Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers. Design refinement

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First, let's work on the errors of the previous article. In it, the author argued that before the war the USSR mastered the production of turning and rotary machines capable of processing tank shoulder straps of large diameter, while the first machines with a faceplate diameter of 2 mm were produced in 000.

Alas, this is (at least partially) a false statement. Unfortunately, story The machine tool industry of the USSR is not very well covered here, and it is extremely difficult to find the appropriate literature. The author of this article finally managed to get a very thorough work of Aizenstadt, LA and Chikhacheva S.A. under the title "Essays on the history of the machine tool industry of the USSR" (Mashgiz, 1957 g.). According to the data of Eisenstadt, LA and Chikhacheva S.A. the first single-rack turning and rotary machine with a faceplate diameter of 800 mm was released at the Sedin factory (Krasnodar) in 1935. Apparently, this is a 152 machine, although this, unfortunately, is not accurate - the authors of Essays, unfortunately did not specify the names of turning and rotary lathes, produced before the war. At the same time, as follows from a comparison of the “Essays” with the data on the plant’s history posted on its official website, despite the production of the first sample in 1935, the 152 machine was accepted by the state commission with a “useable” resolution only in 1937.



As for other models of turning-and-boring lathes, Essays report that 1940 machine models were also produced in 2: one-rack with 1 450 mm faceplate diameter and a two-rack with 2 000 mm face plate. Unfortunately, it is completely unclear whether it is about experimental production, or serial production.

Although this does not apply to the topic under discussion, it is interesting that at the plant. Sedin in 1941 g was completed the production of a giant turning and rotary lathe 520 t with a diameter of the faceplate 9 m - assembled this machine plant them. Sverdlov in Leningrad.

Returning to the tank theme, we note that two very important issues remain undisclosed. Firstly, unfortunately, the author was not able to find out whether serial production of turning-and-boring lathes with a faceplate diameter of 2 000 mm was set up before the start of the war and during it in the USSR, and if that was done, how many machine tools were produced in the prewar and war years. As you know, the plant them. Sedin was in the occupied territory in the period from August 9 1942 to February 12 1943, but before the retreat the Germans almost completely destroyed the plant. But what can it tell us? Some number of machines on it could have been done before the plant was “captured,” besides, the equipment needed for the production of machines could be removed during the evacuation, and then the production of turning-and-boring lathes could have been set up somewhere still. On the other hand, the author of this article did not find any mention of this. Here and Eisenstadt LA and Chikhachev S.A. about the military production of turning and turning machines do not say anything. But at the same time, respected authors write that during the Great Patriotic War, the machine tool industry of the USSR mastered the production of a large number of machine tools of new designs, cite many examples, but directly indicate that it is absolutely impossible to list them all at least in some detail. Maybe the issue of turning-and-boring lathes was beyond the scope of their work?

The second question is: unfortunately, it remains unknown whether it was possible to start production of tank shoulder straps on these machines, since many dear readers, as rightly noted in the comments to the previous article, the fact that the diameter of the face plate is larger than the diameter of the shoulder strap does not guarantee such a possibility.

The fact is that the diameter of the tank shoulder strap is one thing, but the dimensions of the part that you want to lay on the faceplate in order to process the tank shoulder strap is completely different. Nevertheless, the second question, apparently, can be answered in the affirmative, because it should not be considered that for the processing of a tank shoulder strap it was necessary to perch up an entire tower on a turning-and-boring lathe. After all, the tower epaulet was one of its details, and, as can be seen in the photo of those years, was processed separately from the tower. So, for example, on the earlier photograph of the turning-and-boring lathe.

Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers. Design refinement


Just captured the procedure for processing tank shoulder strap for T-34 at the plant number 183 in 1942 g. Another photo.



Demonstrates the procedure of cutting the turret's teeth at the same plant No. XXUMX in the same 183, but, of course, already on a machine of a different type. As we can see in both photos, the size of the machined parts is much smaller than the T-1942 tower and, perhaps, it is quite close to the diameter of the shoulder strap.

Accordingly, the question of whether turning-and-boring mills suitable for machining wide shoulder straps of T-34М and T-34-85 towers were produced before the war in the USSR remain controversial. But the fact that even before the beginning of World War II our factories had a large fleet of such machines with a large faceplate diameter is beyond doubt, since the other considerations expressed by the author in the previous article remain valid. Of course, we needed machines for the production of locomotive wheels, excavators and other equipment, and, if they were not Soviet-made, then, obviously, we acquired them abroad. Recall also the letter of Lieutenant Colonel I.Panov, who reported in 1940 that Plant No. 183 has a sufficient machine park for the production of tanks with an expanded shoulder strap. Recall that the applications for 1941 for the purchase of imported equipment of the plants No. 183 and 75, as well as the FCZ did not contain turning-and-boring lathes. And this despite the fact that Plant No. 183 was supposed to start producing T-34М with a wide shoulder strap in 1941, and STZ was required to be ready to launch T-34 into the series starting on 1 in January of 1942. Recall that T-34-85 started at our plants before lend-lease machines were supposed to do, etc. And, of course, for the production of 250 tanks IS-2 per month, plant No. 200 needed 7 of turning-and-boring lathes with a large face plate diameter, and how many were needed for plant No. XXUMX, which produced T-183-750 per month to 34? Could his needs be met by several machines that we received through lend-lease?

And if you still remember that, to date, no one has presented to the general public data on the volumes of supplies of turning and rotary machines for Lend-Lease, it turns out quite interesting. We know that the USSR was going to order such machines abroad for the 1944 production program, but we don’t know if they were ordered, and if so, whether they were delivered, when and in what quantity. Similarly, it is not known whether such machines were supplied under Lend-Lease earlier, or through other channels: During the war years, the USSR purchased products that were not included in the lists of allowed under Lend-Lease, that is, as part of the usual sales transactions.

Finish the topic with turning-boring machines and move on to the features of the production of T-34 in 1941-42.

So, as we said earlier, at the time of putting into production, the T-34 project contained a number of flaws, the main ones to be considered as insufficient crew size, poor visibility from the tank and significant transmission deficiencies. In addition, the tank suffered a fair amount of "childhood diseases" that could be quite easily eliminated by the results of trial operation. And, as if this was not enough, the plants where it was planned to expand the production of T-34, previously did not produce medium tanks, as the light tanks were made at the plant number XXUMX, and no tanks were produced at the STZ in general before.

The disadvantages of the T-34 were well recognized by our management, however, it was decided to send the tank into mass production. For such a solution, 2 root causes are reviewed. The first of these was that even in its current form, the T-34 was clearly superior to the light tanks BT-7 in its fighting qualities, not to mention any T-26 and so on. The second is that it was impossible to organize the production of such a new and complex machine, which was the T-34, for plants No. XXUMX and STZ in a single moment, it was necessary to build an efficient production chain within the enterprises and no less effective interaction with counterparties-suppliers.

And so it was decided to produce the T-34 in its current form, but at the same time to develop an improved, modernized design of the tank, which would be free from the known design flaws. The design of this tank is known as the T-34M - here both the commander's turret, and five crew members, and a tower with a wide shoulder strap, and a new transmission ... At the same time, the T-34М was to go into mass production as early as 1941 and, gradually, push out T-34 sample 1940 g.

Obviously, such a solution made it possible to kill not even two, but several birds with one stone. On the one hand, medium tanks with an 76,2-mm cannon and anti-missile booking immediately began to enter the Red Army. The troops began to master a new, unfamiliar technique. Plants - to work out the production processes and the effectiveness of the chains of their suppliers. The price for this was that the T-34 was delivered to the troops with already known, but not eliminated, flaws. Of course, it would be possible to take a different path and postpone the release of the T-34 until all its flaws are resolved, but, apparently, the leadership of the Red Army rightly believed that it was better to have an imperfect tank in the army than not to have a good . And besides, as soon as the T-34М project and its aggregates are ready, the domestic industry would be as ready as possible for its mass production.



Thus, we see that the production of “raw” still T-34 before the war has quite reasonable explanations. But then another question arises. With the approach described above, the rejection of some serious modernization of the T-34 arr. 1940 G. - it did not make sense, since as early as 1941 it had to go to the T-34M series. But the war began, the new diesel engine for the T-34M was never ready, and it became clear that no Thirty-Fours-em would go to the troops. Then why the first changes for the better are the new checkpoint, the commander's cupola, etc. appeared on serial T-34 only in 1943? What prevented to do it before?

Very often in the descriptions of T-34, the simplicity of the tank design is noted, thanks to which it was possible to adjust its mass production in the belligerent USSR. This is certainly correct, but it should be noted that this “thirty-four” virtue was not at all gained right away. Of course, the creators of the tank, M.I. Koshkin and A.A. Morozov, put a lot of effort in order to achieve an outstanding result, without resorting to complex technical solutions. But nevertheless the T-34 design as of 1940 was very difficult for our factories where it was supposed to be manufactured, especially in wartime. So, for example, “History of tank building at the Ural tank plant No. XXUMX them. Stalin "indicates that" The design of the armor details ... was carried out without taking into account technological capabilities, as a result of which such parts were designed ... whose production in series production would be impossible ... ". At the same time, unfortunately, initially "... the production technology was designed for the presence of skilled workers who can produce complex mechanical parts of the tank using universal equipment in small batches, and the quality of processing depended on the worker's qualifications."

Simply put, the designers created a promising tank project, but it soon became clear that its design was far from optimal for production on the equipment available at plant No. XXUMX, or it required highly qualified personnel that the enterprise lacked or did not have at all. In some other processes, the plant could have enough equipment and qualified personnel, but for relatively small volumes of mass production, and the tank was supposed to be truly massive. Accordingly, it was necessary to find a compromise - somewhere to change the design of the machine or its individual parts, and somewhere - to purchase and install new machines, change the production technology.

This is easy to talk about when it comes to one enterprise, but in some cases such design changes concerned not only the plant where the final assembly of tanks is carried out, but also its subcontractors. And now we also recall that the T-34 manufacturing plant was far from being one, and, naturally, the machine park and the skills of the workers for them differed significantly.

“What did you think about before the war?” The dear reader will ask, and, of course, he will be right. But let us remember that the production volumes for 1941 were not at all amazing: 1 800 tanks for plant No.183 and 1 000 tanks for STZ. These are only 150 and 84 machines average monthly. Under this production program, the management of enterprises determined the need for an additional machine park, frames, etc. At the same time, with the beginning of the war, it was necessary to increase production volumes by several times, which, obviously, the machine park and the personnel structure of the FCZ and Plant No. XXUMX were not fully calculated.

And we are talking only about those plants where it was planned to produce T-34 before the war, and, accordingly, various preparatory activities were carried out. But let's not forget that during the 1941-42 years. T-34 production was mastered at 4 plants: №№112; 174, as well as UZTM and CHKZ.

Before the war, the leader in T-34 production was definitely Plant No. 183, for example, for the first 6 months of 1941, 836 tanks were produced on it, while on STZ, only 294. In June, 1941 Plant No. 183 released 209 machines, and STZ only 93. But the plant №183 was located in Ukraine, in Kharkov, and, of course, it urgently needed to be evacuated (to Nizhny Tagil), which was done in the period September - October 1941. It is clear that such a "relocation", and even such a short time would be extremely difficult, even in peacetime, but in the military it was a real labor feat. And, with all this in mind, it was necessary to somehow manage to increase production volumes in December ... In December 1941 Plant No. 183 produced all 25 tanks, in March 1942 - already 225, surpassing any monthly release of pre-war time , and in April - 380 machines, which by 42,8% exceeded the best release in Kharkov (266 tanks in August 1941).

As for the FCZ, it, unlike the Kharkov plant, did not relocate anywhere, but there were plenty of problems on it without evacuation. The front "rolled up" closer and closer, a significant part of the subcontractors stopped working, or no longer had the opportunity to supply parts and components on the FCZ. Thus, the plant had to master an increasing number of productions directly at home, and at the same time - to increase production rates ... what STZ did and did - the production of T-34 on it lasted until the battles started on the territory of the plant itself (and even a little Togo).


A convoy of tanks produced by STZ at the plant before being sent to the front


As for the rest of the plants, they were faced with no less a titanic task — they had to master the production of a completely new technology for them in wartime. Plant No.112 launched serial production in September of 1941, the other three plants mentioned above - in June - September of 1942.

So, it is absolutely obvious that in such conditions all efforts should be focused precisely on bringing the T-34 design to a level that would allow organizing its mass production, and not delaying this production by additional complication of its design. Therefore, starting at least since the winter of 1941 (and in fact - even earlier), the designers and technologists of plant No. 183 concentrated on working in the following areas:

1. The maximum possible reduction of parts of secondary importance in the tank, the exclusion of which should not reduce the technical and combat qualities of the machine.

2. Reduction of normal parts used on the tank, both in quantity and in frame sizes.

3. Reduction on the details of the places to be machined, with a simultaneous revision of the degree of purity of the processed parts.

4. The transition to the manufacture of parts by cold forming and casting instead of hot stamping and forging used.

5. Reduction of the nomenclature of parts requiring heat treatment, various types of anti-corrosion and decorative coatings or special surface treatment.

6. Reduction of components and parts obtained in the order of cooperation from the outside.

7. Reduction of the range of brands and profiles of materials used for the manufacture of the tank.

8. Translation of parts manufactured from scarce materials to manufacture from substitute materials.

9. Expansion, where it is allowed under the terms of the work, permissible deviations from the technical conditions.

So, in 1941 - 1942's. In these areas, amazing results have been achieved. As of January 1942, changes were made to the 770 part drawings, and 1 265 part names were completely abandoned. It seems to be a fantastic figure, but for 1942, we managed to exclude 34 4 details from the T-972 design!

But one simplification or the exception of details, of course, was not enough. Changed and technological processes. For example, by the end of 1941 g, it was possible to abandon the machining of the welded edges of the armor details. This led to the fact that the complexity of manufacturing one set has decreased from 280 to 62 machine-hours, the number of finishing jobs doubled, and the number of regular rolls doubled.

Of course, the simplification of technology was a double-edged sword. On the one hand, the production was simplified and cheapened, but on the other hand, unfortunately, the quality fell: for example, the refusal of machining made high demands on the quality of the weld of armor details, etc. However, domestic designers and technologists perfectly understood these interrelations, trying to compensate for the simplifications in the T-34 design with the latest technologies, such as the introduction of automatic welding, which was tested before the war, but was massively introduced during the fighting. Or, for example, such as rolled dimensional strips equal in width to finished parts. Often, the use of such technologies not only compensated for the simplification of the design, but also in itself brought considerable savings. For example, automatic welding significantly reduced the requirements for the qualifications of workers and their labor costs, and rolled dimensional strips reduced labor costs for parts obtained from them by 36%, reduced the consumption of armored steel by 15%, and also reduced the consumption of compressed air by 15 thousand cubic meters. m. on 1 000 packages. Of course, by drastically simplifying the design and technology of the thirty-four, it was possible to drastically reduce its cost, for example, the T-34-76 production of the plant # XXUMX cost:

1939 year of release - 596 373 rub .;

1940 year of release - 429 256 rub .;

1941 year of release - 249 256 rub .;

And finally, 1942 year of release - 165 810 rub.

Alas, in all likelihood, it was not always possible to combine simplifications and compensating technologies in time, and it should be assumed that individual batches of T-34, released during that period, could be much more vulnerable than “standard” tanks arr. 1940, produced before any simplifications.

Of course, in 1941-42. The USSR managed to solve the problem of explosive growth in the production of T-34. In the 1941 g T-34, 3 016 machines were produced, in 1942 g - 12 535 machines. The maximum monthly production of this type of tanks in 1941 was reached in May and was 421 machine / month. And in 1942, the minimum output per month was higher and amounted to 464 tank (in January). In December, 1942 was able to bring it to 1 568 machines already!

At the same time, historians rightly say that it is extremely difficult to somehow distribute this stream among tank modifications. Here the Germans everything was simple - a tank of some kind of design is being produced, and let it be to myself. Then they figured out how to improve it, introduced changes - they added a small letter to the name of the tank, and that's a modification. They invented new improvements - they marked the improved car with the next letter, etc. In the USSR, with the T-34 was not the case. The fact is that the constant changes in the design and technology, as well as the adaptation of the tank design to the capabilities of each particular plant led to the fact that T-34 of the same production time, but different plants or different batches of the same plant were often not identical machines. . Much depended on the technologies that a particular plant has mastered, so, in 1942, the T-34 plant No. XXUMX cost, as mentioned above, 183 165 rubles, but T-810, produced at the “neighboring” UZTM (Chelyabinsk) - 34 273 rub.

In other words, about the thirty-three 1941-42. It’s possible to speak of the release not as a single T-34 tank of various modifications, but about the whole family of tanks, about the same performance characteristics, but with significant differences in design, constantly adapted to the equally constantly changing manufacturing technology at different plants.

Was it possible to introduce any changes into the design of the T-34 tank? Probably, it is possible, but such changes would necessarily cause a decrease in output - it would take time to master them. Could we afford to reduce the production of T-34? Recall that in 1942 we produced (without SAU) 24 448 tanks, including:

KV of all modifications - 2 553 pcs. (10,4% of total release);

T-34-76 - 12 535 (51,3%);

T-60 - 4 477 (18,3%);

T-70 - 4 883 (20%).

As you know, even before the start of the Great Patriotic War, the leadership of the Red Army and the country was well aware that tanks with anti-bullet armor were absolutely outdated, and if they were suitable for something else, then only to perform some auxiliary functions. However, in 1942 g 38,3,% of all tanks produced were light T-60 and T-70 with their 15-mm sides, two-man crew and 20-mm and 45-mm guns, respectively.


T-60


Such a stream is explained very simply - the Red Army absolutely lacked tanks, and any, even the poorest, tank is much better than its absence. But as a result, our army was forced to use T-60 and T-70 as, if one may say so, the main battle tanks, although of course such a concept did not exist in those years. Of course, the results of the fact that at that time the entire range of tasks confronting the tank forces of those times was forced to be assigned to extremely light losses for the armored vehicles themselves and its crews.

Was it possible at this time to reduce the release of the T-34, which at that time (1941-42) still retained the title of a tank with a counter-booking?

Often in the comments to this or that publication one has to read that, they say, the mass production of non-modernized T-34, moreover, and often not of the best quality, “excellent” characterizes the cannibal nature of the then USSR leadership and, of course, personally of Comrade Stalin. But if the production workers had attended to the new checkpoint and commander's turret in time, the losses in the T-34 crews would have been much less than it actually happened.

Of course, the loss among the tankers would then be less. But the tanks in the army would be less. And who will be able to count how many arrows, machine-gunners, artillerymen and other warriors would additionally have fallen into the land without the support of tanks as a result of reducing their output from what was actually achieved?

The arithmetic is, in fact, dreadful. And hard-to-predict even now, for us, people, in the fullness of the after-knowledge, analyzing the events of those bloody days. And to decide what is right and what is not, in those years ... Perhaps, of course, the management did not quite optimally. Perhaps, the introduction of the same commanding turrets would not so much slow down the release, who knows? Here we need to analyze the changes in labor intensity, as well as the capabilities of the machine park of each plant ... all this is far beyond the knowledge of the author of this article. But there is no doubt about one thing - a bet on the all-out expansion of the production of T-34, which was made in the most difficult conditions of 1941-42. and only then, after the 5 manufacturing plants reached their design capacity, does the T-34 upgrade look like a reasonable alternative to any other solution that could then be made.

To be continued ...
275 comments
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  1. +21
    12 March 2019 05: 47
    The cycle is excellent, dear Andrey, that would be similar for BT and T-26. I remember our head teacher, he was on fire in a tank near Moscow in 41. Then, in "stagnation", only the T-34 was heard. I ask him once, did you burn in the T-34? He (unexpectedly for me) replies, no, there weren't many of them in the troops, I, he says, fought on the T-26, so there were a lot of them.
    1. +4
      12 March 2019 08: 34
      Once again about the TCS machines. The epaulette rings, indeed, could be processed on a TKS with a dia. p / w two or less meters. BUT, the tower required a TKS with a much larger diameter. p / w, at least 2,5m (or 100 ") for the T-34-76, because it processed a place for the upper ring of the shoulder strap. That is, steered the radius of the turret sweeping. For the T-34M, which was intended for series, due to the design features of the tower, dia.p / w TKS, was the same as for the T-34-76.

      The T-34-76, in fact, was very difficult to manufacture, especially for the hull, turret (welded), and diesel. Throughout the war, everything that was possible and impossible was simplified, however, the hull and motor remained very difficult to manufacture.

      A reasonable alternative, in fact, was the production of the T-34M where the T-34-76 had not yet been produced, to such factories, no matter which tank to make from scratch. If, of course, we use 60mm thick armor, then the production of tanks will decrease by 30 percent, but the losses of the T-50M will decrease by 34 percent, compared to the T-34-76, until the massive arrival of the RAK 40 by the enemy troops. And even after, no losses "blind" tanks will be significantly less losses of turret ACS named T-34-76. But everyone was responsible for the shaft, so they drove him, and they laid down the losses with the device.

      The T-34M, which was preparing for the series, did not have either a new engine or a new transmission, the MTO was almost completely borrowed from the T-34-76, with an improvement in the design of the GF.
      1. +9
        12 March 2019 09: 28
        Quote: Jura 27
        BUT, the tower required a TKS with a much larger diameter. p / w, at least 2,5m (or 100 ") for T-34-76, because it processed a place for the upper ring of the shoulder strap.

        Yura, and who said that this upper shoulder strap cannot be done separately, and then just welded into the tower?
        1. +2
          12 March 2019 10: 06
          especially. what is it at least. more technologically advanced. mercy for the cycle hi
          1. -4
            12 March 2019 13: 04
            Quote: novel xnumx
            especially. what is it at least. more technologically advanced. mercy for the cycle hi

            More technologically advanced, generally weld the tower to the body wassat
        2. +6
          12 March 2019 12: 09
          And he is already done separately, like the supporting sheet, which is welded. But the place under it needs to be processed.
        3. +3
          12 March 2019 13: 01
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Quote: Jura 27
          BUT, the tower required a TKS with a much larger diameter. p / w, at least 2,5m (or 100 ") for T-34-76, because it processed a place for the upper ring of the shoulder strap.

