, like the T-lll.

      Fri .. with a turret ..
  8. +17
    3 July 2019 19: 07
    When I come across a statement that the Panther was a medium tank, I send the author of the words to Kubinka, to the BTT museum for comparison with the same T-34/85. This "Panther" could somehow be disguised only as a hut of average prosperity. In life, the T-V is even more huge than in the comparison pictures. The same "Tiger", for all its severity and brutality, looks more modest.
    It was necessary for the German generals to send Guderian away and curtail the release of the T-IV, then the Wehrmacht weapons program would be completely frustrated to our joy))
    I suspect that saboteurs were sitting in the midst of German engineers, because I can’t explain the complicated, unrepairable and heavy running gear scheme. What prevented it from being made an analogue with HF, the perfection of which was even recognized by the Americans (God forgive me, then only Italians with the British were worse in matters of BTT).
    The second question, why it was impossible to combine the engine and gearbox into a single unit, reducing the height of the tank?

    We have to admit that throughout the war the Germans had a terrible mess in terms of armored vehicles nomenclature. If a respected audience will be interested, I will write an article about it.
    1. -4
      3 July 2019 19: 22
      Quote: Jager
      The second question, why it was impossible to combine the engine and gearbox into a single unit, reducing the height of the tank?

      Looks like balancing. The T-34's turret is shifted forward to compensate for the weight of the engine and transmission. At the Panther, the gravity was stretched over the hull .. the solution, of course ... not the best ..
      1. 0
        3 July 2019 19: 27
        This is not an answer. In this form, "Panther" would have turned out to be a completely different machine.
      2. +6
        3 July 2019 19: 37
        Quote: dvina71
        The t-34 tower is shifted forward to compensate for the weight of the engine and transmission

        T-34 simply didn’t have the opportunity to put the tower in another place, the costs of the rear engine-transmission layout with a longitudinal engine arrangement are a legacy of BT
        1. +1
          3 July 2019 19: 50
          Quote: mark1
          T-34 simply didn’t have the opportunity to put the tower in another place, the costs of the rear engine-transmission layout with a longitudinal engine arrangement are a legacy of BT

          Why, it was. There was no war, in KB 183 of the plant, a layout with a transverse engine and torsion bars was already being worked out, instead of springs in the suspension system. That is, what later grew into the T-44
          1. +2
            3 July 2019 20: 19
            Quote: svp67
            Do not be war, in KB 183 of the plant the layout with a transverse engine arrangement was already being worked out

            Well, let's say - there was a proposal, but it was not worked out, there was a variant with a longitudinal arrangement of the engine in development - the T-34M, the future T-43. there were many options, periodically our designers tried to adopt the German scheme with a front-mounted transmission - the search process did not stop. All these schemes have been known almost since the 1st World War. for example, the MS-1 had a transverse engine, unlike the Renault FT17, the Italians used gearboxes as turning mechanisms ...
      3. -3
        3 July 2019 20: 26
        Quote: dvina71
        Apparently balancing. The t-34 tower is shifted forward to compensate for the weight of the engine and transmission.
        Should the T-34 fly or swim?
        1. +1
          3 July 2019 20: 28
          Quote: sabakina
          Should the T-34 fly or swim?

          No, but at that time he definitely shot from a stop. With proper balancing, the tank did not peck during sharp braking and quickly stabilized, which allowed it to shoot faster.
        2. 0
          4 July 2019 04: 48
          Quote: sabakina
          Should the T-34 fly or swim?

          Do not swing the crew members much in the fighting compartment
      4. +1
        4 July 2019 04: 19
        Looks like balancing. The T-34's turret is shifted forward to compensate for the weight of the engine and transmission. At the Panther, the gravity was stretched over the hull .. the solution, of course ... not the best ..

        What??? At least understand a little in the mat part before writing something like this ...
      5. +1
        4 July 2019 10: 27
        Quote: dvina71
        The t-34 tower is shifted forward to compensate for the weight of the engine and transmission.

        No, the turret "slid" forward due to the large length of the V-2 engine. Still, 12 cylinders + transmission layout features. Well, a strongly inclined rear sheet shifted the engine forward.
        1. 0
          4 July 2019 13: 03
          Quote: goose
          No, the turret "slid" forward due to the large length of the V-2 engine. Still 12 cylinders

          more precisely from the dimension of the engine 6 "and the long-nosed layout (everything from the Spanish-Suiza)
          Maybach at 13cm dimension gave noticeably more power than V-2, that's the secret - why the Germans did not put diesels in the tank
          1. 0
            5 July 2019 21: 27
            Quote: A1845
            Maybach at 13cm dimension gave out noticeably more power than B-2,

            You probably mean liter capacity? Do you compare diesel with gasoline? What about the torque?
            Quote: A1845
            and long-nosed layout (everything from spanish suisas)

            What's wrong with the nose? How to blunt it?
            1. 0
              8 July 2019 09: 21
              Quote: mark1
              You probably mean liter capacity?

              no, common
              1. 0
                8 July 2019 09: 28
                Then what does the reference to the dimension of the cylinders have to do with it? But in any case, the liter (and overall) power of a gasoline engine is higher than that of a diesel engine (especially the case for the 30s and 40s).
        2. 0
          5 July 2019 14: 40
          Quote: goose
          Well, a strongly inclined rear sheet shifted the engine forward.

          If there is a gearbox under the inclined sheet, then how will it prevent you from moving the gear back? And where are you going to checkpoint? On top of the engine?
          1. 0
            8 July 2019 10: 29
            Quote: Tima62
            If there is a gearbox under the inclined sheet, then how will it prevent you from moving the gear back? And where are you going to checkpoint? On top of the engine?

