About the irretrievable loss of armored vehicles of the USSR and Germany in 1943

145
Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers. Studying the statistics of the loss of armored vehicles of Germany and the USSR in the Great Patriotic War, we see that it is absolutely impossible to compare it head-on, because the concept of “irretrievable losses” both the Red Army and the Wehrmacht understood in different ways. But the problem is not only this - in the previous article, the author showed another reason that the irretrievable losses of armored vehicles cannot serve as a measure of the combat skills of the parties.

The fact is that in 1943 the Soviet Tanks and self-propelled guns received critical damage, excluding the repair of damaged armored vehicles 1,5-2, and possibly more times more often than their German opponents. As the analysis of the German losses on the Kursk Bulge shows, their level of irretrievable losses was 20, maximum 30% of the total losses of armored vehicles, and for Soviet tanks and self-propelled guns it reached an average of 44%, but could be even higher. What did that mean? Roughly speaking, in order for the Germans to completely destroy 40 Soviet tanks, they had to hit 100 of these combat vehicles in battle, but in order for our soldiers to destroy 40 German tanks irrevocably, they had to kill 150-200 or more.





Why did this happen?

The first reason is very simple.


The Germans in 1943 attached great importance to the destruction of disabled enemy armored vehicles. That is, it was not enough for them to knock out a Soviet tank - they still had to make sure that it was damaged, completely incompatible with further combat activity. If they doubted that the equipment received such damage - tankers or sappers undermined it. This activity was put on stream by the Germans. Ours, although they were doing the same, but there is a persistent feeling that they didn’t apply such efforts as the Germans to the removal of the previously wounded German armored vehicles. However, the author does not have exact figures on this issue.

The second reason, it is the main


It consists (now you will laugh) in the weakness of the armor protection of German tanks. Yes, yes, you heard right: it is very likely that it was the weakness of armor that reduced the level of irretrievable losses of German armored vehicles!

How so? A very simple. In previous articles, we examined in detail the evolution of German anti-tank artillery in 1942. Faced with the Soviet T-34 and KV tanks, the Germans were forced to quickly saturate their battle formations with specialized 75-mm anti-tank guns like towed (Pak 40), and installed on at least specialized anti-tank self-propelled units ("Marder" and so on.). But this was not enough for them. In the Wehrmacht there were SAUs whose main task was to support infantry units and which were armed with short-barreled 75-mm gun (StuG), very little suitable for fighting enemy armored vehicles - they were redesigned for long-barreled 75-mm gun, thus adding the usual anti-tank gun to anti-tank guns. opportunities. In addition, new German tanks also received similar 75-mm guns.

And if during the 1942 the Germans had to resort to various kinds of ersatz, such as the massive use of French 75-mm captured guns and (in much smaller volumes) domestic F-22, which were not created as specialized VET guns, then throughout 1943, this flaw has been completely eradicated. If in 1942 the Wehrmacht and SS units received 2 144 units. Pak 40 and 2 854 French guns installed on the German carriage and named Pak 97 / 40, then in 1943, the number transferred to the Pak 40 troops reached 8 740 units. At the same time, the production of anti-tank guns of smaller calibers in 1943 g was minimized - if 1942 4 units were produced in 480. very good long-barreled 50-mm Pak 38, then 1943 2 units created them in 626, and at that completely stopped their production. Mass use of captured technology was also not.

Therefore, on the whole, it can be stated that in 1943 the German anti-tank defense was based on a specialized and very powerful 75-mm artillery system capable of successfully fighting our T-34 and KV. But this, of course, is not all.

In 1943, the mass use of new type German tanks began: it goes without saying about the “products” of the TV “Panther” and the T-VI “Tiger”. I must say that until that time, both the Red Army and the Wehrmacht had an ultimatum-powerful weaponsable to destroy almost any enemy tank at a direct shot range, and even more. This, of course, is about the famous German 88-mm and a few less well-known, but also extremely powerful domestic 85-mm anti-aircraft guns.



Both those and others had a sufficient level of armor penetration and the power of the projectile to combat enemy armored vehicles, but there were important factors limiting their use. First, it was nevertheless anti-aircraft guns that were needed to counter enemy aircraft, and distracting them to destroy enemy tanks meant weakening the air defense system in favor of anti-tank guns - and this was not always acceptable. Secondly, such weapons were too expensive to create VET on their basis, and there was no need for this, since even the most powerful armored Soviet vehicles could handle smaller caliber artillery. It should be understood that even the industrial power of Germany could not provide for the production of 88-mm "AHT-KOMA-AHT" in the volumes covering the needs of the air defense of the troops and the country. Thirdly, the requirements for anti-aircraft and anti-tank guns are fundamentally different. For example, an anti-tank gun should be made as low and invisible as possible. And, since its main combat distance does not exceed the range of a direct shot, a large angle of elevation is not required for a PTV cannon, which makes it possible to dispense with a low carriage. The anti-aircraft gun is the opposite: the angle of elevation must be under 90 degrees, which requires a high carriage. In addition, the anti-aircraft gun necessarily need a round-up attack, and it should turn around quickly, pull openers out of the ground and deploy a cannon during the shelling of enemy aircraft once. For an anti-tank gun, such a skill, too, in general, would not be superfluous, but they can also be neglected. On the other hand, dimensions and mass are extremely important for a VET instrument, since in battle it is very important that the calculation be able to roll it on its own, but for an anti-aircraft gun it is absolutely not necessary, etc.

As a result, anti-aircraft guns, of course, was a formidable, but highly situational anti-tank tool. Once in the right place at the right time, anti-aircraft guns could stop almost as many enemy tanks as there were shells in their ammunition, but at the same time, after finding their positions, they became very vulnerable to the enemy’s field artillery, and due to the large size and weight could quickly change position.

Understanding the shortcomings of the 88-mm anti-aircraft guns as a means of VET, the Germans tried to solve the problem radically. Simply put, they put this, in any respect, outstanding artillery system on the tracks, protected from all sides by 100 mm armor, which provided it with the necessary mobility, and almost ultimatum protection from field and anti-tank artillery.



This, in fact, turned out to be the T-VI “Tiger” tank, which, for all its many shortcomings and in those cases when it was still able to be delivered to the battlefield in a timely manner, was a perfect anti-tank weapon at five minutes. Total Germans in 1943 r released 643 such machines. But that's not all - in the 1943, the troops began to receive a specialized anti-tank towed 88-mm gun Pak 43 and Pak 43 / 41, which differed from the Pak 43 using the classic gun mount from the 105-mm gun.


In the photo - in the foreground Pak 43 / 41, in the background - Pak 43


Being a perfect "tank killer", "Tiger", due to the large mass, huge fuel consumption and other operational characteristics, was not at all suitable for use as the main combat vehicle for tank divisions. In this role, the Germans assumed to use the T-V "Panther", which was a creative rethinking of the ideas embodied in the T-34. We will look at the technical characteristics of this outstanding offspring of the German tankoprom later, but for now let's stop only on its main armament: 75-mm KwK 42 guns.



Prior to his appearance, 75-mm KwK 40 with barrel length 43 and 48 gauges were massively installed on German armored vehicles. The speed of the caliber armor-piercing projectile of these guns was 770 and 792 m / s, respectively, which was quite enough for a confident defeat of the T-34 even to the frontal projection at a distance to 1000 m, however, the frontal part of the body penetrated reliably only on the 500, possibly 700 m. But the 75-mm KwK 42, mounted on the Panther, had a barrel in 70 lengths of caliber and informed its caliber armor-piercing projectile initial speed in 935 m / s. Of course, the T-34 did not defend the armor at all from such strikes, and at a direct shot range the Soviet tank made its way into any projection: it could only be counted on a ricochet, which was possible only with extremely successful (for T-34) circumstances.

And what's the "direct shot"?


It is possible, dear reader, already wonders why the author of this article constantly uses the phrase “direct shot range”. The fact is that so many lovers of military stories estimate the range of the tank battle solely in terms of the armor penetration capability of the weapons of the participating armored vehicles. That is, for example, if the tabular armor penetration of KwK 42 was at a distance of 2 km as well as 89 mm steel homogeneous armor, then the Panther could easily destroy T-34 from a distance of 1,5-2 km. However, this approach is too one-sided, since it does not take into account the possibilities of sights of armored vehicles of that time. But it did not provide some reliable defeat of enemy tanks at such great distances.

What is the direct shot range? This is the largest sighting range, when shooting at which the average trajectory does not rise above the height of the target.

About the irretrievable loss of armored vehicles of the USSR and Germany in 1943


That is, with such a shooting, in order to hit a target, you need to aim directly at a tank, at a hull or a tower, depending on the range, but the point is that by pointing the gun at an enemy vehicle, the gunner will hit it. But for firing at a distance greater than the direct shot range, it will be necessary to solve a geometric problem similar to that calculated by naval gunners: determine the range and movement parameters of the target, calculate the necessary corrections, because even at 20 speed km / h tank in a second overcomes 5,5 m., etc. All this is difficult and reduces the likelihood of rapid destruction of the target, while enemy tanks, even being taken by surprise, will naturally try to get out of the shelling, so that the PTO weapon or tank unmasks its position in vain. Thus, the actual combat distances during the Great Patriotic War were significantly lower than the tabular armor penetration of German tanks allowed. As an example, consider the table cited in the monograph by A. Shirokorad “God of War of the Third Reich”, devoted, as you can easily guess, to German artillery of the corresponding period. The table was compiled on the basis of 735 research of padded tanks and self-propelled guns: reports were taken, in most cases measurements were taken from the location of the wrecked car to the position of German tanks or PTO artillery.



The above data irrefutably shows that in most cases 75-mm German guns fought an anti-tank battle at a distance of 400-600 m (33,5% of cases), and 88-mm - 600-800 m (31,2%). At the same time 75-mm guns hit 69,6% of their targets at a distance from 100 to 600 m and 84,1% from 100 to 800 m, and 88-mm guns - 67,2% at a distance from 100 to 800 m and 80,7% - at a distance from XNUM mm to 100 m.

Unfortunately, the fact that the real distances of the battle were significantly lower than those that in theory provided armor penetration of guns are often forgotten, and this leads to completely wrong conclusions. A simple example: as we said earlier, the X-NUMX-mm T-IVH gun penetrated the frontal T-75 armor, with the exception of the frontal part at the 34 1 distance, and according to some sources, even the 000 1 m, and the frontal part could penetrate meters from the 200 -500. The Soviet tank, although it could penetrate the frontal armor of the turret with a continuous solid armor-piercing projectile at a distance of the order of 700 m, but 1000 mm frontal hull parts could penetrate only with a sabot projectile and only from a distance of no more than 80 m or even less.

It seems that this gives the German tank a deafening advantage in the case of a head-to-head duel. But if we assume on the basis of the statistics presented above that almost 70% of such duels took place at a distance of 600 m, and in 36,1% of cases tanks fought at a distance not exceeding 400 m., Then we understand that in this, in general, then, a tactical situation that is unprofitable for the T-34, the superiority of the German tank is not at all as great as it might have seemed on the basis of armor penetration tables. And yet - it becomes clear how important the tank height is, because the higher the tank, the farther the direct shot distance on it: the same American "Shermans" German anti-tankers could hit from a greater distance than the T-34.

