Top thirty-four with 76,2-mm cannon, or T-34 of model 1943 of year against T-IVH

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In a previous article, the author described the measures taken by the German military and industrial leadership to stop the threats created by the T-34 tank, with anti-ballistic armor and a powerful 76,2 mm gun. It can be rightfully said that at the beginning of 1942 the Germans did not have a single widespread weapon system that would ensure reliable destruction of the T-34, except for the 88 mm anti-aircraft guns. But by 1943, the Wehrmacht and the SS, for the most part, were re-equipped with anti-tank guns and Tanksquite capable of fighting the T-34. The decisive role was played here by the 75-mm Pak 40 gun, various modifications of which were used as a towed artillery system, as well as cannons for tanks and various self-propelled guns.

Thus, at the beginning of the 1943, the T-34 lost the status of a tank with an anti-bullet reservation. What did our designers do?



T-34-76 sample 1943 g


In principle, the T-34 design had certain reserves by weight and allowed to increase the thickness of the reservation, however, this was not done. The main changes of the thirty-fours in the first half of 1943 were to increase engine life, improve ergonomics and increase the situational awareness of the tank.

The “flaming heart” of the T-34, the B-2 diesel engine, after ridding it of “childhood diseases”, was a high-quality and completely reliable tank engine.


The same B-2


Nevertheless, he often failed before the deadline due to the abominable work of air cleaners. The Chief of the Red Army Central Intelligence Directorate, 2, Major General Tank Xpov, who oversaw T-34 tests at the Aberdeen Proving Ground, noted: “The flaws of our diesel engine are criminally poor air purifiers on the T-34 tank. Americans believe that only a saboteur could construct such a device. "

During 1942, the situation improved somewhat, but still our tanks received really high-quality air purifiers "Cyclone" only in January, 1943. And this significantly increased the life of their engines. The latter now often even exceeded the table values.

The second important innovation was the transition to a new five-speed gearbox. As far as the author could understand, for the first time it was used on T-34 in March 1943, and in June it was already used everywhere in all tank factories that produced T-34. In addition, the design of the main clutch was slightly upgraded, and all this together led to a significant simplification of the work of the driver. Until that time, the management of the tank required a lot of physical strength, in certain circumstances, the force on the lever had to reach 32 kg. In addition, it was very difficult to “stick” a new gear while the main friction clutch was running, but to burn it was very easy, which made it easier for many tankers to attack. They included the 2 starting gear, but at the same time they removed the rev limiter from the engine. This brought the diesel to the speed of rotation in 2 300 rpm, and the speed of the tank on this transmission to 20-25 km / h, which, of course, greatly reduced engine life.

The new gearbox and advanced clutch did not require any “miracle heroes” behind the levers of the tank, nor the conduct of the battle in one gear. The management of the T-34 after these innovations has become quite satisfactory. Although the T-34 transmission did not become exemplary and still contained a number of deliberately archaic solutions, but after these innovations, the thirty-four really became reliable and unpretentious in operation and easy to manage.

A huge step forward made the observation of the tank. Unfortunately, the narrow shoulder strap did not allow the introduction of the fifth crew member and thus divide the duties of the gunner and the tank commander. Nevertheless, in terms of situational awareness, the crew of the T-34 produced in the summer of 1943 was an order of magnitude superior to the “thirty-four” earlier models.



On T-34 rev.1941, the tank commander had a panoramic PT-K device and two periscopic instruments located on the sides of the tank. Alas, PT-K was not quite good in design, and most importantly, it was installed extremely unsuccessfully. Although theoretically he could provide an overview on 360 hail., In fact, the T-34 commander could only see ahead and the 120 hail sector. to the right of the direction of movement of the tank. Side "periscopes" were extremely uncomfortable. As a result, the review of the commander of the T-34 arr. 1941 was very limited and had many "dead" inaccessible areas for observation.

Another thing - the commander of the T-34 arr. 1943. From the summer of this year, at thirty-four, a commander's turret, equipped with 5 sighting slits, finally appeared on it, and the MK-4 periscopic periscope device with an 360-degree view was located on it. Now, the commander could quickly examine the battlefield using the reticle, or thoughtfully study it with the help of the MK-4, which is much more advanced than the PT-K.

According to one of the domestic "gurus" in stories tanks M. Baryatinsky, MK-4 was not a Soviet invention, but a copy of the English device Mk IV, which was installed on British tanks that entered the USSR under lend-lease. Of course, our military and designers carefully studied the "lend-lease" equipment, and made a list of successful decisions of foreign tanks, recommended for introduction on the domestic armored vehicles. So, the Mk IV device usually occupied the very first line in this list, and one can only regret that the MK-4 did not go into the series before. This is all the more insulting because according to the data of the same M. Baryatinsky, the Mk IV was produced under license in England itself, and the inventor was Polish engineer Gundlach. In the USSR, the design of this device was known at least since 1939, when Polish tanks 7ТР were at the disposal of our military!

Anyway, T-34 arr. 1943 was one of the most advanced observation instruments in the world, and its location on the commander's turret hatch provided excellent viewing sectors. Nevertheless, many tankers in the memoirs noted that in battle they practically did not use the capabilities of the commander's turrets, and sometimes the hatch was kept completely open. Naturally, in such a position to use the commanding MK-4 was impossible. Why is that?

Let's go back to T-34 arr. The 1941 of the Tank was equipped with a TOD-6 telescopic sight, with the help of which the commander, playing the role of the gunner, pointed the tank gun at the target. This sight was very perfect in design, the only significant drawback was that his sighting device changed position with the gun: thus, the commander had to bend down more and more, the higher the angle of elevation of the gun. Yet TOD-6 was completely unsuitable for monitoring the terrain.

But on the T-34 arr. 1943, the commander, performing duties as a gunner, had at his disposal not one, but two sights. The first, TMFD-7, performed the same functionality as TOD-6, but was more sophisticated and of higher quality. Nevertheless, he, of course, was not suitable for observation: in order to inspect the battlefield from TOD-6 or TMDF-7, it was necessary to rotate the entire tower. However, the commander of the modernized “thirty-four” had a second, periscope sight PT4-7, which, having all the same viewing angle in 26 degrees, could rotate on 360 degrees. without turning the tower. In addition, PT4-7 was located in close proximity to TMDF-7.

Thus, in a battle, the commander, wishing to explore the terrain, had the opportunity, without changing his body position, to “switch” from TMDF-7 to PT4-7 - and this was enough for many, so many commanders didn’t really feel the need to use a commander's turret and MK-4. But this did not make the latter useless - in the end, even when participating in a battle, the tank does not always lead a firefight, and, being, for example, in ambush, the commander had the opportunity to use the reticle of the commander's turret and MK-4.

In other words, the provision of a commander in both of his guises — the commander and gunner of a tank gun — has improved qualitatively. But that was not all. The fact is that in T-34 arr. 1941. The loader had almost no review, except for the ability to use the tank commander’s lateral periscopes. There was practically no sense to this, due to the extremely unfortunate location of the latter.

But on the T-34 arr. 1943, the loader, had its own MK-4 device placed on the roof of the tower and having a full-fledged, although, apparently, not a 360-degree survey - it was probably limited by the commander's turret. In addition, at the disposal of the loader there was an 2 reticle.



The driver mechanic received more convenient means of observation, consisting of two periscope instruments. As for the gunner-radio operator, he also received a "new dress", a diopter sight instead of an optical one, but this almost did not affect anything: this crew member both was and remained almost "blind."

At the end of the story about observation devices on T-34 arr. 1943 G. should mention the quality of optics. Frankly speaking, the quality of the German instruments remained unsurpassed, but our pre-war optics, although it was somewhat worse, nevertheless answered its tasks. However, the Izyum optical glass factory, which was engaged in its manufacture, was evacuated in 1942, which, alas, had a strong impact on the quality of its products. However, the situation was gradually improving, and by the middle of 1943, manufacturers were able to provide quality that is quite comparable to world-wide.

In other words, by about the middle of 1943, the Red Army tank crews finally got the tank that they dreamed of in 1941 and 1942. - The development of T-34-76 has reached its peak. In this form, the "thirty-four" was produced until September 1944, when the last 174 machines of this type descended from the conveyor of the plant No. 2 (Omsk).

Let's try to compare what happened to the Soviet and German gunsmiths, using the example of a comparison of the T-34 arr. 1943 and the best German medium tank T-IVN, whose production was launched in April 1943.

Top thirty-four with 76,2-mm cannon, or T-34 of model 1943 of year against T-IVH


Why was the T-IVH chosen for comparison, and not the later T-IVJ, or the famous “Panther”? The answer is very simple: according to the author, the T-IVH should be considered as the pinnacle of the development of the T-IV tank, but the T-IVJ had some simplifications in its structure designed to facilitate its production, and it was produced only from June 1944. Also It was T-IVH that became the most massive tank of the series - the entire Krupp-Gruzon in Magdeburg, VOMAG in Plauen and the Nibelungenwerk in S. Valentin produced 3 960 of such tanks, that is, almost half (46,13%) of all fours.

As for the "Panther", then, in fact, it was not a medium, but a heavy tank, whose weight fully corresponded to that of a heavy tank EC-2 and surpassed the American heavy tank M26 "Pershing" (the latter, however, later retrained into an average , but this happened after the war). However, later on, the author will necessarily compare T-34-76 and “Panther”, since this will be absolutely necessary for understanding the evolution of the Soviet and German armored forces.

T-34 vs. T-IVH


Alas, a large number of military history buffs argue in a similar vein: the T-IVH's armor thickness reached 80 mm, and the T-34 had all 45 mm, the T-IVH had a long-barreled and much more powerful 75-mm gun than the Soviet F-34 - so what else is there to talk about? And if you still remember the quality of the shells and armor, then it is quite obvious that T-34 lost in all its articles to the brainchild of the “gloomy Teutonic genius”.

However, the devil, as you know, is in the details.

Artillery


The T-IVH was fitted with an excellent 75-mm KwK.40 L / 48, which is an analogue of the Pak-40 towed and had slightly better characteristics than the X -UMG-mm KwK.2 L / 75 mounted on the T-IVF40 and part of the T-IVG . The latter had a construction similar to KwK.43 L / 40, but the trunk shortened to 48 caliber.

KwK.40 L / 48 fired an 6,8 kg caliber armor-piercing (BB) projectile with an initial speed of 790 m / s. At the same time, the domestic F-34 fired 6,3 / 6,5 kg with projectiles with an initial speed of only 662 / 655 m / s. Given the apparent superiority of the German projectile in quality, it is obvious that the armor penetration rate of KwK.40 L / 48 left the F-34 far behind.

True, the Russian projectile had one advantage - a higher content of explosive, of which 6,3 kg BR-350А and 6,5 kg BR-350B were 155 and 119 (according to other data - 65) g, respectively. The German caliber BB PzGr.39 projectile contained only 18, possibly 20 g of explosives. In other words, if the Soviet armor-piercing caliber projectile pierced the armor, its zaronevye impact was significantly higher. But the author is unclear whether it gave any advantages in battle.

In terms of sub-caliber ammunition, KwK.40 L / 48 was also superior to F-34. The German cannon fired 4,1 kg with a projectile with an initial speed of 930 m / s, the Soviet - 3,02 kg with an initial speed of 950 m / s. As is known, the striking element of the sub-caliber ammunition is a relatively thin (of the order of 2 cm) pointed pin of a very durable metal, enclosed in a relatively soft shell, not intended to break the armor. In modern ammunition, the shell is separated after the shot, and in the shells of those times, it was destroyed when striking enemy armor. Since the German projectile was heavier, it can be assumed that, with an almost equal initial velocity, it saved energy better and had better armor penetration with increasing distance than the lighter domestic one.

High-explosive fragmentation ammunition KwK.40 L / 48 and Ф-34 were approximately at the same level. The German projectile at initial speed 590 m / s had 680 g of explosives, indicators of the Soviet RP-350 - 680 m / s and 710 g of explosives. For the F-34, O-350A cast iron grenades with a reduced explosive content in 540 were also used, as well as older ammunition, which should have been fired with a reduced initial velocity, but which were loaded to 815 g of explosives.

In addition, the F-34 could use the case and shrapnel ammunition, which was not in the assortment of the German cannon: in turn, cumulative ammunition was produced for KwK.40 L / 48. However, it is likely that in 1943 g, neither of them was widely used.

Thus, the German artillery system apparently surpassed the domestic F-34 in terms of impact on armored targets, which is not surprising - after all, KwK.40 L / 48, unlike F-34, was a specialized anti-tank weapon. But in the “work” on unarmoured targets KwK.40 L / 48 had no particular advantage over F-34. Both guns were quite convenient for their calculations, but the Soviet was much technologically easier. Sights had quite comparable capabilities.

Reservation


Protection T-34 arr. 1943 r. Increased slightly compared to its previous modifications. A brief description of it can be given as follows: “all by 45 mm”. T-34 arr. 1940 g. 40 mm had a booking of hull sides where the armor plates were tilted, as well as in the stern. The gun mask also had only 40 mm.



T-34 arr. 1943. In all cases, the thickness of the armor reached 45 mm. In cases where cast turrets were used on T-34, their thickness increased to 52 mm, but this did not give an increase in protection: the fact is that cast bronestal has a lower resistance than rolled, so in this case the thickening of armor only compensated her weakness At the same time, the T-34 reservation had rational angles of inclination, which in a number of combat situations allowed us to hope for at least 50-mm and, in some cases, 75-mm caliber to ricochet the enemy projectile.

As for T-IVH, everything turned out much more interesting with it. Yes, the thickness of his armor really reached the 80 mm, but never to be forgotten that such a thickness in the entire tank had exactly 3 armor. Two of them were located in the frontal projection of the tank, another one - defended the commander's turret.


Unfortunately, the author did not find the T-IVH reservation scheme; I had to tweak the scheme of early modification a little.


In other words, the T-IVH was very well protected in frontal projection, only 25 or even 20 mm armor plates, which is located between the bottom and top 80 mm bronelists, raise doubts. Of course, its slope in 72 hail. should have guaranteed a rebound, but theory and practice are two different things. As we know, the creators of the T-34 faced situations where small-caliber shells would seem to have ricocheted from “rationally tilted” armor, but for some reason did not.

The forehead of the T-IVH tower had, in general, protection similar to the T-34 - 50 mm. But everything else defended much worse - the boards and feed of the Quartet, had only 30 mm protection without rational tilt angles. The T-IVH shielded the sides of the hull and (less often) the turret, but the thickness of the screens was only 5 mm. They were intended solely to protect against cumulative ammunition, and practically did not give an increase in armor against other types of projectiles.

"Attack and defense"


And now - the most interesting. In general, the following can be said about the protection of the T-IVH: in the frontal projection, it slightly surpassed the T-34, and from the sides and the stern it was very much inferior to him. I foresee wrathful replicas of supporters of German armored vehicles, they say, how can one compare the 80 mm "forehead" of T-IVH and the inclined 45-mm armor plates of T-34? But let me have a few facts. M. Baryatinsky pointed out that
“Repeated tests of tank shells on NIBTPolygon showed that the upper frontal sheet, which had a thickness of 45 mm and angle of inclination of 60 degrees, was equivalent in equipment resistance to a vertically positioned armor sheet with a thickness of 75 – 80 mm.”

And yet - the tabular armor penetration of Pak 40 was, according to German data, about 80 mm on 1000 m. It punched the frontal armor of the T-34 tower at the 1000 m distance, but here the nasal armor player - only at the distance to 500 m., As evidenced by including, here is this memo calculation Pak 40



Of course, the T-IVH had a more powerful gun, but what advantages did it give it? If we consider the “head-on” confrontation, then at a distance from 500 to 1000, the German tank punched only the frontal parts of the T-34 turret. But the tabular values ​​of the F-34 armor penetration guarantee the same result for 50 mm armor plates of the forward part of the T-IVH turret, and in practice it came about that way - at least using solid metal projectiles that did not contain explosives. Another thing is the distances to 500 m, at which the frontal projection of the T-34 has already been made its way anywhere, but the frontal armored T-IVH - only with projectiles. The author, unfortunately, did not find the results of the shelling of 20 or 25 mm of armor plate T-IVH, which connected two 80 mm of armor details. Did this armor withstand the blows of domestic 76,2-mm armor-piercing caliber shells?

However, it is worth noting other points of view. For example, the same M. Baryatinsky quotes an excerpt from a report made on the basis of 23’s experience with the Wehrmacht’s tank division that “T-34 is attacked at any angle to any projection if the fire is fired from a distance of no more than 1,2 km” speech, oddly enough, is not even about KwK.40 L / 48, but about KwK.40 L / 43. But this could be the result of erroneous observation, yet the experience of one division may not be entirely indicative. Observations of our military said that the forehead of the T-34 case could have been pierced with a KwK.40 L / 48 projectile at a distance of 800 m - and this is not a guaranteed defeat, but that there were no cases when the T-head -34 made his way from a greater distance. Thus, it is possible that at angles close to optimal, the forehead of the T-34 body could be pierced and with a slightly larger distance than the 500 m, but most likely, a reliable defeat was achieved with the 500 m.

As for the sides and the stern, then everything is simple - and the T-34 and T-IVH confidently hit each other in these projections at any conceivable distances of artillery combat.

And here we come to a rather strange, at first glance, conclusion. Yes, the T-IVH had armor in the 80 mm (here and there!) And a very powerful 75-mm gun, but, in fact, it did not give him an overwhelming advantage over the T-34 mod. 1943 d. The German tank reservation scheme gave him superiority — and not absolute, only at a distance to 500 m or a bit more when shooting head-to-head. But otherwise, the T-IVH defense completely lost to the T-34.

One should never forget that tanks are not fighting against each other in a spherical vacuum, but on the battlefield with the entire nomenclature of enemy fire weapons. And for medium tanks of the WWII era, the struggle with enemy tanks, oddly enough, was not at all the main combat task, although, of course, they should always be ready for this.

The T-34 with its anti-shell booking made the Germans evolve towards an increase in the caliber of VET to 75 mm. Such guns successfully fought with the T-34, but at the same time just as "successfully" limited the capabilities of the Wehrmacht. The author came across information that the batteries of the Pak 40 towed could not carry out all-round defense - after several shots the coulters buried so deep into the ground that pulling them out to deploy the gun became a completely non-trivial task that could not usually be solved in fight That is, after entering into battle to deploy the guns in the other direction was almost impossible! And in the same way Pak 40 did not allow movement by the forces of calculation along the battlefield.

But T-IVH, which had comparable armor to T-34 only in a frontal projection, could never have caused such a reaction - its 30 mm beads were surely struck not by the fact that 57-mm ZiS-2, but also by good old “forty pimples” . In fact, it was very dangerous to use tanks of this type against a properly organized defense with overlapping sectors of the flank VET-fire, even if they are driven by mobile and mobile guns of small calibers. We illustrate all the above with the example of T-34 damage according to the analysis of the Central Research Institute No. 48, conducted in 1942, on the basis of a study of padded Thirty-Fours. So, according to this analysis, the hits were distributed as follows:

1. Hull sides - 50,5% of all hits;

2. The forehead of the body is 22,65%;

3. Tower -19,14%;

4. Feed and so on - 7,71%

It is possible that for the T-IVH, the crew of which had a significantly better visibility than the crew of the T-34 model 1942, this ratio was better because the Germans were probably less likely to allow them to board. But even if for the T-IVH such hits in the nose and sides of the hull were distributed approximately equally, then even then no less than 36,5% of all the shells that fell into it would have fallen on its sides! In general, the protection of the side projection is not at all the whim of the creators of the tanks, and the sides of the T-IVH were “cardboard” and could not take a hit at all.


T-IVH with screens removed


It can be stated that T-IVH had certain duel advantages over T-34, but at the same time it was much more vulnerable on the battlefield. At the same time, the more powerful T-IVH gun did not give him any advantages in the fight against field fortifications, machine-gun nests, artillery and unarmored equipment compared to T-34.

Surveillance tools


Here, oddly enough, it is difficult to determine the winner. The undoubted advantage of the T-IVH was the fifth crew member, with the result that the duties of the tank commander and gunner were separated. But the crew of the T-34-76 was equipped with much better technical equipment.

Commander T-IVH had at his disposal a commander's cupola with its 5 reticle, but that was essentially all. She, of course, gave a good overview of the battlefield, but on T-34 arr. 1943, the commander received the same, and the MK-4 and PT4-7 with an increase, allowed him a much better view of the threatened direction, to identify the target. The German commander needed to get out of the hatch, get the binoculars ...


MK-4


In the crew of the T-IVH, only one tank commander had a review in 360 hail. But in the T-34, devices MK-4 and had a commander and loader. That is, in the event of an extreme need (for example, a tank is opened at the fire), the crew of the T-34 was probably more likely to find out from whence and who, in fact, shoots.

It must be said that on previous versions of the T-IV, the crew review was better - the same loader in the T-IVH was completely “blind”, but in the T-IVG, for example, it had 4 reticle in its eyes, which could not be seen only he, but also the gunner. But on the T-IVH screens were installed, and from these sighting slots had to be abandoned. Thus, the only gunner's device was a tank sight, and he, for all his merits, was not suitable for a review of the terrain.

The T-34 and T-IVH driver mechanics were about equal in capabilities — the German tanker had a good periscope device and a reticle, our 2 periscope device and a driver's hatch, which overall was, perhaps, more convenient than a slot. The loser member of the Soviet crew was only the gunner-gunner - although he had a diopter sight, his viewing angle was too small, and his German counterparts 2 provided a slightly better view.

In general, perhaps, it can be argued that the T-34 crew was very close to the T-IVH in terms of awareness, if there was a difference, it was not very significant. And, by the way, is no longer a fact that in favor of the German tank.

Ergonomics


On the one hand, the German crew had certain advantages - a wider shoulder strap for the tower (but not the 2 of the person, but the 3), but better conditions for the loader. But on the other hand, the Germans had to save on the T-IVH. In his memoirs, a number of Soviet tankers expressed their complaints about the work of the electric motor, which turned the tank turret. Well, on some T-IVHs the mechanical turning devices were generally considered unnecessary overkill, so the tower was rotated by hand. Someone complained about the T-34 mechanic optics (complaints, by the way, related mainly to the “thirty-fours” of 1941-42 samples)? So some T-IVHs did not have a periscope observation device at all, and the driver only had a reticle. In general, on the T-IVH, the only optical devices were the gunner’s sight only, and the tank commander’s binoculars. Undoubtedly, T-IVH was more convenient to manage, but on T-34 the situation in this regard has improved dramatically. On average, perhaps, the German tank was still superior to the T-34 in terms of convenience, but, apparently, it was already impossible to say that ergonomics significantly reduced the potential of the thirty-four.

Chassis


Of course, the German transmission was more perfect and better. But T-IVH, having a mass of 25,7 t, was driven by a petrol engine with a power of 300 hp, that is, the specific power of the tank was 11,7 hp per ton. And T-34-76 arr. 1943, with a mass of 30,9 t, had a 500-strong diesel, respectively, its specific power was 16,2 hp / t, that is, by this indicator more than 38% exceeded its German "opponent". The specific pressure on the ground of the German tank reached 0,89 kg / sq. Cm, and for the T-34 - 0,79 kg / sq. Cm. In other words, the mobility and permeability of the T-34 left the T-IVH far behind.

Cruising on the highway at the T-IVH was 210 km, at the T-34 - 300 km and, unlike the “thirty-fours” of previous years, the T-34 mod. 1943 could really cover such a distance.

As for fire hazard, then the question is very difficult. On the one hand, gasoline, of course, is more combustible, but the T-IVH tanks with fuel were located very low, under the fighting compartment, where they were threatened only by explosions on mines. At the same time, the T-34 fuel was located on the sides of the crew compartment. As it is known, diesel fuel doesn’t burn much, but its vapors could well cause detonation. However, judging by the available data, such a detonation could have caused no less than an 75-mm projectile that exploded inside the tank, if the latter had little fuel. The consequences of such a detonation were, of course, terrible, but ... Would it be much worse if the T-34 tanks were located elsewhere? Detonation 75 mm projectile in the fighting compartment and so almost guaranteed the death of the crew.

Perhaps we can say this: the use of a diesel engine was an asset of the Soviet tank, but the location of its fuel tanks was a disadvantage. But in general, there is no doubt that each tank, on the part of the engine and transmission, had its advantages and disadvantages and it is difficult to choose the undisputed leader, but the T-34 may well claim to be in the first place.

Combat potential




In general, it can be stated that T-IVH and T-34 arr. The 1943 was a machine of roughly equal combat qualities. T-IVH was slightly better in tank combat, T-34 - in the fight against infantry, artillery and other unarmored targets. Interestingly, both tanks fully complied with the requirements of the moment. For the Germans, the time of the blitzkrieg was irretrievably gone, for them the tasks of confronting Soviet tank wedges that had broken down the defenses and escaped to operational space, came to the forefront, and T-IVH coped better with this task T-34. At the same time, the era of deep operations was approaching for the Red Army, in which they needed an unpretentious and reliable tank capable of long-range raids and focused on quick defeat and suppression of rear structures, troops on the march, field artillery on positions and other similar goals in the depth of the enemy’s defenses . This is T-34-76 arr. 1943 G. "knew how" to do better T-IVH.

Manufacturability


According to this parameter, T-IVH with a bang lost T-34. While the T-34 hulls were formed using automatic welding machines, the operators of which did not require high skill, and the towers were made either in the same way or were cast, the hulls of German tanks were a real work of art. The armor plates had special fastenings, they seemed to be inserted into each other (on dowels), and then they were welded by hand, which required a lot of time and highly skilled workers. That's just what was the point in all this, if all these efforts ultimately did not lead to any noticeable superiority of T-IVH in defense against T-34? And the same could be said about any other unit.

As a result, the Germans spent a lot of effort and time to create a combat vehicle ... who had no visible superiority over the much simpler and easier to manufacture T-34-76 arr. 1943

To be continued ...
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  1. +2
    27 May 2019 18: 48
    Not bad! Thanks to the author for comparing with the T-4 ...
    The question arises - why did the banal T-34 improvements appear only for 43? request After all, the flaws were on the surface, that with the box, that with the clutches, that with the review ... Well, these changes could not greatly affect the production of the tank ... However, it is difficult to understand the decisions of that time:
    1) "The Americans believe that only a saboteur could have designed such a device." - do we need opinion from abroad? do not understand? How much this mess with a filter cost is beyond my comprehension ... am
    2) as for the reservation, it was in vain brought up to 45mm everywhere - it would be better to spend this weight on strengthening the frontal projection at least to 60mm, this would significantly improve the resistance to 75mm PTO guns, although the hatch area would remain ...
    1. +13
      27 May 2019 18: 56
      Quote: ser56
      The question arises - why the banal improvements of the T-34 appeared only to 43g? After all, the flaws were on the surface, that with the box,

      the answer is simple: the lack of equipment and technologies. did it really "on the knee". yes, and the qualifications of the workers also have their own subtleties. now it is hardly possible to do anything at all. just SOMEONE. and NOT FOR WHAT. well, except for cartoons, if ...
    2. +23
      27 May 2019 19: 12
      Quote: ser56
      The question arises - why did the banal T-34 improvements appear only for 43?