            I climbed into the engine compartment of the T-34, there is a lot of space in the back under the inclined armor plate.
      6. 0
        4 July 2019 15: 17
        But the consequence of the front location of the tower is the mechanical drive hatch in the VLD. A kind of window with increased vulnerability.
        I saw it close: it is not wedge-shaped at all (as I first thought), it rests on the 10 mm edge of the hatch itself and 10 mm edge of the VLD.
        1. 0
          5 July 2019 21: 31
          Quote: 3danimal
          But the consequence of the front location of the tower is the driver's hatch in the VLD.

          And the suspension shaft interfered with the transfer to the board
          1. +1
            6 July 2019 09: 04
            This defect was removed only in the T-44. Unfortunately, 34 matches went on until the end of the war with the “hole” in the VLD.
    2. +3
      3 July 2019 19: 33
      There are a lot of questions, go look into their heads, German engineers... The only thing. what can be said with certainty - the gloomy German genius was not looking for easy ways.
      Quote: Jager
      If a respected audience is interested, I will write an article

      We are waiting with, I like to discuss on the verge of obstruction.
    3. 0
      3 July 2019 22: 08
      Quote: Jager
      We have to admit that throughout the war the Germans had a terrible mess in terms of armored vehicles nomenclature. If a respected audience will be interested, I will write an article about it.

      Of course, write, the Deutsche Wehrmacht was probably the most famous "trophy team" of the Second World War.
    4. +3
      4 July 2019 07: 17
      Quote: Jager
      If a respected audience is interested, I will write an article about it.

      Why not? Personally, I would read with pleasure
    5. +2
      4 July 2019 09: 19
      Yeah, the first thought about Panther in Kubinka - well, the bandura !!! How big he is! Even Is is not so perceived.
      1. 0
        4 July 2019 13: 05
        Quote: Ural-4320
        first thought about Panther in Kubinka - well, bandura !!!

        when the military instructor drove us to the Cuban in school, for some reason it was the tiger who was especially impressed, it’s somehow threatening when you stand right in front of it ..
        1. +1
          4 July 2019 13: 51
          A bummer came out with the Tiger that year - it was dragged to Patriot Park, as well as many other equipment. The Cuban was half empty.
      2. 0
        4 July 2019 15: 19
        By the way, it’s interesting: why is the IS-2 with greater / equal armor protection noticeably lighter than the T-6? So big is the difference in internal volumes?
        1. 0
          4 July 2019 15: 24
          So the transmission of weight gives how much. And the motor can weigh mentally.
        2. 0
          5 July 2019 21: 39
          1,5 times - 12 cubes against 18 for the "Tiger"
    6. +3
      4 July 2019 11: 46
      Quote: Jager
      When I come across a statement that the Panther was a medium tank, I send the author of the words to Kubinka, to the BTT museum for comparison with the same T-34/85. This "Panther" could somehow be disguised only as a hut of average prosperity.

      Others secondary the German designers for the Panzerwaffe did not have tanks. smile
      Well, there cannot be a heavy tank that makes its way into the side from an ordinary battalion "forty-five". And who, with his OFS, cannot make out the field fortification.

      The classification of tanks is generally a complicated thing. How do you like light tank with armor 60 mm? wink
      Quote: Jager
      What prevented it from being made an analogue with HF, the perfection of which was even recognized by the Americans

      Yeah ... the HF was so perfect that it had to be lightened at first, and then replaced with a new tank, in which only the rinks remained from the HF.
      If the Germans made an analogue of KV, ours could only rejoice. Overloaded suspension and transmission (designed for 40 tons), engine cooling system boiling at 24 km / h, turret drive designed for four times less weight (taken from T-28), wedging brakes, air filter that requires cleaning after 1,5 hours march ... a song, not a tank. sad
      1. 0
        4 July 2019 21: 01
        I spoke only about the running TYPE KV.
        And I am surprised by the absolutely "childish" diseases of our armored vehicles. The same miserable filter on the V-2, a fan on the roof of the T-34 turret, mounted above the shutter for a 45-mm gun, and other trifles, the elimination of which did not require much effort.
        KV was "Tiger" of the 41st. And it was generally developed for a different strategy, and not for parrying the blitzkrieg tank wedges.
      2. 0
        5 July 2019 21: 41
        Quote: Alexey RA
        and then generally replace it with a new tank, in which only rollers remained from the KV.

        The rollers were also replaced with light ones.
    7. 0
      4 July 2019 15: 42
      Centurion and Pershing are also heavy tanks?
    8. +1
      4 July 2019 20: 34
      Quote: Jager
      If a respected audience is interested, I will write an article about it


      I would love to read it! And I think I'm not alone.
  9. 0
    3 July 2019 19: 18
    I just read the title of the article and realized that it’s not worth further reading. Sorry, dear author! If anyone is to be awarded such a term, it’s PzIV. Sorry, did not mean to offend. hi
    1. +1
      3 July 2019 19: 59
      So they wanted to make the Panther the main tank of the Wehrmacht, but they did not master it.
    2. +3
      4 July 2019 07: 18
      Quote: Nycomed
      I just read the title of the article and realized that it was not worth reading any further. Sorry, dear author! If anyone really and reward this term, so it PzIV.

      Didn't notice the question mark in the title? :))))
      1. 0
        4 July 2019 14: 18
        Sorry generously, did not notice. negative
    3. +1
      4 July 2019 13: 07
      Quote: Nycomed
      I realized that you should not read further

      all the same it was worth reading first, dear
  10. +2
    3 July 2019 19: 19
    I wonder why we so often speak of the German genius as gloomy?
    It turned out to be a completely "fun" tank ... if it is painted appropriately!
    1. +5
      3 July 2019 19: 55
      Quote: rocket757
      I wonder why we so often speak of the German genius as gloomy?

      Behind Block...
      ... we love everything - and the heat of cold numbers,
      And the gift of divine visions,
      Everything is clear to us - and the sharp Gallic meaning,
      И gloomy german genius...