Does all this mean that the German designers were wrong in their desire to provide the Panzerwaff with extremely powerful tools of 75-88-mm caliber? Yes, nothing happened. First, the more powerful weapon has a flatter trajectory of the munition, which means a longer direct shot range than the less powerful one. And secondly, at relatively short distances - up to 600 m for 75-mm guns and up to 1 000 m for 88-mm, these artillery systems with the highest probability provided breakdown of armor of the same T-34 and rupture of an armor-piercing projectile in zabronevom space.

Brief conclusions on the Wehrmacht PTO in 1943


So let us briefly summarize the main trends of the German VET and tank guns in 1943. The German army re-equipped the long-barreled 75-88-mm anti-tank guns, and this applied to both towed artillery and tanks and self-propelled guns, while continuing to be widely used as means of VET 88-mm anti-aircraft "aht-coma-aht". The consequences were not long in coming. If until September 1942, 75-mm artillery accounted for just 10,1% of all damage inflicted on Soviet tanks, and for 88-mm guns, this figure was vanishingly small 3,4%, and more than 60% of all damage gave 50-mm guns, in the Stalingrad operation, the percentage of damage caused by 75-mm and 88-mm guns was already 12,1 and 7,8%, respectively. But in the Oryol offensive operation, 40,5% of all damage was inflicted with 75-mm caliber guns, and 26% with 88-mm caliber guns, that is, in aggregate, the artillery systems of these calibers provided 66,5% of the defeats of Soviet tanks!

In other words, in the 1942 g and earlier, the main means of the PTO in the Wehrmacht were guns of caliber 50-mm or less, and in 1943 g - 75-88-mm. Accordingly, the number of penetrating armor protection covers of Soviet tanks increased: until September 1942, the proportion of such holes was 46% of their total number (except through ones, there were also non-through holes), in the Stalingrad operation they accounted for 55% of all defeats, and in Orlovskaya offensive operations reached 88%!

And so it happened that in 1943, our tank units apparently faced a sharp increase in irretrievable losses, because the main mass of enemy hits were given 75-88-mm projectiles that pierced T-34 and KV armor and exploded in the armored space. The rupture of such a projectile in the ammunition or in the fuel tank practically guaranteed the destruction of the T-34, without the slightest chance of recovering it: the explosion of the ammunition assembly completely destroyed the car, and the burned cars in 87-89% could not be recovered. But even if nothing like this happened, the relatively heavy German projectile could have completely destroyed the domestic tank — and, alas, did it.

And what about our vet?


She, alas, was "corrupted" by the weakness of the protection of German tanks. Under the conditions when the body armor of the main mass of the German “triples” and “fours” even in 1942 did not exceed 30-50 mm, even the famous “forty-five” 45-mm anti-tank cannon arr. 1937 g. With a barrel length 46 gauges.



However, 40-50 mm of armor already presented some problem for it, therefore 1942 developed an improved model of “forty-five” with a barrel in length of 68,6 caliber - this is M-42.



This artillery system accelerated caliber armor-piercing projectile weighing 1,43 kg to speed 870 m / s, which was 110 m / s more than the gun mod. 1937 d. By its combat capabilities, M-42 was close enough to the capabilities of the German 50-mm Pak 38 (if not to take into account the quality of the shells), but there is a nuance - M-42 went to the series in 1943, that is, exactly when Pak 38 was withdrawn from release.

In general, of course, the M-42 was quite a formidable means of VET due to its low weight and size, the comparative cheapness of production, and most importantly, due to the overt weakness of the onboard booking of the German T-III and T-IV tanks, which usually did not exceed 30 mm. It was easy to hide the M-42, arranging the batteries so that they covered each other with crossfire, so the Germans had no opportunity to stand in front of them all in front of them. But it cannot be said that there were so many of these cannons in 1943, for all this year 4 151 units were fired.

A remarkable anti-tank gun was 57-mm gun mod. 1941 ZiS-2, shooting 3,19 kg caliber projectile with an initial speed 990 m / s.



Such an ammunition could well hit 80-mm T-IVH armored plates in the forehead at a distance of about 500 m, ZiS-2 could easily withstand even Tiger tanks. But the truly mass production of the ZIS-2 in the war years was not established - the 1941 g produced the entire 141 gun, and then removed them from production to 1943 itself. But in 1943 g only 1 855 was transferred to the troops such guns: it must be said that the ZiS-2 was too late for the Kursk Bulge, because of all the forces that the Red Army managed to concentrate there, they were armed only with the 4 anti-tank regiment.

Thus, the main gravity of the anti-tank battles continued to be carried by the “expert of all trades” 76,2-mm ZIS-3, the production of which in 1943 amounted to 13 924 units.



But with all its undeniable merits, this artillery system was in no way a specialized anti-tank weapon. The ZIS-3 informed its caliber armor-piercing projectile with an initial speed of only 655 m / s, which was more or less enough for the bulk of the German 1942 armored vehicles, but for 1943 it was no longer too good.

And what else? Of course, there was an excellent 85-mm 52-K anti-aircraft gun that could confidently hit German tanks at a direct shot range, but these guns were few — in all the years of production, from 1939 to 1945, they were produced by 14 422 units, and they desperately needed our air defense.

As for domestic armored vehicles, the bulk of the Soviet 1943 tanks of release had the 45-mm or X-NUMX-mm F-76,2 cannons, the latter approximately in their anti-tank capabilities approximately Zis-34. As for the ACS, their main mass consisted of light SU-3, all with the same 76-mm gun, and SU-76,2, which was armed with 122-mm short-barreled howitzer with a barrel length 122 caliber.



By the way, very high hopes were pinned on the latter precisely in terms of the anti-tank war, since it was assumed that their cumulative shells would become a very formidable weapon. The shells turned out to be formidable, but very quickly it turned out that because of the “mortar” ballistics of 122-mm howitzers, it was very difficult to get into the enemy tank from it. Our tankers began to receive specialized anti-tank ACS first tanks with 85-mm guns only from August on 1943, they simply did not have time to significantly influence the results of this year’s battles. Of course, if you look at the release time, it seems to be a good idea: from August to December 1943 756 SU-85 was released.



But the new equipment did not appear on the battlefield immediately after the release - it had to go to the troops, those - learn how to use it, etc. Therefore, for example, the German "Panthers", although they were made from February 1943, but went into battle only near Kursk, in July. And the same applies to the only real “opponent” capable of withstanding the new Wehrmacht tanks in 1943, SU-152. In February-June 1943 of such self-propelled guns 290 units were produced, but only 24 of these cars hit the Kursk arc. And just for the arsenal of our troops in 1943, they were produced 668 units. SU-152 and 35 units. ISU-152.

At the same time, of course, you need to understand that “the ability to hit an enemy tank” is one thing, and “an effective anti-tank weapon” is a little different. Yes, SU-152 had a very powerful 152-mm howitzer cannon ML-20, whose armor-piercing projectile had an initial speed of 600 m / s with a mass of 46,5-48,8 kg. However, the mass of the projectile and the associated separate loading made this artillery system not sufficiently fast for tank combat — only 1-2 spokes / min. Therefore, we can say that the SU-152, although it was more versatile than the ACS of the Wehrmacht, which were equipped with 88-mm guns, because it coped better with the destruction of field fortifications and so on, but it was still inferior to them as a "tank destroyer".



In other words, unlike the Wehrmacht, the Red Army was late in deploying specialized high-power anti-tank guns, and this happened due to the relatively poor booking of German equipment, since before 1943 they simply didn’t have a particular need. Alas, when this need was realized, rearmament could not be done in a single moment. And the consequence of this was that in 1943, the brunt of the fight against fascist armored vehicles fell on the old and modernized forty-fives, and on universal guns with the caliber 76,2-mm F-34 and ZiS-3. Moreover, our guns also had problems with the quality of armor-piercing projectiles, as a result, for the 76,2-mm artillery systems, the industry was forced to switch to the production of steel pigs 53-BR-350SP, which, although they had acceptable armor penetration, but did not carry explosive substances.

That is, at the time when the German VET provided breakdown of armor and a gap inside the domestic tank of shells with a caliber of 75-mm and more, domestic VET fought either with an 45-mm projectile, which was able to penetrate 25-30 mm of the "triples" and "fours" and disable them, but with a small zabronievy action, or 76,2-mm monolithic pigs or sabot projectiles, whose zabrevievy action was also low. Such projectiles, of course, could also destroy the enemy tank, but with rare exceptions, they destroyed some of its components and assemblies, but could not completely destroy the tank or SPG.

In other words, the main reason for the relatively high level of irretrievable losses of tanks and self-propelled guns of the USSR in 1943, against the background of German tanks, was the lack of specialized anti-tank guns capable of turning enemy tanks into a pile of scrap metal from 1-2 hits. Strange as it may seem, even in these conditions, the Soviet VET did very well with its duties, its hit incapacitated enemy tanks and self-propelled guns - but the problem was that, due to the relatively low level of domestic projectiles, was commissioned. At the same time, the German 75-88-mm artillery systems left the same "thirty-four" significantly less chance of a "second life after a major overhaul."

And finally, the last. At the beginning of 1943, the Germans practically excluded light armored vehicles from their combat formations - their TI, T-II and other Czech models made up just over 16% in the total number of tanks and SPGs - from 7, 927 tanks and SPG with which the Wehrmacht met the new, 1943 year, those were only 1 284 units. At the same time, the share of light armored vehicles in the tank forces of the Red Army on 01.01.1943 was 53,4% - from 20,6 thousand tanks of the USSR 11 thousand were light. In addition, the production of light equipment in the USSR continued in 1943, while in Germany the production of such tanks was completely curtailed.

Thus, we see that there was a mass of objective reasons for which the irretrievable losses of tanks and self-propelled guns of the USSR were significantly superior to the German ones in 1943. And they were completely unrelated to the martial art of the Red Army and the qualities of Soviet tankmen. In order to compare the level of combat training of tank troops of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army, it is necessary to compare the general, that is, return and irretrievable losses of armored vehicles of the parties, but this analysis cannot be done, due to the lack of reliable data from the German side. A comparison of only irretrievable losses is completely pointless, because for the reasons stated above, the Germans irretrievably lost 100-20 vehicles from our 30 German tanks and ours to 44 and more.

But the crux of the matter lies in the fact that both sides in our example, by the results of the battles, lost the tanks hit by 100, not 20-30 and not 44. And as a result of this uncomplicated arithmetic, the German tank divisions, having irretrievably lost all 15-20% of their initial combat strength, turned out to be combat-ready machines before the steel roller rolling on them in front of the Red Army. And, of course, they could no longer help their infantry and other units.

And then, after the war, the same E. von Manstein, describing his "victories" on the Kursk Bulge and the "successful" retreat of the troops entrusted to him, during which they, of course, not only fully retained their combat capability, but also defeated many times greater the “hordes of the Red Army” that are attacking them after literally a few pages are forced, reluctantly, to describe the real state of the troops they had withdrawn to the Dnieper:

“The headquarters of the group in connection with this reported that, as part of the three remaining armies, taking into account the arrival of three divisions still on the march, it has directly to defend the Dnieper border, the 700 km length, the entire 37 infantry divisions (5 divisions that have lost their combat effectiveness were distributed among the remaining divisions). Thus, each division had to defend a strip of width 20 km. The average number of first-tier divisions is, however, currently only 1000 people... ... Regarding the 17 tank and motorized divisions, which the army group now has, the report indicated that none of them had full combat capability. The number of tanks decreased as much as the numerical strength decreased. ”


And these words of the German field marshal are a real indicator of how the Red Army fought in 1943.