          Yura, and who said that this upper shoulder strap cannot be done separately, and then just welded into the tower?

          So ring shoulder straps and did separately, on TCS with a relatively small dia. n / w (you brought the same photo).
          But here it’s impossible to weld it into the tower, the upper shoulder ring cannot be driven, it will lead when welding, and the cage of the angular contact bearing, the thing is quite high-precision. Therefore, they screwed on bolts, but not anyway where the holes were drilled, but in a specially machined place TKS with a diameter of half-diameter equal to or greater than two radii of sweeping the tower. And this operation was also quite high-precision, not in vain, all the machines with a diameter. n / a more, say, 2m, were in the USSR of that time, exclusively imported.
          1. 0
            12 March 2019 18: 36
            Quote: Jura 27
            So ring shoulder straps and did separately, on TCS with a relatively small dia. n / w (you brought the same photo).

            Ok, there is a consensus
            Quote: Jura 27
            Only here it is impossible to weld in the tower, the upper ring of the shoulder strap, when welding it will lead, and the holder of the angular contact bearing, a piece of rather high-precision.

            Understand. What you say is reasonable and logical. But let's look at the details of the T-34 tower
            The layout of the details of the tower "Tank T-34 №1»



            34.30.001-front sheet; 34.30.006 - front obichayka; 34.30.007-rear obichayka; 34.30.008 - front roof sheet; 34.30.009 - the bottom of the niche; 34.30.010- manhole cover; 34.30.011 niche door; 34.30.012 - middle right roof sheet; 34.30.013 - middle left roof sheet; 34.30.014-signal flap cap; 34.30.015 - ventilation hatch collar; 34.30.017 - rear roof sheet; 34.30.018 - right sheet; 34.30.019 - left sheet; 34.30.051 - the base of the viewing device; 34.30.063, 34.30.064 - hinge flap signal hatch; 34.30.079 - a cap of an opening for firing from a revolver; 34.30.117- ventilation hatch cap; 34.30.131, 34.30.132 - hatch cover hinges; 34.30.138 - bracket; 34.30.166 - a roof of a cap of the device of the circular review; 34.30.179 is the base of the circular view cap.

            That is, as far as I understand, it was possible to make a semi-finished product (back + front ochichayki) and make it on TKS epaulettes, and then on the semi-finished product to weld the other parts of the tower, which will not directly interact with the epaulette.
            Yura, I do not insist on being right, in these matters I am incompetent, but as for me it turns out logical
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. +1
              13 March 2019 04: 11
              [/ quote] That is, as I understand it, it was possible to make a semi-finished product (rear + front obichaques) and make shoulder straps on the TKS, and then weld the remaining tower parts onto the semi-finished product, which will not directly interact with the shoulder strap.
              Yura, I do not insist on my innocence, in these matters I am not competent, but as for me - it turns out logically [quote]

              It would be logical if it were not for the absence of one detail in the drawing, which is visible only in a section, is a horizontal sheet (the base of the tower), to which the upper shoulder strap is screwed. So, this horiz. the sheet is welded to the braids and processed together with the tower, so that later, the upper shoulder ring could be screwed to it.

              In addition, if you weld vertical sheets of the tower on the sidewalks with the upper shoulder ring attached, the wings will again result from welding (together with the attached shoulder ring).
          2. +3
            13 March 2019 09: 55
            Will you allow me to ask you the same question here? For me, say, a person who is far from "tank building")), the body movements that you described when making the tower are partly understandable. In the part that, in addition to the shoulder strap, it is also necessary to process the seat for it with sufficient accuracy. But after all, the same seat must be processed in the same way on the case ... So what? I have never seen a photo with a tank hull on a plan-washer .... How exactly the same problem is solved on a tank hull?
            1. 0
              13 March 2019 16: 41
              [/ quote] And you let me ask you the same question here? [quote]


              I do not know (the case of course did not twist). There are three options for not twisting the case.
              1. Make the top sheet of segments (viewed on the RI drawings), because high precision is not required, i.e. you can shift the axis of rotation of the tower by a millimeter along or across the axis of the tank without consequences.
              2. Process the turret sheet, as shown in the German film (link in the previous post of the cycle). It is unrealistic that machines are needed even more abruptly than the discussed TCS. But perhaps they were purchased in Germany before the war.
              3. Put a whole turret sheet on the TKS p / w, the radius of which is not much larger than that of the tower.
              1. 0
                13 March 2019 16: 44
                Sobsno, to vskidku and to me the same thoughts came. However, then with the same number of machines, the output falls by half .....
                1. 0
                  14 March 2019 03: 19
                  Quote: frog
                  Sobsno, to vskidku and to me the same thoughts came. However, then with the same number of machines, the output falls by half .....

                  Yes, it falls, therefore they made a turret leaf from segments, at least on the early T-34-76. T-34-85, I haven’t watched the drawings yet, so I don’t know how it was.
              2. 0
                13 March 2019 17: 59
                Yura, please see the scheme that Victor brought

                It seems that the epaulet was not welded into the tower at all, but was mounted on some bolts, fasteners. What do you think of it?
                1. 0
                  13 March 2019 18: 51
                  Good evening, dear Andrey!

                  Sam posted this scheme from the T-34 Manual in the comments on the previous article. In the foreseeable future there will be no opportunity to look in kind, but from the drawing I have no doubt that the bolt mount. And this means the following:
                  The details are strong, the radius is large, there are many fasteners. I didn’t make tanks, but I have, IMHO, a very reasonable assumption that there will be no “leash” when bolted, despite the low processing accuracy of the main parts, since the moment of force required to deform the attached parts is limited by the possible torque of the bolt tightening.
                  Thus, the deflection is limited by the insufficient torque of the bolt tightening force, the deflection is limited by the strength of the parts and their bolt fastening.
                  1. 0
                    13 March 2019 19: 10
                    I don’t understand why people in general “grabbed” the complexity and accuracy of the mating surfaces of the shoulder strap, because it was possible to use rollers in the separator instead of balls. Well, it would turn a little tighter ... manually
                    1. 0
                      13 March 2019 19: 17
                      To do this, you must have two rings:
                      horizontal emphasis (rollers generally what you need)
                      and vertical load (accuracy requirements are reduced, since there is only one load axis, you can leave balls)
                      (I also suggested this in the comments on the previous article)
                    2. 0
                      14 March 2019 03: 41
                      Quote: prodi
                      I don’t understand why people in general “grabbed” the complexity and accuracy of the mating surfaces of the shoulder strap, because it was possible to use rollers in the separator instead of balls. Well, it would turn a little tighter ... manually

                      There is no difference (except for complication) - you still need to bore the base of the tower under one of the cages, now a roller bearing.
                      1. 0
                        14 March 2019 07: 38
                        the difference is that instead of "precision" processing of the mating surfaces for a reference structure with balls, you will have "rough" processed surfaces for rollers that bear many times a large load, although you will need another row to prevent lateral displacement (can be made from a simple metal strips with cut-down windows for rollers, butt-welded, welding can not be stripped off, the Germans would, of course, cleaned out, but for the Russians it will do)
                      2. 0
                        14 March 2019 08: 54
                        Quote: prodi
                        the difference is that instead of "precision" processing of the mating surfaces for a reference structure with balls, you will have "rough" processed surfaces for rollers that bear many times a large load, although you will need another row to prevent lateral displacement (can be made from a simple metal strips with cut-down windows for rollers, butt-welded, welding can not be stripped off, the Germans would, of course, cleaned out, but for the Russians it will do)

                        There is no difference in machines with the desired p / w diameter (more than 2,5 m). And with what, accuracy is needed lower? The same thrust bearing of large diameter, only roller.
                2. 0
                  14 March 2019 03: 37
                  [/ quote] It seems that the epaulette did not weld into the tower at all, but was mounted on some bolts, fasteners. What do you think of this? [Quote]

                  I’m already in almost every comment, your second post, I’m writing about the bolted connection of linear rings (upper and lower) with the base of the tower and with the hull.

                  On TCS with larger dia. p / w (100 "and more) the seat for the upper ring is processed: see in the picture, a small notch on the bottom of the horizontal sheet of the tower (the base of the tower, welded to the vertical walls of the tower), where does the upper ring of the shoulder strap enter? And see the dark quarter-circles? This is a conventional designation of welds along the perimeter of the tower base (horizontal sheet) .If such powerful welds are welded to the upper ring of the shoulder strap directly to the tower, then it will undoubtedly lead quite strongly.

                  Therefore, it was necessary to do two operations, welding the base of the tower, then boring the seat in it under the upper shoulder ring on the TCS with a large p / w diameter (by itself together with the tower and its radius of obmeteniya).
        4. +1
          12 March 2019 13: 15
          and it’s a pity that ours didn’t go right along the path of creating a turretless self-propelled guns, unlike the Germans ... and cheaper in production ...
          1. -2
            12 March 2019 18: 35
            it’s a pity that ours didn’t go right along the path of creating crazy ACS

            Yes, if instead of the "great" T-34 in 40 they started producing something like the Su76 ... if the war does not end much earlier, then the losses will be much less!

            For 41g. cheap and cheerful, no shoulder straps, no diesels, no need to convert plants to a different weight of products ... Visibility is excellent)) no gas contamination)), tact. there are no problems with separation from the infantry (as far as for her))) Maybe a beat. combination with T-60. A simple weapon that meets the qualifications and capabilities of both the workers (releasing it) and the soldiers (using it).
            1. 0
              13 March 2019 13: 45
              Su-76 is a very good machine, but I'm talking about medium-sized self-propelled guns like SU-122, SU-85 ... respectively, the Germans have an artillery assault ..
            2. 0
              13 March 2019 18: 53
              Yeah, if instead of the "great" T-34 in 40 they started producing something like the Su76 ...


              Great car with skillful use. But better not instead, but together.
              And together she was in GAZ instead of cars that were already lacking
              1. 0
                13 March 2019 19: 24
                But better not instead, but together

                Yes, but it will not work, sung instead.
                And together she was in GAZ instead of cars that were already lacking

                Could buy a big batch all wheel drive the Germans in the 40th, instead of Blucher)) Unification with the future adversary, a joy for repairmen)) laughing
                But I wrote "something How Su76". Even the real GAZ has only engines and boxes. If produced in Kharkov, the transmission is with BT, and the engine .. V-4? (V-2 is not produced, on KV-1s there are two V-4 ...) bully
                1. 0
                  13 March 2019 19: 27
                  the party of all-wheel drive from the Germans in the 40th


                  there was almost nothing to buy, they traveled by car French themselves

                  Even in real GAZ - only engines and gearboxes


                  and conveyor)

                  If released in Kharkov


                  That’s better than the T-34. And for you personally, the Su-122)
                  1. 0
                    13 March 2019 19: 57
                    That's better T-34

                    No, not better, even if they are "used wisely". And where does this use come from? The Red Army is full of ideological tacticians ... But an ACS with an open wheelhouse will not be sent right through. Or am I wrong? what
                    And for you personally, the Su-122)

                    Named machine "chessplayer-front"? Then it's better than the Su-107 (with the ZiS-6)) laughing
                    1. 0
                      13 March 2019 20: 05
                      But self-propelled guns with an open deckhouse cannot be sent through.


                      At 41 they will send. Just like tanks whose Germans used rifles to pierce the armor
          2. +1
            13 March 2019 04: 18
            Quote: ser56
            and it’s a pity that ours didn’t go right along the path of creating a turretless self-propelled guns, unlike the Germans ... and cheaper in production ...

            The USSR had a much better solution - a tower self-propelled gun (better maneuver by fire), named T-34-76. That's just it was used incorrectly, like a tank, although it was not a tank. And if used correctly, yes, blitzkrieg kaput would have come quickly.
            1. 0
              13 March 2019 17: 30
              The USSR had a much better solution - a tower self-propelled gun (better maneuver by fire), named T-34-76

              Are you seriously? And what is better? A narrow tower? (because of the "inclined aesthetics" of the sides))) Rate of fire? (although shooting from behind, you can open the top hatch). Visibility? Reliability? The price? And the "fire maneuver" at T34 is eating, but unpredictable winked (as the front-line soldiers write, "seeing nothing, they shot somewhere in the direction of the enemy"))
              1. 0
                14 March 2019 03: 45
                Quote: anzar
                The USSR had a much better solution - a tower self-propelled gun (better maneuver by fire), named T-34-76

                Are you seriously? And what is better? A narrow tower? (because of the "inclined aesthetics" of the sides))) Rate of fire? (although shooting from behind, you can open the top hatch). Visibility? Reliability? The price? And the "fire maneuver" at T34 is eating, but unpredictable winked (as the front-line soldiers write, "seeing nothing, they shot somewhere in the direction of the enemy"))

                Well, I wrote: maneuvering with fire is better, plus good armor, the T-34-76 is much better than self-propelled guns than the self-propelled, lightly armored gun ZIS-3 (SU-76M).
            2. 0
              13 March 2019 18: 56
              The USSR had a much better solution


              wisely use what is, and not send attack through, I agree,
              with a reasonable balance of power
              the tank breaks through the enemy’s defenses well as a means of supporting infantry (artillery assault)
        5. -2
          12 March 2019 15: 11
          It will lead, plus internal stresses. It is much more technologically advanced to do all the operations in one place than to nurse the workpiece here and there.
      2. +6
        12 March 2019 10: 28
        If, of course, we use 60mm thick armor, then the production of tanks will decrease by 30 percent, but the losses of the T-50M will decrease by 34 percent, compared to the T-34-76, until the massive arrival of the RAK 40 by the enemy troops. And even after, no losses "blind" tanks will be significantly less losses of turret self-propelled guns named T-34-76.

        I understand that the Germans did as you advise. And miserably lost the war. Therefore, an understanding of causal relationships in the case of the T-34 shows the depth of thought of management in view of the achievement of strategic goals.
        And the level of strategic management in the USSR was also noted by the Germans, our allies.
        1. 0
          12 March 2019 12: 25
          Quote: glory1974
          Germans did as you advise. And miserably lost the war.

          The Germans definitely lost the war, not because of the commander's turrets and the reinforced VLD.
          Quote: glory1974
          in the case of the T-34 shows the depth of thought of leadership

          The depth of thought leadership is particularly striking.
          1. +2
            12 March 2019 14: 26
            The Germans definitely lost the war, not because of the commander's turrets and the reinforced VLD.

            look wider. The overly complex design of German tanks did not allow to increase the number of vehicles.
            As for the depth of thoughts, in the series of articles in my opinion it is quite intelligibly explained why they acted in this way and not otherwise.
            1. 0
              12 March 2019 14: 56
              Quote: glory1974
              The overly complex design of German tanks did not allow to increase the number of vehicles.

              Who told you that the design of German tanks was unnecessarily complicated, while Soviet tanks were not unnecessarily?
              Quote: glory1974
              in the series of articles in my opinion it’s quite clearly explained,

              The cycle explained that the late-war T-34 is a product of folk art, in which some of the mistakes made in Kharkov are corrected. I do not see a particular depth of thoughts in this.
              1. -1
                13 March 2019 08: 53
                Who told you that the design of German tanks was unnecessarily complicated, while Soviet tanks were not unnecessarily?

                The Germans themselves said about their tanks. About ours - a series of articles telling how they tried to simplify everything. This is not counting other weapons.
                late-war T-34 is a product of folk art, in which some of the errors are fixed,

                It was possible to prohibit backgammon by directive order, but they did not. Probably not because of laziness?
                1. 0
                  13 March 2019 09: 51
                  Quote: glory1974
                  It was possible to prohibit backgammon by directive order,

                  Just folk art helped to partially correct the situation. Who is there and what could be prohibited?
                  Quote: glory1974
                  The Germans themselves said about their tanks

                  What are the Germans saying so? Guderian, or what?
            2. 0
              13 March 2019 13: 12
              Quote: glory1974
              The overly complex design of German tanks did not allow to increase the number of vehicles.

              If you look at PzKpfwIV, then its construction is not that complicated, it gives away some primitivism.
              1. -1
                April 6 2019 19: 33
                The groove looks very neatly executed, in comparison with the 34. And if it comes to that, you also need to look at the Panthers and Tigers, that's really where the high-tech tank is at that time. I think that everything was pretty bad there with manufacturability. Suffice it to look at how many PPSh and MP-38/40 were produced - quite an illustrative example of two approaches to production. The industrial power of Nazi Germany was waning under the Allied air raids, and there was no time enough to rebuild production in favor of simplifying products, although some samples appeared - a Hetzer or a shooter of the people's militia, for example, attempts to grind the "people's fighter" he 162
        2. -5
          12 March 2019 13: 16
          Quote: glory1974
          If, of course, we use 60mm thick armor, then the production of tanks will decrease by 30 percent, but the losses of the T-50M will decrease by 34 percent, compared to the T-34-76, until the massive arrival of the RAK 40 by the enemy troops. And even after, no losses "blind" tanks will be significantly less losses of turret self-propelled guns named T-34-76.

          I understand that the Germans did as you advise. And miserably lost the war. Therefore, an understanding of causal relationships in the case of the T-34 shows the depth of thought of management in view of the achievement of strategic goals.
          And the level of strategic management in the USSR was also noted by the Germans, our allies.

          And they did the right thing, they fought with the United States, Britain and the USSR and a bunch of little things in the form of Canada and others. And if it were not for their "left" allies, such as the Italians and the Japanese, they would have completely reached the A-A line, or even reached the Urals.
          The USSR chose a costly option for people and technology, as a result, in 1944, seventeen-year-old boys had to be drafted into the army. And losses in technology are generally phantasmogoric. Here is such a level of strategic management that mountains of equipment and various materials from the Allies had to be imported.
          And if it were a normal medium tank and a trained army, and not an armed crowd for the most part, it would not have been too much to drive to Berlin in the year 1943.
          1. +4
            12 March 2019 14: 31
            And if it were not for their "left" allies, such as the Italians and the Japanese, they would have completely reached the A-A line, or even the Urals would have reached

            This is a new version of the story. Did the German allies actually fight for us?
            The USSR chose a costly option for people and technology,

            The USSR has chosen a real path that meets the conditions and resource base, which is what the article says.
            as a result, in 1944, seventeen-year-old boys had to be drafted into the army.

            You are probably talking about Germany, in which total mobilization was announced, and called from 17 to 60 years, sick and disabled.
            Here is such a level of strategic management that mountains of equipment and various materials from the Allies had to be imported.

            The result was achieved with the help of the allies. If it weren’t for its own, and if it hadn’t been delivered, then, yes, fools.
            1. 0
              13 March 2019 04: 34
              [/ quote] This is a new version of the story. Did the German allies really fight for us? [Quote]

              With allies such as Yapi and Italians, no enemies are needed.

              In the spring of 41g the Italians were almost defeated by the Angles in Africa; Rommel’s corps had to be sent to help.
              Now imagine, Rommel’s fresh reserve corps rushes to Moscow in the fall of 41, which has nothing to protect, because Far Eastern divisions are associated with battles with the Japanese.

              Do not read coincidences, I have a relative, in early December 44, turned 17 years old (born in 1927), and a couple of days later, he received a summons to the draft board and less than a week later he was already in the army.
              1. +1
                13 March 2019 08: 46
                With allies such as Yapi and Italians, no enemies are needed.

                You do not forget that the Germans fought with the British, and the Italians helped. If it weren’t for the Italians, the Germans would have to throw a few more buildings apart from the Rommel corps. In addition, the 8 Italian army fought against us at Stalingrad.
                And if the German command was unable to make the right decisions, then, as they say, there is nothing to blame for the mirror if the face is crooked. This only speaks of the low strategic level of the command of the Fritz.
                Do not read the coincidence of propaganda, I have a relative, in early December 44g, turned 17let

                And do not read liberal propaganda. Total mobilization was announced among the Germans, we did not have. And in the 1991 year, I joined the army in the 17 years. By law, this is allowed if ....... However, if you served, then you know.
                1. -4
                  13 March 2019 10: 49
                  And do you think women and children in factories, a militia of hundreds of thousands of soldiers, 17-year-olds in the army are not total mobilization? Now, how many countries did Germany hold? How many human resources did these countries take? They fought in Italy, Africa, and then in France. And it's all on a foreign land! How many pilots were kept by Germans only in the territory of the Reich, reflecting the raids of the Anglo-American strategists? -Which incidentally bombed Germany to its entire depth! And day and night. If it were not for the extra fronts and territories that they held they would crush us like bugs and no t 34 would help us
                  1. +1
                    13 March 2019 13: 06
                    If yes ...
                    You can recall how many troops the USSR held in the Far East, against Japan, at the borders of Turkey, in Iran. There was a decent front against Finland. And all disgraced Romania, Italy (yes, by the way, the Spanish Blue Division), completely coped until the end of 1942. with the task of helping the Germans push the Red Army to the east. And the Hungarians fought until the end of the war and the fighting spirit was not lower than that of the Germans.
                    It was not profitable for our allies that we were crushed "like bedbugs". Let us recall the well-known statement of Truman. They organized the balance of power and delayed the approach of victory. Help was strictly metered out. Without American oil and oil products throughout the war and Ford's cars and 5 million tons of oil seized in France (carefully left by the "allies"), the Germans would not have gone far either.
                  2. +2
                    13 March 2019 13: 15
                    about your women and children in factories, a militia of hundreds of thousands of soldiers, 17 summer in the army is not a total mobilization?

                    Do you want to argue with Hitler? It was he who announced a total mobilization. And we didn’t have it. This is a historical fact.
                    Now estimate how many countries Germany held? How many human resources did these countries take? They fought in Italy, Africa, and then in France. And this is all in a foreign land!