      "Scythians"
      1. +2
        3 July 2019 20: 18
        And you have to argue with the classics, otherwise we'll get stuck in the houses!
    2. +2
      3 July 2019 23: 47
      Quote: rocket757
      It turned out to be a completely "fun" tank ... if it is painted appropriately!

      This is please to the Indians))).
      1. 0
        4 July 2019 06: 49
        There is generally a solid holiday .... and a lot of cheerful spiritual!
  11. +6
    3 July 2019 19: 19
    About the weight. Do not forget the simple fact that finding a bridge withstand 25-30 tons is easier than 45 and more. That is, even moving in the rear (!!!) is already a problem.
    Somewhere on the Internet I read that year in 1943, on one of the fronts, we formed part of the Panthers from trophies. And the memories of those who fought on them.
    The gunner is pleased with everything, he hits a handkerchief from 900 meters. A nightmare for a driver - there were no details. Marching tasks were cut for them as for the T-34, but they constantly frustrated, the commander almost fell under the tribunal. Forcing the river in its rear looked like this. If the bridge holds 45 tons - approx. if not ... A ford is being sought and the commander is going to his colleagues for the T-34. Next, the best panther rides across the ford, sits down there, and is pulled out by the T-34, which crosses the river along the bridge. The T-34 comes back, and the panther that crossed the river pulls everyone else out. In general, solid bathing for personnel, and the temperature is not always beach :( In the end, it dawned on the command that the panther was a very heavy medium tank and used it accordingly. They didn’t like the panther at tank repair plants. VERY.
    Final: in the end, the materiel melted away, and then everyone was transferred to the T-34.
    1. 0
      3 July 2019 19: 49
      Quote: Not the fighter
      Somewhere on the Internet I read that year in 1943, on one of the fronts, we formed part of the Panthers from trophies. And the memories of those who fought on them.

      Oh, didn't you read it! Well, what parts of the captured "Panthers" in 43!
    2. +1
      3 July 2019 20: 14
      For some reason it seems to me that the German tank repair factories did not like the panther either. VERY. Just twenty years ago, I watched on "Discovery" as the British restored the "panther", which was taken from some Polish river. Damn, these guys need to put a monument!
  12. +1
    3 July 2019 19: 26
    If I'm not mistaken, the panthers were specially equipped with night vision devices for ambushes. Like five tanks group. One with a special searchlight, the rest with special night sights.
    1. Alf
      +2
      3 July 2019 20: 20
      Quote: garri-lin
      If I'm not mistaken, the panthers were specially equipped with night vision devices for ambushes. Like five tanks group. One with a special searchlight, the rest with special night sights.

      You are a little wrong.
      Yes, the Panthers were equipped with a night vision device, as many as 63 vehicles.
      But ! The device installed on the TANK was intended for night driving. The commander looked at him and gave commands to the driver. The second option was for combat operations at night, but there an infrared searchlight was installed on the Ganomag, and the Panther's gunner used a passive IR sight.
      1. +2
        3 July 2019 21: 26
        Thanks for the clarification. I met that the infrared spotlight was on the command tank.
        1. Alf
          +2
          3 July 2019 22: 08
          Quote: garri-lin
          Thanks for the clarification.

          Not at all, always happy to help! hi
  13. 0
    3 July 2019 20: 00
    Checkpoint dismantling
  14. +6
    3 July 2019 20: 54
    Once, in a conversation with an uncle who fought on T-34-76, I asked which battle I remember more or how proud he was (for prescription, I don’t remember exactly - fifty years have passed)?
    He thought and said: “I knocked out the Panther in the oncoming battle. I hit him four times out of six shots, and he only hit me two out of four, killed the gunner and the loader. The German did not catch fire, but got up and did not shoot again "He started shooting from a kilometer, and I from five hundred meters. In the first 500, he hit me twice."
  15. -6
    3 July 2019 21: 04
    I agree in many respects, but in many respects I do not agree with the author! On the arc of penetration in the forehead, not a single pontierka received! For the tactics of retreating backwards? Well so ours wrote the same thing. The gun really pierced the is-2 at a distance of 2500. We are watching the Kursk and the GBTU report! By the middle of 44 years, a completely reliable unit. Under the Balaton at night, using night sights, 2 or 3 of our divisions were rolled out. Glory to all the saints that the sky was already ours!
    1. Alf
      +3
      3 July 2019 22: 13
      Quote: dgonni
      The gun really pierced the IS-2 at a distance of 2500. We look at the Kursk and the GBT report!

      Is it where the IS-2 was not in nature yet?
      At 2.5 km, the KVK-42 penetrated theoretically 89 and 106 mm. In what place could it penetrate the IS-2?
    2. +3
      4 July 2019 07: 21
      Quote: dgonni
      The gun really punched IS-2 at a distance of 2500.

      Fantastic.
      1. Alf
        0
        4 July 2019 19: 40
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: dgonni
        The gun really punched IS-2 at a distance of 2500.

        Fantastic.

        No, WOT.
    3. +2
      4 July 2019 10: 31
      Quote: dgonni
      The gun actually pierced the IS-2 at a distance of 2500

      No, I didn’t penetrate, real tests revealed full protection in the frontal projection up to about 800 m. The forehead of the hull did not penetrate almost point-blank, only the tower.
  16. +2
    3 July 2019 21: 24
    What comes to mind:
    1) Gasoline Maybach gave out 700 l / s, V-2 gave out 500 l / s. But! The diesel engine produced much more torque and, taking into account the difference in the weight of the cars, as well as the losses in the much more complex undercarriage of the Panther, the T-34 looks much more preferable.
    2) In the article, there is always a comparison with the 76-mm T-34 gun. But while the "Panther" was brought to mind, the T-34 received its legal 85-mm. And in the S-53, the mass of the projectile already reached 9,54 kg with a maximum muzzle velocity of 1050 m / s.
    3) To be honest, a comparison of the "Panther" with the T-34 can only be done in relation to the time of signing the TK by the Wehrmacht. In 1944, when the configuration of the Panther settled down, I would already compare it with the IS-2, as a weight classmate. There both weight and speed are commensurate. But the 122mm shot of the IS-2 was deadly in any projection of the German, with the best armor of the IS. Yes, and the quality of the armor of the German from the 44th year began to fall rapidly.
    1. Alf
      +4
      3 July 2019 22: 14
      Quote: Berkut24
      And with the S-53, the mass of the shell reached 9,54 kg. at a maximum muzzle velocity of 1050 m / s.