To be continued ...
145 comments
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  1. -4
    18 June 2019 12: 24
    there is one amendment to the author about the su-122.
    very quickly it became clear that its high-explosive projectile disables even a tiger, if it simply flops in the radius of 3 meters.
    so, despite the problems with flatness, they were very effective against tanks and without cumulative shells.
    1. +3
      18 June 2019 13: 07
      Yehat.
      And you, by the way, do not confuse Su-122 with Su-152?
      1. +3
        18 June 2019 13: 11
        no, I don’t confuse. It became clear back in 42, when the su-152 was not.
        curiously, no such conclusions were made at the training ground. Only after real battles.
      2. +4
        18 June 2019 23: 16
        July 8, 1943 during the Battle of Kursk self-propelled gun SU-122 under the command of Lieutenant R.V. Trainikova from the 1450th self-propelled artillery regiment was ambushed by two German tanks from an ambush. July 10, 1943 crew of self-propelled guns SU-122 under the command of Lieutenant A.B. Leshchinsky, also from an ambush, knocked out three enemy tanks. July 14, 1943 self-propelled battery commander SU-122 Senior Lieutenant S.S. Mironov from the same 1450th self-propelled artillery regiment knocked out three German tanks.
        August 10, 1943 heavy self-propelled guns SU-152 Major Sachkovsky (13th Army) in the first battle in the Oryol direction destroyed 10 German tanks.

        Baryatinsky Mikhail Borisovich. Soviet tank aces
        1. +3
          19 June 2019 10: 00
          hohol95
          Thanks! I have always considered the Su-122 a self-propelled infantry escort, but now it turns out that in skillful hands and with proper use this "artillery gun" is quite a tank destroyer. So, smart and heroic guys fought and commanded in the 1450th self-propelled artillery regiment!
          1. +1
            19 June 2019 13: 36
            Look for books by Baryatinsky about the tank ASRV of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht! There is a lot of interesting written! One of the differences between the German and Soviet documents on tank victories is that if the Germans could not determine the exact degree of defeat of the enemy tank, they clearly indicated - DESTROYED! In the Soviet Union, the main term for defeating enemy equipment was - LAST!
    2. +4
      18 June 2019 13: 12
      Quote: yehat
      very quickly it became clear that its high-explosive projectile disables even a tiger, if it simply flops in the radius of 3 meters.

      Honestly, I don’t remember something like that. Do not remind the source? I still do not bother them by heart, I could have missed something
      1. +3
        18 June 2019 13: 18
        2 had an account of clashes with the first tigers near Leningrad and somewhere else to the south.
        both noted that indirect hits actually brought them out of combat capability without breaking through their armor. Somewhere just a caterpillar tore, somewhere more serious damage. For example, it wedged the tower, disabled the transmission, and shell-shocked a key crew member. But this is just from the series when they could tow back and quickly fix it.
        1. +4
          18 June 2019 13: 22
          Quote: yehat
          2 had an account of clashes with the first tigers near Leningrad and somewhere else to the south.
          in both noted that indirect hits actually took them out of combat capability without piercing their armor

          There EMNIP all the same it was about direct hits
          1. +5
            18 June 2019 17: 50
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            There EMNIP all the same it was about direct hits

            No, shards, see data from Wiki:
            “The defensive fire of the M-30 battery with high-explosive fragmentation projectiles posed a certain threat to enemy armored vehicles. The fragments formed during the explosion were capable of penetrating armor up to 20 mm thick, which was quite enough to destroy armored personnel carriers and the sides of light tanks. Vehicles with thicker armor shrapnel could disable the elements of the chassis, the weapon, the sights. "
            for 152 it is even more efficient:
            "When installing the fuse of an OF-540 high-explosive fragmentation grenade weighing 43,56 kg for fragmentation, it inflicts damage with fragments along the front at 40 m and a depth of up to 8 m [23]. Although the number of fragments and their dispersion is significantly less than that of a howitzer grenades of the same caliber, the fragments themselves are more massive and can penetrate armor up to 20-30 mm thick.Therefore, the barrage of the ML-20 battery with high-explosive fragmentation shells posed a great threat not only to the enemy's manpower and fortifications, but also to his armored vehicles. Shrapnel pierced the armor of armored personnel carriers, the sides of light and medium tanks. In heavily armored vehicles, they put out of action the elements of the undercarriage, gun, sights.
            It seems that for 122 the distance of the explosion is 3 m, and for 152 it is about 8 m fatal for the running of any tank - it will kill the caterpillar ...
            1. +3
              18 June 2019 17: 51
              Quote: ser56
              fatally for the running of any tank - it will kill a caterpillar ...

              on the other hand, it is necessary to create a high density non-profit organization - the consumption of wild shells ... request
      2. +6
        18 June 2019 13: 20
        But with sources from a respected Yehat, as a rule, problems arise.
        Most often, he does not voice them ...
        How much do not fight with him.
        1. 0
          18 June 2019 13: 27
          are you kidding me again? You can find such sources yourself. They are. The first tigers are literally piece by piece and per minute described who where when he raked and from whom.
          1. +3
            18 June 2019 13: 35
            Yehat
            "... are you kidding again?"
            Yes, the Lord is with you! And there was no thought.
            You do not like to simply reveal your sources of information, and that’s it!
            "... you can find such sources yourself."
            Yes of course we can...
      3. +18
        18 June 2019 17: 41
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        could miss something

        1. +11
          18 June 2019 20: 05
          Hitting the minus of the 1943 Firing Rule Study Guide is ..... powerful.
          I wonder what the gifted did.
          1. +6
            18 June 2019 22: 34
            Does he admit! laughing They are all "modest", these minusers, and, as a rule, "have no serious objections" to publish. But this "your" has surpassed everyone. wassat
          2. 0
            19 June 2019 11: 08
            Yes, this is understandable :))))) But thanks anyway. But Sergei was talking a little about something else - about the guaranteed withdrawal of the tank from the system. Here we are talking about the defeat of the tracks of armored vehicles
            1. +1
              19 June 2019 11: 14
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              But Sergey was talking a little about something else - about the guaranteed decommissioning of the tank.

              Well, yes, this is not "guaranteed" but "high probability".

              In addition, it is worth considering here - when firing a direct fire with a HE shell, the fuse was put on a high-explosive one. And here is a "splinter". That is, when 122 shells are detonated closer than 18 meters, it is not a fact that the chassis was disabled.
    3. 0
      18 June 2019 17: 13
      [/ quote] Roughly speaking, in order for the Germans to completely destroy 40 Soviet tanks, they had to hit 100 of these combat vehicles in battle, but in order for our soldiers to destroy 40 German tanks irrevocably, they had to hit 150-200 or more. [quote]

      To put it mildly, a very funny statement. I would like a couple of proofs that such a panzerdivisia has 180 tanks wrecked, of which 40 tanks were burned / blown up, but despite the number of 140 tanks, the divisions have nothing to fight, well, or something like that. The same goes for Soviet tanks.
      1. +1
        18 June 2019 17: 20
        [/ quote] It seems that this gives the German tank a deafening advantage in the case of a duel "head-to-head". But if we assume on the basis of the statistics presented above that almost 70% of such duels took place at a distance of up to 600 m, and in 36,1% of cases, tanks fought at a distance not exceeding 400 m, then we understand that in such in general, a tactical situation unfavorable for the T-34, the superiority of the German tank is not at all as great as it might seem on the basis of armor-piercing tables. [quote]

        Without "like". It is a deafening advantage. Tanks did not fight at distances of up to 400m (mostly), this is an art PTO that fought with Soviet tanks at the indicated distances. The Germans have a longer direct shot distance and they pierce the T-34's forehead at this distance. In the T-34, everything is catastrophically worse, the range of a direct shot is shorter (that is, you cannot get into the turret) and its gun does not pierce the hull's forehead with a caliber projectile from any distance.
        1. +1
          18 June 2019 17: 30
          [/ quote] In other words, the Red Army, unlike the Wehrmacht, was late in deploying specialized anti-tank guns of high power, and this happened in connection with the relatively weak armoring of German equipment, since until 1943 there was simply no special need for them. [quote]

          Complete nonsense, otherwise, more than 30.000 old forty-fives (along with tank ones) as early as 41 would multiply a few Wehrmacht tanks by zero.
          The USSR could not massively produce long-barreled guns, because there was no equipment. When LL equipment came, only then, the mass production of M-42 and ZIS-2 began.
          1. +4
            18 June 2019 17: 36
            Quote: Jura 27
            Complete nonsense, otherwise, more than 30.000 old forty-fives (along with tank ones) as early as 41 would multiply a few Wehrmacht tanks by zero.

            Alas, the combat ability should be attached to the guns
      2. +1
        18 June 2019 17: 35
        Quote: Jura 27
        I would like a couple of proofs that such and such a company has 180 tanks destroyed, of which 40 tanks were burned / blown up, but in spite of the registered 140 tanks, there is nothing for the divisions to fight

        We read the data on the losses of German tanks at Kursk Heinrici Heinrici and Hauck. Zitadel (by DV Glantz and JM House "The Battle of Kursk"). ours - Tomazov
      3. +4
        18 June 2019 23: 29
        To put it mildly, a very funny statement. I would like a couple of proofs that such a panzerdivisia has 180 tanks wrecked, of which 40 tanks were burned / blown up, but despite the number of 140 tanks, the divisions have nothing to fight, well, or something like that. The same goes for Soviet tanks.

        Here's your answer using the example of the 39th Tank Regiment armed with "Panthers"!
        Early in the morning of July 5, 1943, German troops went on the offensive. At 8.15, the 10th tank brigade also went on the attack. In the first echelon, the regiment of the Great Germany division was moving, followed by the Panthers of the 39th Tank Regiment. In total, 268 tanks participated in the battle (four Pz.II, 12 Pz.III, 51 Pz.IV, three “tigers”, 12 flamethrower tanks and 184 Panthers) The purpose of the attack - the village of Cherkasskoye in the defense zone of the Soviet 6th Guards Army was well fortified, the approaches to it were covered by wire fences and minefields. Despite the stubborn resistance of the units of the 67th and 71st Guards Rifle Divisions and the counterattack of the tanks of the 245th separate tank regiment, in the evening it was occupied by German troops. Losses of the 39th tank regiment per day of the battle amounted to 18 "panthers".
        In the following days, the 10th Panzer Brigade continued to attack. During these battles, both its regiments and the infantry of the Great Germany division accompanying them suffered heavy losses. In addition, on the morning of July 7, even before joining the battle, the 39th tank regiment lost six “panthers” due to an engine fire. By evening, only 20 combat-ready “panthers” remained in the ranks of the regiment.
        In the battles of July 9-10, the combat power of the 39th tank regiment decreased even more. So, by the evening of July 10, only 10 combat-ready “panthers” remained in service, 25 tanks were irretrievably lost, 65 were under repair, and another 100 needed repair (56 of them were knocked out, and 44 were out of order due to breakdowns). By the evening of July 11, 38 Panthers were already combat-ready, 31 were irretrievably lost and 131 were in need of repair.

        Baryatinsky Mikhail Borisovich. German tanks in battle.
        By the evening of July 11, 38 Panthers were already combat-ready, 31 were irretrievably lost and 131 were in need of repair.