      I wrote a lot about this in previous articles :)))
      The problem was that even the Kharkov and Stalingrad plants were not really ready for the large-scale production of the T-34 in 1941, and it was necessary to expand its production at other enterprises. The T-34 itself had a lot of childhood illnesses and defects. Therefore, before the war there was a completely different policy - to make the T-34 "as is" and at the same time to make the T-34M, on which all the shortcomings of the "thirty-four" will be corrected - there are 5 crew members and a turret with a commander's cupola and a wide shoulder strap and a new box and all 33 pleasures. And when the T-34M is ready - to transfer the factories to its production, and it was already thought to be produced in the 41st.
      BUT! - detained the engine for the T-34M, the war began and it became clear that there was no time to wait. And there was no time for commander’s turrets, it was necessary to urgently set up production, cheapening the T-34 - Can you imagine what it is to bring the fighting machine to mind at the evacuating plant?
      So 1942 went away - Kharkov was evacuated, Stalingrad was lost, but they also started production at 4 factories. Well, it was impossible then to climb into improving the design, the release was more important
      Quote: ser56
      that, before booking, it was in vain brought to 45mm everywhere - it would be better to spend this weight on strengthening the frontal projection at least to 60mm, this would noticeably improve the resistance to 75mm PTO tools

      Controversial issue, in fact
      1. 0
        27 May 2019 22: 09
        But they released shielded ones.
      2. 0
        28 May 2019 06: 41
        BUT! - they delayed the engine for the T-34M, the war began and it became clear that there was no time to wait. And there was no longer up to the commander’s towers, it was urgent to establish
        Not quite so - in the final pre-production edition of the T-34M, the MTO design was unified with the T-34.
      3. +3
        28 May 2019 12: 31
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Can you imagine what it is to bring to mind a combat vehicle in an evacuating factory?

        I know something else - the measures to improve the T-34 were not big - this is not a change in the hull or tower, weld the shell on the roof or change the location of the viewing devices is not a problem! But the box or the air purification system are generally separate units and they cannot be brought to mind for 2 years - this is nonsense! Because of these little things, losses increased, both combat and non-combat! Another thing is that they rated the plant by the number of tanks, and not their ability to fight ...
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Controversial issue, in fact

        from what? Germans and others used differentiated booking and this approach became the norm ...
        1. +3
          28 May 2019 15: 59
          Quote: ser56
          I know something else - the measures to improve the T-34 were not big - this is not a change in the hull or tower, weld the shell on the roof or change the location of the viewing devices is not a problem!

          What kind of appliances? In 1942, everything was so good with optics that binoculars were removed for the manufacture of sights.
          And without normal optics, without the same Mk-4, which is a kombuchenka, which is not - there is no difference. Uv. M. Svirin wrote that in 1942 the army even asked to remove the simplified kombucha from the T-50, because the "cap with slots" only increases the mass of the tank, without improving visibility.
          In addition, changing the position of viewing instruments is far from a simple matter. The only requirement is to ensure simultaneous observation of the sight and turret rotation / aiming the guns drank a lot of blood (then the designers can’t reach the handwheels, the gun interferes, then the other sight). Plus - this is a change in the design of the tower and the hull.
          Quote: ser56
          But the box or the air purification system are generally separate units and they cannot be brought to mind for 2 years - this is nonsense!

          Here's a machine for you to do four steps for a 10-ton BT-2. Make five steps on it for the 26-ton T-34. Mockery? No, the prose of life for Kharkov (at LKZ with machines it was better, but there were cockroaches there).
          It wasn't from a good life that before the war we played with demultipliers - it was easier to make a four-step with a demultiplier than a pure five-step.
          1. +1
            28 May 2019 17: 15
            Quote: Alexey RA
            What kind of appliances?

            panoramas ... there is a mirror of polished steel
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Plus - this is a change in the design of the tower and the hull.

            aha, change the location of the instrument seats ... bully with this approach, any threading feat ... request
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Make five steps on it for the 26-ton T-34.

            are you about gearbox? I dare to assure you that the machine park for cutting gears does not particularly change, as well as for grooving shafts ... yes, the casing and bearings are different - but the first to the foundry, and the second to subcontractors ... request
            By the way, before the T-34, BT-7M was in production ... and it is more than 14t ... and BT-2 was 11t ... bully
            1. +1
              28 May 2019 17: 31
              Quote: ser56
              are you about gearbox? I dare to assure you that the machine park for cutting gears does not particularly change, as well as for grooving shafts ...

              Five-step work had a problem with the jig boring machine.
              Quote: ser56
              By the way, before the T-34, BT-7M was in production ... and it is more than 14t ... and BT-2 was 11t ...

              Yeah ... and even before the T-34, one gear was thrown out of the four-step on the BT - the four-step factory could not.
              1. 0
                28 May 2019 17: 46
                Quote: Alexey RA
                the problem was with the jig boring machine.

                so maybe you had to buy or make a machine? All the time, from scratch, problems were ...
                1. 0
                  28 May 2019 18: 06
                  Quote: ser56
                  so maybe you had to buy or make a machine?

                  To do - only after the war. Buy ... after SFV - only from the Germans.
                  1. 0
                    29 May 2019 14: 37
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    after SFV - only among the Germans.

                    so much that they bought ... even a press for 10 000t ...
              2. 0
                28 May 2019 18: 49
                [/ quote] The five-step problem was with the coordinate boring machine. [quote]


                No, with the number of gear cutting machines.
                On BT-7, one transmission was thrown out as unnecessary, because the engine was oversized for such a light tank.
              3. +1
                29 May 2019 15: 38
                and even before the T-34, on BT from one step they threw one gear - could not Four-step factory.

                This is your invention. In fact, this happened when the V-2 diesel was installed. 500hp 13t weight is too much, even now for the T-80; T-90; Abrams and Armata less)) In addition, the torque is much greater than that of the M-17. The mechanics in the units tore the tracks, clutches, gears fell ... Many engineers were shot as "pests", after which they made a new box with 3 steps (they were enough) and other gear ratios.
                1. -1
                  29 May 2019 16: 02
                  Quote: anzar
                  and even before the T-34, on BT from one step they threw one gear - could not Four-step factory.

                  This is your invention. In fact, this happened when the V-2 diesel was installed. 500hp 13t weight is too much, even now for the T-80; T-90; Abrams and Armata less)) In addition, the torque is much greater than that of the M-17. The mechanics in the units tore the tracks, clutches, gears fell ... Many engineers were shot as "pests", after which they made a new box with 3 steps (they were enough) and other gear ratios.

                  No, the Three Steps appeared in 1937 as early as the M-17. But not so many were shot.
                  1. 0
                    29 May 2019 16: 22
                    trehstupka appeared in 1937 with the M-17

                    Perhaps I remember that many tanks of "inadequate quality" appeared. That is, there may be a transition from M-5 to M-17 ...?
                    I can’t appreciate much / little, it seems that Koshkin’s predecessor
                  2. +1
                    31 May 2019 13: 11
                    How many times have I refused to comment on the verses of this totally incompetent, but very talkative author, and now, again. He is so prolific that he is everywhere. And there is no way to get around it.
                    While he was talking nonsense on naval topics, his verses could still be somehow ignored. A narrow topic without a wide readership. But there he became bored, he took up the tanks, and this topic is much broader.
                    First of all, why did the author decide to compare the T-34/76 with the Pz.IV? This BTT has nothing in common. Those. nothing at all, in fact they are complete antipodes. Moreover, literally in everything, everything in this BTT is different.
                    Conceptually, the T-34 was conceived as an ideological analogue (classmate) Pz.III. As a machine of qualitative superiority over a similar (one class) enemy BTT. That is why, before the war, the captured and purchased in Germany Pz.III drove to the training grounds along with the T-34.
                    But the author did not notice a hint in this, therefore, compares the T-34/76 with Pz.IV. Although an analogue of Pz.IV (according to TTX) tried to extend the T-34/85. This was not possible, but it is still possible to compare the T-34/85 with the Pz.IV. A T-34/76, it’s impossible.
                    Let's start with the main thing, the author does not understand anything in artillery. During the war years, 76 mm F-34 was noticeably inferior to 50 mm KwK39 in armor penetration. At the same time, the fragmentation of its ersatz OS (O-350A) was approximately at the level of 57 mm of the SFS of the Anglo-Saxons. And it was better than the fragmentation of the German 50 mm OFS. As a result, the combined power of 76 mm F-34 was approximately equivalent to 50 mm KwK39. Each of the guns had their own advantages and disadvantages.
                    To compare the 76 mm F-34 with the 75 mm KwK40, it’s the same as comparing the maize with the messer on the sole ground that they are both aircraft. And even to find advantages in corn maize, such as four wings steeper than two.
                    The author does not understand anything in the armor. But in RuNet is full of information on this subject. Including and quite official scans.
                    He does not know that all German (and Czech) armor 50 mm thick and less (except mounted) was cemented. And 50 mm German armor, according to experts of the NIIIBT training ground, is equivalent to 66-68 mm of Soviet pre-war rolled armor. And 77-79 mm Soviet cast wartime armor.
                    If the author is armed with a calculator, then he can easily get numbers for 30 mm of German cemented armor. And do not write nonsense about "cardboard sides of German tanks, which are easy to take from the PTR".
                    But the 80 mm armor of the late Pz.IV was already uncemented.
                    after ridding him of "childhood diseases",

                    There are no childhood diseases in technology. There are structural defects.
                    Another thing - the commander of the T-34 arr. 1943

                    The same rubbish design, only in profile.
                    about the opinion of one of the domestic "gurus" in the history of tanks M. Baryatinsky

                    Read less and quote all sorts of "gurus". Maybe stop writing nonsense. All of these gurus usually know a little more than you. Just very talkative. Just like you.
                    In addition, PT4-7 was located in the immediate vicinity of TMDF-7

                    Yeah. The forehead of the tower, it is very close to the roof of the tower. Did the author even see the T-34/76 tower with his own eyes?
                    really didn’t feel the need to use the commander’s cupola and MK-4 in battle

                    But what about the phrase written a little earlier:
                    Another thing - the commander of the T-34 arr. 1943. From the summer of this year, at thirty-four, a commander's turret, equipped with 5 sighting slits, finally appeared on it, and the MK-4 periscopic periscope device with an 360-degree view was located on it. Now, the commander could quickly examine the battlefield using the reticle, or thoughtfully study it with the help of the MK-4, which is much more advanced than the PT-K.

                    What kind of "other business" is this, which "did not feel the need"?
                    Why did you choose the T-IVH for comparison, and the later T-IVJ, or the famous Panther? The answer is very simple: according to the author, the T-IVH should be considered as the pinnacle of the development of the T-IV tank

                    Well, let's say the author likes the T-IVH. Then what? Is this a reason to compare it with the T-34/76?
                    Yes, and Panther for some reason dragged. Then you should not forget a motorcycle with a sidecar. Also need to compare with the T-34.
                    As for the Panther, in fact, it was not a medium tank, but a heavy tank, whose weight corresponded to that of the heavy tank IS-2 and was superior to the American heavy tank M26 Pershing

                    And where does the weight come from? The bulldozer is also hanging hoo. But from this he does not acquire any combat performance characteristics.
                    We conclude that the author does not know that BTT is compared by its TTX, and not by weight. Still sometimes BTT is compared as intended. But for Soviet and German technology during the war, this method is not suitable, the tactics of using German and Soviet BTT were very different. Those. if before the war the concept of using the German and Soviet BTT was absolutely the same (and the British with the French, too). In the course of the war, there is no trace of this sameness. Everyone went his own way. And already in the middle of the war, the German and Soviet BTTs could only be compared by real TTX.
                    the latter, however, was subsequently retrained to medium, but this happened after the war

                    The author must learn not to pay any attention to these terms at all, since the "German medium tank" was roughly equivalent to the "American heavy tank". Those. the weight classification was different for everyone. And she's not particularly interesting.
                    it is quite obvious that the T-34 lost in all respects to the brainchild of the “gloomy Teutonic genius”.
                    However, the devil, as you know, is in the details.

                    The devil is in the author. Which, in the usual way for itself (always the same thing), undertook to prove that a member is not quite a member. So, a slight misunderstanding. And the finger is not a finger at all. A little finger. And in general, where the penis to the finger.
                    And it's hard to disagree with the author. For picking your nose and writing such "research", the finger is more suitable. But this does not mean that he is, in principle, cooler.
                    At the same time, the domestic F-34 fired 6,3 / 6,5 kg of shells with an initial speed of only 662/655 m / s.

                    Reference artillery cartridges. At the same time, the author can easily and simply find that during the war Soviet BBS most often did not accelerate faster than 630 m / s. Gunpowder was not good.
                    which in terms of armor penetration KwK.40 L / 48 left the F-34 far behind.

                    Far away, that is not the right word. These were generally guns of different orders. Even the Soviet 76 mm anti-aircraft gun had armor penetration worse than the PaK / KwK40. But fragmentation, and even more so.
                    had a Russian shell

                    Where did the Red Army take the Russian BBS?
                    The German caliber BB shell PzGr.39 contained only 18, possibly 20 g of explosives.

                    Different explosives have different performance characteristics. Comparing them directly by weight is stupid.
                    7.5 cm Pzgr. 39 contained 20 g of phlegmatized RDX.
                    7.5 cm K. Gr. rot Pz. - 80 g of pressed TNT.
                    High-explosive fragmentation ammunition KwK.40 L / 48 and F-34 were approximately at the same level.

                    Everything, just precipitated. The fragmentation of the German 75 mm OFS was more than 2 times greater than the fragmentation of the Soviet 76 mm OS O-350A.
                    The author does not understand anything in artillery. Absolutely.
                    1. -2
                      31 May 2019 13: 11
                      and 710 g of explosives

                      There were no such OFSs during the war. And right after that, too, was gone. The author needs to see where he gets the info. In the reference pre-war OFS OF-350 was 621 g. BB.
                      For F-34, O-350A cast iron grenades with a low explosive content in 540 were also used.

                      Did the author see the directories in the eye? In the same place it is written in black and white, 490 for O-350A.
                      as well as older ammunition, which should have been fired at a reduced initial speed, but which were equipped with up to 815 g of explosives.

                      Another pearl of the mount artilleryman. Old Russian grenades barrel 40 clb long. guaranteed not to pass. Mostly exploded from overheating. Therefore, in the ammunition long three-inch was not there, they were shot from the regiments.
                      In addition, the F-34 could use card and shrapnel ammunition, which was not in the assortment of the German gun

                      The author no longer knows what advantages to come up with for the F-34. Therefore, frankly chases the blizzard.
                      after all, the KwK.40 L / 48, unlike the F-34, was a specialized anti-tank gun.

                      Actually, the KwK40s were tank guns. The anti-tank guns were the PaK40. They had different artillery rounds, but their warheads, shells, they were unified. And the shells were very different.
                      But in the “work” on unarmored targets, the KwK.40 L / 48 did not have a particular advantage over the F-34.

                      And again, a fragmentation of 7.5 cm Sprgr. 34 was normal for the OFS of this caliber. The fragmentation of 76 mm O-350A was at the level of 57 mm OFS of the Anglo-Saxons. And it was more than 2 times less than the fragmentation of 7.5 cm Sprgr. 34.
                      There was no TNT in the USSR. And normal metal for shells, too. Therefore, instead of trotyl, ammatol (crappy grades) with a trotyl stopper was used. And instead of steel, steel cast iron.
                      The effect of the application of which was quite expected.
                      Both guns were quite convenient for their calculations, but the Soviet one was much easier technologically.

                      And the slingshot was even more technological than the F-34.
                      This technology was up to one place for tankers. They needed a gun. And the T-34/76 didn’t really have it.
                      Sights had quite comparable capabilities.

                      Did the author read at least any memoirs of tankers on this subject?
                      At the same time, the T-34 armor had rational angles of inclination, which in a number of combat situations made it possible to hope for a rebound of an enemy shell of at least 50 mm, and in some cases a 75 mm caliber.

                      In armor and terms, the author also swims. The T-34 did not have a ricochet armor at all. That's simple, nowhere. The KV-1 was in places. Pz.IV also had places. But the T-34 didn’t. Generally nowhere.
                      In addition, it is not clear what “rational tilt angles” are. What are the rational angles? And why?
                      As we know, the creators of the T-34 were faced with situations where small-caliber shells would seem to have to ricochet from “rationally tilted” armor, but for some reason they didn’t.

                      Because no one but the author knows what “rationally tilted armor” is. And the T-34, I repeat, did not have a rebound armor.
                      Of course, its slope is 72 degrees. had to guarantee a rebound, but theory and practice are two different things.

                      The author does not know what the breaking effect of a shell is. Well, okay.
                      M. Baryatinsky pointed out that
                      “Repeated tests of tank shells on NIBTPolygon showed that the upper frontal sheet, which had a thickness of 45 mm and angle of inclination of 60 degrees, was equivalent in equipment resistance to a vertically positioned armor sheet with a thickness of 75 – 80 mm.”

                      I don’t know who, Baryatinsky or the author, forgot to indicate that this statement is true for guns with a caliber of not more than 45 mm. And with the growth of the caliber, the breaking effect of the projectile increased. By 75-88 mm, this effect was so strong that the tilt of the armor did not play a special role. Although, of course, there was a slight increase in resistance. But very small.
                      Yes, the T-IVH had 80 mm armor (in some places!) And a very powerful 75 mm gun, but, in fact, this did not give him an overwhelming advantage over the T-34 arr. 1943

                      How many times have I read such distortions (unexpected and illogical conclusions) of this author on certain topics. It is so humiliating that you are considered a fool, and they write it like that. This is his corporate identity.
                      But in all other respects, the T-IVH defense completely lost the T-34.

                      There are no words. The T-34 with a 45 mm cardboard in the forehead lost the Pz.IV with 67 mm armor in the forehead.
                      And black, of course, is white.
                      that tanks are not fighting against each other in a spherical vacuum

                      Tanks generally fight each other only in WOT and in Soviet films. In fact, for the entire war of tank battles was, on the fingers count.
                      T-34 with its anti-shell armor

                      T-34 armor reservation was back in the 30s. Those. even before his birth.
                      after just a few shots, the coulters buried themselves so deep in the ground that pulling them out of there to deploy the cannon became a completely non-trivial task, which as a rule could not be solved in battle.

                      author, writing escho. In RuNet is full of all sorts of stupid tales on this subject. List them further.
                      And just as well, the Pak 40 did not allow forces of calculation to move around the battlefield.

                      The author watches a lot of Soviet cinema and reads Runet. Three "inches were not allowed to be" moved by calculation forces across the battlefield ".
                      The author apparently does not know what calculations they had, what weight, and also what is a "box with shells."
                      In addition, the ZIS-3 classmates were PaK 97/38, not PaK40.
                      its 30 mm sides were confidently struck not only by the 57-mm ZiS-2, but by the good old "forty-foot".

                      In the imagination of the author. Due to the fact that he does not know that their reduced thickness was 40 mm.
                      ==
                      I’ll skip a couple of sections, I'm tired of reading and commenting on this nonsense.
                      ==
                      Manufacturability
                      According to this parameter, the T-IVH was miserably losing the T-34.

                      Yeah. The shoe box is certainly more complex in the shape of the T-34 case with littered sides and fenders.
                      The armor plates had special fasteners, as if they were inserted into each other (on dowels), and then they were welded manually, which required a lot of time and highly skilled workers.

                      But the hulls from the blow with a bovanka were not scattered into its component parts.
                      the sides of the "four" were quite confidently struck by our "forty-five" from 250 m.

                      If the author knew the basics of geometry, he could easily calculate that as soon as the German BTT enters the range of the angle of attack of the side of 30 degrees, to the nearest panzergrenade, standing calculation of the forty-foot will be only 110-115 m. And he will easily make a set of this calculation funeral even from MP40.
                      As a result, the Germans spent a lot of effort and time to create a combat vehicle ... who had no visible superiority over the much simpler and easier to manufacture T-34-76 arr. 1943

                      The apotheosis of delirium. T-34/76 in combat qualities, even can not be compared with Pz.IV. Even the T-34/85 did not reach this level very seriously, and in all respects. But the author does not care. He continues his empty phrases.
                      1. -1
                        31 May 2019 17: 13
                        Kolya, I am sincerely grateful to you that you began to write your bullshit a few days after the discussion of the topic was completed. Do not distract me, well done! love
                      2. -1
                        1 June 2019 09: 35
                        overdose of purgen ....
            2. Oct
              0
              29 May 2019 02: 00
              In addition to machine tools, there are also materials that can withstand the corresponding loads, but at the same time are quite technologically advanced, and not worth as an ingot of gold of the same weight
        2. 0
          28 May 2019 23: 00
          and 2 years they do not bring to mind - this is nonsense

          You would still read the previous article, there this issue is dealt with in great detail. Including a list of changes that have been made instead.
      4. 0
        31 May 2019 17: 10
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        and at the same time make the T-34M, which will correct all the flaws of the "thirty-four"

        Talk about the T-34M is completely meaningless. This is a talk about what was not and could never be. Even the T-34T did not what to say about the T-34M.
      5. 0
        4 June 2019 06: 15
        It is strange that there are allegedly more hits in the forehead of the hull than in the forehead of the tower. In theory, it should be the other way around. The forehead of the hull is partially shielded by the terrain, and the tower is higher and it is easier to get into it from afar.
    3. +2
      27 May 2019 19: 34
      2) as for the reservation, it was in vain brought up to 45mm everywhere - it would be better to spend this weight on strengthening the frontal projection at least to 60mm, this would significantly improve the resistance to 75mm PTO guns, although the hatch area would remain ... The t-34 has 85 problems with centering, which is why the tower was moved a little back. I think because of this and could not put more armor on the front in the year 43, there are too many design changes.
      1. +5
        27 May 2019 20: 33
        namely, problems with alignment ...., a forward-shifted tower, overloaded front rollers ... but the screens were cooking ....
    4. +5
      27 May 2019 20: 33
      Quote: ser56
      it would be better to spend this weight on strengthening the frontal projection at least up to 60mm, this would significantly improve the resistance to 75mm PTO guns, although the hatch area would remain ...

      No. Screening of T-34 in 10-20 mm showed good results of resistance to 50 mm Pak38, resistance to 75 mm Pak 40 is unsatisfactory. hi
      1. -1
        28 May 2019 12: 33
        Quote: loft79
        No. Screening of T-34 in 10-20 mm showed good results of resistance to 50 mm Pak38, resistance to 75 mm Pak 40 is unsatisfactory.

        in 41-42, protection from 50 mm was the main ... and then it was possible to do not shielding, but to put a monolith - its resistance to 75 is higher ...
        1. +3
          28 May 2019 13: 14
          In 41-42, the main thing was to establish production and get rid of childhood diseases. Shielding, if memory serves, tested both spaced and welded. Spaced was good against cumulative, armor-piercing it tore off, welded did not show good resistance against both types of shells. They managed to get an effective forehead against the Pak-40 only on the T-44 (medium, 90mm / 60) hi
          1. +1
            28 May 2019 15: 29
            Quote: loft79
            In 41-42, the main thing was to establish production and get rid of childhood diseases.

            I repeat, to drive tanks with such filters and a review are essentially wrecking ... request
            alterations are minimal ... it’s how they sharply reduced the gas content by transferring one vent. cap in place over the shutter and turning on one fan to blow, and the other to the exhaust ...
            1. 0
              28 May 2019 18: 12
              Quote: ser56
              alterations as minimal ...

              Not very sure.
              1. +1
                29 May 2019 14: 41
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Not very sure.

                as you know, a new box was put on the same seats - that means it’s a matter of organization, no more ... the filters are even simpler ... but to weld the turret it is necessary to set up a new welding post, but the tank is for battle, and not for production. .. However, if you look at the post-war case on aviation, then this was the norm in the USSR - the priority of production, the case of tanks was not - otherwise it would have learned a lot .... feel
                1. 0
                  29 May 2019 16: 17
                  Quote: ser56
                  Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                  Not very sure.

                  as you know, a new box was put on the same seats - that means it’s a matter of organization, no more ... the filters are even simpler ... but to weld the turret it is necessary to set up a new welding post, but the tank is for battle, and not for production. .. However, if you look at the post-war case on aviation, then this was the norm in the USSR - the priority of production, the case of tanks was not - otherwise it would have learned a lot .... feel

                  Not quite an organization, it required a lot of additional machines (extra gears and bearings in the gearbox), the assembly was harder and longer.
                  In the USSR of that time, the tank was just for production, which is why they drove huge masses of under-tanks to the front, hence unnecessary losses, which again led to the task of increasing gross output. A vicious circle for which tankers paid with their lives and health.
                  1. +2
                    1 June 2019 10: 31
                    In addition to tankers, there is also infantry with artillery. Ours and the enemy. To cover ours, 3 conventional tanks are better than 1 "perfect" one. And for the enemy, any 3 tanks are worse than 1 "best in the world". And 1 to 3 is still not enough. The difference in standard hours per unit of equipment is multiple. Is it a shame that the Germans "had everything better and richer, but they lost to stupid and poor quilted jackets"? By the way, the Germans were very lucky that the Soviets did not have the concept of "genocide of inferior peoples" for the victory of communism throughout the world. Otherwise, the Germans would be remembered now only in the past tense. By the way, the British did not mind.
                    So temper your German sympathies, especially since if you were "right" you yourself would definitely not exist in the world.
                    1. +1
                      2 June 2019 06: 58
                      Quote: meandr51
                      In addition to tankers, there is also infantry with artillery. Ours and the enemy. To cover ours, 3 conventional tanks are better than 1 "perfect" one. And for the enemy, any 3 tanks are worse than 1 "best in the world". And 1 to 3 is still not enough. The difference in standard hours per unit of equipment is multiple. Is it a shame that the Germans "had everything better and richer, but they lost to stupid and poor quilted jackets"? By the way, the Germans were very lucky that the Soviets did not have the concept of "genocide of inferior peoples" for the victory of communism throughout the world. Otherwise, the Germans would be remembered now only in the past tense. By the way, the British did not mind.
                      So temper your German sympathies, especially since if you were "right" you yourself would definitely not exist in the world.

                      You have the wrong message: instead of three ersatz tanks, you could produce 2,8 normal tanks. But the losses would be half as much.
    5. +1
      27 May 2019 23: 17
      I did not know that the T-34 was tested at the American training ground. Why, for what purpose?
      1. +2
        28 May 2019 01: 05
        Quote: Blacksmith 55
        I did not know that the T-34 was tested at the American training ground. Why, for what purpose?

        Not only the T-34, but also the KV. Officially for review, but I believe that the opinion of the Americans was taken into account in the further modernization of the tanks. At this link you will find the conclusion of the Americans.
    6. +1
      28 May 2019 06: 02
      At one time, I had the pleasure of communicating with Valerian Vasilievich Zelenov.
      Deputy Chief Designer of YaAZ, and later, Chief Specialist in Gearboxes, YaMZ. He believed that in the USSR no one could not only produce, but also design a checkpoint that meets international standards. And it was voiced in the mid-80s!
      1. 0
        31 May 2019 17: 15
        Quote: ignoto
        Valerian Vasilievich Zelenov.
        Deputy Chief Designer of YaAZ, and later, Chief Specialist in Gearboxes, YaMZ. He believed that in the USSR no one could not only produce, but also design a checkpoint that meets international standards.