      The ZIS-S-53 armor-piercing projectile had a mass of 9,2 kg and an initial velocity of 792 m/s.
      1. 0
        4 July 2019 11: 15
        I proceeded from the entire range of ammunition.
        1. Alf
          +3
          4 July 2019 19: 35
          Quote: Berkut24
          I proceeded from the entire range of ammunition.

          You give the mass of the projectile high-explosive fragmentation, and the initial velocity - sub-caliber.
          You must be more modest ...
          1. +2
            4 July 2019 19: 48
            I'm out of tasks. T-34 and "Panther" are incomparable in almost everything. Including in the tasks that were set before them. The T-34 is, in fact, a raid vehicle that was supposed to be thrown into a gap. And from the second half of 1943, she worked as intended precisely as a medium tank for a breakthrough and a subsequent raid behind enemy lines. And he has the appropriate range of ammunition. In the 41st there was a small series with a 57mm gun, which was not bad against tanks, but useless against fortifications and infantry. Therefore, 76mm and 85mm thirty-fours are a universal tool for the above tasks.
            But "Panther" actually solved anti-tank missions in mobile defense. And its gun, along with the ammunition, is sharpened for this very purpose. It makes no sense to compare completely different tanks, which have in common only the caliber of one of the gun modifications. Yes, I have indicated the limit values ​​for the T-34 gun without specifying the ammunition itself. But this is a different gun for other tasks.
            1. Alf
              +1
              4 July 2019 19: 51
              Quote: Berkut24
              It makes no sense to compare completely different tanks, which are related only by the caliber of one of the gun modifications. Yes, I indicated the limit values ​​​​for the T-34 gun, without indicating the ammunition itself. But this is a different gun for other tasks.

              I agree with you on diversity. But still, you shouldn’t wag, talk about one projectile, and bring its data. Otherwise, you can bring NUR S-5 and Hellfire, because both are in service with helicopters.
              1. 0
                5 July 2019 10: 53
                There may be one projectile, but with completely different characteristics. The "Panther" has a full-time sub-caliber / armor-piercing projectile, while the T-34 for use "if suddenly", its ammunition load also changed depending on the task. But the quality of the German armor-piercing decreased by the end of the war due to a chronic shortage of the same tungsten. The core often simply crumbled when it hit the armor. Here, every month since the middle of the 44th, there are new incidents in comparison. All these tables for comparison are only theoretical, the practice turned out to be different.
                Here, the actual classmate of the "Panther" - our IS-2 did not have a sub-caliber / armor-piercing at all. For a full-time high-explosive demolished the tower to the German as such. The caliber is larger, the initial speed is less. You can't compare the incomparable. Everything happened according to the situation. And the IS-2, in general, according to the main task, is a tank for an assault, and not for anti-tank duels (this, by the way, is indicated by its rate of fire). And a high explosive - for all cases at once.
                1. Alf
                  0
                  5 July 2019 18: 37
                  Quote: Berkut24
                  our IS-2 was not at all sabot / armor-piercing.

                  Quote: Berkut24
                  And a high explosive - for all cases at once.


                  There was no sub-caliber, and the armor-piercing one was regularly included in the BC.
                2. Alf
                  +1
                  5 July 2019 19: 10
                  Quote: Berkut24
                  The "Panther" has a standard AP / AP shell,

                  PK shells for the PAK-40 were fired during the entire war 48 thousand.
                  For 88-17 thousand.
                  There is no data on KVK-42, but hardly more. That is, theoretically, he was, but how often he was in Panther's BC is a big question. Even if we take the same 48 thousand and divide by 6000 Panthers, it turns out that 8 shells went out to one tank. From this it is necessary to subtract a certain number of shells shot at the firing ranges and some stuck in warehouses. So, 8 PCs of shells per tank for 2 years of war is not very dense.
    2. +1
      4 July 2019 07: 22
      Quote: Berkut24
      To be honest, the comparison of the "Panther" with the T-34 can only be done in relation to the moment when the TZ was signed by the Wehrmacht.

      So it did something like this. Well, then, T-34-76 still had to fight with panthers
      1. 0
        4 July 2019 13: 40
        When they fought, they were no longer classmates.
      2. Alf
        +1
        8 July 2019 20: 28
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And then, the T-34-76 still had to fight with the panthers

        So the T-34-76 also encountered the Tigers, so what, to compare them too?
    3. 0
      4 July 2019 13: 13
      Quote: Berkut24
      Gasoline Maybach gave out 700 l / s, V-2 gave out 500 l / s

      with a smaller dimension, respectively, the reserved volume and centering with such a diesel engine would go to the forest
  17. 0
    3 July 2019 21: 51
    Quote: rocket757
    I wonder why we so often speak of the German genius as gloomy?
    It turned out to be a completely "fun" tank ... if it is painted appropriately!