        131 needs REPAIR - they seem to be there, but they are not suitable for battle!
        So much for German arithmetic!
        1. -2
          19 June 2019 04: 48
          [/ quote] 131 needs REPAIR - they seem to be there, but they are not suitable for battle!
          Here you have all the German arithmetic! [Quote]

          Arithmetic completely refutes the message of the author, because a lot of raw cats just broke (or even burned out due to a fire in the MTO).
          1. +2
            19 June 2019 08: 24
            Quote: Jura 27
            a lot of raw cats just broke (or even burned out due to a fire in the MTO)

            The probability of a fire from a Soviet shell hit by you, as I understand it, is completely excluded. Burned because they were raw ...
            1. 0
              20 June 2019 04: 57
              Quote: Trapper7
              Quote: Jura 27
              a lot of raw cats just broke (or even burned out due to a fire in the MTO)

              The probability of a fire from a Soviet shell hit by you, as I understand it, is completely excluded. Burned because they were raw ...

              I'm talking about those fires that before joining the battle.
          2. +2
            19 June 2019 08: 48
            It does not matter! Any technique has broken! Especially new and not technologically proven. The tank were in the army. So the share of blame for their condition lies with the crews of cars. In 1941, the Red Army tankers with the T-34 and KV-1 experienced the same problems!
            So they rushed and became irretrievably lost! Now, such technical breakdowns began to affect the combat effectiveness of the Panzerwaffe.
            Evacuating the broken Panther was no easier than the Tiger. It was easier to blow up and throw the debris. Especially if the battlefield remains behind the enemy.
            Complete nonsense, otherwise, more than 30.000 old magpies (along with tank ones) back in 41g would have multiplied the few Wehrmacht tanks by zero.

            You forget the actions of the Wehrmacht in 1941 - at the impact of Soviet tank units, infantry divisions of 37mm saturated stood up in front of them and "merry-go-rounds" from Ju-87 collapsed.
            Tanks knocked out. But the Germans did not seek to throw their tanks into frontal strikes against Soviet tanks without the support of infantry units. And unfortunately, there were no special anti-tank units in 1941 in the Red Army (fighter-anti-tank artillery regiment, fighter-anti-tank artillery brigade). Mining was poorly applied until the fall - winter of 1941! In Kursk, minefields and other engineering barriers have contributed to the sustainability of our defense. Especially on the North face of the ARC.
            After the battles in the Alytus region on June 22, 1941, the command of the 3rd tank group, reporting to the headquarters of Army Group "Center", indicated -
            “In the evening of June 22, the 7th Panzer Division waged the largest tank battle during this war east of Olita against the 5th Panzer Division. Destroyed 70 tanks and 20 aircraft (at the airport) of the enemy. We lost 11 tanks. ”

            The Germans indicated ONLY irretrievably lost tanks. Soviet losses included tanks that were destroyed, wrecked, or abandoned due to technical problems (mainly T-28s - because these vehicles were very worn out and had virtually no life, they were used to fire from the spot).
            But they were abandoned and they became irretrievably lost to the Red Army!
            1. -1
              23 June 2019 16: 43
              Thanks, neighing. Especially about T, -28, which were still knocked out at 41.
              1. 0
                23 June 2019 22: 51
                Thanks, neighing. Especially about T, -28, which were still knocked out at 41.

                We have visited the ophthalmologist for a long time. - Are you our FUN?
                After the fighting in the region of Alytus 22 June 1941 year the command of the 3rd tank group, reporting to the headquarters of Army Group Center, indicated ...
                Or did the numbers not go to school? Ali are not strong in dates?
            2. jjj
              0
              11 July 2019 10: 36
              I would like to add that the Germans attacked 1941, 1942 and parts of 1943. Therefore, all of our wrecked, defective tanks got to the enemy after the battle. And they are automatically written off in irretrievable losses. When the Red Army began to attack, the picture changed. We could repair our wrecked tanks. And the Germans wrote off their
        2. 0
          19 June 2019 10: 18
          Quote: hohol95
          131 needs REPAIR - they seem to be there, but they are not suitable for battle!
          So much for German arithmetic!

          the case with panthers is too specific, whatever one may say, and most of them in those events did not even manage to enter the battle. It seems to me that the most indicative statistics in the battles of 42 years.
          1. 0
            19 June 2019 13: 44
            I do not think that in 1943 the Germans changed the calculation and distribution of equipment according to the degree of defeat! The only thing that saved them in 1941 and 1942 was the better maintainability of THREE and FOUR in comparison with the "cat family"! Their design had already been worked out, and all the mechanics in the repair units of tank units knew how to repair these tanks!
            Tanks were less idle in repairs and returned to the unit faster. also contributed to the defeat of the Red Army. The destroyed German equipment remained on the battlefield by them and captured. Then it was calmly evacuated and repaired! In 1943 and beyond, a lot of equipment requiring repair, the Germans simply had to abandon because of the inability to evacuate it to the rear for repair. They themselves began to retreat, a prophet very quickly! It’s a pity not on all sections of the Eastern Front.
  2. 0
    18 June 2019 12: 25
    Hold me seven! Now there will be a hundred thousand comments on the topic discussed many times. soldier
  3. +19
    18 June 2019 12: 49
    In 1944, sometimes during the repair of the T-34, trophy skating rinks from Panther were installed due to the lack of spare parts. If two Panther discs are twisted on the hub from a stamped T-34 roller, they pass quite normally. The diameter is almost the same. 800mm for the T-34 and 820 for the Panther, the width with the specified assembly option is also almost the same.

    1. +7
      18 June 2019 13: 29
      PPC photo amused. 4 skating rinks and all different recourse
      1. +13
        18 June 2019 13: 33
        More examples of Panther rollers.


      2. +2
        18 June 2019 14: 30
        Quote: "If you want to live, you will not be so hot." End of quote.
        Well done Russian!
  4. The comment was deleted.
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. +7
    18 June 2019 13: 04
    Andrey, once again I thank you for the excellent, high-quality, reasoned and accessible material presented!
    I wanted to ask, are you going to release your work as a separate book?
    If so, it would be great.
    With great pleasure I would read it again and put it in my home library ...
    1. +5
      18 June 2019 13: 12
      Quote: fighter angel
      I wanted to ask, are you going to release your work as a separate book?
      If so, it would be great.

      No, I'm not going, for the simple reason that no one will print it, alas.
      1. +2
        18 June 2019 13: 36
        Andrew! You are not right! It all depends on how to file, and who to contact. The main thing is to give the goods !!! And also it is CORRECT to CHOOSE the TITLE and prepare the REGISTRATION!
      2. +7
        18 June 2019 13: 36
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        No, I'm not going, for the simple reason that no one will print it, alas.

        In vain. Throw a cry for VO, and we all the world collect money. You have a book with personal autographs for grateful readers. How many we collect, so many copies of the circulation and order.
        1. +4
          18 June 2019 15: 29
          Quote: vvvjak
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          No, I'm not going, for the simple reason that no one will print it, alas.

          In vain. Throw a cry for VO, and we all the world collect money. You have a book with personal autographs for grateful readers. How many we collect, so many copies of the circulation and order.

          I support this initiative for all 100.
          1. +5
            18 June 2019 15: 39
            By the way, this method is used by many people who have talent and knowledge, but do not have finances. There is a circle of lovers of this topic, they gather around a source of information on the topic, and then the author of the source, collecting all his notes and a note, analyzing comments and taking into account errors, is already publishing a book. And readers can help him in this. Moreover, Andrei Nikolaevich could publish a series of excellent books on the history of steam armored ships of Russia and about tanks.
            Think Andrei Nikolaevich.
            1. +3
              18 June 2019 16: 10
              Quote: Trapper7
              Think Andrei Nikolaevich.

              I'll think about it :))))) And, maybe, I will even turn to the VO administration for advice and help.
              Thank you! feel
              1. +1
                18 June 2019 17: 43
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I'll think about it :))

                collect and publish your book on the battle of Gogland electronically - you have it best ... hi
  7. +2
    18 June 2019 13: 09





    Here is from the German manuals for "Tigers" and "Panthers", advantageous and disadvantageous distances and angles of fire. The first picture is for the "Tiger", the second for the "Panther" As you can see for head-on shooting, there are no 2000m or even 1000m, but there are 800m and 600m. The Germans considered it possible to hit the side from a 76mm cannon for the Tiger from 1500m, and for the Panther from 2000m
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +3
      18 June 2019 14: 33
      The author writes:
      it means “Panther” could easily destroy T-34 from a distance of 1,5-2 km.
      A German textbook for some reason does not confirm this! How so?
      Here's another:
      German armored vehicles massively installed 75-mm KwK 40 with a barrel length of 43 and 48 calibers. The speed of the caliber armor-piercing projectile of these guns was 770 and 792 m / s, respectively, which was quite enough for a confident destruction of the T-34 even in the frontal projection at a distance of up to 1000 m, however, the frontal part of the hull reliably penetrated only 500, possibly 700 m. But the 75-mm KwK 42, mounted on the Panther, had a barrel length of 70 calibers and reported to its caliber armor-piercing projectile an initial speed of 935 m / s. Of course, the T-34 armor did not at all protect against such attacks, and at the range of a direct shot the Soviet tank made its way into any projection: one could only count on a rebound, possible only if the circumstances were extremely successful (for the T-34).

      But the Germans did not think so, who is wrong?
      1. 0
        18 June 2019 14: 45
        In the end, Andrei, come in yourself, if you weren’t, a lot has been posted there on your topic (on tank).
        http://virtpilot.org/другая литература
      2. +1
        18 June 2019 15: 42
        Quote: motorized infantryman
        The author writes:
        it means “Panther” could easily destroy T-34 from a distance of 1,5-2 km.
        A German textbook for some reason does not confirm this! How so?

        Article did not try to read? Completely, and not grabbing fragments that you liked. Generally it is written further
        However, this approach is too one-sided, since it does not take into account the possibilities of sights of armored vehicles of that time. But it did not provide some reliable defeat of enemy tanks at such great distances.

        Concluding the discussion - note the thickness of the armor of Soviet tanks in the German leaflet
        1. +1
          18 June 2019 18: 27
          I read an article, I don’t criticize, but ask. That’s how it turns out, if the Germans could easily destroy from 1500m-2000m, and the table given by the author of the article gives good (if not excellent) convergence with German instructions (600m-800m), then obviously it’s not about sights (or not only in them). Then it turns out that the battles were fought at more or less equivalent distances, where there were no Overwhelming superiority in performance characteristics of weapons on either side. And the difference in losses is significant, maybe the methods for using these weapons differed? Maybe the training of personnel was not equivalent? There is no complex reflection and reduction of the problem to the caliber and thickness of the armor, etc., it may look like a kind of bias (free or involuntary). If a false factor is used in the argument, or the true one is not used, then the conclusion is also likely to be not entirely correct. I think so. (with)

          PS At the expense of the thickness of the armor in the German manuals, here I really don't know what they were guided by, maybe according to the principle: "Ask for more, they will give as much as necessary." In any case, they had enough opportunities to measure the thickness of the armor of enemy tanks.
          1. 0
            19 June 2019 08: 30
            Quote: motorized infantryman
            where there was no overwhelming superiority in the performance characteristics of weapons on either side. And the difference in losses is significant, maybe the methods for using these weapons differed?