                    300 million people worked for Germany, German units were armed with weapons of surrendered armies. From the French, Danes and other Europeans, dozens of divisions were formed that fought against us.
                    How many pilots did the Germans keep only in the territory of the Reich reflecting the raids of the Anglo-American strategists? -Which incidentally bombed Germany to its entire depth! Day and night

                    And what are the results? Until the end of the war, they could not disrupt the work of German military factories. Failed to destroy the FAA launchers. they could only bomb Dresden and kill tens of thousands of civilians. Yes, much could bombing the Red Army.
                    If it weren’t for the extra fronts and territories that they were holding, they would crush us like bugs and no 34 would help us

                    What additional fronts? Is it the Atlantic line, on which the sick and the elderly were kept, not suitable for war in Russia? Or one poor Rommel corps?
                    The Red Army inflicted 80% losses to the Fritz, the Wehrmacht ridge was broken in the USSR.
                    1. +2
                      13 March 2019 13: 59
                      Quote: glory1974
                      300 million people worked for Germany

                      Who is this? Where is it?
                      Quote: glory1974
                      From the French, Danes and other Europeans, dozens of divisions were formed that fought against us.

                      More information about the divisions of the Danes, if possible.
                      Quote: glory1974
                      Until the end of the war, they could not disrupt the work of German military factories

                      Speer had a different opinion, it seems.
                      Quote: glory1974
                      Failed to destroy the FAA launchers.

                      These are their intra-British difficulties.
                      Quote: glory1974
                      What additional fronts?
                      ...
                      The Red Army inflicted 80% losses on the Fritz,

                      Losses killed. These are the remaining 20%. If we consider that these 20% would work the same way as those 80%, this would result in the expense of at least 2 million Soviet soldiers additionally. And if one miserable Rommel corps - 8-12 Soviet divisions of the full staff, not to mention the equally unfortunate 5 TA - put on the scales where they are needed - in the winter of 41st or in the winter of 42nd - oh
                      1. -1
                        13 March 2019 16: 41
                        read the story
                        By 22 on June 1941, Germany virtually unified the whole continent under its auspices, exercising its dominance through various means - from establishing direct occupation rule (most of France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Czech Republic, Poland, Greece, Yugoslavia) to formally equal partnership of countries- allies (Italy, Hungary, Romania, Finland, Denmark, Spain, Slovakia, Croatia, Norway, Bulgaria). In addition, the so-called neutral states — Sweden, Switzerland, and Portugal — turned out to be closely connected with Germany.
                        German-controlled territory of Europe occupied 3 million square meters. km, whose population was about 290 million people.

                        I did not speak about the Danish divisions. I talked about divisions formed from European nations.
                        Speer, who was responsible for industry and could not cope, will naturally find a bunch of reasons to explain his failure. But until 45, the Germans developed and produced equipment, weapons and ammunition, and the British and Americans could not do anything with this. Although they certainly interfered, I do not argue.
                        If the Germans killed another 2 of a million soldiers with us, this is certainly a tragedy. But out of the total number of millions mobilized in 35, I don’t think that the USSR gave up. No, I’m even sure that I didn’t give up and won anyway.
                        But if the Germans put on the scales, as you say, then of course they could .... But, I write that the Germans' strategy lost to the Soviet strategy. Therefore, we took Berlin and won, and not vice versa. And that is a fact.
                      2. +1
                        13 March 2019 19: 16
                        Quote: glory1974
                        read the story

                        Is it you who call the creativity of the intestines Nikiforov-Surzhik history?
                        Quote: glory1974
                        But until the age of 45, the Germans developed and produced equipment, weapons and ammunition, and the British and Americans could not do anything with this. Although they certainly interfered, I do not argue.

                        And who told you what they needed stop all German production? Arnolds?
                        Quote: glory1974
                        If the Germans killed another 2 million soldiers, this is certainly a tragedy. But of the total number mobilized in 35 million people, I do not think that the USSR surrendered.

                        It depends on where and when to kill. And 2 million is from a quarter to a third of the number of European fronts as of May 45th
                        Quote: glory1974
                        But, I write that the German strategy lost the Soviet strategy

                        Without a clue what kind of strategy the Reich had there after December 41. I looked good.
                        Quote: glory1974
                        So we took Berlin and won,

                        Firstly, I will venture to suggest that you personally did not take Berlin. Secondly, the capture of Berlin is a rather random event. Could take, could not take, there is a lot of everything superimposed on one another.
                      3. 0
                        13 March 2019 21: 35
                        Is it you who call the creativity of the intestines Nikiforov-Surzhik history?

                        I don’t know those. Used the generally accepted version.
                        who told you that they needed to stop all German production? Arnolds?

                        This is what user Fedya told me. I answered him.
                        the capture of Berlin is a rather random event.

                        I'm not talking about accidents, which they say are unexplained patterns. I'm talking about a symbol of victory.
                        Without a clue what kind of strategy the Reich had there after December 41. I looked good.

                        Strategy - to achieve your goals in a certain way. The Germans did not succeed.
                        depending on where and when to kill.

                        Could we lose the war. But I mean that they won. But what could have been made by smaller victims is a debatable question, which is what we are discussing.
                      4. +1
                        14 March 2019 12: 52
                        Quote: glory1974
                        I don’t know those.

                        The authors of your quote, if the right button does not lie.
                        Quote: glory1974
                        Used the generally accepted version.

                        This version is generally accepted among, to put it mildly, publicists. There can be no talk of any single European economy in the 40s.
                    2. 0
                      13 March 2019 16: 21
                      What are 300 milenders? The Germans kept in occupation how many countries? The Dutch, Italians, each creature in pairs. Finns yes-Hungarians yes. To half a million and? I won’t rewrite about the territories that the Germans held and active resistance was being fought in a number of countries. Yugoslavia, Greece, Norway, though not so, but Poland. Do you even imagine how much this delayed the troops? How many pilots were in Germany? And Germany was bombed for the whole we fought to the fullest in our land, which is also not unimportant. Then France. And there were also first-class troops there. Italy. Do not tell. Lost in the war with England how many pilots the Germans lost. If the Germans fell on us, we would have a good chance Zero was, we would be torn as a heating pad. And from a distant army pulled up after 41 years. Compare the grouping of the Far East and the fighting of the Germans in Italy in the year 43. It becomes ridiculous. ALL BASIC STRATEGIC TASKS IN THE WWII GERMANS RESOLVED!
                      1. +3
                        13 March 2019 16: 55
                        Quote: Ruger-para
                        ALL BASIC STRATEGIC OBJECTIVES IN THE Second World War were solved by the Germans!

                        I will not talk about Romanians, Hungarians, Slovenes, Czechs, Croats, Finns, Spaniards whom you probably know. We will talk from those who weren’t your type, from those who did nothing and did not decide. Who then fought in the SS national divisions:

                        5th SS Viking Panzer Division - Flemings, Dutch, Walloons, Danes, Norwegians, Estonians and Finns;
                        7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division “Prince Eugen” - Volksdeutsche of Croatia, Serbia, Hungary and Romania;
                        The 11th Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division of the SS "Nordland" - Scandinavians.
                        1st Cossack Division (Third Reich) - Russian collaborationist formation;
                        13th SS Mountain Division “Handshar” (1st Croatian);
                        14th SS Grenadier Division Galicia (1st Galician or 1st Ukrainian);
                        15th SS Grenadier Division (1st Latvian);
                        The 18th volunteer panzergrenadier division of the SS Horst Wessel - Hungarian Volksdeutsche;
                        19th SS Grenadier Division (2st Latvian);
                        SS 20th Grenadier Division (1st Estonian);
                        21st SS Mountain Division “Skanderbeg” (1st Albanian);
                        The 22nd volunteer cavalry division of the SS "Maria Theresa" - Hungarian Volksdeutsche;
                        23rd SS Mountain Division Kama (2nd Croatian);
                        23rd Volunteer Panzergrenadier Division SS Nederland (1st Dutch)
                        The 24th SS Carsteneger Mountain Division - mainly Italian, but also Slovak, Ukrainian, Serbian and Croatian volunteers;
                        The 25th Grenadier Division of the SS Hunyadi (1st Hungarian);
                        26th SS Grenadier Division (2nd Hungarian);
                        27th SS Volunteer Grenadier Division “Langemark” (1st Flemish)
                        28th Volunteer Panzergrenadier SS Division Walloon (1st Walloon)
                        29th Grenadier Division of the SS "RONA" (1st Russian) / 29th Grenadier Division of the SS "Italy" (1st Italian);
                        30th SS Grenadier Division (2nd Russian) / 30th SS Grenadier Division (1st Belarusian);
                        SS 31st Volunteer Grenadier Division - Volksdeutsche;
                        33rd SS Cavalry Division (3rd Hungarian) / 33rd SS Grenadier Division Charlemagne (1st French);
                        34th Volunteer Grenadier Division "Landstorm Nederland" (2nd Dutch);
                        36th Grenadier Division of the SS "Dirlewanger" - German prisoners and "Eastern volunteers";
                        The 37th Volunteer Cavalry Division of the SS Lutz is the Reich Germans and the Hungarian Volksdeutsche.

                        I'm afraid there are more of them than the number of garrisons (in fact, most of the units in Europe are divisions for reorganization and rest). According to the most conservative estimates, this is 600 thousand people, probably there were more, as the staff in some parts of the SS was updated by 70% after the fighting.
                        And this did not include units smaller than the division, of which there were 40 pieces.
                        Or do you think the SS troops are unmotivated, slightly armed garbage? Do you recall the strength of the Wehrmacht in 1941 at the peak of power?
                      2. -1
                        13 March 2019 18: 31
                        Quote: goose
                        Who then fought in the SS national divisions:

                        Finally. Usually patriots record Albanians in the Wehrmacht.

                        Quote: goose
                        According to the most conservative estimates, this is 600 thousand people, probably there were more

                        Lying is bad.
                        Firstly, there were 3 SS divisions: Leibstandart, Reich and the Dead Head. The rest of the parts you listed the later — the more they are repacking into new boxes of various rabble, first of all, the remnants of the German allies who fled by the 44th year. With a few exceptions. 23rd SS Division and beyond - 2nd half of the 44th year.

                        Secondly, a considerable part of these citizens participated mainly in battles for the moonshine still with Tito’s soldiers.
                        Be kind, nevertheless, to recall those SS divisions that solved strategic tasks on the Eastern Front.

                        Quote: goose
                        Or do you think the SS troops are unmotivated, slightly armed garbage?

                        For all sorts of and all sorts of 20 numbers? Of course. You should not mix geeks from the 30th, say, division even with the same Hitler Youth.
                      3. +1
                        14 March 2019 09: 59
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        Lying is bad.
                        Firstly, there were 3 SS divisions: Leibstandart, Reich and the Dead Head.

                        What did the conversation start with? The Germans must be everywhere to do something. These 30+ divisions solved some problems, and freed the Germans from it, thanks to which the SS divisions you mentioned had the opportunity to stay on the Eastern Front.
                      4. 0
                        14 March 2019 12: 42
                        Quote: goose
                        the SS divisions you mentioned had the opportunity to be on the Eastern Front.

                        Technically, there were other divisions in the East, the same 4th, but they are mainly policemen. Success is appropriate.
                        Quote: goose
                        These 30+ divisions solved some problems, and freed the Germans from it,

                        No need to cheat. Yes, any Croatian mug of someone there also cut from civilians. But this did not free the Germans from the need to keep parts of the Wehrmacht both in the Balkans and in Northern Europe. To argue that the Germans were forced to disperse their forces seems to me rather strange.
                      5. +2
                        13 March 2019 16: 56
                        What are the Xnumx Milens?

                        The territory of Europe controlled by Germany by 1941 occupied 3 million square meters. km, whose population was about 290 million people.
                        The Germans kept in occupation how many countries? Dutch, Italians, each creature in pairs. Finns yes-Hungarians yes.

                        In total, until the 1941 of the year, the Nazis seized in Europe various materials and property worth twice the national pre-war income of Germany. The Patriarch of English historians A. Taylor rightly noted: "... without this, she (Germany. - Auth.) Could not continue the war ... Europe became an economic whole."
                        Occupied: (most of France, Belgium, Holland, Czech Republic, Poland, Greece, Yugoslavia) to formally equal partnership of allied countries (Italy, Hungary, Romania, Finland, Denmark, Spain, Slovakia, Croatia, Norway, Bulgaria). In addition, the so-called neutral states — Sweden, Switzerland, and Portugal — turned out to be closely connected with Germany.
                        and in a number of countries active resistance was fought.

                        In France, 50 thousand participated in the resistance, and 500 thousand fought against.
                        Losses in the war with England, how many pilots the Germans lost. If the Germans had leaned on us cleanly, we would have zero chances, we would have been torn like a heating pad

                        Now you understand that ours beat the Germans? They didn’t let them fall on us and break us like a heating pad?
                        ALL BASIC STRATEGIC OBJECTIVES IN THE Second World War were solved by the Germans!

                        You have nothing to do with the army, as I understand it. Otherwise, they would not have written such stupidity. The Germans solved their tasks, we are our own. Simply put, Tactics is the science of how to win a battle. Strategy is the science of how to win a war.
                        So I don’t know what the Germans decided, but they lost the war both tactically and strategically, and this is a fact.
                      6. -2
                        13 March 2019 17: 47
                        And where are the squads of the French. After Moscow, they were withdrawn and nowhere else have they been noted as an acre in the defense of Germany. But I don’t remember the large-scale French movement in Russia. Here and collect the divisions. The Dutch. Division, etc. There are only 1.5 of them a million can’t be typed. Ours even said that. The warriors are Germans Hungarians and Finns. The rest are like that. Yes, they pulled the troops out but they were worthless like warriors. How much would I not have studied everywhere! Germans are Germans Germans. I’m not so special read about the Romanians. Hungarians and the Finns. You can only imagine the number of troops detached to fight against the underground and partisans. Only in Greece detachments were given dust. Let not so much but multiply by countries. They pulled dozens of divisions from the fronts. I am silent about Italy and France. I’m even afraid to imagine if all these troops entered Russia ... In Italy, a bit. In Rommel a bit. In Yugoslavia. Oh oh
                      7. +3
                        13 March 2019 17: 12
                        Quote: Ruger-para
                        How many pilots in Germany sat

                        There are books, everything is counted. https://history.wikireading.ru/413823
                        1942 year
                        Reich Air Defense System
                        Heavy batteries (88 and 105 mm) 744
                        Light batteries (20 and 37 mm) 438
                        The number of hp batteries is easily considered to be approximately 11-12 thousand people around anti-aircraft guns and in control units.
                        The number of combat-ready fighters of all types is about 600, and the Germans never attracted more than 300 at a time.
                        This is approximately 1500 flight personnel + 9-10 thousand service personnel
                        Those. personnel on ONE motorized division.
                      8. 0
                        13 March 2019 18: 39
                        Quote: goose
                        The number of combat-ready fighters of all types is about 600, and the Germans never attracted more than 300 at a time

                        You didn’t confuse the Reich’s air defense with the Eastern Front for an hour, no?
                      9. +1
                        14 March 2019 10: 05
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        You didn’t confuse the Reich’s air defense with the Eastern Front for an hour, no?

                        This is precisely the number of all yagdgeshweders in the 1,2,3,4-fleets responsible for air defense of the Reich. I want to remind you that until 1942 the use of aviation in the interests of the Reich air defense was practically not envisaged, only artillery. Fighter units began to be attracted later, when it became clear that artillery was not effective enough.
                        The maximum strength of 300 aircraft was taken from the largest interception operation. More than this number in no operation the Germans at a time not attracted. Perhaps in 1944, the number of Yagdgeshwaders became larger on the territory of the Reich, but they were not part of the staff of 1-4 fleets and were not responsible for air defense.
                      10. +1
                        14 March 2019 12: 49
                        Quote: goose
                        This is exactly the number of all yagdgeshweders in 1,2,3,4-fleets

                        And, did you write about the 42nd year, when practically nothing happened in the Northwest? Then there are no questions.

                        By the way, it’s funny that you consider the SS divisions in the 45th year, and the Reich air defense in the 42nd.
                      11. +1
                        14 March 2019 14: 07
                        Quote: Cherry Nine
                        By the way, it’s funny that you consider the SS divisions in the 45th year, and the Reich air defense in the 42nd.

                        I already told you that for the 1945th year it is problematic to accurately calculate in view of the large number of fighters from the army units that were involved in air defense, but were not listed in it, and I’m afraid you will not count more than 800 fighter planes in 1944, nor in 1945.
                      12. -1
                        14 March 2019 15: 25
                        Kamrad mixed everything up.
                        Here: https: //rostislavddd.livejournal.com/251030.html- very detailed about the air defense of the Reich from 35 to 45 years. Composition, materiel, distribution on the theater of operations

                        Maximum strength

                        So, in August 1940 in the Luftwaffe there were the following Flack batteries: 791 heavy, 686 light, 221 floodlights. Four years later, these numbers rose to 2655 heavy, 1612 light and 470 searchlight batteries, respectively.

                        In February 1944, Flack units reached their maximum numbers: 13 heavy anti-aircraft guns, 500 light anti-aircraft guns, 21 searchlights, 000 balloons. By the fall of 7, projectile consumption reached its maximum and amounted to 000 million shells for heavy Flack guns and 2 million shells for light Flack guns per month.

                        The number of personnel of the units Flac by the autumn of 1944 reached 1 people.
                2. 0
                  13 March 2019 16: 57
                  Quote: glory1974
                  With allies such as Yapi and Italians, no enemies are needed.

                  You do not forget that the Germans fought with the British, and the Italians helped. If it weren’t for the Italians, the Germans would have to throw a few more buildings apart from the Rommel corps. In addition, the 8 Italian army fought against us at Stalingrad.
                  And if the German command was unable to make the right decisions, then, as they say, there is nothing to blame for the mirror if the face is crooked. This only speaks of the low strategic level of the command of the Fritz.
                  Do not read the coincidence of propaganda, I have a relative, in early December 44g, turned 17let

                  And do not read liberal propaganda. Total mobilization was announced among the Germans, we did not have. And in the 1991 year, I joined the army in the 17 years. By law, this is allowed if ....... However, if you served, then you know.

                  If the Italians fought normally or didn’t climb at all where it wasn’t necessary, then they would not have to send any German corps to help them. And then Rommel would have entered Moscow, etc. etc.
                  I did not say anything about total mobilization - these are your words. I brought you the real fact of total mobilization (which formally did not seem to exist), when even yesterday, a 16-year-old boy was drafted into the army as a 17-year-old in December 1944 and he was not a volunteer, on the contrary, it was not particularly to go to the army wanted (despite all the concurrent propaganda of that time). And another fact of total mobilization - the same relative turned 1941 in 14, and he was immediately "transferred" from a regular school to a FZU, to study as a turner, and it was impossible to refuse and it was impossible to escape from FZU (that is, this it was illegal, and it was a wartime, harsh, and FZU at a defense enterprise). Such is the "liberal" propaganda against your Soviet agitation.
                  1. +2
                    13 March 2019 20: 47
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    Rommel would enter Moscow, etc. etc.


                    Where would you go in?

                    In Italy, his corps initially had 2 divisions, and already being the commander of the ARMY GROUP, his group included FOURE German divisions (until November 1944) and 4,5 (kutsaya GG) until May 1943 - and this is when the Americans with free French were in Moroko.
                    . And that’s it!
                    And the Italians fought with the British abruptly (under the leadership of Rommel), but in Russia the climate for them was difficult and a burden for the Germans. It happens, not the first.
                    In how.
                    1. 0
                      14 March 2019 11: 44
                      [/ quote] In Italy, initially its corps had 2 divisions [quote]

                      And how many divisions do you need if you don’t have a single Far Eastern and Siberian one to defend Moscow? are they busy in the war with japan?
                      1. 0
                        14 March 2019 12: 50
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        And how many divisions do you need?


                        In August 1942, the Germans entered Stalingrad and almost took it (there were two islands of resistance). It seems that we did not have troops either. But they found and 22 of their divisions were boiled in a boiler.
                        Leading the attack in one strategic direction, the Germans allowed us to throw reserves, and they were .. And the Far Eastern troops were valuable in that they already had 4 months of combat coordination, military units were created, and had a higher level of combat readiness ..
                      2. 0
                        14 March 2019 16: 58
                        [/ quote] In 1942, the Germans entered Stalingrad in August and almost took it (there were two islands of resistance). It seems that we didn’t have troops either. [quote]


                        Reserves were driven to Stalingrad, day and night, through the Volga, and vice versa, what was left of them after the battles (wounded).

                        And what will you drive to Moscow if your reserves are at war with the attacking Japan, and there are no others yet?

                        But the Germans will have a reserve - two armored divisions with almost 400 tanks and at the right time. How do you stop almost 400 tanks?
                      3. +1
                        14 March 2019 18: 41
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        Reserves were driven to Stalingrad, day and night, through the Volga, and vice versa, what was left of them after the battles (wounded).


                        What was left of them was enough to encircle two dozen German divisions and to gouge the remains of 4 TA trying to unlock them

                        .
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        And what will you drive to Moscow if your reserves are at war with the attacking Japan,


                        By priority, they would still be thrown under Moscow (maybe less).

                        Quote: Jura 27
                        But the Germans will have a reserve - two armored divisions with almost 400 tanks


                        Yes, there were three tank groups of two MK each, plus each AK of the first echelon had TD.

                        I’m not saying that if they entered the city, tank superiority was over, they would have disappeared without a trace.
                        Stalingrad (and the Germans climbed there in the summer, and around the steppe) dissolved the 6th army. And Moscow with its surrounding forests and rivers and city blocks as a fortress. I would suck the floor of the Wehrmacht (well, at least a grouping of this direction), and demanded constant recharge, weakening other directions.