    This is the whole problem: the product of a joyful genius, no matter how beautiful it is, it looks the same. And here: painted - and she began to play ...
  18. 0
    3 July 2019 22: 12
    Why is the link at the end of the article "Top of the thirty-four" with a 76,2-mm cannon, or T-34 of the 1943 model against the T-IVH "opens the article on the link - ".......... . Return to brigades"?
  19. +3
    3 July 2019 22: 13
    Thank you, Andrew!
    As always very interesting.
    But I don’t agree about diesel: I recently read a very interesting and convincing review of diesel affairs in the Reich (now I was looking for it, but I couldn’t find it :-(): there was a lot of diesel, including synthetic, but it seems that the Panzerwaffe has a long time were under the excessive influence of the company "Maybach" (let's say so neatly), which had a good gasoline engine. But the Daimler diesel engine was "pushed in" for too long. But by the end of the War, dieselization of the Panzerwaffe went on - fortunately, this did not solve anything .. .
    1. 0
      5 July 2019 08: 01
      Quote: PilotS37
      there was a lot of diesel

      Well, how much? There was never a lot of fuel in the Reich. At the same time, in Germany there was ... let's say, the established structure for the production of diesel fuel and gasoline. So, purely theoretically, in terms of balance, subject to a change in the structure of production, yes, it would be possible to provide the Wehrmacht and diesel fuel. But for this, it would be necessary to change the structure of production, that is, in fact, to bring part of the production capacity to idle time and strengthen the rest. And in 1943, when Hitler realized the need to transfer the economy to a military footing, doing this was ... to put it mildly, suboptimal.
      That is, if Germany initially would have preferred to put diesel engines on tanks, everything would be fine, but a sharp change from gasoline to diesel created problems for them.
      1. +1
        5 July 2019 09: 58
        And this is also true, but still, to say that the situation with the choice of motors was uncontested is not entirely correct: there was an alternative, but it was simply ignored for a very long time - for various reasons.
        So she died in agony, not recognized or noticed by anyone ...
  20. 0
    3 July 2019 22: 13
    Among other shortcomings, the author forgot to mention the gasoline engine. More precisely, it burned like a match, not even in battle, but simply on the march. There are cases when, when marching through the forest, needles that fell on top of the engine compartment caused a fire. Yes, and other shortcomings really did not allow the panther to turn around normally, so when marching into the combat zone, from 40 to 60% of the tanks went out of order. But on the other hand, in defense it was something, hidden in caponiers, they clicked 34s like seeds without much harm to themselves.
    1. +1
      4 July 2019 06: 52
      This is not to the engine, the problem was in the fuel pump, more precisely in its not very good location
    2. 0
      5 July 2019 05: 44
      Which proves once again that it was not a tank, but a mobile PT. And the Germans lacked tanks, namely workhorses. The Cat Lover helped them to lose the war as quickly as possible.
  21. +2
    3 July 2019 23: 04
    Quote: Jager
    In life, T-V is even more huge than in the comparison pictures. The same "Tiger" for all its severity and brutality looks more modest.

    I remember my surprise in Kubinka when I first saw the Panther and realized how huge it is.
    And then I saw Ferdinand ...
    1. -1
      4 July 2019 09: 52
      M. Svirin has a table comparing the side and frontal projections for the Panther, T-34-85 and T-44. So, the frontal, respectively, is 5,1m2, 3,62m2, 3,24m2, and the side is 11,1m2, 7,6m2 and 6,4m2. So, other things being equal, the probability of hitting Soviet tanks was 1,5-1,7 times lower.
      1. 0
        4 July 2019 10: 36
        Quote: Potter
        So, the frontal, respectively, is 5,1m2, 3,62m2, 3,24m2, and the side is 11,1m2, 7,6m2 and 6,4m2. So, other things being equal, the probability of hitting Soviet tanks was 1,5-1,7 times lower.

        Considering that most of the hits (more than 60%) in tanks from the side of the anti-aircraft defense of both sides were in the side projection, this is a very important parameter.
  22. -1
    3 July 2019 23: 05
    According to Panther: for the Nazis, the production of this product was expensive, difficult, long. When the Fritz were abandoned to support our "sworn friends", and this happened in 42, then the sunset of fascist Germany began. After all, it was with the support of loans to German industry from the beginning of the 30s that the Third Reich took place. After all, it was our "sworn friends" who threw Barbarossa to Adolf, through the then oligarchs, owners of German enterprises, but as usual, when it smelled of fried food, they quickly changed their orientation! PS The best WWII tank is the T-34-85!
  23. +1
    3 July 2019 23: 25
    As for the engine, the “Daimler men” were going to install a diesel of their own design on a tank, but the gasoline engine was much more acceptable for Germany. First of all, for the reason that diesel fuel for the most part was absorbed by submarines kriegsmarine, and therefore was in a fair deficit. As a result, the Panther received a 700-strong Maybach.

    belay
    Good evening, Andrew!

    As a land rider, only a little fond of the fleet, I propose a program of action:
    1. learn hydrogenation methods and their products
    2. Let's analyze the needs of the Armed Forces in diesel fuel and their satisfaction (I gave several tables above, I can still throw it)
    3. delete this paragraph from the article

    Creative success!
    1. +2
      4 July 2019 00: 20
      The topic of the production of synthetic fuel in Germany, even on the site, has already been dismantled many times, described all the technological processes and their history. I have commented many times myself. However, the tale about gasoline and diesel, launched by an unknown hero, is immortal and is repeated with surprising regularity.
    2. 0
      5 July 2019 07: 48
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      2. Let's analyze the needs of the Armed Forces in diesel fuel and their satisfaction (I gave several tables above, I can still throw it)

      Try to make a better analysis of the "thrown". I say right away, I'm not going to do this for you - your data, you and the cards are in your hands
  24. +4
    4 July 2019 00: 04
    In other words, the Panther was almost the perfect tank ... for an army losing the war.