        Only now he expressed it most likely only in private conversations. Otherwise, personally for him there could be consequences.
        But actually he was right, of course.
      2. 0
        12 June 2019 12: 15
        Do you really believe that the design and manufacture of manual transmission is more complicated than, for example, a jet engine? I assure you this is not so. The issue of financing and prioritization. No more.
    7. 0
      28 May 2019 09: 38
      Quote: ser56
      frontal projection up to at least 60mm

      the problem of resilience had to be addressed primarily for the tower.
      and not so simple - at t34 the tower was located close to the front and the load on the front axle was close to the maximum. Increasing the armor to 60mm would greatly add to the load and would have to adapt the chassis, and possibly the transmission.
      besides, the factories barely managed to cope with 45mm sheets of armor, the industry was ready to work with thicker armor literally in 1-2 factories
      I personally think that there was a small reserve for thickening the armor of the tower, for example, with plates or screens, a small screen or caterpillar could be hung on the forehead, but that’s all.
      before the protection of the tower t34-85 was still far away.
    8. -11
      28 May 2019 10: 40
      The author, as before, does not want to know the materiel and therefore fantasizes throughout Ivanovo.
      The periscopic sight was on the T-34-76 with 1940 (PT-6-1, then PT-4-7) and it was always near the telescopic sight (that is, with a convenient transition of cells one to another). Therefore, here the visibility is the same as in 41, in 44.
      The battlefield on some tanks really was added and it was a step forward, the T-34-76, just two years later the war, turned from a self-propelled turret into an ersatz tank (level Pz.38 (t), only three times the weight more). And if you use turret self-propelled guns and ersatz tanks as full-fledged tanks, you’ll get a loss level three times that of the enemy. In 1943 17752 medium tanks (of which 17129 T-34-76) were shipped to the front (not to be confused with production!); losses amounted to 14700 medium tanks, which amounted to almost 83% of the shipped. Then it got worse and worse, the situation was extended in 1942, when the percentage of losses to the shipped was 56%.
      The 5-speed gearbox was far from being installed on all tanks, plant No. 183, the main manufacturer of the T-34, still produced tanks from the 4-speed gearbox (and even later the T-34-85) due to the lack of gear equipment.
      The device MK-4 had no increase.
      The passage about strike and defense is strange. Pz.-IV and T-34, both had "cardboard" sides, and the extra 15mm of T-34 armor gave only extra weight. The frontal parts of the German's hull were not penetrated by 3 "Russian cannons from any distance with caliber shells. That is, the" German "had a qualitative superiority in booking at least one, the most important, frontal projection. The T-34 everywhere had a" cardboard " essentially bulletproof armor.
      And why did the T-34 have an advantage in the fight against infantry, artillery and other non-armored targets? If the main 3 "high-explosive projectile was cast iron, with ersatz explosive.
      Specific power can not be considered separately from the transmission: the relatively small power of the German engine was offset by an excellent transmission and vice versa - the wretchedness of the Russian transmission had to be compensated for by an overly powerful and very expensive diesel engine.
      Semiautomatic welding machines were not used at all plants, moreover, the German case was more technological than the T-34 case.
      So T-34-76 and in 1943 lost in all respects to the German four (with the exception of the power reserve). Those. "Four" for the longest time, was the best medium tank of the WWII.
      1. +2
        28 May 2019 12: 41
        Quote: Jura 27
        Power density cannot be considered separately from the transmission:

        as well as air preparation systems - up to 70 hp was lost there
      2. +1
        28 May 2019 16: 02
        Quote: Jura 27
        The periscopic sight has been on the T-34-76 since 1940 (PT-6-1, then PT-4-7) and it was always located next to the telescopic sight (i.e., with a convenient transition of cells from one to another).

        Oh yes ... the location of the sights was extremely convenient. smile
        Access to the starting flywheel of the electric drive is hindered from below by the electric motor housing, on the left by the viewing device and the tower housing, on the right by the forehead and PT-6 device. Turning the tower in any direction is possible only if the head deviates from the forehead of the PT-6 device, i.e. the rotation of the tower is actually done blindly ...
        Telescopic sight TOD-6.
        The window of the scale of angles of aiming of the telescopic sight is blocked by the lever of the angles of the terrain of the PT-6 device ... Installation of sighting data is possible at elevation angles of 4 - 5,5 degrees and 9 - 12 degrees, which actually makes it impossible to fire with the TOD-6 sight. The drum of the aiming angle scale is located in the middle of the sight and access to it is extremely difficult.
        Periscope sight PT-6.
        At an elevation angle of 7 degrees and below, to the maximum angle of descent, access to the handle of the all-round visibility mechanism is possible with only three fingers due to the fact that the sector of the gun’s lifting mechanism does not allow the grip of the handle by the hand. The indicated position does not provide a quick view of the terrain.
        1. 0
          28 May 2019 18: 54
          [/ quote] Oh yes ... the location of the sights was extremely convenient. [quote]

          Was comfortable transition from one to another, as they were nearby, - telescopic at the breech, peroscopic a little to the left. And their mutual arrangement was both in 1940, and in 1944 on the T-34-76. About what, I wrote to TS.
      3. +2
        28 May 2019 16: 09
        The author, as before, does not want to know the materiel and therefore fantasizes throughout Ivanovo.

        Properly painted, minus signers and where are your arguments? Yes, and the author is in no hurry to answer something
        1. 0
          28 May 2019 19: 00
          [/ quote] Properly painted, minuscule and where are your arguments? Yes, and the author is in no hurry to answer something [quote]

          For arguments, you need to know the materiel, and with this, that the TS, the minus one, as before, are extremely sad.
        2. +3
          28 May 2019 19: 46
          Quote: armata_armata
          And the author is in no hurry to answer

          In your opinion, should I run to answer Yura27 losing toilet articles on the way? :) I have other things in general, but I have no desire to communicate with Yura for 27 for a long time. But if you are interested
          Quote: Jura 27
          The periscopic sight was on the T-34-76 with 1940 (PT-6-1, then PT-4-7) and it was always near the telescopic sight (that is, with a convenient transition of cells one to another). Therefore, here the visibility is the same as in 41, in 44.

          No there was not the same visibility, because the initially set sight was unsuccessful, it was difficult to use it. And then they very often neglected them, not installing them in a tank for the sake of economy - they stayed on the bulletproof vests on the turret, but the sight itself was not there.
          Quote: Jura 27
          In 1943 the front was shipped (not to be confused with the production!) 17752 medium tank (of which 17129 T-34-76); losses amounted to 14700 medium tanks, which accounted for almost 83% of the shipped.

          I'm not going to run ahead of the locomotive - the analysis of the losses of our tanks for 1942 was, I will do in 1943, and there, perhaps, there are more nuances than in 1942. In general, it will be interesting :)
          Quote: Jura 27
          The device MK-4 had no increase.

          From what I heard about this device from eyewitnesses, I still had, albeit insignificant, but I don’t have exact passport data for it.
          Quote: Jura 27
          The passage about strike and defense is strange. Pz.-IV and T-34, both had "cardboard" sides, and the extra 15mm of T-34 armor gave only extra weight.

          This extra weight provided very good protection against 37-mm "mallets" and quite acceptable even against a 50-mm Pak 38, but the 30-mm sides of the "four" were quite confidently amazed by our "forty-five" from 250 m. That is, I, in general -that, he wrote a lot of "letters" on the topic that for a confident fight against the T-34, the Germans needed a 75-mm cannon, but for the T-IV, a 45-57-mm anti-tank gun was quite enough. This is a fundamental difference, for the reasons indicated in this article and the previous ones, since, unlike the 37-50 mm, the German 75s were more difficult, more expensive, and, in fact, were immobile on the battlefield - as a rule, they were moved and even deployed in battle. was impossible.
          Quote: Jura 27
          The frontal parts of the German's hull were not penetrated by the 3 "cannons of the Russians from any distance with caliber shells.

          Incorrect, the "blank" BR-350BSP punched accurately.
          Quote: Jura 27
          And why is this T-34 had the advantage in the fight against infantry, artillery and other non-armored targets?

          With better protected sides
          Quote: Jura 27
          If the main 3 "high-explosive projectile was cast iron, with an ersatz explosive.

          And who said he was the main one? Yura27? Oh well...
          Quote: Jura 27
          Specific power cannot be considered separately from the transmission: the relatively low power of the German engine was compensated for by the excellent transmission

          This phrase is a technical absurdity. More precisely, in situations where the T-34 mechanics fought the entire battle in 2nd gear, it would make sense, but with the advent of a five-speed gearbox and clutch refinements, speeds began to "stick" pretty well, the T-34 received all the advantages of a high specific power.
          Because the power density truly depends on the transmission only if we cannot shift gears.
          Quote: Jura 27
          Semiautomatic welding machines were not used at all plants, moreover, the German case was more technological than the T-34 case.

          I have already explained why this was not.
          1. 0
            28 May 2019 22: 08
            Andrey, can you enlighten (for article +100500 hi ) from the comment, Jura 27-The periscope sight was on the T-34-76 since 1940 (PT-6-1, then PT-4-7) . Maybe I'm dull, but in 1940, the sights could have been visible, but the T-34-76 still did not exist and was not in 1940.
          2. +6
            28 May 2019 22: 11
            You see what a misfortune.

            On the rivets, in this case, you were in control. But comparisons began, and you again could not resist - you play along with "ours". You have such a tendency.
            1. Art. The German is definitely stronger. Its gun is closer to the S-53 than to the F-34. You generally admit this, but throw in all sorts of "buts" about working on soft targets (did you carry a lot of buckshot in a tank ammo?), Old shots with an increased explosive weight (where can tankers get them? And why? With other ballistics, for which the sight is not calculated), the manufacturability of the gun (the matter is of paramount importance, but if the machine is already there and entered the battle, the manufacturability no longer worries anyone).
            2. Armor. Then of course you came off. For armor penetration meters, you give the text of Baryatinsky, which also gives on the one hand - on the other hand, and does not provide a link (in the text I know). I didn’t find any polygon data right away, but I couldn’t penetrate 80 mm of German armor from the F-34 at all, from any distance (although the question remains whether the four's forehead corresponded to the side of the Tiger, which was fired at in Niibt, in terms of quality), but Pak 40 should take the T-34 from a kilometer as you like (which does not cancel the advice to the anti-tankers to let it closer).

            In general, armor / weapons. A more powerful forehead (except for the tower) and a much more powerful weapon gave the four a duel quality advantage.
            Along the sides. Your desire to beat the four on board is reminiscent of the desire of other authors to nightmare the Abrams in the same way. First of all. Tanks, as a rule, do not "allow to enter the sides" of towed anti-tank equipment. They drive themselves into the firebags of the unsuppressed defense. Will the fours do this or not - there is no longer demand from the tank, but from the father-commander. Secondly. No Soviet 57mm in 42-43 was worth mentioning. There were 45 and 76. If with 76 everything is clear, then with 45 it is more difficult. Everything that you wrote about 50mm vs T-34 is also relevant for 45mm vs four. Yes, it does. But it doesn't always stop.

            3. Overview (and manageability). They wrote a lot about optics, but mentioned the main point in passing. T-34 is T-4, in which the commander is killed for the main gunner. So that
            it can be argued that the crew of the T-34 in terms of awareness came close to the T-IVH, if there was a difference, then it is not too significant. And by the way, it’s not a fact that in favor of a German tank

            Claim - do not roll bags.

            4. Running - mobility. Again drew a 500-horsepower diesel engine. This is the motor of the Korean War. In the 42nd he gave 400 with great luck. Ground pressure. Modern tanks have 0,9-1,2. There was no such cardinal difference between the machines. The suspension is still terrible, still does not hold a straight line.
            5. Fire safety. You, I see, the tank on the entire wall of the BO has ceased to affect the survival of the crew. I would venture to admit that you got excited. I would like to believe that you will not declare the expression "to burn in a tank" a slander against the USSR since the Ogonyok.

            6.
            .for the Red Army came the era of deep operations, in which they needed an unpretentious and reliable tank, .... This is the T-34-76 mod. 1943 "knew how" to do better T-IVH.

            If I have not missed anything, then the basis for such statements is, as it were, greater mobility and, as it were, greater resistance to old vocational schools. If you consider that these aspects are approximately equal, it turns out that you still have an infantry tank that is used as a cruiser. One thing is good, he began to get to the front line more often.

            7.
            . As a result, the Germans spent a lot of effort and time on the creation of a combat vehicle ... that did not have a visible superiority over the much simpler and easier to manufacture T-34-76 mod. 1943


            In theory. In practice, the four were cheaper than Sherman. It is impossible to speak seriously about the T-34, but purely technologically it is much more complicated than Sherman. To blame the Germans that their blitzkrieg machine was not optimized for a total war is somehow strange. Enough has been done or not - a separate conversation.
            1. 0
              28 May 2019 22: 58
              I would say brilliantly, but there is a reason to protect (oh my god, what an objective I am wassat ) Great namesake.

              I do not have a detailed understanding of the armored penetration of PTRD and PTRS. 30-40 mm (how much exactly?) And what (which steel?) They punched from a distance of 200 meters at an angle of about 90 degrees.

              Depends on this whether they are an important factor in the war, significantly limiting the effectiveness of equipment with the level of booking a board like PzIII and PzIV.
              1. +2
                28 May 2019 23: 27
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                Depends on this whether they are an important factor in the war, significantly limiting the effectiveness of technology

                This is an interesting question.

                On the one hand, there were a lot of PTR in the Soviet division until the very end. Early response to bazookas and faustas. On the other hand, I have never heard that this bothered the Panzerwaffe at least. Speaking of the late four, from the point of view of the PTR, the screen, even if only 5mm, is a serious problem.

                By the way. The finest hour of Faust is ahead, but he appeared just in the fall of the 43rd.
                1. +3
                  29 May 2019 18: 57
                  Regarding the reservation of the tank PZ-4.
                  80mm body armor plates made their way: 85 mm anti-aircraft gun from a distance of 1000m / 0gr, 76 mm guns ZIS-3 and F-34, armor-piercing projectile BR-350BSP from a distance of 100m / 0gr, sub-caliber 400m / 0gr. With a 45mm caliber projectile, M-42 guns from a distance of 400m / 0g.
                  A 50mm frontal armor plate of the tower made its way: 76 mm armor-piercing projectile BR-350BSP from a distance of 1800m / 0gr, armor-piercing projectile 45mm gun M-42 from a distance of 700m / 0gr.
                  30mm armor plates of the sides and stern penetrated: 76mm armor-piercing shells from any distance, even at heading angles of 60g, 76 steel high-explosive fragmentation shells from a distance of 500m, a 45mm T-70 tank gun and a PT gun model 37g, armor-piercing shell from a distance of 1000m / 0gr side of the hull, 600m / 0gr side of the tower; 45 mm anti-tank gun M-42 sides freely penetrated from a distance of the order of 1500 m / 0 g, anti-tank gun PTRD B-32-100 m / 0 g bullet, BS-41-400 m / 0 g bullet.
                  Thus, the armor protection of the PZ-4 in the side projection is extremely insufficient, and in the frontal it is very vulnerable to many anti-tank weapons.
                  Literature 1) "Central Research Institute 48 Study of armor protection of tanks of the German army, 42g",
                  2) "GAU RKKA Report on the test of shelling German tanks by shelling with armor-piercing and fragmentation shells from tank guns, 42g" 3) "GAU RKKA Report on testing the armor protection of the T-6 tank by shelling, 43g"
                  1. -1
                    30 May 2019 09: 37
                    Quote: vetal1942
                    Thus, the armor protection of the PZ-4 in the side projection is extremely insufficient, and in the frontal it is very vulnerable to many anti-tank weapons.

                    Thus, the forehead of four from what is in reality, makes its way
                    1. A continuous (tubeless) 76 mm projectile at point blank range.
                    2. Subcaliber 45 and 76 mm with a minimum distance. The side and the tower are yes, poorly protected, but not Tiger tea.
                    Conclusion - with the F-34 you need to do something. In reality, they did.
                    1. +1
                      30 May 2019 15: 26
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Thus, the forehead of four from what is in reality, makes its way

                      Not a forehead :))) And two parts of this "forehead", because the tower had 50 mm, and 80 mm armor plates were connected with 25 mm armor plate :)
                      1. -1
                        30 May 2019 15: 42
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Not a forehead :))

                        The forehead case.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        the tower had 50 mm

                        Yes, the tower at 43 is armored badly. Equally with T-34-76
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        armor plates connected 25 mm armor plate

                        How did you like it.
                        This sheet is horizontal. You can get on it on the terrain or in the city. As in the rest of the roof / bottom.

                        By the way. On the terrain, when shooting from top to bottom, the rational angles of the T-34 are much worse. So where the Germans have 25 mm in the T-34 - the entire forehead.
                      2. 0
                        30 May 2019 16: 53
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The forehead case.

                        And not completely :)))
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Yes, the tower at 43 is armored badly. Equally with T-34-76

                        Well, at least there is a consensus
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        How did you like it.
                        This sheet is horizontal.

                        Hmmm ... How interesting. That is, 45 mm armor T-34 in the bow had a slope in 60 hail - is it vertical, and in T-IV, 25 mm located at an angle 72 hail - horizontal? :)))
                      3. +1
                        31 May 2019 13: 25
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        That is, the 45 mm T-34 armor plate in the bow had a slope of 60 degrees - it is vertical, and for the T-IV, 25 mm located at an angle of 72 degrees - horizontal? :)))

                        Sheet T-34 is NOT ricochet. The tilt angle is not enough.
                        Sheet Pz.IV ricocheting.
                      4. +1
                        2 June 2019 13: 05
                        Let's say politely, your views are somewhat erroneous). Almost any sharp-headed projectile (without an armor-piercing tip), at a meeting angle of 60 degrees, goes into rebound! According to GAU RKKA reports, 37mm, 50mm and even 88mm sharp-headed shells ricochet from an inclined 45 mm armor, although the latter left a huge gap in the armor. Any inclined armor is a huge plus when fired at large heading angles, since in this case the projectile goes along the tangent not only in the vertical plane, but also in the horizontal, further increasing the likelihood of a rebound! For example, at a heading angle of 30 degrees, the upper frontal sheet of the T-34 no longer made its way out of the Pak 40 at a distance of 500-600m, and despite the armor-piercing tip, the shell goes into rebound. Panther’s upper frontal sheet with a slope of 55 degrees and a thickness of 80 mm sent even 122 mm sharp-headed shells to ricochet at distances of over 700m, surprisingly, right? Inclined armor is very effective against short cores of reel pod caliber shells, which practically do not normalize and go very well to rebound! A real example: a 50-caliber projectile from PAK38 pierces a 90-mm vertical armor plate with a distance of 500 m, a 75 mm HF side with 700 m !, and the upper frontal sheet of the T-34 with difficulty only with 400 m (2 holes of 10 shots)! The inclined armor at large angles was also very effective against early cumulative shells, due to malfunction or incorrect firing of the fuse at large angles of meeting.
                2. 0
                  29 May 2019 20: 35
                  so that it bothers the Panzervaff


                  oh well, how many times they told the world: the PTR is not visible, there are a lot of them, they can shoot close with dense fire, they shot the gun barrel "Tiger" = the panzerwaffe's sadness
                  1. +2
                    30 May 2019 09: 38
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    shot "Tiger" gun barrel = Panzerwaffe sadness

                    Tigrovody all on the nerves.
                    1. -1
                      30 May 2019 20: 13
                      Tigrovody all on the nerves.


                      - How effective were Russian anti-tank rifles?
                      - Pz-III and Pz-IV they simply punched into the side.


                      Russians widely used anti-tank rifles, which are easy
                      pierced the armor of our tanks. Our losses were very large. Many of ours
                      comrades were fatally wounded in their tanks, and seriously wounded
                      had to be evacuated.


                      I'll be back from a business trip
                      1. 0
                        30 May 2019 20: 20
                        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                        easily
                        pierced the armor of our tanks. Our losses were very large.

                        Oh, this Carius.

                        And what kind of tanks is he writing about?
                      2. -1
                        30 May 2019 20: 26
                        it’s not about the tiger at all, I think I read that you can’t eat the PTR of the Tiger, but bite over the little things = sadness
                        but for treshka and four, he positioned the PTR as an unpleasant problem
                      3. 0
                        30 May 2019 23: 57
                        I mean, he started an eastern company at 38t
                      4. -1
                        31 May 2019 03: 32
                        Yes, one of the quotes about the period is 38 (t). Actually, I always always positioned the PTRD as a serious argument against light tanks, an unpleasant problem against treshki and potential sources of sadness for heavy ones. Something from the phone about the sadness for the heavy does not google - maybe I didn’t read from him. Although this possibility of such sadness is understandable
            2. -1
              29 May 2019 01: 52
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Did you take a lot of bucks in a tank BC?

              By the beginning of 1943, they no longer carried.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              old shots with an increased weight of explosives (where do tankmen get them? And why? With another ballistics that the sight is not designed for)

              And it is necessary, at the range of a direct shot?
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              I did not immediately find polygon data, but from the fact that there is - X-NUMX mm of German armor F-80 did not break through at all

              In the article I wrote exactly this way - for caliber shells, I used a punched caliper, though. And in response to the commentary Yurin - yes, I missed that he was writing exactly about 80-mm, after reading it seemed that he was talking about the entire projection. Again in the forehead of the fours there were both 80 and 50 and 25 mm.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              but Pak 40 should take T-34 from a kilometer as you like

              Well, there is an opinion that not shmogla yet.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              In general, armor / weapons. A more powerful forehead (except for the tower) and a much more powerful weapon gave the four a duel quality advantage.

              I didn't give a quality one, because T-4 remained vulnerable. Invulnerable were only some details.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              First of all. Tanks, as a rule, do not "allow to enter the sides" by towed ATC

              Even as they allow. And it happened many times.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Claim - do not roll bags.

              well and you them .... you do not move too much
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Chassis - mobility. Again drew 500-strong diesel. This is the motor of the Korean War. In 42, he and 400 gave with great luck.

              Yes, why would?
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Ground pressure. In modern tanks 0,9-1,2.

              Do you understand that the pressure on the ground and the specific power of the machine are interrelated things? And what modern tanks in this parameter superior tanks of the Second World War? That is, your comparison is incorrect.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              Precaution You, I see, the tank on the entire wall of the BO has ceased to influence the survival of the crew.

              Did not stop. And the German tanks did not stop burning, and ours.
              Our tank is better protected from the fire of small-caliber artillery, and if 75 mm projectile flew into it, then, I apologize, the crew died. With or without fire.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              You still have an infantry tank, which is used as a cruiser. One thing is good, I began to reach the front line more often.

              The worst thing is, he also drove over the front line as if he was going home :))) Read about the distances of tank raids in 1943-44.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              In theory. In practice, the four cost less than Sherman.

              You are comparing the incomparable, and I'm even afraid to ask - how. I hope not at the dollar rate? :)))
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              To blame the Germans that their blitzkrieg machine was not optimized for total war, somehow strange

              No, not strange, because with 1941 r the Germans had enough time to think. They didn’t use it for a number of reasons, they didn’t make a tank for total war - why don't I blame them for that?
              1. 0
                30 May 2019 10: 25
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                there was enough time for reflection.

                They thought and did the opposite - Panther. Strategically, this was probably a mistake, but the quality of the machine itself does not change.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                I hope not at the dollar? :)))

                According to him, native. Reich had an interesting economy, but still not the USSR.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Read about tank raid distances

                And I do not argue that he began to ride. I doubt that he drove better than the four, and this, therefore, is his advantage.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                if a 75 mm shell flew into it, then, I’m sorry, the crew died

                In your reality there were no burnt and burnt tankers or what?

                By the way, Cooper writes that the Germans shot at the tank that had risen before the fire. A damaged tank is being restored, a burned-out tank is not.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                You understand that the pressure on the ground and the specific power of the machine are interconnected things

                No.
                I’ll venture to suggest that you mean diesel traction on the bottoms. This is true, but it has not been seen that they complained to the four in this regard (they complained to Sherman with his high-speed aircraft engines).
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Yes, why

                EMNIP, 450 was written in the instructions for the tank’s materiel. We assume that this is the only engine in the USSR that worked as it was written.

                Again, more importantly, the relatively smooth torque curve made it possible to smooth gearbox problems.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                it happened many times

                In the ninth episode of your epic, I have to explain to you that if the towed art has surrounded the tanks - there is no demand from industry here.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                opinion that I couldn’t.

                Opinions are different. The landfill has not yet been found, but it is impossible to believe that they did not check.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                it is necessary, on the range of a direct shot

                Of course. The Soviets (and the Yankees) made weak single-speed landmines for a reason.
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                It didn’t give high-quality, because the T-4 remained vulnerable.

                And here it would be necessary to understand more seriously before you reach the Panthers.

                Life has developed so that tanks on both sides are used as anti-tank guns. In this case, one tank can be shot at whatever you like, and the second has "some protected parts", specifically the hull's forehead. Examples: late four - T-34-76, Panther - T-34-85, Panther - Sherman 76, IS-2 late - Panther (we leave out of brackets that IS is not PTO).

                So. Is this situation a "quality superiority" of one of the parties?

                By the way. Again I see nonsense about the Panther - a heavy tank. Panther is a machine of tank divisions. Who makes what kind of weight such a machine - concerns the organization of the rear, nothing more. If Grant is one and a half times heavier than a troika, this is not a reason to say that Grant is a heavy tank, and Stuart should be taken as a comparison with a troika.
                1. +1
                  30 May 2019 17: 14
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  By the way. Again I see the nonsense about Panther - a heavy tank. Panther - the car tank divisions.

                  Not. I understand your desire to fashion from the Panther OBT - but it was not so, the Germans continued to sculpt and medium and heavier vehicles. However, we will have time to talk about it :)
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  According to him, native. Reich had an interesting economy, but still not the USSR.

                  Well, in vain. Of course, it is possible to measure the dollar rate, but the assessment will be extremely inaccurate and you should not draw any conclusions on it. The Germans had something very strange with pricing, even on the example of warships.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  I doubt that he drove a better four, and this, therefore, is his advantage.

                  The range of the T-34 arr 1943 g on one refueling is definitely more - and this is an advantage. Let us recall the German tankers, who hung their tanks with tinless canisters. This is, by the way, about fire safety
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  In your reality there were no burnt and burnt tankers or what?

                  There were, of course. But that's what you say? The fact of having burned tankers and your statement that the T-34 was more combustible than the four of them have nothing in common.
                  I can repeat it again - the tanks detonated from projectiles not lower than 75 mm. Burn diesel burned and of smaller calibers, if the projectile broke the tank and spray it. In addition, the fuel leaked to the floor, as well as the oiled clothing of the tankers themselves, could catch fire. But for all that, breaking the T-34 with a caliber less than 75 was difficult, and when penetrating the 75 mm, fire as a striking factor on my IMHO no longer played a big role, since the 75 mm gap in the fighting compartment killed the people there. They burned after that, but you cannot kill a person twice.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  I would venture to suggest that you mean diesel thrust on bottoms. This is true, but it was not met that four were complained about in this regard.

                  Those who went to the four usually had no opportunity to compare with the T-34
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  In the ninth episode of your epic, I have to explain to you that if the towed art has surrounded the tanks - there is no demand from industry here.

                  This is a normal combat situation because the VET is deployed to provide cross-flank fire. Sometimes his positions are found, sometimes not.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Life has developed so that tanks on both sides are used as anti-tank guns. In this case, one tank can be shot at whatever you like, and the second has "some protected parts", specifically the hull's forehead.

                  The T-34 also had "some protected part", oddly enough - this is the hull's forehead :))))
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  So. Is this situation a "quality superiority" of one of the parties?

                  no, it's not. Of course, the foursome is better protected in the forehead, and in general has the best TVET capabilities, but this is far from absolute superiority, and it does not give it a qualitative superiority.
                  1. 0
                    30 May 2019 18: 28
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    but the assessment will be extremely inaccurate

                    Not the laboriousness of the same body to measure. We can count the blitz in Opel, if so necessary
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    There were, of course. But what are you saying this to?

                    Moreover, your logic doesn’t work anyway. The fighting compartment should be extremely phlegmatic, let’s say so. The USSR, the Germans, and the States faced this. By the way, hello from the T-64.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Sometimes his positions are discovered, sometimes not

                    That is, the tank enters the non-suppressed PTO, with which they began.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    oddly enough - this is the forehead of the hull

                    Is this from 48 klb forehead enclosure T-34 protected? It seems that you have already discussed.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    absolute superiority, and quality superiority

                    Too many levels of excellence.
                    I have given a number of examples. In all cases, there was a strong VLD, but a relatively vulnerable tower. The fact that all this is not Stuart / Crusider against the Tiger is understandable.
                    1. +1
                      30 May 2019 19: 11
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Not the complexity of the body to measure.

                      Oddly enough, but in this case, perhaps the complexity will be more accurate.
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      To the fact that your logic does not care so and so does not work.

                      And in my opinion, it even works, despite the fact that I do not see your arguments at all. For me, your position looks like "Since the T-34 was on fire, and the tanks of the four were better hidden, the T-34 burned stronger than the four." There is no logic at all. Maybe I don't understand your position?
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      That is, the tank enters the non-suppressed PTO, with which they began.