            The author also says about this that despite the stated theoretical (paper) data, no one actually had superiority. And the difference in losses is explained both by different methods of accounting for losses, and by the fact that more powerful guns of German tanks could more likely make our tank unsuitable for repair. Plus, the Germans have an excellent rembase and a very large number of light tanks with us. Agree that the duel of t-70 with t4 almost does not leave a chance for our tank. I'm not talking about panthers anymore.
    3. +5
      18 June 2019 15: 34
      Quote: motorized infantryman
      As you can see for head-on shooting, there are no 2000m or even 1000m, but there are 800m and 600m. The Germans considered it possible to hit the side with a 76mm cannon for the Tiger from 1500m, and for the Panther from 2000m

      Everything is correct. The author just writes about this: although the ballistics of 88-mm and 75-mm theoretically made it possible to penetrate the T-34 from a kilometer onwards, the Germans fired from just 600-800 meters. Because from these distances not only armor penetration was provided, but also hit in the T-34 with the first shots.
      That is why the German manual also indicates the range of fire of 600-800 m - this is not the distance of penetration of armor, but the range of a sure hit.
  8. +4
    18 June 2019 13: 10
    Quote: fighter angel
    Andrey, once again I thank you for the excellent, high-quality, reasoned and accessible material presented!
    I wanted to ask, are you going to release your work as a separate book?
    If so, it would be great.
    With great pleasure I would read it again and put it in my home library ...

    I fully support fighter angel (Alexei): great job!
    I look forward to continuing ...
  9. -1
    18 June 2019 13: 44
    Quote: fighter angel
    Yehat
    "... are you kidding again?"
    Yes, the Lord is with you! And there was no thought.
    You do not like to simply reveal your sources of information, and that’s it!
    "... you can find such sources yourself."
    Yes of course we can...

    you should change your nickname to "woodpecker", just right
    https://bookz.ru/authors/vasilii-krisov/na-samoh_601/page-4-na-samoh_601.html
    here it’s just described how in the Kursk arch HE shells were shot at by tigers. although there are no direct links to the gaps nearby, but the su-122 couldn’t lay 100% of the shells right on target.
    a case is also described when the cumulative blast wave from a su-122 volley to a tiger simply soldered the tower.
    1. +3
      18 June 2019 13: 55
      Quote: yehat
      a case is also described when the cumulative blast wave from a su-122 volley to a tiger simply soldered the tower.

      Sergey, it’s still a memoir, not a documentary, you have to be very careful here, and besides, our T-4 are often mistaken for Tiger. And most importantly - it is still written
      The blast wave reverberated, mixed the dust with smoke, hiding the battlefield for a few seconds, but I still saw the flames on the tower of the enemy tank! And the second flash - from a direct hit by a projectile fired by gunner Levanova Lesha Kuzin!

      и
      - Battery! On the head tank! Aim at the tower! Focused! The fire! - the Shevchenko team was distributed in the headset to all the crews at once.
      From the volley strike from the "tiger" blew off the tower! Outlining a semicircle with a gun in the air, she flew to the ground! And then the whole car blazed with a crimson-black flame! "Tiger" was burning!

      This is completely different
      1. -1
        18 June 2019 13: 58
        Well, yes, the lyrics and the clearly edited picture of the battle.
        however, I insist that there are 2 official reports on the use of su-122 back in 1942.
        just looking for them is still a mess.
        By the way, at that time there were no cumulative shells at all in the units.
        1. -1
          18 June 2019 16: 17
          Merkava with front-wheel drive has the same problems. When a projectile falls near the leading front wheel, the gearbox suffers. They simply wedge. It is the same with the Tiger in full. A powerful RP charge is quite capable of overrunning the gearbox
        2. -1
          18 June 2019 16: 50
          Quote: yehat
          Well, yes, the lyrics and the clearly edited picture of the battle.
          however, I insist that there are 2 official reports on the use of su-122 back in 1942.
          just looking for them is still a mess.
          By the way, at that time there were no cumulative shells at all in the units.

          Do not be fooled, the installation batch of SU-122 was sent to the center of self-propelled artillery in January 1943 (the third) years and only then to the front.
      2. 0
        18 June 2019 17: 48
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Sergey, this is still a memoir, not a documentary

        What's the difference?
        The governing documents ranked the ammunition "in terms of anti-tank capability" as follows: armor-piercing, concrete-piercing, PF, shrapnel with a "strike" setting.

        The absence of armor-piercing was no reason not to shoot. So they definitely shot. But whether such a fire was effective is a completely different question.
    2. +1
      18 June 2019 15: 07
      Yehat
      Well, if there’s a conversation about who needs to change which nickname,
      in response to your offer, I suggest you also change your nickname to "Brehat".
      Consonantly, and for the most part you are just characterized.
      And for the future:
      Do not be rude first, and then do not get an answer.
      1. -2
        18 June 2019 15: 11
        Quote: fighter angel
        Well, if the conversation started

        you reduce all talk to that. that you start a personal attack.
        stop this booth. I’m not a library
  10. +1
    18 June 2019 14: 15
    Thank you, Andrew!
    The Red Army and the Wehrmacht in 1943 exchanged places in the attacking capabilities of their tanks and anti-tank missiles, and in the reservation of tanks. Missed the moment for rearmament in the pursuit of quantity and quality of manufactured equipment. The lateness with the development of the 85-mm anti-tank missile system, the D-44 and the competitors went to the test after the Battle of Kursk was especially incomprehensible, and the cannon was brought to standard condition and put into service only in the post-war period.
    1. 0
      18 June 2019 15: 34
      Quote: Potter
      Delay with the development of 85-mm PTO is especially incomprehensible

      And it was always incomprehensible to me "to withdraw from production in connection with the excessive power of the weapon." How can it be overly powerful? It can either reliably hit enemy armored vehicles or not.
      1. +6
        18 June 2019 15: 43
        Quote: Trapper7
        How can it be excessively powerful?

        Expensive and complex weapon, instead of which you can release more simple and cheap.
        1. 0
          19 June 2019 06: 52
          I completely agree. I read somewhere that up to 1941% of 80mm trunks went into marriage in 57. When there is nothing to arm infantry divisions (in 41-42), the choice of 1 ZIS-2 or 5 ZIS-3 is obvious.
  11. -3
    18 June 2019 14: 29
    I grieve.
    The author again writes about "the highest (!!) share (!) Probability". Dear author, what is probability in your opinion?
    Probability (P) is a characteristic of confidence in something, or uncertainty. The probability is a number that can take values ​​from 0 to 1. Let the probability of hitting the tank be 0,5 (P = 0,5). Then what is in the opinion of those who use this widely used in popular Russian speech "fraction of probability"?
    It's a shame, comrades. We are not read only by friends.
    1. +1
      18 June 2019 14: 43
      Quote: iouris
      It's a shame, comrades.

      Not at all ashamed.
      Quote: iouris
      The author again writes about "the highest (!!) share (!) Probability". Dear author, what is probability in your opinion?

      We take your definition of probability
      Quote: iouris
      Probability is a number that can take values ​​from 0 to 1.

      Let's remember what the word "share" means. We open the Ozhegov dictionary and read
      Share is part of something

      Since probability is inherent in measurability (it’s a number!), The "fraction of probability" is a completely consistent construction of the Russian language.
      Now we take the word "highest", which is a form of the word "high." The latter, according to the same Ozhegov, among others, matters:
      Exceeding the average level, the average rate, significant. Outstanding in value, very important, honorable

      From this we see that the commonly used expression "the highest degree of probability" is quite literate and has every right to life in the Russian language.
      And for petty nagging, and even erroneous, you really should be ashamed
      1. +1
        18 June 2019 16: 30
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And for petty nitpicking, and even wrong...

        The comrade, apparently a mathematician or, at least, believes that he understands it.
        By comrade iouris, it was meant that in the theory of probability, the probability means a "probability measure", i.e. a measure on a set of events or subsets on a set of events and taking a value from 0 to 1. That is, speaking of probability, we already mean a fraction of a set of events. Thus, from the point of view of iouris, there is pleonasm in your article. On the other hand, not all mathematicians, and the probability can be understood as the possibility of the occurrence of some event. In general, this is all nonsense ...
        Thanks for the article. Despite the somewhat ridiculous name of the series ("Why did the T-34 lose to the PzKpfw III, but won over the Tigers and Panthers), the articles are quite interesting.
        1. +1
          18 June 2019 17: 40
          Quote: merlin
          By comrade iouris, it was meant that in the theory of probability, the probability means a "probability measure", i.e. a measure on a set of events or subsets on a set of events and taking a value from 0 to 1. That is, speaking of probability, we already mean a fraction of a set of events.

          I kind of agree, but what's wrong, for example, in the phrase "we divided half of an apple into three equal parts"? :)))) That is, you can divide into parts not only the whole, but also a part of the whole, if this part has an independent meaning ... As in the case of half an apple or probability :)))
          Quote: merlin
          In general, this is all nonsense ...

          I agree:)))
          1. +1
            18 June 2019 20: 13
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            That is, not only the whole can be divided into shares, but also a part of the whole, if this part has an independent meaning. As in the case of half an apple or likelihood :)))

            Everything is possible, if carefully.
            In general, your difficulty is easy to explain. Probability is always an event; it can be evaluated qualitatively or quantitatively. Although, on the other hand, quantity can be added to quality in the form of a share. Actually, in my opinion, this is precisely the case in the article.
            But if the probability is initially quantitative, then it turns out that the event itself is divided into shares ... Well, for example, a girl has a probability n "to get pregnant." Let's add a fraction of the probability - it turned out that the probability n is "a little pregnant". I somehow don't care, but folk wisdom claims that it is very difficult to do this)))
      2. -3
        18 June 2019 17: 40
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        "a fraction of the likelihood" is a completely consistent construction of the Russian language.

        however technically this is illiterate ... hi so either high or highest probability ...
        1. +1
          18 June 2019 18: 08
          Quote: ser56

          however technically this is illiterate ... hi so either high or highest probability ...

          You probably don’t know, colleague, but probability theory, as well as mathematics, do not belong to the technical sciences. This is the first.
          And secondly, in the technical literature, this term also occurs. You just need to read more technical literature.
          1. 0
            19 June 2019 16: 34
            Quote: merlin
            You probably don’t know, colleague, but probability theory, as well as mathematics, do not belong to the technical sciences. This is the first.

            you are mistaken - the special chapters of mathematics are an integral part (basis) of many technical disciplines, the same probability theory is the basis of the theory of errors in metrology, and TFKP is essentially a part of radio electronics, without differential. partial technical equations do not count many technical problems, for example radiation transfer ... I will say this - your idea of ​​technology is peculiar to the construction faculty ... request
            Quote: merlin
            And secondly, in the technical literature, this term also occurs.

            can you reference? hi
            Quote: merlin
            You just need to read more technical literature.

            I’ve been writing it for a long time ... feel
            1. 0
              19 June 2019 16: 52
              Quote: ser56
              you are mistaken - the special chapters of mathematics are an integral part (basis) of many technical disciplines,

              Tell me, colleague, is the Russian language, as a "special chapter" of linguistics, an integral part of many technical disciplines? And technical science?
              Quote: ser56
              can you reference?

              It is possible, but a little later with your permission.
              Quote: ser56
              I’ve been writing it for a long time ...

              And How? Successfully? Or more about turbulent fluid currents in ceramic vessels?
              1. 0
                19 June 2019 17: 11
                Quote: merlin
                Tell me, colleague, is the Russian language, as a "special chapter" of linguistics, an integral part of many technical disciplines? And technical science?