    Funny summary. Thanks Andrew, as always it was interesting. hi
  25. +2
    4 July 2019 00: 29
    Quote: dgonni
    rolled out 2 or 3 of our divisions


    Take it wider and deeper!
    Not two, but 22, and not under Balaton, but in interstellar space, then the Pepsi generation will definitely believe you.
  26. +1
    4 July 2019 00: 43
    Thanks. Very informative.
  27. +2
    4 July 2019 02: 51
    Thank you Andrey! Great job! I read with interest, although tanks and planes are not mine.
  28. +3
    4 July 2019 07: 19
    Quote: AU Ivanov.
    B2 is a modified GERMAN YUMO-4, aviation diesel. Hence the light alloys in its design.

    Enough already to carry nonsense!
    B-2 has nothing to do with Jumo, but was created on the basis of its gasoline ancestor and brother, the aircraft M-17, which is why it has 'light alloys'.
    But the M-17, and even then, the first copies, were licensed copies of the BMW-VI (hey, what side is Jumo here?), Subsequent modifications in common with the German only had the V12 configuration and the CPG dimension, which, to put it mildly, is rather weak for ' copies'.
    Jumo was based on a completely different engine-205, with PDP, and After the war, when creating the Soviet two-stroke with PDP-5TDF.
    By the way, Soviet engineers managed this time, too, almost impossible, from, frankly, the worst engine in their circuitry, to create a decent unit with the highest liter capacity and an acceptable resource (the 205th, again by the way, had nothing but negative reviews German aircraft engineers, in all respects).
    1. 0
      4 July 2019 09: 32
      Chief Designer of the KhPZ Diesel Department K.F. Chelpan, in the course of further development, revised a number of the most important characteristics of the engine: for example, the camber angle of the blocks became 60 ° (it was 45 °), and the dimension of the cylinders was 150x180 mm (it was 150x165 mm). The participants in the development noted that in both cases, the recommendations of V.Ya. Klimov. It was he who suggested borrowing some design solutions of the M-100 carburetor engine (licensed Hispano-Suise HS 12Y), the cylinder dimension of which was 148x170 mm.
  29. 0
    4 July 2019 07: 34
    Quote: Volk62
    Among other shortcomings, the author forgot to mention the gasoline engine. More precisely, it burned like a match, not even in battle, but simply on the march. There are cases when, when marching through the forest, needles that fell on top of the engine compartment caused a fire. Yes, and other shortcomings really did not allow the panther to turn around normally, so when marching into the combat zone, from 40 to 60% of the tanks went out of order. But on the other hand, in defense it was something, hidden in caponiers, they clicked 34s like seeds without much harm to themselves.

    Heavy Duty Nonsense Gasoline Engine.
    The Americans suffered with them back in the 50-60s (Diamond, Mac).
    Overheating, low torque, unreliability and moodiness of the fuel and ignition systems, gluttony put a fat cross on the use of this type of engine on trucks with g / p above 10t.
    The same ZIL 130.series and Ural-375/377 with us lasted in the series only and exclusively for a trivial reason, fuel then really cost a penny.
    And only on modern cars, with the help of abstruse electronics, variable timing phases, it was possible to create engines, at least somehow approaching diesel engines (but diesel engines nowadays, with a 'sporty character' are far from rare).
    1. 0
      4 July 2019 14: 22
      131 Zila too. My father worked in a gasoline tarpaulin Ural. He said he just ate gasoline.
  30. 0
    4 July 2019 12: 23
    As you know, the largest tank that the Wehrmacht had at the beginning of World War II was the T-IV modification F

    the author is still worth being objective and precise in the wording
    and how captured French tanks?
    and how a multi-tower prototype?
    the Wehrmacht had heavier tanks, but they were all not of the classical layout.
    1. 0
      5 July 2019 07: 45
      Quote: yehat
      the author is still worth being objective and precise in the wording

      And what's wrong with that?
      Quote: yehat
      and how captured French tanks?

      The medium ones had less than 20 tons, the Wehrmacht did not use the heavy ones as tanks
      Quote: yehat
      and how a multi-tower prototype?

      Was in the prototype and did not enter the Wehrmacht
  31. +2
    4 July 2019 12: 29
    Quote: dgonni
    The gun actually pierced the IS-2 at a distance of 2500

    in fact, we conducted experiments and found that for ALL German Is-2 tanks it is invulnerable at distances of 1500 + m
    and the result was a massively applied tactic, when ICs almost never approached the contact line closer than 2 km.
    you confused t34 sample 41 years (not even t34-85) and IS.
    t34-85 it was already very difficult to knock out at distances of 1000+. because basically you could only get into the tower (and it greatly added to the defense, almost equal to the panther’s tower), and the silhouette was small and the mobility was high.
  32. +4
    4 July 2019 12: 32
    Informative, thanks for comparing tank reservations!
    From which it is clearly seen that the Germans better understood the tactics of using tanks - uniform booking is pointless ... request
    And so Panther is a strange tank for a war of attrition:
    1) The gun is excessively powerful, i.e. expensive to manufacture and with excessive consumption of gunpowder;
    2) Gluttonous engine
    3) Complex construction.
    Therefore, "it was almost an ideal tank ... for an army losing the war." The Panther was not - I would say so, it was a technical and tactical stupidity that the Germans did with their characteristic approach - German means the best! bully
    As for the technical, they saw everything in the T-34, except for manufacturability and suitability for mass production in conditions of a deficit of everything, and they themselves created the abstruse request .... And when they themselves pecked - they began to simplify the Panther, but it was too late ...
    As for the tactical one, they created a medium tank to replace the medium T-4, and the 2nd heavy tank at the same time as the Tiger - which is not reasonable! So Guderian was right when he demanded that instead of the Panthers, it would be necessary to increase the production of the T-4 ... And it’s good for us that they launched it bully
    As for anti-tank capabilities, the Germans found a more reasonable and cheaper approach - special self-propelled guns!
  33. 0
    4 July 2019 12: 43
    The diesel on the tank has the advantage that, due to the greater torque, it allows you to pick up speed faster from a "standing" position. This advantage, coupled with a competent crew, dramatically increased the survivability of the tank. Plus, diesel is more economical. The article does not indicate the power reserve of the Panther, and it was very small, especially over rough terrain (less than 100 km).
    The thesis about a large booked volume and, as a result, more spacious working conditions for the crew is only partly true. On the T-34-85, the diameter of the turret shoulder strap was approximately equal to that of the Panther. The dimensions of the guns in the reserved volume were comparable, as well as the dimensions of the shots for 85mm and 75mm guns. Due to the "German" layout and the control compartment oversized for the sake of repairing the transmission, the working conditions of the driver and radio operator in the Panther tank were higher than those of the T-34-85.
  34. 0
    4 July 2019 14: 05
    Quote: Jager
    I suspect that saboteurs were sitting in the midst of German engineers, because I can’t explain the complicated, unrepairable and heavy running gear scheme.