                      German tanks did it all the time, this is the norm of the German military art. They could not turn the offensive line into the lunar landscape
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Is this from 48 klb forehead enclosure T-34 protected? It seems that you have already discussed.

                      Yes, and I in the article cited various points of view on this question. And what did you bring in defense of your statement?
                      Quote: Cherry Nine
                      Too many levels of excellence.

                      I did not think that 2 is a lot :)))
                      In a specific combat situation "head to head" the four has no absolute advantage, since it can be hit by the T-34, although not over the entire projection area. In other combat situations, the four is inferior to the T-34. On what basis should I diagnose the overall superiority of the four?
                      1. 0
                        30 May 2019 20: 11
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Yes, and I in the article cited various points of view on this question. And what did you bring in defense of your statement?

                        The point of view given in the article is that the four hit the T-34 from a distance of 800-1200 meters, and the T-34 four hit the building - 0 meters (chamber), 100 meters (solid) 400 meters (sub-caliber) projectile. If you add the percentage of hits in the tower / forehead of the hull and it becomes clearer what exactly was the advantage of the four. Isn't it 18%?
                        And why, by the way, the SU-85 was needed like air, like bread.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In other combat situations, the four are inferior to the T-34

                        Interestingly, 68% of all 37 mm hits and 57% of 50 mm were considered safe. Of the sub-caliber shells, you unconsciously expect a better percentage, but in fact it turned out that the expensive sub-caliber 50-mm ammunition gave the same percentage of safe hits as the 37-mm artillery, i.e. 68%.

                        Does this statistic only work in one direction?
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        German tanks did this all the time,

                        In the defense - no longer.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        They could not turn the offensive zone into a lunar landscape with art

                        The expenditure of shells of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht caught up in the 2 / 2 44-th, EMNIP.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Maybe I do not understand your position?

                        1. The hypothesis that the T-34 made its way only to Pak40 and above does not correspond to reality. Including your calculations on 50 mm. Plus, you left out the brackets that the Germans had for almost all short free guns.
                        2. Your premise that detonation is the only problem that can occur when tanks are damaged is incorrect. For fire, detonation is optional. T-34 in the aggregate of circumstances is significantly more fire hazard than the four. First of all, from the point of view of the crew.
                        3. The hypothesis that unprotected tanks in BOs does not affect crew survival is not supported, for example, by the statistics of losses of T-34 / Shermanov and their crews. Even in the same red army.
                        To summarize. The T-34 carried on the wall of the BO at least - fuel, as a maximum - a volumetric explosion. No, the logic "two deaths, and one cannot be avoided" is not suitable for tank designers.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        labor will be more accurate

                        But where to get it. You talk about the heavy construction of the hull and don’t tell, for example, about the high pressure fuel pump or the stabilizer.

                        Summarizing. If the States made a tank for non-core enterprises (although they built a core at the same time it is not known why), and in the USSR the car was originally made for a poorly equipped factory (some T-50 with a cast body for the USSR was too complicated a machine, and not a cast one too) then the Germans had serious tank production and made cars under its capabilities. You, it seems, have already figured out that a ten-fold superiority in the production of tanks does not give a ten-fold superiority in the number of tank divisions.
                      2. +1
                        30 May 2019 20: 46
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The point of view cited in the article is that the four struck T-34 from a distance of 800-1200 meters, and the T-34 four in the body were 0 meters (stone), 100 meters (solid) 400 meters (sour) projectile.

                        You do not understand, or deliberately distort? According to the article, the T-34 corps was amazed at 500 m, the tower was up to 1200 m. At the T-4, the tower was amazed at 1000 m.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Does this statistic only work in one direction?

                        It works for armored T-45 for inclined 34 mm, for vertical 30 mm Т-4, it will undoubtedly be much worse
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        In the defense - no longer.

                        Effective defense is a counterstrike, and the Germans knew and used it.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The expenditure of shells of the Red Army and the Wehrmacht caught up in the 2 / 2 44-th, EMNIP.

                        WHAT is the expense of shells? :))))) We are discussing the tactics of breaking through the defenses of German tanks, if that :)))) WITHOUT CONNECTION with how Soviet tanks did it :)))
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The hypothesis that T-34 made its way only Pak 40 and higher is not true. Including your own calculations on 50mm.

                        You did not understand. 50 mm and below could penetrate T-34, but they almost never caused the detonation of the fuel tanks
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Plus, you left behind the cumulatives that the Germans had for almost all short freestyle guns.

                        And shells almost were not
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Your assumption that detonation is the only problem that can occur with the defeat of tanks, is incorrect.

                        I did not say this anywhere and I will not.
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        For fire detonation is not required.

                        Not required
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        The hypothesis that unprotected tanks in BO do not affect the survival of the crew is not confirmed, for example, by the loss statistics of T-34 / Shermans and their crews

                        Give statistics :))))) Indicating where the crew died from a fire, and where - from the effects of exploding shells :)))))
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Just where to get it.

                        And if there is no place, then why compare? I compare the comparable, that is, the operation process
                      3. +4
                        30 May 2019 23: 46
                        Dear comrades, you are somewhat strange comparing the parameters of armor protection of the T-34 and Pz-4 tanks. In a battle of 1943, the tank was threatened by the following:
                        1) Shelling of regimental, divisional and RGK artillery, mortars. The T-4 tank, due to the thin armor of the sides, roof and bottom, is extremely vulnerable to close artillery 122 and 152 mm artillery ruptures, and even more so to direct hits from these shells, mortar mines, and BM-13 missiles. T-34 has the best armor protection for the sides, roof and bottom.
                        2) Anti-tank mines. Both tanks are very vulnerable, but the T-4 caterpillar is noticeably weaker and the bottom is thinner.
                        3) Patency. To get stuck in a trench, to get stuck in a swamp, an anti-tank moat, hedgehogs, and humps. Well here, and so it is clear who is better.
                        4) The fight against infantry. The side of the T-4 tank confidently made its way out of anti-tank rifles, the caterpillar was bursting with an anti-tank grenade, the air intakes were vulnerable to bottles with a combustible mixture. Before the Panzerfausts appeared, the anti-personnel defense of the T-34 was better.
                        5) Aviation. Both cars were hardly hit by air guns (except for Rudel's guns of course), but with direct hits they were incapacitated by high-explosive air bombs, cumulative PTABs.
                        6) Anti-tank guns. It should be understood that the anti-tank gun has excellent camouflage and often has the ability to fire tanks from airborne projections and close range. I already wrote about powerful PZ-4 boards. By T-34:
                        37mm pak36 (normal penetration of armor-piercing 50 mm (100m), 35mm (500m)) - the lower side of the hull (armor-piercing and sub-caliber up to 500m) side of the tower (sub-caliber 100-200m)
                        50mm pak38 (normal penetration by armor-piercing 90mm (100m), 75mm (500m)) - the upper frontal sheet of the hull (armor-piercing (late PzGr39 with armor-piercing and ballistic tip) -100m, sub-caliber-up to 400m), the tower forehead-up to 1000m, but the probability the rebound from the beveled frontal faces of the tower and the mask of the gun is great. The sides made their way much easier, but provided the tank with safe maneuvering to angles of 40-45 gr.
                        75mm pak 40 (penetration by PzGr39 projectile: 1000m-95mm / 0gr, 80mm / 30gr) Confident defeat of the upper frontal sheet from a distance of up to 500m (heading angle 30gr), up to 1000m (heading angle 0gr), the tower is free to hit at a distance of over 1000m. For 1943, the T-34 tank is very vulnerable to anti-tank artillery.
                        7) Duel fight with other tanks. Of course, in a duel battle over a long distance, the T-34 will give way to the PZ-4, but how much is this percent of all other means of destruction?
                  2. +1
                    31 May 2019 17: 39
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    the desire to mold MBT from Panther - but it wasn’t like that, the Germans continued to sculpt medium and heavier cars.

                    Panther was a kind of MBT among the Germans. The Germans had a different Panzervaffe structure, their own, unlike the others.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    claim that the T-34 was more combustible than the four

                    Is there any doubt about this?
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    I can repeat again - the tanks detonated from shells of at least 75 mm.

                    Tanks, or rather the fuel vapor in them, detonate not from shells, but from fragments. Anyway, what calibers.
                2. +1
                  30 May 2019 20: 41
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  I haven’t found a landfill yet, but it’s impossible to believe that they didn’t check


                  RGAE Fund 8752 Inventory 7 Case 138 Sheet 4 - 9

                  TOP SECRET



                  Ing. V.V. LARCHENKO
                  Central Research Institute-48

                  DEFEATABILITY OF T-34 TANKS IN BATTLES UNDER STALINGRAD AND EAGLE.

                  Introduction

                  In July-August 1943, the Moscow branch of the Central Research Institute-48 conducted a survey of a large group of T-34 tanks, which failed and were delivered to Plant No. 180 from the area of ​​Stalingrad. A total of 304 tanks were inspected and, in addition, data from 105 tank corps (without towers) were received from the plant

                  2. The effectiveness of the various groups of German shells on the armor of the T-34.

                  Data on the effectiveness of the action of various groups of shells on the armor of the T-34 tank are presented in table. 3, from which it can be seen that on average every second hit inflicts a dangerous defeat on the tank’s armor protection.

                  Table 3. The effectiveness of the various shells on the T-34 tanks



                  For groups of projectiles of caliber less than 50 mm, the effectiveness (36,3% of dangerous lesions) turned out to be quite high, probably due to sub-caliber shells, which could not be distinguished.

                  The effectiveness of 50 mm shells is 60,7 percent. dangerous lesions. This figure is, apparently, somewhat overstated. This, in particular, is indicated by the cases of attributing to this caliber holes of the frontal part of the body (21 such cases were recorded), while it is known that this part is not pierced by German shells with 50 mm.

                  Data on the calibres of 75 mm (89 per cent. Of dangerous lesions) and 88 mm (97,8 per cent.) Show that the armor of the T-34 tank weakly protects against these shells. The very first hit by any of these shells in any part of the tank can disable it.
                  In the group of cumulative shells, the efficiency turned out to be very high (85,7% of dangerous lesions), but this value was determined by the small number of lesions.
          3. -3
            29 May 2019 12: 17
            [/ quote] No, there wasn’t the same visibility there, because the initially installed sight was unsuccessful, it was difficult to use. And then he was often neglected, not installed in the tank for the sake of economy - the armor shield on the tower was preserved, but the sight itself was not there. [quote]

            The visibility of the 40g tank was exactly the same, and that of 44g. (T-34-76).
            I have never seen a single photo of a tank without a telescopic sight (except if shot down by a projectile), - you have a proof about the mythical armor shield at the site of the telescopic sight.
            And again, the main advantage of the 4th "groove" is the released commander. Those. German full-fledged tank, against the Soviet ersatz tank.

            "From what I heard about this device from eyewitnesses, I still had, albeit insignificant, but I don’t have exact passport data for it."
            - there are no lenses, only prisms, so there is no increase.

            "This extra weight provided very good protection against 37-mm "mallets" and quite acceptable even against a 50-mm Pak 38, but the 30-mm sides of the "four" were quite confidently amazed by our "forty-five" from 250 m. That is, I, in general -that, he wrote a lot of "letters" on the topic that for a confident fight against the T-34, the Germans needed a 75-mm cannon, but for the T-IV, a 45-57-mm anti-tank gun was quite enough. This is a fundamental difference, for the reasons indicated in this article and the previous ones, since, unlike the 37-50 mm, the German 75s were more difficult, more expensive, and, in fact, were immobile on the battlefield - as a rule, they were moved and even deployed in battle. was impossible."
            - 43g, what kind of beaters do you still have? RAC 38 confidently pierced the sides of the T-34 from 400m (and at a right angle almost from a kilometer), against your 250m. This is a really fundamental difference, in addition, the screens contributed to the premature detonation of the BBS of the Soviet guns, + protection from cumulants.
            Those. "four" and here, a little, but wins.

            "[b Incorrect, the" blank "BR-350BSP pierced accurately.] [/ b]"
            - even according to the table, armor penetration is no more than 82mm KC armor with a high-quality "calculated" projectile. A "military" projectile, however, did not penetrate the 82mm German plate.

            "[bС is better than protected sides] [/ b]"
            - the side protection was equally transparent for the enemy's anti-tank weapons, with some advantage in the "four".

            "And who said he was the main one? Yura27? Oh well..."
            However, a total war was going on, however, I said that you don’t know the materiel.

            "T-34 received all the advantages of high power density."
            - he did not get anything, because the benefits remained with the German transmission, despite the relatively weak motor.

            "Because the power density truly depends on the transmission only if we cannot shift gears."
            - Another pearl, - cast in granite, I don’t even know how to comment on this technobad. Go on!
          4. +2
            29 May 2019 14: 48
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            This phrase is a technical absurdity.

            Not at all, just the opponent stressed that the engine power must be properly used!
            I’ll add that you still need to take into account losses in the engine’s air path and suspension ...
            If we summarize them, a significant share of B2 power was lost and the real specific power was lower than the calculated one ... and the fuel was consumed by a more powerful engine ... request
            1. -1
              29 May 2019 20: 40
              I’ll add that you still need to take into account losses in the engine’s air path and suspension ...


              I also add that there are a bunch of methods for determining engine power: gross, net, etc.
              bully
              Are you sure that they are the same with our Fritz? feel
              1. 0
                29 May 2019 21: 38
                Something everyone is trying to just "equate" the engine power to a good transmission. No doubt, this is correct. However, from the point of view of the mechanic driver, who can fight, maybe only 5 minutes, the ability to move from the second one and not switch until the end of the attack in the speed range from 0 to 20 km / h is clearly preferable to a weak engine with a bunch of easily shifting gears
                1. 0
                  29 May 2019 23: 59
                  from the point of view of the driver


                  I apologize, but in your car, wedge second gear feel

                  Many, many years ago, my wife (160 cm x 42 kg - there was no choice) learned how to drive in mechanics: since the car allowed me to pull off and spin it up to 9 thousand without tension. It looked like a bomb. fellow But in fact - not ice)
                  1. +1
                    30 May 2019 07: 43
                    I know this very well, but not ice - it’s if only your car
              2. -1
                30 May 2019 11: 55
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                Are you sure that they are the same with our Fritz?

                Do you think there were Aryan and Soviet mechanics? bully
                1. -1
                  30 May 2019 20: 05
                  Do you think there were Aryan and Soviet mechanics? bully


                  Speed ​​PzIII = 40 km per hour, speed T-34-76 = 55 km per hour - guess who was faster in comparative tests? There are Aryan km per hour and Soviet km per hour.

                  By the way, there are Aryan mechanics: measuring engine power according to DIN bully
                  1. -2
                    31 May 2019 11: 39
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    guess who was faster on comparative trials?

                    naturally T-3, there was no Soviet bullshit .. bully
                    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                    There is also Aryan mechanics:

                    Do they have 4 Newton laws or 2? laughing
                    1. -1
                      31 May 2019 12: 31
                      Engine power can be considered with a different set of equipment, for example: with a filter or without) with different fuel even - do not believe it Yes
                2. +1
                  1 June 2019 00: 19
                  There were different methods for determining engine power
            2. 0
              30 May 2019 18: 08
              Quote: ser56
              Not at all, just the opponent stressed that the engine power must be properly used!

              It is necessary. Can you justify how illiterate a T-34 transmission is using engine power? In horsepower? :)
              Quote: ser56
              If we sum up them, then a significant fraction of the power of the 2 was lost and the actual power density was lower than the calculated one.

              Do not question, make a comparison and prove the superiority of the German technology in this parameter
              1. -1
                30 May 2019 18: 32
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Can you justify how illiterate the T-34 transmission used engine power? In horsepower? :)

                I met on the Web, I write from memory - engine power losses due to the air supply system of about 70 hp, transmission losses of up to 15% .. so that up to a total of about 120 hp .. hi
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                No question, do a mapping

                Thanks for the work plan, provide funding? Or is copyright vanity infringed? bully
                1. +2
                  30 May 2019 19: 15
                  Quote: ser56
                  I met the network, I write from memory - the loss of engine power due to the air supply system is about 70 hp, the loss in the transmission is up to 15% .. so it’s up to a total of about 120 hp.

                  And German? :)))
                  Quote: ser56
                  Thanks for the work plan, provide funding?

                  Hmm, strange :))) Have you ever offered me a reward for my time to answer you? And what gives you the moral right to demand it from me?
                  In general, either confirm your words, or do not make statements
                  Quote: ser56
                  Or author vanity infringed? bully

                  I see this is a sore point for you. No, unfounded statements of my "vanity" do not prejudice. As well as informed, non-verbal criticism.
                  1. 0
                    31 May 2019 11: 32
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And German? :)))

                    1) I agree that everything is relative, but the level of German designers was higher and they didn’t make any tough mistakes, and at a training ground in the USA it was noted that the engine lacked air at idle speed ... request Indirectly, this confirms the high speed of the T-3 at a lower specific power ...
                    2) agree that the loss of 15% of power on air filters is an indicator of illiteracy ... request on the other hand, many designers were self-taught or technicians, even talented people do not interfere with education ... bully
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    that I spend my time answering you?

                    you yourself let slip that communication with visitors is a site requirement for authors .. bully
                    I note - I do not give you tasks - I criticize flaws ... criticism must be appreciated, although it is difficult hi when reviewers point out punctures to me, I always thank them - just for a careful reading ... request
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    In general, either confirm your words, or do not make statements

                    we don’t have a technical council bully
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    I see this is a sore point for you.

                    in vain translate the arrows ... a dialogue on this subject arose after your answer about technical delirium - see above - for a very reasonable remark ... so to yourself .. hi
          5. +1
            31 May 2019 17: 33
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            This extra weight provided very good protection against 37mm "beaters" and quite acceptable even from the 50mm Pak 38

            Can you tell me where the T-34s of 1942 and earlier went to? Thousands of them were released. How did the Germans cope with them if the T-34 had "very good protection" from their standard anti-tank equipment?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            that for a confident fight with the T-34 the Germans needed a 75 mm gun

            For a safe fight. The Germans greatly appreciated the life of the Germans.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And who said he was the main one? Yura27? Oh well...

            You will be surprised, but the post-war manual of 76 mm ammunition said so.
            But I understand that you did not read it.
            1. 0
              1 June 2019 10: 54
              Where did the old tanks go? There, where are the old cars. To landfill and smelting after working out the resource.
      4. +1
        28 May 2019 21: 09
        Yura, you cling to Andrey as usual
        Obviously not indifferent to him
        1. 0
          29 May 2019 11: 37
          Quote: Astra wild
          Yura, you cling to Andrey as usual
          Obviously not indifferent to him

          If you, a girl, write a post with many blunders on a topic that interests me, then I will become partial to you. love
        2. 0
          30 May 2019 00: 10
          I think Jura 27 is very much right (sorry, he doesn’t write an article), on the contrary, zombies are enraged who, without any knowledge of the subject, roam from the erroneous part of the conclusions of the Great Namesake, such as ZPR = genius, simply because they have a schiz on some things
          Threat. I don’t argue that sometimes the Great namesake considers very interesting topics very interestingly, for which he is very interesting to me
          Zy.Zy. Jura 27 is sometimes, in my opinion, expressed in a very strange language for many, for which it is underestimated. read it carefully - like it when you understand
          Zy Zy Zy It's strange you write for a girl. Many, many years ago, when my wife read Charles de Gaulle's "Professional Army" at my request (in the original), she asked me for a calculation to provide gas stations (women are down-to-earth laughing ) And you, lord, like a man - a romantic expressing your thoughts)
          1. +2
            3 June 2019 20: 54
            Andrey Shmelev, thank you I was not called a man yet and I don’t know how to react: was outraged or rejoiced?
            You should know that women are unpredictable. In general, individual education means a lot.
            1. 0
              3 June 2019 21: 44
              thank you still did not call me a man


              I was kidding )
              1. +2
                3 June 2019 22: 32
                I agree to the joke. Let's collaborate. I am curious and appreciate knowledgeable people
      5. +1
        28 May 2019 22: 15
        In 1943 17752 medium tanks (of which 17129 T-34-76) were shipped to the front (not to be confused with production!); losses amounted to 14700 medium tanks, which amounted to almost 83% of the shipped. Then it got worse and worse, the situation was extended in 1942, when the percentage of losses to the shipped was 56%.
        Yurochka, you apparently live in a space-timeless dimension, do you travel in time or did you learn to move objects?
        In 1943.- (attention to the date) 17752 medium tanks (of which 17129 T-34-76) were shipped (not to be confused with production!) To the front; losses amounted to 14700 medium tanks, which amounted to almost 83% of the shipped. Then it got worse and worse, the situation was extended in 1942 (attention to the date), when the percentage of losses to the shipped was 56%. When you write, in what year do you live)))))
        1. -1
          29 May 2019 11: 26
          [/ quote] Yurochka, you apparently live in a space-timeless dimension, do you travel in time or did you learn to move objects? [quote]

          You just cannot realize what is written in one paragraph of five lines. strain - maybe you can. If not, write, I will decipher in two lines (instead of five).
      6. Oct
        0
        29 May 2019 02: 08
        What is meant by ersatz explosive?
        1. +3
          29 May 2019 07: 44
          Poorly mixed amatol, unpredictable in the quality of tol.
          1. Oct
            0
            29 May 2019 09: 58
            This raises a technological question - how TNT and ammonium nitrate are mixed, which should also be anhydrous. And who did not use such ersatz as picrates and saltpeter at that time? Although no fools were found in the USSR to use picrates
      7. 0
        31 May 2019 17: 23
        Quote: Jura 27
        T.O. T-34-76 and in 1943 lost in all respects to the German four (with the exception of the power reserve).

        T-34/76 is generally not a classmate of Pz.IV. A classmate of Pz.IV, and even that failed, this is the T-34/85.
        And the T-34/76 conceptually and in terms of performance is to some extent a classmate of the Pz.III. Weaker than him, of course, and worse (T-34/76 is weaker and worse than Pz.III). But "what are they rich in?"
        It can be figuratively said that the T-34/76 is about the same failed Pz.III as the T-34/85 in relation to Pz.IV. Tanks of the Pz.V and Pz.VI level were not produced in the USSR. The technical and technological level of development did not allow.
        Quote: Jura 27
        Those. "Four" for the longest time, was the best medium tank of the WWII.

        By the time the "medium tanks" appeared (1943), the Pz.IV had already turned into a standard tank of the second line of the German tank division. Those. into a "light German tank" (into a sniper).
        At the same time, in terms of performance characteristics, these "light German tanks" approximately corresponded to medium tanks of the Allies.
        1. -1
          12 June 2019 16: 42
          An amazing thing. It turns out that German tanks were better throughout the war. Not to take seriously the miserable excuses of Guderian with his passages about the T-34. You can’t even talk about airplanes. Artillery was better. The German infantry is beyond praise. The Germans had small arms. It was impossible for our fleet to compete with the Kriegsmarine. The commanders of the Germans were not an example better. The loss of the Germans to ours is one in ten. Didn’t forget anything?
          How is it that, despite the total superiority in all aspects, the Germans were defeated? Not otherwise they were littered with corpses. Yes, another Lend-Lease helped. Where without him. The answer suggests itself: neither tanks nor aircraft are needed. Corpses are needed to fill up.
      8. The comment was deleted.
    9. +2
      28 May 2019 10: 40
      Quote: ser56
      2) as for the reservation, it was in vain brought up to 45mm everywhere - it would be better to spend this weight on strengthening the frontal projection at least up to 60mm


      The front roller and its suspension were already overloaded - without drastically redesigning the undercarriage, do not add excess weight to the frontal projection, while redistributing the weight on the sides does not load a separate pair of rollers, but presents a uniform load distribution diagram - it is quite acceptable.
      Those. do not add mass to the frontal part without a sharp decrease in the resource of the front pair of track rollers.
      1. +1
        28 May 2019 12: 37
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        The front roller and its suspension were already overloaded

        1) already said above - tanks shielded
        2) Well, they would increase the diameter of the first spring - then ...
        3) self-propelled guns -85/100 had noticeably large weights ahead and nothing ... the question of desire to solve the problem ...
        1. +1
          30 May 2019 11: 50
          Quote: ser56
          2) Well, they would increase the diameter of the first spring - then ...


          Delov then?
          Here you have amateurs "everything is simple", but where do you put a larger diameter spring in a candle suspension?
          The armored housing must be redesigned and one spring does not solve the overload problem in any way - the roller bearings do not hold the load.
          There already the resource of the front pair of rollers was already lower, due to the fact that the front pair collects shock loads more than the subsequent ones, it was already overloaded.
          In general, this issue is solved either by adding a track roller (which pulls the lengthening of the hull) or by redesigning the weight loads at the nodes - shifting to the stern, which in both cases is no less in terms of design work, almost like creating a new tank.
          1. 0
            30 June 2019 18: 38
            The base is a bit short initially and the rollers are shifted to the stern under the load of the engine and the main effort is on the front. The sixth rink decided everything on other models
      2. 0
        30 May 2019 10: 31
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        The front roller and its suspension were already overloaded - without drastic redesign of the chassis, do not add extra weight to the frontal projection

        It’s possible to agree that the ingenious layout of the T-34, sung by GlavPUR and Rezun, is not so ingenious until they made a short MTO. The Americans, by the way, also made rear-wheel drive on Hellcat, but then they rearranged the transmission forward, I did not like the weight distribution.
        1. 0
          30 May 2019 11: 58
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          not so brilliant

          there are also more "terrible" guesses that the inclination of the side plates is not so important or that the diesel is not important ... bully
          1. +1
            31 May 2019 17: 52
            Quote: ser56
            there are also more "terrible" guesses that the slope of the side sheets is not so important

            This is not speculation, these are the results of the shelling of the pre-production T-34.
            Quote: ser56
            or that a diesel engine isn’t important ...

            Fundamental. There was no gas in the country, so the diesel engine was fundamental.
        2. 0
          31 May 2019 11: 19
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          It’s possible to agree that the ingenious layout of the T-34, sung by GlavPUR and Rezun, is not so ingenious until they made a short MTO.


          Great banter :)
          Tanks with the deployment of MTO rear to t-34 was not?
          Or with a rear drive wheel?
          And as for the candle pendant - the solution from Christie was worse in terms of layout and weightier than the torsion bar and more expensive to manufacture.
          Even in the aircraft industry, yesterday’s graduates of technical universities carried out the weight arrangements, especially in tank building it was never considered a particularly difficult task - usually there are a dozen of them, from which they choose an acceptable one.
          Here is the layout to make everything fit compactly and functionally - this was decided by the general meeting of design groups (transmissions, corps, minders, gunsmiths ...)

          As for the t-34-85
          After installing a long-barrel 85mm, the balance went much more forward - to the unfortunate front pair of track rollers, they became almost a consumable.
          there are sources:
          At the same time, the design of the case and the layout of the units and assemblies in it did not undergo any significant changes. Consequently, all the disadvantages inherent in machines with aft engine and transmission were preserved, and partly even exacerbated. If the T-34 distribution of the weight load on the track rollers was more or less uniform, then the T-34-85 because of the large and heavy towers displaced to the nose, the front rollers were overloaded. Too large a gun’s outreach beyond the dimensions of the tank led to the danger of sticking it into the ground when the tank moved through natural and artificial obstacles, and also limited the freedom of maneuvering in narrow aisles.

          https://arsenal-info.ru/b/book/3397331535/3
          In general, these basics of T-34 shortcomings are known and taught at the faculty of automotive, it is strange that this is still becoming a revelation for someone.

          Here is to deploy the engine across the t-44, t-54 is really an extraordinary solution.
          1. +1
            31 May 2019 11: 57
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            back to t-34 nebylo

            If ft17 is not to be remembered, then for the British of the 40s, the rear sprocket was actually the standard.
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            the characteristics are heavier than the torsion and in production more expensive.