                        You remember how they were thrown away (150-300 km), and so already in 1941 Stalingrad would have turned out in Moscow. - would have surrounded 30-35 stuck German divisions. And Moscow is a huge "sponge".
                      4. 0
                        17 March 2019 04: 31
                        [/ quote] You remember how they were thrown away (150-300 km), and in 1941 it would have been Stalingrad in Moscow. - would have surrounded 30-35 stuck German divisions. And Moscow is a huge "sponge". [Quote]


                        The analogy with Stalingrad does not channel, because there are no free reserves, and even inside Moscow there is no one to fight, except for the police and some labor battalions, not to mention the fact that the plan to seize Moscow envisaged its encirclement and, accordingly, no reserves (again, which are not) to be thrown into it, how to get to Stalingrad.
                  2. +2
                    13 March 2019 21: 24
                    If the Italians fought normally or didn’t climb at all where it wasn’t necessary, then they would not have to send any German corps to help them. And then Rommel would have entered Moscow, etc. etc.

                    Hitler announced that Romania was entering the war on the side of Germany. The audience fell silent. One of the generals said: "We don't care which side Romania is on. If it's on our side, then 10 divisions must be sent to defend it. If against us, 10 divisions must be sent to defeat it," this is of course a historical joke, but it also contains part of the truth. I mean, the Germans have a low quality of strategic decisions.
                    16-year-old boy was drafted into the army 17-year-old in December 1944 year and he was not a volunteer

                    Maybe it was like that. In the USSR there was a mobilization of everyone and everything. Therefore, they won. But in Germany mobilization was total. Read the difference.
                    a relative turned 1941 in 14, and he was immediately "transferred" from a regular school to a FZU, to study as a turner, and it was impossible to refuse and it was impossible to escape from FZU

                    Do you think it was possible to go to a resort in Turkey while the country is at war? In the 80s, when I was in school, some were also "transferred" from school to vocational school to study turners and locksmiths. So what? The Soviet authorities did not allow them to engage in nonsense, but forced them to study and work. This is such a terrible violation of democracy.
                    1. 0
                      14 March 2019 17: 04
                      [/ quote] Hitler said that Romania enters the war on the side of Germany. [quote]


                      If no jokes, then in real life, Aloizych said something different about the Romanians, but they fought much better than he thought about them.

                      Total or almost total - the difference is small, I gave an example.

                      Turkey has nothing to do with it, I, about obvious miscalculations in the strategy that had to carry out almost total mobilization in the USSR in the autumn of 1944.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. +2
            13 March 2019 13: 21
            Quote: Jura 27
            had in 1944, seventeen-year-old boys to the army.

            The population of the USSR was about 170 million people, military losses during the whole war amounted to about 8 million people + 14 million civilians. With the draft contingent of about 25 million, I do not see the point in the mass appeal of 17-year-olds. Maybe your opinion was based on the fact that 50% of the draft potential (and better) was in the occupied territory?
            But by the way from the book of one famous Georgian pilot, in 1943 he was on vacation in his native city, and none of his peers he knew had been drafted into the army by that time. Somewhere they raked to zero, and somewhere nobody.
            1. -2
              13 March 2019 16: 24
              8 million? Do you live in what year do you live in? Are you at least in a state simply to walk along the milestones of the war? By December 41 more than three million were captured. A total of 6.4 remained there. THIS OFF.MO data. And then the battle for Moscow. Stalingrad, Rzhev, Leningrad. Poland is only 600 thousand! WHAT 8 MILLION? Are you really naive? Kursk, Bagration, Ukraine. WHAT 8 MILLION? Just count! There are 15 too few.
              1. +2
                13 March 2019 16: 43
                Quote: Ruger-para
                Kursk, Bagration, Ukraine. WHAT 8 MILLIONS?

                I have a personal book at home. The losses of the Red Army. Published by MO. Very detailed by periods. Do not come up with an alternative story. I can make an extract.
                Just the losses of 1944 are minimal for the entire war, in the operations you have indicated the Red Army actually suffered few losses. It looks like you have no actual document-based material Military losses.
                The only thing I can argue with you is the fate of the dead prisoners. Who to consider them. According to Zemskov, he includes them in direct combat losses. I consider the military, prisoners of concentration camps and workers civilians killed in captivity.
                https://topwar.ru/91488-o-masshtabah-lyudskih-poter-cccr-v-velikoy-otechestvennoy-voyne.html

                First, find out what number you rely on.
              2. 0
                13 March 2019 17: 00
                8 million? What case do you live in?

                A car and a small cart were written about the losses. Read and find all the numbers. No need to invent.
                1. -3
                  13 March 2019 17: 39
                  Why should I invent? Only 4 million according to the Ministry of Defense died in captivity. And during the whole war we lost 4 more on all fronts? Do you believe in this nonsense? If according to the Ministry of Defense, only 4 million were lost in captivity! What is there to consider? There you need 4 classes of education. Simple numbers add up according to the same MO! It is already so lied that it contradicts itself!
                  1. +3
                    13 March 2019 21: 27
                    In captivity, only 4 million perished according to the Ministry of Defense. And during the whole war we lost 4 on all fronts

                    if my memory serves me right, 3 million people died in captivity, 8 died in the army, 4 million total 11,4 million according to the Ministry of Defense.
                    1. 0
                      15 March 2019 09: 37
                      Here they wrote, 8 million. Above. According to my data, 4 died in captivity. Count all the battles in 4 years. More than a million were shot in Europe. North-west only with his attempts to break through Leningrad
                  2. +1
                    14 March 2019 10: 13
                    Quote: Ruger-para
                    Why should I invent?

                    You are busy with this, your religion. They answer you based on serious research.
                    My grandfather went through the whole war. from June 22, 1941 to May 13, 1945 near Balaton. He fought wherever it was hot. Fights near the border, Stalingrad, Kursk, Belarus, all of eastern Europe. A bunch of injuries. He survived because he knew how to fight.
            2. +1
              13 March 2019 16: 33
              [/ quote] I do not see the point in the mass appeal of 17-year-olds. [quote]

              You don’t see, but someone, in 44g saw and called my close relative, who was a couple of days before the draft, was 16 years old.
            3. 0
              14 March 2019 14: 50
              With a draft contingent of about 25 million, I see no reason for the mass appeal of 17-year-olds.



              You may not see the point. And Comrade Stalin saw it. He, as they say, knows better.

              In total, 1944 million 1 thousand 156 people were called up in 727.


              Top secret.

              State Defense Committee
              Decision No. GOKO-6784cc dated 25 October 1944
              Moscow Kremlin.

              On conscription for military service of conscripts born in 1927.

              The State Defense Committee decides:

              1. To oblige an NPO (i.e. Smorodinova) in November 1944 to call up for military service male citizens born in 1927 (including those who are in territory freed from the enemy).

              2. From the call to release:

              a) workers' enterprises with qualifications of level 3 and above, and students of vocational schools and schools of people's commissariats, indicated in the appendix;

              b) students of all higher educational institutions and students of all technical schools;

              c) students in grades 10 of the secondary school and 9th and 10th grades of special schools of the People's Commissariat of Education;

              d) conscripts of local nationalities: Georgian, Azerbaijan, Armenian, Turkmen, Tajik, Uzbek, Kazakh and Kyrgyz Union Republics, Dagestan, Kabardian, North Ossetian Autonomous Socialist Republics, Adygea and Circassian Autonomous Regions.

              3. To oblige Commander of the Main Directorate of the Red Army Comrade Smorodinov:

              a) send 60.000 people to the staffing of the NKVD;

              b) concentrate the rest of the conscripts born in 1927 in spare, educational units and special schools and schools, setting a six-month training period for them.

              4. To oblige the NKPS (Comrade Kaganovich) and the Chief of Logistics of the Red Army (Comrade Khrulev) to transport the contingents indicated in this resolution to the points and dates upon request of the Chief of the Main Directorate of the Red Army Comrade Smorodinov.

              CHAIRMAN OF THE STATE DEFENSE COMMITTEE I. STALIN
      3. +3
        12 March 2019 10: 54
        Quote: Jura 27
        no new transmission

        In fairness, there were 2 innovations: a demultiplier and a certain cable facilitating switching.
        It is absolutely incomprehensible why the new 5-speed gearbox with planetary gears, which was prepared during the R&D of 1940, and tested in early 1941, was not planned in the series. The presence of gear cutting machines was provided, the labor intensity is more than 15%, but there are no shortcomings of the old. It seemed logical to follow the modernization program adopted in 1940.
        1. -1
          12 March 2019 13: 21
          Quote: goose
          Quote: Jura 27
          no new transmission

          In fairness, there were 2 innovations: a demultiplier and a certain cable facilitating switching.
          It is absolutely incomprehensible why the new 5-speed gearbox with planetary gears, which was prepared during the R&D of 1940, and tested in early 1941, was not planned in the series. The presence of gear cutting machines was provided, the labor intensity is more than 15%, but there are no shortcomings of the old. It seemed logical to follow the modernization program adopted in 1940.

          I won’t say anything about the cable, but there was definitely no demultiplier.
          There are big doubts about the stock of gear cutting machines, because Z-d No. 183, back in 1944, drove a full-speed four-speed gearbox to the T-34-85, despite all the lend-lease and others.
          1. +2
            12 March 2019 14: 36
            Quote: Jura 27
            in all drove on the T-34-85, four-speed gearbox, despite all the lend-lease and others.

            You are right, the demultiplier was set only at the T-34M, T43 checkpoints and heavy tanks.
            On their native T-34-85, they immediately put a five-speed box. But what prevented the release of a gearbox with a demultiplier, a temporary option?
            1. 0
              13 March 2019 05: 01
              [/ quote] You are right, the demultiplier was set only at the T-34M, T43 checkpoints and heavy tanks.
              On their native T-34-85, they immediately put a five-speed box. But here's what prevented the release of a gearbox with a demultiplier, a temporary option? [Quote]


              The T-34M had two tanks with the same name, on the one which they were going to launch in the series, there were no demultipliers, as well as on the T-43 and heavy production tanks.
              On the T-34-85 tanks of different plants, there were different checkpoints, on the T-34-85 of plant No. 183, four steps were put in place in 1944 due to a shortage of gear cutting machines.
              The housing dimensions prevented the delivery of the demultiplicator (they must be increased) and the shortage of gear cutting machines, and the T-34-76 (85) demultiplier is not needed.
      4. 0
        13 March 2019 10: 24
        Unless, of course, 60 mm thick armor is used, then tank production will decrease by 30 percent, but T-50M losses will decrease by 34 percent, compared with T-34-76, before the mass arrival of the RAK 40 in the enemy’s troops

        Respected! A 30% reduction in tank production means a loss of 30% in tanks.
        Loss of a tank from breaking through frontal armor with a thickness of 45 mm is a smaller percentage of losses from other causes, including losses on the way to the front, losses due to a malfunction of the chassis (including combat ones), and losses resulting from falling on board.
      5. 0
        16 March 2019 22: 57
        Thinking is a dead matter.
        T-34 cases were trusted to be assembled by children, as servicing the machine was relatively simple. Cut flat armor parts, laid out on the tables and cooked. The T-34M was much more complicated and required a greater number of forging and stamping operations, both the hull and the tower, there was simply no such equipment.
        The number of tanks produced does not depend on the thickness of the used armor, but depends on the availability of armor.
        About losses, generally nonsense. Read the previous articles in this series and comments.
        In short, you wrote nonsense.
        1. 0
          17 March 2019 04: 42
          Quote: 17085
          Thinking is a dead matter.
          T-34 cases were trusted to be assembled by children, as servicing the machine was relatively simple. Cut flat armor parts, laid out on the tables and cooked. The T-34M was much more complicated and required a greater number of forging and stamping operations, both the hull and the tower, there was simply no such equipment.
          The number of tanks produced does not depend on the thickness of the used armor, but depends on the availability of armor.
          About losses, generally nonsense. Read the previous articles in this series and comments.
          In short, you wrote nonsense.

          Machine service, - this is only one, the simplest operation - look at the photo where a bunch of men are busy at work on the building.

          The T-34M had a simpler body than the T-34-76, the tower, it was also somewhat simpler and the equipment for its production was the same as for the T-34-76 tower.

          The number of tanks depends on the thickness of the armor, subject to the same volume of production of armor in the furnaces. Or, it is necessary to increase the cooking of armor in furnaces, but whether there is a reserve is unknown.
          Losses, other things being equal (armor, etc.), directly depend on the "blindness" / "not blindness" of the tank.
          So nonsense, just you wrote.
    2. +2
      12 March 2019 19: 02
      "I remember our head teacher, he was burning in a tank near Moscow in 41" ////
      ----
      He truly said. Near Moscow there were generally few tanks on both sides. The Germans lost almost all the cars that moved from the border. And Krasnaya lost all its pre-war reserves and those that were released in the first months of 41. T-26s were being transferred from the Far East. Those in the western part of the USSR were all lost.
  2. +9
    12 March 2019 06: 00
    Andrey good morning! Thank you for the article. You just forgot to mention that the author of automatic welding was E.O. Paton! But this is precisely what became a breakthrough in tank building!
    1. +10
      12 March 2019 08: 42
      the author of automatic welding was EO Paton!
      Evgeny Oskarovich Paton was not the author of automatic welding. He was the head of the introduction of this technology in the USSR, including in the production of tanks, which, nevertheless, does not detract from his merits.
      Submerged arc welding was developed by N.G. Slavyanov in 1888
      Automatic welding was developed by Nobel (one-mile) from General Electric in 1920.
      Automatic submerged arc welding was developed at the National Tube Company for a pipe mill in McKeesport, PA in 1930. Since 1938, the process has been widely used in the manufacture of military equipment.
      1. +1
        12 March 2019 11: 18
        Quote: Decimam
        the author of automatic welding was EO Paton!
        Evgeny Oskarovich Paton was not the author of automatic welding. He was the head of the introduction of this technology in the USSR, including in the production of tanks, which, nevertheless, does not detract from his merits.
        Submerged arc welding was developed by N.G. Slavyanov in 1888
        Automatic welding was developed by Nobel (one-mile) from General Electric in 1920.
        Automatic submerged arc welding was developed at the National Tube Company for a pipe mill in McKeesport, PA in 1930. Since 1938, the process has been widely used in the manufacture of military equipment.

        I thank Viktor Nikolaevich for the amendment! I did not go into the topic, I just remember his work on automatic welding, so I thought that he was the author!
        1. +5
          12 March 2019 12: 19
          These were great people. I had a chance to communicate with his son, Boris Evgenievich, who continued the work of his father. The oldest (simultaneously by age and term of office) President of the State Academy of Sciences in the world, as well as the oldest (both by age and length of stay in status), a full member of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine and the Russian Academy of Sciences! Last November was 100 years old!
  3. +5
    12 March 2019 06: 22
    For some reason, the author did not mention the machines delivered by Germany before the war under a trade agreement before the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. I could not find information about the number of delivered machines, but that such machines had to be delivered by agreement, for sure. If they were delivered, I would like to know what factories they were installed. In general, it’s very informative and interesting.
  4. +2
    12 March 2019 06: 55
    bet on the comprehensive expansion of T-34 production, which was made in the most difficult conditions of 1941-42. and only then, after 5 manufacturers have reached their design capacity, the modernization of the T-34 looks like a reasonable alternative to any other decision that could then be made.

    Well said, but nevertheless, certain attempts at modernization were in the 41-42-ies. From time to time, there were attempts to introduce commander towers; their distribution was hindered, mainly, not by technological complexity, but by location optimization, because in most cases, increased fatigue of the tank commander occurred, a large percentage of the tanks came with shielding (up to 30 mm, which in general did not save, and with 43 g the shielding disappeared). but such a controversial structural element as the nasal gland disappeared only by the end of the war, although this issue could probably have been resolved earlier (relying on pre-war developments) no matter how the exception was the extra part and 750 kg of weight ..
    1. +1
      13 March 2019 10: 31
      Quote: mark1
      up to 30 mm which in general did not save

      Where did you find the 30mm shielding? The maximum thickness was about 20 mm, most of the options stopped at a size of 10-16mm.
      1. 0
        13 March 2019 11: 11
        Machines of the Stalingrad plant, for example, what have the series.
        1. 0
          13 March 2019 11: 40
          Well, yes, I made a mistake. I have one cunning photo, it then confused me. But the essence of the post does not change.
  5. +2
    12 March 2019 07: 24
    logical, infrequent quality article,
  6. +2
    12 March 2019 07: 34
    A bit of alternative.
    I wonder why there were no "shielded" T-34s? Was it really so difficult to weld or hang 20-30-40mm sheets on top of the VLD? On the SU-100, they were able to strengthen the forehead up to 75mm. Even a 40mm sheet will give 1.5-2 tons of excess weight.
    Well, the second question is also to the universe. The Germans bore the ZiS-3 chamber, who prevented doing the same with the F-34? Turn over the sleeve from the 85mm gun, with a reduced filling. S-53 / D-5 on the armor became more or less massive only by the middle of 44 years. And the alteration from ZiS-3 could become massive already at the beginning of 43 years.
    And instead of light tanks of tanks with a magpie, do something like a hatzer? ZiS-2 chassis T-70 would withstand.

    I almost forgot) Thanks for the series of articles.
    1. +5
      12 March 2019 08: 30
      Quote: demiurg
      The Germans bore the ZiS-3 chamber, who prevented doing the same with the F-34?

      The Germans bore the chamber at the F-22 trophies, which became 7,62 cm Pak 36 (r)
      1. 0
        12 March 2019 08: 36
        Quote: BORMAN82

        The Germans bore the chamber at the F-22 trophies, which became 7,62 cm Pak 36 (r)


        By the way, yes, thanks for correcting. But I still consider the right decision to exchange the barrel resource for the projectile speed for tank guns.
        1. +8
          12 March 2019 09: 23
          Quote: demiurg
          A bit of alternative.

          The topic "how can we improve the Soviet BTT" has been used up and down on the corresponding resources.
          Quote: demiurg
          20-30-40mm sheets on top of VLD?

          Suspension and transmission and what is poorly kept. Therefore, the T-34-85 VLD is not increased.
          Quote: demiurg
          On the SU-100 were able to strengthen the forehead to 75mm.

          1. 4 years of work.
          2. The Su-100 is overtightened from the front.
          Quote: demiurg
          The Germans bore the ZiS-3 chamber, who prevented doing the same with the F-34?

          A hundred times answered this question. No brass for large sleeves, no equipment for steel sleeves. No gunpowder either.
          Quote: demiurg
          And the alteration from ZiS-3 could become massive already at the beginning of 43 years.

          Why do so much to redo to get a new 3-K, to which ammunition also has to be redone? Put 52K on a suitable carriage and go ahead, the Soviet 3-inch Gun M5.
          Quote: demiurg
          But exchange barrel life for projectile speed

          Low ballistics due to excess resource is a topic for Americans. The theme of the USSR is gunpowder and cartridges.
          1. 0
            12 March 2019 09: 30
            for 52k you need a new tower.
            If you want to improve armor penetration without changing the design of the tank, then either ZiS-2, or attach a 3-K barrel.
            The same with security. The easiest way is to weld the sheets over the main armor.
            1. +3
              12 March 2019 09: 42
              Quote: demiurg
              for 52k you need a new tower.

              A new tower is needed, even if nothing is changed.
              Quote: demiurg
              or attach a 3-K barrel.

              Nothing needs to be attached. You are trying to invent a ZiS-5 cannon from KV.
              Quote: demiurg
              The easiest way is to weld the sheets over the main armor.

              As a result, the T-34, which is still a medium tank, will lose mobility completely. By the way, you didn’t notice that the T-34 grew in weight without screens - the use of the same casting instead of forging and milling does not reduce the weight of the tank.
            2. +2
              12 March 2019 14: 42
              Quote: demiurg
              If you want to improve armor penetration without changing the design of the tank, then either ZiS-2, or attach a 3-K barrel.

              Forget about the ZIS-2, not only that the artillery system is inefficient in production, because yield of high-quality trunks at the level of 20%, so what else are you going to shoot from a kilometer by bunkers or Pak-40? He has only armor-piercing shells and shrapnel from running shells. OFS inefficient, at the level of 52-k.
              How many will have to shoot to disable a soft target?
            3. The comment was deleted.
    2. +4
      12 March 2019 08: 38
      [/ quote] I wonder why there were no "shielded" T-34s? [quote]


      There were many, but when the screening made sense, the armor was in short supply, and then the screens didn’t help much, against the enemy’s massive tank guns and anti-tank guns.
      1. 0
        12 March 2019 08: 47
        Long ago, excess armor began to interfere with tankers? And why then did they bring all the tracks to the VLD?

        45 + 30 = 75mm armor plate, this is 150mm pridenki. Pak-40 is out of work. Aht-aht a kilometer too.
        1. +2
          12 March 2019 12: 53
          Quote: demiurg
          Long ago, excess armor began to interfere with tankers? And why then did they bring all the tracks to the VLD?

          45 + 30 = 75mm armor plate, this is 150mm pridenki. Pak-40 is out of work. Aht-aht a kilometer too.

          45 + 30 is not equal to 75 for armor resistance, and even cutouts in the VLD, which do not contribute to armor resistance. But in general, it is better with a screen than without a screen, with thick armor, but there was only a deficit of up to 43g.
    3. +6
      12 March 2019 08: 38
      Regarding the screening of the T-34 -
      Temporary gain
      Yuri Pashalk
      warspot.ru
      The Germans bore the ZiS-3 chamber, who prevented doing the same with the F-34?