    I don’t know among German engineers, but among Czech, as it turned out, one Russian from the White Guards, who spoiled as best he could,
    1. 0
      4 July 2019 21: 16
      Admittedly, the Czech Pz-38 turned out to be quite successful. But the Pz-35 was a rare trash with its unreliable running and exotic transmission.
  35. -1
    4 July 2019 15: 48
    Quote: Proxima
    The author repeated the bike roaming the Internet that they did not put a diesel engine on the Panther, because the Kriegsmarine did not have enough diesel fuel. This is utter nonsense! A tank diesel engine, which is much more efficient than a gasoline engine (efficiency, power reserve, unpretentiousness in operation, etc.) is, oddly enough, an area of ​​​​high technology that we have mastered (thanks americans), but the Germans do not. The fact is that a diesel engine is easy to operate, but it is very difficult to produce. This primarily concerns the fuel equipment. Our technologists, to the surprise of American engineers, solved this problem in an original way, they put girls whose fingers were more sensitive than the fingers of a neurosurgeon to assemble the fuel apparatus! As for fuel, what do you think is more expensive to produce gasoline or diesel fuel? Of course, gasoline! I will say even more, the T-34 engine worked perfectly on gas oil, and this is the most primitive oil conversion! Or another example, when Badanov's tank corps captured the airfield in Tatsinskaya, he needed to solve the problem with fuel. They took captured aviation gasoline, added motor oil there and that's it, "diesel fuel" is ready for use. So the installation of XNUMX-horsepower gasoline engines on the Panther is a good mine in a bad game, they say we didn’t need it.


    It is possible in more detail about the origin of "our" V-2 diesel engine.
  36. 0
    4 July 2019 15: 51
    When the Germans started developing the Panther, 3 new tank guns for new tanks were already being developed at once: 7,5 cm KWK-42 L / 70, 8,8 cm KWK-36 L-56 and 8,8 cm KWK- 43L/71. On the Panther, 7,5 cm KWK-42 L / 70 was decided. The diameter of the Panther's turret shoulder strap is only 1650 mm. Initially, it did not allow to install something more powerful than the 7,5 cm KWK-42 L / 70 on this tank. shoulder strap was 4 mm. It turns out that the developers of the Panther made a mistake here too. In order to later install Ausf. F." 1600 cm KWK-8,8 L / 43, a new, so-called "narrow turret" had to be developed with a shoulder strap diameter of 71 mm - the smallest shoulder strap diameter that allowed this gun to be installed. Those it was necessary to make a number of changes to the design of the "Panther", which would inevitably lead to a decrease in the number of produced "Panthers". Would it really be so difficult even at the initial stage of development of the "Panther" to install another tower into which, with minimal changes, one could install, for example, all the same 1750 cm KWK- 8,8 L / 43? After all, by the end of 71, the Wehrmacht received a lot of not very pleasant surprises on the Eastern Front, and it was clear that such surprises would not end there.
    1. 0
      5 July 2019 10: 14
      On the one hand, the Panther's tower looks somehow small - against the background of its hull. On the other hand, a larger tower would entail an increase in weight, which turned out to be prohibitive anyway ...
      I think that this is the reason for choosing a relatively narrow shoulder strap.
      1. +1
        5 July 2019 16: 32
        Quote: PilotS37
        On the one hand, the Panther's tower looks somehow small - against the background of its hull. On the other hand, a larger tower would entail an increase in weight, which turned out to be prohibitive anyway ...
        I think that this is the reason for choosing a relatively narrow shoulder strap.


        The suspension could initially be made different, for more weight. It seems that in this case the Germans were just in a hurry, and they realized the shortcomings already in the process of operating the Panthers.
        1. 0
          7 July 2019 21: 26
          Andrew writes about this and ...
          1. 0
            10 July 2019 15: 01
            Quote: PilotS37
            Andrew writes about this and ...


            I mean the real "Panther". I don’t understand why the Germans, creating a new medium tank and having “on hand” the real experience of the French company of 1940 and not a small experience of fighting on the Eastern Front in 1941, made such a serious mistake.
  37. 0
    4 July 2019 16: 04
    the Germans, in fact, in the offensive used the "Panthers" not as tanks, but as self-propelled artillery installations, the actions of which were provided by the usual "triples" and "fours". And in defense, the Panthers were an excellent anti-tank self-propelled guns: realizing the direction of the main attack, the Germans could always prepare and meet ours at pre-prepared positions, “head on”, shooting it from afar, preventing it from entering for an attack from the flank.

    Why is it necessary to make a full-fledged tank and use it as an anti-tank self-propelled gun or a tank gun? This is the most needlessly expensive self-propelled guns in the war. At least two or three Hetzers can be riveted on each Panther. And for defense, defense is ten times better and more efficient using PAV 600. I have only one answer - private German companies in the conditions of modern capitalism naturally strived for maximum profit and produced very expensive and inefficient weapons, discarding all other possibilities. This is also observed in all other German arms manufacturers.
  38. 0
    4 July 2019 17: 19
    Three times to start the next paragraph with the phrase "In other words" is undoubtedly a godsend good
  39. The comment was deleted.
  40. 0
    4 July 2019 23: 24

    Panther - the story of creation.
  41. 0
    5 July 2019 09: 57
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    heavy Wehrmacht not used as tanks

    part b1 was used as engineering and flamethrower tanks
  42. 0
    5 July 2019 10: 26
    In other words, the Panthers, for a number of the above reasons, did not meet the requirements of the modern maneuver war at that time, the strategy and tactics of deep operations.