            God bless them with torsions. Christie was the only option for a wheeled tracked vehicle. For a purely caterpillar, it was worse than carts and torsion bars. But even worse - in the USSR they did not put shock absorbers in contrast to the British.
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            the balance is much more advanced

            Yeah
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            it’s strange that this is still becoming a revelation for someone.

            Well then. So much effort has been put on the best tank of the war, a masterpiece of the ingenious Koshkin, which is 20 years ahead of time. And then it suddenly turns out that the T-34 is a tank Cheburashka. This cannot be allowed.
    10. +4
      28 May 2019 15: 34
      Quote: ser56
      The question arises - why the banal improvements of the T-34 appeared only to 43g? request After all, the flaws were on the surface, that with the box, that with the clutches, that with the review ... Well, these changes could not greatly affect the production of the tank ...

      The problem with the box was that it was necessary to create such a structure that could be made using the equipment available at the factory (evil tongues slander that this equipment was purchased even for BT-2). In short, a task by type: Make a Mercedes, designed for production on the AZLK line. smile
      Friction clutches ... what quick improvements can we talk about if the design bureau could not even construct it normally?
      When receiving the first T-34 machines at STZ, a defect was discovered: failure to turn off and burning the main clutch discs.
      The audit found that the friction clutch parts were manufactured and installed on the machine in accordance with the drawings and technical specifications of Plant No. 183.
      When analyzing the causes of the defect, I found that they are of a purely constructive nature and consist in a small value of the diametrical clearance between the gearbox [gear changes], the ring off and the ball ...
      When choosing the specified gap, slipping and burning of the main clutch discs occurs.
      The clearance that occurs in the assembled machine on the conveyor belt decreases the first time the clutch is turned on under load, with the engine running, and after several starts it completely disappears ...
      I made a decision (and I recommend that you ask the factory) to pass the cars that passed the acceptance tests, open and set a gap of 1 mm ... so that the cars that arrived at the unit can pass at least 200-250 km ...
      The main clutch in its current design is not suitable for work, it is necessary to force efforts to improve it in every way ...
      Senior Military Representative GABTU KA Military Engineer 2 Rank Levin

      Overview ... here again the level of the design school comes out. It seems that the monitoring devices were placed either without seeing other mechanisms, or simply borrowing their position from the A-20.
      Result:
      With simultaneous operation of the rotary mechanism and observation in the PT-6 device, the flywheel and the control handle rest against the chest, making it difficult for the turret to rotate quickly.
      Turning the tower in any direction is possible only if the head deviates from the forehead of the PT-6 device, i.e. the rotation of the tower is actually blind.
      The window of the scale of angles of aiming of the telescopic sight is blocked by the lever of the angles of the terrain of the PT-6 device ... Installation of sighting data is possible at elevation angles of 4 - 5,5 degrees and 9 - 12 degrees, which actually makes it impossible to fire with the TOD-6 sight.
      Periscope sight PT-6.
      At an elevation angle of 7 degrees and below, to the maximum angle of descent, access to the handle of the all-round visibility mechanism is possible with only three fingers due to the fact that the sector of the gun’s lifting mechanism does not allow the grip of the handle by the hand.
      The viewing device of the "circular review".
      Access to the device is extremely difficult and observation is possible in a limited sector to the right up to 120 degrees ... A limited field of view, the complete impossibility of observation in the rest of the sector and ... the inconvenient position of the head during observation makes the viewing device unusable.
      Driver's sighting devices ...
      In practical work on driving a tank with a closed hatch, significant shortcomings of viewing devices were revealed. When driving on a contaminated dirt road and virgin soil for 5-10 minutes, viewing devices clog up with dirt until complete loss of visibility.
      © Ulanov / Shein
      And the fifth point is that the change in the position of observation devices and sights is hemorrhoids with a rework of the tower / hull and equipment for its production.
      1. 0
        28 May 2019 17: 18
        Quote: Alexey RA
        here again the level of the design school comes out.

        somehow there were no such problems on the BT or T-28 ... why so? Maybe it was not necessary to repress the engineers? request
        1. +4
          28 May 2019 17: 38
          Quote: ser56
          somehow there were no such problems on the BT or T-28 ... why so?

          Patamushta T-28 is a LKZ. A completely different level. Although with HF they gave a blunder ... a 47-ton tank with a transmission and suspension for 40 tons.
          And about BT I immediately remember: the tank was ambushed and burned by an anti-tank gun imperceptibly pulled up by the enemy. Sucks on BT was with a review.
          1. 0
            28 May 2019 17: 43
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Patamushta T-28 is a LKZ. A completely different level.

            In Kharkov, 10 BT tanks were fired, steam locomotives from 000 and ICE from 1896 were made - which is not at all easy ...
            Quote: Alexey RA
            It was burned imperceptibly pulled up by the enemy anti-tank gun.

            So did the review interfere?
            1. +1
              28 May 2019 18: 01
              Quote: ser56
              10 BT tanks were launched in Kharkov,

              Yeah ... and then on the basis of developments on them created A-20 - A-32 - A-34.
              All the shortcomings that the military found in the T-34 - they did not appear out of the blue. It’s just that before the army took everything that they gave - including BT with a simplified three-stage and BT, for the launch of the engines which required the presence of a fire brigade.
              Quote: ser56
              So did the review interfere?

              The crew inside the tank does not see the calculation rolling PTP. No, the review is clearly not to blame. smile
              1. 0
                29 May 2019 14: 51
                Quote: Alexey RA
                does not see the calculation rolling PTP

                depends on the terrain, crew qualifications and much more ... request
                Quote: Alexey RA
                It’s just that before the army took everything they give

                what for? Well, during the war - you can understand, but in peacetime?
            2. 0
              30 June 2019 18: 48
              And there they made a t-64 with a counterpart. In the 80th year, they were lying around in the park ... From the first episodes
      2. +1
        28 May 2019 19: 37
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Friction clutches ... what quick improvements can we talk about if the design bureau could not even construct it normally?

        there is an opinion that it was not because the guys were stupid, but because there was not enough friction material "ferodo" and the friction clutch had to be made steel-on-steel, with all the consequences
        1. +1
          29 May 2019 11: 04
          Quote: prodi
          there is an opinion that it was not because the guys were stupid, but because there was not enough friction material "ferodo" and the friction clutch had to be made steel-on-steel, with all the consequences

          Perhaps the matter is in the material. But then the question arises - why the solution proposed by the military representative:
          I made a decision (and I recommend that you ask the factory) to pass the cars that passed the acceptance tests, open and set a gap of 1 mm ... so that the cars that arrived at the unit can pass at least 200-250 km ...
          have not been implemented yet at the design stage? If the materials have changed, then maybe it was worth finalizing the design before the start of mass production?
    11. Oct
      0
      29 May 2019 01: 53
      There were projects to strengthen the forehead of the hull by weakening the remaining armor parts, but they were abandoned - the bottom was too thin and the roof of the hull came out, plus the front rollers were overloaded. By the way, the author forgot to mention the stamped T-34 tower.
    12. The comment was deleted.
    13. 0
      30 June 2019 17: 16
      The weakest side is the side.
  2. +5
    27 May 2019 18: 52
    Thank you very much, interesting informative article.
  3. +1
    27 May 2019 18: 56
    Good article. Thank.
  4. +13
    27 May 2019 19: 20
    But T-IVH, which had comparable armor to T-34 only in a frontal projection, could never have caused such a reaction - its 30 mm beads were surely struck not by the fact that 57-mm ZiS-2, but also by good old “forty pimples” .
    ,, maybe someone is interested hi piece of history.

    Results of firing at T-IV and Panther tanks 06.06.1944









    1. +1
      28 May 2019 12: 42
      sorry that the scans are bad love
  5. +3
    27 May 2019 20: 07
    Thanks for the detailed and detailed analysis of the raised topic. It was very interesting to read.
  6. +11
    27 May 2019 20: 45
    For the first time I read a reasoned opinion that our tank was not blind compared to the German one.
    Very interesting technical details on the observation devices.
    I agree with the author on the final conclusion: losing to the Germans in the tank state, they won in combined arms combat, which, with competent tactical decisions, led to strategic success.
    1. 0
      31 May 2019 17: 58
      Quote: glory1974
      losing to the Germans in a tank state, they won in combined arms combat, which, with competent tactical decisions, led to strategic success.

      Have you tried to count losses to achieve "strategic success"?
      1. 0
        31 May 2019 20: 18
        Losses are counted long ago. Why are you doing this?
        And to be strong everywhere and always impossible. Have you read the article? Everywhere there are advantages and disadvantages that we have, that the Germans have.
        1. -2
          31 May 2019 20: 32
          Quote: glory1974
          Losses are counted long ago.

          So what? The ratio is not impressive? And the absolute numbers?
          Quote: glory1974
          What are you talking about?

          Moreover, for the jambs of Soviet technology and weapons had to pay lives.
          Quote: glory1974
          Everywhere there are advantages and disadvantages that we have, that the Germans have.

          I would like to know "about our merits." Not about those that the incompetent author came up with at the end, but about the real ones.
          For example, I don’t know such people. Maybe you tell me?
          In general, the argument that something iron Soviet could be better (or at least at the level) of iron German (American, British), they are similar to laughter. Those who say so do not seem to understand what the USSR was in the early 40s.
          1. 0
            3 June 2019 11: 01
            So what? The ratio is not impressive? And the absolute numbers?

            1 to 1,2-1,3 ratio.
            Moreover, for the jambs of Soviet technology and weapons had to pay lives

            Just like the Germans paid with their lives for their shoals.
            I would like to know "about our merits." Not about those that the incompetent author came up with at the end, but about the real ones.
            For example, I don’t know such people. Maybe you tell me?

            If you criticize, then do it competently. If you do not agree with what is written in the article, justifiably refute it.
            It seems that you are captured by liberal myths that everything is bad. And you don’t know the truth.
          2. 0
            30 June 2019 18: 58
            Have any of you at least once sat behind a mechwater driver on a T-34? Once he rolled, he dragged the bags in his hands. And grandfathers won the war. It’s hard, but it still works in Indochina here and there.
        2. +2
          31 May 2019 23: 58
          Yes, you are just flesh and blood a child of the Market Economy, of course, it is necessary to count losses, and not only the loss of people, yes, it would be nice to have better equipment than you had in that war, but then the question was "to be or not to be", and not how to win "beautifully", with less losses, and did it ever occur to you that while we would have developed and created such a technique (and this is still a question, we could, with the general level of education and technical training of personnel and the quality level of industry ), the Germans would have long been beyond the Volga, or even beyond the Urals. And as for the losses, well, no one will argue that in 41 the T-34 and KV outnumbered, for all their shortcomings, the bulk of German tanks, especially the T-2, T38, but the losses on our side were huge, the main reason was not in the performance characteristics technology, and in a strategic miscalculation, battle tactics, poor communications, management, logistic support, lack of interaction between the branches of the armed forces, the dominance of enemy aviation, poor training of crews and commanders of units and subunits, these are the main reasons for high losses in 41-42, and not very dubious superiority of the TTX T-4 over the T-34, and even in 43, not everything was smooth in these aspects, which was further aggravated by the appearance of new armored vehicles by the Germans, to which we were clearly late for the Battle of Kursk to give an adequate answer. In addition, you also forget such characteristics of equipment as manufacturability of production, cost of production (T-34 - about 200 thousand rubles, T-4 over 103 thousand rubles / marks), ease of repair and maintenance, ease of mastering equipment by personnel, for these indicators, the T-34 in relation to those conditions (no need to soar in the clouds) was better. The best weapon that brings victory under these specific conditions, perhaps, figuratively speaking, we produced consumer goods, and the Germans produced piece goods, but it was quantity in that total war that turned out to be more important than quality, and therefore your beloved T-4 is gathering dust in the museum , and our T-34 as a symbol of victory stands on the squares of our, and not only, our cities
          1. 0
            1 June 2019 10: 53
            You leave these agitations of the level of instructor of the district committee of the party of the times of the USSR to grandmothers at the entrance.
  7. +18
    27 May 2019 21: 13
    An excellent 75 mm KwK.40 L / 48 was installed on the T-IVH, which is an analog of the towed Pak-40

    I’ll correct it a little, it’s not quite an analog, for the shot for the 75 mm KwK.40 L / 48 had a sleeve of 495 mm, and for the Pak-40 - 716 mm. And although the characteristics were very close, the shots were not interchangeable. At the same time, F-34 and ZiS-3 shots were used alone with a 385,3 mm sleeve. A trifle, but maybe someone is interested.
    1. +3
      28 May 2019 00: 51
      Quote: Den717
      Trifle, but maybe someone is interested.

      Thank you personally to me - interesting :) hi drinks Always very happy about such details
      Quote: Den717
      I will correct a little, not quite analog

      Nuuu, analog is not a copy :)
      1. +4
        28 May 2019 05: 55
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Nuuu, analog is not a copy :)

        I as a stroke to the differences of tools. The principle itself seems interesting to me. After all, we abandoned the enlarged chamber in the F-22 precisely because of the unification of the shots. The Germans did not consider this factor fundamental.
        1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +4
      28 May 2019 01: 26
      This is not a trifle but a huge plus. The interchangeability of the shots makes logistics so easy and the shots themselves cheaper that the economic effect on the scale of the World War is comparable to the creation of a new tank corps, or even not one.
    3. +3
      28 May 2019 04: 11
      Trifle, but maybe someone is interested.

      Not such a trifle. That is, the Germans needed for the Pz-4 and a separate shell production. At the same time, ours could use shells from broken artillery batteries or wrecked tanks.
      By the way, the author did not consider the performance characteristics of the used radio stations in tanks, which in my opinion is also important.
    4. +1
      31 May 2019 18: 11
      Quote: Den717
      sleeve 495 mm

      445,1 mm. The flange diameter is 111,5 mm.
      The gun based on the PaK40 simply did not fit into the Pz.IV. tower. Therefore, they made the original, although the shells (the warhead of the cartridges) were the same. The reverse unification of the sleeves did not begin.
      This very eloquently suggests that in 1941 no one even thought of putting a long-barreled gun in Pz.IV. Everyone was quite happy with the short-barreled 7.5 cm KwK. The one to which in RuNet for some reason it is customary to treat scornfully.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. 0
          1 June 2019 11: 23
          Quote: Den717
          Can I link?

          I, dear, use reference books. Professional literature.
          Try to search on the index of the sleeve 6339 St.
          The sleeve is steel, seamless, brass.
    5. 0
      30 June 2019 19: 08
      Effective managers will calculate the money. The technologies are the same for 34 and Grabinsky Ballerina Zis-3 for shells. And there and there MASS production. The flow is always cheaper than piece. And these are resources, gentlemen!
  8. 0
    27 May 2019 21: 42
    Andrei, you, as I understand it, are deep in the topic. Why do you think, in 1943, after the shelling of Pz-VI, our generals from the State Academic Technical University and production did not dare to return the length of the original pipe to the F-34, like the F-22? After all, the Germans showed how much this technique can be effective. After all, even before the war, they knew that the brb projectile that exceeded 700 m / s in speed was acquiring new penetrating qualities. The measure is palliative, but at least something. Before the summer campaign, they could have ripened at least some tanks.
    1. +9
      27 May 2019 23: 18
      700m / s is a purely theoretical value for strictly defined shells. Even an increase in the initial speed to 813 m / s. (3K anti-aircraft gun, with a 56kb barrel and 2 times more powerful powder charge) almost did not increase armor penetration compared to the F-34 (662m / s), the Br-350a shell was frankly bad and just cracked when shooting at 80 mm armor plate. The Br-350b projectile was more successful, but the difference in penetration when shooting from a 40kb barrel (655m / s) and a 50kb barrel (690m / s) was 5mm, it’s not worth it. It’s much more important to switch to a long sleeve with a powerful powder charge, and to raise the initial speed up to 40 m / s with a barrel of 50-800 kb, as the Germans and Americans did, but these are completely different guns, with high pressures in the barrel bore, powerful recoil devices and a completely different price)
      1. +3
        28 May 2019 06: 07
        Quote: vetal1942
        700m / s is a purely theoretical value, for strictly defined shells

        Well, why? The French wrote about this and proved back in the late 30s. For our part, on this principle, we upgraded the 45-mm anti-tank gun of the 1937 model to the M-42 with just an increased long barrel and a compacted charge. Received other qualities. And even an increase in armor penetration by 5 mm (with an old projectile, and after all, it would be possible to process the projectile as 45 mm, including the celmetic core) near Kursk, could bring Rotmistrov and Katukov other results (these are certainly theoretical assumptions wink )
        1. +5
          28 May 2019 07: 00
          Quote: Den717
          Received other qualities. And even an increase in armor penetration by 5 mm (with an old projectile, and after all, it would be possible to process the projectile as 45 mm, including the celmetic core) near Kursk, could bring Rotmistrov and Katukov other results (these are certainly theoretical assumptions

          Sorry, theory is good and you are right here, but practice is different. It all came down to tungsten shortage and core quality. You also need to know how to sinter hard alloys. From the book by BF Danilov "Life search". “In Moscow, only one sintering lasts for three weeks,” I explained .... Two days later, I made sure that the chief engineer was not bragging. In Moscow, I usually received after sintering 30% of calibers with cracks, that is, a marriage. Therefore, even now, counting on marriage, I cut more rings than necessary, but the sintering was done perfectly: not a single piece of marriage! " This is the mid-60s of the XNUMXth century. "
          1. +3
            28 May 2019 07: 07
            Quote: Amurets
            theory is good

            M-42 worked better than 45 armor model 1937. This is a practice that was not used in the F-34.
        2. +3
          28 May 2019 16: 33
          Quote: Den717
          And even an increase in armor penetration by 5 mm (with an old projectile, and after all, it would be possible to process the projectile as 45 mm, including the ceramic core) near Kursk could bring Rotmistrov and Katukov other results

          An old shell - no chance.
          The mechanical properties of the armor-piercing standard projectile are low - the shell crumbles upon impact.
          © "NIBT proving ground report on testing the armor protection of the German T-6 tank by shelling"
          And this is when firing from the F-34. With increasing speed, the BBS will crumble even better.
          The design of the BR-350A was initially sharpened not for armor penetration, but for the possibility of manufacturing in domestic factories - otherwise we risked even being left without at least some specialized 76-mm BBS. The flip side of the coin was a high reject rate and low strength of the shell of the projectile (especially at the point of transition to the mushroom head).
        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. 0
          28 May 2019 23: 12
          To be honest, I have seen this theory about the cherished figure of 700m / s more than once, and mainly in Svirin’s books. But it clearly has nothing to do with 45 mm guns, I’ll try to explain logically) When firing a PT gun the 1937 model (V0 = 760 m / s), the BR-240 projectile (blunt-headed with undercuts) at a distance of 100 m will have a speed of 730 m / s (by the way above 700m / s!) but it does not penetrate the German 50mm armor plate (according to the GAU report 42goda). When firing an M-42 gun from a PT (V0 = 870m / s), the BR-240 projectile at a distance of 600m will have a speed of 730m / s (the same speed!) But at the same time it will pierce 60mm armor plate (according to the armor penetration tables 44g). There is either an overestimation of armor penetration, or in the tables the results of firing with a completely different shell)
    2. +2
      28 May 2019 10: 49
      Quote: Den717
      F-34 is the length of the original pipe, like F-22?

      The F-22 is a completely different weapon, which had a reserve in the breech box for a bore for a larger case (for an increased charge, since the creators of the F-22 were limited to an archaic cartridge of 3 inches), and without increasing the charge, with increasing barrel length - you only get drop in speed.
      Everything was calculated by the designers, so that at a certain pressure in the barrel, its strength would be sufficient and long, it would provide optimal acceleration of the projectile, the steepness of the rifling - a certain rotation speed.

      For example, in a Thompson submachine gun, cutting off 10 cm of the barrel, they achieve an increase in the initial velocity of the bullet, but lose accuracy (the bullet is not twisted in the cuts) - to the way the thompson was designed ...
      1. +3
        28 May 2019 11: 19
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        The F-22 is a completely different weapon, which had a reserve in the breech box for boring for a larger cartridge case (for an increased charge, since the creators of the F-22 were limited to an archaic cartridge of 3 inches),

        According to Grabin's recollections, the F-22 was designed as a semi-universal weapon chambered for a 3K anti-aircraft gun and with a muzzle brake, then the task was changed to a purely divisional gun. But what changes were made by the Germans. "Research by Rheinmetall specialists showed that the design of the breech of the gun and the barrel makes it possible to more than double the powder charge in it, although it will be necessary to supplement the gun with a muzzle brake. Specially for the reinforced gun, a shot with a 716-mm sleeve was developed (that the same one that went to the 75-mm cannon Cancer 40) against the old ones, which had a length of only 385-mm. In the gun, the charging chamber was bored to the size of a new sleeve and a two-chamber muzzle brake was installed "https://topwar.ru/26559- iz-zhizni-gadyuki.html
      2. 0
        28 May 2019 11: 29
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        F-22 is a completely different weapon

        In his memoirs, Grabin wrote about the history of the development of the F-34 that one of the representatives of the military (either a military representative, or an officer of the GABTU) advised him to tame the barrel of the gun by 1 meter in order to fulfill the whim of the "customer" who was afraid that during the movement over rough terrain, the tank can scoop the ground with its barrel. Grabin reduced the gun by 10 calibers to the TZ level for the F-34. The question about the breech with a margin was not mentioned. Obviously, it was possible to screw the breech onto the pipe both from the F-22, and from the USV or F-34. That is, it is quite obvious that it was possible to return to the original dimensions.
        1. +3
          28 May 2019 11: 40
          Quote: Den717
          Obviously, the breech could be screwed onto the pipe both from F-22, and from SPM or F-34. Ie it is quite obvious that it was possible to return to the original sizes.


          First you look at the dimensions of the breech F-34 and F-22 - think - will it go into the tower, will there be enough recoil devices?
          In addition, it is necessary to take into account the possibilities of production re-equipped on the F-34 ZIS-3, which means that most of the F-22 archaic equipment went into scrap metal or was redone.
          No one will revive the production of the obsolete breech F-22, by then the design bureaus were working on new guns, including tank ones for the manufactured ammunition nomenclature.
      3. 0
        28 May 2019 18: 37
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Everything was calculated by the designers, so that at a certain pressure in the barrel, its strength would be sufficient and long, it would provide optimal acceleration of the projectile, the steepness of the rifling - a certain rotation speed.

        For Grabin, read how this length for F34 was calculated. Despite the fact that the F-22 fully used that projectile as the division gun. It was an adopted weapon under a shell with a 385 mm sleeve.
        1. -2
          31 May 2019 14: 01
          Quote: Den717
          Read at Grabin

          Well, who I would not recommend reading at all, it’s Grabina.
          Quote: Den717
          how this length at F34 was calculated

          Very simple - it was equal to the length of the field gun arr. 1902/30 and SPM. And the trunk is 40 clb long. was marginal for large-scale production on pre-war Soviet equipment.
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          The F-22 is a completely different weapon, which had a reserve in the breech box for boring for a larger cartridge case (for an increased charge, since the creators of the F-22 were limited to an archaic cartridge of 3 inches)

          F-22 was simply poorly designed. They did not know how to consider sopromat in the USSR then. Then the same jambs had 3-K, 51-K, 52-K, F-22, USV. All of them were bored by the Germans under more powerful ammunition.
          F-22 was NEVER designed for a more powerful charge. And the story of its appearance is not at all the same as Grabin writes about it.
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Everything was calculated by the designers, so that at a certain pressure in the barrel, its strength would be sufficient and long, it would provide optimal acceleration of the projectile, the steepness of the rifling - a certain rotation speed.

          That's just all of this in the USSR before the war and did not know how to fully count. From this, a jamb on a jamb.
          Quote: Amurets
          According to the memoirs of Grabin, the F-22 was designed as a semi-universal gun chambered by a 3K anti-aircraft gun and with a muzzle brake, then the task was changed to a purely divisional gun.

          If the task was changed, then the strength of the construction should have been changed. But this has not been done.
          In addition, the F-22 was NEVER designed for anti-aircraft cartridges.
          Quote: Amurets
          A shot with a 716 mm long sleeve (the same one that went to the 75 mm RaK 40 cannon) was specially developed for the reinforced gun against the old ones, which had a length of only 385 mm. In a cannon, a charging chamber was squandered to the size of a new cartridge case

          Yes, it was designed so "brilliantly".
          Tagunov was shot for such "genius" before the war. Grabin's "geniuses" were revealed later, when they were no longer shot. He was just lucky.
          Quote: Den717
          The issue of the breech was not mentioned with a margin.

          But it is indirectly mentioned in the report of the Aberdeen Proving Ground. There, Americans are surprised why the F-34 does not shoot more powerful (and much more powerful) rounds.
          Apparently they calculated the strength of the product, and they were surprised at this.
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          which means that most of the F-22 archaic rigs went into scrap metal or were redone.

          All this has not gone anywhere. Just a barrel length of 40 klb. was marginal for large-scale production on pre-war Soviet equipment.
          1. +1
            31 May 2019 14: 58
            Quote: Urfin22
            Well, who I would not recommend reading at all, it’s Grabina.

            The fact that memoirs, as a source, have specific features, has long been known. But to state what you are, we need weighty arguments. Can you present? Many things were done semi-intuitively, they write about it today, hanging around with computers, like Christmas tree decorations. But to state what Grabin F-22 did with a margin by mistake in the calculations, powerful. It would be desirable to reinforce an authoritative opinion. If I may. It would be interesting to read.
            1. 0
              31 May 2019 17: 02
              Quote: Den717
              Many things were done semi-intuitively, they write about it today, hanging around with computers, like Christmas tree decorations.

              To calculate the compromising just enough education. It was enough for Germans and Americans (in cases with the Soviet three-inch). Soviet designers, no.
              Quote: Den717
              But to state what Grabin F-22 did with a margin by mistake in the calculations, powerful. It would be desirable to reinforce an authoritative opinion.

              What "authoritative opinion" is needed to notice the American recommendations from the Aberdeen Proving Ground for the F-34?
              What "authoritative opinion" is needed to notice PaK39 (r)? Was it, with its 40 klb barrel long, also made "with the expectation of firing anti-aircraft cartridges"?
              What "authoritative opinion" is needed to notice 52-K? Immediately you could not make a normal caliber? It is impossible, it turns out, we could not calculate.
              What "authoritative opinion" is needed to notice 3-K and 51-K? They were released in the USSR for 8 years. They released thousands. It was only after the capture of the German 88 mm Flak in Spain that they realized that something was wrong with these guns. Moreover, they did not calculate, but rather compared - the outer diameter of the barrel and the dimensions of the breech are the same, but the caliber and power of the guns are completely different.
            2. 0
              30 June 2019 19: 30
              Grabin had another 57 mm Zis-2 on her carriage and put the Zis-3 ballerina 76 mm division. The long barrel and expensive in production. Returned to production after the appearance of the T-5 panther and T-6 Tiger. The problem of a separate ammunition, the problem of production of trunks. In the early 40s was excessive in armor-piercing. Unification.
          2. 0
            1 June 2019 10: 07
            you are just out of luck with the country
            1. -1
              1 June 2019 10: 54
              Quote: ELEZKIY
              you are just out of luck with the country

              But you, judging by the erysipelas on your avatar, are lucky.
    3. +4
      28 May 2019 16: 20
      Quote: Den717
      Why do you think, in 1943, after the shelling of Pz-VI, our generals from the State Academic Technical University and production did not dare to return the length of the original pipe to the F-34, like the F-22?

      What's the point? Lengthening the barrel alone does not solve anything - to increase the initial speed, you need to increase the charge in the sleeve. And this is a new shot with all the amenities like launching it in a series.