      You confuse ZiS-3 with F-22 and SPM! The ZiS-3 design did not have the structural strength that would allow it to go along with itself like the F-22 and USV design! And for the converted guns, the Germans were forced to produce shells created just for them!
      Calculations were made in 1943 to bring the T-34 gun to a gun with ballistics and K-3 anti-aircraft gun shells! At the end of 1943, the irrelevance of such a decision was considered. In addition, due to the increase in the dimensions of the shells, it would become even more difficult to work with a chase of 1420 mm!
      Finally, the joint plenary session of the People’s Commissariat of Arms and the People’s Commissariat of Ammunition drew a line under this project. The documents of the plenum, in particular, said:
      “The easiest to implement should be recognized as a simple extension of the gun barrel to 60 kb. But without transition to the use of anti-aircraft gun shell arr. 1931 such rearmament will not give any gains ...
      The cost of a rifled barrel lengthening 60 klb. approximately twice that of the trunk of 41 klb ...
      Sleeve 76 mm anti-aircraft gun mod. 31/38 almost exactly repeats the 85 mm gun barrel arr. 39 and therefore the cost of the cartridges of these guns is almost equal ...
      Given that the 85-mm gun with a similar powder charge and the beginning. the speed of a heavier armor-piercing projectile has better conditions for penetrating armor of both medium and high hardness, as well as that the armor-piercing effect of 85-mm armor-piercing shells exceeds one and a half times the 76-mm caliber, and the fragmentation effect is 30 percent ... Since it is decisive in the placement of BC is a sleeve, and it is the same for 76 mm and 85 mm ammunition, in this issue it is also more profitable to switch directly to the 85 mm caliber ...
      Issue of 76 mm cartridges for a gun mod. 31/38 current no time is spent, which will create additional problems of supplying tanks with ammunition ...
      Thus, the modernization of the artillery weapons of the T-34 tank is more profitable to carry out on the way to the transition to the 85-mm arr. 39, as having higher characteristics at a reasonable price and similar labor costs ... "
      1. 0
        12 March 2019 08: 44
        At Balaton, mainly fought T-34-76, with the F-34. Under Oglenduv there was only one T-34-85.
        The USSR could have an analogue for penetration 85mm gun massively to the Kursk Bulge. And the VET could be saturated not with ZiS-2 by the end of 44, but with a long-barrel 76 mm gun by the end of 43 years.
        1. +1
          12 March 2019 08: 57
          To the Kursk Bulge could only bring the characteristics of the F-34 to the characteristics of the F-22! But for unknown reasons, this did not go! The production of ZiS-2 was curtailed and its establishment again in 1943 had its own problems!
          1. 0
            12 March 2019 09: 15
            Thanks for the link to the warspot.
            What is the point of spreading thin sheets over the body?
            A simple thought. For example, we select every 10 T-34s. We weld a 25-30mm sheet on his forehead. In the tower (also shielded) we put a reinforced 76mm gun.
            And massively in 42, we have a tank destroyer with which the fourth and third grooves can not do anything. Pak 40 becomes dangerous only from 300-400 meters.
        2. +1
          12 March 2019 09: 31
          Quote: demiurg
          At Balaton, mainly fought T-34-76, with the F-34. Under Oglenduv there was only one T-34-85.

          It seems that we have already discussed this "in the main" and it seems that you have rolled back a little. Have you picked it up again?
          Quote: demiurg
          long-barrel 76mm gun

          What kind of long-barrel Soviet gun?

          Oh yes.
          Quote: demiurg
          And instead of light tanks of tanks with a magpie, do something like a hatzer? ZiS-2 chassis T-70 would withstand.

          You did something like Hetzer. Su-76. Without armored hire, a gun and an engine, something seems to work out.
          1. 0
            12 March 2019 09: 42
            Quote: Cherry Nine

            It seems that we have already discussed this "in the main" and it seems that you have rolled back a little. Have you picked it up again?
            What kind of long-barrel Soviet gun?

            You did something like Hetzer. Su-76. Without armored hire, a gun and an engine, something seems to work out.


            T-34-85 could put into series only at the beginning of 44 years. Moreover, even an 85mm gun was made quickly, in a few months. But the gun carrier was born for a long time. That is, you need a gun that fits into the old tower. Either 57 or 76mm. But 57 barrels are not in mass production. It remains to do something 76mm (no matter what).
            Okay Tigers and Panthers. The rods have been rolling with an 80mm forehead since the beginning of 43 years. Four grooves from 42 years with a long 75mm gun.
            What prevented the USSR from making a part of the T-34 with a reinforced forehead and reinforced gun?

            SU-76 is not at all like a hatzer. Straight at all.
            1. +1
              12 March 2019 09: 46
              Quote: demiurg
              SU-76 is not at all like a hatzer. Straight at all.

              What they could, they could. Do not want to - do not take it.
              Quote: demiurg
              What prevented the USSR from making a part of the T-34 with a reinforced forehead and reinforced gun?

              The low modernization potential of the original T-34 in epaulet, transmission and suspension (both weight and weight distribution on the rollers) and, in general, some production problems in the 42nd year. No, the answer will not go?
              1. 0
                12 March 2019 09: 56
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                [

                The low modernization potential of the original T-34 in epaulet, transmission and suspension (both weight and weight distribution on the rollers) and, in general, some production problems in the 42nd year. No, the answer will not go?


                At the end of 44, most of the tanks on the eastern front were T-34-76.
                As a result, our medium tanks created a background noise on the battlefield under the balonon and oglonduv, looking at the 80mm forehead and the body of the fourth groove. Saved VET and the presence of ISs.
                1. 0
                  13 March 2019 23: 25
                  I would like to add a competent VET - tactics of fire bags and ambushes, plus the Germans still blamed the SU-100 for its failure.
                  The site Battlefield.ru has many photographs of German wrecked equipment from under Balaton.
              2. +2
                13 March 2019 10: 40
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                No, the answer will not go?

                You can argue about all the first points, except for the last reinforced concrete, about industry.
                With very weak artillery in all of 1942 (after losing 2/3 of the powder production), only tanks could break into field fortifications with a relatively low consumption of ammunition. Accordingly, the release of any tanks with a gun caliber from 76,2 mm determined the offensive capabilities of the Red Army. Considering that there are very few of those left after 1941, there were a number of first roles.
                Those. no restructuring of production was possible with the existing weak industry, otherwise it could reduce the production of tanks and lead to disaster on the fronts. And that was the right decision.
        3. +1
          12 March 2019 14: 45
          Quote: demiurg
          long-barrel 76mm cannon by the end of 43goda

          And what are you going to charge in a 50-caliber gun. There is little gunpowder in the old sleeve. The effect of the new trunk is small.
    4. +2
      12 March 2019 08: 40
      [/ quote] The Germans bore the ZiS-3 chamber, who prevented doing the same with the F-34? [quote]

      The fact of the matter is that not the ZIS-3 (there was no longer any reserve there), but the F-22.
    5. +5
      12 March 2019 08: 45
      Quote: demiurg
      I wonder why there were no "shielded" T-34s?

      There were. Only from 37 mm guns it was redundant, but from 50 and 75 mm it did not protect, therefore T-34 was refused shielding.
      Quote: demiurg
      Well, the second question is also to the universe. The Germans bore the ZiS-3 chamber, who prevented doing the same with the F-34?

      It interfered with the requirement to be able to use old-style cartridges and grenades from field three-inch guns in shots.
      Quote: demiurg
      And instead of light tanks of tanks with a magpie, do something like a hatzer? ZiS-2 chassis T-70 would withstand

      In 1941-1942 there were problems with the production of trunks for the ZIS-2, and there were a lot of forty-five and the production technology was debugged. And so, projects of a tank destroyer based on the t-70 chassis, including those with a 57 mm cannon, were developed in large quantities.
    6. +1
      12 March 2019 09: 20
      Quote: demiurg
      A bit of alternative.
      Was it really so difficult to weld or hang 20-30-40mm sheets on top of the VLD? On the SU-100 were able to strengthen the forehead to 75mm.

      the su-100 had to strengthen the suspension of the front rollers with a decrease in its service life. But basically, you're right
    7. BAI
      +6
      12 March 2019 10: 34
      I wonder why there were no "shielded" T-34s?


      “A special group of employees of NII-48 and Plant No. 112 was engaged in solving this issue under the general supervision of Colonel Engineer I. Burtsev.

      In the course of the work, a screening scheme was developed for 10- and 16-mm high-hardness armor plates, and the frontal part of the tank was free of screens. and the sides and stern of the hull and turret were protected by slanted mounted sheets of armor (above the so-called “fenders” or “fenders” of the hull) and sheets of armor hanging down outside the undercarriage (the vertical sides of the hull were sewn up). The screen was planned to be installed at a distance of 70-150 mm from the main armor. In addition, the nose beam T-34 was also protected by a corner screen. penetrated by armor-piercing 37-mm and 50-mm shell. Such shielding increased the mass of the T-34 by 3-3.5 tons.

      A life-size model of the shielded case was manufactured and tested in early 1943 and showed good results. But the tanks that were experimentally screened and thrown into battle were met with completely new anti-tank guns - the 75-mm RaK 40. against which the screens were ineffective. The specified guns fired with armor-piercing shells. which knocked down the screens and even pierced the frontal armor of the tank, which was previously practically invulnerable to the fire of 37-mm and 50-mm anti-tank guns. "
      1. BAI
        +4
        12 March 2019 10: 35


        These are the test results.
        1. 0
          12 March 2019 11: 29
          And is it worth spreading the news over the tank evenly with cardboard?
          The tank is standing on the enemy's forehead. Forehead and maximize.
          1. +5
            12 March 2019 17: 12
            Quote: demiurg
            The tank is standing on the enemy's forehead.

            So are self-propelled guns. And the tank is moving forward. At the same time, inevitably, under the fire of light anti-tank artillery, not only the side, but also the stern. When the sides and stern were reinforced with screens, the Germans by this time began to use heavier anti-tank artillery, which penetrated the tank from any angle, along with shielding. In this situation, speed and maneuverability came to the fore for a medium tank, so we had to abandon the screens in order to facilitate the tank
            1. 0
              13 March 2019 10: 43
              Quote: brn521
              but also poop.

              The stern is still shown by the tank, with a lack of transmission or crew qualifications. But the tank does show sides, avoiding obstacles and falling into fire bags, which is inevitable in the offensive.
    8. +1
      12 March 2019 11: 01
      Quote: demiurg
      I wonder why there were no "shielded" T-34s? Was it really so difficult to weld or hang 20-30-40mm sheets on top of the VLD? On the SU-100, they were able to strengthen the forehead up to 75mm. Even a 40mm sheet will give 1.5-2 tons of excess weight.

      Shielding kits did not have this thickness, usually 10 mm, the thickest 20 mm. Those. they weren’t protected from hull and anti-aircraft guns, and from the 37-50 mm guns the armor was tolerable until 1942 with the Pak-40. The complexity of production and hanging was significant.
      Quote: demiurg
      And instead of light tanks of tanks with a magpie, do something like a hatzer? ZiS-2 chassis T-70 would withstand.

      The frail Komsomolets, therefore, the ZIS-2 withstood, the SU-57 withstood the same chassis. And what is wrong with religion regarding the T-70?
      Quote: demiurg
      The Germans bore the ZiS-3 chamber, who prevented doing the same with the F-34? Turn over the sleeve from the 85mm gun, with a reduced filling. S-53 / D-5 on the armor became more or less massive only by the middle of 44 years. And the alteration from ZiS-3 could become massive already at the beginning of 43 years.

      The production of new types of cartridges was a great technological and resource problem in the USSR.
    9. +4
      12 March 2019 11: 30
      Quote: demiurg
      Well, the second question is also to the universe. The Germans bore the ZiS-3 chamber, who prevented doing the same with the F-34?

      The weapon you are proposing is called the S-54 - a 76-mm tank gun for a 76-mm anti-aircraft gun. I climbed into the "nut" tower. But according to the test results, it lost to the 85-mm cannon.
      The reason is simple: the main objective of the tank is the infantry of the enemy.
      Tanks do not fulfill their main task of destroying enemy infantry, but are distracted by the battle with enemy tanks and artillery. The established practice of opposing our enemy’s tank attacks and getting involved in tank battles is wrong and harmful.

      The corps should not get involved in tank battles with enemy tanks, unless there is a clear superiority over the enemy. In the event of encountering large enemy tank units, the corps detaches anti-tank artillery and part of the tanks against the enemy tanks, the infantry, in turn, puts forward its anti-tank artillery, and the corps, obscured by all these means, bypasses the enemy tanks with its main forces and hits the enemy infantry with the aim of tear it from enemy tanks and paralyze the actions of enemy tanks. The main task of the tank corps is the destruction of enemy infantry.
      © Order No. 325
      Increasing the initial velocity of the projectile while maintaining the caliber, we lose the power of the OFS. For the main body material is steel cast iron. And the higher the initial speed, the thicker the walls and less space for explosives.
      1. +3
        12 March 2019 14: 49
        Quote: Alexey RA
        For the main body material is steel cast iron. And the higher the initial speed, the thicker the walls and less space for explosives.

        The USSR is still in many ways a poor country, it is not possible to make all shells out of steel. Shell production, and so inferior to Germany in 2 times. And since the main projectile is the OFS, and it can be made of steel cast iron, they did so, which made it possible to make more shells on the existing equipment.
        1. +5
          12 March 2019 15: 08
          Quote: goose
          The USSR is still in many ways a poor country, it is not possible to make all shells out of steel.

          Yeah ... for example, in the USSR they lost a lot of time trying to reproduce the core of a sub-caliber projectile without using tungsten. Because:
          ... the core of the projectile must be made of a special alloy similar to that used by the Germans (about 75% tungsten, 2% cobalt and 4% carbon), otherwise it, being made even of high-carbon tool steel with a vanadium additive, will crumble into tiny pieces upon impact about the armor.
          At the same time, some employees of the UVNA and Artcom GAU began to insistently demand the reproduction of German shells, the cores of which are made of the above alloy. NII_24 objected to this, arguing that:
          1) we do not have tungsten reserves and therefore, even if favorable results are obtained, such shells will not have further practical introduction into production;
          2) the manufacture of such cores can only be carried out on grinding wheels, i.e. on equipment that is available in a few factories.
          However, in spite of this, the UAA GAU KA in its letter of 19 / IX-41 again raises the issue of manufacturing sub-caliber shells, citing the fact that the 3rd Department of the GAU KAA has an agreement with the Institute of Hard Alloys to produce the required amounts of alloy similar to that used in German samples.
          Our employee of the metal laboratory was also at this institute, where he was also told that, generally speaking, such an alloy can be made. However, V. Ya. at the same time explained at what price the alloy would be obtained. And the price is as follows. To produce just one core for a 76 mm projectile requires such an amount of alloy that will deprive at the same time 30 aircraft industry machines it will be victorious for the entire service life of these cutters!
          Comrade Lyagoshin, a representative of the GAU Artillery Committee, tried to prove that having "tested" an exact copy of the German shells, we will continue to look for substitutes for the components of these shells. But the engineer Lyagoshin, obviously, misunderstood that the main component of the alloy should be an element that, in combination with carbon, would have a specific gravity of 15,0 and a Rockwell hardness of about 80.
          (...)
          Director of NII-24 Averchenko
          Chief Designer of NII-24 Matyushkin
          © Ulanov
          Quote: goose
          And since the main projectile is the OFS, and it can be made of steel cast iron, they did so, which made it possible to make more shells on the existing equipment.

          The difference in strength between cast iron and steel hulls is clearly visible in the well-known report of the Research Institute-48 "Defeat of the armor of German tanks":
          High-explosive fragmentation steel grenade. It can be used when firing at light (in some cases medium) tanks during their oblique movement on the sides, or in the turret ring, which leads to the destruction of side sheets, or to their detachment from the mounts, as well as jamming of the tower and damage to the tower mechanisms.
          A cast iron fragmentation grenade can only be used when firing at a tank turret "for blinding" ...
    10. -1
      12 March 2019 21: 19
      The Germans bore the cam ZiS-3


      The Germans did not do this trick with Zis-3:

      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pak_36(r)

      Zu Beginn des Feldzuges gegen Rußland erbeutete die Wehrmacht große Mengen der russischen 7,62-cm-Kanone von 1936. Diese Kanonen wurden als 7,62-cm Feldkanone 296 (r) in das Heer übernommen. Da jedoch nicht genügend Munition für die Geschütze erbeutet werden konnte, beschloß man auf deutscher Seite, den Laderaum der Geschütze so aufzubohren, dass mit ihnen die Munition der deutschen 7,5-cm Pak 40denchoss. Diese Geschütze erhielten die Bezeichnung 7,62-cm-Pak 36. Die Patronen bestanden aus der Hülse der 7,5-cm Pak 40 und den Geschossen für die 7,62-cm Pak und waren gesondert gekennzeichnet. Außerdem erhielt die Waffe eine Mündungsbremse.
      Bei der Waffe handelte es sich um eine halbautomatische, schwere Schnellfeuerkanone mit Spreizlafette für Kraftzug. Die Waffen wogen 1.710 kg, hatten ein 4.179 mm langes Rohr (= 55 Kal). Das Seitenrichtfeld betrug 60 °, das Höhenrichtfeld -6 ° bis + 18 °. Die v0 betrug 740 m / Sek., Womit auf 1.000 m 82 mm Panzerung durchschlagen werden konnten. Mit der Panzergranate 40 mit Wolframkern Konnte die v0 auf 990 m / Sek. gesteigert werden, auf 1.000 m konnten 112 mm durchschlagen werden. Die Waffen wurden auf den Fahrgestellen des Panzers II Ausf. D 2 und dem Panzerkampfwagen 38 als Selbstfahrlafetten eingebaut.
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. +2
    12 March 2019 08: 32
    Thanks for the interesting review!
  9. +1
    12 March 2019 08: 36
    It should also be added that the process was being optimized. And often, such optimization could come at the expense of safety measures, for example, due to the fastening of parts.
  10. 0
    12 March 2019 08: 57
    Quote: demiurg
    And instead of light tanks of tanks with a magpie, do something like a hatzer? ZiS-2 chassis T-70 would withstand.

    Refer to the history of the T-60/70. This is the actual modernization of the T-40 amphibious tank, while the T-60 was developed in haste, since the factories producing the T-40 could not master the production of the larger and more complex T-50 (its production was evacuated from Leningrad and alas stopped). It is not entirely appropriate to compare what was created in the 41st and 44 years, the conditions and terms of development, to put it mildly, are different.
    1. 0
      12 March 2019 09: 04
      Hetzer’s legs grow out of a 38 year old Czech light tank, which initially weighed 9.7 tons. The T-70 weighed 9.2-9.8.
      1. +3
        12 March 2019 09: 18
        The legs then grow, but they only grew in 1944 and this is not a 1-2 month development, carried out under conditions of evacuation. Again, the Germans used the experience of actual war for their machine, in 1941 they had not yet accumulated it, and by the 43rd the T-70 had already been discontinued. In addition, the Germans posed slightly different tasks for their machine. T-60/70 is an light infantry support tank, it is needed to suppress a revived machine gun and cover its bullets as far as possible, the fight against enemy tanks was assigned to other vehicles.
        1. +2
          12 March 2019 09: 21
          A direct analogue, the unit, will at times be better at supporting infantry on the battlefield than an LT with a 45 mm cannon. And it will be much more universal. And due to the lack of a tower it’s cheaper.
          1. 0
            12 March 2019 09: 57
            Quote: demiurg
            A direct analogue, the unit, will at times support infantry on the battlefield better than an LT with a 45 mm cannon

            This is the Su-76.

            An analogue of Shtug (more precisely Shtuk) was the SU-122, but the Red Army did not give it infantry, it went to the RVGK. And the armor, again, is not that of the German VET.
            1. 0
              12 March 2019 10: 36
              Sturmgeschütz III (StuG III; Sturmgeshütz III, Shtug III) - Gepanzerte Selbstfahrlafette für Sturmgeschütz III mit 7,5-cm-Sturmkanone 37 oder 40.
              But the German tank builders did not get to the "pieces"! Their offspring did not "take off" into the heavens and did not dive into the "Mongoloid hordes".
              him. Stuka = ​​Sturzkampfflugzeug - dive bomber
              1. 0
                12 March 2019 10: 50
                Quote: hohol95
                Here the German tank builders did not reach the "pieces"!

                Caught.

                Meant to StuH 42.
          2. +2
            12 March 2019 10: 14
            We are talking about different things. Let's say "Hetzer" as a CCI is better than the T-60/70, please. 1941, you are the director of the plant, previously produced the T-40 (light amphibious tank with a machine gun), you are tasked with mastering the production of the T-50 as soon as possible (the tank is light, but twice more than the T-40), to produce it by your own plant you cannot, there is no personnel or equipment, and the country desperately needs tanks. And now, in a couple of months from what was, the T-60, with an aircraft cannon, went straight into production. Then, again in the harshest conditions of the outbreak of war, he upgrades it to the level of the T-70, already a fully combat-ready tank.
            I am sure that the Germans worked under different conditions, in addition, in the 44th experience of the war did its job. By the way, as rightly noted in other comments a 57mm gun on the t-70 and not only tried to put, it was not relevant for that time, but the 76mm ZiS-3 on the t-70 chassis took root (su-76).
  11. +4
    12 March 2019 09: 49
    I can’t hold back.
    “The design of the armored parts ... was carried out without taking into account the technological capabilities, as a result of which such parts were designed ... the manufacture of which would be impossible in mass production ...” At the same time, unfortunately, initially “... the production technology was designed for skilled workers who were able to machine complex parts of the tank in small batches using universal equipment, and the quality of processing depended on the skill of the worker”

    "An effective manager," they said. "There was order," they said.
    1. +5
      12 March 2019 09: 57
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      "An effective manager," they said. "There was order" - they said

      Quite right, there was an effective manager and order.
      Because to design a combat vehicle also taking into account the current state of the plant, or rather not even the current, but some future, and even taking into account the new technologies that may be introduced (and perhaps not), this is simply unrealistic. The manufacturer doesn’t really stand in place, his constant development goes.
      1. +3
        12 March 2019 10: 08
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Because designing a combat vehicle also taking into account the current state of the plant ... ... is simply unrealistic.

        "Techno-fetishist Wibikke made a wunderwafel that three factories can normally produce throughout the country," they said, "Whether it's a simple Soviet T-3 tank."

        And in terms of armor, is it not about the curved front armor plate, for an hour, speech?
        1. +1
          12 March 2019 11: 08
          A simple Soviet T-34 tank is different. "



          On the issue of self-sufficient fetishism ...