    Brave claim.

    Frankly, you have to be an idiot to get out of the battle by substituting the board or stern.
    Reversing is a common practice.
    Those. the tactics of using "panthers" are the same for the T-34 and for the KV / IS, and in modern conditions it will be mostly relevant.
    1. 0
      5 July 2019 15: 35
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Brave claim.

      Well, I never considered myself a coward. laughing
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Frankly, you have to be an idiot to get out of the battle by substituting the board or stern.
      Reversing is a common practice.

      And what about the armor? First of all, it was about the fact that the Panther could not be produced in sufficient quantities and had certain problems with the chassis. Booking has nothing to do with deep operations and cannot have
  43. +1
    5 July 2019 15: 39
    Regarding the "chess" running ...
    The Germans came up with it in order to provide a heavy tank with a good ride, and they achieved this.

    But what about some German artillery tractors and even a heavy motorcycle? There, too, for the sake of smoothness, the rollers were placed in a similar way?
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  44. +1
    5 July 2019 17: 39
    I once spoke over a glass of tea from the head of the tank museum, that in Kubinka and to the question that he personally would prefer the answer, Panther ...
  45. 0
    10 July 2019 15: 32
    In other words, before meeting with the T-34, the German generals were arming their tank divisions T-III and T-IV and were quite pleased with them.


    German generals were not happy with their T-III and T-IV tanks already during the French company of 1940, since it was then that the German tankers had to meet well-armored French and British tanks against which the T-III and T-IV armament was not effective enough. After this short war, the Germans came to the conclusion that the armament and armor of their best tanks at that time were weak and the pre-war concept, in accordance with which tanks would fight enemy tanks only from time to time, also turned out to be erroneous. After a thorough study of everything that was connected with the battles in France in 1940 in the second half of 1940 for their new tanks, which were to replace the T-III and T-IV instead of the short-barreled 75 mm. guns and 105 mm. howitzers began to consider weapons in the form of 105 mm. guns with a barrel length of 47 and 52 caliber. But since these guns, due to their rather large caliber, could not receive unitary shots - a relatively low rate of fire, as a result, at the end of May 1941, they came to the conclusion that it was necessary to arm new 88 mm tanks. gun created on the basis of anti-aircraft 8,8 cm Flak-36 L / 56. I found this information in a book.

    Spielberger: Der Panzerkampfwagen Tiger und seine Abarten.

    The Germans had less than a month before the attack on the USSR. In the USSR, the Germans were expecting a number of surprises that were not the most pleasant for the Germans, and as a result, the Germans abandoned the previously relatively well-designed tank projects in favor of the larger Panthers and Tigers

    In the same book, it was mentioned that in the middle of 1942 the Germans began to develop an even more powerful tank gun of 10,5 cm caliber with a barrel length of 70 calibers. The Germans never brought this development to the end of WWII.

    But the long-barreled KwK 42 L70 sent a 6,8 kg projectile flying at a speed of 925 m / s!


    Andrey. Armor-piercing projectile for this PzGr gun. 39/42 weighed 7,2 kg.
  46. 0
    11 July 2019 03: 06
    The Germans had a shortage of almost everything - human resources both at the front and in the rear, metal, fuel, and hell knows what else. Therefore, they tried to make as many tanks as there were enough resources, but at the same time surpassing the enemy's tanks many times over and in all respects. They partially succeeded. Yes, cats were better than the T-34 and Sherman in places, but the benefits were not overwhelming. Nevertheless, it was clearly more profitable for the Germans to fill in scarce gasoline and put scarce 5 people in Tigers and Panthers than in all other PzIII and PzIV. Simpler tanks were produced only because some factories could not master the production of tanks better, so they did what they could, and everyone who could did the Tigers and Panthers. But it was more profitable for the Red Army and the US Army to deploy tanks, albeit in something worse, but a lot. No, not just a lot, but a LOT. Good resources allowed. Whose approach won?
    1. 0
      11 July 2019 23: 37
      Quote: Nagan
      Tanks were made easier simply because some plants couldn’t master the production of tanks better, so they did what they could, and so did everyone who could make the Tigers and Panthers.


      The point was also that organizing the production of any new military and other equipment takes time and all the same resources. No one would have waited during WWII for the Germans to do all this. So the Germans had to produce what they could produce on existing equipment and with available resources.
  47. 0
    23 July 2019 07: 39
    It is somehow self-evident with us that the diesel of that time has the advantages of gasoline.
    But diesel was inferior to gasoline then in terms of resource, and even if the Germans began to buy V-2 from the USSR, they would not put it on their tanks, since the Germans practiced rapid transfers of tanks along the front line for surprise strikes, and the resource and resource of their engines was much higher.
  48. 0
    8 September 2019 12: 55
    The Panther had a clear discrepancy between armor and weapons, the so-called underarmament. As many modern experts in the history of armored vehicles say, the 8.8 gun should have been installed on it, which has excellent armor penetration and high-explosive damage ....... But in general, this tank is an outstanding example of engineering and design......
  49. 0
    28 February 2020 17: 10
    It’s interesting why the Germans did not use the English infantry tank Matilda as an example (which they encountered much earlier than the 34koy), with a mass of 27 tons it had circular 75 mm armor, as for me this tank is superior to 34 in terms of protection, for him chassis, suspension and engine change, the tower is more spacious and here's a square 1)