      Then what does it mean - did not dare? GABTU and designers decided even more - in 1943 the S-54 tank gun was tested under the most powerful of the 76-mm rounds - an anti-aircraft gun shot. ICH, S-54 got up in the standard tower T-34-76 without alterations.

      But on this all the advantages of the 76-mm high-power guns ended. And the cons started.
      Firstly, the 76-mm anti-aircraft gun shell was discontinued.
      Secondly, the higher the speed, the thicker the OFS wall and the lower its power. And OFS is the main projectile of the tank (75% of the BC). For the USSR, this problem is compounded by the fact that steel cast iron is going to the OFS corps.
      You can reduce the initial OFS speed by reducing the charge. But here we are faced with another problem - the lower the initial speed, the smaller the range of a direct shot. But you can’t reduce it. Moreover, it must be raised at least to the effective PTA range of the enemy in order to effectively crush these guns with fire. For firing outside the direct range for wartime crews is difficult.
      So there is only one way out - increasing speed with increasing caliber. And we come ... right, to D-5 and S-53.
      Quote: Den717
      After all, even before the war, they knew that the brb projectile that exceeded 700 m / s in speed was acquiring new penetrating qualities. The measure is palliative, but at least something.

      In theory. But in practice, a high-speed shell requires high-quality steel. Such as that of the Yankees - in which 76-mm BBS pierced the armor without significant deformation. We were not able to make such high-alloy shell shells. Therefore, we went along the second path: instead of an unreasonable increase in speed, increase the caliber and increase the speed moderately.
      1. +1
        28 May 2019 18: 30
        Quote: Alexey RA
        GABTU and designers decided even more - in 1943 the S-54 tank gun was tested

        That's for sure - decided on more. Autumn. After the defeat of the 5th Guards TA near Prokhorovka, after Malenkov's commission, Rotmistrov's letters about the unusable materiel of the BTV. I guess the IVS gave speed to everyone, including Grabin, by recalling how he designed a 107mm tank gun in 45 days. They themselves, after the shooting in April 1943 of the captured Pz-VI, received in January 1943, could not guess to the "determination" for a new weapon. In one article, information slipped through that the idea of ​​adding 10 klb to the F-34 was still at factory # 172, the power of the gun rose by 20%, the brb projectile accelerated to 748 m / s, but in June 1943, for some unknown reason, it was rejected Artkom NKV. So I wonder what the reason was indicated in the protocol of the commission?
        1. +3
          28 May 2019 19: 18
          Quote: Den717
          That's for sure - decided on more. In the fall. After the defeat of the 5th Guards TA near Prokhorovka, after the commission of Malenkov, Rotmistrov’s letter about the useless BTV military unit.

          Rotmistrov’s letter is not at the box office right here - it was clear to everyone involved that in this way Rotmistrov was trying to avoid the unpleasant conclusions about the use of 5 Guards. TA under Prokhorovka and shift the blame on the designers.
          Quote: Den717
          In one article, the info slipped through that the idea to add 10 klb to the F-34 was still at plant No. 172, the gun’s power increased by 20%, the brb shell accelerated to 748 m / s, but in June 1943 it was rejected for an unclear reason NKV artcom. So it’s interesting, what reason was indicated in the protocol of the commission?

          Here it is more interesting - with what shot was this initial speed achieved? For exactly the same 50-caliber F-22 with a regular shot achieved BBS dispersal to just 690 m / s.
          If the shot is non-standard, then the reason for the refusal is understandable. In 1943, the gun could be taken only in the presence of a serial shot. This, by the way, ruined all ideas on resuming the production of good pre-war 107-mm guns and gave a ticket to the life of a non-standard 100-mm caliber for the army - for 107-mm shots were discontinued, and 100-mm shots were made for the fleet.
          Quote: Den717
          They themselves, after the shooting in April 1943 of the captured Pz-VI, received in January 1943, could not guess to the "determination" for a new weapon.

          I recommend asking you when the work on the 85-mm tank gun began (hint - U-12, ZIK-1, ZIS-25). And when a GKO decree appeared that legitimized these works.
          And also - why the project of the autumn of 1942 on the rearmament of HF on an 85-mm gun was hacked.
          1. +1
            28 May 2019 19: 52
            Quote: Alexey RA
            I recommend to ask

            If there is a source, share it. I would love to accept such help, as well as the arguments for the 107mm gun. If you believe Grabin, then his (gun) was ruined by the lack of a chassis, and the supply of ammunition was just from under Nikolai ...
            1. +3
              29 May 2019 11: 26
              Quote: Den717
              If there is a source, share it.

              The second part of the article uv. Yuri Pasholok's "Big gun for a small tower" is dedicated to 85-mm wartime tank artillery systems.
              U-12 - started development in December 1941 ZIK-25 - in March 1942. ZIS-25 - in October 1942.
              The draft ZIS-25 was sent for consideration on November 5, 1942. The answer from the GABTU KA turned out to be mixed. Recognizing the positive properties of the gun, its authors quite rightly indicated that the rate of fire of the main weapons of the KV-1 with such a gun would definitely decrease, and to an unacceptable level of 2 rounds per minute. The fact is that the tower did not become anymore, but the 52-K unitary cartridge had a length of 985 mm, which was as much as 336 mm longer than the ZIS-5 cartridge. Because of this, the charging process is very complicated.
              In principle, in the GABTU the spacecraft were not against the manufacture of the ZIS-25, but they demanded that measures be taken to increase the rate of fire up to 5 rounds per minute.

              https://warspot.ru/8778-bolshaya-pushka-dlya-nebolshoy-bashni

              In short, work on 85-mm guns went on throughout the first half of the war. And if not for them, then the same D-5 could hardly be obtained so quickly (the U-12 was taken as the base for its design).
              Officially, work on the rearmament of the tanks was started by GKO Decree No. 3289 dated May 5, 1943 "On strengthening the artillery armament of tanks and self-propelled guns".
              Quote: Den717
              If you believe Grabin, then his (gun) was ruined by the lack of a chassis, and the supply of ammunition was just from under Nikolai ...

              Yeah ... it was especially good under Nicholas with armor-piercing shells for 107-mm guns. smile
              You can only rely on stock if the gun is no longer being manufactured - then the systems remaining in the ranks can finish mobilization stock, by the use of which they can be written off barrel wear. If we are going to produce the gun in series, then for it we need serial ammunition, we can’t do with supplies.
              1. +1
                29 May 2019 13: 02
                Quote: Alexey RA
                reserves can not do here.

                "42-linear field heavy gun mod. 1910 " It was made from imperial times and until the 30s was in service with the Red Army in the amount of 863 pieces. The range of ammunition included armor-piercing blunt-headed projectile (ARVS) B-420. So there was a supply, in Soviet times there was production. I can’t say how fatally they stopped him. But I think that its restoration was theoretically possible. Those. from scratch it was not necessary to develop.
          2. 0
            28 May 2019 19: 59
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Thus, Rotmistrov is trying to avoid the unpleasant conclusions about the use of 5 Guards. TA under Prokhorovka and shift the blame on the designers.

            Vasilevsky was directly responsible for entering the battle of 5 GvTA, and the commissioning plan was agreed with the General Staff and the Supreme. By the way, Rotmistrov offered quite a sensible idea of ​​using his own army, but it was rejected and the army was almost drowned in Psle. There is a very murky story. But the lack of materiel was very contrasting. And, of course, not without attempts to translate the arrows. Rotmistrov was very straightforward and "wiped out" everyone (whom he considered necessary wink ) without diplomatic turns.
            1. +4
              29 May 2019 11: 33
              Quote: Den717
              Vasilevsky was directly responsible for entering the 5th GVTA into the battle, and the introduction plan was agreed with the General Staff and the Supreme.

              Everyone participated there.
              Anger I.V. After July 12, Stalin was provoked not by AM Vasilevsky’s recommendation on the appropriateness of a counterattack, but rather by how poorly prepared and thought out the introduction of a powerful tank formation — the 5th Guards. TA, as well as the 5th Guards. And, for which he instructed to track him personally, and the marshal, apparently, poorly fulfilled his order. Consequently, he must bear his part of the responsibility for failure to comply with his order together with P.A. Rotmistrov, who, according to the charter, was responsible for preparing the army and its entry into battle.
              © Zamulin
              1. 0
                29 May 2019 11: 56
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Everyone participated there.

                Everyone, of course, including Stalin. He could not be angry with himself and sprinkle ashes on his head, so he "broke" all the guilty from the second turn. The phenomenon is common. Another question is that in every big case, especially considered in retrospect, there will always be mistakes, and oversight, and other human and non-human factors. After all this, it is important to do a competent "work on mistakes", shifting to the modern situation.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    4. 0
      31 May 2019 13: 46
      Quote: Den717
      return the F-34 to the length of the original pipe, like the F-22?

      What the hell? The complexity of production increases, and the output is something near zero.
      Quote: Den717
      After all, the Germans showed how much this technique can be effective.

      What did the "Germans show"?
      They had a completely different gun PaK36 (r). Which to the F-22 had a very distant relationship.
      Do you understand?
      Well, very distant. Nothing in common, just a few identical details.
      The F-22 in the Wehrmacht was called differently, FK296 (r).
      But there were also FK36 (r).
      Quote: Den717
      After all, even before the war, they knew that the brb projectile that exceeded 700 m / s in speed was acquiring new penetrating qualities.

      This is another fable of Runet. There was nothing like this and could not be.
      Quote: Den717
      According to this principle, the 45-mm anti-tank gun of the 1937 model was upgraded to M-42

      Forty-five was "modernized" according to the principle that the NKVD is always right. M-42 is a pure sabotage against the Red Army by the NKVD.
      Quote: Den717
      M-42 worked better than 45 armor model 1937.

      Very little. And a very expensive price.
      1. +1
        1 June 2019 10: 33
        Quote: Urfin22
        This is another fable of Runet. There was nothing like this and could not be.

        How do you confirm your childish categorization?
        Quote: Urfin22
        What did the "Germans show"?

        Changed the gun on the Pz-IV (in the modification F2) without significant changes to the turret and began to penetrate the T-34 at great distances. And even went on to change the shot itself. As you can see, quite successfully. Apparently, they generally did not particularly bother with the unification of ammunition, the logistics of deliveries of different types of ammunition were built so that they supplied the troops with what they needed, as a rule.
        Quote: Urfin22
        The complexity of production increases, and the output is something near zero.

        20% stat increase for you around 0? Oh well...
        Quote: Urfin22
        Forty-five was "modernized" according to the principle that the NKVD is always right. M-42 is a pure sabotage against the Red Army by the NKVD.

        Unproven statement.
        1. 0
          1 June 2019 11: 06
          Quote: Den717
          your childish categorization?

          And who are you to draw such conclusions? You look after yourself more.
          Quote: Den717
          Changed the gun on the Pz-IV (in the modification F2) without significant changes to the turret and began to penetrate the T-34 at great distances.

          Well, let's change. What's next? The USSR also changed when it could. In 1944, then what?
          You do not blabber the topic - what does this have to do with the F-22 and PaK36 (r)?
          Quote: Den717
          As you can see, quite successfully.

          As I understand it, you don’t even know what the F-22 is.
          Quote: Den717
          20% stat increase for you around 0?

          What 20% are we talking about? Do not make up.
          In addition, the F-22 in 1941 in the USSR there was nowhere to produce. The limit of technological capabilities for mass production was three inches with a barrel length of 40 klb.
          The Americans proposed to force them with propelling charges with quick-burning gunpowder. Moreover, they were calculated clumsily (except for the ZIS-3 arr. 1942) and they could withstand these charges.
          But they forgot that they are dealing with the USSR. And there wasn’t much gunpowder. And even the passport 655-662 m / s serial guns did not give out. Maximum 630-640 m / s.
          Quote: Den717
          Unproven statement.

          Very evidence-based. If you understand the artillery.
          Compare the pitch of the rifling of her barrel with the N / s of her shells, for starters.
          1. 0
            1 June 2019 11: 24
            Quote: Urfin22
            As I understand it, you don’t even know what the F-22 is.

            What does the F-22 have to do with it? The essence of the conversation is the methods and timeliness of the reaction to changes in the technical weapons of the enemy.
            Quote: Urfin22
            Well, let's change. What's next? The USSR also changed when it could. In 1944, then what?

            And "further" nothing .... good. While "smog" lost people and equipment. A trifle ... A "could" when the Supreme's magic pendel sped up everyone. Itself was not leisure.
            Quote: Urfin22
            And who are you
            I won’t ask you, and so it’s clear ...
      2. +1
        3 June 2019 20: 47
        Quote: Urfin22
        Quote: Den717
        M-42 worked better than 45 armor model 1937.

        Very little. And a very expensive price.

        According to the report on the shelling of the T-6 (Pz-VI) compiled in May 1943, the 82mm side armor of the M-42 pierced from 350 meters, and the 45mm gun model 1937 from 200. So your statements, dear urfin22, are based on empty speculation. Actually, the rest of the theses are about the same. Well, except maybe the length of the shell case for Pak-40. Yes, in one reference book the figure is 445mm, in the other - 495. It happens. The main thing is that there is no fundamental difference in this situation. In any case, it differs from the tank one. If you want to accuse Grabin of a lie, write an article under your own name and debunk the villain, there is no need to hide the historical truth under a faceless pseudonym. The truth for the "bazaar" can be called to account. But you are sure that you are right ?! laughing
      3. The comment was deleted.
  9. +3
    27 May 2019 21: 51
    Andrei, you enchanted me with more stories about ships. I was sure that you were a naval officer or, at worst, a professional historian.
    Then I found out that you are an economist.
    As for the tank, I don’t understand such a moment: T-34 was tested at the tank test site, and what was done there by the head of the 2nd Directorate of Glavrzved Directorate. Perhaps his office was engaged in technical intelligence?
    1. +7
      27 May 2019 23: 49
      Astra wild, the situation is the following ...
      1. The USSR also transferred its equipment to its allies for testinglike them to us.
      2. In particular, the T-34 (and KV) were sent to the United States and (if I do not confuse anything) to England.
      3. T-34 trials in the USA (at the Aberdeen training ground) were also attended by our military, including the head of the 2nd Directorate of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Red Army, Major General Panzer Troops Khlopov.
      4. He was there quite legally, and, most likely, mainly collected information about American technology (our military experts watched a lot of things in the US (and "sniffed out", of course, too)), but these tests were of considerable interest to him.
    2. +2
      28 May 2019 00: 57
      Quote: Astra wild
      Andrei, you have fascinated Me with stories about ships.

      Thank you! hi Extremely flattered!
      Quote: Astra wild
      As for the tank, I don’t understand such a moment: T-34 was tested on the tank test site, but what the head of the 2 Department did

      I join the statement of the distinguished PilotS37, he said everything better than I could have done
  10. +5
    27 May 2019 22: 00
    About "finishing on the go".
    Read the memoirs of Grabin (they are on the network, they were on the aldebaran for sure), how he "went to the people", that is, to the workshops of the plant where his guns were produced. I learned a lot of new and not very good things. How the changes made by his design bureau to the design of parts were simply lost "at the crossing by the sea" and did not reach the manufacture of specific parts, or how the blacksmith shop forged "elephants". The part of the gun weighs 50 kg, and the blank for it weighs 700-800. And these hundreds of kg of metal were cut into shavings on machine tools. And why? And at the blacksmith shop there is a plan in tons, so he makes "elephants". With tanks, I'm sure it was no better.
    1. +2
      28 May 2019 16: 54
      Quote: Not the fighter
      or how the blacksmith shop forged "elephants". The part of the gun weighs 50 kg, and the blank for it weighs 700-800. And these hundreds of kilograms of metal were cut into shavings on machine tools. And why? And at the blacksmith shop there is a plan in tons, so he makes "elephants".

      This is not only a plan, but also features of the technology of that time.
      Because exactly the same problem was faced by the Americans when they received technical documentation from Sweden for a 40-mm MZA "Bofors": for example, a blank for a flame arrester, according to the documentation, weighed 40 pounds, and a part - only 10. When making another part, 90 pounds were wasted. % of the workpiece.
      Chrysler engineers had to change both the design and the process technology. The result turned out to be impressive: if in Britain 260-340 hours were spent on the production of one Bofors using the original technology, in the USA the modified gun required only 14 hours. In just a year, almost 3,5 thousand tons of high-quality steel and 1,9 million man-hours were saved.
  11. +2
    27 May 2019 22: 00
    Dear Andrey, as a child I watched the vehicle "four tankers" and now, reading about the T-34, I thought, probably, the tankers had a T-34 in the 1943 modification.
    Dear fellow tankers, do not laugh at me, but in my opinion they are similar
    1. +4
      27 May 2019 23: 18
      Quote: Astra wild
      but I think they look like

      Three Poles, Georgians and a dog. laughing It is not yours, mrs. T-34-85 was filmed there.
      1. +2
        27 May 2019 23: 52
        Well, I can’t understand in any way whether the dog was there: gunner or loader? - Whose rations did you eat? am
        1. +6
          27 May 2019 23: 56
          Quote: PilotS37
          a gunner or loader?

          The dog was everlasting. wink
        2. +1
          28 May 2019 16: 56
          Quote: PilotS37
          Well, I can’t understand in any way whether the dog was there: gunner or loader?

          Assistant shooter-radio operator. smile
      2. +2
        28 May 2019 01: 33
        Your untruth, Mistress. T-34-85 was shot there

        As far as I remember the plot, after 30 years after viewing, they started on the same tank (maybe t34-76), and then got their brand new Red (T-34-85). And then they fought all the way on it.
        1. +5
          28 May 2019 07: 25
          Quote: MooH
          As far as I remember the plot, after 30 years after viewing, they started on the same tank (maybe t34-76), and then got their brand new Red (T-34-85). And then they fought all the way on it.

          Yes, most likely the scriptwriters, when they were writing the script, looked at which tanks the 1st Polish brigade had landed, and saw that there was a crew of 4 people - from here they began to dance. In fact, the brigade was formed in 43, that is, there was no talk of the T-34-85 yet. But when the script was written and filmed, according to the old Soviet tradition, the T-34-76 could no longer be found. Or find it, but somewhere in the very, very secret warehouses of the Soviet army beyond the Urals. But the T-34-85 was in bulk, and in Poland itself. The filmmakers of that era did not really bother with such trifles, the main thing is the T-34, and 76 or 85 - who can take it apart. So they shot the whole movie on the 85th tank, although obviously in the first series it should have been the 76th. It was the same with the Germans - in a number of cases the tanks depicting Panzers in Soviet cinema were not always decently camouflaged with plywood - you can see with the naked eye that the T-55s were being driven there and the T-34s.
          1. +2
            28 May 2019 12: 35
            According to the book (and there was a book) they started on the T-34-76. Then their gun was swollen and they sawed off a piece of the gun. And then the first tank burned down in a haystack (when they sailed away on a pontoon like on the Oder).
            In exchange, they were presented with a new tank T-34-85.
            And they fought on it not so long.
      3. 0
        30 May 2019 20: 43
        Mordvin, today I saw your comment and decided to look about the T-34-85mm, there are 5 people in the crew, and this one is 4. I no longer remember from the film what year the action takes place? Perhaps the script was the previous model
        1. 0
          30 May 2019 21: 03
          Quote: Astra wild
          Mordvin, I saw your comment today and decided to look at the T-34-85mm, there is a crew of 5 people, and in this 4.

          According to the book, they initially fought on T-34-76, but only T-34-85 were shot in the film.
          Here is a frame from the 2 series, i.e. almost from the beginning.

          In general, it seems that by the end of the war there was practically no T-34-76 left, so there was nothing to shoot.
          1. 0
            30 May 2019 21: 06
            Here is the T-34-76.
            1. 0
              30 May 2019 21: 57
              To be honest, I violet on the tower to distinguish tanks
              1. 0
                30 May 2019 22: 02
                Quote: Astra wild
                To be honest, I violet on the tower to distinguish tanks

                Pay attention to the base of the guns. This is one of the differences that catches the eye.
          2. 0
            13 June 2019 15: 49
            On the photo T-34-85 Czech production))
        2. 0
          31 May 2019 17: 07
          Quote: Astra wild
          Yeshil look about the T-34-85mm, there is a crew of 5 people, and in this 4.

          The first T-34/85 with a D-5T gun were with crews of 4 people.
          Five crew members were in the T-34/85 with a cannon S-53 and ZIS-S-53.
    2. +3
      28 May 2019 00: 57
      And yet - the T-34-85. Respectfully! hi
    3. 0
      30 June 2019 19: 46
      T-34-85. Three Poles Georgians and a dog
  12. +2
    27 May 2019 22: 46
    Andrei hi In addition to the means of observation, on the early t-34 series, there was an acute problem with radio stations, just like on airplanes in the initial period of the war, or not?

    but finally, only the T-34-85 were able to go over to complete radio installation of the tanks.
  13. +3
    27 May 2019 22: 56
    Andrey, many thanks for the article. Plus, a sure plus. Improvement of the T-34 in the conditions of the evacuation of factories and a comprehensive deficit was an extremely difficult process. And the fact that normal tanks went to the beginning of 1943 is completely unsurprising. As for the elimination of T-34 blindness, yes, the tanks of 1943 were already quite sighted vehicles. And the MK-4 device adopted from the British, and the introduction of the commander’s turret - by the way, the latter was initially adopted on tanks of the 112 plant (Sormovsky).
  14. +1
    27 May 2019 23: 02
    Another cool article good . Thanks to the author, very interesting and informative.
  15. +3
    27 May 2019 23: 07
    Andrey, thank you very much for the article. It is amazing that you carefully avoided (in general, this is definitely not about you) such moments as the ballistics of the guns and the range of effective combat for these tanks. And how decomposition is precisely the quality of the sights. It is generally accepted that the Germans could start the battle at longer distances. In my opinion, the chapter on the quality and properties of armor of this period is also very important (when we no longer have a full F, but the Germans have not collapsed yet) It would be very interesting to hear your opinion on these points. Thank you, thank you for your incredible work!
    1. +4
      28 May 2019 00: 54
      Quote: looker-on
      It's amazing that you carefully walked (in general, this is definitely not about you) such moments as the ballistics of the guns and the effective combat range for these tanks.

      They will be you! I left them to Panther and Tigger :))))) hi drinks
    2. +9
      28 May 2019 01: 43
      Supplement slightly:
      - Another interesting question is the chassis. We have an outdated and tough Christie with overloaded front rollers, and the German is just outdated, overloaded and with a narrow caterpillar.
      -In the conversation about projectile resistance, the front location of the transmission was not taken into account. This is a rather important and difficult topic.
      -Well, and a cherry on the cake, the combat dynamics and the speed of passage of the landfill. For some reason, the issue is completely ignored by historians, but the speed of combat maneuvering is an obvious tactical advantage.
      1. +2
        28 May 2019 06: 11
        And the T-III suspension is more progressive in design, although also overloaded and with a narrow caterpillar.
  16. +15
    27 May 2019 23: 09
    I read the article and found myself thinking that such questions about the format of one article cannot be clarified seriously, and even Andrei’s well-known meticulousness is not enough for such a voluminous work — there are too many assumptions and not generalized figures and facts, and therefore there are many questions and comments. for instance
    1. On the diesel engine.
    Andrei wrote that by 1943 he had managed to bring his real resource to a nominal one. Only here, even the nominal resource of a B2 diesel engine at that time was very much inferior to German gasoline ones, and in practice this led to the fact that the Germans were free to maneuver along quite a long distance along the front line, providing a high concentration of their tanks in the necessary areas without risking losing half of the equipment on the march. I don’t know why Andrei wrote that only a 75 mm projectile was dangerous for diesel fuel, IMHO, this is clearly not the case, since a solarium burns worse only in the absence of fumes, with their presence the fire hazard is practically not inferior to gasoline, and with any hit of a projectile heat is emitted in armor in significant quantities. The solarium burns perfectly. I had to read that the fire hazard of the T34 even exceeded the gasoline T60.


    Of course, the diesel mileage at one gas station was somewhat higher, but this problem was solved by providing supplies, and the Germans had it well set. Moreover, in 1943, blitzkriegs with deep raids on the rear of our troops were not typical, this is not 1941. Based on the foregoing, in my opinion, it cannot be argued that in 1943 the diesel engine had advantages over German gasoline.
    2. By maneuverability, maneuverability and thrust-weight ratio.
    Somehow we had the opinion that the lower the average specific pressure on the ground, the better the tank.
    And 0,79 (and initially generally 0,62) in T34 is often served as an exemplary value. But in reality, everything is not so simple. Less pressure on the ground, of course, a big advantage on arable land or swamps, but on a frozen or just rocky slope with hard ground, such a small pressure on the ground is a significant drawback, the tank will slip. In addition, it should be borne in mind that the average pressure on the ground is like the average temperature in the hospital, the actual patency and pressure on the ground for each particular type of soil and tank will depend on the shape of the tracks, the number and location of the rollers, the location of the center of gravity of the tank and other factors. They choose some optimal one due to various factors - the modern T90, for example, is 0,88 and feels fine.
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA#%D0%A5%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C
    Sherman at the time of the war had 0,96 and there were no special complaints about patency in the memoirs, so you need to be careful when evaluating the tank for ground pressure.
    Similarly, the problem with thrust and maneuverability. Our second on the T34 in the battle was included not only because it was difficult to change gears, but also because of problems with the tank turning mechanism, formally the T34 could rotate along a given radius, but there were a lot of nuances, and really the T34 turned by braking the side clutch with a brake band, and so it was possible to turn only at relatively low speeds, in fact, on a gear no higher than the second, otherwise in battle it was possible to break a track or burn a friction clutch. The Germans had a much better turning mechanism, and it was easier for them to use the gearbox in battle, so the difference in thrust-to-weight ratio should also be used to evaluate taking these important factors into account. Sherman, by the way, she was 13 and also did not complain.
    3. By visibility. Actually, the fact that the German had a tank commander who monitored the environment in itself gives a huge advantage in battle, regardless of the location of the devices. With us, as we know, the commander was actually a gunner. There was still an important nuance that Andrei did not touch - this is the small armored volume of the T34, which led to the fact that the tank was crowded, not so VERY TEN! This markedly complicated the use of observation devices and greatly increased crew fatigue on marches (which led to a decrease in attention and other negative factors that actually affect combat effectiveness). In addition, there was another important factor - at T34 the tower is shifted forward, which also negatively affects fatigue and visibility.
    You can still write a lot on this topic, including according to the assumptions in the article, but I will limit myself to this just to show the complexity and versatility of assessing the real combat potential of the compared tanks.
    In general, the article is, of course, interesting, and Andrei, of course, is one of the best authors at the VO, but it seems that a serious discussion of the topic that he touched on requires much deeper and more extensive work in order to remove all the questions, and this , of course, already clearly goes beyond the format of the article on the site hi
    1. +1
      27 May 2019 23: 58
      slight pressure on the ground is a significant drawback, the tank will slip.

      And this is a question for the tracks!
      1. +1
        28 May 2019 00: 05
        Not only. this is a question for the selected specific pressure on the soil. the greater the pressure, the more stable the tank will be on a solid slope and the worse it will be on arable land. and vice versa.
        We need an optimum, some average value, which in each case is determined individually.
        1. +1
          28 May 2019 00: 08
          Avior, so I’m talking about the same thing: pressure - pressure, but sliding is treated by the form of the truck, but in the mud the main thing is pressure ...
          1. 0
            28 May 2019 00: 15
            far from always and not so simple.
            these are the specific pressure values ​​of modern tanks.
            Well, you don’t think that all over the world stupid designers just didn’t guess the wider tracks?
            1. 0
              28 May 2019 00: 21
              The larger the track area, the lower the speed: priorities have shifted.
              But it would be very amusing to protest Abrams on our "directions" ...
              1. -1
                28 May 2019 00: 52
                no, the T-80, Leclerc, Leopard or T-90 and others from the table have a maximum speed of almost the same, about 70 km per hour, modern tanks are faster than the times of the Second World War, and their speed is much higher than that of the T-34, and the pressure on the ground is much greater.
                Here, Peter rode one, pay attention to his drifts

                In general, everything is complicated enough to draw simple conclusions. you just need to consider this factor.
        2. +1
          28 May 2019 03: 20
          Quote: Avior
          Not only. this is a question for the selected specific pressure on the soil. the greater the pressure, the more stable the tank will be on a solid slope and the worse it will be on arable land. and vice versa.
          We need an optimum, some average value, which in each case is determined individually.