          Acutely necessary equipment is transferred from the other workshops to the mechanical workshop: -
          In April, the following machines were transferred to the mechanical workshop No. 10 from other workshops:

          1. Semi-automatic turning machine multi-cutter company Guishold 2 pcs.
          2. Vertical drilling. Firms Colburn 2 pcs
          3. Turning and rotary f. Bullard 1 pc
          4.Multi-cutter semiautomatic device head, .im.Ordzhonikidze 1 pc
          5. Horizon gear cutting company Barber-Colman 1 pc.
          6. Gear cutting company Gould-Zbergard 1 pc.
          7.Turning screw-cutting company Lang 1 piece "
          1. +1
            13 March 2019 10: 48
            Quote: Town Hall
            1. Semi-automatic turning machine multi-cutter company Guishold 2 pcs.
            2. Vertical drilling. Firms Colburn 2 pcs
            3. Turning and rotary f. Bullard 1 pc
            4.Multi-cutter semiautomatic device head, .im.Ordzhonikidze 1 pc
            5. Horizon gear cutting company Barber-Colman 1 pc.
            6. Gear cutting company Gould-Zbergard 1 pc.
            7.Turning screw-cutting company Lang 1 piece "

            What is so rare and complicated besides the hobbing machine? Judging by the description of the plant, there were more than 200 machines in each workshop where metalworking was carried out.
      2. 0
        12 March 2019 11: 50
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Quite right, there was an effective manager and order.


        There were attempts to organize order - there was a huge enthusiasm of individual designers and manufacturers, drowning in a bureaucratic swamp and driven by a repressive apparatus.
        In general - a bone clumsy system, sharpened for mass and low-quality production.
        Motors failed, planes fought en masse, tanks refused - the reason? Provide a shaft that can only be ensured by a drop in quality.
        The slogan - there are no irreplaceable people, led to the fact that professionalism was underestimated. - Adler Evgeny Georgievich (one of the leading designers of Yakovlev Design Bureau in
        Earth and Sky. Notes of an aircraft designer) - envy, flattery, and squealing - flourished in industry no less than in other industries and design bureaus.
        In the days of Stalin, they liked to give unrealistic deadlines for execution or development, as a result, the design errors were further eliminated.
        And what did it come from? Because the development path was not natural - instead of consistent research - on command from above, a heart-rending race began for Western developments that advanced ahead. For such a concept as initiative development, one could sit down or be shot in Stalin's times.
        In general, initiative development is the progress that was stopped by the Stalin centralized management system.
        Where could designer initiative be taken? - In rare competitions for a specific task.
        So this is not order - this is the appearance of order in hundreds of sugary memoirs of that time.
        1. +1
          13 March 2019 10: 31
          A year before the war, how things were with aviation technology:
          At the end of December 1940, Rychagov wrote a report to the NKAP to Shakhurin. It reports on the poor quality of aircraft products coming into service with the SC Air Force. 10 sheets provide specific examples of product quality. It is noted that the presence of a large number of design and especially manufacturing defects, with which factories produce engines and aircraft, reduces the combat effectiveness of the spacecraft air force, slows down combat training and leads to a large number of flight accidents in the troops.

          In particular, in 1940 there were failures:
          - 130 M-63 engines (2 crashes and 9 aircraft crashes);
          - 250 M-62 engines (14 aircraft crashed);
          - in 8 months 175 engines M-87A, M-87B failed;
          - in 7 months 139 M-88 engines failed,
          - 184 motors - M-103,
          Frequent destruction of the impeller of the AM-35 motor supercharger takes place, and changes in the design of the impeller made by the plant reduce the altitude by 600-700 m.

          The following are specific aircraft information: I-153, I-16, BB-1, SB, BB-22, DB-3, DB-ZF, TB-7, i.e. those whose production was considered already mastered.

          At the end of the report, Rychagov asks to take decisive measures against the production of poor-quality products by aircraft factories, as well as to inform the people's commissar on this issue.

          If we consider that in May 1940 Smushkevich complained to Shakhurin about the poor quality of I-16 M-63 aircraft, and in August 40 about a large number of M-88 motor accidents installed on the DB-ZF, we can conclude that all complaints of the Air Force were ignored.
      3. 0
        12 March 2019 13: 21
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        combat vehicle also taking into account the current state of the plant

        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        this is just unreal.

        From what? there is an example of Grabin! The gun is not a tank, of course, but the principles are the same ...
      4. +3
        12 March 2019 13: 25
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Because designing a combat vehicle also taking into account the current state of the plant, or rather not even the current, but some future, and even taking into account new technologies that may be introduced (and possibly not) is simply unrealistic.

        Greetings! hi
        The problem is this:
        “... the production technology was designed for skilled workers who could machine parts of the tank in small batches on universal equipment in small batches, and the quality of processing depended on the skill of the worker.”

        means a fundamental technological and constructive problem in the production of T-34, which does not depend on the equipment of the plant.
        In fact, it is said that the tank’s production technology and the design of some parts are designed for low-volume production of tanks by qualified specialists, and not for mass production.
        And I would very much like to know where designers and technologists planned to find in the USSR skilled workers in an amount sufficient to produce the T-34 in loaded Party and Government volumes? wink
    2. +6
      12 March 2019 12: 25
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      "An effective manager," they said. "There was order," they said.

      Everything is relative, dear colleague.
      Can you imagine the situation when Stalin called the deputy commissar for nanotechnology and asked: - Comrade Chubais, where did you get so much money that you spoke about at the rally devoted to the celebration of the New 1937 year?
      And that time a hand in a breeches pocket: - Vladimir Vissarionovich, take a look what a good light bulb!
      So I can’t.
    3. +1
      12 March 2019 17: 52
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      "An effective manager," they said. "There was order," they said.

      Our entire industry has developed like this. In 1,5-2 years everything would have been. Both personnel and equipment. And new tanks were needed - it was impossible to stand still, the weapons quickly became obsolete. By the beginning of the war, we were doing relatively well with tanks. The T-34 and KV represented a good force, subject to coordinated command and timely supply of spare parts, fuel and ammunition. But we sank in aviation and air defense. Initially, it was not assumed that the tanks would have to work for themselves and for "that uncle" in the conditions of transport and information collapse.
      1. 0
        12 March 2019 20: 17
        Quote: brn521
        With the beginning of the war, things were relatively good with tanks. T-34 and KV were not bad power, subject to a coordinated command and timely supply of spare parts, fuel and ammunition.

        What is it like? How Dubno - Lutsk - Brody?

        It seems that the author of the series of articles has written enough to understand: paper tanks and tanks on the battlefield are not the same thing.
      2. +2
        13 March 2019 11: 04
        Quote: brn521
        But we dipped in aviation and air defense.

        This is a consequence of a weak industrial base and a long trade blockade.
        In aviation, there was a shortage of aluminum (few power plants), a machinery stock - the production of complex machine tools in the USSR was just beginning. Therefore, there was no industrial base for the production of modern engines and skilled workers.
        The engines themselves adapted to low-octane gas because there wasn’t enough refineries, and they only started cracking and reforming technologies by 1935. By 1940, gas demand was satisfied by 80%, diesel fuel by 40%, and high-octane fuel by about 20%.
        The production of superchargers and turbochargers was hindered by the lack of high-quality bearings and special alloyed heat-resistant steels.
        In air defense, there was a failure in the field of radio electronics (it depended heavily on basic metallurgy, chemical industry and energy), the production of laboratory equipment was generally a disaster, it simply did not exist, and it was impossible to buy - sanctions. Air defense artillery experienced a shortage of rangefinders, poise and anti-aircraft shells themselves due to the weak colormet industry (copper was just beginning to be excavated and mined in insufficient quantities). The Norilsk Combine and the Kola Peninsula began to be mastered only in the late 20s, and it was expected to reach sufficient power (color) only by the end of the 1940s.
        But one thing was obvious progress - by the mid-30s, the lion's share of anarchist generations of NEPMans and civil war with terrible discipline and education were reformed into something more or less suitable, and the cadres, as you know, solved everything, even when there was not enough equipment, they worked in 3 shifts.
        1. +1
          13 March 2019 11: 27
          Quote: goose
          long trade blockade.

          How long is it long? How was the "blockade" expressed? Who, by the way, was involved in the blockade, maybe Germany?
          Quote: goose
          There was not enough aluminum in aviation (few power plants)

          How much Me109 was made in Germany at the end of the 41st year? How much aluminum did it take? How much aluminum was produced in the USSR in the 41st year?
          Quote: goose
          Therefore, there was no industrial base for the production of modern engines and skilled workers.

          How much did Emil give out? Late I-16? How much was this and that in the middle of the 41st year?
          Quote: goose
          The production of superchargers and turbochargers was hindered by the lack of high-quality bearings and special alloyed heat-resistant steels.

          Why do you need a turbocharger? When did he appear on German cars? What are the problems with superchargers and why do you need them?
          Quote: goose
          the production of laboratory equipment is generally a disaster, it simply wasn’t, and it was impossible to buy - sanctions

          What kind of sanctions? Whose?
          Quote: goose
          the anarchist generations of NEPMans and civil war with terrible discipline and education were reforged into something more or less suitable, and the cadres, as you know, solved everything, even when there was not enough equipment, they worked in 3 shifts.

          What are these Nepmans? At the 29th factory, or what?
          1. +1
            13 March 2019 11: 53
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            How long is it long? How was the "blockade" expressed? Who, by the way, was involved in the blockade, maybe Germany?

            Quote: Cherry Nine
            What kind of sanctions? Whose?

            A trade blockade was declared by the Entente countries and the United States, a complete ban on trade with the USSR, excluding the thin trickle of trade for wheat. They just stupidly did not sell anything, even in the late 20s, during the economic crisis. I think you knew about it.
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            How much Me109 was made in Germany at the end of the 41st year? How much aluminum did it take? How much aluminum was produced in the USSR in the 41st year?

            The production of aluminum in Germany in 1940 was three times higher than the production in the USSR (204 thousand tons against 59 thousand tons, excluding satellite production, with them the production of Germany by aluminum is another + 60 thousand tons). At the same time, 3/4 of aluminum production in the USSR was concentrated in the Dnieper hydroelectric station.
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Why do you need a turbocharger?

            To be able to shoot down the Ju-86 and B-17
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            What are these Nepmans? At the 29th factory, or what?

            The NEP was curtailed only in 1929, in fact, it lasted until in 1933. The mentality of people during the periods of the civil war, the post-war devastation and the NEP is used to distribution, a freebie, some kind of anarchy, lack of discipline, initiative and dependency. If you think that it is easy to change in 5-7 years, I sympathize with you.
            The problems with quality and professional growth in the production could not be solved for a long time precisely because of the mentality of workers.
            1. +1
              13 March 2019 12: 51
              Quote: goose
              They just stupidly did not sell anything, even in the late 20s, during the economic crisis. I think you knew about it.

              Are you talking about the difficult legacy of the dashing 20s? I didn’t think about it.
              Quote: goose
              German aluminum production in the 1940th

              I did not ask how much aluminum was produced by Germany, I asked how much aluminum Germany spent on fighter aircraft. And what was its production in the USSR.

              You gave the USSR number, I will tell you the Me109 number, 7.9 thousand from the start of production until the 41st year inclusive Emil’s empty weight is 1,84 tons.

              So. What are the problems with aluminum?
              Quote: goose
              / 4 aluminum production in the USSR was concentrated in the Dnieper hydroelectric station.

              What is this for? They didn’t use aluminum, because they give hydro-power plants to the fascists anyway?
              Quote: goose
              To be able to shoot down the Ju-86

              Did he have a turbocharger?
              Quote: goose
              and B-17

              With all the proletarian bluntness.
              Quote: goose
              The mentality of people during the periods of the civil war, the post-war devastation and the NEP is used to distribution, a freebie, some kind of anarchy, lack of discipline, initiative and dependency

              Freebie and dependency - this is about the periods of civil war, post-war devastation and the NEP? Golden was the time I watch.
  12. +1
    12 March 2019 10: 16
    Andrey, thank you for the articles ... everything is really interesting and meticulously sorted out. According to the comments, the less people know (let alone worked) about production, the "cooler" statements are, "what and how should have been done".
    here on the railway transport I have my hair stand on end-HOW it could be calculated without computers.
  13. BAI
    +4
    12 March 2019 10: 28
    Speaking about the number of machines, the author did not consider another way (which can be used to count the machines), about which he nevertheless said, but in a different plane.
    When the T-34 was put into service, it was ordered to carry out its production at the Kharkov and Stalingrad factories. Those. there were the necessary machines (the number is probably unknown). At the same time, KV-1 was produced by the Kirovsky plant - i.e. in 1940, 3 factories had the necessary equipment. In 1941, when the Kharkov plant went to the Urals, the production of the T-34 was ordered to be deployed at Krasny Sormov in Gorky - that is, another plant had the necessary machines - in total, at least 4 factories had the necessary machines and say that the machines there were only 2 for the entire USSR (extolling the role of Lend-Lease (it is also not worth reducing it)) - it is wrong. And 2 machines in the comments to an article by another author surfaced earlier.
    1. 0
      12 March 2019 10: 50
      Quote: BAI
      When taking the T-34 into service, it was prescribed to carry out its production at the Kharkov and Stalingrad plants. Those. there were the necessary machines (the quantity is probably unknown).




      Well, why. Very well known.




      In connection with the recalculation of the project for 2-shift operation of the plant, the need for purchased equipment increased from 282 to 376 machines. Received orders for 144 machines. 27 machine tools arrived at the factory. Of the required 46 turning and rotary machines, not a single one was received. Defective casting reaches 70%. The steel mill is still operating unsatisfactorily.





      Stankoimport should supply 1940 metal-cutting machines to the STZ in 80. At 20 / XI, 35 machines were confirmed (placed for import) with the following delivery rates:

      12 machines - in 1940

      2 machines - in the first quarter of 1941

      10 machines - in 2-3 quarters of 1941

      11 machines - in 1942

      The 1941 program will require 36 rotary machines. Machine shop No. 2, taking into account the relocated from other workshops, has only 16 rotary machines. Rotary machines were ordered to import in the amount of 30 pieces, but their delivery time (end of 1941) does not ensure the implementation of the program ”[84].


      Summary of the state of preparation of the means of production according to T-34 of November 20, 1940, TsAMO RF, f. 38, op. 11355, d.30, l. 162–164.
    2. +1
      12 March 2019 13: 29
      Quote: BAI
      When taking the T-34 into service, it was prescribed to carry out its production at the Kharkov and Stalingrad plants. Those. there were the necessary machines (the quantity is probably unknown).

      Avotfig. All that was on STZ was the semi-handicraft production of the T-26. On the basis of which they began to deploy the production line of T-34, at the same time ordering machines for it:
      To the existing equipment at STZ, it is necessary to purchase machine tools of various types of 250-260 pieces ... Of the required 253 machines specified in the attached application, 23 machines were delivered to the plant. Orders were placed for 37 machines ... The program for the production of T-34 parts for the month of June, which was launched by the shops and signed by the chief engineer of the plant, is not being implemented, since it is not provided with the appropriate means of production, metal, etc. ... The delivery workshop (building) was ready in 1939 with crane runways equipped for the production of T-26 machines. With the change in the production facility, the following priority works are required: laying a brick wall, finishing the re-equipment of crane tracks and self-tugging, installing a conveyor belt and a minimum of 3-4 30-ton cranes ... Currently, construction work has begun on the delivery workshop (breaking the old foundations for the conveyor, laying a new foundation), but the work is slow. The required material ... is missing. From among the required 10 cranes ... the plant has an agreement with the plant to them. Kirov on delivery in the IV quarter of this year 2 taps ...
      © Ulanov / Shein
      1. BAI
        0
        12 March 2019 15: 45
        It does not follow from this that there were no rotary machines.
        1. +1
          12 March 2019 15: 52
          Quote: BAI
          It does not follow from this that there were no rotary machines.

          In connection with the recalculation of the project for a 2-shift plant operation, the need for purchased equipment increased from 282 to 376 machines. Received orders for 144 machines. 27 machine tools arrived at the factory. Of the required 46 turning and rotary machines, not a single one was received ...

          © "Summary of the state of preparation of the means of production according to T-34" dated August 19, 1940
          The 1941 program will require 36 rotary machines. Machine shop No. 2, taking into account relocated from other workshops, has only 16 rotary machines. The rotary machines were ordered to import in the amount of 30 pieces, but their delivery time (end of 1941) does not ensure the implementation of the program ...

          © "Summary of the state of preparation of capital goods according to T-34" dated November 20, 1940
          1. BAI
            0
            12 March 2019 17: 16
            Nevertheless, soon it was already:
            Machine shop No. 2, taking into account the relocated from other workshops, has only 16 rotary machines.

            And you can - as many as 16 machines.
            1. -1
              12 March 2019 17: 23
              Quote: BAI
              Nevertheless, soon it was already:
              Machine shop No. 2, taking into account the relocated from other workshops, has only 16 rotary machines.

              And you can - as many as 16 machines.





              Do you have any particularly sophisticated trolling style like this?)
              1. 0
                13 March 2019 11: 12
                Quote: Town Hall
                Do you have any particularly sophisticated trolling style like this?)

                A colleague recalled that this is not Germany with an annual production of 200 tanks. Here they wanted to produce so much in a month. Because there were a lot of machines. And if there were fewer of them, this would not mean that it was impossible to produce a tank, and only that the number would be slightly lower.
        2. 0
          13 March 2019 11: 10
          Quote: BAI
          It does not follow from this that there were no rotary machines.

          No need to overestimate the administration of that time. Often there were times when valuable equipment was idle. The information order was not the best level. Traveling groups of industrialists constantly traveled around the country, jackal machines in factories.
          Do not underestimate the heads of factories - the specific princes of that time, with whom it was not easy to agree on the transfer of equipment.
          1. 0
            13 March 2019 12: 15
            Quote: goose
            Do not underestimate the heads of factories - the specific princes of that time, with whom it was not easy to agree on the transfer of equipment.

            And you shouldn't underestimate the skilled workers, who in the 30s felt very at ease and, at the slightest dissatisfaction, moved from factory to factory without prior notice. Famous Decree "On the transition to the eight-hour working day, the seven-day working week and on the prohibition of unauthorized departure of workers and employees from enterprises and institutions"I just stopped the established practice when, to fire a worker, he simply did not have to go to work. Neither the application, nor the approval from the director, he just left for a new job, and from the old you will be fired automatically for absenteeism. There are few workers, then in the new place they will not look too much at the reason for the dismissal, but will rejoice at the acquisition of a specialist.
            1. -2
              13 March 2019 13: 00
              Quote: Alexey RA
              As a result, the implementation of the plan depended on the mood of a qualified specialist.

              Again the Father and the Genius got a lousy folk, well, what will you do!
  14. +1
    12 March 2019 10: 30
    Of course, dramatically simplifying the design and technology of the “thirty-four,” we managed to drastically reduce its cost

    In those years, it was envisaged an annual reduction in the cost of defense products by 15%, the standard was valid until the mid-60s.
    This norm was an incentive to optimize the design and improve technology, stimulating the transition to mass production technology.
    From the moment this standard was canceled - the military-industrial complex plants became "fat cats", ceased to strive to reduce costs and savings.
    1. +1
      12 March 2019 12: 02
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      In those years, it was envisaged an annual reduction in the cost of defense products by 15%,



      There is an economy that is saving .. and there is an economy that is "Sormovsky freak"
    2. +1
      13 March 2019 18: 11
      In those years, it was provided annual cost reduction defense products by 15%, the standard was valid until the mid-60s.
      This norm was an incentive to optimize the design ...

      It wasn’t any such "incentive", this rate was put in the initial price (overstating) so that they could then "reduce". As a result, the plant received inflated revenue for several years.
  15. +2
    12 March 2019 10: 34
    Quote: demiurg
    A direct analogue, the unit, will at times be better at supporting infantry on the battlefield than an LT with a 45 mm cannon.

    And where to get the chassis for the "direct analogue of the shtug" in the USSR? The chassis of the T-40 76mm cannon will not pull the cannon, and the maximum that turned out was the SU-76. No anti-cannon armor.
    Quote: demiurg
    And it will be much more universal. And due to the lack of a tower it’s cheaper.

    No, it will not be universal, because a tank already has such a gun. Not even cheaper, as the Germans understood by analyzing the release figures for self-propelled guns based on the T-3 and T-4. In the USSR, it was believed that to combat field fortifications, at least 107 ... 122 mm was needed, and this is SU-122 on the T-34 chassis. In the USSR there was no chassis in the weight of 15 ... 20t. T-50 died in the bud.
    1. +2
      12 March 2019 11: 09
      Quote: DesToeR
      T-50 died in the bud.

      The desired B4 engine has died - half of the B2, a very necessary weight range, especially for tractors.
  16. -1
    12 March 2019 10: 38
    Recall that the applications for 1941 for the purchase of imported equipment of plants No. 183 and 75, as well as STZ did not contain rotary-boring machines



    Rotary machines ordered for import in the amount of 30 pieces, but their delivery time (end of 1941) does not ensure the implementation of the program ”[84].


    Summary of the state of preparation of the means of production according to T-34 of November 20, 1940, TsAMO RF, f. 38, op. 11355, d.30, l. 162–164.
    1. BAI
      0
      12 March 2019 16: 24
      I don’t know if we are reading one source, but about the same STZ:
      The criterion of truth is practice. The "practice" of the STZ, that is, the delivery of T-34 tanks, was as follows: in 1940, the Stalingrad Tractor Plant did not surrender a single T-34 tank.

      The first two tanks were delivered in January 1941 (no tanks were removed from the factory) [87]. In February 1941 the STZ surrendered 28 tanks (tanks were still not removed from the factory) [88], in March 1941 - 45 vehicles with the planned assignment of 30 tanks (the first 30 Stalingrad “thirty-four” went into the army in the first ten days of March) [89], in April - 63 tanks with a plan of 55 (44 tanks removed from the factory) [90], in May - 70 “thirty-four” with a plan of 60 (82 cars removed from the factory) [91], for the “thunderstorm” June ”- 86 tanks with a plan of 75 (90 vehicles removed from the factory) [92].