                You probably think that you wrote something reasonable - I will disappoint ... request
                For the technical sciences (and the natural sciences) in which language the articles / reports are written is not essential, but mat. the apparatus is significant ... see examples above ... hi
                Quote: merlin
                It is possible, but a little later with your permission.

                you are a free person, you can fulfill a promise, you can not ... ... request
                Quote: merlin
                And How? Successfully?

                Yes, it is quite... feel
                Quote: merlin
                Or more about turbulent fluid currents in ceramic vessels?

                1) be surprised, but the problem of the motion of a conducting fluid in dielectric boundaries is not very trivial and has still not been solved in general form, especially in the presence of pulsed fields ... request
                2) I'm an expert in another field, if you are curious - write to the mail ... one is in the profile ... wink
                1. 0
                  19 June 2019 17: 42
                  Quote: ser56

                  You probably think that you wrote something reasonable

                  What are you ?! On the contrary, I’m sure that you wrote nonsense and just wanted to set the right path, but I see that Galileo’s words are empty for you, and you haven’t even heard about Popper’s criteria. Sadly ...
                  Quote: ser56

                  1) be surprised, but the problem of the motion of a conducting fluid in dielectric boundaries is not very trivial and has still not been solved in general form, especially in the presence of pulsed fields ...

                  Impulse fields in the restroom?)))
                  And I look at you a great original)))
                  Quote: ser56

                  2) I am a specialist in another field

                  I already understood that you are studying the problems of increasing the fine dispersion of diatomic hydrogen oxide mechanically. It is quite enough
                  1. 0
                    19 June 2019 18: 02
                    Quote: merlin
                    I’m sure that you wrote nonsense and just wanted to set the right path,

                    I did not see the arguments, and the desire to teach you is not supported by authority ... bully
                    Quote: merlin
                    Impulse fields in the restroom?)))

                    Quote: merlin
                    an empty sound for you,

                    you didn’t understand my answer, well, ladies - everyone understands to the best of their intellect ... request
                    Quote: merlin
                    You are studying the problems of increasing the fineness of diatomic hydrogen oxide mechanically.

                    it looks like you are a schoolboy ... hi
                    1. 0
                      19 June 2019 18: 33
                      Quote: ser56
                      I did not see the arguments

                      I save the arguments and facts for smart people. I prefer not to argue with Equus asinus.
                      All the best to you in your hard work of imitating vigorous scientific activity.
                      1. 0
                        20 June 2019 15: 24
                        Quote: merlin
                        I save the arguments and facts for smart people.

                        like a schoolboy ... bully
  12. +3
    18 June 2019 14: 31
    What is the direct shot range? This is the largest sighting range, when shooting at which the average trajectory does not rise above the height of the target.
    If, after this phrase, the author had taken an interest in the values ​​of this very range of a direct shot from the German and Soviet anti-tank guns, his reflections would have to take on a completely different character.
    Direct shot 7,5-cm-PaK 40 - 2000 m.
    8,8 direct shot range cm Panzerjägerkanone 43 - 2500 m.
    Therefore, the German gunners did not need to solve any geometric problems - they had tabular armor penetration for the range of a direct shot.
    Therefore, the German gunners fought at a distance that ensured a sure hit of the target, the range of the direct shot did not bother them at all.
    For comparison, the ZiS 3 cannon has a direct firing range when firing a long-range high-explosive fragmentation grenade and 820 m armor-piercing projectile (at a target height of 2 m). Therefore, the Soviet artillerymen task was much more difficult.
    Accordingly, we need the same table as for the Soviet tanks for the German, as without this it is not clear, and from what distance the Soviet gunners fired.
    In addition, an analysis of the effectiveness of armor-piercing shells is also necessary, then the picture will become even more interesting.
    1. +3
      18 June 2019 14: 53
      Quote: Undecim
      If, after this phrase, the author had taken an interest in the values ​​of this very range of a direct shot from the German and Soviet anti-tank guns, his reflections would have to take on a completely different character.
      Direct shot 7,5-cm-PaK 40 - 2000 m.
      8,8 direct shot range cm Panzerjägerkanone 43 - 2500 m.

      Agas. Only now, if you still gave yourself the trouble to think about what you are quoting, then you would understand that the direct shot range DOES NOT have a constant value and varies depending on the height of the target. By the way, the direct shot range for Pak 40 is very different in sources - often data on the order of 900-930 m for caliber armor-piercing projectile, but for as much as a whole 128-mm tank gun is given somewhere as many 1270 m.
      I believe that the actual distance of the battle is excellent evidence of who is right in our small dispute.
      1. -3
        18 June 2019 17: 00
        No one waited for another answer. Again, an attempt to argue on technical issues, the possession of which is not up to par.
        I do not write comments without thinking. For an anti-tank gun, the direct range is given for the target, taking into account its (gun) destination. Therefore, for Soviet guns, the range of a direct shot was given at a target 2 meters high. To make sure of this, open the service manual of any gun.
        Similarly for the German.
        But for different ammunition, the value of the range of the direct shot was different, which is logical, they had different ballistics and, accordingly, trajectories different in clarity.
        So your objections, as always - pathetic but not in the case.
        1. +3
          18 June 2019 18: 03
          Quote: Undecim
          No one waited for another answer. Again, an attempt to argue on technical issues, the possession of which is not up to par.

          Oh well:)))
          Quote: Undecim
          I do not write comments without thinking. For an anti-tank gun, the range of a direct shot is given on the target, taking into account its purpose.

          Do you know what your problem is? You are constantly replacing knowledge with guesses about them. You found for Pak 40 the direct shot range of the 2 000 m, and you yourself decided that this is a tank-sized target.
          Quote: Undecim
          Similarly for the German.

          No question, refer to the relevant German document.
          Quote: Undecim
          So your objections, as always - pathetic but not in the case.

          Let's clarify :))))
          There is, for example, such a gun - 125-mm D-81 Shot a 5,7 kg sub-caliber projectile with an initial speed 1 800 m / s. So she has a direct shot range at the target 2 m high - 2 100 m. Http: //www.e-reading.club/chapter.php/1005414/10/Tehnika_i_vooruzhenie_2000_07.html
          You claim that the German Pak, with its half the initial speed, had the range of a direct shot of 2 000. And I have a strong feeling that you trite this figure out of wikipedia, where it is written
          Direct shot range: 2000 m (Alexander Borisovich Shirokorad. God of war of the Third Reich. 2003. C.112)

          And the wiki lies to you impudently, because Shirokorad has NO Pak 40 direct shot range in this book. For Pak 38 - 930 m - please, for 128-mm KwK 44 - direct shot range at the height of the target 2 m for the 1270 m armor-piercing machine - please.
          That is, the figure you declared is in direct contradiction with the known data about the direct firing of other guns, and the only thing I could do was to assume that this is a larger target than a tank.
          But if you insist, and even accuse me of pompous ignorance - if you please. Submit relevant links or documents proving your case.
          1. -6
            18 June 2019 19: 01
            I do not use Wikipedia and Shirokorad, unlike you. By the way, remember all our previous discussions. I have always confirmed my statements with corresponding links to special literature and never, unlike you, have not operated on guesses. There will be a link to you on the target at what height the Germans considered the direct range of the shot.
            1. -5
              18 June 2019 21: 14
              Judging by the stubborn minuscule of critical comments, the author has already formed a group of fans who believe that he gives out exclusively infallible truths. Thus, one can clearly observe how the accessibility of the dissemination of information helps to fill the information space with information that is disputed, incorrect, and misinterpreted. Then, over time, as today, people are surprised at all kinds of historical myths and misconceptions.
              1. +3
                19 June 2019 08: 51
                Quote: Undecim
                Judging by the stubborn minuscule of critical comments, the author has already formed a group of fans who believe that he gives out exclusively infallible truths.

                This is not the case. The fact is that you criticize the author without actually giving real data. Suppose the author writes that the range of a direct shot is 100 meters (this is just an example), and you say that it is not, not 100 but 150, but in confirmation of this, bring nothing, that is, these are just words. Indiscriminate criticism without evidence. Bring them, respect the author and other forum participants and there will be no minuses. There will be pluses and thanks from everyone.
                1. -3
                  19 June 2019 11: 51
                  Your educational commentary is somewhat off the mark, as I, firstly, always try to provide the maximum on information sources, and secondly, I respect both the authors and the participants who deserve it.
                  This can be easily verified by looking at my comments under all the nicknames that were on my site. But sometimes for this there is simply no technical possibility.
                  As for the cons, they are interesting to me precisely as a qualitative characteristic of the audience, no more.
                  1. 0
                    20 June 2019 09: 05
                    Quote: Undecim
                    Your educational comment is somewhat wrong, since, first, I always try to provide maximum information sources.

                    And where is the confirmation of the information that
                    Quote: Undecim
                    Direct shot 7,5-cm-PaK 40 - 2000 m.
                    8,8 direct shot range cm Panzerjägerkanone 43 - 2500 m.

                    You take to teach me:
                    Quote: Undecim
                    If the author, after this phrase, asked about the values ​​of this very range of a direct shot

                    Give the data ... Where is the confirmation?
            2. +2
              19 June 2019 11: 13
              Quote: Undecim
              There will be a link to you and to what target the Germans considered the direct shot range.

              Well, then we continue
          2. +4
            18 June 2019 19: 09
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            You have found a range of 40 meters for the Pak 2

            This is apparently someone misunderstood or incorrectly translated.

            It looks like we are talking about "direct fire range" (limited by the design of sighting ones) or about "maximum firing range" (derived primarily from the size of the space to be shot through)

            For example, the ZiS-3 had a "longest firing range" with direct fire at tanks was 1.5 km



            And the very concept of "greatest" was introduced for the following reason:

            1. +1
              19 June 2019 11: 14
              It is quite possible, as I think, you are absolutely right.
          3. +2
            18 June 2019 22: 19
            I want to advise the author, so directly you can not compare anything. Never just fight tanks and fighters. Artillery against them.
            Such an event as an offensive. involves massaging forces and means in a certain place at a certain time. AT artillery of that time did not have the mobility that is now. And anti-tank artillery (not anti-battalion anti-tank equipment), with 9 cannons covering the front of the regiment’s defense sector (even if you have approximately calculated tank hazard directions) is very difficult. This anti-tank artillery is usually located behind the first position (this is the battalion on it).
            And now imagine what dense artillery fire our fighters conducted on the breakthrough site during the escort (OV, PSO,), aircraft and artillery strikes on retractable reserves (including anti-tank missiles).
            So that not everything reaches the frontiers. and not everything will remain in the PT areas. It is necessary to comprehensively approach this confrontation.
            And yes, the direct confrontation of the gun to the tank as 1 to 3-4 (but this rarely happens.)
            1. +2
              19 June 2019 17: 50
              Quote: chenia
              I want to advise the author, so directly you can not compare anything. Never just fight tanks and fighters. Artillery against them.

              Thank you, Captain Obvious :)))
              Quote: chenia
              And yes, the direct confrontation of the gun to the tank as 1 to 3-4 (but this rarely happens.)

              let's clarify - about 80% of all tanks in the Second World War were hit by anti-tank artillery or cannon tanks and self-propelled guns. Based on this, I believe, the comparison is quite legitimate.
      2. +1
        18 June 2019 17: 36
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        varies depending on the height of the target.

        they gave us a military commissar for a tank 2,4 m high ... bully
    2. +3
      18 June 2019 17: 31
      Quote: Undecim
      Direct shot 7,5-cm-PaK 40 - 2000 m.
      8,8 direct shot range cm Panzerjägerkanone 43 - 2500 m.