          I would advise looking into a physics textbook. The friction force does not depend on the area of ​​the support. Only on mass and coefficient of friction. So the PilotS37 is right in making the remark that the tank’s resistance to slipping depends on its tracks, or rather on the shape of the lugs of their tracks.
          1. +1
            28 May 2019 08: 46
            with the same form of tracks, a wider caterpillar will not only allow you to feel better on soft soils, but also compensate for the lack of specific pressure on hard soils. The only drawbacks are speed, understeer and maintainability limitations.
            1. +1
              28 May 2019 10: 04
              there is no such simple dependence, as it is customary for us to consider when discussing this issue.
              if there is soil on which the top layer is wetted with water, then with a large contact spot there will be liquid friction, and the tank will slide, if small, it will push to dry soil and will move stably and there are a lot of different situations like this.
              in fact, this dependence is much more complicated than a primitive comparison of the average specific ground pressure.
              on the fingers is not solved.
              and I specifically cited data on modern tanks, so that it was clear why it’s not so easy to assume that the lower the pressure, the better.
              1. 0
                28 May 2019 10: 32
                - as for your example with the advantage of narrow tracks, this may be in a very narrow range of practice, but just from general practice, thirty-four were clearly better than PzIII - PzIV.
                - as for modern tanks, for comparison it is more reasonable to take vehicles of the same mass, for example: Bradley m2a2 - m2a3, whose specific pressure is 0,66-0,67
                1. 0
                  28 May 2019 11: 55
                  as for your example with the advantage of narrow tracks, this can be in a very narrow range of practice,

                  well yes. rain, snow, frost in Russia is such a rarity compared to arable land, swamps and torrential rains. What about Sherman? 0,96 - and no special complaints.
                  just from general practice, thirty-four were clearly better than PzIII - PzIV.
                  here it is, and Andrei writes articles here, tries.
                  as for modern tanks, for comparison it’s wiser to take cars of the same mass,

                  Why?
                  For example: Bradley m2a2 - m2a3

                  but don't you think that the tank and the floating bmp have different tasks and, accordingly, requirements and design?
                  1. 0
                    28 May 2019 12: 24
                    - Shermans - generally turned over,
                    - but as for modern tanks in this weight category, I must admit that I don’t know anything except the Swedish CV90 / 120, and even then, its specific ground pressure is not indicated, but it is indicated that it is made on the basis of the CV90 / 40 BMP, in which this parameter is 0,48-0,53
                    1. +1
                      28 May 2019 20: 46
                      not only turned over
                      Loza wrote about the complete helplessness of the Sherman on ice
                      mechanics screwed homemade wire lugs onto the tracks
                      He also demonstrated this problem to an American representative. He promised to come up with a thread.
                      soon the Americans began to send sets of lugs for installation on Sherman goose
                      1. 0
                        29 May 2019 11: 41
                        neither one nor the other has any relation to the pressure on the ground, agree.
                        and it’s about him
                      2. 0
                        30 May 2019 11: 29
                        Quote: kytx
                        Loza wrote about the complete helplessness of the Sherman on ice

                        Loza wrote that they ended up on ice with asphalt tracks.
                        Quote: kytx
                        soon the Americans began to send sets of lugs for installation on Sherman goose

                        Not lugs, but studded tracks for installation in the track. And instantly, given the distance to Detroit. That is, everything was already ready in advance.
                      3. 0
                        4 June 2019 04: 14
                        that's honestly too lazy to search and quote the source
                        you did not convince me in short
                        Sherman’s goose was not ready for the dirt
                        as Matilda about which Loza also wrote all indecency :) although he did not scold aloud
                      4. 0
                        4 June 2019 10: 33
                        Quote: kytx
                        Sherman’s goose was not ready for the dirt

                        The stump was not clear.

                        Because they stood wrong caterpillars.

                        So the question is more to acceptance. From the 42nd year it was already possible to figure it out.
          2. 0
            28 May 2019 09: 55
            I looked in more than once.
            but firstly, I did not write about the "friction force", secondly, the tracks and the ground are not two absolutely rigid ideally flat surfaces, so as to talk about the area of ​​support, but thirdly, I gave data on other tanks, including modern ones. Do you really think that tank designers are ignorant?
            1. 0
              28 May 2019 10: 56
              Quote: Avior
              I looked in more than once.
              but firstly, I did not write about the "friction force", secondly, the tracks and the ground are not two absolutely rigid ideally flat surfaces, so as to talk about the area of ​​support, but thirdly, I gave data on other tanks, including modern ones. Do you really think that tank designers are ignorant?

              Then what do these words mean:
              "not only. it's still a question to the selected specific ground pressure. the more pressure, the more sustainable the tank will be on a solid slope and the worse it will be on arable land. and vice versa. we need an optimum, some average value, which is determined individually in each case. "
              What is meant by steep slope stability?
              1. 0
                28 May 2019 10: 58
                ability to maintain a selected trajectory of movement.
                not a word about the force of friction, by the way. love
                I wrote more detailed situations there.
    2. 0
      28 May 2019 00: 02
      Avior, and I think that Andrey, with our help and everyone here, will come to
      much deeper and more voluminous work
      .
      1. 0
        28 May 2019 00: 07
        I suspect that from a financial point of view this is not very profitable, there will be too limited a circulation.
        and it will take a lot of time request
        1. 0
          28 May 2019 00: 10
          As Mr. Shadow used to say, "money doesn't matter!" ©
          wassat wassat wassat
    3. +1
      28 May 2019 01: 31
      Quote: Avior
      too many assumptions remain and no generalizations confirmed by figures and facts

      Of course. I do not pretend to be an ideal and comprehensive monograph, as you absolutely noticed - this is the format of the article. And his task, perhaps, even not to give absolutely comprehensive answers, but to show that there are grounds for a different point of view
      Quote: Avior
      Andrei wrote that 1943 was able to bring its real resource to nominal. Only here even the nominal resource of the B2 diesel engine at that time was very much inferior to the German petrol

      I came across data that actually B-2 managed to work up to 250 hours. This, by the way, is almost Sherman
      Quote: Avior
      I don’t know why Andrei wrote that only 75 mm projectile was dangerous for diesel fuel

      not dangerous, but caused detonation :) Baryatinsky has on this subject that 50 mm shells and below, even after hitting a fuel tank filled a quarter to the area where the vapors accumulated, did not cause detonation
      Quote: Avior
      Solarium burns fine

      Who argues. The question is that if an 34-mm projectile exploded inside the T-75, could it be important for someone from the crew how a diesel fuel burns?
      Quote: Avior
      with the assessment of the tank on the pressure on the ground should be approached with caution.

      Yes. But in most of the clashes, this is exactly a plus - not so often we have rocky slopes
      But we often have a thaw, and here the combination of small pressure + high power solved
      Quote: Avior
      In Sherman, by the way, she was 13 and also did not complain.

      Even as they complained, these complaints stopped only after a more powerful engine was installed on the Sherman.
      Quote: Avior
      There was also an important nuance that Andrew did not touch; this is a small book-by-volume volume for T34, which led to the fact that the tank was cramped, not so very closely!

      It's in any tank like that :))) It was just a little less closely in German :)
      Quote: Avior
      Actually, the fact that the German had a tank commander, who was monitoring the environment, in fact gives a huge advantage in battle regardless of the location of the instruments.

      Gives. But his lack of specialized optics greatly reduces his capabilities.
      Quote: Avior
      but it seems that a serious consideration of the topic he touched upon requires a much deeper and more extensive work in order to remove all the questions

      By itself:)
      1. +1
        28 May 2019 10: 21
        show that there is reason for a different point of view

        I realized smile
        I came across data that really B-2 managed to work up to 250 hours.

        Unless very separate. And I came across data that the Germans had a typical resource up to a thousand hours.
        And as for Sherman, the memoirs clearly indicate that Sherman’s resource far exceeded the T-34. Moreover, you probably know about the post-war view that Sherman, unlike even our post-war tanks, was much better suited for operation in peacetime units precisely because of the small resource of our tanks.
        Yes. But in most of the clashes, this is exactly a plus - not so often we have rocky slopes
        But we often have a thaw, and here the combination of small pressure + high power solved

        It is not that simple. and, for example, on the topsoil moistened with water, the wide caterpillar will skid, and the narrow one will push it dry. With frost or snow, similar problems. Yes, and we had enough different hillocks, ravines, gullies and other things, and ascents and descents to rivers and so on.
        Dependencies are too complex to just compare a number.
        And according to the same Sherman- had a very high pressure on the ground, they did not complain about the passability.
        Yes, and on modern tanks, too.
        As for the thrust-to-weight ratio, it is solved by the correct selection of gear ratios of the gearbox, it is not the power of the tank that is important, but the torque on the drive wheel.
        Here the maximum speed can be lower in this case, but in battle they did not drive at maximum speed.
        It's in any tank like that :))) It was just a little less closely in German :)

        noticeably less crowded and much more comfortable.
        Gives. But his lack of specialized optics greatly reduces his capabilities.

        if there is nobody to look into it, optics will not help. hi
        1. 0
          28 May 2019 12: 54
          Quote: Avior
          And I came across data that the Germans had a typical resource up to a thousand hours.

          can a tank really fight so much? request
        2. 0
          28 May 2019 17: 03
          Quote: Avior
          Unless very separate. And I came across data that the Germans had a typical resource up to a thousand hours.

          EMNIP, SW. D. Shein wrote that in 1941 the Germans had enough motor resources to Smolensk. And then went requests for the replacement and repair of engines.
      2. 0
        28 May 2019 11: 02
        not dangerous, but caused detonation :) Baryatinsky has on this subject that 50 mm shells and below, even after hitting a fuel tank filled a quarter to the area where the vapors accumulated, did not cause detonation

        a solarium can burn in the fighting compartment.
        The question is, if a 34-mm shell exploded inside the T-75

        that's for sure. but to defeat the crew and not necessarily what would explode. and fuel detonation is optional. and here the solarium arising from a broken tank if it lights up and gets into the fighting compartment, that is the problem.
      3. 0
        28 May 2019 11: 03
        Even as they complained, these complaints stopped only after a more powerful engine was installed on the Sherman.

        Yes, Shermans on the engine were very different. but I had in mind the one that was delivered to us.
      4. 0
        30 May 2019 11: 34
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I came across data that actually B-2 managed to work up to 250 hours. This, by the way, is almost Sherman

        Only you have forgotten that the V-2 worked so much with competent maintenance and timely maintenance, and the Americans - under factory seals.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Even as they complained, these complaints stopped only after a more powerful engine was installed on the Sherman.

        1. The problem was not with power, but with high Wright speed and low traction on the bottoms. 2. Stopped only in comparison with Wright, Ford was also a frank ersatz.
        1. 0
          30 May 2019 19: 36
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          I came across data that actually B-2 managed to work up to 250 hours. This, by the way, is almost Sherman

          Only you have forgotten


          "... From November 11 to November 15, 1942, the second technical conference on the quality of V-2K (KV-1) and B2-34 (T-34) was held. Representatives of GBTU first of all noted a very imperfect air filtration system, fuel , oils.

          Responding to reproaches, Chupakhin cited a lack of space on the tank to install a more powerful filter system, primarily air.

          Trashutin said that research is being conducted to improve the workflow and the sleeve-ring pair with the involvement of NATI specialists. A special device for checking bending rings has been introduced.

          Chupakhin recalled that the engine underwent state tests with other pistons and rings. But the rings seemed difficult to manufacture and, at the request of the technologists, they were simplified, in addition, leaving only one ring per piston. As a result, quick wear and tear of the rings performing the oil scrapping function. It would be right to return to the original position, but there are doubts about the possibility of mastering the proposed ring technology.

          Talk about fuel equipment again - leaks, jamming of plungers, hanging of a spray needle. The highest production culture is needed. A lot of problems with drilling nozzle holes. The tightness of the connections of the tubes to the pumps is completely not ensured. As a result, in front-line conditions we have to constantly pull them up.

          An organic (from the very beginning of the existence of the motor) defect appeared - punching the gaskets of the block. The constructive solution - the overstatement of the sleeve collar, known since the pre-war time - was never realized.

          It was noted that the warranty period of 150 hours indicated in the registration form does not correspond to reality. [10] ... "
    4. 0
      28 May 2019 02: 01
      the volume of the T34, which led to the fact that the tank was crowded, is not so VERY CLOSE!

      Somewhere recently I read on VO, at Skomorokhov or something? which, compared to modern T-34 tanks, is a palace with a fireplace and ballrooms.
      I remembered that on YouTube they compared 34 and 90 at the training ground. My laugh.
      Somehow we had the opinion that the lower the average specific pressure on the ground, the better the tank.

      Have you met the word lug? At first, the Sherman had a disgusting goose, and the Germans also did not lay under our mud.
      Our second on the T34 in the battle included not only because it was difficult to change gears

      The second included physically weak and poorly trained drivers. The troops were very actively fighting this phenomenon.
      The mechanism of rotation we have discussed in detail last time. An intelligent person on a serviceable tank will learn in 2-3 hours.
      1. 0
        28 May 2019 04: 50
        The course of driving combat vehicles KVBM is approximately 180 hours of collision and not 2-3 as you said here.
        1. 0
          28 May 2019 08: 25
          We are talking about the narrow problem of mastering the rotation mechanism in order to complete the rotation without stopping.
        2. 0
          28 May 2019 10: 49
          it’s not even the level of preparation of the mechanical drive, but the features of the T-34 rotation mechanism.
      2. 0
        28 May 2019 05: 49
        Somewhere recently I read on VO, at Skomorokhov or something? which, compared to modern T-34 tanks, is a palace with a fireplace and ballrooms.


        what matters is not the volume itself, as the number of cubic meters, but the ergonomics of placement in this volume
        1. 0
          28 May 2019 08: 27
          A crawl? And change places? Lie down in the end.
          1. -1
            28 May 2019 08: 39
            Lie down in the end.


            sleeping outside the tank)

            A crawl?


            ease of maintenance of individual units does not depend on the volume of crawling directly

            And change places?


            why, if only anyone was injured? if injured - I agree, but then the tank is better to refrain from active actions if possible: damaged and with an incomplete crew - it will burn in vain for two times

            Threat. a sharp reduction in the reserved volume of modern tanks is the right step, while it is unlikely that anyone will say that fighting in the T-34-76 is much more convenient
            1. 0
              28 May 2019 11: 57
              reducing the reserve volume of modern tanks is the right step

              from the point of view of combat effectiveness definitely. But from the point of view of life in the tank for months is not very.
              Lie down, crawl, etc it’s not in battle but on a march, on a halt, in a caponier ...
      3. 0
        28 May 2019 10: 26
        Compared to modern T-34 tanks, it is a palace with a fireplace and ballrooms.
        I remembered that on YouTube they compared 34 and 90 at the training ground.

        This Soviet tradition was led just with the T-34.
        Small armored volume - smaller size and weight of the tank with the same reservation. and the T-90 is no exception.
        Have you met the word lug? At first, the Sherman had a disgusting goose, and the Germans also did not lay under our mud.

        met. Vine describes that this problem was solved very quickly by changing some tracks.
        But complaints about problems due to the very high in our opinion specific pressure on the soil - 0,96, I did not meet with him.
        The mechanism of rotation we have discussed in detail last time.

        disassembled. only everyone, as I understand it, remained with his opinion drinks
      4. 0
        30 May 2019 11: 38
        Quote: MooH
        Sherman initially had a disgusting goose

        Sherman had a terrific caterpillar, certainly the best of all tanks of the war. Only Americans could afford RMS.
        The problem that you wrote about is related to the use of standard asphalt pavement tracks where off-road tracks were required (Sherman had two dozen options but not all were where needed when needed).
    5. -2
      28 May 2019 06: 17
      Quote: Avior
      The Germans had a much better turning mechanism, and it was easier for them to use the gearbox in battle, so the difference in thrust-to-weight ratio should also be used to evaluate taking these important factors into account.

      I think it makes no sense to prove that German tanks from the point of view of technological development of some important units were more perfect and more convenient in operation. But there is one such nuance that will make you change your mind. The production of the Pz-VI required 300 man / hours, and the T-000 - 34. The difference is almost 5100 times. In this characteristic, there may be different calculation methods (and the numbers themselves in different sources may differ), but the order of numbers is observed. Judge for yourself.
      1. +1
        28 May 2019 08: 42
        The production of the Pz-VI required 300 man / hours, and the T-000 - 34. The difference is almost 5100 times.


        Then why did the first cost 250 thousand Reichmarks, and the second is not at all 4 thousand rubles?
        1. 0
          28 May 2019 08: 59
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Then why did the first cost 250 thousand Reichmarks, and the second is not at all 4 thousand rubles?

          An interesting question, we must remember the course, the T-34 in 1940 cost about 500, by 000 - according to various factories and estimates, 45 - 180 rubles. Again, what is included in the prices that are written in the books? In any case, even the Germans themselves expressed the opinion that "250" is at least twice as expensive as "000", which significantly reduced the industry's ability to restore the Wehrmacht's tank fleet. The topic is very fascinating and sensitive to sources.
          1. 0
            28 May 2019 10: 33
            I wouldn't compare the exchange rate so easily, the ruble has depreciated significantly during the war years, and the prices for the tank were determined in "nominal" rubles.
            The situation was such that with a worker’s salary of 500 rubles, a jar of honey in the bazaar near the artisan’s artisan could cost a thousand.
            nominal and real prices of that time is a big difference, this is a topic for another discussion.
          2. 0
            28 May 2019 11: 33
            Quote: Den717
            The question is interesting, we must remember the course

            Yes, it is not necessary to remember it :)))) Just need to remember that the assessment of the labor intensity in this case does not take into account the cost of materials for manufacturing, that's all. That is, in 60, not all tank costs differ, but only labor costs.
            The normal hour in this case is never political economy, it is not "labor embodied in a commodity", it seems to be exclusively the labor of the workers of the tank plant + the main subcontractors
        2. +2
          28 May 2019 10: 56
          Quote: Andrei Shmelev
          The production of the Pz-VI required 300 man / hours, and the T-000 - 34. The difference is almost 5100 times.


          Then why did the first cost 250 thousand Reichmarks, and the second is not at all 4 thousand rubles?

          The toe should be removed from 300. And then the mustache will fall into place.
          1. 0
            28 May 2019 17: 50
            Good afternoon, dear colleague. To be honest, I also think that the zero is superfluous, as someone mixed up the watches and brands)
            1. +1
              28 May 2019 18: 34
              Quote: Andrei Shmelev
              Good afternoon, dear colleague. To be honest, I also think that the zero is superfluous, as someone mixed up the watches and brands)

              And you ICE! According to the foreign source, 30.000 man-hours, but someone screwed up an extra zero and went for a walk des on the RuNet.
      2. +2
        28 May 2019 10: 28
        Quote: Den717
        The production of the Pz-VI required 300 man / hours, and the T-000 - 34. The difference is almost 5100 times

        Even in the ChTZ museum or UVZ you will not be given the total number of standard hours for the production of the tank as a whole, because the armored housing is one number of hours, a gun, an engine, surveillance devices, a transmission are all from subcontractors, where there is a standard for it, believe the engineer is technologist .. .
        1. +4
          28 May 2019 11: 56
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          trust the process engineer ...

          I quite believe it. Therefore, in different factories, a tank, for example, the T-34, sometimes cost very different money. For example, in 1942, the T-34 from plant No. 183 was estimated at 165 rubles, and from UZTM - at 810, in 273, at 800 and 1944, respectively. Different plants - different conditions. The same thing happened with the adversary. And therefore, the price of the Tiger walks from 140 DM to 996 in various sources. And then their estimated cost may differ from real costs in connection with the use of labor of prisoners in concentration camps.
      3. 0
        28 May 2019 10: 29
        Here Andrei compares the T-4, not the Tiger.
        The T-4 was a much simpler, more technologically advanced and cheaper tank than the Tiger.
        1. 0
          28 May 2019 12: 02
          Quote: Avior
          Here Andrei compares the T-4, not the Tiger.

          I scratched the bottom of the barrel and found this - "....." Tiger "was an expensive machine to manufacture (800 thousand marks versus 104 Pz IV), the manufacture of which required more than 000 thousand man-hours ... "In another it was prescribed that .... PzKpfw IV Ausf F300 - 2 DM (with weapons and radio)
          1. +1
            28 May 2019 12: 09
            about the price of the Tiger is hard to believe, to be honest. I read that 250-300 price.
            maybe Tiger-2 was more expensive because of the small series.
            Regarding the T-4, I read at the same time a little more than 100.
            According to Sherman, the price is about 40-50 thousand dollars.
            but all this is very desirable to see in the documents and taking into account all the nuances.
            and it is not easy to compare with Soviet prices, the ruble was not convertible, and the official and unofficial rates were very different.
            1. 0
              28 May 2019 12: 37
              Quote: Avior
              but all this is very desirable to see in the documents and taking into account all the nuances.

              Here it is sad. Archival documents are difficult to find, especially in nuances. Therefore, from time to time you have to be content with info like "grandmother and her friends saved up 163 rubles for their working life, bought a Yak-000 plane and presented it to a former kolkhoz groom who was drafted into the Air Force."
    6. BAI
      0
      28 May 2019 23: 05
      I had to read that the fire hazard of the T34 even exceeded the gasoline T60.

      The photo to illustrate this thesis was not chosen well. The fire was finished by a German photographer (the picture has already been discussed many times).
    7. 0
      29 May 2019 09: 52
      Quote: Avior
      The solarium burns perfectly.

      Big mistake. Diesel fuel vapor burns, but it categorically poorly evaporates. At the same time, it has high fluidity, penetrating into all possible cracks, joints, and loose joints. Hence the possibility of high fire hazard, in the event of high temperatures, providing evaporation of leaked fuel. With proper operation, diesel fuel works great as an element of additional protection. Enough to keep the tanks fully filled. That is why, cars had to go into battle with full main tanks (they were located in the hull).
      With gasoline, the situation is somewhat different. It quickly evaporates in the places of leakage, which is good, but if a shell hits even a full tank, it instantly leads to detonation.

      And yes, there were modifications of the T-34 (somewhere between 41-42 years) with an M17 gasoline engine (EMNP). With a capacity of about 500 hp. But as soon as the release of the required amount of B2 was adjusted, they refused the "lighter".
  17. +1
    27 May 2019 23: 18
    Andrey, you are confidently moving towards an excellent monograph!
    Perhaps there is something more substantial in the "closed sources", but they are also "closed" ...
    Very fundamental!
    1. 0
      28 May 2019 01: 31
      Thank you, dear PilotS37!
  18. -4
    28 May 2019 04: 47
    And what kind of T 34 arr 43 years does the author say? There were two types of T 34 with a "nut" turret and a 76 mm cannon and T 34-85 with an 85 mm cannon and a larger turret. According to the documents, it was called the T-34- 85 and not T 34 sample 43 years old.
    1. 0
      28 May 2019 07: 10
      Quote: Prim2
      And what kind of T 34 arr 43 years does the author say? There were only two types: the T 34 with a "nut" turret and a 76 mm cannon and T 34-85 with an 85 mm cannon and a larger turret.

      Well, if you could not figure it out on your own ...
      By the way, the T-34-85 was adopted on January 44-th
    2. +1
      28 May 2019 07: 40
      Not true. At first there was a cast tower T34-76 and then a "nut" appeared. Then the cast was abandoned due to the lower cost of the "nut". In addition, in 1943, the T34-76 gun became longer. Too lazy now to look how much longer.
      1. +1
        28 May 2019 12: 41
        Quote: Alexander Trebuntsev
        In addition, in 1943, the gun at the T34-76 became longer. Too lazy now to see how much longer.

        And can I ask not to be lazy and find it? Very interesting situation. By 1943, it was banned to independently amend the CBA. And if the barrel is lengthened, that is, somewhere in the document - for what and how much ... Very interested ...
        1. +1
          29 May 2019 07: 07
          I lied. Confused with the transition of the gun from L-11 to F-34. There was no increase in length in 1942. Sorry.
      2. 0
        28 May 2019 12: 58
        UZTM made a stamped tower, its armor resistance was higher ...
  19. +1
    28 May 2019 06: 15
    Regarding the reservation - EMNIP all "Panzers" had cemented armor up to 1944. In any case, when studying the broken ones near Kursk, our specialists noted this fact.
    So, the 30-mm German board was approximately equal in resistance to the Soviet 45-mm, if you do not take into account the slope.
    1. 0
      28 May 2019 07: 19
      Quote: Snakebyte
      Regarding the reservation - EMNIP all "Panzers" had cemented armor up to 1944.

      Strange, but the scientific research institute №48 from the main department of NKTP says something else. That homogeneous (non-cemented) armor was universally used and only some of the individual parts (the front of the tower and the hull) were made of cemented (report 42 g)
      Quote: Snakebyte
      So, the 30-mm German board was approximately equal in resistance to the Soviet 45-mm, if you do not take into account the slope.

      Practical shelling showed that the 30 mm armor of German medium tanks makes its way from the 45-mm of our gun at an angle of 45 with the 250 m.
      1. +1
        28 May 2019 09: 58
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Strange, but the scientific research institute №48 from the main department of NKTP says something else. That homogeneous (non-cemented) armor was universally used and only some of the individual parts (the front of the tower and the hull) were made of cemented (report 42 g)

        I remember, in a topic on the WOT forum, one of the historians wrote that almost all the wrecked German tanks in the Battle of Kursk had cemented armor. Perhaps it was a question of surface hardening, there is a slightly different manufacturing technology (in fact, the working burner heated the surface of the finished armor plate).
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Practical shelling showed that the 30 mm armor of German medium tanks makes its way from the 45-mm of our gun at an angle of 45 with the 250 m.

        And according to the passport - 40 mm at 500 m at 30 degrees to the normal, which is much more (in the normalized it turns out 46 mm at 500 m versus 42 mm at 250 m).
  20. +2
    28 May 2019 08: 12
    Andrey is great! Greetings from Tankomaster!
    1. 0
      28 May 2019 11: 36
      Thank you, Vyacheslav! hi drinks
  21. +2
    28 May 2019 10: 11
    The author just read out! Respect Respect! I look forward to continuing!
  22. +3
    28 May 2019 10: 17
    In 1943, the commander received the same, and MK-4 and PT4-7 possessed an increase, allowing him to better consider the threatened direction, to identify the target. For this, the German commander had to get out of the hatch, get binoculars ...


    Are you seriously? This can be argued, but not sitting in the commander's cupola T-34 :))

    How can you compare a surveillance device with 2,5-4 x magnification and standard army binoculars (Dienstglas or Henszoldt - Wehrmacht tank binoculars 10x50) with 10 times magnification?


    I somehow happened to evaluate the "convenience" of working with an observation device of the MK-100 type in a su-4 self-propelled gun in the conditions of a training ground (the commander's cupola on the su-100, like on the T-34-85, has the appropriate observation devices) - extremely inconvenient and it is stationary car, in motion to use it at times more inconvenient. Glass blocks are very cloudy - the quality of glass is disgusting by modern standards.

    Binoculars provide at times greater situational awareness.
    1. +1
      28 May 2019 11: 35
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      How can a surveillance device be compared with a 2,5-4 x multiple magnification and standard army binoculars?

      In fact, compared the MK-4 and the reticule slot laughing
      1. +2
        28 May 2019 11: 56
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        How can a surveillance device be compared with a 2,5-4 x multiple magnification and standard army binoculars?