      We see that from March 1941 the STZ exceeded the plan for tanks. So the necessary machines in the right amount were delivered and worked.
      https://arsenal-info.ru/b/book/3360789293/4

      By the way, why did you indicate that you need to order 30 machines, but didn’t mention about the 16 available?
      “The plant’s management prepared the first three cars for the factory run for the October holidays, but due to the lack of tanks, tubes and a number of other small parts of the press shop, the cars were not assembled and the mileage did not take place. The factory mileage of these vehicles is expected around November 15–16 of this month. Of the 25 loaded L-11 guns to date, not a single one has been received.

      Stankoimport should supply 1940 metal-cutting machines to the STZ in 80. At 20 / XI, 35 machines were confirmed (placed for import) with the following delivery rates:

      12 machines - in 1940

      2 machines - in the first quarter of 1941

      10 machines - in 2-3 quarters of 1941

      11 machines - in 1942

      The 1941 program will require 36 rotary machines. Machine shop No. 2, taking into account the relocated from other workshops, has only 16 rotary machines. Rotary lathes were ordered for import in the amount of 30 pieces, but their delivery time (end of 1941) does not ensure the implementation of the program ”[84].


      1. 0
        12 March 2019 16: 50
        Transfer from other machine shops is called a solution to your problem? ... Trishkin kaftan is called.


        These miserable (by Soviet) standards, this is the maximum that the plant could give out with a shortage of everything and everything. Compare them with the numbers a couple of years later when the shortage of machines was covered by land lease.



        As for the "overfulfillment" of the plan in the Soviet way .... it is easy to understand due to what. First of all, due to the quality. And secondly, they completely scored on such a trifle as the production of spare parts for tanks. Remind me how it turned out later?
        1. +3
          13 March 2019 11: 18
          Quote: Town Hall
          Remind me what happened later?

          Considering that factories before the war practically did not produce spare parts, but only finished tanks (in Germany, the production of spare parts was comparable in cost to finished products, and even more), it is worth recognizing half of the Red Army tanks for 1941 as a mobile set of spare parts, and not tanks . A sharp increase in the production of spare parts was already begun in 1941, but in reality the situation changed noticeably only by the end of 1942.
          There are 2 minutes of meetings, 1938 and 1940 about the catastrophic shortage of spare parts, decisions were made, but the resistance of the plant managers led to the fact that the size of the placed orders for spare parts was scanty and low priority. Those. their KPI was not affected in any way, with an appropriate attitude.
          1. +1
            13 March 2019 11: 39
            it is worth recognizing half of the tanks of the Red Army for 1941 the mobile set of spare parts, and not tanks
            .


            Everything is much worse. In tanks there were critical places, let's say so. Parts and assemblies that broke down quickly and on ALL tanks were air filters, clutches, etc. So even cannibalization could not be carried out.
  17. 0
    12 March 2019 10: 51
    Quote: demiurg
    What prevented the USSR from making a part of the T-34 with a reinforced forehead and reinforced gun?

    So nothing got in the way. Only the military rejected all this happiness, because a new 76mm gun would use cartridges similar in size to an 85mm anti-aircraft gun. And since the size of the guns in the reserved volume of the tower was directly dependent on the size of the shell, it was decided that it was better to design a tank version of the 85mm gun in comparable dimensions. I still had to increase the epaulet.
  18. +1
    12 March 2019 11: 08
    Recall that the applications for 1941 for the purchase of imported equipment of plants No. 183 and 75, as well as STZ did not contain rotary-boring machines. And this despite the fact that the plant number 183 was supposed to begin production of the T-34M with a wide shoulder of the tower in 1941, and the STZ was required to be ready to launch the T-34 in series starting from January 1, 1942.

    So STZ in 1941 has not yet received the machines on the previous order.
    In connection with the recalculation of the project for a 2-shift plant operation, the need for purchased equipment increased from 282 to 376 machines. Received orders for 144 machines. 27 machine tools arrived at the factory. Of the required 46 turning and rotary machines, not a single one was received ...
    © "Summary of the state of preparation of means of production for the T-34" dated August 19, 1940,
    The 1941 program will require 36 rotary machines. Machine shop No. 2, taking into account relocated from other workshops, has only 16 rotary machines. The rotary machines were ordered to import in the amount of 30 pieces, but their delivery time (end of 1941) does not ensure the implementation of the program ...
    © "Summary of the state of preparation of means of production for the T-34" of November 20, 1940,
  19. +2
    12 March 2019 11: 20
    The fact is that constant changes in design and technology, as well as adaptation of the tank design to the capabilities of each particular plant, led to the fact that the T-34 had the same production time, but different plants or different batches of the same plant often were far from identical cars .

    This can be seen especially well from the towers. Not only did almost every plant that produced the T-34 had its own tower design (and sometimes more than one - for example, the welded and cast towers of the Kharkov T-34s), so it could still receive towers developed by other factories (Chelyabinsk T-34 with a "mold" for the development and production of UZTM, which they continued to do even after UZTM switched to the production of ACS).
    1. +1
      12 March 2019 14: 14
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Especially well seen in the towers.

      That's right :)
  20. -2
    12 March 2019 11: 26
    Quote: DesToeR

    Only the military rejected all this happiness, because .....
    ...... The epaulette had to be increased anyway.

    Well done. And until the moment when the epaulette was increased, and the new tank will become a mass war in the troops
    in the west is over. And 90% of the tanks traveling around Berlin were T-34-76.
    1. +3
      12 March 2019 18: 45
      Quote: demiurg
      And 90% of the tanks traveling around Berlin were T-34-76.

      Where did these numbers come from? Take the basis of the tank forces of the Berlin operation - tank armies:
      In total, by April 14, 1945, as part of the 1st Guards. the tank army, there were 292 T-34–85, 42 IS-2, 21 ISU-122, 14 SU-85, 27 SU-100, 39 SU-76 and 70 SU-57.

      2nd Guards the tank army at the beginning of the Berlin operation had 685 combat vehicles (310 T-34, 33 IS-2, 184 M4A2, 41 SU-122, 46 SU-100, 15 SU-85 and 56 SU-76).

      By the beginning of the Berlin operation as part of the 3rd Guards. the tank army, there were serviceable 397 T-34–85, 12 T-34–76, 22 IS-2, 51 ISU-122, 39 SU-100, 27 SU-85, 45 SU-76 and 39 SU-57.

      In total, the beginning of the Berlin operation as part of the 4th Guards. of the tank army, there were 412 serviceable tanks and self-propelled guns (265 T-34, 26 IS-2, 10 ISU-122, 2 SU-122, 28 SU-100, 10 SU-85, 27 SU-76,48 SU-57 and 1 Valentine)
      The 91st Tank Regiment was the only part of the 4th Guards. tank army, in which they had T-34–76 tanks, all the rest were rearmament on T-34–85. For minesweeper tanks, the cannon was not the main “tool”, and a long barrel would only interfere with mines being blown up.

      © Isaev
  21. +1
    12 March 2019 11: 33
    Excellent article
  22. +2
    12 March 2019 12: 02
    it should not be considered that to process the tank epaulette it was necessary to pile an entire tower onto a rotary-boring machine. After all, the tower shoulder strap was one of its parts, and, as can be seen in the photo of those years, it was processed separately from the tower. So, for example, in the photograph of a turning-rotary machine given earlier.

    As I understand it, in both photos the processing of the lower part of the shoulder strap, and not the upper.
    The shoulder straps themselves are individual parts, bolted, so theoretically they can be installed separately and replaced.

    The only question is whether it is possible with a given accuracy to set the shoulder strap in place.
    The rotation mechanism looks like this

    That is, the drive itself is attached to the tower, and the gear is cut on the lower shoulder strap.
    So in theory, the processing of shoulder straps can go separately.
    But one question arises - do you need to process the seats for shoulder straps?
    Then the tower will have to pile on the machine.
    and 2 question - it cannot be argued that machines with processing quality suitable for processing wheeled wagons are suitable for processing shoulder straps. The accuracy of processing and quality of the machines varies greatly, the machine is different for the machine, not only in geometric dimensions.
    1. +6
      12 March 2019 13: 04
      On turning-and-boring lathes for processing railway tires tires neither shoulder straps, nor towers are processed.
      These are highly specialized turning and rotary machines, designed for high-performance machining of the bore hole in the hub and the bandage of the wheels of the wagons and traction rolling stock using special technological equipment, special clamping devices and special mandrels for roughing and finishing.

      In those years, the machine looked something like this.
      Special turning and rotary one-rack-mount machine 150Sh. Designed for machining solid-rolled railway wheels.
      1. +1
        12 March 2019 18: 22
        Quote: Decimam
        On turning-and-boring lathes for processing railway tires tires neither shoulder straps, nor towers are processed.

        This is all beautiful, with one exception.
        In TKS, as elsewhere, there were specialized machines, for specific products (or a limited set of those), an example of which you brought. And there were universal machines on which you can do whatever your heart desires, restrictions only on the size and mass that clap in them.
        So, we do not know what machines were purchased for our plants. I can only say that the unification of the machines began, for the most part, already closer to the Second World War and during it, and before that universals could easily be purchased for specific operations. And after that - no one canceled the double appointment
        1. 0
          12 March 2019 19: 41
          Not a tank book, but also about the industry of the USSR
          The aircraft industry of the USSR in 1921-1941 / M.Yu. Mukhin
          eat freely on the net.
          It indicates a shortage of personnel of especially highly qualified, so the management was forced to order highly specialized machines and equipment. One of the reasons for the very difficult development of new products by Soviet factories.
          According to one delegate, at German aircraft engine plants the equipment mainly consists of universal machines, thanks to which a quick transfer of production from one type to another is possible24. However, to work on universal machines and the worker had to have a relatively high qualification
  23. +2
    12 March 2019 13: 12
    Thanks to the author for his scientific integrity! At the same time, it is necessary to realize how many gaps in the history of technology in Russia ... and they write, basically, about the same thing - t-34, KV, IS ... bully
    “But remember that the production volumes for 1941 did not boggle the imagination at all: 1 tanks for plant No. 800 and 183 tanks for STZ. This is only 1 and 000 vehicles per month on average.” If you compare with Germany, they are amazing ... bully
    By the way, Svirin’s well-described reduction in the complexity of heat treatment of armored vehicles with its optimization with a slight decrease in armor resistance!
    1. 0
      12 March 2019 18: 23
      Quote: ser56
      Thanks to the author for the scientific integrity!

      Thank you, we try :)))) And take note of the constructive criticism
      1. 0
        12 March 2019 18: 28
        I hope in metrology? hi
  24. +3
    12 March 2019 13: 49
    I do not want to offend the author, who sincerely seeks to open the topic, but the question with the machines, alas, has hardly moved. That is, the question - on what machines and with what parameters in the USSR did the processing of shoulder straps of tank towers remain open. Obviously, the topic requires a separate, qualified study involving archives, since many points cannot be clarified without them.
    For an example - a note, in appearance - from a Soviet newspaper.

    The organism that posted it from the site Glavmex.ru "conspired" the source of its innermost knowledge, therefore neither the place, nor the time, nor the source are indicated. The only thing that can be accurately determined from the photograph is that the diameter of the faceplate is 2540 mm.
    1. -1
      12 March 2019 14: 00
      If it’s not difficult. What year is the newspaper? And then a man in a suit is like. In the days of Stalin more than a service jacket


      PS. Judging by the complete absence of even hints of relations about ... the labor exploits of Soviet machine tool builders ... of that period, most likely all the less or more complex machine tools were imported.
      1. +1
        12 March 2019 14: 04
        Read my next comment.
        1. +1
          12 March 2019 14: 18
          Thank you!


          All the excerpts that can be found on the machines - the picture is about the same in terms of belonging according to their "nationality". Like here:


          In April, the following machines were transferred to the mechanical workshop No. 10 from other workshops:

          1. Semi-automatic turning machine multi-cutter company Guishold 2 pcs.
          2. Vertical drilling. Firms Colburn 2 pcs
          3. Turning and rotary f. Bullard 1 pc
          4.Multi-cutter semiautomatic device head, .im.Ordzhonikidze 1 pc
          5. Horizon gear cutting company Barber-Colman 1 pc.
          6. Gear cutting company Gould-Zbergard 1 pc.
          7.Turning screw-cutting company Lang 1 piece "


          PS about the screen of your article of this one. The dot was a bit after the title of the article. As far as I remember, the Soviet newspapers were not put up. The truth is I only read them in the late Soviet period)
          1. +2
            12 March 2019 15: 45
            I wrote that the newspaper is supposedly. It can be a journal or a textbook. and technical brochure. There are simply people who are very afraid to share the source, as in this case.
            1. +1
              12 March 2019 17: 02
              You manage to find often a lot of informative and rare. hi
    2. +4
      12 March 2019 14: 02
      If we conduct a small investigation, we will find out that Betts Machine Co. - American, from New York, founded in 1860 by Edward T. Betts and his brother Alfred Betts.
      In 1922, Betts Machine Co. teamed up with Colburn Machine Tool Co, Hilles and Jones Co, Modern Tool Co. and Newton Machine Tool Works to form the United Machine Tool Corporation of Rochester, New York.
      And the machine in the "conspiratorial" photo was made no later than 1930, because a photo of a similar machine can be found in the Museum of Science and Technology in Chicago, where it is indicated that this unit belongs to the 1930 model range.

      Obviously, the USSR bought these machines. How many and when and for which factories - you need to look in the archives. If the author does not have such an opportunity, it is better to close the question and not make assumptions.
    3. +1
      12 March 2019 14: 13
      Quote: Decimam
      I do not want to offend the author, sincerely seeking to open the topic, but the issue with the machines, alas, almost did not move

      So I wrote that the issue with the production of TKS with a large faceplate in the USSR remains debatable
      1. +3
        12 March 2019 14: 30
        It is, of course, debatable. But if you seriously strain yourself, having even sat over the filings of Soviet pre-war newspapers, which is available, you can clearly see the conclusion that these machines were not produced in the USSR and that "import substitution" took place already in the post-war years.

        Here is another photo of the machine with a faceplate 2540 mm. Production - King Machine Tool Co.,
        Cincinnati, Ohio, USA.
        Such machines can be found in the 1940 catalog, Vertical Boring and Turning Machines, from King Machine Tool Company.
        That is, such machines were purchased, moreover, before the Second World War. Similar information can be found on German machines.
        1. 0
          12 March 2019 18: 18
          Quote: Decimam
          But if you seriously strain yourself, having even sat over the filings of Soviet pre-war newspapers, which is available, then you can clearly see the conclusion that these machines were not produced in the USSR and "import substitution" took place already in the post-war years.

          Let's say. let's see how you approve it
          Quote: Decimam
          But if you seriously podnipryatsya, after sitting over the files of the Soviet pre-war newspapers,

          What will we see? What tks procured abroad. So it is understandable, it was necessary for the industry to work on something before the release of domestic machine tools, and even if TKS with a 1,45 and 2 m faceplate went into the 1940 g series, they clearly did not have time to fully meet the need.
          And where is the proof that we did not manufacture such machines? He's not around. For this you need to find accurate data on the release of the same plant Sedov, or something similar
          1. 0
            12 March 2019 18: 54
            Where to look for evidence, I outlined in the previous comments.
            By the way, in the same newspapers the release of such machines, if it was, must be mentioned, the Soviet press followed this strictly.
            You can go to the Sedin factory, perhaps something is preserved in their archives.
            If this is for you, of course, it is interesting and there is time for this.
            1. 0
              12 March 2019 22: 42
              I wonder what kind of creation minus technical comments? Recently, the site clearly observed the presence of inadequate creatures.
      2. BAI
        0
        12 March 2019 16: 06
        the issue with the production of TKS with a large faceplate in the USSR remains controversial

        In 1937, 2 turning and rotary machines (Sedina plant) with a processing diameter of 2000 mm were produced in the USSR. Model 152 with a production plan of 80-100 units per year.
        You can see here:
        https://docviewer.yandex.ru/view/0/?*=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&page=2&lang=ru
        Strange link, but could it be so ?:
        Stanor for t-34.pdf
        This is a document from tms.ystu.ru
        1. 0
          12 March 2019 18: 19
          Quote: BAI
          You can see here:

          No need, this is incorrect information.
    4. +5
      12 March 2019 16: 04
      Sergey Ageev Yuri Bril
      Unknown Uralmash
      Chapters from the book
      There were, for example, portable machines designed to process large parts, the machine mounted on such a part and processed it. In the group of milling machines was a machine with a milling length of 5 meters. And which machine could clamp a colossus weighing 50 tons? One of the seven “Wagners” that existed then in the world now stood in a mechanical, boring machine, with a bed of 37 meters. He had 4 grandmothers and 5 calipers. He was served by his own electrical substation. The planing group also had a unique machine. The planing length of this machine is 12 meters. Width - 5, carrying capacity - 120 t. Among the lathes was Kalmag, a machine with a center height of 1,5 meters and a distance of 6 meters between them. Finally, the Schiss Defreeze rotary machine with a faceplate diameter of 6,5 meters. At the rally on the day of the opening of the workshop, a presidium of 50 people freely fit in it. The workshops have a rich crane economy. There are 27 bridge cranes and six side cranes in the steel shop. Many technological processes
      mechanized. The forging shop, commissioned by another 50 percent, was supposed to develop a capacity of 60 tons of forgings. At that time, the largest American company, Ira-Ford, produced only 000 tons of forgings per year. According to agitators, the country should have forgotten about a pick and a shovel forever.
  25. -4
    12 March 2019 14: 00
    Thanks to the author for the series of articles! Thank you very much!
    And to some commentators and "experts" - if you are so fucking smart and technically competent and educated, why are you here, and not in the shops and not in the design bureau, new tanks and armored vehicles do not?
    And try to tell us about the wisdom of technological boys and minors and women who worked in factories ... often under the open sky, hungry, cold
    1. +2
      12 March 2019 14: 34
      Well, why is this hysterical? Why interfere in a bunch of "wisdom" technologies, which are devoted to the article and which are clarified in the comments and the heroism of the Soviet people, who forged Victory in the rear with children and women, and which is beyond doubt?
      1. 0
        12 March 2019 14: 46
        And there’s no hysteria, and my commentary is mainly devoted to those comments given below after the article, and in my opinion it’s wrong to separate the technological process of weapons production, including tanks and heroism of working people
        1. +4
          12 March 2019 14: 51
          Quote: Andrey VOV
          it is wrong to separate the technological process of the production of weapons, including tanks and heroism of working people

          Technological process necessary to separate from the heroism of the people of work. Otherwise hackers -
          designers and technologists will hide behind children, and not only in the 40s.
          1. -1
            12 March 2019 14: 57
            not a single designer and technologist in those years hid behind the fact that children and women worked at the factory, it’s easy for you to stigmatize people sitting in warm, well-fed, well-dressed, shod people, calling them a hack worker, if I looked at you in those conditions at that time and in those circumstances, and that baggage of knowledge and the level of technology and production
            1. +3
              12 March 2019 15: 23
              Quote: Andrey VOV
              this is for you sitting in a warm, well-fed, well-dressed, shod

              Yeah. Due to the fact that I am shod and dressed, the T-34 will become a technological machine.
              Engineering and technical personnel, craftsmen and adjusters had experience in small-scale production. The coefficient of equipment of technological processes was low ... which caused the presence of a significant number of manual preparatory work on the assembly of units and machines ... The technological process was built on the principle of enlarged operations. The location of the equipment in the main tank division 100 was a group arrangement, which created excessive cargo flows of parts. ” In general, the production of T-34 tanks in Kharkov was mastered only thanks to the highest qualifications of workers and engineers.

              By the way. And what kind of circumstances in 38-41 in Kharkov are so impossible? Why didn’t they bring food to KB-24?
              1. -1
                12 March 2019 15: 27
                You are full and shod, because our grandfathers fought on such technologically advanced machines. You, well-fed and shod and probably with a higher technical education, have you invented yourself, created, made any innovations or have a patent? Yes, a raw machine, but that time, and in that place, as they say, there was no other
                1. +2
                  12 March 2019 15: 41
                  No, you definitely have a hysteria, accompanied by claims of a completely fantastic plan.
                  1. -1
                    12 March 2019 15: 49
                    Dear, I’m not a young lady of any kind in order to hysteria for any reason, and I’m not making any complaints, and how to get into a dialogue or discussion like this, without the permission of the parties, to put it mildly, not quite correctly
                    1. +1
                      12 March 2019 15: 52
                      I'm not a young lady of muslin
                      Right !?
                2. +3
                  12 March 2019 15: 45
                  Quote: Andrey VOV
                  there was no other

                  And how did it happen that there was no other? More precisely, the car was like that, and not another? The quoted considerations of the Tagil people - were they unknown to the Kharkiv? Women and children in roofless workshops - the answer to all questions?
                  1. -1
                    12 March 2019 15: 51
                    It turned out as it turned out, people were placed in certain conditions, yes, and then and now there must have been a certain lobbyism of the interests of various design bureaus and sharashka ... in the aircraft industry this was more clearly seen by the example of Tupolevites
            2. +4
              12 March 2019 16: 03
              Please tell me what baggage of knowledge prevented the designers and technologists of that time from understanding that in their own factory no skilled workers, who are able to machine parts of a tank in small batches on universal equipment in an amount sufficient to organize mass production of the tank?
              Why did the same Grabin design bureau work when designing in conjunction with the mass production technologists?
              1. -2
                12 March 2019 16: 08
                There were deadlines and plans, and in those days they were punished for their breakdown so that it won’t seem too much, it’s also surely not to be discounted, and they tell the higher management, our factory workers are unskilled and I won’t be able to do this and that .. where would they be? or vice versa, ideas and intentions and faith in professionalism failed.
                We can now discuss for as long as we like why this way or that way or not at all .. but what was done was done.
                1. +5
                  12 March 2019 16: 40
                  Quote: Andrey VOV
                  but what was done was done.