      DPV This cannot be. At T-12 DPV-1700 m
      1. 0
        18 June 2019 19: 05
        At T12, according to Guideline p. 221 for a target of 2 m with an 1880 round projectile, for a target of 2,7 m - 2130 m.
  13. -2
    18 June 2019 14: 37
    Quote: Potter
    Missed the moment for rearmament in the pursuit of quantity and quality of manufactured equipment. The lateness with the development of the 85-mm anti-tank missile system, the D-44 and competitors went to the test after the Battle of Kursk was especially incomprehensible, and the so-needed gun was brought to standard condition and adopted for service

    yes there were quite sufficient developments even before the war - and quite powerful anti-tank guns were produced, and tank guns quite sufficient like a 107mm gun, these developments simply turned off for various reasons
    and do not forget that the industry in 41-42 years was engaged in a significant part of the evacuation and restoration of production, and not the introduction of new products, because in the Red Army there are a lot of delays with the introduction of the release of products. This applies to cannons, and tanks, and much more.
    I also note that anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns are more demanding on the quality of equipment and personnel in production.
  14. -1
    18 June 2019 14: 46
    Good article. Thanks to the author.
    The Fritz artillery turned out to be better, and therefore we have more permanent losses. And in that situation they did what they could, but still the Germans had high industrial potential. Therefore, the result is the same. I do not think that the military did not want more powerful artillery; industry simply could not.
  15. +3
    18 June 2019 14: 51
    Perhaps the versatility of the ZIS-3 was determined by the face of our anti-tank artillery. To create a specialized VET (without a tractor), as it did not make sense (at least until 1943).
    Develop the nomenclature of BP, and this system covered the requirements for anti-tank artillery (including the implementation of other, in principle, the basic functions for field artillery).

    After the Kursk Bulge (when the anti-tank systems properties of the ZIS-3 were already clearly insufficient), the war went in a different direction, and the specialized anti-tank missile remained at the ZIS-2 level (the guns and ammunition which were finally brought to the proper level).
  16. +4
    18 June 2019 15: 04
    However, 40-50 mm of armor already presented some problem for it, therefore 1942 developed an improved model of “forty-five” with a barrel in length of 68,6 caliber - this is M-42.

    There are persistent rumors that the M-42 was launched by the development before the war - as directed by Kulik, as a safety net in case of failure with the ZiS-2. And Kulik, who was always cautious, was not mistaken in this case.
    Of course, there was an excellent 85-mm anti-aircraft gun 52-K, capable of confidently hitting German tanks at a direct-fire range, but there were few of these guns - for all the years of production, from 1939 to 1945, they were produced 14 units, and They desperately needed our air defense.

    Not everything is so simple ... ©
    Air defense did not need guns on their own. The air defense needed complete batteries with a POISO kit.
    And since the production of PUAZO lagged behind the production of 52-K "battery kits", some of the 85-mm guns were produced in a simplified version just for the anti-tank gunnery.
    The shells turned out to be formidable, but it quickly became clear that due to the "mortar" ballistics of the 122-mm howitzer, getting into an enemy tank from it was very difficult.

    Very hard - This is a big understatement.
    In April, 1943 was tested by firing cumulative shells at the body of a captured Tiger from a SU-122 self-propelled gun. This self-propelled gun was armed with an X-NUMX-mm howitzer M-122 with ballistics close to the U-30 tank howitzer. But None of the 15 shots fired from the 400 distance were hit.
    1. -2
      18 June 2019 17: 34
      Quote: Alexey RA
      that part of the 85-mm guns was produced in a simplified version just for the VET.

      and in 41 they armed anti-tank brigades ...
      Quote: Alexey RA
      It is very hard - this is a big understatement.

      the very idea of ​​shooting direct-fire howitzers from tanks looks strange .... hi
      1. +2
        18 June 2019 19: 19
        Quote: ser56
        and in 41 they armed anti-tank brigades ...

        EMNIP, SW. M. Svirin wrote that at least one of the iptabr-41 had just 52 anti-aircraft guns with the entire body kit.
        However, the 85-mm was still planned as a temporary solution - according to the permanent staff of the iptabr, they were to receive a 107-mm anti-tank gun. Those same 70-caliber monsters with armor penetration "160 mm from one kilometer".
        Quote: ser56
        the very idea of ​​shooting direct-fire howitzers at tanks looks strange ...

        For lack of stamp ... smile
        The Germans also, in great need, fired from howitzers at tanks.
        1. -2
          18 June 2019 21: 13
          According to the state, the 1941 anti-tank brigade was supposed to have 48 76-mm F-22 guns, 48 ​​52-k anti-tank guns without a POISO, 24 107-mm guns and 16 37-mm anti-aircraft guns. in 2 shelves equally. And a lot of anti-tank mines in equipping an engineering mine battalion. In fact, as a rule, three-inch prevailed, with extremely insufficient means of mechanical tension.
          By 1943 about 50 107-mm guns remained in service, which were combined into 3 heavy anti-tank regiments, 15 in each.
          Well, the 52-k was part of the anti-tank regiments of different states, the anti-tank divisions of the tank and mechanized corps until the appearance of a sufficient number of Su-85. That is, until 1944.
        2. 0
          19 June 2019 16: 28
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The Germans also, in great need, fired from howitzers at tanks.

          I'm talking about direct fire ... the creation of NZO is normal, but expensive, although it cuts off the infantry ....
          1. -1
            19 June 2019 19: 19
            Quote: ser56
            I'm talking about direct fire ...

            And I about her. It is unlikely that the Germans introduced armor-piercing and cumulative shells into the le.FH18 amphibious armor for staging NZO and PZO. smile
            1. 0
              20 June 2019 15: 26
              Quote: Alexey RA
              It is unlikely that the Germans

              they had a cigarette butt on the T-4 ... bully
    2. +2
      18 June 2019 17: 40
      Quote: Alexey RA
      There are persistent rumors that the M-42 was launched by the development before the war - as directed by Kulik, as a safety net in case of failure with the ZiS-2. And Kulik, who was always cautious, was not mistaken in this case.


      For battalion artillery, yes, but as a VET from a regiment and above it is not suitable. The effectiveness of such systems should exceed the effective range of machine gun fire, and significantly ..
    3. +1
      18 June 2019 18: 25
      Quote: Alexey RA
      It is rumored that M-42 was started by the development even before the war - as instructed by Kulik

      readily believe :))))
      Quote: Alexey RA
      It is very hard - this is a big understatement.

      Nuuu, they still sometimes fell, as the Su-122 still periodically used as anti-tank :)))
  17. -2
    18 June 2019 15: 16
    Quote: iouris
    Probability (P) is a characteristic of certainty or uncertainty. Probability is a number that can take values ​​from 0 to 1.
    ...
    Then what is in the opinion of those who use this widely used in popular Russian speech "fraction of probability"?

    based on your definitions, the share will be
    1) share of confidence
    2) fractions of a number
    So decide about what you like best.
    and there is nothing to be ashamed of if you cannot choose
    My cat can also choose between sausages and fish for several minutes, sits and twists its head.
  18. 0
    18 June 2019 15: 53
    Interesting article.

    Such ammunition could well hit the forehead of the 80-mm T-IVH armored plate at a distance of the order of 500 m, the ZiS-2 could well withstand even the Tiger tanks. But the truly mass production of ZiS-2 in the war years was not established - in 1941, only 141 guns were produced,


    Andrew. Just the other day, you recalled in one of the articles that in the 1941 year in the USSR they released 371 57 mm. anti-tank gun. In the 1942 year, these guns were not produced at all, and in the 1943 year they resumed production of the ZIS-2 and over the years released them in the amount of 1855 pieces. In this same article, you mention that in the 1941 year the USSR produced only 141 57 mm. anti-tank gun instead of 371.
    1. +1
      18 June 2019 16: 13
      Quote: NF68
      Andrew. Literally the other day you in one of the articles reminded that in the USSR 1941 371 57 mm was released in the year. anti-tank gun.

      Oh, oh, you're right. Thank! The correct number is 371 units.
      1. 0
        18 June 2019 16: 20
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: NF68
        Andrew. Literally the other day you in one of the articles reminded that in the USSR 1941 371 57 mm was released in the year. anti-tank gun.

        Oh, oh, you're right. Thank! The correct number is 371 units.


        371 guns - this figure, apparently, taking into account those guns that were installed on T-34 tanks and self-propelled guns based on the Komsomolets gunnery? And towed 57 mm. guns in 1941 could well have produced 141?
  19. -2
    18 June 2019 16: 19
    Quote: fighter angel
    Yehat
    Well, if there’s a conversation about who needs to change which nickname,
    in response to your offer, I suggest you also change your nickname to "Brehat".
    Consonantly, and for the most part you are just characterized.
    And for the future:
    Do not be rude first, and then do not get an answer.

    Is it me who is the first to be rude? you keep attacking, it's mean.
  20. -2
    18 June 2019 16: 25
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Oh, oh, you're right. Thank! The correct number is 371 units.

    the correct figure is not really known, because besides guns, trunks splashed
    and some of these barrels went into operation before the official resumption of production
    and past all the documents.
  21. 0
    18 June 2019 17: 29
    Quote: Jura 27
    To put it mildly, a very funny statement. I would like a couple of proofs that such a panzerdivisia has 180 tanks wrecked, of which 40 tanks were burned / blown up, but despite the number of 140 tanks, the divisions have nothing to fight, well, or something like that. The same goes for Soviet tanks.

    it is well known that most panthers after the Kursk arc simply fell into the hands of the Red Army as trophies.
    most had minor issues. Guderian, Manstein wrote about this, there are official reports.
    but in statistics, they don’t go as lame. They kind of proudly survived and won, as did a few Ferdinands stuck on land mines.
    Further, Carius' book "tigers in the mud". Check out how many cars were usually on the move.
    And how many times his own tiger was dragged with minor injuries like a broken caterpillar.
    Further, the author pointed out that the Germans showed great persistence in finishing off already knocked out tanks - this is true. The infantry usually had sapper equipment for this and part of this work was given to them in their training at home. By the way, the German infantry even used magnetic mines, which were placed on a moving enemy tank. It seems that this thing was called "heft hohladung", something like that.
    So what do you dislike?
    1. 0
      19 June 2019 04: 58
      [/ quote] So what do you dislike? [quote]

      I do not like that there are no proofs, other than incorrect ones with raw cats.
      1. -1
        19 June 2019 10: 22
        how is it not? I called you a book and the author - you simply ignored them.
        tell me directly - too lazy to read, I want quotes from the book and call names, if something is not complete.
        1. 0
          20 June 2019 03: 48
          Ischo times. Which book refers to the documentary fact of the failure of the tiger, from a close gap of a 122mm shell fired by SU-122 in winter 42/43?
  22. 0
    18 June 2019 17: 30
    It is a pity that the author, having generally accepted the criticism from the previous article, did not abandon his strange conclusion: "that irrecoverable losses of armored vehicles cannot serve as a measure of the combat skills of the parties." After which, he just gives the terms of this skill: finishing off the destroyed tanks, the correct alignment of the technical policy of anti-tank defense and tactics of using armored vehicles, based on combat realities ... bully
    In my opinion, the author convincingly showed that the Germans were noticeably more flexible, because during the war they were the first to rearm tank and anti-tank missile units to a new materiel ... we had a delay in solving even the simplest technical tasks ...
    I hope the author will consider the reasons for our lag ...
    In my opinion, this was a continuation of the theory and practice of mass war, which the Red Army and the SA sinned to the very end of their history ... In principle, as you know, God is on the side of large battalions, but the cost was loss ....
    1. 0
      18 June 2019 20: 23
      Quote: ser56
      In my opinion, this was a continuation of the theory and practice of mass warfare.