        In fact, compared the MK-4 and the reticule slot laughing


        From your phrase, dear Andrei, it sounded as an advantage that our tankers did not protrude from the towers using observation devices, while the German tankers considered this a drawback (this is with Carius). A great tactical advantage is to use high magnification binoculars.
        From experience - in the crack you can see something at 60-100 m - it is enough to find a fighter with a bunch of grenades, in MK-4 a little further 150-200 m - a camouflaged anti-tank gun may not be noticed, the more "faustic" is 100 m , binoculars - albeit with a risk, it is possible to detect a disguised PTO in advance.
        I had to compare - in an excellent 14-fold version of Nikon civil binoculars with enlightened optics - without chromatic aberration - not like the Zeiss times of WWII, but in Chinese, cheap 10 times you can find objects of similar size.
        1. +3
          28 May 2019 13: 01
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          in 100 m, binoculars - albeit with risk,

          with 300m from a rifle you will get between the eyes in the parking lot ... request
          1. 0
            30 May 2019 12: 27
            Quote: ser56
            with 300m from a rifle you will get between the eyes in the parking lot ...


            At 300 m the front sight of a rifle will block the head of the target - do not fantasize about between the eyes.
            With a telescopic sight, not every experienced sniper will fall into binoculars or a slightly protruding head at the level of a commander’s hatch in conditions of military combat — believe the shooter with a discharge in shooting, one must try very hard.
            Moreover, binoculars for studying the battlefield from a distance greater than the effective distance of aimed fire.
            Typically, the commander studied the battlefield with a distance of 800-1500 m or more, if the terrain allowed, which allowed to open the positions of the artillery of the VET, but not the PTR, which were opened from 100-200 m, began to fire and from which the Panzerwaffe suffered greatly from the first half of the war.
            That is, it is unlikely that the tank commander would turn his head 300 meters from the attacked positions - that is, in the final attack.
            1. 0
              30 May 2019 12: 49
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              At 300 m rifle front sight

              the average deflection of the bullet from the Mosin rifle at 300 m is 6 cm ... we aim along the cut of the hatch ... hi
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              or slightly protruding head

              to look from binoculars you need to stick out to the level of the nose, you will not look into the sky? bully
              and this is noticeably more than 6cm ... see above .. hi
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              which allowed to open the position of artillery VET

              with 1500m to notice a gun camouflaged by a VET? bully
              1. +1
                30 May 2019 13: 25
                Quote: ser56
                the mean deflection of a bullet from a Mosin rifle at 300 m is 6 cm.

                One corner minute? Gross cartridge? Oh well.
              2. +1
                31 May 2019 10: 53
                Quote: ser56
                with 1500m to notice a gun camouflaged by a VET?


                10x binoculars - the probability is higher than in a panorama or prismatic device x2,5
                Quote: ser56
                to look from binoculars you need to stick out to the level of the nose, you will not look into the sky?
                and this is noticeably more than 6cm ... see above ..


                No one from 300 m without optics will fall into the 10 cm circle - therefore getting into half of the protruding head is speculation - accidental hits of 1/100 are possible - no more. Tank commanders are more likely to experience fragmentation wounds to the head.

                Quote: ser56
                the average deflection of the bullet from the Mosin rifle at 300 m is 6 cm ... we aim along the cut of the hatch ...

                Leave the theory - I fired 3-5 hundred rounds of ammunition of various types of weapons a week at a shooting range and at firing ranges, by the age of 13 I had the third insole category and victories in regional and city competitions - I collected 1.5 bullets at 10 m with an average of 50 cm 98 out of 100 results.

                In the army, one of the officers and I were the best riflemen in the regiment. At the firing range, he fired growth targets at 74 m from the AK-100 without aiming - offhand.
                The most interesting exercise - occupied and shot a path where the chest target was closed with a knoll and only the corner of the head stuck out - is a bit like the exercise, as with a head sticking out of the hatch. Since the ballistics of a particular weapon were familiar to me, it was not difficult to throw a hill and get into the head - but this is 100 m.
                From the open sight of a mosquito, getting into half of the head from 300 m is an accident even for a good shooter - the front sight completely covers the head and it is impossible to accurately take the sight, similarly to the CBT - in the body, between the eyes - this is the speculation of amateurs.

                For PSO-1 on SVD - yes, this is quite a feasible task for the training ground, if you make a couple of sighting shots.
                In the sight of the PU 3,5x22 of 1942 (I had such one time), it is quite possible, after some training - his reticles are thin sights, but that would be between the eyes! I’m definitely not Vasily Zaitsev :)
                Although if you practice in those years when I distinguished the lines below the bottom :)))
                1. +1
                  31 May 2019 11: 44
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  but it is 100 m.

                  but this is AK, not a mosquito ... bully
                  Quote: DimerVladimer
                  Leave the theory -

                  this is not a theory, this is NSD ... hi Weapons were checked by these criteria ...
                  1. 0
                    31 May 2019 12: 47
                    Quote: ser56
                    this is not a theory, this is NSD ... according to these criteria weapons were tested ...


                    And I had to practically shoot such exercises.
                    Both the mosin and SVT were in my hands, the civilized version of kar98 can be bought at the KO-98 m1 weapons store - ask the hunter to go shoot nature with the hunter.
                    Try to get into a soccer ball from 300 m from an open sight, and then into a blown up half - a fun activity for the whole day - a pack of cartridges for 100 at least.
                    1. +1
                      31 May 2019 13: 01
                      Quote: DimerVladimer
                      Try with an open sights

                      I understand that there will be no objection to the ballistics of a bullet?
                      Well, who shoots like that - they check in the dash ... hi
              3. 0
                13 June 2019 16: 55
                [quote] the average deviation of a bullet from a Mosin rifle at 300 m is 6 cm ... / quote]
                Oh, these storytellers ... Do you think the mean deviation is 6 cm in each direction from the STP (midpoint of hit)? That is, a circle of 12 cm by 300 meters? And you know that the angular minute at 100 meters is about 30 mm, that is, 12 cm by 300 m is less than one and a half angular minutes. Such accuracy could only be shown by sniper trunks specially selected from a huge pile, and then only by chance.
                1. 0
                  14 June 2019 13: 29
                  Quote: Mephody
                  Oh, these storytellers ..

                  if NSD is a children's fairy tale bully
          2. 0
            30 June 2019 20: 22
            My friend, at 700 in any eye like a squirrel!
        2. +1
          28 May 2019 18: 25
          Binoculars are good in conditions of relative calm, but not in the thick of battle, where bullets with fragments of clouds fly. The tank commander leaning out with binoculars from the hatch is a tidbit for the enemy infantry.
          By the way, our tank commanders also had binoculars.
          1. +1
            30 May 2019 12: 39
            Quote: Sergey Karasev
            Binoculars are good in conditions of relative calm, but not in the thick of battle, where bullets with fragments of clouds fly. The tank commander leaning out with binoculars from the hatch is a tidbit for the enemy infantry.
            By the way, our tank commanders also had binoculars.


            The binoculars are good at tactically studying the battlefield before an attack, in defining anti-tank missiles from a distance of 800-1500 m or more in the process of developing an attack - that is, you can reveal some of the forces even before entering the zone of effective destruction of anti-tank weapons.
            In addition, the commander’s tank is somewhat behind and has the ability to work with binoculars and quickly provide guidance to subordinate platoon tanks at firing points.

            What is the use of our commanders having binoculars? in addition to the fact that the battlefield was studied before the attack, there were practically no cases described that the commanders of Soviet tanks used binoculars during the attack, which is why there are a lot of cases of ambush or late opening of the anti-aircraft defense, which led to unjustified losses.
            1. +1
              30 May 2019 14: 36
              full of cases of ambush or late opening of the VET, which led to unjustified losses.

              Also described are many cases of the destruction of the commanders of German tanks, leaning out in the midst of an attack to assess the situation, including platoon and company commanders on command tanks
      2. +1
        28 May 2019 12: 01
        there is no cloudy glass in the target slit.
        although you wrote that by 1943 the quality of optics had reached the world level, I had to read another opinion.
        One of the claims is precisely the quality of the glass, especially during operation. sense from 3 times increase if the glass is cloudy?
        1. +1
          30 May 2019 12: 41
          Quote: Avior
          there is no cloudy glass in the target slit.


          Depending on the modification in T-34-85, the targeting slots are covered by glass blocks from small fragments, as in the Su-100 in these aircraft I sat inside and in place of the commander and in place of the gunner.
          1. 0
            31 May 2019 23: 49
            glass quality is the question.
            I read that the glass of the war years was severely lame in quality and the claimed characteristics did not really provide.
    2. +4
      29 May 2019 23: 59
      You forgot that due to losses among tank commanders, the Third Reich industry made stereo tubes for them to monitor the battlefield without raising your head from the commander’s hatch!
  23. 0
    28 May 2019 10: 27
    Quote: Avior
    Not only. this is a question for the selected specific pressure on the soil. the greater the pressure, the more stable the tank will be on a solid slope and the worse it will be on arable land. and vice versa.
    We need an optimum, some average value, which in each case is determined individually.

    Then what do these your words mean:
    "not only. it's also a question to the selected specific ground pressure. the more pressure, the more sustainable the tank will be on a solid slope and the worse it will be on arable land. and vice versa. we need an optimum, some average value, which is determined individually in each case. "
    What is meant by steep slope stability?
    1. 0
      28 May 2019 12: 01
      I kind of answered from above?
      1. 0
        28 May 2019 14: 53
        Quote: Avior
        I kind of answered from above?

        I didn’t use the Reply button and this post "skipped" from the thread, and I was late to delete it. Wrote the same, but in a thread)
  24. -2
    28 May 2019 15: 15
    Thus, at the beginning of 1943, the T-34 lost the status of a tank with anti-shell armor.

    According to the estimates of domestic experts, the T-34 lost this status back in 1940, moving to the class of light armor tanks, protected only from fragments, small arms fire, heavy machine guns and anti-tank rifles with a caliber of not more than 20-25 mm.
    ... A-34 tank with an armor thickness of 45 mm at close range cannot successfully fight with 37-47 mm anti-tank artillery, therefore it does not correspond to its intended purpose, caused by an insufficiently clear idea of ​​the state of modern anti-tank artillery and an insufficiently substantiated approach to resolve this issue.
    © engineer Koloev. "The state of tank armament and the need to create new classes of tanks." 1940 g.
  25. 0
    28 May 2019 16: 13
    Thank you Andrew for the excellent article.
    I read it in one breath and with great interest. I found answers to many questions.
    I look forward to continuing with interest!
    I wish you every success.
  26. 0
    28 May 2019 17: 10
    They were intended solely to protect against cumulative ammunition, and practically did not give an increase in armor resistance against other types of shells.

    Screen was not the best idea. The Soviet troops hit few cumulative shells. A 76 mm HE projectile could smash a 5 mm screen to smithereens and then it is already possible to use cumulative ammunition. In 1943, 45 mm and 76 mm armor-piercing ammunition pierced from a sufficiently large distance 30 mm side plus 5 mm screen, subcaliber 80 mm forehead plus screen. Ekran interfered with the crew and added all. In general, the flaws were more than good.
    A very weak spot of the German tank is 10 mm upper body parts. They were pierced by fragments of 76 mm HE shells, not to mention the direct hit of such a shell.
  27. +2
    28 May 2019 18: 49
    Emil Zeybold

    According to unverified data on the trophy tank T-34 during operation "Citadel" won 23 victory.
    His battle score of 69 tanks.
    It is only known that the unit in the motorized SS division "Reich", armed with T-34 tanks, was considered anti-tank. That is, the Germans did not go on the attack on T-34. The anti-tank tactics meant mostly shooting from a spot, from ambushes with the least risk for themselves and in many respects resembled the tactics used in 1941 by the Soviet tank ace D. Lavrinenko. With this use, the T-34 could act most efficiently. It will not be superfluous to add that all the T-34 divisions of the Reich were equipped with radio stations, stereo pipes, etc.
    1. BAI
      +2
      28 May 2019 23: 02
      Emil Zeybold

      And according to his own recollections, he wanted to fight on T-IV.
    2. +1
      29 May 2019 07: 30
      [/ quote] According to unverified data on the T-34 captured tank during the operation "Citadel" won 23 victories. [quote]

      Here is the proper use of turret self-propelled guns named T-34-76.
    3. +1
      29 May 2019 22: 52
      In one of the issues of the magazine Arsenal-Collection there was an article about the appearance in the "Reich" division of a tank company on captured T-34s.
  28. +2
    28 May 2019 18: 49
    Quote: Jura 27
    both had "cardboard" sides, and the extra 15mm of T-34 armor gave only extra weight

    both armies actively armed with anti-tank rifles
    They pierced T4 into the side and stern, but T34 - not.
    therefore, against the infantry without artillery, the t34 was much better protected
    1. -1
      28 May 2019 20: 12
      both armies actively armed with anti-tank rifles
      They pierced T4 into the side and stern, but T34 - not.
      therefore, against the infantry without artillery, the t34 was much better protected


      so exactly "+"!
      and we also take into account that 14,5 PTR is much more dangerous than 7,92 PTR
      and we also take into account that all sorts of 30-mm grenade launchers, which are much less accurate and long-range than 14,5 PTR
    2. 0
      29 May 2019 07: 32
      Quote: yehat
      Quote: Jura 27
      both had "cardboard" sides, and the extra 15mm of T-34 armor gave only extra weight

      both armies actively armed with anti-tank rifles
      They pierced T4 into the side and stern, but T34 - not.
      therefore, against the infantry without artillery, the t34 was much better protected

      No, there were screens on the "4th groove" to protect against PTR.
      1. +1
        29 May 2019 08: 44
        PTRD playfully pierces the board + screen
        keep in mind that wotan armor was placed only in the frontal elements (and that is not always and not everywhere and only in fat periods), and on the sides the Germans had regular armor, less resistant
        The sides were more or less strong only with the advent of tigers and panthers, and then the panthers with some assumption - they had part of the side armored in the same way as the T4 - very weak, and the rest - 60 mm vertically, which was not enough against artillery.
        1. 0
          29 May 2019 11: 30
          Not effortlessly, it all depends on the distance and angle of the meeting. The Germans considered screens to be quite effective protection against PTR.
          1. 0
            29 May 2019 11: 48
            armor penetration PTRD
            300m - 35mm
            100m - 40mm
            with a BS-41 bullet, the PTRD pierced A2 shermans even in the forehead at distances of 100-500m.
            T4h 30mm side armor + 5 mm shield
            it turns out that at a distance of 100m its board completely penetrated the PTRD even without special bullets, this is not counting the weak points of the chassis and others.
            screens of course reduced vulnerability, but did not exclude it.
            1. -1
              30 May 2019 04: 03
              Quote: yehat
              armor penetration PTRD
              300m - 35mm
              100m - 40mm
              with a BS-41 bullet, the PTRD pierced A2 shermans even in the forehead at distances of 100-500m.
              T4h 30mm side armor + 5 mm shield
              it turns out that at a distance of 100m its board completely penetrated the PTRD even without special bullets, this is not counting the weak points of the chassis and others.
              screens of course reduced vulnerability, but did not exclude it.

              This is at a right angle, and now imagine a real angle of 45 degrees to the screen and the armor, what will be the distance of armor penetration?
              1. 0
                30 May 2019 09: 05
                this is not a game tanks 3-4 shots and the hole will be
            2. 0
              30 May 2019 11: 45
              Quote: yehat
              with a BS-41 bullet, the PTRD pierced A2 shermans even in the forehead at distances of 100-500m.

              You are confused.
              Indeed, there was such a topic, but not the forehead, of course, but the side. There 38 mm of relatively soft American armor without an angle, just the limit for PTR.
              Quote: yehat
              PTRD playfully pierces the board + screen

              At the limit of armor penetration. Small angle, out of place hits - the tank is not affected.

              In addition, if it is possible to shoot at a tank from 100-300 meters, it means that the tank is not covered by either infantry or artillery.
              1. +1
                30 May 2019 12: 24
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                it means that the tank is not covered by infantry or artillery.

                Have you ever shot from 100 meters or at least aim?
                my vision allows me, without optics, to see the target through the front sight for half a kilometer,
                and most from 50 meters can’t get anywhere. In the German army, the attacking orders were armed with infantry with Mauser carbines (the machine gun was dragged into the attack, but still it was not very). And what kind of fire density do rifles create? Nothing! From about 50-70 meters, SMGs of different versions were already reaching - from captured PCA to mp40. 20-35 meters - grenades.
                therefore, from 100 meters there was often a lot of opportunities to respond to tanks, even accompanied by infantry, though for a long time it would not be possible to shoot from one place. In addition, the infantry very often succeeded in cutting off tanks from rifle fire.
                1. +1
                  30 May 2019 13: 31
                  And why did you write this?
                  A PTR can shoot at a tank until the tank sees it. Then the PTR gets a chance - not a guarantee.
                  1. +1
                    30 May 2019 14: 04
                    But what will the tank do when it sees?
                    ptrd is not a gun, it is not difficult to drag it and the tank will not stand and guard one single rifle, it has its own tasks
  29. +2
    28 May 2019 20: 15
    The driver mechanic received more convenient means of observation, consisting of two periscope devices. As for the radio operator shooter, he also received a “new thing”, diopter sight instead of optical, but it had almost no effect: this crew member as he was, and remained almost "blind."
    The only member of the Soviet crew who remained the losiest was the radio operator, although he had a diopter sight, his viewing angle was too small, and the 2 sighting slits of his German "colleague" provided a slightly better view.

    From the test report of the T-34 during November-December 1940 at the NIBTPolygon GABTU of the Red Army. :
    When firing from a machine gun of a radio operator, the dispersion value increases significantly and goes beyond the limits of normal data, and the number of holes decreases.
    Conclusion: the installation of weapons, optics and ammunition in the T-34 tank do not meet the requirements for modern combat vehicles.
    DT machine guns
    1. provide the ability to conduct separate firing from a machine gun coaxial with a gun;
    2. increase the visibility and accuracy of the radio operator’s machine gun by installing an optical sight;
    3. cover the outer part of the radio operator’s machine gun and the ball mount with a tight cover to protect against contamination.

    Optical sight PPU-8T for the machine gun arrow -
    The machine gunner (former radio operator shooter) located to his right from December 1944 received at his disposal an optical telescopic sight PPU-8T with a field of view of 25 °. As a result, such an assessment of the effectiveness of an exchange rate machine gun equipped with only a diopter sight, whose field of view was limited by an aperture in a ball mount, was 2-3 °: “The view through this hole above the barrel of the machine gun was limited, and the firing sector was even smaller. Sometimes you turn the machine gun, you see that someone is running, but you can’t shoot. ” Nevertheless, the machine guns were very useful in the years 1944-1945 to deal with the "Faustniki".

    It turns out that until DECEMBER 1944, course machine guns were equipped only with diopter sights!
  30. +1
    28 May 2019 20: 41
    Of course, the German transmission was more perfect and better. But the T-IVH, having a mass of 25,7 t, was driven by a gasoline engine with a power of 300 hp, that is, the specific power of the tank was 11,7 hp per ton. A T-34-76 mod. 1943 g. With a mass of 30,9 t had an 500-strong diesel engine, respectively, its specific power was 16,2 hp / t, that is, by this indicator it was more than 38% superior to its German "opponent".


    Find the power loss data in the transmission.
    1. +1
      28 May 2019 20: 49
      no need to search, Pz-IV generally crawled and so solely due to its more advanced transmission
      1. +2
        28 May 2019 20: 53
        Quote: prodi
        no need to search, Pz-IV generally crawled and so solely due to its more advanced transmission


        Quote: prodi
        no need to search, Pz-IV generally crawled and so solely due to its more advanced transmission


        So he crawled all WWII. Despite the low power engines and low displacement. Due to one transmission, this is also impossible.
        1. 0
          28 May 2019 21: 04
          well, in the first versions, he still somehow moved (respect to fans of gasoline)
          1. +1
            29 May 2019 15: 11
            Quote: prodi
            well, in the first versions, he still somehow moved (respect to fans of gasoline)


            And later modifications did not move?
            1. +1
              29 May 2019 17: 13
              Well, what did you want with the formal thrust-weight ratio in 11l.s. per ton? In addition, a diesel engine (especially primitive) works quite reliably, but gasoline with 12 pots, its electrics and 2 carburetors in severe operation shows its nameplate power only with novya
              1. 0
                30 May 2019 16: 39
                Quote: prodi
                Well, what did you want with the formal thrust-weight ratio in 11l.s. per ton? In addition, a diesel engine (especially primitive) works quite reliably, but gasoline with 12 pots, its electrics and 2 carburetors in severe operation shows its nameplate power only with novya


                I do not dispute the low power density of these particular German tank engines. However, these engines "went through" the entire war, and the Germans could not bring almost all of the numerous new developments in terms of tank engines of the new generation to mass production. There, only the developments of the Maybach company are worth something. If you want, I can give you a link.
                1. +1
                  30 May 2019 19: 55
                  Thank you, I am in general out to date.
                  And what's funny, the HL120TR (TRM) is a fairly advanced engine: 11l, overhead camshafts ... But it was barely suitable for a three, and the four was heavier and a half meter longer. It’s even funnier that our relative of their BMV VI - M17, about the same dimensions (although the displacement is larger) was quite suitable for both BT and T28 (and would suit PzIV), but they thought that it had too high torque for their gentle transmission, and then did not know how to make it go (which is only the diameter of the drive wheel!)
                  1. 0
                    30 May 2019 23: 39
                    Quote: prodi
                    Thank you, I am in general out to date.
                    And what's funny, the HL120TR (TRM) is a fairly advanced engine: 11l, overhead camshafts ... But it was barely suitable for a three, and the four was heavier and a half meter longer. It’s even funnier that our relative of their BMV VI - M17, about the same dimensions (although the displacement is larger) was quite suitable for both BT and T28 (and would suit PzIV), but they thought that it had too high torque for their gentle transmission, and then did not know how to make it go (which is only the diameter of the drive wheel!)


                    Thank you, I am in general out to date.


                    Here for more details:

                    http://alternathistory.com/razrabotka-tankovih-dvigatelei-firmy-maybach-v-1930-1940-e-gody/

                    It’s even funnier that our relative of their BMV VI is M17, about the same dimensions (although the displacement is larger)


                    With a difference in working volume in 4 times?
                    1. 0
                      31 May 2019 08: 16
                      Well, after all, with the (obsolete) M17 they also shot 680 hp.
                      Although it is possible, in their motivation for HL120 there was also a desire to reduce fuel consumption
              2. 0
                4 December 2019 14: 49
                in the sense of primitive? same V12. A diesel engine, by definition, cannot be a sophisticated carburetor ....
                Dizelization of the Spanish-Suiz Y12, by Louis Cotalenom.
                The biggest mistake ... because of this, half of the tanks were at the beginning of the war
  31. +1
    29 May 2019 11: 06
    Andrew, thank you very much for the entire series and article! Great job!
    Another comparison is the T-34 sample 41 and 43 years. I would add the fact of including radio stations in almost every car. This greatly improved the interaction of units on the battlefield. And at 41 the radio station was only in a command vehicle, which cost us not a small loss.

    We look forward to continuing.
  32. +1
    29 May 2019 18: 34
    The author has done a great job. Accurately and correctly, comprehensively compared both tanks. Great! Accept my reader's gratitude!
  33. 0
    29 May 2019 23: 55

    So, according to Ilya Borisovich Moshchansky, the fighting life of the T-34 tank began!
  34. 0
    30 May 2019 00: 00

    And so the fighting life of the T-34-76 continued.
  35. +1
    30 May 2019 11: 32
    Quote: Jura 27
    Quote: yehat
    armor penetration PTRD
    300m - 35mm
    100m - 40mm
    with a BS-41 bullet, the PTRD pierced A2 shermans even in the forehead at distances of 100-500m.
    T4h 30mm side armor + 5 mm shield
    it turns out that at a distance of 100m its board completely penetrated the PTRD even without special bullets, this is not counting the weak points of the chassis and others.
    screens of course reduced vulnerability, but did not exclude it.

    This is at a right angle, and now imagine a real angle of 45 degrees to the screen and the armor, what will be the distance of armor penetration?

    Real coal in battle is likely an average of 20-30 degrees. No one will shoot under more than 30 degrees. If the side at a large angle will shoot at a vulnerable spot in the forehead (gun, embrasure, chassis).
    In addition, a 30 mm + 5 mm screen for an armor-piercing projectile is less than 35 mm monolithic. The screen can normalize the trajectory of the projectile to the main armor.
  36. +1
    30 May 2019 22: 03
    Quote: Jura 27
    Quote: Astra wild
    Yura, you cling to Andrey as usual
    Obviously not indifferent to him

    If you, a girl, write a post with many blunders on a topic that interests me, then I will become partial to you. love

    Unfortunately, I am no longer a girl. This is firstly, and secondly, let me know: what topic are you interested in? _Maybe I’ll write
    1. 0
      31 May 2019 07: 09
      A girl is a compliment that is almost independent of age.
      Topics: Navy, tanks, PTO guns and aviation in the period 1890-1945.
      1. 0
        31 May 2019 13: 19
        In that case, thanks for the compliment
      2. 0
        3 June 2019 22: 27
        Yura, I know you a lot less, but I always believed that the first plane in the world was the Wright brothers, and he made a flight in 1903. There were hot air balloons during the French Revolution. In a novel I read about them.
        Somewhere I saw a picture: Mozhaisky’s plane, but I HAVE NOT ANYWHERE heard him take off before Wright and in Google they talk about Wright's plane. Where does the figure 1890 come from?
  37. 0
    4 June 2019 22: 00


    Thus, at the beginning of the 1943, the T-34 lost the status of a tank with an anti-bullet reservation. What did our designers do?
  38. -1
    27 June 2019 10: 25
    Quote: Jura 27
    "Four" for the longest time, was the best medium tank of the WWII.

    Did you come up with this yourself or can you refer to someone? From what I knew before the current time, the TIV tank is very good, but no one ever considered it the best. Even for a short time.
  39. 0
    13 July 2019 14: 35
    Maybe the author will explain to me that such a cardinal change in the tank t34 arr 43 compared to the samples 40, 41 and 42 years that the mass of the tank increased from 26 tons to almost 31 tons, like there was no increase in booking, but due to what it happened? with t34-85 it’s clear there is another tower with a more powerful gun, but on t34 arr 43 years everything seems to be identical with its predecessors
  40. 0
    7 August 2019 14: 40
    "Alas, a large number of fans of military history reason about this: the T-IVH had armor thickness of up to 80 mm, while the T-34 had only 45 mm, the T-IVH had a long-barreled and much more powerful 75-mm cannon than Soviet F-34 - so what else to talk about? And if you still remember the quality of shells and armor, then it is quite obvious that the T-34 lost in all respects to the brainchild of the "gloomy Teutonic genius."

    The devil, however, is known to be in the details. "





    So Dear author, here everything is clear to the student, if three T-34s against one Pazik, then yes ........ provided that two will be baits, and one will sand a couple of shells into the side or in the MTO, but if this is a "cavalry attack" - do not blow off the heads of the thirty-fours, in the truest sense of the word ...
  41. 0
    7 August 2019 14: 41
    Alas, a large number of military history buffs argue in a similar vein: the T-IVH's armor thickness reached 80 mm, and the T-34 had all 45 mm, the T-IVH had a long-barreled and much more powerful 75-mm gun than the Soviet F-34 - so what else is there to talk about? And if you still remember the quality of the shells and armor, then it is quite obvious that T-34 lost in all its articles to the brainchild of the “gloomy Teutonic genius”.

    However, the devil, as you know, is in the details.






    So Dear author, here everything is clear to the student, if three T-34s against one Pazik, then yes ........ provided that two will be baits, and one will sand a couple of shells into the side or in the MTO, but if this is a "cavalry attack" - do not blow off the heads of the thirty-fours, in the truest sense of the word ...