                  So it is necessary to understand what, how and why it was done. And it’s not about the labor feat of the people to start, just about what’s wrong.
                  1. -1
                    12 March 2019 16: 52
                    And I believe that one should never forget about the labor feat in those days, and the truth why it was done this way or that, after 80 years is unlikely to be found
                2. +2
                  12 March 2019 17: 08
                  Quote: Andrey VOV
                  There were deadlines and plans, and in those days they were punished for their failure so that little would seem

                  And who was punished for the fact that in 1940 the KhPZ produced 115 T-34s with a plan of 500 tanks?
                  Quote: Andrey VOV
                  and tell them to the higher management, at our factory the workers are unskilled and I can’t do this and that .. where would they be?

                  But what, take on a plan to produce 500 tanks according to the existing design documentation and TD - and fulfill it by 23%, is it better? Moreover, the army sent 80% of the released tanks back to the factory under warranty.

                  And yet, why did Grabin’s design bureau not shamefully work together with technologists of serial production, and Koshkin / Morozov, judging by the technology, the technologist, if he had one, was from an experimental workshop?
                  1. +3
                    12 March 2019 17: 23
                    Then you need to ask the factory’s management about the gearboxes for BT-7 tanks -
                    The mechanical power train consisted of a multi-disc main clutch of dry friction (steel on steel), a four-speed gearbox (starting in 1937, a three-speed manual gearbox was installed on the tanks),

                    After all, this bosses "cried" over the difficulties with the production of 4 mortars and persuaded the military to use 3-step boxes!
                    1. +2
                      12 March 2019 19: 39
                      Quote: hohol95
                      Then you need to ask the plant’s management about gearboxes for BT-7 tanks

                      And the management of the plant in response will describe the situation at the plant.
                      Uv. M. Svirin at the Sadden-strike once gave a picture of the KhPZ in 1936-1938. Engineers - the cat cried (I had to close some of the positions with a "landing" with VAMM), skilled workers - a thin layer, measuring instruments - you will not find with fire during the day. Making something more complicated than BT - as in the best years of handicraft production, finishing in place and manual fitting.
                    2. +2
                      13 March 2019 05: 35
                      Quote: hohol95
                      Then you need to ask the factory’s management about the gearboxes for BT-7 tanks -
                      The mechanical power train consisted of a multi-disc main clutch of dry friction (steel on steel), a four-speed gearbox (starting in 1937, a three-speed manual gearbox was installed on the tanks),

                      After all, this bosses "cried" over the difficulties with the production of 4 mortars and persuaded the military to use 3-step boxes!

                      It was a completely different matter.
                      1. -1
                        13 March 2019 12: 34
                        It was a completely different matter.

                        Educate us about what made it difficult for the plant to produce 4-speed gearboxes for BT-7 tanks!
                      2. 0
                        13 March 2019 17: 16
                        Quote: hohol95
                        It was a completely different matter.

                        Educate us about what made it difficult for the plant to produce 4-speed gearboxes for BT-7 tanks!

                        Even, old man, I don’t remember when we grazed the pigs together, or drank there for brotherhood. But if you want to communicate on "you", then if you please.

                        I’ll enlighten you about the BT tank checkpoint so that from now on, without knowing the history of the BT tank, you won’t write a crap.
                        In 35g, a new M-17 engine was put in the BT tank and the tank became known as BT-7 mod. 1935 The checkpoint, while remaining old, with the BT-5, 4-speed. After a short time, mass complaints began to come from the troops about the unreliability of the old checkpoint. The squabbles who were to blame were not long in those days: they shot the chief of the design bureau Firsov and even repressed some of them.
                        The bottom line was the increased moment of the M-17, from which the old checkpoint quickly fell apart.
                        Those who remained at large quickly redesigned the checkpoint, reducing the moment on the promwhale and at the same time making it three-stage. There really was a dopbonus in the form of a lack of a pair of gears, but the main thing was that due to the oversized engine for a tank of such weight, it was possible to do with only three forward gears. Those. in second gear, it was possible to fight, almost without switching, adjusting the speed at the expense of the gas (hello to the T-34 mechanics, who removed the speed control on the B-2 and were fighting in one second gear). At the same time, the first gear was traction, and the third, "high-speed".
                      3. 0
                        13 March 2019 17: 17
                        Not pigs, but geese! They forgot - to know YOUR sclerosis - GOOD Fellow!
                      4. 0
                        14 March 2019 17: 09
                        Quote: hohol95
                        Not pigs, but geese! They forgot - to know YOUR sclerosis - GOOD Fellow!

                        It’s good that there weren’t sheep, but I can’t remember something and geese, because there was nothing of this. So which of us has sclerosis and crazy fantasies?
                      5. 0
                        15 March 2019 08: 07
                        So which of us has sclerosis and crazy fantasies?

                        Before your fantastic imagination - the T-34 is a tower self-propelled gun, my imagination is still to develop and develop.
                        From your "narration" it follows that the BT-7 tanks had no reverse speed at all! And that means they could not move back without turning the whole car. For this, the designers had to be sent to the "match factories".
                      6. -1
                        15 March 2019 10: 44
                        [/ quote] Before your fantastic imagination - the T-34 is a tower self-propelled gun, my imagination is still to develop and develop. [quote]


                        You can call the T-34-76 not a turret ACS, but a deaf-blind-mute tank, the essence will remain the same: it did not pull the T-34-76 for a rank, it is a full-fledged tank. The T-34-85 (with the ZIS-S-53 cannon) held the title of "tank", although it had bulletproof armor.
                        And on BT, - you simply are not aware of special terms, therefore, you have BT-7 and does not have reverse speed.
                      7. 0
                        15 March 2019 14: 40
                        Based on your conclusions - the French Republic had no tanks at all! And only one deaf-blind self-propelled gun ... So you "drive the French designers under the plinth".
                      8. +2
                        15 March 2019 17: 17
                        Quote: hohol95
                        Based on your conclusions - the French Republic did not have tanks at all! But only one deaf-mute self-propelled guns.

                        Basically this is true.
                        French tanks with single towers really were more or less analogues of Matilda 1. They are good in millimeters, bad as a deep operations machine. There is an opinion that the same Char B1, when applied as a StuG, would be right here very much in the subject, but as a tank - some kind of muddy canoe.
                      9. 0
                        15 March 2019 22: 50
                        So write your MINDS on the FRENCH website - and tell us about the THOUGHTS of the French in your letters!
                        The Swedes created the Crazy Strv 103 car and considered it a TANK! And they spat with the Eiffel bell tower on the opinions of those who disagree!
                        And during WWII, they sold bearings to the Germans and the British (the shavers chased small vessels after them)!
                        And the origin of MONEY did not bother them at all!
                      10. 0
                        15 March 2019 23: 17
                        And write to the British on the occasion of "Matilda I" - they say this is not a tank, but a TANKETTE with a tower! Confuse the Americans with the concept of SPGs about the M3 "Lee / Grand" "average"!
                        Hungarians about their "Turan", and the Italians generally roll under the leveling mixture about their NEDO-tanks!
                        That everyone is so bursting on Russian-language sites to HAVE RUSSIAN equipment!
                        Go to foreign sites - and get a portion of "PIPERADES" ...
                      11. +1
                        16 March 2019 12: 21
                        Quote: hohol95
                        The Swedes created the Crazy Strv 103 machine and considered it a TANK

                        Why go so far? The turtles known in wide circles - T95 and Tortois - were also called tanks, EMNIP. So what?
                        Quote: hohol95
                        HAVE RUSSIAN equipment!

                        Why so much foam?

                        Firstly, the Kharkov tank was not a Russian capsule and not a Ukrainian one, but a Soviet one.

                        Secondly, I do not see anything offensive in correctly identifying the tactical niche of the machine. The early T-34 was an exemplary analogue of Valentin KS or Matilda KS, somewhat progressive, somewhat archaic. Due to its illiteracy and poverty, it was used in large mechanized units (first corps, then brigades) as a cruising tank, which it was in terms of power / weight, but not in terms of performance. Alteration of the T-34 for cruising tasks was carried out in the 43rd year, when the tank commander appeared, and the chassis and engine began to withstand marches without having to get out and twist something at every turn.
                      12. 0
                        16 March 2019 04: 37
                        Quote: hohol95
                        Based on your conclusions - the French Republic had no tanks at all! And only one deaf-blind self-propelled gun ... So you "drive the French designers under the plinth".


                        There are categories such as time and combat weight.

                        What was a tank in 1936 was no longer a full-fledged tank in 1941. And you can’t require a tank of 12 tons in weight, a triple tower and strong reservation at the same time. BUT, again, in 1940, the T-50 was also required to book a triple tower and weight not exceeding 14 tons.
                        Moreover, a full-fledged tank, weighing more than 25 tons, at the end of 1940, was obliged to have a three-man turret and good armor and a 3 "cannon. If the main parameter (ref. To-r) was not achieved, then the tank turned into a surrogate (or a turret ACS) and when used on the battlefield as a full-fledged tank, it suffered catastrophic losses due to inferiority.
                        The Frankovsky self-propelled guns were not (except V-1V), they were from a different time and in a different weight category.
                        But the Swedish and Amer perverts do not need to be pulled in, for that they are perverts.
                      13. +2
                        16 March 2019 14: 02
                        Quote: Jura 27
                        amerskie perverts

                        Why "perverts" at once? M3 is a tank that was made by people who had never heard of tanks, with which they wrote 5 numbers on their palm with a felt-tip pen: 3 inches - gun, 2 inches - armor, 10 hp / t - power, 1-year, 1000 vehicles per month. The last two numbers are in red felt-tip pen.

                        M4 is M3, when the same people were explained in more detail what a tank is.
                      14. -1
                        16 March 2019 16: 37
                        [/ quote] Why immediately "perverted"? M3 is a tank that was made by people who had never heard of tanks, with which they wrote 5 numbers on their palm with a felt-tip pen: 3 inches - gun, 2 inches - armor, 10 hp / t - power, 1-year, 1000 vehicles per month. The last two digits with a red felt-tip pen. [Quote]


                        It is possible about perverts and so to speak. The essence does not change.
                      15. +1
                        13 March 2019 18: 28
                        what prevented the plant from producing 4-speed gearboxes for BT-7 tanks

                        Unnecessary - in BT, and so in general, wild power to weight (more than 29ls / t) I recall that the T-34 (40g) has 18,8ls / t, and the post-war T-54 generally has more than 2 times less (14,4ls / t )
                        It would be better there would be an engine of less power (not so gluttonous) but ...
                  2. +2
                    12 March 2019 17: 26
                    And yet, why did Grabin’s design bureau not shamefully work together with technologists of serial production, and Koshkin / Morozov, judging by the technology, the technologist, if he had one, was from an experimental workshop?

                    And why did the Grabin Design Bureau not bother with the modernization of the weapons of the T-34 tanks? How was the F-34 so it remained until 1944! And no changes to improve the performance of the gun!
                    1. 0
                      12 March 2019 19: 00
                      Quote: hohol95
                      And why did the Grabin Design Bureau not bother with the modernization of the weapons of the T-34 tanks?

                      In 1942 there was no fat — the front demanded not to reduce production. In addition, the country did not have the opportunity to organize the mass production of 85 mm rounds.
                      Work on the 85 mm cannon was started in 1943.
                      And, by the way, the modernization of the weapons of the T-34 tanks should not be carried out by the design bureau on its own initiative, but by the GABTU. It was the GABTU that should issue the Design Bureau KB to a new tank gun.
                      Quote: hohol95
                      How was the F-34 so it remained until 1944! And no changes to improve the performance of the gun!

                      And how to improve the gun without changing the shot? No one will give a new shot for modernization - war in the yard. And the only powerful shot in this caliber - the 76-mm anti-aircraft gun - has already been discontinued.
                      1. +1
                        13 March 2019 00: 10
                        In 1942 there was no fat — the front demanded not to reduce production. In addition, the country did not have the opportunity to organize the mass production of 85 mm rounds.

                        I don’t agree - maybe Grabin’s design bureau received data on new modifications of German tanks with reinforced armor “scratching the back of the head and the fifth point” to improve the characteristics of the F-34 to the level of the F-22!
                        The medium tanks Pz.III of modifications L, M, and N interested Soviet specialists from the People's Commissariat for Ammunition primarily in the design of the frontal armor of the hull and turret. They reasonably suggested that it would be a serious obstacle to domestic armor-piercing shells, since “... the front sheet of high-hardness armor with a thickness of about 20 mm is installed with a significant gap relative to the main armor with a thickness of 52 mm ... Thus, the front sheet will serve as a“ cocking armor ”, from the impact of which the head of the armor-piercing projectile will partially collapse and a bottom fuse will be cocked so that the detonation of explosives can take place even before breaking through the main armor of the turret box ... Thus, with the total thickness of the front armor of the turret box of the T-3 tank 70–75 mm, this two-layer barrier can be impervious to most armor-piercing chamber munitions equipped with an MD fuse -2 ".

                        This assumption was confirmed during tests at the Sverdlovsk test site, when of three shells fired from an 85-mm 52K anti-aircraft gun and two from a 122-mm hull gun A-19, the frontal armor of the German tank Pz.III did not penetrate. In this case, either a charge detonation occurred even before the armor of the turret box was pierced, or when a shell hit the main armor after passing through the screen, the shell was destroyed. Note - we are talking about 85– and 122-mm shells. What can I say about the 76 mm!

                        What was so urgent about Grabin and his people doing? This is after all the tools of their design bureau. And in addition to accompanying the production, they were obliged to carry out its modernization in response to the appearance of tanks with thicker armor at the Wehrmacht!
                      2. 0
                        13 March 2019 12: 36
                        Quote: hohol95
                        I don’t agree - maybe Grabin’s design bureau received data on new modifications of German tanks with reinforced armor “scratching the back of the head and the fifth point” to improve the characteristics of the F-34 to the level of the F-22!

                        Once again - how to improve the gun without changing the shot? No one will give a new shot for modernization - war in the yard. And the only powerful shot in this caliber - the 76-mm anti-aircraft gun - has already been discontinued.
                        Quote: hohol95
                        This assumption was confirmed during tests at the Sverdlovsk test site, when of three shells fired from an 85-mm 52K anti-aircraft gun and two from a 122-mm hull gun A-19, the frontal armor of the German tank Pz.III did not penetrate.

                        Heh heh heh ...
                        I have reason for such doubts. The study of these screens was in NII-48, only there is not a word about A-19 or 52-K. It would seem.
                        © Y. Pasholok
                        Quote: hohol95
                        And in addition to accompanying the production, they were obliged to carry out its modernization in response to the appearance of tanks with thicker armor at the Wehrmacht!

                        Once again, we read the basic order for the use of BTT and BTV - Order No. 325. The task of the tank - the fight against infantry.
                        ТAnki do not fulfill their main task of destroying enemy infantry, and distracted by the battle with the tanks and artillery of the enemy. The established practice of opposing our enemy tanks with tank attacks and getting involved in tank battles is wrong and harmful.
                      3. +1
                        13 March 2019 12: 51
                        Order No. 325. The task of the tank - the fight against infantry.

                        Not having enough anti-tank weapons, especially highly mobile ones, capable of fighting on equal terms with the Wehrmacht’s BTT, our big ranks from the Armored Forces Directorate doomed tank crews to death! In the German infantry there were many anti-tank guns that were never completely suppressed during artillery preparation due to a lack of shells and the guns themselves! So they decided that the tank is a cart with a divisional three-inch to support the infantry!
                      4. 0
                        14 March 2019 08: 39
                        Based on the order number 325 all those involved in the counterattack on the southern face of the Kursk Bulge should be brought to justice? After all, they deliberately threw a tank army into battle against enemy tanks. And the Soviet tank crews suffered heavy losses. What guided the authorities, headed by Vatutin? Tanks don’t fight with tanks ... But the Germans didn’t know about it!
  26. 0
    12 March 2019 17: 06
    Interesting article.
  27. +2
    13 March 2019 07: 28
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Quote: glory1974
    The overly complex design of German tanks did not allow to increase the number of vehicles.

    Who told you that the design of German tanks was unnecessarily complicated, while Soviet tanks were not unnecessarily?

    there are figures of the labor intensity of products in standard hours and human hours (which is more reasonable for comparison than the abstract price): the labor intensity of a tiger is 300000, panther -150000, hatzer -35000, t-34 - from 5200 to 17600
    1. +1
      13 March 2019 11: 56
      Yes, there are such numbers on the Internet. They cause quite moderate confidence, since the laboriousness of German cars in watches is surprisingly similar to their price in brands.
    2. 0
      13 March 2019 20: 09
      and 5200 - is it just an assembly at the head plant or a miner who digs ore also counted?
      1. 0
        13 March 2019 20: 24
        Well, where did the Germans mine ore?
        1. 0
          13 March 2019 20: 27
          If about the Tiger, then in human hours from 126371 to 131424, probably)
          I just used to read lectures sometimes about financing at the State Defense Order, so I couldn't help but poke fun)
  28. 0
    13 March 2019 09: 52
    Quote: hohol95
    I don’t agree - maybe Grabin’s design bureau received data on new modifications of German tanks with reinforced armor “scratching the back of the head and the fifth point” to improve the characteristics of the F-34 to the level of the F-22!

    How to improve without using new ammunition? Why improve if the main striking "element" of enemy tanks, according to the leadership of the Red Army, is artillery? Where to get financing for improvement if there is no order from the military? What characteristics should you strive for if there is no data from the Customer? What if at the time of the adoption of the new artillery system "brought to the level of the F-22" it will become outdated ... or the "carrier" will be discontinued. Grabin is not a clairvoyant, but a designer.

    Quote: hohol95
    This is after all the tools of their design bureau. And in addition to accompanying the production, they were obliged to carry out its modernization in response to the appearance of tanks with thicker armor at the Wehrmacht!

    What makes you think that Grabin was obliged? Is he a free artist? In response to the appearance of tanks with thicker armor in the Wehrmacht, Grabin’s design bureau was already 3 years old as a 57mm anti-tank gun was created.
  29. +1
    13 March 2019 16: 33
    The discussion again shifted from the T-34 to the "decisive role" of the allies in the war. Here are my thoughts on this discussion:
    1. With or without a Lendlis machine, the USSR could produce tanks and self-propelled guns in sufficient quantities and with the required quality.
    2. The USSR imported about 20% of the necessary machine tools because it did not beat the time to make up the inherited gap from pre-revolutionary Russia, which imported 80% of the machine tools.
    3. The turning-carousel theory of the decisive role of land-lease is absolutely untenable like other similar theories (locomotive, aviation gasoline, ammunition, etc.)
    4. Germany could not be saved from the inevitable defeat in the East and if no Western allies of the USSR were beaten. The proof is not hard to find - the war in Korea 1950-53. For example, the very successful offensive of the KPA and KND in the winter of 1950-51 took place with the absolute superiority of the United States in air, at sea, in tanks and heavy artillery. The heaviest weapons of the attackers were hit by a 120 mm mortar and they used an order of magnitude smaller amount of ammunition and fuel than the running US army. With children, the casualties were about the same.
    Germany could not even dream of such superiority in the East.
    1. -1
      13 March 2019 18: 37
      Quote: Kostadinov
      KPA and KND in the winter of 1950-51 ... With children, the casualties were about the same.

      Oh my goodness
      Quote: Kostadinov
      and if no Western allies of the USSR were beaten. The evidence is easy to find - the Korean War 1950-53

      Fans of the USSR do not appreciate how comrade Stalin was lucky with the presidents of the United States, they do not appreciate at all.
      1. 0
        14 March 2019 14: 40
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        KPA and KND in the winter of 1950-51 ... With children, the casualties were about the same.

        Oh my goodness

        God did his job in Korea as it should - thank God.
        Quote: Kostadinov
        and if no Western allies of the USSR were beaten. The evidence is easy to find - the Korean War 1950-53

        Fans of the USSR do not appreciate how comrade Stalin was lucky with the presidents of the United States, they do not appreciate at all.

        We appreciate respecting all the allies of Comrade Stalin and the President of the United States and Churchill and De Gaulle and Chiang Kai-shek. But they (allies) were even more lucky with Comrade Stalin. And they understood very well.
  30. +3
    13 March 2019 18: 22
    For which I respect Andrei Chelyabinsky (in addition to the professional approach itself), that he always admits his mistakes, a rare quality.
    With regards to the cycle, everything is as always). Of course, “betrayal” to the fleet is indignant, but, well, forgive Andrey)
    Sincerely.
    1. -2
      13 March 2019 19: 56
      Surprised - I see the exact opposite belay
      1. 0
        13 March 2019 23: 38
        Everyone sees what he wants.
        1. 0
          14 March 2019 17: 57
          Only truth is one.
  31. 0
    16 March 2019 08: 30
    Quote: frog
    How exactly the same problem is solved on the tank?

    Here in the discussions there is a constant substitution of concepts. A boring machine is when a part is not movable and the spindle rotates. To process the case, you need a machine with a large overhang of the stand (trunk) of the machine on which the caliper with a rotating spindle is placed. Sometimes such machines are called radial boring machines.
  32. 0
    17 March 2019 08: 27
    destroyed German tanks PANZER 4
    1. 0
      17 March 2019 08: 45
      destroyed German tanks T5 Panther
      1. 0
        17 March 2019 08: 50
        destroyed German tanks T6 TIGER + TIGER 2
  33. 0
    4 May 2019 08: 41
    I already wrote once and can repeat it. Radio communication!. Once I read the memoirs of a German general (I don’t remember my name). It was written in these memoirs that literally on the eve of the outbreak of war sabotage groups were sent to our rear for the sole purpose of cut telephone lines of communication. What losses have suffered due to the lack of good communication - now it’s already impossible to calculate