      Rather, the consequences of the loss of a significant number of production capacities and the "relocation" of an equally significant number of them ...
      Do you think that cast iron shells filled with schneiderite are the consequences of the "theory and practice of mass war"?
  23. -1
    18 June 2019 17: 45
    Quote: Jura 27
    Do not be fooled, the installation party SU-122 was sent to the center of self-propelled artillery in January 1943 (third) year and only then to the front.

    January 1, 43 the first cars arrived in the 1433th and 1434 SAP
    in connection with the start of Operation Iskra, the 1433th and 1434th SAPs, by decision of the Supreme High Command Headquarters, were sent to the Volkhov Front in late January to be used as a means of supporting infantry and tanks. spark operation began on January 12th.
    I was mistaken for 2 weeks, having mixed up with the beginning of a serial release
    and you are trying to prove that for several months.
    and you ignored that part of the installation party did not go to the Chelyabinsk center, but directly to the front. This is not good to manipulate.
    1. +1
      19 June 2019 05: 12
      [/ quote] It's not good to manipulate like that. [quote]

      It is not good to manipulate years and facts. Losses of tigers, piece, in the winter of 43 g near Leningrad, so there will be proof that the tiger was hit by a close tear with a SU-122 shell?
      1. -1
        19 June 2019 10: 06
        find - lay out. I repeat, I'm not a library on demand on any topic spread links
        I remember that I met the material, but what and where - do you seriously think that all people remember this?
        maybe you will memorize 17643 line of capital of Marx in a second quote? this is a requirement of a similar level that you have advanced outside. But if you cannot quote the line, you will still know what the book is about?
        1. 0
          10 July 2019 11: 23
          find - lay out. I repeat, I'm not a library on demand on any topic spread links
          I remember that I met the material, but what and where - do you seriously think that all people remember this?

          - then, not having an exact link to the source, in order not to give your post as an axiom, you should add "as I remember"? Memory properties, forget and confuse. hi
  24. +1
    18 June 2019 18: 18
    For "geometrical tasks", it is not the range of a direct shot that is responsible for the magnitude of the "shot through space"
  25. +4
    18 June 2019 20: 31
    On the instructions of the GBTU KA in July 1943, the research institute 48 team and plant number 180 in Saratov conducted a survey of T-34 tanks received for repair delivered from the Stalingrad area. The main part of these cars was hit in the autumn-winter battles of 1942-43. A total of 304 "thirty-fours" and 105 armored vehicles were examined, which were under repair at factory number 180.
    According to the conclusions of the commission, the durability of the T-34 armor as a whole, its projections and individual parts, under the fire of the German artillery of that period (late 1942) is completely unsatisfactory, while the difference in the durability of individual parts (except for the upper frontal sheet) is almost imperceptible. On either side and when fired at from the frontal projection, the tank could be disabled on average by two hits.
    “Thus, the T-34 tank in the past, a securely booked vehicle with a distinct difference in the durability of individual parts, due to the increase in the power of the German tank and anti-tank artillery, turned to the end of 1942. into an "equidistant" machine, that is, into a machine that withstands the same impact on shells from either side. Some difference in the durability of individual parts, which is still felt, has almost no practical value. With a further increase in the power of the German anti-tank artillery, in particular with an increase in the specific gravity of 75 and 88 mm guns, the weakness of armor of the T-34 tank will affect even more sharply, and the difference in the durability of individual parts will completely disappear. Consequently, the advantages of the T-34 tank, which it once had due to its relatively successfully developed armor protection, have in fact already been completely lost, and its disadvantages, in particular, significant overload, and hence insufficient speed and maneuverability, especially in difficult traffic conditions , as well as poor visibility from the tank, became decisive for the fate of the tank in battle. The radical modernization of the T-34 became absolutely necessary.
    Two ways are possible to solve this issue - the first is to thoroughly refine the reservation of the tank, with full use of all its weight capabilities, to improve the protection of its frontal projection, making it invulnerable to the main tank and anti-tank calibers of the enemy (75 and 88 mm).
    The second way is to abandon the protection of the tank against direct hits of the main tank and anti-tank calibers of the enemy. Thoroughly work out his reservation against smaller calibers and against fragments, lighten the tank as much as possible and dramatically increase its speed and maneuverability.
    Both ways will ultimately lead to a reduction in tank losses from enemy artillery fire. ”
  26. -1
    19 June 2019 01: 01
    Quote: ser56
    It is a pity that the author, having generally accepted the criticism from the previous article, did not abandon his strange conclusion: "that irrecoverable losses of armored vehicles cannot serve as a measure of the combat skills of the parties."

    It is a pity that the commentator did not perceive the fact of the "irrevocable" loss of the country as a common measure of the combat skills of the parties ...
    Quote: ser56
    In my opinion, the author convincingly showed that the Germans were noticeably more flexible, because during the war they were the first to rearm tank units and anti-tank missile units to a new military unit ...

    And in what year were the Germans "able" to re-equip tank units with a new medium tank? The four still managed to fight for the Jews. They did not rearm anything with the Heavy Tiger, because they had it first, and a unique structure was created for this tank. What's the flexibility? In three medium tanks at the same time in service in the Panzerwaffe? Or two heavy ones?
    Quote: ser56
    I hope the author will consider the reasons for our lag ...

    Well, the head can be endlessly sprinkled with ashes. I have been studying the German backlog for 19 years now. Especially the cry of Yaroslavna that stood in 1941. And nothing, only ChSV for grandfathers is growing. I began to sleep better and I joke with the brave Germans on the forums. How did the PAK-40, the "newest" yes "flexible rearmed", fight? They say that this gun, after three rounds of half a meter with a bipod, buried itself in the ground (a hundred poods of komunyaki lie!). And I also heard that the muzzle brake on the PTP raised a lot of dust (or snow?), Unmasked the position! Well, this is not a byada - the Germans are flexible ... "coped" is the standard answer! And the fact that the newest Panther was taken to the side of the tower and the hull of the 45mm anti-tank gun was silent.
    1. +2
      19 June 2019 07: 36
      Quote: DesToeR
      They say that this gun after three rounds of half a meter bipod buried in the ground

      Is it really bad? Actually, self-locking coulters are designed for that. It’s bad when they don’t dig in, the time for the second shot increases significantly, the accuracy decreases
      Because, in fact, there are so many photos with hanging on a frame like this
  27. 0
    19 June 2019 05: 39
    Regardless of efficiency: after all, the Germans made BEAUTIFUL cars.
  28. +1
    19 June 2019 09: 45
    The average number of divisions of the first echelon, however, is currently only 1000 people ...
    And this with a staff number of 16000-17000 ...
  29. -1
    19 June 2019 10: 13
    Quote: ser56
    Quote: ser56
    fatally for the running of any tank - it will kill a caterpillar ...

    on the other hand, it is necessary to create a high density non-profit organization - the consumption of wild shells ... request

    and here something else decided - poor flatness, which is convenient for large high-explosive shells.
    this made it possible, on the contrary, to relatively reliably lay the projectile in or near the tank itself.
  30. 0
    19 June 2019 12: 06
    d. And they were completely unrelated to the martial art of the Red Army - Prokhorovka says otherwise (
  31. 0
    19 June 2019 13: 57
    Quote: hohol95
    I do not think that in 1943 the Germans changed the calculation and distribution of equipment according to the degree of defeat

    the calculation has not changed, but the structure of losses has changed - after the offensive of the Red Army since 43g. a large number of German tanks were captured right at repair bases or abandoned due to various problems, and in 42 you can still see what proportion could return to service as a result of repairs without major distortions.
    1. 0
      19 June 2019 23: 37
      Everything that you wrote, I wrote in my previous comment!
      It was a lot of broken or broken equipment that was abandoned and not evacuated to repair. Which immediately went into the category of irretrievable losses!
      A striking example is the Böke regiment in 1944!
      On January 25, 1944 - 69 "Tigers" and 123 "Panthers".
      February 4 - 34 "Tigers" and 47 "Panthers".
      February 13th - 13 striped and 12 black cats!
      The question is - where are the rest of the "cat"? Did everyone just break down?
  32. 0
    19 June 2019 16: 35
    Quote: Spade
    Is it really bad? Actually, self-locking coulters are designed for that.

    Maybe it’s not bad if the fire on the front of 60 grams suits you and you don’t need to "pull out" 1,5 tons from the ground and drag it to the reserve position. But something tells me that this is not for VET.
    1. 0
      20 June 2019 06: 38
      Quote: DesToeR
      Maybe it’s not bad if the fire on the front of 60 grams suits you and you don’t need to "pull out" 1,5 tons from the ground and drag it to the reserve position. But something tells me that this is not for VET.

      You can’t argue against the laws of physics: if you want 75 mm and a high projectile speed - get a weight of 1,5 tons, if you don’t want to - shoot at point blank range from the M-42
      1. 0
        31 July 2019 22: 26
        Do you still think that it is completely unnecessary to roll the PTO across the field? It’s not enough to roll away after a couple of shots (and you can’t roll 1,5t much), before that you need to pull out the coulters, but they’re already sitting deep! They must be dug up!
        Maybe it's better "point blank"? Meters from 500 in fact. I smacked a couple of boxes. Without a muzzle brake, the enemy did not notice. And he rolled the little fluff, huh? And the openers do not interfere. Will you go away even with half the calculation? But with the Pak-40, everything is not so simple. Do you think the Germans were hanging on the coulters out of laziness in those photos? Like what to bury them according to the charter? And so it will do?
  33. -2
    25 June 2019 08: 59
    There is one more nuance. Okay, 20-30 German tanks became scrap metal on the battlefield. Another 70-80 went to repair. But ours are successfully advancing. And in a couple of days they can drive to the repair base. At once translating the wrecked tanks into the column of the irretrievably lost.
  34. 0
    10 July 2019 11: 37
    Quote: Dooplet11
    Properties of memory, forget and confuse.

    fair amendment.
  35. 0
    10 July 2019 22: 26
    Karoch Hfühler and other fascisms were crap with their bergepanzers.
  36. +1
    31 July 2019 22: 36
    “The rupture of such a projectile ... in the fuel tank practically guaranteed the destruction of the thirty-four.” As studies have shown in 43 years, the explosion of a diesel fuel tank occurs under specific conditions. One of which is 15-40% filling the tank with fuel.
    My conclusions: Tanks did not always explode when the armor was pierced and a shell hit the tank. Rather, the "burnt out" T-34s with torn tanks are the result of the work of the German infantry and artillery to "finish off" them. Or am I wrong?
  37. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      26 August 2019 16: 49
      Dude, don't eat this stuff anymore!

      So after all, that garbage that you consider to be brains will completely flow out through your ears!

      AND! Well yes! And do not forget to wear a foil hat!
  38. 0
    14 September 2019 20: 51
    An interesting analysis. Deeper than just calculating losses from party reports.